Sophie Badré: Peaceful Leadership in a Multicultural World

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I don't care about your title really.
If you're a leader, doesn't mean we know what your intent is or what we could actuallyrelate to according to your interests or passion.
I think that's what I love, sharing expertise and experiences and that's what makes peoplegrow and develop multicultural mindsets.
uh

(00:49):
Sophie brings rare, deeply human insights to what it means to lead in today's world.
Her work with organizations like L'Oreal, the UN, INSED, and Cartier blends strategicthinking with emotional intelligence, helping leaders reconnect to their authentic selves
and create meaningful, sustainable impact.

(01:12):
Okay, if you're new to the podcast, welcome to our community.
I am thrilled that you've taken time out of your day to learn
and grow with us.
So before you forget, take a moment to click that subscribe button to ensure you stayconnected with the Badass Leaders community.
So join me, Angela Gilnell, on today's episode of the Badass Leaders podcast, where I'mjoined each week by industry experts for intimate and eye-opening discussions about the

(01:40):
challenges and joys facing the leaders of today.
Subscribe, sit back, and get ready to scale your
company, grow your brand, and unlock your full badass potential.

(02:01):
So why don't we welcome you to the show, welcome you officially to the Badass Leaderspodcast.
And as I normally like to do is say, hey, why don't you introduce yourself and tell thelisteners why you're with us today?
Hi, and thank you so much for hosting me.
I was born in Versailles, France, and I have dual citizenship, French and Canadian,actually.

(02:27):
And I can effortlessly operate in any culture in the world.
And I'm a multicultural leadership uh coach, and I encourage leaders to actually explore aworld of responsibility, challenging assumptions and cultivating.
um
a curious mindset and becoming powerful communicator.

(02:49):
Love it.
Love it.
Why don't we I love first off and and I will say this isn't a question we sent you aheadof time, but it should be easy enough.
I like for the listeners to get to know everyone as human.
So can you tell us a little bit about maybe growing up your family situation or whatreally and then what really inspired you to get into the peaceful leadership that we're

(03:15):
going to dig into today?
So I was raised in a three generation family of pilots.
So that's actually uh totally influenced my life since an early age.
I traveled everywhere in the world and I've worked for global companies throughout mywhole career.

(03:35):
And I was born in Versailles, France.
My mom is from the South of France.
I have two amazing artistic daughters.
And I was raised near the forest and near the castle and very close to Paris.
And I basically worked in multicultural environments through my entire life.
And whether in Paris, New York, Miami, Montreal, Tokyo, Singapore, Abu Dhabi, and Itraveled the world in very non-traditional ways, bringing a very nuanced understanding of

(04:07):
cultural dynamics to my work, but also to my life.
I always work with people speaking English with an accent from somewhere, which madeeverybody different.
And I've always been taught to go to different people and people who do not like you, donot look like you.
And so that we can cultivate a multicultural mindsets and differences and embrace them.

(04:33):
so I basically, you know, my, my late motive world is adaptability.
I navigate transitions smoothly.
And that is what I help people to do now, also navigate their own transitions smoothly,embracing complexity and ambiguity.
And actually I, you know, work with so many different people from different cultures andmindsets.

(04:58):
And I had bosses from uh India, the U S Canada, France, Bulgaria and others.
And so I kind of adapted to any situation in any parts of the world.
And I actually, funny fact, discovered my own culture when I moved to New York working forFrench companies, which was also interesting.

(05:21):
I can't wait.
I can't wait to hear.
So first off though, I want to know what airport in the world is your favorite and whatairport in the world is perhaps one you don't really love to travel through.
I love Mumbai airport.
It's so epic that I really enjoy the diversity, the welcoming, the warmth.

(05:43):
And I just love the smell and everything.
Every time I stayed there, it's like, my God, I'm in India and I just love it.
in what airport are you kind of like, yeah, not necessarily my favorite.
You Parisian airports?
oh

(06:05):
I love it.
love it.
know, back when I not traveling like you, but back when I work in Medtronic and I traveledone year, I had I think 110 or 112 Delta flights.
And I used to tell people, okay, in the US and in some parts of Europe, these are myfavorite airports and this airport seriously like the airport that I can think of is in

(06:29):
think Springfield, Missouri, where they open
security right before your flight and your only option to eat is the subway right there.
I'm kind of like, yeah, this is not my idea.
Fun.
But okay, let's dig in.
I want to start a little bit more as well about learning about you.
I know that you have been to every continent, including Antarctica.

(06:52):
So before we dive deep, what would you say, and I know you've done leadership on most ofthese continents as well.
What would you say a surprising?
lesson you've picked up somewhere totally unexpected.
So they were actually many, many different lessons from different countries and differentunexpected contexts, I would say.
um One of them was in Nicaragua when I was distributing school supplies to South Americankids and Central American kids.

(07:19):
And I was very amazed by how the schools were managed by the directors of the school.
That's not the one I want to talk about, but it's just like an example of how you canactually.
develop your leadership skills in totally unexpected environments.
um There was another one ah in uh Australia where this leader had to announce veryunexpected and tough topics.

(07:45):
And I was very surprised by his leadership style and asked him, how come you so quiet andyou seem very relaxed after announcing what you announced?
he said,
I've been doing meditation for the past 40 years at four o'clock in the morning every day.
And actually the experience I wanted to share was something that really struck me.

(08:08):
It was in Versailles where I was actually born.
It was in the grand royal stables of the palace of Versailles, where in a very uniquesetting where all the, you know, they have this national equestrian academy of horses and
It was, I was the guinea pig of an experience of leadership with horses.

(08:29):
And actually I was in the middle of the stable and the psychologists and the experts said,the horse is going to tell you all about you and your leadership style.
And I love horses, but I'm scared of them.
And I was in the middle of the stable and he said, you cannot touch the animal.
And just by the sound of your voice, the horse has to follow you.

(08:53):
and then we'll analyze the situation.
And I was like inside, my God, like sweating and shaking.
uh so I...
right now, like I don't, I would, I would, I'm picturing myself as you're, you'rementioning this and I'm picturing myself in this situation.
mean like one paranoid, I immediately, when you start talking about this kind of paranoia,like what if the horse doesn't follow me?

(09:16):
Does that say that I'm no longer a bad ass leader?
Exactly.
So they send actually signals without filters and that's how they use them.
And I thought maybe they were raised in a certain way so that they would act, you know,like in a circus.
Absolutely not.
So they said, you cannot attach them, touch them, nothing, just the sound of your voice,the tone of your voice.

(09:36):
And I was like, how am going to do this?
I started talking to this horse that was obviously like twice my size at least.
Finally, he started to move around and follow me and I didn't dare talking too loud and myvoice is low.
And so I don't have like a very impactful voice.
And finally he turned around with me and turn and turn and it worked.

(09:59):
But this minute sounded like ages.
finally, and everybody's looking at you obviously, but you forget about time.
You forget about people and you forget about who's around.
You forget about your surroundings.
And finally they stopped me after very long minutes.
And they said, you know, they debriefed and said, this is how you act.

(10:20):
If you come to like a new setting, people, you start looking at people, you don't reallytalk much.
And then all of a sudden you target somebody and then people come to you and they respectyou and they trust you right away.
And I was like, my God, I was scared to death.
And maybe you saw it.
And I was like shucking.
And the guy said, absolutely not.

(10:41):
We didn't see anything.
You hide it very well.
And I was like, really like, so this is a perception, like I didn't have that perception.
And it was totally unexpected.
And then they had other people try the experience.
And even if you were like a horse expert, didn't necessarily work the same way.
And then I asked, did you have bad experiences with leaders who came to that experience aswell?

(11:07):
And he said, actually, we brought into the stable.
a CEO and everybody was scared of him, but he didn't know that the team was thinking thisof him.
And he stepped in the middle and then the horse was so scared, the horse jumped over thefence and left.
And I was like, that a true story?
And they said, yes.

(11:27):
Wow.
There was no filter.
So the animal doesn't lie.
And so it was like a very unusual and unexpected experience, but it really marked theterritory of like.
where can I go to and what's possible and the perception and interpretation of your ownfeelings and thoughts of how you feel versus what people think of you.

(11:50):
This is so amazing.
Okay, so for listeners, anyone in the US that wants to do this experiment with your teamand invite me, I wanna come, and I really am thinking about it and thinking what an
amazing opportunity to also learn more about the gifts that you have so you can amplifythose, gain more.

(12:13):
Also, I love that she said that she couldn't tell.
that you are nervous because I see this in people a lot.
They think that everything that's going up on their head is visible to the world.
And often people are not that focused on every single shake we do with our hands.
And then I think the other thing is also observing, okay, what did not resonate well andwhat can I learn from that?

(12:40):
Exactly.
So what I could learn definitely is be more gentle with myself for sure.
Yes.
We always set high expectations about what should be and we have a vision of what could bebetter or what we should improve.
But in fact, what you feel is not necessarily what people see.

(13:01):
And so the it's like be humble, be gentle and um you're enough, I would say, like somebodyelse said.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, you are enough.
We don't give ourselves enough grace oftentimes.
And I like the idea of talking to ourselves the way we would talk to a dear friend.

(13:22):
And when we think about that for a dear friend, we give them so much grace.
And then we're so hard on ourselves.
so I absolutely love this.
Okay.
Let's talk about peaceful leadership because that's one an area right now that you're anexpert in and very passionate about.
And it's really what inspired you to be a guest on this podcast when you and I met thatday and you started telling me about it.

(13:46):
I thought, OK, so many different individuals in the world, especially women, need to hearyour story.
So what inspired the birth of peaceful leadership and kind of was there a defining
when you realize this work really needed a new kind of leadership or the world needed anew kind of leadership.

(14:07):
think it was not born yesterday.
I'm finally connecting the dots after like uh half a century, I would say, deciding thatat this point of my life, I choose peace uh above anything else.
think Meryl Streep said that once and I think it resonates well.
And I also was invited at a conference in Bahrain recently to talk to women at a women'sconference about leadership and um

(14:35):
uh peaceful leadership came from peaceful coexistence that they created in Bahrain, whichI thought was very intriguing and interesting.
And I thought that resonates really well.
think the world
Now, where is behind in the world for listeners like myself who are horrible withgeography?
Can you kind of level set us at what area of the world you're in for that?

(14:58):
Bahine is between Saudi Arabia and Qatar.
So it's a little island and you go from one place to another through bridges and it's anisland.
It's very small in the Middle East and it's actually a very beautiful country in themiddle of the Middle East.
So you were asked to come and speak or attend and be at this Women's Leadership Conferenceat the small island in the Middle East.

(15:26):
uh
Yeah, and actually, I got inspired by their peaceful coexistence um creation.
And it says actually, they affirmed absolute freedom of conscious in Article 22 of theirconstitution.
And I was like, wow, east and west towards human coexistence.

(15:47):
also the location, geographically, it's really between east and west.
And I thought, and they do so many things for women.
I was very inspired and I don't think you need to be authoritative to actually lead.
And you can do so many things much better, smoother, not because we're women and we candefinitely be badass leaders, not using force, but using kindness and uh listening skills

(16:16):
and being conscious of what is.
Absolutely.
And I think that to me, that's what defines what a badass leader is, know, an individualbecause it's someone who goes in and they're participating in a journey with those people,
not being forceful and driving towards this, but participating.
Okay, so you define peaceful leadership as daring to care, creating sustainable impact andleading with responsibility and wisdom.

(16:45):
So in a world driven by urgency and ego, how does one begin to embody this kind ofleadership?
So there's a French philosopher uh who is called Jean-Paul Sartre.
You might have heard of him.
He said, man is condemned to be free because once he's thrown into the world, he'sresponsible for everything he does.

(17:08):
So according to him, according to this author, human beings are fundamentally free andhave the power to determine their own existence.
And I love that philosophy because it's the freedom of both um
blessing and a curse as it gives individuals the power to create their own lives and shapetheir own destinies, but also impose a tremendous burden of responsibility.

(17:32):
And for me, it's like being responsible and care to their yes, because you have to beresponsible for your acts and non-acts actually.
And I just want to bring more humanity to leadership and put human beings at the center ofleadership.
So how do you embody this now, like in the world today?

(17:52):
Cause the world today is, would venture to say maybe even especially in the U S the, thechallenge with ego and making decisions based off of ego is pretty prominent.
So how do you, in today's world, how do you manifest this?
I'm just hoping to increase by peaceful leadership, increase leaders' consciousness aboutresponsibility and so that they become aware of their impact and the benefits of peaceful

(18:23):
leadership as a whole.
And a world of urgency, yes, but it's more understanding the consequences of making fastdecisions and speed can be a competitive advantage, but it could also
be something that's not necessarily thought through.

(18:43):
And so if we become or you become responsible and aware of your actions, you don't need tonecessarily be speedy about responses, but you need to be conscious about what's key.
What's key meaning what are your priorities?
um It's not about rushing or acting uh recklessly.

(19:05):
It's about recognizing
when actually a quick action is needed or not.
And it's a balance between, I would say, speed and deliberation with yourself and with ateam.
Like, do you need to do speedy things?
But sometimes for market reactions, you have to, but sometimes it's better to like let goand also learn to let go and what needs to be kept and what needs to be let go.

(19:32):
um
Of course, you have to also understand what crisis management means.
And if you have a plan set in place for that, or um it's the decision-making process thatwhat's important, but you don't have to do it like in a speedy way.
And ego, it's a big question, right?
It's like, I think it's like taking the risk to be responsible, but what does ego mean?

(19:56):
It doesn't mean you have to ignore it.
You have to embrace it.
No, there.
But that's the issue most of the time.
If you're an egocentric person, do you know that you're an egocentric person?
And do you realize the impact of being an egocentric person?
It's more like the ability to trust and inspire others and adapt.

(20:21):
That would work and encourage leaders to lead with inspiration, not authority.
So early on when you were just talking about this, you mentioned the benefits of leadingin the peaceful process like you're talking about.
Can you list for the listeners?
Because some listeners might say, you know what, I don't have time to slow down.

(20:43):
I don't have time for a peaceful.
I just have to get shit done.
So can you say that I was trying to think of a different way to say it, but come on.
So can you share, so kind of bring them in and say what's in it for them.
So what are some of the benefits that you've seen from this?

(21:03):
listening, listening, listening, and empowering others, clarifying your leadership intent.
You don't have to like, uh you know, when you say you have to get things done or shitdone.
You don't necessarily have to actually have a big ego to do this.
You have to actually use others or like the skills of others to get things done properly.

(21:28):
yes, you well, you don't have time, but you have time to pose and think that's I mean,
Right now, know, like good leadership would be pausing to adapt and be agile and thinkabout what's good or what's key and what's needed.
And if you rush into things, sometimes you get things done, but not to the benefit of yourteam.

(21:48):
So what have you seen going back to the benefit piece and trying to, for the listeners tohear what's in it for them?
What have you seen?
Can you think of an example where you've worked with someone and you've helped themnavigate towards this peaceful leadership approach and they've been able to see a return
on investment just even with that mind shift, mindset shift?

(22:10):
Yes, it was actually in Canada and there was a big leadership issue of management issue aswell.
And actually the leader decided to sit with the salespersons and understand what theirdaily life was and sit next to them to understand the customer service process and how
like put themselves to their level and level of understanding, clarify what needed to beclarified and actually

(22:39):
just calling them by their names and understanding who was doing what and what they couldbring to the picture and motivate them did a huge difference and changed.
took a little while, of course, because you don't change your mindset by clicking yourfingers.
But just by becoming aware, the leader realized the team issues more closely because hewent to the market directly, he went to them directly.

(23:06):
Okay, so I have two things that I'm thinking right now.
One is you've said that leadership is art and I love, and I'm thinking as you're talking,I'm thinking even just the art of being able to navigate through that situation that you
were just mentioning.
But can you walk us through what, when you say you see leadership as art, what does thatmean to you?

(23:29):
So what does it mean to be an artist, right?
When you create, are you authentic to yourself?
Do you want to deliver a specific message?
What do you need to clarify?
uh What do you believe to be true?
And how do you embrace it?
um How do you navigate actually complexities or people's feedback?

(23:49):
And actually I was in a museum in Singapore and I thought it was very interesting.
They had labels that you could put under
a piece of art to give your own title.
So it's a question of interpretation.
What do you see there?
What do you understand there?
Or if you would give a title, what would it be?

(24:09):
So for me, like leadership is an art, it's the same kind of thing.
Like how do you want to be perceived?
But how do people perceive you?
But then you have to be ready to receive their feedback and understand what they think ofthe situation or of the way you lead or
So it's both ways, it's not like very hierarchical.

(24:31):
Yeah, yeah, I like that.
like just really want to go back to what you said in the very beginning about leadershipas art is that, well, if you're an artist, you should be authentic to yourself.
And also think about the audience that you're creating this art for and where is the bestcollaboration where you can be authentic.
And it also speaks, because I can imagine if I were a painter,

(24:54):
and someone walked up to my painting and they got me and they saw me how empowering thatwould be.
I think the same thing in leadership, both also when you're growing leaders on your team,teaching them those skills to be able to capture those things and to, I also think it's
part of expressing really what you're trying to convey in a clear and concise way so thatthose around you can absorb it.

(25:21):
Absolutely.
And it's not being afraid of showing what you want to show.
What do you want to communicate, clarify it, and then be happy to discuss it?
Yes, yes, love it.
Okay, so I know that Peaceful in your model and in your coaching, Peaceful is actually anacronym for something, right?
So can you walk us through this acronym and also listeners so that you know why whileshe's doing this, we will include links to her website and to additional areas so that you

(25:52):
can find out more about this process.
But can you walk us through the acronym Peaceful?
Sure, so P-E-A-C-E-F-U-L, peaceful.
So P for me is purpose, peaceful, passion.
The E is empowerment, eclectic, empathy.
The A is adaptability, agility, accountability.

(26:15):
The C would be for clarity, communication, and care.
The E is excellence, ethics, extraordinary.
F would be fulfilled, facetia, fairness.
U would be unique, unparalleled, unbiased.
And L will be liability, leadership, legacy.

(26:38):
Okay, I want to talk about legacy.
Why don't we jump to legacy?
Because I'm a big believer in part of my life quote is, you you were only born once onlygiven one opportunity to do these things and to build a legacy.
So you should make it count.
And so tell me what legacy means for you first off.
And then I want to learn what you think leaders should strive towards in building theirlegacy.

(27:03):
Okay.
I actually wanted to share an example because I love arts and I love music as well.
And I don't know if you know the conductor, Daniel Barenboin.
He's a very famous conductor and he was born in Argentina, but I saw him in Berlin andhe's teaching master classes about how to become a good conductor.

(27:29):
And he, and he,
has a huge legacy because he transformed the world of music.
It's not, and he was asking questions to this future conductor and he said, what is it youcan actually bring to these musicians who know their music well?
They don't need you for, you know, to play the music, but what is it you can add toactually make a difference and be a powerful conductor?

(27:57):
So put your emotions in it.
And he said, it's like transformative music should be transformative and you should addsomething so significant so that they really need you as a conductor.
And I thought, you know, for him, he's not worldly famous and recognize and people arewant to still talk about him obviously and his way of leading because it's not only being

(28:21):
a musician, not only being a good leader, but also
leading with empathy and all your senses, like your eyes, your ears, your smell, and yoursweat and everything.
And so I think it was a very good example of how to actually build legacy uh through thearts.

(28:42):
But also any leader can think about what is it that they're going to leave in the futureand how they inspired others.
I like to think about the, have you ever read the book, The Butterfly Effect?
It talks about just the science, the feeling of when the butterfly wings flutter, how farit can be felt into the world.

(29:06):
And I think it also is similar to the ripple effect, right?
And every time, I want leaders to think about not just, their legacy is not the immediatething that they're working on.
m
It's all the individuals that they've had an impact on who are then having an impact onother individuals who are then having, you know, that is a legacy that you carry on for

(29:29):
generations past, you know, that date on our tombstone that says we're no longer on earth.
The legacy is there's this is an eight.
I think it's in a rap song.
So so Katie, our producer, maybe you could put the link in the show notes, but it's it'ssomething like your what is it?

(29:49):
You're not dead when you die.
You're dead when people stop mentioning your name.
Last time people mentioned your name.
And so I'll have to find that song.
It's a rap song.
But anyway, so we will put a link to it in the show notes.
You guys can listen to it and think about it.
But whenever I hear that, I think exactly that.
It's not that I necessarily want them to say, you know, and yada yada yada, but whoever ispositive, we positively impacted for them to still be able to positively impact is

(30:16):
amazing.
I remember we gave an award to one of the INSEAD professors where I was working and hesaid, uh it was a legacy award and he said, I'm not dead yet.
Yes, that's true.
Well, we should award.
And I love that too, right?
Because oftentimes there are so many examples of people who actually don't get recognizedfor the amazing things that they did while they were on this planet.

(30:44):
And I find that incredibly sad.
I think we as leaders should also show that we're recognizing other amazing people whilethey're here as they can experience the gratitude and the gratefulness and that
just warm feeling now while they're still on the planet.
And actually there was a movie, forgot the name of it, but it's so famous I forgot, thisyoung gentleman was going to die and he asked his girlfriend, please tell me now what

(31:12):
you're going to tell me or what you're going to say at the funeral because I won't bethere to hear it.
And so she like prepared an amazing, beautiful text and he was there because obviously hewas not going to be there at that time.
the same.
Yeah, yes.
Yes, yes, exactly.
Exactly.
Okay, why don't we talk about conscious leadership and self-awareness?

(31:34):
Okay, and I know you love a quote by Eckhart Tolle that awareness is the greatest agentfor change.
So let's dive into there.
How does awareness transform a good leader into a badass leader?
So if you become conscious, obviously, you become responsible of your choices.

(31:55):
And if you become conscious and aware, it's the only way to transform because you don'tknow what you don't know.
So what do you want to know that you don't know?
And actually, there was a great book by an inside professor who's now an MIT professor andwho wrote this book, uh Ask.
And instead of like, you know, answer the questions, it's like ask the right questions.

(32:19):
And I thought, you know, being aware is asking yourself the right questions and constantlybeing mindful of what is and what should be and remember the key elements and
concentrating on what you can control.
I think the last part is really important, right?
Concentrating on what you can control.

(32:42):
Sometimes when I find people who struggle in leadership and maybe they go back to thatpart about being a forceful leader or something like that, I think I see those tendencies
in people who are fearful of the things they can't control.
Therefore, they try and control everything.
But if you identify my perspective is if a badass leader identifies, okay, this is what Ican control.

(33:07):
This is what's within my locus of control.
And this is not.
So I'm either going to collaborate with someone who can control this area, or I'm to takea step back and focus on what I can control.
And I try and teach that to people that I mentor as well is that when we spend timestressing and anxiety and all of this about all these things that we absolutely cannot

(33:29):
control.
We often don't have the energy to focus on the things that we really can control.
And that's where the magic is.
Like where you can only build a legacy on things that you can have an impact on that youcan somehow control.
And by control, it also means control the way you handle yourself in the moment.

(33:51):
That I think is a big piece that badass leaders need to learn.
To be able to do that is to control your reaction in the moment.
If you can't control anything else, you can always control the way you react.
Actually, that makes me think about during the Olympics in France last summer, I wasamazed by obviously all the athletes and I was wondering how at this level and usually

(34:16):
very young age they can handle stress.
And I realized that, you I was reading a lot and talked to a lot of people, in fact, thecoaches teach them.
to handle, not to get rid of the stress because they know they're going to have the stressanyway, but it's like how are going to react to stress and try to control this, like, or

(34:39):
prepare it like ahead of time.
I know I'm going to have this feeling or maybe I'm going to be sweating or maybe I'm goingto be shaking or whatever.
And then how am I reacting to this or preparing ahead of time instead of controlling thestress during the stress?
It's like ahead of time, I know it's coming, know it's coming, like using specificcoaching skills that will enable you to actually go over this.

(35:05):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I love that.
And one of the things I know I've heard Simon Sinek talk about this as well about theathletes and ask and when they would be interviewed by the news, they would ask them,
well, were you nervous before you did whatever?
And they would say, almost all of them would say, no, I was excited.

(35:27):
And philosophically, like in our brain, physiologically nervous and
and anxious or excited excitement power up the same way.
And it's this brain shift.
And so if instead of saying, I'm nervous for this podcast interview, instead say, I'mexcited just by saying that it's like it has this calming effect that is so powerful.

(35:51):
And I think it's much to what you were just commenting on is really for mindset and howyou, what you say to yourself and how you prepare for it.
But in the French system, unfortunately, in education, most of the time, it's not insteadof come to compete in a nice way, it's like come to be eliminated.
And it's like the it's the elimination process instead of like the competition process.

(36:15):
And it's a very, actually, it creates a lot of fear among, you know, students inparticular, or at the younger age.
And then how to embrace this when you get an adult and become a leader is another story.
Yes, yes.
So why don't we talk?
So one of the things I'm thinking about is how do leaders and I think we should dive intoa little bit of the cultural part as well, but how do leaders identify when they're out of

(36:44):
alignment with their group?
And I think, I think of the example you gave with the horse and the CEO and everyone wasafraid of him and he had no clue.
And then the horse was like running cause that's how
everyone wanted to do, but they weren't because they probably had to pay, you know, theyneeded a paycheck to pay their bills.
So how is a leader, do you identify when you're not in alignment?

(37:04):
And then how do you take steps to either yourself adjust or get everyone back inalignment?
That's a good question and actually a lot of answers.
The horse example is actually the lack of awareness of the leader in that specific case.
instead of he blamed the horse, or he blames, it's not my responsibility.

(37:30):
Your horse doesn't behave or so there's a lot of blaming because of not wanting toactually accept what is.
And the reality is if you don't have the buy-in from your teams, then you know that thegrowth is going to be difficult, right?
and reaching the common outcome is also going to be difficult.
if, you know, that's why I'm saying consciousness and awareness is key in anything you doand also clarifying communication and stating your values and mission and vision is key.

(38:01):
But then you have to be willing to do so.
So how do you align?
Well, first of all, become aware.
And then when you become aware, what do you want to become aware of?
And um if luckily you are willing to do so, then how do you align with your team values?
Do you know your own values?
Do you know the company values?
Do you know the other team members values and how do all these align?

(38:27):
So it's a lot of a...
uh reminders of what should be remembered as a leader, oh what you should clarify, what'syour leadership intent in all of this?
And at the end of the day, what is the outcome?
So if you clarify your leadership intent, if you become aware, more conscious about yourown values, your team values, then obviously everything's going to go smoothly.

(38:50):
And it's not just like a random thing to say.
It works and you can embrace what is and then
become inspirational and um have people's buying to actually work better together.
You know what I love about the most about the horror story is it's another analogy for thevalue of bringing in a third party, you know, a coach, a mentor, a leadership

(39:16):
professional, someone who is not someone who is has no skin in the game of what yourcompany is other than to help make you guys successful, right?
And bring them and let them observe and then listen.
to the feedback that they provide to you because that person is going to be more willingto say some of the difficult things.

(39:39):
They're going to be more willing to enter into a conflict type conversation.
They're going to as we initially started talking, right?
They're going to be more willing to have some radical candor with you that your teammembers may not.
And by bringing in that third party that's willing to share this, then I think you canreally speed up the process of awareness and alignment.

(40:02):
Absolutely.
And also the way they did it with the horse was the horse is telling me so and so and so.
So it's not like I'm telling you or the team is telling us.
So that's why this CEO actually responded like your horse doesn't behave.
Well, we see this, we see this in teams, right?

(40:23):
Where someone's like, oh, that person, they're useless, right?
And then that person goes and they work under another leader and suddenly they're asuperstar and they're crushing it.
it's like, when I hear someone say constantly, this is wrong with this.
And it's always everything external.
Then I start to think, okay, I see where the real problem lies because a strong, solidleader

(40:49):
is able to then own and as you've mentioned, take responsibility for where they are in theprocess and how they can grow first.
And also, think it's more like a question of judgment versus feelings.
So the horse doesn't judge.
He has feelings.
Like if he doesn't, if he feels scared, then he leaves.

(41:11):
And it's not like he's not judging, saying this gentleman is not a good leader.
What does he know about this?
And so he's like, you know, it's more using your intuition and using all your senses toactually
capitalize on what is and your good judgment, would say, but intuition is key in this.

(41:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So speaking about intuition, intuition, think can be difficult when you go into a newculture that you're not aware of and you're trying to be a leader.
and I know you're, you specialize in this.
You've worked with all these different cultures and you have learned slowly over time.

(41:53):
Okay.
In this culture, this word means this, but in this culture, that same word means somethingvery, you know, those types of things.
Okay.
So how do you advise a leader who's working in multiple cultures to be able to besuccessful while still being authentic to who they are as a leader?
Talking about words, like if I choose my cat's name, which means in Japanese love, andit's a swear word in Russian.

(42:24):
So talking about translation.
So it's not about intuition, it's about knowing what you're talking about.
So I had no clue.
anyway, like I kept the Japanese word.
um but if you a leader, let's say from a country and you're going to
another one, not every leadership uh or culture can get exported elsewhere in asignificant manner.

(42:52):
So you have to be aware.
I think we read the same book, The Culture Map from Erin Mayer at which actually is how tomanage multicultural teams virtually.
And she inspired me and her work and her um courses at INSEAD very much so.
And still.
And it's hard to understand different cultures.

(43:14):
if you're, you know, like from a hierarchy perspective or from like if you extrovert,introvert, or how you should communicate things or how you should give feedback and how
decision making process is actually being dealt with.
So if you don't know all of this, you're not just going to take your own leadership skillsany place in the world and act in Japan like you would act in France.

(43:39):
It's not going to work.
Like, not really not.
So even when I was working at Hennessy a few years ago, we all had a protocol class toteach us how to actually manage uh multicultural teams and handle Japanese culture when
you're French or when you're American, when you come from different countries.
So it's not intuitive, like for sure.

(44:02):
Like this, in this case, you have to know.
you tell me an example of I feel like and it was culture map that we were talking aboutthat day.
So we will include the links for both culture map and radical candor in the show notes.
But didn't you tell me a story about like the way that in France they present a problem orthey do or they make a decision and how it's the polar opposite in another area.

(44:30):
Don't you have a few examples like that?
I think we talked about language.
Let's say you speak English and you think you're going to the UK and everything's going tobe easy because you're an American, it's easy, we speak English, or you go to Australia
and then you address different topics and you don't understand why, you know, when itsays, when somebody says it's interesting in the US, it's absolutely not.

(44:54):
interpreted the same way.
It's interesting in the UK.
But you better know these things.
it's like the Swiss or Canadian or Belgian or French, speaking French or some countries inAfrica.
But yes, we do speak somehow the same language and the same roots of the language.
But then the meaning of words are totally different sometimes.

(45:16):
So again, you can get lost in translation.
If you have a good sense of humor, that's good.
But in business, could be very tricky.
Exactly.
Okay, so what do you feel interesting means in the US versus in the UK?
So how would you define the two different for that example?
oh
I'm telling you or if you're telling me it's interesting, I think you really mean it'sinteresting and you want to know more and you think it's fun.

(45:43):
But if in the UK, if somebody tells you it's interesting, it means it's crap.
know, like I'm not interesting at all.
a journalist told me this one and when I was working at Insider, she said, it'sinteresting.
But in fact, I guess she meant, you know, I'm not interesting at all and it's absolutelyuseless.
If you don't know this, don't get offended.

(46:04):
It's just a way of clarifying again.
And I love semantics and I love words because English is not my mother tongue as you canhear.
every time I have doubts, I clarify.
And actually it helps me.
love dictionaries.
so, and I always looked for the meaning and clarify what do you mean by this?
What was the intent?
Did you actually mean this and this and that?

(46:26):
And when, and this is what I understood when you said this and this and that.
And, even though you speak the same language, if you're with Americans in America, in anAmerican team, I think definitely you should clarify, you know, what you mean by different
purposes or by different intent, because it's most of the time an issue communicating,clarifying, explaining.

(46:49):
actually think that this is a great analogy in that this is something that we forget.
have culture like microcultures within our cultures as well.
So even if you're in the US and even if you're in the same region of the US, so let's justsay you're in Atlanta and you think the way you say something means something in

(47:14):
particular or you think what someone else said, what they mean.
Let's take this lesson, like pause and say, OK, when you said this, what I heard was thisis that what success looks like for you or did you have something else in mind?
And I love that.
That is something you can use anywhere in the world.
And it's maybe a little easier if you're in another country and they get that maybe youdon't get their culture.

(47:39):
And also the thing I love about it as well is that it teaches you or you learn how to seehumans as humans.
and say to the other person, I'm actually, really, really want to know what success lookslike for you.
So I'm going to ask to confirm and then cheer back.
And if they then say, no, Angela, you just cussed at me.

(48:00):
I'd be like, how did I, like, I'm, I'm a southern girl now.
How did I cut that?
I didn't mean to, right?
But then it's a moment to first off, maybe if you have a good sense of humor, laugh aboutit.
And I think it's also relationship building, right?
That when you can do that.
Yes, and also, like, let's say in the French culture, a lot of people cut you off.
Like, you start a sentence and I'm going to jump on it.

(48:23):
like, in some cultures, it's so unpolite to do this.
In the German language, you cannot do this because you only understand the meaning of thesentence until you wait until the end.
So you cannot really cut any person off.
And if you do this in Asian cultures, it's very unpolite.
So if you don't know the rules, you know, people think, these French people, they're solike...

(48:44):
obnoxious and they always cut everybody and like interrupt and it's not polite but in factit's just a way of interacting and getting excited about the conversation so it's you you
have to understand the codes and the rules.
I love this.
Okay, so I had a call this past week with a team from Germany.

(49:04):
So a bunch of Germans and some US people.
And I observed that the Germans were way better at raising their hands on the zoom thanjust jumping in.
And now that makes, and they probably thought that myself and some other Americans wererude because we were just jumping in and carrying on a conversation, right?

(49:25):
And now that makes so much more sense.
They were waiting to hear the whole thought and then, you know, be able to share whattheir message was next.
That actually in Europe in particular, not only in Germany, but like if you had school,you have to raise your hand before talking.
Like you cannot just like jump into the conversation.
And I realized in the U S you are encouraged to actually jump in and share IDs and so on.

(49:48):
So, and when we become coaches, we always say, you know, you have to listen, listen,listen, and let other people know.
And like, don't give your opinion really, because this is not coaching, right?
So you have to.
listen and ask the right questions, but not give you opinion.
And it's a very interesting mindset when you all your life, you've been taught to actuallyshare your opinion or raise your hands to say something.

(50:12):
And all of sudden you have to like let back and let others talk or ask the rightquestions.
Well, I like the mindset and I say I like the mindset.
I am working on emulating it.
I am not very good at it, but the leader being the last person to speak at the table.
And I really like that because oftentimes I know I get into mode sometimes when I'm superbusy, super stressed and I'm just in decision making mode and go in and just like, this is

(50:41):
the way it should be.
Haven't heard anything from everyone else in the room.
And instead, if I just sit there and listen to everyone else, well, you the decision thatwe're going to make is going to be so much better than the first option.
I'm going to share an experience if we can about listening, which taught me everythingabout listening.

(51:03):
I experimented while I didn't say at the business school in France and Singapore, Iexperimented a leadership in the dark.
And so the experience was led by blind people, blind leaders.
And we entered a room totally covered in black, like you couldn't have a watch or phone,nothing.
You couldn't see your feet.

(51:24):
And you had to follow the voice.
So they said, follow the voice, follow the voice, follow the voice.
You had no clue if you had stairs or anything.
You had to follow the voice and do whatever you needed to do.
And they said, follow the voice.
All of a sudden you had to sit around a table.
We had to sit around the table.
Everybody had to state their names.
And so they stated their names.

(51:46):
And now they said, okay, now that you stated your name, you have to sit in alphabeticalorder.
my gosh.
We're like, what's your name again?
Can you?
And it was like maybe eight people at the table, if you can imagine.
So I'm very bad at names.
very, I'm good at faces.
I remember faces, but names for me, it's tough.

(52:08):
so, especially if they come from different cultures, you know, it's not easy.
So we had to place each other in alphabetical order.
What do you have to do in the dark?
Listen, listen, listen, and remember and concentrate and focus.
focus on what's key.
So once we were like sitting at the table, this blind leader said, you are going to be theleader of the table, somebody random at the table.

(52:32):
And this person totally lost it because had no clue what she had to do.
Nobody was like, you we were all obviously in totally unexpected, uh you know, uh areasand not in our comfort zone.
And then they set the rules.
They said you have to build a bridge and then the leader of the table has one chance to gooutside with other leaders of the table.

(52:56):
And we had no clue how much time we had because we didn't have a watch.
So what happens is you totally lose track of time.
That's conclusion number one.
You have to focus a hundred percent.
You get very tired because you have so many information in, you know, every minute there'ssomething coming up and coming up and coming up.
And at the end of the day, it

(53:17):
It probably lasted like an hour.
It sounded like two or three hours.
We were all like extremely tired.
But then this experience was so powerful.
The leadership changed at the table because this person, the blind leader said, hello, didyou lose it?
Like, where are you?
Are you dead or something?
And then so somebody else jumped in to actually become the leader and say, I got it.

(53:42):
I'm going to save this table.
It's going to happen.
So it was a very interesting shift in just one hour of people not knowing each other, notknowing the rules, not knowing what we're doing and obviously acting as if you were blind.
And so we stepped out of that room and it struck me still now, you know, when you go tomeetings, do people focus?

(54:06):
Do people listen?
Are people on their phones?
And like on Zoom, it's a bit different now, but like if you were sharing the same roomlike we used to, know, how many people around the table were actually focusing and
understanding who was doing what and why they were here.
So it taught me a very interesting lesson about how to listen properly, how to listenintensively and meaningfully, obviously, and take act and understand.

(54:37):
what the next steps are instead of wasting everybody's time.
I love what you said at the last minute, wasting everyone's time.
So I was COO of a company once and at one point I said to the...
the rest of the executive team.
Okay, I'm gonna buy one of those things to put on the door that they have in schools now.

(54:58):
And everyone's gonna put their phone in it before they come into the room.
Cause I would get so sick.
like, you guys are constantly on your phone, right?
And they're like, I have to respond to this, but go ahead.
I'm listening.
Okay.
And then two weeks later, something would happen and they would say, I didn't know aboutthat.
you're like, you know that meeting that you were emailing instead of listening?
That's the meeting that we talked about this.

(55:18):
And the reality is, that
Science has already shown we cannot multitask like we think we can.
We absolutely cannot.
And I can tell you, I know for myself, one thing I've had to do is I've completely put myphone away and I have actually stopped wearing my Apple watch so it's not pinging me

(55:39):
during things.
And I will tell you that there are times when I first started doing it, I I want to justlike grab it and flip like no emergency.
But then afterwards I realized that I was actually saving time for myself because I didn'thave to go back and revisit a whole bunch of things or ask as many follow up questions or

(56:00):
be really confused or make mistakes.
And I actually wasn't wasting everyone else's time.
And that's really what happens.
And also, you know, like Ed Cartole says, you know, like the present moment, how presentare you to yourself?
How present are you in that moment?
And if you're not there now, you know, in one minute, it's going to be the past already.

(56:23):
And so a lot of people are not conscious about this, like the importance of being thereright now in the present moment.
I love this.
love this.
Okay.
So in 25 years, you've worked in 70, at least 70 countries, right?
travel to 70 countries and 20.
And worked in 20.

(56:44):
Okay.
So when you think about, can you just maybe share what some leaders might misunderstandabout multicultural leadership?
And then if they misunderstand it, what's the best way to course correct?
And so first one thing, if you realize how many countries there are in the world,according to certain numbers, 198 countries, and you think I travel to lot of countries,

(57:14):
70 countries, it's not even half of the world.
And so there's still a lot to discover.
More frequent flyers for you.
Exactly, and more books to write for every mayor as well about all these cultures.
uh The question was, what do you want to know that you don't know?

(57:39):
Or what are you supposed to know to actually lead in multicultural countries?
uh I think we mentioned that already, the working, it's like...
Working on a daily basis with different cultures is one thing, traveling to one country isanother thing.
You can actually be a tourist and love this or go there.

(58:00):
it's actually, you know, what is it you're looking for when you're going to thesecountries as a tourist?
But also if you work with different countries, because I love people and their stories andtheir culture, you realize in Asia in particular, it's a lot about human beings.
It's they work hard, but they also first of all,
They said if you manage multicultural teams, virtually in particular, have to spend twoand half more time talking about family and so on before actually talking about the actual

(58:34):
work.
So if I had colleagues in Singapore, we talked about, you know, like our parents orchildren and
the studies and how everybody was.
And then we got into the deep down into the topic of what we needed to talk about.
But then if we were in France or in the US, then obviously you go straight to the pointand you're not going to waste it.

(58:55):
Particularly in the US, know, time is time and we're going to start and talk about thisand time is money and it's always like competition and we have to reach a goal.
And but actually we're to talk about our children maybe.
You know, like at some point if we have time, right?
And so it's a very different approach of managing teams, obviously, but what do you needto know again?

(59:19):
And like when, if you're a CEO comes to somebody and say, how's your daughter doing?
And then it's not weird, you know, it's just uh nice actually.
And be kind always, I always say, you know, like, and people will say, my God, like theCEO came and he asked me how I was doing.
And he actually listened to the answer.
So there you go.

(59:40):
That's the important part.
Because how many people I know in the US, it's a really big thing where people will say,hey, how are you doing today?
And then they don't even listen.
Like you can practice.
You can say shitty.
And you can say like shitty with a smile.
And they'll be like, that's great.
And keep going.
And you're like, OK, you literally did not really care.
how I was doing today.
So I love the mindset of trying to not asking questions that you know they have to give asolid answer to not a yes or no or something like that and bringing something for example

(01:00:10):
on a Monday instead of saying how was your weekend or people would just be like great orboring or something like that instead say what was the most exciting thing about your
weekend?
Yeah yeah
But I mean, really it ties to, I'm a firm believer that badass leaders really want to getto know humans as humans and getting to know humans as humans is part about getting to

(01:00:33):
know the whole being, not just the being that you see as being a part of your return oninvestment for your company.
Cause really the whole being is a return on the investment, but most leaders do notrealize that.
And they're just going for the action item that seems to make most sense that deals withthat individual.
And I actually went to different meetings and I would not state the company, but I said,instead of having your tag with your title, I about having a tag with what you like the

(01:01:04):
most or what your values are or something then get, you know, and people was like, theylooked at me as if it was very weird.
But I said, you know, like, I don't care about your title really.
Like if you're a leader, doesn't mean, you know, like you, we know what your intent is orwhat you.
passions are or what we could actually relate to according to your interests or passion.

(01:01:28):
So I think it could be something interesting like putting a name to an art piece.
It's the same.
uh What does it mean actually?
And uh I would get curious about you Angela if you had like a, I don't know, like I lovewhatever cello or something.
beekeeping.
That's my latest hobby is beekeeping.

(01:01:51):
Yeah.
I this idea.
I'm already thinking about ways that this can be implemented in future things that I do.
Yeah, I'm totally going to steal this.
I'm going to steal all these ideas.
I'm not sure I can steal the horse idea, although you can tell the number of times I bringit up that I really want to do this.
uh
I that's what I love, sharing expertise and experiences and that's what makes people growand develop a multicultural mindset.

(01:02:20):
I'm going to call out Drew Hardin, who is the CEO of Blue Compass, and he has the most funteam building things I've ever seen.
They're on YouTube and it will include links to the episode we interviewed him with in theshow notes.
But Drew, I really think you need to do this horse thing.
So just saying this.
So, okay.
Well, you know, one of the things that I'm really passionate about trying to educate theworld in, and I'm collecting these responses from quite a few people because I'd love to

(01:02:46):
hear different perspectives on this.
The first one is
What do you feel the difference between a leader and a manager is?
So for me, the manager knows what he has to do, right?
It's like in the orchestra, we said the musicians know their music, they know what to do,and the leader is gonna give the tone, set the tone, or um obviously use his intuition to

(01:03:13):
make decisions that others would probably not make.
And you could be a good manager, not necessarily a good leader.
And not all leaders have intuition, but I think if you use all your senses and intuition,and if you're aware of what you should be aware of, then you become a great leader.

(01:03:35):
I love that.
think it's a leader somehow pauses to feel intently with all of the senses.
And I say feel, and I'm not just meaning feeling, like with the fingers, right?
That absorbing everything and being able to make a cohesive decision or push orcollaboration or move towards cohesion in a way that involves all of those senses.

(01:04:01):
That's brilliant.
I love that.
And they can also be vulnerable.
You know, could be a very intuitive leader, badass leader, but also very vulnerable andshow you emotions and uh you don't know everything.
You don't have to know everything.
And this is how it comes to a great point of sharing and embracing the rest of the teamand everybody's skills and empowering others.

(01:04:26):
Yep.
Yep.
I love this.
Okay.
So the other topic I'm really passionate about is conflict resolution.
And I think especially for you, we've talked a little bit on this episode already aboutways to handle conflict resolution, but can you give us like, what is your personal
philosophy on conflict first off?
And if you were advising a team, what advice would you give them to reach cohesion throughthat resolution process?

(01:04:53):
First of all is clarifying, communicating and asking questions again.
Like what is it we need to understand or what did you understand through saying this orwhat's the key issue there?
And if you had to solve the issue yourself, what would you do?
What would you suggest?
So it's more like listening and using your intuition, obviously when it's good to listenand when it's good to intervene, but

(01:05:22):
listening skills and empowering others to actually share, let them a space, a safe spaceto share what's going on.
And whether culturally or financially or like technically, you don't know, it's listeningand then pause and let them talk.
And sometimes one issue one day is totally like disappointing the next day.

(01:05:45):
So the conflict resolution, sometimes a big deal one day becomes something totally
you know, nonsense the next day.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think sometimes too, it's remembering that sometimes the conflict we think we seeisn't really what the conflict is.
And by following your pattern of listening, then I find as a leader, sometimes I can hearthe other person say something that doesn't have to do with what we think the conflict is.

(01:06:16):
And I can pause and say, wait, you said this.
Tell me more about this.
And sometimes that digging into and saying, tell me more about this area when somethinglike that.
And you can only identify that if you're truly listening and we see those things that seema little out of place.
Sometimes those are hints towards what the real underlying issue is that's causing thatconflict.

(01:06:40):
into perspective, you know, instead of just stating something or assuming, never assume,right?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
So is this the same quote you know in UK as it is or over in Europe as it is in the US?
The assumption makes an ass out of you and me both or something like that.

(01:07:05):
Does that resonate with you?
I don't know what she's talking So I want to talk a little bit about what is one corebelief, one core leadership belief.
that you believe a lot of leaders have, and maybe every emerging leader might have, thatyou would ask them to question?

(01:07:25):
Tell me more.
It could be, uh you you think or assumptions, you know, like you think, you know, but areyou sure you know what you're stating and um question the unquestionable and questionable.

(01:07:46):
And also always put things into perspective.
Like don't think you have the right answer and leave space for
as you said earlier, know, like leave space for other options.
I love that.
love that.
OK, so what would you say then at this state through this conversation?
Your definition of a badass leader is.

(01:08:10):
Somebody who uh takes risks because it's risky not to take risks and somebody who is notafraid of her or his opinion and who can lead intuitively but also peacefully with
kindness and direction.
I love that.

(01:08:30):
I love that.
love that.
Okay.
So if there's one piece of information you want the guests to or the listeners to takeaway from your story today, what would you want them to remember the most?
There's other ways than just one way to lead.
It's always great to consider others' opinions and put things into perspectives and bekind always.

(01:08:55):
Be kind always, I love that.
Okay, what is your favorite motivational quote?
Be yourself, everybody else is taken.
This is Oscar Wilde.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And I think I, you know, every one of us were born where we're one unique person.
You know, I remember when I was a young kid and I used to fly a lot for a young childbecause my parents were divorced and one lived in Ohio and one lived in Georgia.

(01:09:22):
And I remember being up in the plane when you could look down and you could see all thelittle cars and all the people.
And I would constantly think, I wonder what that person's up to today.
And I wonder what that, I wonder
knowing like I want to they're in their car.
You know, I wonder is the family all these different things about being curious aboutother people but also identifying that you're the only person sitting in that seat 11 be

(01:09:48):
on that particular Delta flight.
It's only you you only have one life to live.
So really make it count.
Exactly.
also respect others and uh cultivate your creativity and your dreams, obviously.
And it's great that you said you can make up stories about anything and anyone.

(01:10:09):
I love people's stories.
So if you want to me your story and if I can help in any ways, I'll be very happy to hearany crazy, interesting, different multicultural mindset.
Love this, love this.
Okay, so how can the listeners find you and learn more about you and connect with you?
So you can go to my website, which is uh www.peacefulslashleadership.com.

(01:10:38):
guess you'll share it.
And I'm currently in France, but I'm actually, somebody told me the world is myplayground, so I could go any place in the world to meet you and you can come as well.
And it's easy to do what we're doing today.
I'm glad I was part of this and I...
fascinated by all the uh experiences that we shared.

(01:11:01):
And I think anybody could experiment peaceful leadership and please give me feedback.
I'd love to hear about uh the ways or other ways we can lead and maybe implement thatwebsite and that way of thinking.
I love it.
love it.
Well, thank you for bringing the badass into this podcast today.
I am very grateful.

(01:11:23):
Thank you, Angela.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for joining me for today's episode of the Badass Leaders podcast.
To hear more interviews with industry experts and learn how to grow your career andleadership potential, be sure to like, subscribe, and turn on notifications to ensure you

(01:11:43):
do not miss future episodes.
This podcast is a production of the AGN Group.
To learn more about the AGN Group, visit our website at theagngroup.com.
There you can discover
more about our services which include posting workshops, management consulting, brandstrategy, keynote speaking, and more.

(01:12:05):
Follow us on all social media channels shown on the screen and displayed in the shownotes.
And until next week, be brave and be badass.

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