Jacob Karnes: Leadership Lessons that Stick

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Your mission's what you do.
Your culture's who you are.
I'll say for an individual, your character's who you are.
And your brand is how you proceed.
And there's a big disconnect a lot of times between like, well here's who I am, but theysee me as this.
And I would argue that's on you.
You have the opportunity to build your own brand.

(00:21):
Welcome back to the Badass Leaders podcast.
Today we have another special guest, Jacob Karnes, a business coach and expert in talentdevelopment.
As the founder of Waves Business Coaching, Jacob helps business owners create highperforming teams that drive success.
He's also the author of Master Your First Job, a guide for young professionals looking toaccelerate their careers.

(00:48):
From leadership strategies to retaining top
talent, Jacob is here to share insights that can transform your business.
Okay, if you're new to the podcast, welcome.
We're super grateful that you decided to spend time with us today and we cannot wait tolearn and grow with you.
So before you forget, take a moment to click that subscribe button to ensure you stayconnected with the Badass Leaders community.

(01:13):
Okay, are you ready?
Let's do it.
So join me, Angela Gilnell, on today's episode of the Badass Leaders
podcast where I'm joined each week by industry experts for intimate and eye-openingdiscussions about the challenges and joys facing the leaders of today.
Listen in and get ready to scale your company, grow your brand, and unlock your fullbadass potential.

(01:44):
Let's do it.
first off, welcome to the Badass Leaders podcast.
Thank you.
for coming to downtown Atlanta on a night in traffic.
You know, I got like three-fourths of the way here in like 15 minutes I mean can I saw andthen you know the last six miles was just It's Atlanta.

(02:06):
It's 45 minutes.
You know what great audiobook on the way here.
I'm listening to Harry Potter for the first time
I was going to ask what's on your audiobook playlist.
I hadn't read fiction since like school.
Okay.
in the last two years I read a lot of fiction and I was like I've never read Harry Potter.
I love this.
is great.
So are you in the very first Harry Potter book?

(02:28):
So I don't know what order.
Five of seven.
So we're over halfway done.
This one's not as good as the last one.
ah That's, mean, like Harry, think it's hard for me to say my favorite character is anyoneother than the main character.
I find myself doing that with most movies, books.

(02:49):
It's just like, yeah, it's the hero.
You know, it's the main character.
That's who it is.
Other than him.
ah
Dobby's really interesting in the books.
He is such a minor character in the movies.
And he does so much more in the books that I had no idea about.
Yeah, yeah, which is why listeners are gonna do a little teaser here because we are goingto Jacob first off.

(03:10):
I'm gonna ask you to introduce yourself in a second.
We just like dug right in We are going to talk about Jacob's book master of your first joband So just because you listen this podcast does not mean that you're off the hook of
reading it So make sure that you actually go on Amazon purchase it and read it as well.
You can see I've already flagged some I it so clearly it did not suck

(03:34):
It was.
glad, thank goodness, thank goodness.
uh
count.
I'm at zero so far.
We'll see if that lasts.
Well, Jacob, why don't you introduce yourself and tell us why you're here today?
Yeah, I'm Jacob.

(03:55):
Goodness, I have a family of almost four.
We have a baby due in July.
Beautiful wife, Addy, beautiful daughter, Jamie.
Have a son due in July.
We have an Australian shepherd.
He's great.
I'm a business coach.
I'm an author.
I love to help business leaders build their dream team.
And so I worked for Chick-fil-A for 10 years.
So grateful for the experience I have with Chick-fil-A.

(04:16):
I like I got to work for one of the best brands, especially when it comes to leadershipdevelopment in the world.
um I had a friend on LinkedIn say the other day that the best product Chick-fil-A makes isleaders.
True.
I'm like, yeah, nail on the head.
like copy paste, I'll give you credit if you want.
Randy Gravitt, he's great.
And yeah, so I'm so grateful for that experience.

(04:37):
In June of 23, I started my, excuse me, no, June 23, I started my own business, doingbusiness coaching and kind of doing what I learned at Chick-fil-A.
I love to help other business owners and business leaders who have a team get the most outof their talent.
and bring the best out of their people.
And the world is starred for good leaders.
I really do believe that.
It is.

(04:58):
And I'm like, that's why you have this podcast.
That's why I my book.
That's why I my business is I want to build better leaders because better leaders makebetter teams.
And so honestly, it's, know, the pitch is I want to help you build your dream team, butreally work with the leader one on one because 90 % of the time it really is on them.
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.

(05:18):
And so the thing that is kind of comical about everything you just said, because I've readthe book, I know that Chick-fil-A was not the job that you initially wanted when you your
first job.
So tell us a little bit about that.
So I grew up in Metro Atlanta, everyone's first job was Chick-fil-A.
And I didn't want to be a part of it.

(05:40):
I felt like it was a little cultish.
Kind of is.
I did it, so I get it.
oh And I played golf in high school.
I played golf today.
uh Still love golf.
And I was like, you know what?
I'm going to work for a golf course.
It'd be an easy job.
Wash some golf carts.
get tips from people playing golf.
You know, I in a fluid sport.

(06:00):
This will be so easy and great.
I applied to two golf courses and they didn't call me back.
Didn't even get a call back.
Played a team in high school.
One of the courses I applied to was like our home course.
Like I knew the people there didn't even get a call back.
And you know, I'm 16.
My parents, I say, bought me a car.
I was paying them for the car and got to make some money.

(06:21):
Right.
And applied to Chick-fil-A and got a call back within 24 hours.
and had interviewed within three or four days.
Within two weeks, I was starting at Chick-fil-A, reluctantly.
And I stayed there for 10 years.
So, love Chick-fil-A.
It's not the job I wanted, was the job I needed.
Chapter one, it was an unexpected opportunity that we took advantage of.

(06:45):
So, I'm super grateful.
Yeah.
And I think one of the things that I was laughing about reading this in the book was whenyou, I think it was, can't, I'm not going to get this story correct, but the good thing is
I know the resident author and he'll, he'll fix me.
He'll, he'll get all of my references correct.
But it was something like, I'm not sure if you were at working in the front of the houseand then they moved you to the back of the house and you were like, no, I don't want to do

(07:10):
that.
Cause it's not going to help me grow as a leader.
Tell us a little bit of that.
so like front of house if you're not familiar with, you know, food service industry,everything in front of the door, everything you see is front of the house and that's where
I worked.
And I think when you think about Chick-fil-A, you think about the awesome front of houseexperience, whether it's in the drive through the dining room and like the kind employees,
like that's also the front of house.

(07:31):
so even within the restaurant, I looked at that as like, well, that's the area for likethe good people.
What?
uh
Like the bad people we get in the kitchen, they're not nice enough, so they're in the backand behind the door.
We keep them hidden.
In about like six months into my journey, I've always been extremely driven.
And I'm like, I'm going to be a team leader, kind of like our first promotion by a year,because I'd heard someone else did it and right out of year.

(07:58):
Yeah, game on.
That's going to be me.
I'm going to work really hard.
Took a lot of pride in that and thought I had done everything well to that point.
There was a talent gap in the back and they asked me to move to the back.
And I'm like, that's for the bad people.
I don't know.
what?
What are you not missing about how amazing I am?
could have gone to someone else about this, not me.
And so I reluctantly took a job in the back.

(08:20):
And actually, my second promotion in the restaurant was because of the experience I got inthe back.
So my first year at Chick-fil-A was six months up front and six months in the back.
And like I guess at the 18 month, two year mark, my second promotion actually needed bothexperiences in order to be good for the role of store supervisor, is what we called it.
And so again, something that I didn't want to do ended up being a really, really greatthing.

(08:43):
for my second promotion and moving up quickly, which is a goal of mine and not just forthe title, but I really enjoyed the influence.
And again, really driven, really competitive, and I liked getting results.
That was something I learned early on at Chick-fil-A.
This is interesting.
So I have actually been behind the scenes at many Chick-fil-A's because my previouscompany, we were doing 3D scanning and working on a project with Chick-fil-A.

(09:07):
And so one of the things that I love about a secret sauce that Chick-fil-A has is wherethey have the instructions on what you should do, like make eye contact, make a
connection, do these things.
And it's like, okay, this is if you're building a team and you're building anorganization, why not put the map for
what success is and all the places they're gonna see around it as well.

(09:32):
Yes.
Habits, James Clear, Make It Obvious.
Yes.
It Obvious.
Sidekicks are what those are called.
Little stickers that are.
Okay, now I learned a new language today.
Sidekick.
My friend Alex Estes came up with them worked with him at the corporate office when I methim and found out that he had come up with sidekicks having spent seven years in the
restaurant I told him he was like a god.

(09:54):
Yeah, I was like I was like Alex You know, I was like this is the single greatest trainingaid that we've ever had in this company and it's just so cool to be a part of an
organization like that where he's just one of a lot of people at the corporate office andhe just happened to have this idea that I think to your point made it obvious for
300,000 team members Chick-fil-A has across the world now, how to do their job well.

(10:15):
Make it obvious that that's an awesome example of Chick-fil-A's training and developmentand again, making it easy for team members to do their job.
Yeah, exactly.
And there's a difference because listeners, well, a couple of things.
One, if you listen to several episodes, you know, I talk a lot about the fact that I hatewhen companies create these values and just put them on a wall and it is it and then no

(10:41):
one follows them.
The difference about what this is that I loved when I saw them is, of course, now alsowhen I go, I know what they say.
that's right.
I'm like, you just made a connection, didn't you?
Yeah, well done.
Or or when I see someone, know someone who's not doing what they're supposed to do and Ikind of want to go up to them and be like, know You're gonna get caught on your cell

(11:02):
phone.
You're gonna lose your job
Once you get on the inside, it's so tough to not, I cannot get a Chick-fil-A and have anormal experience anymore.
I'm always watching with my training eye.
Which, you know, it's good and bad, I guess.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, there are pros and cons to all of this.
Okay, so let's talk about, I want to talk first about the book and then we're going to getinto your leadership coaching that you do.

(11:27):
I am a big believer in coaches.
I think most great coach...
I love this.
Tongue tied.
Words are hard, Angela.
Let's talk about this.
great coaches also have coaches, right?
I have a coach.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
But let's talk about one of the things that I really loved in the front of your book isthis video where you have a free video summary of who this book was for.

(11:52):
So tell me about what it, because I was like, I love that it is clear who you wrote.
Oh.
I love that it is clear you wrote this book to help others based off of this.
So tell me what inspired you to do that.
I'll go back to James Clear.
There's a few things in my book that I stole from a lot of different, I've read a lot ofleadership books and so I'm reading Atomic Habits for the first time in like, think 2020,

(12:15):
think it came out in 2019.
And at the end of each chapter, he just has like a chapter summary with bullet points.
And I'm like, this is kind of cheating because I feel like you can kind of read thechapter summaries and not read the book.
And you can get the book out just from the chapter summaries.
And I'm like, man, but but who cares because they've already bought the book.
I'm like, he's following his own rule.

(12:37):
He's making it obvious.
He's trying to build a habit.
And so when I wrote the book, I wanted to make it really obvious and really easy to havetakeaways and actually take action because books are nice.
I myself have read plenty of books that I'm like, yeah, I read that.
I didn't do anything as a result.
And so again, for this audience, it was really important to me to actually make an impactbecause I just saw the value in, I mean, it took me 10 years to learn the lesson in the

(13:04):
book.
And I'm like, man, if people can figure this out at 16, 17, 22 out of college, they'regonna get such a big head start.
So how can I make it easy for them?
And so I have chapter summaries in my book, and the video summary is a really cool way tojust like, what if I can take the book and in 15 minutes be like, you know what, watch
this 15 minute video.
Maybe you read the book, you put it on the shelf for two years and you're like, oh yeah, Iread that book, what was in it?

(13:29):
Pull out the video for 15 minutes.
Everybody's got 15 minutes to watch something.
Something I've had other business owners do too is they've added its orientation.
Oh, I love that's amazing.
do it.
Please add it to your orientation.
It's out there for you to use.
It's a free resource.
And so they'll apply to orientation.
It's just a great like, hey, here's some cool stuff you can actually practice at this jobthat's going to help you no matter what you do after this.

(13:52):
And I think that's what we all as leaders, any organization that has solid leaders, thereare people who want to help others that are curious.
We're gonna talk about curiosity later.
But those who are curious continue to be lifelong learners.
And if you can learn from the experience of someone else to speed up your path towardswhere your next journey is, how beautiful is that, right?

(14:16):
And how often does it, you know, I feel like with, have a child now and I'm even, youknow, I don't see this yet, but I remember growing up, it's like your parents would tell
you something and they'd tell you it 10 times and it's like, whatever.
You know, mom's friend comes along and tells you the same exact thing.
It's genius.
So it's like, you know, as a boss, it's like, tell people something 10 times and thesecond it's in a book, you know, a separate resource, it's like, that was revolutionary.

(14:41):
And honestly, none of the stuff in the book is revolutionary.
You read it.
None of it's new.
None of it's like,
The book's good, but it's all stuff I learned from other people and it's all stuff that,you know, it's everywhere, but try to simplify it down to a specific audience for a
specific purpose.
And that's where I think it does a really good job, is it hits a specific audience for aspecific purpose and takes a lot of lessons I learned and distills it down for them.

(15:03):
Well, and it's a playbook for success.
One year first job.
I mean, that's really what it is.
And quite frankly, especially in today, 2025, we all need a playbook for success,especially those entering into the workforce.
It's a little interesting right now.
OK, so the other thing that I really wanted to talk about is you've already mentioned itis the job you didn't want.

(15:26):
And we already talked about the job you did want.
You still want to work at a golf course one day?
I think like I thought about when I'm retired, know, like if I want to go in three or fourdays a week and just be like the angry starter, you know, I'm just kidding.
No, I I'd love to be outside, you know, so, you know, we'll see.

(15:47):
Okay, I want, so I'm trying to remember why I made this flag for myself, Jacob, but itsays, Chick-fil-A dipping sauce.
Any idea?
Yes.
So, and I like, an interview.
You know what it is, was interview.
this listeners, this is on page 19 of the book and it's in the chapter, Take Advantage ofUnexpected Opportunities.

(16:11):
And I highlighted that the interview question was, if you were to describe yourself as oneof Chick-fil-A's dipping sauces, which one would you pick and why?
So do you remember what you picked?
I do.
This is one of those core memories of, I'm like, gosh, how do I answer this question andnot sound arrogant?
And it's a weird question.

(16:31):
I'm 16 years old.
I'm at a group interview.
So there's a lot of other people who, mostly young people, either my age, a little bitolder, and we get asked the question in a group setting.
So you're having to answer also in front of everyone, which dipping sauce would thenyou're like, yeah.
I got it, it was good.
Luckily no one had my answer.
I did have a couple like, you know, barbecue cause it's good.

(16:54):
And I'm like, well, that wasn't very good answer.
oh And so I said Chick-fil-A sauce because it's the best sauce and it goes good onanything.
It goes good on everything.
And so that I want to try my best to be the best employee and I'll be good wherever youput me.
ah
Oh, yeah, I'll be good as long as you don't put me the back of the
long as not the back.
uh And turns out they took me seriously and put me everywhere.

(17:17):
I got a lot of experience.
So uh yeah, that was my answer.
I love that.
So I I'm a big Zach sauce person.
But I think if I were asked that question and this is not I have not thought this verywell, but you didn't think it very well, right?
have it.
like 30 seconds.
Yeah, not long.
Right.
I think I would have picked ketchup, but it's really it's like one of those.

(17:42):
I think it's it's much like integrity and core values like it's a classic stable that
like also can go really well.
Some people put it on everything as well.
And then it's not fancy or anything.
It's just classic, stable, reliable, dependable, and fulfills like those core values whatwas needed at that point.

(18:02):
m
See, you'd have gotten hired.
Yes.
Yes.
Chick-fil-A.
There you go.
There you go.
So going back though, I did want to comment on your chapter summaries because we weretalking about our mutual friend Scott Wozniak who is episode one of this podcast.
episode.
Yeah, make your brand legendary.
And that was the thing that I loved as well about his book is that he really took thisidea of raving fans, which Kendall and Cher, it's okay.

(18:28):
That book is amazing.
It's still one of my favorites.
It was written in 93.
So, you know, what is it?
20 or 30 years later that Scott wrote his I think he wrote his in 2023.
And he really distilled in that here are the the steps you need to take in order toaccomplish this.
So yeah, I love it.

(18:49):
Yeah, Scott's great.
That book's great.
I actually just had him on my podcast and interviewed him about the book.
Well, actually, why don't we pivot to this?
Tell us about your podcast.
My podcast, Waves Business Coaching, try to keep the name simple with the business.
Really, I have on a lot of subject matter experts and met for business leaders and ownersto help them build and develop a team.

(19:10):
I like, I love interviewing business leaders that do stuff that I don't and interview themabout what they do and how to do it well and the great free resource.
And I've had a lot of cool guests on.
Amazing.
we will put a link to the podcast and listeners.
Here's the key.
You need to subscribe.
Honestly, speaking of subscribing, like 95 % of you have not subscribed to this podcastyet.

(19:32):
every podcast.
Exactly.
It's just like I pulled it up the other day because I've heard it on Mel Robbins say onher podcast that stat and then I was looking at analytics because I was also looking at
the age group that is in our followers and I was like, oh, I also have 95 % of the people.
What is it with that?

(19:53):
People don't want to commit.
They're like, I'm just, you know, it's now this is like on my feed.
It's a good thing on your feed.
So if you like one, you're probably.
a lot of positivity on our feed and I assume that your podcast is also really motivatingand inspiring.
So absolutely.
So how did you come up with the name Waves Coaching and what made you decide to make thatleap?

(20:13):
So I've been dying to get this question on a podcast because I'll be real honest.
I'm eventually gonna have, this will be version one.
I'm gonna have a great answer one day that's gonna make a of sense.
Here's the real reason is in my friend group chat when I was starting the business, Iasked what's a cool name to put in front of business coaching that we can work on later.

(20:37):
And then name, one word, answer started floating in the group chat.
and I was checking the availability of the domain and to see if any other company nameswere like it.
And someone sent waves and I said, that sounds cool, that's available.
That's the story.
So eventually I'm gonna have a really cool story about how like, you know, business comesin waves and like the ups and downs and I'll have a really buttoned up answer that will be

(21:01):
made up.
We got the authentic one here.
authentic ones.
And you know, that's true.
I'm like, I've thought about it even after we said waves.
I was like, yeah, like we can definitely use this metaphorically later.
Cool graphic stuff you can do with it.
But it was available and I liked the name.
So there's the authentic answer.
Well, and I think sometimes we can fall into our own personal branding.

(21:25):
Yeah, I was sharing this with a an upcoming guest, Daniel, earlier today.
And we were talking about the Badass Leaders podcast.
And I was like, OK, I kind of fell into this brand of badass about 14 years ago.
I started the hashtag Be Brave, Be Badass.
Yeah.
And.
Then slowly over time, people started buying me all these gifts that said bad ass on it.

(21:50):
And thank goodness for Coach Kitsch, who is my executive coach, who then said, because thefull name of the podcast is Brave Hearts, Brave Conversations, Badass Leaders.
Yeah.
And.
He was like, you know, Angela, you should just own the badass, like, own it, go and buy.
So I probably own 20 plus domains that have the word badass in them.

(22:11):
Smart.
So anyone else that wants to pretend they're badass, they're going to have to buy me.
That's right.
And the price is going up by the minute.
Totally going up right as you're listening.
Okay, let's talk about leadership and business growth and then we'll and we'll tie it inas well with the the stuff that you have in the book as well as your coaching because I
want to cover both.
Yeah, so you emphasize the importance of building a dream team.

(22:35):
What are the key elements for an effective team?
We kind of hinted at it earlier, but the number one key element is a really good leader.
And that's not a secret.
You know, there's no shortcut around that.
There's no not bettering yourself as the leader and making your team great.
So I think it starts with a really phenomenal leader who's growing themselves, growingothers and growing the business in that order.

(22:59):
um And something I learned to Chick-fil-A.
Growing yourself, growing others and then growing the business.
um
My one of my former bosses when I was in the restaurant when I was young and didn't knowwhat I was doing uh He said this other school all the time.
He said take care of people and they'll take care of the business And he practiced what hepreached in that um I mean he this was up to me personally that was above and beyond his

(23:24):
role as a boss and as a leader and I really did believe that like you take care of peoplethey will take care of the business and so Starts with a great leader and great leaders
provide clarity
That's kind of my hot take in a leadership space is I think that is the number one qualityof a leader that when you give your team clarity, you care for them as people, um they

(23:44):
will be a dream team.
And we can go a lot into that of like, does clarity look like in a lot of areas?
That will be a second book eventually.
uh But good leaders that are growing themselves, others growing the business and providingclarity for their team, you'll be amazed what your current team can do.
if they just had clarity.

(24:05):
Absolutely.
think the thing is is this shared vision and this shared understanding and sharedunderstanding of okay, here's our standard operating procedures.
We're gonna say go out to play.
We're gonna say my pleasure every time because he heard it.
I think he heard it at the Ritz-Carlton.
I think that's it came from, right?

(24:26):
And but we're gonna do that.
And so also that's an example and the quote that you said about taking care of people.
I think that's the original Richard Branson quote.
But we should should go.
You should fact check me and put it in the show notes or any of the listeners comment if Igot that wrong.
Yeah.
But the the thing I love about our podcast and our books and our conversations is thatreally we want people to steal these ideas and implement them.

(24:54):
Like, go for it.
OK.
So so.
The key part is a leader.
Now is a great time for me to ask you this question about managers versus leaders.
Are you ready to buckle up?
Yeah, let's do OK.
So what do you think, in your perspective the difference between a manager and a leaderis?
think managers get a result regardless.

(25:17):
That's the goal, right?
Is like a manager is you're managing to a result.
um I think about the scale of like, are you more results oriented or relationshipsoriented?
I am more of a result oriented person.
But as I've had to learn through my career so far is like, you cannot accomplish a resultunless you're solo running a business, like with no other people involved, without going

(25:41):
through people.
and you can't mow through people.
I think a manager goes after results for results sake and leaders realize that you onlyaccomplish results through other people and so they lead a team to accomplish the result
instead of results for results sake and you know, I say doing it no matter what becauseyou end up mowing through people in the process.

(26:02):
That would be my...
I love that.
No, that is spot on.
you know, the reality, so then a leader in order to do that is going to realize they needto hire amazing people on their team because then those individuals, when they are clear
about where we're going, what we're doing, what's our journey going to look like, what ourculture is, and you've hired amazing people and you really are once again now starting to

(26:28):
build that dream team.
Then you've got to keep them you got to keep them motivated.
You've got to grow them and develop them and that's a lot in the back end That's a lot.
That's why leadership's difficult.
It's not easy
Exactly.
It is really easy to be a shitty manager.
It really is.
I've done it.
I've had them in the past.
So yeah, that's a lot easier.
Can you have a vulnerable moment?

(26:50):
Can you share maybe something you did in the past as a manager that you're like, you nowlook back and you're like, what was I thinking?
goodness.
I definitely like, I'm gonna say I wasn't power hungry.
Maybe I was.
ah I definitely had situations where I didn't care about the individual where I'm like, noexcuses, black and white.

(27:14):
These are the rules.
Like who cares?
Suck it up.
Like no matter what the situation was.
And I had a really bad example of that happening that I won't get too deep into detail.
Someone had a lot of stuff going on.
and I really didn't understand what, they used some language that I didn't understand andI was like, well, you know, it doesn't matter, these are the rules, sign the riot up,

(27:35):
whatever.
And I was in a meeting with another leader and they kind of explained what was going onand I was like, oh, like I had no idea.
And I ended up having to go and apologize.
So I think it goes back to, it took me a long time to realize honestly that.
you have to go through people to accomplish results.
And just because you're in charge and you have rules and you're paying them does not meanthat it's gonna be accomplished exactly that way.

(27:58):
um I took way too long to figure that out.
Yeah, well, I will say that it's getting no humans as humans.
Yes.
And when we take that factor out of what we're doing, then once again, you're back to justthe results and you don't care.
so there's a future guest.
Daniel is one of the co-hosts of the podcast I was telling you about, uh Make Work NotSuck.

(28:22):
And one of their early episodes, they talk about result, that companies and organizationsthat are just Uber,
results focus that they don't last for a long period of time or the people are miserableor people don't want to be there because they've lost that human nature piece of it.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Which is so expensive.

(28:43):
So, okay, let's dig in.
That was a great example.
Okay, so many business owners struggle with high turnover.
Isn't that funny?
was the thing we were going to talk about.
What's the biggest mistake companies make when they're trying to retain employees?
that you can throw money at the problem and just it'll solve itself like I will just giveeveryone a 10 % raise because A it's temporary B.

(29:06):
It's not really a smart business decision.
Just trying to throw money at it um So I think number one is just like we throw money atit and see you I think it's well assuming they're part of the problem of You know, like
they're leaving They weren't a good fit on the bus.
Anyway, we'll get new people on the bus because hiring and training new employees is somuch more expensive

(29:28):
and so much more difficult than keeping your employees, not even your best employees,keeping your like medium employees that are a good culture fit and maybe they're not as
good at their job, still getting a new person up to that standard takes so long.
And people are the most difficult, expensive, and complicated part of every business.
Not getting it right is honestly why I'm in business.

(29:49):
Because too many people don't get it right and it's hard, it's difficult, it's not easy.
ah So I think the real problem is like throwing money at it.
and then assuming they're a part of the problem and just being like, we're better offwithout them and not looking internally and saying, you know what, is there anything we're
doing that's causing the high turnover?
um I think there's a lot of pride in the way of that.
I think if I were gonna throw money at a problem, because there are opportunities wherethat is the right decision to make.

(30:13):
It is what tools can I invest in that will help them be their best selves, right?
So if I were gonna try and retain an employee and throw money at it, I wouldn't do it fora pay raise because people then end up leaving anyways.
but perhaps it is let's develop this professional development program that allows you, inmy experience, and so I started a five resume bullet point program years ago, and the

(30:44):
point of it is that I think we should all have five things we're working on that we'recontinuing to grow to be our best self, and that if you document those and then you share
them with your team,
then as they can also say, let me help with this or I know a connection for this.
And then when you achieve them, go on your LinkedIn and go ahead and fill it out.

(31:07):
And I found by developing that and working with team members who actually took itseriously, they didn't want to leave because they were growing and getting promoted and
loving their job.
this is where I don't know if you feel this way of being a thought leader in this space.
I feel like any idea I have, now that I have the book, I'm like, that's a book.
I have a notebook that I'm like, I have eight ideas for book.

(31:28):
So one of them is a sequel to this one.
And I wanted to take this idea of like, can I take Maslow's hierarchy of needs and kind oftie this misconception, especially I'll say like older business owners have, with Gen Z.
I just think Gen Z gets a bad rep.
I'm not Gen Z, so I'm not.
I'm not a part of them, so I'm not here on their behalf.

(31:49):
I think they get a bad rep of just being lazy and not wanting to be employed.
And just like, they're just lazy.
They don't get it.
They don't work as hard as we did.
They're getting paid so much more money than we did back in the day.
I think, I want to clarify that money can solve part of the problem.
If you're underpaying people, sure, you need to give out some raises.

(32:10):
But just money will never solve it because...
If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that level one and two is kind of like that,do I have food to eat and like a roof over my head?
Just like safety, physical safety.
And that's what you're solving with a paycheck, right?
Is like, what do mean?
I'm solving needs for them.
I'm paying them a paycheck every two weeks.
Why don't they just do their job?

(32:32):
And the bottom line is like, because we're in the West and our culture in the UnitedStates, like...
95 % of people are not worried about having a roof over their head or where they're gonnaget their next meal when you're employing them.
And so that's what a paycheck is solving.
They're looking for that next step.
And that's where they're gonna stay a long time when they feel like they're a part ofsomething.

(32:54):
And they're a part of a group, they're working for a business they believe in, they'reworking for someone that cares about them.
um I believe firmly like you don't work for a logo.
I love Chick-fil-A, but I love Chick-fil-A because of the individuals I worked for atChick-fil-A that represented it.
And so, um yeah, I think there's a lot you can do with high turnover and money can sellpart of it, but people are looking for so much more than a paycheck because look, people

(33:20):
can always get a raise somewhere else.
They can leave tomorrow and someone's always gonna pay more.
They're looking for something else.
They will stay longer if they're finding belonging where they
Yeah, I love that belonging because as a reminder, we spend a third of our lives working.
And so why not have all of these extra things?
I know that when we were building Florence Healthcare, the comment that I would say toteam members is, document management is not sexy.

(33:47):
Advancing Cures is sexy.
And the team members who got and realized, okay, we're making lives easier and better forthese doctors and nurses who are running clinical trials, who are advancing healthcare.
That is what I'm in for.
And what you did as a leader is you provided clarity.
You said, hey, your job is not just sorting these documents.
Sorting these documents is helping this way greater cause that we get to be a part of.

(34:10):
Your leader at Chick-fil-A, Shane Benson, he's a vice president at Chick-fil-A.
His big thing is we get to do this.
Yeah.
Which I love.
That's like his, that's his email signature.
We get to do this.
It's his thing.
you know, there's a video they showed at orientation at Chick-fil-A that everyone has astory.
Yep.

(34:32):
uh I used to lead orientations weekly and every time I'm like, god I'm like and the thingis like I've been a part of one of those everyone has a story stories We're like in 2019
my dad passed away.
I'm sorry and look Thank you like that literally we we leave the hospital after he passedaway and we're hungry and we go to Chick-fil-a and I'm like I'm looking around on the

(34:52):
restaurant thinking no one here has a clue The day we've had no one knows and I'm like,this is why we showed that video.
Yeah, as I'm like team members
Like you are gonna impact someone's day in a way that you might have no idea how much asmile is gonna go.
Cause you have no idea the kind of day people are having.
People might be having the greatest day of their life or the worst day of their life andeveryone's hungry and has to go to Chick-fil-A.

(35:16):
And so being able to connect that like big company vision down to a 16 year old that'sworking 12 hours a week is so crucial.
But that's where that clarity comes in.
That's what you did at your previous job too.
I love that.
Well, thank you.
Well, and also if you include my five resume bullet points in one of your future.
you go.
You just like we heard it here.

(35:36):
It was my idea first.
Just put a little hashtag Angela.
OK, love it.
OK, so I wanted to I was I was trying to decide, should we skip ahead in this or?
uh
Yeah, I'm torn.
Because I have this question about apathy, and I want to dig a little bit deeper into theapathy part because I think that really ties into the perspective the world has and

(36:03):
perhaps what we're not providing to this generation that is going to be valuable.
So the exact question that I wrote down is apathy is a growing concern among youngemployees.
What are some practical ways leaders can help employees stay engaged?
m So this is when I wrote the book I had 26 chapter ideas and then I messaged a lot ofdifferent business owners I know and said hey think about your first day employee is their

(36:29):
first job You know, give me a list of things you wish they knew or wish they would work onand so that expanded my list This one came up every single time was and so I was like,
okay, very clear I'm gonna write on this.
Yeah, so apathy is a problem because it's it's not even it's worse than negative emotion
It's the lack of emotion.

(36:50):
There's one.
I think about the movie Inside Out is so well done.
I watched a video the other day of the psychologist that Disney worked with to make themovie good.
Them kind of going through stuff.
But you see Apathy and Riley in Inside Out 1 when the console goes dark.
And it's like all the emotions are trying to hit buttons.

(37:10):
And they say, said, we can't make Riley feel anything.
And I'm like, my God, I'm like animated movie Pixar, my daughter loves it, I love it.
And I'm like, this is apathy.
This is apathy illustrative.
You feel nothing.
And it's such a big problem at work because A, like you said, we're humans.
There's a lot of other stuff going on.
And if you can't get people engaged at work, I mean, A, it's bad for your business.

(37:32):
But B, like you have an opportunity to impact individuals because what I've typicallyfound is people are not usually like motivated in one area of their life.
and then not motivated in others that's usually pretty all motivated or all not.
And if they're apathetic at work, there's probably something going on outside of work toothat's leading to that apathy.

(37:52):
as a leader, how can you help them fight it?
Right.
Like one of my favorite books, and I'll say two books, Man's Search for a Meeting byVictor Frankel.
And then Here on a Mission, Donald Miller.
It was kind of his modern take on Man's Search for a Meeting.
But a big thing I got out of that is that people like want a project to work on.

(38:13):
Yep.
Like it's just, it's a human thing of if we have a project that is interesting, that takesour time and attention, it just kind of wakes us up and we get excited.
And so as a leader, if you're dealing with an apathetic team member, especially if theyweren't apathetic before, and you've noticed like, this is a person who's been good at
their job, we enjoy them being here, man, they've kind of just been out of it recently,not really caring what's up.

(38:39):
A, it's an opportunity to be a human and find out what's going on.
But B,
Could you set aside little projects that you're like, you know what, this will take mefive minutes, but I could give it to someone else.
It's going to take them 30.
But what if that could help them fight apathy?
Where it's like, I think about chick-fil-a, this guy worked there, or it's a monotonousjob.
Especially if you're on the same position, it's like, I stand on the front counter, Igreet people, I take orders every day.

(39:02):
That person gets apathetic.
It's like, hey, do you want to go help us reorganize this shelf in the back?
That might seem like such a like, well, that's nothing.
They're not going to enjoy that.
They might love that.
Or they're like, thank goodness.
Like I actually like, I'm actually really organized.
I love doing this.
I, you know, organize my parents pantry all the time.
And it's like, awesome, please like make this better for us.

(39:22):
So that's one amazing way I think is finding a project that takes people's time andattention that interests them.
And I think as a leader to preset yourself up for that is like, hey, don't just do everyside project that you're like, it's annoying, let me fix that.
Give it to somebody else to do it outside of their normal tasks.
They're gonna be more motivated and that'll help them fight it.
love that.
And I am on this mission.

(39:43):
I hate the word delegate and I love the word empower.
And I think what you're doing in that is you're not delegating them these other things,right?
You're empowering them to have an experience, an opportunity to put their thumbprint onsomething that they can be proud of.
And I think it's much like you remember when we were
kids in elementary school and we had show and tell and we would come in and show somethingoff that we were passionate about.

(40:10):
How amazing was that, right?
This is what it is as you now grow up.
Have that back.
friend who's a coach who any workshop he does, starts with an art, he asks everyone tobring an artifact.
don't care about that and I was like, I told him, I like, I'm stealing that.
uh That's a great activity.
of my favorite things we did at Florence when COVID happened and we were trying to keepemployees engaged and we started doing lunch and learns, but the lunch and learns were

(40:38):
people taught everyone on their favorite hobby.
So we had cooking classes.
I used to have a really bad ass aquarium.
I don't have an aquarium right now.
But I did one on an aquarium.
had some...
childhood stars that did music.
And then we got to pull up and see where they were a kid band and all this kind of stuff.

(41:00):
And it was great because it was people showing off what they love outside of work.
And think about the conversations that sparked after that.
Or when you're like, I need a recipe.
OK, I'm going to reach out to Catalina or I'm going to reach out to this person to get arecipe or do this.
say two things you're getting into another big bucket I'll say of helping people fightapathy is they need to be a part of a community they need to be around other humans and

(41:27):
your workplace whether you want it to be or not is a community and so if you're getting inthe way of people actually interacting and mingling and being friends I think you're
getting in the way of growing your business and by providing opportunities for people toconnect and be a part of a community at work I mean think about like your friends growing
up.
How did you meet your friend?
It was
in places where you were all at, spending a lot of time together.

(41:50):
school, the playground.
You at church, in clubs, sports, whatever.
work just becomes that as adults.
And that's a huge way to get people to fight apathy is if they're working with people theyenjoy being around and having conversation about life, it's so important.
And they're going to be more engaged.
And I'll say, secondly, with Chick-fil-A, my interview to get to the corporate office isfor a position in learning and development.

(42:14):
And so our last thing we did was a 10 minute presentation on anything.
It was just like, you've got 10 minutes present.
And so I asked different people who had done it before me, like, oh, what did you do iton?
Because I'm like, this is gonna be a mistake if I go in and try to teach some Chick-fil-Aleadership lesson to Chick-fil-A people.
That's not gonna be good.
I didn't mind on how to do a podcast.
I've had a college football podcast, not leadership, since 2019.

(42:38):
And so when I interviewed, I was like,
this is someone not, you know, I feel like everyone has a podcast now, but I'm like, not alot of people have probably done this in this room.
And so that was our presentation.
And I'm like, that was such a cool interview thing of everyone gets a watch and then youkind of know everyone's little hobby or whatever.
And to your point, it's really cool.
Yeah, yeah.
So so this is stamped approved by both of us leaders.

(43:00):
You should consider implementing this as an opportunity because it's way better lunch andlearn than reading recipes or reading something about the current economic climate or
something like that.
Way better.
Way more fun, leads to way better conversation.
In business case, you're building community.
It's going to help you fight apathy.
Yep, I'm currently obsessed with beekeeping.

(43:22):
So I would probably do mine on beekeeping or woodturning or blacksmithing, some of those.
now I kind of want to I want to have that as a an interview question somewhere.
I want to buy some land so we can have bees.
I like went down a rabbit trail.
is world bee day.
Is it really?
Yeah, so we are recording this on what is today the 20th of the 21st?
The 20th of May and I woke up this morning to all these texts from people happy world beeday.

(43:48):
Oh yeah, yeah, so anyway.
There you go.
What a cool side note there.
Okay, so let's dig into the culture piece and building culture and I think one of thethings that I try and encourage
teams to realize that every company has a culture.
It just might not be the one that you want it to be.

(44:11):
And it's not, you know, it isn't deliberate or something like that.
So can you talk about when you talk about culture, especially when you're looking forthese young new hires, what are some of the things that you do in your coaching practice
to help drive amazing cultures?
To your point, I'll steal a quote from Mark Miller.
He said, his book, Culture Rules, I think it's a good book.

(44:33):
Culture is created by default or by design.
Your company's gonna have a culture, whether you want it to or not, whether you try to ornot, it's gonna have a culture that feels like something.
so why not create it by design?
So when I work with business owners, it's really about, can we distill this down to...
key characteristics.
So one, I think a great mission and vision is really important.

(44:55):
And this, again, this all goes back to clarity of do people know where they're going?
Like when they sign up for the job, do they know about your company enough and know whatthe mission is?
I think a mistake with a of mission statements is it's missing a mission in it.
So.
I love that.
The mistake with a lot of mission statements is that it's missing a mission.
I'll use Chick-fil-A as an example like Chick-fil-A's I'll say their vision statement isto be the world's most caring company that would be a terrible mission statement because

(45:24):
How do we know when we've accomplished this?
It's not measurable.
I win and I'm like look at the military.
The goal is not like we're gonna be you know, the US Marines We're gonna be the world'sbest military.
No, they have specific missions They do we're like D-Day June the 6th 1944.
We have this many ships and planes Hitting Normandy at Omaha, it's like very specific.

(45:45):
And so with with companies Can you have a really clear mission statement that defines?
Here's what we're trying to do and here's why we're gonna do it So again when people buyinto the why they're gonna buy into the what you want to do if they can
be with the why.
Beyond that though, can you define key characteristics for your team?
I say three because if you have 10, you have none.

(46:06):
You have to prioritize something, right?
So key characteristics, core values if you want to call them that.
what are three things that every single team member needs to have to make your culturebetter and to be a part of it?
And then interview for those qualities.
um
You know, with interviewing, three C's I believe in, again, stealing this fromChick-fil-A, but culture, chemistry, competency, that order, or culture slash character,

(46:33):
I'll say, because it's a lot easier to teach someone how to do a job than it is to, youknow, than to be an expert and then hope they fit in with the culture you want to create.
That's way more difficult than a great culture fit that you can kind of mold.
And I can teach, I firmly believe I can teach almost anyone how to do almost anything witha little bit of time.
um So defining those key characteristics and then not just being core values you put on awall but then being something that you actually hire for you evaluate around you Like

(47:05):
recognize your team and praise them for doing those things Well, you give your team theopportunity to recognize each other for doing those things while and celebrating them
They've got to be repeated and repeated and repeated um What gets repeated is what getsmemorized and you know with culture again?
Key characteristics I like to call them, core values like they can't just be something ona wall.

(47:26):
Actually make them actionable in your business so that that becomes your culture.
You define it.
You know, one of the things and the listeners heard me say this repeatedly, I hate, I hateseeing companies with that.
I had an experience once when earlier on in my career where my company, company I workedfor had their values on the back of our name badges that were on land, right?

(47:50):
And we used to joke about them because for example, one of them was speak up.
However, at this company had evolved so much that if you did speak up, you were going toyour job or you were never going to get promoted.
And so it became this joke.
So.
oh
of that, one of the things that I like to tell people to do is to set on your calendaronce a year, sit down with your team and evaluate your values.

(48:15):
are we living these?
And if we're not, why?
Is it that maybe those aren't the values that we now need because we've morphed intosomething else, so we're a lot bigger or we have a different whatever.
Maybe it's that we have an educated
people on how to live those values.
And then the thing that I really love about what you said is recognizing when people showthose values.

(48:39):
The lattice software, which is a people management software that I love, one of the thingsI love about it is you can put your values in there and then when team members are giving
kudos to other team members, they select which of the values they emulated.
I've worked with business owners who have implemented awards based on the value.
like each month, you you get the hospitality award because you did this.

(49:02):
And you're not just recognizing that person, making them feel special, which will makethem want to stay longer and work harder.
You're giving everyone else a specific action that they did to repeat, to be recognizedfor.
It is such a win.
It's like product.
It's a productivity hack is what it is.
And it's a caring thing as well.
And so it's not just like this, I'm doing this, but really we're doing this, but that'skind of what it does.

(49:24):
on its own by recognizing it that way.
And you know, I love the companies that those the words they give are not like some fancywhatever, but like some silly trinket or something that is just like, OK, this is also how
we have fun as an organization.
Yeah, I think about like The Office, The Dundies.
I'm like, I've had a Chick-fil-A do that, their version.

(49:47):
I forget what they called it, but some Chick-fil-A name with The Dundies and littlebusiness man.
Yeah, make it fun.
uh You know, life is too short to not have fun.
And why is it that at some point we thought, and I think it's because the world is full ofshitty managers, we thought that work was not supposed to be fun, that work was a job.

(50:10):
And because it was a job, the three letters in job are not F-U-N.
And people just forget like, wait, I'm doing this a third of my life.
maybe I should actually enjoy it and have some fun.
Laugh, you know, get to know other people.
As you said, find some friends.

(50:30):
Some of my best friends are people that I've worked with.
Absolutely.
So all five people in my wedding were people I work with at Chick-fil-A and therestaurant.
man see how your life you know you know those those movies and books that are like Teasureand Avenger yeah now i just am dying to see what would the movie look like if you went to
the golf course
I know I have no idea.
I'm glad I didn't know my wife because of Chick-fil-a so I'm like, yeah all these thingsthat happen as a result of that and Having fun I wrote about in the last chapter of my

(50:59):
book and I said it was the most important lesson I learned in the beginning of my careerbecause I got to a point where again, I'm extremely driven.
I'm extremely competitive Those are very good things.
I like that about me, but I got to a point where I stopped having fun at work and I got sofocused on
What's next?
The next promotion, the next role, the next goal.

(51:20):
We accomplished something huge in 2019 for our business.
It was an award called Symbol of Success.
You have to do a certain percent sales increase, I think it was 20%.
That's huge.
And I was already thinking about how we're to beat it next year.
Like, because I'm like, oh, we already have this one in the bag.
I'm already thinking about it.
And I found myself just not having fun at work during several periods.

(51:41):
And I had a friend encourage me with this of like, hey, know, if we're climbing up amountain,
Like take, a pause.
Look at the view and look down.
and see how much you've accomplished.
I love that.
He said, specifically he said like, if you could tell yourself three years ago or fiveyears ago where you are right now, what would you say?
And I was like, I'd say I have my dream job.

(52:04):
And I got to this point where I was at Chick-fil-A support center and like everyone does,was not having fun in my role and had been in it a little while and was already looking
for the next thing.
And he told me that of, if you told yourself three years ago and showed yourself where youare right now, what would you say?
And I'm like, I'd have thought I made it.
Like I'm like, it gets no better than where I am right now.

(52:24):
And so I just think it's a good life lesson of, if you're like me and struggle with havingfun because you are driven or competitive to like, you're climbing up a mountain, enjoy
the view because the view you have right now, you're never gonna have again.
And then look down also and appreciate how far you've come.
I love the office.

(52:44):
That's the millennial stamp is I love the office.
um And Andy Bernard, um Ed Helms character.
says in the last episode, like I wish you could know you're in the good old days whenyou're actually in them.
Yes.
And I'm like, if that's not have fun at work.
And I wrote like most of the chapter in chapter 10 is just little stories of fun things Idid while being a kid and working at Chick-fil-A.

(53:11):
And I'm like, you're never going to have your first job again.
Goof off, make friends, have fun, work hard.
But have fun.
And that's something true at Kathy was really big on.
There's a picture in like any Chick-fil-A you walk in, it's him hula hooping and he wasbig on.
Yeah, so it's typically like with the our story and stuff, little plaque things.
So there's a picture of him hula hooping and there's some Truett's Chick-fil-A's which arelike company owned dining Chick-fil-A's here in Atlanta that actually have hula hoops

(53:38):
outside for that reason.
oh A Truett quote is if you're not having fun, you're not doing it right.
And so I love that again, he set that up and then embodied it, that himself.
with different things in Chick-fil-A and Chick-fil-A has now made that a part of theirculture.
so again, probably the most important thing I learned at my first job was, have fun.

(53:59):
Something I would tell team members is, hey, at the of day, it's just chicken.
You know I mean?
Like what we're doing is important because we can impact people, but you know what?
If it's a long day, it is just chicken.
Like it's not gonna get, you know, much more difficult.
Well, you know, I think a struggle that we see are these companies that are Uber resultsfocused.

(54:19):
They think we don't have time to have fun.
That's right.
And I think you don't have time to not have fun.
I'm with you there.
You don't have the time to not do it.
That's right.
yep.
Okay.
So let's see.
I want to talk about personal branding.
We've talked about this a little bit and I am super passionate about personal branding.
Me That is one of the things that we do at the AGN group is we help individuals andcompanies do their brand.

(54:42):
I love it is who you are.
So okay, in Master your first job, you talk about personal branding in the workplace.
Why is this important and how can young professionals build a strong brand?
So I'll say this for companies.
um I came up with this recently.
So your mission's what you do.
eh Your culture's who you are.
I'll say for an individual, your character's who you are.

(55:02):
And your brand is how you're perceived.
And there's a big disconnect a lot of times between like, well, here's who I am, but theysee me as this.
And I would argue that's on you.
You have the opportunity to build your own brand.
And that's chapter five in the book.
It's my favorite chapter.
I'm very passionate about branding.
um started with like I loved, I mean there's just brands I'm a huge fan of and whether itbe like I was into graphic design in high school and thought I was gonna do that at one

(55:28):
point and that's a part of branding but really like your brand is how you are perceived.
It's what thoughts come into people's mind whenever they think of you.
Like when I think of Disney, I think about like growing up going to Disney World and thestorytelling, like the amazing Pixar movies I grew up on.

(55:48):
and them incorporating that in a theme park experience.
And now I have a daughter, and that brings totally different emotions of I'm getting towatch her go, and the littlest thing is making her smile, and I'm like, gosh, my wall is
gonna hurt, because just to get that smile again, I'm all in.
They do such a good job at that.
And so.
They really have coined the ability to make things magical.

(56:12):
When I think of Disney, I think of the magical experience.
You enter into all these storylines and it's just pure magic.
So what if I told you their mission statement is to be one of the world's beststorytelling company.
It's not that exact wording, but storytelling is a big part of their mission statement.

(56:32):
And so let me ask you this, Nike, what do you think of with Nike?
I love this.
I also have read, have you read Matthew Dick's book of storytelling?
Okay, he's done for the moth competitions in storytelling.
He's like the expert in all of that.
And Nike, the difference between just do it and do it, the just makes all of thedifference in it.

(57:00):
Don't wait.
Don't do all these other things.
Just do it.
absolutely.
Nike's a big one I always talk about.
The other one is Apple.
And actually, I might have gotten that example from your book if you talked about Nike inthe book, because I think I never thought about the just do it until I read it somewhere.
So maybe I got it from you.
Maybe I don't know.

(57:21):
with Apple, what are the thoughts and feelings that come to your mind when you think aboutApple?
Apple, I think that when you go back in the story, when Steve Jobs was like, one daypeople are gonna have a computer in their pocket and they're going to be able to connect
with anyone, anywhere.
And I think of Apple, think of a company that is constantly trying to make it so thatpeople can live their best lives, whether it's via automation, know, text messages or...

(57:55):
a streamlined UI so that it actually is enjoyable to collaborate with.
I think they are all about helping people live their best life.
So their mission statement is all about obviously they're a technology company, right?
But they want to have the best user experience in the world And making it easy where I'mlike I can hand my toddler an iPhone Yep, and she just knows how to use it because it's

(58:15):
easy It's very like if you think this is how it should work Apple changed the game withlike with a touchscreen device of like yes This is how naturally everything should work
and everyone modeled it after them And so for me personal branding is really aboutconnecting like who you are
and how you want to be perceived.
Because if you can connect those two, and I have an activity in the book where basically,can you boil this down to three adjectives?

(58:38):
What do you want to be known for?
That's the question I ask you, is what do you want to be known Badass.
That's right.
So if you want to be known as a badass, how can you do that now in life?
And so I have a cool activity where if you're like, have no idea where to even begin, useour good friends of AI.
I'm a personality test fan.
know some people are not.
I am.
think that.

(58:59):
It doesn't put you in a box.
think it kind of identifies a box you might already be in sometimes.
um More than that, I think it gives you adjectives and words to hopefully connect how andwhy you are the way you are.
When I took CliftonStrengths and competitive was like a strength on there.
That was my number one.
I was like, I feel like that's not a strength, but now that I see it my work, my gosh,yes, I'm a competitive person.

(59:22):
That's something I can be proud of because of what I can bring to the table to help getresults.
That's a good thing.
um
But cool activity in the book of like, you can use AI to help you with, hey, you knowwhat?
I'm an Enneagram 8.
I'm an INTJ on Myers-Briggs, but DC on disk.
Give me a list of 50 adjectives.
I'm a certified working genius.

(59:42):
love working.
Yeah He also and the thing I love about it as well is that when I was first introduced toit I joined a company and they had all done it and then I did it and then I did a Matrix
where I mapped out all the team members know what theirs were and then suddenly I realized

(01:00:02):
This is why I see why this individual is struggling in this area We've given them thistask and they really want to do it well But it doesn't align with their working genius at
all.
It was the exact opposite of that
you'll see with the team map.
So when I do workshops for it, we build a team map and you'll see trends that happen as aresult of that team map of what happens when a team has like no wonder.

(01:00:26):
what you're like as a whole, it's like, there's one individual in, know, wonder on theworking genius is just a competency.
And that's the only one.
It's like, okay, well, we know where there's gaps going to be.
And we know who your next hire should be is somebody who has this as a as a genius.
I love working.
Yeah, yeah, and I think the thing I love about just thinking about wonder versus some ofthe other ones is Every every team you can't have a team full of everyone who has wonder

(01:00:53):
cuz you want to be done Okay, and you also can't have I can I can't remember what theother ones are but you also so go ahead and
widget is it's wonder, um invention, discernment, galvanizing, enablement, tenacity.
Okay, so you also can't have a team that is full of everyone who has tenacity.

(01:01:13):
then you'll never grow and expand and think of they're going to be so focused on gettingthese little tasks that are already done.
So the beauty of having both of those is the tenacity people can get the stuff done thatthe wonder people are thinking about and collaborate and build something amazing.
What are you on working genius?
I have to fill it up.
can't remember.
Tell me again there.

(01:01:33):
I'm not wonder and not invention.
Discernment.
I'm discernment.
I'm between my higher levels or like discernment, galvanizing.
And what are the other ones?
Enablement to ask.
Yeah, and I think I think the two top ones might be discernment and galvanizing and thenenablement and tenacity and then wonder and invention There you go.

(01:01:54):
It's something like that.
So I'll the listeners I'll put in the show notes what mine actually is I have in the otherroom So I might have a little bit off at the top, but that's basically
wondering tenacity.
I think it's the second.
Wow.
Second.
uh The opposite of most popular.
Second least likely like combo.
It causes problems with my brain because I'm like I love to be at 30,000 feet and also onthe ground.

(01:02:19):
I'm like I like to do both.
uh But yeah it's just funny.
But again if you can connect like this who you are and why you are the way you are andactually get people to perceive you in a way that's
like that you're proud of, that's building your personal brand.
And sure, that can show up with how you show up on LinkedIn and how you show yourself onsocial media, absolutely.

(01:02:40):
But it's not just about that.
It really is like when people think of you, when your name is written down for a shiftscheduled or your name's like on an RCP list for a party, what thoughts come to people's
mind?
Because that's your brand.
Exactly.
And I think a lot of people don't realize that by not focusing on it, it's just likeculture.
Everyone has a brand.

(01:03:01):
You can either do it by default because you're not focusing on it or you can do thediscipline.
You can actually decide the brand that you're going to live through life.
I just did a workshop with the Chick-fil-A team and I had Mark Millers quote about cultureby default or by design and the slide changes and it just put the word brand there.
Brands are created by default or by design.
And your brand again, you're gonna have one regardless.

(01:03:23):
So why not create it by design and like go out of your way to build a personal brand thatyou're proud of and control the way people think about you in a good way.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I think to be clear on this, neither one of us are saying that you should be obsessedabout what other people are thinking about you at all.
Instead, what we're saying is, once again, you have the choice.

(01:03:45):
on how to reflect as your true authentic self.
Absolutely.
And I think when I do workshops with teams on branding, I'm often digging into who are youguys as an organization at your core?
Yeah.
Like using those five whys to dig deeper, to get down and say, OK, this is who we are atour core.

(01:04:06):
Now, if we were to ask one of our customers, what would they say we were at our core?
Right?
oh and that's where I mean, I'll use Chick-fil-A as an example.
Like part of Chick-fil-A's mission statement is to have a positive influence on all whocome into contact with Chick-fil-A.
And it's like, how do you get that to a team member?
That's very high level.
But going back to the beginning of our conversation, you put a sidekick that says, hey,create eye contact.

(01:04:31):
Share a smile, make a connection.
And that's embodying you're helping build the brain of Chick-fil-A is like, Chick-fil-A isknown as a company with great hospitality.
That's part of this idea of we just want to have a positive influence and all come incontact with Chick-fil-A.
And that's how you can get a 16 year old team member to help you build that brand is bydistilling it down and making it really specific.

(01:04:52):
You know, I think I heard this on...
Daniel's podcast earlier today, or maybe you said this earlier today.
Oh my gosh side note uh My cousin or working on his brand as well.
He's amazing and we have gotten into the stream where we'll get on a phone call and Peoplewho know me know I hate to talk on the phone But he and I will get on the phone call.

(01:05:16):
We talked for five hours last night I went to bed at four and so if I if I sound a littleairheaded in my it's all Dan Gilles fault Okay, I'm just I'm not taking no ownership
I wasn't engaged in this conversation at all.
was an amazing conversation, but going back to the Announcement I lost what I was gonna.

(01:05:36):
I was gonna say this is great.
Oh, I know what it was exactly great podcast.
No, so it was that Chick-fil-a what it does best is
leaders.
Develop leaders.
Did you say that earlier?
Okay.
See, it's sticking in my head.
You know, so I'm just gonna say I'll give you credit for that.
Okay.
So what strategies can companies implement to provide a clear path for growth and careeradvancement?

(01:06:02):
This is great.
Like again, people will be more involved and want to stay longer if they can seethemselves growing there long term.
People want to know that when they go there, they're not just going to be stuck exactlywhere they are.
I feel like this is 90 % of people just want to move up.
There's a small percentage that are just like, you know what, I'm happy where I am.
I don't want to go anywhere.
But most people at least want to know there's the option to grow.

(01:06:25):
And so making that clear on the front end is super duper important.
We did this for 15 and 16 year old team members at Chick-fil-A all the way through thehighest level of the corporate office and businesses that I work with.
It's very easy to do this.
The point is at any level of employment.
so one, showing people what you can do there.

(01:06:45):
Like, hey, what jobs are there?
People want to know.
Do people move around?
But then really defining qualities of, hey, here's what it takes to get here.
Because a lot of times, especially at like...
You know, I work with a lot of Chick-fil-A businesses and so especially at that level,typically the people who get promoted are the people who are really good at the job
they're currently doing.
And so they get promoted because, you know, they're good at bagging food.

(01:07:09):
But the job of a leader is not bagging food.
And so you promoted someone who is good at one job to do a completely different job.
Yep.
And so as a leader, can you actually show that like, hey, here's what you can do andhere's what it takes to get it and then promote people based on the qualities for the new
role?
and that the old role, I think, is so important.

(01:07:29):
Because you're going to set people up for more success.
I can't tell you how many leaders I personally promoted because they were good at thefirst job.
I put them in the second role.
They're bad at the second role.
And I'm like, you know what?
That was my fault.
I didn't really choose you based on what I needed for the new role.
I chose you because you were good at the old role.
And there's a place for that, right?
Of like, hey, if someone's really good at their job, you want to reward them with apromotion.

(01:07:50):
Heck, give them a raise first.
You know what mean?
Like, pay them like a leader if you don't think they're going to be good at the new role.
Really clearing up the qualities it takes to do the new job and showing them what'spossible from day one.
So I tell business owners to add this in orientation of like, from day one, here's exactlywhat it takes to move up in this organization and this business.

(01:08:10):
Because your cream's gonna rise to the top.
Your best employees from day one will be motivated knowing that there is something at theend of the tunnel that's not just ambiguous.
They're gonna be motivated from day one.
And even your lower level employees, they're not gonna, you know, I say lower motivated,they're not gonna try as hard from day one, that's okay.
They still know it exists.

(01:08:32):
And the more you repeat it, like we talked about, like the more they're gonna see theopportunity to grow in the organization later on.
Maybe it takes them six months to realize, I'm gonna dig in and be motivated now, but nowthey are.
And so again, I go back to clarity, creating a clear path for the growth of letting themknow what's available and getting really specific and defining how to get there.

(01:08:52):
So one of the things I was thinking several things when you were talking about that andthinking of your examples of starting and day one and I think the reality is there is
nothing wrong with spending your whole career being an individual contributor.
That's what you love.
Right.
Once again have fun.
Do what you love.
And not everyone is meant to lead other people.

(01:09:17):
Sometimes it's just to lead in an area.
And I also think going
back to the difference between managers and leaders.
I think that managers sometimes are afraid to allow employees to grow because thatemployee is so good at that job.
And I gotta keep them at that job because they crush it.

(01:09:38):
No one will be able to crush it like them.
So they can't have opportunities other places.
And a leader instead says, hey, my entire organization is going to be amazing if I help.
throw people into what they want to do moving forward.
And then they mentor somebody else to have that job that they had and they go and crushit.

(01:09:59):
I like I've talked about Chick-fil-A a lot.
One of my old bosses at Chick-fil-A said in the restaurant, every new hire, you tell them,hey, I want Chick-fil-A to be a part of your story for as long as it needs to be.
And then when it doesn't need to be, we're gonna help you get wherever you wanna go.
And so it's like, hey, don't be afraid to lose people either because why not?
If they grow and get an awesome job outside of your organization, they've grown the wholetime while they're there, which means they were an amazing contributor while they were

(01:10:24):
there.
You didn't hold them back.
Use them to their best ability while they're there and be okay with letting them go ifthey're going on to do bigger and better things because what they're going to do is we had
people leave our organization and then tell other great people who were behind in theirjourney and say hey if you want to go grow and develop you should go work for this person
at this company and so they send more great talent because great people know great peopletypically

(01:10:48):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Scott, we all know you.
That's right.
So the thing that I was like biting my tongue when you were saying this is because when Iwas building that five resume bullet point program and everything I said to the team I was
like, here's the deal.
I know you're not going to work.
at Healthcare the rest of your career, right?

(01:11:09):
I said, but what I want to do is I want to see you have grown so much so that when you goto apply for your next job, you are the top candidate everywhere.
And you know what that does?
Once again, that does branding for Chick-fil-A or branding for Florence because they'relike, wait.
All these great people, all these great leaders, all of these things come from thisorganization.

(01:11:32):
This organization must be amazing.
So by growing and helping people and then launching them into their next opportunity, allyou're doing is building your great brand as well.
and be proud of it.
mean, we would have like, hey, look what this person who used to work for us is doing now.
And to show people like, hey, that means you can use this job as a foundation, as alaunching point to do anything.

(01:11:55):
So like work hard while you're here and we're gonna give you the skills necessary to go dowhatever you want.
And that's all about creating a clear path for growth is like even growth beyond yourbusiness.
Because again, people will still work really hard.
And they'll send customers to you.
That's right.
They'll send referrals.
And like you mentioned, employees, is they are your best marketing.

(01:12:17):
Full stop.
I think talent in HR and hiring, with businesses you have customers, your talent's kind ofyour internal customer of like you have to advertise to them and like recruit them to come
work for you.
It's your most precious resource and that's how to build.
We talk about marketing flywheels and stuff.

(01:12:37):
It's like a marketing flywheel for talent.
If you're launching talent and you're not just holding onto it with a tight grip and...
know, stifling growth, you're growing them and they're going to do other things, they willsend more people.
You're going to have this amazing talent pipeline of high level leaders that won't stop.
No, no, they will not stop.
Okay, let's talk about conflict.
Everyone knows I love conflict.

(01:13:00):
I have this desire is my one of my life goals.
I want to write a book on conflict resolution and turning conflict into cohesion.
Tell me about yours because the next section we were going to talk about was feedback andcommunication.
oh So tell me what your conflict mechanism is.
So my favorite book, I'll say on like workplace conflict as a leader is Radical Candor.

(01:13:20):
Yes, It's my favorite too.
I'm like, she has badass on the title.
um or no, she has kick ass.
Yeah.
like, and I love the term boss because of that book.
think it's endearing and nice.
And so I was someone who was really good at challenging directly.
And not that I just didn't care about people, but I'm like, hey, this is my job to addressthis.

(01:13:41):
You know, maybe I didn't handle it.
as good of a way when I had conflict in the workplace, but to me, a lot of conflict comesfrom feedback.
And so we want to kind of connect it there.
Feedback is a gift.
And this is on both the giver of the feedback and receiver of the feedback to do thiswell.
It's got to be on both.
in the book, I really write to the employee and the team member of like, hey, here's howto receive feedback as a gift, even if it's not being given as a gift to you.

(01:14:10):
Which is.
oh key because the reason I want to write a book on conflict resolution is because so manypeople suck at it.
Really.
This is where I'm like, hey, if you're receiving it it's not being done well, what can youcontrol?
Locus of control, you can't control how someone's giving you feedback.
uh What can you do to actually cut through the crap and get to what's actually good here?

(01:14:34):
Because they're probably giving you feedback for a good read.
There probably is some issue that needs to be addressed, but how can you actually find outwhat that is?
It wasn't named in the book, and I wrote it actually.
need to go back and do a second edition, but the win feedback method.
Oh, same thing that's in the book, ah but now it has an acronym.
ah So what illustrate navigate.

(01:14:55):
So say if you're giving feedback, you first focus.
Let me back up for a second.
Three rules of thumb for giving feedback.
This is so important before you give feedback as far as it becoming healthy conflict andnot unhealthy.
One, assume positive intent.
How often do we go to give feedback to somebody or like address an issue?

(01:15:16):
and it goes so poorly that we would have rewinded and said, huh, I wonder if they didn'tactually try to do a bad job here.
Right.
Because the reality is most people really want to at their core do a good job.
I don't know very many people who wake up and they're just like, hey, I'm just going to beshitty today.
Right, it's like 1 % of people.

(01:15:38):
I think a good rule of thumb is assume positive intent.
And how does that change your approach?
Going in saying, you know what, maybe they didn't go out of their way to do a bad jobhere.
So let me change my tone a little bit.
Two, praise in public, criticize in private when possible.
Because again, when you praise in public, you give everyone else specific behaviors torepeat over and over again to get the same praise and it builds trust.

(01:16:01):
When you criticize in private, I mean,
I still remember vividly being chewed out when I was at Chick-fil-A by a manager in frontof the entire team and guests one night.
I never trusted that person ever again.
I was just like, trust broken, I'm humiliated.
Like whatever you.
then afraid to go out of your comfort zone because you're like, I might screw up and ormake a mistake or somebody might perceive that I've made a mistake and they are going to

(01:16:31):
blast me and make me look bad in front of everyone.
and I was a leader and now my boss has in front of everyone said I'm doing a bad job as aleader.
So now I have broken trust with the team.
It was terrible.
So I'm like, when is it possible?
Greatest as in private, praise in public.
And then a great rule of thumb, give four times as much positive feedback as negativefeedback.
Because how many of us have had the manager who the only time we, I say manager becausebad leader, ah who the only time we ever hear from them is when we do something bad.

(01:17:01):
It's just like, I haven't seen you in a while.
Here's my one mistake out of the hundred tasks I've done today.
And now I'm hearing from this manager, it's not healthy.
But if you start giving out, because feedback is not negative.
It's a negative word.
I do a workshop for feedback and I just have a black screen with the word feedback.
And I'm like, what's your thoughts?
And everyone's, this last one Everyone cringes.

(01:17:22):
I had someone say yuck.
That's right.
And then the second slide is, can I give you some feedback?
And it's like, oh, even worse, like turn the knife and I'm like, hey, feedback's notnegative.
It's just a response to an action.
That's all it is.
And so if we start giving out as leaders four times as much positive feedback as negativefeedback, whenever you address the negative feedback, it's not gonna be the only time they

(01:17:46):
ever hear from you is when you do something wrong.
And so it's, hey, they're always telling me how I'm doing, good or bad.
And honestly, if you start with four times as much and you start getting really specificabout giving everyone feedback on to their performance,
that ratio is probably actually gonna be way higher because most people do a good job mostof the time.
And so the feedback method, identify what specifically you observed.

(01:18:10):
And this is important because I'll use a negative feedback example of, if I have a teammember bagging at Chick-fil-A and they bag an order wrong, it's not, hey, you were a bad
team member.
You addressed the behavior like, hey, that order was bagged wrong.
Because again, you're building trust.
It's the fact.
It's specific, it's not debatable.

(01:18:31):
It's this black and white thing was done wrong.
It was the action, it wasn't you.
Because again,
Fresh Harvest gave me two pints of blueberries today instead of a pint of blueberries andstrawberries.
So they're not bad.
They just made a mistake in fulfilling my order.
Hey, the feedback is I asked for strawberries and I did not get it.
He now has strawberries and I'm sad.

(01:18:51):
That's right.
oh So that's the what and it's got to be specific.
um Even for positive though, you can't just tell someone great job.
Tell them what they did well.
And again, this goes back to give them the behavior to repeat over and over to get praisefor it again.
Eyes illustrate why it's important.
If you can't illustrate why the feedback is important, it's not worth giving.

(01:19:14):
so I had someone be like, well, I can't figure out why it's important.
And I'm like, well, then don't give it.
Bottom line, skip it.
Not a conversation worth having.
And the bagging example of 12, if you're a customer, it's really important to get theright order, right?
We gotta get the food right.
If you leave out my chicken biscuit in the morning, I am gonna, like whole day is gonna.

(01:19:35):
Put yourself on their shoes.
They just waited 10 minutes to drive through.
It's wrapped around the building through orders, you know, we're going to mess up.
But hey, do they know it's important to get it right?
Of course they do.
um And then in navigate, navigate the path forward.
What do they need to do now?
That's the this is what we miss is what's the goal of feedback?
For me, it's action.
Yes.
I need either change for negative feedback or please do this again over and over again ifit's positive, something positive they did.

(01:20:00):
And so get really specific of what do they need to do next time?
don't assume they know what to do differently.
Right, because if they did, they would have done it.
Once again, you're not waking up.
sense, yeah, W-I-N, when, what specifically did you observe, illustrate why it'simportant, navigate the path forward, what do they need to do now, and I'm telling you,

(01:20:25):
you can build a tremendous culture of feedback if you follow the three rules of thumb andstart giving, again, feedback that's a gift, and like a gift, it's given to a specific
person, it is for their benefit, and it's wrapped up nicely.
And that's one thing I missed out on as a leader, especially younger was wrapped up nicelyis how you give the feedback is really important because for it to be received as a gift,

(01:20:51):
it can't just be, you know, I took an Amazon box and threw it at somebody.
They're not going to receive that very well.
But when I take the time to wrap something up and put a bow on it and hand it to them.
And again, it's for that specific person to make their life better for their benefit.
Even if it's negative feedback, it's to make them better at their job.
When you approach it that way, then feedback really can be a gift.

(01:21:11):
Well, it goes back to the Maya Angelou quote where she says people remember how you makethem feel.
That's right.
And we that is part of I will say what's so funny about radical candor.
And so that used to when I was hiring managers and it is my manager book that I havepeople and I'm like, you have to read this.
That's right.
Now, I will say listeners, if you think radical candor, it is bold.

(01:21:36):
bowl.
And another similar book is Making of a Manager.
read that.
Yeah, both of them have the same philosophy as making the managers a little gentler.
I mean, I'm in the badass bold category, so I love radical candor.
yeah, I think that the reality is in both of those is that you learn how to get to thecore of something.

(01:21:57):
You take out like, I don't like you because you wore a short sleeve shirt today in my ACnetworking in here.
No, you get over that and you're
they're just like, no, no, no, no.
It is what the action is, what the behavior is.
That's right.
Not necessarily the person.
That's Okay, that's amazing.
So, okay.

(01:22:17):
So we've talked about giving feedback.
Let's talk about receiving it.
So for the younger listeners here that are early in their career and may not have anamazing leader that says it's okay to make
mistakes.
say you I say instead of failing fast, you learn fast that way.

(01:22:40):
So they are in an environment and they're like terrified to make a mistake.
And then their boss comes and says, and they're like, but wait, my my mom says I'mperfect.
Why are you telling me, know, I'm just making up stuff, right?
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And so everyone loves their babies.
Beautiful.

(01:23:00):
And so how do you coach those young
first time you've had feedback like this before, how do you coach them on how to actuallyaccept it and implement it?
So I'll say same method.
So, but now it's, if you're not being given the feedback in a method that's helpful likethat, then how can you receive it?

(01:23:20):
It's into your point, how do you get to the core?
Because maybe it's being given and it's just like, you're terrible and da da da da.
And it's like, well, okay, there's clearly something wrong.
I don't think I'm terrible.
start asking questions.
What, hey, what specifically did I do wrong in this situation?
Right?
Like, and I have a list of questions in the book that you can ask in the section of.

(01:23:41):
Hey, but what is, know, let's get to the core.
Chapter seven.
So what specifically like is going on here?
um The I, the illustrate like, hey, it's going to sound like a dumb question, but like,hey, why is this important?
You don't want it to come across as like arrogant or uh in a way that's like not helpful,but like, hey, why is this feedback important?

(01:24:06):
you get, especially if you don't understand, maybe you understand, you don't need to askthat question of like,
Okay, now that you've told me specifically what I did wrong, I know why it's important Idid this well, right?
And then lastly, same thing, the goal is like the one feedback method, can you askquestions to get that if you're not being given that?
And so, the navigate like, hey, what can I do differently next time?

(01:24:26):
And if you start asking those kind of questions that are actually helpful, it's actuallyreally disarming to the person giving feedback, even if they approached it in a way that
was not helpful and didn't have good intentions.
But if you start asking those questions about like,
Hey, can you tell me specifically, hey, what happened that was wrong here?
I know I did something wrong.
What specifically did I do wrong?
And they're like, well, it was this.

(01:24:47):
It's like, okay, you know what?
I did do that wrong.
I understand why it's important.
um What can I do differently next time?
You start taking responsibility because a lot of times the situation is not gonna bepositive stuff, right?
It's gonna be negative feedback that you're getting.
um So when you can actually get to the core of what's going on.
Anyone who gets defensive about getting positive feedback.

(01:25:08):
I don't either.
I'll say though, if you're being told great job, it wouldn't hurt to ask what you didwell.
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, one of the things that I love in feedback is when you're receiving feedback, weshould also go back to that always assume positive intent for the other person as well.
Yeah.

(01:25:28):
And so I love to ask the question if feedback is given to me to say to show a learner'scuriosity mindset and to say, you know what, your feedback is very valuable to me.
Can we walk through some of these things so can help
so I can really understand where you're coming from and then build something toward.
And I find that when I do that, the person's like, wait, I already know this conversationis going to be good because she wants to learn and hear more.

(01:25:56):
That's right.
And again, you kind of diffuse, going back to conflict resolution, you kind of diffuse asituation when you're the one who's, I'm a learner, let me diffuse this, let me ask you
questions, let me get to the core of what's going on, and you diffuse it for both parties.
And so whether you're the leader, giving the feedback or receiving it, you can diffuse itby assuming that positive intent.
Exactly.
I think also starting off with the first off, I want to say thank you for taking time outof your day to give me feedback.

(01:26:23):
Yeah, I know you're super busy and I have this, you know, everything you say yes to meansyou're saying no to something else.
First off, thank you for this feedback.
Now, I really want to dig in a little deeper because I know you've worked hard on this andI want to be able to understand it and I want to collaborate well with you.
Can we?
I think it is just taking that moment to also

(01:26:44):
realize that a lot of people are so conflict-averse.
for the person giving the feedback, many of those people are terrified to do it, right?
They're terrified that this person, and they've told all these stories, they probablystayed up all night the night before, Plagued out all of these things, they're terrified.
So you can actually help the situation as the receiver by saying, first off, I just wannatell you thank you for giving feedback because it's hard to do and this is really cool and

(01:27:12):
moving forward.
okay, do you remember where, I'm gonna hand you your own book.
you read a couple of those things that you said, the questions that you could ask.
And I think as we're talking about that, I then want to move into the firing a customertype question.
But if you, I put you on the spot, how do you feel right now?

(01:27:34):
Are you sweating?
Yeah, I'm like, you know, what's funny is I have on my list to like next month to read itagain I'm gonna start writing again soon.
So I'm like, let's figure out what well and uh I have a copy that I went through ahighlight and I was like, I found a couple mistakes already.
I'm like, well, hopefully no one catches that uh

(01:27:55):
Okay, I have like, if the feedback provided is vague, seek specifics by asking to definethe what, what exactly are they addressing, request clarification to ensure you fully
understand their point.
again, go back to clarity, like next inquire about the significance of the feedback, askthe why questions to delve into the reasoning behind their feedback, ensuring you
comprehend its importance and finally seek guidance on future actions, request anactionable plan, what changes are needed or what behavior should continue, clarify the

(01:28:22):
expectation with the provider.
I wonder how many times I use the word clarity.
That'll be the...
Sure, it could too.
That'll be the second book is around clarity.
So again, it goes back to like, can you ask questions to get really specific around ifyou're not receiving feedback in a way that's helpful, you can actually ask questions to
get there.
Yes.
And make it helpful.

(01:28:42):
Even if again, the person going into it wasn't trying to be helpful or assume positiveintent, maybe they were and they haven't read the book.
So they have no idea how to give good feedback.
And most leaders are not trained well enough.
No, I never took a class in high school growing up or in college on how to give feedback.
That's right.

(01:29:03):
Zero classes on it.
So what happens is we all learn.
from the fact that there are so many shitty managers out there.
So we learn horrible ways to do it and it becomes ingrained.
And then we get defensive because we're like, my gosh, I can't believe you're now we, thestories we tell ourselves in our head, like Brené Brown says, right?

(01:29:23):
And I love the thing that you were talking about that for the clarity piece of it, one ofmy favorite things, and I got this from Brené Brown was also in this conversation when
they say something pause and say, okay,
I want to make sure I understand where you're coming from.
What I heard you say was this.
when I hear that, the story going on in my head is this.

(01:29:44):
Is that accurate?
And then pause and allow them to say, no, Ange, that's not what I meant.
What I meant was this.
Because then you can get down to what the core is and make sure you're speaking the samelanguage.
I think you have something that's just a good life skill of listen without thinking aboutyour response.
Like listen.

(01:30:07):
It is.
That's fair.
That's fair.
uh But being able to listen to conversation and being okay with, let me pause and thinkabout my response because I want to make sure I was listening to you.
Give me one second.
And like, that's okay.
Because I'd rather you have a really good response after, you know, if I'm giving youfeedback and you're trying to take it all in, like, I'd rather you have a listen to have a
good response and the other way around.

(01:30:28):
Right?
Like if you're giving and someone's like, well, hey, I actually meant to do this.
It's like, again, assume positive intent.
No one's trying to do a bad job.
99 % of people are not trying to do a bad job.
So yeah, being able to do that's huge.
Okay, Katie's gonna kill us because we're supposed to keep these episodes to write an hourand I know we're going past that.
So another question that I have is the reality of the benefit or if you can share anyexamples of when you had to fire a customer.

(01:30:57):
And I'm all about.
once again going to the reality of everything you say yes to means you're saying no tosomething.
And if you have a bad customer, the amount of resources, energy, drain, impact on employeemorale, they cost you so much more money than if you have a great customer.

(01:31:18):
So can you think of any examples of when you've had to do that?
You know, I got told the customer's always right.
that's not true.
It's not true.
It's okay to fire a customer.
I'll say one very simple one was there was a guy who came into Chick-fil-A and made a 15year old female team member just cry because of the way he treated her.

(01:31:40):
And it was very easy to ask him to leave.
I'm just like, you're a grown man.
She's 15 working 12 hours a week.
What are you doing screaming?
You know what I mean?
There's clearly something that's going on with your day, but you can leave.
You know what mean?
We're not helping you.
uh We had another one who is, I say a raving fan.
She came in every morning for breakfast, had a very specific order.
But when I tell you it was never right, and she'd order it the same way, we even tried totell her like, hey, you know what?

(01:32:09):
Based on us finally getting it right, here's actually what you're asking for.
Order it this way.
And she'd order it that way, and it's wrong.
you know, it takes us eight minutes just to make her order alone, because we have to dosomething fresh and specific.
And eventually, like, she just kept complaining and I just told her, hey, like, I'm reallysorry.
It's clear that, like, we can't get it right.

(01:32:30):
I would recommend you go to another Chick-fil-A because, like, we're not going to try toget it right anymore.
You know, like, it was just like the time and effort.
took several people on the team for that one eight dollar order that honestly, because wehad to keep remaking it, the food cost of it was like we were making no money.
on her.
just like, this is not worth the trouble.
And we tried, you know what I mean?

(01:32:52):
Like we felt like we went above and beyond for that person to like, hey, can we try tocater to this person?
And if not, and it gets easy at Chick-fil-A to lose a customer.
I think it's a lot harder at other businesses when maybe it's one of five customers,they're all high ticket and it hurts a lot more to lose that customer than ours.
Just as valuable.
The thing I love about the balance of this and we're working on a montage of firingcustomers because I'm all about that because I think also when you fire those type of

(01:33:17):
people, the message it sends to your team is that you truly care about them.
Because the amount of anguish, I bet people would cringe when she would walk in andthey're like, my God, I don't want to take her order because I'm not going to get it
right.
not trying to brag on myself, but as a leader, at orientation I would tell people like,you're a team member, you're getting paid, I'll say minimum wage, not, but low wage for

(01:33:43):
this job, you're making 10 bucks an hour, whatever, you do not get paid enough to dealwith difficult customers.
I'm like, if someone's being difficult with you, I was like, you do not have let themfinish a sentence.
Walk away, come get me, I get paid enough to deal with them.
I'm like, I'm giving you permission.
to not let them finish a word if they're being rude and come get me.

(01:34:04):
Because again, I want you to feel cared for.
I want you to feel protected here.
And yeah, I love that in both those situations, it was to protect the team that we firedthe customer.
Where I'm like, I care about you being here a lot more than that one order.
That's silly.
So I'll do the hard thing.
To me, it's the easy decision.
And be like, you can go.

(01:34:26):
I love my team a lot more.
You can't do that with everybody.
especially difficult people that are making your team's life miserable.
Those are the easiest customers to fire.
Exactly, exactly.
So episode two and child gives an amazing example Yeah, and she was CEO of AT &T businessa huge customer that they fired and it was exactly that it was a customer Well, you know

(01:34:47):
what?
I'm gonna say it was a customer that was belligerent etc listeners.
You have to go back and listen to it And subscribe exactly subscribe don't be part of that95 % Okay, so can you finish this sentence a badass leader is?
Someone who does what?
who fights for their team.

(01:35:09):
I think that's the, like incorporating the badass part of it, fights for their team.
I think that if you can protect your team, I go back to if you take care of people,they'll take care of the business.
And I think fighting for the team can, you know, look like firing a customer in thataggressive sense, but also I think like fighting the care battles too.
um So my boss in 2019, my dad passed away.

(01:35:30):
And so like I was living in Florida and Tampa.
It was very unexpected.
like drove up to Atlanta, up here for two weeks and while it was all happening andobviously unplanned, I was an hourly employee, did not have vacation, any of that.
And when I got back to Tampa, my boss just handed me a check for two weeks of pay.
And like above and beyond, did not have to do that.

(01:35:53):
And I'm like, man, I will like, I mean, I will work my butt off.
You know what I mean?
I'm just like, to care for me that much and like there's different ways you can do that.
But to me, that was him fighting for his team.
of making it happen like that.
And he knew too, I was interviewing for a role at the corporate office in Atlanta.
I was only gonna work for him for three more months.

(01:36:13):
I was on my way out the door.
And so he wasn't even doing it to keep me there longer as a motivation.
He really did just care for me as an individual.
um And so I think a badass leader fights for their team.
And that's a big example, I think, but there's lots of ways you can fight for your team.
Yeah, nope, I love that.
Okay, so what is one bold move that the listeners who are listening to the podcast todaycan do to build their personal brand next?

(01:36:39):
What would you say?
Go take a personality test.
Yeah.
Especially if you struggle with, don't know how to describe myself.
I couldn't even give you the words to describe how I want to be perceived.
I think personality tests can help start to give you words.
And if you're a person who's like, I hate personality tests.
I don't want to be boxed in.
Hey, just see if you don't have to agree with it.

(01:37:00):
You know what mean?
Find the words you do agree with.
Because to me, that's what they're really good at is giving you language to describe whyyou are the way you are em and who you are as a person.
and use that to build a brand off of.
so something that I pride myself on is excellence.
And I like doing things to a standard.
And I want to be known as someone who has a brand of excellence.

(01:37:22):
And for my company, when I hire people, that is one of our core values is high standard ofexcellence.
That's not boxing someone into a specific personality type, but if you're not going tohave a high standard of excellence, we're not going to work well together.
And you're not going to represent my brand well.
Everything's not done to a high standard.
take a personality test, start to get some language around, hey, how do you want to beperceived?

(01:37:45):
Because you're being perceived whether you like it or not.
People have feelings and thoughts about you, whether you want them to or not.
And so can you get language and then take action on it and be specific of, okay, for me,excellence, what does that look like now?
How can I show up with excellence on LinkedIn?
How can I show up with excellence with clients and customers?
For this podcast, can I show up and be prepared?

(01:38:06):
And like, not just not.
He brought me swag.
I'm the one who I love to give gifts to guests and he totally showed me a play total
Not a show up.
yeah, so like find words that describe who you are and then take action and actually startcontrolling the way you're perceived.
That's what building a brain is all about.
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
And also I would encourage listeners to take several different types of personality tests.

(01:38:31):
Yeah, because the words and the way that they convey it to you may really speak to you ifyou do this type versus the other one.
like, that doesn't make any sense.
Yeah, that's right.
One another side note, Christy Straw, who's the episode.
I think she's going to the episode right before this.
She has a
a personality test that she created and that's on leadership.

(01:38:52):
And so I took it right before her episode.
And I was like, wow, this is amazing.
Like this does describe me and all of that.
So I think this great, you know, taking several different ones and then, you know, kind oftaking a step back and say, what of these areas are actionable for me?
And that could also put words into my vocabulary of who I am, what I need, what I'mpassionate about.

(01:39:17):
That's amazing.
I love it.
OK, so how can people find you?
Find me, so I'll say if you want this book for free, you can get a masteryourfirstjob.comslash free, and you can get a free e-copy of the book.
So again, like you said, I'm big on this actually being something people can take actionon and change and master their first job.

(01:39:41):
So I love giving it away.
I've said like, I'll give away a million copies of the book if it changed his businesses.
So it's an e-copy.
Also, if you like a hardcover or paperback, like I do, there's a link for that on thatsame site, but you can get the e-copy of the book for free, and then you get the audio
book for free and the video summary for free.
I'm also.

(01:40:03):
Sorry, I love it.
So you can get the book for free.
Then I'm on LinkedIn.
Jacob Karns with a K and Waves Business Guy.
Everything's on LinkedIn now.
Yeah, we will include all of those links in the show notes.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I will say, you know, one of the things I was thinking about for your book, because,you know, I love to give books as gifts.

(01:40:23):
uh this is just a great book for graduating high school senior college students, PhDstudents, all of them that are going into their first job.
So, you know, this episode is going to be released after graduation.
But hey.
It's like every six months there's graduation.
and you can always give it to them, like, you know, later.

(01:40:45):
That's right.
hey, I heard this great author and you should follow these.
I had some people buy some copies of the book for graduation this year and then I'm like,there's six and 20s in the pages.
I'm like, that's a great gift.
It's like, yeah, give them the cash, know, but like give them something that can help themwith their career too.
Exactly.
There are some 20s in there and make them read it.
uh The audio book is right at three hours.

(01:41:07):
And that's me like enunciating and trying to narrate.
So I think you can read this mostly in like three days.
It's a very easy read, very sticky, actionable.
I'm biased, but I think it's a good book.
okay to be biased and it's okay to brag about something you're really proud of.
very proud of it.
for it.
Okay.
It's motivational quote time.
It is a requirement this podcast.

(01:41:27):
Everyone has to share their favorite motivational quote.
So this comes from Walt Disney.
When I was a kid, said I loved Disney.
I wanted to be an Imagineer.
Kind like the brains behind the theme park and making magic happen.
um There's a movie that is not a very popular Disney movie.
Meet the Robinsons.
yes!

(01:41:47):
I loved that movie as a kid.
Do you know like the phrase from that movie?
They say it over and over again, like the tech, the inventor guy.
No, what is it?
moving forward.
They say it the whole movie.
And so this kid doesn't realize it's a great movie, go watch it.
there's like this inventor and this kid fails at his invention and it gets celebrated.

(01:42:08):
And they're like, it's great because we just keep moving forward.
That's the whole movie is like their whole family might just keep moving forward.
The movie ends and they have keep moving forward in the screen.
And this full quote comes up and I'm like, my gosh, it's from Walt Disney.
It's actually from, so he says, around here, we don't sit still for very long.
We keep moving forward.
trying new things, opening new doors, because we're curious.

(01:42:31):
And curiosity leads us down new paths.
And so I wrote in the book, like, you know, I hear the phrase curiosity killed the cat.
I just strongly disagree.
I think that at every move in my career and honestly, my life, a new door got opened upjust because I was curious enough to like peek behind it.
And so my biggest encouragement to other people, I love that quote, is just like, becurious, be curious enough to try something new.

(01:42:56):
to open a new door to go down a new path because your entire life or career could changeas a result.
And I think it also ties to our whole conversation about conflict resolution and feedback.
Because if you're really curious about the reason why or all, if you are that, then peoplejust, love curious people.
It's so funny when we were kids, we said, why, why, why all the time?

(01:43:20):
And people got annoyed with it.
And now as adult, at some point we stopped saying why and digging deeper and getting tothe core of things.
So being curious, amazing.
I'm so grateful my parents answered my why questions as annoyed as they probably were.
And I've made it a goal of mine as a parent to answer the why questions because curiosityis a very human thing and we should tap into it more.

(01:43:41):
Absolutely.
Well, thank you so much for your time today.
Thank you for bringing the badass into this podcast.
is amazing.
Absolutely.
Thanks for joining me for today's episode of the Badass Leaders Podcast.
To hear more interviews with industry experts and learn how to grow your career andleadership potential, be sure to like, subscribe, and turn on notifications to ensure you

(01:44:09):
do not miss future episodes.
This podcast is a production of the AGN Group.
To learn more about the AGN Group, visit our website at theagngroup.com.
There you can discover
more about our services which include posting workshops, management consulting, brandstrategy, keynote speaking, and more.

(01:44:31):
Follow us on all social media channels shown on the screen and displayed in the shownotes.
And until next week, be brave and be badass.

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