Mark Williams: From Barstool to Boardroom, The Rise of a CEO

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
A badass leader to me is someone that runs an organization, drives the vision, actuallysucceeds on that vision, and for the most part, people want to follow them.
People want to work there.
They feel like they're valued.
You don't have a lot of turnover at work.
People literally comment, wow, I love the environment here that you've created.

(00:20):
So I think it's a leader that thinks of all of those things, which is a lot of things tothink about.
Welcome to the Badass Leaders podcast.
Today, we are lucky enough to speak to Mark Williams, CEO of Brokers International andIntegrity Managing Partner.
He is a dynamic leader with over 25 years in financial services.

(00:42):
His career spans from hands-on experience as a producing independent agent to high-levelconsulting as a home office executive, guiding agencies and field marketing organizations.
Today, Mark is at the forefront of the insurance industry's evolution.
He's passionate about mentorship and actively empowers financial professionals to navigateand thrive in this ever-changing landscape.

(01:08):
Now, before you forget, please take a moment to click on that subscribe button.
And if you leave a comment that you subscribed, I'll make sure that I personally respondto you.
It really makes a difference to us.
So are you ready?
Let's do this.
Join me, Angela Gill Nelms, on today's episode of the Badass Leaders Podcast, where I'mjoined each week by industry experts for intimate and eye-opening discussions about the

(01:35):
challenges and joys facing the leaders of today.
Listen in and get ready to scale your company, grow your brand, and unlock your fullbadass potential.
Thank you for driving into the city on a very cold Monday evening.

(01:59):
Yeah, this is awesome.
Okay.
So as classic standard, want you to tell us, introduce yourself and tell us why you'rewith us today.
Mark Williams, I am the CEO of a company called Brokers International, we're insurancebrokerage company.
And I think that if you were to ask my peer group, they would probably consider myself abadass leader.

(02:21):
The first person who was self declared themselves at the beginning of the podcast thatway.
I would say that, but I think others may say that.
And so I was intrigued by the podcast and thought, that would be fun.
I love that, know, several of the episodes when I've commented, you should add this toyour LinkedIn or whatever that you're back.

(02:44):
And it's so funny because most of the guests are like, yes, I should do that.
So you're just bringing it home from the very beginning.
I love it.
OK, straight in.
So let's talk a little bit about, you you started.
Tell me if I'm right on this.
You started in the industry, the insurance space, like as this is like a family thing thatyou came through.

(03:04):
Right.
Can you tell us what your journey looked like?
Yeah.
So first of all, know, my father passed away in October at 83.
His entire career, thank you, but his...
was a long time coming, so it was good.
His entire career, insurance.
So I grew up, in fact we used to joke, my second grade, I had a presentation to give inthe second grade and it was how to fill out a life insurance application.

(03:29):
So my mother owned a property and casualty agency, my sister works in the insurancebusiness, I have been in financial services since I was 21, so 35 years now.
was an insurance agent, then I became a manager, then I got married and didn't want tolive on commissions, so I went and worked inside a home office at an insurance company.

(03:53):
That led to two or three promotions, another insurance company, a third insurance company,two moves across the country, and in 2011 I was tapped on the shoulder to run a
company-owned distributor, one of their own distributorships, so that was my first venueto become a president.
And for the past 12 years now, I have run Brokers International as a CEO.

(04:16):
And so my career, although I never sat down and said I want to be a CEO, it just, mycareer path just kind of weaved and bobbed.
And eventually I was running a company.
So did you ever sit down and say I want to be in insurance or did this never occur to younot to be an insurance then?
I was bartending at the age of 25 and I was lost and I just did not know what I wanted todo.

(04:43):
I was in the service so I did not go directly to have a degree so I was going to school atnight and I was just didn't know what I wanted to do.
And my dad said you should get into the insurance business you're a people person you canmake your own hours you can still go to school.
And so it fit.
It fit for a short period of time and it worked and I did well enough where I was doingmore than I was making more than when I was bartending and I was had better hours and all

(05:09):
that.
And so no, I never sat down and said, I wish I was in the insurance business.
And in fact, if I were to do it all over again, I'd be a mechanic.
Okay, first off, okay, before you say what I'm gonna, I want to know, tell me more onthat.
But I also was just thinking, did you, I've talked about this on some of my times I'vebeen interviewed.

(05:29):
I'm an engineer, but when I was in high school and the Air Force suggested I should be anengineer, I was like, absolutely not.
Engineers are nerds, they wear pocket protectors, they have tape on their glasses, like Ido not fall into that category, right?
So before we hear about the mechanic, because I want to hear about that,
Was there ever a moment growing up, you know, between second grade where you wrote thatinitial application until bartending school where you're like, I absolutely am not going

(05:57):
to be in insurance?
No, not really.
I was really fortunate.
My dad did well.
We were middle class family.
Like I never wanted for anything.
We took vacations every year.
It provided for our family.
And he used to say that a lot.
Like we're a family that every Friday.
What are you thankful for?
What are you looking forward to?
used to say that.

(06:17):
I love that.
And so insurance, like the financial services business was very good to my family.
So I never had this negative connotation about it at all.
My dad was a sales guy.
And it was, no, so the answer is no.
It never struck me as, I'm not gonna do that.
I don't know that I could work with my dad.
Like we were a little oil and water that way.

(06:39):
But I definitely had his support and a lot of his education and knowledge and mentorship.
And so just worked out.
yeah, no.
So when I'm stressed, I work with things with my hands.
I'm a cleaner.
Like when I'm really stressed, I clean.
And I think I clean.
did the same thing by the way.
think it's because
an immediate gratification, right?

(06:59):
You control something, you walk into a room, it's dirty, you control it, and the outcomeis it's clean and you feel satisfied.
So I work with my hands.
I'm a car geek, love cars, have several of them, love to work on them.
And I think that if I had been exposed to that earlier,
I love working with my hands.

(07:20):
My wife used to say you should have been a farmer, because I like hard work and I like tosee the fruits of my labor.
And mechanic was always fun.
I bought a car that couldn't drive, got it to drive.
There's something, huge accomplishment to that.
So I'm toying with the idea of possibly opening a little tiny garage.
So yeah, I think if I could do it all over again and money wasn't an issue, which italways is an issue, I would have probably tried to be a mechanic.

(07:46):
That is that is really cool.
I'm glad we slip we slip that in there.
Yes Okay, so so you obviously you took a very non-traditional path to CEO and that you youstarted as an agent, right and then moved your way throughout it so you basically The
individuals are like I have filled every single role and hat now I truly understand whatyou're going through you kind of fulfill that so

(08:11):
Let's hover back to that first statement you said because you said your team members oryour colleagues would call you a badass leader.
So we're just going to dig right into that.
So what is what is your definition of a badass leader?
What do think their definition is?
I think there's leaders and there's managers.

(08:32):
And I wrote about a book about this, so we'll chat about that in a second.
I think as someone who runs an organization, your job is to set the vision of where youwant the ultimate, the company to look like three years from now or five years from now or
eight from now.
You're steering the ship the long term.
And you have to convince everyone else that that direction is right.

(08:55):
Like this is number one somewhere I wanna work.
We care about our employees, we do have a vision, and you put your words into action.
And I think a badass leader to me is someone that runs an organization, drives the vision,actually succeeds on that vision, and for the most part,

(09:18):
people wanna follow them.
People wanna work there.
They feel like they're valued.
You don't have a lot of turnover at work.
People literally comment, wow, I love the environment here that you've created.
So I think it's a leader that thinks of all of those things, which is a lot of things tothink about.
and someone that isn't just out to make money or just out for the bottom line or, and Ithink people feel that.

(09:42):
And I know it's a buzzword today, but authentic, transparent.
I think that's how I run the company and I think people would second that.
All those things together, I guess.
Yes.
I am grateful for that definition from you because I'm always curious what individualsthink.
And I agree.
You know, I'm really, I'm actually really, really, really grateful that the podcast so farhas been such a hit and we are booked for a couple of months, which I did not expect.

(10:07):
I'm also a little tired and exhausted.
It goes in and in.
And one of the things is, that the nice part of it is it's easy to say no to individuals.
And I have people reaching out and they're often reaching out to a badass leaders podcastand they're reaching out with just their numbers.
And they're just saying, I've sold this and my response back is that's really great.

(10:32):
But this is about us later podcast.
Tell me about your leadership style.
Tell me about, know, how you've built cultures or how you handle conflict or how you dosome of those things.
So we're going to talk about a couple of those things.
Yeah.
And I'll give you one great example.
So the company that I'm running now was founded by people that lived out in a community of700 people.

(10:54):
Okay.
So the office was 45 miles west of Des Moines in a very small town and one stoplight inthe entire town.
95 employees, the majority of them were from farm communities.
Old building, long story short, about seven years ago we moved the company 40 miles.
So for people who had no commute or very small commute now had over 45 minutes to an hourcommute, that was the first.

(11:21):
I would say a lot of four letter words about you that would not be nice words if you weremy boss and did that.
This was a company that for 32 years had been, was out there in the small community.
So we moved the company and it was the little things we thought at first.
The office has to be really fantastic for the employee because we're asking them to drivea long way.

(11:42):
So we installed sit stand desks for everyone, electronic desks.
Everyone had two monitors.
Everyone had, they got to choose the chair of choice as an example.
Break room with TVs and games and.
things that they weren't used to so that the environment was an environment that waswelcoming for them.
They came a long way.

(12:02):
We worked with the city of Des Moines Bus Rapid Transit where a lot of the people couldcarpool in a van that they got from the city and we worked with that and subsidized that.
So we attempted to think about all of the reasons to keep someone instead of having toturn over staff and we really wanted those employees.
And I will say that out of 96 employees, we only lost two in that whole transition timeperiod.

(12:27):
I'm super proud of that.
But I think it's the idea of thinking about your employees and what this is actually doingto their lives and trying to address it in the best possible manner where everyone wins.
That I think is a badass attribute.
When you really do think about what's the best thing for the employee, I've worked forcorporations where you walk in and everything's this mauve weird color and everything just

(12:50):
looks the same.
There's nothing, they say that employees mean something but they really don't.
It's a value they wrote on their wall and that's where it stopped.
where it stops.
I mean, I'll start there, knowing, spending time with your employees, knowing youremployees, that's a whole nother topic we could talk about, but understanding what your
employees go through on a day-to-day basis and turning that into either actionable itemsor PTO or we do dog days, for example.

(13:20):
We bring a dog into the office once a week, one dog a week, and it's from the employeesand there's rules around it, but that's like one thing that the employees wanted, we did.
So we have an employee council, we listen to our employees.
So that's the first badass thing is I pay attention to who works for us.
How long have they been here?
What do they want?

(13:40):
What do they expect?
And we listen and we do as much as we can to accommodate a lot of what they ask.
So I wanna...
pinpoint something you said on that because oftentimes we get a lot of especially youngleaders and first time CEOs and they think, okay, I'm going to go after what Silicon
Valley is done and I'm going to put in a whole bunch of ping pong tables and I'm going todo all these things.

(14:04):
what I want to pinpoint is the reason you selected these things, okay, because there's adifference between creating a flashy office with a whole bunch of amenities because you
want to be cool and flashy and
be like this other company, there's a difference between that.
And what you said was listening to the employees, thinking about what they go through.

(14:28):
One of the values that we have at the AGN group is seeing humans as humans.
And that means thinking through they're going to have to make these sacrifices in theirfamily.
Maybe they need flexible hours when they come in or whatever that looks like.
not doing it because it's the cool thing to do.
Doing it because it is what your team members need in order to have a successful

(14:48):
day and to be successful at your organization.
I'll label that as appreciation.
It takes effort to appreciate people and to let them know they're appreciated.
Goofy things, and I can give you 20 different things that we do.
In the summertime, in the middle of the summer, we run somewhere over to Costco and we buya whole bunch of ice cream bars and we walk around on a cart and just hand out ice cream.

(15:13):
Like no reason whatsoever, it's a Tuesday at two.
You might show up on a Friday morning and we pass out raffle tickets and we raffle offprizes, goofy things, a Starbucks card or a gas card or something.
Our employees said to us just before the move, we're gonna have to be waiting for rapidtransit, sometimes we have to carpool now with people, so can we have some things that we

(15:37):
can do?
besides sitting at our desk.
And that was kind of the games, right?
So we brought in a few games, we brought in some TVs, yep, sit in the break room, watchsome TV while you're waiting.
It wasn't a, let's be cool.
It was, hey, our employees are asking for something.
This makes sense as long as it's not abused, great.
And so we did that and we got a lot of great feedback from that.

(15:58):
So that little bit of appreciation, I think goes a long way.
We do, again, I'll give you little tips and advice.
I do an open mic.
So once every month, we schedule 30 minutes of time where the employees can come on withme on a Zoom call, and it's 30 minutes of anything talk.
They can ask me questions about the company.

(16:18):
Usually we don't, we talk about who's watching what on TV.
Yeah.
something or celebrating something that somebody did.
We're invested in just being people and knowing about our people.
And I think that really, that probably sums up that whole badass appreciation.
We're giving you 30 minutes of time just to shoot the just just to chat.

(16:40):
Yeah, yeah, no, I love that because also I've worked at companies where the leaders say, Ihave an open door policy and they don't.
And it's once again, okay, let's actually put action steps and make it super easy byscheduling it and you're automatically on it.
Then absolutely that is amazing.

(17:01):
It reminds me when we were building Florence Healthcare as we started really scalingduring COVID.
when we had new employees, we couldn't take new employees out to lunch and really get toknow them.
So we started doing new employees Zoom lunches.
I was really forcing all the executives, you need to be on there.
And what we would do is then we would also tell little funny stories of like the stupidstuff we did in the early days so that some of the new people saw us as humans.

(17:30):
And they were also in on the inside jokes, which they loved, right?
It was just a cool bonding.
And it was the best we could do during COVID.
But it also was this reminder of as a leader to stop thinking about the things holding youback.
Instead, think about, OK, here's where we're at.
We need to move for whatever reason you guys needed to move.
OK, how can we set the company, the team, the individual up for success?

(17:54):
Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned the lunches thing.
So we actually have it built into our budget every year.
I don't want to say we require, but we heavily emphasize managers and leadershippositions, taking people to lunch on a regular basis.
And they have to include people from other departments.
Now we're not a massive company.

(18:16):
Now is this a one on one lunch or multiple people?
They can do it on, it's up to the manager, right?
So let's say there's a new employee and you just wanna take that new employee, you cantake two or three, so it's up to them.
I usually take new employees, I always take out to lunch, it's called the new employeelunch and we'll get, usually we do it in three month batches, because we don't get a lot

(18:36):
of new employees.
But for them, as long as they're once every few weeks taking members of the company tolunch.
And it's not a business lunch, although it can be.
It's again kind of an open format.
I want people to know the employee.
If I were to walk through the office, I know most of my employees' names, I know theirpets' names, I know what they do on the weekends, I know their hobbies, and I think

(19:00):
stressing that to new leaders, understanding your people are people, and most people workto live, they don't live to work.
I'm convinced that most people want a really nice environment.
They want to work hard.
They want to go home and live their life.
People aren't working to live.
I mean, they're working to live, they're not living to work.

(19:21):
And those people want to feel valued and appreciated.
And again, I think it goes back to that.
And if you wake up every day thinking to yourself, do one thing that your employees willknow that you appreciate them.
Yeah.
Even if it's even if it's honesty in our financials, we have a quarterly meeting at townhall every quarter and we walk through literally are we making money or are we not?
Which department is which one isn't?

(19:41):
Where are we?
Where are we falling behind?
Where are we ahead?
The initiatives that we work on.
We give grades as to as to how well we're doing on them.
So we're I think we're as transparent as a company can be to our employees because everyone of those people that works for the company contributes to that.
And I want them to feel that way.
Well, and especially in this day and age where we have these conversations that

(20:05):
Simon Sinek talks a lot about this on his podcast.
It is not meritocracy.
I actually was just recently working with an organization where the leader would use thatterm a lot.
And then when they did mass layoffs because they didn't raise funds, it's like, that's notthe definition of a meritocracy.
That's a definition of balancing the budget by removing payroll so that you can continue.

(20:28):
That's a very different thing, right?
So don't say these two things together.
And I think
Having the transparency, for example, in finances, in these areas, you can also say, okay,well this area, we're not making as much money.
How can we collaborate?
Anyone have creative ideas, how we can collaborate and bring in maybe some other ideasfrom other areas and because we're gonna go up together or we're gonna struggle together.

(20:52):
I love that idea.
In fact, years ago, we had a program, I don't know if it's still around actually, so it'sreminding me to think about it.
If an employee thought of an idea that saved the company money, we would give a percentageof the savings back to them.
So any idea, so if it was saving less on buying paper, or like literally any savings yougot a percentage are travelers.

(21:19):
We have quite a few people that travel quite a bit.
And let's say that they're going to Arizona from Des Moines and they say, hey, I'd like tostay the weekend.
my flight's this much cheaper, can I get a hotel room on the savings?
Like that kind of thing, 100%.
So I want you to think about what you're spending, because it is our money, not yourmoney.
So any idea that either creates more efficiency in the company, creates a savings loss, oreven an investment that will save me in the long term.

(21:49):
100 % that should be applauded, it should be rewarded, we reward and recognize on aregular basis, that's a whole nother conversation we can have.
But to your point, when everyone is rowing in that direction, everyone thinks that way,wow, this would be better for the company if we did X, and that idea bubbles up, you can't
ask for anything more, like that's the perfect scenario.

(22:10):
And not only is that amazing for your company, but how amazing is that for that individualin developing their leadership skills to look for those things and document those things.
Like I'm a big believer in keep your LinkedIn update, the things you're proud of, go aheadand put it up there.
You save the company $10,000 by doing X, Y, and Z.

(22:31):
Brack about it.
Exactly.
Put it up there.
Because also I think that what it's hoping by focusing on that, it's helping that futureleader.
learn the value of it.
They may be a future entrepreneur themselves, somebody else on their team might be, andyou're actually just kind of giving them business school lessons that they're learning in
real life.
You bet.

(22:52):
I think everyone sees everything.
Everyone sees their perspective first in every situation, right?
So no matter what, in any situation, you're always gonna think of, how did this affect mefirst?
And then maybe it's onto someone else.
I think as new leadership, you're so caught up in doing the things you're supposed to do,right?

(23:13):
I have to forecast, I have to do my budget.
There's things that you have to do, and then you start to learn
There's things that you do sometimes that you don't have to do, but they'll make lifeeasier for you.
Or you will make the meeting 10 minutes longer and give an explanation that's a little bitlonger to give context to people that need the context.

(23:35):
That's probably one of the best examples is there are lots of things that I take forgranted that I know.
I know more about the company than probably anyone else.
And sometimes I have to provide the feedback or the extra context so that someone elseunderstands the way I'm thinking and why I'm thinking that.
When you're young in management, sometimes you do the knee-jerk easiest thing to do, orI've got to accomplish this first, and you learn over time that sometimes the shortcuts

(23:59):
aren't really short.
Right, right.
Sometimes pausing to sit back and evaluate the landscape and then make a decision or evenmake a decision that you my my big thing is making a decision and say we're going to
experiment with this path because we strongly believe this is going to be the case andwe're going to put a 45 day limit on it.

(24:20):
We're going to experiment and then we're going step back and see if that's really going tobe successful for us.
Super thrilled you mentioned that.
We talk about this a lot.
We did a two year project and it was all me.
We wanted to invest in future technology.
We spent $2 million and 19 months building an infrastructure of technology.

(24:41):
It didn't work.
It literally didn't work.
And of course I went in front of the company and said, let me share with you our 18 monthexperiment and why it didn't work and why we're closing it down and who takes full
responsibility for spending $2 million and 18 months of their time, the company's moneybecause now we learned a lot so don't get like every mistake.

(25:05):
you can learn something from.
But it was really important for me that the company knew that I made the mistake.
That I went out on a limb, this was my idea, I pushed it, they worked on it for a longtime and it went nowhere and this is why it went nowhere and it's my responsibility.
I got more positive feedback from that.
Me sharing that, yep, I made a mistake and it was a big one and it cost us.

(25:29):
Just that, just being open and honest about that, yeah.
I'll save it for later, but that has to do with the quote that.
yeah, the end quote, yes.
So really for listeners, if you're not counting, the second way we're going to go aheadand list out that Mark Williams is a badass leader is that he owns up to, he takes the

(25:50):
challenge, the mistakes, the challenges, and he owns up to it and he's vulnerable in frontof his team, which also allows all those team members to say, wait, I can take a risk at
something and do my absolute best.
And if it fails,
I can then come and own up to it because my great leader has done that and reflected whichscience shows that they are more willing to take the right risk and put their all in when

(26:20):
they know there's that safety zone there.
Failing forward and it's amazing and you're probably a little closer to science than I ameven.
It's funny because scientists, that's all they do is fail.
You have to fail to succeed, right?
It's the light bulb a thousand times and the thousandth time it lights.
And yet in business, we don't look at it the same way.

(26:40):
you fail.
Well, it wasn't really a failure.
I opened a business and it didn't do well and I had to close the business.
Well, it really isn't a failure because you learned a lot and you don't know what you'velearned is gonna help you somewhere
down the road.
I think we view things in a really sometimes a horrible light of saying that is a failure,it isn't a failure, you failed forward.

(27:00):
Yeah, you gave it your best shot.
What'd you learn from it?
Most importantly, what'd you learn from it?
Yeah, we like to say instead of failing fast, really growing fast.
Yeah.
Because that's the way that you grow fast.
And in my day job, I run by velocity.
We were just recently talking about this and working with other entrepreneurs.
We want the ones that are coming in and giving advice to the new entrepreneurs.

(27:20):
We want ones who've also experienced failure because just because someone has been luckyat their first company that they've built does not mean they're going to be lucky.
The future ones, right?
And I know in
and I think you will agree with this, that we learn so much more from our failures.
So those opportunities are our growth fast opportunities.

(27:43):
Those are the things that were then, I was just on a call with a team today and we'regoing over stuff and they're using some words and I'm like, whoa, wait.
we're not gonna say it that way because if you say that that way in front of us, it'sfine.
If you say it in front of a VC, they're gonna be like, you're gone, right?
And of course their response is, you're not VC, you're not, and I'm like, I know, but Iwant you to change the way you think in your brain and you say things to your team.

(28:10):
Because if you're working in front of, so for listeners, if you're not in theentrepreneurial space, VC is venture capitalist.
If you're looking to get funding from someone, you don't know if later in the fundingcycle,
during due diligence, if you say things that have this little twist that are not, I'm notsaying you should lie, but you absolutely don't want to use these phrases because then

(28:32):
someone who doesn't know your industry really well, when they hear this word, it's a noimmediately.
It's going to be a, yep, it's a check mark.
Right.
So it's some of those things to get to understand, you know, the things that we're saying,the way that we're putting things out to our teams, that we're encouraging them, that
we're taking ownership, that we're thinking them.
So you showed how you see people as humans and show appreciation.

(28:56):
You showed that you can be vulnerable and own your mistakes.
Let's dig into some others.
I want to hear how you do conflict.
I've been on this big conflict resolution thing lately.
So first my management style, think I'm relatively, I'm a collaborator at heart.
I want to sell my vision.

(29:18):
the first thing I want is for people to push back.
I don't need yes people.
I need people that say, all right, I hear that.
Are you worried about this?
Or could this potentially happen?
I need the naysayers and I need the devil's advocate for sure.
I'm an incredibly opinionated person and I need you to push back so I can convince myselfand possibly change my mind.

(29:41):
So I'm a collaborative person.
If there's a phrase that I use at work all the time, you'll never hurt my feelings as longas it's not personal at work.
Just don't get personal.
If you disagree, I need you to stand your ground, but I need you to explain to me why youdisagree.
I don't believe that's a conflict.
I believe that's healthy.
That's a resolution or coming to terms with something or the advantage of being a CEO isthere are times you get to make the decision.

(30:11):
Yep, I heard all of this.
This information, I'm still convinced that we're going left, not right.
Conflict is interesting because depending on who you're having conflict with and what thatconflict is, I think there's lots of different definitions or different ways to handle it.
If you're having a conflict with your.

(30:32):
upline, meaning you're manager and now you have to manage up.
Depending on their personality, you may have to be really careful.
right.
Oftentimes it's put your pride in your pocket and just walk away.
You're not the boss.
And although you may be right or think you're right.
It's not an opportunity to butt heads.
It might not be.

(30:52):
With your subordinates, it's very similar as well.
You don't wanna be the hard ass, excuse my French, right?
But you have a conflict with someone.
The best way in my mind, much like sales, is to try to get into the mindset of the otherperson.
Explain to me the conflict.
Right, early on in my career, we had two employees that were sitting next to each other,their workstations were next to each other, and one person were lots of lots and lots of

(31:19):
cologne or perfume.
And it really bothered the other person.
That's a conflict, an interesting one.
Now, most people would say that's HR, and I don't want to make a huge deal of it, but wehave to come to a conflict.
We have to come to a resolution.
One employee's really disturbed, and the other one doesn't even know it.
Right.
That's one of those conflicts where, let's understand from both sides.

(31:43):
Turns out we just explained that this person is really sensitive to smell, any smell, eventhat's a tuna fish sandwich, the cologne that you're wearing, tissues that are scented.
Can we ask as a favor either that or can we possibly move the person?
There's a resolution here.
It's not necessarily that big of a conflict.

(32:04):
Let's not make it a huge conflict.
But I think if you start with,
I wonder why you think what you think.
I'm curious as to what you're thinking or how you're thinking.
And maybe we don't have a conflict at all, or maybe we can just agree to disagree and moveon from there.
And I think that's a really tough lesson, especially in, I would argue in today's timeswith everything being so divisive.

(32:27):
I can respect your opinion and still disagree with it.
I can even think for you it's right.
And for me, it's not right.
I can respect that.
And I think in the world today,
Everything is a conflict and I don't think it has to be.
I think that one of the missions that I have, and this may be my first book that I write,I don't know, because I'm doing lots of research into it, but one of my missions is for us

(32:53):
to basically kind of redefine what the word conflict is, because it has this negativeconnotation in general to it.
And if,
individuals learn how to have healthy conversations that grow towards collaboration andcohesion, then that's the conflict that I want to.

(33:15):
So it's kind of like when we think of like badass, it still pops up on things as if it's acuss word.
And to me, it's being the absolute best you can at something at that particular day or asa team, individual, as a company.
That's what that means.
And so I think for conflict, is there are some
bits of information, there are some personalities, there are some things that aren'timmediately cohesive and it's sitting there and having those transparent conversations and

(33:42):
listening to each other and saying, okay, Mark, so what I heard you say was this, did Iunderstand what you really meant by that?
And allowing you to say, no, no, and that's not what I meant, what I meant was this.
What I've seen over the years is that if teams and individuals and especially in theexecutive suite can learn how to do that and can model that, then the end result is

(34:08):
amazing.
And I would rather have that than the individuals who think, well, I disagree with this orI cannot stand the smell of this perfume or cologne or...
this, that, and the other, but I'm not gonna say anything about it because I may upsetsomeone and I'd tread on waters, Bottling what healthy communication and conflict looks

(34:31):
like.
that resentment will bubble up for sure, right?
Whenever you suppress anything.
I go to be really direct, when I go into a conflict resolution situation, people, everyoneneeds to realize that you're not always going to get your own way.
That's number one.
You you may disagree and it's okay to disagree.
Again, that's where sometimes being the boss is a value, right?

(34:52):
I get to I get to say this is what we are going to do.
And this is the rationale behind it.
And whether we like it or not, this is what we're doing.
But as long as you go in really explaining where you
got to your point and I think I'm pretty good about this is what I'm thinking, this is whyI'm thinking it.
I'm curious about your opinion, let's talk it out.

(35:13):
At the end of the day, we may just do it as a test.
I may decide let's wait.
But I think almost every conflict, as long as you're willing sometimes to say, yep, I waswrong or hey, I don't see it that way but I'm willing to acquiesce today.
Well, I'm thinking too.
and we're not pertaining to say, once again, show appreciation.

(35:35):
You know what, I bet that was hard for you to bring to me.
Thank you so much for speaking up.
And I said that today in a call they were on and someone blurted out some frustration.
And towards the of the call, I said, thank you so much because I can't stand when peopleare thinking things in their head that they're super frustrated.
And I said, I'm so grateful to you that you said this so we could walk through this.

(35:56):
And the change in the look on his face.
and just like, I felt as if I could see his whole body.
He took the vest off.
so once again, it's seeing that individual as a human and it's showing that appreciationfor them allowing you to have a moment to become better together.
And as you were talking, I was thinking of criticism, which has a very interestingconnotation, much like the word conflict.

(36:22):
When you're providing criticism, it's actually usually a positive.
It can come across as a negative.
And I'll give you an example.
It happened to me years ago.
went to hear someone speak about their company.
They were presenting things about their company.
And he was a horrible speaker, horrible.
I was sitting next to the CEO of that company listening to his employee explain and he atlunch came over to me and said, so what did you think?

(36:48):
And I said, well, if you're asking me, I'm going to tell you, but buckle in.
And as long as I can be candid.
And he said, that's why I'm asking.
And I said, your company sounds fantastic.
I wouldn't buy anything from that dude.
Cause half the people weren't paying attention.
He's just, he's not selling anything.
He's just, he's sharing information and it's really boring and it's really dull.
And you have a pretty cool company.

(37:09):
All right.
you need to work on that, someone's gotta give them criticism or you gotta find someoneelse.
That was me giving direct feedback.
Criticism, I think he appreciated the directness, he appreciated the, I was very candid.
Now whether he does anything with it or not, whether he was offended or not, he didn'tseem to, but he asked and I made sure that I gave it.

(37:31):
I actually love that when someone comes up to me and says, you know,
I heard you speak, I really wish you hadn't have said this, or I wish you had done it thatway.
100%, I really appreciate that.
I'd much rather know that.
Maybe I said something incorrectly, maybe I positioned something wrong, maybe I used aword that I shouldn't use.
I'm 56 years old, right?
And the kids say something else, I said something to offend someone.

(37:55):
So it really is positive and criticism is much like conflict.
Most people want it, it's very difficult to take.
And yet it's framing that as being, hey, I'm trying to help you out.
Like the criticism is a good thing.
It's not necessarily a bad thing.
So very similar to that.
well, I think I think both of them the other similarity is that there is an art todelivering and receiving in both situations.

(38:20):
And I think that's one of the things as we have a lot of young entrepreneurs who arelistening to this podcast.
And when you're thinking about how to handle these things, so much is in the delivery.
And and also what what is your motive for both of these as well?
Right.
Is your motive that you really want to see the company

(38:41):
succeed, which sounds like that was the case in your example, or is your motive just to bea jerk and say something?
know people who they're just going to say something negative just because it's Monday andMonday is extra double negative day or something like that.
Right.
Right.
It's funny because I'm going back to like just the badass concept.

(39:02):
I think a lot of people get into leadership and they think I need to lead with a stronghand, right?
Like this is what I think, this is my way.
Do you know who I am?
That kind of thing.
Did you see my title on my business card?
I think you alienate way more than you get.

(39:26):
And I think true leadership, people that really, when they're gone or the company, and youthink back to people that just made a difference, or they they led with their heart first,
there's leaders like that that people just aspire to be or wanna be around or be with.
And I think it's the brand.
I talk a lot about people's brand.

(39:48):
Know your brand, know who you are, and if you don't,
like what you are, change it.
But it's so important to know who you are and what you stand for and make sure thateveryone sees exactly what you see.
Absolutely, so we do coaching on personal brand.
actually working with, I've already said it in earlier podcast, I'll go ahead and say it.
My cousin right now is having us do work on his brand with him and that's the fun part ofwhat is part of building a brand.

(40:14):
You often need to in the early stages, look at a lot of words and say, which of thesewords resonate with me?
And one of the things that I was saying is he was looking at them.
I said, okay, look, look at the words that resonate with you now.
Okay.
And also we're going to pay attention to the words that you want to resonate with you.
then let's pause and sit back and say, okay, a personal brand needs to be authentic.

(40:39):
It needs to be who you are.
It needs to be consistent throughout.
So we're not making you into Superman all of a sudden, we're just going to highlight whoyou are and ensure that you're being consistent in all areas and, and give you the
opportunity to say, wow,
I really want this to be a part of my brand and I'm really not honing those skills.

(41:00):
What do I need to do to learn how to improve my communication, improve my storytelling,improve some of these things that may align with who I am as a brand?
I love that.
I think that if everyone thought about what people thought of them, people wouldoftentimes act much differently.

(41:24):
Tell me more.
So that's one of the first things I tell people about, you know, what is your brand?
The easiest way to find out your brand is find someone that will truly tell you the truthand just ask them, what do people say about me behind my back?
That's your brand.
I joke about it a lot in my presentations, but everyone knows that at Halloween, everyoneknows the house that gives out good candy.
That's their brand, right?

(41:45):
If you were to ask, that's the brand.
Well, if you're the person that people are afraid of, if you're the person that no oneasks questions to, maybe you're the go-to person.
Maybe you're the subject matter expert in your department and everyone flocks to you.
That's awesome if you're that person.
How do you work?
How do you make that even broader?
Maybe you are the person that everyone sees as a leader and you're not a leader yet.

(42:06):
Maybe you're the person that is kind of a jerk and you don't wanna be.
Maybe you're just shy and introverted and so you don't open up a lot and so you're justthe person that people just don't talk to.
How do you change that?
do you understand who you are and how do you make those little little changes?
And if you're happy with who you are just let people know that right that'll be part ofyour brand right and I think it's important for a leader especially as you go into

(42:29):
leadership What is your brand?
What do you what do you stand for and today?
That's what do you do on LinkedIn?
It's the places you go.
It's the people you see it's today Our worlds are so under the microscope that you reallyhave to be careful about who you are and be honest with who you are
And as long as you are that person and you're fine with being that person, whatever thatis, that's fantastic.

(42:53):
But I think it's important for a leader to understand who he is or who she is, what thatbrand is, and what does your persona or personality, because oftentimes as leaders, our
organization takes on that flavor.
love that, I love that.
And to be clear, not in a way that you're.
paranoid constantly about what people are thinking about you.
So if listeners, if you heard that and your red flag went up on that, that's not whatwe're saying at all.

(43:15):
It's being cognizant and aware of what you're putting out into the world and making adecision.
Is this what I want to be putting out into the world?
And if the answer is no, then what do I need to do to put within myself first?

(43:35):
Because you should always start with yourself.
What growth areas do I need within myself and skills do I need to acquire?
Do I need to work with the therapist, which I would say everyone yes.
Do I need to work with an executive coach?
I also would say to everyone yes.
So what are those things that I need to do to continue to grow?

(43:56):
I think the best leaders that I know are leaders who are constantly learning andconstantly growing.
And no one's like, I have
I am now an absolute expert in leadership.
Yeah, 100%.
Listen, if you're an athlete, you realize that you're always learning, right?
There's always someone that can either shoot the ball better, lift more, run faster.

(44:18):
What else can I do to make myself a little bit better?
People are the same way.
My mother's a huge reader, my wife's a huge reader, and she'll soak up anything she can.
She loves to learn, which I'm super envious of.
Anything.
We're building, right now we're building a sink out of an old dresser.
And we've never done.

(44:39):
Okay, so you're gonna put the basin inside, you're gonna cut out?
and I've never done that before and so we're both learning and you can just see it likeshe has a thirst for knowledge.
I love that and I think people see that.
When you invest in yourself, people see that you're investing in yourself.
Go to a workshop, go listen to someone else speak, go understand, go sit in on one ofyour, I'm not an IT person at all.

(45:01):
Oftentimes I will sit in on what my IT team is doing simply because I want the education.
I need to understand it.
I need to understand what they're working on, number one, just as the CEO, but also
I want to understand their world.
I want to understand what they're working on.
What are the what are the pluses and the minuses of it?
And the only way to do that is to invest some time there.
So yeah, constantly expanding your head is kind of way I think about it.

(45:26):
Just constantly amassing more information can only be a good thing.
one of
things I just realized recently because I love to listen to different podcasts, especiallyin the morning when I'm getting ready.
And part of that selfish, right?
Like I am watching their podcasts, the ones that I like, and I'm taking away certainthings like, I really like when Simon does this or Mel does this or, know, just another

(45:50):
good one.
Yes, exactly.
Just insert the podcast hosts.
really love when they do this.
Okay.
But the other thing that just really occurred to me the other day.
was there are a couple, and these were actually a few Mel Robbins episodes where I thinkone of them dealt with negative self-talk or something like that, right?
And I almost scrolled past it because I thought I really don't have negative self-talk.

(46:17):
And I thought, oh, I don't need to waste my time on that.
And then I scrolled back to it because as a leader and wanting to work and help
everyone on my team, thought, wait, if I listen to this and I first off understand whatthose individuals who struggle with this are going through, and I also hear what these

(46:39):
experts say as advice on how to improve this, then I am improving my ability to kind ofsit in there with people that I've never really thought and spent time to do.
I love that, I'm thinking of my own personal vulnerability.
I'll share a somewhat personal story.

(47:00):
Up until probably the last number of years, had I met you, you and I could have aconversation for 30 minutes, you would know very little about me, but I would know a lot
about you.
I can control a conversation very easily, ask a lot of questions.
And I wasn't very open, I didn't.
Yeah, didn't share a lot of personal stuff.

(47:22):
And working with a therapist for a number of years, I realized that in order for me tobuild relationships that really matter, that really matter, including with my employees
and the people that I surround myself at work, you have to share something personal.
You have to be a little vulnerable.
And I will share with you that the last two or three years of my life have been so muchmore meaningful and fulfilling for me as an individual.

(47:49):
just sharing a little bit more, being a little more vulnerable about myself.
Ooh, don't, know, this hurts a little bit, or I got my feelings hurt, or I really wish Ihad done that, or hey, I just really enjoy your company, I'd love to go have a beer with
you.
Those small things that I would have never done three years ago has changed, think, numberone, just the way I feel, but I think even as a leader, I think I've become a better

(48:11):
leader because of that.
So just that little bit of kind of learning something new, being vulnerable, understandingwhat that can do and what that can provide has been, has literally changed my outlook on,
I don't want say the world, that's a pretty bold statement, but it has changed my life tosome degree.
Which is fantastic.

(48:32):
And I think again, a better leader for it.
Yeah, and I think a lot of individuals who are aspiring to be great leaders need to hearthat because in there also is the difference of oversharing.
And, you know, I've done that before gotten and usually that happens when I'm superstressed and exhausted and something insane has happened and it's just like out there.

(48:55):
Right.
So none of us are perfect.
I'll go ahead and mark myself as not being perfect today.
But I think that not but
And I think that being and showing your imperfection and showing those little snippets ofpersonality, the people once again see you as a human being.

(49:16):
And the world is a better place when humans see humans as humans.
100%.
And especially in leadership, I think you find in leadership, oftentimes the roles areintimidating, just the title.
So there are people that are, I think you learn when you're in leadership long enough.
Some people, it doesn't bother them at all.
Like they don't see the title, they treat you as a human being, they know you put yourpants on one leg at a time.

(49:40):
And then there's others that because you have the title get very, very either nervous orself-conscious.
We had a holiday party and had a brand new employee that walked up to me and go,
you're the boss boss.
And you could tell their nervousness a little bit.
And I literally looked over and I said, it's okay, like I'm just like you.
Like I get nervous too sometimes talking to new people.

(50:03):
So it's okay.
Like it's funny.
And I think you learned to navigate that a little bit just over time.
But it is something that when it first happened, it took me by surprise.
Like I really wasn't sure.
So realizing what someone else is going through.
Again, part of that vulnerability and just being connected to somebody and having someempathy with people, I think, goes a long way.
Well, I also want to tie back to the whole title thing.

(50:27):
And, you know, one of the things I think great badass leaders do is they also have theability to make every single individual feel like a human.
I like the leaders who know the Jander's names and
You know, I just started my new job and I know Mohammed is the individual who cleans myoffice over at Emory.

(50:50):
And I know he's also really upset that it's a new building and people keep scrunchingcereal into the carpet.
So if there's anyone from Emory and the health science research building and you're doingthat on the first floor, Mohammed, please request, request he stop doing that.
But I think that is it.

(51:10):
I recently went to an event.
and someone who's a leader of an organization, I was introduced to this person, and theydidn't make any eye contact with me.
They were busy saying hi to everyone else, but as they were saying hi to me, I, Southern,I thought, this is really sad, but the beauty of it was I experienced that.
It reminded me what it feels like.

(51:31):
You bet.
To not feel important to someone who's standing in front of you or around you.
I'm glad you mentioned that and the phone is a huge bad habit for lots of people.
I have to constantly remind myself if I'm at a lunch or I'm at a dinner or I've just satdown with you and asked you for 10 minutes of your time.
the phone has to remain in my pocket or I can't tell you how many times I'm talking tosomeone and literally in the middle of us talking, two people literally face to face

(52:00):
talking to each other, someone pulls out their phone and reads their phone.
And it's not anything contributing to the conversation, it's just that they have to checksomething.
The feeling that it...
gives you being on the opposite end of that.
And I understand that lots of people in positions have hundreds of emails and lots oftexts and lots of phone calls, but if you're sitting down with someone, give them your

(52:20):
attention.
It's a struggle for me, admittedly, because I'm much like everyone else addicted to that.
I'm really good about replying quickly.
But I am consciously making an effort and people do pay attention to that today.
And so to your point about I'm really careful about even walking into the building andthere's three employees that I'll walk by.
If I say hello to one, I need to say hello to the other two.

(52:43):
Because someone might say, ooh, he likes them but not me, right?
So you have to be conscious of those things.
How do I make people feel?
And sometimes that can be tiring, but I think to your point, it does matter how you makepeople feel and you do have to be conscious of it.
And it's just one of those things that you have to pay attention to.
secret to anyone who doesn't know this.
When you smile and authentically greet someone and say hi, it makes your day better too.

(53:09):
You've made their day and it makes your day better.
I know there was one company that I was, think I read this in a book and they were justtalking about that part of their rules were if you got within this many feet of someone
you had to say something to them.
It was just like- That's super cool.
Yeah, we're teaching you that if you get this close, you have to.

(53:31):
into excellent customer success and customer branding on that way as well because when youget used to doing these things in one environment and you see the benefit of them then you
start spreading them into all environments then we talk about how amazing that is.
We had a campaign years ago where our customer service people that were on the phones hadto ask one goofy question while they were on a call with a customer.

(53:58):
All right, so, oh, what are you having for dinner tonight?
Or what's your favorite candy bar?
Or it had to be something just totally that would stop the conversation.
we had so much, like again, one of those things that we started to do and we don't do itanymore, but you get a lot of mileage from that, right?
Just having a conversation with someone, asking something goofy or,
So yeah, much to your point.

(54:20):
Well, because here's little tip or trick you can do.
When I was building Florence, we were working with a hospital up in Seattle and somethingcame up about favorite candy bars.
I know in the intro we had everyone go around and say their name like my Angeligal Gnomesand my favorite candy bar is a Snickers.

(54:41):
And so I had taken notes on that.
And then when this particular person did like enrolled really fast or did somethingamazing,
and I sent like a really big Snickers bar to them.
Golden.
Right?
Personalized anything golden.
was just like, got, trust me, anytime I needed anything from them, I was the first one.

(55:04):
Not because I didn't use that as a trick, but I was just like, hey, I see you and I'mappreciative of you and it pays off.
Okay.
So A, I want to talk about the book that I'm not sure how I didn't know that you wrote abook.
So we somehow missed out on that because usually if I interview someone who's an author, Iread their book first.

(55:24):
So that's a miss.
a huge promoter of it, but lead don't manage.
And it's the 12 steps for management.
I'll share why I got into it.
For years and years and years of being in leadership, there's one demographic division ofleadership that's overlooked and that's not a lot of training.

(55:46):
And I always told this story.
You got into middle management because you were one of the first few people in thedepartment.
You did your job really well.
You knew the ins and outs of the job.
As the company grew, they needed to expand your department.
They hired someone else and you had to train them.
And so now you have a team of four or five and you became their manager.
because you knew the job really well.

(56:08):
Well, you might not have ever been given management skills.
you know how to conflict resolution?
Do you know how to have a difficult conversation?
Can you have a performance review?
Do you know how to motivate someone and not have it be money?
Are you empathetic to people?
Someone's dog died, it, well, you have to be here or is there a little empathy?
Oh my gosh.
That could be a member of the family for some people.

(56:28):
So you might learn a new skill or might go to Excel class or learn this on the computer,but no one talks about the softer skills
the people skills.
And so I wrote this book on 12 ways to manage someone, to truly lead, not just manage.
You're not responsible for their PTO, which is what it feels like as a middle manager.

(56:48):
Where is everyone and are they on time?
That's not really your job.
And so there are things that you can learn, we're kind of circling back to just makingyourself better.
Just 12 easy things about, and it's even sometimes about you.
You might be blocking your team.
One of the greatest lessons I learned.
Oftentimes we are the ones blocking our own way.

(57:12):
I just wrote about this recently.
My team years ago came to me and said, you're our problem right now.
You think that everything that leaves this company has to have your stamp on it, andyou're slowing us down.
Much appreciated.
And they were 100 % correct.
I had to learn to give up give up some of that control.
So all of that is.

(57:33):
So that's the book.
You can find it on Amazon.
It's and we'll talk about how to
get a hold of me.
And we will also include the link in the show notes.
Fantastic.
If you haven't already sent it to me, you will go home and send it to me.
This is your homework, Mark.
You have homework.
So speaking of books, though, one of the questions that we did have was what's a podcastor mentor who's made a huge impact in your leadership?

(57:57):
Yeah, thanks for asking.
I'm a big podcast person.
So recently I stumbled upon a podcast from David Duchovny.
And if those of you that remember the X-Files, he's an actor and he was in CaliforniaCajun, I believe, and some other things.
He has a podcast called Failing Forward.
I love it
Here's an incredibly smart person.
He went to Ivy League school, is a writer, has written a few books, but has had a lot ofstruggles in his life personally.

(58:24):
And he talks about that.
And he talks to people about failing.
And he has all kinds of people, actors, employees, presidents of companies.
It's really interesting to hear someone else's opinion or their own opinion of wherethey're
was?
and what failure was and quite frankly how it changed them and what it did for them.

(58:45):
So I love that podcast right now, I'm kind of into that.
You mentioned Simon Sinek, I'm a big fan of Simon Sinek and so I listen to his stuff alot.
I do try to listen to, my wife and I are into murder mysteries so we listen to them, butthat didn't help my career any.
Well, let's hope not.
There's Richard Branson.
I'm a virgin and I kind of follow him.

(59:06):
He's a risk taker.
He's not braggadocious.
There's things about him that I admire.
And so there's, I would say that that's one that I follow and interested in.
I love it.
So speaking of success and failures, can you if you were to sit here and you could onlypick one or two pivotal moments in your life that really changed your trajectory towards

(59:32):
success, what would you say they were?
Number one, I always tell the story 100%, this was it.
I was working for a company, maybe a year in, I was 29 or 30 at the time.
I'm sitting with my peer group.
Doesn't matter our titles, but we were all the same title.
were in a room and we were brainstorming with my boss, with our boss.

(59:52):
And someone said something and someone said something else and I looked at him and I said,that's just a stupid idea, that won't work.
Like that is not gonna work.
35 minutes later, meeting's over, my boss says, do you mind sitting back for a minute?
And I said, no.
And she said, everyone left the room, and she said, you know, I love the fact that youhave opinions, and most of the time you're right.

(01:00:13):
And she said, but boy, you have really horrible delivery.
you
said, people listen to you and your opinions matter, but she said, boy, you really don'tknow sometimes how to deliver, and she said, let me give you an example.
And she used the example of me saying that was a really dumb idea.
She said, well, first of all, so-and-so spoke up and gave an idea.
So the fact that he gave an idea isn't a bad thing.

(01:00:35):
That's a positive.
You want that.
And she said, although you're right, you could have said something like,
Wow, I understand why you would think this, but maybe we should try that.
Or, hey, I understand that, or I get that, but this is why I think we might struggle withthat.
She said, it's not what you're saying, you're probably not wrong.
It might not have been the greatest idea, but it was an idea nonetheless, and boy, youmade him feel bad, in front of his peers.

(01:01:00):
And because to him, all he heard was, you think I'm dumb.
And so that is, I will tell you that I think about that interaction that I had with herfour or five times a week, every single week.
It literally changed the way I thought about how I was, how I spoke.
Oftentimes I will literally stop myself and say to myself, what's the best way to saythis?

(01:01:22):
It was by far the best professional and personal advice anyone ever gave me.
And I applaud her over and over and over for taking the time to stop it, to stop me.
Yeah, to say something.
So once again, that was a conflict moment that you're grateful that
grateful conflict, criticism, constructive criticism, communication, everything in thatone lesson.

(01:01:47):
It literally has saved me probably in 1000s of conversations.
But the real-
is that I am one of those people, one of the things that I love about Simon's podcast is abit of optimism is that I fall into that category that I truly believe that humans for the
most part are good and want to do good.

(01:02:07):
And I also believe that when these type of events happen, there are often many differentreasons, like the individual may be struggling with something at home, or they have all
these things because they're humans.
passionate about seeing humans as humans.
And then also I think that many times individuals just aren't aware of how they comeacross.

(01:02:34):
100%.
And if they don't have someone who can in a compassionate way sit them down and say, Iwant to see you succeed.
Yep.
And this is something that's really going hold you back.
Let's role play a couple of different ideas.
on how not only could you have answered better, right?

(01:02:55):
But how you really could have then gained a collaborator.
You could have gained trust.
All of these things.
100%.
This is reminding me, I have a 19 year old son and he recently got his first waitering jobat a restaurant.
And he said, dad, any words of advice?
And I said, well, you.
That's cool that your 19 year old son asked you for words of advice.

(01:03:16):
Just throw that down.
And he said, yeah, I'm serious.
And I said, well, give up the cussing.
You cuss a little too much.
it's a reflection of who you are, and I said, number one, you're gonna be working withservice people, and you're gonna be helping people and assisting people.
I said, so it doesn't sound nice.
You may offend someone, and it isn't good for you, like your brand, right?

(01:03:40):
It's just not something that you, I said, you can do that with me, like, all right, athome.
And he really appreciated it, like he actually said to me, I do need to think about that,I don't wanna give off a bad impression, especially serving people, so yeah, like that, it
literally reminded me of that.
in which the manner in which I gave it was, hey, I cuss on occasion, it's not a bad thing,but it's something you have to be aware of.

(01:04:03):
And so that's one of those situations where I hope that worked for him.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's super fascinating.
So one of the things that I noticed moving and I've pivoted a lot in my career indifferent industries as I've moved on.
And when I went into software development, that is when I really picked up cussing a lotbecause you have all these developers next to you, right?

(01:04:25):
And they're they're doing all this code and then you hear all these.
words.
Exactly, right?
Right?
I remember it was so funny because it was really when my daughter was, my daughter's 22and it was when she was going through middle school and high school and then she told me
in middle school that she was not going to say her first cuss word until she's like 32, Ithink.

(01:04:48):
And I was like, A, that's great.
B, why did you pick that A?
Where'd that come from?
Exactly.
And then the other thing is people then would say a cuss word in front of her and theywould apologize and she's like, no, that's okay, have you heard my mom out here?
And so for a while I didn't really care about that, right?
And then maybe about...

(01:05:10):
a year ago or so, I also am big into brand and stuff.
And I was just like, you know what?
I just got into this habit because it was the environment that I was in.
So once again, a reminder as leaders, if you want to grow as leaders, surround yourself byother amazing leaders so that you can absorb that.
So it was this environment that I was in and I picked up these things and I just never gotrid of them.

(01:05:33):
They're doing me no service at all.
Now, do I occasionally say a few words that are not awesome?
But it is very rare now at this phase.
So if someone knew me eight years ago versus now, they would be shocked.
They would, you know, say, OK, you're not, you know, and it doesn't upset me if someoneelse says things, but I do I do pay more attention.

(01:05:53):
People pay attention.
back to like that was a, so that conversation that my boss had was probably one of the bigones.
The other thing that happened in my career early on, someone told me about being visible.
And they said, volunteer for anything.
Like if they're looking for someone to do something, you be that person.

(01:06:15):
Make sure that everyone knows you're the person, right?
Be the subject matter expert or in something.
Be the person that people go to for something.
Be as visible, especially if you work in a big company.
In a big company, you have aspirations for doing more.
Whatever that means, either more responsibility, move to another department, become aleader.
Make sure people know who you are, be visible.

(01:06:36):
Be the first person to volunteer, be the person that gets in early, that stays late,that's dependable.
Again, back to the brand, what do you wanna do?
And get yourself positioned for the right place at the right time.
And visibility is one of them.
Okay, so how do you advise and consult people on how to balance this visibility and theway that you've outlined it with boundaries and also not being the person that is then

(01:07:05):
once called for everything.
And so you, don't believe there's such thing as work life balance.
I believe we go in phases, but that you, also lose yourself in the process or you loseopportunity, like those types of things.
How do you balance them?
Yeah.
of it.
For those people that are charting their path, there are people that literally chart theirpath.

(01:07:27):
I wanna become a manager, I wanna become a division leader, I'd love to be a president.
That's a different motivation, and for those people, you have to work hard at that.
It isn't one of those things where you're the first one, you're the last one in themorning and the first one out.
Those things, you do have to invest in your career, which means reading the periodicals,asking questions, asking someone higher up than you to be a mentor.

(01:07:54):
Those things do take time.
There's always time for yourself.
think we make time for the things that are important.
So if you told me that, I wanna be the subject matter expert, take a book home and read.
You'll find a half hour somewhere.
You can balance the rest.
But I would also say that part of your brand, you don't want it to be the person thatworks 90 hours a week.

(01:08:16):
that isn't putting in because that's, especially as a leader, I've seen that, that can beas much of a detriment in an employee as the other.
Being aware that there are other people that need to volunteer.
You do need to work with other people.
So it's a conscious effort of am I bow guarding everyone's time?
Am I the one speaking too much?

(01:08:36):
I think most people feel that.
I think you can feel that.
What I mean by being visible is take credit for things that you did really well.
Yep, I was on that team.
some of the obstacles and we overcame them.
Come up with ideas even when you think you're wrong, right?
Be the first person say, well, what about this?
You don't have to do that.
You don't have to be the person that always talks.

(01:08:57):
But I think it's important for people to be visible.
And being visible also could mean that you're relying on other people and you're makingpeople.
You know, I didn't know this.
I went and sat with Kathy and Kathy explained this to me.
And I'm really appreciative of Kathy taking the time because now you guys are coming to meand I actually got it all from Kathy.
Right.
Like that little bit of acknowledgement to someone else, even though they're still comingto you because you learned it, that's a conscious effort to be the person that you want to

(01:09:23):
be at work.
Well, once again, you're now showcasing that you're a phenomenal collaborator and peoplewant to work with you.
And I think that's part of the visibility part, right?
Is you want to showcase your work ethic, that you can learn new things, that you have aget after it attitude, that you can work well with others, that you can lift others up,
but that you're also going to take credit for the things you did really well.

(01:09:45):
Yeah, and take the time.
I'm in a situation, so the company that I run, we were purchased by a bigger company, andwe've been purchased by them now for about three years.
And positively, they're not in my business very much at all.
I think it's because we're running really well and we have some good results, but if Iwant time with my boss, I have to set that.

(01:10:10):
Yes.
So I actually make a concerted effort every year to have, fact, two days from now I'mflying to go see him, because I wanna make sure I'm being in front of him.
So it's a concept, I could go for probably another year without anyone calling me.
I wanna make sure that I'm being visible, that I'm delivering the message on the companythat I want delivered.

(01:10:33):
That's a conscious effort for me to be visible with him.
He isn't in the same state.
We don't see each other quite often and the company that owns us owns lots of companies.
So unless I'm speaking up and letting them know who we are what we're doing, I could getlost in the shuffle.
So that's a conscious effort.
Now am I doing it every week?
No.
I'm not that person.
I'm not sending him emails all the time, but I'm making sure that he understands whatwe've done.

(01:10:57):
I have to brag a little bit about where we are, what we've done, what we're working on,that I wanna be a part of something else, right?
So that's a conscious effort to be visible.
And I think that takes time and practice.
Absolutely, you know, one of the things I was thinking of is that I see that skill appearto come more naturally from the individuals on sales teams who are kind of raised up

(01:11:18):
through the sales ranks, because you're kind of taught that along the way, right?
They need to see you and think of you with the brand, with the product and buying it forus, right?
And at the same time, we have plenty of people in our organization who are not fulfillingthose roles, but they're fulfilling other roles and the value of being visible, being

(01:11:39):
active.
also I think maybe there's a hidden twist in there in that by being visible, you want tounderstand more.
You want to learn more.
You want to be more engaged because it's more than just booking a plane ticket and showingup somewhere.
You're going to do more
to prepare ahead of time and afterwards than just that, which is so cute.

(01:12:02):
glad you mentioned that I'm going to give a give a one of my chapters away.
It's the best three sentences of my career that I learned early on before you do anything,anything, go to a meeting, go to a client visit.
Anything ask yourself three questions.
Why am I doing it?

(01:12:23):
So if you're making a trip, why am I going?
Yeah, why are we having this meeting?
Why am I doing this?
The second thing is what am I going to do while I'm there?
Final question, most important, what's my expectation when it's done?
And if you ask yourself those three questions before you travel to a customer, before youbook a meeting with your team, before you have a lunch with someone, if you ask yourself,

(01:12:48):
am I going?
What am I gonna be doing there?
And what is my expectation when I leave?
It will further your career, make your time management much better.
You'll not do things because of those three questions.
It's one of the greatest lessons I learned back to lessons learned.
Ask yourself three questions and you'll be amazed at how much more productive you willbecome even personally.

(01:13:11):
I was gonna go take a ride and do this.
I can do that.
So three questions, you go.
Free little chapter of the book.
Yeah.
And then you can go in the show notes and get the link and go and buy a book.
You know, for that third question, my favorite thing to say, everyone I've worked with wholistens to this podcast is going to die laughing right now.
Cause they're, I'm going to pause.

(01:13:32):
Okay.
You guys can all say it in your head.
Okay.
Um, I always say what a success look like.
Yep.
And that is in a meeting and everything.
And it's just like, let's go ahead and say what a success look like so we can confirm.
We're moving in the trajectory towards success.
We're on the same page.
And at the end of the time, we also are like, yay, we did it.

(01:13:52):
Or we're not quite there yet.
And now this is our follow up or these are action steps.
Yeah, love it.
So is there anything Mark, you really hope we would cover that we haven't covered?
mean, there's so much to talk about.
I mean, you know, asked me from the get go, I'll just go full circle.
Why do I think I'm a badass leader?

(01:14:12):
I will sum it up by saying because I think of all the things we talked about.
because everything that we talked about at some point in time goes to a leader's mind oraction or it's, you have to be conscious of.
And the more of these things that we talked about, you can think of and act on andappreciate the better leader you are.
And so, no, it flowed really nicely.

(01:14:34):
And so, no, there wasn't anything that I have left out or that I thought was missing.
I it.
love it.
Okay, so how can people find you?
We will include in the show notes, but go ahead and tell them.
markwwilliams.com, that's my website.
And so the book, you can find the book there.
You can find a little bit of information on me.
I do some speaking, so you can inquire that way.
I'm on LinkedIn, so Mark Williams, Brokers International on LinkedIn.

(01:14:57):
And those are probably the two places that I'd give.
And then Brokers International, so we are B-I-L-T-D.com.
Love it, love it.
Okay, now is my favorite time.
It is share your favorite motivational quote.
So what do you have for us, Mark?
Short and sweet, if you're not making mistakes, you're not working.
I love it.

(01:15:17):
Definitely ties forward back to the failing forward or growing forward or that mindsetthat like if you're not making a mistake, what are you doing?
You know, I cannot remember who it was.
This is gonna be terrible if it was Thomas Edison or Albert Einstein, like someone of thatcaliber.
Somebody can tell me whatever they're building burned down and they looked at it and theirfavorite favorite quote was, well, now all of our mistakes have been burned up.

(01:15:46):
I love that.
Yeah, if you're not working, you know, it's the old, you know, the old Babe Ruth, he hadthe most home runs, he also had the most strikeouts.
If you're afraid to make a mistake, then you have to tell your boss you weren't working,because no one's perfect.
And so I expect mistakes, I just don't expect the same ones over and over.
And I think you build a culture of people wanting to try stuff.

(01:16:09):
So that's my quote.
Yeah, yeah, I bought for one of my employees once these she would over analyze things tothe point where I'm just like, okay, come on.
Yes, yes, exactly.
And she was afraid of making mistakes.
And so I gave her these I bought these socks that said something like

(01:16:30):
it was a rocket ship on the socks and it says something, I have a picture of it somewhereon my way to my next big mistake or something like that.
And so the following week, I don't know, she made a mistake on something.
I don't know what it was.
And I got this post it on my desk on top of the mistake.
And she's like, okay, you asked for it.
Here it is.
I still have that post it by the way, it's down in my exercise room and I have it withsome others that team members have given to me because it just brings me joy to see that.

(01:16:57):
We're good for you.
Well, Mark, thank you for bringing the badass for sure into this podcast.
I'm really grateful.
thanks for.
Thank you.
Thanks for joining me for today's episode of the Badass Leaders podcast.
To hear more interviews with industry experts and learn how to grow your career andleadership potential, be sure to like, subscribe and turn on notifications to ensure you

(01:17:21):
do not miss future episodes.
This podcast is a production of the AGN Group.
To learn more about the AGN Group, visit our website at theagngroup.com.
There you can discover
more about our services which include hosting workshops, management consulting, brandstrategy, keynote speaking, and more.

(01:17:43):
Follow us on all social media channels shown on the screen and displayed in the shownotes.
And until next week, be brave and be badass.

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