MOSA Ballet School: Redefining Dance Training

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Wilfried and Benjamin, thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you ladies for having us.
Of course, we're thrilled to have you.
We're trying to talk to more schools in Europe.
And so we were so excited when you agreed to come on the podcast.
So let's talk about Mosa.
What is it and how long has it been around?

(00:23):
So it's a school of classical and contemporary ballet combined with a secondary school forchildren aged from nine to 20.
It took us three years to create it, and this is the third year of existence.
And maybe Wilfrid could ask something, or could add something.

(00:47):
Yes, it's an international ballet school.
have this year 26 different nationalities.
We opened our doors in August 2022, but it's also more than just a ballet school.
We have our social impact office, Counts en Danse, because the idea from our founder,Benjamin, who is sitting here besides me, was if we become an important ballet school, it

(01:12):
would be a waste of energy and time to only
spend this for ballet and for ballet education, there's a lot lots of people who don't getthe chance to dance.
I mean, she wants that ballet and dance becomes much more inclusive.
So, on Dance, they work around an annual program.
the first year of our existence, it was around Parkinson, dance and Parkinson.

(01:36):
And then we had Mr.
Leventhal from uh America over as one of our speakers.
This year is from cancer to dancer.
So, we have
That's an outreach program.
go in the hospitals with our children to dance, but it's more than that.
We have, for example, a disabled teacher who comes from time to time, who gives workshops.
is a dancer, but in a wheelchair.

(01:57):
And he creates with the students.
We had sessions with our students dancing with dancers who have Down syndrome.
It's lovely to see how our students adapt to that and also to put them with the both feetin the ground, because we have to understand that we are really privileged.
that we could become professional dancers or on their path to become a professionaldancer.

(02:20):
So it's a really great idea that she had and well, that's a big part of our school.
It's in our DNA, the humanity, the inclusivity of dance.
Yeah, we can say that we wanted that Mosa is more and dance is more.
That was the idea.
And these are programs where you your students go out and do performances is that corrector is it that you bring students in.

(02:47):
When it's like for elderly homes and hospitals or people who are like, well, we also hadsessions in the hospital where people are like on their last path of their, well, they are
going palliative, we call it.
So they are on their way out and our students going to give them a good time by to dancefor them.

(03:08):
We also have workshops here.
when people with Parkinson, for example, were invited here or with the Down syndrome andwe have special teachers who are educated to give this special need dance.
They give these workshops, but we also give their education.
So we are organizing education for that.
So our teachers or other teachers who are interested could get an extra education tobecome an inclusive ballet pedagogue.

(03:37):
Okay.
And then can you talk about the programs that are part of your school?
think there's the main program and then there's the pre-professional program.
Can you talk about with each one and in a little bit more detail?
Sure.
Our main program is from the age of 12 till 18.
This is the time that the students are going to the secondary education.

(03:59):
So that's six levels.
There they get classical ballet, of course, point technique, or that's the repertoire,which is male technique then for the guys.
Contemporary classes.
And contemporary classes is really with an underlying technique in it.
It's not just working with choreographers.
We have choreographers coming to work with our students.
A creative process for the performance.

(04:21):
We really want that they have a strong understanding of what contemporary dance is allabout.
Like in ballet, that you can fall back on the knowledge of the technique once when you'reworking with a choreographer, otherwise you feel lost.
Like often we had when we were young, so I said contemporary dance.
And then a really important one, we have character dance.
In every grand ballet, the third act is often the act where you have the Spanish dances,the mazurka and like that, Italian dances.

(04:51):
We have this as well.
Many schools start to forget about it.
It was an obvious kind of thing when we were young.
I had this in my education as well.
In the schools in Russia, they still have this, but a lot of other schools, don't havethis anymore.
And you learn a lot about the musicality also of the dance.
So it's really important.

(05:11):
In the first three years, we also have ancient dances and the ancient dances.
It's an idea that came from our artistic director, Olivier Pate.
He was a dancer, a first-class in the opera de Paris, the Paris Opera, and also a studentof the Paris Opera Ballet School.
And they have this in their education.
And the idea behind it is great.

(05:33):
I wish I had thought of it myself.
In ballet, we are always working on our own most of the time until we come to an age whenwe're going to start to do pas de deux.
If in these three, four years of professional education between the age of 12, 15, 12, 16,
you never touched a girl or the girl was not touched by a guy and all of a sudden you haveto do this ballet pas de deux technique where you hold the time hands on, it might feel

(06:00):
awkward.
But if they start to dance, it's couple dances, the danse ancienne, and they clap in thehands and they take in the waist and it's a kind of almost playful way to dance together
in partnering, which makes it much easier when they come to the big thing and dancing pasde deux.
So we have this for the first three.

(06:28):
You say yes, but you have to say it in
I will translate, of course, Madame de Clout says they also adapt to each other's rhythmwhen you dance together.
It's not only adapting to be physical with one another, but also to dance together, tofeel each other, to feel each other's rhythm.
oh Do you do that with the younger kids and then that's sort of the preparation forpartnering as they get older?

(06:54):
Yeah, that's the first three years of our main program between the age of 12 and 15.
They have this weekly class of these, and then it becomes part of the class in the fourthyear.
And from the fourth year also onwards, they get anatomy classes to understand the body.
well, if you get injured, it's easier if you understand what is injured and what isconnected with this and how do you use this part of the body.

(07:19):
So we have anatomy classes taught by, she is also our osteopath.
So when she is in the house, the people can also, our students can get a treatment by heras well before or after classes.
Then other classes that we still give is ballet history.
In the beginning, we gave this for all the years, every week, an hour class.
But since the load of the courses start to get more and more heavy in the fourth, fifth,sixth, for these last three years and the seventh year, we are not giving, it's on a

(07:50):
weekly base anymore, but in a lecture setting.
When we have somebody around,
or our history ballet history teacher or a guest or our director has some something theywant to talk about and think it's really good which is related to the ballet that we're
gonna dance or something or it can be a guest choreographer or a stager we give a lecturesetting for the older students a couple of times a year and then we have also French

(08:17):
language classes because well
We have a lot of foreigners and we give these French language classes as well.
So they have a better understanding of the language also to integrate in, Belgium becauseyou're living here in the, in the big family house, which the Mosa bar school is, but you
spend also sometimes outside in the weekend.
And then you would like also, of course, to, be able to say a few words.

(08:40):
and the secondary school is in.
In French,
It is so hard.
I mean, it is so hard living in a country where your language, where you don't speak thelanguage.
It is, I'm so glad you're doing language classes.
Now are your ballet classes conducted in French or are they in a different language?
It depends a lot on the teacher.

(09:01):
We have Franco-French teachers and in the lower years when we have mainly French speakingchildren, then it would maybe most of the time French.
But if there is a foreigner, of course, then we also use English.
All our teachers had a career abroad and an international career for a long time.
So we all speak at least French and English.

(09:23):
And then we have teachers, Russian teacher and Ukrainian lady.
So we use the language skills we have.
Some speak a bit of Italian, Spanish.
I speak Japanese.
I use, well, it's really useful for an international school where we also have Japanesestudents that I can talk with them in Japanese.
I can talk with the parents in Japanese.

(09:44):
I don't write a language, but my spouse is, my wife is Japanese.
So if there is something that has to be written or they would like to write, then I lether work a little bit as a voluntary person, footballer as well.
So we all do it to make it for the children the best possible way.
Their time with us has to be the best possible.

(10:06):
And when we can do something because we know people who could help them with, especially alanguage, then we do so.
It's a really important class that I don't want to forget.
It's music and solfège.
So they get also music classes.
also, well, we don't, not going to talk too deep into that, but we have a preparationprogram as well.
That's mainly for the local students, children from nine till 12.

(10:29):
And they also get these, they get rhythm and music.
Ballet goes with music.
So you have to educate that as fast as possible.
It comes kind of naturally for most of us, but it could be that your musicality is not sostrong.
But if you start to work with it on a younger age, I'm sure, and it's also proven that youcan get better at it.

(10:51):
So what is the difference between the main program and the pre-professional program?
The pre-professional program is actually an extra year.
We, especially in after the first year, we saw people who were only a year with us.
They were 17, 18.
And I said to Benjamin, like, uh well, listen, she has a lot of, or he has a lot ofpotential.

(11:12):
It's a pity that they only had a year here because a year extra would give them a lot ofbenefits.
there's students from other schools who maybe were there for six years and they arelooking
for a place like to get like a bit of specialization, specialization or to get stronger inthe technique, to get deeper in it, working with different people.

(11:34):
Also because we have good contemporary teachers.
So let's have a seventh year.
And then it's the pre-professional year.
We have students from our school who continue for another year, but we also have peoplewho come in only for one year.
New students.
Yeah.
We had an American girl this year as well who came over because we can't forget Liège andBelgium.

(11:56):
is in the heart of Europe.
And Europe, there are so many companies.
If you have Belgium as your home base, it's really easy to go for auditions.
You have an audition in Vienna, you take a plane, you're there in two hours.
You go to go by the train, more ecologic, because I know that Benjamin likes the ecologicway.
But if you don't have time, you fly out and within three hours, you're everywhere inEurope.

(12:22):
So I think that's also a strong thing.
If you want to, if you finish your studies and you're in the States, because we aretalking mainly to people from the States and they are focusing to make a career in Europe,
it would be easier from here because you have good training and you just fly out to theauditions.

(12:43):
You're so close by.
you speak into your school a little bit more you talked about these pillars about humanityand things like that could you speak about that in in a lot more depth and understanding
because that is something that is very, very unusual that schools don't typically put ontheir front page of their website.
Maybe I can say it in French and he will because it's quite difficult for me to say thatin English because it's very, it's deep.

(13:10):
uh

(13:32):
Pas bien.
Je vais te laisser traduire.
Okay, so it came from, she had a girl, well, she still has a girl, her daughter was adancer and she left home at the early age of 11.
When your child goes out, she felt like she became a little bit like the coach of herchild and there is things you can help and she saw many good things, but also things that

(13:54):
you go like, this is not really what it should be all about.
Yes, so I thought like a mother.
I'm not a dancer, but everything that could be very easy to to a school and that maybeother schools didn't think about So I wanted first of all that all the staff be committed

(14:21):
to their CV, but also in relation to their benevolence.
I'll there.
When she started to create a school, she was thinking much more as a mother than as aballet person, because she is not a ballet person.
She likes ballet, but she taught when she created the school, I have to think from themindset of a mother.

(14:43):
So everything in the school has to be good for the child.
So when she recruits the personnel, the people who work here, of course, the CV has to begood, but not only that, it's how they are as a human being, which
makes the biggest impact on the, yeah, you need that in a school like this.

(15:03):
So I thought it was important, even if it's a big school, we'll later, here it's still12,000 square that we manage to create like a house, that it doesn't look like a school,
but rather like a house and that we like a family, since there a lot of foreign Sometimesthey are 11, 12 years are far from their family and I thought it would really great to

(15:32):
have
tous les membres du personnel qui soient comme une famille avec ses enfants.
It was important.
Well, maybe we talk about it later.
Our facilities have 12,000 square meters.
wouldn't, more than a school, she would like to create a family setting, a house, becausethese students, are coming often at the age of 11, 12 from far away.

(15:58):
Italy, it doesn't sound so far, but still it's like three, four hours flying from home andthey're living here.
And she would like to have it as
a family setting so all the members of the personal, not only the teachers, but the peoplewho work in the restaurants, who are in the office, they should create that family feeling
for the children, for our students.

(16:20):
That was what I felt I could do as a mother.
I knew that had find people with quality but we found them.
What I also to was that...
What was again?
It's to come back I forgot.
You can say that.

(16:42):
It's going come back me.
So she was sure that she could create this as a model.
She only had to find the right people, the professionals, and she said that she did.
And then there was something still that, but she will come back to that later.
It didn't, it didn't come out.
yes, voilà.
En tant que maman, je vois que les classes de ballet ou de contemporain, c'est beaucoup dediscipline.

(17:07):
La première fois que j'ai vu ça, je ne connaissais rien, j'avais presque l'impression quec'était tous des petits militaires.
Et tellement ils sont disciplinés et c'est très beau à voir, mais on se rend compte de laforce de l'ensemble des efforts et de la difficulté du travail.
Et je trouvais que...
It was good because to get to excellence, need least that.

(17:31):
But I thought that as soon they released dance then we can bring them everything that ispossible.
And it's at that moment, maybe it's in the following questions, that self care, family,the environment, humanity, that's it.
OK, I have to stop.
I'm not a professional translator.
As a mother, when she went out with her daughter, she saw the first time she saw a balletclass, there is lots of discipline.

(17:59):
Like the first time she saw it, it almost looked like she called it like little soldiers.
It was also strict and whatever.
And of course she understands if you want to become excellent, that's a big part of it.
But then at least when they come out of the ballet or dance classes, it should be a more
human way, human way with a human touch like you it can't be hold the time like that youhave to be conscious about what you're doing.

(18:26):
So then consciously, because that is on your website, right?
That you are very conscious about humanity, you're very conscious about some of thesepillars that you have.
However, the first word you have on your website is competitive spirit.
So how do you balance the two and create that in practice?
And then let's start with that, because then I want to get into like teacher training andhow you're doing like breaking cycles.

(18:51):
I'll take that.
Yeah, you take it.
I always said also when I ran the school before I ran another school, it should be ahealthy competition.
You're competing with yourself, but also with your peers in class and you have to beconscious.
It's of course, we are competitive.
When the people ask me what is it to be a ballet dancer, I always said like, I'm anathletic artist.

(19:12):
Above all, we work as athletes and there is a lot of competition amongst us, but we can dothat in a friendly way.
You have to be conscious.
that we are competing and no matter what, there always has to be the human touch on it.
And I think that's what it's all related to.
You should be competitive.

(19:33):
You would like to be the best possible, in my case, the best possible Wilfred as a dancer.
Possible, you work for that, that's your goal setting.
But no matter what, you have to always have this humanity with you.
the respect.
And also, there is competition in relation to oneself.

(19:56):
You already said
it's the competition with yourself.
But like she said, there should always be still the reach.
So how do you put that into practice?
Because like our kids trained at San Francisco Ballet School, highly competitive school.
The kids were very, very, very competitive with each other all the time.
And that bled into all aspects of their relationships.

(20:19):
So what are you doing differently in order to have that quote unquote humanity and humantouch?
What are you doing actually?
You can say what we said, what comes is philosophy.
is the philosophy of our school, is the DNA and it has to come, they're all, even thoughthey think that they are already like young adults, uh especially dancers, we taught to

(20:43):
think that we are really fast adult, but actually they are adolescents, they are stillgrowing up.
It has a lot to do with how you give an example to them, how we as teachers are talking toone another, how I respect also the lady who is cleaning here, the people in the
restaurant when they need.
to have a helping hand.

(21:04):
I don't mind going in and doing the dishes.
I actually did that already in summer intensities when all of a sudden there are so muchparents coming and saying, oh, we didn't count on that.
I jump in the kitchen and I help and let the students see and they go like, wow, he isleading the school but he is helping also in the kitchen.
That's also one of the things that everybody who works in our school, we are not hiringpeople to just come and serve the food.

(21:29):
Everybody here
teacher, pianist, people in the office, they have their day of helping to serve the foodin the canteen.
When they go for the buffet, we are helping them.
It's a normal thing here.
And when you make it normal, then they also treat amongst themselves each other well.
In the three years, we only had once that I really had, it was this year that I had tostep in and I was like, okay, I don't like this behavior amongst yourselves.

(21:56):
Guys, you can't do that.
You came this far from...
all corners of the world to strive for your dream.
You don't want to make it impossible to leave here.
You're living in a commune, you're living like in a family.
You have to treat one another with your brother and sister.
Maybe also you have sometimes like a discussion, but the next day that's it.
It's over.
You have to turn the page and go on.

(22:18):
We live here in a family.
You have to respect one another and they understand.
And then they come to apologize and it happened only once in the three years.
That tells a lot.
and I think also addressing that head on is very helpful to instead of sweeping a lot ofthat under the rug and allowing those things to kind of fester, it creates a different

(22:40):
environment.
So then on the teacher side, what are your teachers doing in practice in class every dayto create that quote unquote human touch and the humanity within a competitive
environment?
Well, first of all, there is a respect to all the students.
It's not like you chrono-mate and you take the time, like how much do you spend with eachsingle student, but every student should be feeling that he or she is valuable in that

(23:07):
class.
You can't have like, this is a cliche from the past, but it was like, oh, the class of,now I say, for example, the class of Zagarova.
And I always had like, yeah, but there was like 17, 18 other girls.
And why, why do we talk only about the class of Zagarova?
So I don't want to have this putting a person on a piet style, like we call it, likeputting it higher than the others.

(23:30):
We don't make anyone feel more important than the other.
Of course, it's contradictions because we come to the performance season and somebody getsto dance the lead and the other not.
But we all worked on it.
And it's, of course, it's also something that we have to teach them that later in life, itwill be like this.
You're always get the solo role you wished for.

(23:52):
But this is a big part of it, how we work with the students, how we teach with thestudents.
I took my own uh pedagogical education in Finland and I'm really happy I did it therebecause they have this magic word, oh a line that they call uh life long learning.
As a teacher, you have to be that open that you learn from the privileged knowledge ofyour students.

(24:17):
We are working in a laboratory here because all these students, had previous students
teachers, one at least, and often they had more.
If you look on how they do a step and you go like, that's totally different, it'sinteresting, I never saw it like this.
You ask and you don't say like, this is wrong.
There's the old fashioned way of teaching.

(24:37):
It's like, I'm the right one, this is wrong, right and wrong.
No, in ballet that doesn't exist.
It's just different.
So you go and you say like, can you show me this once again?
It's interesting, I never saw it like this.
And then if you see that the student has a really good knowledge of it, you ask why he orshe does it this way.
And you go like, hmm, I want to integrate that in my teaching as well.

(24:59):
It's not like I'm going to throw my thing away, but I learned something new again.
And that's just wonderful that you as a teacher still get the chance to learn new things.
That's great about this school.
They have already so many things and they're all selected.
They all have a potential to become a really professional.
At least we believe in that.

(25:19):
And then you see things and you say like, hmm, strange that I never saw this before.
So that's the thing.
And also the big thing, another thing that they say in the Finnish education, thepedagogical view is that a teacher is actually not a teacher.
You are facilitator.
You guide your students from A to Z or wherever they, want to deliver them.

(25:44):
And it goes in all ways.
There's also it's...
You should never be afraid to say like, actually, I don't know this.
have to ask is that my colleague or maybe somebody in the class knows this.
You be more open and don't put this mask on like, okay, I know it all.
did it all.
And now we're going to tell you how to do it.

(26:04):
And that's actually how we grew up.
That's a very good thing that you introduced is to self.
Self-evaluation.
Yeah, that's another thing that I brought from Finland.
So our students, of course, you have to give an evaluation on your students.
So I brought this from Finland where they work already from kindergarten.
It's not only in the ballet world.
It's from kindergarten where children needs to make a self-evaluation.

(26:26):
How was your week, Jan?
Oh, in the kindergarten it goes like, a smile this week or...
a boy that's crying because I had a bad week.
So they have this, they learn this.
It's a skill.
It's a life skill.
You're gonna use it for the rest of your life.
So we integrated that also in the evaluation of the student, just like they do it inFinland, but we made it a bit for our program.

(26:53):
It sits for our school because that's a really nice thing.
So the same documents that the teacher uses to make the evaluation,
the student has exactly the same documents to make a self-evaluation.
So she does it, I do it as a teacher.
It's a lot of work for the teachers.
It's a lot of work because yeah, yeah.

(27:15):
It pushes you to go really deep into every single student and every value, goes from oneto five.
Every number has a written out value.
So for example, um I give a four to a student on a certain point and she gives only athree.
So we have our conversation.
That's the next step.
She reveals or he reveals the score.

(27:37):
say, so why did you give Sonja to this one?
I gave myself a three.
going, no, I gave you a four.
Can I give you a four?
Yes, but no, not yet.
I have still three years to go.
Yes, but it doesn't mean that the spot technique in the first year is the same like in thelast year.
In the first year, you have to do one soutenu.

(27:59):
And in the last year you're doing 32 foites.
It's still the same spot technique, but the technique became so much more advanced.
So yes, you could give yourself a four.
I would say I actually did my evaluation wrong.
You do your single soutenu really well.
I see your head really making a nice spot.
You deserve a five on five.
Can I give you the five on five?

(28:20):
oh A five on five is a little bit too much.
So then we land in between, I can give you a four.
Okay.
You can give me a four and they can still see what they gave first, what I gave first andwhat is the last score.
And the parents can see this as well.
So this makes it really easier for them to understand why their child got only a three onthis and a five on this.

(28:46):
This is the technical part.
Then you have also the parts, which goes more the artistic.
aside, the musicality, how fast do you learn and these kinds of things.
And again, there it's written out what it is.
And then for example, a tree is understands it, it's sufficient, but how was it again,needs still a lot of help of the teacher.

(29:06):
In four needs from time to time help.
And five is done like has understood it, applies it and performs it with an artisticquality or something.
So that makes it really understandable.
It's also you can't give us a teacher like,
he is not really nice in my class, I'm gonna give him only a three.
You can't because at the moment that we talk to each other, he gonna say like, yeah, butah you are not really helping me a lot there.

(29:32):
can do this.
I do this basically on myself.
And then I have to say like, yes, I made a wrong evaluation.
So you can't lie to your students.
That's the magic of this.
And then because they also live in our school, well, the internals and also the externals,we don't have many externals, but still.
They are a big part of the family because you eat here, you get involved with even thecleaning lady and the people who work in the restaurant, the people in the administration

(30:01):
office, the president, how do you behave towards them?
And these kinds of things are also there.
So when you were like a not so nice boy, then you might get really bad scores there,although you're a really good dancer and vice versa.
Maybe your dancing points were like, okay, but nothing special.

(30:21):
But the rest of it is that good that it's all five on five on five on five, doesn't putother people in danger, behaves always really well.
Your social skills, which is for me really important that they understand their socialskills and their working skills.
That's things that you take with you in life, not only when you're a dancer, but also thecareer afterwards, or if you never become a dancer, because that risk is there as well.

(30:47):
These things are going to make your life much more easier and going to give much morevalue to your life.
So when they see this for a students that made a good self-evaluation, let's give anexample, a student who is not that good that we maybe taught too good off in the audition.
And all of a sudden it seems to work not really out.

(31:08):
It can be in the first, can be also in the second tier here.
And she makes a self-evaluation like, okay, actually I'm not taught, taught, taught them.
It's not that good.
two, three, two, three on five, maybe even a one somewhere.
But then the other thing, she's a really nice person.
So on all the other things, which is 50 % of your evaluation anyways, it's almost alwaysfive on five.

(31:30):
This student is still gonna smile and gonna say to us like, well, listen, I made myevaluation, it's really sad.
I think I made the wrong decision.
I'm not gonna become a dancer, but I'm a nice person.
You can make this uh evaluation of yourself like.
I have nothing to blame.
worked for it.
I worked really well.
Unfortunately, I'm not that gifted.

(31:50):
That makes it much easier for us in the first year too.
There were people that we would have had to say the bad message, but they made theevaluation themselves and they said like, actually on the end of the year, I decided to go
back home.
Much easier.
Yeah.
Really?
Yeah.
And several, because if you know the history of our school, there was an other artisticdirector who it didn't work.

(32:16):
uh It didn't work out.
And before the doors opened, we came in, um Olivier Patet and myself.
So there were also people that we did not audition and maybe we have a different view onit.
But during that year, by doing these two evaluations, one, two evaluations, one in theDecember, in the Christmas period, and one towards the end of the year.

(32:37):
They make this evaluation and for themselves, say like, no, it's not the right thing.
They are really happy with how I behave in class and la la la, but technically, no, I'mnot strong enough.
from, let's say, if we see on a hundred percentage, from the hundred percent that we werethinking like, okay, maybe it's better that he or she leaves.

(32:59):
I think 70 to almost 80 % of the students understood by doing their evaluation is betterthat I leave.
which makes our life so much more easy because we are not the messenger of the negativenews.
And it's also important to show that they can be proud of what they've so far.

(33:20):
It's not a failure.
What they've done so far is extraordinary and unique.
And with his way of giving his grades, I think we've succeeded in doing that.
So you should translate.
um With this type of evaluation, it also tells them that they can be proud of the workthat they already did till here.
It's like, for example, you fail in your second or third year for yourself or because ofthe talk that we decided together that it's not really going in the right direction.

(33:48):
But maybe the first year you had already good points and then it went a little bit downand you say like, okay, there was a moment that I really learned what it was.
And then of course the technique gets a little bit difficult and
It did not work, but it still gives you a kind of a feeling or it should give it to themlike something great.
I achieved something.

(34:10):
So you do these evaluations twice a year and then you meet with your students and go overthe entirety of the evaluation and have a dialogue about all of that twice a year.
And then are parents included in those conversations or?
There's the next step.
So we have the vis-a-vis face-to-face meeting with the students and where we agree,commonly agree what the points are going to be.

(34:36):
And then this is their report card, so to speak.
That's what the parents get.
So the parents get this, for instance, this time it will be next week, no, in two weeks,Friday, they will get this one.
And then from the Monday afterwards, after the weekend, so they have time to also discusswith their child, we do online meetings with the parents.
Who wants it?
Yeah, who wants it?

(34:57):
We don't force them, but if they want, they can talk with uh somebody of the direction, ofcourse, their ballet teacher and their contemporary teacher.
Honestly, it takes two months.
I was going to ask how long does it take you to get all of this done?
That's a lot of time.
It depends how many students you have, no?
So for instance, there is the contemporary teachers because they only need two and they dothe same evaluation for our over 100 students.

(35:26):
So for them, it's a, yeah, yeah, it's a lot of work.
In the beginning, I'm sure that a few of them are like, wow, what is this?
But actually it gives you the time to it.
Yeah, it gives you, and you need to take the time.
It's not only like it gives you the time.
you need to take the time to go through each of your students and it's healthy.

(35:47):
It's what's needed.
Otherwise it's just like, okay, I don't like her for one or the other reason.
And like in some schools is the case and they just give you her.
I always as a student myself, I had this question like, how comes that I get a seven onthis?
This guy in front of me got an eight and just behind me, he only got a five.
But actually some of the things that he does are better than me and the one with theeight.

(36:10):
I'm sure that I'm better in many things.
So what is the value of your points?
How did you decide that you got an eight out of 10 or a five out of 10?
And since we give it value, every number is there, there's no point of discussion anymore.
It's because, yeah, there is discussion possible, of course, but the value is written outand you say like, well, listen, it's getting better.

(36:37):
But five on five,
artistic expression in this part is not yet there so it there is still growthpossibilities there and they take it.
There is also something very important, that parents entrust with children.
I always as a mother, we have this almost to educate And I find that the technique youhave put in place forces them to talk to the teacher, which is not always easy, and to

(37:09):
give their opinion and to say that they do not agree.
And I find that it actually makes human beings...
courageous and responsible.
So what she said is in short that the parents, give their children in our hands.
It's like what we said often when we have the meetings with them, it's the most preciousthing that they have, they give in our hands and often far away from home.

(37:37):
So we have the responsibility, like she said, like almost a responsibility to educate alsothem.
It's not only teaching them dance, but it's the education.
100 % of the education because we are like kind of their surrogate parents almost here.
So we have to guide them very well.

(37:58):
And this as a teacher, because we have these face-to-face meetings, we need to have thisdiscussion going.
We need to talk.
The other day it was one of my contemporary teachers said like one of the Japanesestudents and um she said to him like, and do you know?
Yes.
And she said like, no, no, I don't want to hear only yeses.

(38:19):
I want you to explain to me what you actually feel here.
So we force them also to get this conversation going.
And what Benjamin just said also, what is really nice in the team that I put in placetogether with my team, we worked this out together.
I brought the idea on, but the thing we worked out together, the questions or whatever,how we formulate them.

(38:41):
What is really nice and important is the day as a student can say like,
No, don't.
I'm in a bit of a disagreement here.
I don't think that I am already that advanced or in contrary, like I see myself already onthe four and how come you only see me on the three here?
Can you please explain me?
Because if I read the value, it tells this and this and this and this.

(39:05):
And here it tells like you should be always almost like pushing me to do that.
And then you go like
Yeah, you're right.
I have to...
I have to apologize and say that you are right.
And it's this conversation between a teacher and a student where a teacher puts him on thesame level as the student you're talking with and say like, actually, you're right.

(39:28):
I have to apologize.
think this is just such a wonderful idea that I wish more teachers would implement.
think this is incredible you guys are doing this because I do think sometimes it maybetriggers in a teacher because nobody's perfect, right?
And maybe you realize you really have been ignoring a certain student for a while, orreally not paying attention to x, y or z.
And then because you have those conversations, and the student can kind of say like, well,I see myself having done these things and deserve a four.

(39:55):
And the teacher's like, my gilson really haven't been paying that much attention or Ireally haven't been engaged in that way or noticing an oath.
And it creates that very interesting dialogue.
I really like that you're talking about that and then putting it into practice and notjust doing it for, you know, your first year and then maybe backing off because it's a lot
of work and it's hard and whatever, but you're really digging in and continuing to dothat.

(40:18):
I do think it also helps teachers.
Realize like, gosh, in a few months, I need to be evaluating them on all of this.
And I have to pay attention to all hundred, not just, you know, my top three students.
How receptive have teachers, the teachers at your school been to this?
Because our experience is it's a lot of one way communication.

(40:39):
This puts the teachers in a position where there's a lot of dialogue between the studentsand the teachers.
You know, when I look back to it, it's amazing that everybody kind of accepted it rightaway positively.
But you have to understand how our school is.
They also all stepped in this project.

(40:59):
We started from zero.
We are not inheriting a school here.
We start to create something from zero.
The fact of we had to be humain and like bienveillance, they say in French, like a humantouch with anything you do.
We heard this on a daily base and you just have to go with it.

(41:20):
If it's, if it's not your personality, then I think this teacher would step out, like outof the project.
think for some people, maybe it was difficult, but now they, think everybody likes it.
don't say that they go like, patient time, let's sit three hours or three days behind mypapers.
teachers excited about report card time, not ever.

(41:43):
But it's part of it.
It just has to be there.
And the beautiful thing is, because you mentioned another school before, I don't want tomention schools, but we have students who were in other schools.
And when I had these discussions with the parents, they went like, this is something thatwe have never seen before.
And it's not one parent who says this is most of the parents, because in the beginning,must also have thought like, what on earth is this?

(42:11):
pages of self-evaluation, just tell her if she is good or bad.
But maybe they do it together with the parent also, because it's difficult for a firstgrader to go through this and understand everything.
And most probably the parents, go like, wow, they put actually a lot of effort in this.
And they appreciate that very much.

(42:32):
And then I have question.
Do you guys also allow your students to evaluate you as teachers?
Well, that comes partly in these meetings that we have.
And there is something else, but it's going to be a surprise for the teachers that aregoing to put this here because in Finland, I mean, it's in higher education.
Normally in secondary education, you don't have to do it, but in higher education, youobliged to do it.

(42:54):
So when I was running the Finnish National Ballet School, I did it there as well when Ifinished my pedagogical studies.
They call it a walking corridor.
We talked about it last week.
And you put a few work, like you, it's like big post-its.
or big white papers and you write keywords.
You write ballet class, lunch, cleanliness, everything you want to know from them.

(43:17):
And then you let them walk through and they just write their comments on.
And then on the end you collect it and it's really valuable because children are honestand they're going to tell you like, well, the toilets could be a bit more cleaner.
And then you go like, okay, good point.
I also noticed that you can go to the cleaning personal and you say like, listen, theyalso noticed these.

(43:37):
So often in ballet, when you get feedback, we think of it as negative and it's not true.
Feedback is something needed to make yourself better.
If you never get feedback and the people don't point out what is not good, you think thatyou're doing a terrific job, but actually you're getting worse in your so-called terrific

(43:58):
job because you're going to try to get it better, but you're making it even worse.
it's, especially as a new school where we started from zero,
We have to ask this and we ask this often.
uh It's also, get feedback from the students.
We put a board of the students in place.
My son is a dancer as well.
And he was in another school after at age 15, I send them to another school.

(44:22):
So, okay, it's time that you go to learn from somebody else.
So I know how I did it.
I know how my teachers did it.
I know how my son was in another school.
And from all the things that I think that were like, wow.
Okay, I put this in place.
Like one of the things that he said to me, father, if ever again, you are a director in aschool, you have to put a student's board in place because it's so important.

(44:47):
We talk amongst ourselves and then the representatives, they come to talk with you as adirector and somebody else.
And they give you from the beginning when something goes wrong.
or they are not happy about something.
And sometimes it's really like little things that you go like, is it only this?
Sure.
We change this tomorrow.

(45:08):
But if we did not know it, we are stubborn as well.
And you keep on doing because you think it's right.
And just when you say, okay, then I go for a five minute longer break.
Makes sense.
Boom.
And they're all happy.
And it's so easy.
And I'm so thankful that he gave me that advice because we did it from the beginning.
It's not every month, but let's say

(45:30):
three, four times a year, the students feel themselves when they should meet.
Every class level has two representatives, a male and a female.
When there is a male in some classes, you might have only one.
And he says like, that's not my thing.
then, it can be only one female or they do it with two, it doesn't matter.
They meet in their class community.
And then there is a representatives of all the students, which were often therepresentatives of the sixth year, of the last level of the main program.

(45:57):
They gather all the points.
And then we have a meeting and they say like this and this and this and this.
And okay, yes.
And this we heard already before.
So it's still happening.
Okay.
I will talk again with this, with this person.
It avoids having bigger conflicts.
And then once a year they have the meeting with the president, then they can talk withBenjamin and I'm not there.

(46:20):
So they can start to talk bad about me.
Like, Wilfred actually this and this and this.
It didn't really happen, but there's little things that you go like, yeah, I can pay moreattention to this.
Sure.
And it makes it, if they see that the change happens, it makes the children even morehappy.
And they might go home and they say like, listen, afraid to say this, the breakfast, itshould be a little bit more like these or that.

(46:43):
And we were afraid to say, and actually when we said it two weeks later, everything was inplace the way we wanted it.
So parents are happy, students are happy.
And when they are happy, we are happy.
So it's one.
I think when you do when when you listen to your students and you put changes in place forthe easy stuff, right, like changing the food or adding five minutes to the breaks, that

(47:09):
trust gets built.
And I think that has been a real problem in ballet schools, especially schools that havebeen around for a very long time.
It's really hard to change culture and.
Little things where students are asking for a break to go to the bathroom or break to beable to have water or to be able to have a snack without somebody looking at you funny for

(47:36):
what you're eating.
That builds trust really quickly.
And then you can deal with some of the bigger stuff because the students feel like you areyou're behind them and you have their back.
And I love
that you guys are treating this kind of like a startup.
You're taking all the good stuff that you've seen in ballet training, but you're leavingthe not so good stuff by the side of the room.

(48:00):
And I love that.
Well, that's actually one of the biggest gifts in my life that I could work here and it'sa one time in a life thing.
I don't want to do this twice starting a school from zero because it really takes yourlife.
And the last three years have been really hectic, but to start off and especially in thesetting like this, an international school that I always wanted to do, I was limited in

(48:25):
before because it was a national school.
This one is really like we can take from everywhere in the world.
but to start it from zero to help to build it up because you don't have to, like you said,take out old habits.
this, I'm so sometimes I feel sorry for my colleagues in the international ballet worldbecause yes, finally you became a director of a great school, but it's also like, I hope

(48:50):
there's not too much falling out of the cupboards here because you don't know actuallywhat the people did just before you, but also not what they did 50 years ago.
and these kinds of things, they are still coming back in the news and that might cost yourjob, although you had nothing to do with this.
And that's what we saw the last couple of years happening.
And it's good that people become more talkative, but we have to only look to ourselves inthe mirror every morning and say like, did you do the right thing?

(49:19):
There was no free desert for me.
I'm the first one who was doing this job here.
So I have to take my responsibility.
And hopefully all our teachers and all our personal does the same thing.
So it's a gift to work like that.
And you talk about snacks, snacks and water.
Actually, maybe that's the only ballet school in the world where the students get everyday chocolate.

(49:44):
600 kilos per an.
I don't know, isn't that a requirement coming from the...
600 kilos of chocolate a year we give to our students, but it's chocolate of 70 or 80 %cacao.
So there is no added sugar to it because oh a day is really long.
And between the lunch and dinner time, you're working five till six hours.

(50:09):
So there is a time that you need a snack.
they get dry fruit, a piece of real fruit, like dry fruit is not something like that.
real fruit from the season and chocolate and water.
We have water fountains, which is water that is filtered.
And then it's a system.
goes through a spiral who gets again, the force of nature is put it back in that water.

(50:33):
And we have fountains here and the people drink it and they all have to have metal flaconsbecause she doesn't want to have plastic in the school.
You guys also have a lot of material on your website about self-care.
Mm-hmm.
How does that fit into your overall training program?

(50:54):
Well, it's part of our philosophy.
It forms everything we do from teaching to evaluating, from breathing to drinking waterregularly.
So we have actually hanging in our building, nice pictures that reminds the students thatthey should don't get dehydrated, drink enough water, sleep enough.
These kinds of posters are hanging everywhere in the building.

(51:17):
So it reminds them.
Also the food, we are working together with
scene is
S-I-I-N is the scientific institution for intelligent nutrition.
These people, they balanced out our nutrition because as a dancer, you need to have enoughenergy in the morning to be able to go to study in school and at noon to eat a lot of

(51:44):
power, get a lot of power to train for five, six hours.
And then in the evening,
eat something that will help you to relax and take care of the body.
So it's all balanced out.
Like for example, I thought that orange juice was the best thing ever in the world.
I hold my carrier, I was starting the day like, okay, I start healthy before I have mycoffee, let's start healthy.

(52:06):
had the sugar bomb came in, I didn't know I was like, nobody told me.
So my whole carrier, I was having orange juice.
So when I had the first talk with these people from CNN was so
Wilfred, how would you eat as a well?
think I start really healthy.
have my orange juice.
Okay.
There we are.
You're already wrong there.
I'll say, uh

(52:27):
That was a principle.
answer.
I didn't know.
Maybe my teachers told me along the way but not good enough so it didn't stay in my brain.
But I don't think back in the 80s we paid attention to that.
So our children, yes well it's not easy for them because of course everybody has in theirculture their own habits.
Like for Italians for example it's normal that in the morning you have chocolate on yourbread but well sorry we don't serve this because that's the sugar bomb again.

(52:53):
you get in school and after an hour you get your first dip and you can't concentrateanymore on what your teacher is saying because you ate the wrong thing.
So she really has thought about everything when she built this school.
So the nutrition is great, healthy well-being, like I said already, it's not only theteachers who have the talks with the students, everybody actually who works in Moza is a

(53:18):
contact person.
for the students when they feel bad about anything or they have a question, they should beable to just grab anyone's shoulder and say like, listen, I want to talk about this.
When it gets really important, we will get to know it anyway.
The board of directors with my faculty, we start a week with every week, a faculty meetingevery Monday morning.

(53:40):
I meet all the teachers and the first topic there is like students matters.
The student do matter, but also the student matters.
Is there something wrong?
Please share it amongst ourselves here, try to find solutions.
That's how we start the week.
And then every Tuesday, we have a director's board meeting.
So then I can bring also the problems of the students, but the problems of my team alsoforward to the director's board.

(54:04):
And then that's how we work.
say that we have five directors.
Yeah, we have five directors here.
eh Communication director, IT director, philanthropy, canton d'ance, the social impactoffice that I talked about before.
and coordination of operations.

(54:24):
coordination and then you have, well, you forgot the artistic director.
Oh, yeah, sorry.
There is actually a seventh because um we do this together.
Olivier Pate and I, we are the dance management and we are running the school together,the artistic vision of the school.
So it's a big group, but it's because we communicate constantly that you can always findyou in everything.

(54:50):
And that's for the well-being of the students.
Also, we have connections with certain telepaths when whatever is the problem, that's alsosomething I learned in my education in Finland.
As a teacher, you have to know that there is a moment that you can't be of help.
You can guide your students to find the right help.

(55:11):
Because if there is some mental thing going on and they are depressed, for example,because it happens, it's
it's a really competitive world and they are doing auditions.
Nowadays going on auditions is not really easy.
You send all the material in and if they don't like it, you only get negative feedbackback.

(55:31):
So, well, they start to question themselves.
If in that moment, you as a teacher ask the wrong question, the box of Pandora opens infront of you and anything can jump in your face.
So we had it only once up till now.
But then we find the person which is the right person to go and talk to, the psychologist.

(55:57):
You don't have to try to fix it.
We can give our parents heart to them, but there are times that you have to say like,okay, listen, I can't help with this, but we will find you somebody who can help you.
We have list of therapists who can help.
It's part of self-care.
We privileged entrances to hospitals.

(56:20):
Yeah.
So we have a list with, like I said, with certain therapists that we know like, okay, forthis, you contact this person.
This person speaks Russian or this person is really good in English because we are livingin the Francophone zone here, French speaking.
And then the CHU is the university hospital of Liège.
It's a partner of us.
So whenever we have a big case, also for smaller things, but for, especially for if reallysomebody gets injured, we get the direct access to see the best doctors there.

(56:49):
It's a FIFA hospital connected to it.
Well, you told me that you were both playing soccer, so I don't have to explain what FIFAis.
So they are a FIFA hospital and we get right away access that normally it takes a lot oftime to get through because well, we are athletes.
We can't just wait.
It's urgent when we need help.
And then we have two chiropractors who come, a physio, physiotherapist who come in theschool.

(57:15):
We have a medical cabinet, so they come in the school.
Our students don't have to go out.
And then uh the CHU hospital that I just talked about, they're also having another branch,which is only about 10 minutes walking from here.
So there is for special needs therapeutic sessions, they could go there.
And I told early in our session that we have this anatomy teacher who is a chiropractorand she can treat the people on Fridays as well.

(57:40):
So we have most of the things here at place in the school.
question about students who come from other schools.
What is their reaction when they get to your school after being at a much more traditionalballet program?
Well, sometimes they really say this and there are really, really nice testimonials.

(58:00):
And then you go like, we are doing the right thing.
Especially, well, we were now in this situation.
Maybe you found it out on the news that we have some support issues and then you gettestimonials from students, former students, parents, that you go like, it's really hard
to keep your tears up.

(58:21):
It really, it's.
it's touching to see that.
Wow, we are actually doing a really great job.
So what happened, can you explain the funding issue?
We saw a little bit of it in the news, but I was under the impression that most balletschools, like Mosa, are state supported.
So what's going on?
welcome
Yes.

(59:11):
public authorities.
We have lot of in Belgium and Europe.
And it these public authorities that have been removed.
So it's a bit of a disaster.
So we have an annual budget that is around 5 million euros, which is about 5 milliondollars.
30 % of that money comes from tuition fees, but also from income from uh the benefits fromour summer intensive courses.

(59:33):
So that's 30 % that should generate from that.
30%, another 30 % comes from private sponsoring and society.
of society, of enterprise.
yeah, I was going to say that and companies like for example, a private bank in Belgiumhere is one of our sponsors, but also from philanthropy.

(59:55):
It's a 30%, that's 60 % and then the last 40 % should come from public funding, whichoften is the case that all the school is sponsored by, gets the money from the public.
And here it only counts to 35 to 40%.
So
It's not that much money that the government is actually has to give to the school orwould like them to give to us to keep the boat afloat.

(01:00:22):
But of course they look to it as a private business and they did not really, I think,understand which impact we have.
Like today, when we already decided to have this meeting two weeks ago, we decided like,okay, we have to open the doors that the people see what we are actually doing here.
Because otherwise, Mosa Bali school is just a beautiful
building that used to be a bank and yeah, it's a problem there.

(01:00:47):
So I said to Benjamin, it's time that we open the doors and we had to date 250 visitorscoming to see what we are actually doing to make them aware that this is not just another
balesco.
So, well, what the problem was there that the 40%, the 1.2 million annually that we gotfrom the Federation Bruxelles Wallonie was taken away.
Completely.

(01:01:09):
Not like, okay, from now on, we're going to give you 800,000.
No, no, from the 1.2.
And that was a, well, yeah, cold shower, no, because we already get 60 % of our annualbudget from sponsoring that could find that other 40%.
It's also like Benjamin always says, like, the school would not be sustainable.

(01:01:30):
Whatever happens with one of our main donation, donators or whatever the
anything can happen with that 60%.
Like we had a COVID time.
If the school closed and you can't ask tuition fee, but you still have to be able to payall the bills.
So if we would face something like that and you don't have any governmental subsidiessupport, it would be really hard to sustain.

(01:01:56):
And that's why it's really important that they understand that it's a present for theBallot World, but especially for a little country like Belgium that we have again,
a school with an international al-du'er face and it's going well.
So it would be a pity that it would be taken away.
What percentage of your students are coming from outside Belgium?

(01:02:18):
from outside Belgium, I would say 70 to 80%.
It's a truly international school.
That feels to me like something that the government should be supportive of.
Wow.
So how are you trying to replace the funding?
Well, first of all, trying to change the politic politicians mindset.

(01:02:40):
We have been in contact with them.
Certain politicians came to visit.
They came to see how we are working.
Of course, you need to get the right ones to come and see you with the ones who can reallymake the decision at first.
And but Belgium is a complex country.
Maybe for you, you don't know the Belgian politics, but we always have to work incoalition.
It's not like in America where you have the Democrats or the Republicans, you hear youhave

(01:03:05):
multi-parties and it's rarely in the history of Belgium that one party can lead alone.
You always have to come to a compromise.
So there it makes it difficult when you have a project like this, like three years ago thepoliticians they supported it.
We had elections last year.
There's a change of politics.

(01:03:25):
People who are in charge, the majority changed.
And if you just have this on the election year,
It's really difficult if you're running already in it and then you have to start talking.
But when the new ones are in for them, it's easy to say like, well, but that was the oldones who gave you that.
So, and there, of course we have to convince them that it's not a political game here.

(01:03:48):
We are giving education and we are putting Belgium again on the map in the ballet world.
And with a really nice project, we have a lot of positive feedback.
can, it only.
How can I say it?
It generates positivism and on top of it also, it has a financial impact on the regionhere.
Yeah, yeah.

(01:04:09):
It gives a lot of optimism and financially also we have all these students who come, theirparents, come in the Christmas performance or in the summer performance, or they come to
bring them.
They sometimes come to visit them when they have a longer holiday in whatever country theyare coming from.
They are taking a hotel, they go to hotel, they money into...

(01:04:29):
in the country and especially in this region.
So, well, if they understand that and they start to understand it, hopefully, well, westay positive.
It's not been easy the last couple of months.
I also said to my team, and also in the director's board when we had meetings, said, guys,I think we should just go on like it is another COVID crisis.

(01:04:50):
And back then, five years ago, it was the same thing.
It came to us like a wave.
and you just had to keep on going.
Your mindset was there and you kept on planning, planning, planning, planning until theysaid, okay, we can't go further if they decide so well, but we have to be prepared to just
keep on going.
If we give up, well, then it falls apart.
It's not always easy to keep the mindset going, we see all these happy people every day.

(01:05:16):
We have really good contact with the parents because we are really open communicative.
So like we had already
two times now in this period that we had meetings set up like we are talking now.
International Talk is our general manager.
She speaks Italian.
Benjamin does the talking French and I translated in English and in Japanese.

(01:05:37):
So all the parents, they get the message and they really appreciate that althoughsometimes there is not much of news to be told, but even if there's like a little bit,
because they also need to get this news out, there is still hope.
And when there's hope, there's life.
Well, then let's keep the hope going.
So let's talk about your academics.

(01:05:57):
So how does that work, especially with your non Belgian, non French speaking students andthat approach to their academics while they're also training ballet?
Well, this was a really good thing that Benjamin said.
When the students are here, everybody has to have the same regime.
Everybody studies, academic studies until the age of 18.

(01:06:18):
You do your secondary education and besides you get good ballet training.
It's not a choice.
The choice is made for you.
You do everything.
That's the program.
We work with a partner school.
which is on a walking distance here, five minutes away, a big secondary school, whichgives really good education.
But of course, like I said earlier, we are in a French speaking country.
So at least at this part of the country, the education is in French.

(01:06:42):
So the first year, everybody had to go there.
And we saw students coming back at noon, especially Japanese people.
You get mathematics and everything.
It's already hard to understand English.
Then French like...
maybe a few courses you took a little bit classes before you came here, but not enough tohave the understanding.
And you saw them coming back like already tired before they even started dancing and theymoved all the way from Japan or wherever they came from to live in Belgium to become a

(01:07:13):
better dancer.
And I said to Benjamin, we have to find a solution for this.
So as we have two classrooms here from the second year, we give the option for studentswho finished
In Japan, they have the same system like in America, you have the junior high school andthen you have the high school.
So when you're finished your junior high school, we give them the chance to start to dotheir online studies because they have these programs running in Japan.

(01:07:39):
I know it because I used to live in Japan.
So I was like, why not to give them the chance to do that?
We have our classrooms here.
It is rather stupid that we have them.
We found out that at night they were like using their phone and while they acted that theywere sleeping, they were actually doing their Japanese studies as well to make sure that
they could complete their studies at home.

(01:08:01):
I was like, but
are killing them.
can't do this.
This is not our bienveillance, our pillar of humanity.
It's shaking there.
We need to do something.
So then we came to that what I just explained that they can do their studies online.
Most of them are Japanese, but we have also people from other countries who does the samething.
Slovakia, Brazil.

(01:08:22):
uh
they do the same thing.
I follow it up, not only weekly or a monthly basis, but regularly I ask them to show metheir results that we can see like, okay, okay.
Maybe you need a little bit more help on mathematics or something, because we can offerthat help.

(01:08:42):
There was a big community of voluntary people.
who are coming to help out our students in their studies.
Some have a problem with mathematics or with science.
Actually, there is one guy who is here from the beginning.
is from the French speaking part from Liège, but he worked whole his career in the nuclearplant in Antwerp in the Flemish speaking part.
So he's perfectly bilingual and on of it, he speaks also English and he was an engineer.

(01:09:06):
So mathematics and science for him is like, he loves doing that.
So he is here whole.
almost every year.
He comes to help the students to help their French or science so they get better resultsin the school.
oh
incredible idea to bring in people voluntarily to tutor and especially tap into yourretired community to give them purpose and something to do but also to really share

(01:09:36):
knowledge.
oh
like to do.
That's what people like to do, sharing their knowledge and being in a house like this with26, 27 different nationalities.
For them, it's like, wow, I still have something.
I'm 65, I'm retired, but look at me here.
I'm working with a young Brazilian girl.

(01:09:57):
Okay, how can I help you?
And you see these people like every time they come here.
It's great to see this because they want to be part of this.
It's special.
But besides all of these efforts, there is also Japanese people who decide like, no, I dothese studies in French.
So we have one Japanese now and one from Taiwan and they speak perfectly French, betterthan me.

(01:10:22):
And I'm like, wow, that's amazing.
So they do all their studies in the French language.
Also for those who are studying here, we still give them a weekly French class.
And then in the beginning of the season, especially for the first four months up tillChristmas,
We also have extra classes in French for the students who came just in here.

(01:10:43):
So they have extra French class on Saturdays so that they get an extra boost of thelanguage because that makes their life in the academics much easier.
You keep talking about a house.
Can you tell us a little bit about what that is?
It's more a home than a house.
A house is a building.
So it's more the home feeling.

(01:11:04):
In the first year, all our students were like the ones from coming abroad.
They were staying in the boarding school, in the boarding, in internet.
From the second year onwards, we also start to work together with uni.
It's like student apartments from the university.
We have a whole floor that is reserved for our students.
We did this for two reasons.

(01:11:25):
to open up space in the internet for the young students who come because the school isgrowing.
By the way, our internet has about 90 beds.
yeah, single rooms, double rooms up to rooms of four.
So there's space enough, but we wanted to create already the space for if the school wouldget bigger and really important.
That was my idea after all that I said, well, listen, when you're 18 and we take that goodcare of them, the moment that they walk into a company and they have to

(01:11:55):
it's first of all, they start to work in a company and secondly, they have theirindependent life and they never lived on their own.
Maybe it's better that we give them a little bit of a smooth transition.
So from the age 16, they can choose to live in one of these apartments, but they can stillopt to take full pension here.
So they can come even for breakfast here.

(01:12:16):
Lunch, it's not an option.
Everybody eats here in the school.
So when the kids from the academics come home in the school at 12.30,
They meet with the people who are from the pre-professional and those who are studyinghere in the restaurant and we all eat together.
12.30 we have this out balanced food.
They all eat that.
It's not an option.
It's for everybody.

(01:12:37):
Also, of course, there is vegetarian option.
And then we go to the dance classes.
And then the evening, the ones who are living in these apartments, they can take theoption that I first eat here and then go to my apartment or they cook for themselves in
the evening.
Benjamin has to leave us.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you so much to have invited us and me and we'll go on.

(01:13:02):
It was so nice to meet you.
Thank you.
Can we turn the conversation to performance opportunities and what your students get to dothroughout the year?
So, well, I know it by heart, but I wrote some things down, but just to make sure.
The performance opportunities in the school, we have two main performance productions ayear.
One is the Christmas, like the winter performance we call it.

(01:13:24):
With that one, we perform here in the Theater of Liège, and we go to Brussels.
So, all the school gets in the buses and we have our mini tour and perform in Brussels.
It's always...
It's great for the students.
It's like a day you go to perform in another city that we do since the second year, thefirst year we only did in Liege.

(01:13:47):
And then we have the annual recital that's on the end of the year, where this year we havemore like we work around smaller classical parts like from Coppelia or a little humbuck
horse.
There's little things and really important contemporary, but also creations, especiallyfor the last year.
I really wanted the last two years, the fifth and the sixth, it's a creation.

(01:14:12):
So the students, get to know how to work with choreographers, what your input can be,because the creation can be really like receiving, but you can also be part of it by
suggesting another move.
he finished his move and you just add something to it.
And all of a sudden your step becomes part of the content of the piece of the creation.

(01:14:33):
So.
For the moment, that is the main performances, but we also have little events and gigs.
Like last week, for example, we had for our, one of our main sponsors is the private bank,Deelen in Belgium.
And for their clients, they wish to have an evening and then we put an evening together.
Our main studio downstairs on the ground floor.

(01:14:55):
It has a magic wall where we use it just as a studio.
You look up to a white wall, but we can open that wall.
And then it becomes a stage setting.
All our studios are equipped with Harlequin floor, bounce floor with Harlequin carpet ontop of it.
So when we open that wall and the public is sitting on the other side, we are havingactually our little theater in the school.

(01:15:21):
So we have this a few times a year when we have a VIPs who are coming VIP also in otherevents they ask us like this week we have tomorrow actually on Friday.
We have the university, one of the universities here in Liège has their gala evening andthey asked us to come and perform in there.
And then we went to see and it's not a huge stage, it's all little stages around and wewere like, okay, that's gonna be something contemporary then.

(01:15:47):
So with the students, yeah, you learn them to be flexible as well and to have their owninput because they also have improvisation technique and like that in their contemporary
classes.
So, yeah.
I mean, that's part of being a dancer, right?
Learning how to pivot in not ideal situations.
Or you learn the stage is raked.
You're like, okay, well then let's just...

(01:16:08):
We have actually one rake studio.
It's an old building that is renewed and one of the studios, one of our big studios iswith a rake of 5.5 % which is about the same like they have in the Paris Opera on the
stage of the Paris Opera.
especially for our Italian students it's like almost like feeling like homecoming becausethey have a lot of old theaters who still have a rake.

(01:16:32):
Yeah.
So they can practice in there when you go for auditions, for example, for a company thatyou know that is going to be a Rake stage, you can already practice before you go there.
It's not going to be your first time.
And we have classes in there.
I rotate the classes that the older students get normally once a week in that Rake studio.
that's smart to prepare them.

(01:16:53):
So let's talk more about how you prepare your upper level students.
Can you talk about the career sport that you offer for your upper level students to taketheir next steps after they leave your school?
Yeah, it starts first of all, I do this myself.
I made preparing for professional life course.
That's in the beginning of the school year.
We built our CV together.

(01:17:14):
It's not that I say, okay guys, this is the CV and you put in your own information andthat's how you do it.
No, I show them how I made my first CV 30 years ago and how it is nowadays.
And then I ask them, what are the big differences?
Well, in the old days, especially at least here in Europe.
It was built from, this is where I started and the last page is where I am today.

(01:17:36):
And nowadays is the opposite.
So these kinds of things, you can explain them or you can also let them understand it.
So I show my CV, then the one of my son who was a dancer nowadays.
So, and then I compare them.
So what are the most important things to put in a CV?
Then I'll let them answer and they all come up with ideas.
And sometimes it's like, Oh, okay.

(01:17:57):
I never thought of that.
Is this really actually needed for a dancer's CV that you like cooking in like that?
Maybe if you really think so, you can add it to it.
Me, if I was a ballet director, I don't think that I'm really interested in that, but whynot?
It's an option.
So we go through this, they build their own CV.
Then I look at it and we do the same thing um with questions and like that.

(01:18:22):
I let them understand which companies that they should go.
to audition for because a company might be really good for me, but for my friend, Eve, itmight be not a good company because he would like to dance more contemporary and I would
like to dance more classic.
So don't apply for any option that is available there.

(01:18:44):
You have to already like, I'm going to say like make a short selection.
And I help them with it just by asking questions like which are the repertoire that wantto dance, which choreographers I would like to work with.
And then I give them the task that they should go and see which companies are actuallyoffering this.
And then comes the next.
Let me ask you, do you have a question, like a conversation with them of like, you're fivethree, they tend not to take answers under five five.

(01:19:11):
This is not a great school.
This is not a great company for you.
Do you have those kinds of like honest conversations where you really to try to find whatwould be like a good fit for them?
Yes.
Yes.
And that comes along the way because that's why it's so interesting that it's not only meor Olivier saying like, okay, this should be a company for you.
But because I do this in the group setting, it's again, the spirit of together we knowmore.

(01:19:34):
So they do their research.
It's the flipped classroom system.
I don't know if you know this in the States that they use this, but that's how I did mypedagogical education.
They give you tasks, you do your research and then my research, but also of the 20 otherpeople comes on the table.
And there's a lot of information there.
And then we have to find what is the relevant information here.

(01:19:56):
So then we come with a short list of companies and then we talk through the companies.
And if there's a company that I know the director or the ballet master, or I know that oneof my colleagues, one of my teachers here, friend there, because that's the great thing
now in our age, I'm close to 50.
It's my generation who is taking over now.

(01:20:16):
Or was now becoming directors, ballet masters.
So we know people a bit everywhere because they're all retired from dancing about 10 yearsago and they made their way through it and they're getting in positions.
So that helps us to get much easier or well, it's never easy, but you get at least easieran answer.

(01:20:36):
Like if they need people or what, we can send them the material because that's anotherthing.
We prepare their material together, not only the CV and trying to find out where theyshould go.
cover letters to all of these, but we also do have a photo shoot.
So they have to prepare their poses that they want to do jumping or whatever.
And we have a professional photographer who sets up our big studio in a professional photostudio.

(01:21:01):
He takes the pictures and immediately they can choose which ones they like.
And then these, will edit that they get offered as well.
That's in the package of the tuition.
We don't charge them extra for that.
That's like what we give them.
They are ready to go for auditions.
And last but not least to my teachers of the sixth year, sixth, seventh year, because it'salso the pre-professional trainer students.

(01:21:24):
asked them to work in the class for a certain set amount of time that they also have thisshort bar.
This is the bar that has to be 100 % ready to be filmed.
So they go through that class like a few times a week.
And then they'll work on their regular things.
And then the next day they do this again.
And they do this for, let's say like up to three weeks a month.

(01:21:48):
And then we have somebody who comes to film.
We film them with the piano, the pianist.
it can also be the tempo of the music can be adapted.
Also the contemporary piece that they have.
And we make a nice edited video.
So they all have really good material, pictures, CV and the video.
And they can start sending things out.
So that's what we offer them.

(01:22:09):
So then can you talk a little bit, because you guys have only been around for about threeyears, so what has your placement rate been like and where do the typically, where do your
students tend to go?
Do they tend to get company jobs?
they getting like junior second company jobs?
Are they finding, I mean, here in the States, they're very popular, these trainee programsor bridge level.

(01:22:29):
It's a bit of everything.
It also depends what the student is looking for.
Like for example, one of our students, she said that I want to go for a bachelor educationin contemporary dance.
So she got in code arts in Rotterdam, but she also got a one year scholarship forPerrydance in New York.
So for her it was like, where do I go?

(01:22:51):
But she will go to code arts.
told me I have it here a bit in front of me.
We have one of the girls who went to
The junior company Francois Maudvies in Toulouse.
Then we have two boys who went to touring her Stadts Ballet in Germany last year.
So that's from last year.
One of the girls, she came from America.
She went to Pittsburgh Ballet Theater.
I think in the trainee program that she explained me, but I also tell them like, if it's atrainee program that's connected with the company, of course I would go for that because

(01:23:19):
if they are happy with your work, they would like to keep you and offer you the job.
Nowadays, there's a lot of these junior companies that, well, it's just a junior company,but of course it's good to start somewhere.
But there is, they have often the links to go to other companies.
it, but it's still links.
It's not the next step within the same organization.

(01:23:40):
So when we could get somebody in a junior company that's connected with a bigger house, ofcourse, that I always say like, I would choose this.
Can I ask you a question about that?
Are you saying that some of the junior companies in Europe don't necessarily lead to themain company?
Yeah, because there is no main company.

(01:24:00):
ah It's something new.
It only came out here.
I would say I came back to Belgium five years ago.
I think it exists now almost 10 years, like between five and 10 years.
They're starting to pop up everywhere.
It's a junior companies because the explanation they give is there's the main companieswhen you audition, they ask for experience, experienced dancers.

(01:24:26):
If you come out of a school.
You don't have the experience.
You need to get the experience somewhere.
So they say, okay, then we work together with choreographers and like that.
And you, get your experience.
Often those companies, unfortunately, they don't get a state subsidy.
So you got to pay for it.
So you're paying to get experience.
Well, that's in the old days when the most of the companies were also a little bit biggerand maybe the expectations of a young dancer were not as high as they are today.

(01:24:54):
Now at 18, you should be.
ready to be the principal.
But the bigger houses, they should always have a few places available or reserved foryoung talents and let the young talent develop itself because it takes time.
Some dancers already at the age 19, 20, but some dancer, it takes them three, four yearsto grow.

(01:25:15):
And if they're a good corda ballet, why not let them grow?
And maybe some people also, it's not maybe, I'm sure certain people are happy to have acarrier in the corda ballet.
And we have to be happy with that.
Not every dancer, we should think like every dancer want to be the next principal.
Some people are really happy by doing the last line in Swan Lake.

(01:25:37):
And we need to have those.
And I think maybe some directors forget about that.
Not everybody has the same expectations of their own carrier as well.
Well, not everybody can be a star, right?
I it's unfortunately it just, you know, only what 10 % make it as a principal dancer in,within that very, very elite, you know, number, small number of people that actually get

(01:26:01):
jobs.
So as we're kind of wrapping up this conversation, can I ask you what kind of studentactually does well at the kind of training that Mosa offers?
I would say like there's place for anyone who is ready to think a bit out of the box,would have liked to get really good training because we care about the student.
It's not only to try to make them a better dancer, but it's also to make them a good humanbeing.

(01:26:27):
Well, that's what we try to offer.
And if you want to be in an international environment with really good teachers, because Ican be really happy with the team that we've got together here.
All of our teachers had
a long international career.
So we have the links with the professional world, thanks to our careers.
Most of our teach, all of our teachers, not most, have an experience of being a teacheralready elsewhere.

(01:26:51):
So yeah, there's many good reasons to give it a try here.
If you're not a hundred percent convinced, then I would say that they should come totrials in the summer intensive or one of our immersive intensive intensives during the
season.
We have one in autumn and one in early spring.
So then you are in an intensive a week training together with the students, our studentsof your age.

(01:27:17):
So then you really have a bite of or a taste of what it is to be a Mosa student.
I think that's a beautiful place to leave that.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you very much, ladies.
And thank you again, not only for the opportunity to be with you, but what you do for thedance community.
Because I know there must be a lot of parents who feel like unhelpful or they don't getanswers to their questions or they don't dare to ask it because that's another thing.

(01:27:44):
It's also like you come into a world you don't know anything of and you know it'scompetitive.
You don't want to be like the mother who is asking too many questions because maybe thenmy child get treated not the right way.
That's not the case here when people have questions they can always ask, but I canunderstand that the parent would feel like that.
So it's great what you ladies put together because I think a lot of people really wouldget a lot of answers to their questions.

(01:28:10):
Thanks to this podcast, also of the things that I saw written out on your website.
I will, for sure, I will share it again with our students that they should link this totheir studios because there's maybe the next generation of parents who would like to...
have more information before they dive into this wonderful world of ballet, but it'ssometimes also a world with a lot of rules and things that you, well, you can't get any

(01:28:37):
wiser when nobody guides you there.
Right, well thank you.
We really appreciate it.

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MOSA Ballet School: Redefining Dance Training

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