February 24, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode, Roxanne Derhodge and Brandi Heather explore the transformative power of play. They discuss the neuroscience behind play and its impact on team dynamics, emphasizing safe environments for play within organizations. The conversation highlights play's role in high performance, resilience, conflict resolution, and trauma recovery. They challenge societal stigmas and discuss the consequences of suppressing authenticity. The episode concludes with practical tips for integrating play into daily routines and how leadership can use play to build trust.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, aplace where we have conscious conversations
about things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
(00:40):
Hi, everyone.
It's Roxanne Derr Hodge.
Thanks for tuning in again today.
Today, I have a colleague, Brandy Heather.
And, Brandy is a a professional speaker, andshe's, been doing this kind of work for a long
time.
And we'll let her get jump into that, but shegets the fun things.
Right?
And she's the fun version.
So I I gotta tell you the story, which was fun.
(01:04):
At our professional association, we had our itwas our annual meeting in Quebec, and I was
unfortunately paired against Brandy on anotherteam.
And all I can say to you is she knows how toplay and win at all odds because I think I
might have caught her cheating, but not thatshe admitted to it, but that was my first real
(01:27):
interaction with Brandy.
And it was hilarious, by the way, I should tellyou, because I I did when I looked over and I
looked at her again, she goes, what are youlooking at?
I remember you said.
I said, are you Cheech?
She goes, absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
So she, Brandy, works predominantly with playand innovation and creativity and how that
impacts us in our lives.
(01:48):
And, you know, what I was drawn back to waswhen being exposed to you and our other
colleague there was when we were playing atthat event, how much nothing else mattered
other than being in the moment.
And I hope today that with our conversation,that Brandy will be able to kind of share some
of her wonderful insight into something thatnaturally as children we do and then how we
(02:12):
kind of are taught by society to grow out of itand then how it's so important to reimplement
it at some point.
So, Rene, welcome welcome, to the show.
Thank you.
It's time to be here.
Yeah.
So what what else would you like people to knowabout your background that you think might be
helpful for this discussion that we're gonnahave today?
(02:33):
Sure.
People often ask me, like, why play?
Like, where does where does play come from?
And I get I have lots of answers for that.
For me, what I found was I taught as auniversity, as a college professor for twenty
years, and I taught in a world of inclusion anddisability inclusion and accessibility.
(02:54):
And what I knew for sure was in order to thinkcreatively, in order to think about solutions
that maybe weren't there or could be there,that people really had to have this open sense
of possibility and potential in in everyenvironment they could see.
And when I could hear it and see it and peoplethat really loved what they were doing, and you
(03:17):
could see that even though there was greatchallenge, there was also great joy.
And for a long time, I wasn't sure exactly whatthat was.
And then someone said to me one day, you knowwhat?
We really love being in your classes.
And, you know, I said, like, what is that?
Because it it is something.
And they said, I think it's play.
(03:37):
I think it's that when you're doing what you'redoing, you look like you're in play and you
make us feel like we're in play.
And that actually was part of the key to itthat I I didn't know if I could put my finger
on for a long time.
I could see it in other people.
I I worked with kids for a long time, so Icould always see the joy in them and, you know,
(03:58):
what that did for them.
But I didn't really put my finger on it for along time and then realized, oh, it is play.
And I should dig into what how that helps us tobe successful.
And as a big player as a kid, I I love to beoutside.
I grew up in a family with a father who's anartist, so I was very surrounded by it.
So the why play for me comes from I've seen it.
(04:20):
I've seen what it does to change people'snervous system and how they feel about
themselves and what they how they connect withothers.
So I've really seen it for a long time.
So yeah.
But it's funny that you talk about nervoussystem.
Right?
Because it's through a lots of events that I'vebeen involved with where there's been team
building and and, you know, I've run teams overmy career, and it's quite fascinating how many
(04:42):
things come up through play as well.
So I have this one.
I ran a unit at a hospital, Brandy, and we'redoing I think it was like a trust access.
It would but it was a fun and you could see howpeople got guarded.
Right?
Because I don't know if it's me growing up in afamily of six, and I was just like, oh, yeah.
I'm all out.
And the person could kinda hold me.
And the one I remember one of my teammatessaid, how come you weren't scared?
(05:04):
And I said, because, like, I'm around you guys,and I can close my eyes and I can but, clearly,
there was within that environment, Brandy, youcould see the people that struggled with, I
can't trust, so I can't do this exercise, or Ican't do this.
And they couldn't just get into it because theythey were bringing so many different things.
(05:26):
So in play then, you know, when you're workingwith a team so maybe you tell us kinda how you
work through things because I was thinking ofthose particular individuals, and I knew that
there was some issues going on, but it itheightened, when they went into, you know, this
event.
And I wonder how play might have how how youuse play and what you do when things like that
(05:50):
come up.
Yeah.
Well, one thing that we know for sure is thatwe can't play, when we are scared.
We can't play where there is fear.
And so for me, it's always to walk into play ina trustworthy way.
So many people, when we think about play, theyactually do have a very heightened response.
(06:14):
It's a it can be very much pushback on whatwhat play looks like and what they think of it,
especially in business settings andsurroundings.
And so when we talk about play, I actuallyaddress that right up front.
And that is that for many people, the word playactually ignites their nervous system to think
(06:35):
this is silly and unproductive, and so I'm notlistening.
And so if we start there and we turn off ourbrains to learning and what's possible, then
that doesn't lead into a session where we canlearn very much.
So I actually walk into play very carefully.
I walk into it in a way that people in the roomfeel safe, that people don't in any way feel
(06:58):
silly in what they do.
Because, again, if I want people to understandthe effect that it can have, then I have to
create an environment where they feel like theycan be, you know, in they can be resourceful.
Right?
That they can be themselves.
And so working in play is partly a game oftrust.
(07:21):
And so walking into a situation where peopleknowing that people may push back on that and
also being able to see it in their bodylanguage and all of those pieces.
So I'm very astute at being able to read aroom.
And so when we walk into play, we don't talkfirst about play or get into play right away.
We do things that actually just ignitecuriosity and yeah.
(07:47):
Again, it it needs to be safe or it can't beplay.
Like, we can't
But I would think that.
Right?
It's like a litmus test.
It's like a litmus test, I would think.
Because I'm just thinking, you know, of some ofthe environments I've worked in, there where
there was a little bit unresolved things ormaybe there's nepotism between different levels
of the organization.
And then if you're coming in blind, obviously,you might be walking into, you know, a hornet's
(08:11):
nest potentially because all that stuff's gonnaplay out like it's like street theater, I would
say.
It's gonna be Absolutely.
People picking each other and all that stuff.
So when, you get a request, let's say, so yourrequest can come in what ways?
Because I I think it I I think of the fun partof you not telling the truth and winning,
(08:31):
against my team on when before I go back.
But that's another thing aside.
But so is it that there's some kind ofproductivity issue?
Is there that there's conflict?
Is it that we've got new teammates and we wannaintegrate it?
What what in what ways might you be called in?
Because I'm just thinking for leaders that arelistening, that are thinking, how do I fit this
(08:54):
in?
One of the things that that I get called onmany times is organizations where leadership is
feeling like things are stagnant or they're notmoving, that there's maybe a an issue in
processing or organizational resilience.
Like, they're just feeling like their team isjust needs something.
(09:15):
I often get that kind of blank opening.
Like, our team just needs something.
Right.
And we need we're not connecting.
We're not collaborating, and we're not surewhat that is.
And so a lot of what I do is go in and justgive a totally different lens and perspective
on the people in the room.
So for an example, I just worked with theleadership team a couple weeks ago that brought
(09:40):
me in, and we were just working on the factthat some people were not working in a space in
which they felt confident and capable.
And we found that out when we were just playingwith working on doing some building activities,
when we're working on collaborating.
We found out, oh, actually, there's a lot ofpeople who are not in alignment with the things
(10:01):
that they're really good at.
So the things that they're really good at arebeing suppressed, and the things that make them
feel like they would take risks and talk toother people and collaborate with other people,
those are actually not happening in their work.
And so the work that I do actually helps themrecognize it first in themselves.
Wow.
There are things that that I love about what Ido, and there are things that are totally out
(10:23):
of alignment for my skills.
And so by the end of the day, people reallycome back to this, k.
Maybe people aren't we aren't asking people theright things to do, but, also, I show them the
effect that stress and overwhelm and not beingin alignment with what you're really good at,
(10:43):
what the effect of that is on people's bodies.
Right?
Like, when our nervous system is is on fight orflight all the time, we we may work for an
organization that has massive challenges withsolution finding and problem solving and and
needs that kind of integrative seamlessdiscussions happening.
And when it's not happening, oftentimes, it'sbecause people's nervous systems are so out of
(11:08):
alignment.
And when I can move them to a playful spacewhere they're kind of what we talked about when
you said at the beginning, when people arekinda they're lost in the moment, when we can
get into that space, then I can really moveteams into noticing because that's the key.
The key is noticing that when people are notplaying or excited and when they're not really
(11:36):
using all of their skills, which then makes itvery difficult to run a a high performance
unit.
So
And I guess when I listen to you, right,because, like, I know when I play, like, I'm
giddy and, you know, it's kinda like you'refloating back in time.
I remember my I'll give you an example.
Like, I'd I grew up in a family of six, and, ofcourse, we I grew up in Trinidad, Brandy, so
(11:58):
there was no snow, no thought of snow.
Now I understand why.
But, anyway, we had these terrazzo floors, andDonnie and Marie was the thing.
Right?
So I'm dating myself that back then.
Yeah.
So we would put baby powder like we wereskating.
Remember?
They used to be on skates and all.
You know, you set your think up now that youthought, oh, wow.
(12:21):
I did that as a kid.
What I think happens though is our society, assoon as kids get to a certain age, and I want
you to speak to this, you being the expert inthis, we start to talk people out of play
inadvertently.
Like, I mean, oh, aren't you too old to do bedoing that or why do you believe you know,
(12:45):
like, I was out with my friend's, grandson andhe he believes he's Spider Man.
He goes, Roxy, when I put this over my head,I'll become Spider Man and beware.
And I and he was like and I'm like, the beautyof the mind of imagination and stuff like that.
But that being said, in our systems, differentsystems, we start to kinda almost pull that
(13:08):
away.
Right?
And Oh, absolutely.
How do you by the time you're seeing teams,people have been practicing not having fun.
For a long time.
For a long time.
Right?
Then they're
probably like, what is the other woman gonnatell me what to do?
And I'm gonna have fun and, you know, you know,at work, doesn't she know it's serious?
(13:29):
Do you you must run up against that at work.
All the time.
And the the piece about children actually, thesaddest piece of all of this is that children
younger and younger and younger are starting tounderstand that play is not part of the real
world.
Right?
That the playing isn't going to get youanywhere.
(13:51):
And I I mean, I could talk for hours about how
you could change it.
Like, and I I and I know you could because Iknow you know what I mean?
You embody it.
And then I'm honestly, we had such a good timewhen we all spent that time together.
Right?
Again, we're East to West Coast to give peoplea context, and I might see Brandy maybe once a
year or the other colleagues, but it just it'salmost like it it takes off years.
(14:17):
This is what it did for me.
For my East Coast colleagues that I don't seeor West Coast colleagues, it took off years of
me not knowing them because all of a sudden, wewere put into such silly kind of, I'll do
anything because I'm playing.
Yep.
And and then I'm like, oh my goodness.
I know Tyler that much more or Sabrina thatmuch more.
And and then I and and I may only see thatperson once a year.
(14:38):
So I love I love that, whatever that happens.
Because as adults, it's almost like we getstuck in these little boxes, and we're stressed
and, you know, we got deadlines and, you know,metrics and boards and all that stuff.
Yeah.
And, you know, it's it's tough to get backthere and for a lot of people.
And then, like you said, people get arestressed in getting fight or flight, and
(15:02):
they're getting sick and all that stuff.
Yeah.
And and to the one thing that I always say topeople is play is very different for every
single person because we kind of I mean, Tyleris masterful.
Let me throw that in.
Tyler is masterful.
I know.
I can't get a ball.
I need to call him at a better time.
Shout out for Tyler.
(15:22):
No.
I can't.
He is masterful.
Together.
Place.
That's just And for some people, that play is,like for me, that's just jump in full, you
know, partially don't even remember whathappened.
It was just so good.
Right?
Yeah.
But for some people, that actually ignitesfear.
Right?
You have to play in that space Mhmm.
(15:43):
Where everyone can find that.
And what that's the key is that is recognizingthat everyone's play is different.
So I'm gonna give you an example, and that isthat one of the things that is part of my
strategy is to help people understand what thatactually even feels like in them.
Mhmm.
So here's the first thing.
I ask this question.
(16:05):
When was the last time you did something sogood that you lost track of time?
So I ask that, and I can tell you that 70% ofmy audiences cannot remember the last time they
did something so good that they lost track oftime.
(16:28):
Wow.
We are overworked and underplayed in our lives,and it's actually affecting our mental health
and our physical health.
Yeah.
So if I can help people start to notice thosemoments and have some during the training,
which we do, and have them play in a way thatfeels safe and connected and and all those
(16:53):
pieces.
So I'll I'll give you an example.
I'll give you an example.
So in one of my sessions, we do an activitywhere everyone puts a piece of paper behind
their back, and they attempt to make a treebehind their back.
It is right?
There is nothing there's nothing scary orfrightening about it.
We just all try to make a tree, and then webring it out.
Well, in that single activity that takes aboutone minute, people say, I was so busy thinking
(17:19):
about the tree and trying to make it behind myback, and I was laughing at other people.
And I looked over, and I saw them having somuch fun.
And then when we brought the trees out, we wereall laughing about who did what.
In that moment, I can actually show them thephysiology of what happens.
Right?
What happens when we take that one minute whenwe're in play?
(17:41):
Yeah.
When our brain and our body actually are like,all I care about right now is the laughter
that's happening, the three stories about thetree that someone told me after.
It's so lasting.
So if we can bring people into that, we canhave really tough conversations there.
Right?
We can actually once we've played, once ourbody kinda gets grounded and we're back in that
(18:05):
zone where, like, we're curious and open and,you know, we're actually listening to other
people because that's what play does.
Right?
It puts us in that space where, I listenbetter.
I can actually hear myself better.
I'm more authentic.
All those things happen when we're in play.
So if I can create that scenario, which is whatI do, then we're having really honest,
(18:28):
authentic conversations that last a long timeafter you spend a day with me or an afternoon
with me.
Yes.
And that's what play does.
It's it actually changes the way we seeourselves and others.
It's it's it's not magic.
It's science.
But
And it's sometimes so simple too.
Right?
You think of, you know, trying to do somethingand being so bad at it, and you're killing
(18:49):
yourself because you think, oh my god.
I suck at this.
Right?
Because we're always trying to be so competentas adults.
Like, even outside of the workplace, we'retrying to be the thing, look like the certain
thing, dress a certain way.
We're always adulting, really, to some degreethat we miss that part.
And, you know, if you look at your when yourchildren are small, I I see your grandchildren
(19:09):
online.
Like, they just bring something out of evenbeing around them.
It's I find, like, that it's by osmosis, andthey're silly, and you're silly, and we but
people do get more disconnected as they go, andthen that kind of plays out.
And then when you have conflict or when youhave change, I think about what where we're at,
the space we're at with what's happeningglobally with our our our the realities of what
(19:33):
some companies are gonna be going through.
That's gonna that's gonna heighten the stress,and then people are gonna get more anxious.
And when they get more anxious, they're gonnabuckle down and probably do the opposite, which
is play as being completely present.
Right?
Ultimately, that's what play is.
Yeah.
Well, as we see all of these things compounded,which we do.
(19:54):
Right?
We're seeing all of those things compounded.
If you're the leadership of an organization andyou really you know, your work is to make sure
that people, you know, stay capable andconnected and, you know, doing the work and
enjoying and and all of those things, you'rethat's your work, then I would say you have to
(20:17):
know and help them find play because that's thething that's gonna combat all of the overwhelm
that comes out of what's happening.
Mhmm.
Right?
And people will think that's the oppositeanswer to all of it.
Right?
Let's get more serious.
Hurdles.
Let's let's buckle down
versus buckle down, get more serious.
(20:38):
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But when we do that, we actually throw ournervous system into that fight or flight all
the time.
So we're constantly there.
So if our job is, oh my gosh.
We're gonna have to make major changes in thisorganization.
You want people to be, right, grounded and openand curious, not scared all the time.
And so that's actually that's the change thatneeds to happen is that if we buckle down and
(21:03):
get really serious and super focused, weactually take out all the opportunity for
thinking in a different way and being able tolisten to others.
We actually shut out other people.
We create silos, and we over perform.
All of those things are a result of that.
And in play, if we can get people just tounderstand what it feels like, because that's
(21:25):
actually the first thing.
Right?
What does it actually feel like when I'm inplay?
And if 70% of the people that I work with can'teven imagine more than last time they felt like
that, we really need people need help to findthat place.
And that's that's a lot of my work.
And it's simple things.
Like, when you say it's simple things, itreally is.
(21:47):
There is people who don't realize that theirplay is when the office supplies come in, and
they can't wait to unbox the office supply.
That actually makes them feel giddy inside.
Right?
They're unboxing it, and they're like, oh, allthe markers haven't been touched and the you
know, all the pads of paper.
That's their play, but nobody told them it wasplay or joy.
(22:09):
Yeah.
But those are the moments that we need peopleto notice.
Yeah.
Right?
We need people to notice that so that on thedays when when we can't find any of it, do we
know where we can find some of it?
And the laughter.
Right?
The I think the when I I mean, I'm sure most ofus, when I laugh, I cry.
Yeah.
(22:29):
When I get to the point that I'm laughing sohard and I I often joke around and I say, I
have to remember this moment because I'mlaughing so I I'm crying and I can't stop.
Right?
And then you're like, oh my goodness.
I need to bring that back to me with me toremember that drop down, that anchoring of that
moment in time because it's you could tell.
(22:50):
Like, every happy hormone in my body is goingfreaking out.
And I'm just thinking about it in reference towhen there's conflict or change.
Right?
If you think of change and the flux and theambiguity, if you can bring a little bit of
that, we're just, I would say, kind of humanbeings to each other too as well.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so in play, I can put people in situationswhere they're not gonna agree with each other
(23:17):
and all of you know, that they have conflict.
I and I can set up the place so that it lookslike that.
But when it's play, we actually see wherepeople's natural resources are.
Like, we actually
see You pull you pull that out from the play.
So if you're working with a team.
Right?
And Yeah.
You're thinking, oh, there's no way, and you'rejust naturally kinda seeing what they bring
(23:37):
with them.
And then from that, I guess you could pull thatout with a strategic plan.
You could probably build
That's exactly.
Change.
You could probably you know, if you have triedto be innovative with maybe a new business
product, all those different things.
Right?
What play because, like, you're right.
If you think about innovation is getting out ofyour normal kind of modus operandi of doing
(23:59):
something in a standard way, play is theopposite of that because you do things when
you're playing and you think, oh my god.
I can't believe I just did that.
You know?
Yeah.
And to be honest, I've had COOs who werelooking at, like, what are we going to do today
to the point where we're we're in play, andthey're finding out, oh my goodness.
(24:20):
I didn't even realize I love that part.
So we can be building paper airplanes, right,and be in a paper airplane playing contest, for
example.
And what we find out is that if you didn't knowhow to make the plane, there's three people
that did.
And if, you know, that you actually haveresources in people that you didn't know were
there.
(24:40):
But if I do it in an activity where we are it'sit's stress free.
It's safe.
Right?
It's a safe place.
Then, actually, the person who loves buildingand collecting and all of a sudden, you know,
finds out, oh, that actually is one of my keyassets, but it doesn't come out when the stress
is on.
(25:00):
Right?
So I'm I'm actually have huge resources thataren't there when the stress is there.
So I can take that from the play, and now wecan take it and actually look at what's
actually going on in an organization, which ishard to do when we're under pressure and things
are tight and Absolutely.
Because it's wanna control an outcome.
(25:21):
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because it's the opposite of psychologicalsafety.
What you're saying is that and what I'm hearingyou say is it's transparency, it's trust, it's
Roxanne's perspective is going to be validatedas much as Brandy's and, you know, as Brandy's
colorful and Roxanne's kind of black and whiteor whatever.
Because, really, when I think of teams that Iwork with and organizations with leaders, the
(25:45):
the people wanna just be able to be free enoughto share perspective.
Right?
No silly no no opinion is silly enough.
You can you put it out there, but you you couldsee what when there's a lack of trust, and I'm
sure you see it a lot with when you do play.
Time.
And then what people associate with playbecause that must bring up things from people's
past too, I would think.
(26:05):
And being able to try to make them safe enoughto realize maybe that's maybe you could learn
to play the way you naturally should be playingkind of thing.
So I'm sure it brings up a lot of differentthings.
It does.
And play as a word, it's funny.
We probably have all done this, but we have aword.
(26:25):
There's so many in our vocabulary that igniteall sorts of different feelings of joy and and
fear.
Like, they can be everything from joy to fear.
And one of the things about play is being ableto give people permission for it to not look
like or seem like their lived experience withit or where they've been with it, but how they
(26:49):
are with it in the present.
And last year, I had the absolute honor ofworking with an organization in Winnipeg called
Plan Mothers Healing Village with women andtrans individuals who are experiencing sexual
abuse and sexual trauma.
So their stories of play are not positive.
And yet what we did was help them rewrite thatstory for themselves.
(27:11):
Right?
We're
so good.
Gonna be hitting up against some and then Ithink what I think of as a psychotherapist is
that you're gonna get, people's perception ofwhat they were allowed to do versus Mhmm.
But when you are able to kinda create thatplace of safety so they can step into it, like,
what a a deeply healing space to have.
(27:32):
Right?
Because, really, I I often say if you look atlittle ones and you look at them and they're so
raw.
Right?
And you're like, what are you talking whoyou're playing with?
What?
I don't know their name.
Oh, there's just several?
Who are they?
Where are they?
I can't tell because then you can't be part ofit.
And then you get into that world.
Right?
So I can see how with trauma, and that's one ofthe specialties I had when I practiced.
(27:55):
Brandy, it's it's I could see how Yeah.
How powerful that could be.
Very powerful.
Yeah.
It really is.
And I I think one of the things you and youtouched on it is that when we're not feeling
joy, like, we kinda just feel numbness all thetime, which as adults, we can get really good
at.
Obviously, you know that.
(28:16):
Is that the kind of the opposite to play isthat we set up what I call show homes.
Right?
Like, we set up these kinda show home facades.
So
we find Yeah.
Like, I'm supposed to be a I'm supposed to acta certain way.
I'm supposed to
be a certain way.
I'm supposed to dress a certain way.
I'm supposed to everything's supposed
to be.
And then we're just I think we've become adeptat it.
(28:37):
Right?
We've become very adept at it.
I know from personal experience, and I sharethis when I speak, is that as a college
professor, I was very, very good at producing ashow home.
I was fun instructor, fun mom.
I had my name on the door traveling the world.
I was doing all of those things.
And if you looked at it, it was a show home.
It was beautiful.
(28:57):
Right?
But on the other side, right, I was running acomplete fixer upper.
I was living with depression and anxiety Wow.
And trying to keep up all this beautiful showhome all the time.
And, eventually, I'd almost I'd almost lose mycareer.
I would almost lose my family.
Right?
So I know what the effect of not being in playlooks like.
(29:20):
I've lived through that.
And I know what it feels like to try to producea show home every day.
Right?
To try and be the strongest person in the roomand make sure everyone's okay and be the leader
and be at the front of the room and say,everything's gonna be okay while you're
struggling.
Because I think that's the essence of play forme Mhmm.
(29:42):
Is that when we're always producing that showhome, we can't play.
We're not authentic.
Yeah.
Then when you're the lead when you're theleader,
you're yeah.
Well, when you're the leader, Randy, to yourpoint, you that show home is on most of the
time.
So learning how you can play potentially maybenot in the work environment, but make sure that
you have it built into different parts of yourlife so that you could get whatever it is that
(30:06):
invigorates you to be able to come and be ableto go into that environment and be the best
versions of yourself.
I talk about it with the ROR that I talk about,which is return on relationship.
And I didn't ever talk about play in my book,but I feel like I've missed something there
because I talk about connection, communication,all that stuff.
But it's so important as when you're leading,you're still a person.
(30:28):
You're still a person that has all thesefacets, and you people are constantly looking
up to you for guidance.
And if you don't have behind the house kindafigured out to your point, you know Yep.
That show that showhouse is gonna showplace isgonna kinda crash at some point.
So the importance of play even with thoseleaders become important.
(30:49):
Now that's where I was gonna go next, and Iknow we're almost out of time.
But what how do you let's say you get broughtin and you're like, oh, it's them.
It's not us.
It's the leadership.
And it's once you just fix them, Brandy, it'sgonna be all good.
Right?
If if there's a disparity between the leaderleader leadership team seeing the value about
(31:14):
them being in play so that they can in turn I'mgonna say receive what the frontline needs from
them.
If there's disparity, how do you work with themto try to build that bridge, I'm gonna say?
Well, one of the first things actually, one ofthe programs I run or one of the keynotes I do
is called leaders play first, which is actuallyreally the fundamental pieces that if we are
(31:36):
gonna ask employees to show up, be present, beloyal, be innovative, be all of those things,
then they also need to see you be in play.
Right?
So I often people often ask me, if it's a humanresources company or an org part of the
organization, should human resources be in theroom?
(31:58):
That's I often get that.
Should HR be in the room when the employees aretaking are playing?
Right?
There's pieces to all of that.
When the people that you're working with, theyou play, it's number one, it's vulnerable, but
it also sets up this whole piece of trust.
Right?
There's a huge trust that happens when we cando that together.
(32:21):
And so when there is a, yeah, us and them thatkind of tell them to do that and we'll do
something different, that's actually one of thegreat dividers of play is I expect you to do it
over here because it's good for our retentionand Right.
Right.
And resilience and all the things.
Right?
And so you go do it over here.
I don't really even understand what happens,but if it's good for us, then great.
(32:43):
The greatest thing that can happen is whenleadership says, let's try and do this
together.
And I know that's hard because it's hard formultiple reasons.
But when leaders and groups play together,right, when managers and their teams play
together, it is it will change the full dynamicof what you do together.
(33:06):
Yeah.
Because it would I think it would destratifythat that innate kind of, you know, perception
of one level versus another because if somebodyis just rolling around like we were at that
time, crawling Yeah.
All the things we were, then you forget who itis.
Really, you do forget who it is.
And then you're like, that you're not so goodat that or you're silly or I'm silly or I'm
(33:29):
killing myself, so I'm looking at you.
It does bring that that good energy.
Right?
Like, that space.
So that's that that would be the blue, I wouldthink.
Right?
Versus Yeah.
You know, the autocratic top down kind of levelthat Yeah.
Right?
And you have to have that level to run certainthings in the org.
Absolutely.
But then you can go back and and see each otherthrough a different lens that allows you to
(33:52):
just kinda do your best thing because we allkinda wanna do our I think most people most of
us wanna do the best version of what we need todo for eight to ten hours if we're in the
company and then go home.
But if we're if I'm kinda disjointed andstressed and all that stuff and not trusting,
then I'm not I'm gonna show up, do my thing,give you a twenty I've heard this line.
(34:12):
Twenty minutes at a time.
Right?
Like, when I'm so Yep.
Burnt out versus, oh, I'm just gonna I wanna beremembered for doing the best job I could kind
of thing.
And it really does narrow those margins becausewhat happens is that leaders and managers look
at the people they work with and for, and allof a sudden, they start to understand, oh,
(34:34):
like, when we do this work together, that's whypeople invest.
That's why people love that part.
But they haven't been able to see that until wewere in play and someone said, you know what?
When that type of file comes across my desk,that is the best thing.
Like, you could send me that all day.
It's my favorite thing.
And if leadership never knows that or managersnever know that, then they don't know that on
(34:57):
the days when things are hard and difficult,hey.
There is something that actually gives themgreat joy, and it's almost none of what I'm
talking about costs a single dime.
Right?
It's a nonstop
like a secret sauce that you can pull outRight.
And, get people back into that, like, state,really.
Mhmm.
That state.
(35:18):
Right?
Which is, I feel good kind of thing.
Yeah.
Yep.
But, Brandy, this is well, I wanna go out andplay now.
I'm gonna find something to do.
I have to it's always a pleasure to talk about,like, and be in play with you, I can tell you.
And I look forward to the next time we'll allbe together to be able to to to play again.
So, Brandy, for any last words or any tips forany people out there that are listening and
(35:43):
they go, that's not about me.
Any couple of little tips you wanna leavebehind for people or a thought?
Well, there there's two things.
You don't have
to change anything.
Play doesn't require you to change anythingthat you have or do right now.
Like, it's not an add to your to do list.
It's not schedule it for fifteen minutes inyour schedule.
(36:05):
It's actually already inside you biologically.
So we just have to go back in and help you findit.
Yeah.
And that's everybody.
And and the other thing is to really take alook at at noticing at noticing the moments
when you feel playful or grounded or safe andwhat that feels like.
(36:26):
Because if we go back to that's actually we allneed that right now.
We need that space.
I I more than ever, why more than ever morethan ever than ever.
More than ever.
More than ever.
I think, yeah, we have to try to reconnect towhat's who, what, when, and why.
And if play brings that out of us and helps usto focus in on that, I would suggest that
everybody go out that's listening and try to dosomething fun that maybe you used to do that
(36:51):
maybe you got away from in in the next littlewhile.
So, Brandy, for everybody listening that wouldlike to reach out and connect, where can they
get ahold
of you?
The best way to get ahold of me is probablythrough my website, which is
www.BrandyHeather.com.
But they can also reach out to me by email, andall of those things are connected to my
(37:12):
website.
So please do that.
Ask questions.
Be curious.
I'm always happy to jump on a conversation andtalk about how it could be amazing for your
organization and for you personally too.
So
Awesome.
Well, Brandy, this has been a pleasure foreveryone.
Thanks for hanging out with us again this week.
What am I taking away?
That when I think of ROR, I'm gonna ask leadershow did they play maybe in the last quarter to
(37:38):
see what I could pull out of them when I'mtalking to them about connection.
And for anybody that wants to know a little bitknow more about how they connect in their
relationships either at home or work, just goto roxanderhodge.com/quiz.
Fill out a little quiz, and we'll send you backsome results and, next steps.
Again, Brandy, thanks so much for your time.
(37:58):
Everyone else, thanks for hanging out with meagain, and we'll chat with you soon.
Take care.
Thanks.
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive,
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach.
To work with Roxanne, visitroxannederhage.com/blueprint.
(38:23):
We'll see you next time on Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, aplace where we have conscious conversations
about things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
(00:40):
Hi, everyone.
It's Roxanne Derr Hodge.
Thanks for tuning in again today.
Today, I have a colleague, Brandy Heather.
And, Brandy is a a professional speaker, andshe's, been doing this kind of work for a long
time.
And we'll let her get jump into that, but shegets the fun things.
Right?
And she's the fun version.
So I I gotta tell you the story, which was fun.
(01:04):
At our professional association, we had our itwas our annual meeting in Quebec, and I was
unfortunately paired against Brandy on anotherteam.
And all I can say to you is she knows how toplay and win at all odds because I think I
might have caught her cheating, but not thatshe admitted to it, but that was my first real
(01:27):
interaction with Brandy.
And it was hilarious, by the way, I should tellyou, because I I did when I looked over and I
looked at her again, she goes, what are youlooking at?
I remember you said.
I said, are you Cheech?
She goes, absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
So she, Brandy, works predominantly with playand innovation and creativity and how that
impacts us in our lives.
(01:48):
And, you know, what I was drawn back to waswhen being exposed to you and our other
colleague there was when we were playing atthat event, how much nothing else mattered
other than being in the moment.
And I hope today that with our conversation,that Brandy will be able to kind of share some
of her wonderful insight into something thatnaturally as children we do and then how we
(02:12):
kind of are taught by society to grow out of itand then how it's so important to reimplement
it at some point.
So, Rene, welcome welcome, to the show.
Thank you.
It's time to be here.
Yeah.
So what what else would you like people to knowabout your background that you think might be
helpful for this discussion that we're gonnahave today?
(02:33):
Sure.
People often ask me, like, why play?
Like, where does where does play come from?
And I get I have lots of answers for that.
For me, what I found was I taught as auniversity, as a college professor for twenty
years, and I taught in a world of inclusion anddisability inclusion and accessibility.
(02:54):
And what I knew for sure was in order to thinkcreatively, in order to think about solutions
that maybe weren't there or could be there,that people really had to have this open sense
of possibility and potential in in everyenvironment they could see.
And when I could hear it and see it and peoplethat really loved what they were doing, and you
(03:17):
could see that even though there was greatchallenge, there was also great joy.
And for a long time, I wasn't sure exactly whatthat was.
And then someone said to me one day, you knowwhat?
We really love being in your classes.
And, you know, I said, like, what is that?
Because it it is something.
And they said, I think it's play.
(03:37):
I think it's that when you're doing what you'redoing, you look like you're in play and you
make us feel like we're in play.
And that actually was part of the key to itthat I I didn't know if I could put my finger
on for a long time.
I could see it in other people.
I I worked with kids for a long time, so Icould always see the joy in them and, you know,
(03:58):
what that did for them.
But I didn't really put my finger on it for along time and then realized, oh, it is play.
And I should dig into what how that helps us tobe successful.
And as a big player as a kid, I I love to beoutside.
I grew up in a family with a father who's anartist, so I was very surrounded by it.
So the why play for me comes from I've seen it.
(04:20):
I've seen what it does to change people'snervous system and how they feel about
themselves and what they how they connect withothers.
So I've really seen it for a long time.
So yeah.
But it's funny that you talk about nervoussystem.
Right?
Because it's through a lots of events that I'vebeen involved with where there's been team
building and and, you know, I've run teams overmy career, and it's quite fascinating how many
(04:42):
things come up through play as well.
So I have this one.
I ran a unit at a hospital, Brandy, and we'redoing I think it was like a trust access.
It would but it was a fun and you could see howpeople got guarded.
Right?
Because I don't know if it's me growing up in afamily of six, and I was just like, oh, yeah.
I'm all out.
And the person could kinda hold me.
And the one I remember one of my teammatessaid, how come you weren't scared?
(05:04):
And I said, because, like, I'm around you guys,and I can close my eyes and I can but, clearly,
there was within that environment, Brandy, youcould see the people that struggled with, I
can't trust, so I can't do this exercise, or Ican't do this.
And they couldn't just get into it because theythey were bringing so many different things.
(05:26):
So in play then, you know, when you're workingwith a team so maybe you tell us kinda how you
work through things because I was thinking ofthose particular individuals, and I knew that
there was some issues going on, but it itheightened, when they went into, you know, this
event.
And I wonder how play might have how how youuse play and what you do when things like that
(05:50):
come up.
Yeah.
Well, one thing that we know for sure is thatwe can't play, when we are scared.
We can't play where there is fear.
And so for me, it's always to walk into play ina trustworthy way.
So many people, when we think about play, theyactually do have a very heightened response.
(06:14):
It's a it can be very much pushback on whatwhat play looks like and what they think of it,
especially in business settings andsurroundings.
And so when we talk about play, I actuallyaddress that right up front.
And that is that for many people, the word playactually ignites their nervous system to think
(06:35):
this is silly and unproductive, and so I'm notlistening.
And so if we start there and we turn off ourbrains to learning and what's possible, then
that doesn't lead into a session where we canlearn very much.
So I actually walk into play very carefully.
I walk into it in a way that people in the roomfeel safe, that people don't in any way feel
(06:58):
silly in what they do.
Because, again, if I want people to understandthe effect that it can have, then I have to
create an environment where they feel like theycan be, you know, in they can be resourceful.
Right?
That they can be themselves.
And so working in play is partly a game oftrust.
(07:21):
And so walking into a situation where peopleknowing that people may push back on that and
also being able to see it in their bodylanguage and all of those pieces.
So I'm very astute at being able to read aroom.
And so when we walk into play, we don't talkfirst about play or get into play right away.
We do things that actually just ignitecuriosity and yeah.
(07:47):
Again, it it needs to be safe or it can't beplay.
Like, we can't
But I would think that.
Right?
It's like a litmus test.
It's like a litmus test, I would think.
Because I'm just thinking, you know, of some ofthe environments I've worked in, there where
there was a little bit unresolved things ormaybe there's nepotism between different levels
of the organization.
And then if you're coming in blind, obviously,you might be walking into, you know, a hornet's
(08:11):
nest potentially because all that stuff's gonnaplay out like it's like street theater, I would
say.
It's gonna be Absolutely.
People picking each other and all that stuff.
So when, you get a request, let's say, so yourrequest can come in what ways?
Because I I think it I I think of the fun partof you not telling the truth and winning,
(08:31):
against my team on when before I go back.
But that's another thing aside.
But so is it that there's some kind ofproductivity issue?
Is there that there's conflict?
Is it that we've got new teammates and we wannaintegrate it?
What what in what ways might you be called in?
Because I'm just thinking for leaders that arelistening, that are thinking, how do I fit this
(08:54):
in?
One of the things that that I get called onmany times is organizations where leadership is
feeling like things are stagnant or they're notmoving, that there's maybe a an issue in
processing or organizational resilience.
Like, they're just feeling like their team isjust needs something.
(09:15):
I often get that kind of blank opening.
Like, our team just needs something.
Right.
And we need we're not connecting.
We're not collaborating, and we're not surewhat that is.
And so a lot of what I do is go in and justgive a totally different lens and perspective
on the people in the room.
So for an example, I just worked with theleadership team a couple weeks ago that brought
(09:40):
me in, and we were just working on the factthat some people were not working in a space in
which they felt confident and capable.
And we found that out when we were just playingwith working on doing some building activities,
when we're working on collaborating.
We found out, oh, actually, there's a lot ofpeople who are not in alignment with the things
(10:01):
that they're really good at.
So the things that they're really good at arebeing suppressed, and the things that make them
feel like they would take risks and talk toother people and collaborate with other people,
those are actually not happening in their work.
And so the work that I do actually helps themrecognize it first in themselves.
Wow.
There are things that that I love about what Ido, and there are things that are totally out
(10:23):
of alignment for my skills.
And so by the end of the day, people reallycome back to this, k.
Maybe people aren't we aren't asking people theright things to do, but, also, I show them the
effect that stress and overwhelm and not beingin alignment with what you're really good at,
(10:43):
what the effect of that is on people's bodies.
Right?
Like, when our nervous system is is on fight orflight all the time, we we may work for an
organization that has massive challenges withsolution finding and problem solving and and
needs that kind of integrative seamlessdiscussions happening.
And when it's not happening, oftentimes, it'sbecause people's nervous systems are so out of
(11:08):
alignment.
And when I can move them to a playful spacewhere they're kind of what we talked about when
you said at the beginning, when people arekinda they're lost in the moment, when we can
get into that space, then I can really moveteams into noticing because that's the key.
The key is noticing that when people are notplaying or excited and when they're not really
(11:36):
using all of their skills, which then makes itvery difficult to run a a high performance
unit.
So
And I guess when I listen to you, right,because, like, I know when I play, like, I'm
giddy and, you know, it's kinda like you'refloating back in time.
I remember my I'll give you an example.
Like, I'd I grew up in a family of six, and, ofcourse, we I grew up in Trinidad, Brandy, so
(11:58):
there was no snow, no thought of snow.
Now I understand why.
But, anyway, we had these terrazzo floors, andDonnie and Marie was the thing.
Right?
So I'm dating myself that back then.
Yeah.
So we would put baby powder like we wereskating.
Remember?
They used to be on skates and all.
You know, you set your think up now that youthought, oh, wow.
(12:21):
I did that as a kid.
What I think happens though is our society, assoon as kids get to a certain age, and I want
you to speak to this, you being the expert inthis, we start to talk people out of play
inadvertently.
Like, I mean, oh, aren't you too old to do bedoing that or why do you believe you know,
(12:45):
like, I was out with my friend's, grandson andhe he believes he's Spider Man.
He goes, Roxy, when I put this over my head,I'll become Spider Man and beware.
And I and he was like and I'm like, the beautyof the mind of imagination and stuff like that.
But that being said, in our systems, differentsystems, we start to kinda almost pull that
(13:08):
away.
Right?
And Oh, absolutely.
How do you by the time you're seeing teams,people have been practicing not having fun.
For a long time.
For a long time.
Right?
Then they're
probably like, what is the other woman gonnatell me what to do?
And I'm gonna have fun and, you know, you know,at work, doesn't she know it's serious?
(13:29):
Do you you must run up against that at work.
All the time.
And the the piece about children actually, thesaddest piece of all of this is that children
younger and younger and younger are starting tounderstand that play is not part of the real
world.
Right?
That the playing isn't going to get youanywhere.
(13:51):
And I I mean, I could talk for hours about how
you could change it.
Like, and I I and I know you could because Iknow you know what I mean?
You embody it.
And then I'm honestly, we had such a good timewhen we all spent that time together.
Right?
Again, we're East to West Coast to give peoplea context, and I might see Brandy maybe once a
year or the other colleagues, but it just it'salmost like it it takes off years.
(14:17):
This is what it did for me.
For my East Coast colleagues that I don't seeor West Coast colleagues, it took off years of
me not knowing them because all of a sudden, wewere put into such silly kind of, I'll do
anything because I'm playing.
Yep.
And and then I'm like, oh my goodness.
I know Tyler that much more or Sabrina thatmuch more.
And and then I and and I may only see thatperson once a year.
(14:38):
So I love I love that, whatever that happens.
Because as adults, it's almost like we getstuck in these little boxes, and we're stressed
and, you know, we got deadlines and, you know,metrics and boards and all that stuff.
Yeah.
And, you know, it's it's tough to get backthere and for a lot of people.
And then, like you said, people get arestressed in getting fight or flight, and
(15:02):
they're getting sick and all that stuff.
Yeah.
And and to the one thing that I always say topeople is play is very different for every
single person because we kind of I mean, Tyleris masterful.
Let me throw that in.
Tyler is masterful.
I know.
I can't get a ball.
I need to call him at a better time.
Shout out for Tyler.
(15:22):
No.
I can't.
He is masterful.
Together.
Place.
That's just And for some people, that play is,like for me, that's just jump in full, you
know, partially don't even remember whathappened.
It was just so good.
Right?
Yeah.
But for some people, that actually ignitesfear.
Right?
You have to play in that space Mhmm.
(15:43):
Where everyone can find that.
And what that's the key is that is recognizingthat everyone's play is different.
So I'm gonna give you an example, and that isthat one of the things that is part of my
strategy is to help people understand what thatactually even feels like in them.
Mhmm.
So here's the first thing.
I ask this question.
(16:05):
When was the last time you did something sogood that you lost track of time?
So I ask that, and I can tell you that 70% ofmy audiences cannot remember the last time they
did something so good that they lost track oftime.
(16:28):
Wow.
We are overworked and underplayed in our lives,and it's actually affecting our mental health
and our physical health.
Yeah.
So if I can help people start to notice thosemoments and have some during the training,
which we do, and have them play in a way thatfeels safe and connected and and all those
(16:53):
pieces.
So I'll I'll give you an example.
I'll give you an example.
So in one of my sessions, we do an activitywhere everyone puts a piece of paper behind
their back, and they attempt to make a treebehind their back.
It is right?
There is nothing there's nothing scary orfrightening about it.
We just all try to make a tree, and then webring it out.
Well, in that single activity that takes aboutone minute, people say, I was so busy thinking
(17:19):
about the tree and trying to make it behind myback, and I was laughing at other people.
And I looked over, and I saw them having somuch fun.
And then when we brought the trees out, we wereall laughing about who did what.
In that moment, I can actually show them thephysiology of what happens.
Right?
What happens when we take that one minute whenwe're in play?
(17:41):
Yeah.
When our brain and our body actually are like,all I care about right now is the laughter
that's happening, the three stories about thetree that someone told me after.
It's so lasting.
So if we can bring people into that, we canhave really tough conversations there.
Right?
We can actually once we've played, once ourbody kinda gets grounded and we're back in that
(18:05):
zone where, like, we're curious and open and,you know, we're actually listening to other
people because that's what play does.
Right?
It puts us in that space where, I listenbetter.
I can actually hear myself better.
I'm more authentic.
All those things happen when we're in play.
So if I can create that scenario, which is whatI do, then we're having really honest,
(18:28):
authentic conversations that last a long timeafter you spend a day with me or an afternoon
with me.
Yes.
And that's what play does.
It's it actually changes the way we seeourselves and others.
It's it's it's not magic.
It's science.
But
And it's sometimes so simple too.
Right?
You think of, you know, trying to do somethingand being so bad at it, and you're killing
(18:49):
yourself because you think, oh my god.
I suck at this.
Right?
Because we're always trying to be so competentas adults.
Like, even outside of the workplace, we'retrying to be the thing, look like the certain
thing, dress a certain way.
We're always adulting, really, to some degreethat we miss that part.
And, you know, if you look at your when yourchildren are small, I I see your grandchildren
(19:09):
online.
Like, they just bring something out of evenbeing around them.
It's I find, like, that it's by osmosis, andthey're silly, and you're silly, and we but
people do get more disconnected as they go, andthen that kind of plays out.
And then when you have conflict or when youhave change, I think about what where we're at,
the space we're at with what's happeningglobally with our our our the realities of what
(19:33):
some companies are gonna be going through.
That's gonna that's gonna heighten the stress,and then people are gonna get more anxious.
And when they get more anxious, they're gonnabuckle down and probably do the opposite, which
is play as being completely present.
Right?
Ultimately, that's what play is.
Yeah.
Well, as we see all of these things compounded,which we do.
(19:54):
Right?
We're seeing all of those things compounded.
If you're the leadership of an organization andyou really you know, your work is to make sure
that people, you know, stay capable andconnected and, you know, doing the work and
enjoying and and all of those things, you'rethat's your work, then I would say you have to
(20:17):
know and help them find play because that's thething that's gonna combat all of the overwhelm
that comes out of what's happening.
Mhmm.
Right?
And people will think that's the oppositeanswer to all of it.
Right?
Let's get more serious.
Hurdles.
Let's let's buckle down
versus buckle down, get more serious.
(20:38):
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But when we do that, we actually throw ournervous system into that fight or flight all
the time.
So we're constantly there.
So if our job is, oh my gosh.
We're gonna have to make major changes in thisorganization.
You want people to be, right, grounded and openand curious, not scared all the time.
And so that's actually that's the change thatneeds to happen is that if we buckle down and
(21:03):
get really serious and super focused, weactually take out all the opportunity for
thinking in a different way and being able tolisten to others.
We actually shut out other people.
We create silos, and we over perform.
All of those things are a result of that.
And in play, if we can get people just tounderstand what it feels like, because that's
(21:25):
actually the first thing.
Right?
What does it actually feel like when I'm inplay?
And if 70% of the people that I work with can'teven imagine more than last time they felt like
that, we really need people need help to findthat place.
And that's that's a lot of my work.
And it's simple things.
Like, when you say it's simple things, itreally is.
(21:47):
There is people who don't realize that theirplay is when the office supplies come in, and
they can't wait to unbox the office supply.
That actually makes them feel giddy inside.
Right?
They're unboxing it, and they're like, oh, allthe markers haven't been touched and the you
know, all the pads of paper.
That's their play, but nobody told them it wasplay or joy.
(22:09):
Yeah.
But those are the moments that we need peopleto notice.
Yeah.
Right?
We need people to notice that so that on thedays when when we can't find any of it, do we
know where we can find some of it?
And the laughter.
Right?
The I think the when I I mean, I'm sure most ofus, when I laugh, I cry.
Yeah.
(22:29):
When I get to the point that I'm laughing sohard and I I often joke around and I say, I
have to remember this moment because I'mlaughing so I I'm crying and I can't stop.
Right?
And then you're like, oh my goodness.
I need to bring that back to me with me toremember that drop down, that anchoring of that
moment in time because it's you could tell.
(22:50):
Like, every happy hormone in my body is goingfreaking out.
And I'm just thinking about it in reference towhen there's conflict or change.
Right?
If you think of change and the flux and theambiguity, if you can bring a little bit of
that, we're just, I would say, kind of humanbeings to each other too as well.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so in play, I can put people in situationswhere they're not gonna agree with each other
(23:17):
and all of you know, that they have conflict.
I and I can set up the place so that it lookslike that.
But when it's play, we actually see wherepeople's natural resources are.
Like, we actually
see You pull you pull that out from the play.
So if you're working with a team.
Right?
And Yeah.
You're thinking, oh, there's no way, and you'rejust naturally kinda seeing what they bring
(23:37):
with them.
And then from that, I guess you could pull thatout with a strategic plan.
You could probably build
That's exactly.
Change.
You could probably you know, if you have triedto be innovative with maybe a new business
product, all those different things.
Right?
What play because, like, you're right.
If you think about innovation is getting out ofyour normal kind of modus operandi of doing
(23:59):
something in a standard way, play is theopposite of that because you do things when
you're playing and you think, oh my god.
I can't believe I just did that.
You know?
Yeah.
And to be honest, I've had COOs who werelooking at, like, what are we going to do today
to the point where we're we're in play, andthey're finding out, oh my goodness.
(24:20):
I didn't even realize I love that part.
So we can be building paper airplanes, right,and be in a paper airplane playing contest, for
example.
And what we find out is that if you didn't knowhow to make the plane, there's three people
that did.
And if, you know, that you actually haveresources in people that you didn't know were
there.
(24:40):
But if I do it in an activity where we are it'sit's stress free.
It's safe.
Right?
It's a safe place.
Then, actually, the person who loves buildingand collecting and all of a sudden, you know,
finds out, oh, that actually is one of my keyassets, but it doesn't come out when the stress
is on.
(25:00):
Right?
So I'm I'm actually have huge resources thataren't there when the stress is there.
So I can take that from the play, and now wecan take it and actually look at what's
actually going on in an organization, which ishard to do when we're under pressure and things
are tight and Absolutely.
Because it's wanna control an outcome.
(25:21):
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because it's the opposite of psychologicalsafety.
What you're saying is that and what I'm hearingyou say is it's transparency, it's trust, it's
Roxanne's perspective is going to be validatedas much as Brandy's and, you know, as Brandy's
colorful and Roxanne's kind of black and whiteor whatever.
Because, really, when I think of teams that Iwork with and organizations with leaders, the
(25:45):
the people wanna just be able to be free enoughto share perspective.
Right?
No silly no no opinion is silly enough.
You can you put it out there, but you you couldsee what when there's a lack of trust, and I'm
sure you see it a lot with when you do play.
Time.
And then what people associate with playbecause that must bring up things from people's
past too, I would think.
(26:05):
And being able to try to make them safe enoughto realize maybe that's maybe you could learn
to play the way you naturally should be playingkind of thing.
So I'm sure it brings up a lot of differentthings.
It does.
And play as a word, it's funny.
We probably have all done this, but we have aword.
(26:25):
There's so many in our vocabulary that igniteall sorts of different feelings of joy and and
fear.
Like, they can be everything from joy to fear.
And one of the things about play is being ableto give people permission for it to not look
like or seem like their lived experience withit or where they've been with it, but how they
(26:49):
are with it in the present.
And last year, I had the absolute honor ofworking with an organization in Winnipeg called
Plan Mothers Healing Village with women andtrans individuals who are experiencing sexual
abuse and sexual trauma.
So their stories of play are not positive.
And yet what we did was help them rewrite thatstory for themselves.
(27:11):
Right?
We're
so good.
Gonna be hitting up against some and then Ithink what I think of as a psychotherapist is
that you're gonna get, people's perception ofwhat they were allowed to do versus Mhmm.
But when you are able to kinda create thatplace of safety so they can step into it, like,
what a a deeply healing space to have.
(27:32):
Right?
Because, really, I I often say if you look atlittle ones and you look at them and they're so
raw.
Right?
And you're like, what are you talking whoyou're playing with?
What?
I don't know their name.
Oh, there's just several?
Who are they?
Where are they?
I can't tell because then you can't be part ofit.
And then you get into that world.
Right?
So I can see how with trauma, and that's one ofthe specialties I had when I practiced.
(27:55):
Brandy, it's it's I could see how Yeah.
How powerful that could be.
Very powerful.
Yeah.
It really is.
And I I think one of the things you and youtouched on it is that when we're not feeling
joy, like, we kinda just feel numbness all thetime, which as adults, we can get really good
at.
Obviously, you know that.
(28:16):
Is that the kind of the opposite to play isthat we set up what I call show homes.
Right?
Like, we set up these kinda show home facades.
So
we find Yeah.
Like, I'm supposed to be a I'm supposed to acta certain way.
I'm supposed to
be a certain way.
I'm supposed to dress a certain way.
I'm supposed to everything's supposed
to be.
And then we're just I think we've become adeptat it.
(28:37):
Right?
We've become very adept at it.
I know from personal experience, and I sharethis when I speak, is that as a college
professor, I was very, very good at producing ashow home.
I was fun instructor, fun mom.
I had my name on the door traveling the world.
I was doing all of those things.
And if you looked at it, it was a show home.
It was beautiful.
(28:57):
Right?
But on the other side, right, I was running acomplete fixer upper.
I was living with depression and anxiety Wow.
And trying to keep up all this beautiful showhome all the time.
And, eventually, I'd almost I'd almost lose mycareer.
I would almost lose my family.
Right?
So I know what the effect of not being in playlooks like.
(29:20):
I've lived through that.
And I know what it feels like to try to producea show home every day.
Right?
To try and be the strongest person in the roomand make sure everyone's okay and be the leader
and be at the front of the room and say,everything's gonna be okay while you're
struggling.
Because I think that's the essence of play forme Mhmm.
(29:42):
Is that when we're always producing that showhome, we can't play.
We're not authentic.
Yeah.
Then when you're the lead when you're theleader,
you're yeah.
Well, when you're the leader, Randy, to yourpoint, you that show home is on most of the
time.
So learning how you can play potentially maybenot in the work environment, but make sure that
you have it built into different parts of yourlife so that you could get whatever it is that
(30:06):
invigorates you to be able to come and be ableto go into that environment and be the best
versions of yourself.
I talk about it with the ROR that I talk about,which is return on relationship.
And I didn't ever talk about play in my book,but I feel like I've missed something there
because I talk about connection, communication,all that stuff.
But it's so important as when you're leading,you're still a person.
(30:28):
You're still a person that has all thesefacets, and you people are constantly looking
up to you for guidance.
And if you don't have behind the house kindafigured out to your point, you know Yep.
That show that showhouse is gonna showplace isgonna kinda crash at some point.
So the importance of play even with thoseleaders become important.
(30:49):
Now that's where I was gonna go next, and Iknow we're almost out of time.
But what how do you let's say you get broughtin and you're like, oh, it's them.
It's not us.
It's the leadership.
And it's once you just fix them, Brandy, it'sgonna be all good.
Right?
If if there's a disparity between the leaderleader leadership team seeing the value about
(31:14):
them being in play so that they can in turn I'mgonna say receive what the frontline needs from
them.
If there's disparity, how do you work with themto try to build that bridge, I'm gonna say?
Well, one of the first things actually, one ofthe programs I run or one of the keynotes I do
is called leaders play first, which is actuallyreally the fundamental pieces that if we are
(31:36):
gonna ask employees to show up, be present, beloyal, be innovative, be all of those things,
then they also need to see you be in play.
Right?
So I often people often ask me, if it's a humanresources company or an org part of the
organization, should human resources be in theroom?
(31:58):
That's I often get that.
Should HR be in the room when the employees aretaking are playing?
Right?
There's pieces to all of that.
When the people that you're working with, theyou play, it's number one, it's vulnerable, but
it also sets up this whole piece of trust.
Right?
There's a huge trust that happens when we cando that together.
(32:21):
And so when there is a, yeah, us and them thatkind of tell them to do that and we'll do
something different, that's actually one of thegreat dividers of play is I expect you to do it
over here because it's good for our retentionand Right.
Right.
And resilience and all the things.
Right?
And so you go do it over here.
I don't really even understand what happens,but if it's good for us, then great.
(32:43):
The greatest thing that can happen is whenleadership says, let's try and do this
together.
And I know that's hard because it's hard formultiple reasons.
But when leaders and groups play together,right, when managers and their teams play
together, it is it will change the full dynamicof what you do together.
(33:06):
Yeah.
Because it would I think it would destratifythat that innate kind of, you know, perception
of one level versus another because if somebodyis just rolling around like we were at that
time, crawling Yeah.
All the things we were, then you forget who itis.
Really, you do forget who it is.
And then you're like, that you're not so goodat that or you're silly or I'm silly or I'm
(33:29):
killing myself, so I'm looking at you.
It does bring that that good energy.
Right?
Like, that space.
So that's that that would be the blue, I wouldthink.
Right?
Versus Yeah.
You know, the autocratic top down kind of levelthat Yeah.
Right?
And you have to have that level to run certainthings in the org.
Absolutely.
But then you can go back and and see each otherthrough a different lens that allows you to
(33:52):
just kinda do your best thing because we allkinda wanna do our I think most people most of
us wanna do the best version of what we need todo for eight to ten hours if we're in the
company and then go home.
But if we're if I'm kinda disjointed andstressed and all that stuff and not trusting,
then I'm not I'm gonna show up, do my thing,give you a twenty I've heard this line.
(34:12):
Twenty minutes at a time.
Right?
Like, when I'm so Yep.
Burnt out versus, oh, I'm just gonna I wanna beremembered for doing the best job I could kind
of thing.
And it really does narrow those margins becausewhat happens is that leaders and managers look
at the people they work with and for, and allof a sudden, they start to understand, oh,
(34:34):
like, when we do this work together, that's whypeople invest.
That's why people love that part.
But they haven't been able to see that until wewere in play and someone said, you know what?
When that type of file comes across my desk,that is the best thing.
Like, you could send me that all day.
It's my favorite thing.
And if leadership never knows that or managersnever know that, then they don't know that on
(34:57):
the days when things are hard and difficult,hey.
There is something that actually gives themgreat joy, and it's almost none of what I'm
talking about costs a single dime.
Right?
It's a nonstop
like a secret sauce that you can pull outRight.
And, get people back into that, like, state,really.
Mhmm.
That state.
(35:18):
Right?
Which is, I feel good kind of thing.
Yeah.
Yep.
But, Brandy, this is well, I wanna go out andplay now.
I'm gonna find something to do.
I have to it's always a pleasure to talk about,like, and be in play with you, I can tell you.
And I look forward to the next time we'll allbe together to be able to to to play again.
So, Brandy, for any last words or any tips forany people out there that are listening and
(35:43):
they go, that's not about me.
Any couple of little tips you wanna leavebehind for people or a thought?
Well, there there's two things.
You don't have
to change anything.
Play doesn't require you to change anythingthat you have or do right now.
Like, it's not an add to your to do list.
It's not schedule it for fifteen minutes inyour schedule.
(36:05):
It's actually already inside you biologically.
So we just have to go back in and help you findit.
Yeah.
And that's everybody.
And and the other thing is to really take alook at at noticing at noticing the moments
when you feel playful or grounded or safe andwhat that feels like.
(36:26):
Because if we go back to that's actually we allneed that right now.
We need that space.
I I more than ever, why more than ever morethan ever than ever.
More than ever.
More than ever.
I think, yeah, we have to try to reconnect towhat's who, what, when, and why.
And if play brings that out of us and helps usto focus in on that, I would suggest that
everybody go out that's listening and try to dosomething fun that maybe you used to do that
(36:51):
maybe you got away from in in the next littlewhile.
So, Brandy, for everybody listening that wouldlike to reach out and connect, where can they
get ahold
of you?
The best way to get ahold of me is probablythrough my website, which is
www.BrandyHeather.com.
But they can also reach out to me by email, andall of those things are connected to my
(37:12):
website.
So please do that.
Ask questions.
Be curious.
I'm always happy to jump on a conversation andtalk about how it could be amazing for your
organization and for you personally too.
So
Awesome.
Well, Brandy, this has been a pleasure foreveryone.
Thanks for hanging out with us again this week.
What am I taking away?
That when I think of ROR, I'm gonna ask leadershow did they play maybe in the last quarter to
(37:38):
see what I could pull out of them when I'mtalking to them about connection.
And for anybody that wants to know a little bitknow more about how they connect in their
relationships either at home or work, just goto roxanderhodge.com/quiz.
Fill out a little quiz, and we'll send you backsome results and, next steps.
Again, Brandy, thanks so much for your time.
(37:58):
Everyone else, thanks for hanging out with meagain, and we'll chat with you soon.
Take care.
Thanks.
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive,
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach.
To work with Roxanne, visitroxannederhage.com/blueprint.
(38:23):
We'll see you next time on Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
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