November 30, 2024 • 38 mins
In this episode, Roxanne Derhodge converses with Jackie Ferguson about the challenges and importance of implementing Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives in businesses. They discuss the role of authenticity, the ongoing nature of the DEI journey, and the value of a growth mindset. The conversation also touches on the perspectives of Gen Z and the importance of diversity of thought.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, aplace where we have as conversations about
things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
(00:37):
Everyone, it's Roxanne Durgesh.
Thanks for tuning in again this week.
Today, I have a colleague Jackie Ferguson.
Jackie and I both belongs to the forms ofexecutive councils, and we were able, and I
should say I was privileged to have her as partof a a DEI, meeting that we had not too long
ago, which was really, really well received.
(00:58):
So I asked Jackie to come in So we can chat alittle bit further about some of the concerns
that we're seeing, around what she does in herbusiness and diversity movement around DEI.
So, Jackie, thanks so much, for coming on todayand spending some time with us.
Roxanne, I'm so glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
(01:18):
So tell us, tell us a little bit about kind of,you know, Diversities, I will, you know, I'm
this sounds hard, harsh, but it's the topic.
It's the hot topic.
It is.
Even though it shouldn't be a hot topic, butit's
it's
always so necessary.
And, obviously, we know what the change intimes, how what a need that has been.
(01:42):
But I wanna jump right in and not get into, youknow, we know with, George Floyd, that you
know, obviously, that this is something thatneeded to be highlighted, but it, talks took
such adversity for that to happen.
But I was, just reading some research aroundMcKinsey and and Deloitte, and what they're
saying is The reality is everybody knows thatthis is necessary.
(02:05):
There's been a lot of things put out to themarketplace about things that should be done.
And then there's the reality of what'shappening.
So I would like to kind of just dive in andtalk a little bit about what you're seeing in
reference to what's happening in themarketplace around diversity.
Sure.
Well, Roxanne, I think that, you know, afterthe murder of George Floyd and others and the
(02:26):
spotlight on racial injustice was placed on oursociety.
I think that organizations felt that, that pushfrom their employees and from their consumers
and clients to really step into the a realmthat was new, right, with is, speaking about
(02:48):
current events and things that are happening insociety and and providing them, that's the
support they needed and so a lot of companiesmade commitments to DEI, certainly put out
those diversity statements and then got intothe work and realized, you know, it's hard.
(03:09):
Right?
As you think about, shifting your culture,especially for companies that have been around
for a while.
And as you think about, change leadership.
Right?
We think about change management, but it youcan't manage change in people, but you can lead
a change.
And that's hard as well.
(03:30):
And and so, you know, and and then in additionto that, on top of that, you've got the, you
know, dealing with people's long held beliefs alot of times and long held behaviors which now
you're encouraging the shift and all of that ishard.
And I think that a lot of companies didn'tunderstand or realize or have the support that
(03:56):
they needed to make these changes.
And so you know, understanding how to implementroll out and then continue to make progress in
your DEI initiatives requires, some time andexpertise.
And so I think that a lot of companies didn'trealize that and then also you don't see those
(04:20):
changes right away Roxanne.
It takes time.
Studies show that it's about 3 years to seereal progress in your DEI initiatives.
Now you can see progress up through those 3years, but to really feel that shift takes
about 3 years.
So, you know, we're 2 years in now.
(04:41):
So for organizations that really made thatcommitment and and have been putting in the
effort for education and change and integratingit throughout their organization, they should
start seeing those those real changes now.
So tell me, like, if it's it's it's almostlike, steps or levels.
(05:05):
Right?
The, oh my goodness, we're in crises.
To alright.
Let's, you know, have a DEI, you know, supportperson to a maybe a DEI officer to now, how
does this kinda fit into our overall strategicplan?
So what might people experience?
(05:26):
Let's say people went into crisis, which Ithink everybody did, you know, with George
Floyd.
What would be the difference that if let's sayI'm a novice, I have no idea.
I'm thinking about starting to join a company,and I wanna make the best decision about where
my, strengths and my leverage and what I valuebeing diversity and inclusion.
(05:49):
I've tried I'm trying to decide which companyto go with.
So if I'm meeting the person at the initial andI'm meeting the person in the middle and I'm
meeting the person that's really kinda at thelast quarter mile, let's say.
What what should I be kind of looking for atthese different stages?
Yeah.
The most important thing to get started is tomake sure that you've got the buy in from your
(06:13):
C suite and understand the benefit to DEI,successful DEI to your organization.
So if you think about C suite, of course,everyone thinks about the CEO.
Right?
So there are studies that show Roxanne thedifference in profitability, which matters to
your CEO.
Right?
Profitability is important.
(06:36):
Right there around happy employees, employeesthat feel valued and feel, a sense of belonging
at the organization.
If you think about your CFO, they they do a lotaround compliance and risk Right?
And if you've got a strong DEI program, you'reavoiding some of these, harassment claims and,
(06:59):
you know, discrimination claims.
When you're thinking about marketing, so yourCMO, you're you're gonna think about, your
brand reputation.
Expanding your market reach to include morediverse people, which is how our society is
trending.
Right?
We're more diverse than we ever have beenbefore.
(07:20):
And, you know, in the next, I would say, 5 to 7years, the shift will change to where,
culturally diverse people will be more thanthan non culturally diverse people.
And so how are you managing that from from amarketing standpoint and making sure that
you're messaging those folks that, you know,have different habits, right, even Gen Z coming
(07:46):
into the workplace.
You've gotta think about them.
From a employee perspective and also from amarket reach perspective.
And they wanna know that the organizations thatthey work for in support have those same value
alignments that they do, because that'sextremely important to them.
So as you go through your C suite, you need toknow what message resonates with each of those
(08:12):
folks And then from there, you wanna make surethat your DEI strategy is integrated within
your organization, your full organization.
And Roxanne, the way to do that is tounderstand your your, analytics for DEI.
So understanding how to measure the sentimentgoing into your DEI program of your employees.
(08:37):
You know, people that are very excited about itand, you know, certainly after all that
occurred in the summer of 2020, you know, a lotof organizations that were excited about, you
know, implementing these programs thought thattheir full, you know, employee base was also as
excited as they were, and and a lot of themfound out that was not the case.
(09:00):
So understanding what that really looks like,how to communicate is important, and then
understand what you're measuring, what youshould be measuring, so that you can create a
good baseline for where you're really starting.
Right?
A lot of times executives think they understandthe sentiment of their employees, right, but
sometimes that can be off.
(09:21):
And so you wanna understand what you've reallygot, where you're really starting, and then
create your plan based on where yourorganization is.
And there is not a one size fits all plan.
Each organization is different.
The way they communicate is different.
The way their culture is built is different.
And so it's a, you know, It's a one company ata time, you know, one step at a time situation.
(09:49):
You know, I'm curious, right, and when yousaid, of course, the business you know, the
business strategy, if you're speaking tomarketing, speaking their terms, if you're
talking to finance, speaking numbers, this theCEO, you give a synthesis of every kind of, you
know, lines that you need him or her to to toget.
Absolutely.
You know, what I'm curious about though is whenyou have a diverse C suite versus, maybe a more
(10:14):
homogeneous C suite.
How is that?
Because I I would find that quite fascinatingbecause, like, for instance, like, I'm from
Trinidad and Tobago.
So I'm I grew up diverse.
Right?
Like, I grew up with every color of therainbow.
Like, one friend was Chinese.
The other was, you know, European, then there'sme, then there's you know, half, you know,
(10:35):
African, half Chinese, half Indian.
So every I'll say that we were always therainbow because of the diversity that went to
the island.
So when you get around someone that's diverse,there's a certain permeation that happens just
because you know, their their mindset isdifferent to begin with.
I've always thought of differences beingnormal.
(10:57):
Mhmm.
Absolutely.
You know, I'm cure I'm curious when you'veworked with C Suites where there's been a more
homogeneity where it's kinda like, okay, let'slet's think about these concepts.
Let's think about innovation.
Let's think about diversity of thoughts let'sthink about how we can bring a different
perspective.
That's one thing.
But when you already have the diversity in thatroom, how does that play out?
(11:19):
Yeah.
That's that's a a great question.
And Roxanne, I love that you brought up thatyou grew up in in a diverse society.
Not everyone has that benefit.
So a lot of times people are starting indifferent places, understanding how to just
communicate and interact with people that aredifferent than they are.
(11:39):
And so, you know, starting there, what whatyou'll wanna do, from an organization that's
homogeneous versus one that has the benefit ofbeing diverse.
The the one thing that I I'd like to say isthat diversity is broad.
So when we think about diversity, very oftenwe're thinking about race or gender or sexual
(12:00):
orientation, but personality is a an aspect ofdiversity.
Disability is an aspect of diversity, anddisability is a is a part of, the, you know,
the diversity dimension that any of us canbecome a part of at any point in our lives
through age, accident, diagnosis.
(12:21):
And so for organizations, you know, the theemployees and the prospective employees that
are coming into those organizations want tofeel comfortable that they, you know, will get
that support and and be allowed to thrive evenas their life changes.
Right?
Parental status is, you know, an aspect ofdiversity.
(12:45):
And you want an organization that can move withyou as you go through your life.
And I think that's one of the reasons whythere's so much movement, in your employee base
and so much turnover because they're they'relooking for that home and that sense of
belonging.
But for organizations, Roxanne that arediverse, studies show and a lot of studies show
(13:09):
in so many different aspects that thatdiversity of thought, that diversity of
experience, that diversity of, you know, howyou solve problems benefits an organization
from a, revenue standpoint, from an innovationstandpoint, from a creativity standpoint, from
that sense of belonging standpoint, becausewhen you see diversity at the top, those middle
(13:34):
managers, those individual contributors can seethat There is a trajectory for them to succeed
and grow within that organization and they workharder and they look for those those stretch
assignments Whereas when you see all of thesame, those culturally diverse people that are
in your your middle wrongs, you know, it's It'sfrustrating for them because they're they're
(13:58):
not sure how high they can move within thatorganization.
And I often say that sometimes my Caribbeanupbringing gave me a different mindset because
I thought anything was possible.
So I, you know, So, of course, I have, theythink Middle Eastern, but mostly Indian
background from India with a indenturedlaborers, which you know, so the trajectory of
(14:20):
what's happened with slavery and into denturelaborers, many other than supposedly promise of
land, really there was A lot the the conditionswere harsh at best for my ancestors.
But the thing is what happened in order tosurvive, and this is the history with the
Caribbean, and I any Caribbean peoplelistening, they're probably gonna say I'm
botching it up, but there was this element ofthat you had in order to survive, you had to
(14:45):
embrace different.
So there's that mindset that comes from theCaribbean in that, you know, you may be Hindu
or Muslim or black or Chinese or MiddleEastern, you know, after a while, you know, we
we turned out the term as kaoalou in a way,which is a a dish.
It's a dish.
But it's really a blending of everything.
(15:07):
And that cool concept that, well, my brothercould be black or he could be white, even
though there was the backdrop of colonialism.
Mhmm.
Right.
And so when I came to Canada when I was sixteento go to school, And then people would say,
well, I can't do that.
And I'm like, well, well, why why can't you dothat?
Why couldn't you, you know, go on and do X Y OZat university?
(15:31):
Because Oh, that doesn't happen.
So it was a mindset, that was a bit different,even though that we have the same backdrop, So
again, culture, like to your point,acculturation, potentially what my exposure was
say, versus growing up in North America aswell.
Absolutely Roxanne.
(15:52):
And, you know, the thing that is so pervasiveand insidious the narratives that not only are
told about us, but are are shared to us and andare part of us where, you know, we've gotta
really work to break through that in order tobelieve as in ourselves to achieve as much as
(16:15):
we can because there's so much that's told tous that we're we're not good enough.
We we can't succeed.
We can't do these things.
And especially here in the United States,systems are set up that create disadvantage for
us.
And so the combination of all of those things,it's frustrating, you know, and and it's you
(16:39):
know, it's a it's a pervasive negativity thatwe really have to work to one overcome for
ourselves.
But 2, overcome in society because there are somany of us that are doing amazing things, have
wonderful things to contribute.
(16:59):
And because we, you know, see ourselves inthese these boxes, Right?
It it makes it difficult to branch out and beable to understand other perspectives which is
something that you had the benefit of growingup in a a multicultural society.
You know, there were lots of perspectives, lotsof ideas, that were shared.
(17:24):
And there's just a different level of comfortin growing up that way versus having to now
understand that and embrace that.
It's it's a little challenging, and a littlescary.
Sometimes, to be honest, for, organizationalleaders that are doing it for the first time.
(17:46):
Absolutely.
And having those conversations, I said, if yougrow up and you're imbued in Dur diversity, you
think, well, why is this an issue?
My my friends, from Trinidad, and we still geton the line, and we're like, why they, you
know, it's so different.
Even though we know this systemicunderpinnings, absolutely.
Yes.
And that existed in Trinidad as well.
(18:07):
But I think because, you know, my my primeminister was black, my dentist was Chinese, my
position was Indian, And so it didn't matterwhere you went.
Right?
Like, I mean, you were consistently around it.
And then if you meet someone from my island,you'll know it's a trinity.
Like, we joke around because we have the sameway of thinking again, but it's all different
(18:29):
cultures, right, like, and ethnicity.
So it shows you And when I speak about,authenticity, I talk about just going from the
heart because ultimately, you know, that's thespace that we we all want that space within,
you know, whether, we're out with our childrenor we're running a company or we're on teens.
(18:50):
What is it?
I just want, to be uniquely who I am.
And if you can't have a conversation about whoI am and you were to see me, visibly, you know,
you're gonna treat me differently not knowingmy background.
So you take someone just like me that say wasborn in the US.
Our realities have been completely different inso many ways.
(19:12):
So I think that's what I talk about is youknow, getting comfortable enough to have the
conversation to say, hey, Jackie.
Where are you where are you from?
You know?
Yeah.
You know, or, you know, tell me a bit aboutyou.
How did you grow up?
Did you have a big family, a small family?
Did you, you know, what are the things thatmake you you?
And I think to your point, if you have peoplethat are comfortable to get there, that's one
(19:34):
thing.
But if you're just kind of stepping into it andit's a recipe, That's a whole other thing.
And there's a lot of tiptoeing around thingsthat eventually when people come from the
heart, it's it's easier to get to.
I I love that.
And authenticity is such an important word inthis work Roxanne because ultimately everything
(19:57):
that you're doing is establishing arelationship of trust.
And you have to be authentic in yourrelationships When when I ask you how you're
doing, I really mean it.
I wanna know how you're doing.
It's not something that I'm just checking offmy list.
Right?
And and you have to also be vulnerableyourself.
(20:17):
So if you're looking for information about meand and want me to share with you, then you
should share with me.
And so that's something that give and take isso important.
And it's important for, individuals who don'thave that experience with multicultural
societies to really, you know, becomecomfortable with.
(20:39):
So that they can have those open dialogues andlearn some new things and see the world through
other perspectives because we all see throughour own, you know, lens of experience.
Right?
And so to really be able to be a person who isempathetic And and that's part of the work in
(20:59):
DEI, whether it's in, you know, yourcommunities or in your, corporations.
You you've gotta open and broaden yourperspective a little bit, and you certainly can
do that well through conversations.
So again, authenticity is such an importantword, in this work.
(21:20):
And, you know, and music, right, like, youknow, I think about the things that cut through
our souls.
Right?
So, obviously, going back again to my history,there's Calypso.
Right?
Well, Calypso and carnival, which is, you know,came out of it came out as, basically slavery.
Right?
So I pay it, you know, I'm the typicalCaribbean kid.
I play steel pan.
(21:40):
Right?
So I grew up, you know, and they you guys callit, a band.
We call it a side.
So I grew up playing the steel drums.
I came to Canada.
I I toured Canada with my high school, went tothe parliament buildings when I was thirteen
years old.
And we did a cultural exchange was everythingfrom African dance to, combination of choirs I
(22:03):
played, you know, Haban Nagila along with, youknow, the Canadian anthem on the steel Yeah.
Right.
So, you know, so when you kinda start to lookat it from there, and I I often say my lens is
that what an opportunity because it's it's, youknow, when you meet somebody that is not like
(22:23):
you, there's such wealth within them, but butoftentimes that space of I don't know what to
ask or I don't know how to be if you can justbe yourself and open up your heart, which is
like what you said is core fundamental ofgetting to trust, which is I wanna feel good on
the inside just like you.
Yes.
(22:43):
But that takes that takes work and time andmetrics has to get out of the wind.
Taxi tactics have to find its spot and thebottom line and and boards and all that stuff
gets mixed up in there.
But, you know, I I think cutting through it toget to who are you, And how is it that I can
help you shine through so you can just let meunderstand who you are is what I see as being
(23:08):
very, very important.
And music is a good way to do that.
You know?
Absolutely.
And, you know, that's so great, Roxanne,because ultimately in order to do this work,
you've gotta find the baseline that people canall agree on.
Right?
And people love music.
That's a that's a a great way to find that youknow, let's where where is the point of
(23:30):
agreement?
And for DEI, that point of agreement usually isDo you believe that people are entitled to be
respected?
Feel safe and feel that their contributions arevalued at work, and you usually, you're gonna
get a yes there.
So from there, that's where the work starts, nomatter where people are on that spectrum of
(23:54):
having experience location level is on thatdiversity journey.
That is the fundamental baseline that peoplecan agree on.
And then the work begins from there.
So at the 3rd stage of, like you said, the year3, I would assume that that foundation has been
(24:18):
built.
So I guess I'm gonna assume policies are inalignment.
You're gonna have some basic communicationcapacity.
You're gonna start with your C suite, like yousaid.
And then obviously, then you're gonna go tomiddle management, you know, in front line.
You're gonna of course, that takes a lot oftime because you gotta kinda work off the kinks
between every level.
So Let's say you're a a senior leader or a CEOlistening to this and you're thinking, I think
(24:46):
we do some of it.
Mhmm.
We have touch points.
What would your advice be to someone like thatto say what I I'm listening to Jackie and
Roxanne.
I'm realizing how many things we have attemptedor some of it that we've done well, but boy,
we've dropped the ball And it's not becausewe're really not trying, but it's because we're
(25:06):
not aware of some of the things that we shouldbe keeping our eye eye on.
What what would you say to someone like that?
Absolutely.
So a couple of things that Roxanne down.
1, you're gonna be chasing progress overperfection.
You're not gonna get it all right.
You're not gonna hit the mark on every singleinitiative in your DEI journey that you want.
(25:28):
And that's okay.
The most important thing is to be authentic, asyou said, be vulnerable and share communication
throughout what you're doing, why you're doingit, what's been the progress, whether it's big
progress, small progress, no progress.
Us.
What, you know, what are some of the thingsthat you're gonna change?
(25:48):
What are some of the things that you're gonnatry?
That communication is key throughout yourentire DEI journey because you've gotta gain
buy in from C suite to your middle managers,which are very important part of the process,
because they ensure you know, that DEI strategyis rolled out day to day and acted upon by your
(26:10):
individual contributors.
And, you know, so then measuring is soimportant because, again, even small movement,
can have exponential value to your organizationfrom what that means from, a productivity
standpoint, from an innovation standpoint, youknow, from a a cohesiveness standpoint.
(26:35):
And so you're gonna wanna make sure that you'remeasuring everything from your diversity data
to your equity, equity policies.
For example, if you look at your HR policies,you know, many of those policies have been
pulled in from, you know, other organizationsor the organization you worked in before.
(26:58):
It's been the same, you know, time off policyfor 20 years.
Right?
But those policies need to be reviewed becauseYou know, our families look different.
Our, you know, our lifestyles are different.
The things that we're responsible for aredifferent.
And we wanna make sure that those policies arereflective of, you know, who we are as
(27:24):
individuals and as families that are part ofthe organization.
And then, you know, the inclusion piece is soimportant in making sure that you are creating
that, culture where people feel valued and theyfeel safe, which is you think that's su
(27:44):
fundamental But a lot of employees, especiallywho are part of the LGBTQ plus, community don't
feel safe in there are places of work.
And so those are some of the the basics thatyou wanna be communication measurements so
important.
And then once you get to that year 3, you'll beable to see real progress and then determine,
(28:08):
okay, where do we wanna dig in from here?
These are things that are going right.
These are things that we've not been supersuccessful at yet.
Let's, you know, do some remix of of what ourplans and strategies are.
And, you know, dig into this new, this newparadigm.
But again, DEI is a journey.
(28:28):
You're never gonna get to the finish line.
It's continual.
It's a process.
It has to do with people, and people areevolving, you know, and our societies thing.
And so you've gotta just maintain, yourcommitment to that to that journey.
You know what?
It just came to me, and I just think I'mlistening to you.
(28:49):
You know, what about, you know, the stories inreference to the business units?
Mhmm.
And sharing that as you as let's say you'reyou're making progress.
And from a marketing perspective, if you coulddo a pre and a post and a process, right, and
show it in reference to outcome.
I I think how how beautiful would that be ifyou kinda looked at it and you looked at how
(29:12):
you shifted the impact you had, how it touchedall the different parts of the business units
in the business, and then ultimately what itdid to your business out there in in in kind of
the world.
That would be a beautiful kind of thing inreference to marketing.
Yeah.
Roxanne, that's absolutely right.
And, again, that story should be told thatcommunication should occur internally.
(29:33):
It should occur externally because if you'rethinking about, you know, your existing
employees, They wanna know, you know, what arewe doing?
You know, we've got these extra things thatwe've gotta learn, and we've gotta implement,
and we've gotta do so what's the progress thatwe're making as a whole?
And then also the external communication isequally important from, you know, your your
(29:58):
brand reputation, from how you're recruiting,you know, the best and the brightest who are
prioritizing DEI and the companies that theywanna work for.
And so that communication piece is so importantand share those stories share your progress,
share your wins, share the things that haven'tgone well that, you know, you're gonna try a
(30:20):
different way.
That is all part of that authenticity, Roxanne,that
you know.
That transparency.
That transparency.
Right?
Like, you talked a little bit about narrativesand narratives are based on mindsets.
And I think, you know, the part that I thinkabout is, like, if you when, I shouldn't say
if, and I believe that most companies wanna dothis, when you start to make that shift and you
(30:44):
create that as evolutionary story about whatyou created based on what you've been exposed
to.
Like, I I always go back.
You can't go back to not knowing.
And then you you let people know as you goalong, and then you ask for feedback.
Obviously, in whatever way that works for yourorganization, the the breadth and depth that
you can get to.
(31:04):
And even for things that you think you're doingwell, And then you realize, boy, that's not
working so well because people are going alongand they're being complicit, but in fact, it's
it's it's maybe helping 45% of the people, butnot the other 65 to tweak those things become
very, very important.
And I think, you know, you know, the stories,the the how you seeing the brand, how people
(31:26):
are perceiving you, how, you know, across fromthe, you know, lunch table.
Now if people are back together at work, ableto talk about it versus thinking, oh, well, I
can't ask Roxanne that because I'm not sureshe's gonna say that.
And maybe I'm gonna you know, maybe I'm gonnaput her off because if you're coming from a
place of I'm just a normal human being thatreally, really, wants to know who you are,
(31:50):
Jackie, that that comes across from a adifferent deeper, deeper soul space as well.
Absolutely.
And Roxanne, you know, that made me think ofgrowth mindset, right, We, as leaders, have to
have a growth mindset in order to move ourorganizations into, you know, this next 10
(32:10):
years.
You know, we have to create sustainablebusiness and part of creating sustainable
business.
Is understanding the shifts and the trends thatare occurring in society and, you know, trends
in how, you know, we work trends and how, youknow, we absorb data and information trends in,
(32:33):
you know, what we do, in our downtime.
Those things change over time.
Right?
And one of the examples that I use so often isblockbuster.
Right?
And I'm a a genxer, And I remember spending myFriday night at Blockbuster getting my, you
know, 2 new releases in my skittles.
Right?
And now, you know, the the situation thatoccurred was that Netflix went to blockbuster,
(32:58):
and blockbuster said, no.
That's that's not gonna change.
Right?
And unfortunately, that's what happens withsome leaders now around DEI.
I don't know that I have to get into DEI.
Right?
And so and but, unfortunately, for them, youknow, that that is going to create issues with
(33:18):
longevity of their business because You know,again, with gen z coming into the workplace,
where they wanna work, the brands they wannapatronize, have to be really aligned with their
values differently than any other generationbefore.
And so to create sustainable business, you haveto have that growth mindset and DEI as part of
(33:41):
that.
And I think, you know, a lot of companies havebeen successful without the strategy in the
past for them to be aware that it's it'slooking at your point is if diversity and
inclusion, we're knowing that, like you said,the the demographic of the world is shifting.
And I know definitely the US probably the same.
(34:04):
So if that's the case, you can you can look atit and say, oh, well, we've been successful, or
you can say, okay.
What has it done I need to be aware of.
And if I'm not so good at collating theinformation, what pulses do I have to get make
sure we have out there so that things arecoming back to us that maybe we're not even
thinking about.
And I think sometimes the gen zeds are the bestfor that.
(34:26):
In that they they they're, like, thinking insuch a different way.
And talking to younger generations, it'ssometimes, I think, wow, how How do you think
like that?
Because they have such a different perspective.
Right?
So I think it's, like, you you're right.
Diversity of thought comes in packaged in somany different ways.
So it's not just a racialized.
(34:47):
That's obviously the one that's the biggest onethat's imminent, but it's it's all around us,
but ultimately it's understanding thatindividual and what what they're gonna bring
with them regardless of how what diversity,whether it's invisible or visible that they're
they're bringing, out there to to theworkplace.
Absolutely, Roxanne.
That's well said.
(35:07):
So I know you and I can probably keep chatting.
Now for people that are interested and arethinking, well, we're at different point like
Jackie's saying that they're wanting to, maybereach out to consult, kind of know where
they're at.
Where where's the best place, Jackie, for themto
get ahold of you?
Certainly.
So you can go to the diversity movement.com andjust reach out to us there.
(35:32):
It'll give you lots of great information, forfree.
You can you can go to our webinars.
We do webinars every month.
We provide lots of free content that will helpyou on your journey.
And then you can certainly reach out to us, andwe can talk to you about what might be right
for your organization.
And, again, every organization is different.
(35:54):
There is not a cookie cutter approach, so We'dlove an opportunity to just have a conversation
with you, see what your goals are, and and helpyou work towards them.
Well, thanks so much again.
So what what are the what am I walk walkingaway with?
I'm walking away with.
It's It's not perfection, it's progress.
Now look at where you're at, tell the stories,like we talked a little bit about And, you
(36:19):
know, as the leader or, part of the C suite,think what is it that I can bring forward that
might help others, even though I'm thinking Imay not be diverse.
It may be something that you've experiencedwhen you're out there in the world and you
think, wow, this is something I'd never thoughtabout.
Bring it back have that open conversation.
(36:40):
And I think we all have to be open to the factthat we're gonna learn till the day we die.
So just be recognizing that wherever you go, ifit if it's an experience in the world or, you
know, seeing someone interact differently,bring it back, have conversations about it.
And because ultimately, like we said, all wewanna do as human beings is to have that
(37:00):
experience of being accepted there.
We wanna be valued.
We want our lights to shine and allow thatspace within your companies and, reach out to
Jackie if that's something that you're wanting.
With myself, you know, I talk aboutauthenticity.
I talk about, my book, the ROR, which is thereturn on relationships is about to be
(37:21):
released.
So if you're wanting to know about,authenticity in your relationships, just go to
roxanderahodge.comforward/ quiz with 1 q 11zed.
Sorry.
And it'll pop you right into a littleassessment.
We'll send you some information Again, Jackie,thanks so much.
And take care, everyone.
We'll chat with you soon.
K.
Bye bye.
Bye.
(37:43):
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
rocksandirhaj.com/blueprint.
We'll see you next time.
On authentic living with Roxanne.
Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, aplace where we have as conversations about
things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
(00:37):
Everyone, it's Roxanne Durgesh.
Thanks for tuning in again this week.
Today, I have a colleague Jackie Ferguson.
Jackie and I both belongs to the forms ofexecutive councils, and we were able, and I
should say I was privileged to have her as partof a a DEI, meeting that we had not too long
ago, which was really, really well received.
(00:58):
So I asked Jackie to come in So we can chat alittle bit further about some of the concerns
that we're seeing, around what she does in herbusiness and diversity movement around DEI.
So, Jackie, thanks so much, for coming on todayand spending some time with us.
Roxanne, I'm so glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
(01:18):
So tell us, tell us a little bit about kind of,you know, Diversities, I will, you know, I'm
this sounds hard, harsh, but it's the topic.
It's the hot topic.
It is.
Even though it shouldn't be a hot topic, butit's
it's
always so necessary.
And, obviously, we know what the change intimes, how what a need that has been.
(01:42):
But I wanna jump right in and not get into, youknow, we know with, George Floyd, that you
know, obviously, that this is something thatneeded to be highlighted, but it, talks took
such adversity for that to happen.
But I was, just reading some research aroundMcKinsey and and Deloitte, and what they're
saying is The reality is everybody knows thatthis is necessary.
(02:05):
There's been a lot of things put out to themarketplace about things that should be done.
And then there's the reality of what'shappening.
So I would like to kind of just dive in andtalk a little bit about what you're seeing in
reference to what's happening in themarketplace around diversity.
Sure.
Well, Roxanne, I think that, you know, afterthe murder of George Floyd and others and the
(02:26):
spotlight on racial injustice was placed on oursociety.
I think that organizations felt that, that pushfrom their employees and from their consumers
and clients to really step into the a realmthat was new, right, with is, speaking about
(02:48):
current events and things that are happening insociety and and providing them, that's the
support they needed and so a lot of companiesmade commitments to DEI, certainly put out
those diversity statements and then got intothe work and realized, you know, it's hard.
(03:09):
Right?
As you think about, shifting your culture,especially for companies that have been around
for a while.
And as you think about, change leadership.
Right?
We think about change management, but it youcan't manage change in people, but you can lead
a change.
And that's hard as well.
(03:30):
And and so, you know, and and then in additionto that, on top of that, you've got the, you
know, dealing with people's long held beliefs alot of times and long held behaviors which now
you're encouraging the shift and all of that ishard.
And I think that a lot of companies didn'tunderstand or realize or have the support that
(03:56):
they needed to make these changes.
And so you know, understanding how to implementroll out and then continue to make progress in
your DEI initiatives requires, some time andexpertise.
And so I think that a lot of companies didn'trealize that and then also you don't see those
(04:20):
changes right away Roxanne.
It takes time.
Studies show that it's about 3 years to seereal progress in your DEI initiatives.
Now you can see progress up through those 3years, but to really feel that shift takes
about 3 years.
So, you know, we're 2 years in now.
(04:41):
So for organizations that really made thatcommitment and and have been putting in the
effort for education and change and integratingit throughout their organization, they should
start seeing those those real changes now.
So tell me, like, if it's it's it's almostlike, steps or levels.
(05:05):
Right?
The, oh my goodness, we're in crises.
To alright.
Let's, you know, have a DEI, you know, supportperson to a maybe a DEI officer to now, how
does this kinda fit into our overall strategicplan?
So what might people experience?
(05:26):
Let's say people went into crisis, which Ithink everybody did, you know, with George
Floyd.
What would be the difference that if let's sayI'm a novice, I have no idea.
I'm thinking about starting to join a company,and I wanna make the best decision about where
my, strengths and my leverage and what I valuebeing diversity and inclusion.
(05:49):
I've tried I'm trying to decide which companyto go with.
So if I'm meeting the person at the initial andI'm meeting the person in the middle and I'm
meeting the person that's really kinda at thelast quarter mile, let's say.
What what should I be kind of looking for atthese different stages?
Yeah.
The most important thing to get started is tomake sure that you've got the buy in from your
(06:13):
C suite and understand the benefit to DEI,successful DEI to your organization.
So if you think about C suite, of course,everyone thinks about the CEO.
Right?
So there are studies that show Roxanne thedifference in profitability, which matters to
your CEO.
Right?
Profitability is important.
(06:36):
Right there around happy employees, employeesthat feel valued and feel, a sense of belonging
at the organization.
If you think about your CFO, they they do a lotaround compliance and risk Right?
And if you've got a strong DEI program, you'reavoiding some of these, harassment claims and,
(06:59):
you know, discrimination claims.
When you're thinking about marketing, so yourCMO, you're you're gonna think about, your
brand reputation.
Expanding your market reach to include morediverse people, which is how our society is
trending.
Right?
We're more diverse than we ever have beenbefore.
(07:20):
And, you know, in the next, I would say, 5 to 7years, the shift will change to where,
culturally diverse people will be more thanthan non culturally diverse people.
And so how are you managing that from from amarketing standpoint and making sure that
you're messaging those folks that, you know,have different habits, right, even Gen Z coming
(07:46):
into the workplace.
You've gotta think about them.
From a employee perspective and also from amarket reach perspective.
And they wanna know that the organizations thatthey work for in support have those same value
alignments that they do, because that'sextremely important to them.
So as you go through your C suite, you need toknow what message resonates with each of those
(08:12):
folks And then from there, you wanna make surethat your DEI strategy is integrated within
your organization, your full organization.
And Roxanne, the way to do that is tounderstand your your, analytics for DEI.
So understanding how to measure the sentimentgoing into your DEI program of your employees.
(08:37):
You know, people that are very excited about itand, you know, certainly after all that
occurred in the summer of 2020, you know, a lotof organizations that were excited about, you
know, implementing these programs thought thattheir full, you know, employee base was also as
excited as they were, and and a lot of themfound out that was not the case.
(09:00):
So understanding what that really looks like,how to communicate is important, and then
understand what you're measuring, what youshould be measuring, so that you can create a
good baseline for where you're really starting.
Right?
A lot of times executives think they understandthe sentiment of their employees, right, but
sometimes that can be off.
(09:21):
And so you wanna understand what you've reallygot, where you're really starting, and then
create your plan based on where yourorganization is.
And there is not a one size fits all plan.
Each organization is different.
The way they communicate is different.
The way their culture is built is different.
And so it's a, you know, It's a one company ata time, you know, one step at a time situation.
(09:49):
You know, I'm curious, right, and when yousaid, of course, the business you know, the
business strategy, if you're speaking tomarketing, speaking their terms, if you're
talking to finance, speaking numbers, this theCEO, you give a synthesis of every kind of, you
know, lines that you need him or her to to toget.
Absolutely.
You know, what I'm curious about though is whenyou have a diverse C suite versus, maybe a more
(10:14):
homogeneous C suite.
How is that?
Because I I would find that quite fascinatingbecause, like, for instance, like, I'm from
Trinidad and Tobago.
So I'm I grew up diverse.
Right?
Like, I grew up with every color of therainbow.
Like, one friend was Chinese.
The other was, you know, European, then there'sme, then there's you know, half, you know,
(10:35):
African, half Chinese, half Indian.
So every I'll say that we were always therainbow because of the diversity that went to
the island.
So when you get around someone that's diverse,there's a certain permeation that happens just
because you know, their their mindset isdifferent to begin with.
I've always thought of differences beingnormal.
(10:57):
Mhmm.
Absolutely.
You know, I'm cure I'm curious when you'veworked with C Suites where there's been a more
homogeneity where it's kinda like, okay, let'slet's think about these concepts.
Let's think about innovation.
Let's think about diversity of thoughts let'sthink about how we can bring a different
perspective.
That's one thing.
But when you already have the diversity in thatroom, how does that play out?
(11:19):
Yeah.
That's that's a a great question.
And Roxanne, I love that you brought up thatyou grew up in in a diverse society.
Not everyone has that benefit.
So a lot of times people are starting indifferent places, understanding how to just
communicate and interact with people that aredifferent than they are.
(11:39):
And so, you know, starting there, what whatyou'll wanna do, from an organization that's
homogeneous versus one that has the benefit ofbeing diverse.
The the one thing that I I'd like to say isthat diversity is broad.
So when we think about diversity, very oftenwe're thinking about race or gender or sexual
(12:00):
orientation, but personality is a an aspect ofdiversity.
Disability is an aspect of diversity, anddisability is a is a part of, the, you know,
the diversity dimension that any of us canbecome a part of at any point in our lives
through age, accident, diagnosis.
(12:21):
And so for organizations, you know, the theemployees and the prospective employees that
are coming into those organizations want tofeel comfortable that they, you know, will get
that support and and be allowed to thrive evenas their life changes.
Right?
Parental status is, you know, an aspect ofdiversity.
(12:45):
And you want an organization that can move withyou as you go through your life.
And I think that's one of the reasons whythere's so much movement, in your employee base
and so much turnover because they're they'relooking for that home and that sense of
belonging.
But for organizations, Roxanne that arediverse, studies show and a lot of studies show
(13:09):
in so many different aspects that thatdiversity of thought, that diversity of
experience, that diversity of, you know, howyou solve problems benefits an organization
from a, revenue standpoint, from an innovationstandpoint, from a creativity standpoint, from
that sense of belonging standpoint, becausewhen you see diversity at the top, those middle
(13:34):
managers, those individual contributors can seethat There is a trajectory for them to succeed
and grow within that organization and they workharder and they look for those those stretch
assignments Whereas when you see all of thesame, those culturally diverse people that are
in your your middle wrongs, you know, it's It'sfrustrating for them because they're they're
(13:58):
not sure how high they can move within thatorganization.
And I often say that sometimes my Caribbeanupbringing gave me a different mindset because
I thought anything was possible.
So I, you know, So, of course, I have, theythink Middle Eastern, but mostly Indian
background from India with a indenturedlaborers, which you know, so the trajectory of
(14:20):
what's happened with slavery and into denturelaborers, many other than supposedly promise of
land, really there was A lot the the conditionswere harsh at best for my ancestors.
But the thing is what happened in order tosurvive, and this is the history with the
Caribbean, and I any Caribbean peoplelistening, they're probably gonna say I'm
botching it up, but there was this element ofthat you had in order to survive, you had to
(14:45):
embrace different.
So there's that mindset that comes from theCaribbean in that, you know, you may be Hindu
or Muslim or black or Chinese or MiddleEastern, you know, after a while, you know, we
we turned out the term as kaoalou in a way,which is a a dish.
It's a dish.
But it's really a blending of everything.
(15:07):
And that cool concept that, well, my brothercould be black or he could be white, even
though there was the backdrop of colonialism.
Mhmm.
Right.
And so when I came to Canada when I was sixteento go to school, And then people would say,
well, I can't do that.
And I'm like, well, well, why why can't you dothat?
Why couldn't you, you know, go on and do X Y OZat university?
(15:31):
Because Oh, that doesn't happen.
So it was a mindset, that was a bit different,even though that we have the same backdrop, So
again, culture, like to your point,acculturation, potentially what my exposure was
say, versus growing up in North America aswell.
Absolutely Roxanne.
(15:52):
And, you know, the thing that is so pervasiveand insidious the narratives that not only are
told about us, but are are shared to us and andare part of us where, you know, we've gotta
really work to break through that in order tobelieve as in ourselves to achieve as much as
(16:15):
we can because there's so much that's told tous that we're we're not good enough.
We we can't succeed.
We can't do these things.
And especially here in the United States,systems are set up that create disadvantage for
us.
And so the combination of all of those things,it's frustrating, you know, and and it's you
(16:39):
know, it's a it's a pervasive negativity thatwe really have to work to one overcome for
ourselves.
But 2, overcome in society because there are somany of us that are doing amazing things, have
wonderful things to contribute.
(16:59):
And because we, you know, see ourselves inthese these boxes, Right?
It it makes it difficult to branch out and beable to understand other perspectives which is
something that you had the benefit of growingup in a a multicultural society.
You know, there were lots of perspectives, lotsof ideas, that were shared.
(17:24):
And there's just a different level of comfortin growing up that way versus having to now
understand that and embrace that.
It's it's a little challenging, and a littlescary.
Sometimes, to be honest, for, organizationalleaders that are doing it for the first time.
(17:46):
Absolutely.
And having those conversations, I said, if yougrow up and you're imbued in Dur diversity, you
think, well, why is this an issue?
My my friends, from Trinidad, and we still geton the line, and we're like, why they, you
know, it's so different.
Even though we know this systemicunderpinnings, absolutely.
Yes.
And that existed in Trinidad as well.
(18:07):
But I think because, you know, my my primeminister was black, my dentist was Chinese, my
position was Indian, And so it didn't matterwhere you went.
Right?
Like, I mean, you were consistently around it.
And then if you meet someone from my island,you'll know it's a trinity.
Like, we joke around because we have the sameway of thinking again, but it's all different
(18:29):
cultures, right, like, and ethnicity.
So it shows you And when I speak about,authenticity, I talk about just going from the
heart because ultimately, you know, that's thespace that we we all want that space within,
you know, whether, we're out with our childrenor we're running a company or we're on teens.
(18:50):
What is it?
I just want, to be uniquely who I am.
And if you can't have a conversation about whoI am and you were to see me, visibly, you know,
you're gonna treat me differently not knowingmy background.
So you take someone just like me that say wasborn in the US.
Our realities have been completely different inso many ways.
(19:12):
So I think that's what I talk about is youknow, getting comfortable enough to have the
conversation to say, hey, Jackie.
Where are you where are you from?
You know?
Yeah.
You know, or, you know, tell me a bit aboutyou.
How did you grow up?
Did you have a big family, a small family?
Did you, you know, what are the things thatmake you you?
And I think to your point, if you have peoplethat are comfortable to get there, that's one
(19:34):
thing.
But if you're just kind of stepping into it andit's a recipe, That's a whole other thing.
And there's a lot of tiptoeing around thingsthat eventually when people come from the
heart, it's it's easier to get to.
I I love that.
And authenticity is such an important word inthis work Roxanne because ultimately everything
(19:57):
that you're doing is establishing arelationship of trust.
And you have to be authentic in yourrelationships When when I ask you how you're
doing, I really mean it.
I wanna know how you're doing.
It's not something that I'm just checking offmy list.
Right?
And and you have to also be vulnerableyourself.
(20:17):
So if you're looking for information about meand and want me to share with you, then you
should share with me.
And so that's something that give and take isso important.
And it's important for, individuals who don'thave that experience with multicultural
societies to really, you know, becomecomfortable with.
(20:39):
So that they can have those open dialogues andlearn some new things and see the world through
other perspectives because we all see throughour own, you know, lens of experience.
Right?
And so to really be able to be a person who isempathetic And and that's part of the work in
(20:59):
DEI, whether it's in, you know, yourcommunities or in your, corporations.
You you've gotta open and broaden yourperspective a little bit, and you certainly can
do that well through conversations.
So again, authenticity is such an importantword, in this work.
(21:20):
And, you know, and music, right, like, youknow, I think about the things that cut through
our souls.
Right?
So, obviously, going back again to my history,there's Calypso.
Right?
Well, Calypso and carnival, which is, you know,came out of it came out as, basically slavery.
Right?
So I pay it, you know, I'm the typicalCaribbean kid.
I play steel pan.
(21:40):
Right?
So I grew up, you know, and they you guys callit, a band.
We call it a side.
So I grew up playing the steel drums.
I came to Canada.
I I toured Canada with my high school, went tothe parliament buildings when I was thirteen
years old.
And we did a cultural exchange was everythingfrom African dance to, combination of choirs I
(22:03):
played, you know, Haban Nagila along with, youknow, the Canadian anthem on the steel Yeah.
Right.
So, you know, so when you kinda start to lookat it from there, and I I often say my lens is
that what an opportunity because it's it's, youknow, when you meet somebody that is not like
(22:23):
you, there's such wealth within them, but butoftentimes that space of I don't know what to
ask or I don't know how to be if you can justbe yourself and open up your heart, which is
like what you said is core fundamental ofgetting to trust, which is I wanna feel good on
the inside just like you.
Yes.
(22:43):
But that takes that takes work and time andmetrics has to get out of the wind.
Taxi tactics have to find its spot and thebottom line and and boards and all that stuff
gets mixed up in there.
But, you know, I I think cutting through it toget to who are you, And how is it that I can
help you shine through so you can just let meunderstand who you are is what I see as being
(23:08):
very, very important.
And music is a good way to do that.
You know?
Absolutely.
And, you know, that's so great, Roxanne,because ultimately in order to do this work,
you've gotta find the baseline that people canall agree on.
Right?
And people love music.
That's a that's a a great way to find that youknow, let's where where is the point of
(23:30):
agreement?
And for DEI, that point of agreement usually isDo you believe that people are entitled to be
respected?
Feel safe and feel that their contributions arevalued at work, and you usually, you're gonna
get a yes there.
So from there, that's where the work starts, nomatter where people are on that spectrum of
(23:54):
having experience location level is on thatdiversity journey.
That is the fundamental baseline that peoplecan agree on.
And then the work begins from there.
So at the 3rd stage of, like you said, the year3, I would assume that that foundation has been
(24:18):
built.
So I guess I'm gonna assume policies are inalignment.
You're gonna have some basic communicationcapacity.
You're gonna start with your C suite, like yousaid.
And then obviously, then you're gonna go tomiddle management, you know, in front line.
You're gonna of course, that takes a lot oftime because you gotta kinda work off the kinks
between every level.
So Let's say you're a a senior leader or a CEOlistening to this and you're thinking, I think
(24:46):
we do some of it.
Mhmm.
We have touch points.
What would your advice be to someone like thatto say what I I'm listening to Jackie and
Roxanne.
I'm realizing how many things we have attemptedor some of it that we've done well, but boy,
we've dropped the ball And it's not becausewe're really not trying, but it's because we're
(25:06):
not aware of some of the things that we shouldbe keeping our eye eye on.
What what would you say to someone like that?
Absolutely.
So a couple of things that Roxanne down.
1, you're gonna be chasing progress overperfection.
You're not gonna get it all right.
You're not gonna hit the mark on every singleinitiative in your DEI journey that you want.
(25:28):
And that's okay.
The most important thing is to be authentic, asyou said, be vulnerable and share communication
throughout what you're doing, why you're doingit, what's been the progress, whether it's big
progress, small progress, no progress.
Us.
What, you know, what are some of the thingsthat you're gonna change?
(25:48):
What are some of the things that you're gonnatry?
That communication is key throughout yourentire DEI journey because you've gotta gain
buy in from C suite to your middle managers,which are very important part of the process,
because they ensure you know, that DEI strategyis rolled out day to day and acted upon by your
(26:10):
individual contributors.
And, you know, so then measuring is soimportant because, again, even small movement,
can have exponential value to your organizationfrom what that means from, a productivity
standpoint, from an innovation standpoint, youknow, from a a cohesiveness standpoint.
(26:35):
And so you're gonna wanna make sure that you'remeasuring everything from your diversity data
to your equity, equity policies.
For example, if you look at your HR policies,you know, many of those policies have been
pulled in from, you know, other organizationsor the organization you worked in before.
(26:58):
It's been the same, you know, time off policyfor 20 years.
Right?
But those policies need to be reviewed becauseYou know, our families look different.
Our, you know, our lifestyles are different.
The things that we're responsible for aredifferent.
And we wanna make sure that those policies arereflective of, you know, who we are as
(27:24):
individuals and as families that are part ofthe organization.
And then, you know, the inclusion piece is soimportant in making sure that you are creating
that, culture where people feel valued and theyfeel safe, which is you think that's su
(27:44):
fundamental But a lot of employees, especiallywho are part of the LGBTQ plus, community don't
feel safe in there are places of work.
And so those are some of the the basics thatyou wanna be communication measurements so
important.
And then once you get to that year 3, you'll beable to see real progress and then determine,
(28:08):
okay, where do we wanna dig in from here?
These are things that are going right.
These are things that we've not been supersuccessful at yet.
Let's, you know, do some remix of of what ourplans and strategies are.
And, you know, dig into this new, this newparadigm.
But again, DEI is a journey.
(28:28):
You're never gonna get to the finish line.
It's continual.
It's a process.
It has to do with people, and people areevolving, you know, and our societies thing.
And so you've gotta just maintain, yourcommitment to that to that journey.
You know what?
It just came to me, and I just think I'mlistening to you.
(28:49):
You know, what about, you know, the stories inreference to the business units?
Mhmm.
And sharing that as you as let's say you'reyou're making progress.
And from a marketing perspective, if you coulddo a pre and a post and a process, right, and
show it in reference to outcome.
I I think how how beautiful would that be ifyou kinda looked at it and you looked at how
(29:12):
you shifted the impact you had, how it touchedall the different parts of the business units
in the business, and then ultimately what itdid to your business out there in in in kind of
the world.
That would be a beautiful kind of thing inreference to marketing.
Yeah.
Roxanne, that's absolutely right.
And, again, that story should be told thatcommunication should occur internally.
(29:33):
It should occur externally because if you'rethinking about, you know, your existing
employees, They wanna know, you know, what arewe doing?
You know, we've got these extra things thatwe've gotta learn, and we've gotta implement,
and we've gotta do so what's the progress thatwe're making as a whole?
And then also the external communication isequally important from, you know, your your
(29:58):
brand reputation, from how you're recruiting,you know, the best and the brightest who are
prioritizing DEI and the companies that theywanna work for.
And so that communication piece is so importantand share those stories share your progress,
share your wins, share the things that haven'tgone well that, you know, you're gonna try a
(30:20):
different way.
That is all part of that authenticity, Roxanne,that
you know.
That transparency.
That transparency.
Right?
Like, you talked a little bit about narrativesand narratives are based on mindsets.
And I think, you know, the part that I thinkabout is, like, if you when, I shouldn't say
if, and I believe that most companies wanna dothis, when you start to make that shift and you
(30:44):
create that as evolutionary story about whatyou created based on what you've been exposed
to.
Like, I I always go back.
You can't go back to not knowing.
And then you you let people know as you goalong, and then you ask for feedback.
Obviously, in whatever way that works for yourorganization, the the breadth and depth that
you can get to.
(31:04):
And even for things that you think you're doingwell, And then you realize, boy, that's not
working so well because people are going alongand they're being complicit, but in fact, it's
it's it's maybe helping 45% of the people, butnot the other 65 to tweak those things become
very, very important.
And I think, you know, you know, the stories,the the how you seeing the brand, how people
(31:26):
are perceiving you, how, you know, across fromthe, you know, lunch table.
Now if people are back together at work, ableto talk about it versus thinking, oh, well, I
can't ask Roxanne that because I'm not sureshe's gonna say that.
And maybe I'm gonna you know, maybe I'm gonnaput her off because if you're coming from a
place of I'm just a normal human being thatreally, really, wants to know who you are,
(31:50):
Jackie, that that comes across from a adifferent deeper, deeper soul space as well.
Absolutely.
And Roxanne, you know, that made me think ofgrowth mindset, right, We, as leaders, have to
have a growth mindset in order to move ourorganizations into, you know, this next 10
(32:10):
years.
You know, we have to create sustainablebusiness and part of creating sustainable
business.
Is understanding the shifts and the trends thatare occurring in society and, you know, trends
in how, you know, we work trends and how, youknow, we absorb data and information trends in,
(32:33):
you know, what we do, in our downtime.
Those things change over time.
Right?
And one of the examples that I use so often isblockbuster.
Right?
And I'm a a genxer, And I remember spending myFriday night at Blockbuster getting my, you
know, 2 new releases in my skittles.
Right?
And now, you know, the the situation thatoccurred was that Netflix went to blockbuster,
(32:58):
and blockbuster said, no.
That's that's not gonna change.
Right?
And unfortunately, that's what happens withsome leaders now around DEI.
I don't know that I have to get into DEI.
Right?
And so and but, unfortunately, for them, youknow, that that is going to create issues with
(33:18):
longevity of their business because You know,again, with gen z coming into the workplace,
where they wanna work, the brands they wannapatronize, have to be really aligned with their
values differently than any other generationbefore.
And so to create sustainable business, you haveto have that growth mindset and DEI as part of
(33:41):
that.
And I think, you know, a lot of companies havebeen successful without the strategy in the
past for them to be aware that it's it'slooking at your point is if diversity and
inclusion, we're knowing that, like you said,the the demographic of the world is shifting.
And I know definitely the US probably the same.
(34:04):
So if that's the case, you can you can look atit and say, oh, well, we've been successful, or
you can say, okay.
What has it done I need to be aware of.
And if I'm not so good at collating theinformation, what pulses do I have to get make
sure we have out there so that things arecoming back to us that maybe we're not even
thinking about.
And I think sometimes the gen zeds are the bestfor that.
(34:26):
In that they they they're, like, thinking insuch a different way.
And talking to younger generations, it'ssometimes, I think, wow, how How do you think
like that?
Because they have such a different perspective.
Right?
So I think it's, like, you you're right.
Diversity of thought comes in packaged in somany different ways.
So it's not just a racialized.
(34:47):
That's obviously the one that's the biggest onethat's imminent, but it's it's all around us,
but ultimately it's understanding thatindividual and what what they're gonna bring
with them regardless of how what diversity,whether it's invisible or visible that they're
they're bringing, out there to to theworkplace.
Absolutely, Roxanne.
That's well said.
(35:07):
So I know you and I can probably keep chatting.
Now for people that are interested and arethinking, well, we're at different point like
Jackie's saying that they're wanting to, maybereach out to consult, kind of know where
they're at.
Where where's the best place, Jackie, for themto
get ahold of you?
Certainly.
So you can go to the diversity movement.com andjust reach out to us there.
(35:32):
It'll give you lots of great information, forfree.
You can you can go to our webinars.
We do webinars every month.
We provide lots of free content that will helpyou on your journey.
And then you can certainly reach out to us, andwe can talk to you about what might be right
for your organization.
And, again, every organization is different.
(35:54):
There is not a cookie cutter approach, so We'dlove an opportunity to just have a conversation
with you, see what your goals are, and and helpyou work towards them.
Well, thanks so much again.
So what what are the what am I walk walkingaway with?
I'm walking away with.
It's It's not perfection, it's progress.
Now look at where you're at, tell the stories,like we talked a little bit about And, you
(36:19):
know, as the leader or, part of the C suite,think what is it that I can bring forward that
might help others, even though I'm thinking Imay not be diverse.
It may be something that you've experiencedwhen you're out there in the world and you
think, wow, this is something I'd never thoughtabout.
Bring it back have that open conversation.
(36:40):
And I think we all have to be open to the factthat we're gonna learn till the day we die.
So just be recognizing that wherever you go, ifit if it's an experience in the world or, you
know, seeing someone interact differently,bring it back, have conversations about it.
And because ultimately, like we said, all wewanna do as human beings is to have that
(37:00):
experience of being accepted there.
We wanna be valued.
We want our lights to shine and allow thatspace within your companies and, reach out to
Jackie if that's something that you're wanting.
With myself, you know, I talk aboutauthenticity.
I talk about, my book, the ROR, which is thereturn on relationships is about to be
(37:21):
released.
So if you're wanting to know about,authenticity in your relationships, just go to
roxanderahodge.comforward/ quiz with 1 q 11zed.
Sorry.
And it'll pop you right into a littleassessment.
We'll send you some information Again, Jackie,thanks so much.
And take care, everyone.
We'll chat with you soon.
K.
Bye bye.
Bye.
(37:43):
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
rocksandirhaj.com/blueprint.
We'll see you next time.
On authentic living with Roxanne.
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