April 11, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode, Roxanne Derhodge welcomes Beth Sherman to discuss the power of humor in business and life. Beth shares her background and achievements, offering insights into crafting humor in the writer's room and the importance of truth and specificity. They examine the use of humor in high-stakes and leadership situations, emphasizing the need for audience awareness and perspective in communication. The conversation explores storytelling, leader awareness, and using humor to address challenges with self-awareness. sharing personal experiences, highlighting humor as a communication tool. The episode concludes with information on Beth Sherman's offerings and final thoughts.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, aplace where we have conscious conversations
about things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
(00:42):
Hi, everyone.
It's Roxanne Durhodge.
Thanks for tuning in again this week forAuthentic Living with Roxanne.
Today, I have someone that brings an amazingbackground, and I think we're going to have
lots of fun talking about humor, comedy, andbusiness.
Talia, Beth, thanks so much for being here withus today.
No, it's my pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
What I wanna talk a little bit about is herbackground.
(01:05):
So she's done, she's a speaker, a comedian,which we were talking about that just before we
got online about the comic elements, whetheryou're on a stage but also in business.
She's an Emmy award winning comedy writer.
She's worked with some of the biggest names inentertainment that we all would know.
She's American based in London and spends herfree time trying to remember to drive on the
(01:29):
left.
I grew up in Trinidad, so I'm the opposite ofyou, Beth.
So I came and got my license in Canada, andthen I moved back to Trinidad.
And I'm the same way.
I'm literally thinking I'm gonna hurt myself orlots of other people, so I decide not to drive
when I go to Trinidad.
So a bit about her, she's worked with Emmyaward winning Hollywood comedies such as The
(01:53):
Late Show with David Letterman, which we alllove, Jay Leno, Ellen, the Academy Awards.
She's done comedy clubs throughout The US, andshe's the winner of seven Emmy Awards, like I
said earlier, and nominated for a 2023 WritersGuild Award for the Netflix comedy special
stand out, LGBTQ and celebration.
(02:17):
So Beth You've read the whole thing.
I have.
I had to keep
And that's our time.
Yeah, it was just the first little bit is when
people really started telling her I wasn'tgoing to get into all of it, I got into it.
See, you have an interesting background, Beth,you have to tell everybody else that they're
just gonna listen intently to what you have tosay.
(02:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I yes.
Basically, I've I spent thirty years in comedy,and now I am I help people in business not be
funny.
I'm not trying to make more comedians.
That is no one needs that.
And I don't need the competition.
I what I'm focused on now is humor as a tool,but, really, the end result is that I'm looking
(03:02):
for is connection and impact because you haveto get people's attention and you have to
create emotional connection.
Whether you're speaking to an audience orwhether you're leading a team.
And so it's not about it's necessarily jokey.
It's about how can you quickly build trust andrapport.
(03:24):
And humor and by humor, I'm defining as how canyou just get to get a laugh or a smile, just a
smile out of someone.
How can you give them that warm fuzzy?
How can you just be someone that they don'tmind spending time with?
Because in business, that can be the differencebetween someone working with you or the other
guy.
(03:44):
Mean, it it it's such a small thing, but it'sso it's really just you you the title of your
podcast involves authenticity.
I mean, it's how can you be a person?
How can you be authentic?
How can you be human in in a world where AI andand chatbots are, you know, perfectly capable
(04:06):
of doing a job that's okay.
So how can you really stand out, and how canyou create situations that are just lessened.
So did you when you started off, right, like,I'm always curious, did you go to writing
school?
(04:26):
Did you take journalism?
What was the path that made you think?
I'm gonna eventually be able to be up therewith some of the, I think, best comics, and so
different, right?
Like you think of Jay Leno from David Lethey're all so and it has to be steeped in who
they really are to deliver, which I love.
Like you talk about authenticity, It's thatdelivery.
(04:48):
And sometimes you think, Oh, goodness, I thinkthey left me back there because I didn't get
the humor.
So how is it that you got into writing and thenultimately got into the element of humor in
writing?
Sure.
Well, it's not I I got into humor.
I wasn't connected to to writing.
Okay.
That's what I fell in love with.
(05:10):
It it these jobs, they're not things that youcan learn in school.
It's really a lot of apprentice.
You can teach someone how to be a musician.
You can teach them the fundamentals, but thenfinding their voice to be a composer or finding
their voice musically, if you compare it tothat, it's really experience.
There's no substitute for experience.
(05:31):
I thought I wanted to be a journalist untilbecause that was sort of the I have a short
attention span, but it's short and it goesdeep.
So, journalism seemed like something that wouldwork when I was in and this is in high school.
I mean, trying to imagine what I wanted to do.
And I used to watch these news magazine shows,and I thought that seems interesting.
(05:51):
People get to go all over the world and getreally into a story.
And then the following week, it's a differentstory.
That appealed to me.
And then I was watching one of those newsmagazine shoot shows, and they did a behind the
scenes of a sitcom that I really liked that wasabout broadcast journalism.
It was Murphy Brown.
I don't know if
people
have kids of age.
(06:11):
And I was in high school at the time.
And they did a behind the scenes, and it wasn'tjust the actors behind the scenes.
They went to this magical place called theWriter's Room.
And I was living in Philadelphia in thesuburbs.
I had no connection with show business at all.
And the Writer's Room was a room full of guys.
It was mostly guys.
(06:31):
It was, like, 10 guys around a conference roomtable.
And their entire job so it'd be one person'sjob to write the script for that week's show,
and then it would be everyone else's job to gothrough that script line by line to make every
line funnier, not just funnier, but funnier inthe voice of the character.
Mhmm.
(06:52):
And so it's a room full of people who wereprofessionally funny who got to hang out with
other people who were professionally funny.
It just this and they got paid for it.
I mean, to me, that was just the most it's theonly thing I ever wanted to do.
Once I knew it was a job, it was just genuinelythe only thing I ever wanted to do.
And I I went to college because it both myparents were the first in their generation to
(07:16):
in their families to go to college.
So me not going was not an option.
So I went and I studied communication, but itwas very academic.
It wasn't anything that I've ever used.
And then I moved to Los Angeles, and I startedas a a PA, as a gopher.
They call you a gopher because it's literallygopher this, gopher that.
(07:37):
Go buy 40 coffees at Starbucks or go drivescripts around because it was pre Internet, pre
really pre fax, so they would send out thepages.
There were new pages every day because thethere would be often a table read of the script
on a Monday, and then they would shoot thescript in front of a live studio audience on
Friday.
And so from Tuesday to Friday, the writers inthat writer's room were it was evolving.
(08:05):
So, rehearsals during the day and then in thewriters' room, it was evolving.
So, then, when I moved up to writer's assistantor PA, people were it was my job to drive those
new pages around so people the actors couldshow up prepared the next morning.
And I basically sort of worked my tail off andthrough attrition.
(08:27):
At some point, I wore people down and gotopportunities and got writing jobs, and then
those jobs continued.
But that was the path I took into it.
I saw it.
I fell in love with it, and nothing else cameclose.
So I essentially apprenticed myself to it.
To the career that you have and then ultimatelyinto business.
(08:50):
Now, what was the one thing that you learnedearly about writing?
Because I always think that humor, there'suniversality with some things, right?
But when I think of humor, like I think of someof the skits that you see on Saturday Night
Live or whatever, when you think of a tableread, they go through and through and through.
Like you said, if they do a Monday to a Fridayor whoever who you're writing for, how is it
(09:12):
that they decide what's funny?
Do they gauge it based on whether because funnypeople are funny.
Right?
Or how do they know if the average person isgonna connect with the kind of what's weaved in
the humor wise into a skit?
The stuff that I the career that I ended uphaving was a lot of comedy variety.
So I ended up on shows that were five days aweek.
(09:33):
So there wasn't a lot of time for a table read.
There was sort of what happened in the newstoday at 04:00.
This was gonna be on the air, and there's arehearsal somewhere in between.
But, really, it's this will sound like a smartaleck answer, but it's do people laugh?
Do the people in the room laugh?
And when you have a room full of funny people,it's tough to get a laugh because it's I guess
(09:56):
it's like having a room full of chefs.
If they'll taste something, they'll go, oh,yeah.
That's good.
But imagine what it takes for them to go, oh mygod.
That's the best thing I've ever tasted.
Right.
Right.
Right.
So the reactions but I think people know.
I I think you have a sense of if it makes theroom laugh, that's usually how in rehearsal, if
(10:19):
the camera guys laugh, if the camera operatorslaugh, the people who've just seen everything,
you know, the guys who've been there for twentyfive years.
Right.
Right.
Who who are sort of half listening.
If you can make them laugh, then the generalpopulation is gonna love it.
And but all that said, sometimes things don'tland.
But for the same reason some of those thingsdon't land, if you sort of took it back to the
(10:44):
shop and looked at it, it's often the samesorts of reasons that things don't land if
you're a speaker.
And you think, gee, thought really thought thatwas funny, but it didn't get much.
Sometimes it's maybe the wording was a littlesoft.
Maybe it it because everybody knew thepunchline you were getting to, it felt right in
(11:04):
the planning of it.
But then the audience, there might have been apiece of information they didn't have or a word
that needed to be at the very end of it was alittle buried.
So or it sometimes it's just in the delivery ifpeople can't hear the punchline either
literally or hear the punchline sort offiguratively.
(11:25):
If it can go right past them, if if there's notsome sort of audible cue that it's a punchline.
If you hear me speaking now, my voice goes up.
Or if I'm gonna emphasize something, I mighttake a small beat.
Because there are things that I'm doing thatthere's subtle cues that I'm well, that I'm
(11:48):
enjoying what I'm saying, but there's subtlecues that I want you to enjoy what it is that
I'm saying.
And so there's usually a way to problem solvethings if they don't work.
But
So there's a stage crafting that will actuallycome of it even if you've written the speech or
(12:08):
the story to for the person delivering it aswell.
Like, to your point, so you could take twodifferent people delivering the same message,
but it's the way like you said, whether it'selevating your voice or stopping or leaning
into the audience or some whatever your the wayyou hold your body, those types of things.
Obviously, there's a crafting bit that goeswith it as well.
(12:29):
Yeah.
There's a physicality to it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's also but when I work with speakers andI work with everyone from because a big because
I speak to businesses about how to use humor inleadership and how to use it for connection and
in sales and things like that.
But I also work one to one with a lot ofspeakers.
(12:50):
And about half my clientele are these fivefigure big, you know, queso grande big cheese
speakers.
But the rest of them are father of the bridewho's terrified and has never really spoken in
public before.
Owns a tire warehouse and but his daughter'sgetting married and wants to give a great
(13:12):
speech.
So you don't necessarily need to be a seasonedspeaker.
That's where it comes into my for me,understanding what's funny on the page.
And what I talk about in in both cases is thattruth is funny.
If you wanna mix no matter what you're tryingto do, don't try to be funny.
(13:33):
Truth is funny.
So all all we do as comedians is observe andreport truth.
So instead of trying to because an audience cansmell it when you're trying too hard.
Everyone's been to stand up or an open micnight or something or had a boss or a father
(13:54):
who who made jokes and uh-huh.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Oh.
You'll get yeah.
You'll get a reaction, but you got a nice one.
Yeah.
I see what you did there.
But if you can sort of have a what really landswith people and creates an emotional connection
is simply being a little bit vulnerable andstating funny truth.
(14:18):
And if you're looking for funny truth or whenprofessionals look for funny truth, there's two
main places that we look for it, and one isself awareness and one is specificity.
And so this goes from every Netflix special tothe father of the bride to just a leader trying
to relieve a little tension.
(14:39):
Self awareness.
I don't mean being self deprecating.
I mean self awareness, which is simplyacknowledging whatever the audience or the
other person might be noticing or thinking.
If I've got my arm in a cast and I walk out onstage, I better say something about the fact
that my arm's in a cast because people arenoticing it.
When I did stand up, I mean, I've got shorthair.
(15:02):
I people would jump to a conclusion.
I'm a woman with short hair.
So I had to, at some point, in the first minuteor two, acknowledge it somehow because
otherwise those things become a potentialdistraction.
So that's just self awareness.
Be aware of how you're coming across to people,which is also one of the number one things they
teach in leadership training.
(15:23):
Be aware of the impact that you have and beaware of how you interact with people.
How do other people see you?
And then specificity is simply, if truth isfunny, then the details of that truth are
hilarious because we're all quirky.
We're it's I mean, if I ask you, it it's thesort of what did you have for breakfast?
And you go, well, I had I had some cereal.
(15:45):
No.
No.
What did you have?
Well, okay.
It was actually was granola, I poured it intothe bowl, and then we didn't have any milk.
But we had a little heavy cream and someyogurt.
So I put one spoonful of each of those thingsin there, figuring somehow that'll balance it
out.
And I didn't have any fresh fruit, so I thoughtI have strawberry jam.
Why not?
And then I took a bite of it and realized mygranola was stale.
(16:06):
This is all this is actually what happened thismorning.
I realized my granola was kinda stale.
So I put I put more jelly in.
I put more strawberry jam in because reallywasn't anything else in the house that I I felt
like eating.
And then just mixed it up into just a pastethat you could use to hang wallpaper.
But I'm imagining the consistency in my mouth.
(16:29):
Oh, yeah.
It was a workout.
It it was it really got the morning started,and then I had a double espresso with that.
So but that specificity.
So is that a hilarious story?
No.
But does it tell you something about me?
Does it make you feel a little bit moreconnected to me?
I I think think if she's laid back, she makesdo with what she has, and if it doesn't work
(16:52):
out, she iterates.
Yeah and have you done the same thing?
Oh goodness, oh goodness, relatable.
It's the time in different scenariosabsolutely.
You're thinking well I don't have this but I'mgoing to try this.
Yeah, it's great.
Will never do that again or wow, that's prettyinnovative.
Exactly.
It's and that's just that's all specificity is.
(17:14):
It's just it's often it's the story behind whathappened and and it's storytelling without
having always to tell the story.
I love that.
I love that approach.
Right?
Because I think when I was creating my keynote,you're writing and you're trying all these
things.
Right?
And then you're like, it's like, I'll do acouple more PhDs instead of doing this damn
(17:34):
speech.
And then you realize it's because you're tryingso hard to get the thing right.
But I love what you just did there, Beth, whichwas just kinda, I'm gonna just tell you a
story.
And you're telling a story, like you said, I'mgonna screw up that word.
Exactly.
We all become Sylvester the cat when we try tosay it.
(17:56):
Yes.
It's so simple and I'm just thinking ofapplying it for leaders, right?
And when they're trying to deliver somethingthat maybe isn't fun or whatever, and they're
maybe talking about their morning before theyleft the house kind of thing to kind of create
that element that I'm just kind of just likeyou by that story.
(18:20):
And that was like we talk about, like you said,humour and connection.
Because a lot of times leaders, because of whothey are perceived as having to be the people
in charge, they have everything figured out,all that stuff, and they're just like me and
you, right?
And they're trying to get through a day.
But people that are very kind of, I would say,autocratic in their approach, they feel like
(18:43):
they can't show who they really are, which issuch a sad thing for them to be able to learn
that skill, to be able to You could still dobusiness very well, but relatability, it
becomes so easy, like from what you're saying,just by being able to tell a story.
But it doesn't have to be a grandiose storyabout something huge or big.
(19:04):
Something as simple as having old granola withsome
And there's a great quote from James Joyce,author of Ulysses, noted funny man.
He is a great he wasn't talking about comedy atthe time, I don't think.
But the quote is, in the particular lies theuniversal.
The more specific something is, the morerelatable it is.
(19:28):
Yeah.
It's just really often just a little bit ofvulnerability.
And then when I speak to groups on leadershipor I when I speak about humor and leadership,
and I always have to be careful to say, I'musing the word humor, but I just really mean
how can you create trust and rapport?
I I use the example of there there's a friendof mine here who is a former British I always
(19:49):
wanna say special forces, he he always correctsme.
Commando.
British forces commando.
And he traveled all over the world very high upand deployed in war zones all over the world.
And we've had some great conversations about hehow he used humor as a tool and how important
he thought it was.
(20:10):
He actually called it a force multiplier, whichI thought was really cool.
This guy is six foot four.
I mean, he's exactly what you picture when youthink commando, big army commando man.
And one of the examples that he used is when hewould have to meet with village elders to get
them to do whatever it was he needed them to door get their help at least with to to work with
(20:36):
them.
So so he had to build trust and rapport in thisvery tense situation very quickly.
And, again, this guy's six foot four, wouldhave been in fatigues and armed to the teeth.
And he's using the word we're using the wordhumor, but he's not gonna be a clown.
He's not gonna go in and be try to be acomedian.
(20:56):
But he said he would do small things, like be alittle bit awkward with the local custom.
Or if they give them the drink of the localbooze, sort of give it a little extra something
as it goes down.
Just a tiny little bit of vulnerability.
Whatever you had to do to get a little bit of asmile.
You're talking about using humor to say thingsbetween the lines.
(21:21):
And I asked him, so what were you sayingbetween the lines when you were doing those
things?
And he didn't hesitate for a second.
He said, I was trying to say that inside thisuniform, there is a person.
Even though I'm a big guy with a lot of seriousthings that I have to achieve, I could be a
little bit bumbly too or I could be
(21:41):
He was willing to be that tiny little bitvulnerable.
He wasn't giving away anything.
He was still mister big army commando man, butnot but he was willing to be just a tiny bit
vulnerable.
And people see that, and it just releasessometimes, it's just releasing that little bit
of tension or just showing that you're tryingto be a person.
(22:02):
And I don't think that undermines credibility.
If you think
that
undermined his credibility, I'll give you hisaddress.
I'm not gonna tell him.
You can.
You know?
Six foot four army commando man.
Oh, yeah.
No.
Of course not.
So it's a subtlety of what I like about whatwe're talking about, Beth, it's it doesn't have
to be so contrived.
(22:23):
It could be something really subtle or simplein allowing people to just see who Beth is or
who the commando guy is.
But ultimately, I think a fear, and I knowsometimes leaders worry about that credibility
element, right?
You know, if I'm too quote unquote emotionallyavailable, I'm not gonna be credible and then
(22:47):
people are gonna take my direction, and thenthings are gonna fall apart kind of thing.
If you think about most a lot of leaders thatwill say went to the business schools and stuff
like that, they learn how to lead and fromcertain models, those types of things.
And we know that what's needed more so is justshoulder to shoulder, right?
Like to be able
to Absolutely.
A lot of experts are afraid to kind of takethat step sometimes.
(23:09):
They want to be relatable, but they're not surehow to do it.
It's all relative.
I mean, to me, it's the same as adding humor toa keynote.
It's humor is seasoning.
It's not the main ingredient.
Right?
So you just want a little if you think of itlike salt.
So some situations on stage or in a leadershipposition or not leadership, but I mean, there
(23:34):
are moments when it's appropriate to be alittle saltier, to have a more generous hand
with the seasoning.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But even just a little bit.
Think about a few flakes of sea salt onchocolate.
It's transformative.
Right?
So if you're a leader, maybe it's just havingthe self awareness.
(23:55):
If you know that maybe it's a little bit ofunderstatement.
Maybe it's just when something doesn't go wellgo that didn't work.
Maybe it's just a tiny thing or maybe it's justa tiny a tiny bit of self awareness.
If you have if you know how you come across topeople, if you know that people are thinking,
(24:15):
if he starts talking, it's gonna be fortyminutes at least.
If you go, this I'm only gonna keep you for aminute.
Okay?
It'll probably be fifteen.
If you just have that just that tiny little bitof self awareness, if you're reflecting back to
your audience or your team or whoever it is,what's in that thought bubble above their head?
(24:37):
And that's what creates emotional connection.
That's what makes people feel seen and heardbecause it's all a dialogue interpersonally.
Right?
Even if you're on the only one on stage holdinga microphone, it's a dialogue between you and
the audience.
If you're a leader and you're speaking to oneperson or your entire team, even if you're the
(24:58):
only one speaking, it's still a dialogue.
They are they all have their own opinion.
They all have anything you can do to connectwith them emotionally and also remove any
potential distractions.
We've all been in meetings watching someonespeak and you you can just feel everyone's
catching each other's eye, everything's go it'sineffective.
(25:19):
So if you're a leader, can you acknowledge whatthat elephant in the room is so that everyone
else isn't obsessed with it?
So you're not you're not losing your crowd andsay, you're naming it in the room and then to
kind of get them back to where you want them tobe.
Because it's more awkward to pretend everything
Is okay.
(25:39):
Is is okay.
Yeah.
And it doesn't and you don't again, you don'thave to be touchy feely kumbaya.
It's just it's can you reflect back some partof what's in the thought bubble above the heads
of the people or person that you're speakingto?
Because they're all having thoughts about youand what you're saying and, oh my goodness,
(26:02):
here's
Or the situation.
Or the situation.
The situation.
To maybe communicate about the new IT programthat everybody hates and you're gonna come and
we're gonna talk about the what an impressivesystem and how this is gonna make every and
everybody's going, what?
I don't know.
Yeah.
You thinking?
If you could speak to point, then peopleBecause you're kind of thinking what people be
(26:23):
thinking?
And you're actually, like you said, withspecificity, I'll get that word.
Then you can bring it back into the room andthe related ability.
Because I talk a lot about, in my second book,about return on relationship versus return on
investment.
Because I will say to leaders, if you're ableto be aware, right, and you're taking it down
(26:45):
even further with the element of humour, ifyou're aware that you come across kind of down
the middle, you get more microscopic whenyou're stressed, and you can say, I'm going to
be really laissez faire today, they're going tolaugh because they know that's not you kind of
thing.
So I think I like that element because youcould poke a bit of fun at not being
(27:07):
denigrating, like you said, but a little bit offun at yourself so that they could say, Wow,
Roxanne gets that.
It's all relative.
Yeah, exactly.
The more buttoned up you are, the less ittakes.
Then there really is those sea salt flakes ofsea salt on chocolate.
Working with speakers who say, I'm not funny.
Great.
Or I'm not
That would be me.
I would say that.
(27:28):
I'd be like, I'm not funny.
And then you realize you are funny.
I grew up in Trinidad, Beth, where there'ssomething called, the term in Trinidad is
called fatigue, which is basically making fun,right?
And basically people sit around and they tellstories.
We call it cracking jokes, right?
Which is literally, you're kind of just tellinga story and that some people are just better at
(27:50):
it.
But even as children, you see that, you know,we all kind of start to learn to, which is,
it's such a, it's a nice place to hang out too,right, obviously.
Because you just have conversations aboutnothing sometimes.
But you're learning that whole element of, likeyou said, to your point, connection.
With leaders that are listening and they'rethinking, my goodness, I'm just so, like you
(28:12):
said, buttoned up and I realize that I need towork.
I'm a good leader, but I'm kind of not maybe myteam wouldn't say I'm as much fun as I could be
or as approachable.
What are some quick things that we alreadytalked a little bit about that, like little
things they can do?
Is there anything, a couple steps that youwould suggest they consider?
(28:35):
I'm gonna sound like I'm being a smart aleck.
I don't mean it that way.
Show that there is a person somewhere inside ifsomething amusing happens.
Just smile because everyone's probably gonnalook at you to see if you are or not.
And if you, you know, and if you smile in spiteof yourself and you don't like I mean, you can
also just say, you didn't see that.
I mean, even that, simply because in that,you're really saying, I know that how you see
(29:00):
me.
I know that you think that I never ever smile.
Simply acknowledging that is is something thatyou can do.
I would invite you to share something aboutyourself or ask people how you come across.
I realize there are dynamics in business whereyou can't always be as open, but there's
probably there are probably opportunities whenyou can say, alright.
(29:24):
Well, if you were doing an impression of me,what would it be?
And you'll get it immediately.
Yeah.
And then it so just but just really, honestly,the easiest one is simply to smile and simply
to acknowledge the elephant in the room whenit's there.
It doesn't undermine your credibility toacknowledge the fact that you are human.
(29:48):
Yeah.
And I've been in those meetings over mycorporate career, and the house is on fire, and
the leader at the front of the room is actinglike nothing's going on.
Not one of us obviously was listening.
When there's a merger or an acquisition comingdown or something bad happened at the quarterly
board meeting or something like that.
And technically that leader could have doneanything and we're to have gotten our
(30:11):
attention.
But some people are so unaware to your point.
You talked a lot about awareness.
And they're just they have five things theyhave to get across and they don't care what's
going on and they keep at it.
And that works across purposes to what theyshould be doing, which is
because there's such a big distraction thatpeople aren't listening.
Yeah.
I was at a professional organization that I'm amember of, was having some financial
(30:37):
difficulties.
And there were people were stepping down, andthere were all sorts of things happening.
And then all of this sort of played out in inthe couple of weeks before the yearly
conference.
The big conference where everyone comes andYeah.
It's also a lot of fun.
And so the interim president kicked off theconference.
We all showed up.
But I know I had that thought bubble above myhead of, yeah, is this gonna overshadow the
(31:02):
whole conference?
Is this gonna be this whole thing just gonna bea drag now?
And so the interim president, who was theinterim president because of all the
reshuffling, opened opened with before even thefirst keynote, he opened with before I say
anything else, I have to acknowledge theelephant in the room.
(31:22):
There is no elephant.
We can't afford one.
And it it was such a small thing, but it Yeah.
Yeah.
Everything that was between the lines in thatwas I know there's a whole bunch going on, but
let's relieve a little bit of that tension.
Just it was it got a massive I mean, it itbrought the house down because it it it
(31:46):
acknowledged exactly what everybody wasthinking.
And it and it let everybody kind of take abreath and think, okay.
This isn't gonna overshadow the next threedays.
I mean, it's obviously it's an issue.
It's a big issue.
But we're gonna be able to laugh.
Yeah.
See your Emmys in the I see your Emmys in theback there.
(32:09):
I just looked over.
There's two of them.
I'm not allowed to keep them all out.
It would just be
It would be too fluttered.
Obnoxious.
I
didn't even have these out.
I just looked over and I went, oh, I know whatthose are.
I got tired of being asked, how come you don'thave any of them out?
Then, oh, if you want to get speaking gigs whenyou have those discovery calls, you should have
(32:31):
them out.
Talking about self awareness as a tool.
Like, I didn't want to not have self awareness.
I mean, self awareness is I
I just have it to look over.
I thought, oh, I think I know what that is.
I'm still torn between the self awareness ofpeople being impressed by them and it sort of
helping add to my credibility and the selfawareness of I'm not sure what I would think if
someone else had them out.
(32:53):
So
Oh, think I just I'm totally because again,you're talking about the writing and as a
writer as well, I write, but that element ofconnection, like when you write anything,
people want to experience you in the writing,right?
That's the thing about now being an author.
And when you say my dad wrote my read my firstbook, and my sisters are like, oh my goodness,
(33:16):
you so would say that sentence that way.
So you could tell, right?
So that whole element.
And then your element of talking about takingsomething and kind of peppering it with little
elements to connect with others is anotherlevel, right?
Whether it's a, like you said, at end of yourmeeting, if you're a CEO or you're Monday
morning meeting once a week kind of thing, youhave a responsibility to really refine what
(33:42):
you're doing so that you can deliver the bestpossible message.
Right?
You don't always have to be on a stage oranything like that because it it could be as
impressive as that one to one person that yousee every Wednesday at that check-in meeting to
be able to connect to them because that's awhole element is just understanding what it
takes to connect with somebody else.
(34:03):
Yeah.
I mean, if something crazy happens or if you'rea speaker or a leader, adding humor or that
relatability can be as simple as using, one,being just being honest.
Mhmm.
But using an example, if you're trying to ifyou're talking about customer service or
(34:24):
customer experience, what was your first job?
How did it go wrong?
What did customers not enjoy about you?
What did customer who were you difficultcustomers?
What were their exact be specific then.
What were their exact criticisms?
If you're looking for things firsts and worstsare usually stories.
(34:45):
Worst
job, worst version of this, worst if you'retalking about your own experience, your own
learning curve, what were the speed bumps thatyou hit along your learning curve?
It's okay to be a little bit vulnerable.
Also, analogies.
Find organic or organic opportunities to addhumor in your talk or in your content or even
(35:08):
just in your networking, but using analogies.
Sometimes have some fun with them.
Go to you know, it doesn't have to be full onsetup punchline.
It can it it should well, it should always bein the service of the greater point that you're
making.
(35:28):
Humor is a seasoning.
It's not the main ingredient.
You are the main ingredient.
Your message is the main ingredient.
And humor and, again, I'm sort of now usingthat word in quotes.
But there should always be an intent behind it.
(35:49):
It shouldn't be gratuitous.
Because if it's gratuitous, that becomes adistraction.
But if you're using it to make a point ofsometimes you have to deal with difficult
customers, give us a good example.
Or if your point is you've been through asimilar journey and you got out the other side,
what were some real things that happened duringthat or that are relatable?
(36:13):
They might be a tiny bit embarrassing, butyou're using it in the service of explaining to
other people this stuff isn't easy.
Failure is part of the process.
Yeah.
Of course.
So, Beth, this has been an amazingconversation.
I love how you just deconstructed it in a waythat's easy to understand, whether you're a
(36:35):
speaker that's gonna be on a platform or you'regonna have the dreadly management meeting once
a week kind of thing, and you're trying tothink about how you could just have people just
see you for who you are.
And then like you said, I love the analogy ofthe salt on the chalk.
I can remember that now, right?
So that everything doesn't I don't feel like Ihave to be cracking a joke every time or
(37:00):
whatever.
And I think too, if you are doing it moreprofessionally, that refinement, that Like your
example of the Monday lead to the Friday, kindof how much work it takes for you to be with a
room full of If it's 10 guys writing andrewriting and laughing and writing, how much
work it takes to really perfect things.
(37:22):
And then, like you said, you go out there andmost of it works, but sometimes it doesn't.
But you have to really work hard to make thingsbetter.
Yeah.
And don't give up on it.
I write, I speak all the time.
I go out and
I think, I thought that was going to getsomething else.
But don't give up on it.
Think of it again, this is what happens when Ido podcasts around dinnertime.
(37:42):
But if you think of it like a recipe Yeah.
It's another food analogy coming.
But if you think of it like a recipe, firsttime you make a recipe, if it doesn't come out
perfectly, it might come out fine.
And you're like, oh, this is fine.
Yeah.
You don't sort
of say, I'm never making spaghetti bologneseagain.
You think, oh, it's fine.
But I think next time, probably more garlic,probably more salt, probably Yeah.
(38:06):
Maybe a little cream, a little bit of this, alittle bit of that.
I'm gonna leave that out.
I'm gonna add that.
That's all.
It's iterative.
It doesn't mean that it doesn't work and itnever will work or be a crowd pleaser.
Absolutely.
So, Beth, I'm sure people that are listeningwill want to know kind of what you offer and
kind of what, like you said, you work withbusinesses around the element of connection, of
(38:30):
which humor is one of the ways you do that.
Why don't you tell everybody what you offer andif every anybody is wanting to reach out and
connect where they can get ahold of you.
I my very clever website is bethsherman.com.
That's you don't get daytime Emmys for nothing.
So that's my website.
(38:51):
And, yeah, I I speak and I do master classes onhow to use how to connect with people, how to
speak with impact, how to use humor inleadership.
But really, again, it's taking leadership backinto just simply being a people skill and how
do you create emotional connection, how do youbuild trust and rapport with people in
(39:13):
leadership?
And I speak a lot of sales conferences.
And I also work one to one with speakers whowant help adding seasoning to the to their
keynotes so that they are not just morememorable, but more engaging and, as speakers,
more bookable.
Because people really leave having enjoyed itand having taken away they leave with a message
(39:39):
that you wanna put in them.
Because laughter and smiles create theiremotion, and emotion is a it's necessary to
build trust.
It it can be you can create tears.
It's just less fun.
But emotion is a building block of trust, andyou need trust before you're gonna get people
to take action.
(40:00):
And that action could be buying from you orworking with your company, but it could just be
as small as giving you the benefit of the doubtand continuing to listen to you for another few
minutes.
Well, awesome.
For everybody thinking of putting a little bitof sea salt on their chocolate in whatever
element, please reach out to Beth.
And for me, if you're looking to find out aboutyour authentic connections and relationships,
(40:24):
you can go to RoxanderHodgefor.com/quiz.
We will do a mini quiz, and we'll send you backthe results with some next steps.
Again, Beth, this has been amazing.
I am going to now go review my keynote andthink about where I need to work on things.
For the leaders that are thinking it doesn'thave to be a huge thing, to Beth's point.
(40:44):
It could be something really simple, likementioning what's going on in everybody's mind
that you know you're not addressing.
It could be that simple to be able to createthat connection.
So everyone, thanks for hanging out with usagain.
Give us a review on iTunes if you liked today'spodcast, and reach out to Beth, and we'll chat
again with you next week.
(41:04):
Again, Beth, thanks so much.
Take care, everyone.
Thank you.
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive,
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach.
To work with Roxanne, visitRoxanneDurhaj.com/blueprint.
(41:26):
We'll see you next time on Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, aplace where we have conscious conversations
about things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
(00:42):
Hi, everyone.
It's Roxanne Durhodge.
Thanks for tuning in again this week forAuthentic Living with Roxanne.
Today, I have someone that brings an amazingbackground, and I think we're going to have
lots of fun talking about humor, comedy, andbusiness.
Talia, Beth, thanks so much for being here withus today.
No, it's my pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
What I wanna talk a little bit about is herbackground.
(01:05):
So she's done, she's a speaker, a comedian,which we were talking about that just before we
got online about the comic elements, whetheryou're on a stage but also in business.
She's an Emmy award winning comedy writer.
She's worked with some of the biggest names inentertainment that we all would know.
She's American based in London and spends herfree time trying to remember to drive on the
(01:29):
left.
I grew up in Trinidad, so I'm the opposite ofyou, Beth.
So I came and got my license in Canada, andthen I moved back to Trinidad.
And I'm the same way.
I'm literally thinking I'm gonna hurt myself orlots of other people, so I decide not to drive
when I go to Trinidad.
So a bit about her, she's worked with Emmyaward winning Hollywood comedies such as The
(01:53):
Late Show with David Letterman, which we alllove, Jay Leno, Ellen, the Academy Awards.
She's done comedy clubs throughout The US, andshe's the winner of seven Emmy Awards, like I
said earlier, and nominated for a 2023 WritersGuild Award for the Netflix comedy special
stand out, LGBTQ and celebration.
(02:17):
So Beth You've read the whole thing.
I have.
I had to keep
And that's our time.
Yeah, it was just the first little bit is when
people really started telling her I wasn'tgoing to get into all of it, I got into it.
See, you have an interesting background, Beth,you have to tell everybody else that they're
just gonna listen intently to what you have tosay.
(02:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I yes.
Basically, I've I spent thirty years in comedy,and now I am I help people in business not be
funny.
I'm not trying to make more comedians.
That is no one needs that.
And I don't need the competition.
I what I'm focused on now is humor as a tool,but, really, the end result is that I'm looking
(03:02):
for is connection and impact because you haveto get people's attention and you have to
create emotional connection.
Whether you're speaking to an audience orwhether you're leading a team.
And so it's not about it's necessarily jokey.
It's about how can you quickly build trust andrapport.
(03:24):
And humor and by humor, I'm defining as how canyou just get to get a laugh or a smile, just a
smile out of someone.
How can you give them that warm fuzzy?
How can you just be someone that they don'tmind spending time with?
Because in business, that can be the differencebetween someone working with you or the other
guy.
(03:44):
Mean, it it it's such a small thing, but it'sso it's really just you you the title of your
podcast involves authenticity.
I mean, it's how can you be a person?
How can you be authentic?
How can you be human in in a world where AI andand chatbots are, you know, perfectly capable
(04:06):
of doing a job that's okay.
So how can you really stand out, and how canyou create situations that are just lessened.
So did you when you started off, right, like,I'm always curious, did you go to writing
school?
(04:26):
Did you take journalism?
What was the path that made you think?
I'm gonna eventually be able to be up therewith some of the, I think, best comics, and so
different, right?
Like you think of Jay Leno from David Lethey're all so and it has to be steeped in who
they really are to deliver, which I love.
Like you talk about authenticity, It's thatdelivery.
(04:48):
And sometimes you think, Oh, goodness, I thinkthey left me back there because I didn't get
the humor.
So how is it that you got into writing and thenultimately got into the element of humor in
writing?
Sure.
Well, it's not I I got into humor.
I wasn't connected to to writing.
Okay.
That's what I fell in love with.
(05:10):
It it these jobs, they're not things that youcan learn in school.
It's really a lot of apprentice.
You can teach someone how to be a musician.
You can teach them the fundamentals, but thenfinding their voice to be a composer or finding
their voice musically, if you compare it tothat, it's really experience.
There's no substitute for experience.
(05:31):
I thought I wanted to be a journalist untilbecause that was sort of the I have a short
attention span, but it's short and it goesdeep.
So, journalism seemed like something that wouldwork when I was in and this is in high school.
I mean, trying to imagine what I wanted to do.
And I used to watch these news magazine shows,and I thought that seems interesting.
(05:51):
People get to go all over the world and getreally into a story.
And then the following week, it's a differentstory.
That appealed to me.
And then I was watching one of those newsmagazine shoot shows, and they did a behind the
scenes of a sitcom that I really liked that wasabout broadcast journalism.
It was Murphy Brown.
I don't know if
people
have kids of age.
(06:11):
And I was in high school at the time.
And they did a behind the scenes, and it wasn'tjust the actors behind the scenes.
They went to this magical place called theWriter's Room.
And I was living in Philadelphia in thesuburbs.
I had no connection with show business at all.
And the Writer's Room was a room full of guys.
It was mostly guys.
(06:31):
It was, like, 10 guys around a conference roomtable.
And their entire job so it'd be one person'sjob to write the script for that week's show,
and then it would be everyone else's job to gothrough that script line by line to make every
line funnier, not just funnier, but funnier inthe voice of the character.
Mhmm.
(06:52):
And so it's a room full of people who wereprofessionally funny who got to hang out with
other people who were professionally funny.
It just this and they got paid for it.
I mean, to me, that was just the most it's theonly thing I ever wanted to do.
Once I knew it was a job, it was just genuinelythe only thing I ever wanted to do.
And I I went to college because it both myparents were the first in their generation to
(07:16):
in their families to go to college.
So me not going was not an option.
So I went and I studied communication, but itwas very academic.
It wasn't anything that I've ever used.
And then I moved to Los Angeles, and I startedas a a PA, as a gopher.
They call you a gopher because it's literallygopher this, gopher that.
(07:37):
Go buy 40 coffees at Starbucks or go drivescripts around because it was pre Internet, pre
really pre fax, so they would send out thepages.
There were new pages every day because thethere would be often a table read of the script
on a Monday, and then they would shoot thescript in front of a live studio audience on
Friday.
And so from Tuesday to Friday, the writers inthat writer's room were it was evolving.
(08:05):
So, rehearsals during the day and then in thewriters' room, it was evolving.
So, then, when I moved up to writer's assistantor PA, people were it was my job to drive those
new pages around so people the actors couldshow up prepared the next morning.
And I basically sort of worked my tail off andthrough attrition.
(08:27):
At some point, I wore people down and gotopportunities and got writing jobs, and then
those jobs continued.
But that was the path I took into it.
I saw it.
I fell in love with it, and nothing else cameclose.
So I essentially apprenticed myself to it.
To the career that you have and then ultimatelyinto business.
(08:50):
Now, what was the one thing that you learnedearly about writing?
Because I always think that humor, there'suniversality with some things, right?
But when I think of humor, like I think of someof the skits that you see on Saturday Night
Live or whatever, when you think of a tableread, they go through and through and through.
Like you said, if they do a Monday to a Fridayor whoever who you're writing for, how is it
(09:12):
that they decide what's funny?
Do they gauge it based on whether because funnypeople are funny.
Right?
Or how do they know if the average person isgonna connect with the kind of what's weaved in
the humor wise into a skit?
The stuff that I the career that I ended uphaving was a lot of comedy variety.
So I ended up on shows that were five days aweek.
(09:33):
So there wasn't a lot of time for a table read.
There was sort of what happened in the newstoday at 04:00.
This was gonna be on the air, and there's arehearsal somewhere in between.
But, really, it's this will sound like a smartaleck answer, but it's do people laugh?
Do the people in the room laugh?
And when you have a room full of funny people,it's tough to get a laugh because it's I guess
(09:56):
it's like having a room full of chefs.
If they'll taste something, they'll go, oh,yeah.
That's good.
But imagine what it takes for them to go, oh mygod.
That's the best thing I've ever tasted.
Right.
Right.
Right.
So the reactions but I think people know.
I I think you have a sense of if it makes theroom laugh, that's usually how in rehearsal, if
(10:19):
the camera guys laugh, if the camera operatorslaugh, the people who've just seen everything,
you know, the guys who've been there for twentyfive years.
Right.
Right.
Who who are sort of half listening.
If you can make them laugh, then the generalpopulation is gonna love it.
And but all that said, sometimes things don'tland.
But for the same reason some of those thingsdon't land, if you sort of took it back to the
(10:44):
shop and looked at it, it's often the samesorts of reasons that things don't land if
you're a speaker.
And you think, gee, thought really thought thatwas funny, but it didn't get much.
Sometimes it's maybe the wording was a littlesoft.
Maybe it it because everybody knew thepunchline you were getting to, it felt right in
(11:04):
the planning of it.
But then the audience, there might have been apiece of information they didn't have or a word
that needed to be at the very end of it was alittle buried.
So or it sometimes it's just in the delivery ifpeople can't hear the punchline either
literally or hear the punchline sort offiguratively.
(11:25):
If it can go right past them, if if there's notsome sort of audible cue that it's a punchline.
If you hear me speaking now, my voice goes up.
Or if I'm gonna emphasize something, I mighttake a small beat.
Because there are things that I'm doing thatthere's subtle cues that I'm well, that I'm
(11:48):
enjoying what I'm saying, but there's subtlecues that I want you to enjoy what it is that
I'm saying.
And so there's usually a way to problem solvethings if they don't work.
But
So there's a stage crafting that will actuallycome of it even if you've written the speech or
(12:08):
the story to for the person delivering it aswell.
Like, to your point, so you could take twodifferent people delivering the same message,
but it's the way like you said, whether it'selevating your voice or stopping or leaning
into the audience or some whatever your the wayyou hold your body, those types of things.
Obviously, there's a crafting bit that goeswith it as well.
(12:29):
Yeah.
There's a physicality to it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's also but when I work with speakers andI work with everyone from because a big because
I speak to businesses about how to use humor inleadership and how to use it for connection and
in sales and things like that.
But I also work one to one with a lot ofspeakers.
(12:50):
And about half my clientele are these fivefigure big, you know, queso grande big cheese
speakers.
But the rest of them are father of the bridewho's terrified and has never really spoken in
public before.
Owns a tire warehouse and but his daughter'sgetting married and wants to give a great
(13:12):
speech.
So you don't necessarily need to be a seasonedspeaker.
That's where it comes into my for me,understanding what's funny on the page.
And what I talk about in in both cases is thattruth is funny.
If you wanna mix no matter what you're tryingto do, don't try to be funny.
(13:33):
Truth is funny.
So all all we do as comedians is observe andreport truth.
So instead of trying to because an audience cansmell it when you're trying too hard.
Everyone's been to stand up or an open micnight or something or had a boss or a father
(13:54):
who who made jokes and uh-huh.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Oh.
You'll get yeah.
You'll get a reaction, but you got a nice one.
Yeah.
I see what you did there.
But if you can sort of have a what really landswith people and creates an emotional connection
is simply being a little bit vulnerable andstating funny truth.
(14:18):
And if you're looking for funny truth or whenprofessionals look for funny truth, there's two
main places that we look for it, and one isself awareness and one is specificity.
And so this goes from every Netflix special tothe father of the bride to just a leader trying
to relieve a little tension.
(14:39):
Self awareness.
I don't mean being self deprecating.
I mean self awareness, which is simplyacknowledging whatever the audience or the
other person might be noticing or thinking.
If I've got my arm in a cast and I walk out onstage, I better say something about the fact
that my arm's in a cast because people arenoticing it.
When I did stand up, I mean, I've got shorthair.
(15:02):
I people would jump to a conclusion.
I'm a woman with short hair.
So I had to, at some point, in the first minuteor two, acknowledge it somehow because
otherwise those things become a potentialdistraction.
So that's just self awareness.
Be aware of how you're coming across to people,which is also one of the number one things they
teach in leadership training.
(15:23):
Be aware of the impact that you have and beaware of how you interact with people.
How do other people see you?
And then specificity is simply, if truth isfunny, then the details of that truth are
hilarious because we're all quirky.
We're it's I mean, if I ask you, it it's thesort of what did you have for breakfast?
And you go, well, I had I had some cereal.
(15:45):
No.
No.
What did you have?
Well, okay.
It was actually was granola, I poured it intothe bowl, and then we didn't have any milk.
But we had a little heavy cream and someyogurt.
So I put one spoonful of each of those thingsin there, figuring somehow that'll balance it
out.
And I didn't have any fresh fruit, so I thoughtI have strawberry jam.
Why not?
And then I took a bite of it and realized mygranola was stale.
(16:06):
This is all this is actually what happened thismorning.
I realized my granola was kinda stale.
So I put I put more jelly in.
I put more strawberry jam in because reallywasn't anything else in the house that I I felt
like eating.
And then just mixed it up into just a pastethat you could use to hang wallpaper.
But I'm imagining the consistency in my mouth.
(16:29):
Oh, yeah.
It was a workout.
It it was it really got the morning started,and then I had a double espresso with that.
So but that specificity.
So is that a hilarious story?
No.
But does it tell you something about me?
Does it make you feel a little bit moreconnected to me?
I I think think if she's laid back, she makesdo with what she has, and if it doesn't work
(16:52):
out, she iterates.
Yeah and have you done the same thing?
Oh goodness, oh goodness, relatable.
It's the time in different scenariosabsolutely.
You're thinking well I don't have this but I'mgoing to try this.
Yeah, it's great.
Will never do that again or wow, that's prettyinnovative.
Exactly.
It's and that's just that's all specificity is.
(17:14):
It's just it's often it's the story behind whathappened and and it's storytelling without
having always to tell the story.
I love that.
I love that approach.
Right?
Because I think when I was creating my keynote,you're writing and you're trying all these
things.
Right?
And then you're like, it's like, I'll do acouple more PhDs instead of doing this damn
(17:34):
speech.
And then you realize it's because you're tryingso hard to get the thing right.
But I love what you just did there, Beth, whichwas just kinda, I'm gonna just tell you a
story.
And you're telling a story, like you said, I'mgonna screw up that word.
Exactly.
We all become Sylvester the cat when we try tosay it.
(17:56):
Yes.
It's so simple and I'm just thinking ofapplying it for leaders, right?
And when they're trying to deliver somethingthat maybe isn't fun or whatever, and they're
maybe talking about their morning before theyleft the house kind of thing to kind of create
that element that I'm just kind of just likeyou by that story.
(18:20):
And that was like we talk about, like you said,humour and connection.
Because a lot of times leaders, because of whothey are perceived as having to be the people
in charge, they have everything figured out,all that stuff, and they're just like me and
you, right?
And they're trying to get through a day.
But people that are very kind of, I would say,autocratic in their approach, they feel like
(18:43):
they can't show who they really are, which issuch a sad thing for them to be able to learn
that skill, to be able to You could still dobusiness very well, but relatability, it
becomes so easy, like from what you're saying,just by being able to tell a story.
But it doesn't have to be a grandiose storyabout something huge or big.
(19:04):
Something as simple as having old granola withsome
And there's a great quote from James Joyce,author of Ulysses, noted funny man.
He is a great he wasn't talking about comedy atthe time, I don't think.
But the quote is, in the particular lies theuniversal.
The more specific something is, the morerelatable it is.
(19:28):
Yeah.
It's just really often just a little bit ofvulnerability.
And then when I speak to groups on leadershipor I when I speak about humor and leadership,
and I always have to be careful to say, I'musing the word humor, but I just really mean
how can you create trust and rapport?
I I use the example of there there's a friendof mine here who is a former British I always
(19:49):
wanna say special forces, he he always correctsme.
Commando.
British forces commando.
And he traveled all over the world very high upand deployed in war zones all over the world.
And we've had some great conversations about hehow he used humor as a tool and how important
he thought it was.
(20:10):
He actually called it a force multiplier, whichI thought was really cool.
This guy is six foot four.
I mean, he's exactly what you picture when youthink commando, big army commando man.
And one of the examples that he used is when hewould have to meet with village elders to get
them to do whatever it was he needed them to door get their help at least with to to work with
(20:36):
them.
So so he had to build trust and rapport in thisvery tense situation very quickly.
And, again, this guy's six foot four, wouldhave been in fatigues and armed to the teeth.
And he's using the word we're using the wordhumor, but he's not gonna be a clown.
He's not gonna go in and be try to be acomedian.
(20:56):
But he said he would do small things, like be alittle bit awkward with the local custom.
Or if they give them the drink of the localbooze, sort of give it a little extra something
as it goes down.
Just a tiny little bit of vulnerability.
Whatever you had to do to get a little bit of asmile.
You're talking about using humor to say thingsbetween the lines.
(21:21):
And I asked him, so what were you sayingbetween the lines when you were doing those
things?
And he didn't hesitate for a second.
He said, I was trying to say that inside thisuniform, there is a person.
Even though I'm a big guy with a lot of seriousthings that I have to achieve, I could be a
little bit bumbly too or I could be
(21:41):
He was willing to be that tiny little bitvulnerable.
He wasn't giving away anything.
He was still mister big army commando man, butnot but he was willing to be just a tiny bit
vulnerable.
And people see that, and it just releasessometimes, it's just releasing that little bit
of tension or just showing that you're tryingto be a person.
(22:02):
And I don't think that undermines credibility.
If you think
that
undermined his credibility, I'll give you hisaddress.
I'm not gonna tell him.
You can.
You know?
Six foot four army commando man.
Oh, yeah.
No.
Of course not.
So it's a subtlety of what I like about whatwe're talking about, Beth, it's it doesn't have
to be so contrived.
(22:23):
It could be something really subtle or simplein allowing people to just see who Beth is or
who the commando guy is.
But ultimately, I think a fear, and I knowsometimes leaders worry about that credibility
element, right?
You know, if I'm too quote unquote emotionallyavailable, I'm not gonna be credible and then
(22:47):
people are gonna take my direction, and thenthings are gonna fall apart kind of thing.
If you think about most a lot of leaders thatwill say went to the business schools and stuff
like that, they learn how to lead and fromcertain models, those types of things.
And we know that what's needed more so is justshoulder to shoulder, right?
Like to be able
to Absolutely.
A lot of experts are afraid to kind of takethat step sometimes.
(23:09):
They want to be relatable, but they're not surehow to do it.
It's all relative.
I mean, to me, it's the same as adding humor toa keynote.
It's humor is seasoning.
It's not the main ingredient.
Right?
So you just want a little if you think of itlike salt.
So some situations on stage or in a leadershipposition or not leadership, but I mean, there
(23:34):
are moments when it's appropriate to be alittle saltier, to have a more generous hand
with the seasoning.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But even just a little bit.
Think about a few flakes of sea salt onchocolate.
It's transformative.
Right?
So if you're a leader, maybe it's just havingthe self awareness.
(23:55):
If you know that maybe it's a little bit ofunderstatement.
Maybe it's just when something doesn't go wellgo that didn't work.
Maybe it's just a tiny thing or maybe it's justa tiny a tiny bit of self awareness.
If you have if you know how you come across topeople, if you know that people are thinking,
(24:15):
if he starts talking, it's gonna be fortyminutes at least.
If you go, this I'm only gonna keep you for aminute.
Okay?
It'll probably be fifteen.
If you just have that just that tiny little bitof self awareness, if you're reflecting back to
your audience or your team or whoever it is,what's in that thought bubble above their head?
(24:37):
And that's what creates emotional connection.
That's what makes people feel seen and heardbecause it's all a dialogue interpersonally.
Right?
Even if you're on the only one on stage holdinga microphone, it's a dialogue between you and
the audience.
If you're a leader and you're speaking to oneperson or your entire team, even if you're the
(24:58):
only one speaking, it's still a dialogue.
They are they all have their own opinion.
They all have anything you can do to connectwith them emotionally and also remove any
potential distractions.
We've all been in meetings watching someonespeak and you you can just feel everyone's
catching each other's eye, everything's go it'sineffective.
(25:19):
So if you're a leader, can you acknowledge whatthat elephant in the room is so that everyone
else isn't obsessed with it?
So you're not you're not losing your crowd andsay, you're naming it in the room and then to
kind of get them back to where you want them tobe.
Because it's more awkward to pretend everything
Is okay.
(25:39):
Is is okay.
Yeah.
And it doesn't and you don't again, you don'thave to be touchy feely kumbaya.
It's just it's can you reflect back some partof what's in the thought bubble above the heads
of the people or person that you're speakingto?
Because they're all having thoughts about youand what you're saying and, oh my goodness,
(26:02):
here's
Or the situation.
Or the situation.
The situation.
To maybe communicate about the new IT programthat everybody hates and you're gonna come and
we're gonna talk about the what an impressivesystem and how this is gonna make every and
everybody's going, what?
I don't know.
Yeah.
You thinking?
If you could speak to point, then peopleBecause you're kind of thinking what people be
(26:23):
thinking?
And you're actually, like you said, withspecificity, I'll get that word.
Then you can bring it back into the room andthe related ability.
Because I talk a lot about, in my second book,about return on relationship versus return on
investment.
Because I will say to leaders, if you're ableto be aware, right, and you're taking it down
(26:45):
even further with the element of humour, ifyou're aware that you come across kind of down
the middle, you get more microscopic whenyou're stressed, and you can say, I'm going to
be really laissez faire today, they're going tolaugh because they know that's not you kind of
thing.
So I think I like that element because youcould poke a bit of fun at not being
(27:07):
denigrating, like you said, but a little bit offun at yourself so that they could say, Wow,
Roxanne gets that.
It's all relative.
Yeah, exactly.
The more buttoned up you are, the less ittakes.
Then there really is those sea salt flakes ofsea salt on chocolate.
Working with speakers who say, I'm not funny.
Great.
Or I'm not
That would be me.
I would say that.
(27:28):
I'd be like, I'm not funny.
And then you realize you are funny.
I grew up in Trinidad, Beth, where there'ssomething called, the term in Trinidad is
called fatigue, which is basically making fun,right?
And basically people sit around and they tellstories.
We call it cracking jokes, right?
Which is literally, you're kind of just tellinga story and that some people are just better at
(27:50):
it.
But even as children, you see that, you know,we all kind of start to learn to, which is,
it's such a, it's a nice place to hang out too,right, obviously.
Because you just have conversations aboutnothing sometimes.
But you're learning that whole element of, likeyou said, to your point, connection.
With leaders that are listening and they'rethinking, my goodness, I'm just so, like you
(28:12):
said, buttoned up and I realize that I need towork.
I'm a good leader, but I'm kind of not maybe myteam wouldn't say I'm as much fun as I could be
or as approachable.
What are some quick things that we alreadytalked a little bit about that, like little
things they can do?
Is there anything, a couple steps that youwould suggest they consider?
(28:35):
I'm gonna sound like I'm being a smart aleck.
I don't mean it that way.
Show that there is a person somewhere inside ifsomething amusing happens.
Just smile because everyone's probably gonnalook at you to see if you are or not.
And if you, you know, and if you smile in spiteof yourself and you don't like I mean, you can
also just say, you didn't see that.
I mean, even that, simply because in that,you're really saying, I know that how you see
(29:00):
me.
I know that you think that I never ever smile.
Simply acknowledging that is is something thatyou can do.
I would invite you to share something aboutyourself or ask people how you come across.
I realize there are dynamics in business whereyou can't always be as open, but there's
probably there are probably opportunities whenyou can say, alright.
(29:24):
Well, if you were doing an impression of me,what would it be?
And you'll get it immediately.
Yeah.
And then it so just but just really, honestly,the easiest one is simply to smile and simply
to acknowledge the elephant in the room whenit's there.
It doesn't undermine your credibility toacknowledge the fact that you are human.
(29:48):
Yeah.
And I've been in those meetings over mycorporate career, and the house is on fire, and
the leader at the front of the room is actinglike nothing's going on.
Not one of us obviously was listening.
When there's a merger or an acquisition comingdown or something bad happened at the quarterly
board meeting or something like that.
And technically that leader could have doneanything and we're to have gotten our
(30:11):
attention.
But some people are so unaware to your point.
You talked a lot about awareness.
And they're just they have five things theyhave to get across and they don't care what's
going on and they keep at it.
And that works across purposes to what theyshould be doing, which is
because there's such a big distraction thatpeople aren't listening.
Yeah.
I was at a professional organization that I'm amember of, was having some financial
(30:37):
difficulties.
And there were people were stepping down, andthere were all sorts of things happening.
And then all of this sort of played out in inthe couple of weeks before the yearly
conference.
The big conference where everyone comes andYeah.
It's also a lot of fun.
And so the interim president kicked off theconference.
We all showed up.
But I know I had that thought bubble above myhead of, yeah, is this gonna overshadow the
(31:02):
whole conference?
Is this gonna be this whole thing just gonna bea drag now?
And so the interim president, who was theinterim president because of all the
reshuffling, opened opened with before even thefirst keynote, he opened with before I say
anything else, I have to acknowledge theelephant in the room.
(31:22):
There is no elephant.
We can't afford one.
And it it was such a small thing, but it Yeah.
Yeah.
Everything that was between the lines in thatwas I know there's a whole bunch going on, but
let's relieve a little bit of that tension.
Just it was it got a massive I mean, it itbrought the house down because it it it
(31:46):
acknowledged exactly what everybody wasthinking.
And it and it let everybody kind of take abreath and think, okay.
This isn't gonna overshadow the next threedays.
I mean, it's obviously it's an issue.
It's a big issue.
But we're gonna be able to laugh.
Yeah.
See your Emmys in the I see your Emmys in theback there.
(32:09):
I just looked over.
There's two of them.
I'm not allowed to keep them all out.
It would just be
It would be too fluttered.
Obnoxious.
I
didn't even have these out.
I just looked over and I went, oh, I know whatthose are.
I got tired of being asked, how come you don'thave any of them out?
Then, oh, if you want to get speaking gigs whenyou have those discovery calls, you should have
(32:31):
them out.
Talking about self awareness as a tool.
Like, I didn't want to not have self awareness.
I mean, self awareness is I
I just have it to look over.
I thought, oh, I think I know what that is.
I'm still torn between the self awareness ofpeople being impressed by them and it sort of
helping add to my credibility and the selfawareness of I'm not sure what I would think if
someone else had them out.
(32:53):
So
Oh, think I just I'm totally because again,you're talking about the writing and as a
writer as well, I write, but that element ofconnection, like when you write anything,
people want to experience you in the writing,right?
That's the thing about now being an author.
And when you say my dad wrote my read my firstbook, and my sisters are like, oh my goodness,
(33:16):
you so would say that sentence that way.
So you could tell, right?
So that whole element.
And then your element of talking about takingsomething and kind of peppering it with little
elements to connect with others is anotherlevel, right?
Whether it's a, like you said, at end of yourmeeting, if you're a CEO or you're Monday
morning meeting once a week kind of thing, youhave a responsibility to really refine what
(33:42):
you're doing so that you can deliver the bestpossible message.
Right?
You don't always have to be on a stage oranything like that because it it could be as
impressive as that one to one person that yousee every Wednesday at that check-in meeting to
be able to connect to them because that's awhole element is just understanding what it
takes to connect with somebody else.
(34:03):
Yeah.
I mean, if something crazy happens or if you'rea speaker or a leader, adding humor or that
relatability can be as simple as using, one,being just being honest.
Mhmm.
But using an example, if you're trying to ifyou're talking about customer service or
(34:24):
customer experience, what was your first job?
How did it go wrong?
What did customers not enjoy about you?
What did customer who were you difficultcustomers?
What were their exact be specific then.
What were their exact criticisms?
If you're looking for things firsts and worstsare usually stories.
(34:45):
Worst
job, worst version of this, worst if you'retalking about your own experience, your own
learning curve, what were the speed bumps thatyou hit along your learning curve?
It's okay to be a little bit vulnerable.
Also, analogies.
Find organic or organic opportunities to addhumor in your talk or in your content or even
(35:08):
just in your networking, but using analogies.
Sometimes have some fun with them.
Go to you know, it doesn't have to be full onsetup punchline.
It can it it should well, it should always bein the service of the greater point that you're
making.
(35:28):
Humor is a seasoning.
It's not the main ingredient.
You are the main ingredient.
Your message is the main ingredient.
And humor and, again, I'm sort of now usingthat word in quotes.
But there should always be an intent behind it.
(35:49):
It shouldn't be gratuitous.
Because if it's gratuitous, that becomes adistraction.
But if you're using it to make a point ofsometimes you have to deal with difficult
customers, give us a good example.
Or if your point is you've been through asimilar journey and you got out the other side,
what were some real things that happened duringthat or that are relatable?
(36:13):
They might be a tiny bit embarrassing, butyou're using it in the service of explaining to
other people this stuff isn't easy.
Failure is part of the process.
Yeah.
Of course.
So, Beth, this has been an amazingconversation.
I love how you just deconstructed it in a waythat's easy to understand, whether you're a
(36:35):
speaker that's gonna be on a platform or you'regonna have the dreadly management meeting once
a week kind of thing, and you're trying tothink about how you could just have people just
see you for who you are.
And then like you said, I love the analogy ofthe salt on the chalk.
I can remember that now, right?
So that everything doesn't I don't feel like Ihave to be cracking a joke every time or
(37:00):
whatever.
And I think too, if you are doing it moreprofessionally, that refinement, that Like your
example of the Monday lead to the Friday, kindof how much work it takes for you to be with a
room full of If it's 10 guys writing andrewriting and laughing and writing, how much
work it takes to really perfect things.
(37:22):
And then, like you said, you go out there andmost of it works, but sometimes it doesn't.
But you have to really work hard to make thingsbetter.
Yeah.
And don't give up on it.
I write, I speak all the time.
I go out and
I think, I thought that was going to getsomething else.
But don't give up on it.
Think of it again, this is what happens when Ido podcasts around dinnertime.
(37:42):
But if you think of it like a recipe Yeah.
It's another food analogy coming.
But if you think of it like a recipe, firsttime you make a recipe, if it doesn't come out
perfectly, it might come out fine.
And you're like, oh, this is fine.
Yeah.
You don't sort
of say, I'm never making spaghetti bologneseagain.
You think, oh, it's fine.
But I think next time, probably more garlic,probably more salt, probably Yeah.
(38:06):
Maybe a little cream, a little bit of this, alittle bit of that.
I'm gonna leave that out.
I'm gonna add that.
That's all.
It's iterative.
It doesn't mean that it doesn't work and itnever will work or be a crowd pleaser.
Absolutely.
So, Beth, I'm sure people that are listeningwill want to know kind of what you offer and
kind of what, like you said, you work withbusinesses around the element of connection, of
(38:30):
which humor is one of the ways you do that.
Why don't you tell everybody what you offer andif every anybody is wanting to reach out and
connect where they can get ahold of you.
I my very clever website is bethsherman.com.
That's you don't get daytime Emmys for nothing.
So that's my website.
(38:51):
And, yeah, I I speak and I do master classes onhow to use how to connect with people, how to
speak with impact, how to use humor inleadership.
But really, again, it's taking leadership backinto just simply being a people skill and how
do you create emotional connection, how do youbuild trust and rapport with people in
(39:13):
leadership?
And I speak a lot of sales conferences.
And I also work one to one with speakers whowant help adding seasoning to the to their
keynotes so that they are not just morememorable, but more engaging and, as speakers,
more bookable.
Because people really leave having enjoyed itand having taken away they leave with a message
(39:39):
that you wanna put in them.
Because laughter and smiles create theiremotion, and emotion is a it's necessary to
build trust.
It it can be you can create tears.
It's just less fun.
But emotion is a building block of trust, andyou need trust before you're gonna get people
to take action.
(40:00):
And that action could be buying from you orworking with your company, but it could just be
as small as giving you the benefit of the doubtand continuing to listen to you for another few
minutes.
Well, awesome.
For everybody thinking of putting a little bitof sea salt on their chocolate in whatever
element, please reach out to Beth.
And for me, if you're looking to find out aboutyour authentic connections and relationships,
(40:24):
you can go to RoxanderHodgefor.com/quiz.
We will do a mini quiz, and we'll send you backthe results with some next steps.
Again, Beth, this has been amazing.
I am going to now go review my keynote andthink about where I need to work on things.
For the leaders that are thinking it doesn'thave to be a huge thing, to Beth's point.
(40:44):
It could be something really simple, likementioning what's going on in everybody's mind
that you know you're not addressing.
It could be that simple to be able to createthat connection.
So everyone, thanks for hanging out with usagain.
Give us a review on iTunes if you liked today'spodcast, and reach out to Beth, and we'll chat
again with you next week.
(41:04):
Again, Beth, thanks so much.
Take care, everyone.
Thank you.
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive,
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach.
To work with Roxanne, visitRoxanneDurhaj.com/blueprint.
(41:26):
We'll see you next time on Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
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