May 8, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode, Roxanne Derhodge explores digital health and the existing gaps in mental health support during Mental Health Week. The discussion addresses the effectiveness and limitations of Employee Assistance Programs (EAPs) and the importance of strategic investment in workplace mental health. Emphasizing the need for continuous support and reallocation of mental health spending, the conversation highlights the shortage of mental health practitioners. AvoorWellBeing's white paper on organizational mental health investment is introduced, and the episode concludes with an announcement of Roxanne's upcoming course, along with final remarks and a sponsor message.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, aplace where we have conscious conversations
about things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
(00:38):
Thanks for tuning in to Authorization.
Hi, This is Ron Santor Hodge.
Thanks for hanging out with us again.
Today, I have a special colleague is
a keynote speaker,
and Barb and I've been and coach for a very
long time.
Barb was a senior leadership atiplich.com/specialhealthstrategy.
And Barbara's been on the podcast Unauthentic.
Believe she was Roxanne.
(00:59):
Once, and then she helped me with my booklaunch two years ago, which was amazing.
So, Barb, welcome back.
Oh, it's a pleasure to be here.
I'm so excited to be in conversation with youagain.
So what we thought we would do is have aconversation because it's Mental Health Week,
starting the week of May 5, and such animportant topic that I think is being talked
(01:22):
about a lot, but I think what we need to do isto really drill down to the experts that are
dealing with it related to the workplace, andBarb is one of them.
Barb is the CEO of Aura Well-being and startedthis company because there were certain
expertise and gaps in services for mentalhealth that needed to be addressed.
And herself and her COO, Michelle Arsenault,started this amazing business.
(01:46):
And it's gone almost it's about two years ago.
A year and a half.
Almost a year and a half from the officiallaunch.
Right.
And I think when we started talking was almostyou were incepting it about two years ago.
Correct.
So, Barb, let's talk a little bit about thebirth of Avora and maybe even share with people
what the word avora means because I like thesignificance of it, but I love when you tell
(02:08):
the story.
Oh, okay.
So great, thank you.
The birth I'll start with and then I'll get tothe naming because you first have to give birth
and then you name your baby.
The birth came out of a realization and itwasn't an immediate realization.
It had been progressing for a couple of yearsactually.
I had been a chief clinician of theoreticallythe world's largest EAP company and a Canadian
(02:31):
company.
I had worked in that company for twenty eightyears and had been, as you said, a leader for
many years.
And what we were seeing, and just to say, therewas an enormous evolution in technology in my
tenure, and that has been a very exciting time.
And I certainly was part of that and wasrecognized.
(02:54):
I was awarded by Digital Health Canada as oneof the top women leaders in digital health.
But I felt that digital health was a catalyst,it was also compressing and depersonalizing
some of the mental health that people needed.
And I certainly believe in self directedlearning and self directed help and CBT
(03:18):
methodologies, but I was seeing the compressionof the service and people falling through the
cracks.
And I had been very much involved in saying,hey, some people need more.
That moderate to severe category of people whohave a struggle need more.
And there are people who have ebbs and flows intheir mental well-being.
(03:39):
And these are lifelong journeys.
They are lifelong where to maintain ourresilience and our well-being, we have to be
very focused.
And I was seeing, had committed my life toshort term solution focused, but I was saying,
Hey, there's more to be done here.
There is more people not getting what theyneed.
So, I took the opportunity and I was alsoinspired by workplace culture, which you and I
(04:02):
have talked about before.
In this clinical specific area, I took theopportunity to say, I think I want to do
something different.
And certainly with Michel Arsenault's expertisein gender diversity and his understanding and
appreciation of managing critical events ordisruptive events in the workplace, we felt we
(04:24):
could join our passions and create a differenttype of workplace well-being.
And so, AVORA was started and began, and itreally is A for Arsenault, V for Veeder, our
two names, but a new path, a new direction, anda new direction for well-being.
So, that was the vision.
And you always start something and then ifyou're open, you learn a lot.
(04:49):
And we've learned a lot and we've beeninteracting with a lot of very skilled people
to really evolve and keep this vision in theforefront of our development.
I mean, obviously, in the path of EAP, we'veseen an evolution, like you said, and
digitization has also shifted kind of when howpeople can intervene, recognizing that, like
(05:12):
you said, some people have bits and bytes,which might need some kind of intervention
where they can kinda go off and do it on theirown.
But the what the crack that you were foundingin the system was, in fact, the people that
fall through, not the people that kinda pick upthe course and go or maybe have a book or see a
therapist ready short term.
(05:33):
Let's talk a little bit about that inception ofwhat you recognize within the workplace that
was kind of being missed.
Okay.
You know the continuum mental health green,yellow, orange, red, right?
Healthy is green, red you're on fire and you'restruggling.
Preventative mental health is where theinvestment has been and good on us.
(05:56):
Good on the workplace, good on the Canadiangovernment and our provincial governments to
say prevention isn't critical.
Get it early.
So a lot, a lot of investment was placed inthat.
There was an interesting report by BostonConsulting Group in 2022, who said, and it was
bold, said 40% of the users who were trying touse EAP can't find it.
(06:21):
They can't even find it.
It's buried.
And when they get there, group that finallyfind it, 40% of those users are unhappy.
They didn't get what they need.
That's big.
That's big.
And fifty percent of those who use it drop outon a digital platform.
(06:43):
Mark Attritch talks a lot about that in hisresearch.
That user engagement is very low.
There's a lot of people and they're like me,they download an app, they use it for a second,
and it's done.
And that's measured as engagement.
So, the front side, you see this big funnel.
You see a lot of people, trying to reach, maybeengaging, but the follow through is very, very
(07:07):
low.
I've created this model describing the benefitsbecause I think they're good metaphors.
I often refer to EAP, and it's harsh, as amirage.
And remember, I was the chief clinician in avery large global company and I'm calling that
service a mirage.
And why?
(07:28):
Just to tag onto what Boston Consulting Groupsaid is that if you find it and you finally get
there, it's not enough.
It disappears quick for someone who's reallystruggling with a more complex mental health,
something that's sort of past, I'm feeling bad,or I've been struggling a little bit.
(07:49):
As you go in that continuum and you move intoyellow and orange and hopefully not red, you
need way more than a couple of sessions.
And in the evolution of the work that I wasdoing, I was seeing we had business pressure to
try to do things more compressed.
(08:09):
When I started and you started many years ago,we were working on an average of six sessions
per employee who came.
This had been compressed, in some cases, to twohours.
Yes, I remember there were at times directivesto get it down to say 3.2 or something.
And I'd be like, okay, hold on.
(08:31):
You know, with our clinical backgrounds, thatmeans that's hello, potentially hello again,
try to assess and then you're out of time.
So for the average person that's coming in,Barb, to deal with a concern and they're
relatively psychologically and emotionallyhealthy, they might be fine to kind of go along
the way and get a resource.
(08:51):
But the people that you're talking about arethe people that are costing companies the most
money.
I call it the cyclical kind of people that aredoing the turnstile, they're coming, they're
going, they're getting some, they're comingback through, and what the cost is potentially
to a company.
Yeah, and I just want to finish off.
I'm a big proponent of single session becausesome people only want one session.
(09:15):
Some people will only want that.
And you have to work where the individual whois coming to ask for help is at.
And so, I don't necessarily believe more isbetter, but ensuring good quality evidence
based care is critical, and ensuring that youare engaging in a meaningful way and
(09:37):
understanding and appreciating the depths ofthe issue that the person is struggling with.
And that's where a lot of the trauma informedpractice comes into play.
But let's go to the other side of thatcontinuum, because I think, as I said earlier,
there's been this big investment inpreventative health.
We can debate the quality of that and if wecould do it better.
But on this other side is the $6,300,000,000spend in the workplace every year in Canada.
(10:04):
Dollars Six Point Three Billion.
And so that's that sick leave cost, long term,short term disability, that absence cost.
And so if you're putting all this money intonow that red side, it's not preventative, it's
reactive.
(10:24):
It's reactive.
And the place where Michelle and I really feltwe wanted to play was how do we give people
more than that early intervention who have amore substantial issue and prevent some of that
STD and LTD cost?
And what you see in the disability world, andwe have a lot of clients that we've worked with
who are in short term disability, long termdisability, and even clients who are trying to
(10:48):
emerge into the workplace.
And what you see is that in short termdisability, two years, for those who have a
mental health condition, they will return.
Those employees are at risk to returning back.
That cycle you were talking about, they're atrisk to returning back to sick leave.
And why is that?
(11:08):
Why is that?
Because that benefit, and I described this sortof I don't know if this is the best metaphor,
but I describe it sort of as a mountain wherewe give people a lot of resources between the
period of being off and coming back to work.
But the way the benefits are designed is thatonce they return, they're on their own or they
(11:29):
use a different type of benefit, right?
They're often told, go and use your EAP now.
Well, they did this big journey and the hardestpart of the journey is actually that first
period of time when they're returning, evenpast that gradual return to work.
And I call this the job steady phase.
(11:51):
We know this person.
It's not hard to predict who these people arethat are likely to return back.
And if you work with the coordinators, they'lltell you we can predict who's going to be
likely be vulnerable again.
Because they don't have enough resources tokeep them in that steady, resilient place.
(12:12):
And what are the issues that lead to relapse?
Some of it's environmental and situational.
They hit a roadblock.
Some of it is getting on the right medicationand being compliant to medication.
And some of it is just wellness checks andreinforcing the skills they've learned to
return to work and to build up routines.
(12:35):
So, this period we've talked about, I call itmirage, and then I talked a little bit about
this.
Here's a block of service, but it ends, and itleaves you at potentially the hardest point in
getting better.
There is another benefit that I think with goodintention, the workplace has invested a lot in
(12:57):
psychological spend.
And during COVID, we saw organizations justnotching it up, 1,000, 2 thousand, not all
because some people, some organizations stillhave like $500 I call that confetti because it
sounds great.
It's beautiful.
It's all sparkly.
(13:18):
You get to spend it as you want.
You're empowered.
You throw it up just like confetti and you seewhere it lands.
Well, you're in wait lists.
You're in practices that are not targeted toworkplace issues and return to work practice.
You're working in paradigms, a pyramid ofsupervision where you can pay less for a junior
(13:39):
counselor.
They're junior, they don't have the depth andbreadth.
You have no quality control other than theregulatory bodies.
But from an investment for the workplace, I'mnot sure for that spend, people are always
getting the help they need to support thatcontinuity of care.
(13:59):
Some do.
Confetti can land in great places, but manytimes it's not.
That's sort
of In a way, Barb, when I listen to you, itsounds like kinda think about in recovery,
right, when somebody goes on that are gettingoff a substance.
And so it's like, oh, let's go to a person justthat critical that they need inpatient, and the
(14:21):
perception is they go in for a month.
And they need to continue with services.
But what often happens, and we know this, isthat people might do it sporadically, like your
confetti.
And we know that people need to get throughthat first year.
And oftentimes it's not about stoppingsubstance, not unlike what you're saying about
(14:41):
the mental health concerns.
They might learn certain things, but they needthat reinforcing concept.
Is it relational?
When you are triggered with a mental healthconcern.
And my supervisor just maybe was giving me adirective and I perceived it as he or she was
screaming at me.
And now I'm having a quote unquote, aregressive kind of experience at work.
(15:03):
You need the right supports at that time to beable to process that to say, well, fact, okay,
let's talk about what happened with yoursupervisor or your leader.
And was it objective or was it based on throughthat mental health lens that you struggle with?
So I could see that subset that you're talkingabout being very instrumental.
When you think about the determinants of healthand well-being, work is a critical place.
(15:29):
Sense of purpose, social connection, those arethe two most important variables.
Of course, money and structure is key too.
Getting back to work is important in thatbecause work can help you feel better.
So teaching and supporting and helping people,even though they may not be perfectly well,
(15:53):
work can create an environment to reallypractice and get better and better and stronger
and learn to cope.
Because often in mental health people whostruggle with anxiety, depression, concurrent
disorders, addiction issues, they will haveperiods of time where they will have to boot up
they'll have highs and lows, ebbs and flows,and medication needs to be reviewed and support
(16:18):
and strategies need to be revisited, just asyou say.
And to pull or to sort of say, now you're backat work, good, you did a good job, glad to have
you.
Now find a different resource in that EEP or gospend, you know, having this disruption in the
care journey, I'm not sure it's a good thing.
(16:39):
And I think when I talk to organizations, say,be careful how you're spending and make sure
you've evaluated.
If you've got everything leaning in this earlyintervention and you're sick leave, you miss
this mill.
And this mill is where you save.
It's not about caring, it's about strategicdecisions and ensuring that your workforce is
(17:01):
resilient and well.
This is an important investment.
So you're not talking about a bigger spend,you're talking about reallocating the spend to
address the needs of who you're missing whenthere are more complex critical concerns with
mental health.
And make sure you're spending on evaluate yourspend.
(17:22):
That dropout rate, it's unacceptable.
And you're paying every person a certain amountof money, and that dropout rate, Do you
understand the follow through rate?
What are your outcome measures?
Have you evaluated your spend on a continuum?
(17:42):
I just like the well-being continuum.
So, we could talk a lot about this.
I love consulting and going through data.
I like data a lot.
You'll know that.
But I think it's a recalibration time.
It's an opportunity because I think it's been avery dynamic time.
And we ask, why is mental health growing soexponentially year over year?
(18:05):
Right?
There's lots of reasons.
I mean, every day I read the newspaper and Isee what's happening in our society and I go,
oh my gosh, if it isn't a natural disaster,it's a political disaster, it's a war.
This is a lot for everybody, every human toabsorb every day.
And some of us are closer to that than others.
(18:28):
Of course, it affects our well-being, right?
Absolutely.
And I think, yeah, if you look at what we cameoff in a couple years, and then we've kind of
resettled.
But the anxiety level and the depression levelswere still at a high, and now we were kind of
the political kind of tensions based on wherewe are geographically and the wars that are
(18:50):
kind of going on all over the world.
The average person is talking about how anxiousthey are.
Like we said, that's situational.
So maybe I don't have the predispositionpotentially, but you're still gonna feel a
little bit anxious if you're thinking like,know where I live, Barb, about ten minutes from
the bridge.
Oh my goodness, I didn't even mention theeconomy and tariffs and all.
(19:12):
Right, and all of that stuff.
So guess what?
Your pulse here in Niagara Falls being ten,fifteen minutes from the bridge, the tensions
are higher because our local economy is basedon tourism, which we know with all the issues
with the tariffs, that's really decreased.
So my my little municipality is you can hearpeople.
(19:33):
You go to the grocery store.
You're at the pharmacy.
You hear people talking about it.
So just generally that level of anxiety hasheightened.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And Okay.
So that's one factor.
That's only one factor.
The next thing, and you are the you and I knowa lot about this topic.
I lean on you really on this topic is, youknow, workplace culture.
Mhmm.
That return on investment.
(19:55):
A toxic workplace culture costs a lot onpeople's well-being.
It impacts your bottom line and it costs youand your sick leave organizations.
And I'll just tell, I'll say I wrote a blogprobably about six weeks ago when movie Wicked
was released.
And I wrote a LinkedIn post, and it was calledDing Dong, which is dead.
(20:18):
And it talked about toxic leaderships and howhappy people are when the leadership leaves,
that problem leader leaves.
I'm not a professional LinkedIn person.
I'm not posting tons.
That post had 14,000 impressions.
(20:39):
That's big league.
I popped it.
I've never seen anything like it.
And none of them were really the people wholiked it and commented were not in the places I
thought I would get the reactions from.
It was so well received and identified that itwas the most popular post I personally have
(21:00):
ever experienced for myself.
Ding dong, which is dead.
Workplace culture impacts well-being.
Because I think if you think about it, peoplewant to go to work, and they want that meaning
and purpose and that belonging.
And if they go into an environment, if you'respending a lot of people are back to the office
or even if they're hybrid, they're still havingto interact with people and they want to make a
(21:25):
difference.
They want to make a difference with whatthey're doing.
If they're feeling like they're spending eighthours doing a task and they're not being
validated, that's core fundamentally kind ofrevert back onto them.
And if they now have had some issues in thepast around the same anxiety and depression, it
could be a little bit latent before as you andI know.
(21:45):
And now they're a little bit heightened.
Now they have to go do this eight hours a day.
So their predisposition now becomes activepotentially because of the stressors.
And then hence why we see people having moreissues showing up around the workplace because
people are having to kind of go and deliver andthey're not happy.
They give you the 60%, like they say, and thenthey go off on the way and people are talking
(22:08):
about how unhappy they are at work as well.
And guess what?
That's not the only reason why mental health isrising.
Here's the other thing, another one.
I mean, it's compounding shortage in mentalhealth practitioners.
One in five Canadians do not have a familydoctor.
If you don't have a family doctor, how do youget a referral to see a psychiatrist?
(22:36):
There is an incredible shortage ofpsychiatrists and addiction medicine expertise
and psychologists and experts in some areas ofmental health.
There are big shortages and there are waitlines.
So, if you can't get the right help and it'snot easy to access it, then that of course
(23:00):
affects your recovery and your ability to staywell.
And in the work that we're doing, Michelle andI at Ebola Well-being, we look at holistic
care.
We understand and appreciate that many of thepeople who have moderate to severe issues need
a care plan that is holistic and involvespsychiatric care, ongoing medical management,
(23:23):
addiction medicine, and we've reallyincorporated a team of social workers,
psychologists, and medical professionals, andother practitioners, OT practitioners, so that
we can create within our own ecosystem fast andresponsive care.
But the wait list and getting into the wronglane of care delays and increases the depth of
(23:50):
despair.
And I say that quite dramatically.
Well, so you guys wait six to eight months,Barb, and they're already having massive
anxiety problems, and it progresses.
They get to the point where it's, you know,people are debilitated.
They're not leaving their houses.
And then it becomes exponential, right?
The mental health just kind of six to eightmonths.
Like even to wait a month, if you're already incritical space, that's a lot.
(24:12):
Most people should be able to to get inrelatively quickly.
Now with your with the spend, let's go back tothe spend.
And they're probably directors or CEOs or orpeople that can impact the spend.
What do you think they should be looking at inreference to kind of diagnosing where they're
spending?
(24:33):
And like you said, retention, right?
Or abort rates.
Like what kind of data should they be lookingat so that if they wanted to look at their
overall kind of mental health spend.
Well, I would put together the entire bucketand I would map it out according to the
continuum of care.
I would dig into the, not who's requestinghelp, but the back end, who's following through
(24:57):
that funnel.
What percentages are hyper users?
In you and I both know in EAP, there's peoplewho are circling in and out, taking a pause,
count seeing the same counselors for in somecases, more than was showing up in the report.
So, they trust that counselor and they'regetting long term support within that EAP.
(25:19):
So, you have some very a small group of peopleusing the service a lot, and is that really the
best service for them?
And when you're looking at a spend for everyperson, what's happening to all other people?
What's the correlation between your sick leave?
The people who end up on your sick leave may ormay not be the people using that other mental
(25:40):
health service.
So I think you have to go in and see theoutcomes, then I think you need to really think
about the return to work.
And can you coordinate your providers or have aprovider that takes you through the journey of
returning to work and staying at work.
We call that getting ready for your job toreturn, that preparation, and then the
(26:05):
continuation of job study.
We're wanting to do a study, and I'm happy totalk to anyone who's interested, but we're
wanting to do a study on the population that weknow predictably are likely to return.
And we see clinical change in our practice.
We see people who come in with severedepression and drop into that sort of moderate
(26:26):
or lower level of depression and return towork.
I want to keep those people feeling well.
Can we track that group that we believe are athigher risk because we know it in our data for
two years and see if we can keep them in thejob.
Because it is way less money to have aninvestment in continual support than having
(26:50):
people cycle back and forth into sick leave.
Right, and
the percentage of people that cycle and cycleand eventually end up in long term anyway, that
cost of that one case part, right?
I mean, it's got to be huge, I reference thenumbers.
Yeah.
So, you could reinvest your spend in continuityof care and maintaining someone's stability, I
(27:13):
believe there is a strategic benefit, a returnon your investment of spending your money for
the continuity of care.
And what I know is, and this is interesting, ofthe folks that we've been seeing in our
practice, twenty eight percent voluntarily wantcontinue with their counselor once they go
(27:36):
back.
They have to do that with their psychologicalspend or out of pocket.
Many of them don't have enough money withoutgoing in their own pockets to do that.
I think the organization is very lucky thatthey want that can continue continuation of
care because it's going to make sure they staywell.
(28:01):
So it might be worth looking at it to increaseyour psychological spend for the duration of
that person's time.
So like you said, some companies only have 500,but is it that they should be looking more at
implementing something further so so that thepsychological spend could follow this employee
all the way through.
Yeah, and I think that confetti box is theinteresting one.
(28:23):
And everyone, I don't want a whole bunch ofpeople hating me saying, Oh my god, you're
giving up my freedom.
I like to choose my therapist.
But I think some of that is good, but some ofit should be targeted towards evidence based
practice focused on return to work and stayingat work.
Like it's a lot of money in that bucket formany companies.
(28:47):
Are they getting good value on that or couldthey repurpose that?
There's some clever things to be done here andit's hard to go into it in detail, but I think
examining your benefits spend, making sure yourbenefit buckets talk to each other.
They don't just become boxes that are in silos.
And that I would say is one of the mostfrustrating things I see.
(29:09):
I guess, you know, we work with a client, theycan return to work, then the workplace says,
when you run into trouble next, just use thatEAP.
Well, the EAP is not going to be enough forthat individual who's just spent six weeks off
because they've been in the depths of adepression, going to that early intervention,
lighter styled support solution focus, or, oh,go use an ICBT platform.
(29:37):
They can't even get out of bed.
How are they going to log in and follow astructured program?
Right.
So you're missing it's almost like theturnstile and you try to put them back way
back.
What you need to do is address what they'velearned, what they need, and the proper
interventions to kind of, like you said, keepthem steady, support them.
(29:58):
And sometimes it may be just be a touching basekind of thing.
But if things come up that they have aclinician that's specific, to what their needs
are to continue helping them along.
Yeah, and again, where we started in thisconversation, said there's been great
development, great behavioral healthtechnological developments.
(30:20):
Some of it looks beautiful.
It's the follow through and the ability toengage.
Clients in that yellow and orange and red zone,you got to be real.
It is an online program that's gentlyfacilitated by I don't even know if they're a
(30:44):
MA level clinician, often they're a coach.
They call them coaches.
Is that going to be enough?
Is that someone who's going to make sure theycomply to their medication and that they've got
the right medication and that they know how toadjust the strategy?
I just think re examining and reallocatingwouldn't be it's important to do that.
(31:09):
We do that in all areas of our life.
It's time to redecorate.
Maybe it's time to redecorate how we spend ourbenefits to make sure that
it's up to date.
Barb, I know that you have something thatyou're putting out to the public in the next
little while.
Why don't you share with people potentiallywhat you can share about the piece that you
(31:30):
were talking a bit about?
And for anybody that's wanting to connect withyou, where they can get ahold of you or
Michelle.
AvoorWellBeing is on LinkedIn.
That's probably our most active site.
We have a website, avoorwellbeing.com.
I have my own personal LinkedIn.
I always encourage people to reach out to me.
Next week will be a busy week for us.
(31:52):
We are releasing our first white paper.
We did an evaluation study.
We are sharing it.
It's a study that involved 124 employees wherewe compressed away time.
We reduced the sick days by over ten days.
So, in a very small population, we were able toshow getting speedy care fast, no one sitting
(32:13):
in a wait list, a clear pathway, and realquality clinical evidence based care can help
people return to work in a meaningful way.
But we're releasing that study, and we'll bedoing that through LinkedIn next week.
We're excited, and it will be our first whitepaper, we're excited to get the feedback.
(32:35):
Happy to talk to anyone who's interested.
Again, I'm very thankful, Roxanne, for theopportunity to have the conversation with you
today.
Likewise.
Thanks so much for discussing some of theelements that may be involved in the white
paper, just the whole concept.
And for everyone, mental health is on the rise.
(32:55):
And to Barb's point, when we go out and invest,we explore and we make sure that our dollar for
dollar spend is worthwhile.
And mental health is so important inproductivity and innovation and creativity.
And those subset of people are trulystruggling, and they're part of your
organization.
(33:15):
To all the things that we've been talkingabout, with all the stressors that are kinda
swirling, unfortunately, right now in ourworld, it's you're gonna you're gonna see more
of those cases.
So it's important to Barb's point to look atwhat is your spend.
Are you spending?
You're probably spending a lot.
But are you spending it on the people that needit so that they're not gonna be costing you the
(33:38):
monies that they do, or they're not gonna bepopping in and out.
They may be very critical to your company, andyou're not getting them at an optimal level of
functioning.
So, again, consider reaching out to Barb atAvora and check out the LinkedIn next week.
I will as well to be able to hear more aboutthe white paper.
So, everyone, thanks so much for hanging out.
(34:00):
I'm launching my first course on the RRWR.
It's going to be mid June.
So please reach out so I can tell you more ofthe what's involved in it.
It's gonna be a six week course with livecoaching.
Again, Barb, thanks so much.
Thanks for
everyone.
Thanks a lot for, hanging out, and we'll talkto you soon.
Take care, everyone.
Okay.
Bye bye.
(34:22):
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive,
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach.
To work with Roxanne, visitRoxanneDurhaj.com/blueprint.
We'll see you next time on Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, aplace where we have conscious conversations
about things that really matter in our lives.
And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
(00:38):
Thanks for tuning in to Authorization.
Hi, This is Ron Santor Hodge.
Thanks for hanging out with us again.
Today, I have a special colleague is
a keynote speaker,
and Barb and I've been and coach for a very
long time.
Barb was a senior leadership atiplich.com/specialhealthstrategy.
And Barbara's been on the podcast Unauthentic.
Believe she was Roxanne.
(00:59):
Once, and then she helped me with my booklaunch two years ago, which was amazing.
So, Barb, welcome back.
Oh, it's a pleasure to be here.
I'm so excited to be in conversation with youagain.
So what we thought we would do is have aconversation because it's Mental Health Week,
starting the week of May 5, and such animportant topic that I think is being talked
(01:22):
about a lot, but I think what we need to do isto really drill down to the experts that are
dealing with it related to the workplace, andBarb is one of them.
Barb is the CEO of Aura Well-being and startedthis company because there were certain
expertise and gaps in services for mentalhealth that needed to be addressed.
And herself and her COO, Michelle Arsenault,started this amazing business.
(01:46):
And it's gone almost it's about two years ago.
A year and a half.
Almost a year and a half from the officiallaunch.
Right.
And I think when we started talking was almostyou were incepting it about two years ago.
Correct.
So, Barb, let's talk a little bit about thebirth of Avora and maybe even share with people
what the word avora means because I like thesignificance of it, but I love when you tell
(02:08):
the story.
Oh, okay.
So great, thank you.
The birth I'll start with and then I'll get tothe naming because you first have to give birth
and then you name your baby.
The birth came out of a realization and itwasn't an immediate realization.
It had been progressing for a couple of yearsactually.
I had been a chief clinician of theoreticallythe world's largest EAP company and a Canadian
(02:31):
company.
I had worked in that company for twenty eightyears and had been, as you said, a leader for
many years.
And what we were seeing, and just to say, therewas an enormous evolution in technology in my
tenure, and that has been a very exciting time.
And I certainly was part of that and wasrecognized.
(02:54):
I was awarded by Digital Health Canada as oneof the top women leaders in digital health.
But I felt that digital health was a catalyst,it was also compressing and depersonalizing
some of the mental health that people needed.
And I certainly believe in self directedlearning and self directed help and CBT
(03:18):
methodologies, but I was seeing the compressionof the service and people falling through the
cracks.
And I had been very much involved in saying,hey, some people need more.
That moderate to severe category of people whohave a struggle need more.
And there are people who have ebbs and flows intheir mental well-being.
(03:39):
And these are lifelong journeys.
They are lifelong where to maintain ourresilience and our well-being, we have to be
very focused.
And I was seeing, had committed my life toshort term solution focused, but I was saying,
Hey, there's more to be done here.
There is more people not getting what theyneed.
So, I took the opportunity and I was alsoinspired by workplace culture, which you and I
(04:02):
have talked about before.
In this clinical specific area, I took theopportunity to say, I think I want to do
something different.
And certainly with Michel Arsenault's expertisein gender diversity and his understanding and
appreciation of managing critical events ordisruptive events in the workplace, we felt we
(04:24):
could join our passions and create a differenttype of workplace well-being.
And so, AVORA was started and began, and itreally is A for Arsenault, V for Veeder, our
two names, but a new path, a new direction, anda new direction for well-being.
So, that was the vision.
And you always start something and then ifyou're open, you learn a lot.
(04:49):
And we've learned a lot and we've beeninteracting with a lot of very skilled people
to really evolve and keep this vision in theforefront of our development.
I mean, obviously, in the path of EAP, we'veseen an evolution, like you said, and
digitization has also shifted kind of when howpeople can intervene, recognizing that, like
(05:12):
you said, some people have bits and bytes,which might need some kind of intervention
where they can kinda go off and do it on theirown.
But the what the crack that you were foundingin the system was, in fact, the people that
fall through, not the people that kinda pick upthe course and go or maybe have a book or see a
therapist ready short term.
(05:33):
Let's talk a little bit about that inception ofwhat you recognize within the workplace that
was kind of being missed.
Okay.
You know the continuum mental health green,yellow, orange, red, right?
Healthy is green, red you're on fire and you'restruggling.
Preventative mental health is where theinvestment has been and good on us.
(05:56):
Good on the workplace, good on the Canadiangovernment and our provincial governments to
say prevention isn't critical.
Get it early.
So a lot, a lot of investment was placed inthat.
There was an interesting report by BostonConsulting Group in 2022, who said, and it was
bold, said 40% of the users who were trying touse EAP can't find it.
(06:21):
They can't even find it.
It's buried.
And when they get there, group that finallyfind it, 40% of those users are unhappy.
They didn't get what they need.
That's big.
That's big.
And fifty percent of those who use it drop outon a digital platform.
(06:43):
Mark Attritch talks a lot about that in hisresearch.
That user engagement is very low.
There's a lot of people and they're like me,they download an app, they use it for a second,
and it's done.
And that's measured as engagement.
So, the front side, you see this big funnel.
You see a lot of people, trying to reach, maybeengaging, but the follow through is very, very
(07:07):
low.
I've created this model describing the benefitsbecause I think they're good metaphors.
I often refer to EAP, and it's harsh, as amirage.
And remember, I was the chief clinician in avery large global company and I'm calling that
service a mirage.
And why?
(07:28):
Just to tag onto what Boston Consulting Groupsaid is that if you find it and you finally get
there, it's not enough.
It disappears quick for someone who's reallystruggling with a more complex mental health,
something that's sort of past, I'm feeling bad,or I've been struggling a little bit.
(07:49):
As you go in that continuum and you move intoyellow and orange and hopefully not red, you
need way more than a couple of sessions.
And in the evolution of the work that I wasdoing, I was seeing we had business pressure to
try to do things more compressed.
(08:09):
When I started and you started many years ago,we were working on an average of six sessions
per employee who came.
This had been compressed, in some cases, to twohours.
Yes, I remember there were at times directivesto get it down to say 3.2 or something.
And I'd be like, okay, hold on.
(08:31):
You know, with our clinical backgrounds, thatmeans that's hello, potentially hello again,
try to assess and then you're out of time.
So for the average person that's coming in,Barb, to deal with a concern and they're
relatively psychologically and emotionallyhealthy, they might be fine to kind of go along
the way and get a resource.
(08:51):
But the people that you're talking about arethe people that are costing companies the most
money.
I call it the cyclical kind of people that aredoing the turnstile, they're coming, they're
going, they're getting some, they're comingback through, and what the cost is potentially
to a company.
Yeah, and I just want to finish off.
I'm a big proponent of single session becausesome people only want one session.
(09:15):
Some people will only want that.
And you have to work where the individual whois coming to ask for help is at.
And so, I don't necessarily believe more isbetter, but ensuring good quality evidence
based care is critical, and ensuring that youare engaging in a meaningful way and
(09:37):
understanding and appreciating the depths ofthe issue that the person is struggling with.
And that's where a lot of the trauma informedpractice comes into play.
But let's go to the other side of thatcontinuum, because I think, as I said earlier,
there's been this big investment inpreventative health.
We can debate the quality of that and if wecould do it better.
But on this other side is the $6,300,000,000spend in the workplace every year in Canada.
(10:04):
Dollars Six Point Three Billion.
And so that's that sick leave cost, long term,short term disability, that absence cost.
And so if you're putting all this money intonow that red side, it's not preventative, it's
reactive.
(10:24):
It's reactive.
And the place where Michelle and I really feltwe wanted to play was how do we give people
more than that early intervention who have amore substantial issue and prevent some of that
STD and LTD cost?
And what you see in the disability world, andwe have a lot of clients that we've worked with
who are in short term disability, long termdisability, and even clients who are trying to
(10:48):
emerge into the workplace.
And what you see is that in short termdisability, two years, for those who have a
mental health condition, they will return.
Those employees are at risk to returning back.
That cycle you were talking about, they're atrisk to returning back to sick leave.
And why is that?
(11:08):
Why is that?
Because that benefit, and I described this sortof I don't know if this is the best metaphor,
but I describe it sort of as a mountain wherewe give people a lot of resources between the
period of being off and coming back to work.
But the way the benefits are designed is thatonce they return, they're on their own or they
(11:29):
use a different type of benefit, right?
They're often told, go and use your EAP now.
Well, they did this big journey and the hardestpart of the journey is actually that first
period of time when they're returning, evenpast that gradual return to work.
And I call this the job steady phase.
(11:51):
We know this person.
It's not hard to predict who these people arethat are likely to return back.
And if you work with the coordinators, they'lltell you we can predict who's going to be
likely be vulnerable again.
Because they don't have enough resources tokeep them in that steady, resilient place.
(12:12):
And what are the issues that lead to relapse?
Some of it's environmental and situational.
They hit a roadblock.
Some of it is getting on the right medicationand being compliant to medication.
And some of it is just wellness checks andreinforcing the skills they've learned to
return to work and to build up routines.
(12:35):
So, this period we've talked about, I call itmirage, and then I talked a little bit about
this.
Here's a block of service, but it ends, and itleaves you at potentially the hardest point in
getting better.
There is another benefit that I think with goodintention, the workplace has invested a lot in
(12:57):
psychological spend.
And during COVID, we saw organizations justnotching it up, 1,000, 2 thousand, not all
because some people, some organizations stillhave like $500 I call that confetti because it
sounds great.
It's beautiful.
It's all sparkly.
(13:18):
You get to spend it as you want.
You're empowered.
You throw it up just like confetti and you seewhere it lands.
Well, you're in wait lists.
You're in practices that are not targeted toworkplace issues and return to work practice.
You're working in paradigms, a pyramid ofsupervision where you can pay less for a junior
(13:39):
counselor.
They're junior, they don't have the depth andbreadth.
You have no quality control other than theregulatory bodies.
But from an investment for the workplace, I'mnot sure for that spend, people are always
getting the help they need to support thatcontinuity of care.
(13:59):
Some do.
Confetti can land in great places, but manytimes it's not.
That's sort
of In a way, Barb, when I listen to you, itsounds like kinda think about in recovery,
right, when somebody goes on that are gettingoff a substance.
And so it's like, oh, let's go to a person justthat critical that they need inpatient, and the
(14:21):
perception is they go in for a month.
And they need to continue with services.
But what often happens, and we know this, isthat people might do it sporadically, like your
confetti.
And we know that people need to get throughthat first year.
And oftentimes it's not about stoppingsubstance, not unlike what you're saying about
(14:41):
the mental health concerns.
They might learn certain things, but they needthat reinforcing concept.
Is it relational?
When you are triggered with a mental healthconcern.
And my supervisor just maybe was giving me adirective and I perceived it as he or she was
screaming at me.
And now I'm having a quote unquote, aregressive kind of experience at work.
(15:03):
You need the right supports at that time to beable to process that to say, well, fact, okay,
let's talk about what happened with yoursupervisor or your leader.
And was it objective or was it based on throughthat mental health lens that you struggle with?
So I could see that subset that you're talkingabout being very instrumental.
When you think about the determinants of healthand well-being, work is a critical place.
(15:29):
Sense of purpose, social connection, those arethe two most important variables.
Of course, money and structure is key too.
Getting back to work is important in thatbecause work can help you feel better.
So teaching and supporting and helping people,even though they may not be perfectly well,
(15:53):
work can create an environment to reallypractice and get better and better and stronger
and learn to cope.
Because often in mental health people whostruggle with anxiety, depression, concurrent
disorders, addiction issues, they will haveperiods of time where they will have to boot up
they'll have highs and lows, ebbs and flows,and medication needs to be reviewed and support
(16:18):
and strategies need to be revisited, just asyou say.
And to pull or to sort of say, now you're backat work, good, you did a good job, glad to have
you.
Now find a different resource in that EEP or gospend, you know, having this disruption in the
care journey, I'm not sure it's a good thing.
(16:39):
And I think when I talk to organizations, say,be careful how you're spending and make sure
you've evaluated.
If you've got everything leaning in this earlyintervention and you're sick leave, you miss
this mill.
And this mill is where you save.
It's not about caring, it's about strategicdecisions and ensuring that your workforce is
(17:01):
resilient and well.
This is an important investment.
So you're not talking about a bigger spend,you're talking about reallocating the spend to
address the needs of who you're missing whenthere are more complex critical concerns with
mental health.
And make sure you're spending on evaluate yourspend.
(17:22):
That dropout rate, it's unacceptable.
And you're paying every person a certain amountof money, and that dropout rate, Do you
understand the follow through rate?
What are your outcome measures?
Have you evaluated your spend on a continuum?
(17:42):
I just like the well-being continuum.
So, we could talk a lot about this.
I love consulting and going through data.
I like data a lot.
You'll know that.
But I think it's a recalibration time.
It's an opportunity because I think it's been avery dynamic time.
And we ask, why is mental health growing soexponentially year over year?
(18:05):
Right?
There's lots of reasons.
I mean, every day I read the newspaper and Isee what's happening in our society and I go,
oh my gosh, if it isn't a natural disaster,it's a political disaster, it's a war.
This is a lot for everybody, every human toabsorb every day.
And some of us are closer to that than others.
(18:28):
Of course, it affects our well-being, right?
Absolutely.
And I think, yeah, if you look at what we cameoff in a couple years, and then we've kind of
resettled.
But the anxiety level and the depression levelswere still at a high, and now we were kind of
the political kind of tensions based on wherewe are geographically and the wars that are
(18:50):
kind of going on all over the world.
The average person is talking about how anxiousthey are.
Like we said, that's situational.
So maybe I don't have the predispositionpotentially, but you're still gonna feel a
little bit anxious if you're thinking like,know where I live, Barb, about ten minutes from
the bridge.
Oh my goodness, I didn't even mention theeconomy and tariffs and all.
(19:12):
Right, and all of that stuff.
So guess what?
Your pulse here in Niagara Falls being ten,fifteen minutes from the bridge, the tensions
are higher because our local economy is basedon tourism, which we know with all the issues
with the tariffs, that's really decreased.
So my my little municipality is you can hearpeople.
(19:33):
You go to the grocery store.
You're at the pharmacy.
You hear people talking about it.
So just generally that level of anxiety hasheightened.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And Okay.
So that's one factor.
That's only one factor.
The next thing, and you are the you and I knowa lot about this topic.
I lean on you really on this topic is, youknow, workplace culture.
Mhmm.
That return on investment.
(19:55):
A toxic workplace culture costs a lot onpeople's well-being.
It impacts your bottom line and it costs youand your sick leave organizations.
And I'll just tell, I'll say I wrote a blogprobably about six weeks ago when movie Wicked
was released.
And I wrote a LinkedIn post, and it was calledDing Dong, which is dead.
(20:18):
And it talked about toxic leaderships and howhappy people are when the leadership leaves,
that problem leader leaves.
I'm not a professional LinkedIn person.
I'm not posting tons.
That post had 14,000 impressions.
(20:39):
That's big league.
I popped it.
I've never seen anything like it.
And none of them were really the people wholiked it and commented were not in the places I
thought I would get the reactions from.
It was so well received and identified that itwas the most popular post I personally have
(21:00):
ever experienced for myself.
Ding dong, which is dead.
Workplace culture impacts well-being.
Because I think if you think about it, peoplewant to go to work, and they want that meaning
and purpose and that belonging.
And if they go into an environment, if you'respending a lot of people are back to the office
or even if they're hybrid, they're still havingto interact with people and they want to make a
(21:25):
difference.
They want to make a difference with whatthey're doing.
If they're feeling like they're spending eighthours doing a task and they're not being
validated, that's core fundamentally kind ofrevert back onto them.
And if they now have had some issues in thepast around the same anxiety and depression, it
could be a little bit latent before as you andI know.
(21:45):
And now they're a little bit heightened.
Now they have to go do this eight hours a day.
So their predisposition now becomes activepotentially because of the stressors.
And then hence why we see people having moreissues showing up around the workplace because
people are having to kind of go and deliver andthey're not happy.
They give you the 60%, like they say, and thenthey go off on the way and people are talking
(22:08):
about how unhappy they are at work as well.
And guess what?
That's not the only reason why mental health isrising.
Here's the other thing, another one.
I mean, it's compounding shortage in mentalhealth practitioners.
One in five Canadians do not have a familydoctor.
If you don't have a family doctor, how do youget a referral to see a psychiatrist?
(22:36):
There is an incredible shortage ofpsychiatrists and addiction medicine expertise
and psychologists and experts in some areas ofmental health.
There are big shortages and there are waitlines.
So, if you can't get the right help and it'snot easy to access it, then that of course
(23:00):
affects your recovery and your ability to staywell.
And in the work that we're doing, Michelle andI at Ebola Well-being, we look at holistic
care.
We understand and appreciate that many of thepeople who have moderate to severe issues need
a care plan that is holistic and involvespsychiatric care, ongoing medical management,
(23:23):
addiction medicine, and we've reallyincorporated a team of social workers,
psychologists, and medical professionals, andother practitioners, OT practitioners, so that
we can create within our own ecosystem fast andresponsive care.
But the wait list and getting into the wronglane of care delays and increases the depth of
(23:50):
despair.
And I say that quite dramatically.
Well, so you guys wait six to eight months,Barb, and they're already having massive
anxiety problems, and it progresses.
They get to the point where it's, you know,people are debilitated.
They're not leaving their houses.
And then it becomes exponential, right?
The mental health just kind of six to eightmonths.
Like even to wait a month, if you're already incritical space, that's a lot.
(24:12):
Most people should be able to to get inrelatively quickly.
Now with your with the spend, let's go back tothe spend.
And they're probably directors or CEOs or orpeople that can impact the spend.
What do you think they should be looking at inreference to kind of diagnosing where they're
spending?
(24:33):
And like you said, retention, right?
Or abort rates.
Like what kind of data should they be lookingat so that if they wanted to look at their
overall kind of mental health spend.
Well, I would put together the entire bucketand I would map it out according to the
continuum of care.
I would dig into the, not who's requestinghelp, but the back end, who's following through
(24:57):
that funnel.
What percentages are hyper users?
In you and I both know in EAP, there's peoplewho are circling in and out, taking a pause,
count seeing the same counselors for in somecases, more than was showing up in the report.
So, they trust that counselor and they'regetting long term support within that EAP.
(25:19):
So, you have some very a small group of peopleusing the service a lot, and is that really the
best service for them?
And when you're looking at a spend for everyperson, what's happening to all other people?
What's the correlation between your sick leave?
The people who end up on your sick leave may ormay not be the people using that other mental
(25:40):
health service.
So I think you have to go in and see theoutcomes, then I think you need to really think
about the return to work.
And can you coordinate your providers or have aprovider that takes you through the journey of
returning to work and staying at work.
We call that getting ready for your job toreturn, that preparation, and then the
(26:05):
continuation of job study.
We're wanting to do a study, and I'm happy totalk to anyone who's interested, but we're
wanting to do a study on the population that weknow predictably are likely to return.
And we see clinical change in our practice.
We see people who come in with severedepression and drop into that sort of moderate
(26:26):
or lower level of depression and return towork.
I want to keep those people feeling well.
Can we track that group that we believe are athigher risk because we know it in our data for
two years and see if we can keep them in thejob.
Because it is way less money to have aninvestment in continual support than having
(26:50):
people cycle back and forth into sick leave.
Right, and
the percentage of people that cycle and cycleand eventually end up in long term anyway, that
cost of that one case part, right?
I mean, it's got to be huge, I reference thenumbers.
Yeah.
So, you could reinvest your spend in continuityof care and maintaining someone's stability, I
(27:13):
believe there is a strategic benefit, a returnon your investment of spending your money for
the continuity of care.
And what I know is, and this is interesting, ofthe folks that we've been seeing in our
practice, twenty eight percent voluntarily wantcontinue with their counselor once they go
(27:36):
back.
They have to do that with their psychologicalspend or out of pocket.
Many of them don't have enough money withoutgoing in their own pockets to do that.
I think the organization is very lucky thatthey want that can continue continuation of
care because it's going to make sure they staywell.
(28:01):
So it might be worth looking at it to increaseyour psychological spend for the duration of
that person's time.
So like you said, some companies only have 500,but is it that they should be looking more at
implementing something further so so that thepsychological spend could follow this employee
all the way through.
Yeah, and I think that confetti box is theinteresting one.
(28:23):
And everyone, I don't want a whole bunch ofpeople hating me saying, Oh my god, you're
giving up my freedom.
I like to choose my therapist.
But I think some of that is good, but some ofit should be targeted towards evidence based
practice focused on return to work and stayingat work.
Like it's a lot of money in that bucket formany companies.
(28:47):
Are they getting good value on that or couldthey repurpose that?
There's some clever things to be done here andit's hard to go into it in detail, but I think
examining your benefits spend, making sure yourbenefit buckets talk to each other.
They don't just become boxes that are in silos.
And that I would say is one of the mostfrustrating things I see.
(29:09):
I guess, you know, we work with a client, theycan return to work, then the workplace says,
when you run into trouble next, just use thatEAP.
Well, the EAP is not going to be enough forthat individual who's just spent six weeks off
because they've been in the depths of adepression, going to that early intervention,
lighter styled support solution focus, or, oh,go use an ICBT platform.
(29:37):
They can't even get out of bed.
How are they going to log in and follow astructured program?
Right.
So you're missing it's almost like theturnstile and you try to put them back way
back.
What you need to do is address what they'velearned, what they need, and the proper
interventions to kind of, like you said, keepthem steady, support them.
(29:58):
And sometimes it may be just be a touching basekind of thing.
But if things come up that they have aclinician that's specific, to what their needs
are to continue helping them along.
Yeah, and again, where we started in thisconversation, said there's been great
development, great behavioral healthtechnological developments.
(30:20):
Some of it looks beautiful.
It's the follow through and the ability toengage.
Clients in that yellow and orange and red zone,you got to be real.
It is an online program that's gentlyfacilitated by I don't even know if they're a
(30:44):
MA level clinician, often they're a coach.
They call them coaches.
Is that going to be enough?
Is that someone who's going to make sure theycomply to their medication and that they've got
the right medication and that they know how toadjust the strategy?
I just think re examining and reallocatingwouldn't be it's important to do that.
(31:09):
We do that in all areas of our life.
It's time to redecorate.
Maybe it's time to redecorate how we spend ourbenefits to make sure that
it's up to date.
Barb, I know that you have something thatyou're putting out to the public in the next
little while.
Why don't you share with people potentiallywhat you can share about the piece that you
(31:30):
were talking a bit about?
And for anybody that's wanting to connect withyou, where they can get ahold of you or
Michelle.
AvoorWellBeing is on LinkedIn.
That's probably our most active site.
We have a website, avoorwellbeing.com.
I have my own personal LinkedIn.
I always encourage people to reach out to me.
Next week will be a busy week for us.
(31:52):
We are releasing our first white paper.
We did an evaluation study.
We are sharing it.
It's a study that involved 124 employees wherewe compressed away time.
We reduced the sick days by over ten days.
So, in a very small population, we were able toshow getting speedy care fast, no one sitting
(32:13):
in a wait list, a clear pathway, and realquality clinical evidence based care can help
people return to work in a meaningful way.
But we're releasing that study, and we'll bedoing that through LinkedIn next week.
We're excited, and it will be our first whitepaper, we're excited to get the feedback.
(32:35):
Happy to talk to anyone who's interested.
Again, I'm very thankful, Roxanne, for theopportunity to have the conversation with you
today.
Likewise.
Thanks so much for discussing some of theelements that may be involved in the white
paper, just the whole concept.
And for everyone, mental health is on the rise.
(32:55):
And to Barb's point, when we go out and invest,we explore and we make sure that our dollar for
dollar spend is worthwhile.
And mental health is so important inproductivity and innovation and creativity.
And those subset of people are trulystruggling, and they're part of your
organization.
(33:15):
To all the things that we've been talkingabout, with all the stressors that are kinda
swirling, unfortunately, right now in ourworld, it's you're gonna you're gonna see more
of those cases.
So it's important to Barb's point to look atwhat is your spend.
Are you spending?
You're probably spending a lot.
But are you spending it on the people that needit so that they're not gonna be costing you the
(33:38):
monies that they do, or they're not gonna bepopping in and out.
They may be very critical to your company, andyou're not getting them at an optimal level of
functioning.
So, again, consider reaching out to Barb atAvora and check out the LinkedIn next week.
I will as well to be able to hear more aboutthe white paper.
So, everyone, thanks so much for hanging out.
(34:00):
I'm launching my first course on the RRWR.
It's going to be mid June.
So please reach out so I can tell you more ofthe what's involved in it.
It's gonna be a six week course with livecoaching.
Again, Barb, thanks so much.
Thanks for
everyone.
Thanks a lot for, hanging out, and we'll talkto you soon.
Take care, everyone.
Okay.
Bye bye.
(34:22):
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living withRoxanne, creating the space for positive,
healthy change.
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist,and coach.
To work with Roxanne, visitRoxanneDurhaj.com/blueprint.
We'll see you next time on Authentic Livingwith Roxanne.
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