Racheal Nye On Shaping Ballet’s Next Generation

 

What does it take to raise dancers in today’s ballet world? Racheal Nye, Director of the Yvonne Chouteau School and Studio Company at Oklahoma City Ballet, shares why honesty, adaptability, and mental health are essential in training. We talk about the pressures of audition season, how social media influences young dancers, the role of parents, and why leadership today is about more than just perfect technique.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Rachel, welcome back.
Thank you so much for coming and joining us again.
Thank you for having me again.
have to say guys, I've had so many people come to me and say they really enjoy yourpodcast and the information it gives them.
So I admire so much the work you guys are doing.
So thank you.
thank you.
Thank you.
We appreciate it.
That's really nice.

(00:20):
post-grad.
It is changing at breakneck speed.
Do you want to talk about it a little bit?
Sure.
So I almost feel like things have shifted even a little bit since the last time I was onhere with you guys.
I do know that I do meet with other directors regularly and there's an effort to try tosort of follow these shifts and changes and do what we can to make it feel collaborative.

(00:50):
But there's just challenges around.
I think one of the biggest issues is the
amount of dancers that are, you know, looking into this, into trainee programs or intosecond companies versus the available spots.
I think there's definitely issues around quality of care.
If it exceeds certain numbers in that program, I think the timeline of audition season incollaboration with our parent companies and their timeline.

(01:20):
And if the company is Agma and their timeline.
So some of the things that
I feel my advice has shifted a little bit around those topics.
I think audition season is just a huge one.
We do three months worth of seminar classes about audition season, and I'm just about togo through my notes and update some of the things that were my recommendations in the

(01:45):
past.
You know, you mentioned something about, you know, expectations.
How many dancers are going into postgraduate programs versus the realities of the numbers?
And Jenny and I have talked about this a lot, but, you know, where do you think theresponsibility lies with this?
Because, you know, I know, like when my son went into a second company, I didn't know verymuch.
And I thought, yeah, he'll go into a second company and he'll just get a job becausethat's what everybody does.

(02:11):
But that's not really the reality anymore.
This is a tricky one because I sit on both sides of the fence.
So as the director of our studio company, as well as our school, I'm sort of on both sidesof the tricky transition.
I definitely think it's important.
think whenever something seems difficult, honesty is the way.

(02:37):
So, you know, I've sort of...
tried to figure out the best way to provide transparency and honesty to the schoolparents.
And I had a colleague say, but isn't that going to scare away your business?
And that is a really, I think, a really important thing.
Of course, one of them is if you walk around telling your students that they don't have afuture in ballet or that it's too difficult to have a future in ballet, number one, you're

(03:05):
definitely going to scare people.
Number two, you might discourage some kids that
really, really want it or have a future.
So I think statistics are important for them, I would say, if you can just provide, hey,this is how many companies there are.
These are the amount of openings that we're seeing per year.
This is how many years per average people can expect to stay in a post-grad program.

(03:29):
Those kinds of things that are just hard data and then answer questions.
Because I think that that is, sometimes I think people know, parents know things that
they don't and assuming that has been really eye-opening for me.
Even just in terms of, my kid danced throughout high school, that means that they're gonnabe a ballet dancer.

(03:50):
Okay, hold on, let's go through it.
And I think even just some of the financial aspects of it for parents, just laying thatout for them, hey, here's what you can expect, has been really helpful for them in
calibrating it.
I have a series of parent meetings called, What's Next for My Student After BalletTraining.
And so the first seminar, it's for the parents and the students can come too.

(04:12):
But the first one is just an overview.
And then I dive into trainee programs because I think that's now really the realisticpathway from the school.
It's very rare to move from a school position into a paid position.
I think we can kind of dive into that later, but, it's also the thing I'm most familiarwith.
And so I start with that because I have more institutional knowledge.

(04:33):
Then the second installment is dance and higher education.
And so.
We work on the nuances of audition season, the timing, the calendar is different.
Some of the criteria, the expectations could be different.
We're really blessed to share our state with OU, which has a fantastic dance program.
And we collaborate in lots of ways throughout the year.

(04:56):
So I feel comfortable recommending that pathway to them because we've seen it be reallywonderful for those dancers.
And then the last part of the...
seminar is off the beaten path.
So commercial dance, cruise lines, teaching, stagecraft, any other things that your dancetraining, your ballet training could lead you to.

(05:18):
And I think the last one is the most scary for me because I didn't take those paths, but Irecruit people who did to give us their knowledge and information about that.
Because I think one of the things that is really important
isn't necessarily discouraging dancers from pursuing the pathway of a trainee position,but also giving them an equal footing for other things as well.

(05:42):
Hey, here's all the things that you could pursue and maybe five things we didn't even listhere, and we love you whatever one you pick, and you're important whichever one you pick.
Because I think we talked about it when I was on last time that there was just this...
stigma of if you did not get into a certain company or a list of companies or if youdidn't do it in a certain timeline.

(06:05):
That was the metric of success for ballet.
And I really think it's our job as educators to number one, normalize it and number two,give them the space to see what they like.
I think, you know, with ballet, they're everyone's so interested in fitting whateverthey're supposed to fit in order to be cast or be contracted.

(06:26):
that sometimes there's space for what do you want?
What do you like?
What else do you like besides ballet?
Do you have a voice in this or a voice in that?
And so I do like the off the beaten path part of the seminar, but it is definitely themost uncomfortable for me, for sure.
think it's interesting, you know, because over the years we've seen, and you see itpublicized by some ballet schools, kids who go into musical theater.

(06:52):
And we were told by somebody a while ago, it's a lot easier to teach a dancer to sing thana singer to dance.
And I always kind of wondered why more kids who were in serious ballet training weren'talso considering those things.
And I mean, just personal opinion, dancing on a cruise ship sounds like so much fun.
You
So Rachel, can I ask you, as you're giving these seminars, what do you think parents arereally missing?

(07:17):
Because a lot of parents, I I think there's more information out there than ever, youknow, what we have at Ballet Helpdesk, resources like what you're putting out.
There's a lot more information, the Facebook groups, but it almost sounds like parents arereally, really unprepared for what this post-grad actually entails.
Is that what you're seeing?
think it's a sense of overwhelm and I think it's, I also think there's marketing involvedin the way that places are interacting with parents and students.

(07:45):
So in the same way of my colleague saying, do you think that having a seminar about all ofthese other options that aren't ballet will scare away your student?
Because if they wanted to pursue musical theater, maybe they don't take ballet the lastyear, maybe they'll go there.
And that is a real fear, but I think it.
we have to stay in touch with the purpose of what we're doing is for the student or is itfor the logo on the door?

(08:11):
And in that way, I think when interacting with prospective post-grad level dancers andparents, everyone wants to...
sell their program.
You know, we all want to be proud of our programs.
We want to sell them.
We want them to have prestige and great reputations and success.
It's hard to say to the parent, hey, let me tell you the reality.

(08:34):
So the great things are we have good class sizes, you know, this, the bad things are, hey,I don't have a men's program person right now.
So you're going to get a couple of faculty or I don't know that we all, you know, oursizzle reel or highlight reel goes out.
And then the, the nuance of
what we're trying to improve and grow upon isn't always what we lead with in terms of thatbecause recruitment is part of what we're doing.

(09:01):
And so I think it's that fine line of...
finding out what's important to the parents and to the students and letting them ask, hey,do you have, does the training program take class with the company?
Okay, that's not on our website, but I'm happy to tell you, if it's really important toyou, we do not.
So that if that's something you're really looking for, then I don't know that this programis for you.

(09:22):
But we do have class with the OKCB2 dancers or we have class with this faculty in order toensure small class sizes, but.
that might be something that's important to them.
So I think it's a, how do I say, I tell the students and parents, there's three great waysto research a program.
One, you look at their website.

(09:43):
It's usually the shiny, glossy, beautiful part of the program with the curatedinformation.
We all have it.
We've all curated our info and found our best, you know, pictures, hopefully.
Then you can look at the social media.
Social media is a little more nitty gritty.
You can get a little behind the scenes.
It's not quite as cold as a website information, but it's still curated.

(10:07):
And then the last part of that would be testimonials of people who have participated inthe program, either reaching out directly because you went to a summer intensive years
ago, looking at the reviews that you guys provide, things like that.
So there's going to be three tiers of truth.
And I think.
That has helped parents a little bit of, okay, I still wanna go through these channels,but also I'm gonna look underneath a little bit.

(10:33):
Or have a list of questions that's important to you and send it in before you register.
Hey, these are the things that are important to me.
Do you?
as well-meaning and well-intentioned we are, are almost over researching and not reallyteaching their dancers to trust their gut when they go in and really think about the
program they want to be in and the one that's going to help them grow the most becauseit's a ton of information that's out there but honestly most of the time I know when it

(11:02):
was just when Abby was younger at summer but she always came out and said this is where Iwant to go.
like based on the teaching and based on that kind of stuff and do you think maybe we'relooking for it's almost like college where we're trying to find these like incredibly
perfect fit rather than the fact that it's just a stepping stone and you're trying toextract whatever you need to kind of finish and polish yourself in order to be the most
complete product to get a job yes no

(11:25):
think it's a great point.
I think that like you're saying, anything on paper, I mean, you could research impeccably,but it's still going to be a personal experience that is you plus the organization, right?
It's both of those things together.
I do recommend to my students that I know it's really easy to get stuck on the name of aschool or, you know, we all dream of being at the Royal Ballet when we were young and, you

(11:52):
know, and they're wonderful.
into lots of other places about why you would like that or why you would be a good fit andthen I think the other part of that.
recommendation is the expectation.
think we get hung up a little bit on trying to find the trainee program where we are surewe have a forward pathway into a company.

(12:14):
That seems to be the narrative that I'm getting from people.
I want to go here so I can get into the company.
And I think that is wonderful as a goal.
think it's a wonderful, I think companies share the same goal of recruiting company fromtheir second companies and trainees, but there's a whole messy world out there of
unpredictable things.
The artistic director.
could change while you're in your training year.

(12:35):
You decide you actually don't like it there or you hate the city and you want to be closerto family.
My recommendation is find the place where you feel like you're going to get value out ofthe program and what that program entails.
So if you're really for the training, find the place that has that.
training.
If you want more performing experience, make sure it's got performing experience.

(12:57):
If you feel like you need both, you need more contemporary, that if you're making yourchoices based on what's going to give you the experience that will take you from point A
to point B and detach from the outcome as hard as it sounds, that a forward pathway therewould be a wonderful step, but it's not the be all end all.
I think it helps a little bit because one thing I will say is

(13:19):
Nobody said how tough it was going to be to be on this side of the table because thesekids are not only uprooting their lives, but they make lives here.
They make friends, they make community.
so I think without taking it lightly, I think the expectation is so heavy to think you'regoing to move to a place and you're going to stay there for the rest of your life.

(13:42):
Not to say don't make friends or don't get acclimated or don't make a space your home, butgo where you're going to get good training.
at the end of the day, you feel accomplished when it's, the, if you need to make anothertransition, does that make sense?
I don't know how to.
No, it totally does.
When you're talking to dancers and to parents, because it sounds like you're also talkingto parents quite a bit, what are their expectations?

(14:05):
Like, what are the criteria that they're using to make decisions on where to go forfurther training?
I think sometimes the expectations are to base decisions based on where their dancer wantsto be.
And some of the hard conversations that we've had this year especially is I think we needto find the best in the opportunity the dancer is provided.

(14:28):
So let's take the opportunities provided.
Let's not be mad about what we don't have.
Let's look at what we have and let's see.
Really take a discerning look at each one for your dancer and go through.
I think it's hard for the parents too, to accept that they can't help.
Like I can't help too.

(14:49):
feeling of helplessness is real.
It is so real.
You want to give them every opportunity.
And I think that that's the other part too, is in conjunction with parents and us, wedon't want to break anyone's spirit or discourage them.
And so we need to be all hands on deck during audition season so that we can.

(15:11):
Cushion the, know, hey, I didn't get invited to my dream place or these are the ones Ihave.
This isn't what I was expecting.
And I think honestly, you know, if we're talking about it taking a village, I would lovefor somebody to come up with some kind of training for us, for people over here about, you
know, how can we, how can we better help kids with disappointment?

(15:36):
Because it's not just disappointment about.
one year of their life, in a lot of cases, it's their identity.
They've been dancing since they could walk.
This is what they hang their hat on.
This is what they are.
And then, you know, that's why I've been trying to...
delve into the taboo land of transitioning because I feel like if we talk about it more,know, kids like not me, I'm going to be in a ballet company.

(16:01):
I'm like, okay, I guess I know and and I think commissary.
I mean when I retired from ballet, it was earth shattering and I was lucky because Ialready love teaching, but I felt like I didn't know who I was or what was my worth or you
know, so I understand it's not different when you're young.
It's just pressure, you know, this

(16:22):
challenge.
If I'm hearing you, do you really feel like this post-grad, I don't know, like kind ofstew because there's just it you get in this cycle where you're in it for a year after
year after year that you as an industry like the ballet administration industry really arestruggling to figure out ways to have more honest and real conversations about with the

(16:43):
kids about who's going to make it and who's not and and how to have those conversationsbecause
The reality is there's only there's like 120 jobs a year in the United States, men andwomen, right?
Plus or minus.
Yeah, the pyramid is.
uh Pretty high.
TV.

(17:03):
I well, and then I think it, you know, it comes down to, guess I love to solve problems.
So my friends come to me with only when they want a solution, right?
Because I'm probably going to say, my gosh, but like, have you thought about it this way?
And I think that in this, I'm really trying to solve a problem that needs a collectiveconsciousness, I think.

(17:25):
And so it's who, I feel like everyone's sort of saying, well, that's second companies aretraining programs are bad.
Okay.
Yes.
But we could talk a lot about like if they're if we just didn't have them, there's notraining program starting today.
Where are those people going to dance?
Are they, you know, will they?
And I think that's the
Do you really think the trainees programs are bad?

(17:48):
I think that it depends on the trainee program, honestly.
Like if there is value, if the kids are really getting training, if they are reallygetting performance and coaching and all of that, I can't say that that's a necessarily a
bad thing.
think that's what the narrative is, though.
I think it's a narrative.

(18:08):
I think it's definitely something that I think there's a mistrust.
And I understand that mistrust because I do think it's up to us to, on this side of it, tomake sure that we're giving them, like you said, this is your performance opportunity.
I will say, I think last time I came on, I was talking about...
how I was trying to move us into a tuition free training program.

(18:30):
I'm still there doing it.
But in this process of that, I've found something that's kind of an unexpectedconsequence.
There's a lot of times when things come up and in order for me to advocate for that groupof people, I can say, are clients.
They pay us.
They need X, Y, and Z.
They have to have it.
I demand that they have blah, blah because they pay us.

(18:52):
I'm nervous about what would happen if they weren't paying us.
Could I advocate for them in the same way if they weren't a client?
Those are the kind of things.
And I think that's what it's messy guys.
And I think that's like, no one wants to put their messy, but I think that's how we'regoing to change it.
Or that's how we're going to help it is some of these things that are hard to talk about.
And you know, the other side of that, I feel like there's, I feel like there's a lot of.

(19:16):
vocalness towards second companies.
And I think that was something, you know, with social media and people having the platformto, to say that, that sometimes I feel really sad because I'm, you know, I'm trying very
hard and I think there's a lot of stuff that people don't see or understand.
And I told you last time I was on, said, when I left as a dancer, I was incredibly bitterand I couldn't wait to get in leadership and stick it to the, stick it to the man.

(19:42):
And it is, I will admit it's much harder than I thought.
It is really difficult to impact change and there's a lot of reasons why ballet companiesare struggling financially everyone is
the NEA grants getting stripped.
Things are, we need to batten down, I think, for the realities of what's going to be thenext, you know what I mean, the next era of this.

(20:05):
don't know, the conversation too, we've never really had is at a school level, which isalso me, is if there's an ethical obligation to trainees or to this group to say, hey,
let's look at the realities of how many jobs there are.
but we have schools popping out a million beautiful dancers that are capable.

(20:27):
Do you see what I'm saying?
Like, where's the line of that?
Where do we say?
I definitely think I can understand if I, it's hard.
It's hard.
Do you know what I mean?
You think parents are really missing.
So this is a perfect opportunity to kind of let parents in and let them know what it'slike on the other side of the desk.
What is it actually like to try to navigate this post-grad?

(20:49):
are straddling school and company and you're trying to build dancers to move to that nextlevel.
What are parents really not understanding about what it's like to sit in your chair everyday?
definitely think that people would like us to have more paid dancers.
I think they would like for us to have unlimited positions, but you know, the reality ofthat is we cannot continue to add paid positions.

(21:14):
We can't continue to add second company positions.
know, we can't, unless we let go of full paid dancers every year when they turn 29 or likethis would be a wild concept.
And, and so I think.
One thing to understand is it is really hard to continue to generate space in a company nomatter what, and that it is hard for companies to stay financially sustainable in general.

(21:45):
And none of that is a personal thing or determines the worth of someone that's auditioningfor a trainee program.
It just is, it's a...
difficult business model, I think is the part.
And I do think sometimes that dancers, it's easy to take things very personally becausethe audition season is incredibly personal.

(22:06):
I don't know if I could try to empower parents to there's good training, there's goodchoices, there's support from the parents.
And then there's also luck.
And then there's also being in the right place at the right time.
Then there's also
the right person that adjudicated their audition and the right person that was missing,that they're looking to replace, that doesn't have anything to do with the worth of the

(22:30):
dancer.
It has to do with the circumstance.
And I know that part's hard to say because we don't have power over it, but it is in theretoo.
Let me ask you this, what do you see as the role, like everything you've said makes a lotof sense, but what do you see as the role of these postgraduate training programs actually

(22:50):
being?
think, you know, like Jenny said, it depends on the program and it definitely depends onthe commitment to the program.
I think you can tell if something's an afterthought or if something is the focus of theprogram.
For us, they get to perform.
We have specific studio company performances where they get commissioned work on them.

(23:14):
We have two theater performances a year, which I hustled for on my low, on my budget,because that's the other part too.
If companies have a small budget, second companies have even smaller budget.
So a lot of it has to be done with a lot of ingenuity and creativity to get them the bestexperience.
But I think performance opportunity is important.

(23:35):
um Getting classical work, getting core ballet training, getting contemporary
work on stage, a lot of partnering performance opportunity, and then they get to do stuffwith the company, which is, I think this is where we get into like, okay, well, are we
just, it free labor or are they getting something from the opportunity?
And again, I think it's how it's curated for them.

(23:56):
We just, I was blessed to get to make a full-length Swan Lake on Oklahoma City Ballet thispast year, which was one of the coolest things I've ever done.
Have dreams in your forties, still have new dreams in your forties.
And it was, it was incredible.
to get to work with both our main company and our second company in this project.
I demanded 24 swans because I wanted to get the studio company on stage and I created arole for them if they weren't a swan.

(24:24):
know, there were, I thought, how great to get to put Swan Lake on your resume.
how great to get to be even a small part, but a lot of them got extensive core experiencethere.
So I don't know if it's taking advantage of their labor or if it's trying to give themthat performance opportunity for us, it's in the forefront.

(24:47):
We just made a brand new Nutcracker and artistic director wanted to make sure there wereroles specific for them so they could get out there and that's...
get a lot of performance because we have the most of nutcracker that we have of anything.
And that's where you get freedom.
That's where you get your footing as an artist.
And those things can't be replaced.

(25:08):
So what is the trainee program and the second company programs offering?
They're offering performance experience that I don't know how to duplicate.
Again, without having a program like that, I think it's a little bit more oversight andmentorship through some of the life skills.
that they'll need to be successful because if you go right into a company I mean uh

(25:31):
sure you have your friends and I'm sure the company manager is great but do you havesomeone making sure that you have your resume filled out that you have your cover you know
that you hey I've noticed that you've taken a you a lot of sick day what's happening thatthere's a level of like you call it a bridge program and it really is because you teach

(25:53):
them how to fish and you know and then they can fish one of the things that I was on mymind is I have hit a point in this organization where
my first year of trainees or graduates from the school are now going into the company nextyear.
And they feel really confident that they're ready, that they have earned the classicalwork, the contemporary work.

(26:15):
They know how to work in a core.
They know how to work for a choreographer.
They know how to interact with each other in a way that's respectful.
They know how to be part of an organization in a way that feels meaningful for them.
Like I'm part of the mission.
And I think these are all
really great successes of the program.
So don't get me wrong.
I think I'm just sensitive sometimes to the criticisms.

(26:36):
You know, what is the saying in a hundred, a roomful of a hundred people, you're going toremember the one person that had a critique.
And I think that that's definitely, you know, what drives us to keep the program improvingand keep ensuring these things for them.
I think
to your point about the whole free labor argument, I mean, I can speak to this because myson did a postgraduate program for two years and was not paid and was free, could be, it

(27:04):
was free labor, but he also didn't pay tuition and got a stipend and had subsidizedhousing.
And I think those students, were they dancing a lot?
Yeah, they were.
Were they exhausted?
Yeah.
But I looked at it as part of the training, right?
Like,
you talk about performance experience, Jenny and I can point to programs where the kids donot come out company ready.

(27:28):
And this is out of postgraduate programs.
And if you're not coming out of a post-grad program company ready, what is the point ofbeing there?
Because if you don't get into that main company, are other companies gonna be interestedin picking you up?
And I don't know.
But I think the whole free labor argument, and this is a personal opinion, is...
If it's considered part of the training program, it's not free labor, it's opportunity.

(27:53):
think that's why it feels hurtful because, you know, when you try so much to, to considerthat, that I'm going to, it goes into my accountability empathy thing of later.
think I, it was hard not to empathize so much that, you know, with the plight of thesecond company life that, or how difficult it is for them in general.

(28:16):
Sometimes it was hard to be like, but you just, we got to do it.
We're choosing it.
Let's do it.
I think one of the hard things too,
about that age group is we're asking them to do a lot, right?
We're asking them to assimilate into a professional environment.
We're asking them to continue to craft their technique and give their 100 % when they'rehere.
And then most of them have, a lot of the dancers here have a full job that starts when theclock hits four o'clock.

(28:43):
They finish our program, they shuffle out and they go work a job, which most of the timeis on their feet.
And a lot of the dancers, it's really challenging.
and they wish that they could devote their whole, you they want to go to the gym.
They want to sit in ice and do fashion release.
And I think that that part is, I definitely feel for that.

(29:06):
But then I think back to my, mean, we didn't have second companies when I was young, but Idefinitely held a different job every, my entire life.
So there was not a moment.
in my dance career and I was a principal dancer where I was not also working a second job.
When I was young and I chose my pathway, I didn't think for one second that ballet wasgoing to be profitable.

(29:30):
I just wanted to do it so bad.
And so I think that's the hard part too is we get into this.
It's not different than it was.
It just, think people have higher expectations about what.
it should be and I think that's great and I totally and completely support the artscontinuing to get support and continuing to be held as I mean my dad was like ballet is

(29:53):
not a real job and I said well I'm gonna do my non-real job for 30 years.
feel bad sometimes telling my dancers, hey, I know that it's hard for you to go and workat Trader Joe's.
There's a Trader Joe's right here.
They have great benefits and great things.
So we love that.
This is my advertisement for the Trader Joe's employment.
I know the entire floor, when you go over there to shop, everyone's doing double tour.

(30:17):
They are all dancers over there.
funny.
actually, can I just put a pause on this for a second and just ask you something?
So do you think part of the problem, and I want to dive into the ballet influencer, wherethat kind of contributes to maybe
misinformation or like partial information but do you think also it kind of comes on theother side because like i've had ongoing conversations with people in ballet

(30:44):
administration and a lot of them really struggle to understand open communication reallyis helpful and i know that you tend to communicate really really honestly with your
dancers but do you think overall as an industry part of the problem with the post-grad andsetting expectations and all of that is not having open honest conversation from the

(31:04):
and really understanding that this could really just be as far as you go.
think there's two parts to this.
Jenny, I think one of the parts is no one wants to deliver that kind of assessment on adancer because who am I?
I have been proven wrong.
You when I was younger as a teacher, I had a parent confront me directly with the studentthere saying, and she was, think, 13 at the time, when are you going to be honest with her

(31:33):
and say that you, that she is not going to be a ballet dancer?
This is getting crazy and we keep spending money.
The parents said that to you?
In front of the kid.
Yes, in front of the child.
We're friends now, so we're good.
That's necessarily what I mean.
Really what I mean is like just an overall kind of arching blanket because everybody wantsto think that their kid is the exception to the rule, right?

(31:57):
You have to you have to have delusion to go into this.
It's too hard.
Otherwise what it's like 0.01 % make it as ballet dancers or something like from who startwhen they were really really little but more what I mean is to really start having these
conversations with the kids in post-grad to be a little bit more upfront of like
You get to have the choice if you want to do two, three, four, but parents need to figureout when they want to call a timeout.

(32:23):
The dancers need to know, maybe if you're on your third or your fourth post-grad andyou're still not getting that company spot, it might be time to pivot and it gets to be
your choice.
It's not like you telling them you don't have the chance of having a career becausethat's, that is not a productive conversation, right?
Right.
I mean, there were some kids that
that our kids went to through training where I think they thought they were being reallyproductive saying you're not gonna have a professional career, but really it was just soul

(32:49):
crushing and those kids just left devastated and it's like so haunts their dreams forever.
And I know they thought they were being helpful.
It just maybe the delivery and all of those things, but I'm seeing this too.
Like Brett and I have been having this conversation a ton, seeing parents who come on andthey're just devastated.
They're just like, but my kid did everything right.
They got into all the right programs.

(33:12):
They, you know, they were at a top 10 school.
They got scholarships to all those summer intensives and they still can't get that companyjob.
I don't know how to have that conversation, which is why we bring people on like you, butI do think that you're right.
We do have to move forward and start figuring out with mental health professionals andother people because sports has kind of figured this out in some ways, right?

(33:36):
And so I think ballet maybe needs to do that as well.
I don't know, Brett, you want to chime in here?
Am
No, mean, I think you're right.
I mean, Rachel, just so you know, I played college sports.
And so there was always an expectation growing up that the odds of making it into acollege sports program, much less playing professionally, were infinitesimally low.

(33:58):
And I have been struck.
I mean, we always laugh that like, you know, the roads are littered with former LittleLeague All-Stars, but nobody's too like scarred by it, right?
Like everybody's like, yeah, I played Little League.
I was an All-Star in sixth grade.
I made the JV team in my high school and that was kind of the end of my baseball career.
And that's normalized, right?
Everybody knows.

(34:18):
And even the NCAA has ads that say the vast majority of college athletes are going to gopro in something else.
But yet in ballet, feels to me like,
there's these inflection points that if you get into a company affiliated school, in theupper levels, okay, they're gonna have a career, or they get into a post-grad program,

(34:41):
okay, they're gonna have a career, but that conversation and that normalization of thefact that this may be the career right now that will not progress beyond this, and Jenny
and I have always talked about post-grad as like minor league baseball, right?
Most people stay in minor league baseball, they don't ever make it to the show.
But that conversation in ballet, I was always struck that that wasn't a conversation thatwas had publicly.

(35:06):
Everyone kind of whispered about it, but there wasn't a lot of public discussion of that.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I think back in my younger time, was, was you either got a job or you didn't.
And then you either were corded ballet your whole life or you moved through.
And there was that other part too, where it was considered in Europe being a corded balletdancer is a very respectable career, but somehow here it's like you didn't really make it

(35:35):
unless you were a principal or unless you were doing solo roles.
And I think now the next
part of this is going to be normalizing that a training program was a career.
Normalizing that your participation in a second company was a career and it was valid andit was important and it was special.
I do think that that's a great point and I think it comes from us.

(35:57):
I it comes from how we create culture around it and calling it a success and being excitedfor it.
And that's kind of why.
wanted to talk a little bit about that.
The trainee stigma of what is it for?
Is it an important part of an organization?
Are you getting things out of it?
it, if they just leave the, if they leave the experience saying, was paid, unpaid labor,then that's not special for them.

(36:21):
It's not special.
It doesn't honor their experience either.
I think maybe it's just a, like everyone can sleep on it and let's see what we, you know,how we can, can create it.
Cause I don't, I don't know that it's going to, that second company model is going away.
I don't know.
There are actually more people are jumping onto it.

(36:41):
even schools are adding trainee level of a school that are not a trainee and they're notaffiliated with a parent company.
So what are your colleagues saying when you have these meetings with them?
As you guys are talking about post-grad, is the conversation with your colleagues?
I will be really honest.
think everyone is incredibly well intentioned.
I think we all see an issue.

(37:02):
I think we all feel slightly like our hands are tied in the spot that we are to.
I think we're trying to figure out models of like, OK, if our audition season runs fromJanuary through end of February, could we figure out a way to release offers and would you
give my student an extension?

(37:23):
They're waiting for us and we're waiting for Agma, you know.
trying to work all of that so kids aren't missing opportunities because I feel becausethere's so much demand for the the programs.
The deadline's turnover is quick and the answers are trying to navigate.
It's incredibly stressful.
A lot of times they're trying to pick between summer intensives with the potential of ayear round attached.

(37:45):
That's stressful.
You know, we're trying to decode, like if the wind blows from the West and you got a 50 %merit, that's the place you go.
But I know that the people at the end of all of these organizations are trying tobrainstorm ways that we can make the situation the best out of the situation that we can.
Is there any effort, and I know this is probably like a pipe dream, but is there anyeffort to standardize this across, like, I'll start with Agma.

(38:12):
Is there any effort on the part of Agma to try to standardize notification times acrossall Agma companies?
Because like, you hear some, notify in February, some you find out in your artisticmeeting in December and it's kind of whispered to you, but it's all over the place.
And then that doesn't line up with the post-grad timeline.

(38:33):
And so, you know, a kid in a second company might have an offer from one ballet company,but what they're really waiting on is the company attached to their post-grad program, but
they're not going to know that for six weeks.
So are you hearing of any effort to do that?
Well, the, so my husband sits on the dance USA call for the art history directors.

(38:56):
And then I'm on the one for school directors.
So I feel like we have a lot of, we have a lot of information between the two and it isvery encouraging.
think they have tried to talk about their timelines or the amount of time dancers have inthe company from receiving the contract to returning the contract.
And then even, I believe there's consideration there about what happens then from secondcompanies.

(39:19):
What do we do?
their timeline.
So the conversations are there.
I think the hard part is it's hard for everyone to manage their own organizationslogistics, let alone say, okay, that works for you.
Let me try.
have a show that weekend and I this, you know, so I think a lot of it is just is efforttoward the standardization, like you're saying, or some kind of even just an awareness of

(39:44):
it.
I think there was a lot of consideration around extensions that
someone is, know, hey, could we,
you know, I know we're all waiting to populate and make a roster and do that, but wouldyou mind?
And everyone was really open to that.
So they seemed, you know, really, it felt like a nice movement toward teamwork in thatway.

(40:04):
But I will say in the meantime, with timelines all over the place, it's really hard forthem not to just take the offer.
I think that the thing that I have seen with dancers, one of the things that is differentis people taking offers and then
breaking them if they, you know, if the other thing happens.
And I have to be honest, like, I don't, I don't blame that too.

(40:30):
I don't love it for me, but you know, I think of course no one, you know, wants to get therun around, but I also think it's so stressful and it's concentrated into eight weeks.
And that's why, I mean, I tried to have as open a conversation as I can.
Hey, I can give you two more, two more weeks.
I actually can't give you two more weeks.
So, but something that is honest with them.

(40:51):
It's the best.
I know, I mean even summer intensives, right?
I mean the fact that you have to let people know before the the audition season is evenover.
I mean, have you guys ever thought about doing a decision day like colleges and just makeit like a, okay, on April 31st, everyone has to have their decisions in and then you can
send out your second rounds in May because part of the problem is you get an offer.

(41:15):
and then you have to let them know before you hear from anyone else.
And it's exciting, but it's really hard.
And then it's a lot of last minute juggling.
I think I'm happy to bring your ideas.
I love ideas.
think we're sort of at the end.
think April is okay.

(41:36):
think people are wanting to secure their rosters earlier in January, February.
And we have our, our national intensive audition.
We hold, we held the first week of January.
My students were getting trainee offers with the deadline of a week.
were, my gosh, we just got back from Christmas.
So I think it's a worthwhile conversation.
I think in the meantime, this is another moment of mentorship and growth for thesedancers.

(42:00):
Okay, here you are.
You're in a pickle.
You have this offer.
It has a five day turnover.
This is your dream place.
You're also waiting for these two places.
Let's figure out how you can communicate well and professionally and put your best footforward.
And then we're going to make our best decisions that we can with the information we have.
Then we're going to go for it.
And I think that is a life skill that they can use for lots of things.

(42:23):
I think it's that part's value.
if nothing else.
So extensions, you mentioned that.
What's your advice on that?
Because I think there's a perception that when people ask for extensions, it mightblacklist them.
Or they might get a reply that says, well, if you can't make a decision right away, sorry,we're going to pull the offer.
But what do you, like, what's your advice on that?

(42:43):
If you ask for an extension and you do it in a way that's professional and respectful andthey might say, I get it, nope, we can't do it.
And that's okay.
But if they say, we retract the offer because you asked for an extension, that might notbe your place.
Do you think it's okay for students to ask for extensions?
I think they absolutely should.

(43:04):
I think it's one of the things where they have agency.
Again, like we're not asking to be considered for a different position in theorganization.
They're just asking if they can hang on to their trainee for period.
And the answer may be no.
Sometimes the answer is just no.
I'm sorry, we have to get our, I have a wait list of people behind you and we're trying tobe considered of them.

(43:26):
And the program is in demand and.
that or they can work with you on it and I think that I think everything if it's done in aprofessional way that is transparent I think people understand.
I would try it.
I would try asking.
I don't think there's any harm in it and if it really brings a negative reaction I don'tknow.

(43:48):
Do you really want to be there anyway?
Okay, so can we talk about another part that I think maybe makes the waters a littlemuddier, which is belly influencers.
They're dance influencers, they're on there, they feel like they're speaking their truths.
Let's be honest, a lot of them don't have prefrontal cortex yet, and there's a lot ofnuance that goes into a lot of what they're talking about, and a lot of that nuance kind

(44:15):
of gets lost in a post.
Again, when I was a dancer, didn't have social media like that.
had MySpace.
We didn't have any shenanigans where, you know, I think also a really great thing to beable to amplify someone's message.
But in that comes responsibility.
I love that people can speak their truth.

(44:35):
And, but I think in my spot, I worry a little bit about the outcome for those who aren'tthe person that's giving the message, but the person, people that are easily influenced
and receiving the message because that
that is where, you know, if they're trying to look for trusted information, again, we'resaying website, Instagram, testimonials.

(44:56):
Okay, here's a testimonial.
Let me jump on this.
Or I think that's where it gets a little scary for people like me who are watching thatsaying, okay, I tend to like to consume information that my students consume so that I
know where they're coming from or my second company because I want to know what their...

(45:18):
basing their thoughts on.
So I think I'm a glutton for punishment maybe because I do I do try to stay on top of asmuch as I can about what's going on.
And that's the hard part too, is that certainly someone like me doesn't want to jump inand correct anything.
And I guess I worry a little bit about the young people who really look up to some ofthese people who are considered to be, I mean, you say young people, and I think there's

(45:45):
also some older ballet influencers, coaches, teachers, things like that, that are reallyheld at high esteem and what they say has a lot of gravity.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, I do.
Most of the time in all these conversations it lands somewhere in the middle, right?
The companies, they don't always do everything right.
Schools don't do everything right.
Everyone's well-intentioned.

(46:06):
I don't do everything right.
I'm a parent.
I screw up every day, right?
I try to do my best, but the reality is you're not going to make everybody happy and youcan't always meet everybody's expectations.
So some people are going to leave disgruntled.
That does happen.
And I think to build on what you're saying, Jenny, you know, one other conversation we'veheard is like, there's always the, they shouldn't have to go to summer, to the summer

(46:29):
program to be considered for the postgraduate spot.
I actually think that makes a lot of sense.
Like, I agree with that.
I think, you know, to put all your eggs in one basket is really hard, but there have beensome conversations that we've been involved in where...
our post-grad, like we have this post-graduate directory that shows what the financialpackages are, you know about it.

(46:50):
And we had someone approach us and say, your information's wrong because you're sayingthat the dancers don't have to attend for summer, but we know for a fact that dancers got
letters saying that they did.
And I think that goes back to communication too, which is it's not always the samecommunication for every dancer.
Like if you don't have to go for the summer, it probably means they're totally rock solidon you and they want you for their postgraduate program.

(47:16):
But if a kid is being told, we want you to attend for summer, it really means you're onthe bubble.
And so there's also that nuanced communication where I think families need to understandthat it's a very individual thing and whatever the quote policy is, is there written
policy, but that there's always exceptions.
Thanks
I mean, I think that's where the misinformation things can happen.

(47:41):
And of course, when someone feels really passionately about something too, you know, and Ithink people are drawn naturally to that drama and to that.
And of course, I think like you're saying over and over, people are desperate forinformation, whatever sources it can be.
And I think that's one thing why it's great where you have the surveys that you have, soyou can get lots of information without it

(48:06):
being pointed at someone or you can be at risk of retaliation.
But I think if you're in leadership, you're open for criticism, right?
It's just part of it.
It's like if you're a celebrity, great, you're a celebrity, but people are going to writeabout what you were.
And I think that's something that I'm coming to understand a little bit more is.

(48:27):
You're under a microscope.
Your decisions are under a microscope.
And like you said, no one's perfect.
Everyone, you know, is growing and making mistakes along the way.
And the best thing we can do is just, you know, Hey, admit it, right?
Hey, I made a mistake on that.
Or, but I do think that, that again, the outcome, for example, if someone's reading a postabout a program and how much of it are they taking away as the fact.

(48:55):
How does that affect them or even just, I don't know guys, I would say a dancer enteringinto a program or a trainee position or a company position with mistrust is going to see
what they see.
know what I mean?
I think it's hard.
You can't prove a negative.
And I think that's the part that I wanted to get to is understanding that there's alwaysgoing to be a draw for that like inside scoop, but

(49:24):
But behind it too, there's, like you said, that everyone's the hero of their own story andthere's truth on all of it.
I think this conversation comes in a lot when it comes to the livable wage for dancersconversation.
No one doesn't want livable wages for dancers.
think everyone loves that idea.

(49:44):
I think some of that conversation gets in the weeds a little bit about what.
dancers deserve, which I think they deserve the world.
I think I deserved the world too when I was a dancer.
I felt like I gave my all, I sacrificed my body, I sacrificed my youth to whatever it wasthat we were participating in, but on the other side of it, I will do a little metaphor on

(50:09):
it.
When I was a young person, I...
did not participate at all in any kind of democracy that we live in.
I just let it happen around me.
I assumed we were gonna live in a democracy and I enjoyed the things that suited me and Icomplained about the stuff that I didn't like.
But I didn't really know how it worked and I didn't get very involved in it and I justassume it will always be there.

(50:31):
That's democracy is fragile, right?
Ballet companies are fragile.
Ballet companies are not guaranteed and I think
In the same way, assuming they'll be there tomorrow, complaining about what you don't likeand enjoying what you like is a very small way of functioning in the greater ecosystem.

(50:54):
I think my, in my adult life.
Going back to my metaphor, I know so much about the Constitution now.
I have really researched.
I have studied it.
I have never known more about the inner workings of our government works than I do rightnow today.
And that has helped me become a better citizen.
I know what I can do to impact change.

(51:15):
I know the avenues.
know what can...
try to do and put my efforts there rather than kind of just lamenting that it's, don'tlike this.
And I think that's kind of what I believe about ballet companies is that it's, they arefragile, they're not guaranteed and they're are empowering people to.

(51:36):
understand how the companies work and might help these wonderful creative young minds go,hey, I see a pathway here.
Maybe we could work on this or maybe we could work on that.
But she just say, I think all dancers should make a hundred thousand dollars starting.
Okay.
But where are we getting our, where are we getting our budgetary information?

(51:56):
I think it's, it's tough then because young dancers hear that and think, yeah, why not?
And then we get into economics, it's supply and demand.
Yes, but the demand, that's why high paid jobs are high paid, because they're in demand.
And if we understand how things work, then maybe there is other ways of.

(52:22):
creatively, you working around it.
I love solutions.
So if anyone has any creative ideas on this topic or others, my email is R9 and I willtake all of the crazy ideas and as long as it doesn't tank the company, you know,
financially, I think it's worth a shot.
I think that's the part is, the brainstorming of it all and, and channeling frustration orchanneling not loving the system as it is into

(52:52):
to creative energy of how we can make it better.
I don't know that that's always the point of social media posts, if that makes sense.
Well, and honestly, that's why we have this podcast, right?
To bring people on like you to come on and have these harder conversations, these morenuanced gray area conversations where this is really, really difficult.
I mean, we don't get a lot of clicks on our stuff because it's not, it's not sexy thatway, right?

(53:19):
It's hard, real conversations where you really do have to maybe pull things apart a littlebit.
And I mean, I so appreciate you.
coming on and having these harder conversations, why do you think leaders are so hesitantto come on and have these more gray, difficult conversations and really let people know
all the things you're struggling with, right?

(53:40):
Because the reality is, I think a lot of people just don't know because they're so focusedon getting themselves and their kid out the door every day.
It's hard to, what is it?
always quote Brene Brown.
I love Brene Brown, but she's, you I think there's the still idea that people, thatleaders being vulnerable is leaders being weak.

(54:01):
And I think that that.
is false.
think my vulnerability is my strength to be honest because it's admitting what you know,what you don't know, what you're still trying to figure out, what you strive for, what
you're willing to accept, what you're not.
And I think it's scary to come on here and say, well, I haven't really perfected this, butI'm really working on that.

(54:25):
you know, here's a chance the time when I made a mistake doing that.
And here's what I learned.
And there may be people who go, this woman is nuts.
There.
I so.
think they're going to say this woman's honest.
I uh think Jenny would agree with me as ballet parents, forget the fact that we run thispodcast and website, is there's a perception in the ballet world that people are in

(54:52):
administration and in administrative roles are not honest with students.
And that leads to this culture of fear because what happens is these kids try to read thetea leaves.
because people will hedge or they'll say like, well, you know, they'll give you an answerwhen you know, like it's probably not a hundred percent true, but I just wonder if some

(55:16):
administrators aren't giving families enough credit where if they would just give you thestraight story, people would be okay with that.
It may not be what you want to hear, but at least you know you're getting the truth.
I do think that.
I have found great success with Radical Candor, with the parents here and in our summerintensives as well.
So I encourage, yes, I do encourage people to give it a try sometimes.

(55:40):
But I think I also gravitate towards me families that enjoy that style of leadership too.
You know, they clearly know what they're getting.
They choose it, you know, and the same thing with the studio company, which is part of whyI like working with everyone before they come here.
You know, they know that I'm going to be a straight shooter.
They know that it's going to be, I'm going to say what I think.

(56:03):
And if I didn't say it, you don't have to worry about it.
I have had a conversation every year.
I sit down with the studio company and, and open for feedback on the program, things I cando to improve and things that went well.
What do we keep?
One of the things that they said that they really liked was that one day I had some timeto fill and I was trying to

(56:24):
let them run these potatas that we had been working on because the flat dancers weresitting because we were doing Bayou d'Air and so I needed the flat dancers to do something
so I said okay you're going to dance with her and you're going to dance with her and itwas just sort of it seemed what could have been at random or what could have been
incredibly telling about their future in the company so we ran the potatas and at the endI could see there was a really weird energy in the space and I said before we leave I want

(56:50):
to explain what I just did
so that you don't leave here misunderstanding that in any way.
I said the flat dancers were sitting for a long time and I wanted to have them do the pasde deux so that they could dance and I gave them someone height appropriate.
That's what that was.
And in the meeting with the dancers, they said, you you didn't have to do that, but itsaved us a lot of mental gymnastics when we went home.

(57:13):
And it was easy enough for me to say it didn't take a lot of effort for me to explain it.
I think it's things like that where
I open for feedback, they give me the feedback.
I tell them the things that I can, you know, and I try to be as honest as possible, but Idon't know.
It remains tough in 2025.
It still remains a work in progress.

(57:36):
think that's how we all get better though.
I mean, we're all a work in progress and that's part of, that's part of growing and that.
Think about, I don't know, in my generation, I don't think my parents ever said that theydid something wrong.
They, they never, and I tell my kids all the time, like, I'm super sorry.
I really kind of blew that.
You know, can I try again?

(57:57):
I'm really sorry.
That was, that was bad.
That didn't work out.
Right.
And that's a huge shift.
And so I think like all things.
As new directors come in and they're trying to figure out their own footing and take thegood and leave the bad, you're trying to figure that out.
And it sounds like you're really trying to lead with some empathy and hold yourselfaccountable for your behavior and your choices and really talk to your students.

(58:24):
I mean, is that something that you're trying to lead with and put forward as one of yourmissions?
Well, and I think it's not just how we, how we behave, but model, don't do as I say, do asI do.
And so if I come in with this, think, you like I said, it was our first round of graduatesfrom my school since I've been here into the company.

(58:44):
And one thing that was really, they asked me if they could meet with me and voice thatthey were concerned about the, culture in the, in the second company in their absence,
because they were really trying to be leaders.
asked them to, right?
So I want you to please be a leader in here and help me set the expectations and you know,we're going to create this thing that's really great and important.

(59:07):
And the fact that they cared about the program.
oh
when they weren't in it anymore, I felt so great.
know, of course I said, okay, well, we got to make a tighter ship than I guess orsomething or have more conversations about it.
But the fact that they were really invested in the program long-term because the programhad worked for them or they felt, you know, investment in that I think was really

(59:31):
meaningful for me.
And just the way that they are with the younger dancers and with those coming up and evenwith our school, everyone's very tight knit.
share space together too.
So, but I think it's, that it's not just trying to be a good leader myself, but I want tomake great leaders with the help them to be great too.

(59:51):
think there's only so much I can change.
I'm going to keep trying, but there's only so much that I can do, but the ripple effect ofhow I can inspire a room full of young people to take the baton and keep running is
really, I think when we're going to see the magnitude of it.
talk a little bit more about what you're learning from your dancers as they'vetransitioned into the professional world.

(01:00:13):
I'm super curious to hear about what you're hearing from them.
think part of that was their sudden care about how that leaving the world better than theyfound it.
And then the other part of that is I think being school and second company, it's a very,very long life of...

(01:00:33):
putting all of the hopes and dreams of being happy with a tangible goal.
I'll be happy when I get a paid contract.
And you just put all of your eggs into that basket of being happy when, and I do this too,but seeing that point and going, okay, let's be realistic now.
You've accomplished the thing.

(01:00:54):
And what is there beyond that?
Because it's years and years of I'm not gonna rest and I'm not gonna...
enjoy what I'm doing.
We should enjoy what we're doing every every day because that's the goal is going to comeand go I think and it's really about I think one thing that I've noticed is that

(01:01:15):
successful dancers aren't necessarily happy dancers and I would say that
The next part of what I'm going to try to do this year is not just prepare them for thecompany contract, but then what happens after the company contract too is, how to exist
and be, feel worthwhile without that goal.

(01:01:35):
Because then the next goal will be, well, then I want to be a soloist and then I want tobe a principal.
then, and then your career is done and then it's over and you have performed all of thethings and, always looked past where you are for the next.
the next goal.
And I say this from a personal sense of, know, I probably should look in the mirror about,what I'm, what I'm explaining.

(01:01:57):
But I do think, you know, of course being ambitious and goal oriented is really important,but I think they're prepared.
Their skillset is prepared, but it's about then also
finding peace and enjoying the accomplishment that you worked your life for.
And I think it's also.

(01:02:18):
keeping a hold of that environment that we worked hard to build in the second companyabout being an example for those that are younger than you.
And we have long talks.
We're not going to talk negatively in this building.
You can talk in your car, you can talk in your apartment, but we are not going to talknegatively about each other or any of the stuff in here.
It's not adding.
And I think the change of that has helped make the room positive and then the workpositive.

(01:02:43):
So if there's no one holding you to that.
accountability, you know, it's that it's when there's not someone there making sure thatyour best self then then what happens.
And I feel optimistic about the group that's going up, especially after they showed somuch care for the incoming trainees.
But I really do think that that's an important conversation, too.

(01:03:05):
We talked a lot about what happens if you don't make it, if you don't make that benchmark.
But what happens if you do is also really important.
Well, and what happens if you do and you get everything you thought you wanted and thenyou realize it wasn't what you wanted?
I mean, we've talked to a couple of people on our podcast who said, I got to aprofessional career and realized I didn't want to do that.

(01:03:28):
And then what do you do?
You you get, think you've been working toward a company contract your whole life and thenyou get a company contract and you realize it's not what I want.
And think that again, I think that comes down to like early exposure to all the pathways.
Cause you'd be like, Oh, that one time I actually learned about wardrobe and or, know,any, anything that I feel the more well rounded they can be.

(01:03:52):
don't think diversifying interest or dreams is in any way.
I just don't feel that.
Like if you only think and breathe and sleep ballet, of course we will, of course we will,or we wouldn't be hanging on this long.
But I tell my students in the summer,
Please do a cartwheel and go swimming and go on a nature hike, grow a plant, play aguitar, sing, do something that like helps you find your voice in a different way.

(01:04:20):
You can say the same thing with a different method because yeah, I mean, there's just,there's so much uncertainty.
around it.
One of the unexpected outcomes of we have the project, I think I talked about it last timea little bit, is our bridge choreography initiative where they do choreography for each
other, but they also learn the other parts of stagecraft and production.

(01:04:43):
They learn development.
And a lot of my dancers said, what is development, Ms.
Nye?
It's really important to you.
And so they attended board meetings and wardrobe was given a sewing tutorial, design
and all of these things that I think are so important to just inspire them.
Maybe I put it in the back of my mind and I pull it out later.

(01:05:06):
But since the project start, I've had actually three dancers transition from the secondcompany into the part that they learned at the BCI.
So, hey.
And so I'm trying to find other ways of giving them this experience and encouraging them.
I think again, it's creativity, it's problem solving, it's think outside the box and wecan do our best for these dancers.

(01:05:36):
I think that's a beautiful place to leave it.
Rachel, thank you so much for joining us again.
is, it's always a delight to have you on the pod and please come back anytime because youare one of our favorite guests.
Thank you guys, it's great to see you.
Good to see you too.