David Morse on Training Paths at Cincinnati Ballet

Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
David, thanks so much for joining us today.
That's my pleasure.
appreciate you guys inviting me on.
So um we're talking about Cincinnati Ballet Academy.
Can you give us a little background on the school, especially on how it's structured andthen how the students move through the levels?
Yeah, absolutely.
So our Academy is structured into several different divisions.

(00:25):
We have a children's division, which is for folks who are younger than maybe seven oreight.
And then when you hit seven or eight, we start moving you into our preparatory division.
There's three years in preparatory division and then three years in our young dancerdivision, and then two to three years in our advanced division.
That's sort of our main Academy track.

(00:46):
We also have a community division, serves uh
sort of more of a recreational track if folks are interested in that.
And then the highest level of our school is our professional training division, which isour sort of full-time day program postgraduate type of more intensive uh training.

(01:08):
So your full-time training starts at the trainee level, is that right?
Yeah, that's right.
don't have like in our advanced divisions, we don't have like a day a daytime version ofthat program.
It's something we've actually discussed on maybe in the future it would be beneficial.
But at the moment, yeah, when you enter into our sort of nine to five program, that's atthe trainee level, that's an audition program from folks all over the country with that

(01:33):
kind of focus on folks who are sort of at the cusp of their professional careers.
So I'm just kidding.
curious about em your after school program, because we're hearing this from more and morecompany affiliated schools.
Do you have classes where kids can go all the way through Cincinnati Ballet Academythrough graduating from high school?

(01:55):
And so it becomes just an extracurricular the way it might be club soccer or clubvolleyball for someone else.
I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
Can you ask that one more time?
So if I'm a kid who wants to take ballet classes at Cincinnati Ballet Academy, can I takethem all the way through graduating from high school?
um If I don't have any intention of dancing professionally, I just want to do ballet theway someone else might do club soccer.

(02:18):
yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
uh mean, yeah, the training starts, like our typical classes start three or four o'clockin the afternoon.
And it's, yeah, it's meant to just be a really substantive extracurricular activity forthese guys to learn about the art form, learn about being sort of like an art minded,
engaged citizen.
uh That's sort of our hope too, is that, yes, we would love it if all of our dancers wenton to be professionals from our academy, uh but that is not at all.

(02:45):
our primary goal.
anything, we're just hoping these guys learn some empathy, learn some musicality, learnsomething about like, you know, a really beautiful sort of traditional art form and maybe
learn something about themselves.
Yeah, and hopefully become season ticket holders as adults.
That would be nice too.
patron of the arts.

(03:08):
So I'm curious how many kids um from your after school program end up going intopostgraduate levels at like, and not just at Cincinnati, but like, is there a big drop off
when kids finish the after school program that most of them leave or do a lot of themcontinue in other training programs?
Yeah, so we've got a few of our advanced division dancers who go into our professionaltraining division, which I'm really proud of to be able to sort of continue on those folks

(03:36):
and helping them with their journey.
uh We have had some folks go to other programs.
Something that I also try to instill in them is that uh like a college dance track is areally amazing and beautiful thing.
If you're heading towards professionalism, I think kind of back in my day, that was lookedat as like you've
not made it, like you failed, everything has gone wrong, so you're gonna go to collegeinstead.

(03:58):
That is not at all the case anymore.
um Our former director, she was really, really passionate about having dancers withcollege education.
So there's quite a few dancers at Cincinnati Ballet who have come through a m collegetrack.
So I think it's really important.
And also I think a little bit that speaks to kind of how I think about our um main academydivisions before they reach the post-graduate level.

(04:24):
I think it's like, really have a lot of, uh I put a lot of weight and a lot of value inthe fact that these guys are like really taking their academics seriously.
um You know, like I don't I don't think so much anymore that we're looking for folks whoare such one track minds as professionals.
Like it's really beautiful to see someone who's multifaceted and has a lot of sort ofdepth of perspective and they bring all of that to their artistry.

(04:51):
think that that's in a lot of ways
more beautiful than someone who had like the most rigorous technical training.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it totally does.
on that note, I mean, what are you guys looking for when you're conducting auditions fortrainees and CB2 dancers?
So we're looking for a lot of things.
We're looking for sort of a certain level of technical proficiency to be able to executethe program safely.

(05:15):
The last thing we'd want to do would be to invite someone here that when they weren'treally ready for the program, because it is intensive.
And I think um even for folks who are very strong, when you're going from not training allday to training all day, that takes a lot and you've got to, you've really got to be ready
for that.
So there's several technical markers we're looking for, just strength things, alignmentthings, all of that.

(05:38):
course, we're also looking for is this person artistic?
Does this person seem to have something to say?
ah You know, I think about Alonzo King a lot.
He talks about ah we admire things in dancers that we admire in people.
So things like clarity, being able to articulate yourself, uh you know, being sort ofempathetic, but particularly being honest.

(06:01):
What I see in somebody in an audition, I see if they have integrity or not.
If you bring
yourself authentically to an audition, that resonates powerfully with the people who arewatching.
What I try to our trainees now is you are not gonna be everybody's cup of tea.
It's just not possible.
There are so many directors, there's so many different tastes, but the one thing that youcan do is bring your most authentic self to an audition.

(06:27):
And I know that sounds like a daunting thing, but it's only daunting if you're not in thedaily sort of continual act and work of figuring out what kind of an artist you want.
And I think that's a big thing of what I try to cultivate with our trainees here is whoare you as a creator, as an artist, as a person who's using the medium of dance to express

(06:47):
things about themselves, things about humanity, things about life.
It's hard work.
It's hard, like emotional spiritual work to think about that every day while you're doinga thousand tendus and things like that.
The sort of technical rigor of what we do.
But if it's not always informed by some
overarching need to speak something with these steps that have been done for centuries,like it's going to fall flat.

(07:14):
And I know that's like esoteric sort of like weird out there answer to give, but you know,when you see somebody like that on stage, like, you know, it's like kind of in the same
way that you can sort of spot a phony a mile away when you're watching someone dancing andsomething feels like off or inauthentic or I don't really like, or whatever, you don't
really like that person on the flip side of that coin.
When you see someone who they're

(07:36):
full spirit is turned out and on display and just like beaming radiating to the world.
It's like, whoa, this person has figured out how to unlock themselves.
They figured out how to push themselves out all the time.
And that's not, I tell this to our trainees all the time.
So for anybody listening, sorry to hear me preach, but it happens in the studio.

(07:57):
It has to happen daily because to try to, that's not a switch that you flip on or off.
I know you guys have talked to my dear.
dear friend and buddy Silas Farley, he and I have known each other since we were kids.
He talks about this all the time.
He says, if you're waiting for technical proficiency to start to become an artist, well,it's never gonna happen because ballet is this continual, ah it's continuous technical

(08:21):
pursuit.
You're never gonna be perfect.
So if you're waiting for that day when you achieve technical perfection to then sprinklesome artistry on top of it, that day is not gonna come and your experience is just gonna
be left kind of.
dry and really not so fulfilled.
Like you've got to be doing that daily work of pouring some artistry into what you do.
Can you spot that in an audition?

(08:41):
Yeah, of course.
Of course you can because there's a radiance there.
There's an openness.
I'm quoting Silas a bunch.
Oh, sorry.
That's my apologies.
uh He also talks about the sort of idea of just openness.
And when you turn yourself out and when you're uh engaged in this sort of like spiritualturnout, you're uh number one, you're pouring yourself out to the people and your what

(09:05):
you're trying to say becomes more available to the people who are watching.
But also you read as
available to what is in the front of the room.
Like you read as receptive.
When that channel, that sort of spirit channel is open, this person reads as like, wow,they're taking feedback.
Wow, they're really uh internalizing the details of the exercise, the musicality, thespecifics that the teacher's giving.

(09:27):
They are engaged with the energy around them in the room.
The other people who are in the room, they're sort of, they have a perception about them.
They're very uh actively present in the room.
All of that reads,
with a pretty serious authenticity that, and it can be in a child.
I mean, it can be in a 12 year old, a 10 year old, but particularly like you say, whenwe're auditioning for the trainee level or second company level, like those things, of

(09:50):
course there's all the technique and all of that.
And a beautiful technique is a gorgeous thing to behold.
But when you see someone who has that, I feel like that's what people say when they'retalking about like Spark or at least in my mind.
Yeah, you know, the thing that's interesting is I didn't hear you say the word technicalperfection once.
And we've talked to a couple of other people because I think that, you know, I think whenkids go into auditions, they think they can't make any mistakes.

(10:14):
They think they have to be perfect.
And we've heard a couple of times from people recently that actually the people who areadjudicating auditions like it when kids really go for it and maybe they make a mistake,
but at least they went for it.
completely.
I mean, you fit the nail in the head.
Because if you're trying to, okay, well, so number one, I know it's like an auditionformat.

(10:38):
So sort of baked into it is this idea that like you are judging me so that you can giveme, like it has this transactional nature about it.
But even when I give auditions, when I teach them myself, I try to dispel that from thestart.
I'm like, yes, I am technically here to sort of judge all of you guys, but that is not howI want you to approach this.
If you can approach this from having a good time, doing your best, yes, of course, I wantyou to work really, really hard.

(11:03):
I want you to do your absolute best.
But I mean, I even don't love this idea that even in a choreographic process or in the actof producing ballet, that it's about like what I want or what the person at the front of
the room wants.
It's like, no, this is a creative thing.
This is a collaborative thing.
We're working together to try to make some beautiful art to then turn out to ourcommunity.

(11:25):
um
I hate when students will ask me, did you want the arm and fifth or did you want the armand first?
like, wrong framing, it is not what I want.
This is not about what I, did you want us to travel this way or that?
You can ask the question like that, but that's really not what this is about here.
I'm trying to deliver information to you that's of help to you.

(11:46):
I'm trying to be of service to you so you can sort of become your fullest technical balletself.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, completely.
So yeah, the last thing that I would ever want anybody to try to do in an audition is tobe some sort of perfect version of themselves.
One, because it doesn't exist.
And if it did, it would be boring.

(12:07):
We know that about perfection.
But yeah, mean, better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
It's like, you just got to take the chance.
know, faint heart never won fair maiden.
It's like, just go for it.
Just blow the walls off of this place.
If you fall down, great, I'll come pick you up.
You know, like that's how I view it.
You actually really like you saying that because I do think so often people really feellike when they go into an audition have to be so perfect in order to get noticed.

(12:36):
um You know I have this really funny story about Abby when she was little and sheauditioned for this program she was 11 and it was a high school program and that they had
a young dancer and so she did it you know they did everyone's audition together so she andshe came to everybody's like wait she was super super super tiny and the man who was
adjudicating.
Like she had never done half the exercises because he didn't differentiate between her andher 11 year old self because she was the only 11 year old and everybody else was in high

(13:02):
school and auditioning for the high school like arts program.
And he stopped the audition and he looked at me and he's like, how old are you kid?
And she's like, I'm 11.
And he was like, have you ever done any of those exercises that I just had you do?
And she was like, no, but I'm trying my best, right?
In her like little chirpy 11 year old voice.
And he was like, see this, this is what I want.
I want you to dance cause you love it.

(13:23):
And I want you to just strive.
want everybody to just be pushing themselves.
You don't need to be perfect for me, but I really need to see that you are just tryingbecause, and he's like, I want everyone to remember what you were like when you were 11,
right?
And that you just dance cause you love.
Because also what I also, you know, something you can kind of spot in someone in anaudition is if they have that kind of perfection mindset.

(13:49):
And to me, that actually telegraphs that this person is not growth mindset.
They're not they're not open to feedback because they're so concerned with trying to sortof portray some sort of perfection that actually it's not a red flag, but it's like maybe
an orange flag for me.
our yellow flag because I'm thinking like there's almost a block there to where I'm like,I don't think this person is really even fully hearing me.

(14:16):
I don't think that they're fully available to try, try something new.
I mean, that's the whole, that's like the way that you're going to grow in your dancetraining is to try stuff that feels really weird and out and sort of uncomfortable.
You know, we start our summer intensive next week and I always give the spiel at thebeginning of the summer intensive, but okay, you guys are here.
Your job is not to impress me.
You impressed me in the audition.

(14:37):
That's why you're here.
Your job here is to treat the studio as a laboratory, is to try crazy things.
Your teachers are gonna ask you to try stuff that may feel really uncomfortable, but youwouldn't be here if you were perfect.
So we need to try things.
We need to be malleable.
Because progress, five perfect pirouettes doesn't look, that's not what progress lookslike.

(14:58):
That's the end.
and you're here to grow, to progress, to try to change yourself, to try to become a moreauthentic version of yourself, a more technical, a more virtuosic, more expressive, all of
that.
What progress is gonna look like is like, two wonky pirouettes, but I tried to do the armsthat the teacher asked for, or I tried to do the new spotting rhythm that the teacher was
asking for, and it's probably gonna feel weird at first, because growth feels weird.

(15:21):
It'll feel weird, it'll feel wonky, but then if it works for you, then you can sort of putthat in your tool belt of like,
new ways to approach attitude pirouettes or whatever the step is that works.
So for you, really sounds like you are much more interested in process.
It sounds like you are much more interested in somebody coming in to your intensive or tostart your year and they're there for a year or two for your trainee.

(15:44):
And you really just want to see them striving and trying things on.
Because not everything fits, right?
Try it.
See if it works for you.
If it doesn't, you can leave it.
But um it sounds like that's a lot more important to you than like, I mean, of course,there has to be a certain level of technical ability.
You know, when you're looking for dancers, if dancers are interested in applying forCincinnati, you know, it sounds like you really want someone with a little bit of an

(16:09):
adventurous spirit, like somebody really ready to just try.
100 % and also like to just be someone who's willing to kind of do things fully, know,like going halfway is just like non-negotiable.
Also, because if you're doing, if you're dancing, like really at a hundred percent, 110%,it's going to make the good stuff look even better.

(16:31):
Cause everything is going to be sort of like magnified, amplified, like really sort ofblown out of proportion.
That's great news.
But what it also does is it takes the things that need work and it like uh sort of popsthem out for the teachers to be able to see.
If you're really bold and doing everything, you know, um, sort of without inhibition andsort of unabashedly, if there's a little coordination or something in your entourages, or

(16:52):
something about the way you do soda bust, it's like a little off.
It's going to be amplified a little bit.
So your teachers are going to give you more feedback.
You're going to get more information from them because your little mistakes or things thatneed tweaking are going to be more apparent.
Mm-hmm.
That's really interesting.
I like that we're having this conversation because I feel like parents so often want tohelp their kids and give them advice and how to apply and how to approach the audition

(17:22):
season.
And I think too often we get a little too focused, and especially ballet dancers get very,very focused on the perfectionist mindset and not so much about identifying who they are
as artists.
And I think sometimes
dance training, you forget that you're actually trying to create art.
Yeah, because what ballet has this sort of like, it's like incongruous because we'reasking, we're looking for this sort of technical perfection.

(17:48):
But if that is your, if perfection is your approach, it's almost like the antithesis ofprogress.
If you make that your goal, yeah, it's more of like, I think you use the word strive.
It's like more of a striving thing than it is like.
um
Yeah, then it is trying to sort of present a final product.
I guess that's what I get bummed out about.

(18:09):
It's like, if I'm teaching a class and I feel like the people in front of me are trying topresent a totally perfect polished finished product.
I'm like, no, this isn't finished product time.
Finished product time, yeah, we'll get there.
When we get on stage, I'm gonna make sure you guys are looking like a million bucks andwe're gonna polish.
you know, that's part, that's a whole other thing too.
But in the classroom setting, again, I'll use the word again, the laboratory.

(18:30):
That is your time to try crazy things, to fall, to be off balance.
to try a new alignment, try using your back in a different way, all those differentthings.
Because if not, then when are you going to try it?
Don't try it on stage, because then we're trying to kind of, things want to look a littlemore polished and you don't want to fall.
I mean, of course, it'd be great if you fell.
That'd be like an amazing thing too, but yeah.

(18:54):
I mean, does that matter to you?
Like if you're in an audition and someone falls and that kind of stuff, do you payattention to how they respond after that?
Like what does that tell you?
I would probably clap first.
First I'd check on it and make sure, okay, then I would clap and then I'd come help pickthem up.
Because that to me, that is physical evidence of effort and progress.

(19:19):
They did something so wild, so radical that their vestibular system could no longercompensate and could no longer hold them upright.
Like that, you pushed the boundary.
You just found the limit.
You just found the edge of what is possible for yourself.
That's great.
That is the biggest possible win.
Love that.
I couldn't applaud that anymore.
um You know, to your point about your daughter, Abby's your daughter, right?

(19:43):
She is.
I had a similar experience.
can't remember if it was last year or the year before.
I won't say where I was just to protect whoever's identity it was, but there was thislittle gal.
mean, like she was like the size of a peanut.
I mean, she was absolutely so tiny.
She took my whole audition class.
She totally rocked it.
And then at the end we do like a little point portion, you know, look at everybody's pointwork.

(20:04):
And she didn't bat an eye.
said, all right, for those of you who have pointe shoes, put those on.
We'll do a little bit of pointe.
Put the pointe shoes on.
She did everything I asked.
Everything lovely, beautiful.
And I thought, wow, this is just like a little prodigy kind of kid, like just reallystellar technique all happening.
She came up to me after the class and she said, I just want to apologize.
I'm so sorry.
I've never danced on pointe before.

(20:25):
I just got these shoes, but I just, I tried to give it my best shot.
hope that was okay.
I was like,
my gosh, you absolutely just crushed this.
I can't believe you're telling me these words.
Thank God you're okay.
I said, listen to me, safety first.
You got to learn some fundamentals first.
But I said, you just absolutely smashed this, knocking it out of the park.

(20:46):
Brownie points, gold star, that was unreal.
um But I mean, just talk about a go-getter spirit.
It was amazing.
I would not advise for those listening, I would not advise that you do this if you've nottaken point classes before.
Just tell the teacher, I'm so sorry, I'm new to point.
I'll do this part on flat.
That would be my recommendation, but holy cow, that little gal, she just absolutely blewme away.

(21:07):
Yeah, and there's just something to be said for that like, you know, youthful abandon,right?
I'm just like, I'm just gonna send it.
What's the worst that's gonna happen?
Right?
Because you're not so in your head.
And it's kind of nice to talk about this in terms of like, because these auditions feel soconsequential, right?
Because these kids are really trying to pick their next steps.

(21:28):
And I think sometimes they get really, really in their head about them.
And so I think it's nice to have the conversation about the mental part of the auditioningbecause
You know we can talk about the technical virtuosity and all of that stuff until we're bluein the face but the reality is a lot of the blocks that a lot of these dancers face is a
mental block somewhere or they can't get over that hurdle or get out of their own way.

(21:51):
Yeah, and I think sometimes, like I've had folks ask me for like audition pointers or uhhow to be uh effective in a specific audition with a specific person or a specific company
or something like that.
And again, these people can spot a phony a mile away.
So think about this, if I go into an audition with, I'll just use our director for anexample.

(22:13):
If I go into an audition with Civalio Amador and I've like done some kind of sleuthingresearch and I determine
what kind of dancer I think he's into.
And then I try to do my best to sort of fake that in the audition.
Okay, so I've got myself into a situation where if I get a job, great, but then I have tofake it every day of my life in that job because I didn't present myself authentically in

(22:38):
the audition or it won't work anyway and you're not gonna be able to fool the person.
So it's kind of like, it's a lose-lose in that way.
And truthfully, I know I'm speaking at...
as someone who's not currently looking for a job or looking to get into a summerintensive.
But if I can go into an audition and really be my most unabashed self, and I get cut afterRond de Gems, I'm grateful for that because I know I'm not what these people were looking

(23:03):
for.
I'm not gonna waste my time.
mean, yes, I had to fly to the audition and all that, and we'll talk about that more too.
But to me, because I wouldn't wanna be someplace where I'm not sort of compatible withwhat they're looking for.
I wanna be someplace where they...
where they want to hear my artistic perspective.
are interested in the way that I do Pada Shavala.

(23:23):
They want to see how I interpret roles, those kinds of things.
So I know that like the sting of a no is a really, really serious thing.
And it just absolutely pierces your heart sometimes.
But to me, it's in a way a win.
It's like, okay, I have sort of narrowed down my list and I'm one step closer to finding aplace where I'm a really, really good

(23:47):
Seriously good fit.
and I have to be honest I just wish more places would just tell you yes or no rather thanjust ghosting you and just not hearing anything from them right because the reality is
like I used to say that to Abby all the time it would be you know if she wouldn't getsomething and so then it wasn't for you right because if they want you then they don't

(24:08):
want you know these 15 other kids and if they want
You i would like name a friend and if your friends got that then they didn't want youbecause you're different dancers and bring different things.
And i like that you're talking about being more your authentic self and being who you areand showing really who you are as an artist because that's what makes interesting art
right when you go out there and you're able to do these things that make it really reallyspecial right like.

(24:33):
My daughter did this shimmy on stage this year and it was just a shimmy and i can't tellyou.
How many people have talked to her about it?
She got DMs from people who were talking about it because they just said it was just likethe most fun free thing they've seen on stage in a really, really long time.
And she was like, it was my favorite part of the dance.
And I'm like, it was so evident that you loved doing that.

(24:55):
And I'll, but I'll say it again, too.
If you're, you know, trying to be your most authentic self in an audition, but you've notbeen doing that in your day-to-day work, it's going to be daunting.
It's going to feel impossible.
Cause you're like, you go into the audition thing.
Well, who the heck am I?
What do I, how do I dance?
How do I move?
And that's a very, yeah.
You put yourself in a tough place.
You kind of box yourself in there if you, if that's your approach.

(25:17):
That's why it's, it's all kind of wrapped in with your, your, your year round sort ofholistic approach to how you.
how you work, how you train, how you work with yourself.
If you're not sort of excavating who you are as an artist, you're not really gonna beprepared to do that when you go to an audition.
You're not really gonna be prepared to bring that truest version of yourself, becauseyou're thinking, well, I don't know who I am.

(25:42):
So that's a tough spot to put yourself into.
Okay, so let's, you know, we're going to dig into your trainees program and all of them,your second company and all of that stuff in a second.
But I want to kind of ask you this, there's a holistic convert like approach, likethinking about the year in general.
like, because we've spent so much time talking about figuring out who you are as an artistand presenting your authentic self, like for students, especially when they've been

(26:09):
In training where they've really just been focusing on their fingers and their hands andtheir ribs and all of those things and not really and focusing on all the technical part.
How do you do that as a whole program?
Like really trying to get all of your trainees because like how many trainees you haveevery year and say it's like a company members it in Cincinnati.

(26:29):
Training programs between 30 and 34 every year.
And our second company kind of fluctuates.
It's been as small as 10 and it can flux as large as 14.
So we're talking about 50 kids.
How are you helping all 50 figure out who they are as an artist?
What do you do in your program to really help them find those nuances in themselves tobecome individual artists rather than just a whole core?

(26:55):
So think number one is just inviting that, like making that known that this is ourobjective.
You did not come here to learn the Vaganova style or approach.
did not come here to learn the Balanchine approach.
You did not come here.
We hope to offer you a whole suite of different stylistic offerings.
What you have come here for and what I hope to, uh the way that I hope you leave thisprogram is more yourself as a dancer.

(27:18):
I hope that you look like, if I were to take our program, I would hope I came out lookingmore like David Morris.
And they all look at it like I'm crazy when I say that, because to your point, it's like,what are all of those individual markers, the hands, the ribs, the epaulm, how do all of
those translate into a unique artistic perspective?

(27:40):
I don't know that I could summarize that all in one concise way here, but what I will saythat I advise our trainees to do is you've got to kind of throw spaghetti at the wall.
when you have, if you haven't really been in a place of trying things out artistically andthen you're all of a sudden invited to do that, the first recommendation I'm gonna have to

(28:01):
you is you just have to try things.
You have to be radical with the way you use your upper body.
You have to try maybe like more travel.
You have to try, you know, a more sort of dynamic approach.
Like I'm gonna give them all of these different sort of all around the world 360 sortof...
like impulses or cues for them to try.

(28:24):
And then what I and the rest of our faculty can do within that is shape it.
Cause there's some things that work for some people and some things that don't work andworks for other people.
So if I see, you know, okay, wow, you were really, you know, using quite a lot of sort ofside bend in the way you did these balances.
That super duper works for you.
It works less so for you because maybe you're taller or you have a shorter torso orsomething like that.

(28:48):
uh
But my first advice to our trainees is you just have to try things.
I need to see you making artistic choices.
And then our sort of more, you know, our expertise is in helping you shape those choicesand sort of coaching you on, this really suits you.
Or, the way you traveled on that sea zone, beautiful for you through your line and the waythat you're sort of how you approach things.

(29:13):
That is really kind of the process.
It's not linear for anybody.
It's very much.
um unique to each person, um which makes sense because we're trying to uncover each oftheir sort of expressive selves.
So on that note, you've got these kids that are coming in from all over the country, maybeall over the world into your trainee and second company programs.

(29:38):
And there's a reason I'm asking you this next question first.
And that is, em are your kids that are coming in, are they coming from full-time trainingprograms like company affiliated schools or like independent conservatories like Herod or
The Rock?
or are your kids coming into the train, especially the trainee program from localafterschool programs?

(30:02):
It's really quite a mix.
If I think about our roster right now, um we've kind of got a bit of all of what you'vedescribed.
um So our training program, our professional training division, I view it as sort of atwo-year program.
That's not hard and fast.
That's not written in a contract somewhere, but that's where I think we can make the mostimpact on somebody and sort of be the most helpful to them is in a two-year format.

(30:27):
um
There are some folks who do a third year.
There's some folks who move on from us after our first year.
But, um so we are, there's a bit of a range.
Like we have some folks who are coming into our PTT program as like just getting into thatpost-graduate training experience.
And then we have some who have, like you say, have been in other training programs atother professional companies.

(30:49):
And there, uh I view it as kind of looking for another training experience, yes, but alsotrying to broaden their net.
And that's what I tell our trainees a lot too.
I think some of them feel quite disheartened about, okay, well, I didn't get a job at, youknow, from Cincinnati Ballet for my year there, but I got a trainee over here, should I
take that?

(31:10):
And that's a really complicated choice to make.
But what I try to describe to them sometimes is that if you do decide to make that choice,what you're doing is yes, you're gonna train more, but the really important thing that
you're doing is you're growing your network.
You go to a new place and you get new perspectives.
Yes, that's a lot of just beautiful new information that can inform your approach and yourtraining and that, but you're also getting to work with new coaches, new teachers, new

(31:35):
choreographers, new repetitors, new everything.
And that can be such a shot of stimulation into your sort of artistic heart, but to justinfuse you with these new ideas.
So, you know, everybody's at a different place in their training.
So there's some people who I really think that would benefit.
And there's other folks who I say, you know, maybe we would be more of a benefit to you,but.
oh

(31:57):
I know if I answered your question, that's...
Yeah, you did.
No, mean, that's really helpful.
um And you brought up networking.
How do you talk to your students about networking?
mean, we've talked to other people, including Cece, who I think you've worked with withher career planning program.
And she talked about how, I think she said, 95 % of getting a job is basically based onyour network.

(32:23):
How do you talk to your students about that?
Yeah, it's so, so important and it's not easy.
It is a difficult thing to do, but what I try to impress upon them is that yes, auditionsare one medium, it's one sort of pathway, but it's very, very difficult to break through
in an audition with 100.
We all know that.

(32:43):
That is a very difficult format to make an impression on somebody.
If you happen to be in a room with 100 people and you are the one person in that roomthat's the perfect fit for that director, okay, amazing, great, that situation really
worked out for you, but for 99 others, like maybe not.
What I think is amazing now, which is different from my kind of training days is thatthere's so many more like shorter opportunity um workshops and intensives and things like

(33:10):
that happening throughout the year that are just fantastic.
Like the opportunity to, and I don't want to speak to the merit of any particular program,but to have an opportunity to spend two weeks at this place and get more of a company
experience or spend a week here.
work with a bunch of new choreographers or spend three weeks here.
If it were, I don't, again, this is different than how things were when I was training,but if it were me and I was trying to map out like my summer plan, I think it's so smart.

(33:38):
These folks who do two weeks here, three weeks there, and a week here at the companyexperience or something like that, because you're just, people are able to work with you
in a more substantive way.
And then they get a better picture of the things that really matter, like your work ethic.
Are you malleable?
Are you willing to take feedback?
All those kinds of things.
Very, very, very difficult.

(33:58):
Even if you're an expert auditioner, like someone who gives auditions, you just can'treally discern those things in an hour and a half or a two hour class.
So, and I also will say too, that I think, I think a lot of my success as a dancer was dueto things like, not necessarily me being like a really killer technician or being a really

(34:18):
killer dancer by any means, but it was like some of those soft skill type of things.
So like,
in, you know, like kind of easy to work with or being willing to take feedback with thosekind of things.
I can think I got a lot more opportunity from that than I did from having like a reallykiller triple sort of Oscar or something like that.
So those little opportunities, you know, even if it's a four day thing or a week longthing, whatever, something more than just an audition, there's such a great way to put

(34:45):
yourself out there and to put, um, to make an impression that's beyond just what you canshow in a class.
Cause a class is
An audition class is such a highly charged ah environment.
And I also tell our trainees, I'm trying to be as transparent as I can, an auditionenvironment is stressful for the person giving it anyway, because I'm trying my best to

(35:10):
look at 50 people and give them all the time of day.
But I've explained to them that, if I think about it, if I've got 60 people, two houraudition, I've got two minutes.
I just do that math right?
I shouldn't do math in public.
I've got just a couple minutes of my attention to be able to devote to each person.
And so if I happen to devote my couple of minutes of attention to you when we're doing aDajio and Dajio is not your strength, but you've got like the most amazing jump and I miss

(35:36):
out on that.
And I'm not saying that I, you know, zero in and watch one person at a time.
No one teaches an audition that way, but in aggregate, you take a couple of minutes perdancer you can devote your attention to.
That's very, very difficult.
way to assess.
So I just say that not to take myself off the hook or let myself off the hook, but just tolet your listeners know that if you're able to do something that's not just an audition

(36:03):
class where you can make a little bit longer of an impression on people and show offthings like your work ethic and your ability to take feedback and those kinds of things
and your artistry, I think those are really, really good opportunities.
think it's interesting that you say that.
um The other thing I think that is really important, and we talked to parents about this,and even from the time that a dancer is young, is I always told my son about follow-up.

(36:32):
If you work with somebody that you really enjoyed working with, send them a DM.
Send them an email.
And I remember he was in the second company at Houston, and he had somebody who came andworked with them.
for an evaluation piece.
it was, he was in a bad place with his like just everything.
And he did this evaluation performance that was choreographed.

(36:56):
It was something that had been done by Trey McIntyre.
And I could see on the video all of a sudden he was smiling and he was happy.
And I said, what happened?
And he's like, I remembered why I was dancing.
I remembered why I love to dance.
And I said, you ought to email Trey McIntyre and tell him that.
You should tell him how it made you feel.
And he's like, no, he's not going to want to hear from me.

(37:18):
And I said, just send it to him.
You never know.
And Trey sent him this long email back, really supportive, really like, thank you.
I really appreciate that.
And here's some advice for the future.
And we tell people all the time, this is a really small world.
And if you just fire off an email to somebody, I mean, we fired off an email to you.

(37:40):
right, to ask you to come on this podcast.
And we're like, we don't know if these people are going to come talk to us.
But you forget how small the world is.
And it makes a big difference when you send a note just saying, hey, I really wanted totell you how much I appreciated the masterclass or the company experience or whatever it
was, because it just sets you apart a little bit.
And it makes people feel good.

(38:02):
And they remember you.
such top tier premium A grade mom advice right there.
I mean, it's so true.
The way you outline it is so true.
The one additional layer I would add to that is make it authentic.
Exactly, absolutely.
You know, because the this is I mean this is I don't know how to say this the right waybut like the kind of.

(38:32):
say, but like the impulse to kind of suck up is also like, not just unappealing, but it's,it's a disservice to the actual dancer themselves.
Because if you had a really amazing experience with me, I want to hear about it.
Like, I love that I want to know.
But if, if we like didn't really cross paths, but like you sent me kind of a weird note,it's like, I don't know what to make of this.

(38:55):
I appreciate the reach out, but it's like, can't, you know, it's like the authenticitything.
It's like you spot a phony a mile away.
It's like when someone tries to connect with you on LinkedIn because you met them in lineat Starbucks one day.
Right, yeah, it just kind of feels a little funky and not so...
uh
But when it is authentic, I mean, that was what my son was worried about when he was goingto email Trey, that he'll think he was sucking up.

(39:18):
And I was like, not from what I saw in that video that I saw of you.
There was nothing fake about that.
I could tell when you all of a sudden realized how much you love dancing.
And it was his choreography that brought you back to that.
And I think that that will come through.
But yeah, if you go to an audition, you're like, I loved it.

(39:39):
It changed my life.
I'm a different dancer because of your 90 minute audition class, you probably are going totear that up and throw it in the trash.
Right, right, totally, totally.
I don't know, I really, I like the through line that's kind of coming through thisconversation of, of be your authentic self.

(39:59):
And, and I think so often we get so bogged down with how to, you know, how to make thishappen, how to get into your second company, what are you looking for in a dancer and not
always having the conversation about actual, the actual human and person behind that and,how to best present yourself and, and what

(40:21):
What that looks like to move you forward.
And I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I think it is, I think it doessometimes get lost in the weeds because you know, the everything's getting more
competitive and in a way it's getting harder and harder to not only find a job, but even atrainee spot because they are becoming more and more competitive every year.

(40:46):
mean, are you, are you, I know you haven't been in in the career for that long.
but in terms of like running the second company trainee, but um what are some trends thatyou're seeing in terms of like, are your spots more more competitive and how are you
dealing with that in terms of like what your audition process looks like?

(41:09):
Yeah, I mean, I think you said this before, know, just the volume of dancers today thatare dancing at a very high level is just, it's through the roof.
And I mean, it's in a way, it's, you know, there's such a rich, such riches there.
I mean, we're lucky to have really, really amazing, talented, technical dancers.

(41:31):
And then, you know, I think it's not to like, you know, get all current, you know,whatever, but there's the social media stuff too.
which is there are things about dance that read in an Instagram reel that become really,really important to some people.
Like, you know, the nine PRS like kind of thing.

(41:56):
That to me, what I'm hoping to find in the dancer is non-quantifiable success criteria,not the height of the leg, not the amount of pure.
That stuff is amazing and it can be a beautiful additive to your expressive potential ifyou already have an artistic spirit that's like thriving and like sort of vibrating and

(42:19):
putting itself out there for the world.
But if that's it.
just the nine pirouettes.
Amazing technical feat, I cannot deny you that.
But it kind of falls flat.
mean, um we miss something.
um I'll just use an example of a dancer um who's been in Cincinnati Ballet for a hisname's Cati Ochoa.

(42:47):
Before she came here, I'd seen like crazy videos of her on Instagram doing literally nine,10, 11, 12 pure whites.
And I was like, holy cow, this gal is like, like technical, just monster.
And when she came here, I was like very excited to see her dance and watch the way thatshe would interpret things.
I, if I'm honest, I didn't know like how successful she would be or like how I would viewher as an artist in her time here.

(43:14):
She has absolutely blown me away because I came to understand that there was...
That all of that virtuosity was the tip of the iceberg of what an artist this person was.
She, to watch her interpret William Forsythe or Ketri or you name it, like she brought somuch of herself out in that.

(43:38):
And then on top of that could do all the amazing technical feats.
Like, I mean, those were just some of the most um unforgettable.
moments ah that I've seen in live dance, like period, because she just, it was that matchof immense technical proficiency and talent with so much to say, so much artistry, so uh

(44:04):
such a perspective on steps that I had seen before.
To take steps that I've seen before and give me chills with them and like surprise me andmake me see them in a way that I didn't think I could or couldn't understand that it could
be done in that way.
Um, yeah.
And, you know, also to get back to your question, so much of the audition process now is,is, happening through video.

(44:28):
And in a lot of ways that's a beautiful thing because it allows people to connect withpeople they wouldn't have been able to connect with in a lot of ways.
It me nuts.
And I can't stand it because there are, I know at myself, I know a ton of gorgeous dancersthat I didn't love watching them on video.
Yeah, can you talk about that a little bit?

(44:50):
the thing that we keep hearing, and our kids went through it, and we've heard this from anumber of school administrators, is the volume of videos that you get.
I'm curious how you handle just that massive volume of videos coming through.
It is a challenge.
mean, again, it's like a good and a bad in one way.

(45:13):
It's like, how amazing is this?
I can connect with so many dancers who maybe they wouldn't have had the resources to beable to come to an audition of ours, or I wouldn't have been able to go to wherever they
were.
Like that is a beautiful thing.
And the fact that our world is getting smaller in that way is so, amazing.
But again, it's like, as the person trying to assess all of these people and see if theyare a good fit.

(45:36):
Like having the time to be able to devote my attention, to fully pour my attention intothis person's dancing for however long it takes to assess someone, it's a huge challenge.
It's a huge challenge.
mean, we have, um we try to spread the load.
We have many people on our faculty that review video and they're sort of like a process ina series and sort of layering of all of that.

(45:58):
But yeah.
uh
I will just be frank that it's a challenge.
it's a beautiful, again, a beautiful challenge, because I love that we get to see so muchdance and on the, in the company as well.
And in the second company, I know the same thing.
get a ton of video.
um But again, I think sometimes the things that I see in a video, um

(46:23):
I mean, it drives me nuts that video can't really transmit all that I'm hoping to see in adancer.
I guess that's what I would say.
There are just things that I'm hoping to see in a dancer that are not transmittablethrough video.
So I'm-
What do do about that?
mean, how do you, what's your recommendation for students too, who are starting to thinkabout looking at post-grad?

(46:46):
mean, the whole notion of like sending out 50 videos where there's an application fee forevery single one of them and you're casting a really wide net because it's so incredibly
competitive.
You know, from your side of the coin as the person who's seeing all these videos, whatadvice do you have for people?

(47:06):
Yeah, it's incredibly difficult.
would say that you want to be yourself on your video.
If you try to give me a purely technical experience on a video, I'm not going to feel asconnected to you.
If you can do your bar or your center work or even your variation or whatever it is in away that tries to clue me in a little bit to what kind of artist you are, that's going to

(47:33):
make a huge difference.
And then um
I mean, yeah, just cause the other thing is that I'm, yeah, I'm just getting a more oflike a, it's almost like all of the artistic potential that's in you.
I'm getting like, almost like a one dimensional version of that.
Even if you're like really putting yourself out there, just, you know how they say likecamera adds 10 pounds or whatever.

(47:56):
I wouldn't say that.
I would say the camera detracts like 10 % or 15, maybe 20 % of your artistic expression.
So you've got to kind of maybe overdo it in a way in the video.
but then I just think, like I said before, like these, these little one weekopportunities, I think those are really, really important.

(48:17):
one, because you're getting to know more people and sort of network more where they'regetting to work with you, not just in a audition setting or a video setting.
Um, they're getting to work with you more, but also you're getting to work with them more.
I never want to under, uh, undersell this point that you as a dancer are auditioning thesepeople as much as they are auditioning you.

(48:38):
You were trying to see, I like the way this person speaks to me?
I like the way this person gives feedback.
Do I feel connected to the way that they're running the class?
Do I like the type of rep that this company does?
Like all of that stuff really, really important.
And hopefully that can take the pressure off a little bit too.
Like, you know, that when you're going into audition, it's like, yeah, they're assessingme, but, but I am, I have agency in this moment and I'm trying to figure out if this is a

(49:03):
place where I can see myself training for the summer or for a year or for whatever.
I think that's an important perspective.
So a lot of the company experiences, which I think are amazing, like I think every companyshould be doing that.
ah But they happen in the summer.
There are some interesting models out there where like, example, Tulsa Ballet, if you'relooking at their post-grad program, they bring you in for like three days during the

(49:31):
school year, which I love.
Like if you could take the audition model and like wipe the slate clean for post-gradauditions and how to do them, if you could just
do it from scratch, how would you set it up?
Yeah, I think those m little short experiences during the year are really great.
actually, we've done some like more small, like sort of smaller ones before, but we'relooking actually to expand to something like this in the future.

(49:57):
Cause I think it is just such an amazing opportunity.
And when it's not in the summer, know, folks are just trying to, there's so manyoverlapping, amazing things that happened in the summer.
It's like, where can I spend my time?
How can I choose where to go?
So I think that is an amazing thing.
um I also,
And there's not a way to fix this.
So this is like, you know, dreaming big here, but the timelines are so tricky because whencompany dancers receive their contracts and when they have to return them, the sort of

(50:31):
timeline of how that dictates when companies know how many uh open spots they have, thatthen trickles down to second company.
They can figure out, okay, well we can promote this many people or based on how manyspaces and then they figure out how many spaces they have.
And then it trickles down to people like me, like in trainee programs where, okay, secondcompany, they've had a couple of spots open up so they can take these dancers or they

(50:52):
don't have any spots or whatever, how that works.
So then it trickles down to us, but these timelines, they just get so either stretched outor compressed or condensed or moved around.
I, that would be, if I could wipe the slate clean to get us all on a consistent timelinewould be amazing.
And I think there's also a,
You know, there's this kind of discrepancy between some places require you attend theirsummer intensive and some places do not.

(51:19):
We do not.
um Because again, I'm hoping that before folks come to me, they're getting as muchexperience as they can.
Other places sort of like really feeding their artistic spirit in a bunch of differentways.
But I also understand the utility of wanting to bring people in for the same thing as theTulsa thing.
It's just happening during the summer.
If someone's asking.

(51:41):
or requiring you to come to their summer intensive so that they can get a sense of whatyou're like to work with.
Yeah, but what happens if you go and you don't get anything?
I always had a problem with being required to go for the summer.
It's one thing if you've already been offered a post-grad spot and the requirement is thatyou attend as part of the summer.
My son had that with HB2.

(52:03):
He got HB2 and as part of that had to go for the summer as a first year.
But to go as a condition of being considered, I just think that
kind of puts the dancer in a tough spot because if they don't get anything, the end of thesummer comes and they're kind of left flipping in the wind.
couldn't agree more.

(52:24):
I think it's really difficult.
I think it puts people in a difficult position.
And even for the people who do get something, I feel this a little bit with how we do ourauditions in Summer Intensive.
I I am thrilled when I can offer somebody a training spot.
Like that is the most exciting thing.
It's exciting for them.
I'm so happy to be able to welcome them.

(52:44):
But then a lot of times they turn around and say, okay, geez, I've got three weeks.
I have to move to Cincinnati.
So that's also, I mean, even for the folks it works out for, it's a little bit of a, youknow, it's exciting, but it's, again, if I could wipe the slate totally clean to get us
all in a unified time, you know, kind of how they do for university.
It's like all the deadlines are off, it's all standardized.

(53:07):
I think there's a real argument to be made for that.
But then again, I also understand that, you know, there's reasons why.
David please please shout this from the rooftops because Brett and I so agree I mean wehear so often from parents who are wringing their hands because they're like my kid has an
offer they have to let them know

(53:28):
before any of their other offers come through.
They don't even, they were not even done with audition season and they have to makechoices.
And it's like that for summer too.
I never understood why you just don't have like a date at the end of February whereeverybody kind of has to stack rank where they want to go and you know, you send it in and
it just feels so crazy to have to make these decisions before all of your options are onthe table.

(53:53):
And I understand everyone has to their programs and I understand all of that kind ofstuff, but
I know, I just think there could be some standardization and is it that everybody is sosiloed?
Why is this not more standardized?
I honestly don't know.
think, like I say, think everybody, each institution has sort of developed their cultureand their way of how their calendar lays out and all.

(54:15):
like, I understand that there's probably many reasons and justifications for the way thateach place does it.
But yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree with that.
But here's the thing.
mean, let's be honest.
Agma companies, artistic directors know by Christmas who they're keeping and who's notgetting renewed.
Because a lot of the contracts say you have to be informed during your artistic meeting inDecember.

(54:39):
So if the companies kind of already know how many spots they're going to have open, theykind of know who they're taking out of the second company.
They kind of know then how many spots are left in the second company.
Why couldn't it all just be standardized?
I mean, no, you don't have to tell people in December you're not being renewed, but youkind of already know the numbers and everyone just kind of pretends that's not out there,

(55:03):
but it is.
Yeah, you're right.
You're right about a lot of that.
think I don't know that it's quite as standardized as that.
think I'm on AgMOS board as well.
I think their deadlines are all a little bit different.
Some stretch into February.
So there is.
Well, that's for notification, like everyone, I mean, my son just went through it, youknow, they kind of know who they're keeping.

(55:28):
I see what you're saying.
Just like they have like an internal mindset.
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, I'm not sure.
That's a good question.
It just, I think there's a lot in ballet that's just like, well, this is how we've alwaysdone it.
And so, you know, it is hard because, and also you've just in your routine, right?
I'm sure you're seeing this.

(55:49):
just, it's like your whole year just kind of steamrolls.
And it's like, I mean,
You know, you're starting summer next week, which means you're already planning for fall,right?
And then as soon as you, know, a summer intensive is over, you're already starting to planfor Nutcracker, right?
And it's like, plan for this and fall show and da da.
And then all of a sudden it's like, gosh, we're already in February again.

(56:12):
I think, mean, you just to be real about the, Agma thing too, it's like, yeah, they have avague idea of numbers and da da da, but those are like people's lives.
That's those are really serious decisions about non-reengagement.
You know, these people, there's their livelihood and all that.
And I think there's a, I think there's an effort and a real sensitivity around how those,those decisions are made and how they're made, made how this is all, you know, comes out

(56:39):
and how it's made.
Comes to light is what I meant to say.
So I, I totally hear your point on how it trickles down to what we're talking about today,but I think they're just to give like a bit of grace and some sensitivity.
and I'm not saying there shouldn't be.
What I'm saying is if everybody already knows what's happening ah or even withretirements, right?

(57:02):
Like people know they're retiring at the end of the season, but yet the announcement isheld until who knows when.
If you already know that stuff, you can start making those internal moves a lot sooner.
And the downstream effect on students, just think would be so much more positive ifeverything was more aligned.

(57:23):
based on decisions, but I do, want to ask you a question about that.
So we're talking about career planning, right?
And I know you've worked with Cece and you bring her in to work with your students.
Is that right?
Okay.
How do you guys do that?
You know, how do you do your career planning, both with your trainees and your CB2 kids?

(57:44):
Yeah, so CC does her amazing three parts uh workshop series for us.
It's just phenomenal for anybody who hasn't checked it out.
um And then that uh sort of opens up a series over months of conversations with each ofour dancers.
um
I'm trying to be as much of resource as I can to counsel these guys and give them the bestadvice I can.

(58:10):
But a lot of what I'm asking them to do is like some really serious soul searching, somereally serious homework about what do you want this career to look like for you?
There are so many companies, they do so many different types of rep.
um And I really encourage our trainees to think about that and to think about

(58:32):
what their life as a dancer is gonna look like.
A few of the sort of areas that I asked them to just think on.
What size fish, what size pond?
Do you wanna be a tiny fish in a huge pond?
Do you wanna be an enormous fish in a tiny pond?
Do you wanna be a medium fish?
And I tell them to, your answer to that question can change.

(58:53):
I've known some folks who have had really, really amazing careers in small companies andthey've done all the principal roles and.
sort of checked off all of those big roles early in their career.
By the time they were 25, 26, weren't feeling so fulfilled anymore.
And then decided, I want to go to Humber Valley.
I want to be in a huge machine.

(59:14):
And that became so fulfilling for them at that moment.
So that's one area, what size fish, what size pond.
The other area that I'd never even really considered until I came to Cincinnati Balletwas, are you in more of a creation house or more of a rep type of a company?

(59:36):
Oh, that's interesting.
Can you talk about that?
Yeah, totally.
What I didn't realize at the time that I was dancing in Charlotte Valley, we were, itwasn't talked about this way, but looking back, we were a creative house.
Almost everything that I was dancing was made on me.
No way.

(59:57):
wow.
We were, it was so many new ballets all the time.
And then when I came to Cincinnati Ballet, and not to say everything we did in Charlottewas new.
Like we did some really cool, Twyla Tharp and some, know, Forsyth and Killian and thosekinds of like big uh masterworks also.
But those were the outliers in our season.

(01:00:17):
When I came to Cincinnati, it seemed like, I just didn't realize how much of a flip it wasgonna feel like working with, like way more commonly working with repetitors.
than with choreographers.
Having people come in and say, this is the ballet, these are the steps, these are thecounts, here's where you stand, here's how it goes.
That is a radically different workflow in your day as a dancer.

(01:00:39):
When you're working with a choreographer, they expect your agency, they expect youropinions, they expect you to be a part of the process, they rely on your artistic
sensibility and the way that you move your body to help inform what's gonna happen next.
So it's this very...
uh
collaborative sort of intermingled artistic idea.

(01:01:02):
I guess just a more collaborative experience and it's a very, it can be a very intenseexperience on the body.
So in a way I'm happy that I did that earlier in my career because it's a lot of, can youtry that again?
Oh no, go back, try it with this way.
Oh, now try it with this arm.
That is a really in-depth process, which can be different than doing something likeSymphony in C.

(01:01:24):
where the Balanchine stager comes in and says, okay, you're on this line, you stand here,on count five, you do entre chaussies and then chausses arabesque.
Like that is, it's a little bit more fast paced, it's quite prescribed and there's notzero reliance on your artistic expression, because you've got to bring yourself to every
work that you do.
But like you're not in the act of helping create these works.

(01:01:48):
Do you think there are dancers that prefer one type of that over the other?
And when you're talking to your students, do you ask them to really think about that?
And can an 18-year-old or a 19-year-old really identify what direction they want to go?
The last part of that, that can be difficult.
think you're still trying to figure out what kind of an artist you are.

(01:02:11):
I will say there, I've had, I've worked with some folks in our trainee program who I willsay to them like, wow, you really come to life in front of a choreographer.
You really have a way of being very open and kind of experimental.
You know, because what, yeah, it's crazy.
What we're asking dancers to do,

(01:02:33):
in their careers is be experts in two vastly different modes.
Mode number one is you have to be like totally malleable, willing to try anything, um youknow, uh not getting bogged down on details, like willing to sort of dance in rough draft
and be, um you know, not know where something's gonna lead just to sort of try it and see,oh, maybe I roll out of it that way or those kinds of things.

(01:03:01):
That's one mode that we need dancers.
professional dancers to be able to work in other mode, the sort of opposite mode issupreme, highly detailed instructions follower.
You need to be able to do exactly what we say at exactly the right time, exactly the rightplace on the stage with exactly the right hip line, exactly your leg crossed in the front.
But those are like really two completely different skill sets.

(01:03:24):
And if I can illuminate a dancer and sort of call out to them and say, Hey, you're reallygreat in this mode or you operate really well in
instructions mode, like you're just so detail oriented, you know the counts, you know thedetails.
You know, that can help steer somebody a little bit.
If, if some, I can look at a company and see, wow, they haven't done a new creation, theyonly do one new creation a year, new creations a year.

(01:03:48):
Wow.
Okay.
If you're a supreme instructions follower, you might be really a great fit there.
And you would get a lot of opportunity because you're, you have a skill that they have aneed for.
If I see somebody who maybe is less good at picking up detail or something like that, butthey are
really malleable in a process, in a choreographic process, and they can really kind ofroll with the punches and aren't looking for, know, okay, what count is this on?

(01:04:13):
You know, that kind of thing.
I can say to them like, wow, you would really do well at X, and Z environment because thatcould be, yeah, just a really good fit for your, for the skill that you have in that area.
So for dancers who don't necessarily have a director that maybe can help them parse thatapart, how do parents and dancers figure out how to look at a company and actually decide

(01:04:36):
like, yes, this is a big creator space.
Yes, this is a big like repertoire space.
Like I wouldn't know how to do that.
How do you do that?
So what I'm constantly asking our trainees to do go on their Instagram scroll back yearsgo back years See have they brought in this choreographer five times in the last five
years?
Okay that they're working with that choreographer a lot they done You know, this yeah,this is difficult research work to do but it has this company done You know if they're

(01:05:05):
looking at if you're doing a lot of balance sheet works or a lot of far like, you knowThose are obviously restaging like, know, sure Robbins or something
to look back at that kind of data and see, you can parse it out.
It's not easy.
mean, it is not, it has a lot of scrolling to do and sort of sleuth work that you're gonnado.

(01:05:26):
But that data point alone, that parameter of what type of company it is, like creationversus rep company, that's gonna have a huge impact on your day-to-day life as a dancer.
And I've kind of described what the difference is.
That will be, yeah, that'll be a huge, it'll make a huge difference in the type of careeryou have and the type of daily experience you have as an advanced.

(01:05:55):
just fulfilled as an artist like what what that really really looks like.
Okay.
And what's not better than the other?
I both are amazing.
Some people may derive fulfillment in one or the other or both.
I I was happy to be able to have a career that had a lot of both because really if you canwork in both of those modes, they can both be extremely fulfilling.
It's not that one's better.

(01:06:17):
Yeah, I mean, so you really feel like Instagram is like the place to go, right?
Because that really gives you a good idea of what that kind of looks like.
I mean, because like, for example, mean, so I don't know, like, besides Charlotte, like,what are some other examples of like a creator space?
Like, would Houston Ballet be considered that because like Stanton does a lot of new work?

(01:06:40):
or like not really like I guess for me I'm sorry I don't mean to get like down in but noone has said this to us before so this is kind of like new so I'm all excited it's like a
shiny toy so like it's how do you parse that apart and especially you know we have a lotof dancers who are listening to this pod and it's like okay well there's like one new work

(01:07:01):
does it mean like a rep like
They do like, you know, like a spring mix, right?
Where they do all pull bunch of new work.
And is that considered a creator space or just like a particular thing?
Like where's the balance?
So back to the first part of the question, I would say Instagram is a good tool.
What I wish all companies did was that had a running rep list of what we've done in thepast season.

(01:07:22):
Not everybody does that, so it's a little bit not as easy to parse out, but Instagram'sgreat.
I think you can look at a company and see like a place like Houston, for example, if youlook at that and see, okay, they do a fair amount of Stanton's ballads because he's the
director and he's also a choreographer.
That's a great data point.
You know that and you know, so what I would say if someone

(01:07:44):
looks at that and they look at a bunch of Stanton's work, put yourself in that work.
that look like something that will be fulfilling to you?
Okay, then if so, great.
Houston Ballet could be a really cool fit.
If not, maybe not.
um You know, another place that's sort of, well, the sort of supreme creative house, likein the whole contemporary dance world is the Netherlands Dance Theater.
um You know, another one would be Ballet British Columbia, those kinds of things.

(01:08:06):
um
Yeah, I would say that you want to look and see if you're doing a lot of um thechoreography of a director.
If the director's choreographing something, then you...
You can understand that that company is sort of built in this like, um like in the sort ofNew York City Ballet model under Balanchine or in the Killian Netherlands Dance Theater

(01:08:31):
model or the Stuttgart Cranko model where the leader of the organization has a clearchoreographic voice and vision and they are using that clear choreographic voice and
vision to shape the look of the company.
Also something like Complexion with Dwight Rodin, wonderful, wonderful man, choreographer.
uh know, something like Alonzo King's Lines Ballet.
These people are,

(01:08:52):
and they are using their company and their creative voice to shape the vision there.
So it sounds like there might be like one way to look at it is look at the artisticdirector.
Is the artistic director a choreographer or is the artistic director simply somebody whoruns the company and runs company class and does the rehearsals but does not actually

(01:09:20):
create work on their dancers?
Is that fair to say?
Absolutely, or look at the company and see, do they have a resonant choreographer?
Does this person have a choreographer that they are working with in an ongoing capacity?
Because again, that's another indicator that this person's work, the director of thatcompany feels some sort of connection to this person's work and they want that to in some

(01:09:42):
way be shaping the company.
Of course, the other thing related to that that we're always looking at is the classicalcontemporary balance of a company.
But that's, again, that's sort of another layer.
There's sort of the, classical, how contemporary, what's the mix there.
But even within that, yeah, how much of those classics are new, how much of them arerestagings, how much of them are of that.

(01:10:04):
These are kind of the areas that I'm asking folks to, and this is why I say that researchis so key, because if you don't enjoy being choreographed on, if you just want to be told
what to do, there's a lot of companies that you can just cross off your list, becauseyou'd be miserable there, or vice versa.
The other way could go around.
Or if you want to mix, okay, that,
I need to, that's something I can actively look for as I'm trying to make decisions aboutwhere I want to land.

(01:10:26):
So how do you talk to kids?
How do you balance that with what Jenny and I had had talked about earlier, which is justthe sheer competitiveness of this industry, right?
So you're telling kids and I think you're right, right?
Like, I don't think you, it's sort of like applying to college.
Like don't apply.
If you're a city kid, don't apply to school in Montana, right?

(01:10:46):
You're not going to be happy.
And if you want to fly fish on the weekends, don't apply to NYU.
Like you're just not going to be happy either way.
However,
If you're a student, you're thinking, I don't want to cross anything off my list because Ijust want a job.
I just want to be able to have a job as a professional dancer.
And so I think a lot of dancers get nervous when they hear cut down because they'rethinking cast as wide a net as possible because you just never know.

(01:11:15):
And even though you're telling me all this stuff, I might still go there and love it,right?
Like they're telling themselves and they may be wrong.
But how do you balance that conversation when the students are like, look, I just want toget a job?
It's tough and they may be right.
You you said they may be wrong.
They may be right.
They may go somewhere and absolutely thrive there and absolutely love it.
And no amount of research could tell you like how you're going to actually fare in a givenplace or another.

(01:11:40):
um So, I mean, I kind of take your point.
uh What I would say is if you, if someone has the mentality that they're, you know,they're kind of freaked out about not casting a wide net and they want to do that and they
do do that.
and then they get an offer that they're not so excited about.

(01:12:00):
What I would say is, can this place be a stepping stone?
This may not be Holy Grail to perfect option dream company, but is there something thatyou can learn here?
Is there something that you could derive from this experience?
Answer to that question could be no.
The answer to that question could be, oh place feels toxic.
I think I might want to steer clear.

(01:12:21):
I'd rather do another year in a trainee program or something like that.
And that happens.
Totally, reasonable.
ah
In fact, some ways, why is decision?
But if there's some place that's not your dream company, but it feels like, okay, I thinkI could learn something here.
I think I could grow here as an artist.
It seems like the people there want to sort of pour themselves into me, invest themselvesin my growth and my progress as an artist.

(01:12:48):
Maybe that's worth a chance.
Maybe that's worth, is this place a stepping stone that can get me to the next thing thatI'm interested in?
Right.
Or do you like living there?
Like, do you like where you're living?
Do you like the people in the company?
I mean, there's so many things that, like I watched my son go through this.
He turned down a job offer because he really didn't see himself being comfortable livingin that part of the country.

(01:13:15):
And you know, you have to factor all of that in.
And because there's time outside the studio and like you.
You have to have a life outside the studio.
What is, yeah, what are your, what are your sort of general life goals?
What are your values?
Is it really important for you to be close to family?
uh You know, those kinds of things.
Do you have, you know, if this, the company doesn't have a long season, if they have a lotof layoff weeks, okay, am I in some proximity to some other gig work that I'm interested

(01:13:44):
in?
You know, things like that.
The other thing too, that, that I, that just drives me crazy about all this, but I try tobe as realistic as I can is when you're in this kind of,
post-grad limbo of a trainee program or college experience or whatever.

(01:14:04):
You're on the way to your professional career and you have to do things to sort of makethat work.
There's some compromises that you might have to do.
You might have to get a job.
You might have to get a couple of jobs, things like that.
You might have to do some odd jobs or gig work.
But what is important to me is that folks are always doing those things with that mindsetand with the eye towards, these things serving my future?

(01:14:33):
Because I've watched people, just to give sort of an example, I've watched people get intoa second company or a trainee program somewhere and the pay was low, but they were excited
about it.
And then to make that work in a sort of high cost of living area,
they were getting up at four in the morning to go work at Starbucks.
And they worked like five to nine or something at Starbucks.

(01:14:54):
Then they had class at 10.
And they were in class and rehearsal from 10 to, you know, four or five.
And they were like doing some babysitting stuff in the evening, five to 10.
And it's like, okay, you're really just burning the candle at like five different ends.
But candles don't even have five ends.
And you're burning the candle at five ends.

(01:15:15):
To me at that point, like,
And this person that's who I'm thinking of, their dancing really suffered.
Cause it's like, you're doing so much to try to make this happen.
You're not a person anymore.
Like you've given up so much of your free time.
You're just stretching, you're spreading yourself so thinly that your dancing ends upsuffering and you're not, then you're not moving yourself.

(01:15:37):
You're not moving the ball down the field artistically.
You're not growing as an artist.
You're not growing technically because you're doing all this other stuff to try to make itwork.
So.
I try to have really realistic conversations with folks about, is this, you know, youdon't have to be making a ton of money, but is this offering you, is this offer enough for
you to be able to live in this particular city?

(01:15:57):
And we'll sit down and do some cost of living comparisons and those kinds of things.
I think it's really important.
Some folks will be in Cincinnati and say, oh, well, can, you know, I'm making this at my,my, my part-time job.
I'm living comfortably here.
Oh, well, I could go to LA and have a similar experience.
It's like, whoa, no, you could not.
You know, just to give that kind of like dose of reality there is really important.

(01:16:20):
So we try to have these conversations as much as we can because to be successful as anartist, you've got to, I mean, you got to sleep, you got to be able to nourish yourself.
Like just your basic needs have to be met for you to be able to continue to thriveartistically and technically and all of that stuff.
So it's hard.
I'm glad that you're talking to your your dancers about salary because the reality is isthat the drop-off for being able to make a living is I mean you know after you get around

(01:16:53):
that you know top 15 20 companies you know in terms of budget you really can't live off ofyour salary alone like you do have to do some some subsidies so I'd like that you're
talking to your dancers about that because it is
So boring.
When-
And also some people build really, really exciting portfolio careers where they aredancing from nine to two, and then they do some cool modeling work and then they get into

(01:17:22):
film and then it becomes sort of a gig thing.
And you end up being on a 12.
It's like those kinds of things can lead.
Like you can build really exciting careers that way.
But just to have that, like you said, the reality that...
That's gonna be a, there's just more kind of logistics to that.

(01:17:46):
That's not like working in a union company where you, know, the pay is sort of a littlebit more regulated and things like that.
m
For your dancers in trainee and in um CB2, how long do they typically stay?
You said your trainee was a two-year program.
Do they sometimes stay three years?

(01:18:06):
And if so, where are they going?
Are they going to another trainee?
Are they going to a second company?
Are they getting company jobs?
Are they going to college?
What does that split all look like?
I would say all of that.
our, like I say, not written down anywhere in a contract, it's not hard and fast, but Ithink that our program works optimally as a two-year.

(01:18:27):
for trainee or for CB2.
for training.
I think, so I don't run our second company, but I think it's similar.
They think of it in sort of a two year way.
em But for, yeah, for our professional training division, I think students are best servedin that program in a two year format.
By all means, there are some folks who have really flourished and thrived in a third year.
And that was just what they needed, you know, to really get to where they needed to gotechnically or artistically.

(01:18:54):
Beyond that, we have had dancers go into our second company and into our main company,which I'm so proud about.
That's like the happiest moment of my life when I see them dancing on stage.
Actually, of the who came through our school and our trainee program, she was in theValley of Mine in the Director's Vision program at the end of our season.
And I was just like beaming watching her on stage with the main company.
So that's really cool.

(01:19:15):
I love that it's been a priority organizationally to keep that pipeline strong.
And I feel really, really good that that's happened.
We've had other folks go to other companies of sort of varying size and scale.
We've had folks go to other second companies, other training programs, and also like yousay to other, to universities.

(01:19:36):
You know, again, like I said, when I was, when I was training, if you got to the end highschool and you weren't ready for a professional job, it was like you were done.
That was it.
You had to go to college.
Like, that was like a calamity.
It was a failure.
Everything had gone horribly wrong.
And college was like this horrible place that you would go to.
That is not at all the case anymore.
Like you say, you the hiring landscape has really changed.

(01:19:59):
And I think that dancers, uh directors are looking for dancers of a higher level ofmaturity.
this comes because the work is more athletic, the work is more mature, the work is more,it's just more technically rigorous, more artistically rigorous, so directors are looking
for more mature dancers.

(01:20:20):
People aren't necessarily getting jobs at 17, 18.
So this, like you guys talk about, this postgraduate period is so key and I think thatbeing well served during that time can look like a lot of different things.
It can look like
a of years in this training program and then a year in this training program and then ajob.
It can look like four years in a university and then a job.

(01:20:43):
Some people go the university route and it's just really not a fit.
And then they realize they come to a training program and being in that sort ofprofessional rhythm each day really feels like the right fit.
It gives them the sort of charge that they need.
And then boom, that sort of works for them.
And I mean, I know you guys know this, but that's what I'm trying to stress to these guysall the time is that this is not one size fits

(01:21:05):
everyone's track and sort of pathway into a professional career is radically different.
I mean, some folks go to New York City Ballet and then decide they don't like it and thenthey go to IU and then they dance in Pennsylvania Ballet for a long time.
That's
We Laura.
We know her.
oh
So, mean, but she's a wonderful person and a wonderful friend, but just a great example ofhow just these paths can look so different and it's never one size fits

(01:21:32):
pivot because I mean everyone thinks it's your dream to get into New York City Ballet at16 and and it's so interesting we interviewed her listening to her talk about it and she
was like I was drowning and then you know and really felt like she was going to walk awaybut then we found her love which was really wonderful so on the on the reverse of that I

(01:21:52):
mean we could talk about Lauren all day because she's so great but um so.
Do you recruit out of colleges.
for your trainee or your second company.
Sure.
We don't actively, like we're not actively looking into college programs to try to likesnatch people out of them.
But if someone from a college program comes to one of our auditions and they seem like agood fit by all means, yeah, we've offered positions to many people from college programs.

(01:22:19):
Usually a lot of times they will write me back and say, so sorry, I'd really love to bewith you guys in a couple of years, but I really want to finish my degree first.
But to me, it's exciting that they're looking and seeing where the offers pop up and allof that.
Sure.
So when you are auditioning, when students from college programs come, typically where arethey going?

(01:22:40):
Are they going into your trainee program?
Are they going into your second company?
Like typically where are you placing them?
It's a of a mixed bag, honestly.
I don't know that I've taken anybody into the training program who is at the end of fouryear degree.
think like a lot of times those folks really are ready for a professional drive.

(01:23:02):
Yeah, I don't think that we have into the trainee program.
If anything, they were going into our second company.
I see.
Yeah.
One thing we've heard um from a number of people is that, um and this is not a knock onone direction or the other, but that kids going through college ballet programs are then

(01:23:23):
coming out going into a post-grad program where they're basically competing with studentswho are coming right out of high school.
The benefit is they have a degree and they're not having to do like college on Sundays ontheir day off and that kind of stuff.
ah Do you have an opinion on?
I mean, I know there's a lot of different paths, but how do you talk to your studentsabout kind of the right path for them if their ultimate goal is to dance professionally?

(01:23:53):
Yeah, I mean, really, again, I'm not hiring into the second company or hiring to the maincompany, but what I can say across all of our Academy levels, across our professional
training division, I would assume this is the case.
Professional side as well, is we're looking at readiness.
Are you ready for the rigor and the intensity that is a professional dance career?

(01:24:16):
Because last thing we want to do is put somebody in and get them in a place where theyfeel like they're drowning.
So if somebody has sort of the technical acumen, feel they have a unique artisticperspective.
And that is, I know that feels like, maybe that feels like a cop out, but that's reallywhat I would say to somebody if they're doing a whole suite of auditions and not having so

(01:24:39):
much luck.
I think that it could have just been a bad year and that happens and you.
opportunities just don't present themselves.
But sometimes it's like really just a clear signal of you're not quite ready.
And that can look like a lot of different things.

(01:25:00):
That can look like technical readiness.
That can look like professionalism readiness that needs tuning.
I, again, I don't know if I answered your question, but to me it's really that key pointof readiness.
Is this person ready for what a professional career is gonna ask of

(01:25:22):
I think that's kind of a beautiful place to leave it unless there's something that we havenot covered that you would like to discuss.
Yeah, I don't think so.
I think we've gone all around the map.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, unless there's anything else that you guys want to chat through, I feel like.

(01:25:43):
We could talk to you all day, but we've been chatting for two hours.
I just...
um Okay, hold on, let me close.
David, thank you so much for joining us today.
We really enjoyed chatting with you.
It's my pleasure.
Thank you guys for the beautiful service you're providing.
Thank you.
That's very kind of you to say.

(01:26:05):
All right, I'm turning off the recording.
Hold on.

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David Morse on Training Paths at Cincinnati Ballet

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