#NoThirds: Full-Time Ballet Training -- The Trade-Offs

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hey everybody, welcome back.
Fran, thanks again for joining us.
My pleasure as always.
Thanks for having me.
So we've got a timely one for this time around.
Kids are at summer right now, they're at summer intensives and they might be thinkingabout what their next steps are.
So we thought it might be nice to try to talk about the pros and cons of going intofull-time training.

(00:23):
Yeah, very timely.
um Summer program season is in full effect.
um Obviously, all these different programs start at sort of different times.
So some of them might be halfway through the program right now.
Some of them might be just getting started.
And some of the teachers and directors of these schools and companies might already beapproaching students about um what they're going to be doing and whether or not they're

(00:49):
interested in them for coming to their year-round program.
post-grad or trainee program, second company, stuff like that.
So yeah, good topic for today.
Cool.
So em let's start with, you know, there's company affiliated schools, then there's theseindependent conservatories like The Rock or Ellison or one of those.
And then there's these ballet boarding schools.

(01:10):
like Walnut Hill, which is affiliated with Boston Ballet or North Carolina School of Arts,the University of North Carolina School of the Arts High School program.
So, you know, what are the pros and cons of going to these places, um you know, for peoplewho might be considering going away?
There are a lot of pros.

(01:33):
There are a few cons too, depending on the size of the program.
I mean, obviously just time, leaving home early and time away from your family, that isvery hard.
It's hard on the parents as much as anything.
A lot of the kids are always like, know, aching to go onto the next thing.
I'm 15, the clock is ticking, you know.

(01:54):
Which is just something we all think when we're 15 and then you're 30 and you're like, ohmy God, I had.
my entire life ahead of me, you know?
And then you're 45 and you're like, I thought I knew what I was doing when I was 30.
So patients out there, 15 year olds who are dying to leave home, it's hard on the parentsto have their babies walk out the door.

(02:18):
Depending on the program you're going to, potentially, you know, less supervision thanobviously you get at home from your loving parents who want nothing but the best for you
and you're kind of now in the hands of people who are just trying to make sure you don'tget into too much trouble.
But there are social pros and cons to that as well, spending that much more time withpeople your own age.

(02:43):
um
helps you get along with people your own age, may not help you mature into adulthood quiteas well, you know what I mean?
You and your friends are just sitting in your dorm rooms, um talking your mess, you knowwhat I mean?
um But from the training aspect, the pros are fairly obvious.

(03:10):
It's like a lot of times it's like being at a summer program.
all year long, know, four or five, six hours a day of hardcore dance training and reallyfocused.
you know, most of these places now, I think have online schooling options fairly squaredaway.

(03:31):
So there are options for that, but that also could be a con if you're academicallyinclined, because maybe there's not as much supervision there as well.
um
but that's what's kind of cool about the ballet boarding schools.
Like those have like, you're at boarding school where you're doing academics and you'redoing ballet all right there.
like, whenever I've talked to parents about this, you know, if your kid wants like a realcollege prep program where they have interaction with the teachers, like those ballet

(03:59):
boarding schools might be an interesting option.
Yeah, I can't speak from too much of an educated standpoint there because I didn't go toone and never really taught at one and I've known some people from them, but I do not have
enough experience to go like, yeah, that's definitely fantastic academics and fantasticdance.
I wouldn't speak on that.

(04:20):
um But I mean, the other company affiliated schools and stuff like that, you're gettinggood training from world-class teachers on the regular.
It's usually lots of hours during the day and places are now also trying to balance thatwith like we've talked about in the past, like seminars on nutrition and mental health and

(04:43):
injury prevention and all of that type of stuff that these schools are trying to do now,which like we've talked about can be good or bad, but mostly is good.
um So yeah, the benefits of that are large and obvious.
Would you argue that it's more a more complete package all housed kind of under one roof?
Like if you're at a local studio, I mean, I know when, when Sam was at a local studio,like he had physical therapy, he had Pilates, he had all of that, but we had to go, like

(05:13):
we had it referred to us, but it wasn't provided.
Like he had to go and it was sort of like putting a big puzzle together of when thosethings could get done versus at a company affiliated school.
It's kind of all right there.
Well, it depends.
It depends on the company and the school, think, obviously, like a mid-sized company thatis still struggling to get enough physical therapy for its dancers.

(05:39):
know, like a lot of these companies, even large ones with large budgets, we'd besurprised, they don't necessarily have their own full-time physical therapist.
This is someone that comes in.
Like when we were in Pennsylvania Ballet,
We were lucky for most of my time there if there was a physical therapist in the buildingfor three hours, three times a week.

(05:59):
And then when we were in the theater, they were there more, but that was like it forrehearsal period.
And there were 15 minute slots.
So 12 slots, three times a week, 36 slots total for a company of 40 dancers.
like often that was it.
And then they would augment it with like, we had a very good massage therapist that wouldcome in and do some other stuff too.

(06:22):
But it was like, when we got to Miami city ballet and saw that they had at that point,when we were there, one full-time physical therapist and a part-time physical therapist
there in the building, that was mind blowing to us.
We had never, I had never had that in my entire career.
Most companies do not have that.
And I think they have one full-time physical, I don't know what they have right now.

(06:44):
I believe they still have one.
full-time physical therapist that's there all day taking care of the dancers.
That's a luxury that most places do not have.
Well, and I think the other problem is that we've heard over and over again is thestudents have to share that physical therapist with the company.
And so, you know, if there are slots available after all the company members have beentaken care of, maybe the students can get it.

(07:11):
So a lot of times we tell people like what you see on paper versus what reality is mightbe different.
Well, and for that, with that, I think those students are lucky to get seen by a companyphysical therapist at all.
So on that note, the fact that you were referred and stuff like that to someone outsideand you could go schedule your thing outside, that ends up being what most of the students

(07:35):
do anyway.
And most of these students are obviously on their parents' health insurance and go totheir parents' doctors and get the referrals through that whole thing.
So they're...
dependent on what their family's insurance is and stuff too.
It's like even I believe at major company affiliated schools, I don't know how much theyhave their own physical therapists there.

(07:58):
And even if they do, I mean, you might know better than me on that, who you with all thefolks you've been talking to.
I mean, I think in some ways, sometimes when a company affiliated school has a lot ofthings that they offer, but on paper they look great, but in actuality, it's a way less.
I think it's one of those things that actually becomes more of a con in terms of decidingbetween do I go company affiliated or not because the reality is like, you're still...

(08:28):
under your parents umbrella and if you're at a non-company affiliated school where you'reliving at home, your parents are managing all of those things.
I like I know for like when Abby had her surgery, the school said they were going tomanage her physical therapy and her reintegration and all of that stuff.
And Abby was 18, so I wasn't allowed to be a part anymore.

(08:52):
And the reality is I think they did kind of a C plus job.
Yeah.
And it's not even through fault of the school necessarily.
It's just they have so many kids to manage.
Abby is not front of mind.
I have two kids to manage.
So Abby and Joshua are always front of mind for me because because I only have two andthey have.

(09:18):
Right.
So, you know, I do think that this is one of those things that I think parents.
sometimes feel like, the school says they're gonna do all of those things, but they don'tnecessarily always take it.
even though it sounds like a huge pro, you can't actually count on it.
And you actually have to do a lot of supplemental finding whatever in order to actuallyfill the gaps oh of things that they say they're gonna provide, which gets you kind of

(09:43):
salty.
I know I was, I was like, well, I pay for these things and they say that they are gonnaprovide and then they don't.
And I get my like righteous hat cap on and I had to step off that horse.
that was very high and I needed to actually like pull it together.
So I do think that this is one of those things that you think it's a pro, but inactuality, I think it's, I don't know.

(10:03):
What do you think?
do not think that it is available to them as much as people want.
Well, definitely is not as much as people want.
For certain, not as much as the students maybe need and probably significantly less thanthey say.
If a company of 40 dancers, let's say we're talking about a $12 million budget and 40dancers and a 36 to 40 week contract.

(10:32):
has one full-time physical therapist, I think students in the school would be lucky tofind five slots a week with that person.
Lucky.
um And if that school has a daytime program of 60 kids in it, I mean, the math is fairlyobvious.
You're gonna be finding your own physical therapy and stuff like that.

(10:55):
Plus, there are certain restrictions and rules that I don't always fully understand,because it varies from state to state too.
um about whether or not they're allowed to share medical information of a minor with us,the teachers and the school and stuff like that.
Like if you're the parents, if you don't want your and the student don't want your medicalinformation shared, then they're not allowed to share it.

(11:22):
So.
Yeah, the physical therapy and stuff like that is, you can consider that at almost all ofthese places to be a non-factor in your decision.
Don't count on
What do you think should be the factors in considering this?

(11:42):
um Quality of instruction from the teachers, like the way the teachers teach and howinvested they are, um what their sort of attitudes towards teaching are.
If you want to make a go of it and want to like be a professional dancer, then have a lookat their alumni, see if you can track down how many professional dancers they really are

(12:06):
producing.
um
That one's a little bit tricky because we've talked on the pod before about sort of themajor schools taking the most talented kids and polishing them at the very end sort of a
thing or end slash very end or I don't know if you're at a if you're a really talenteddancer and you dance at a decent enough school until you're 15 years old and then go to a

(12:29):
major.
I we talked about that on a previous podcast.
Whose alumni is that?
uh
You know, we brought you till you were 15, but they finished the last three years beforeyou got into a company that's arguable.
Um, but you know, we have talked on this podcast about how a lot of professional dancerstend to come from the same five to 10 schools.

(12:57):
Um, which I think also might be one of the questions we are going to kind of get into islike whether or not, uh,
whether or not a name of a school makes a difference.
It's like, well, I mean, yes, it does.
um Certain people will be more inclined to look at a dancer from SAB because they'rebalancing tradition and the other sort of balancing schools, PMB, Miami, especially.

(13:23):
um But then classical ones will look at kids from ABT in San Francisco and Houston andBoston, you know, like so.
um
Yeah, the name of the school you're at does matter somewhat.
Does it override you being the best answer?
No, but it makes them look twice where they might not have looked at all, or it might makethem look at all where they might not have.

(13:49):
um So yeah, mean, the things they should look for.
Yeah, quality of instruction, number of hours.
um If you're really wanting to be into it, you need to find a good balance that...
um
You know, they're like we were talking in our post-grad episode, there are certainprograms that promise they've got all these hours of training and then you sort of show

(14:17):
up.
And this is even in school levels, let alone post-grad, um where you show up and you'retaking an hour, hour and 15 minute class in the morning and then you're doing rehearsals
for whatever show is coming up.
And if you're not one of the stars, you're really just standing there all day and thingslike that.
like, are there...
Is it real training, the type of training that you're looking for?

(14:40):
Are there classes, point classes, partnering classes, contemporary, modern, yoga,gyrotonics, whatever other sort of offerings they have?
um Talk to the other kids that are there in the program.
Again, like we've talked about in the past, hunt them down on social media and reach outand talk to them.
Like, yeah, find out what the actual program is like.

(15:04):
What are the reputations of the teachers amongst the people that are actually there?
They'll give you the real deal.
And though our, this podcast and the podcast that you do is really wonderful for givingthem information.
It's like real on the boots on the ground Intel is hard, hard to overrate, you know?

(15:24):
Shameless plug right here for our reviews, right?
mean, and how important is performance and PAW?
Like, I mean, because there are some of these boarding schools, but they don't have anyboys.
They have incredible instruction.
They check every box, but they maybe have a boy or two for the entire program.

(15:50):
Like,
Jenny, just to clarify, are you talking about full-time training programs?
Yeah, full time training program.
So say you're going to like a boarding school, but they just don't have like a criticalmass of boys where, you know, even a two girls are partnered up with a boy, right?
I mean, they have a few.
saying boarding school, you're also talking about company affiliated schools though, likenot just Walnut Hill and North Carolina School of Arts.

(16:15):
You're talking about like any residential ballet program.
residential ballet program, how much does that matter?
Well, look, some technically residential or not company affiliated schools have a bunch ofboys.
Rock and CPYB, BAE, really good examples.

(16:37):
That they have a bunch of boys and they have programs for boys, but also their training ofthose boys is very good.
now how important, guess, I don't need.
Hang on, sorry, I'm trying to phrase this.
I don't mean to be flippant about it, but how important is it in terms of what?

(17:02):
You know what I mean?
So in terms of...
like completion of your training, because like learning how, if you get into like atraining program and this is the first time except for summer where you've had to partner
consistently, it is very awkward and you are behind.
And it's not that you can't get caught up.

(17:25):
It's just how important is it to have some of those skills?
all the way along or in your final years of training.
Like, and it sounds like it might be a not be a deal breaker, but I do think it is one ofthose things that
I mean, the interesting thing about the partnering question in particular is that therereally are two sides.

(17:51):
And there's two sides to both sides.
So there's the, well, there's the female side where being partnered is awkward and weirdand you have to get used to it.
You don't have the Bible-sized book of things you have to learn as a female.
in order to partner because most of your technique is the same and the number of thingsthat you do differently when partnering is less, right?

(18:16):
It doesn't mean nothing.
It just means the guys back there have to learn a freaking war and peace sized book ofthings to learn how to properly partner in my opinion.
Now, those are the, that's sort of the flip side of one coin and then on either side ofthat coin.

(18:37):
Women that haven't had a lot of experience or partnering are all over the ballet world.
And you can figure it out and pick it up if you really trying or diligent about it.
Or that might just mean that you're not one of the dancers that gets partnered all thetime and there still are lots of jobs for that.
So can you be as successful as you want to be without that?

(18:59):
Probably not.
Can you still have a career and still dance professionally without it?
Yeah.
And the flip side to the guys is, I think a guy that can't partner is completely useless.
But he's still a guy and there still aren't enough.
So he's still going to get a job.
You know, so that's the flip side of the other, come on, you know, like that.

(19:22):
So I think it's very important because I think it's one of the bits.
It's my absolute favorite part of our art form.
It's the thing I love the best is the thing I love teaching the best.
I absolutely love it.
It's a blast.
love teaching it.
It's wonderful and mysterious and actually it's not mysterious.
It's wonderful and you can know exactly what you're doing.

(19:44):
It's a skill just like anything else that needs to be honed and taught properly bysomebody who hopefully knows what they're doing and practiced a lot.
No one is good at it at first.
And I've seen certain guys that have just a natural inclination towards it.
That's obviously they're the way
Some people turn or some people jump, but everyone has to work on their turns and theirjumps.

(20:08):
Some people are naturally flexible, everybody has to stretch.
Some people are naturally inclined towards partnering, but they still have to learn thatif your elbow is flared out, you're not as strong, and if your thumb is closed, then
you're batting her around instead of gripping.
You know, they still need to learn those things.
um So I think it's incredibly important.

(20:29):
whether you get it at these places, I don't know, because I think that might also besomething that's sort of out there in the ether.
I think for a while, how do I phrase this without being an egomaniac?
We might have...
I'm not sure I can.
Lay it on me, Fran, I'll let you know.

(20:50):
but like for a while, I was teaching partnering a lot at Miami and every single one of ourguys was competent in partnering.
I made sure of it.
I would not, I would not have it.
I would not let them settle for being a bad partner.

(21:10):
I insisted on it and I shared my love of it with them and they, I think the vast majorityof them really grew to love it.
There was one particular guy that was like a liability.
was dangerous as a partner when he first got to me and I was really hard on him and I madehim cry a couple of times.

(21:31):
And now he is known by anyone he ever touches instantly as a great partner and requestedat company level all over the place, anywhere he goes, like good, strong, really nice
touch, like good partner, you know, and
So I think Word got around a little bit if you were going to get one of our guys fromMiami.

(21:55):
I wasn't the only one teaching partnering either, just, but like I did it a lot and ourguys could really partner.
And during the summer, it was incredibly gratifying because we would like, you we'd haveour big summer partnering classes with all the kids that came from the other really,
really big named schools.
And in that arena, at least my guys ruled the roost.

(22:19):
They just, I was like, all right, end of class.
Everybody press left and every single one of my guys just grabbed a girl and put themstraight overhead while everyone else, for the most part, struggled.
And I was just like, ah, this power can be yours.
But like, I think if you are the type of program that is producing good, strong men thatcan partner, we're gonna get around about that.

(22:42):
um
I think if you're going to have a full-time programming, you're going to have men in it,you have an outright obligation to teach them to partner properly because it's, in my
opinion, it's our primary function in the art form.
So what about the schools that don't have men?
ah mean, one of the things, that's okay.

(23:07):
ah I mean, there are a lot of schools, even company affiliated schools, smaller ones inparticular, that just don't have a lot of men.
ah What do you do?
How do you teach partnering in a program where there are very few men?
And is that a deal breaker when considering where to go?
Well, you don't need a ton of men to have it be effective.

(23:29):
I know we talked about this a bit too in our pod about the guys.
um Three or four will do to have a good partnering class.
You got to give them some breaks and stuff, but you can also fairly run them into theground with partnering and stuff.
Sam and Abby and I did hour long privates with partnering.

(23:51):
That's a lot of partnering.
just two kids and me for hour.
um So they can do an awful lot.
So it doesn't take a gigantic room full of men in order to have a successful partneringprogram for the men and young women that are there.
um
oh ages?
Like at what age do you think it is absolutely critical that students are starting to getpartnering instruction?

(24:18):
Because like we were talking to some heads of schools who were like, yeah, we get traineescoming in who have had no partnering and then we teach them.
And I was actually really surprised when I heard that.
That's very, very common that they've had none.
uh I started at 12.
um And when I went, it was right after my first, like I did the summer at San Francisco.

(24:41):
um And then we were gonna do Nutcracker with Westside from our, we were at our tiny studioin Visalia, California, and we were gonna do Nutcracker with Westside.
So my mom drove me down there to do the prints, right?
And then my brothers had started too.
So we started going down once a week for class um in LA in Santa Monica.

(25:06):
So I've probably told this story here before, but we'd get up at like 330 in the morningto make it there by a nine o'clock class.
And we'd take nine o'clock to 1030 class.
Then we'd eat something for an hour and a half while the advanced class went.
And then there was partnering with Nader.
Nodder's partnering class was great.
was an intermediate advanced once a week partnering class and we were allowed to take it.

(25:30):
And he was one of those like he would throw you in the pool to teach you to swim.
He gave his class and he gave us some corrections, but mostly he was like, figure it out,you know, and sit there and if you can't do multiple pirouettes, then just do one.
And if you can't do this, then just do that.
But he did not sit there and hold our hand.

(25:51):
He was like, get to it.
get to work.
um And we tried to figure it out and the girls that we were dancing with tried to help us.
on that note too, like Yvonne, the woman who ran the studio, did not want me lifting atall.
At all.
Until I was at...

(26:11):
Yeah, she said I think until I was 14 or something she wanted me to wait.
And as soon as she left the room, Nodder had me doing overhead presses.
My first overhead press, was 12 years old, solo, on my own, she was 16.
She legitimately weighed more than I did and I pressed her over my head from a PKarabesque at 12 because Nader wanted me to do it.

(26:36):
And he helped me with the first one and then he helped me put her down and then he fakehelped me with the second one.
And that was it.
So for me, have a, no, let's get to it.
Like, first of all,
the what people listening are going to be worried about are injuries, right?

(26:57):
Which if you're properly guided and properly taught, I'm a little more hands on and teachthe details a little bit more than we're taught to me.
But Nader did help me with that first press.
And I do that all the time.
I'll help guide the hand placement, the elbow placement, the plie using your legs, how toengage your back muscles, things like that to keep yourself relatively guarded.

(27:18):
But then you got to kind of go and do it and
Injuries are a constant in our art form period.
It can happen at any time for good reasons or no reason at all.
So avoiding injury can't be the primary concern.
Learning the step properly should be the primary concern and hopefully that mostly helpsyou avoid injuries.

(27:42):
But also I don't think we're as fragile as people like to make us out sometimes, you know,like let's get it.
Let's try and figure out.
How do you stabilize your shoulder joint?
If you never get something over your head that's a little heavy, you never figure it out.
So it's, and there's certain things with it too, with partnering where it's a little bitlike riding a bike.

(28:05):
I can still do an overhead press at 45 and I haven't been to the gym in years.
Actually today I went to the gym for the first time in about two years.
When I got myself a gym membership and I was like, I'm so sorry y'all.
But like,
I can still do an overhead press because I will never forget that feeling.

(28:26):
I don't know how long I'm going able to keep that up until I'm like 65 or something, butlike it's a feeling and a way of moving and a way of feeling the ballerina's weight that
like just never leaves you.
So I think they should learn it early.
think they should.
It's hard for me to say there's like, because I also believe in weight training relativelyearly for young men.

(28:48):
So like,
And those should go together so that you're strong and sort of lifting up big weights inyour muscles, ligaments, bones, even though they're still growing, like are still kind of
dealing with resistance training um at a relatively early age.
um So yeah, I think they should do it.
But the fact that grown men trainees, 1920 coming into a program, having no experience ofpartnering way more common than it should.

(29:19):
Do you think that, do you think it should be a deal breaker when they're looking atfull-time training programs if there's no partnering available?
If you're a guy, then I would find a program where there's partnering.
But also, if you're a guy, you're going to go somewhere and there will be partnering.
Because you're a guy and you're going to like, Yeah.
you're not gonna be wanting to go places where you're the only guy either.

(29:42):
I mean, we talked to one person where he was saying like his son loved being the only guy,but I mean, just as the parent of a male dancer, like that, you don't do that.
You try to find the places with other guys.
Yeah, I, again, hard for me to say, like, my two brothers were with me everywhere I went.
And thank God for that.
We were never, I was like, my first year I was the only guy.

(30:05):
And like, it was kind of cool, because that was a novelty, you know, and all the girlsloved me and stuff.
It was like the only time I'd ever been popular my whole life.
But having my brothers there, that was way cooler.
Way, way, way cooler.
We could always, we could push each other.
could, we could.
Relying on each other if things were hard or something or you know your family my mom wasalways there mom was always there you know but We could push each other if one of us got

(30:31):
something before the other one He was king for a day or a week until the other two got thething like I remember the day I believe it was Michael was the first one to get the double
back rebel Todd like first off Because we were just learning they'd be just saw him do iton the video So we were in there trying to figure it out Mike got it first man.
He ruled the roost for like two weeks until

(30:51):
figured it out, you know?
So this is something interesting that you bring up about being pushed.
And Jenny and I were talking about this before we came on here about, you know, when kidsgo to full-time training, they are surrounded by people who are really strong, really good
dancers.
And, you know, how much do you see that being a benefit to students being in class with abunch of kids that are all really good and really motivated?

(31:15):
It's absolutely huge, necessary, I would say.
Yeah, I mean, my brothers were both really good.
they might not have been as much, I was competitive about things.

(31:37):
I wanted to be the best dancer everywhere I went.
um And that didn't mean I wanted to be.
better than my brothers exactly.
was just like I wanted to be, I don't know, I wanted to be the best.
didn't really, but I was also, loved them and was very happy for them when they gotsomething.
So wasn't like it was, there was no jealousy that I felt towards my brothers.

(31:59):
Maybe they felt that coming from me, I don't know.
Never asked.
But I didn't feel jealousy of either one of my brothers, but they pushed me for sure.
Like Michael had an absolutely massive jump.
Massive.
Like I was known for my jump in my career and Michael jumped significantly higher than Idid.

(32:20):
Straight vertical.
like, and Andy also had a massive jump.
Andy was like, had this really natural turnout and this natural ease.
Like Andy could mark something that the rest of us struggled to do.
I mean, I don't know.
I think both of my brothers were massively more talented than I was.
So like I was chasing these aspects on either one of them.

(32:43):
at any given point, even though technically I think most of the time I was sort of aheadwhen we were young because I had more, I was the first one to start, right?
I started a year before Andy was two years older.
So I was a little more physically mature and a year ahead in training.
And Michael started a year after that.
So he was two years older than me and two years behind in the training.

(33:07):
So, but Michael just was relentless.
about trying to catch Andy and I because we were slightly ahead in the progress of ourtraining just from having more time.
And he did, he caught us, you know, I'm like, so I think having someone there and thenwhen we went to some of our programs, oh my God, all of that was ramped up.

(33:33):
I loved being in the room with someone who was better than me, or at least that.
could be seen as better than me, or I thought for half a second, I would get reallycompetitive.
like, if I was like, know, when there was a summer program when we were all placed inlevel five, and then there was level five X and six above us at the rock school, and man,

(33:57):
did I have a chip on my shoulder that year about being in five instead of five X, youknow, or six or whatever it was.
Like, I was just like, really?
Because then we'd have all these big combined men's class.
And I was determined to show everybody who the best male dancer in the school was, stupid.
But also it was just like, was the thing that lit a fire under me.
was like, if someone else did a double tour slightly higher than mine, then the next timeI did, when I tried to jump through the freaking ceiling, if someone did five pirouettes,

(34:28):
I wanted to do six.
If someone had perfect turnout and I didn't, if someone, even down to like, this wasn't mything really as a dancer, but for a little while I was like,
Maybe I'll try and be an extension guy.
You know, because there was like one of those dancers that came along.
They were just really pretty, had this perfect technique.
He had his leg way up to his ear like all the ladies did.

(34:48):
And I was just like, I wonder if I could get that.
It turns out no.
But you know, actually Fran, what you're talking about right now is actually somethingthat I think a lot of parents could really benefit from hearing even, um you know,
applying to their kids summer intensive because the reality is, is that that's how you getbetter, right?

(35:11):
So regardless of the level you're put in, regardless of where you're training, like ifyou're constantly chasing that person who has the best thing,
regardless of what it is in every room you go to, every class you'll get something from.
Every intensive will be super beneficial to you.
I mean, that's the way Abby always looked at it, right?

(35:33):
Every year at San Francisco, there was a new crop of kids who came in and who were thebest wherever they were, right?
And I'll never forget the day she came home and there was this girl and she had flat 180turnout and she used it.
And Abby came home and was just like, that's amazing.
And she was like, I stood behind her every day.
for two months till I really figured out exactly how to use my turnout to the best of myability.

(35:59):
And she's got flat 180 turnout, but she doesn't know how to use it.
But now she does, right?
Because she stood behind that girl.
And I think this is actually something you talked about it.
I know Brad talks about it and I'm talking about it, where that's how our kids chased,regardless of the level they were put in, regardless of where they were training, if they
chased the person who was the best at that thing.

(36:21):
and they weren't so focused on me, oh, I'm too good for this level, it's rather, what canI get out of this class?
Who can I chase?
Who can I get?
Like, I'll show you, you can do that.
Watch, I can do this better, right?
the what's the what was that movie about the racehorse and the jock maybe yeah and the thethe jockey was like no you got to let him get side by side with the other horse and look

(36:48):
the other horse in the eye and then they'll freaking take off I kind of felt like a littlea little bit like that with certainly the other dancers I was like just if
How do I want to put this?
And you know, that also has a, how do I put this, a full program cumulative effect.

(37:14):
Andy's generation at SAB was freaking phenomenal.
There were, across major companies in the United States, 15 or 20 principal dancers thatcame out of the two or three years that Andy was at SAB.
at New York City Ballet and everywhere else.

(37:37):
Phenomenal freaking year.
And I think a couple years after that, they were like, you know what I mean?
Because they're just like, it only took three ultra talented people in the same vicinityto Rising Tide, Rays is All Ships style, bring everybody else.

(37:59):
Everybody else was chasing.
the three or four ultra talented.
And that's kind of hard to say, because actually at that school at that time, I'm thinkingright now, there's like, I can name, I think eight guys that were there that were ultra
talented.
My younger brother that I think was one of the most talented people I've ever seen, it'dbe an argument who was the most talented person in his year.

(38:28):
From what angle are we looking at for the most time?
Like, you would just go and watch a class there.
And I would, I would go up sometimes and they would let me take classes.
Really nice.
Thanks, SAV.
Thanks, Peter Boal.
You know, like, and taking that class as a professional dancer, I'd get wiped out and leftbehind.
And I kind of just stand in the back watching this group of guys.
It's like, what did you do?
Six?
Watch this.

(38:48):
I'll do seven.
It's just like bananas.
Absolutely bananas.
And they all pushed each other.
So partially too, like when we say, does the name of the school matter?
And it's like, is it the name exactly, or is it what that name produces, what the nameimplies?
SAB at that point in time, dude, you could have taken any one of 15 guys in Andy's classand you would have had a principal level dancer within five years.

(39:15):
You know, they were all there.
I don't know what other schools had uh a uh crop like that.
So, and they all, they all go to those biggest schools because the big company affiliatedschools are attached to those major companies where they all want to dance.
And then there's just this pressure buildup right at the bottleneck that just explodesthese massively talented people.

(39:45):
So, I mean, yes, the training is good.
Like watching that class, like,
Peter Bowles Men's class at SAB in say 98-99 was just like he was a brilliant teacher andgave a brilliant class with you know there were 25 kids in the class and 15 of them were

(40:09):
really talented and at least five to eight were next level ultra talented all in one placeand they fed off of Peter and he fed off of them and they fed off of each other
And it just freaking pressure cooker, man.
Phenomenal.
Right?
I mean, I remember when our kids did their first group lesson with you and Lauren.

(40:35):
And I remember at the end, because Abby was in the living room because it was COVID.
And I remember you and Lauren looked at them and were like, wait, you guys aren't the toplevel of San Francisco?
And they're like, no, we're level six.
We're intermediate.
And you were like, you guys are better than, maybe I'll take this part out.
You guys are better than anyone we've got down here in Miami.
You're better than our top level.

(40:55):
Yeah.
And you have two years left at San Francisco.
Holy Moses, the talent level at San Francisco just must be insane.
they're like, everybody's pretty good.
Right.
I mean, they were just like young and chirpy, but, know, I mean, they they didn't know.
But.
was also really talented, really good group of kids.

(41:18):
And SAB, there's these top 10 schools that produce...
Yeah.
yeah.
of them are already professional dancers and they're all 21 or under.
And they all have contracts at great companies.
We were right.

(41:38):
They were really good.
I mean, if we're talking about like being in the room with talent and talent pushing youand all that, and we're not saying this as bragging, right?
I mean, you know, because there are cons to being in that kind of pressure cooker.
Very, very serious cons.
mean, Brett and I have both been very, very vocal about the fact that our both of our kidswere performing coaches because they really struggled with some of the mental aspects of

(42:03):
this.
I mean, you know, I know Abby had conversations with you and Lauren about how to handlethe mental part of this.
Like it's
really, really, really hard to be in that kind of like very, very high level training.
However, the outcomes do matter.
So if uh somebody decides that they want to stay at their local school all the way throughhigh school to graduation and then pursue postgraduate training, are there pathways that

(42:32):
could possibly be shut off for them?
Yeah.
Can you talk about that a little bit?
I mean, how about we say not shut off, but freaking bottlenecked all the more.
Right?
Like, you know, here we go.

(42:54):
It's time.
It's this point in the podcast, right?
It's not meant to be easy.
It's meant to be extraordinary.
It is meant for the best of the best of the best.
This is already a really steep, constantly narrowing pyramid.
Right?
This is not a slope you're trying to climb.
It's a freaking pyramid.

(43:17):
And it's, it's curved, gets steeper and steeper every chance you go.
So
If you choose to stay where you are and not go to a company affiliated school, a majorlike sort of, and you're talented enough to, um sort of a major training institution where

(43:44):
just training is the thing that you're focused on.
You're putting yourself a little behind the curve.
You are.
You had better be the ultra, ultra talented.
Andy went with me when I moved to Philly um at 17.
Andy was 15 and he did one year in the rock school before he went to SAB.

(44:10):
And then he did two years there at SAB before he got into New York City Ballet.
I believe it was two.
um And Andy was...
ultra talented in the school we were at before we went there was a good training academythat was producing some professional dancers at that point.
But again, that point was before second companies and training programs are so prevalent,right?

(44:35):
But as ultra talented a male as Andy was, he still needed a year at the Rock and two yearsat SAB to be ready for New York City Ballet.
And he still hit a couple stumbling blocks in his time.
at City Ballet just like I did in Philly.
So had we chosen...
I ask you a question, Fran, about that?

(44:56):
em What was missing?
Because this is something that Jenny and I have talked a lot about.
You can get excellent training a lot of places, right?
I would argue that Sam's local ballet school that he started at when he was 10, I wouldargue the actual ballet training that he was getting there was comparable to what he would
get at San Francisco.
And so I'm curious what, and it was a little bit different because his teacher used to runthe trainee program at San Francisco Ballet.

(45:23):
the training program!
That is not a fair compromise!
but it is, it's a local school.
And so you have former professional dancers, tons of local schools have formerprofessional dancers, just like Sam's did.
And so like you're saying Westside, Andy wasn't getting everything he needed there.

(45:44):
What was missing?
Because a lot of times like, we're not sure.
He was getting he was getting for the most part what he needed there, except for andMichael and I were there.
So there was competition, but it's still like, we weren't the same type of competition forhim that these other guys were we were family.

(46:05):
Like Westside was really good training.
um And I got Westside training until I got into a company.
So Westside's training was good enough to get you into a company.
um But Andy was 15 and that was too young to be going into a company.
um He wasn't planning on leaving home that early.
And when I got the thing in Philly, it just made sense for him to go with me and do afull-time program.

(46:31):
But that and yeah, like a good example, right?
A school run by a person who used to be run the trainee program at San Francisco.
just as good a training, yeah, but it's not San Francisco.
It's not 15 other guys of Sam's caliber right there with him.

(46:52):
that's what they told us.
that's what interesting that you say that because when they came to us and said, Sam needsto leave, we were like, uh-uh, like he loves it here.
You're like his third grandfather and no way the training here is fantastic.
It's five minutes from home.
It's like a family atmosphere.
Like we love it.
And they basically said like, yeah, we can keep training you, but you need to be withboys.

(47:17):
need to, and you need to be with people who share your goals.
and want what you want.
And it was less like a talent issue as much as like, you just need to be with people whowant what you want.
And you can't get that here.
yeah.
like, dude, dude, male dancers too.
Women do this a little bit, but male dancers are just big dumb apes.

(47:40):
we're just, they're like here at the company too, it's just like half the time.
Like we have this one dancer here, this like one of our leading dancers.
And about a week before the performances, I have to go to him and go, Trev, it'sperformance time.
Stop messing around until the shows are over and then go back to being you.
You cannot get hurt trying your double front revel Todd right now.

(48:03):
We need you to do Swan Lake because guys are just always in the back seeing who can do orafter class seeing had before class half the time.
It's trying to see who can do the most pirouettes and the biggest double cabriole and thebiggest tricks and they're egging each other on and they're helping each other with their
videos and they're just being big dumb apes.

(48:24):
It's I was it was part of like our
DNA is male dancers, you know what I mean?
like, you need that in training and then you actually, and it's funny because like some ofthe other, you know, staff members here at Indy like want Trevor to stop doing that all
the time.
And I'm like, no, that's who he is.
That's how he gets his big double cabrioles that he's gonna use in Siegfried.

(48:48):
He needs to be doing that.
He just also needs to, he's young, so he just needs to be, have a, you know, older guy saylike, all right, put it on the shelf for a little bit, bro.
then go back to being nuts and you know, when the show's over, you know what I mean?
But it's part of being a male dancer and you need other male dancers for that.

(49:09):
think it's really hard to train a complete male dancer without other male dancers around.
Well, that's just never a problem.
I mean, sure, the same, yeah.
you have the problem though of girls who are ahead of the rest of the class or they're theonly one that wants to dance professionally.

(49:30):
Like it feels to me like this isn't just a guy thing.
Like it's for anyone who wants to dance professionally.
They need to be surrounded by people who share their goals.
I 100 % agree with that.
And it is a problem for the ladies.
It's just a little bit easier in the ballet world for the ladies to find their tribe thanthe guys.
Because again, sheer numbers.
But um you're right.

(49:53):
And I've had the conversation in sort of the opposite direction, if you will, with astudent at one point who was saying that she wanted to be a professional ballerina.
And she was a private student.
And I was just like, there was something off about it.
I was like, I don't.
I'm like, I'm not meaning to be a jerk at all, but I'm not sure I believe you.

(50:16):
And we were talking about this because her parents wanted to do a consult.
um And this kid was doing ballet and playing an instrument and in musical theater anddoing a play.
And I think she played a sport.

(50:39):
of some kind and then she was like, I mean, I want a social life.
I want to have time with my friends.
And I went, well, you don't get it.
was like, and you're trying to be a professional ballerina.
like, listen, I don't mean that to be a jerk.
You guys are paying us a lot of money for lessons and stuff.
And I'm just here to tell you, you want me to train her to potentially be a professionalballet dancer.

(51:00):
You guys have said that that's what you're doing, but do you know what your competition isdoing right now?
More ballet.
Their friends are other ballet dancers.
They are not living balanced lives with lots of activities that look good on a collegetranscript.
Those things don't always lie.

(51:20):
And I was like, sorry young lady, you look exhausted.
How much have you slept in the last week?
And she's like, I sleep like four hours a night.
And I'm like, well, then you're going to break.
You're going to have a mental breakdown or physical one or maybe both.
You need you need sleep for crying out loud and you need you know So it's just one ofthose like it was it was a it was a very interesting consult and the parents wrote me like

(51:46):
six months later and they were like because they were very appreciative at the time butlike six months later they were like Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for having that conversation because you actually helped clear things up for herlet alone for us we thought because she said XYZ that
we should be pushing her towards XYZ.

(52:07):
And I was just like, look, I didn't mean to tell her what her dreams were, but we justtalked through maybe what they weren't.
So like.
Yeah, mean, the most talented people at this are working for the most part only on this.

(52:32):
So to...
If your home studio is very good and you are ultra talented and also like it depends onsort of the home school too, because like places like CPYB that are still churning out
professional dancers granted a lot of them end up spending a year or two at a companyaffiliated school.

(52:53):
But you have to be at a really, really good school and that has a full time trainingprogram, a day program probably.
You're probably putting your
academics as number two instead of number one.
um If you're not doing all of that, you're going to have a hard time competing.

(53:14):
Now, we have talked.
me ask you this.
CPYB is like, most people relocate to go to CPYB.
I'm talking like, you know, ballet school XYZ in, I don't know, Mill Valley, California,right?
And someone want, the dancer doesn't want to leave town.

(53:36):
And I know San Francisco is a bad example, because there's a company affiliated schoolhere, but the kid wants to stay at home.
go to ballet school after school, the training's good, but they don't want to give allthat other stuff up.
Like, does that put them at a competitive disadvantage?
Yes, period, it does, sorry, but.

(53:59):
Even if they can get the same number of hours like I looked at the San Francisco BalletSchool schedule before we were going to do this call and I went back and looked at like
the real number of hours that kids were in class and you can get that number of hours at alocal after school program if you're efficient about it and you know you're willing to do
a lot on Saturdays.
But ah and I'm not trying to argue with you.

(54:20):
I just really want to understand like does this like can you do it?
Well, hours isn't the only, obviously not the only consideration, especially consideringAndy was getting that number of hours, um let's say, with us.
Like at Westside, we would go in, we would do an hour and a half class, and then anotherhour class every day, and then maybe some rehearsals.

(54:45):
Oftentimes we would do rehearsals beforehand.
Three times a week we were going in and taking notters, and then the three of us would do,or twice a week, a private lesson with him afterwards.
So we were at Westside, we were essentially getting what a full-time program would do, youknow what I mean?
So like, ours wasn't the thing, and we were competitive with each other, so there was thattoo, but I'm telling you, when he got to SAB, everything was amplified.

(55:08):
And his hours training probably went down on a daily basis at SAB compared to maybe TheRock or maybe even Westside.
But the quality of instruction was very, very good, and the level of his co-dancer wasreally, really high.
So again, all of these things,
play a part.
Can you get really good training from your individual?
Like are there really good teachers all over the place?

(55:29):
Yes.
Yeah.
And can you do it?
Yeah.
But the question is, are you at a competitive disadvantage?
Yes, because the people that go to the Olympics don't lead balanced lives.
And the people that end up making a real go of professional ballet

(55:55):
don't end up living the most balanced life.
And there are pros and cons to that.
I mean, like there are plenty of people who want to be haters and think that that's alljust cons, like, we should change that and everything.
You know, they have to be a person first and they have to be like, okay, there's somestuff to that.
But also your two kids were really dedicated.

(56:17):
They did not necessarily live a balanced life.
That doesn't mean it was completely imbalanced or you didn't take them and go, hey, we'rehaving family time.
my dad did with us and my mom did with us, things like that.
But we were ultra dedicated.
That's where we wanted to be all the time.
It was not balanced.
And we were hyper focused and diligent.

(56:39):
And those, your kids are hyper focused and diligent young adults.
So whenever this dance thing runs its course, their default setting will be hyper diligentand focused.
and able to accept and process criticism and all kinds of other skill sets that will thentranslate into another life.

(57:02):
Or while they're dancing professionally right now, a lot of professional dancers end upgoing to school on the side and stuff and doing a lot of studies and things, putting their
overactive brains to other good use.
So there's pathways to take afterwards, but if the goal is to get on stage at aprofessional company, you can't act like...

(57:23):
You are going to be able to outdo the people that are fully focused on that when you'refocused on it so part-time-ish.
Sure, hold on.
Because people are going to listen to this and they're going to think that, oh my gosh, mykid went away to their very first intensive.
Let's say they, you know, and they asked their kid to stay.

(57:45):
And so parents are going to feel like, oh my gosh, I just listened to Fran's episode andthey don't have a balanced life.
I got to go, I got to go, I got to go.
I got to be honest, at 11, Abby was still in the school band.
She was still on the swim team.
She was still...
Like she still asks for all of August off.
And so we would go and she would be a totally normal kid in August and like all of thatstuff.

(58:11):
Right.
So like at what age does this start to matter?
At what age does it make sense to go to one of these more full time schools, whether it bea conservatory or, or a company affiliated, at what point does that make more sense?
Because
I think parents are gonna hear this and be like, my God, everyone's talking about how it'sso competitive and da da da da.

(58:32):
my God, I gotta take this one shot now.
That's a really good question.
And we have this, we talk about this with our mentoring sessions at our virtual school alot because there will be a kid that's 11, 12, 13 telling their parent, I've got to go
now.
And you can afford to be patient.
for a while, to a point, you know what I mean?

(58:55):
And again, if you were one of those people that's lucky, like sort of your kids were, thatstaying at home was at San Francisco Ballet School, right?
Then you're in a really great position to be able to sort of stay home because you're at amajor already, sort of, so to speak, you know what I mean?
I know you guys had some moves and stuff, but basically they still got to stay homethroughout their training at San Francisco Ballet School.

(59:19):
um And like, let's say, you know, Lauren running Kansas City Ballet School's Day Program,those kids got first rate training and most of them were area kids.
Some of them came from other places and chose to move there to be a part of that program.
But also a lot of those kids were Kansas City kids.
And most of these cities across America at this point have at least a small company and anaffiliated school with a day program.

(59:46):
So you can do that for a while.
um And you can do that and go on all the way up through that schools post-grad and traineesecond company and potentially company if you want to Like because we did talk in our in
our post-grad second company episode trainee episode about how Like being at the place youwant to have a trainee ship at is an advantage, right and

(01:00:17):
All places would love the story of someone that came up through their school and is now intheir company.
So that is an advantage if you're in an area where that exists for you.
um If you have to go away.
It's hard to put an exact number on it because like every story is different, every kid isdifferent, every talent level is different, all their training is different and stuff.

(01:00:40):
But Lauren and I tend to park around 15, 16, cause Lauren went away when she was 15, Andywent away when he was 15.
I left when I was 17, but it was right into a company and that's a little late sort ofthese days.

(01:01:00):
But this is also like given the changing or the changed way that the ballet world is wherelike you have to, most of these places you probably want to be in their sort of daytime or
focused program if they have one to be considered for their trainee.
They're after, yeah.

(01:01:22):
also, you know, I mean, our kids, we had the benefit of being in San Francisco, but whenthey were 15, that coincided with them moving into the full-time training program.
And so like, you know, I mean, I would have never had Sam relocate to San Francisco priorto level seven, which is the beginning of the full-time program.
I wouldn't have moved him for an afterschool program.

(01:01:44):
There was no reason for that.
So it's interesting that...
sorry.
no, it's, you know, your point I think though is not necessarily do you go away.
It's at what age do you move into full-time training?
Cause I think that that's the important thing, not like do you get on a plane and go toanother school, but like, when does the focus really ratchet up?

(01:02:06):
When I was 15 and we were still at Betty Downs' Dance Arts in Visalia, California, andYvonne and Rosemary and Nader had told them for the umpteenth time, you know, your boys
can be professionals, but they have to train full time.

(01:02:29):
And my dad sat us down and went, what are y'all doing with this?
Is this the thing?
And we were like, dad, this is the freaking thing.
It has been for a while.
It will never be anything else.
This is it.
I promise you.
And he went, okay, then we'll make it happen.
And the next fall we were down at Westside full time.

(01:02:52):
Bought a new house we couldn't afford.
Bought a new car that we couldn't afford so that we could make that trek.
Put us into debt and...
started him driving himself two and a half hours the wrong way every day to get to workbecause his sons needed to be there.
And it was like, and we knew enough by that point to be like, it's go time now, dad.

(01:03:16):
We can't stay here at DanceArts anymore.
Like DanceArts was wonderful, but I was in, you know, we've been, all three of us were inthe advanced class after six months.
You know, and we still like.
I ask you a question?
Because you guys were going away to summer and that kind of stuff and you guys wereobviously super talented.

(01:03:37):
So why was going to a full-time program not an option for you guys?
Or for you specifically, because you were the oldest.
Why was that not a choice?
was two years older, I remember just a little behind.
Why was that?
We didn't want...
You know what?
It was different.
It was the 90s, man.

(01:03:58):
And West Side had a really good reputation that was producing professional dancers on theregular then.
So like, which is not, how do I say that without being a dick about them now?
Please cut that part.
like.
to say like that you guys also prioritize being together as a family.
And it sounds like that was something that was actually very important to you.

(01:04:21):
And that's okay to say that, right?
And I think parents need to know that you can find alternatives.
think if like your whole family sacrificed for you guys to all go to West side.
However, you guys did get to all sleep under the same roof every night and you had yourSundays together, right?

(01:04:41):
And if that's a big priority for your family, then that is something that you talk about.
Yeah, I mean, it was a priority for us to stay together as a family.
I think that was important.
We tried to not do too much that separated us as the three brothers that were dancing.
Paul could never be a part of that, but there was one summer when Andy got into PMB andgot a scholarship and stuff, and he went, and it was great.

(01:05:09):
It was a wonderful day for him.
But Michael and I, like,
like we got in but we didn't get any kind of scholarship or anything and we couldn'tafford it and it was one of those like we all got accepted full ride and tuition
scholarship and housing scholarship to the rock and that's where Michael and I ended upgoing and Andy went to PMB because we also didn't want to take that away from him but it

(01:05:32):
was weird to have Andy not with us for the summer but then Andy came back from PMB likemaking massive amounts of improvement stuff so yeah I mean part of it was prioritizing
being together as a family
Part of it was not really being able to afford it.
There were precious few places that might have offered us, I mean, maybe I'm wrong aboutthat.

(01:05:56):
I we got scholarships an awful lot, but if it wasn't a full tuition and room and boardscholarship, we couldn't afford it, especially if we were gonna go together.
And we didn't really wanna separate all that much.
You know, we knew that day was coming when we were all going to go in a company and stuffand just spread out like limbs on a tree, you know, so we knew that was coming.

(01:06:21):
we didn't want that to be too early.
Yeah, but I think this is really important for families to hear because I think they feellike they have to do this like really big sacrifice really, really soon.
Right.
And then and there are certain things that you do have to choose.
Right.

(01:06:41):
And there are certain like if you live in a very rural area and you have outgrown all thetraining within the driving area and there really isn't more opportunity for you, you do
have to maybe make some hard choices.
But
Yeah.
Well, and even I'd like to say as the original virtual school, you know, like that, thatthat can plug the gap, but it's, it's meant as a, we, we at, at Vea Virtual Ballet School

(01:07:10):
have moved numerous students into full-time programs on our advice, both that they neededto go to a full-time program and where to go as a full-time program.
And that has for certain taken money out of our pockets as a business.
But it was what was best for the students.
our business is built on sort of always doing what's best for our students, even if it'snot best for us from a business standpoint.

(01:07:37):
So we've encouraged people to get to more full-time training if they weren't getting whatthey needed where they were.
I mean, that's the thing.
I think we've both sort of hit the nail on the head.
You can prioritize certain things.
Can, I just want it to be known, again, can you do it staying at your smaller school?

(01:08:03):
Yes.
But if the question is whether or not it puts you at a competitive disadvantage, I believethe answer is also yes.
I think you said something really interesting that I hadn't really processed um is thatwhile you're doing that, there are a whole bunch of other people that are doing more,
right?

(01:08:23):
That have gone into full-time training, whether it's locally, you know, there are more andmore smaller schools like Westside, you know, has a day program and that may give you what
you need.
And then there's company affiliated schools and conservatories and ballet boardingschools.
And those are
all full-time training programs.

(01:08:44):
And I think what I'm taking away from this is it's not just the hours, it's the wholepackage.
And that if your school has equally talented kids as you are, and they all haveaspirations to dance professionally, and you can get the variety of training, the
partnering and the contemporary and ballet and point and weight training and all of thosethings that...

(01:09:10):
uh
well-rounded dancer needs, sure, but that those schools that can offer that whole completepackage are kind of few and far between when it comes to local afterschool programs.
Is that fair?
yeah, I believe so.
And also look at
Eventually, again, we have to recognize that this is an extraordinary thing for anextraordinary set of circumstances designed to produce extraordinary results for a short

(01:09:44):
time.
We're an Italian sports car.
As good as a car can be briefly.
The human body is like...
Yeah, but they sure are pretty!
We're the Lamborghinis of the art world.
know, like, as good as the human body can be for a relatively short amount of time.
Right?
But like, like, and on that note, most, most people that go about doing extraordinarythings that we really admire will have certain stories like this of a time in their life

(01:10:17):
where they're just like, dude, professional boxers who have been boxing their whole life,when they have a fight coming up, it's time to go to training camp.
Training camp at like...
30 years old when they've been boxing their entire life.
And what is training camp?
It is a place where you go away from your wife and kids and do nothing but eat, sleep,exercise, do boxing, only that intensely for like two months before a fight comes up.

(01:10:43):
And I was like, well, why?
Why do you have to be away from your wife and your kids?
Because they're a freaking distraction.
Because there's chips in the house.
Because the kids...
have goldfish and you will eat a freaking goldfish so it can't be in the house.
is like, you know, so it's like there's like at the highest level of human achievement,you still have to go and focus to get yourself the slightest advantage.

(01:11:07):
And why?
Because the guy you're going to fight is doing that too.
Like, and it's not exactly a fight, but it's you're, you're fighting for very few spots inan extraordinary line of work.
And you want to go, well, I would like to be able to get there part time.
Well, probably that's unreasonable.

(01:11:31):
like probably expecting to outdo the most talented, hardworking young lady in the freakingcountry, dancing six hours a day, and you want to get to the same mountaintop as her,
you're probably going to have to be putting in your six hours a day.
You're probably going to have to stand right behind her with her 180 degree turnout and

(01:11:52):
scratching claw like live in hell to try and get your hundred and seventy nine You know IThat I I know that's I don't mean that to be disheartening and know if you're 11 you don't
need to go now patience young people, you know, but
So let's say someone's 13.

(01:12:16):
They're at a summer.
They're loving it.
They're connecting with the teachers.
It's they're having a grand old time.
They love the kids.
They're having a blast.
They're not returning their parents phone calls or they're texting.
Fine.
I'm busy.
I'll call later because they're just having sure.
Right.

(01:12:37):
All the things right.
And then as parents, you receive an email that says that they are extending you a shortstay or offering them full-time placement.
Hmm.
Do you have to say yes to every offer that comes in the email?
I mean, I could say what I did, right?

(01:12:57):
But we didn't.
And we didn't say yes to everything because...
And Abby's all right.
Um, because...
good.
Look, I think, I think sort of, sort of like our last podcast, I think there are certainthings that you hear about in the ballet world that are somewhat exaggerated.

(01:13:20):
Okay, the blacklisting thing, I think has been massively exaggerated over the years.
think it is, one, I think it's significantly less these days than it used to be.
Why?
because of the availability of information, podcasts like yours, mom's group on Facebook,and crap like that that just, not crap, that's good stuff sometimes.

(01:13:48):
Sometimes it's little not great, but everybody's out there discussing, you know what Imean?
And people have a way to put pressure on these institutions for things that they don'tlike now, for better or worse.
And it really is better and worse sometimes.
the amount of pressure they're able to put on the school.
But for things like, they wanted my daughter to stay when she was 12 and I am not going tolet my daughter go away and live in New York City when she's 12 and now they've

(01:14:14):
blacklisted her, yeah, light a place up for that.
You know, that's your kid and you're allowed to decide when they go where.
Okay, all of the rest of the stuff I've said is true while also maintaining that you, asthe parent, are the best guide for your children.
Do you have to say yes, are they gonna be blacklisted?

(01:14:35):
I don't think that stuff happens that much anymore.
I mean, the one way back 30 years ago that was sort of most famous for that was Sam Fran,back in the day.
But like, that was the rumor when I was 15, 95, freaking 30 years ago.
And now I know that's not the case with Grace.

(01:14:58):
Which is so funny, because when our kids were coming up, was SAB.
SAB was like, everyone thought they had a blacklist.
Yeah, I mean.
here's the funny part.
Like Brett has, Brett has a story, you know, like there are several people that Abby knewand Abby was one of them that, you know, applied every year, every year got in and then

(01:15:22):
never accepted.
And they continued to accept her.
Yeah, I think if they like a dancer, they're gonna like them.
And I also, I've walked students through that conversation too, where you make sure you'rehumble and grateful and say, thank you, I really appreciate it.
It's just not the time for me right now, or as the parent having the conversation, it'sjust not the time for her.

(01:15:44):
don't think in her development.
Our family wants to be together as a family.
We can't afford it.
Whatever the other reasons may be, just give them your reasons and say no respectfully asyou can and make sure you say something at the end being she loved her time there and has
spoken so highly of it.
And we really do hope you would consider her again.

(01:16:06):
But Fran, I would like to point out, don't lie, right?
Because if you say something like, we can't afford it, and then they come back and say,well, we have financial package, a scholarship or whatever, and then you have to backtrack
again.
I think that's where the blacklists come out, right?

(01:16:26):
Because they're like, wait a minute, we just bend over backwards to do all of X, Y, Z,right?
Now, the flip side of that is would that be a blacklist or would that be like, hey, she'sreally talented, we'd love her to stay, we can't afford it.
Well, we'll full scholarship her.
Well, we don't wanna go.
Then you go, okay, well, she was dishonest.
That family was dishonest to us.

(01:16:47):
And it's like, is that a blacklist or is that learning your lesson about a dishonestfamily?
So yes, absolutely, you're 100 % right, Jenny.
We've said that, I think all three of us have said that on this pod various times, honestyis the best policy.
If you just don't want her to go because you love your sweet baby and don't want her to gofor another year as a parent, you're prerogative.

(01:17:10):
Say that.
if the institution, the institution really ought to understand that.
And I think these days, as there is such a push to care about the whole dancer at everymajor establishment across the country, whether, again, whether it's on paper or whether
they do it in reality, they are obligated at least to show face on

(01:17:31):
caring about the whole dancer.
So if you as their parents say, don't think she's ready for this, I don't think it's theright time, I think they're a little obligated to trust you and believe you on that.
You know?
and there are a lot of soft skills that kids actually need to navigate full-time trainingthat I think is really overlooked in a lot of ways.

(01:17:51):
And a lot of parents really feel like, they handle all of this stuff.
They're so mature.
They can do it.
But it's a very different level of maturity that you need to have to handle your ownschooling, plus your meals, plus navigate dorm life, plus navigate all of that stuff with
very little oversight.
The other students is maybe the number one that's overlooked.

(01:18:13):
Maybe, I think it might be a topic for a future podcast, whether it was like, I think wewere maybe gonna discuss sort of bullying in ballet, in ballet schools and stuff like that
at some point.
like, dude, learning to get along with your fellow classmates when you don't just get backin the car and complain to mom and dad who have your back 100 % of the time.

(01:18:37):
You what mean?
You said the wrong thing or made the wrong joke that you thought was funny and no one elsethought it was funny and now she's mean and now she's turning the whole school against me.
you know, like it just boom, drama over nothing, you know, like just happens, right?
And then an argument between two girls sometimes in a place of like, I mean, just gettinginto what could actually be an entire podcast episode, learning to get along with your

(01:19:02):
fellow dancers.
It's a skill.
I talk to my students about it all the time.
You have to learn to get along because life in ballet is difficult and your fellow dancersare your best friends.
m
your reputation.
Like these are people who are gonna move into the ballet world.
And I mean, I remember when you did a thing with Sam when he was like, I don't know, 14 or15, and it still resonates with him.

(01:19:27):
Like you basically said, just don't be a jerk because people remember that you're a jerk.
Don't do it.
No, there's just like, there are just constantly things with like, and now that I'm at,you know, 45 years old, like my generation of dancers is done for.
And if you're still in the ballet world, that means you're probably in some prominentposition of some kind of authority at whatever size organization.

(01:19:58):
And there's...
I don't think I know that much of the ballet world, but even still I could place a call toa lot of people across the industry to say, hey, I've got a question for you.
And they would be inclined to answer my call and help me out because we've known eachother for 30 years, you know?

(01:20:21):
And there are other people that I'm like, I would not be inclined to take that person'scall, even though they...
They danced in the company with me 20 years ago for five years and like, should I let goof that crap?
Probably.
But like, would, you remember these people and on that note, I'm quite certain there are abunch of people out there that would not want a phone call from me.

(01:20:45):
You know?
So yeah, as a, a, as a, a little off topic for today, but like going to a program andlearning to get along with the other people that are there.
and understand that the ballet world is so incredibly small that if you actually do makeit through that bottleneck, right, that bottleneck basically eventually becomes a, what's

(01:21:09):
the word I'm looking for here, a pipe, right?
It goes narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow, then that's it.
That's the people that are in the ballet world forever.
And then like when they retire from dancing, a lot of them leave the art form and aregone.
But those...
people are then sort of basically in the art form forever.

(01:21:31):
And you're gonna know half of them from summer programs at different places.
But don't you all say, I mean, you were saying you think that's a conversation for anothertime, but actually, like that's a real advantage to going to company affiliated schools
and conservatories and residential ballet programs overall is um the network.

(01:21:51):
I mean, I'm not saying go at 12, but like I think about the number of people that Sam isstill in touch with from when he was in level seven and level eight at San Francisco, that
number's pretty high.
Mm-hmm.
And he told me like, he feels like he can walk into a bunch of different ballet companies,not necessarily get hired, but he will know people in all of those companies.

(01:22:12):
And I think that's a byproduct of having been at San Francisco for two years in the upperlevels.
And then, you know, in the post-grad program he was in, because those schools are turningout a lot of people.
And so that becomes your network as you get older.
I mean, we just went to my younger brother's retirement in New York City.

(01:22:34):
It was a phenomenal event.
And I saw a whole huge bunch of people that I haven't seen in years and I'm still reallyfond of.
And they're fond of me and it's really nice to see them.
And I don't want to name drop or anything, but these are fancy important people that like,I know that I'm happy to see and they're happy to see me.
And that is a, you gotta, uh

(01:22:56):
do a real stiff arm to your freaking ego on that one, you know what I mean?
It's like so-and-so just said hi to you.
It's like calm down, buddy, you know what I mean?
We drank beer and played Star Wars Podracer on Nintendo 64 back in the day.
It's not that fancy, you know what I mean?
But like the ballet world is really, really small.

(01:23:19):
So uh a lot of people know each other.
It's not a six degrees, seven degrees of Kevin Bacon type of thing, dude.
It's like two.
Max for everybody in the ballet world know someone that knows someone you know, you know,so yeah
taking class today and there was a guy that walked in who auditioned at PBT this spring.

(01:23:39):
And she was like, hey, what are you doing here?
And he was like, I actually live not too far away, right?
I mean, it's just, the world is just really, really small and there's only so many placesthat people go and take drop in class to warm up and like ramp up for the season and all
of that stuff, right?
I mean,
dude, like, uh Wicked is on tour here in Indy.

(01:24:00):
And there was a woman who's on tour with Wicked that just reached out to Lauren to see ifshe could come and take class with the summer program.
So it's just like Wicked cast member.
It's not me doing my Boston accent.
There's a Wicked cast member here taking class.
And she was just like, you know, was really grateful for her.

(01:24:21):
Lauren letting her take classes.
She was like, you know, if you want me to teach a class or something in return.
So like last this last Saturday, she taught like an hour warm up and then taught a bunchof wicked choreography to the school, the summer program that just like freaking awesome.
And that person and and our people in Indy here, you know, now know each other like boom,great.

(01:24:41):
And a bunch like some of the company dancers came and like learned it.
was a blast.
It was great.
And Lauren, Lauren was just like.
As soon as that was an option, Lauren was like, go, yes, yeah, we got it.
Put it together in 48 hours.
But that's a touring Broadway musical.
It's not even the ballet world, but that's how small our world is.
Okay, this is something I want to talk about.

(01:25:03):
I want to talk about the casualness of ballet because you just mentioned that where it'slike she reached out and then I was like, I'd be happy to do that.
And it was all very casual, right?
Like, I mentioned this.
I mentioned that.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Okay.
This has happened to Abby many times.
She always reads it wrong and she always calls me and I'm always like, kid, they wereliterally asking you whatever.

(01:25:25):
And she's like, no, they weren't.
They were just being nice.
Okay.
So let's.
to know if you had dinner plans.
It's fine.
He wasn't asking me out.
Okay.
Let's do a little rapid fire.
Okay, so you are now in a position where you are in artistic staff, right?

(01:25:47):
So you're teaching at Indy Summer, right?
So let's say there's a dancer in there that you are just like, primo.
Mm-hmm.
Pull that dancer aside.
What does it mean, you say?
So, what are your plans for the fall?
Would you be interested in coming here?
There should be a follow-up question with that, but that...
Now, I will say what there's...

(01:26:08):
For the most part, that's what that means.
What are your plans for the fall?
If they didn't care, they wouldn't ask most times.
Now, that depends.
If the teacher comes to you, if the teacher or director comes to you, seeks you out andasks you what your plans for the fall are.
Now, if you go up to them afterwards...

(01:26:28):
and want to have an awkward five minute conversation when they're trying to walk out thedoor and they nicely ask you what your plans for the fall are, they might just be being
nice.
But if they come to you, in all likelihood, they want to know if you might be interested.
Okay, so what's an appropriate response?
Because a lot of parents, and I had this too, where I was like, do I send an email?

(01:26:51):
Like, how do I follow up with that?
Because it was like a casual conversation, and Abby was always like, I'm going back to SanFrancisco, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, the conversation kind of ended,
right?
But like, if you get that...
chat like is can you follow up and say like hey this teacher pulled my dancer aside askedwhat they were doing like what does that mean they're very interested in coming for the

(01:27:13):
year like how do you phrase that that's not awkward and how you don't feel like a pushycrazy dance
Well, let's do two.
In the moment, like first one let's do in the moment with the student and then we'll docrazy dance mom.
In the moment with the student, tell them what you're doing and then ask why they asked.
why they asked.

(01:27:33):
See, parents, put that on a t-shirt for your kids.
uh
if you were the kid, if I were that kid and they were doing like, well, it did.
I don't remember the exact details of the conversation, but I think at one point I told astory where like I was right before I went to the Rock the year that I got my

(01:27:53):
apprenticeship with Pennsylvania Ballet, Otto Newbert had been watching class at Westsideand he asked basically after class what my plans for the next year were.
And I was like, well, I'm going and where are you going for the summer?
And I was like, I'm going to the rock and I'm hoping maybe I could stay there.
Why do you ask?
I believe I said something like that.

(01:28:14):
Or he was, or either he was director, I was direct and he said, well, maybe I would likeyou to come to PMB, you know, like you're a nice dancer.
We have a good, you know, thing going on up there.
He wasn't terribly specific.
So then when Roy offered me the apprenticeship, I got, I,
wrote back to Otto and said, what exactly were you talking about and is there any kind ofan offer?

(01:28:38):
And as he offered me to come for PD.
So I went with the PA Valley because it was a real job.
But if I were the student, if the teacher approaches you, then I think they create
the obligation to then answer a question in return.

(01:29:00):
If they get to come up to you and say, hey, what are your plans for the fall?
You get to say, currently I'm planning on going back home and training with so-and-so.
Why do you ask?
And they go, well, we think you're a nice dancer and maybe we'd be interested in youcoming here.
Is that something you'd be interested?
If they approach you and start the conversation, then have the conversation and ask thequestions.

(01:29:24):
Because I think then, like them being the teacher or the school or the director or theadult, if you're going to start a conversation, you'd better be able to have the whole
conversation or don't start the freaking conversation.
So that's why I say I think it matters who starts the conversation.
If the teacher seeks you out, then the teacher has an obligation to answer your questions.
Now, if your child is shy and is just blown away by the fact that teacher is talking tothem at all, which happens for sure.

(01:29:53):
and too nervous to have their wits about them, then yeah, you can follow up and see whatthat conversation meant.
Say, so-and-so was very kind to her and asked her what her plans for the fall were.
I just want to check if there was a deeper conversation to be had about an opportunitythere with your school, because we would be interested in that.
If you're not interested, then obviously just let it fall by the wayside.

(01:30:17):
Because no one in the school or the teacher would be.
would have a right to say, I went and asked her what her plans for the fall were and thendidn't follow up at all.
So now she didn't come and now we're pissed.
Like, dude, like, no, you want to, if you want the kit, get the kit and vice versa.
If you want to be at that school, then make your intentions known.
But also most programs at this point have a very clear process for signing up for theyear, declaring your intentions.

(01:30:41):
And a lot of them do a version of they put a signup sheet or have some process in placewhere
If you are interested in staying for the year, this is how you let us know.
And then after that, if we are interested in you, we will let you know.
But those conversations happen all the time.

(01:31:02):
So what does it mean?
What are your plans for the fall?
If they come to you, that's a probing question to see if you'd be interested to come.
99 % of the time.
So a lot of times parents, like I've actually had a couple of parents call me and say,well, they asked my dancer what their plans were.

(01:31:23):
And my dancer told them, I'm going home, blah, blah, blah.
I don't know if I should follow up.
Like, is that inappropriate?
And I always said, look, like, I think there's a lot of parents who think that the schoolsare like much less approachable than they are.
And I always say, just email them.
Just email them.
email him.
All they can say is, there was a misunderstanding.

(01:31:45):
And I know that kind of sucks, but um always reach out if you're not sure.
I think so, yeah.
And also there's, uh that also might be a little bit of, one, okay, let's say, let's saythe school is a little unreachable, little snooty and stuff like that.
All right, that tells you something you wanna know about them.

(01:32:06):
So um is that type of school, the type of school that's gonna have your kid's bestinterest at heart for a year-round program that's really where you wanna send them?
Someone's got the nose in the air about even asking if you're interested in my kid.
That's a relatively large piece of information.
um But I think at this point, those are very few.

(01:32:28):
Now, think there are some really, like, I also want to say, like, we all hear sort ofhorror stories about a bad teacher or someone with not good intentions and people that
punish their students for really bullshit reasons and stuff like that all the time.
But I think they're being sorted out.
I think...

(01:32:48):
unless it's their school, they're kind of being shown the door.
You know, there was a recent one with, don't think I told you who, but I think I told youthe story of a kid where that teacher was really inappropriate.
Basically the main head of the school stepped in and helped her out.
And you know, that main head of the school, he now knows that that other person is aproblem and he's the type of person that does not allow problems to linger.

(01:33:16):
So the other teacher that was a problem to that student that was behaving inappropriately.
One of these days when we talk off camera for this podcast, I'll let you know if I wasright or not.
Cause I would give that person six months now that cut this part, Jenny, now that PeterStark knows about it.

(01:33:40):
that guy won't last.
I think the teachers that are behaving that way, the teachers that don't have theirstudents' best interests, how do I put this?
For the asking if you can follow up, sorry, I'm rambling a little bit, I'm getting alittle tired.
Whether or not you can follow up, if you're meeting with a place or an institution wherethat is met with disdain,

(01:34:06):
I think that's probably not a place you kind of want to go.
And I don't think there are that many places that are treating that kind of question withdisdain anymore.
Like imagine, imagine emailing Lauren.
What kind of response do you think she would get?
If you were completely unqualified, you'd get an email dripping with honey.
You know?
don't think it's the schools.

(01:34:26):
think it's the parents.
I just think there's this belief amongst the parents.
I actually don't think it's the schools that are at fault.
I think there's a lot of like residual fear.
And, you know, I'd like to just dispel that for parents so they don't feel like, my God,if I send an email, they're going to think I'm an idiot and they're never going to want to

(01:34:48):
consider my kid ever again.
And I will be a little understanding of that, especially considering, say, our last podwhen we were talking about how there are plenty of times when parents think they're
entitled to more than they might be entitled to.
asking whether or not they're interested in your kid?
You're entitled to that, especially if they come up and talk to your kid.

(01:35:10):
think also, I think we actually assume that the schools are talking to each other abouteach kid way more.
And because there's like this casualness of just like, hey, what you doing?
Blah, blah, blah, right?
And it's more that it was an opportunistic, like, OK, the kid was free.
They really just had a great class.
They're connected with the kids after a couple of weeks.

(01:35:31):
Let me just like see, you know, dangle a little lure and see what's going on.
There are probably, and you could tell me if I'm wrong.
You're probably not going back and telling the office, hey, I just spoke to blah, blah.
And so if they reach out, I made them an offer.
Or do you?
Well, I'd say not exactly that I made them an offer, but I would say that like as ateacher at a school that was, you know, I could have the ear of my director or anything

(01:35:58):
like that, or especially like, you know, let's say Kansas City, I were teaching um asummer program class and I know the type of, like Lauren and I are gonna like 99 % of the
same dancers.
So if I think a kid's really talented in a class,
I can probably guarantee you that Lauren would think that kid was talented, right, andworth a look.

(01:36:19):
And so Lauren's running the day program and has a reasonable amount of authority alongwith Grace in deciding who comes to that day program.
Would I go up to a kid afterwards that I thought was really nice and go like, just probingfor information, hey, what's your plans for the fall?
And they go, I'm doing this or this or that.
And I go, okay, interesting.

(01:36:39):
I mean, how do you like it here for the summer?
Like, I like it.
It's like, okay, are you interested in coming?
the year?" And they go, well, yeah, it might be.
And I was like, okay, that's, I'll talk to it because anybody that would know me wouldknow I was Lauren's husband.
like, okay, have you told them that yet?
You know, I would do it from that angle.
I've done that plenty of times.
Like, have you told them that you want to come for the year?

(01:37:00):
They go, not yet.
And it's like, go tell them.
I, you know, it's like, do you think they'd like me?
I was like, I, you know, it's not my final call.
But I think you'd have a pretty good shot of coming here for the year if your, if yourdesire is to do that.
But you have to tell them that you're interested.
But again, I'm fairly direct about that.

(01:37:20):
if I decided I was going to talk to someone at all, I would have that completeconversation that came with a qualifier that I can't offer you anything.
But if you're interested, go tell them now.
They might be interested in you.
And I like you, and I think you're a good student and would be invested in the future.
So if you're interested and want to come here, this is my advice.
Go tell them now.
Is it your lunch hour?

(01:37:40):
Walk right down to Lauren.
You know?
So, I mean, yeah.
And I would also then like, if Lauren or Kim or Grace or I were then talking on a lunchhour or something like that, I'd go, I spoke to someone, someone right after class,
they're interested in coming.
Like, really?
Like, yeah.
thanks, good.

(01:38:01):
That type of stuff happens all the time, yeah.
So it could be that, you know, also depends on who comes up to you, right?
Like if you're, I mean, I think it's interesting because like on one hand we're saying youmight come up to a kid and you can't, you're not gonna say like, I would like you to come
to this school and you are admitted if you choose to accept that.

(01:38:23):
ah But there are other conversations with administrators.
where they might come up to a student and say, are your plans for the fall?
And they might say, I'd like you to come here.
I will admit you.
And so like that's where it gets kind of hard because it's the same question being asked,but you also have to think about who's doing the asking.

(01:38:46):
Well, but the idea also is like, I would say, I would always qualify it with the fact thatI didn't have the actual authority to grant them something.
But I'm also not too big of a fool.
So I wouldn't go up to just anybody and have that conversation with them.
This would be somebody that I had an idea we would be interested in.

(01:39:08):
And if I went to Grace and Lauren and went, don't you think what's his name?
What's her name?
What's his name is awesome.
In all likelihood, they were going to go, You know what I mean?
And I was like, well, would we be interested in coming for the year?
Of course we would.
Like, know if you're a qualified staff member of a decent staff, you're not willy nillyrunning up to people that you like that you know everybody else won't like.

(01:39:35):
And you know, so like.
it's, I think it's interesting em that that can be interpreted a different way on the partof the students depending on who's saying it to them, right?
Like if I were 13 years old, I would be like, well, I don't know how much they reallymeant that.
And we've had, the reason I say that is we've had parents say that to us.

(01:39:57):
Like, well, you know, this teacher told her that he, you know, thought she'd be a reallygreat fit for the school, but.
you know, is he really the decision maker or, you know, does he have to go through threedifferent channels for her to even come and do a short stay?
And so I don't think it's a question of like, not having the authority.
It's the parents going, okay, like how real is this?

(01:40:20):
And I don't, I don't think people have a really strong understanding of like, look, if a,a teacher comes up to your kid and says this, it's probably pretty real because they are a
legitimate staff member who is part of a legitimate artistic team.
Right?
Well, and me, if I were to go, like, let's say, how do I want to do this?
Like, so if I were Grace, right, and um I were the head of the school, and for whateverreason, I hadn't had time to get and see every class, let's say that were the case, you as

(01:40:54):
the head of the school should probably make that a priority.
Otherwise, you would darn sure better trust your staff, right?
But if I were the head of the school and Lauren came to me and said, I really like thiskid, we should admit her for the fall.
Done, sold.
Because I trust my staff.
And if I didn't, then that staff and I would have to have take the steps to gain thattrust or remove the staff that I didn't trust and didn't agree with.

(01:41:21):
like, and even at that, like say, Dima in Kansas City.
It's obviously very Russian style training and Lauren was very ballochy.
So they disagreed sometimes on the way to do something and who the most talented kid inthe room might be, know, were the dancers that they liked best.

(01:41:41):
But if Dima went to Lauren and said, I really like this kid, we should take him for thefall, they would get admitted.
Like Lauren would take them.
Like, and grace the same.
Like all of those sort of principal faculty members there at Kansas City Ballet.
had a certain amount of leeway to admit kids.
And it all, in the end, did rest with Grace, obviously, but Grace trusted her people.

(01:42:07):
She knew Lauren, she knew Dima, she knew Kim, she knew that they knew what they weretalking about.
And the rest of us, like, you know, there were plenty of other teachers in the school.
And I can't imagine that if Sean went to Grace and said, I think this kid's great, weshould admit them for the summer, Grace would go,
sorry Sean, but you're a fool.
know, like it just like probably wouldn't happen to me if I were running a school and Ihadn't been able to see that entire school.

(01:42:32):
Like I would probably to be thorough want to go and have a look at the kid.
But in my mind, they'd be admitted because Sean liked them because Dima liked them becausemy staff who I employ to do this and who know their business thought they were worth
coming to this school.

(01:42:52):
Okay, no, that's really helpful.
So um another one that kids sometimes hear is, um have you considered submitting auditionmaterials?
And what does that mean?
Does that mean they want you for the company, for post-grad?
What is it?

(01:43:12):
You would have to ask them.
I mean, from person to person, I suppose that could vary.
If you're in a school, I mean, look.
having done our post-grad second company episode of the podcast.
The likelihood in a summer program that they're asking you to go straight to the company,almost zero, isn't it?

(01:43:37):
Do you know what I mean?
Like, just, if they're asking you to submit audition materials, whatever level you're at,they're asking you to submit for whatever the next step is.
The next smallest, cheapest step.
That is most likely what they mean.
Most likely.
does that mean something different than the what are your plans for the fall?

(01:44:00):
Like if they ask you to submit audition material, is it kind of like, think you might be agood fit rather than like, what are your plans?
We'd really love for you to come here.
Can I buy you a drink?
Would you like to go get coffee?
Are you free for dinner Friday?
That's kind of my thought on it.
These are all probing icebreaker questions to see if you like me, check, yes, no, maybe.

(01:44:25):
know, like, it just, yeah, you know, no, no big deal because exactly.
You, my new cologne desperation, just like it doesn't like, it's just, because if I don'treally ask, then I haven't been rejected.

(01:44:46):
It's so true.
Okay.
a major arts organization with an ego.
It's kind of that.
uh Unless you get those people that are just really directed on us and go, look, we wantyou to come for the fall.
What do you think?

(01:45:07):
When Lauren wanted somebody, she went and asked him.
Flat out.
So.
I I have to be honest, that's what Pittsburgh did to Abby too.
Like she got in trouble.
She got grounded and she had a meeting with the directors and like everybody went ahead ofher.

(01:45:28):
She's like, why am I the last one?
This is so weird.
Like I wasn't even the person who was like the main, I was just there, right?
It wasn't my room, blah, blah, blah.
And then they were like, oh, Abby, don't do that again.
So what are your plans for the fall?
Slap on the wrist.
Oh yeah, was hilarious.
mean, she took her punishment like a champ and she was grounded for a full two, the fulltwo weeks of that program.

(01:45:54):
And she took it like a champ and whatever.
And I just said to her, I was like, don't complain, suck it up, take it.
And then like two days later, Adam comes down and stands at the doorway with
Someone I think Raymond and watched just her class and watched for like five minutes andshe's like it was weird mom They only watched when I went and I was like, uh-huh What do

(01:46:21):
you think that means kid?
And then she was like nothing mom.
That means nothing right and then
we were together I just watched every rehearsal that Lauren was in, whether I was in thatrehearsal or not.
It didn't mean anything.
You know, you just really won't...
dating analogy.

(01:46:42):
the analogy is perfect because I think it's something that we as parents who aren't balletpeople really understand because Brett and I talk about this a lot and I think people
always think that we're that we're exaggerating the casualness in ways that these bigconversations come because they, mean, because you don't want to seem too desperate and

(01:47:05):
you also want to just kind of see where their interest is, right?
And, and
and let's say you're a mid-sized school and you know that kid goes to a major.
Let's say you're...
um
I don't want to use names, but let's say we're a medium-sized school somewhere in themiddle of the country and this is a kid that goes to SAB and they're reasonably talented

(01:47:35):
and 16.
In all likelihood, they are going back to SAB and you know it.
And you're curious to see if there's a chance they might come to your school instead, butyou know for the most part that they're going there.
know, when Lauren joined the company, she technically had a boyfriend.

(01:47:56):
you
Ha ha!
Preserverance, Fran.
Yeah, so like you know, so you know, you know some of these kids are probably not going tocome right But you're curious and you want to ask you want to you want to see because you
like them because they're talented because they could be an asset Because you think itmight be a good place for them because you're trying to collect tuition.

(01:48:18):
Whatever the reasons are You know, like what if you ask that person from SAB?
You know, what are your plans for the fall and you think they're just gonna tell you I'mdefinitely going back to SAB
and they say, you know what, I think it's run its course there, I'm just not the favoriteand I'm kind of planning on moving on, I wanna try my luck somewhere else.
That would be music to your ears.

(01:48:39):
And in the meantime, if you know you've got two spots to offer and once you offer a spot,let's look at it this way, from the school's perspective, let's say you're doing, it's the
top level, it's the last week of the summer program, you want trainees to come, you'vegot.
one spot left and you've got this talented person that you probably think is going to goback to where they came from.

(01:49:03):
But you want to offer them trainee.
But if they don't take it, there's someone else you were also interested in.
Right.
Now you go and offer them trainee and they say I have to think about it.
I have to think about it can probably mean a month.
And they'll ask for an extension three or four times, a lot of them.

(01:49:24):
And in the meantime,
that spot that you needed filled for trainee.
How long then do you wait before you offer it to the other person who it would be theopportunity of a lifetime for them?
Right.
They wanted nothing more than this trainee spot and this person's dragging their feetabout it.

(01:49:45):
And in the meantime, like you wanted one more than the other by, you know, 91 to 90%.
It wasn't like, oh, I love this one and hate that one.
It was just like, you want her slightly more than the other.
So you wanted to give it a try.
And now you've lost four weeks and in the intervening time, that person can no longer comeand be a part of your training program.

(01:50:08):
That type of thing happens all the time.
And maybe if you asked a probing question or two, you could have avoided that month longwait and lost out on the other person that you would have wanted.
you know, asking some probing questions, getting some information before you start makingoffers willy-nilly is probably good.

(01:50:32):
So you're not just handing out offers willy-nilly.
Okay, so as we kind of wrap up this episode, we've talked about a whole bunch of differentstrategies for thinking about full-time training.
um Is there any thoughts you would like to leave parents on as they're trying to makethese really, really hard decisions and coming to some of these crossroads?

(01:50:58):
Hmm.
I mean, how do you know?
Once again, we're at the juncture where...
teacher you can really trust is of vital importance, right?

(01:51:19):
Someone to sort of help guide you like in the, they're talented.
Yeah, they need more work.
No, they can't get it where they are.
Yes, they need to go to a bigger program.
No, that's not the one.
It's really hard to know.
But I will also say like, we, I want to be real about my real thoughts on this podcast.

(01:51:44):
And so
Putting someone, being honest about whether or not it puts you at a competitivedisadvantage is not the same as it can't be done.
Or you don't have time to make a mistake.
As long as you're diligent and working really hard, um you don't have time to waste, butyou have time to work, and you have time to mess up.

(01:52:07):
Especially with one of the pros of the prevalence of pros...
grad programs being that the timeline is extended, you do in fact have time to get it alittle wrong in a place or two.
I've seen that with a few different dancers who have gone to one program, you know,drinking the Kool-Aid and then it turned out to, you know, be an actual Kool-Aid coltan

(01:52:31):
like you've got to go somewhere else, right?
And make a change.
um And that lost them some time, but they picked it back up and they were continuing towork.
So there's not one path.
Um, but.
Even back in my day 30 years ago when the scene was very, very different looking.

(01:52:58):
We had to be full-time training from the time I was 15 for me to be able to have a shot asa fairly talented man to get into a, you know, what at that point was probably considered
a mid to large size company.

(01:53:19):
you know, and Andy needed to be full time for a number of years before he was ready to getinto New York City Ballet.
And these days, the prevalence of exceptional training everywhere you go, um, is, has itspluses and its minuses because

(01:53:44):
Your competition is everywhere and they're all getting really good training and it's notjust at six or seven schools anymore.
It's probably 15 different schools that are legitimately pumping out world-class training.
And do they all funnel into the same five or six majors by the end?

(01:54:06):
Yeah, a lot of times they do.
But if you want to make a real go of
There is going to be a point in your kids training where they really need to focus onthis.
And as long as they're sort of extracurricular activities are along the same lines orhelping with sort of this, you're kind of like, don't, because I don't, I hate that, I

(01:54:32):
hate that that's such a thing because I think well-rounded young people are.
necessary and good and I don't know that training for life and ballet goes hand in handwith making the most well-rounded and healthy adults, you know?
um But ah so like having something else that you like like going to the gym or anotheractivity playing the piano, your studies if you're really academically inclined is sort of

(01:54:58):
a distractor and a release and uh a relaxation or something outside of ballet that you can
dedicate some time to in order to try and.
Keep the crazy of the ballet world at bay.
I would recommend finding something like that if you're an artist or you draw or anythinglike that.

(01:55:22):
But the plain fact is if you are amongst the most talented and physically capable at this,you also have to be amongst the smartest and the hardest working.
and get the most training and get the most hours in and be around other like-minded peoplethat are going to demand more of you even then the teacher.

(01:55:48):
know, sort of something we didn't really necessarily acknowledge in talking earlier aboutsort of the competition of like a major school where there were a lot of different people
in there.
Like we, I wanted the teacher's approval, you know, I did, but I also wanted
My fellow dancers approval, maybe 10 times more than that.

(01:56:11):
I wanted to be respected by the other guys in the room, by the other dancers in the room.
We were in partnering class.
I wanted a line of female dancers waiting to dance with me.
I wanted to be the guy they wanted to dance with the most.
That's hard to replace.

(01:56:34):
I'm sorry that that is the case, but for extraordinary activities.
normal efforts just won't do.
So, helping to guide your children through that, knowing that uh in a healthy way is areally difficult process, but that stance, this is the domain of the extraordinary and it

(01:57:05):
is ultra competitive and you cannot make, you cannot allow anyone else to outwork you andexpect to get the same results that they do.
talented or not.
The most talented people in the world at this are working their freaking butts off andtrying to find ways to work harder.

(01:57:26):
You know?
So, if that's who you're up against, make your decisions based on that.
Fran, another great episode.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
y'all, I really appreciate it.
Nice to see you both.
Take care, no third's nation.

(01:57:48):
uh

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