Karen Valencic: The Physics of Conflict from a Black Belt Engineer

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
But what's interesting is you could raise your voice slightly with another person and theycould melt on a puddle on the floor.
So how much you push, because the productive, the creative conflict is that you push justright for the people involved to get engagement.
you
Welcome back to the Badass Leaders podcast.

(00:22):
And if you've been listening for a while, you know I love talking about conflict.
And that's what today is all about.
Conflict resolution, how to really crush it in a badass way.
So who's our guest?
Well, today our guest is not your average leadership consultant.
Karen Valensik is an engineer turned black belt and the founder of Spiral Impact, amethodology that

(00:48):
uses physics, martial arts, and real world leadership into a powerful approach to conflictand collaboration.
With over 30 years of experience helping leaders transform resistance into momentum, Karenbrings a fresh, no BS perspective to what it really takes to lead with impact.

(01:09):
She's the author of the Black Belt edition of Spiral Impact, The Power to Get It Done withGrace.
And her work has been sought after
after by Fortune 500, healthcare systems and academic institutions.
If you're into bold ideas and real conversations about what it takes to lead, make sureyou follow us on LinkedIn for behind the scenes clips, takeaways and upcoming guests.

(01:35):
Are you ready?
I am.
I am so excited.
So join me, Angela Gilnames on today's episode of the Badass Leaders podcast, where I'mjoined each week by industry experts for intimate and
eye-opening discussions about the challenges and joys facing the leaders of today.
Listen in and get ready to scale your company, grow your business, and unlock your fullgod-ass potential.

(02:07):
don't know if you know this, Karen, but I all the listeners do know this that I lovetalking about conflict.
Conflict resolution is my favorite topic.
And you know, I think if you're in what I call conflict mastery, if you've masteredconflict, you've got freedom.
Right?
You know, it's like the only thing really that you gotta do.

(02:31):
get people who are terrified of conflict to realize that by being brave enough to learnthe techniques to master conflict that they then receive that freedom?
How do we get people to understand that Karen?
That's my mission, actually.
And I find with my model, Spiral Impact, it gives people tools that are not scary.

(02:56):
They're not scary.
Because I think when we think about dealing with conflict, we're always thinking ofconfrontation.
And confrontation is something I rarely advise.
It's very rare that I say, go confront them.
confront is face to face, head to head, toe to toe.
And that rarely works.

(03:17):
unless you're in a very dominant situation and you're the dominant person.
So there's a lot of other ways of doing it.
And that's the thing I love about my work is when people can feel it and they can see it.
And really, my newsletter is called, ah Yes, because it's that like, ah, yeah, this shitworks.

(03:42):
know?
Well, that's this way.
with grace, right?
It works with grace.
So now listeners, you have a little teaser about what we're gonna talk about.
So don't you dare leave this episode because you're gonna miss all the valuableinformation you need to make it you lose your fear of conflict.
But first, we wanna know who you, Karen, who you are as a human being.

(04:09):
So tell us about yourself, what brought you to the stage, a little bit of your background.
You don't have to say the year you were born.
won't ask that.
Tell us a little bit.
I was born in 1975.
I turn 50 next month.
the listeners already know that.

(04:32):
Absolutely.
I feel a little bit like I'm 30.
Now my body is starting to tell me I'm not 30 and I'm just gonna have conflict resolutionwith my body.
you, I'm gonna shut up now and you tell us about you.
Who are you as a human being?
So, you know, what I always come to is what my primary purpose and values are, and they'rearound honor.

(05:01):
In my deeper work, I talk a lot about intention and purpose-based intention, and mine isto honor myself and others.
I really care about people.
I love helping people grow and really step into their power.
That is what I, it's just really jazzy for me to do that.
And so, you know, I'm an engineer by education.

(05:23):
I have a degree in mechanical engineering, and I worked in that field for about 10 yearsin the auto industry.
product development.
And truly, the work I do now, I almost called my business the physics of conflict.
because it's really all very much the same.

(05:43):
And I think one of the questions you asked is, know, why, you know, why, I get asked alot, why would you leave engineering and do this?
And I find that the people aspect is just really fascinating and it's very similar in somany ways.
And I really love those projects when I can actually do both.
So I sometimes have consulting gigs that are process involved as well as people involved.

(06:09):
And that's really fun.
for me.
So I'm an Aikidoist.
I've practiced martial arts for 34 years now.
I hold a 3rd down black belt in the martial art of Aikido.
And that's just a huge part of who I am.
And it's something that keeps me very active and flexible and moving and all of that.

(06:33):
so I love that practice.
I'm also a mom.
I have two grown daughters that I'm just so proud of everything about them.
I'm so proud of them.
And I love being a parent.
And I live in Indianapolis, Indiana, which is the center.
of the United States.
So that's a bit about me.

(06:54):
But my primary thing is I really love people.
And I love them more and more.
Conflict we have kind of.
this right now in our history.
Yeah, and I think right now, and I don't want to get into talking so much about politics,or we could.

(07:15):
But you know, I think it's really important
For me, it's like, you know...
to fight hate with hate is really a bad idea and that goes nowhere positive.
And so I'm always looking at people as, you know, we're one, you know, in my martial artspractice, we have this connection and what I do to you, I do to myself.

(07:39):
And so I'm very conscious about that and not that I condone everybody's behavior, but Irealize that, you know, we're all here trying to do the best we can and sometimes that
looks
pretty ugly.
ah But my prayer, my hope is that through these really difficult times we will all emergemore connected than we ever have been before.

(08:03):
that's my...
That's my- The reason I was so- uh
so stoked about you saying about the more conflict, the more you love people is I alsothink that individuals don't understand that if you have the ability to sit in conflict

(08:23):
with somebody else and have that experience of getting to understand their perspective,their concerns, what brings them to that area of conflict as well, then you get to know
them as a human.
And really, I started
believe that most humans are amazing people and we forget all of those pieces of theirpersonality behind that and then when you have that opportunity to work through conflict

(08:51):
with them then suddenly those I mean some of the people I've had conflict with are some ofmy closest friends.
And when you can work through that, you become, you come closer.
You come closer.
And it's, and I...
I think now, because I'm going to say I've studied this and taught it for many decades,decades, and I still mess up sometimes.

(09:15):
But I always reenter back in and it's again, if you have, if you understand the tools andyou understand the physics of conflict, it makes it so much easier.
And most people, most people come into the work world, which is primarily where I do workis with, businesses.
m

(09:35):
Most people come informed about conflict from their families, primarily, and I don't knowabout you, but I don't know that many families that have a fairly functional conflict.
No, I don't either.
I don't come from one.
uh
I think that, you know, and it's funny because a lot of times you'll hear parents sayabout their children, they're fighting, well, they just need to figure it out.

(10:02):
And I don't agree with that at all.
Because when you let kids figure it out, the most dominant person...
takes control, and everybody learns these very dysfunctional ways of dealing withdifferences.
And I know for myself, I grew up in a family where there was a lot of fighting.

(10:22):
And I took on the role to be the peacemaker.
And so I became this person that accommodated everybody's little need.
that's I was the second child.
Okay, because it's always like, it the middle child or the third one who ends up being thepeacemaker?
You know, my family doesn't fit those models around the child order, but I was the onlygirl between two boys.

(10:50):
And I just...
uh
Yeah, and I was just the, I was the peacemaker and so what I found, well, when I wasmarried and I'm in a fantastic relationship now with my kid's father, but we're not
married anymore and haven't been for years, but you know, I was accommodating.
And you cannot accommodate.

(11:11):
And then I started learning this work and I did things differently and it didn't fit inour marriage.
So anyway, it's just fascinating to watch.
But those people also look to media and entertainment for their skills.
And, isn't that cool?
And it's interesting, over the years you can see this language come through popular media.

(11:34):
And it's hard to keep up with.
When you've been around for a long time, it's like, what's...
I heard someone say a word the other day, and I thought, what did they say?
It was...
oh
You're gonna laugh when you heard and I can't remember what it was, but it was a word Iassociate with really awful and it but it was actually cool and I was like, oh, okay So

(11:58):
language language changes and it's hard it's to keep you got to keep up with it and and Iand also be willing to always ask the question Well, what do you mean by that?
Because sometimes I think well, what are you saying?
It was sick the work the use of the word I'm like it's
the word bad too.
You remember there was this, there are years where something, if it was bad, that meant itwas really good.

(12:22):
Like it was, you know.
Right, right.
And so it's really confusing.
You got to stay up with it.
And anybody in your audience that's in their 20s may think that's kind of silly.
when you know after decades, you realize how much language changes.
But media and entertainment really impact people as well.

(12:43):
And I think the whole usage of the word like, like, you know, that's something that we sawin entertainment a few years ago.
And it kind of drives me nuts, like this, like that.
passive you know comedies are passive aggressive you know i i'd watch comedy
very,

(13:10):
I believe in constantly growing and constantly improving.
So I listen to my own episodes and I was listening to one recently and I text Katie, theexecutive producer, and I said, Oh my goodness, I say like way too much.
Why have you not told me to stop saying like it now it's, it is a nail nails on achalkboard to me.

(13:32):
And it's one of those things that I think about, you know, what I was also just realizingI've talked on this podcast a lot about my childhood because I came from a very,
abusive home and I was the only one being abused.
So it was also this dynamic of me being the middle of the oldest three kids, right?
And in between two brothers, I mean the only one that was abused and having an olderbrother who is brilliant and very dominating and then a younger brother who was the

(13:59):
accommodator and the peacemaker.
one thing that I just realized when you were talking about that is that
Over the years as we became adults, I've always been once I
escaped that environment, the person that I'm not afraid to have difficult conversationswith people and work towards something that's going to be for the greater good.

(14:23):
Well, the problem I realized in my relationship with my younger brother, he and I used tobe best friends, is that if a conflict came up that involved my oldest brother, the
dominator, then my younger brother knew I would love him regardless and my love wasn'ttied to whether or not he agreed with me, but it wasn't the same the other way around.

(14:44):
So it was better for him to be accommodating to the older brother than me because hewasn't going to lose the love for me, but he was in that way.
And I think that ties to so much of what we learn as children that then we take intobusiness and we take it into our VPS sales and why we may or may not be getting along with

(15:06):
them or marketing or whatever.
Right, exactly.
And really, I think what I notice is it's the people that are really loud that's easier todeal with because you know what you're dealing with.
You know, it's the people that are really quiet.
that when there's conflict in groups going on, it's really hard to really know what'sgoing on.

(15:32):
So you have to, when I work with teams, I do a lot of stuff with this content of spiralimpact and the, you know, what is conflict and all that.
And I really try to create a very safe environment for people to be able to speak.
And I've had some amazing, amazing things, magical things happen.
And I was, one of my early first clients was a technology

(15:56):
group and it was mainly men.
I had, and it was back then I called it creating with conflict.
And there was this group of guys and they were really very loud in their conflict.
And they kind of were dismissive saying, we already know how to create through conflict.
We just rumble about.
And then of course, you know, as we were talking about, well, what does that do with otherpeople?

(16:18):
This one woman, one of the, I think she might've been the only woman in that group, sheraised her hand and she said, and you guys, you've got to know when you're doing all that,
you'll never hear from me because it scares me.
And that was, and that room got just totally silent.
Totally silent.

(16:39):
off, right.
powerful moment in her life to pause and speak her truth so that other people couldunderstand that.
It was really amazing.
It was really amazing.
And so, you know, that same group, it was so interesting.
I'm going to say this because I feel like your listeners would probably get something outof this too.

(16:59):
In that same group, I had a guy that was one of those people, if you've ever worked withgroups, which you have, I'm sure.
There was a guy that did not want to be there, and he leaned in his chair back against theback wall the whole time, and he was very aggressive toward me.
what was great is I could model what I was teaching with him.

(17:21):
So it was...
And how dare you come in and help them grow, right?
Right, so they did a smile sheet after that and his feedback was this is the biggest wasteof time and money that we could ever have done when there's so much else that we could be
doing.
And a few uh weeks later, I was asking to one of the principals of the company and I said,well, what are you seeing?

(17:48):
And he said, well, I tell you what, he says, I am seeing a dramatic, dramatic differenceto the better of one person in particular in this group.
And I said, well, who's that?
JD was the guy.
so it's really fascinating.
I just find it fascinating um just how they show up and what they do and all of that.

(18:12):
Well, I think it also ties to not believing necessarily what people tell you, but insteadbelieve what they show by their actions and by those types of things because oftentimes
they do not mix together.
Okay.
I also want to, in the very beginning you mentioned, and it's of course one of thequestions because I'm an engineer as well.

(18:33):
you are?
didn't know that.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
I am an engineer.
Georgia Tech.
Well, good for you.
Good for you.
That's a great school.
Yeah, I'm so biased.
I bleed Georgia Techs.
uh
In fact, my day job, run commercialization efforts for medical technologies that arecoming out of Georgia Tech and Emory and helping those teams learn to drive towards

(19:02):
commercializing so that their research that is so critical that it actually gets out ofthe bench and gets to the patient or to the doctor or to the nurses.
So it's actually making a huge impact in life.
And I love, love what I do and work with teams from Georgia Tech and Emory.
So yeah.
So when you said that...
One of the things that I like to say, I'm on the College of Engineering board at GeorgiaTech.

(19:25):
I'm also on the board to the president.
And when I'm talking to engineers, I tell them the beauty of being an engineer is if youlearn how to solve problems, that is a course.
I care about, if you know as an engineer how to solve problems, you can pivot at any stagein your life.
You can decide what you want to do, because there are problems in every industry, everywalk of life, groups, teams, individuals, everything.

(19:48):
So I love that you
have an engineering brain.
Well, you know what, and I tell you, I think everybody should study engineering because wehave a, I've noticed that we don't have a lot of great critical thinking around and it's
so important.
And actually, I mentor students at Butler University here in Indianapolis, or I used to,and one summer I was involved in a summer work project where we looked at business

(20:11):
students all over the country and their critical thinking skills.
They're awful.
And every year, business schools take more and more math out of their curriculum.
And there's a direct correlation with math and critical thinking.
yet it's really there.
that's exciting.
Well, my father, actually I have to tell you, I was actually just down in Georgia.

(20:37):
And my father and my mother, who's now just died recently, she's.
I'm sorry.
Thank you.
They live in Athens, Georgia.
Okay.
So, you know, different school, but I think that's your job.
school.
We call that school the Community College up in Athens.
Oh, University of Georgia is an amazing school.

(21:00):
It's an amazing program.
You never have to be loyal to Georgia Tech.
So we just call it that Community College up there.
That's funny.
That's funny.
It's a great school.
mean, it's such spirit.
It's such spirit.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
What school did you go to?
Well, I went to a very small engineering school.
And you know, I was a very early adopter.

(21:22):
I was the first woman.
in the division of General Motors that was an engineer.
So I was a very pioneer and I went to a very small school in northern Indiana calledTri-State.
It's now called Trine, but there were only a thousand students.
And so what was beautiful about that is I really feel like I got a great education and Ifelt so supported.

(21:45):
And so, yeah, but I was the very first woman in my...
I might have been in the entire division.
There were 60,000.
Yeah, so it love this.
Yeah, was an interesting...
Yeah, it was interesting.
And because like you, I grew up with two brothers and a father that was an engineer, I wasvery comfortable in that environment.

(22:06):
that was not a hard transition for me at all.
ah But yeah, so interesting.
So, okay, so I can picture and being an engineer doing this leadership stuff as well,appreciate the value and the transition for that.
But I want to hear about how did you get into Aikido?

(22:27):
Did I pronounce that correctly?
Because I've been practicing.
Yes, that is good.
That is right.
Well, so I'm not going to go into great depth on this, but many, many years ago I read astory that was called A Kind Word Turneth Away Wrath.
And a lot of times I tell that story, but it takes more time than I want to take rightnow.
But it's really about a guy that was an American that was in Japan studying this artcalled Aikido.

(22:53):
And he was on a train and there was some disruption that happened.
And you know,
in Aikido, we're taught not to fight.
He who has a mind to fight has broken his connection with the universe.
But he's in this situation where he's thinking, I don't do something, somebody's goingreally get hurt.
And what's interesting is right as he started to kind of taught this person so that guywould make the first move, this little Japanese man just yelled, hey.

(23:23):
what you been drinking to the guy that was causing the disruption.
And it totally shifted everything.
And anyway, he talked a lot about Aikido and how...
ah It evolved through many, many other martial arts.
And so when you watch martial arts and if you have an eye for locks and throws and allthat, you know, the most recent Mission Impossible, there's a lot of stuff I recognize in

(23:50):
that because it's stuff that we do, but we have a different intent behind it.
So the founder of Aikido is considered to be one of the finest martial artists of alltimes.
And he studied and taught a lot of different
arts.
But midlife he started to think, you know, I'm teaching these arts that are all abouthurting people, maybe even killing people.

(24:13):
And it's totally contrary to my values.
And so he actually took a break and he went on a retreat in the mountains and his questwas to try to find the true martial art.
And so through all that experience, he came back and he says, found the true martial artand it is love.
And so he started practicing with a different intention.

(24:34):
His intention was to nurture his attacker's life as well as his own.
So it came to be called Aikido because
It's spelled AI, which is harmony or blending, KI, which is energy or universal energy,and DO is the way of life.
So it's the way of life through the harmonizing of energy.

(24:56):
And a lot of times people will say to me, I know what that's like.
That's like when you use the attacker's energy against them.
And I say, no, no, no, no, no, no.
That would be Judo.
Aikido, we're not using it against.
We're using it to diffuse and shift and move.
That's what we're doing.
And so it's not an art in which you harm and you go against.

(25:20):
And so when people say that, I always want to correct and say, now you might find someAikido teachers that say that, but I think they're missing the originating principle of it
personally.
So yeah.
Well, I love also, I'm hearing this and I'm thinking, okay, I can see how someone who hasan engineering brain knows how to solve complex problems and then has training in an art

(25:49):
that teaches how to have this balance and how to bring things together.
Beep.
such huge skills towards conflict.
So tell me now, let's talk about the Spiral Impact, the book that we have right here.
You see, I have notes for it and-
I love that.
m

(26:09):
So one of the things that I wanted to read from the beginning because I also love the useof the word grace.
I think that, and I'm going to read what you have in the forward of your book about this.
So let me read it first and then I'll say.
So this book's subtitle, The Power to Get It Done with Grace, is standing the test oftime.

(26:33):
You may think power and grace in the same sentence are contradictory.
partly because you may have been led to believe something different about power, which Ithink is so true.
With three decades of consistent practice in Aikido, I know that understanding thedifference between power and force, I love the physics of this, power and force.

(26:53):
is a key to getting out of struggle, both on the mat and in your life.
So let's talk about how you used all of your engineering and your Aikido to develop thismethod that's been so successful.
Yeah, so, you know...
Force, and I'm going to just make this really simple, so to all of your audience, whateveryou can relate to.

(27:20):
So force is a straight line.
So we spent a lot of time doing vector equations in engineering school.
And it's Newton's law of cause and effect, is you have one force equalizes with anotherforce and all of that stuff.
And that's a lot of how we, a lot of people will lead.

(27:41):
actually, they use force.
And force looks like using statements, telling people what to do.
It's that anger piece.
And I often use the analogy of a hammer and a nail.
And if you've ever been in a situation where you're trying to get somebody to do somethingand you feel like all you do is you're hammering away, you're hammering away and you keep

(28:02):
doing the same freaking thing over and over and over and nothing changes.
It's because you're using force.
And if you're a parent, you know that very true, because kids will teach you all of thatvery well.
oh So anyway, but on the other hand, power, and I'm talking about true power.

(28:28):
real quick that forcing the first thing I was just thinking about is also because we knowthat forces end up having to that right or coming is that we forget that the harder we
push on one side the natural reaction of physics is the harder it's going to push on theother side.
Exactly, exactly.
So it's just universally true until we take it to a different level.

(28:51):
And I want to talk to that as well.
And I don't talk to the next level as much in my book as I will maybe in my next book.
But power is rotational.
And so if we go back to the, if what I'm doing is joining boards together, I can use ahammer and a nail.
And we've probably all done that, I think.
And you've probably hit your thumb with a hammer.

(29:15):
And you've probably bent nails, because that's force.
And it's destructive.
But if you want to use power, you're going to use a screw and a screwdriver.
And that's rotational.
So there's a tiny bit of force to start.
And then you rotate it.
And it's really stable.
ah It's very easy, it's much easier to use, nobody's going to get hurt.

(29:36):
And the best thing about that is that you get a really good long-term result because youhave all that surface area contact.
And the same is true ah with our communication.
But let me give a few other examples for people because, you you might think a gun isforce.
But actually, in the shaft of a gun,
is a spiral, which is what puts that power behind that bullet.

(30:00):
Football, which I know Georgia's more into football than Indian football.
We're more basketball up here.
Also, UGA is better at football right now.
uh
Maybe not for long.
Well, and you my 93-year-old dad, was telling me last fall, said, you know, Karen, youshould be teaching your stuff to football teams.

(30:22):
And I'm like, yeah.
I'm happy to.
But you know, that football, you put a spiral on it and it takes it down the field.
The heart is a spiral.
It's a pump that's very efficient in how it moves.
So when you look at the universe, things that are powerful are spirals.
Now, we mistake power.

(30:44):
A lot of times people in power will actually use force to get their point across.
And that's still force.
so really the essence of this work is being able to distinguish the difference betweenforce and power.
Because force is, whoever's in a dominant position, and usually people that see themselvesas less than you, whether it's their position in their work, whether it's their

(31:13):
psychological or their emotional prowess, will rarely attack you.
And so, and usually when they attack,
they're using force.
And so when you can learn to use power, then it shifts things.
And so I know your listeners are probably thinking, yeah, but how do you do that?
Right?

(31:34):
And so in Aikido, what happens is, in Aikido, what happens when a fist comes toward me, Imove slightly offline and into it.
And when I do that, I don't block that force, I let it go by me.
and then I shift with it.
And there's some videos on my website and on YouTube and stuff, but um what you end updoing is you shift your position so you're no longer going force against force.

(32:03):
You're guiding their movement in a different direction.
And so what happens in real life is it's so powerful because...
Because people aren't expecting it.
People are not expecting you to move in and with.
They might expect you to retreat, but we're not talking about retreating.
We're talking about staying with and moving in.

(32:26):
And so it's a very different dynamic.
it's fascinating to, well, the whole study for me is really fascinating because we talk alot about nonverbal communication and really.
I think the research and I've heard, you know, people throw so much stuff out on theinternet unless you research it, it's hard to know whether it's true or not.

(32:48):
But I understand that what I was always taught was that 95 % of our communication isnon-verbal.
And so that, all that accounts in there in terms of where you are.
So if I'm talking too fast or too much, let me know.
but I want to say something really quick and also I'm not shy.
I'll just jump in.
great listeners probably hate when I do this, but anyway, but I was just thinking aboutgoing back to your hammer and screw analogy.

(33:17):
Okay, so I am a blacksmith.
I'm also a beekeeper.
I've done a lot of yes.
I've also done a lot of hammering and for example, our bee boxes.
I screw them all together for reasons, but I'm thinking about, okay, let's not talk about
power screwdrivers.
Let's just talk about holding a regular screwdriver.

(33:38):
Right, exactly.
And a hammer.
And I think the reason that initially we get those individuals like JD or whoever who areresistant to learning these things is because it takes more time.
It takes more time.
to take a handheld screwdriver and screw a screw in that's gonna do a better job, lastlonger, line up better, be way more resilient, all of these things, way longer to do that

(34:09):
than it does to hold a nail and smack it a few times with a hammer that you can do veryquickly.
But we know with the hammer and the nail, the straight of that nail that just goes in anddoesn't bring all the team members together for that,
then if something happens it easy pops off.
And you're actually worse off.

(34:30):
than you were before, because now you have this extra hole and now you're trying to findanother spot to put it in and all of these things.
So all the individuals who think, I don't want to work through a methodology and conflictthat's going to take a little longer and we're going to talk about your quadrants for your
spiral.
They're like, I want to just do the hammer and the nail because I'll get there.

(34:52):
However, it's that whole story.
Just doing it right the first time saves you so much time.
Yeah, I have a story.
I think it's in my book and I had a client once and to put this in a in a business contexthad a client that was that actually brought me out several years in a row to do leadership
training and then after one Training he said to me.

(35:15):
He said oh by the way We need to get a new C CFO and I'm gonna hire this guy that's in histeam now what's funny is
And then he looked at me, because I know my face fell on the floor.
Because the only guy that he was going to hire was the person.

(35:36):
can't lie.
I cannot lie.
I cannot lie.
But it was interesting because exactly the same function, was he says, I know what you'rethinking.
He doesn't seem like a fit philosophically.
But he says, I know him.
He's here.
He's available.

(35:57):
It's the handle.
I mean, you might think of that differently, but it's that quick thing that we do.
Guy ended up making some decisions and the whole thing just fell apart.
Almost the entire place fell apart and certainly my client lost his job.

(36:17):
I mean was a really, it was really an ugly thing but absolutely right.
It does take longer but it actually takes, it's actually shorter.
I mean it is one of those things.
than redoing and because then what they had to do is they had to then hire somebody else.
They to fix all of the toxic damage that was done by what was an easy and to be clearlisteners, I've hired a lot of people and every hiring manager makes mistakes.

(36:45):
And we have those instances where we ignore our gut and then we hire someone who are like,why did I do that?
But it's a great example.
Yeah.
So what was the light?
Oh,
Go for it.
But there was already so much known about this person already.
which we knew was not...

(37:07):
you know.
both sides.
He'll be easy to onboard because he already knows the system.
already whatever he's going to jump in and be immediately effective and all of thesethings.
So what was your light bulb moment when you suddenly realized because I've never I've donea lot of conflict research.

(37:28):
I've never heard of this idea of the spiral and I love it.
And so what was that light bulb moment that you said, wait, here is something that'sreally impactful.
Okay, so there's kind of two lightbulbs moments for me.
One was when I first saw Aikido.
And I'll tell you, it was at a dental conference.
And the man I initiated...
To whole conference?

(37:48):
My kid's dad is a, he was a periodontist, he's retired now.
So we used to go to this dental conference out in the Rockies that was all dentists, butit wasn't anything about dentistry specifically.
It was all personal growth and practice management kind of stuff.
And so there was a man there and when I saw his credentials, I immediately knew that'swhere I'm going to be hanging out.

(38:10):
And his name is Tom Crum.
He's now retired, but he wrote a book ah many years ago in the 70s
that's called The Magic of Conflict, which is a great book, and he's an Aikidoist.
And so he did a demonstration.
And you know, when he did that demonstration, I watched and I got it.

(38:30):
I got how dysfunctional I was in conflict, because I could see it.
It was like, see what I do, and I am so ineffective.
And that was light bulb moment for me when I first decided.
I'm not going to, I'm going to segue out of engineering and I am going to, this stuff isso important.
I had no support from anybody close to me when I made that decision.

(38:54):
mean, that's part of the, you know, that part, was what triggered my marriage ending was Ihad no support.
My parents were like, why would you do that?
I mean, why would you, you're an engineer.
Right, exactly, you're an engineer, but they're the coolest.
Right, but then the other thing...
You're still an engineer.
oh

(39:16):
light bulb moment for me was when I was practicing Aikido and I was on the mat one nightand you
For me, I think for most people, when you're doing something physical, oftentimes yourmind just is open up in a different way for ideas.
And I was practicing because I felt like I was doing my version of Tom's work at thatpoint.

(39:39):
And I'd been doing it for about 10 years.
it was, you know, it was good.
It was really good stuff.
But I felt like there was something missing.
And so I was sitting there and I was thinking, well, what do people want?
People want to do what they love and they want to do it with some ease and grace.
And then I was just reflecting on this.
mean, it was really, I mean, I don't think if I really worked at this, could have createdthis, but it really came to me when I was practicing and I thought, well, what do people

(40:05):
want?
People, yeah, they want to do what they love and what do they need to do that?
Well, and that gets us into the quadrants.
And so what do they need to know?
They need to have knowledge.
And now this is a 30,000 foot viewpoint, but they need to have knowledge about themselves,about whatever it is that they're working with or on.

(40:25):
They need to have knowledge about the people that they work with, the other people.
And then when you get into a team dynamic, a team is very different.
they take their own complexion rather than just you or another person.
there's all that knowledge that you've got to become the every, you know, the learner onall of it.
You've got to have focused energy.

(40:46):
The second, the next quadrant, and I don't, I hesitate to say second just because they'renot.
want you to define something before we go into what your four quadrants are.
So sorry listeners, mean seriously you could pause and buy your book on Amazon and thenfollow along if you want and see all the quadrants.

(41:06):
But sorry we're gonna pause for moment.
love this part on page nine when you define conflict and you're saying in here, know, adifference becomes a conflict when you choose to push against the difference.
The word conflict, and you talk about it's derived in Latin root from meaning together andstrike.

(41:29):
So conflict means to strike together.
It can be experienced as creative tension or destructive tension.
I want you to walk us through that because I love this level setting.
that so many people think conflict is this, but it's really not.
Right, right.
know, again, as an engineer would I get back to the basics.

(41:49):
And so all your listeners, if you're not driving, take your fists and push them together.
So you're going to push together.
Guess what?
That's conflict.
That is conflict.
And this is what happens.

(42:10):
And as we talked earlier, the harder you push, the more hard you get back.
so this happens.
And it becomes conflict depending on how hard, how fast, or how long this push goes on.
And that's where it gets tricky, because some people can handle a lot of this.

(42:31):
Some people, you can come in and just dress them down and they're like, thank you.
I aspire to be that way and I'm pretty much that way, but I am still sensitive.
But what's interesting is you could raise your voice slightly with another person and theycould melt on a puddle on the floor.
So how much you push, because the productive, the creative conflict is that you push justright for the people involved to get engagement.

(43:00):
And that's the tricky part.
The purpose is to bring forth the best ideas, to engage people.
Whereas the purpose of dysfunctional conflict is to make wrong, destroy, or even defeat insome way.
So our purpose is very different.
And so that push, and this is something I pay a lot of attention to in my life.

(43:25):
Because when I feel like I'm pushing,
I shift, I shift, and actually what I want to do is I want to spiral.
So if you did this push with another person, all one of you have to do is open your handand you spiral in and it releases that tension and then you get movement.
And so that's the key to all

(43:47):
is different than just going along with somebody else.
Right.
Because I think going along with someone else probably looks more like this.
Yes.
Right.
Exactly.
But then that spiral is creating what is going to be that masterpiece that you Right.
Right, right.
It's not about giving up
You know, I use the analogy of maybe one person wants, I think I use the colors blue andgreen.

(44:13):
You one person is convinced that blue is the die-end end-all of everything.
This is how we got to do it.
Whereas another person may say, it's the green way and they stay here, they're stuck attheir level of position is what they are.
And you know, what is interesting too is when you're thinking of, if you're in conflictwith somebody, the more

(44:36):
you push them, the more they dig their heels in.
And so the more they've been pushed, the more they are resistant to even hearing you.
And so, and you know, that nonverbal stuff, doesn't have to be overt.
People can feel it.
So if you're a spiral impact person, you know that one of the things you want to do is askquestions.

(45:01):
You know, that's that going in the circle, is I want to get off of my position.
off of my point of view and onto a viewing point.
And that's where I can see the world as the other person's looking.
And so what does that look like?
I might say, well, tell me about your experience with blue.
oh Have you tried this with blue?

(45:23):
So now I'm becoming the learner about.
So they're really married to blue.
Now, instead of discounting it as not as good as green,
I want to learn about it because when I learn about it then I can have a conversation andwhat's so beautiful about that is when you start talking with somebody and they're no
longer having to resist to protect their turf that creates an opening for them to ask youabout green.

(45:52):
So it's really quite magical how that works.
I was trying to find, was looking for where I highlighted, because you said somethingabout, I love the approach.
I was going to say tactic.
I don't like the word tactic in this instance, because I think that uh maybe it's notthat, but I love the approach of connecting and asking questions because, and also

(46:15):
understanding the way things feel in your body.
And there's a section here where you talk about body reaction.
You know, know where you're in conflict because, and this is page 129.
You have increased heart rate, tension in the stomach and neck, disagreement, feelings ofstruggle in a situation different from what you desire.
So I think it's really important that us, as we as humans, understand that feeling.

(46:38):
But the other thing...
is you just said if you were trying to force, if I'm trying to force blue on you andyou're the green girl, then, right?
So you're like, no Angela, green, and I'm like, no, no, no, blue.
Then your brain is no longer thinking about anything other than proving that green is theright one.
But if I pause and I start asking you those questions, then the other thing that's magicalabout it is your body relaxes a little.

(47:06):
start, your brain goes out of
that fight or flight mode and you get into this situation where you also start thinkingabout it.
And oftentimes when you're walking through those questions is when the green person islike ultimately, you know what, nevermind, maybe blue.
mean, you know, my podcast studio is blue.

(47:28):
So that's why I said I was a playground deer.
you
But yeah, it also offers that opportunity for the other person to feel heard, to feelseen, to not be pushed down and to open up their mind again.
Yeah, because you know, I really believe at the end of the day, we all want to be seen andheard.
Yes, we do.

(47:48):
And I think that's why we see such conflict in our country right now is I think there'sbeen people that have not been seen and heard.
and, you know, they're all valid.
and, and
You know, again, I love people, I honor people, and I use every opportunity I can to looksomeone in the eye and talk with them because it's like, how are they experiencing the

(48:11):
world today?
I mean, it's a wonderful thing.
ah
the car example that you share in the book.
Because also, I'm on this mission in the world for people to understand that it is okay tolet someone in.
It is not going to delay your trip to your office by 10 minutes to let someone in.
But share that story because that is connecting.

(48:33):
Okay, so traffic is a great thing.
And you know, I just came back from a road trip from Georgia, and I was in traffic, and Ilove to study how people are in traffic.
But if you are trying to pull out onto a busy road, and you don't have a stop uh sign,there's just this flow of traffic, and it just keeps going, going, going, going, you know,

(48:55):
I always ask people, what do you know works to get somebody to let you in?
think about it everybody, just think about it for a second.
Well what we know works is if you make eye contact with them.
Because if you don't make eye contact with them and you just try to squeeze in, and I'mpretty calm, but if someone tries to just squeeze in front of me without any kind of

(49:18):
communication, I want to ram them.
I still have that in me.
I'm like, how dare you.
Easier car force additive.
I used to drive this old Chevrolet when I first started driving and sometimes I wish I hadthat old bomb, but no, I mean, I'm really not.

(49:39):
if you've ever experienced this, if you roll your window down and you make eye contact,they will let you in.
It never fails.
If they don't want to let you in, they know you're there and they just won't look at you.
So you wait to the next person.
it's one of those things that's about connection.
so often we forget about that connection in our work.

(50:04):
And I've done a lot of work in hospitals.
one time I had a physician say to me, and this is in my book as well, she said, my biggestconflict is I go down to that lab and I tell the lab tech I need this sample done.
in the next couple hours or whatever it is.
The lab tech will say, well, that's just too bad.

(50:26):
That's just too bad.
I'm thinking, gosh, it really happens.
really happens.
Yes.
I've seen this.
The doctor thinks, how disrespectful of that person.
But what's happened there is there's none of that connection.
There's none of that connection that happens.
How do you make the connection?

(50:47):
Good morning, Amy, or good morning, what's your name?
Something that's just not just, I need this lab tech.
Because one of the keys of applying this is to get rid of your statements.
Because statements keep us stuck.
And she was saying, I need this done by today.

(51:08):
And the lab tech statements are like a force.
And they get meet with force.
They stay stuck there.
If she just asked a question, tell me more about, you know, tell me how's your workload?
I've heard that things are really busy down here.
What's it like?

(51:29):
You know, that's a way you can acknowledge and ask a question and you create connectionbecause now you're learning and acknowledging how the world looks to them.
And you will get a different answer.
You will get a different answer.
Now if you have some past history where you've been kind of a little bit of a not verynice person, a Karen maybe.

(51:54):
It's been a bit hard.
You can say that because that's your name.
It's like you know what I do now is I tell people that they can remember my name becauseI'm Karen and I'm on a mission to make people realize that Karen's are actually most of
them I've ever met really wonderful people so so anyway, but but it's Asking that questionand acknowledging somebody because again, you know, we're all human.

(52:17):
We all want to be seen.
We all want to be heard
to that wannabe scene.
We want to be heard.
We want to be appreciated for what we're doing.
in our busyness, we forget that.
We forget that.
it's...
There's power in building the relationship and also knowing you don't always need thingsurgently.

(52:40):
But when you are known as the person who always needs it right now, then you're going toget it a lot slower than when you're the person that comes in and is like, hey, you guys
are swamped.
Good news is this sample tomorrow is totally fine.
And then you come in another day and you

(53:01):
I feel really bad about this, but you guys are really busy and I really need this sample.
Is there anything I can do to help navigate to make this happen?
I'll bring you Chick-fil-A biscuits tomorrow.
Exactly, It really is.

(53:23):
Okay, so your quadrant, I'll let you go back to your quadrants.
Yes, it is so simple!
Yeah, so when we think about these quadrants, and I'm going to say, the first actually, Ialways say five steps, but you've got to first recognize when you've got conflict, and how
does that show up for you?
And that's really important to know.
And I think that when you recognize that you're going down that road, or that you've gonedown that road, is really key.

(53:49):
Because I have done some things before, and I realize.
I catch it afterward or even something that wasn't intentional.
Like I was doing a big project and I sent the final report to this group of people, but Ineglected to copy the main person because it was like we buy all kind of thing.
And I thought when I learned that it was just like I could feel myself sweating.

(54:12):
I mean, because I thought, oh my God, he thinks I've dropped the ball on this.
But all I did was I went out, I acknowledged him, I asked a question.
It was just I just went forward with it.
So it's always that.
But asking those questions and acknowledging, I think about that when you think about aspiral.

(54:32):
There's three components of a spiral.
There's the part that goes around.
And that is what we're doing.
We're asking questions.
increasing our knowledge about whatever it is.
And that's through acknowledgement and asking questions and being the learner rather thanthe authority.

(54:53):
And I find even when I, you know, I've done this for a long time, I have a lot ofauthority with my work, but I ask a lot of questions because I don't want to assume that
people, and I also find sometimes,
someone in authority can make statements that people will push against.
Like for example, someone will say, well, we all know that this is true.

(55:19):
We all know, I didn't know that.
mean, it's like for me- was just all people.
We all know.
It's making a statement that may or may not be true.
And so then it goes within a person and you're thinking, well, am I less than?
I didn't know that.
But it creates-
those things.
so there's the going around, which is the knowledge piece.

(55:41):
And then there's also, when you think about power, I often use a picture of a hurricane ora tornado because in the middle of that there's the eye.
There's a calm eye in the middle of that spiral.
And that is the next quadrant, which I call focused energy.
And a 30,000 foot viewpoint of that is what I call choosing to be centered.

(56:07):
And centering is a big umbrella for a lot of things, but in the martial arts, it's reallyabout being balanced, physically, spiritually, emotionally balanced.
And when I work with people in person, I actually have a uh little exercise I do whereI'll just have someone come up and I'll just push on them and they tend to wobble.

(56:28):
And then I have them put their focus at their center point.
And their center point is in their gut.
It's about an inch and a half below their navel.
And so if they focus there, and you'll notice this in your own life, they focus there andI push on them, they're much more stable.
And so what I do is I teach people, there's a lot of ways of getting centered, but whenyou're centered, when you're centered, you have a perspective and a confidence, and not an

(56:56):
arrogant confidence, but you have a knowingness that is very calm and present.
and you don't, you're not as reactive and you notice things that you wouldn't noticeotherwise.
So it's really powerful just to be.
And so, and there's a lot of ways to get there.
And I encourage people to choose something that works for them.

(57:17):
And I think breathing is probably the most accessible for people.
ah And I do have a download that's like, you put your seatbelt over your center in yourcar and breathe.
You know, it's that simple.
When you're driving...
Don't put your hands at two and four.

(57:37):
Were you taught that, two and four?
was taught two and four, my daughter was not taught two and four.
I don't remember if she was taught ten and three or what she was taught.
Yeah, because now since we have airbags, see that goes to show that once we've hadairbags, it's dangerous to have your hands up here.
It's also very uncentering and tense.
mean, for people listening or watching, just raise your shoulders up.

(58:01):
It throws you off balance.
And so you want to have your hands at, I think, four o'clock and probably seven or eighto'clock.
And you drive from there.
And it just makes you more centered.
So it's just a walking or running and I like to use the example is if you go watch amarathon, the people that are winning look like they're being pulled from a rope from

(58:23):
their heart, their center, whereas the people at the back are working with theirshoulders.
They're not very aligned and all of that.
So the way you move physically through the world makes a difference.
Stairs are a place I noticed when I started this work I would walk upstairs with myshoulders.
Now I use my lower body.

(58:44):
You know, pushing a cart or a lawn mower move from your hips rather than your shoulders.
So it's a lot of physical stuff and of course that's what we do in Aikido.
But there's also things I ask people to think about in their memories, which is, you know,think of a time in your life where you felt you could do anything.
You just had such awareness.

(59:06):
Things were brighter, seeming, uh sounds were very poignant.
And there was just this air about you that you felt really empowered and can do.
And for me, that's Mirror Woods.
I go in my brain back to Mirror Woods, and your mind doesn't know the difference whetheryou're there or not.

(59:26):
So if you recall those experiences and make them really rich with sensation on your skin,with sounds that you hear, uh smells, Mirror Woods, there's that smell of the earth and...
There's birds singing, and it can just take you back to that place.
So I think that because we talk about asking questions, but a lot of times when you're inconflict, you're not thinking, oh, let me ask a question.

(59:53):
But as you develop your center, it puts you in a situation where you can think faster onyour feet.
And that's what the power of that is.
And it gives you that sixth sense of what's going on.
So you can think about, what do I not know here?
How can I?
how can I ask a question?
And it'll give you a different perspective on things too because someone could be reallyangry and you might be able to be in a situation where you might see, it's kind of funny

(01:00:21):
how they're yelling at you.
Right, right.
You know what I think my favorite question is?
What's that?
Especially if I can tell it's like a heated or I can tell by the body language.
Because I'm all about, I watch people's body language so much.
if I can tell that they're raising their voice, they're talking faster, they're gettingmore tense, they're leaning more and they're doing all these signs, right?

(01:00:48):
And I realize they're really engaged in what they're saying.
It's my favorite thing to do.
is say, okay, I understand this is real.
I see this is really important to you.
Tell me more.
So you don't have to think about a brilliant question.
Just-
Tell me more.
I use tell me more all the time.
that's That's a good name.

(01:01:08):
Tell me more.
Yeah, I use that all the time.
It's a fantastic, yeah.
And you know what's so nice?
You know, I don't know about you, but when I was going to engineering school, I wasworried I'd have to have all the answers.
You know, and my dad told me, we don't really, we work in teams, Karen.
You don't have to have all the answers.
I think that's really...

(01:01:31):
something with groups too, is I don't want to show up with the answer because they've gota better answer than I have because they know their stuff, right?
Right, right, right.
So how do you, I'm trying, I'm picturing this and I've read the book so I know but thelisteners do not know.
So when I think of, we've talked about spiral and you can see the image on the front ofthe book of spiral and then you also have what I find is very interesting, these quadrants

(01:01:57):
in here that we're talking about.
So you have four quadrants that tie into it and when I think of quadrants, my brain justgoes into hard stiff corners, the opposite of spiral.
you talk about how you came up with these quadrants and how the two of them go together?
So if you look at that picture, in the middle of the quadrants is a spiral.

(01:02:18):
so what it is is you quadrant shift.
So you go from one quadrant to the next.
So I tell people, so here you are.
You're in a conflict.
You get it.
You're struggling.
So pick a quadrant.
Pick any quadrant.
we're finally going to tell you what the quadrants are.
oh
where we'll just walk.

(01:02:39):
The quadrants are, the first one is knowledge, and we talked about that.
You start asking questions and acknowledging, so you're increasing your knowledge.
The second quadrant is focused energy, so you've got to get yourself centered andperforming.
again, this is 30,000 foot viewpoint.
There's a lot more to that.
don't drink a lot of alcohol when you've got a big conflict going on.

(01:03:01):
mean, there's a lot of good sleep.
I mean, there's all those kind of things that go in that.
Now, another one of the quadrants, and again, getting back to that idea of a spiral, andthat picture is two-dimensional, but another quadrant is intention.
And that's the quadrant that most people think about.

(01:03:22):
That was a quadrant.
In conflict, so often people leave out intention.
And I tell you what, I make some good money when people call me up and say, we have gotsuch conflict here.
We have such conflict.
And every time we get together to try to hash it out, we just get worse.

(01:03:44):
People cry.
They don't want to show up.
It's awful.
And I say, well, what have you done?
They say, we just get together and we just try to hash it out.
We just have to hash it out.
And I said, well, I can help you then.
Because I know when you try to hash out a problem, it gets worse.
It always gets worse.

(01:04:04):
I mean, and that's what most people do is they focus on the problem.
Intention is we focus on where are we going?
And that's the thing that gives.
Instead of going in circles, which is the knowledge and the center, the intention gives ita direction.
And so I think...

(01:04:26):
the direction and know spirals are powerful and when people hear the word spiraling oftentimes they think that that you're going down the drain is an awful thing but that's only
because they're powerful and you can reshift that spiral in a different direction butyou've got to be conscious of doing that and that comes with intention and there's a lot

(01:04:48):
of layers of intention yeah lot of
The reason I loved intention so much is that one of my other favorite techniques inconflict is, and I had this happen this past week where I was suddenly thrown into a
meeting that I thought was focused on a fundraising thing and it was really focused onsomething I had no idea about and I was just like, wow.

(01:05:12):
And so I said, okay, how...
we do this?
How about we just, let's just pause for a moment.
You tell me what does success look like at the end of this journey?
And I think that is, and people love to talk about, but we forget to pause in ourconversations and say, wait a minute, what does success really look like?

(01:05:35):
that ties to the intention.
Exactly.
Yeah, where are we going?
What are we, we're in this thing.
And actually, you know what?
I had this with my dad over the weekend.
He's 93.
He has an email he hasn't used for years, but he couldn't get to it.
And he wanted me to help him.
He can't see very well.
He can't walk very well, but his mind is bright as can be.
And he's convinced that his computer is slow because there's too many emails, but he can'tget into the emails because...

(01:06:02):
his computer is 13 years old and it's not updating.
So anyway, he wanted me to get in there so he could delete all the emails because he'sconvinced they're taking up space and making his computer slow.
I told him, I said, dad, that's not what happened.
He says, well, it has to be.
I said, dad, it's not.

(01:06:23):
I said, but tell me, what do you want to do?
Why is it that you want this?
Because I could spend my entire day here visiting with you, messing around with this.
But at the end of the day, you have an email you want to delete.
And so spending the time doing this doesn't make any sense.

(01:06:43):
But that's an example of where are we going for here?
And what are we going to do?
And I think so often, I think particularly in this world we're in right now, there's somany distractions that can take you down all these wormholes that you've really got to
set.
step back and say, where's this taking me and how much time has this taken me and is itreally getting me to the end I want to get?

(01:07:07):
And that's something I'm continually asking myself as a business owner and a contentcreator.
It's something that you can spend days and days and days doing something that doesn't getyou where you want to go.
So now, intention.
So we've covered three, we've covered knowledge, focused energy and intention.

(01:07:29):
And before you say what the fourth one was, I will say they're all my favorite.
now listeners are going to be like, you already said that was your favorite.
You can't say, but they're all my favorite.
And the reason that the last one, I'm not going to say the word, is my favorite is becauseyou recommend people to read books and listen to podcasts.
I do.
The last one is about support.

(01:07:52):
What's your support?
And you know, and that is there's so much available now with support in terms of podcasts,in terms of online learning on there's just so much support that you can have.
But I also recommend that people have trusted advisors in their life.
You know, I have, I have probably three people, not probably, I do have three people thatI have relationship enough with that I can talk through things with them and they're not

(01:08:19):
going to judge me.
They're not going to tell me what to do.
They're going to ask me good
questions and that support is priceless.
And so having that kind of support, whether it's a coach or a mentor or just good friends,it's so keenly important.
And then having the right equipment to do whatever you're trying to do is also reallyimportant.

(01:08:41):
So you can spend a lot of time, even getting back to the screwdriver example, know, havinga power screwdriver can save you a lot of time rather than...
Exactly, so having the right tools.
so all those things, I think you can accomplish so much when you incorporate all of thosethings, those four quadrants.

(01:09:04):
And ah it's interesting because I always tell people, and I've worked with people thatwill circle back with me years later, and they'll say, Karen, I've got this thing.
I got this thing going on and I always say, let's go back to the model.
Let's go back to the model.
So where have you been?

(01:09:26):
And if you do it, it works.
And I know when something's not working for me, it's I've left something out.
so that's the thing.
Okay, so a couple of things.
We focus a lot on this podcast between really trying to understand what different badassleaders think the difference between a manager and a leader is and everyone has a

(01:09:51):
different perspective.
I'm dying to know, especially now in your career after doing this for 30 years, what youryour thoughts are on a leader versus a manager.
uh
know, I kind of go to the, it might be, uh might even be antiquated, but I tend to thinkof leadership around vision and people.

(01:10:12):
and inspiration and all of that.
Whereas I think of manager, management is around tasks and doing things.
And so you can have a manager that is both a leader and a manager.
And also you can have a leader that also can manage.
But sometimes leaders need to keep their hands out of the management depending on howthey're set up.

(01:10:35):
I see a leader, a leader is someone that brings people up and really, really, really
helps people grow and their actions are very much spiral impact.
Now I had an experience, I was showing up for a speaking engagement and I was in the lobbyof the hotel and I was waiting in line to check in and there was a small group of people

(01:10:57):
in front of me and this one young woman, she was so angry.
She was so angry and she was telling her coworkers, she said,
I was brought here to do photography for this convention, and he is telling me everythingto do.
He's telling me everything to do, like I don't know anything.
And it was just, she was, so her, what her leader, her boss, I don't know what hisposition was, so he hired somebody that had this expertise, and he could have said to her,

(01:11:31):
I really value what you bring to the table.
What do you think is important when you look at this project?
This is what we want in the end.
Again, the intention.
Yeah, and so how would you go about doing this?
What is it that you would do?
And that would make her feel empowered.

(01:11:53):
She would be sitting there bad mouthing him to all her coworkers.
mean, leaders have got to be really careful with that kind of stuff and really lift up thepeople that work for them and trust.
It's not that you just say blindly, go figure that out.
You want to check in, particularly if you don't know somebody very well or if they're new.

(01:12:14):
But always asking first, how would you go about doing this?
The of that too, yes, and the beauty of that is that photographer now is gonna do so muchbetter of a job.
Right.
Because they're also, you're unlocking their ability to tap into the creative part oftheir brain.

(01:12:35):
When you, you as a uh manager, you're just like, this is the task, go do X, Y, and Z,right?
Then the person who's doing those things, they shut down the creative part of their brainand you don't have that innovation and growth.
Right, right, exactly.
You know, I heard Mary Barra speak once.
um She's the, I don't know if people know who she is, she's the CEO of General MotorsCorporation.

(01:12:59):
I really admire her a lot because she came up through the same similar kind of backgroundas I did.
She started out as an engineer and then she became the CEO.
But she was speaking at the Indy 500, our 100th anniversary.
She was invited to town and when I heard it, I went immediately.
But one of the questions that she was asked is,
what do do with all these young people that think they know everything when they come intothe organization?

(01:13:25):
She laughed and she said, we love our young people.
She said, if they don't bring it up, we are always asking them, what are we doing that'sdumb?
Powerful question because when you ask it,
You're saying I know there's things we're doing that are dumb.

(01:13:46):
I just don't know what they are and Please tell us what they are.
So you're inviting that critical thinking.
Yes form that people can say, know, we're doing this and it's I don't get it and I had agroup I was working with in a hospital and it was interesting because I asked that for
this team and This one woman said, you know, we have people manning the phones in thisdepartment till seven o'clock in the evening

(01:14:12):
The phone never rings after 5 o'clock, but we do this.
We've been doing this for years.
And it turned out whatever it was for wasn't happening anymore.
So things change over time, but we don't change our processes to adapt to them.
So anyway, that's...
I love that.
Okay, so now let's talk about we've talked a couple of times throughout this journey we'vehad today about really showing our humanity that we're humans, right?

(01:14:39):
And we make mistakes.
And that can be hard to see because we often have blind spots.
What would you say some common blind spots you see even in great leaders?
You know, I think a lot of times we can assume that we know what the other people arethinking.
I think we can assume other people's motivations and what they're thinking.

(01:15:05):
I think that's the biggest blind spot.
And I know I can get in that too.
And it's that making a snap judgment based upon
a person's background, their appearance, where they work, and I think making assumptionsabout whether we agree or not.

(01:15:26):
And I've seen some really interesting things revealed over time where there's just reallya mismatch.
And people that know each other really well, I think, get really trapped into thatbecause...
uh
They think they know each other so well they can complete each other's sentences.

(01:15:47):
They don't.
They don't.
And if you've ever been in a relationship like that and caught yourself, you'll know thatyou don't.
And it's really fascinating to me.
So I think making assumptions about people that you know well and people that you don'tknow so well is...
And I think it's an easy thing to do and think it's very dangerous actually.

(01:16:13):
Also, I think that ties to one of the blind spots I often see in even amazing leaders,tying to your assumptions, is that they assume on the first pass, they understood what
everyone was saying and what they meant.
I love going back once again to Brene Brown.
learned this technique.

(01:16:34):
Maybe it was from her vulnerability video that she did or something, but the art ofsaying, okay, I really want to make sure I fully understand this.
I, when you said this, what I, the story in my head, what I think you said is this, am Ion the right track?
And then they say, no, no, no, that's not what I meant.
And I'm like, okay, great, I'm glad I asked.

(01:16:55):
Now tell me again, and you do that exercise until you make sure, you don't assume you'reon the same page, but you make sure, okay, got it.
Now we're finally on the same page.
Right, absolutely.
You're right, because as leaders, well, and I've seen, I find it pretty amazing how I cango into a group, they have a meeting, and then they depart, and nobody really talks about,

(01:17:16):
well, what's anybody doing?
What's the follow-up?
Right.
It's just kind of the same thing.
What are we understanding?
What are we taking away from this meeting?
But you're absolutely right.
I think we kind of both can, you know, I teach feedback a little bit differently than somepeople, which is I always start feedback with questions because I don't, you know, we're

(01:17:38):
sometimes giving feedback to somebody and we don't, we have no idea what they're dealingwith on their end.
And we're just making, again, assumptions about what they're, you know, because they didthis, this must be what their problem is.
And so when I worked with leaders, and I had a gal a few years ago, she had a person thatwas just really breaking.

(01:17:59):
And they had these really difficult conversations.
They came to agreement around what was going to change.
She wrote it out.
And it wasn't a punitive thing.
was just like, we're writing out...
We're writing this out so that we have a document and we both agree to it.
And they both agree to it all.
But yet the person came in the next day and my client said, well, she came in and she didthe same thing again.

(01:18:24):
And I said, well, so what are you going to do?
And I could tell she just wanted to go home.
She did not really want to deal with it.
And I said, you need to go talk to her.
You need to go talk to her and learn whether she can do this or not.
And honestly, I was kind of at the point with the person that I would be, it's time to lether go.

(01:18:49):
Because and there's obviously not a shared value thing happening here.
So yeah.
also think it's, it's, I had this idea of A.
I only fire people for reasons to where they've done damp, they've stolen, they've like,that's a fire in my position, in my thought.

(01:19:11):
Okay.
There's another situation that I think is, potentially this one is where you transitionsomeone out of the company or out of their role.
Because the reality is it tells me if that person came in the next day and they just didthe same thing that what this is just not a good fit for them.
And we need to set them up for success in an area.
somewhere else where it's a good fit.

(01:19:32):
Okay, are you ready for rapid fire questions?
I am.
I should have reviewed them earlier, but I can handle it.
No, no, that defeats the point of our survey.
Katie, Katie don't send them rapid fire questions.
oh
I thought I could rapid fire those.
Go ahead.
Alright, let's do it.

(01:19:54):
Okay, first one.
What does leaving a legacy mean to you?
You know, for me, that means that I've created this entire body of work and it's having itin a form that if something happened to me tomorrow, other people would still benefit from
it.
And I'm at a point in my career where I'm starting to do more online things that peoplecan just go watch and having that really being able to speak.

(01:20:25):
one to many in a different circumstances.
So that for me is a legacy.
And having two daughters, I want to make sure that they really understand who I was.
yeah.
Okay, up next, what's the best advice you've ever received?
The best advice, I guess I didn't see these ahead of time because I would have thoughtthat out.

(01:20:48):
The best advice I've ever received, I think that it was, you know, the best advice I'veever received actually was uh when I went up to visit, uh when I inquired about studying
engineering, it was this woman, her name was Kathy McClaningham, and she actually came tomy house, she uh worked for the school.

(01:21:12):
And she was a recruiter.
And she, and it's funny because I know her now.
She's not very much older than I am.
It was funny because at the time she seemed so old, old, old, not old, like ancient, butlike so mature.
And I was in senior in high school and she came to my house and she told me, she said, ifyou study engineering, you will never regret it and you will love going to tri-state.

(01:21:33):
And, and I, and her, her words really stuck with me.
And she's right because as much as I love what I'm doing now, I know that that base was soimportant.
for me to become who I am.
So yeah.
Call me.
uh Yes, exactly.
Okay, one book every leader should read.

(01:21:57):
They should read the Black Belt edition of Spiral Impact, the power to get it done withgrace.
not the white.
There's a first edition that's a white cover.
This has about 40 % more content in it, so you want the Black Belt edition.
Absolutely, always go for the best.
As badass listeners, you should go for the best anyway.

(01:22:19):
So just get forward to that.
And by the way, I recorded that too.
It's in audio if you're not a reader.
Yeah, it is.
It's it's on article on Amazon.
Yeah, I'm a big audible person.
Okay.
Favorite martial arts principle that applies to business.

(01:22:43):
You know it's interesting because I knew you were going to ask me my favorite quote andthis might be the same one.
Well you know what, okay no, I'm not going to use that.
I'm going to say keep moving and bend your knees.
And I don't know.
You have that in the book.
Yes.
I have that highlighted.
My book starts with that and ends with that.
And what does that mean?
It means that bending your knees naturally brings your center gravity down lower and makesyou more stable.

(01:23:09):
And moving, as I have a quote in the front of my book that is something about uh stillnessfosters clarity and movement creates knowledge, I think.
To be clear and moving is true power.
You know, it's in the front, it's like on top of uh
That's my quote.
should know it better,

(01:23:31):
I know it has your name, Carol.
Maybe it's another Karen.
I know.
They're all amazing as we learned.
So communication creates movement.
we go.
Stillness fosters clarity to be moving and clear.
This is true power.
There you go.
Yeah.
And I also want to read since you mentioned that because I had this highlighted in yourbook and listeners, is on readers.

(01:23:55):
When you buy the book, it's on page three.
If you're listening to it, it's in the section called momentum interrupted.
Yeah.
And you talk about keep moving and bend your knees.
These words echo in your head when you begin, whenever you begin a struggle, movingnaturally reduces resistance and bending knees lowers your center of gravity for stability

(01:24:16):
and flexibility, which we've talked about.
Yeah.
And so then you talk about your.
martial arts practice.
And then you say the martial art Aikido mimics life movement gives us energy andcreativity struggle and fear make us feel stuck.
The choices you make either create or stop momentum, both on the Aikido practice mat andin life and work.

(01:24:40):
So keep moving and bend your knees.
And everyday life means be flexible and ask questions for continuous learning.
you go.
There you go.
I loved it.
I highlighted it.
Yeah, there you go.
There you go.
Yeah.
Okay.
What's one habit you swear by for staying grounded under pressure?
You know, I have a meditation and breathing practice I do almost every morning.

(01:25:03):
And I am a true believer in...
And most of my clients, I start them with breathing because when you start a breathingpractice, and I do a very simple one, in through your mouth, out through your nose, and I
usually do movement with it, and it just helps you come to center.

(01:25:25):
And I spend probably a half hour every morning sitting and breathing and meditating andreally getting clearer on what I want, you know, my intention of my day and my life.
So that's a practice.
That's a practice.
And you know, we talked a lot about physics and a lot of what we've talked about isNewtonian physics.

(01:25:47):
But you know, on some level, we move into something that is more quantum physics in thiswork.
And one of the things that I like to do with my students in Aikido, and if I'm working inperson with my coaching students too, if they grab my wrist like they're going to attack
me, punch me,

(01:26:07):
What I want to do, not one way, I can be very rote, like what we're doing is spiral in.
But another thing I can do is I can just shift and relax wherever I feel tense.
And when I do that, I get their center, and it shifts everything.
So there's lots of levels in there.

(01:26:28):
And I think the more subtle you can be, because when in another practice, I could standacross from somebody and we can shift where we are.
to think about, I know Lean In was a very popular book by Sheryl Sandberg.
I hated that concept.
I still do.
It's like leaning in, you're putting pressure on something.

(01:26:54):
And what about stepping in?
Step in.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not uh I agree with you I have the book it is not one of the onesI've chosen for my podcast studio.
Okay, so If you had to sum up your philosophy in one sentence Karen, what would it be?

(01:27:16):
Distinguish the difference between force and power and own your true power.
Okay, where can listeners connect with you or dive deeper into Spiral Impact?
You know, I would highly recommend going to my website, can be KarenValensic.com orSpiralImpact.com.

(01:27:38):
And I have, you know, I do stuff on YouTube.
I've really become a fan of Substack lately, and the link is there at my website.
I also just launched my first on-demand course, and I'm going to be ending up havingsupport with that on...
substack as well.
So anything I've got going on I will always have on my website.

(01:28:01):
it's a, it's, because I keep moving and bend my knees, it continues to change, right?
Okay, that's great.
So bye.
As a reminder, always put all of these links in the show notes.
Okay.
So check out our show notes.
And while you're there, also make sure you subscribe to the podcast.

(01:28:21):
If you're one of those 95 % of listeners who are loving this, but not subscribing, goahead and subscribe and click on those links so that you can find that information.
And my final question for you, Karen, is your favorite motivational quote that is arequirement for this podcast.
What is yours?
Okay, you know that can change at times, right now my favorite quote is, don't rise to thelevels of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training.

(01:28:50):
And that was a very Greek philosopher and his name is Archelon.
Archilindus, I think is how you say his name.
The Navy SEALs use it, but it's so true because we can sit here and talk philosophy and wecan have all this knowledge in our head, but it's the practice, it's the reps that we put

(01:29:14):
in.
It's the sitting, my morning sitting, getting calm and being clear is what
it what I fall to and and so it's that practice that you have is what defines what you'lldo when things get tough so that's what I that's what that's my favorite quote right now
Alrighty, community.

(01:29:35):
I love that too.
I love that.
I used to race triathlons and so can tell you when I did an Ironman without training, itwas not as much fun as when I actually trained.
what was that?
Go!
So community, make sure you go on either Amazon or on Audible or both and purchase thebook.

(01:29:58):
Check out the website, see if you can register for the course that's coming up and thenconnect on all social channels with Karen.
Karen, thank you so much for bringing some badass to this podcast today.
m
being one badass leader to another.
engineer to another.
it!
Yeah!
Absolutely, Well, thank you so much.

(01:30:20):
No, hey, it's been a pleasure.
It's been a pleasure.
Thanks for joining me for today's episode of the Badass Leaders podcast.
To hear more interviews with industry experts and learn how to grow your career inleadership potential, be sure to like, subscribe, and turn on notifications to ensure you

(01:30:41):
do not miss future episodes.
This podcast is a production of the AGN Group.
To learn more about the AGN Group, visit our website at theagngroup.com.
There you can discover more about our services, which include hosting workshops,management consulting, brand strategy, keynote speaking, and more.

(01:31:03):
Follow us on all social media channels, shown on the screen and displayed in the shownotes.
And until next week, be brave and be badass.

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