Cathleen Quigley: Building the Backbone of the Internet

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I was pretending to be something I was not.
But when I transitioned years later, that all shifted.
It totally shifted.
And I think I was a better team player and manager and leader once I was aware of andcould be myself.
Welcome to AGN Studios and back to the Badass Leaders podcast.

(00:23):
Today's guest is an expert in innovation, resilience and leadership.
Kathleen Quigley is a trailblazing broadband system architect, expert witness and LGBTQIAplus advocate with a career over three decades at cutting edge technology.
She's named inventor on over 100 US patents, a Broadcom fellow and was inducted as a cableTV

(00:48):
pioneer in 2019.
Recently, she and her Broadcom team also received the National Academy of Television Artsand Sciences Technology and Engineering Emmy Award for pioneering technologies enabling
high-performance communication over cable TV systems.
I got to the Emmy.
I'll never be able to hold an Emmy again.

(01:09):
It was so amazing.
Thank you, Kathleen, for sharing that with me.
So Kathleen is the founder and president of Swift Water Consulting, where she advises toplegal
semiconductor and telecom companies on complex tech strategy and intellectual property.
But beyond the technical accolades, she brings a uniquely human perspective.

(01:29):
As a trans woman, Kathleen has not only broken barriers in boardrooms and labs, she'shelped redefine what courageous, authentic leadership truly looks like.
I'm so excited.
I love this episode.
The amount of wisdom we have in this.
Compassion, heart, brilliance.
And for those of you like me, you're a little nerdy inside.
We do get a little nerdy in science into so much of what brought computers and internetand all of that to where it is today You're gonna love it.

(01:55):
Also take a moment and share this episode with someone that you think it would make animpact in their life So pause go ahead and do that now you'll forget because the episode
so good so go ahead and do it now Alrighty, let's do this to join me Angela Gill Nelms ontoday's episode of the badass leaders podcast where I'm joined each week by industry
experts for intimate and eye-opening discussions

(02:18):
about the challenges and joys facing the leaders of today.
Listen in and get ready to scale your company, grow your brand, and unlock your fullbadass potential.
Well, first off, welcome to AGN Studios and the Badass Leaders podcast.

(02:38):
Thank you.
We're super excited to have you.
Listeners, I mentioned this a little bit in the intro that recorded, but I have knownKathleen for several years.
both serve on the College of Engineering Board at Georgia Tech.
And as a reminder, this podcast is our beliefs.
It doesn't affiliate with any of our work that we do with Georgia Tech or anything likethat.

(02:59):
And so we're going to feel free to share our thoughts and experiences.
And one of the things I loved about Kathleen over the years is when you're sitting in aboard meeting and you have these high powered executives, some of us
myself mostly, can talk a lot.
And then there are other people that are incredibly wise.
And then when they speak up, it's just filled with wisdom.

(03:20):
And I always thought that about you, Kathleen.
And so then at the last board meeting when you received your most recent award, I was justlike, you know, the world needs to hear more of your life story, how you have arrived.
here today, some of your struggles and what advice you might give to other individuals.
So now I'm to pause and shut up.

(03:42):
And I want you to tell us Kathleen, like why you're here today.
And then let's dig into your life story, who you are as a human being.
Although one thing to say, think I'm probably like a whole lot of people.
I definitely struggle with the imposter syndrome.
And especially in like the COE meetings, the big meetings, I feel very intimidated by allthese people and I don't often speak up.

(04:06):
But in the smaller groups, I think people know I pull my weight and offer my opinion andengage.
But I do sometimes find it a little intimidating.
It's something I've struggled with my whole life.
Okay, and listeners, you've already heard the intro and many of the things that Kathleenhas done and we're gonna talk about more of them.
And I just wanna encourage people, because a lot of times people think they're the onlyones who experience imposter syndrome.

(04:29):
And I had some people tell me recently that they've never experienced imposter syndromeand I think that's bullshit.
I think they're lying.
I really, kudos to you if that's the truth.
But I love the fact that the reality is imposter syndrome is normal.
and just having the courage to speak up anyway.

(04:50):
Well, I do know, having kind of lived on both sides of the equation, that there are menwho experience imposter syndrome, although I think it's much less common.
But definitely women in tech, found, because I've always been very attuned.
And I see it, I've seen it many times and had to try to struggle against it personally,but also for some of my employees and get them to realize they have so much more to give

(05:16):
and could do that job if you would just apply.
Yes, exactly, exactly.
Okay, so tell us about yourself.
gosh, well since I don't know what you said in intro.
Just give it to us all.
Well, I'm a technologist and I've been very fortunate to be at the front end of the VLSIsilicon integrated circuit.

(05:40):
Maybe that's the best way to say it.
that we've gone through, the digital revolution.
And specifically, I'm in data communications.
so networking makes everything happen.
And in today's Internet and connected world.
And that I was there when it started or not exactly.
close enough that it felt like you could just jump right in.

(06:01):
And I was just really fortunate to work at some companies and work with some people whowere really quite visionary.
And so it was great.
I got to ride the wave, which, you know, certainly, and it's still going, I think, AI ohand its impacts will be.
continue to drive us forward in technology.

(06:23):
So it'll be interesting to see where that goes.
And of course, data network, data communications is absolutely crucial to AI.
I don't know, really interesting to see.
And you, I'm gonna go ahead and say it here, just re- you didn't bring your Emmy with you,did you?
We need a picture of the Emmy!
oh

(06:44):
I wasn't sure whether you know it's still so awkward but I thought well maybe if youwanted to see it just as a you know for you but I did not want to bring it on camera.
I it.
love it.
Okay.
But what it is is I think I learned something new at that event because when I think of Ithink when a lot of the world thinks of Emmys they think in one area and they don't
realize about the technology Emmys.

(07:04):
Yeah.
And so you and your team that are on the patent for go ahead and describe what it is forbroadband recently received honor for that in your hard work and what the impact it has
had on the world.
Yeah, no, that's that's true.
And honestly, I had no idea there was an award, an Emmy Award for technology.
It's actually the technology and engineering Emmy, m which appears to be issued like everyother year.

(07:30):
It's like a two year thing.
But again, I don't know.
But uh it was for uh actually to Broadcom, the corporation that, you know, I was thereearly on and started the cable division, the cable business for Broadcom.
And
It was the award was for uh pioneering high performance communications uh over cable TVnetworks, which is basically streaming streaming TV.

(07:59):
uh So, yeah, it was pretty cool.
was really nice to get recognized.
And so there was, I guess, total of six of us were recognized by name.
uh But honestly, there were hundreds and hundreds of people and some incredibly smartpeople who worked really hard on this.
So it was a Broadcom award.
It's not just me, but I was very flattered and it was great to get one personally.

(08:23):
Yeah, well, I think it's amazing.
think when especially being both of us being engineers and so I want to talk about youcoming up through school.
We both went to Georgia Tech.
We did.
So we both believed Georgia Tech.
And I think that when you get honored for hard work that you I mean, it's one thing youhave what over 100 patents?
Yeah, right.
So you have over 100 patents, you've done so much innovative work.

(08:46):
And to have a moment years after you've been part of a team that's invented somethingthat's had such a major
I mean, think about streaming TV over the internet and cable, right?
Like that is huge.
And so I guess over cable.
And I think to be able to be recognized for that, like kudos to the world for that kind ofstuff because it's added so much value.

(09:08):
It was really meaningful to me.
um I was pretty floored.
So how about we do this?
Why don't we talk a little bit about your life and how you got into broadband and how yougot into that.
So tell us a little bit about who you are.
uh Well, I grew up in Washington, D.C.

(09:28):
My father was a biochemist with the government.
He worked at the National Science Foundation and NIH.
He was one of these researchers coming out.
He went to school on the GI Bill after World War II and was a scientist.
He had high expectations of his children to do well and to...

(09:52):
do something scientific.
He felt like you needed something that you could fall back on and you could always get ajob.
So he had very strong opinions about what he wanted to do.
He actually wanted me to go into the military as well.
And that was just never going to happen, honestly, for reasons I couldn't really elucidateat the time.

(10:13):
But certainly that was not going to happen.
I did go to engineering school, although by the time I got to high school and I was goodat math and science, you know, I was I was really a good student.
But I wanted to go study philosophy and write music and play songs and, you know, do thatkind of thing.
And he was not going to have it.
I also played some sports and I got a scholarship offer to play sports in college and hewas not going to that either.

(10:40):
He insisted I go to Georgia Tech.
At this point, he was a professor at the University of Georgia and he insisted that I goto Georgia Tech.
So that's interesting.
Look at that.
You mean that community college up in Athens.
uh
whatever, somewhere.
But yeah, so I ended up going to Georgia Tech and studying electrical engineering, which Ihad an affinity for.

(11:01):
I I had built my own guitar effects processors early on, which I still actually tinker in,which is kind of fun.
And I'd been a ham radio operator.
So I built some radios and had, you know, so I was interested in electronics, but youknow, I was rebelling.
I didn't want to do anything my father wanted me to do.

(11:22):
Especially because I was kind of the forgotten middle child.
was the third of, I was the fourth of five and my younger brother had some serious mentalhealth issues.
And so I was just left to my own devices.
Which in a lot of ways is good.
I think it's healthy for kids, but I was definitely just ignored.

(11:47):
So I don't know, I had, and also I was, from early on I was struggling with my identity.
And honestly this was in the 60s.
I had no words or concepts to put to what I was feeling.
And there were no, I guess there were actually role models and people but I had no accessto them.

(12:08):
It's not like today you can search on the internet.
so I had no idea really what was the matter with me but I knew something was wrong.
you know, after getting beaten up, you know, in school every day for years, I decided thisis not the right thing.
And so I learned to be another person.

(12:31):
I learned to be something I knew I was not.
And I think long term mentally that has, that was a huge mistake because I was very false.
I created a whole persona and I could be that person and it had some dips and things, but
I definitely felt like I had a role to play and I did it and that took its toll.

(12:56):
So eventually I had to face up, face to the music and I couldn't go on anymore uhpretending to be a man.
And thankfully it worked out where medical science is wonderful and there's a lot you cando.
Unfortunately, it's only for people who have the funds, which is terrible.

(13:18):
um And we're rolling back so much of the progress we've made in uh society today in theUS.
But um I was very fortunate.
So I was able to do as much as medical science would allow.
uh
But without it, I wouldn't be here to talk with you.

(13:39):
I just wasn't gonna make it.
It just took it all out of me and eventually I was empty.
So anyway, I'm Mary.
I went to Georgia Tech, studied electrical engineering and they didn't have computerengineering at the time, so I did the computer science minor thing.
And I co-opped and got to work writing code early on and designing hardware and someanalog too.

(14:03):
So I did analog and digital.
got involved with the first company I started with after college was a company called DCAor Digital Communications Associates.
And they were an early networking company.
They did some X.25 and uh async dial-up things and sort of sharing terminals for like minicomputers.

(14:29):
Which was sort of niche, right?
I mean, it was a little different, but they...
uh
And this was in, like about what year was this?
I graduated in 1984, but I started working for DCA in 1983.
So really, I mean, I'm just thinking in my head because I'm a little younger.
I was born in 75.

(14:50):
And so I, you know, got my first my own for graduation.
I got a computer for graduation.
We had computers.
had a computer in our house.
And so I was very fortunate and did gifted programs and did computer stuff.
But I think about the advances that you were on that way, like you were talking about thatwave of the advances that happened in the 80s and 90s was just so phenomenal.

(15:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
When I was in high school, got a, what was those things called?
A time.
Macintosh.
No, no, Macintosh didn't exist.
I know, that's what talking about.
I guess it ran CPM.
don't know.
Computer, I don't know.
It was the precursor to DOS.

(15:36):
DOS, yes.
Yeah, so there were some stuff.
In fact, when I was younger, uh my dad actually, I mean, he was a biochemist, but by thattime, his role at the University of Georgia was working at their computer center.
And so he had, he was a, I don't know what he did exactly, but I do know he uh led COSMIC,which dealt with disseminating uh NASA technology to the world and other things.

(16:05):
And one of the big things he did,
was he started computer centers all over the country.
helped, because biochemists were some of the early adopters, because you had thousands andthousands of organic compounds, right?
And so being able to build a database that was searchable in certain ways was a hugething.
And the government did that.
And so he was involved in that.

(16:27):
So I would go to work with him, and this was in Athens, Georgia, and play on the computersin the summer sometimes.
uh
These were mainframes.
uh So I learned to program some basic things and do JCL stuff ah just because that was funand I could do that.

(16:51):
But DCA started building add-in boards for the IBM PC, which was just released in 1983, Iguess.
82 or 83 was when it was actually announced.
And that was the big shift, I think, that happened uh that sort of made small computersnow sort of suitable for business.

(17:12):
And it took off, right?
And we've all seen the effects of that.
uh But DCA built these add-in cards to expand that.
Is it like expanding memory or expanding like additional options that you could do?
Well, what we did, which was cool, uh we built a card called Irma.
And Irma, uh you could plug directly into a 3270 network system from IBM.

(17:40):
So think of banks and insurance companies that use big IBM mainframes.
uh IBM had ways to distribute terminals throughout your building so everyone could work.
And that was all well and good.
But what we did was we designed a board that could plug directly into the system and thesystem, the IBM system, thought it was a terminal.

(18:02):
We also did printers, printer emulation, but it thought it was a terminal.
And then in the IBM PC, then we then wrote software that you could run that would allowyou to run a uh IBM terminal program.
We called it an emulator.
And we came up with cool ways where you could swap back and forth between your Lotus 123spreadsheet and your

(18:24):
IBM screen for your corporate data.
Plus we figured out ways to scrape data off the mainframe and then bring it into Lotus123.
And so it was a real, it took off.
And that was really fun.
So that was my introduction to data communications was how do you, what are all thesethings?
And I mean, I did take some classes at school, so it wasn't like I was totally ignorant,but it was trial by fire, because this was a small company and

(18:54):
was like, here, go do this, you know, and you said, okay, great.
Off you went.
I think entrepreneurs, because I love you both love entrepreneurship.
I love when when you know people that are doing internships or co-ops are given thosetypes of projects like not fill up my coffee cup.
Yeah, but here's a problem.
No one has a solution to go figure it out

(19:15):
Well, I was really fortunate, I think, when I co-opped because I worked for this totallydifferent company.
Instead of chips, which I began to design later, I worked for a company that made themachines that put the chips into the bags, the potato chips.
Oh.
Yeah.
Which was, you you start thinking about it.
That's kind of a cool, that's a lot of automation.
And then that those days it was all analog scales and motors and actuators and stuff.

(19:40):
But they were trying to get into the computer age.
And so they were using
these early microprocessors to try to automate some of their things.
And a lot of these engineers there had worked there for 50 years and they had no, know,the new technology to them was vacuum tubes, right?
So they were like lost.
I shouldn't tell you.
mean, these were great guys.

(20:02):
I really enjoyed and learned a lot from them.
you know, when I said, well, gee, I've taken a class in writing assembler for 8085, Intel8085 processors.
And they said, great here.
You know, so I.
You know, I was writing code as a co-op, which was a lot of fun, you know, and thenbringing the boards up.
so I got, I, like I said earlier on, I was very fortunate to be, you know, in a place inmultiple places, multiple companies where they just let me go and let me figure things out

(20:32):
and to learn and to ride a new wave because it wasn't all that well known.
wasn't like you could go get a PhD in this at that time, right?
It was all.
new and exciting and you know, hey, if you're interested, go, go do it.
That is exciting.
Okay, so you started doing that and then what did you transition to next?
Well, that was also at the time at DCA when uh the world of electronics at that time wasmade up of um these little small uh logic blocks.

(21:04):
Think of you might have a single little chip and it had four AND gates to do the logicalAND function.
Two inputs and a single output.
Or a package of four or six OR gates, OR functions.
That kind of thing.
And for listeners like an and or an or function would be like two things are coming in andif it's put into and chip and they're combined into one.

(21:26):
Right.
And if it's or two things are coming in and then based on the needs of it, it's eithertaking this or this to give the output.
It's so it's Boolean logic.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
And that's how digital design was done.
But we also did analog design, too, in that sort of level at that tiny level.
So you would have boards with hundreds and hundreds of these little chips and you designthe cards to connect them all.

(21:50):
And that was pretty cool.
But right at that time, em the technology was coming out where you could actually designprogrammable chips that would do you know, you could specify what you wanted it to do.
And I took to that like a house fire.
And then we actually got the chance to go design an actual integrated circuit with acompany called VLSI, who was a pioneer in building what they now call ASICs, application

(22:19):
specific integrated circuits.
Because we were a hardware maker and our boards were expensive and yet we needed toincrease volume and lower the cost.
And so that was a way we could do that.
And again, it was just like at the right time,
been working there and they said, who needs to go work?
You know, I'll go work on this chip.
And so I learned to design, uh at that time it was a standard cell.

(22:43):
And so I worked with a standard cell and I was doing work there with the IBM protocol.
And so I'd written software to translate the protocol and to debug what happens on thewire between the mainframe and the terminal.
so I was doing all that work.
and got recruited by a company in Silicon Valley, National Semiconductor, because theyactually made the receiver and transmitter that went on our Irma board.

(23:10):
And so we were using, yeah, and they wanted to take a jump and take a processor, a CPU,pull in their receiver and their transmitter, or as much as they could, and all the other
logic, you know, that used to be hundreds of little chips, and we want to pull them allin.
And so I got recruited by them.
to come work on that for them.

(23:30):
And so that was called the bi-phase communications processor, which was really a lot of
Where did you go live in Silicon Valley?
um I ended up moving to Texas, to Arlington.
They had a big factory there.
National and Texas Instruments had a long-standing partnership.
And I think eventually TI bought National or something.

(23:51):
um So yeah, we were there.
uh But of course, the mothership was in Santa Clara.
And so I spent a lot of time in Santa Clara.
And I did stay there quite a bit.
But my family stayed in Texas.
So, but the BCP was quite a fun thing and uh we built an integrated chip and I got to dothat.

(24:15):
then, uh so I was really in the heart of data communications at that point.
love like your reaction to things when they're like, who wants to do this?
And you're like, I'll do it.
I'll do it.
I'll do it.
Like, that's amazing.
And that's what happened again.
I'd been working on this stuff and for IBM communications, but it seemed to me that thatwas sort of a uh dying world.

(24:38):
The mainframes were sort of fading, it seemed like.
And it seemed like the world was moving forward with these personal computers.
You had a computer on your desk.
And so when there was a group in National in Santa Clara that was talking about doing thisstrange protocol called Ethernet.

(24:58):
You know, I said, well, I want to do that.
And so I, you know, so I started to, I went out to Santa Clara and worked on some of theoriginal 10 megabit ethernet chips and national was a real leader in ethernet.
And that's where I started getting involved with standards because ethernet was one ofthose things that was standardized by the IEEE, the 802.3 was the ethernet spec.

(25:25):
And so that was a collaborative thing that allowed companies to em not be.
any trust issues were put aside to allow companies to work together and share thatintellectual property in a lot of ways.
You could still patent it and you could still own it, but you had to agree to give it to,you know, all.

(25:46):
like maybe like an open source, but still patented, but like what we think of open sourcetoday.
Yeah, I think open source sort of came out of some of that work.
think um obviously that's software, but.
So in other words, competitors could get together and work out a way so things would beinteroperable across manufacturers.
I think the world was sort of still we were coming out of the the antitrust sort of issuesabout IBM system was totally closed and they had to be forced to release the

(26:17):
specifications.
to allow people to build things that were compatible.
Same way with the telephone system, right?
It was the bell system and it was proprietary from the very smallest component up to thebig switches.
And the government forced them to open up and to break open those monopolies.

(26:38):
And then things like interoperability between companies became really an issue.
And plus you had things like now an IBM PC, which IBM...
so unlike them, published the specs.
They gave you the bios, they gave you the schematics, they said, here, go build stuff forit.
Which, know, how, why?
Apple didn't do that.
Apple's ecosystem has been closed.

(27:02):
I mean, it's closed.
I mean, you were able to design things.
You could become a vendor, could, you can write software.
that was a good thing that IBM did that, or do you think it was a bad thing that Appledidn't, or just two different mindsets?
Yeah, good, good and bad.
That's kind of hard.
right.
Well, so I think the legacy, so let's look at it from the legacy.

(27:22):
IBM computers or IBM based PCs are notoriously full of viruses and because the specs arethere and anyone can build anything and sell it.
There's no compatibility requirement unless you force it.
And IBM didn't like hold court and say, okay, you're approved and you're not, but that'swhat Apple did.

(27:43):
Apple would allow people to design things and they encouraged it, but
they had the final say so and they would check and make sure things were compatible.
And so it was much more difficult for rogue players to write things that were, I mean, youcan still do it.
But it was much more difficult.
But then, so the legacy then is the IBM market, the PC market is probably 10 times whatthe Apple market is.

(28:12):
Although Apple's been able to command a premium for their products.
Because they're compatible, I guess.
I mean, I don't know.
But I would say that's sort of the legacy.
Is that good or bad?
Yeah.
I'm an app.
I'm a Mac, Apple, iPhone.
And I will tell you, I've done, you my first computer was an IBM computer, like my firstpersonal one that I had when I went to college, which I will tell you was the greatest

(28:38):
thing because I went to college and I was the only person on my floor in the dorm that hada computer and a printer.
And so I will say that I did get a lot of free beer for
that, like that.
oh And it was ice house back in the day and then I read some of my English papers that Iwrote and I was like I probably should have had lots of fear at that point but it was like
you have a computer?

(28:59):
Okay, I need to write my paper instead of going to library.
I'll do it You know, that was amazing.
But so I have throughout my life.
I have used droid products I have used PCs at whatever but I have to say I'll tell you howI converted to Mac the first time I was at Georgia Tech
And I went back to school at Georgia Tech as a 29 year old single mom.

(29:21):
So this was circa 2004.
And oh I'd never used a Mac before.
And I was in the library.
And at that time, if you needed to print something off or use a computer, there werelines.
And so they had this big long line for all these PCs.
And I'm lazy, Kathleen.

(29:42):
I'm like.
and the line for the Mac had three people in it.
I still remember the moment I got out of the PC line and walked my butt over to the Macline.
And then I still, in my head, I can still picture that computer and walking up to it andgoing, I freaking clue how to use this.

(30:06):
But I how to use it.
And then today people make fun of me.
But I did go.
At one point I tried like a Droid phone and because I love technology and stuff and then Iwas just like the the ability for everything to sync on Apple.
Yeah, it's like for this lazy girl.
It's sign me up, but that's amazing to hear.
But I mean, Apple is quite the story because they nearly went under.

(30:28):
uh Steve Jobs got fired.
mean, it was like the whole thing.
at the time, it seemed like that whole closed model was not a great idea because theycould never really get market share.
uh It seemed like.
um And we actually, at DCA, we built products.
We built like an Irma equivalent for the Mac.
uh

(30:50):
And so I had some experience with Mac, but mainly, you know, I knew all the ins and outsof the IBM BIOS and how you made stuff work and from the interface in the hardware as well
as the software.
So, you know, I was definitely a PC person.
But I scripted when my children got uh old enough to download things they shouldn't likethings that would be like games that would have fire.

(31:18):
Viruses, right.
it was like I was putting out fires in my own home network and PCs because I just couldn'tconvince them not to do this.
so I moved over to Mac and took them with me.
And then it was a lot harder for them to get evil things, which made it work a whole lotbetter.

(31:41):
Yeah, yeah.
That was back in the day.
Well, I don't know.
We didn't allow personal computers in their rooms.
A main area.
Originally it was a playroom when they were teeny, it became sort of a...
shared workspace and the machines were there to have some level of control.

(32:05):
Yeah, which I think is actually would be a good model today for parents and teens.
think, you know.
But now you have a router in your pocket, right?
I mean, the phone is just amazing.
Okay, so you went along this journey and then what came next?
And talk about what, oh I'm really curious.

(32:25):
My grandfather had a lot of patents as well.
And so the companies that he had, got the money and stuff from the patents.
But I think...
I was trying to remember he had his were like submarines and my uncle are gonna my auntand uncle are gonna yell at me because I'm gonna get this wrong like something to do with
one of the bombs or something like that too.

(32:46):
I don't know.
I'm getting it 100 % wrong.
Other than it was cool and and and this patent idea then and the way it was with thecompany.
So how was it coming up and graduating from school and then getting into industry andhaving the opportunity back then to have your name on patents?
What did that look like then versus
what maybe you think it looks like now for people.

(33:07):
The first time I got to even think about patents was at National.
And when we were building some, got tasked with building this group and doing 100 megabitethernet, which was the new thing at time.
And so we actually built the first 100 megabit ethernet repeater.
That was the networking element and some of those things.

(33:28):
And we developed a number of the technologies that made ethernet work really well.
I don't know if you know, but you can, if you have a,
This will get way too technical.
If you have a hundred megabit ethernet port, but you're now plugging it into a gigabitrouter, you don't have to like tell it.
It figures it out.

(33:48):
Well, so that originally was called something we called it NWay.
And so the teams at National that I was with patented that.
And it was because we were in the standards and we needed the, you know, the
cache and hey, we've got patents too, we can contribute.
And so it became a standard, right?
I don't know that they made money specifically on the patent, but it was a way to, uh forthe company to have its bona fides or whatever, know, in the groups.

(34:17):
So yeah, we patented uh this N-Way technology that allowed a 10 megabit at the time,because that was what was ubiquitous, 10 megabit to work with a hundred megabit repeater
or switch.
and they could work that out.
And it's still used today, all the way up to 10 gig now.
They still communicate backwards.
Well, guess there is a limit.

(34:37):
I guess you can't go all the way back, but it's still the way the thing works.
So it was pretty cool.
So that was the first time I was exposed to it.
And that was fun.
when you saw your first patent with your name on it.
It was pretty wild, although I really didn't see that until it takes a long time.
And so I was already gone from national at that point.
OK.
um But no, we did we did 100 megabit Ethernet, and I didn't really get into patents untilI left national to to work in a startup in Atlanta, actually, that wanted to do digital

(35:15):
telephony.
I'm sorry, that's wrong word.
cable telephony.
wanted to take a telephone, your telephone system, and run that over the cable system thatalready came to your house delivering cable TV.
They wanted to deliver phone quality, know, bell quality phone service to your house overthe cable, as opposed to the little twisted pair wires that run parallel on these power

(35:45):
poles.
And I thought that was cool.
thought cable was really interesting at the time and partially because trying to doethernet on this cheap, nasty, twisted pair wire, you we were always thinking, man, if we
had a broadband cable, just think what we could do.
But, you know, it was like, well, that's not the way of the world.

(36:05):
you know, ethernet was baseband.
It was very different.
And so uh I thought, well, you know, this would be really neat.
And so I went to work for this startup.
uh
to try to do and plus my, you to build chips with that and.
And early on, I thought, well, what we really ought to do was we ought to take ethernetand the networking infrastructure, which was growing and just because it was sort of open

(36:34):
source, right?
You could do stuff.
So the IP, the internet protocol was starting to really take off through all sorts ofdifferent companies.
I thought, you know, that's what we really ought to do is run ethernet over the broadbandcable.
What an idea.
How you feel?
Oh, that's a stupid idea.
other people had it too.

(36:55):
And so one of the companies I interfaced with at Eris, that was the startup, was I met thetwo founders of Broadcom and they had an earlier company.
I can't think of the name, but I ended up meeting them and.

(37:17):
The IEEE decided, again, like 802.3, the Ethernet group, they opened a new group forbroadband internet working, networking.
And so I decided I wanted to, that made sense, it connected with Eris, and so I startedworking there, working in that group, volunteering.

(37:39):
And for people who don't know what IEEE is, can you just tell them?
it's the Institute for Electrical and Electronic Engineers.
It's a worldwide organization that provides all sorts of professional services forengineers, electrical engineers in particular, uh but also has this whole standards uh arm

(38:01):
that has been so helpful in this whole world of...
So internet protocol, ethernet, all these things, a lot of them really came out of the...
802 standards body.
So they started a new thing for cable and I ended up writing this paper on how you coulddo this, how you could do ethernet or ethernet concepts over cable.

(38:32):
um And I gave a paper at an IEEE conference.
would have these and Henry and Nick, the two co-founders of Broadcom,
heard me give this paper, was in Boulder, Colorado in 1995 or four, 1994 maybe.
And they heard the paper and decided, you know, we need to hire this person.

(38:54):
they were physical layer people.
They dealt with the actual modulation and forming the waves that travel down the wires,right?
They didn't really care how or what the...
was supposed to carry, we just want to make the wave go down the wire and receive itaccurately at the other end.

(39:16):
I'm making it sound like it's no big deal.
It's huge.
It's huge.
I it's very, very difficult.
And they were brilliant, or they still are.
Thankfully, they're still with us.
just brilliant people.
But that was their area, was the physical layer.
And they were smart.
they understood that if that was ever going to go anywhere, they needed the next layer up,which was the media access control layer, the MAC.

(39:40):
And uh that was kind of my specialty.
And so I had this whole paper on Mac level and all this stuff.
So they said, well, we need to recruit this person.
So they recruited and of course they tried to convince me.
told them no.
And then.
just kept after me.
So I think it took six months for them to convince me to leave my job in Atlanta and go towork for them in California.

(40:07):
And my family wouldn't go, so they stayed in Atlanta.
At this point you had your wife and two kids.
kids, yeah, two kids.
Yeah, a son and a daughter.
And yeah, and so they stayed in Atlanta and I started this back and forth thing to say.
It's so hard whenever I hear about people who do that.
I'm like I have no idea how you do it

(40:27):
It was crazy, but through Hook and by Crook, I was able to open um a design center atGeorgia Tech, actually, because there was a brilliant man at Georgia Tech, John Lim, Dr.
Lim, who, I'm gonna forget all his things, but he had a special appointment both incomputer science and in electrical engineering, and he had spent his career at Bell Labs.

(40:51):
I mean, just a brilliant man and a wonderful man.
Not only was he-
Mark.
your leaders, like your managers that you had throughout this journey, what kind ofleadership management style did you experience from them being young and brilliant and in
this huge transition phase?
Did you have a lot of great leaders and managers?
Did you have some of the older ones that were maybe like jealous of the young peoplecoming up?

(41:14):
Did you have any of those challenges during that phase?
I really didn't.
was again, I was just so fortunate.
had I had mentors and bosses who just said hey go for it.
Just do it.
And you know, it was it was one of those things where it was better to beg forgivenessthan to ask permission.
Then you you did what you spent what?

(41:35):
I see.
Great.
Good idea.
Great job.
I was hoping that was going to be the response because oftentimes I think of these leadersand managers who hold people back.
I'm like, you have no idea the level of innovation, especially a brilliant mind like yoursthat can happen and the world change that can happen if you have this mindset like, okay,
let's go, you know, let's break it and fix it and figure it out.

(41:58):
Well, and that was really not the norm, think, at National.
uh But again, I was very fortunate.
There was the leader of Ethernet, the Ethernet group at National was a man named, I'mgonna get his name wrong, is McKinnon, Edward McKinnon, I believe.
But the uh VLSI design manager that I worked for was Edwin D'Souza.

(42:20):
And he, that was just who he was.
He would empower you and say, go make it happen.
And just, you know.
Don't come back until you do.
uh And he was great.
mean, he was actually in some ways hard to work for, but he was also really, he helped metremendously.
So great leader.

(42:41):
And I think maybe that's sort of the definition I took of leadership, which was findinggood people, smart people, them the tools that they need and the direction and let them go
do it.
And not look over their shoulder constantly.
And National wanted papers about how you're going to do this and what's your performancereview.

(43:03):
And that's all necessary and important.
get that.
But
he kind of fought against that.
You just go do it and we'll figure out how to write your goals later.
Yeah, so that was great.
So Edwin was a great boss.
But I left him to go work at this at Eris and I was only there a short period of time whenI got recruited to go help start Broadcom.

(43:28):
I was a very, very early employee.
They had already started doing an ethernet chip actually, which
I think Henry and Nick thought, well, you know, she's done ethernet and she's doing this,we know it's like two birds with one stone.
We could get one person and they just can work 24 hours a day rather than just 18.

(43:49):
uh They were big on working really hard.
But you know, that was okay.
But that's what Broadcom did is those guys hired just great people and told them to go doit and gave us the tools.
that we um

(44:11):
small was Broadcom at the time when you joined?
Do remember what employee number you were?
I think I was...
Okay, wow.
Yeah.
And we were bootstrapped.
And so we did not do any venture capital.
We did end up getting we took investments from two customers in order to, I guess, givethem some semblance of control or something.

(44:32):
But they weren't huge.
It was Scientific Atlanta and General Instrument, both big players in the cable world.
So we took actually some investment from both of them.
and work with them.
And then we had some good collaboration with them.
But uh other than that, we bootstrapped.
So we were very cash-strapped.

(44:55):
It wasn't like we could go to Wall Street and say, hey, we need this amount of money to godo this.
uh yeah, but we grew rapidly and we went public in 1998.
Wow, what was that experience like for you?
I was crazy.
See, I went my whole conversation with my wife was I'm going to have to work really hard.

(45:19):
Right.
And I'm going to it's going to be really, really hard for me.
And that means it's going to be hard for you.
And we had two small children and.
And we said, you know, maybe, you know, because it was all based on stock compensation.
I had to take a cut and pay and everybody had to take a cut and pay because we didn't havethe money.

(45:39):
And we got generous stock options.
And so
You know, I'm thinking about it.
Oh, gosh, if we could like pay off the house, then maybe I could retire and teach physicsat the high school or we could do something, you be more, we'd have more freedom and I
could be home more.
And, know, it sort of this wager.
Can I hold on for four years until everything vests and hopefully we'll have made it,which was kind of a crazy idea given how many startups fail.

(46:06):
But, you know, I believe in the technology.
And so we ended up doing it.
But it was it was a real risk.
Yeah, yeah, it will pay off.
It did, it did.
Far, far better payoff than I ever imagined at the kitchen table.
Right.
Sketching out, maybe it'll go to this and, you know, we'll make this, you know, thislittle thing.

(46:27):
And so it was, was really great that it did so well.
um But no, seeing the IPO uh was just incredible.
I think we were the biggest IPO in terms of the jump from
offer price to closing price that had been in history at that point, which was totallyobliterated, I think, the next month by Netscape, uh which kind of makes sense.

(46:52):
uh I may have that wrong.
I don't know.
we had some huge honor.
Broadcom did super well.
We had uh really sold people on the potential of the technology.
And so we went public and
just went crazy.

(47:12):
Our stock price went up and we started to buy companies just by printing some more stockor I don't know what we did exactly.
I was the technologist and these guys ran the corporation and pushed it forward and I justkept my head down trying to make cable modems work.
And that was a big deal.
It wasn't just the modem that's at your house, which is the piece everybody sees, but thetechnology at the head end.

(47:38):
to deal with those thousands of modems on a single cable, the one little cable that comesdown your street, right?
There's one cable comes down your street, connects to everybody's house, right?
And so the thing that is able to manage all those modems and get the data to and from themat extremely high rates, which is it is all about.
People had been sending data back and forth on cable.

(48:01):
We didn't invent that.
We came up with a really great way to do it, but...
uh
know, people were already innovating in that space.
And Scientific Atlanta, for instance, they tremendous company, tremendous smart people.
We were able to build the pieces though and build them in silicon and write the softwareto make them work to enable you to do high performance.

(48:23):
I mean, really high performance stuff.
So that was pretty cool.
I'm rambling.
I know I love it.
I'm just sitting here thinking this is so amazing.
Keep going.
You're not rambling.
I'm like picturing this in my head.
You know, I'm remembering when I first got internet in Orlando, Florida, it was like circa1995, you know, where you're just like hearing the dial tone and even like started and

(48:50):
then you go in the kitchen, make a sandwich and then come back and maybe I'm online.
maybe not.
Let me try and send an email and I'm going to go now and make another sandwich.
Yeah.
that's crazy.
No.
Well, so that you talked about switching over to Mac at Georgia Tech.
Yeah.
My first quarter at Georgia Tech, I took the Fortran program programming course as a lotof double E's would do.

(49:16):
And so we did it all on punch cards and we would go to the to the computer center and runthese these punch cards through and I did.
And luckily in that program, those programs were not so huge.
I can remember seeing this woman come bustling around the corner and she must have had, Idon't know how many, but a stack maybe 10 inches thick.

(49:39):
And she runs into somebody, because we were all working late at night, we were all tiredand the cards went everywhere.
And she just burst into tears, poor thing.
I mean, it was like all that work and how do you get them back in order?
It was crazy.
So yeah, we were all picking up cards and trying to help put them together.
But I noticed that
upper was probably graduate students or somebody.

(50:01):
had labs back then with terminals in them.
Not PC, right?
PCs didn't exist in 1979 when I was doing this, but they had rooms where you couldactually sit down and I'd used a terminal at.
So yeah, so I think that's what I need to do.
So when I went home for Christmas, I built a monitor, you know, with a keyboard and amonitor and I got a dial-up modem and this was the kind of modem.

(50:28):
where you actually had to take the handset from the phone and put it in those littlerubber cuffs.
Oh, yes.
Because it actually just squawked and squeaked into the microphone.
I mean, it was like so crazy.
And this, think, was 200 baud maybe.
And then it went to 300 baud.
So a baud would be symbol rate.
So 300 symbols.

(50:49):
Wow.
Were encoded with data.
So it's basically 300 bits, bits per second.
And then of course it would crash.
would hang up or whatever.
So when I got back in the winter, I had my own modem in my terminal and I could work frommy dorm room.

(51:10):
Did anyone bring you beers like they brought me?
They tried.
Yeah, that was the only reason why I had any friends, to be honest.
No, it was a very good move.
But basically, I think the thing about Broadcom was uh we were a semiconductor company andwe had a new model, which was we didn't have the billion dollars it would take to go build

(51:37):
a semiconductor fabrication plant from the ground up, which is what you did back then.
National had these plants and they cost a fortune and they had the army of chemists andphysicists and everybody to run the fabs and
course, the technology kept changing and so you had all this overhead to do these fabs.

(51:58):
Intel, uh the other semiconductor companies, they were based on, they had themanufacturing technology.
But Broadcom was based on the idea that there was just then starting to be some openthird-party silicon manufacturers, in particular um Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing

(52:20):
Corporation, TSMC in Taiwan.
and they had excess capacity that they would sell.
And so our model was we were going to design our own chips and then build them at TSMC andwe don't have to buy a fab.
All we have to do is buy the wafers from TSMC and there were a few others.

(52:41):
But that was kind of the idea, which turned out to be really good.
I mean, really good.
And that's kind of the model today.
TSMC provides, is like a huge provider of silicon for everybody because everybody doesthis now.
But we were one of the early ones to do that.

(53:05):
That was a big thing.
But we knew as a semiconductor maker, we'd seen other companies get to a certain size andget destroyed because all these people who owned fabs and had been building silicon since
it started in the 50s and 60s, they had all these patents on how you build integratedcircuits.

(53:26):
And as soon as you got to a certain point, it was like the mosquito.
Once it gets big enough and is a big enough threat, you swat it.
so they would come and swat you.
And we figured the only way...
Because they were swatted for patent infringement.
Yes, they would come and make you pay exorbitant fee.
Well, I don't know a lot of money and that could ruin your business model, right?

(53:48):
Or put you out of business or whatever.
And so we figured early on that the only way we were going to survive that was to havesome patents we could trade.
And so when you know, the Intel's and nationals of the world came knocking saying, youknow, you're violating our patent.
We go, well, we think you're violating one of our patents too.
How about we make a deal?

(54:08):
I it.
from early on, I mean, we had this big focus on intellectual property and writingdisclosures.
That was huge thing because it takes time and energy and money and we didn't have time orenergy or money.
So it was a big focus and it was a really good thing we did.
So yeah, it was like expected.

(54:29):
When we were building stuff, no one had ever built before.
So it was ripe for patents.
And it also helped you in the standards.
committees.
um
So yeah, we really encouraged employees to file for patents.
And every year we would have this engineering awards banquet thing.

(54:53):
And the highlight was the person who got the most patents that year would get this bigaward and they would honor everybody in their patents.
And we got cash awards for them.
Wow.
Yeah.
I mean, that was like they wanted to motivate us to do the X because it wasn't like yougot time to go do this.
Right.
This was on top of everything else.

(55:13):
on top of the already 12, 14 hour days, we want you to file these patents.
Yeah.
But I mean, they did have legal support, legal folks.
so it was great.
And a lot of my patents ended up coming after that cable.
You know, we patented a lot of stuff for the cable modem.
But then afterwards, my career, I was burned out and I took a little bit of a break.

(55:40):
and then got lured back into Broadcom.
So they claimed I never left, but I did take a sabbatical.
But I came back and went into what they call the CTO's office.
So I was the cable, you know, the cable on the cable side.
And we would do this thing where every three months or so we would take, so we were alltechnologists in different fields.

(56:00):
So Broadcom had acquired companies and grown and we had all these different technologies.
and we would get all these people like me, we'd all go together to a resort someplace or ahotel where we wouldn't have constant interruptions from our staffs.
And we would have patent attorneys in the back and we would just bring, we would get atheme, we'd all know this theme and we would come and spend two days, three days, whatever

(56:25):
it was and just brainstorm and come up with ideas.
And we would come out and people were typing them up in the back as we spoke.
It's fascinating.
As they could.
Yeah.
And so I've got all these I actually had got some patents I could not even rememberbecause we had
just done these things and had some great.
these are your hackathons from back in the day.

(56:45):
hackathon.
Yes, great.
Great thing.
Yeah.
No, we had all kinds of great ideas.
It seemed like um or I should say we thought they were great ideas.
It didn't always turn out to be great ideas.
But we but it was that was probably the highlight of my career.
That's hard to say because I've had a lot of highlights.
But was those times with these people who were really smart, always smarter than me.

(57:09):
But we all had our sort of different area we brought to the table and
I have to say, we talked earlier about imposter syndrome.
That's kind when I got over it.
mean, still it's always with you, I suppose, but like it is still for me in the College ofEngineering, but Broadcom had zillions of PhDs, these brilliant people from all over.

(57:30):
And I graduated from, I got out and never going back.
So I had a reputable degree, but that was it.
But if Georgia Tech ever wants to give us honorary degrees, we will accept them.
you know what's funny?
At Broadcom, it was just assumed that you had a PhD.
I it was just assumed.

(57:50):
And so I got an award one time at the big gala thing, you know, for patents, fortechnology awards.
And the guy put PhD behind my name because he just, he assumed, which, you know, was notaccurate.
I did not earn one.
But if Georgia Tech ever decides they want to give me one, it'd be fine.
I've already got the plaque that says it, so it'd be fine.

(58:12):
That would be fine.
uh
But no, you know, it was really intimidating because these people were like absolutelybrilliant.
And but I realized I had some things I could offer and I had a perspective and it was em Ifound I could share it and.
And it was great for them to do the same.

(58:33):
And we benefited so much from getting the insight from these different perspectives ontechnologies that were all related but were not the same.
Very different than me.
And we had people who were focused on cell phone technology.
And then we had this hard drive um division or focus and these guys made chips that readthe data on and off the platters.

(58:58):
which is very, different than what we, but it was still related.
We were still moving data.
So it was all related, it was just so cool to.
So also thinking about diversity, really what I'm hearing is you had a diverse group ofminds with different skill sets throwing out ideas that could create an integration of

(59:22):
something even better because you're hearing all these different levels of expertise incompletely different areas.
Absolutely.
uh So Broadcom, think it's full points for having a very racially and uh what's the wordfor it?
We had people from all over the world.
ah We had well, we weren't great at hiring women.

(59:43):
um Really, we were awful.
But part of that was, you know, we just haven't encouraged women in STEM.
And so it's getting better, thankfully.
But at that time, they were just very few.
uh
folks and I hired a number of them to be honest because you I just had a bent for that.
um But Broadcom benefited from the fact that US universities were the envy of the worldand the best and the brightest from all over came comes to the United States to study and

(01:00:20):
then if you can get them a green card boy you've got you know these brilliant minds alongwith them you know.
Americans like me, right?
It was we had a mix and that was really cool the mixes of cultures and languages and likein that office of the CTO we had folks from Turkey and from China from Korea from I mean

(01:00:42):
it was it was so cool everywhere um and that I think really helped us
And at this stage, remind us, this is all before you transitioned, right?
Yes, yes.
So did you feel like, you know, during the stage, you're in one way having the time ofyour life, you're like, you're building these amazing things.

(01:01:02):
And then in another way, you're kind of not being able to be your authentic self um inthis area.
Was that a struggle during this phase?
or how much of an impact do you think it had on the way that you led and managed yourteams?
I think it.
uh
Let me say that, so as a child, I knew something was up with me, but I couldn't put wordsto it.

(01:01:30):
So sort of the natural assumption, I think, that I made anyway, was that I must be gay,which was a new thing.
It seemed like, you so as soon as I got to Georgia Tech and I wasn't living at home, youknow, the first thing I did was head across the Fifth Street Bridge into the gay Mecca

(01:01:51):
that was Midtown at the
And so I did that and you know, it was good in a lot of ways for me, but of course theAIDS epidemic was just kicking off and that was terrifying.
And so I realized I wasn't gay.
I mean...
Right.
Something a lot of people don't understand the difference in that.

(01:02:11):
And I think like just just educating people on that because it is.
It yeah, it's definitely not a choice.
uh
So I had to sort of figure that out.
But what that meant was I was hiding again.
I was pretending to be, so I kept these silos of my life where no one from this area couldever interact with people from this area.

(01:02:39):
And so friends at Georgia Tech had no idea.
And people I went to high school with, it was all separate things.
so that mental.
discipline or gymnastics.
mean, having to do that was difficult and it also took a toll on me.

(01:03:01):
I mean, I was...
that it was not right to lie.
And yet I was lying through my teeth in everything I did.
And then as things got more complicated, had to verbally lie.
You I had to make up these stories to keep things straight.
you know, that aided me.

(01:03:25):
But honestly, at one point in Georgia Tech, decided I was scared about the AIDS epidemic.
And also I had a religious background that said this was wrong, uh that I'm wrong to dothis.
And so I can remember I had like a come to Jesus meeting in the parking lot outside of ohthe IEEE building.

(01:03:48):
That was when you could actually still drive near there.
can't get anywhere near there.
So I think this was a parking lot, which is approximately where Klaus is now.
Who knows, but I can remember sitting in that car and just screaming and and I just youcall it a break.
I don't know what you call it.
But I decided that I was I was going down the wrong path and that this was wrong.

(01:04:12):
And I need it needed to straighten up and fly right is what my father would have said.
And that's what I decided to do.
And so I shifted again to this where I thought, okay, what I need to do is go get marriedto a good Catholic girl, because I'm Catholic and my family expects that and get a good

(01:04:32):
job and have 2.1 children.
I just decided that's what I needed to do.
That was the correct, that all this other mental stuff was an aberration and I shouldn'tdo it.
That was what was gonna kill me.
So I decided the alpha male was the way to go and I could do that.

(01:04:58):
And so I was driven to lead and to innovate and to work really hard and play that role andalso be the role of the husband and father.
And honestly, that's my biggest regret in life is that I should.

(01:05:20):
could always look back and say, you wish you'd done it differently.
But I should have said something.
I mean, my poor wife had no idea, no idea.
And so it was not fair at all to her.
So I have a lot of regret that I did that.
But I hid myself.

(01:05:40):
So at that time, I realized I was not gay, but I was a woman.
I didn't...
didn't even really want to accept it.
was like, that's what I kind of came to, but, you know, no, I'm not going to do that.
There's no way.
There's no way, you know, I cannot.

(01:06:02):
This was 1970s.
No, no, no, no, sorry.
This would be 1982.
Yeah, no.
And I just thought there's no possible way.
So I spent, you know, my whole career.
in engineering doing all these great things and having a great time from that perspective,but also running from that.

(01:06:23):
And there were very few outlets that were safe because I could let no one, and so no oneat that point.
New.
Just you.
just me.
And so it was like this inner turmoil of, I don't want to too much detail on that, but itwas it was really hard.
And it was it took a toll on me.

(01:06:43):
uh
Yeah.
Do you think it impacted the way you were a manager and a leader at that time?
Yeah, I guess that was your question and I totally forgot.
Thank you for the redirect.
uh Yeah, it did.
I had this idea of what a manager would do and how I should lead and that.

(01:07:10):
You know, worked okay, but I really think as I sort of absorbed from the people I workedfor, this concept we've talked about, about hiring good people and enabling them and
letting them go do it and then, you know, and that I had some strengths to bring to theparty too and we could all succeed that way.

(01:07:30):
You know, I was never, so I was never the boss that went around saying, you know, hey,it's six o'clock, you know, how come you're packing up, you know?
oh
That was just not the way we worked or I worked.
was people wanted to, so I saw it as a need to set a vision of where we wanted to gotechnically and to be able to communicate that to people and to also communicate it

(01:07:54):
upwards as well as downwards.
And I really think at the end of the day, I call myself a technologist, but I had allthese brilliant people who worked for me, so was.
What I found was my superpower, I think, was to be able to translate, to be able to speakto the engineers and scientists and coders and every, you know, understand what their

(01:08:19):
issues were, what was going on, where the bottlenecks were, you know, be able to speaktheir language, speak the mathematics of this really difficult communications process as
we were doing and inventing, and then go speak to marketing and sales and customers and
This is so special.
I didn't think so.

(01:08:39):
didn't, I didn't, you know, I, but I found, I think that's my real, was my real advantagewas I was able to do that.
Um, so I think that I sort of led by not knowing how to lead.
just sort of did that.
Um, but I think also I was very closed and so I don't know if this helped or not.
I never made good, I shouldn't say never, but it was, it was difficult for me to havefriends in the office.

(01:09:05):
I didn't really relate to people.
I wasn't the person who you invited out for a beer.
I just was cold and closed.
mean, and that was, I think, the effect you were getting at.
I had this persona and I could only let, and I could never let one bleed into the other.
So the best thing for me to do was to just be aloof.
I don't know, just distant.

(01:09:27):
um so I had very few friends.
Not people didn't try.
mean, honestly, people were, you know, friendly, but I just never could connect.
And that was because I guess, because I had, was all in an act, you know, I was pretendingto be something I was not.

(01:09:48):
But when I transitioned years later, that all shifted.
It totally shifted.
And I think I was a better team player and manager and leader once I was...
aware of and could be myself.
which I think that's so powerful.
So what year was it that you transitioned and what can you think of what led up, I thinkwe talked about this before, but what led up to gave you the courage to be able to be your

(01:10:18):
authentic self?
Well, I was totally non-courageous and I was convinced I could not and that I would neverand that I just had to hide.
But then in the 2000s, I guess there was, there were communities that were formed and theinternet allowed you to connect and there you go.

(01:10:41):
For better or for worse, I remember someone blaming me for porn because that was a bigdriver of internet technology.
I'm like, well, know, I guess you're kind of right.
But so it was in the 2000s that I and so then I had some people that I had met andconnected with in some ways it through this shared burden or you know problem and I had

(01:11:05):
some friends who were not actually part of that community but encouraged me uh to figureit out and to that it was okay to be yourself but I was still lying to my family I was
still keeping it all
So to me, no one knew outside of the kind of this new found community.
But I couldn't tell and so much happened in the 2000s to me.

(01:11:35):
All four of our grandparents, my wife and m my parents, they all died within like twoyears.
Oh wow.
Of one another.
thank you.
But you know, they were, they were.
World War II era, the greatest generation, and they were all gone.
And that was a huge thing.
And I had to take over from my parents the responsibility for my younger brother, who wasvery mentally challenged, mentally ill.

(01:12:04):
And my father's dying command to me was, you cannot let Bill end up on the street.
You have to do something.
And so, and we came up with ways to try to approach that, but I had all this stuff goingon and I just knew I could never tell.
And this was just the thing I had to carry around with me forever.

(01:12:24):
And I just couldn't do it.
And so, no, I wasn't courageous.
I was just convinced that I couldn't do it, but it ended up getting too much.
And I nearly succeeded in giving it all up.
know, I'm not proud of it, but I gave up.

(01:12:45):
Then when, I mean, it was just the pressure just from all, I just could not see a way out.
and I didn't call for help, you know, but anyway, I ended up surviving and.
I guess at that point I thought, know, if that didn't kill me, I guess I can.

(01:13:10):
And also the cat was sort of out of the bag because my wife knew something was terribly,terribly wrong.
And so we talked about it.
And then in true to form, we both totally ignored it for like two years.
just, you know, it was okay.
This is what I'm dealing with.

(01:13:32):
Great, how was work?
Want another cup of coffee?
And we went about our lives.
But eventually we started talking and we went to counseling and we tried for like eightyears.
And I had agreed not to transition.
That's what I felt like I, well I was still struggling with, can I do it, should I do it?
What would, but I had agreed not to.

(01:13:53):
um
But eventually, we decided that she decided she needed to divorce me.
And I thought, well, if you're gonna divorce me, I'm going to transition.
So I did, beginning in, guess, 2017, I guess.

(01:14:14):
But I, no, but honestly, since I told her, since all that came out with her in 2010, Iguess.
So the ensuing seven years, was, the way we compromised was I would not transition, but Iwould try to, with her understanding and blessing, as much as she was, you know, it was

(01:14:40):
hard for her, but to allow me to try to go,
connect with groups and people and have outlets to maybe that would allow me oh to live.
And uh so I was already sort of figuring out some of it, but I didn't start reallytransitioning through medically and socially until 2017, 2018.

(01:15:02):
Yeah.
So what would you say?
Well, I didn't know.
What would you say then?
Because I can picture you.
I love that it's storming outside right now.
So I hope we don't lose power.
But I can picture you're a very successful alpha male in a technology world surrounded bya lot of men.

(01:15:24):
then you make so you still where were you working at in 2017 when this happened?
I started consulting.
had left Broadcom in 2008 and started consulting.
So I consulted with a number of the cable companies, Comcast in particular.
uh And then I started to do expert witness work.
Let's talk about the expert witness work.
Because I think that is so cool.

(01:15:46):
So tell us a little bit about that.
Well, I got into it sort of backwards and then I had this consulting thing, but uh thislawyer came looking for the mail, me, uh because one of my patents was involved in this
big lawsuit.
And I don't know, your listeners may not know, but like when you work for a company likeBroadcom and you get all these patents, you know, had a hundred and something patents,

(01:16:09):
they all belong to Broadcom.
They don't belong to me.
I'm the inventor or in almost all of my patents.
uh I was one of.
the named inventor.
be clear, wasn't, it was a lot of these brilliant people.
ah But whatever, I didn't own them, Broadcom did.
So, you know, they were like children that were off doing their thing.

(01:16:30):
I didn't know what was going on.
But someone came, it was part of what was now called DOCSIS 3.0 or channel bonding forcable modems, which was a big step that was taken later.
after the initial cable modems were out and we were making money and it was growing andpeople were getting them at their homes like you, we wanted to increase uh the capacity.

(01:16:51):
And so we started bonding channels together and getting a statistical multiplexing gainmathematically by having multiple channels, primarily because packet sizes are variable
inside the internet protocol.
And that variability and the distribution of the different sizes allowed you to
to get this statistical advantage by bonding.

(01:17:15):
And so I have a couple of patents in that area and had done a lot of simulation work.
And so this lawyer was hired by the cable companies who were being sued over using thispatent along with others uh by, I think I'm still under NDA about it.
So let me just say it was by someone else thought that their patent applied to this andthey...

(01:17:38):
uh
they were suing these people.
So they came looking for me because they did their cursory search, my name popped up, youknow?
And so they came looking for me and I can remember talking to this guy in the parking lot.
And I said, but you know, well, I first took the call, you know, and he asked for my deadname.
And I said, um yes, on the phone.

(01:18:02):
And anyway, so I said to him, well, you know, before we go any further, I've transitionedand
you know, this is the deal.
And I'm sorry, but if that's, you know, gonna be a problem, then he goes, well, I don'tknow, let me let me let me think about it.
He we hung up.
And I thought, well, that's the end of that.
And three months later, he calls me back up and he goes, Are you still like, what is ittransitioned?

(01:18:26):
And I said, Yes.
And you're not gonna untransition, right?
I said, No.
And he said, Well, fine, then, you know, and I got hired to work as a expert.
uh Which made sense because you know, it's hard to not be expert in a patent that you did.
So it was, they felt like that would be strong.
And you know, it was, it was lot of fun.

(01:18:50):
And I got to do that.
Although the first deposition was pretty rough because they were like, now wait a minute,this isn't your name.
How come it says, you know, and the people had to shut it all down.
You know, I think we've established Ms.
Quigley's identity.
You know, we don't need to belabor this point.
So they gave it up, but it was, you know, it was actually kind of tough.

(01:19:11):
So I have to give the law firm and the partner especially who I guess believed in me andgave me that opportunity.
ah Even though it was, I'm sure he took flack for it and we had some troubles, you know,initially, but he gave me, you know, he was a great friend and leader.

(01:19:34):
gave me that opportunity to redefine myself.
uh And that allowed me then, because I was back in the, you I was still in the cableindustry, I had taken a break to transition, because it's horrible.
It's the hardest thing I've ever had to do.
And it's ugly and awkward, and you just don't want anyone to see you.

(01:19:54):
And so it's, uh I had kind of pulled back from everything and...
I was involved in the community and I dropped off the electrical and computer engineeringboard because I...
I wasn't ready.
But getting back into consulting and doing this enabled me or gave me the courage to goback.

(01:20:17):
I went back to the College of Engineering board and said, hey, if you still want me, I'dlove to participate.
we made it was, I went back on other community boards.
I didn't want to give up my life.
I wanted to live my life.
And kudos to another great leader that we both love.
Raheem was amazing.
He was amazing.
had this whole, it was kind of funny, we had this whole scheme about how he was, I wasgonna be off to the side and he was gonna introduce me and when we had everybody gathered

(01:20:44):
at this, and it turns out we all flew on the same plane to the same meeting.
So I'd run into all these people in the Delta lounge before we flew to Panama.
uh you know, so I'd already reconnected with all these people who had already heard,because there was a rumor bill within the engineering community.
So it wasn't as gosh-awful as I feared it would be.

(01:21:07):
But they were totally great.
And Rahim was just fantastic.
I mean, he didn't bat an eye.
was like, well, of course, we'll figure that out.
know, just, of course.
So yeah, he was tremendous.
And the people on the board too.
Because you know, I'm pretty sure I was the first living, breathing trans woman thatanybody had seen.

(01:21:30):
Or maybe not.
But certainly on the board and in most of the
At a prestigious university.
Exactly.
And I have to say those friends and acquaintances stuck with me, right?
Rahim did.
I think I lost every other friend.
Friends I'd known.
You I was never a great friend maker, but I, you know, in the aftermath of the divorce andtransition.

(01:21:57):
people out there, you know, it really tells you who your friends are.
um So those people, a lot of those people abandoned me, but um Georgia Tech did not.
which I could get teary-eyed on that.
With one of the things I want to say about...
Rahim, this is Rahim Baye, who's now the Dean of Engineering at Georgia Tech.

(01:22:19):
And I remember earlier this year with the changes happening in the government and himdoing town halls.
And I remember sitting and just watching him with so much grace in a town hall meeting.
a uh fellow, like a faculty member had a question dealing with gender identity things andhis just watching him and his compassionate response and seeing him get teary eyed and

(01:22:43):
just saying like, we're going to take
care of the people.
And I think that's we at the aging group and this podcast, we're all about getting to knowhumans as humans and loving people for who they are and allowing them.
I mean, the whole thing about the brave, you badass is that we personally believe thateveryone has their own best badass.
And it's the best self they can be in that day.

(01:23:05):
And that we really just want to empower people to be brave enough to reach their badass.
And the more we figure out ways to
educate and create communities and create understanding around these things to understandthat, you know, someone can't be their best self if they can't even be authentically
themselves.
No, that's well put.

(01:23:26):
Yeah, it's a big thing.
But that's been my slight bit of advocacy.
um I've not been great at all that, but I've seen it as my role to be visible in thecommunity.
And so I serve on the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra Board and they were great.
know, they knew me.

(01:23:47):
Yeah, they did.
And it was not as easy as Rahim just not even blinking and saying, of course.
ah But it happened and.
Because you've been, how long have you been a member of the orchestra?
Gosh, I don't know, I guess I've been attending.
Was it singing or playing instruments or both?

(01:24:09):
Neither.
was not a member of the orchestra.
I just have always had a love for classical music and classical singing.
And of course, the shout out to the Atlanta Symphony Chorus is the finest in the world uhof volunteer choruses, right?
The symphony, the musicians, of course, are paid and are, you know, world class.
But Robert Shaw, one of his legacies was developing this Atlanta Symphony Chorus that theyare not paid.

(01:24:36):
And yet they are
world-renowned.
I mean, they're fantastic.
So I always loved, I would love to be able to sing with them, but I'm not skilled enough.
uh But no, I started, you know, attending really regularly when as part of this effort towork together with my ex-wife.

(01:24:57):
we bought a condo in Atlanta.
We were living in North Carolina and we bought a condo on Peachtree Street so I could goto tech meetings and we could walk to the symphony and walk to the Fox.
And that was, you know, it was really a good thing.
We really enjoyed those years together.
So we started, you know, going being patrons and uh about that time.
But I had always thought my brother who I mentioned earlier uh was a music major.

(01:25:23):
He was a classical violist and played
is this the youngest brother?
Yeah, he was extremely talented, almost like a savant.
You know, if he hadn't been, I guess the terms you would call today would be bipolar.
but he was really bad.

(01:25:44):
He would have full blown hallucinations and psychotic breaks.
He was in and out of mental institutions his entire life.
So if he hadn't had that going on, probably would have played for, but he did play atdifferent times for regional symphonies.
Yeah, was extremely talented.
uh And so I always had a connection.

(01:26:07):
And you wanted to do music anyways.
did.
Yeah, but I never got any lessons.
I was the forgotten child, right?
He got classical lessons.
My older sisters got guitar lessons and ballet and all these things and they just forgotto enroll me in anything.
So I taught myself to play guitar by watching the, what was the name of that show?

(01:26:29):
King Flower Biscuit Hour or something.
It was like a show where they would just show rock bands playing late at night and uh
They would zoom in on the guitarist and I would watch their hands and say, I wonder if Ican do that.
And I to play totally by ear.
That is amazing.
Yeah.

(01:26:49):
Right.
Afterwards.
Because we were talking about you had a studio at one place where you had a whole bunch ofguitars.
Yeah, well, and I still do a like a singer songwriter thing and I, you know, I write a lotof my music.
And given away because I have guitarist hands.
My left hand has to have very short nails in my right hand because I play a finger style.

(01:27:12):
I play with all five of my fingers.
I have to have them shaped and done.
So yeah, it's.
You're telling you're a manicurist.
No, no, no, wait.
That's that has to be this length.
Exactly.
haven't.
They luckily I found some people who will work with me, but often they wanted to runscreaming because I'd say, no, no, no, it needs to have this slope and it needs to be

(01:27:34):
this, you know, right.
And this hand.
No, I don't want to go this way.
That's OK.
You know, it was fine.
So, so I just, it just warms my heart so much that you've been able to get in at thisstage in your life.
Because you were how old when you transitioned?
Gosh, 55 some.

(01:27:57):
Okay, okay.
So, but at this stage in your life that you've now been able to continue to do the thingsthat you love to do, but in the way that you want to do them.
Like you still advise at Georgia Tech.
You're still now expert witness on a lot of different things.
That was your first expert witness, but now you do it consulting.
You get to do the symphony.
What are some other things that you feel more comfortable doing now?

(01:28:22):
uh Talking to people.
eh Yeah.
We talked a little bit about how I was very closed.
I was not mean.
I was not, you know, snooty or aloof, I don't think.
But I just didn't connect with people.
And so I think of it.
I had this experience in the supermarket, right?
I would go to the supermarket as a man.

(01:28:44):
And the checkout people just could sense my aura or something.
don't know what, who knows what they could sense, but they just knew not to talk to me.
You know, here it is, you pay and fine, you go.
And I would say, the minimal interaction was what I went for.
Because I tried to be polite, but I knew I was just, no one talked to me.
uh But after I transitioned, I don't know why, people wanna talk to me and I talk toeverybody.

(01:29:10):
I I know all the checkout ladies at the place where I shop and the people in the pharmacyand the people who stock the shelves.
I mean, I know all of them, they know me and.
uh
It's just a totally different world.
It's totally different.
That's amazing.
And honestly, it was when I finally started taking estrogen at a high enough dose.

(01:29:30):
I like to call it my Paul on the road to Damascus moment.
was like, it got to a certain level in my bloodstream.
It took weeks of taking this drug, thinking this is doing nothing.
You know, what is going on?
And then finally, it was like the skies opened and.
All of a sudden the world, like in The Wizard of Oz, went from black and white to color.

(01:29:53):
And this raging noise in my head, which had been there forever, all of a sudden turnedoff.
It's like a whole new world.
And I was still fighting it at that point.
I didn't know.
wanted a reason.
I'm a scientist.
I wanted a reason.
Why is this?

(01:30:14):
Why would I be like this?
And of course, there's no good science on it because it's too small.
now we're, know, anyway, politics today make it even harder to come
We're just going backwards.
We're backwards.
Yeah.
And how does, mean, you know, how do you feel watching what's happening now?
Because I know there are a lot of, and as we talked about it, I have a cousin whostruggled with uh gender identity.

(01:30:41):
And one of the things that was interesting to me when I found out about this cousin was
Then I thought back to childhood and I was like, well now so much makes sense.
Right.
And, and, and she, you know, as a child had also gone a very masculine route and went overthe top masculine and all of these things.
And it's really struggled with mental health challenges, um, entire.

(01:31:06):
as, as I think at this stage is still not transitioned has gone back and forth and all ofthat.
And I just, I wonder, you know, there's a lot of controversy and I don't know the answerto it.
at all.
But there's a lot of controversy right now at what age is an individual old enough to beable to make such a significant decision and change in their life.

(01:31:29):
And I just wonder if there are like ways that we can be more encouraging of families alongthis journey while also maybe allowing because as you talked about how painful it was and
how like all of that.
So
And I'm not framing this question very well, but what are your thoughts on some of thosethings that are happening right now?

(01:31:52):
Well, I think that children know and
Parents know their children and those decisions really need to be made with their doctors.
And I think there's a lot of misinformation that has been spread.

(01:32:12):
It's not something like, you you come home one day from school and say, you know, mom, I'mreally a girl.
And they say, great, let's go put you on hormone blockers and let's go do this.
No, I mean, it takes quite a bit of time with.
therapists and the doctors and figuring it out.
So it's not like it's like this impulse thing and then, next week, no, I don't think I'mthat I'm going to change.

(01:32:37):
This is something it it's got to be deep.
This is what they do when they evaluate the medical professionals.
Is it consistent?
Is it persistent?
Is it you know, does it survive the difficulty of all this over and above just, you know,like someone picking up a fad?
thinking, it's cool to have black nails or something, right?

(01:33:00):
It's very different.
And to portray it as this spur of the moment, flip the switch, and today I want to be agirl, that's just disingenuous.
It's just not true.
So I really think, my opinion for what it's worth, is that parents, doctors, and should beable to listen to the children and make that decision as a family.

(01:33:26):
It's like also the group that actually gets the most gender confirmation surgeries in theUnited States as people under 20 um are uh males who have gynecomastia, right?
It's like, well, of course we're gonna do that because it'll help their self-esteem andthey don't, and why is that?

(01:33:50):
Is it okay for that person to have that surgery but someone else is not?
uh Plus,
precocious puberty has been something in the literature and people.
It's like when if you have like a seven year old uh who starts to show secondary sexcharacteristics and that's pretty tough.
so there have the puberty blockers were developed, I think, to help those children delaythe onset of puberty until a more appropriate age.

(01:34:18):
And then they stop taking them and puberty proceeds normally.
And so taking that same drug,
and applying it to a trans child to help hold off the effects of puberty uh to the age ofmajority, for instance, 18 or something, where they can maybe make a decision about uh
more uh complex medical intervention.

(01:34:42):
But it gives them that choice to not then be affected by uh the effects of testosteroneand estrogen.
They are very, very powerful.
once they have transformed you, it's hard to go back.
I mean, look at me, you know, it's just hard.
It's hard to reverse some of that.
so I think we need to listen to the children and listen to the advice of the professionalsand say, is this persistent?

(01:35:12):
Is it consistent?
You know, this is not a flash in the pan.
And can we delay things?
Not do anything permanent, right?
They can stop and change at any time.
anyway.
I think.
No, no, I love this.
You know, my...
My strong opinion is that the world just needs to be more educated about things and stoptaking little snippets of information out of context and then running with it in the media

(01:35:37):
and turning it into this wildfire because I think they're just people being lost in theprocess of that.
so with that said, one of the things that I've heard is a fear that and I don't know thescience behind this and the hormone endocrinology component of it, but the fear that
taking these blockers then would have such

(01:35:57):
significant negative impact on the growth of that child during that phase in differentareas to a point that even if then at 18 they decided nevermind they still wanted, for
example, to be a male, even then upping the testosterone at that stage would never reversewhatever negative impact had had by not having that throughout those growth phases.

(01:36:22):
Well, I do believe the science is not all there.
We've not investigated it at all, but we do know that puberty blockers are reversible andthere may be some effects.
But the other thing I think is important to point out is that the reason why doctors andparents have gone to to health interventions for children is because it reduces the

(01:36:49):
suicidality rate, right?
It's dramatic.
Some studies from Europe show a 70 % reduction in suicides among this.
And when you don't get it, these kids are very prone.
I don't know all the statistics to be accurately quoting them, but it's dramaticallyhigher among trans kids who do not get help.

(01:37:13):
I know from when I was in residential treatment after my kidnapping and I was in oneprogram, that's when I first met uh my first transgender friends, right?
And so I'm just all about learning and getting to know people.
I would just thoughtfully, not intrusively, but get to know them.

(01:37:34):
all of them, including my cousin, they had all attempted suicide.
All of them.
And thankfully...
We're getting thunder now.
We're really fishing the levels of power here.
We're not blowing in the microphones.
uh This is thunder.
Exactly.
uh every single one of them and thankfully the people for the most part that I've been incontact with, there are some amazing people, just amazing people.

(01:38:01):
They were not successful and then they were able to get treatment and then they were ableto start this journey of transitioning in at the speed they wanted to.
And then at the same point, my one example of a family member who has just been back andforth with that, just seeing that agony is so painful that I'm like, seriously, I would do

(01:38:24):
anything to be able to, in a safe way, help people just, like children just feel heard andunderstood, and maybe like they had a voice.
Yeah, I think you're right on.
uh I think of it this way.
Any kind of medical intervention for anything has trade-offs, right?

(01:38:46):
There are side effects that you manage and you weigh is the benefit better than.
And so I think of it this way.
Do I want to maybe risk some potential hindrance of growth or something?
uh Because again, these drugs have been used and known and we prescribe them.
So it's not like it's experimental.
uh Do I weigh that against the dramatically higher suicide risk?

(01:39:15):
So do I want my child to live or do I want to risk this small risk of what happens if theydecide not to transition?
And what I found also in looking at the data is that the biggest reason for peoplede-transitioning or going back and forth, it's not
I'm not sure.
It's the social.

(01:39:38):
You're right.
They get pushed back and people hate it and they get they lose their jobs.
mean, there's all kinds of negative societal things that happen to people.
Some of the numbers I've seen even that even after doing the totally irreversiblesurgeries like I've done that are horrendous.
The the regret rate.

(01:40:00):
And there is regret.
Right.
For some.
Right.
It's like less than 1%.
And you compare that with uh people who get knee replacement surgeries, who they need,right?
If you don't go get your knee replaced, if you don't really need it.
But the regret rate on knee replacement surgery is like 22%, right?
It's like, okay, yeah, some people regret it, but it's not very many compared to all theseother surgeries, which are quote, elective.

(01:40:24):
I don't know, that makes me mad.
mean, makes me that things have gone, you know, it's what's,
Fascinating is this is history repeating itself.
In Germany in the 30s, there was an institute for sex change, for sex issues like this.
They did all sorts of research on transgender things.

(01:40:50):
And they have this big library.
And one of the things that happened in the rise of the Nazis and in the burning of booksis they burned this place to the ground.
and they burned all the books and all the research got lost and ah the trans people wereone of the ones targeted to be exterminated.

(01:41:13):
Clearly we're not there today, but there's echoes and it makes me really concerned.
Well, I'm glad that we can educate the world just by your story.
Yeah.
And share that.
I want to ask a couple more questions about.
So now that so we talked about your leadership style as a man.

(01:41:33):
Now, can you talk about now the things that you lead?
Do you feel like you lead in a different way or do you feel like you're accepted as aleader in a male dominated industry different now?
I've seen a big difference, both positive and negative.
think because I am much more open and I think emotionally intelligent maybe and able tointeract with people at a better level, I find I can be more collaborative and that

(01:42:07):
it's...
uh
And also being able to relate to people where they are, I think helps uh lead.
I think it helps you lead them if you have some insight and some ability to relate to whothey are.
But I will say, uh I used to be the big tech expert, male with the patents and big leader.

(01:42:28):
And when I spoke in meetings, people listened, right?
People listened.
uh I did find in some of these, uh my role as a consultant,
that even though they were paying me ridiculous fees to come in and be the expert, I couldbe sitting in the room and I would state this theory or way to approach the case or idea

(01:42:50):
and it would just be dismissed.
I can remember thinking about this and looking around the room and it wasn't until one ofthe men sort of echoed that, did it like, that's a great idea.
Let's go do that.
m
I love this example!
But it was fascinating because I mean, was so clearly, I can remember being in a room andsaying, no, this is how this works.
And they all go, okay.

(01:43:13):
And you had to learn to be different.
I found I had to learn uh kind of a different way to influence those kind of meetings.
So tell me what you did because being a woman my whole life, right?
And being a leader and being in rooms and having some great ideas that are completelydismissed.
And then actually, I think it was my friend Lisa and I recently talked about this, abouthow now how we are as leaders is that if we see that happening in a room and then we'll

(01:43:42):
pause and say, wait, she just said the exact same thing.
Like, why did we dismiss it because it came out of her?
But now it's suddenly a great idea.
right.
Well, what I kind of learned to do was to phrase my, you the next time I got the chance, Iwould phrase my idea as being this other man's idea.

(01:44:05):
You know, I would have built on what Joe is saying.
I think he really has a point here.
We could do, you know, because these are the reasons that this is such a great idea.
And so it brings people in as opposed to...
Honestly, my style before was, no, listen, I know how this works.
This is the way this works.
And people would listen.
Well, you have to now kind of work on the collaboration by making people accept things andhave them buy, have some buy-in.

(01:44:32):
And I actually, don't think that's a bad thing.
And I think that's great advice for any man or woman or whatnot to be, not to do in a fakeway, but I think oftentimes our ideas are building off.
And I know myself as a leader, I had this phase when we were building Florence Healthcare.
And as I love sometimes being a COO and then you also have challenges because you'reconstant context switching.

(01:44:58):
And I found out by peer reviews and stuff, I love feedback.
And so I'm like, just tell me the feedback.
And I got the feedback and the feedback was, okay, Angela, when you go into a room in justdecision mode and I know what to do and whatnot, then you're just a bitch.
And you're not bringing other people in and you're not listening and you're doing thatinitial approach.

(01:45:22):
Like, well, I'm the expert, I know this stuff, this is what we're gonna do, let's do it.
Versus, and then after I got that feedback, I was like, well, I don't wanna be a bitch.
And so I learned to come in and ask more questions.
Like, okay, what are your thoughts on this?
and then help that.
I think that's a really healthy thing to do as long as it's not fake, But because thenyou're getting people that you're all in it together and it's like this team thing versus

(01:45:50):
this dictatorship approach.
But I think there's a fundamental uh shift that has to happen is that if you are out, ifyour motivation ultimately is to get credit, you know, it's your idea and you want to be,
you know, that makes it hard.
But if you're not so worried about who gets the credit, let's just solve the problem.

(01:46:11):
Then it's easier to bring other people in and kind of influence things by, by, you know,building on what other people say.
And I think that makes teams stronger.
And it makes people have more buy-in, as you said.
But I think one thing I can't let go, though, is you said, you know, I'd come across as abitch.
Well, if you were a man, you would just be assertive.

(01:46:31):
Exactly.
So that sucks.
you know, we can't fix that overnight.
And I think, you know, it seems like there's progress.
And I will say the the lawyers and the teams that I work with, it sometimes it just took alittle time to to gain the trust, too, of of the group.
and that they would, so you could collaborate in ways that were less manipulative or Idon't know, but, and less dismissive.

(01:47:02):
I came out of some meetings feeling like I had been dismissed.
I had to think, well, now wait a minute, they're paying me to be the expert.
Why are they not listening to me?
And that was frustrating.
eh And they learned, I learned, and we all sort of got better at it.
I love this.
Okay, how would you say your idea?

(01:47:23):
you know, I love conflict because I believe resolving conflict in a healthy way.
And I'm saying I love healthy conflict.
And I think so many people are just conflict diverse.
And so I have this
desire.
One day I want to write a book on conflict resolution.
And so but I wonder with you when you now look at what is your methodology on how youresolve conflict now today in 2025.

(01:47:51):
I'm one of those conflict diverse people, uh honestly.
So I do avoid conflict in terms of interpersonal things, which is a big part of business.
And I think that's why I was not the CEO.
I was the technologist because I really don't have a lot of strength there.
ah I do think I'm more collaborative and willing to work to a solution through discussion.

(01:48:16):
uh But the places where I did have
conflict and that I loved was in a technical realm.
If we were going to debate the merits of one approach over the other, I'd go on that allday.
That's not a problem.
In fact, literally, uh there was a person in the industry, in the cable industry, weinitially were partners and worked on some early stuff together, cable models from a

(01:48:43):
different company.
Broadcom was working with another big networking company and I got to know this man, justa brilliant man.
And so we worked together for a couple of years and then our sort of our strategies andour corporate directions sort of shifted to became sort of adversaries.
So I spent the whole 2000, you know, the later part of my career as this in the office ofthe CTO writing, doing papers and analysis and then trying to drive consensus in the

(01:49:11):
industry, which I could do, you know, technically I could go drive that, but it often camedown to me and this other person.
having these big discussions and these forums on uh big conferences and on the panel,they'd have us all there and it became a fight between us.
This tech this way versus this way and how to...

(01:49:34):
But actually through all of that, we still remained friends.
And after I transitioned, I connected with him later and...
He was just a fabulous and a brilliant guy.
But uh we fought all across the world at different conferences about the direction ofwhere the cable industry should go.
uh

(01:49:56):
So I don't know, does that mean I...
still became friends.
And I think that's what's powerful.
think that maybe even having people understand that sometimes in certain situationsconflict resolution is also being willing to speak up when you're really an expert in
something and a compassionate maybe not compassionate but I would say a compassionate waybut then also listen more in some areas where you're not an expert in.

(01:50:21):
Yeah, I think you're right.
I do think one thing that benefited uh John and I was that we both were willing to look atthe other's idea and step back and say, you know, that is actually a better.
That's powerful.
That right there is powerful.
I know sometimes it well, I feel like I had to do it more than he did because he was sosmart and really quite an expert.

(01:50:47):
uh But anyway, yeah, so, you know, we have DOCSIS 3.0 is like we fought about that foryears, but uh it worked.
It worked great.
They sold zillions of modems.
I mean, so, you know, we worked it out and it has elements of both in it.
And and there were other people too.
It wasn't just John and I.

(01:51:08):
There were other really
capable people and they were coming at it from different perspectives.
And I think we ended up with a really good solution.
So going back to the badass leader piece, in your mind, when you think of leaders, what doyou think defines a badass leader versus a manager or a leader?

(01:51:28):
What would you say a badass leader is in your perspective?
Well, I would say just starting from the manager side, management, think, is the art ofjuggling all the balls you're given, whether that's paperwork and interfacing with other
departments and HR and having to write the reports and do reviews and all.

(01:51:51):
It's critical skills, critical things to do.
But I think the difference between a manager and a leader is someone who has the courageor drive to
have a vision and to be able to communicate that and to get people to come along withthat.
ah And like we just talked about, to adjust that.

(01:52:13):
You have an overall vision, but it doesn't have to be the way you think it's gotta beimplemented.
Let's bring people and smart people in, let them come up with the better solution.
ah I think that's the leader who's able to get the best out of people and to trust themwhen they say this is a
This is the approach.

(01:52:35):
I don't know, clearly you need managers.
And then there's probably a place for managers who don't have to lead quite so much.
But I think in order to really run these sort of innovator groups, you have to be able tolet people go with it.
then, so they have buy-in and they feel like at the end of the day, they've contributed.

(01:52:56):
uh And so you can't be the one who gets all the credit.
I think that the last piece you just said really also then elevates it to the badassleader part as well.
It's that if we go back to the part where you were talking about the way you transitionedyour communication skills when you were bringing other people along and you made the

(01:53:22):
comment then that if you're the type of person who wants to get the credit for it, this isnot the approach.
I think a badass leader in that instance going back what you said is someone who's reallyinterested in solving problems and creating a vision and bringing everyone around and not
the person that's like, need to get the credit for.
Yeah, interesting.
I think you're right.

(01:53:44):
But also it's easier to feel like you don't have to have the credit if you aren't feelingconstantly threatened in your job.
And I think so many women especially feel like they have got to be the one who gets thecredit because my God, I'm not gonna get it any other way, right?
And so I think it's a real dilemma.

(01:54:06):
Well, I also think there's nothing wrong with taking credit when you should take creditbecause sometimes I also see that women sometimes are afraid to take the credit for
something when they should and then they get bypassed on promotions and all of these typesof things because it's not.
So there's an art, maybe that's a feature book, the art of when to take credit.

(01:54:27):
I love that.
Okay, so let's see.
There are a couple of other things I wanted to make sure that we covered really quick.
going back to equity.
advocacy and inclusion, you those new cuss words that we have in our society today.
You've served on multiple boards and advised major institutions we've talked about.
What do you think the most powerful thing leadership can do today to build truly inclusiveorganizations?

(01:54:54):
You mean, sidestepping legal pressure to not do that?
Gosh.
I think it's looking for talent in more than just the standard place, right?
Where you already have an institution that is, that's not the way to say that.

(01:55:19):
I think today we need to find the best and the brightest and encourage STEM and ah womenand people of color to get the opportunities to be competitive and then let them run with
it, right?
It's not, it's not a, so I think we need to be proactive in building up those skills inthose groups and being sure we're not.

(01:55:45):
having what's it called?
Bias that you don't realize you have.
Conscious bias, thank you.
You we need to be intentional about going to those places and getting those kind ofcandidates.
I do think it's, you know, a meritocracy is great, but we need to be aware that diverseopinions, I think, really help at the end of the And that whole collaboration piece we've

(01:56:12):
been talking about so much.
think when you have people coming at it from different areas and different backgrounds,and that applies from a technology perspective for sure, but I think it also applies from
a socioeconomic and ethnic and, you know, there's a lot of different perspectives in theworld, and I think we benefit from having those.
Absolutely.
You know, at the table.

(01:56:32):
I think that was one of my big takeaways when I was being mentored about my approach tocome in and just make a decision is I was also like we made whatever we built would have
probably been good.
But the moment I instead drew everyone else in the room and got them to speak up and giveideas, that solution was great.

(01:56:53):
So when you talk about building a world, like maybe we can build some situations and somesystems and things that are good.
But if we really want to build something great,
then we have to have those pieces of the puzzle.
I agree.
I love that.
love that.
Okay.
So can you tell us if you could go back, what advice would you give your younger selfabout leadership and courage?

(01:57:17):
That's a hard question.
God.
Find some courage.
mean, that's what I needed was some courage to actually.
speak my truth and I didn't.
So I think I would, well, you I don't know.
That's the clip.
First answer is go back and say, wake up.

(01:57:40):
Do the right thing.
Tell people, speak to people, let people know what's going on.
Honestly, back in those days, I don't know that that even could have happened.
But I do think in general, that's what I would want to do, is to go back and say, look, bemore courageous.
Try, give people the benefit of the doubt to understand.

(01:58:01):
I was just afraid people would not understand that there was just no way and I just couldnot even consider talking about some of the things that were going on in my head.
And I think that was wrong.
I also should have gone and gotten uh help from therapists earlier, but I didn't want totell a therapist.

(01:58:22):
mean, I didn't want to tell anybody.
Exactly.
So, but I eventually did, thankfully.
really helped me.
I think that I've had the opportunity to speak with several parents who've lost theirchildren to suicide.
And a resounding comment they often make is if they could go back and tell themselvessomething would be to just remember love first and compassion first and listen to

(01:58:54):
understand.
And I've never heard I've not personally met someone and I've met, unfortunately,
quite a few of these parents, and not a single one of them says that they're happy theyshut down whatever challenge that their child had.
Not a single one has said that if they could go back that they would do that again.
wow, that's powerful.

(01:59:19):
I mean, for better or for worse, haven't interacted with a lot of parents who've lostchildren.
mean, better or worse, that would always be worse.
But I mean, I've not had that experience.
I have spoken to some parents who have transgender children.
And I can remember these parents, uh were in a very conservative church and in a very...

(01:59:43):
It was very socially difficult.
This was also a number of years ago.
But they listened to the child.
And at first they were like, this is crazy, no way.
But eventually, I remember the mother's telling me, do I want to put up with, do I want togo through this or do I want a dead child?
When she read the statistics, she said, well, I want my child to live and this is too higha risk.

(02:00:09):
I have got to do something.
And they ended up having to leave their church and they were shunned from there, but theystuck by their child and listened.
think that was so powerful.
It's just amazing to see.
I love that.
I love that.
Okay, can you think of any book or podcast or something that's really made a huge impacton your life?

(02:00:32):
oh
Early on, I read a book by Dr.
Earhart, what was her name?
Virginia Earhart.
she was a therapist who dealt with transgender patients back, she started doing this yearsand years and years ago, back before it was cool, right?

(02:00:54):
And she wrote this book, and I'm not gonna get the name right, but you could look forVirginia Earhart.
but she interviewed these spouses of the trans people and got their perspective and theeffects on them.
And I found that to be, well, a big reason why I was so reluctant to do things until itnearly killed me, but.

(02:01:27):
think it's an important thing to understand the impacts on your family and try to findways to mitigate that.
of that.
Okay, so first off, how can listeners connect with you if they want to connect with you?
Head over heels, I think was the name of it.
Is the name of the book?
I think so.
Head Over Heels.
Okay.
Well, the magical Katie will try and find it.

(02:01:49):
And if that's it, she'll put it in the show notes, but she'll try and find it, put it inthe show notes.
So Jennifer Boyland has written a number of excellent books about her transition.
She was a professor at a Northeastern liberal arts college and she's an excellent writerand those are well worth reading I think.

(02:02:09):
But how would they get in touch with me?
um
I think the easiest way is my uh Gmail account, KathleenQuigley at gmail.com.
uh My consulting is KathleenQuigley at uh Swiftwater Consulting LLC, and that works too.
So we'll include those in the show notes for people that em want to be em respectful andalso get to know and learn and stuff like that.

(02:02:38):
So we will do that.
Okay.
It's a requirement.
This podcast.
I hope you remembered your motivation.
It's a requirement.
This podcast that everyone share their favorite motivational quote, Kathleen, what isyours?
My favorite quote is that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable frommagic.
And that is Arthur C.
Clarke, amazingly prescient writer.

(02:03:01):
I mean, he's credited with geosynchronous satellites.
I mean, he's just a brilliant man and a fabulous author.
But I think that's an incredibly important idea today because of the need for STEMeducation.
We are just a hair's breadth away from society falling apart if we lose the ability to fixthe things that we rely on, right?

(02:03:25):
mean, that's a dumb way to say that, I guess.
technology is.
I think that's great.
think the fear of losing basic research and some of the stuff that are today, notunderstanding how those basic research things then go into like one of the examples I can
think of.
Are you familiar with that?

(02:03:45):
I think it's called the honeybee algorithm.
Maybe.
oh
if you would be familiar with it because it is, know, Thomas Seeley and some of thesepeople who've spent their whole life focused on honeybees and their foraging behaviors.
And so then he worked with some people at Georgia Tech and they ended up getting a GoldenGoose Award.

(02:04:05):
Oh, really?
Yeah.
And it was for this algorithm and they use it in networking, computer networking, too,because they use the way that honeybees do foraging and communicate with foraging.
And for listeners, if I don't get this perfectly right, you can still Google it and getthe full thing.
But this is the and so also when you think about those types of, you know, society rightnow, I cringe when I hear the news and hear what people think about basic research.

(02:04:32):
And this is stupid and it's like, OK, you don't understand how these basic building blocksbuild into something that's magical.
Well, I also think we're at a sort of a place in our society where we don't value scienceand math and people who excel in that.

(02:04:55):
value athletes and we value fashion influencers and those are great.
And I love athletics and fashion too.
But we need to value the people who
find math as their thing, you know, and calling them nerds and that doesn't help anybody.

(02:05:16):
uh But I do think that this applies to other areas too.
I think part of our problem in our democracy is that our founding fathers were very firmon this.
We needed an educated populace who knew what democracy is, how it works, how it's tofunction.
What are your rights?

(02:05:37):
How does the government that we have today work?
If you don't know those things, it's very easy for someone to tell you it's different.
You have no, you don't know.
And so I think we need to be sure we educate our kids on civics and so that they know thatthere are three branches of government.
They are co-equal.
They all are purposefully set to balance the power between so there isn't a king or thereisn't, you know.

(02:06:04):
Yeah, a dictator.
And I fear that we don't have enough of that.
So let's see, so some summaries are A, we believe in basic research, we believe in STEM,we believe in encouraging people from all walks of life and ethnicities and areas and
everything you can imagine to participate in STEM and to fund it.

(02:06:26):
And we believe in having healthy conflict about speaking for ourselves, about bringingother people in and not being too worried all the time about getting the credit.
But I think, you one of the other things I was thinking about the credit piece is,
a badass leader too then turns around and makes sure that the correct person gets thecredit that it should.

(02:06:46):
And I think that's really important.
So we've talked about that.
We've talked about putting love first and getting to know humans first.
And when you can be your authentic self, you can have fun conversations at the grocerystore and you can meet people and you can figure out the friends that are really the true
friends that are going to have an impact on your life.
So we'd encourage people to also learn how to

(02:07:07):
do all of those things and be those two things because my life is so much better.
The more people that I learn from different backgrounds and I hear of different stories.
just, that is the thing that I love.
This is not my podcast, it's Katie's and my podcast.
We are a joint in this and I just get the pleasure of talking to amazing people and it ismy joy because I learn something every single time.

(02:07:29):
So thank you for bringing the badass into this podcast.
I am very grateful.
Well thank you
Absolutely.
Thanks for joining me for today's episode of the Badass Leaders Podcast.
To hear more interviews with industry experts and learn how to grow your career andleadership potential, be sure to like, subscribe, and turn on notifications to ensure you

(02:07:54):
do not miss future episodes.
This podcast is a production of The AGN Group.
To learn more about The AGN Group, visit our website at theagngroup.com.
There, you can discover more about our services, which include hosting workshops,management consulting,
brand strategy, keynote speaking, and more.

(02:08:16):
Follow us on all social media channels shown on the screen and displayed in the shownotes.
And until next week, be brave and be badass.

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