November 14, 2024 • 33 mins
Roxanne Derhodge introduces Dr. Shahana, who shares her personal mental health journey and emphasizes the ongoing nature of mental health challenges. They discuss the pressures and stigma associated with mental health in professional fields, and the importance of teaching children and adolescents about emotional bandwidth, autonomy, and control. Dr. Shahana talks about her book "Feel Better" and her TEDx talk, offering insights for senior leaders on promoting team well-being. The episode concludes with Dr. Shahana's contact information, book details, Roxanne's closing thoughts, and a quiz promotion.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, aplace where we have conscious conversations
about things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
(00:40):
Hi, everyone.
It's Roxanne Duro Hodge.
Thanks for tuning in again to Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
So today I have a colleague that, we sharesimilar backgrounds, but we come at it at a
different angle.
Doctor Shahana is a medical doctor that,specializes around areas about mental
well-being and mental health and does a lot ofthings out on the west end of Canada related to
(01:04):
mental health with families and individuals.
So, doctor Chana, thanks, for coming in againto today to spend some time with us.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
So tell us a little bit about kind of yourforay into kind of dealing with mental health.
Obviously, you're bringing a medicalbackground.
What got you on that trajectory to want to gomore into mental health?
(01:27):
When you look at one of the logos that I have,it says doctor, speaker, mother.
And that is almost like this bio right in yourface of why mental health is important to me,
but I always show a slide that has patientright at the bottom corner of that.
And the honest answer to your question isreally it wasn't until the birth of my first
(01:48):
son about 9 years ago that I myself wentthrough postpartum anxiety and OCD and
depression and on that mental health didn'tbecome a you problem.
It didn't become something that I was justadvocating for you, helping you.
It became a very real me problem.
And I think until things really pinch and Ithink until really you feel the depths of the
(02:13):
despair and really understanding how this isimpacting not just your life, but your family's
life and your child's life, does this becomeall too important to say how did I get here?
And that was the instrumental question after 12years of studying, after studying kinesiology,
nutrition, medicine obviously, I realized I hadlearned a lot about disease, a lot about
(02:35):
illness, but nothing about true mental andemotional health too.
So it was like anything else, me search, tryingto figure out how to help me through this, and
then realizing patient after patient, clientafter client, that the problems are very
similar that we're facing too.
It wasn't until I gave my TEDx talk a few yearsago that I really realized that I'd really been
(02:59):
a hypocrite when I came to mental health.
It was really about it would it was the ideabeing I was too privileged, I was too educated,
I was too fill in the blank to ever haveanything or to suffer with mental health, And
it was on that stage that I kind of came cleanwith regards to all of that too.
So it's been a humbling journey.
It's been a transformative journey, and it'sbeen an ongoing journey.
(03:23):
I always joke that mental health is not a rash,give it a cream and it goes away.
Right?
I wish it was.
For many of us, myself included, it is ongoing.
Some days are better than others.
Sometimes you're triggered more than others.
So I think the ongoing nature of it, hopefully,I can speak to what that resilience actually
(03:45):
feels like.
And sometimes when you feel down in the dumps,that's okay too.
So I think of your training.
Right?
We think of the OMA and kind of going throughmedical school.
Mhmm.
And some of my best friends, one's a pediatricsurgeon, the other one's an ophthalmologist.
They we were all with the brats of the ninetiesfrom the Caribbean.
So I came to Canada, one one to Ireland, andthe other one to England.
(04:06):
And I literally remember us having thesemassive conversations because they would have
these wicked days, like 16, 18 hour days.
Yeah.
And then I'd be like, wow.
Like, how do you do it?
So it's interesting Mhmm.
That even though you've gone through thistraining, like you said, you got through it
somehow.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
And how did you get through it and be able toobviously, you applied certain things back
(04:31):
then.
Mhmm.
Mhmm.
But it didn't hit you, like you said, until youactually had your first child.
Completely.
And I think as you probably can speak to aswell, like, mental health doesn't happen in a
silo.
Right?
For me, to be the truth was that all of thiswas grumbling along in the background for a
very long period of time.
It just becomes what is the straw that breaksthe camel's back?
What is that thing that really that you can'tignore it anymore?
(04:56):
We always like to think that we can suppressour emotions, deny our emotions, but I always
joke, eventually, they will come and find you.
And the postpartum period just happens to beone of the most, quote, fertile periods to
really say that this is when things are goingto uproot and you're going to you better pay
attention to them.
So I think if you look at the population inmedical school, it's a self selected population
(05:20):
of those people who really value, I'll behonest, prestige, perfectionism, they fear
rejection.
Right?
All of that stuff.
If you really surveyed everybody, they're gonnarate really high on that, and it's no wonder
the rates of not just mental illness, butsuicidality is much higher in those types of
professional career choices too.
(05:41):
So it's coming for you somewhere, and it's justwhere is that breaking point.
I just found medical school was a great it itkept me so mentally distracted from everything.
I could just immerse myself in that, but itwasn't very emotionally distracting.
The biggest the hardest piece for me is when Ihad a baby.
That was the biggest emotional load that Icouldn't study my way out of this.
(06:06):
I couldn't rely on a textbook for this anymore.
There was no right way to parent, and I waslooking for that in a very black and white way.
And I think that for me was the topplingfactor.
It's the gray.
Right?
And I had my son a little bit later.
And likewise with you, I had done the bit andwas a psychologist, and I I was in corporate
(06:26):
consulting.
And then I had this little thing, and Ithought, I I don't have any control.
Yeah.
The ultimate space, like, you shared, like,where you kinda go, wow, when you speak to your
older family and say, what was it really like?
And then you're realizing the importance ofwhat exists in some of the eastern cultures
Yes.
Yes.
(06:47):
Where you kinda go to now it's the doulas ofthe world, which is the emotional well-being of
the parents, or even my mom came and stayedwith me for a month.
Well, that's very cultural as well because alot of nuclear families in North America, it's
it's it's kinda not they they don't have thatkind of net to help them through.
So it's interesting that you'd say that thatwas when it was like, woah.
(07:10):
Not black, not white, not e, not e, not f.
Exactly.
And then
everything in between.
And I think the other piece was that being aperson who had a profession, who looked to be
all good from the outside, that actually makesyou more susceptible.
That actually makes you more fragile in someways because you were that much less likely to
(07:32):
ask for help.
So I know a lot of professional folks might belistening to this podcast, and there's still
whether you like it or not, there still is thatstigma that meant if you even admit that you
are an anxiety is a symptom and not necessarilyas a diagnosis.
Right?
We have to be very clear on that too.
But even if you are having any shadows orstate, you know, feelings of that, there still
(07:54):
is that stigma that that means that you're weakor you need to try harder or as my family loves
to say, snap out of it.
And that's kind of the the trademark sayinggrowing up or just snap out of it.
I'm like, it's not a button.
There's nothing to really snap on or off.
Right?
So I think the entire thing is that if we onlyunderstood the the psychological principle of
(08:16):
the beautiful mess effect, which is really ifyou already know and like and trust me as a
physician, as a colleague, and if I am humbleenough to admit the realities of what I was
going through, you don't know and trust meless.
You actually know and trust me more.
And that's the biggest misnomer that we havethat we think that if we share our real truth,
if we are authentic, it feels like it's gonnabe too much.
(08:39):
In fact, people lean in, and we all need tostart leaning in just a little bit more because
the world has just become way too fake and muchtoo polarized.
That's interesting that you'd say that.
Right?
Like, when you think about levels oforganization and I was just doing I think when
we chatted, I was do I was about to do sometraining in a with a company in Toronto.
(08:59):
And one was just middle managers, and the othersecond one, there was a couple of senior
managers.
Okay.
And it was interesting that in this particularcompany that you could see the difference in
that middle managers who were all of the samelevel were open, first of all.
But when you cross pollinated between upper andmiddle, I could see this I could feel it.
(09:23):
I could feel it.
I was like, wow.
The first one, they were open.
They were sharing.
And this is a really progressive company thatreally promotes trust and openness and respect
and that shoulders to shoulder management.
But the cross pollinating in the secondtraining of that day, they it was a I I almost
felt like it got packaged in a way becausesenior management was in the in the room.
(09:47):
Yes.
Yes.
You know, which is so unfortunate.
Exactly.
And we almost become more buttoned up thehigher that we we climb up onto those higher
echelons of whatever you wanna call it,management status.
And I think that does the biggest disservicebecause we all know that actually building true
psychological safety in our teams have to startfrom the top and has to start from the
(10:07):
vulnerability of our leaders.
And vulnerability, of course, takes that amountof courage too.
So we just we do this in our young I've got 3young boys like we've shared before too, and we
do this in our in teaching our young kids aswell.
Right?
Oh, be strong, but don't cry.
Like, there's always these mixed messages ofyou're supposed to do this, but actually, no.
Don't do that too.
(10:28):
And when do we have a bigger emotionalbandwidth to say, actually, there's room for
all of it?
And that doesn't mean that you are that.
That if you're angry or frustrated or fill inthe blank, you are not an angry person.
You are not an envious person.
You just feel that way for that period of time.
Right.
And I think it's as basic as fundamentally Ithink of when my son was growing.
(10:51):
And, of course, I grew up with girls, so now Ihave a boy, and then I'm like, oh my goodness.
What am I gonna do?
But then I what I realized was I became thereflective lens of how connected he was to
himself.
And I'll give you an ex this is a funny littleexample.
Right?
So, of course, I grew up in Trinidad.
They play cricket and rounders and netball.
Yeah.
And I come to Canada, and everybody playshockey.
(11:13):
So, of course, what's the logical path Trinidadand how Canadian child gonna do?
He's gonna and he's a a beautiful naturedchild, but you could see the switch as soon as
he started once he got into the context of whatwould the expectations were on the ice.
He was kind and loving and gentle.
And then when he got on the ice, he it's almostlike he had to cut it off to be in charge, in
(11:35):
control, and showing no emotion.
So you could see how young boys, especially,which I think we men, we want them to protect,
but we also want them to be vulnerable.
Yes.
And it it's such a I often say it's such agreat space for them because where do they get
the role models?
They might they have to obviously learn it fromfathers Correct.
Which they have been reared in a different way,but also moms that have to learn that, okay, we
(11:59):
can teach them to be vulnerable, but they alsohave to be protective enough to be able to go
out there and and deal with the hockey kindarinks of the world and the locker rooms and
kind of being there and being a protectiveelement if they go on to have their families as
well.
Completely.
Yeah.
No.
That's such a good point too, and it's funnythat you mentioned that my kids are just
starting to play hockey as well.
And I think, yeah, there's a lot of of what'sset on the sidelines of what and we don't
(12:24):
understand how much they actually soak in andtake in at such a young age too.
But the message, I think, really being that Ialways joke with my patients saying that for me
to write a prescription for you takes hardlyany time.
It takes, like, a second or 2 seconds to justsigning my name on the bottom of a prescription
pad.
That is not the problem.
(12:44):
The problem or the question becomes, whatbrings you here and what brings you here now?
And trying to understand the story and thetrajectory of your life that has really led up
to this.
And the more and more I've thought about it isthat as a physician, as even a psychologist, we
have privy of seeing the entire mental healthpicture, whether it be anxiety, depression,
(13:06):
insomnia, chronic stress, the list goes on andon.
But every single pixel that makes up thatpicture has been the tens of 100 of 1000 of
opportunities we've all had to understand ouremotions and why we've reacted in certain ways
and what your emotions are trying to tell us.
See, I think emotions were just something thatI knew when I grew up, it was just supposed to
(13:29):
be glossed over and gleaned over.
It was not nothing to really pay attention to.
But if we start to think of our emotions like acompass and trying to point you in the
direction of what you actually value and careabout, This is the kind of work I'm trying to
do with the adolescents I see now to take ourconversations and to move it into something
more meaningful.
(13:51):
So the pressures are obviously, like I said,starts very young with us, be be the boy or
girl or whatever.
And into adolescence, the pressure becomes nowhow do I how do I function?
How do I, you know, like, separate ordeindividuate, like we call it in the in the
clinical world, and learned that I'm gonna beokay on my own
(14:13):
Yes.
Yes.
Without, you know, the dependence of, I wantmom and dad to take care of it, but I'm scared
out of my mind.
But I wanna belong.
Plus, I wanna know that potentially I caneventually go out there and not have to run
back home kind of thing.
Correct.
There's a lot more pressures.
So I'm just curious with when when we talkabout authenticity, and I know you talk a lot
(14:34):
about that and I do as well.
Yes.
What
do you find the biggest pressures are foradolescents today about of being authentic?
I think we haven't really given them the spaceto know what that even means.
Their world is so bombarded.
Like, if you ask an adolescent, when's the lasttime you were quiet?
(14:55):
Just quiet.
I'm not saying meditate.
I'm not saying anything like that.
Just quiet.
They'll look at you as if in
no way You've got a 3rd eye.
Exactly.
But why?
I was gonna think that as if you're highbecause most of the time, they're like, sorry.
What?
So the concept is a foreign concept and, like,authentic to what?
Right?
(15:15):
Because authentic to the group I'm part oftoday, the boyfriend I'm dating tomorrow, the
it's just such a fluid concept that I thinkit's imperative, and it's it's hard for me to
even say that upon coaches, teachers, doctors,psychologists, that we actually use some of
what they are saying as clues.
(15:35):
Like, a great example I'll give you is that Iwas seeing a 16 year old patient not that long
ago, and she was making some reallyinappropriate decisions, like decisions that
could seriously impact her health, maybepossibly cause run ins with the law, those
types of things.
And she didn't think anything of that, but Iwas using our report to help her reframe some
of the decisions you possibly could make.
(15:57):
And all of a sudden, out of the corner of myeye, I see a spider, and I'm terrified of
spiders.
And here she is opening up to me really havinga deep conversation, and I can't concentrate on
her at all because all I can see is a spider.
So she looks at me and says, can I take care ofthat for you?
I said, of course.
That'd that'd be amazing.
Thank you.
Grab a Kleenex.
And she points her finger directly in my faceand says, I don't kill things.
(16:20):
Give me a cup.
Wow.
Okay.
I'm not used to having a youth point it in myface, but fine.
Got her a little cup.
She takes the spider.
Spider goes off on his merry way.
She comes back inside.
And here I was with this dilemma of makingreally inappropriate serious repercussion types
of decisions on one hand and yet so committedto life, human animal life on the other hand.
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And I just couldn't get I couldn't make senseof it, but I couldn't ignore it.
So I just called her out on it.
I said, I'm really I said, I it would have beenno skin off my nose if you'd crushed that
spider.
Like, I wouldn't have thought anything of it.
And she said, well, I really I've become avegan.
I wanna become a vegetarian.
I wanna become a veterinary assistant.
I'm saving up money to get a cat.
She could see how much she loved and her heartwas in service of animals.
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So then I told her something.
I said, if you continue down this road, youwill sacrifice this.
Right?
If you continue making these decisions, whatyou value.
So my job as an educator, a physician, was toshine a spotlight on what she valued with that
simple action of taking the spider and savinghis life versus the alternate too.
(17:30):
That's where the that's where the authenticityhappens.
But until someone takes a big flashlight andshines it in their face, a lot of the times, it
just goes it passes you by.
It passes you by.
So I think yeah.
That's it.
So interesting.
Right?
Because I think, generally, what is it?
Every patient gets 6 minutes of physician'stime.
(17:51):
Right?
And which
It's bonkers.
Yep.
Yeah.
It is bonkers.
Right?
Because when I would say, to people, well, weneed to we need to let you see your physician.
And if new clients come to me, they're like,the first thing it would say is, can you
prescribe me something?
And I go, what what do you wanna be to pres I'manxious.
Give me something to calm down.
Okay.
I'm depressed, and I'm like, oh, okay.
(18:13):
So I will say to them, so here's the deal.
First of all, we're just here to try tounderstand whatever the I'm not sleeping.
What let's use that as an example.
And then, eventually, like you, I'll jokearound and say, I can you know, if you think I
I can write a prescription, I said, this iswhat's gonna happen.
Just this place is true with I write somethingout, and you go out, and you do it my way for 2
(18:34):
weeks.
And you're gonna kinda like me the first maybeweek and a half.
And the second week latter part of the secondweek, you're gonna fall down.
You're gonna bump your nose based on whatever Itold you to do.
And then you're gonna come back in here andyou're gonna be pissed off at me, and then they
look at me.
Go, really?
I go, generally, that's what I see.
Or we try to get to understand the frame thatyou're talking about, Johan, which is what's
(18:58):
really important to you.
Right?
And then they go, oh, okay.
Maybe we'll try that kind of thing.
Because I think you're right.
People, individuals, even we're talking aboutthat in our case.
But when I'm coaching even, individuals, when Isay, but what do you value?
They go, what do I value?
What do you mean?
What do you mean exactly?
(19:18):
I said, are you kind of you know, when we'retalking about coaching or, you know, making
decisions at work, are you living in alignmentwith your value?
And oftentimes, they haven't slowed down longenough to say, I think I am, but I don't know
if I've thought about it lately.
Totally.
Completely.
Right?
And we ask ourselves the same question.
(19:39):
Right?
It sounds like such a great question, but thebest way I find to approach values is honestly
what pisses you off?
What makes you really angry?
Because people can get on board with thatbecause to find what gets you angry often is
something that is trying to speak to you,Right?
But asking someone the alternate that what doyou really care about and value, they I think
(20:01):
we say, oh, I value family, and I value all theesoteric things that people always say.
But especially in adolescence, the pissing youoff question, and even adults works really
well.
I think then the idea being that there is and,of course, I speak to adolescents, but there is
a life outside the walls of high school if andwhen you graduate.
Right?
There is a whole big beautiful life waiting foryou, and the decisions you make today obviously
(20:25):
will have repercussions later on.
But at the same time, you have the autonomy,right, to choose what that is going to look
like as well, independent of the influencesthat you have chosen, good, bad, or otherwise.
Right?
So I think bringing these elements into theconversation has certainly taught me so much
because I've realized just like you, when youhave to ask yourself those questions, sometimes
(20:48):
I fall flat as well.
Right.
And and then context wise too, like, so you'resaying, what's the narrative?
Like, what are they coming from?
What circumstances have they been through underage 5?
I'm gonna assume you probably do things likeACEs and stuff like that.
Yeah.
If they're coming to you as an adolescent andyou're supporting them and caring for them Yes.
But you're putting them back into the pepperpots of uncertainty, then that child or
(21:12):
adolescent may be adaptive to the environmentthey're in and trying to find that one little
vein that you maybe can tap into them to saythat you have you have the ability to do
something different even though you may begoing back into a tough situation as well.
Completely.
Completely.
One of the biggest phrases that now I say to mykids and a youth coined this, and it doesn't
(21:35):
the acronym doesn't quite make sense, but it'scalled WCLIC, which basically stands, what can
I control?
WCIC, what can I control?
And the youth love this, and one of the youthmade it up, but it was she opened out to me.
She was 14, and mom's an alcoholic.
Stepfather's in and out of the house.
It's not a great environment at home.
(21:56):
Right.
That's right.
And she had to learn she said from the age of 4or 5, what can I control?
I can't control all of this havoc.
I wanna get out of the house eventually.
But then we looked at her list, and it wasshe's doing great at school.
She's showing up for class.
She's handing in her assignments.
And, yes, we're talking about adolescence, butthis also applies to adults too.
(22:17):
Sometimes, especially in a very unpredictableworld as we're entering too, we have to keep
remembering what can I control right nowinstead of always wanting to predict the
future, which is our stories are meet our mindsare meaning makers?
We're constantly making meaning of a situation.
Right?
But if you focus on the here and now and what Ican do in this very moment, I think that if I
(22:40):
could give that to every adolescent and everyadult including myself, that is one of the most
powerful things that we can take away.
Now you've written a book, and, it's calledfeel better.
That's right.
Yeah.
Release.
So tell us a little bit about that, and I knowyou, also speak as a keynote speaker as well.
Tell us a little bit about the book and a bitabout your speaking so that anybody that's
(23:04):
listening and that's interested in the topicwould understand what you're kind of doing out
there.
No.
Of course.
The the premise
of the book came because I would ask youthoften, do you care about yourself?
Not even love yourself.
I'm not gonna go there.
I just said care about yourself.
And over and over and over again, without theseyouth communicating with each other, I get the
same reply.
(23:24):
I express like, kind of swear word swear wordswear word hate myself.
And it was always the same version of the sameanswer, And that's what the book is built on.
The idea that if we wanna talk about selfawareness, which is really the bedrock of
emotional literacy and something that we alllove to talk about because just like
psychological safety, it's become a buzzword.
(23:45):
How can you become self aware if you don't havean iota of self acknowledgment or inner
acknowledgment if you feel like that's a betterphrase too?
And how how does one build a betterself-concept, especially if you've had adverse
childhood experiences or if you've had thingsthat were possibly out of your control.
So it's very tangible.
So it starts with self acknowledgement, crossesthe bridge to self awareness, and then leads to
(24:09):
self compassion.
That is the arc of the book too.
But the book is filled with obviously anonymousbut real life patient stories.
Right?
A cumulative picture of patient stories of justlike the spider example to go, how do you take
one scenario and make it a story that hopefullyyou'll remember?
And many of us either have children or havekids or adolescents in our lives that we love
(24:33):
and care about.
So sometimes by reading the book for someoneelse, it's very rare.
I think women are the exception, but you'regonna pick up the book and say, I need help.
But But if you pick up the book and say someoneI love needs help, whatever else tends to
filter through is a bonus for you.
Right?
So it's really written for women between theages of 3550, but the ancillary benefit is
(24:57):
gonna hopefully help your kids as well.
Mhmm.
Absolute it's, we're in this world, and,obviously, you picked this world and I did too.
Even culturally at times, you know, you I wouldstart talking about things and people would say
and I'm in Trinidad and they might say, well,what do you mean about that?
And I'm like, well, we gotta think about whatwe're feeling, and are we expressing, and is
this in alignment with what you know, I oftensay the GPS in our tummies, it goes off and it
(25:22):
does it doesn't stop until you acknowledge it.
And then I think back.
Right?
Like, the things that I teach now compared towhat I grew up with.
In my high school, I think my parents werehaving difficulties, and they sent me to see
the school counselor who didn't even know whatto do with me because and I'm like, okay.
Well, this is poor.
I'm thinking back to when I was 16, and then Ithought, oh my goodness.
(25:43):
That was really bad.
That was just somebody to be there to call themthe the the title, but not really bad guys that
were saying, you know, to our little ones, whatare you feeling?
What's your tummy telling you?
If somebody makes you uncomfortable, use yourwords, talk.
We're we're starting because we have knowledge,say, from 40 years ago compared to now.
And you're right.
(26:03):
It's that self acknowledgment.
And you never know who's gonna help that ifthat child comes from adverse situations.
Yeah.
Like, it could be a teacher, could be a coach,it could be a friend's parents, those types of
things, but it's kinda starting to acknowledgethat.
And in the workplace, it plays out as well.
I often say that's a bigger version of asmaller sandbox.
Correct.
(26:23):
Correct.
Yeah.
You see it as it plays out, you know, when yousee the dynamics at work.
What is everybody looking for but safety withinthemselves?
And then people in the workplace, what are theydoing?
They're jabbing at them intentionally, notintentionally, unconsciously, and then we're
all supposed to really go out and do we'rewe're supposed to blend that new project and
get through all those things.
(26:44):
So that's where I find a lot of, resiliencecomes in into into question because are people
aware what they're doing to others?
Or sometimes if they're aware, are they willingto do anything about it?
Now in your speaking, tell us a little bitabout kind of where what kind of topics you
speak about and some of the other things thatyou do outside of your practice?
(27:08):
Oh, for sure.
Yeah.
So, you know, I was giving the TEDx talk in2019.
That was my first time being on stage, and Irealized this is what I wanted I want to do
more of.
Really, fortunately, that has led to speakingacross Canada.
The topics really have to center around what,obviously, I love to speak about today, which
is mental health and wellness too.
But I think one of the things I've learned isthat people find it really hard to talk about
(27:31):
mental health.
Right?
So when you reframe that as burnout managementor self care or resiliency or wellness or any
of those euphemisms, but to really for me, Iwanna be able to address the meat of the
subject, but sometimes you need to do it in away of talking about the positive or how how
can we communicate better better or how can weconnect better as a team.
(27:52):
Those are all various subjects that I've spokenabout too and now using the book as a lever to
pull and having a framework in the book of theacknowledgment, the self awareness, the
compassion, and looking at that triad, it helpsto bolster the talk that much more too.
But I think what hopefully sets my talks apartare the real life examples from the patients.
(28:14):
I think those are the ones I've attended manykeynote sessions, many breakout sessions.
I don't often remember the subject, but Iremember the stories.
Right?
So I think the more you can impact peoplethrough the type of stories you are, not making
your stories just an anecdote, but making yourstories really land with people and give them
some tools that they can take away.
(28:34):
Know, that's what I I endeavor to do.
So if you're a senior leader or or part of asenior team and you're thinking, how is it that
I kinda gauge what's around me?
What might be a couple of quick tips that youmight tell them to consider?
Yeah.
Yeah.
My favorite.
No.
For sure.
My favorite is the 2 word check-in in ameeting.
(28:55):
I do this all the time when I lead my meetingswith my staff as well too.
You go around the table.
The leader always has to go first too to setthe stage because if the leader says wonderful
and shiny, no one else is gonna really beauthentic to themselves.
But if the leader says I'm feeling distractedand irritable, you set the stage for the rest
of the group to say, in that moment, they cansay any words except fine or good.
(29:18):
Right?
Anything else is on the table.
I did that recently with a large company, andit was heartbreaking to see the types of
responses people were saying, but it also wasgratifying to see people weren't sugarcoating
what they were feeling too.
So that's a very, you know, low hanging fruitthat you can implement anytime, any meeting, no
matter who is there too.
Another company I worked with, they had ananonymous box on a manager's desk, and that
(29:44):
box, people could just put in things they weregoing through, conflict with their spouse,
their child was sick, the list went on and on.
But the fact that it was anonymous, peoplecould actually feel like they could actually be
seen without being seen.
And that for me, it was like I'd like to see aface behind that, but that was a great starting
point for them.
(30:04):
And it gave the company recognition of how muchthese people are actually caring.
I always say you bring your home to work andyour work home.
There is no magical line that you cross thethreshold of, I'm like, everything's great.
It doesn't work that way.
It doesn't mean that it's an excuse not to beprofessional.
It doesn't mean that it's an excuse not to, bepresent at work.
(30:28):
But are you human at work?
Yes.
And the more that we realize that, I think themore resilient we can actually be versus
ignoring it as well too.
So those are just 2 things that I've seen thatcould possibly work and are pretty cost
effective.
Amazing.
Something very simple.
Yeah.
And I think it's oftentimes people get intomeetings and become so tactical, and then we're
(30:52):
not our human potential isn't right in the roomor on screen like we are today.
Yep.
You can still read so much about what's goingon.
Like, you said, how are you doing?
And I said, I'm good, but some other thingsgoing on.
That's simple because you said, how are youdoing?
That means that you really wanna know, and youcan you can really shift things to your point
(31:13):
if you realize seems to be that Swartzell isalso always so shiny and bright, but there
seems to be something missing.
It gives you clues too, but potentially whatwhat you might need to do to reach out to
someone 1 to 1 offline, not in a meeting toreally Yeah.
Understand what's going on with them more.
So with the book, tell them where they can getit, tell them where they can get ahold of you
(31:35):
so that Yeah.
Everybody that's listened and spent the timewith us today, if they're wanting your support,
they can reach out, Shahana.
Yeah.
I so appreciate that.
The book is available on Amazon.
It's also on Audible as well.
I did the reading, so hopefully, whether that'sgood, bad, or otherwise, you can let me know
what you think of that.
On my website at doctor shohanna.com, feel freeto reach out to me there, and then very active,
(31:57):
especially on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIntoo.
So any of that plat those platforms, send me amessage, drop me a DM, and more than happy to
get in touch.
Awesome.
So a self acknowledgment.
I guess that's the one thing that I'm thinkingthat I'm listening, when I listen to doctor
Shahana today.
It's just to spend that time in quiet.
What we have done is we have deprived ourselvesin this day and age and think of who's around
(32:23):
you and what are they getting off you.
If you're not slowing, you're acknowledging,what energy and radiation of your space are
you, putting forward, to the people around you.
So for everyone, thanks for tuning in.
You know that if you're wanting to know howauthentically connected you are to your
relationships, either at work or at home, justgo to roxanderhodge.comforward/quiz.
(32:46):
We'll send you a little quiz.
It'll take you a couple minutes, and we'll sendyou back some results with some next steps.
Again, doctor Shana, thanks so much.
And for everyone, thanks again for tuning in,and we'll chat with you again next week.
Take care.
(33:09):
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach.
To work with Roxanne, visit roxannedirhaj.com/blueprint.
We'll see you next time on Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, aplace where we have conscious conversations
about things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
(00:40):
Hi, everyone.
It's Roxanne Duro Hodge.
Thanks for tuning in again to Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
So today I have a colleague that, we sharesimilar backgrounds, but we come at it at a
different angle.
Doctor Shahana is a medical doctor that,specializes around areas about mental
well-being and mental health and does a lot ofthings out on the west end of Canada related to
(01:04):
mental health with families and individuals.
So, doctor Chana, thanks, for coming in againto today to spend some time with us.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
So tell us a little bit about kind of yourforay into kind of dealing with mental health.
Obviously, you're bringing a medicalbackground.
What got you on that trajectory to want to gomore into mental health?
(01:27):
When you look at one of the logos that I have,it says doctor, speaker, mother.
And that is almost like this bio right in yourface of why mental health is important to me,
but I always show a slide that has patientright at the bottom corner of that.
And the honest answer to your question isreally it wasn't until the birth of my first
(01:48):
son about 9 years ago that I myself wentthrough postpartum anxiety and OCD and
depression and on that mental health didn'tbecome a you problem.
It didn't become something that I was justadvocating for you, helping you.
It became a very real me problem.
And I think until things really pinch and Ithink until really you feel the depths of the
(02:13):
despair and really understanding how this isimpacting not just your life, but your family's
life and your child's life, does this becomeall too important to say how did I get here?
And that was the instrumental question after 12years of studying, after studying kinesiology,
nutrition, medicine obviously, I realized I hadlearned a lot about disease, a lot about
(02:35):
illness, but nothing about true mental andemotional health too.
So it was like anything else, me search, tryingto figure out how to help me through this, and
then realizing patient after patient, clientafter client, that the problems are very
similar that we're facing too.
It wasn't until I gave my TEDx talk a few yearsago that I really realized that I'd really been
(02:59):
a hypocrite when I came to mental health.
It was really about it would it was the ideabeing I was too privileged, I was too educated,
I was too fill in the blank to ever haveanything or to suffer with mental health, And
it was on that stage that I kind of came cleanwith regards to all of that too.
So it's been a humbling journey.
It's been a transformative journey, and it'sbeen an ongoing journey.
(03:23):
I always joke that mental health is not a rash,give it a cream and it goes away.
Right?
I wish it was.
For many of us, myself included, it is ongoing.
Some days are better than others.
Sometimes you're triggered more than others.
So I think the ongoing nature of it, hopefully,I can speak to what that resilience actually
(03:45):
feels like.
And sometimes when you feel down in the dumps,that's okay too.
So I think of your training.
Right?
We think of the OMA and kind of going throughmedical school.
Mhmm.
And some of my best friends, one's a pediatricsurgeon, the other one's an ophthalmologist.
They we were all with the brats of the ninetiesfrom the Caribbean.
So I came to Canada, one one to Ireland, andthe other one to England.
(04:06):
And I literally remember us having thesemassive conversations because they would have
these wicked days, like 16, 18 hour days.
Yeah.
And then I'd be like, wow.
Like, how do you do it?
So it's interesting Mhmm.
That even though you've gone through thistraining, like you said, you got through it
somehow.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
And how did you get through it and be able toobviously, you applied certain things back
(04:31):
then.
Mhmm.
Mhmm.
But it didn't hit you, like you said, until youactually had your first child.
Completely.
And I think as you probably can speak to aswell, like, mental health doesn't happen in a
silo.
Right?
For me, to be the truth was that all of thiswas grumbling along in the background for a
very long period of time.
It just becomes what is the straw that breaksthe camel's back?
What is that thing that really that you can'tignore it anymore?
(04:56):
We always like to think that we can suppressour emotions, deny our emotions, but I always
joke, eventually, they will come and find you.
And the postpartum period just happens to beone of the most, quote, fertile periods to
really say that this is when things are goingto uproot and you're going to you better pay
attention to them.
So I think if you look at the population inmedical school, it's a self selected population
(05:20):
of those people who really value, I'll behonest, prestige, perfectionism, they fear
rejection.
Right?
All of that stuff.
If you really surveyed everybody, they're gonnarate really high on that, and it's no wonder
the rates of not just mental illness, butsuicidality is much higher in those types of
professional career choices too.
(05:41):
So it's coming for you somewhere, and it's justwhere is that breaking point.
I just found medical school was a great it itkept me so mentally distracted from everything.
I could just immerse myself in that, but itwasn't very emotionally distracting.
The biggest the hardest piece for me is when Ihad a baby.
That was the biggest emotional load that Icouldn't study my way out of this.
(06:06):
I couldn't rely on a textbook for this anymore.
There was no right way to parent, and I waslooking for that in a very black and white way.
And I think that for me was the topplingfactor.
It's the gray.
Right?
And I had my son a little bit later.
And likewise with you, I had done the bit andwas a psychologist, and I I was in corporate
(06:26):
consulting.
And then I had this little thing, and Ithought, I I don't have any control.
Yeah.
The ultimate space, like, you shared, like,where you kinda go, wow, when you speak to your
older family and say, what was it really like?
And then you're realizing the importance ofwhat exists in some of the eastern cultures
Yes.
Yes.
(06:47):
Where you kinda go to now it's the doulas ofthe world, which is the emotional well-being of
the parents, or even my mom came and stayedwith me for a month.
Well, that's very cultural as well because alot of nuclear families in North America, it's
it's it's kinda not they they don't have thatkind of net to help them through.
So it's interesting that you'd say that thatwas when it was like, woah.
(07:10):
Not black, not white, not e, not e, not f.
Exactly.
And then
everything in between.
And I think the other piece was that being aperson who had a profession, who looked to be
all good from the outside, that actually makesyou more susceptible.
That actually makes you more fragile in someways because you were that much less likely to
(07:32):
ask for help.
So I know a lot of professional folks might belistening to this podcast, and there's still
whether you like it or not, there still is thatstigma that meant if you even admit that you
are an anxiety is a symptom and not necessarilyas a diagnosis.
Right?
We have to be very clear on that too.
But even if you are having any shadows orstate, you know, feelings of that, there still
(07:54):
is that stigma that that means that you're weakor you need to try harder or as my family loves
to say, snap out of it.
And that's kind of the the trademark sayinggrowing up or just snap out of it.
I'm like, it's not a button.
There's nothing to really snap on or off.
Right?
So I think the entire thing is that if we onlyunderstood the the psychological principle of
(08:16):
the beautiful mess effect, which is really ifyou already know and like and trust me as a
physician, as a colleague, and if I am humbleenough to admit the realities of what I was
going through, you don't know and trust meless.
You actually know and trust me more.
And that's the biggest misnomer that we havethat we think that if we share our real truth,
if we are authentic, it feels like it's gonnabe too much.
(08:39):
In fact, people lean in, and we all need tostart leaning in just a little bit more because
the world has just become way too fake and muchtoo polarized.
That's interesting that you'd say that.
Right?
Like, when you think about levels oforganization and I was just doing I think when
we chatted, I was do I was about to do sometraining in a with a company in Toronto.
(08:59):
And one was just middle managers, and the othersecond one, there was a couple of senior
managers.
Okay.
And it was interesting that in this particularcompany that you could see the difference in
that middle managers who were all of the samelevel were open, first of all.
But when you cross pollinated between upper andmiddle, I could see this I could feel it.
(09:23):
I could feel it.
I was like, wow.
The first one, they were open.
They were sharing.
And this is a really progressive company thatreally promotes trust and openness and respect
and that shoulders to shoulder management.
But the cross pollinating in the secondtraining of that day, they it was a I I almost
felt like it got packaged in a way becausesenior management was in the in the room.
(09:47):
Yes.
Yes.
You know, which is so unfortunate.
Exactly.
And we almost become more buttoned up thehigher that we we climb up onto those higher
echelons of whatever you wanna call it,management status.
And I think that does the biggest disservicebecause we all know that actually building true
psychological safety in our teams have to startfrom the top and has to start from the
(10:07):
vulnerability of our leaders.
And vulnerability, of course, takes that amountof courage too.
So we just we do this in our young I've got 3young boys like we've shared before too, and we
do this in our in teaching our young kids aswell.
Right?
Oh, be strong, but don't cry.
Like, there's always these mixed messages ofyou're supposed to do this, but actually, no.
Don't do that too.
(10:28):
And when do we have a bigger emotionalbandwidth to say, actually, there's room for
all of it?
And that doesn't mean that you are that.
That if you're angry or frustrated or fill inthe blank, you are not an angry person.
You are not an envious person.
You just feel that way for that period of time.
Right.
And I think it's as basic as fundamentally Ithink of when my son was growing.
(10:51):
And, of course, I grew up with girls, so now Ihave a boy, and then I'm like, oh my goodness.
What am I gonna do?
But then I what I realized was I became thereflective lens of how connected he was to
himself.
And I'll give you an ex this is a funny littleexample.
Right?
So, of course, I grew up in Trinidad.
They play cricket and rounders and netball.
Yeah.
And I come to Canada, and everybody playshockey.
(11:13):
So, of course, what's the logical path Trinidadand how Canadian child gonna do?
He's gonna and he's a a beautiful naturedchild, but you could see the switch as soon as
he started once he got into the context of whatwould the expectations were on the ice.
He was kind and loving and gentle.
And then when he got on the ice, he it's almostlike he had to cut it off to be in charge, in
(11:35):
control, and showing no emotion.
So you could see how young boys, especially,which I think we men, we want them to protect,
but we also want them to be vulnerable.
Yes.
And it it's such a I often say it's such agreat space for them because where do they get
the role models?
They might they have to obviously learn it fromfathers Correct.
Which they have been reared in a different way,but also moms that have to learn that, okay, we
(11:59):
can teach them to be vulnerable, but they alsohave to be protective enough to be able to go
out there and and deal with the hockey kindarinks of the world and the locker rooms and
kind of being there and being a protectiveelement if they go on to have their families as
well.
Completely.
Yeah.
No.
That's such a good point too, and it's funnythat you mentioned that my kids are just
starting to play hockey as well.
And I think, yeah, there's a lot of of what'sset on the sidelines of what and we don't
(12:24):
understand how much they actually soak in andtake in at such a young age too.
But the message, I think, really being that Ialways joke with my patients saying that for me
to write a prescription for you takes hardlyany time.
It takes, like, a second or 2 seconds to justsigning my name on the bottom of a prescription
pad.
That is not the problem.
(12:44):
The problem or the question becomes, whatbrings you here and what brings you here now?
And trying to understand the story and thetrajectory of your life that has really led up
to this.
And the more and more I've thought about it isthat as a physician, as even a psychologist, we
have privy of seeing the entire mental healthpicture, whether it be anxiety, depression,
(13:06):
insomnia, chronic stress, the list goes on andon.
But every single pixel that makes up thatpicture has been the tens of 100 of 1000 of
opportunities we've all had to understand ouremotions and why we've reacted in certain ways
and what your emotions are trying to tell us.
See, I think emotions were just something thatI knew when I grew up, it was just supposed to
(13:29):
be glossed over and gleaned over.
It was not nothing to really pay attention to.
But if we start to think of our emotions like acompass and trying to point you in the
direction of what you actually value and careabout, This is the kind of work I'm trying to
do with the adolescents I see now to take ourconversations and to move it into something
more meaningful.
(13:51):
So the pressures are obviously, like I said,starts very young with us, be be the boy or
girl or whatever.
And into adolescence, the pressure becomes nowhow do I how do I function?
How do I, you know, like, separate ordeindividuate, like we call it in the in the
clinical world, and learned that I'm gonna beokay on my own
(14:13):
Yes.
Yes.
Without, you know, the dependence of, I wantmom and dad to take care of it, but I'm scared
out of my mind.
But I wanna belong.
Plus, I wanna know that potentially I caneventually go out there and not have to run
back home kind of thing.
Correct.
There's a lot more pressures.
So I'm just curious with when when we talkabout authenticity, and I know you talk a lot
(14:34):
about that and I do as well.
Yes.
What
do you find the biggest pressures are foradolescents today about of being authentic?
I think we haven't really given them the spaceto know what that even means.
Their world is so bombarded.
Like, if you ask an adolescent, when's the lasttime you were quiet?
(14:55):
Just quiet.
I'm not saying meditate.
I'm not saying anything like that.
Just quiet.
They'll look at you as if in
no way You've got a 3rd eye.
Exactly.
But why?
I was gonna think that as if you're highbecause most of the time, they're like, sorry.
What?
So the concept is a foreign concept and, like,authentic to what?
Right?
(15:15):
Because authentic to the group I'm part oftoday, the boyfriend I'm dating tomorrow, the
it's just such a fluid concept that I thinkit's imperative, and it's it's hard for me to
even say that upon coaches, teachers, doctors,psychologists, that we actually use some of
what they are saying as clues.
(15:35):
Like, a great example I'll give you is that Iwas seeing a 16 year old patient not that long
ago, and she was making some reallyinappropriate decisions, like decisions that
could seriously impact her health, maybepossibly cause run ins with the law, those
types of things.
And she didn't think anything of that, but Iwas using our report to help her reframe some
of the decisions you possibly could make.
(15:57):
And all of a sudden, out of the corner of myeye, I see a spider, and I'm terrified of
spiders.
And here she is opening up to me really havinga deep conversation, and I can't concentrate on
her at all because all I can see is a spider.
So she looks at me and says, can I take care ofthat for you?
I said, of course.
That'd that'd be amazing.
Thank you.
Grab a Kleenex.
And she points her finger directly in my faceand says, I don't kill things.
(16:20):
Give me a cup.
Wow.
Okay.
I'm not used to having a youth point it in myface, but fine.
Got her a little cup.
She takes the spider.
Spider goes off on his merry way.
She comes back inside.
And here I was with this dilemma of makingreally inappropriate serious repercussion types
of decisions on one hand and yet so committedto life, human animal life on the other hand.
(16:43):
And I just couldn't get I couldn't make senseof it, but I couldn't ignore it.
So I just called her out on it.
I said, I'm really I said, I it would have beenno skin off my nose if you'd crushed that
spider.
Like, I wouldn't have thought anything of it.
And she said, well, I really I've become avegan.
I wanna become a vegetarian.
I wanna become a veterinary assistant.
I'm saving up money to get a cat.
She could see how much she loved and her heartwas in service of animals.
(17:07):
So then I told her something.
I said, if you continue down this road, youwill sacrifice this.
Right?
If you continue making these decisions, whatyou value.
So my job as an educator, a physician, was toshine a spotlight on what she valued with that
simple action of taking the spider and savinghis life versus the alternate too.
(17:30):
That's where the that's where the authenticityhappens.
But until someone takes a big flashlight andshines it in their face, a lot of the times, it
just goes it passes you by.
It passes you by.
So I think yeah.
That's it.
So interesting.
Right?
Because I think, generally, what is it?
Every patient gets 6 minutes of physician'stime.
(17:51):
Right?
And which
It's bonkers.
Yep.
Yeah.
It is bonkers.
Right?
Because when I would say, to people, well, weneed to we need to let you see your physician.
And if new clients come to me, they're like,the first thing it would say is, can you
prescribe me something?
And I go, what what do you wanna be to pres I'manxious.
Give me something to calm down.
Okay.
I'm depressed, and I'm like, oh, okay.
(18:13):
So I will say to them, so here's the deal.
First of all, we're just here to try tounderstand whatever the I'm not sleeping.
What let's use that as an example.
And then, eventually, like you, I'll jokearound and say, I can you know, if you think I
I can write a prescription, I said, this iswhat's gonna happen.
Just this place is true with I write somethingout, and you go out, and you do it my way for 2
(18:34):
weeks.
And you're gonna kinda like me the first maybeweek and a half.
And the second week latter part of the secondweek, you're gonna fall down.
You're gonna bump your nose based on whatever Itold you to do.
And then you're gonna come back in here andyou're gonna be pissed off at me, and then they
look at me.
Go, really?
I go, generally, that's what I see.
Or we try to get to understand the frame thatyou're talking about, Johan, which is what's
(18:58):
really important to you.
Right?
And then they go, oh, okay.
Maybe we'll try that kind of thing.
Because I think you're right.
People, individuals, even we're talking aboutthat in our case.
But when I'm coaching even, individuals, when Isay, but what do you value?
They go, what do I value?
What do you mean?
What do you mean exactly?
(19:18):
I said, are you kind of you know, when we'retalking about coaching or, you know, making
decisions at work, are you living in alignmentwith your value?
And oftentimes, they haven't slowed down longenough to say, I think I am, but I don't know
if I've thought about it lately.
Totally.
Completely.
Right?
And we ask ourselves the same question.
(19:39):
Right?
It sounds like such a great question, but thebest way I find to approach values is honestly
what pisses you off?
What makes you really angry?
Because people can get on board with thatbecause to find what gets you angry often is
something that is trying to speak to you,Right?
But asking someone the alternate that what doyou really care about and value, they I think
(20:01):
we say, oh, I value family, and I value all theesoteric things that people always say.
But especially in adolescence, the pissing youoff question, and even adults works really
well.
I think then the idea being that there is and,of course, I speak to adolescents, but there is
a life outside the walls of high school if andwhen you graduate.
Right?
There is a whole big beautiful life waiting foryou, and the decisions you make today obviously
(20:25):
will have repercussions later on.
But at the same time, you have the autonomy,right, to choose what that is going to look
like as well, independent of the influencesthat you have chosen, good, bad, or otherwise.
Right?
So I think bringing these elements into theconversation has certainly taught me so much
because I've realized just like you, when youhave to ask yourself those questions, sometimes
(20:48):
I fall flat as well.
Right.
And and then context wise too, like, so you'resaying, what's the narrative?
Like, what are they coming from?
What circumstances have they been through underage 5?
I'm gonna assume you probably do things likeACEs and stuff like that.
Yeah.
If they're coming to you as an adolescent andyou're supporting them and caring for them Yes.
But you're putting them back into the pepperpots of uncertainty, then that child or
(21:12):
adolescent may be adaptive to the environmentthey're in and trying to find that one little
vein that you maybe can tap into them to saythat you have you have the ability to do
something different even though you may begoing back into a tough situation as well.
Completely.
Completely.
One of the biggest phrases that now I say to mykids and a youth coined this, and it doesn't
(21:35):
the acronym doesn't quite make sense, but it'scalled WCLIC, which basically stands, what can
I control?
WCIC, what can I control?
And the youth love this, and one of the youthmade it up, but it was she opened out to me.
She was 14, and mom's an alcoholic.
Stepfather's in and out of the house.
It's not a great environment at home.
(21:56):
Right.
That's right.
And she had to learn she said from the age of 4or 5, what can I control?
I can't control all of this havoc.
I wanna get out of the house eventually.
But then we looked at her list, and it wasshe's doing great at school.
She's showing up for class.
She's handing in her assignments.
And, yes, we're talking about adolescence, butthis also applies to adults too.
(22:17):
Sometimes, especially in a very unpredictableworld as we're entering too, we have to keep
remembering what can I control right nowinstead of always wanting to predict the
future, which is our stories are meet our mindsare meaning makers?
We're constantly making meaning of a situation.
Right?
But if you focus on the here and now and what Ican do in this very moment, I think that if I
(22:40):
could give that to every adolescent and everyadult including myself, that is one of the most
powerful things that we can take away.
Now you've written a book, and, it's calledfeel better.
That's right.
Yeah.
Release.
So tell us a little bit about that, and I knowyou, also speak as a keynote speaker as well.
Tell us a little bit about the book and a bitabout your speaking so that anybody that's
(23:04):
listening and that's interested in the topicwould understand what you're kind of doing out
there.
No.
Of course.
The the premise
of the book came because I would ask youthoften, do you care about yourself?
Not even love yourself.
I'm not gonna go there.
I just said care about yourself.
And over and over and over again, without theseyouth communicating with each other, I get the
same reply.
(23:24):
I express like, kind of swear word swear wordswear word hate myself.
And it was always the same version of the sameanswer, And that's what the book is built on.
The idea that if we wanna talk about selfawareness, which is really the bedrock of
emotional literacy and something that we alllove to talk about because just like
psychological safety, it's become a buzzword.
(23:45):
How can you become self aware if you don't havean iota of self acknowledgment or inner
acknowledgment if you feel like that's a betterphrase too?
And how how does one build a betterself-concept, especially if you've had adverse
childhood experiences or if you've had thingsthat were possibly out of your control.
So it's very tangible.
So it starts with self acknowledgement, crossesthe bridge to self awareness, and then leads to
(24:09):
self compassion.
That is the arc of the book too.
But the book is filled with obviously anonymousbut real life patient stories.
Right?
A cumulative picture of patient stories of justlike the spider example to go, how do you take
one scenario and make it a story that hopefullyyou'll remember?
And many of us either have children or havekids or adolescents in our lives that we love
(24:33):
and care about.
So sometimes by reading the book for someoneelse, it's very rare.
I think women are the exception, but you'regonna pick up the book and say, I need help.
But But if you pick up the book and say someoneI love needs help, whatever else tends to
filter through is a bonus for you.
Right?
So it's really written for women between theages of 3550, but the ancillary benefit is
(24:57):
gonna hopefully help your kids as well.
Mhmm.
Absolute it's, we're in this world, and,obviously, you picked this world and I did too.
Even culturally at times, you know, you I wouldstart talking about things and people would say
and I'm in Trinidad and they might say, well,what do you mean about that?
And I'm like, well, we gotta think about whatwe're feeling, and are we expressing, and is
this in alignment with what you know, I oftensay the GPS in our tummies, it goes off and it
(25:22):
does it doesn't stop until you acknowledge it.
And then I think back.
Right?
Like, the things that I teach now compared towhat I grew up with.
In my high school, I think my parents werehaving difficulties, and they sent me to see
the school counselor who didn't even know whatto do with me because and I'm like, okay.
Well, this is poor.
I'm thinking back to when I was 16, and then Ithought, oh my goodness.
(25:43):
That was really bad.
That was just somebody to be there to call themthe the the title, but not really bad guys that
were saying, you know, to our little ones, whatare you feeling?
What's your tummy telling you?
If somebody makes you uncomfortable, use yourwords, talk.
We're we're starting because we have knowledge,say, from 40 years ago compared to now.
And you're right.
(26:03):
It's that self acknowledgment.
And you never know who's gonna help that ifthat child comes from adverse situations.
Yeah.
Like, it could be a teacher, could be a coach,it could be a friend's parents, those types of
things, but it's kinda starting to acknowledgethat.
And in the workplace, it plays out as well.
I often say that's a bigger version of asmaller sandbox.
Correct.
(26:23):
Correct.
Yeah.
You see it as it plays out, you know, when yousee the dynamics at work.
What is everybody looking for but safety withinthemselves?
And then people in the workplace, what are theydoing?
They're jabbing at them intentionally, notintentionally, unconsciously, and then we're
all supposed to really go out and do we'rewe're supposed to blend that new project and
get through all those things.
(26:44):
So that's where I find a lot of, resiliencecomes in into into question because are people
aware what they're doing to others?
Or sometimes if they're aware, are they willingto do anything about it?
Now in your speaking, tell us a little bitabout kind of where what kind of topics you
speak about and some of the other things thatyou do outside of your practice?
(27:08):
Oh, for sure.
Yeah.
So, you know, I was giving the TEDx talk in2019.
That was my first time being on stage, and Irealized this is what I wanted I want to do
more of.
Really, fortunately, that has led to speakingacross Canada.
The topics really have to center around what,obviously, I love to speak about today, which
is mental health and wellness too.
But I think one of the things I've learned isthat people find it really hard to talk about
(27:31):
mental health.
Right?
So when you reframe that as burnout managementor self care or resiliency or wellness or any
of those euphemisms, but to really for me, Iwanna be able to address the meat of the
subject, but sometimes you need to do it in away of talking about the positive or how how
can we communicate better better or how can weconnect better as a team.
(27:52):
Those are all various subjects that I've spokenabout too and now using the book as a lever to
pull and having a framework in the book of theacknowledgment, the self awareness, the
compassion, and looking at that triad, it helpsto bolster the talk that much more too.
But I think what hopefully sets my talks apartare the real life examples from the patients.
(28:14):
I think those are the ones I've attended manykeynote sessions, many breakout sessions.
I don't often remember the subject, but Iremember the stories.
Right?
So I think the more you can impact peoplethrough the type of stories you are, not making
your stories just an anecdote, but making yourstories really land with people and give them
some tools that they can take away.
(28:34):
Know, that's what I I endeavor to do.
So if you're a senior leader or or part of asenior team and you're thinking, how is it that
I kinda gauge what's around me?
What might be a couple of quick tips that youmight tell them to consider?
Yeah.
Yeah.
My favorite.
No.
For sure.
My favorite is the 2 word check-in in ameeting.
(28:55):
I do this all the time when I lead my meetingswith my staff as well too.
You go around the table.
The leader always has to go first too to setthe stage because if the leader says wonderful
and shiny, no one else is gonna really beauthentic to themselves.
But if the leader says I'm feeling distractedand irritable, you set the stage for the rest
of the group to say, in that moment, they cansay any words except fine or good.
(29:18):
Right?
Anything else is on the table.
I did that recently with a large company, andit was heartbreaking to see the types of
responses people were saying, but it also wasgratifying to see people weren't sugarcoating
what they were feeling too.
So that's a very, you know, low hanging fruitthat you can implement anytime, any meeting, no
matter who is there too.
Another company I worked with, they had ananonymous box on a manager's desk, and that
(29:44):
box, people could just put in things they weregoing through, conflict with their spouse,
their child was sick, the list went on and on.
But the fact that it was anonymous, peoplecould actually feel like they could actually be
seen without being seen.
And that for me, it was like I'd like to see aface behind that, but that was a great starting
point for them.
(30:04):
And it gave the company recognition of how muchthese people are actually caring.
I always say you bring your home to work andyour work home.
There is no magical line that you cross thethreshold of, I'm like, everything's great.
It doesn't work that way.
It doesn't mean that it's an excuse not to beprofessional.
It doesn't mean that it's an excuse not to, bepresent at work.
(30:28):
But are you human at work?
Yes.
And the more that we realize that, I think themore resilient we can actually be versus
ignoring it as well too.
So those are just 2 things that I've seen thatcould possibly work and are pretty cost
effective.
Amazing.
Something very simple.
Yeah.
And I think it's oftentimes people get intomeetings and become so tactical, and then we're
(30:52):
not our human potential isn't right in the roomor on screen like we are today.
Yep.
You can still read so much about what's goingon.
Like, you said, how are you doing?
And I said, I'm good, but some other thingsgoing on.
That's simple because you said, how are youdoing?
That means that you really wanna know, and youcan you can really shift things to your point
(31:13):
if you realize seems to be that Swartzell isalso always so shiny and bright, but there
seems to be something missing.
It gives you clues too, but potentially whatwhat you might need to do to reach out to
someone 1 to 1 offline, not in a meeting toreally Yeah.
Understand what's going on with them more.
So with the book, tell them where they can getit, tell them where they can get ahold of you
(31:35):
so that Yeah.
Everybody that's listened and spent the timewith us today, if they're wanting your support,
they can reach out, Shahana.
Yeah.
I so appreciate that.
The book is available on Amazon.
It's also on Audible as well.
I did the reading, so hopefully, whether that'sgood, bad, or otherwise, you can let me know
what you think of that.
On my website at doctor shohanna.com, feel freeto reach out to me there, and then very active,
(31:57):
especially on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIntoo.
So any of that plat those platforms, send me amessage, drop me a DM, and more than happy to
get in touch.
Awesome.
So a self acknowledgment.
I guess that's the one thing that I'm thinkingthat I'm listening, when I listen to doctor
Shahana today.
It's just to spend that time in quiet.
What we have done is we have deprived ourselvesin this day and age and think of who's around
(32:23):
you and what are they getting off you.
If you're not slowing, you're acknowledging,what energy and radiation of your space are
you, putting forward, to the people around you.
So for everyone, thanks for tuning in.
You know that if you're wanting to know howauthentically connected you are to your
relationships, either at work or at home, justgo to roxanderhodge.comforward/quiz.
(32:46):
We'll send you a little quiz.
It'll take you a couple minutes, and we'll sendyou back some results with some next steps.
Again, doctor Shana, thanks so much.
And for everyone, thanks again for tuning in,and we'll chat with you again next week.
Take care.
(33:09):
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach.
To work with Roxanne, visit roxannedirhaj.com/blueprint.
We'll see you next time on Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
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