July 5, 2023 • 27 mins
In this episode, Roxanne chats with Carolyn Treviño Jenkins about her career in startups and leadership style. They discuss Carolyn's experiences with prejudice and strategies for dealing with discrimination. Topics also include transitioning to CEO, navigating company culture, the importance of team-building, and Carolyn's journey through cancer.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, aplace where we have as conversations about
things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
(00:36):
Hi, everyone.
It's Roxanne Durgesh.
Thanks for tuning in again to authentic livingwith Roxanne.
Today, I have a colleague Carolyn TravinTrevino Jenkins.
I said I wouldn't, trip up on the Trevinothere.
And she is someone that, is a Forbes businesscouncil, a tech technology business council
(00:56):
member, and we were we were fortunate enough II popped into this wrong room and actually met
Carolyn at that point, at Forbes because I'm apart of the general, business council and we
got to know each other and she's got afascinating story as a CEO and I invited her
today to kind of share some of the things thatshe's been through a longer path.
(01:21):
That might help some of us that are femaleentrepreneurs, but also CEOs.
So, Caroline, thanks so much for coming ontoday.
Oh, thank you for inviting me.
I'm really excited to be here.
So, Carolyn, now you and I started off because
we I think we were talking about diversity and,you know, I was fascinated by your background
(01:42):
because visibly I did not know, about yourbackground and you were sharing a couple of
stories, I believe, that got me intrigued.
Obviously, I'm from Turbago, so I would sayvisibly, I'm I look for and and and that
changes that kind of sometimes the trajectoryin a room.
But with you, tell us a little bit about yourbackground and kinda your path.
(02:04):
I know you live in Texas at present with yourfamily.
Kids and your dogs and your lovely husband, buttell us a little bit about your path into kind
of, you know, business.
Well, that's a, a big question there.
So but, yeah, I think you were kinda sharingwith some of the, the back and stories you and
(02:25):
I talked about about the way I look.
I am 1st generation American.
My my dad's family is from Mexico.
My dad was 10.
When they moved here.
What I look like my mom, who's Italian, I don'tlook like my dad, and I sort of grew up even in
my childhood where I never quite fit in.
(02:48):
There were people often the Hispanic communitythought I wasn't Hispanic enough.
And then sometimes the the, you know, whitecommunity would say harsh things if they found
out I was Hispanic, like, literally in 5thgrade, I had a teacher tell me I was the
dumbest Mexican she'd ever met, to my face.
So I you know, also life's an adventure, and I,and I really learned But early in life, I think
(03:15):
that it's about how I can how I respond tolife.
You know, I can't control it, but I can controlhow I respond to things.
And that was really important to me.
And that's really been important in my businesscareer because as I, you know, I finished my
MBA many, many years ago, and and immediatelywanted to go to work and then chose to go to
(03:37):
work full time because I had a special needsson that was born in between my 1st and second
year, and he needed a lot from me.
And we had some disc discrimination in the raceand in the medical system back then, as well
before my last name was Jenkins, on the end ofthat.
(03:59):
And just sort of that lived experience, tookthat into the workplace.
Again, when I finally went to work full time, Iworked part time, And I sort of fell into the
startup world, and I loved it.
Like, I had to I was working in corporateAmerica.
I was doing really well.
And one of my customers recruited me away to astartup in 1997 when there were not enough
(04:24):
positions there was the y 2 k scare and theinternet bubble, and there were way more
technology positions than technologists, andthat's when I first jumped in the startup
world.
And never in a 1000000 years in 1997 could Ihave told you I would one day be a CEO.
Film.
So it wasn't one of those dreams that you said,hey, one day when I grow up, I'm gonna be a a
(04:49):
female CEO you just never thought about it.
You just kinda followed the pebbles in the roadthat landed you into, you know, I I know lots
of different projects, in with startups.
Yeah.
That first startup really kind of in my careerbecame very much sort of see a need for a need
(05:09):
and it's really sort of about this attitudethat later, you know, if I had been smarter or
if I'd been more marketing oriented, I wouldhave coined it better because it was more like,
well, it's sort of like mom leadership.
Right?
It's like and really good leadership skills,but to me, it's like being a good mom is like,
I my kids are different.
I want I expect I have the same expectation ofthe behavior, but how I motivate them is
(05:32):
different.
Employees are the same way.
You have the same expectation, but you can'ttalk to them the same.
They have different personalities.
You don't reward them the same.
They have different likes and, you know, so youhave to really treat people individually.
That doesn't mean you have differentexpectations of moments.
So I used to tell people, well, my leadershipskill, I said, like, mom, and that same thing
as a mom.
(05:52):
You see a need.
You just do it.
Right?
And so in my first executive role, it's like,well, I was over HR.
But people would start, and their laptopswouldn't be ready.
They wouldn't be imaged.
Their email wouldn't be set up, and I'd belike, I can solve this.
Oh, like, I keep fussing at IT.
But I can solve it.
See, you need, fill a need.
I'm technical enough.
I had programming classes, in my past.
(06:14):
And so I just started imaging laptops andsetting up emails on the exchange server, which
eventually led to me being over our ITdepartment, in addition to HR, It was just I
didn't set out to be over it, and then I endedup being over facilities because I was like,
well, this is frustrating, and we someone justneeds to fix it.
So I just that well, someone needs to do it.
(06:37):
Why not me?
Someone needs to clean the conference room,same thing.
Why not me?
Like, I can pick up a dish and wipe a table andLike, that's just sort of always been my style.
And so I I didn't really say, I wanna be a CEOone day, but I did say I see problems that I
want to fix, and eventually that became, well,like today, I lived the problems when I was in
(07:03):
cancer that my company now solves.
And so it's CND filling.
So you had said, in in our last, interview withForbes.
You had shared a little bit about your youryour mindset that you kind of your father
taught you some really valuable lessons, and Iremember you telling a story about, how he told
(07:25):
you to deal with problem And I'm just wonderingif you can share that that story that you had
said that he how he told you to think aboutproblems.
Well, I'm not even sure if I remember whichstory because I have so many stories.
Yeah.
But it but
the basic thing was that he was saying to youthat, you know, basically any anything is
solvable, but I remember you sharing that wholethat you adopted that quite early.
(07:51):
Yeah.
You know, my my dad's, you know, taught me so,so so many lessons.
My dad was such an amazing life force and sucha positive man, and my dad's was really very
big in my life about, you know, solving thelittle bits of the problem, but also not to get
all wrapped up in what everyone else thoughtabout me, but what did I think of myself?
(08:14):
And that was so important in my dad, I mean,you would say things to me, like, you're too
smart to get, like, don't get emotional.
And he wasn't trying to tell me not be a caringperson, Right?
He was just trying to make me tough.
And he would say, you know, you're, you'reyou're 2 something.
Like, you're you're too attractive when I wasyoung and little and all those things.
(08:36):
And he's like, but so the world's not gonnathink you're as smart as you are.
So don't let people rattle you.
And when when someone says not nice thingsabout Hispanics, how you respond to that is way
more important than what they said.
Like, there were a lot of times I would sit ina room and and people would not under realize,
(09:00):
my background, and they would say very nastythings about Hispanics.
And I I had to handle that.
And my dad was always wanting to say how yourespond.
You can elevate what they think.
Or you could respond in a way that to them isvalidating what they think.
And that lesson stayed with me always and notjust about my race.
(09:23):
But about any, any conflict, I am in control ofhow I respond to that situation.
I can't change the other person so much as Ican change and handle myself.
So I would think that, you know, from thatfirst comment with that teacher all the way up
potentially.
And like you said, visibly, people aren'taware.
(09:45):
And, you know, they maybe make derogatorycomments.
So you at that point, I would think had to makea decision.
Like, okay, am I going to, go where they'regoing or I'm just gonna have them have a
different interface.
And at some point, I would say it's deliveringthe fact that somewhere along the line, they're
they're gonna trip into the fact that yourheritage, part of your heritage is Hispanic.
(10:07):
So they would just learn it along the waysomewhere.
Well, I will tell you that I usually try tofind a very polite nonchalant way to almost
immediately bring it to their attention.
Even I mean, not just in business, but, one ofmy daughters, when she was in high school, had
(10:30):
a boyfriend who was at my house and said, verynice things about Mexicans.
And I looked at him, I called him by name, andI said, you realize you're standing in my
house.
Do you not know that I am Mexican?
And he sort of looked at me for a minute, andhe said, but aren't you well, you're the
(10:51):
exception.
I'm like, no.
No.
Would you like to hear hear about my family myfamily in Mexico.
They're, you know, and how successful they are.
Would you like to hear about my grandfather?
Because he volunteered to fight for thiscountry to be a US citizen.
Like, he volunteered.
He wanted to be here so badly.
He risked his life, and he was at Normandy, andmost of his troop died.
(11:12):
But he made it.
Like, you wanna know how proud of an American Iam, but I didn't wanna yell at him.
And, like, some of my friends were like, andand your daughter still gets to date him.
You didn't, like, kick him out of your house.
And I was like, well, here's the thing.
If I kick him out of my house, which don't getme wrong.
It crossed my mind.
But if I had, he was gonna go home to the verysame parents who had taught him this.
(11:39):
But if I could show him something better,something different, maybe it gives him food
for thought so that he can be different.
So, no, I did not forbid my daughter, fromdating him.
I did not forbid him from coming into my house,and he came they dated for many, many more
months, and I think he had a very differentperspective.
(12:00):
Do I think I turn him around 180?
No.
But I bet I got him at least 90 degrees.
It reflected some kind of change.
You know, you know, how can you quantify thatother than to your point, you have them him
interface with somebody that's really,addressing the concern or or what they're
saying out there to give them the possibilityof having a different perception potentially
(12:23):
instead of bowling them over where maybe thenthey're gonna go.
Here we go again kind of thing, validatingmaybe a stereotype that has maybe never been
challenged.
Now, as a young female executive, I'm surethere were roadblocks along the way.
Maybe 1, maybe 2.
I'm not sure, but, how did you deal with those?
(12:45):
Like, I understand the mindset.
Have that were there times where you kinda justreally knew you were hitting up against the
glass ceiling and, you know, were there timesthings that you maybe you look back and go, oh,
geez.
I did this not so well.
And this is how I what I learned from it.
For maybe, you know, young female executives orpeople in the c suite that are listening, to
(13:08):
the podcast today.
Oh, gosh.
I'm sure there are so many mistakes that I'vemade.
But one of the things I learned early was topractice.
You know how, like, we all are taught topractice for sales.
Right?
You all hear about, oh, if you're gonna sellsomething and in my first one of my first
professional, jobs.
(13:29):
They would put us on these phone banks.
That was a sales job, and you would do,practice sales calls, and they would reach
record them all, and then you would have tolisten to yourself, and then they would do a
video recording, and you would have to watchyourself.
And it was so you could learn it.
So but you were practicing to sell something.
But I learned to think about if things were togo wrong.
(13:51):
What might I say?
How might I behave important because sometimesI'm not caught unaware.
And I didn't like that feeling.
I didn't like coming up with an answer on thefly, and I don't think I've ever had the exact
scenario I practiced for in my head.
But that practice prepares you.
(14:13):
It's like any other emergency you might preparefor.
Right?
You you get all ready for the hurricane, Youget already what if there's a flood, you know,
what if?
Well, discrimination, if it's because of yourrace, or your looks, or because of your gender,
like, it's still it feels like an emergencywhen it happens, And so being prepared and
(14:37):
having thought about those scenarios andpracticed how you will respond for those
scenarios, was some of the most valuable thingsI think I ever did to be ready for those
scenarios.
It was like the the first time someone came into a boardroom and thought I was the secretary
(14:58):
there to take notes I I wasn't prepared tohandle that.
Not not that it wasn't the end of the world,but it was just that, like, that all of a
sudden being made to feel small.
And, like, they think I don't belong, and and Ilet them own that.
And it's like, no.
I'm not gonna do that anymore.
Like, how do I how should I have responded tothat?
(15:19):
So in the future, how do I respond to that?
And I really tried You know, when you thinkabout your, like, business, like, where things
go wrong, how do I pivot?
But I also think about if conversations mightnot go well or, you know, how how am I gonna
respond and how am I gonna handle?
Yeah.
So, like, almost like a role playing withyourself to potentially look at different
(15:44):
interactions that you might have.
And obviously, if, you know, you're you'retripping along, you know, doing your thing, and
then things are gonna present and generally,I'm gonna assume you probably float with a lot
of them, but sometimes you might get into ascenario where you're like, okay, I'm dealing
with this situation.
Like you said, with the coffee, And then you'relike, okay.
I can either be reactive, you know, or and getdefensive or maybe have a conversation that
(16:09):
allows the person to recognize.
Well, I'm actually not the person that getscoffee, but like you had said, you know, that
person's gonna probably be right in kind ofthing, which, again, is that I like the fact
that you reframe in such a way to say, okay.
Well, obviously this person is limited in theirperspective.
I'm gonna try to kind of have them seesomething different.
(16:31):
Yeah.
Like, in that instance, at that first time, Iwasn't real prepared, but in the future, it
happened more than once.
You know, if someone's like, oh, you know, andyou even sometimes get the honey, you know,
especially in the south.
Honey, could you go get me some coffee?
And I'd be like, oh, I don't drink coffee, butI'm sure when the executive assistant gets
here, she'd be happy to get some for you, youknow, a password.
(16:53):
Or, you know, I'm I'm happy to show you wherethe room is kind of pins, right, is the coffee
like right now in the hall, then I'm happy toshow you where it is.
You can go get your own cup, you know, so thenthey're like, oh, like, but not in a mean way,
not where it's like, Because otherwise, I'veput them on the defensive, so they're gonna put
a wall up between us.
And I don't want there to be a wall.
That just makes it now.
I've got a wall and a ceiling.
(17:18):
Yeah.
A lot of climbing over to do.
I really wanted to keep in mind what your longterm objective is.
Is my objective to alienate this person?
No.
Is my objective to demonstrate to this personthat we're equals, not because of our sex, but
because of our intellect and our role in thebusiness, that's my objective, which means I
(17:39):
need them to be open to receiving thatinformation from me.
That's a that's a really, really so that longterm view versus kinda getting into it with
that person based on, you know, maybe less thanideal behavior.
Now I'm curious, right?
Like you said, so you go on.
You're a senior executive and you're, like,you're you're, like you're saying, you're in HR
(18:01):
and then you get into IT and then you're in,you know, a facility, all that stuff just based
on you just taking on new new things thatneeded to get done.
At the point, you became a CEO.
I'm curious about that.
Right?
Because, obviously, I think there's differentyou that strategic level that you go from to
(18:21):
get to a CEO level.
Were there any kind of fears in your mind atthat point.
And and if there were any, how did how did youdeal with it?
Oh, so many.
And for me, what happened,
you know, I had done multiple startups where Iwas one of the co founders.
(18:42):
So I I hired everybody, even once I quitwearing the HR hat and I was running a P and L,
I was still always the HR expert, and I wasstill always involved in the hiring process as
one of the co founders.
So I I had teams that I had chosen.
And if they were good or bad, I was part of thereason that we had that team and and there to
(19:03):
deal with it.
When I was hired by a different company tobecome their CEO, like, wow, like, I'm the new
person on the block.
And so all of a sudden, it was like, I need tofind the right balance of authority, but not
shut down listening to other people.
(19:25):
You know, and it and so what's ourintimidating.
Like, they all know each other.
They've all known each other longer thanthey've known me.
And I had from since 1997, it had always beenthe opposite I was like, I've been there all
along.
And so it was very different feelings saying,how do I come in here And I'm not saying that
(19:46):
we're trying to be, like, best friends, butdefinitely friendly.
I believe in friendship and back and and thosethings in the workplace, but I need that.
But as a CEO and a first time CEO, I also needto not give up too much of my authority, and I
needed that balance.
And right out of the gate, and my my first timeas a CEO, There was, an internal candidate for
(20:11):
CEO that had been passed over to bring me intothe role.
And that became my biggest challenge, if youwill, because I'm, I was determined to win this
person over.
Like, they didn't get the job.
It wasn't my decision.
They didn't get the job, but, obviously, I gotthe job instead of that person.
(20:33):
And I'm like, I'm I'm gonna get this person onboard.
He's still here.
He's my head of sales, and I'm gonna him onboard.
I never did get him on board.
You know, he, he ended up resigning, and it wasprobably a good thing and I think I let it drag
on longer than it should have, and it was agood thing he like took himself, out of the
(20:56):
equation.
I just could not win him over.
But when he was gone, he was causing And and Idon't think, purpose.
I mean, he's a good guy.
Like, if I saw him today on the street, I wouldsay hi to him and would shake hands and catch
up and and whatnot.
(21:17):
But I think just that that frustration for himthat he didn't get the job was just too hard to
overcome.
And so that getting that activity, thatnegativity out of the office was really
helpful.
So we were an in person company back then.
So
Okay.
So that that that bandy between, I have tocreate a presence as the CEO I wanna be
(21:42):
connected, but I need to be able to show,authoritativeness.
Like, Were the things that you really had towork on for that subset of skills, or did you
find that it it because you've been in lots ofdifferent positions with startups that that
came, easily to you.
(22:04):
The connectivity, it was interesting.
And and what I say is, like, there were certainpeople in the company that we instantly had can
shift in connectivity.
There were a couple of people managers in thecompany that I'll tell you.
I I I think I had their respect, but nevermaybe connectivity from them.
(22:27):
Now we were a strategy execution softwarecompany.
So as far as, like, the accountability that waseasy, everyone had their objectives.
They were all used to that.
Like, holding people accountable forperformance was easy.
Trying to have a company team building eventwas harder than any place I'd ever been in my
(22:49):
life.
I'm like, it was so fascinating to me, like,once a quarter, we would go volunteer at the
food bank, but we had some employees who werelike, I'm not doing that.
Like, I they and they wouldn't do it.
We had we did 1 quarter.
We went to, one of those puzzle rooms, youknow, where you have to get you know, when we
went to eat and we went to a puzzle room, andthere were employees who, like, leaned against
(23:12):
the wall with their arms crossed, and they'relike, I'm not playing this stupid game.
You know, and it was like, wow.
I have, like, never seen this kind of attitudeat any of my other companies where someone's
like, I I won't even try.
Oh, and I'll tell you there were a couple ofthem that I never went over, but they did their
job as employees.
(23:33):
They met their objectives.
You wouldn't say that they were bad performers,but from a culture, company culture standpoint,
like, we just never connected.
Never.
And it felt like they never blended in.
It wasn't just me.
They never blended in to the company culture asa whole.
And so it was hard for me.
It was a struggle for me to say, are they theright employee then?
(23:56):
Like, but they're doing their job.
They're like, doing a good job at their job.
They're hitting their objectives.
They're not a bad employee, but they certainlydidn't elevate the culture.
They weren't maybe what you would call aculture ad.
They were maybe a culture detractor.
Mhmm.
Mhmm.
And that was hard.
That was really hard because I was used tobeing, you know, well liked, well respected,
(24:25):
you know, but again, there were people I hired,which is different, I guess.
You know?
So Right.
Because you're growing you're growing theculture from the ground up if it's startup
versus, like you said, when you're inheriting,the context of what with prior leadership and,
you know, I often say what is the context ofwhat's happened within the culture, the
business units changes.
There's so many variables.
(24:47):
And then, you know, you know, I talk aboutreturn on relationship, but ultimately, if
you're connected and you're doing all thethings that are key to to get people, you know,
to function optimally, not everybody's gonnawant to be as cohesive.
Some some people are like, you know, just leaveme in my kind of my back office.
I'm gonna get stuff stuff done, and I'm not thetype that likes to potentially play games, you
(25:11):
know, or do puzzles.
But I'm pretty good on my own kind of thing.
So it it really depends, and it's oftentimes anindividual thing as well.
Yeah.
It was really fascinating.
Prior to me, the previous CEO didn't havecompany events.
And I came out of a culture where we always hada quarterly mean, they had company meetings,
(25:32):
but they didn't do, like, fun team buildingactivities.
And, of course, you can imagine my HRbackground, and then I was vice president
customer sass.
I was doing team things for my customers, and,it's just kinda core to my nature.
And we always had these things at our companiesin the past, and they were always a huge hit.
And I'm like, I even would have I was I likeserving the employees.
(25:55):
I'm like, well, what do you wanna do?
And those few people were like, nothing.
Like, we've never had to do this before, and wedon't wanna do it.
And you're sitting there going, well, when theywere hired, they didn't they were not their
expectations were not set that they needed todo this.
And so then how do I come in and penalize themor not wanting to do it, but it always felt
(26:16):
awkward.
So and I would like to think, had I been therelonger?
I wanted turned it around, but I'll never knowbecause I was, you know, I got cancer while I
was at that company.
And so I didn't have the tenure there as CEOthat I would have expected to have.
This was such a great interview that we decidedto turn it into a 2 part series.
(26:38):
Be sure to tune in next week for part 2 so youdon't miss out on the amazing content.
Thanks for tuning to authentic living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
(27:01):
We'll see you next time.
Unauthentic living with Roxanne.
Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, aplace where we have as conversations about
things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
(00:36):
Hi, everyone.
It's Roxanne Durgesh.
Thanks for tuning in again to authentic livingwith Roxanne.
Today, I have a colleague Carolyn TravinTrevino Jenkins.
I said I wouldn't, trip up on the Trevinothere.
And she is someone that, is a Forbes businesscouncil, a tech technology business council
(00:56):
member, and we were we were fortunate enough II popped into this wrong room and actually met
Carolyn at that point, at Forbes because I'm apart of the general, business council and we
got to know each other and she's got afascinating story as a CEO and I invited her
today to kind of share some of the things thatshe's been through a longer path.
(01:21):
That might help some of us that are femaleentrepreneurs, but also CEOs.
So, Caroline, thanks so much for coming ontoday.
Oh, thank you for inviting me.
I'm really excited to be here.
So, Carolyn, now you and I started off because
we I think we were talking about diversity and,you know, I was fascinated by your background
(01:42):
because visibly I did not know, about yourbackground and you were sharing a couple of
stories, I believe, that got me intrigued.
Obviously, I'm from Turbago, so I would sayvisibly, I'm I look for and and and that
changes that kind of sometimes the trajectoryin a room.
But with you, tell us a little bit about yourbackground and kinda your path.
(02:04):
I know you live in Texas at present with yourfamily.
Kids and your dogs and your lovely husband, buttell us a little bit about your path into kind
of, you know, business.
Well, that's a, a big question there.
So but, yeah, I think you were kinda sharingwith some of the, the back and stories you and
(02:25):
I talked about about the way I look.
I am 1st generation American.
My my dad's family is from Mexico.
My dad was 10.
When they moved here.
What I look like my mom, who's Italian, I don'tlook like my dad, and I sort of grew up even in
my childhood where I never quite fit in.
(02:48):
There were people often the Hispanic communitythought I wasn't Hispanic enough.
And then sometimes the the, you know, whitecommunity would say harsh things if they found
out I was Hispanic, like, literally in 5thgrade, I had a teacher tell me I was the
dumbest Mexican she'd ever met, to my face.
So I you know, also life's an adventure, and I,and I really learned But early in life, I think
(03:15):
that it's about how I can how I respond tolife.
You know, I can't control it, but I can controlhow I respond to things.
And that was really important to me.
And that's really been important in my businesscareer because as I, you know, I finished my
MBA many, many years ago, and and immediatelywanted to go to work and then chose to go to
(03:37):
work full time because I had a special needsson that was born in between my 1st and second
year, and he needed a lot from me.
And we had some disc discrimination in the raceand in the medical system back then, as well
before my last name was Jenkins, on the end ofthat.
(03:59):
And just sort of that lived experience, tookthat into the workplace.
Again, when I finally went to work full time, Iworked part time, And I sort of fell into the
startup world, and I loved it.
Like, I had to I was working in corporateAmerica.
I was doing really well.
And one of my customers recruited me away to astartup in 1997 when there were not enough
(04:24):
positions there was the y 2 k scare and theinternet bubble, and there were way more
technology positions than technologists, andthat's when I first jumped in the startup
world.
And never in a 1000000 years in 1997 could Ihave told you I would one day be a CEO.
Film.
So it wasn't one of those dreams that you said,hey, one day when I grow up, I'm gonna be a a
(04:49):
female CEO you just never thought about it.
You just kinda followed the pebbles in the roadthat landed you into, you know, I I know lots
of different projects, in with startups.
Yeah.
That first startup really kind of in my careerbecame very much sort of see a need for a need
(05:09):
and it's really sort of about this attitudethat later, you know, if I had been smarter or
if I'd been more marketing oriented, I wouldhave coined it better because it was more like,
well, it's sort of like mom leadership.
Right?
It's like and really good leadership skills,but to me, it's like being a good mom is like,
I my kids are different.
I want I expect I have the same expectation ofthe behavior, but how I motivate them is
(05:32):
different.
Employees are the same way.
You have the same expectation, but you can'ttalk to them the same.
They have different personalities.
You don't reward them the same.
They have different likes and, you know, so youhave to really treat people individually.
That doesn't mean you have differentexpectations of moments.
So I used to tell people, well, my leadershipskill, I said, like, mom, and that same thing
as a mom.
(05:52):
You see a need.
You just do it.
Right?
And so in my first executive role, it's like,well, I was over HR.
But people would start, and their laptopswouldn't be ready.
They wouldn't be imaged.
Their email wouldn't be set up, and I'd belike, I can solve this.
Oh, like, I keep fussing at IT.
But I can solve it.
See, you need, fill a need.
I'm technical enough.
I had programming classes, in my past.
(06:14):
And so I just started imaging laptops andsetting up emails on the exchange server, which
eventually led to me being over our ITdepartment, in addition to HR, It was just I
didn't set out to be over it, and then I endedup being over facilities because I was like,
well, this is frustrating, and we someone justneeds to fix it.
So I just that well, someone needs to do it.
(06:37):
Why not me?
Someone needs to clean the conference room,same thing.
Why not me?
Like, I can pick up a dish and wipe a table andLike, that's just sort of always been my style.
And so I I didn't really say, I wanna be a CEOone day, but I did say I see problems that I
want to fix, and eventually that became, well,like today, I lived the problems when I was in
(07:03):
cancer that my company now solves.
And so it's CND filling.
So you had said, in in our last, interview withForbes.
You had shared a little bit about your youryour mindset that you kind of your father
taught you some really valuable lessons, and Iremember you telling a story about, how he told
(07:25):
you to deal with problem And I'm just wonderingif you can share that that story that you had
said that he how he told you to think aboutproblems.
Well, I'm not even sure if I remember whichstory because I have so many stories.
Yeah.
But it but
the basic thing was that he was saying to youthat, you know, basically any anything is
solvable, but I remember you sharing that wholethat you adopted that quite early.
(07:51):
Yeah.
You know, my my dad's, you know, taught me so,so so many lessons.
My dad was such an amazing life force and sucha positive man, and my dad's was really very
big in my life about, you know, solving thelittle bits of the problem, but also not to get
all wrapped up in what everyone else thoughtabout me, but what did I think of myself?
(08:14):
And that was so important in my dad, I mean,you would say things to me, like, you're too
smart to get, like, don't get emotional.
And he wasn't trying to tell me not be a caringperson, Right?
He was just trying to make me tough.
And he would say, you know, you're, you'reyou're 2 something.
Like, you're you're too attractive when I wasyoung and little and all those things.
(08:36):
And he's like, but so the world's not gonnathink you're as smart as you are.
So don't let people rattle you.
And when when someone says not nice thingsabout Hispanics, how you respond to that is way
more important than what they said.
Like, there were a lot of times I would sit ina room and and people would not under realize,
(09:00):
my background, and they would say very nastythings about Hispanics.
And I I had to handle that.
And my dad was always wanting to say how yourespond.
You can elevate what they think.
Or you could respond in a way that to them isvalidating what they think.
And that lesson stayed with me always and notjust about my race.
(09:23):
But about any, any conflict, I am in control ofhow I respond to that situation.
I can't change the other person so much as Ican change and handle myself.
So I would think that, you know, from thatfirst comment with that teacher all the way up
potentially.
And like you said, visibly, people aren'taware.
(09:45):
And, you know, they maybe make derogatorycomments.
So you at that point, I would think had to makea decision.
Like, okay, am I going to, go where they'regoing or I'm just gonna have them have a
different interface.
And at some point, I would say it's deliveringthe fact that somewhere along the line, they're
they're gonna trip into the fact that yourheritage, part of your heritage is Hispanic.
(10:07):
So they would just learn it along the waysomewhere.
Well, I will tell you that I usually try tofind a very polite nonchalant way to almost
immediately bring it to their attention.
Even I mean, not just in business, but, one ofmy daughters, when she was in high school, had
(10:30):
a boyfriend who was at my house and said, verynice things about Mexicans.
And I looked at him, I called him by name, andI said, you realize you're standing in my
house.
Do you not know that I am Mexican?
And he sort of looked at me for a minute, andhe said, but aren't you well, you're the
(10:51):
exception.
I'm like, no.
No.
Would you like to hear hear about my family myfamily in Mexico.
They're, you know, and how successful they are.
Would you like to hear about my grandfather?
Because he volunteered to fight for thiscountry to be a US citizen.
Like, he volunteered.
He wanted to be here so badly.
He risked his life, and he was at Normandy, andmost of his troop died.
(11:12):
But he made it.
Like, you wanna know how proud of an American Iam, but I didn't wanna yell at him.
And, like, some of my friends were like, andand your daughter still gets to date him.
You didn't, like, kick him out of your house.
And I was like, well, here's the thing.
If I kick him out of my house, which don't getme wrong.
It crossed my mind.
But if I had, he was gonna go home to the verysame parents who had taught him this.
(11:39):
But if I could show him something better,something different, maybe it gives him food
for thought so that he can be different.
So, no, I did not forbid my daughter, fromdating him.
I did not forbid him from coming into my house,and he came they dated for many, many more
months, and I think he had a very differentperspective.
(12:00):
Do I think I turn him around 180?
No.
But I bet I got him at least 90 degrees.
It reflected some kind of change.
You know, you know, how can you quantify thatother than to your point, you have them him
interface with somebody that's really,addressing the concern or or what they're
saying out there to give them the possibilityof having a different perception potentially
(12:23):
instead of bowling them over where maybe thenthey're gonna go.
Here we go again kind of thing, validatingmaybe a stereotype that has maybe never been
challenged.
Now, as a young female executive, I'm surethere were roadblocks along the way.
Maybe 1, maybe 2.
I'm not sure, but, how did you deal with those?
(12:45):
Like, I understand the mindset.
Have that were there times where you kinda justreally knew you were hitting up against the
glass ceiling and, you know, were there timesthings that you maybe you look back and go, oh,
geez.
I did this not so well.
And this is how I what I learned from it.
For maybe, you know, young female executives orpeople in the c suite that are listening, to
(13:08):
the podcast today.
Oh, gosh.
I'm sure there are so many mistakes that I'vemade.
But one of the things I learned early was topractice.
You know how, like, we all are taught topractice for sales.
Right?
You all hear about, oh, if you're gonna sellsomething and in my first one of my first
professional, jobs.
(13:29):
They would put us on these phone banks.
That was a sales job, and you would do,practice sales calls, and they would reach
record them all, and then you would have tolisten to yourself, and then they would do a
video recording, and you would have to watchyourself.
And it was so you could learn it.
So but you were practicing to sell something.
But I learned to think about if things were togo wrong.
(13:51):
What might I say?
How might I behave important because sometimesI'm not caught unaware.
And I didn't like that feeling.
I didn't like coming up with an answer on thefly, and I don't think I've ever had the exact
scenario I practiced for in my head.
But that practice prepares you.
(14:13):
It's like any other emergency you might preparefor.
Right?
You you get all ready for the hurricane, Youget already what if there's a flood, you know,
what if?
Well, discrimination, if it's because of yourrace, or your looks, or because of your gender,
like, it's still it feels like an emergencywhen it happens, And so being prepared and
(14:37):
having thought about those scenarios andpracticed how you will respond for those
scenarios, was some of the most valuable thingsI think I ever did to be ready for those
scenarios.
It was like the the first time someone came into a boardroom and thought I was the secretary
(14:58):
there to take notes I I wasn't prepared tohandle that.
Not not that it wasn't the end of the world,but it was just that, like, that all of a
sudden being made to feel small.
And, like, they think I don't belong, and and Ilet them own that.
And it's like, no.
I'm not gonna do that anymore.
Like, how do I how should I have responded tothat?
(15:19):
So in the future, how do I respond to that?
And I really tried You know, when you thinkabout your, like, business, like, where things
go wrong, how do I pivot?
But I also think about if conversations mightnot go well or, you know, how how am I gonna
respond and how am I gonna handle?
Yeah.
So, like, almost like a role playing withyourself to potentially look at different
(15:44):
interactions that you might have.
And obviously, if, you know, you're you'retripping along, you know, doing your thing, and
then things are gonna present and generally,I'm gonna assume you probably float with a lot
of them, but sometimes you might get into ascenario where you're like, okay, I'm dealing
with this situation.
Like you said, with the coffee, And then you'relike, okay.
I can either be reactive, you know, or and getdefensive or maybe have a conversation that
(16:09):
allows the person to recognize.
Well, I'm actually not the person that getscoffee, but like you had said, you know, that
person's gonna probably be right in kind ofthing, which, again, is that I like the fact
that you reframe in such a way to say, okay.
Well, obviously this person is limited in theirperspective.
I'm gonna try to kind of have them seesomething different.
(16:31):
Yeah.
Like, in that instance, at that first time, Iwasn't real prepared, but in the future, it
happened more than once.
You know, if someone's like, oh, you know, andyou even sometimes get the honey, you know,
especially in the south.
Honey, could you go get me some coffee?
And I'd be like, oh, I don't drink coffee, butI'm sure when the executive assistant gets
here, she'd be happy to get some for you, youknow, a password.
(16:53):
Or, you know, I'm I'm happy to show you wherethe room is kind of pins, right, is the coffee
like right now in the hall, then I'm happy toshow you where it is.
You can go get your own cup, you know, so thenthey're like, oh, like, but not in a mean way,
not where it's like, Because otherwise, I'veput them on the defensive, so they're gonna put
a wall up between us.
And I don't want there to be a wall.
That just makes it now.
I've got a wall and a ceiling.
(17:18):
Yeah.
A lot of climbing over to do.
I really wanted to keep in mind what your longterm objective is.
Is my objective to alienate this person?
No.
Is my objective to demonstrate to this personthat we're equals, not because of our sex, but
because of our intellect and our role in thebusiness, that's my objective, which means I
(17:39):
need them to be open to receiving thatinformation from me.
That's a that's a really, really so that longterm view versus kinda getting into it with
that person based on, you know, maybe less thanideal behavior.
Now I'm curious, right?
Like you said, so you go on.
You're a senior executive and you're, like,you're you're, like you're saying, you're in HR
(18:01):
and then you get into IT and then you're in,you know, a facility, all that stuff just based
on you just taking on new new things thatneeded to get done.
At the point, you became a CEO.
I'm curious about that.
Right?
Because, obviously, I think there's differentyou that strategic level that you go from to
(18:21):
get to a CEO level.
Were there any kind of fears in your mind atthat point.
And and if there were any, how did how did youdeal with it?
Oh, so many.
And for me, what happened,
you know, I had done multiple startups where Iwas one of the co founders.
(18:42):
So I I hired everybody, even once I quitwearing the HR hat and I was running a P and L,
I was still always the HR expert, and I wasstill always involved in the hiring process as
one of the co founders.
So I I had teams that I had chosen.
And if they were good or bad, I was part of thereason that we had that team and and there to
(19:03):
deal with it.
When I was hired by a different company tobecome their CEO, like, wow, like, I'm the new
person on the block.
And so all of a sudden, it was like, I need tofind the right balance of authority, but not
shut down listening to other people.
(19:25):
You know, and it and so what's ourintimidating.
Like, they all know each other.
They've all known each other longer thanthey've known me.
And I had from since 1997, it had always beenthe opposite I was like, I've been there all
along.
And so it was very different feelings saying,how do I come in here And I'm not saying that
(19:46):
we're trying to be, like, best friends, butdefinitely friendly.
I believe in friendship and back and and thosethings in the workplace, but I need that.
But as a CEO and a first time CEO, I also needto not give up too much of my authority, and I
needed that balance.
And right out of the gate, and my my first timeas a CEO, There was, an internal candidate for
(20:11):
CEO that had been passed over to bring me intothe role.
And that became my biggest challenge, if youwill, because I'm, I was determined to win this
person over.
Like, they didn't get the job.
It wasn't my decision.
They didn't get the job, but, obviously, I gotthe job instead of that person.
(20:33):
And I'm like, I'm I'm gonna get this person onboard.
He's still here.
He's my head of sales, and I'm gonna him onboard.
I never did get him on board.
You know, he, he ended up resigning, and it wasprobably a good thing and I think I let it drag
on longer than it should have, and it was agood thing he like took himself, out of the
(20:56):
equation.
I just could not win him over.
But when he was gone, he was causing And and Idon't think, purpose.
I mean, he's a good guy.
Like, if I saw him today on the street, I wouldsay hi to him and would shake hands and catch
up and and whatnot.
(21:17):
But I think just that that frustration for himthat he didn't get the job was just too hard to
overcome.
And so that getting that activity, thatnegativity out of the office was really
helpful.
So we were an in person company back then.
So
Okay.
So that that that bandy between, I have tocreate a presence as the CEO I wanna be
(21:42):
connected, but I need to be able to show,authoritativeness.
Like, Were the things that you really had towork on for that subset of skills, or did you
find that it it because you've been in lots ofdifferent positions with startups that that
came, easily to you.
(22:04):
The connectivity, it was interesting.
And and what I say is, like, there were certainpeople in the company that we instantly had can
shift in connectivity.
There were a couple of people managers in thecompany that I'll tell you.
I I I think I had their respect, but nevermaybe connectivity from them.
(22:27):
Now we were a strategy execution softwarecompany.
So as far as, like, the accountability that waseasy, everyone had their objectives.
They were all used to that.
Like, holding people accountable forperformance was easy.
Trying to have a company team building eventwas harder than any place I'd ever been in my
(22:49):
life.
I'm like, it was so fascinating to me, like,once a quarter, we would go volunteer at the
food bank, but we had some employees who werelike, I'm not doing that.
Like, I they and they wouldn't do it.
We had we did 1 quarter.
We went to, one of those puzzle rooms, youknow, where you have to get you know, when we
went to eat and we went to a puzzle room, andthere were employees who, like, leaned against
(23:12):
the wall with their arms crossed, and they'relike, I'm not playing this stupid game.
You know, and it was like, wow.
I have, like, never seen this kind of attitudeat any of my other companies where someone's
like, I I won't even try.
Oh, and I'll tell you there were a couple ofthem that I never went over, but they did their
job as employees.
(23:33):
They met their objectives.
You wouldn't say that they were bad performers,but from a culture, company culture standpoint,
like, we just never connected.
Never.
And it felt like they never blended in.
It wasn't just me.
They never blended in to the company culture asa whole.
And so it was hard for me.
It was a struggle for me to say, are they theright employee then?
(23:56):
Like, but they're doing their job.
They're like, doing a good job at their job.
They're hitting their objectives.
They're not a bad employee, but they certainlydidn't elevate the culture.
They weren't maybe what you would call aculture ad.
They were maybe a culture detractor.
Mhmm.
Mhmm.
And that was hard.
That was really hard because I was used tobeing, you know, well liked, well respected,
(24:25):
you know, but again, there were people I hired,which is different, I guess.
You know?
So Right.
Because you're growing you're growing theculture from the ground up if it's startup
versus, like you said, when you're inheriting,the context of what with prior leadership and,
you know, I often say what is the context ofwhat's happened within the culture, the
business units changes.
There's so many variables.
(24:47):
And then, you know, you know, I talk aboutreturn on relationship, but ultimately, if
you're connected and you're doing all thethings that are key to to get people, you know,
to function optimally, not everybody's gonnawant to be as cohesive.
Some some people are like, you know, just leaveme in my kind of my back office.
I'm gonna get stuff stuff done, and I'm not thetype that likes to potentially play games, you
(25:11):
know, or do puzzles.
But I'm pretty good on my own kind of thing.
So it it really depends, and it's oftentimes anindividual thing as well.
Yeah.
It was really fascinating.
Prior to me, the previous CEO didn't havecompany events.
And I came out of a culture where we always hada quarterly mean, they had company meetings,
(25:32):
but they didn't do, like, fun team buildingactivities.
And, of course, you can imagine my HRbackground, and then I was vice president
customer sass.
I was doing team things for my customers, and,it's just kinda core to my nature.
And we always had these things at our companiesin the past, and they were always a huge hit.
And I'm like, I even would have I was I likeserving the employees.
(25:55):
I'm like, well, what do you wanna do?
And those few people were like, nothing.
Like, we've never had to do this before, and wedon't wanna do it.
And you're sitting there going, well, when theywere hired, they didn't they were not their
expectations were not set that they needed todo this.
And so then how do I come in and penalize themor not wanting to do it, but it always felt
(26:16):
awkward.
So and I would like to think, had I been therelonger?
I wanted turned it around, but I'll never knowbecause I was, you know, I got cancer while I
was at that company.
And so I didn't have the tenure there as CEOthat I would have expected to have.
This was such a great interview that we decidedto turn it into a 2 part series.
(26:38):
Be sure to tune in next week for part 2 so youdon't miss out on the amazing content.
Thanks for tuning to authentic living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
(27:01):
We'll see you next time.
Unauthentic living with Roxanne.
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