Sarah & Seth Orza: Ballet Careers and Creating Orza Ballet Shoes

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Sarah and Seth, thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you for having us.
Sarah, we talked to you a couple of months ago and you said something really interestingthat you, the two of you have very different training stories.
Can you guys talk about that a little bit?
Yeah, absolutely.
Do you want me to start?
Sure.
Okay.
I started at a really small ballet school in New Hampshire.

(00:23):
You know, you're pretty typical, like recital school offered all the different things,jazz, et cetera.
I was always really into ballet.
my, parents took me to like, to see a show of Cinderella really early on.
had some books and I was just really drawn to it.
We relocated to Massachusetts and I.
Again, another just really small school, the teacher, it was RDA syllabus, you know, ithad some structure.

(00:52):
You know, she was pretty keen on having a real model of this is the school.
And then there was like a theater company.
And from the get-go, teachers were, I was always put in levels ahead of my age group.
So I was always with kids a little older.
So was from the get go kind of like big fish, small pond, right?

(01:12):
And so my parents moved me around through a few different studios in Western Mass just totry to find the right fit.
Sometimes I was moved to challenge me more in terms of ballet and dance itself.
I was also moved out of what my parents were viewed as a unhealthy environment.
And a lot of this was just treading water until I could get to a bigger school, right?

(01:37):
But really I was...
Until I was 16, the bulk of my training came from really small schools.
And Seth will tell you on the flip side, when he came from San Fran, he didn't realizethat everybody didn't just go to like elite institutions around the country, right?
Yeah.
Well, my training started at a place called Dancer Stage and it was actually an adult anddance company.

(02:00):
Dancers would come and take class.
I started, both my parents were dancers, one off, and then all my siblings as well, fiveof them, three sisters and two brothers.
We started there at Dancer Stage.
So we were seeing, I mean, the really great.
Yeah, even bigger.
Where was it?
It was on Brady street and market off of my.

(02:22):
Brady.
No, but everyone from San Francisco about it used to come there.
I'm at all the touring groups.
mean, ABT, you had the Russians come in, you had ABT and then Smuin come in as well.
I mean, it was just such a great place to start.
Cause this is what I was watching.
Like I was a four or five year old.

(02:43):
I started when I was four and just watching them and I wish I could go back and.
remember what I was seeing, because it would have been so cool.
Yeah, it was a great place to be.
mean, was Yehuda Mayor was my godfather, but then also my first teacher and Bob's son,Augusta.
I mean, we had so many great teachers there.

(03:04):
And then from that point, we went to with Demara Bennett at City Ballet and was there fora little bit and then went to Marin Ballet for a bit as well.
And then went to San Francisco Ballet when I was about 10.
And then from there, was just hardcore training.
And then went to SAB when I was 15.
And then we got our, or I got my job at New York City Ballet at 17.

(03:26):
So a lot of jumping around, a lot of private training as well with Maria V.
Just so many people.
mean, ballet was...
His parents were like, this is what you're doing and we're going to put all our eggs inthis belly bag.
We would drive, so we would take class at, I think this was when we were at City Balletand we would be in the city of San Francisco.

(03:47):
Then we'd drive an hour and a half to Marina Bay's farm pretty much out in Santa Rosa andthen have a private for whatever, two hours and then go back home.
know, so a lot of traveling.
What was the switch like when you went from like kind of this, the craziness of being inthe orbit of what I think were your parents' friends to switching over to San Francisco,

(04:10):
which was probably a lot more structured, especially when you were young at 10.
It was, but at that point I was ready for like hardcore training, you know, and withacademics and stuff, like we went through intermediate, my brother and I, so I'm a twin
and my brother Aaron and I kind of did our trajectory the same way until I was a B.

(04:30):
Yeah.
When we got to SFB, it was just incredible.
had incredible teachers, Corey Esquivel, Antonio Castilla, Carter Bustamante, and it wasLola Diabla at that time.
It was just.
All the spinners.
It was so awesome.
And the dancers that were there were some of my favorites still to this day.
Zalo, Garcia, I mean, so many different people.

(04:53):
It was really inspiring because going from the smaller schools at that point, it wasn'treally real yet.
And then going to San Francisco Ballet, was like, my gosh, these guys are incredible.
And then seeing and then doing the bigger shows with San Francisco Ballet like Nutcrackerand even ABT.
So we would do things with when they were toured.
The opera,

(05:14):
the opera house and we did stuff with Smua and we did there was just all theseopportunities happening when we were like in our
He did Prince with San Francisco Ballet.
I mean, it just going through all the things, you know, that you do as a kid at one of thebigger schools.
There's a lot of opportunity for little kids there.
It's interesting, I think it's changed a little bit since you were there.

(05:37):
When our kids were there, didn't have, they weren't doing stuff with companies that werecoming through.
They got children's parts with the company, but that sounds like an interesting time.
Yeah, it was amazing during the 90s and with the crew and the teachers and all of that.
So why'd you leave?
Why'd you leave and go to SAB?
Well, I went to the summer course probably in 1994.

(05:58):
I was actually at that time, I was debating not doing ballet anymore.
Like I was just kind of done.
was getting, school was hard.
I would get made fun of all that stuff.
It was super hard.
And I was, I told my dad at one point, like, I don't want to do this anymore.
It's too hard.
We're skipping school or not skipping school, but going to school for a certain time.
Cause we, we advanced pretty quickly from intermediate to advanced.

(06:21):
then the schedule changes and you're there at 12.
whatever, and I'm 12 years old.
And we went to like correspondence and more of a not the regular school schedule to makethis work for us.
But when I went to SAB, I think that that year in 94 was like, it was either that my dadwas like, just go and see what you think.

(06:44):
In New York, SAB and I went to New York and it was Stanley Williams and jock and rap andcrammy and like all of these teachers and then going to
I mean, Lincoln Center and like New York and the like epicenter of like dance.
And then seeing Misha, Bershnikov and like all these people and they're just there infront of you, you know, and having them in class.

(07:07):
And I was like, wow, this is what I want.
And this is what I want to do.
And I think we went to shows at State Theater back then and I was blown away.
And I was like, this is exactly what I want.
The style, like the, I think.
the style but also it's just like this platform you know and it's like New York CityBallet and American Ballet Theater right there in the same space and and SAB was so set up

(07:32):
for like success you know you're you're just there and it's the New York mentality of justmaking it making it or like it's just it's just getting there so it was it was one of
those things where I came back and I was like this is what I want to do.
I think Seth really thrives in intense situations.
And if you're going to go intense, SAB, New York City Valley, New York, that's like whereit doesn't get more intense than that atmosphere.

(08:00):
And San Francisco, mean, just like you just fight, like you just explained, you know, allthe access you had to these phenomenal people, there's still like more of like a laid back
West Coast vibe, maybe.
uh
I think you're right, because my son went from San Francisco and then he did the secondcompany in Houston, which is a very, very laid-back culture.

(08:20):
Houston is just laid back.
And now he's in Boston.
And he said several times, he's like, it's really different.
I didn't realize how chill San Francisco is.
And I'm from the East Coast, so I was like, yeah, it's a little different.
But I don't think you realize it until you leave California, just how laid back it ishere.

(08:41):
Yeah, yeah, I think I always think because I mean, I'm from the East Coast too.
And like going to San Fran, it's like the weather and the sun and the mist and all thethings and like the East Coast, you're just like hardened like life is harder with the
real, you know, extreme temperatures and all this stuff.
But yeah, I think that you just something about that.
It's like the
It was also meeting all these new dancers from everywhere and then seeing the talent, howit was different from San Francisco.

(09:09):
San Francisco had a lot of talent.
mean, some of the best dancers ever, but then going and my friends here were like supertalented and I was like, oh my gosh, I have to, I have to be next to these people and I
have to beat off of them to get better and improve.
then Stanley Williams was the one that really was a big influence for me because he cameup to me and was just like,

(09:30):
I think that first year I was like, do you want to stay?
And I was 12 and I was like, uh, yes, I do, but I don't think my mom's gonna like me.
And it was just the environment of that time in the nineties at SAB with Stanley smokinghis pipe, you know, and then it's just like wafting in the fifth floor.
No, it was just like, it was such a great time and Darcy and Peter Martin's coming aroundand like, it was just such an amazing time.

(09:57):
And then you had.
the principles of New York City Valley coming into class with us as well.
You know, and just seeing them like Damien Wetzel.
And these are people at SF, like Jorge would tell us to grab videos, watch them, like,look at this, look at this, look at this.
And we were watching the balancing celebration, was Damien and Margaret Tracy.
And then right there in front of you, and you've been watching their tapes of Stars andStripes.

(10:19):
And like, it's just one of those things where you're like, holy smokes, like, I couldactually achieve this and.
be next to them and all that stuff.
And that's where it really got me going was like my drive.
And then I was like, these are my goals and this is what I want.
And that's what brought me to SAB.
That's really cool.
Sarah, what about you?

(10:40):
brought me to SAV, I had to go somewhere to get training.
I think from maybe my, I think we attended for four summers total.
like were there the exact same years, right?
So I think by my third summer, my family and I were like, okay, we're not ready yet.

(11:00):
But my sophomore year and Sukie was like, what are you doing next year?
And I said, just going back to my school and said, well,
Okay, well let's say we have a spot in the dorms for you.
And that was that.
remember calling my parents, Collact, and being like, invited me to stay.
And that was really it.
So yes, think if I was going to, I knew if I was going to dance professionally, which atthat point was ultimately absolutely what I wanted to do, I needed to go to a big school

(11:28):
like that.
How old were you?
I was a, I was 16.
Yeah.
So did SAB speak to you the same way it spoke to Seth?
Did you get there and just go, my gosh?
Yeah, and things from Massachusetts, we would drive up and watch New York City Ballet.
And I had this book, A Very Young Dancer, right?
That follows a girl at the School of American Ballet.

(11:51):
And she's performing Marie and the Nutcracker.
And same experience, same type of experience, arriving at a summer program and just seeingthis huge, vast pool of incredible talent and being at Lincoln Center, the energy we
formed.
you you forge these friendships that last a lifetime, essentially, even if you fall out,you can meet up, you know, 30 years later and you just pick up like you're 14 again.

(12:15):
So yes, absolutely.
And I, for me, I, there was a lot of uncertainty, but I just wanted to dance.
I was, I had a lot of, they had a lot of cleaning to do on me.
I think they saw potential, which was why I got the invitation, but.
Yeah, I had a lot of work to do.
I can talk more about that later, but yeah, just same general thing, just the energy andjust the wow factor of New York City and just like, this is where I gotta be.

(12:45):
Was it what you guys expected when you arrived?
Like once you were in it for a while, was it what you expected?
Program?
Yeah, for sure.
Like once you guys were year-round students.
Well, I think that what Seth will say, Stanley Williams, you know, a big part of why itcame was Stanley Williams, and he died our first fall there.
That was a pretty tragic and big pivot.

(13:09):
The year round program was very different from the summer program.
You had kids who had already long been there year round, just a total reframing of, it wasvery different, but not in a bad way.
It still felt very much like where I needed to be.
And it was just like, let's get to work.
It was really about the ballet and building new friendships and all that.

(13:30):
And during the summers, a lot of the year-round students were there as well.
So we knew some of them.
So it wasn't like this big shock of like, yeah, there's some.
And so that made it easier and like to break the ice coming in as a summer student as ayear-round.
Cause I feel like that's a really big step back then, at least from a summer coursestudent being invited for the year-round program was a huge deal.

(13:52):
And then coming in and
I mean, we're leaving home, like we're in the dorms.
Like it was just such uh an awesome experience.
And then again, it was about the work.
And like for me, like I was in advanced and back then I was like, okay, I'm here and I'mgonna work hard.
So I'd even take intermediate class at night, you know?

(14:14):
So then I would, because I really wanted to improve and I wanted this thing of gettinginto New York City Ballet.
And even in my second year, I was like, I wanna achieve this goal.
And I wanted to win the Wayne award, which is an award that they give out to the dancerswithout standing promise or something like that.
And I was like, that is one of my goals and I want to achieve that.
And I did everything I could possibly do to get better with my training.

(14:38):
And this is taking extra classes didn't matter.
and I achieved that.
Yeah, it was a lot, it was a lot more, we're here to work.
was less fun, less fooling around and exploring the city.
was just like, okay, is a lot like, you know, girls and my sweet and stuff just being likeinformed, like this is how it is.

(14:58):
This is who this person is.
This is, and then a lot of ways I was super naive coming from this really small schoolbackground.
My parents were not immersed in the Valley world at all.
Of course, this was before social media.
So.
Yes, I was just like, totally okay, this is how it is.
And for me, though I knew I wanted to be a professional dancer, that first year, I was nota top student.

(15:23):
I would not have said like, I'm getting into New York City Ballet.
I remember people saying like, well, she's gonna get in and this is who got in last.
Like all this stuff, right?
All this stuff that's just getting thrown at you.
And I was just like, okay, I'm gonna keep going to class and hope this pays off.
So.
Wait a minute.
Hold on.
Can we go back a little bit?
You said your sweet mates were told this is how it is.
What do you mean by that?

(15:44):
Like this is this person.
This is that person.
Like what do you mean by that?
Because think a lot of people don't understand the mystique and things that happen whenyou get into these bigger, much more competitive programs.
Sure, yes.
So I had one friend in particular and she had already been there either for one or twoyears.

(16:05):
she was in, so just for some context, the advanced female levels were C1, C2 and D.
C1 was the lowest rung of that, the upper level, the senior levels.
And that's where I was placed the first year.
C2 was like the goal, the golden circle of these were the dancers who were the mostadvanced and were on a trajectory to New York City Ballet.

(16:31):
And then if not New York City Ballet, other top tier companies.
And then there was D, which at that point had kind of become this resting place fordancers who were not going to get into New York City Ballet.
Right.
And this is just all this understanding of just let me finish this like understanding ofhow it works because

(16:51):
Clearly Peter Martin comes in and he plucks the dancers that are in C2.
These are the dancers who are doing the leads in the workshop.
So from when I say that she was telling me this is how things are, she would tell me whowere the leads in workshop last year.
So who's clearly in our minds going to get into New York City Ballet?
Who's going to be the star?

(17:12):
Who are the favorites of?
Literally all the internal work.
However, it was real to a degree because that was reflective of how people landed in NewYork City Ballet.
So for me, when I arrived that year and was placed in C1, it was a little bit of like,ooh, okay, this is not so good because most of my peers of my age are in C2, which, so

(17:40):
right out of the gate, I was like, okay, I clearly have some work to do, which was fine.
Yeah, I hope that answered that question.
But there was like definitely this internal understanding of the way that things worked.
And then interestingly, all the workshop participants for females came from C2 or D.

(18:00):
C1 dancers were not used in the workshop performance at the end of the year, which wasreally where all the directors of other ballet companies and stuff would come and a lot of
jobs were gone that way, right?
So to not be in workshop was a pretty big deal.
The end of my year or when they started workshop, actually, me and one other girl, we weresecond cast of the core of a ballet.

(18:24):
So that was like this first like, okay, they're seeing a little more of me.
So I have more I can say about like that transition for me.
But yeah.
For me, I love the competition.
I love that.
Thanks.
it, but it definitely was like, it was a lot to internalize, a lot to try to understandand a lot to try to knowing like, you're up against this person and this person, this

(18:48):
person who are already there.
How is this ever going to happen?
There's so much uncertainty, right?
There's so much uncertainty and these people are your closest friends because you're withthem 24 seven, but they're also your competitors.
And I remember watching my son go through that both at San Francisco and then at Houstonwhere he and his buddies were competing for the same jobs.

(19:10):
But at the same time, they're in each other's rooms commiserating over stuff.
That's That's normal.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think unless you're an adult or like, you know, really introspective or you get pastit and you look back and you've got that, it's a really weird way to go throughout
adolescence, right?
in the story, I watched my 12 year old who all our friends do very vastly differentthings.

(19:34):
So they're just this pool of different kinds of things that they identify with and thatlike kind of define them right now.
And it's not them all fighting for the same role while being
besties and going through life together.
Right.
I don't think I really realized that that was what it was like as a student.
Like I wasn't competing in that kind.

(19:55):
very unique in terms of that he just like stays in his own lane.
Until I was in the company, that's when I was competing for roles and attention and allthat stuff.
At SAV during the year was more like, let's just have fun.
And it was such a good group of guys that we were with, all my friends.
mean, everyone made it to somewhere.

(20:15):
It was just such a good group, you know?
And then we grew up at SAV and then going into New York City Ballet, I was performing withmy friends that I grew up with, you know?
And this is over not just the two years that we were there in the year, this is foursummers before that.
of creating these relationships and friendships and all that stuff.
And newcomers would come in and just like smoke us, you know?

(20:36):
like, yes, we like you.
You know, like it was just such a good group of people.
like, and then having that time on stage in the core of New York City Ballet, was likehands down some of the best times I've ever had in my life.
I think this might speak like the difference, a little bit to the difference between goingthrough SAB as a female dancer.

(21:01):
A little different because it's not that...
I think guys just don't...
well maybe it's just me.
I don't really think...
talking about how you perceive things, because I know plenty of guys did, were challengedby that.
That's what mean, think Seth has a very, in my own lane, not worried about everybody else.
But I think there's so much more female dancers, there's just so much more to wade throughand so many more people you're up against.

(21:26):
Versus for the guys, it's more of like, there's only so few of us, we got a band together,and it's just less.
And like, yeah, like he said, he was teased in school, now he's found his community.
versus like it's a very different experience.
I saw that at San Francisco.
mean, my son was lucky.
He was bullied a little bit when he was younger, but not much.
You know, think living where we do made it a lot easier than some of what his friendsdealt with.

(21:50):
But watched him get to San Francisco, and all these guys were like, my god, I'm not theonly one in the studio.
This is amazing.
And so they all became really good friends.
And I'm curious if this happened to you guys.
Like, one thing I've noticed, just as my son has grown up through the ballet world, is
the friendships get developed really, really fast because you're with each other all thetime and they last, which I didn't expect to have happen.

(22:17):
Yeah.
And I think it's such, it's, you know, dance is its own unique language and it's sofocused.
So when you have other people that understand that focus and understand that language,it's just that perfect fit.
And you're like bleeding together.
It's like, like in the trenches, you are like deep in it.
You all have the same goal.

(22:38):
You're all in it to win it.
And it's just creating like this friendship.
I mean, I'm still, we're still really close with all of our friends from back then.
mean that's lovely to hear and it is it's nice to hear that in some ways you have somevery different experiences because the the male female experience is really really
different because once you get into that really high level everybody's good but there arejust so many more women and like the bullying that guys feel in early women get

(23:09):
Oh, and it's the opposite.
Like, ballerinas put on this pedestal, right?
Like, all girls, like, dancing around their tutu, and then you, as a female, you tellsomeone you're a ballerina, it's pretty cool, and it's just so opposite.
Unfortunately, still.
Yeah, I mean, but I think it's very interesting because we spend a lot of time talkingabout the men experience, but we actually talk very little about what women actually go

(23:30):
through when they are older.
And it's just kind of accepted that this is just kind of how it is.
You don't need to solve ballet, but it's nice to hear someone else talk about it becausesometimes I feel like I say it and then I feel a little crazy.
But and I didn't do any of that.
Right.
And this is just me watching my daughter.
But what happens at that very, very high level?
mean, San Francisco is.

(23:50):
I mean, everyone wants to go there.
It's like SAB.
Everyone wants to go there, right?
And so it just gets super, super, super competitive.
So can you guys talk a little bit more about your trajectory and SAB and then what?
Yeah, so as I was talking about with the C1 situation, so I was put in the workshop, whichwas like a little hint for me of that, like somebody somewhere was going like, let's push

(24:19):
Sarah a little more.
I think there are probably like 20 something girls in the class.
And so two of us were in that workshop performance.
And
that so you go to SAB around, you're not going to go to the summer program.
So like for the first time in four or five years, I was faced with what am going to dothis summer?
So the programs come and host auditions.
I auditioned for a few and the Chautauqua School of Dance program really appealed to meand Jean-Pierre Bonnefou ran the audition.

(24:47):
I remember just loving his class and I just remember performing like so full out andjust...
been a dancer, you know, when you've like done a good job, right?
Or when you've gotten somebody's attention in a positive way.
So remember getting a phone call in the dorms, it was somebody from Chautauqua reachingout, know, SAV just sends you a letter.
So it was very interesting that Chautauqua like called me and she said, you are the veryfirst person on this list to call and we would love to have you at the summer program.

(25:16):
And my parents had said,
you need to get scholarships somewhere for the summer because we're like bleeding sendingyou to SAB, right?
And so I said to this woman, I'm going to need like help.
going to need finances.
And she said, the fact that you're on the top of this list, they're going to be happy tocover you.
So I went to Chautauqua for the summer and oddly I got super homesick, right?

(25:38):
So here I had been like away for a whole year.
not an ounce of like sadness.
And I just, got there and it's a pretty isolated place and it's a long program at sevenweeks.
And I called my parents and I was like, you want to go home?
They were like, well, you can't come home.
But, so the way she talk was set up is you have classes, but it all builds to these bigperformances.

(25:59):
And Susie Pilar, who was one of our teachers at SAB, her daughter was a dear friend ofmine and she, we were in C1 together and she was there at the program with me.
So.
When we culminated in that show, I did a lead in Western Symphony and Jean-Pierre Bonifouhad choreographed a lead role for me.
And so Susie ended up coming, of course, to see her daughter and as a byproduct saw meperform.

(26:22):
I got some insider feedback, but based on that performance that she saw and also I guesssome of the teachers had been talking, you cause you have to decide where do we put the
kids?
The essay be like, how do they move up?
So.
Sorry, I'm bouncing around, but what had been unfortunately decided at SAB that year wasthat D was no longer going to be like the holding place level, that everybody was going to

(26:49):
move up one at a time.
So everybody in C2, who I really wanted to be with and who wanted to be my peers, theywere all going to go to D and C2.
Everybody's going to move up like this, right?
And so that kind of panicked a lot of us C1ers, like how is it all going to flash out?
this whole internal like system of understanding.

(27:10):
But ultimately I don't really know, I don't really remember what happened with that.
But what happened was most of my C1 colleagues, dancers, were moved to D.
Like they bypassed C2, sorry, they bypassed and went to C2 and then all those other peoplewent to D who had been in C2 the previous year.

(27:31):
Am I making any sense?
And so I was the only
person from that class who got put into D with those advanced students for my second yearat SAB.
You know, like we talked about, there's so much uncertainty and so much luck involved withall of this, right?
And so long story short, I really thrived on stage and performed.

(27:55):
so Suzy saw this thing and they decided they were going to move me up.
So for my second year, it was a whole different ball game.
So I really worked my butt off.
in C1 and in my first year, like mentally struggling, like knowing what the hierarchy was,like I'm probably not going to get into City Ballet.
Like I'm really at the bottom of the barrel here.
And then things pivoted like that for me, really.

(28:16):
So I, and I remember showing up at SAB for year two and some of my friends being like,this sucks.
Like we're all just being, you know, everybody got moved to D and we're just moving up andwe're never going to be with the, the really good.
dancers who are gonna get the really good jobs.

(28:36):
And meanwhile, I had this kind of secret that I had been told like, well, you're gonna getto move up.
And I had to go and confirm that.
And it was true.
And it felt like this like magic ball moment for me that someone in back in those sacredoffices were like, Sarah's got a chance.
And I didn't know, I didn't know what all that meant.
But so I got put with all these dancers who I really looked up to and then were suddenlymy peers.

(29:00):
And I did lose some.
There was a lot of animosity thrown my way from my peeps who I had been with all theprevious year and we're just, you know, in that chug along trajectory.
And ultimately a lot of them ended up really great places too, but that was this weirdwhole thing that happened for me.
And I just think for kids who are, where there's so much uncertainty, you just never know.

(29:22):
You're just going to keep going because you never know what kind of thing is going to flipfor you.
And when.
the tides will kind of sweep you up.
I just think it was a pretty interesting moment.
As a guy, I had no idea this was happening.
All my time at SAB because we have intermediate and advanced and that's it and you'reeither one or the other.

(29:43):
Drama you guys so much like level drama
I think it's changed a little because my son definitely saw that drama, not to the samedegree, but at San Francisco there was the same speculation like who's getting moved up,
who's getting cut, who's getting a trainee spot, all of that.

(30:06):
I don't know, I think it may have changed a little bit or you just went through in likeyour happy little bubble.
Uniquely Seth went through a little bubble because I had a lot of like my friends wereguys that were in Classes with him and stuff and they were going through similar stuff
liked the competitive and being on the spot and almost showing off a little bit was one ofmy favorite things to do.

(30:29):
Doing summer auditions was one of my favorite things.
I would love to go in there and just try to be the best I could and get all the attentionand do the jumps and the turns and all that stuff.
And that's kind of what I've thrived on.
during SAV, every day was like that.
It was like an audition to get better.

(30:50):
really built mentally for this profession.
that's clear.
Oh my gosh.
I wish that you could just take a little bit of that and just pass it to everybody becauseso many of them are plagued with doubt and it's so nice to hear someone who is just like,
I don't know, I just kind of like kept pushing and loved that competitive.

(31:12):
I don't know, I just love that experience.
It's almost like going on stage and the butterflies or what you get before the nervousnessof not knowing what's next.
I love
It's funny because Franvayette talked about that too.
He said that he was like, you know, if there was a guy in there who was better than me orwas doing, you know, a triple tour and I was only doing a W, he was like, heck no, man,

(31:34):
I'm going for it.
Like, no, no, watch this.
And I don't know, I love hearing that.
think it's just, it's nice to hear because I think we as parents sometimes have to reallythink about how we parent our kids through ballet training and really help.
instill some and some of it you've just born with right like you're just born with thatcompetitive nature but also that just go for it right and

(31:58):
Yeah, and I wish I had been told more of that or somehow been given more of that becauseagain, as we speak to like the opposites of like the male experience to the female
experience, there was so much pressure on being having humility, which I think is anexcellent and important quality.
I would never want to tout things in people's face.
But for example, during my second year, it came time for, you know, those levels toaudition for summer programs.

(32:22):
And I
was getting ready to go audition for Miami City Ballet and a couple of girls to me said,why are you doing this audition?
You might just take jobs for us.
And I was like, what?
Like literally mind blown, what are you even talking about?
And then another friend saying, well, cause you're getting into New York City Ballet.
And very rapidly I had become one of those people that someone was saying, and this iswhat the, you know, and this is who she is and she's going to City Ballet.

(32:47):
I just, again, some of my naivete was like, I don't know that nobody's told me I'm gettinga job.
They were basing this on, you know, I was doing leads in workshops.
So retrospectively, sure, I'm sure it looked that way, but I was like, I still got to goaudition for Miami City Ballet.
What if I don't?
I got to get a job too.
our vets as well.
just going back to our relationship, like we started dating when we were 15.

(33:10):
So a long time ago and have been together since then.
But we did this audition together with Eddie Vilela as well and it went really, I mean,again, it was so fun and he was such a great teacher and it was just such a experience and
it was like, oh, we are getting in here and we
think that I didn't think I was getting in there.

(33:32):
But I a call in my suite again, and it was Eddie Vilella's assistant.
She was like, Eddie would like to hire you for the next season, right?
And I was like, actually my roommate who ended up having a long career at Miami CityBallet got the call too.
So I went downstairs to tell Seth.

(33:52):
And before he even said it, he was like, did they did Miami call?
And he was like, I knew we were getting it.
Like this just speaks to how sure he is of everything.
And I'm like, no confidence whatsoever.
And so we had to go and tell Anita, the head of the dorms, that we had been offered jobsby Miami City Ballet because we just didn't even know what to do with that information.

(34:15):
I think he said, like, think on it and call back.
So Anita's first thing with the three of us, me and Seth and this other girl who had...
been offered a job.
again, that speaks to like how wild it is, you know, from these this audition, which withhundreds of people had come and taken, they were giving out three contracts.
So her first call was to Kay Mazzo, who was the head of the school at that point.

(34:37):
And then Kay's first call was to Peter Martens, because he got first right of refusal,right.
So Anita said, Okay, guys, Peter's gonna come, Martin's gonna come watch each of yourclasses tomorrow and decide
if he wants to invite you to join the company or if you should go to Miami.
So, I mean, that was like a very nerve wracking night in today and then class.

(35:01):
And I remember Susie Pilar giving combinations that I knew she knew I would do really wellin.
It was so lovely, like the support I felt.
And then Kay Mazzo after that class, so Peter came in and watched, know, nobody saysanything.
And then Kay.
hold us all in and I remember her saying to me, can go wherever you want, but Peter wouldlike you to join New York City Ballet.

(35:26):
And obviously I said yes to New York City Ballet.
you know, they make you do all these hard things.
So I did call, you know, Miami back and say thank you so much, but this is what I'm goingto do.
And I don't know who told you, you don't remember?
You already knew.
think I already kind of knew I was getting it was because I was winning the Wayne.

(35:51):
I think so.
And I don't, I don't know if that was right after that, but it was somewhere around thattime where usually when you win the Wayne, you get an apprenticeship with New Sea Valley.
So our friend Callie accepted and she went to Miami.
But and then now that I'm talking about this, I'm thinking about the people who are sayingyou're going to take jobs for a month for auditioning and then.

(36:14):
But it wasn't a sure thing.
Nothing is a sure thing.
So was like, where can we go together?
Because that was important to us even back then when we were 17.
Yeah, I don't know.
That year for myself and for her, I feel like we developed into these dancers that wereready for New York City Ballet.

(36:34):
Like we were trained, we were ready to go.
And I think they saw that as well back then.
And I think Eddie did too.
And I would have loved to work with Eddie as well.
And was just so funny because I didn't really, coming from San Francisco, I didn't reallyknow New York City Valley.
I didn't really know.
I knew Misha, APT, I knew like all of those people.
And I knew like Damien, but I didn't know how intertwined everyone was like Eddie and Kayand Peter and-

(36:59):
Right, they all grew up in their own trenches.
They were all dancers together.
So it's just like this thing of like, they just probably called each other and were like,hey, we actually want this person.
I don't think, you know, I think a lot of students don't realize just how much that goeson.
And my son one time said the New York City ballet is like the ballet mafia because they,you know, they send people out and then, but they all stay tied to each other.

(37:21):
But I think ballet in general is like that.
I don't think people realize how small it is, but everybody's one phone call away fromeverybody else.
Yeah.
So can you talk a little bit about the factors that led to you leaving City Ballet andgoing to PNB?
Yes.
Yeah, so...
I should probably start because I quit first.

(37:44):
So I, you know, I had found out because they had to tell me early because I had gottenthis job and Peter had to make the call.
So I knew, you know, I think that was probably in like March or April of my second year atSAB that Peter was saying, yes, you're going to, you're going to come into the, into City
Ballet.
And I was in three workshops, three workshop allies that year, and I was doing the lead inall of them.

(38:07):
So I mean, at that point.
I still felt very insecure and unsure, like wildly if I think about that now.
Like I should have probably just felt like on cloud nine or like, know, so sure myselfthat for whatever reasons, I just felt like it all could all just go away or like, you
know, who knows?
So the idea was I was going to start as an apprentice in the fall.

(38:30):
There was me and Seth and Craig Hall and Carla Corbis and Megan Pepin and maybe a coupleother dance, they are Thursdays.
We were all going to start in the fall.
So I wrapped up workshop, packed up the, packed up my dorm stuff.
My parents came and got me.
And we drove home the three hours to Western Mass to a voicemail on the sheen from MadamGlobach, who is the, ran things at the school saying, Peter actually needs you to start in

(38:58):
the company tomorrow.
you need to be in company class.
We didn't unpack the car.
We got in the car and we drove back to New York.
And they put me and it turned out they needed another girl, Faye, and they put us up atthe Empire Hotel and we showed up for company class and we started working on Swan Lake

(39:18):
because they needed bodies in Swan Lake.
And it was me and Faye in the practice room at State, what is it, the Coff Theater.
Just the two of us with Rosemary learning all of Swan Lake, just the two of us.
So that was my entry into it.
And I was exhausted because we had just wrapped up what was like, you know, physicallyexhausting and now looking back, totally emotionally exhausting and just, you know, all

(39:44):
around crazy year.
And I had expected to go home and chill out for the summer before I started this job.
And learning an entire, because this was the full length, learning an entire ballet justone-on-one like that was so incredibly intense.
I felt, I think I was a little homesick.
It wasn't all my regular peeps.
Like we were all supposed to join together, which sounds so ridiculous.

(40:06):
Cause you think, well, he picked me and Faye to start right away.
I should just be like joyful.
But it was hard.
then they, then, you know, after a week Rosemary was like, we'd actually like to take youboth to Saratoga still.
which is Saratoga is the summer home for New York City, but LA Upstate, and we used to gofor three weeks.
So I, and the dancers all rent houses.

(40:27):
So I piggybacked with some people I kind of knew in their house.
It was a very, I felt really alone.
It was really overwhelming.
And that was my entry into it.
And I actually left early.
So every step of the way, the marker kept getting moved.
We were supposed to just stay for the first week.

(40:48):
And then we got there and Rosemary was like, we'd like you to stay for the whole time andwe can use you in X, Y, Z.
And I was really on the verge of a breakdown.
And I called my dad and I was just like, you guys, I can't stay here.
So we made up an excuse and they came and got me and I went home.
And for better or for worse, so many people would just, I knew in my head,

(41:11):
how many girls would have killed to be in my position.
And I was really like, I just can't do this right now.
Can you actually...
talk about that a little bit because one of the things I think that from the outsidelooking in, people look at dancers who have had great careers, right?
Like from the outs, like from where I sit, you guys had glide paths, right?

(41:33):
You went to your ballet school, Seth, you just kind of, it sounds like showed up and said,I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be doing this.
And Sarah, you you came from your small school, which is what a lot of people do, wentinto SAB, sounds like had a great experience and then just.
had a glide path right into the company, but what are some of the things that peopledidn't see while you were in school and then in your early years of the company?

(41:55):
And then we can kind of get back to why you left.
You're the things that people wouldn't see.
And yes, you're absolutely right.
So all these things that I say are with this knowledge of that.
I achieved everything I set out to do and that I had people at every step of the wayteachers and people in charge believing me in me and pushing me and, really seeing me and

(42:20):
seeing like the potential and taking chances on me of which I'm eternally grateful.
I think.
What people wouldn't see is the constant uncertainty that I lived with every day fromthose summer programs to the school, through early company life, through becoming a
principal dancer.
And that uncertainty takes the form of, will I be put in a high level?

(42:45):
Well, first of all, will I get in?
Will I be put in the right level?
Will I be as good as everybody else?
Will I get a role in the workshop?
Will I get a lead role in the workshop?
Will I get offered a job?
Will I get cast in this ballet?
Will I get promoted?
Right?
Every step of the way, every day, you're literally faced with uncertainty because the goldmarker is always being moved.

(43:08):
You know, for what you're...
What...
The expectation is for yourself, right?
Like it's always one more thing that you are pushing yourself to do.
You get into the summer program, you wanna go to the year round program, you get in theyear round program, you wanna be in the highest level, you're getting the highest level,
you want the lead, right?
All these things ultimately leading to the career, which is what for most dancers on thatpre-pro trajectory, that's what the hope is.

(43:36):
So like living with that uncertainty is...
is probably the most challenging part.
And then the self doubt.
And then, so the biggest shift from school life for me to company life was going from thisbubble where everybody was really caring for me and supporting me.
And two, what felt like quite the opposite was that everybody was just passing it to youand saying sink or swim.

(44:04):
Nobody's going to help you.
We will give you this.
We will give you this part.
We will teach you this.
then
like everything else is on you.
The burden of responsibilities shifts really greatly from school to company life, right?
In a school where the teachers are bearing a lot of the burden of giving you the tools tobecome a better dancer, bearing a lot of the burden of teaching you all these things to

(44:30):
accompany life and mind.
Really sink or swim, and especially at New York City Valley.
I mean, when I first got in there coming from SAB, and even with all my experience andeverything, I was like treading.
I didn't know what to do, because rehearsals would be like that, and I would be over andI'm like, hey, I don't even know what I'm doing yet.
Like, I don't know.

(44:50):
And the show, I remember it was Swan Lake, we just doing court or something, and one of myfriends and I were in our dorm trying to learn this off of a tape, because the rehearsal
and the show is tonight, you know?
We're still trying to learn this.
I'm in front.
And I remember just totally blowing it.
It was my first time, I think, on stage and I was just doing court and it was just doinglike character stuff.

(45:13):
And I remember Rosemary, one of the ballet mistresses back then, or she still is now, butshe was in the wing waiting for me.
And she took me to the side and was like, what happened?
And I was like, I didn't know what I was doing.
I tried to learn that.
That's the choreography.
my God.
Best stuff.
Cause it's all like 30 other dancers.

(45:36):
So everyone's doing the same thing.
And then you have me in the front.
I'm doing looking back, like trying to keep up, you know?
And then, so for me, the transition from a student becoming a professional dancer was areally hard one.
And you're learning a lot of different things at the same time.
So it took a second for me to acclimate to

(45:58):
learning choreography within a couple days.
nothing prepares you for that.
in the schools can...
Like you'd have to have like immersive training of here's a ballet, learn it in two hoursand then let's have a pretend performance tonight or so.
You know, like it's just there's not a way to trans...
And you know, New York City Ballet, you know, to be fair, it is just such a big wheel andthey are spitting out...

(46:25):
Really.
and dozens of ballets every night and there's constant injury and constant turnover.
They just need you to be able to step in and fill that role and execute it to a T.
And some people, like the girl who got in the same time as me, think intellectually shewas just much more there and ready to just perform and meet that, meet those demands.
And everybody's just different.

(46:46):
I think by nature I was a lot more sensitive and unsure of myself and those doubts onlygot.
greater as I felt like I wasn't performing at the level I wanted to perform at because theit was just so much harder, right?
It was all there.
It was just another hurdle to get over.
you get into that grind and then it just goes away and you're on stage and you're justlike, you're just doing it.

(47:14):
Then you realize, yeah, you've got to order your food to the stage door, then you can takeit to the basement and watch the tape so then you can show up to rehearsal and know your
stuff so that you're not letting the team down.
You just figure out.
Was there like a point where you both were like, I get it.
I now know how to be a company member.

(47:34):
Yeah, and it doesn't take long because you're
How long?
Oh no, I'd say it probably took me a couple years to feel like
A couple of months, it was like, okay, I'm in the groove, you know, and I started knowing,because I didn't really know a lot of Balanchine and Robbins ballets back then.
I know like the classics, like Don Q and Giselle and like all the big ones that I watchedas a kid.

(47:57):
And then seeing all these different Balanchine ballets and Drone Robbins ballets, and Iwas like, oh my gosh, this is so different from what I expected.
And then learning these ballets and then doing, I mean, it just, it happened reallyrelatively fast.
for me getting into.
Did you figure out tricks to learn values faster?
I just like, had to like teach myself.

(48:18):
I was never a very good learner.
It always took me a little bit longer, even throughout my career.
And I learned how to fake it as well.
And that's a big part of it.
Yeah, you learn how to fish eye and copy the person next to you.
And I actually think this is a part of the ballet training path that I think a lot ofparents really struggle with.
which is how to parent your kid and help learn how to break that gap.

(48:44):
Because...
When Abby started her job, I actually stayed in Pittsburgh for about three weeks.
And I just because I did, I didn't know.
I mean, she kind of like got to her job really fast.
We just had to like turn it around.
And granted, you know, she had to move into an apartment with zero things and all that.
I actually stayed because she would come home and I hope she didn't get mad at me and beable to take this out.

(49:07):
She come home and cry.
Yeah, that's amazing that you did that.
I think that my parents would be like, there's no way you would have let us stay for twoweeks.
Like a part of me would have been like, I'm fine, but maybe not.
Maybe had they been close by and I could go home and have a home cooked meal.
Maybe those kinds of things would have made all the difference, right?
Because you're still very much a child.

(49:28):
Yes.
guys were what, 17?
Yeah, and it's not like, you know, and then those things that you had at the school or thekids that are in college, you know, you have your, go to the cafeteria and you get your
food, you have like your RA on your floor, like all that's gone.
You're going home to your apartment, trying to navigate all the adulting things.

(49:48):
So I think that's really, I think your daughter will one day, you know, maybe she alreadydoes really appreciate that.
But yes, there is just this sense of being totally alone in an adult world.
You're very much a child.
And I feel the pressure of
of and Seth, I don't know.
feel like in some ways you were just like, let's go.

(50:10):
joining a company so young and then if you're getting certain stuff, there's jealousy andlearning how to I make in this and I'm sure for you guys, City Ballet is such a machine.
It's like what fit in in this ecosystem and how do I make myself useful?
Right, valuable.

(50:31):
Yeah.
there's always this back then.
So you join as the apprentice and then you need to earn a certain amount of ballets.
That's how it went to get your core contract or occasionally they would just fork over thecore contract.
like you're competing once again with your fellow apprentices to get to achieve sevenballets performed on stage or night.

(50:51):
So there was like a, literally were keeping score with your.
Yeah, yeah.
And sometimes, like, why I got brought in early was because there were two apprenticesthat they did not want to hire into the Corps, and they were getting really, they were
getting dangerously close to getting their, you know, Aetherknife ballet.

(51:12):
They brought new apprentices in to fill those spaces, and then they let those otherapprentices go.
So that's really clever.
People who don't know, what do you mean their eighth or ninth ballet?
What does that mean?
uh
That meaning that whatever the number was that year for how many ballets, because theseare Agma companies, right?
New York City is an Agma company.

(51:35):
they, once you, once an apprentice had performed a certain amount of ballets, they had togive over a core contract.
And then once you have a core contract, it's much harder to get rid of a dancer.
That's when you're really saying this person is now in the company.
these dancers, for whatever reason, Peter was not wanting to hire them into the core, butthey had,

(51:55):
all year been racking up their ballets and you know if they performed Western Symphony itwas going to be their contract ballet.
So they did not put those dancers in and they put Bay and I in in their spot which is areal chore right and I don't know if that's the way anymore but
I think I did it twice where I would get really close and then they were like, you'reactually not going to

(52:15):
Yeah, they put somebody else in place because they didn't think you're quite ready forthat contract.
So it was this.
Where I was like, wait, what?
So I have a question, this is more like a rumor, can you guys dispel this myth, is thatonce you get into New York City Ballet, they don't fire people.
Like other ballet companies you hear all the time about dancers who, this one yearcontract where you may or may not get renewed and every year there's like turnover, the...

(52:40):
degree that's right in terms of like small like when we were in New York City by yes youdidn't have like evaluations once a year and then you didn't find that it was like you're
in and unless there's a big issue that will be addressed and you know they put people onlike notice or something those kind of things like at PNB every year there you had a

(53:01):
meeting right totally
I was like, why are we here?
Like, why are you?
to not do that because it wasn't this thing looming over your head every year.
It was just like, you're in, and unless there's an issue that, you know, that they'lladdress with you.
So it's partly true, partly not.
But then, you know, we were there during 9-11 and then the big fallout financially, youknow, and they let a lot of dancers go at one point.

(53:26):
When I was there, there was a big, round fire.
A lot of people said, well, they use this to clean house or, you know, like we couldfigure out who they were going to let go.
But yes, they were definitely, we saw people get fired, but there wasn't that likeanticipation every year of like, will I get a contract?
Yeah.
I wouldn't say one is better than the other because it was a surprise if people got letgo.

(53:47):
was a thing where it was like, okay, our yearly evaluations coming and like, maybe I'llhave a contract next year.
Like that wasn't a part of it.
was more like you knew your, you know how you were performing that you were going to.
if you were being left alone, you were fine.
But if you're on stage constantly, which we were, we were in everything, all the corestuff, you're always driving, you know, in like two to three ballets a night.

(54:12):
That's where you know that you're being used for what you're there for.
And then finally then starting to get a taste of like being given a soloist role or alllike those things when you actually then can start to see it's a little more than just
filling a a spot or just doing the bare bones.

(54:34):
Now, once again, like at the school, someone's maybe seeing some more potential andpushing us out there further, which did start to happen.
The there is different than in other companies.
The core and New York City Ballet work.
I'm just saying like, but with like the Peter Martin stuff, was like the four guys and thefour girls that would always do like the back end role of like fearful symmetries or

(54:58):
there's just so many things that it was like the four guys that would always standtogether and be like myself and my like four best friends or three best friends.
And we'd always be on stage together and like just
I don't know, it's just one of those things where we were always on stage together, so wenever really had that worry.
I don't know, I think this might be a girl guy thing again.

(55:19):
mean, it sounds like just in terms of this is very interesting, though, because lookingall I keep hearing is the absence of communication becomes the narrative.
So it's like you got it sounds like the culture there was just if they leave you alone,then you're doing something right.
And it's only if they're talking to you is that you kind of have an issue.

(55:42):
I mean, I think that might be a little too black and white because when we were there, ourexperience, like if you did a good job, Peter would tell you.
Like he was always backstage at the show.
So wasn't you would literally hear nothing.
You would get feedback and you know, you would see.
would hear if it was a bad show too.
Yeah.
those were the wrong.

(56:02):
although it wasn't like this once a year scheduled, you the only reason to get pulled intoan office or for like a talk would be if there was something big going on.
But that didn't mean that you weren't getting daily feedback.
Sounds like things were going well at City Ballet, so what made you move to PNL?
Things were going well.

(56:23):
Things, think, year four, five, I really hit a stride.
I had seen some of my friends fall off the City Valley wagon by that time, you know, andall of this just came from, it was too much mentally.
So at that point...
I think a lot of times like year one, two, that's when Peter would either not hire theseapprentices into the company, lose people that way.

(56:48):
And then another year or two in, a lot of people would just go, this is just not for me.
I'm going to go to college.
I'm going to join another company.
Right.
This is just too much.
It's just so you're there.
It's of is crazy.
There's a lot of pressure.
People are like, I don't want to do it.
So I think ultimately, I, for me, I reached this place where I was starting to get

(57:09):
little soloist roles, he said, demi soloist stuff, I was always out there.
I was dancing at time.
Like people would say, you know, kids who were at SAB at that time and who would come tothe ballet.
And then, you know, later I danced at PNB with them and say, but you were on stage likeall the time.
You were one of like the, the core dancers, right?
There was a lot going on behind the scenes with people that were in charge that I wasgetting a lot of negative feedback.

(57:37):
I felt.
really, again, once again, really unsure of my place, like I was not good enough, and Iwas really starting to hate ballet.
You can't do something like that without it being hard on your body, fine, but it also,have to feel like, for me, I had to feel like I was also growing as a person, as a human
being, and like mentally being challenged, mentally being stimulated, and being part ofsomething that was really good and...

(58:05):
for me as a person.
And that mental component became too challenging.
I was facing too much kind of beratement, not from Peter Martin's, but from other peoplethat were in charge at the time there.
I wasn't there longer there, but it just started to really take its toll.
And I don't really like to go into the details of the stuff that was going on.

(58:30):
Like it was burnout.
Yeah, it just felt like I was constantly being dug at.
And I don't know if that the idea from those people was to like spur me on and encourageme, or if it really was just to dig.
Nevertheless, regardless of what the intent was, it really beat me down and beat me downand beat me down.
And I just was not enjoying any of that anymore.

(58:51):
And I had a friend who was retiring and she had already started her own jewelry businessand she was, I would hire you, you know, and pay you a salary and stuff.
So.
And I like, that's it, I'm done.
I told my parents, you know, I'm quitting.
And I think that must've been the most shocking call of their life or things.

(59:14):
Peter was really surprised and he was like, you can come back anytime.
I think you're a dancer.
I think you belong here.
He was a little bit puzzled.
He was like, I don't know what happened.
And it really wasn't anything that he did.
It was stuff going on with other people.
And so I left and for about,
Three months, I would go to work and come home and I would like dance for joy in mykitchen because I just felt so free.

(59:39):
And then I got so depressed.
Waking up at four in the morning, shaking depressed, like crying and just, I didn't knowwho I was without dance.
For me seeing this, because I was very supportive in her leaving and I thought it was theright thing for her to do at the moment because it was very stressful at the moment in

(01:00:01):
that time at the Erisky Valley and all that stuff.
And then working with her friend with the jewelry stuff and it was going well for a whilebut then it kind of just sloped off and it was like she would tell me that she wants to
dance again and I was like, okay.
you were kind of like, I think you probably want to dance again or like that this happens.
Yeah, I was like, course you want to dance again.

(01:00:23):
I'm like, this is what we do.
Like, I'm still doing it every day.
I'm at New York City Ballet by myself now without you here.
I mean, if I look back in retrospect, I think had I been able to really talk it throughwith somebody like what I was going through, know, aside from just Seth, who was also just
in his own lane, like, because it was kind of a hot button decision that I think, ofcourse, I'm glad I made the decision ultimately, but it was really rash because I just

(01:00:50):
reached this boiling point.
And in some degree, I let these people kind of win and decide my life for me.
Versus I think if Peter would have known he would have just talked to her
Maybe, yeah, maybe, but I had made up my mind at that point.
Like I was like, I'm going to, but a part of it also, you're young.
And I was like, a little bit, was like, screw these people, I'm out.

(01:01:12):
Like, this is not okay.
Like I knew this kind of behavior was not okay.
My parents had, you know, I had enough of a normal foundation to know when things are notright and treating young people.
And from that moment of knowing that she wanted to come back, I was, I don't know what wasgoing on, but Peter Bull left in 2005 to take over PNB.
And all I was hearing that year, and in 2006 is when Sarah retired and stopped dancing.

(01:01:38):
And then that year I was just hearing about PNB and I was doing well.
I mean, I was doing all my stuff.
I had a lot of injuries up to that point.
Carla Corbson had left New York City Ballet.
and Miranda Weese as well.
left in 2005 as well.
And that's who I was partnering with, Carla, like right in the beginning.
And then Miranda as well.
Like I did, think I did Miranda's retirement with her at New York City Ballet.

(01:02:01):
And it was just one of those things where I was like, I don't, I don't know.
Like.
And he had reached to kind of his own boiling point.
More around like, he watched other people kind of get promoted around him that he had feltlike he was kind of in line with.
Right.
And I had a lot of injuries at that point and stuff like that.
But it was also like life as a dancer is short, you know, and I'm hearing about this othercompany.

(01:02:22):
I've never been anywhere else and I kind of know my trajectory here and what I'll do andall that stuff.
And, but I also wanted a family and I wanted a normal life, more of a normal life thanwhat New York City could provide.
Cause that's what you do.
You're there, you're in the building and it's the
York
apartment and like uh

(01:02:44):
Can I ask you about that too?
Like, I mean, my sense is that New York City Ballet is kind of a machine.
And Sarah, I think you even use that word.
Can you have any kind of a life when they're performing basically all year round when youfactor in Saratoga?
You know, it's your life and dancers, know, dancers are so resourceful and for the peoplethat the company works for and that it's, you know, that kind of constant drive and

(01:03:11):
constant performing, they make it work.
just, I couldn't make it work for me.
So I also ask you about, know, you were talking about there were people on the staff thatwere taking digs at you and Peter didn't know about it.
Why do you think a lot of this is allowed to perpetuate itself?
Because I mean, I've seen this with my son's trajectory through schools and they alwayssay, well, that's just him or that's just her.

(01:03:38):
it
About the person?
uh
about the people who are kind of like, they're like, oh, you know, they're autocraticgeniuses and, you know, you just have to kind of take the good with the bad to be in their
genius orbit.
And, you know, why do you think this stuff is allowed to continue?
Because it's kind of crappy to live with.

(01:04:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's such a big company.
Well, New York City Ballet was 100 and whatever dancers.
Right, but I hear about this everywhere.
in general, like in other places.
I think, you know, we're so deeply rooted in in tradition and how things are done and howthings were before me.

(01:04:23):
And, but I think probably what you were going to say is that it's in a huge environment.
It's hard to keep tabs on everybody and all the little nuances and things.
Cause you, put people in charge that are who they are.
I think at least now as people, the people in the big seats put people in charge, it's myhope that they're putting people in charge that they know have a standard of treatment of

(01:04:50):
how we treat kids and how we treat young people because that's what they are, kids andyoung people.
And I don't know why it has gone on for so long.
And I'm sorry to hear that, you know, cause I'll still.
you'll hear stories.
And I'm not just talking about like the big companies and schools and it's everywhere,right?
There is this, I don't know what it is about ballet that drives this nuanced and microlike aggressions that happen towards kids and that.

(01:05:17):
think part of it is I think you have a lot of people who have no training and how to workwith people.
At least with schools, the biggest criteria for getting a job in a company affiliatedballet school is that you had a professional career.
So great, maybe you were an amazing dancer, but you're not such an amazing person and youcertainly don't have any credentials to teach kids.

(01:05:39):
And I would say that they also bring their own careers into the factor.
Yeah, their own baggage from their careers or whatever they didn't achieve or what theyachieved and you're not respecting whatever they achieved or whatever.
I run into that a lot where I'm like, I don't care.
I just want to do what I want to do.
And I want to just bang through this.

(01:06:01):
Just work.
And that was my struggle was like that people would bring their own baggage into it.
I'm like, I don't care who you were.
I don't care.
Like this is my time.
This is what I want to do.
Give me what you can give me at this moment.
Like give me it.
And most of
must, the ones with the big egos, you must have just driven them crazy.
Yeah, like, blast.
Alive.

(01:06:21):
But again, I would be put in my place, but it was just one of those things where I waslike, I just want to work, I want to work hard and I want to just excel.
Like that's what I want to do.
I want to get out there.
I want to be on stage.
And I got along with a lot of the people there.
We have a uh non-dancer team member and early on he was like, who's the oversightcommittee?

(01:06:42):
Who do we go to, blah, blah, blah?
And we're like, that just doesn't exist.
There is not a standard or a committee that is setting.
We have AGMA, which does these agreements, but those are all really personalized to thecompanies.
depending on how much the dancers can push and how much the staff gives, there's just not,everybody's just.

(01:07:03):
off doing all their own things without any like standard of expectation.
I'm sure that imagine that's come up with people you can't.
It's come up a ton.
honestly and to be fair I mean I ballet is trying to police itself I think they just suckat it
And what we went through in our careers and all the best of and all the different hurdlesand goals and the things that we achieved.

(01:07:28):
mean, being on this side, was an amazing relief, but it was also just so amazing that wedid it.
I'm gonna say, as with all things, there are people who are lovely and just give so freelyof themselves and are so supportive.
And unfortunately, it's the ones that make more impact are the ones that are this like,because we're just human and it's the negative things that really we internalize and what

(01:07:55):
impact the day to day even more.
despite you have 30 people giving you all this support and nurturing, then you have liketwo that are beating you down.
that mat the beating down magnifies because we're human right so
But what I remember the most are the positive parts.
I never think about the negative stuff anymore.

(01:08:16):
And there was a lot of it.
And I just think about all those things that I did that were the positive parts and thepeople that actually influenced my life as a dancer at New York City Ballet and Pacific
Northwest Ballet.
But ending my schooling at San Francisco Ballet, like, Hortnay and like, Parrish Maynardand...
Yeah, those influences.
That's what I think of.
I never go back to those like really negative points in my career where I was just like,

(01:08:41):
to do that's not true.
you'd be like, what so and so thinks of this moment, right?
You kind of wonder like, but yes, I mean, no, not on the day to day.
I mean, obviously, this it was so long ago, we
Thanks
think that's part of the problem because there's no oversight committee.
I think part of the problem is because you both had such successful careers.

(01:09:04):
You tend to leave the bad and only think about the good because, you know, that's what howmemory works.
I mean, unless, you know, there's a few things that stay imprinted in and I think part ofthe problem is, is that we're not putting rules in place, learning from previous mistakes
and trying to make things better.
We're really just hoping individual schools do that for them.

(01:09:25):
So, so let me ask you.
How did you, dancing what I'm assuming is principal parts at a large ballet company, howon earth did you find time to start a company?
Bye!
Down time though, you have like long layoffs.
That's another challenge from dancing is like the summer layoff.

(01:09:46):
I don't know.
It was something that I believed in because I was wearing this product that I've made andfrom 2005 through 2010 and then it was really a necessity because the product I was
wearing in my shoes, even in my New York City Valley time, they discontinued the productand I couldn't get it.
was just like a little heel cup, drugstore heel cup.

(01:10:06):
it was like a runner's cup and it fit.
I went through so many different brands and stuff, but at that time in 2010, it wassomething that I needed to continue the rest of my career.
So was what, 27 or something?
But it was something that I really wanted.
And then I also saw, I mean, throughout my career, different principals, my friends doingthe same thing.

(01:10:29):
And then it was
Like when he says the same thing, like hacking up.
they have to do solving their own injury issues and that's
Just to back up, had really debilitating plantar fasciitis and was out at City Ballet.
The doctor did the procedure, it didn't really work, and the doctor was basically like,you just got to go find something and put it in your shoe.

(01:10:50):
So he found that heel cup and he wore that.
Yeah, my first show in them was Peter Martin's From Me and Juliet.
it was just those things was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.
I have like all this support.
And then I also have this cushion and shock absorption.
But in 2010, I was like, oh gosh, what am I going to do?
I have one of these left, you one pair.
And then I just started going down like into the streets of Seattle to the cobblers andtrying to find a way to build this thing.

(01:11:16):
Oh, really?
Were there were cobblers?
You couldn't just stick it in the shoe.
was like, how do we combine it?
Which meant he had to make a whole.
Do yeah.
it started where everyone was like, you could just like put it in and like put a piece ofpad.
was like, well, that's not really what I'm thinking.
My idea.
Cause I was sketch everything and I would do all this stuff.
And this is from 2010 through 2013.

(01:11:37):
I've just kind of prototype developing with orthotic makers, cobblers, seamstress andtrying to create this shoe.
duct taped his foot into like a giant last.
uh
out how to build it and then in 2013 I incorporated but also filed for my patents.
Okay, wait, I want to stop you right there for a second.
How did you know to file for patents?

(01:11:58):
Did you have like mentors that you were working with or were you just
bunch of mentors, but it was just one of those things where I started when I incorporated,I incorporated with Horkins Cooey and that team was like, okay, you need to do this and
kind of gave me some advice because they were on the board at the VEC Northwest Ballet.
And then they would give me mentors to go talk to and all that stuff.

(01:12:20):
And I think some of them mentioned it, but I was like, I was already saying like, Ialready am in the process of the patenting process.
So they helped you with the filings and all the legal stuff?
Yeah.
Perkins, not the mentors.
They were just more like, you should file.
And I was like, oh, already done.
know, like already did it.
And then in 2014, was the first time I went to China and actually went to factory and satdown with engineers and all of that stuff.

(01:12:50):
And it was actually a friend of mine, her husband that owns a Canadian manufacturingcompany.
was one of my partners.
That's the thing about ballet, everybody goes off and does cool things and then that'syour network.
Yeah.
And he, I'd like presented it to him and showed him the prototype.

(01:13:11):
And I was like, this is what I'm doing.
And he was like, cool.
And I was like, I wanted him to just be like, I'll take it and we'll just go to town.
You know, it was more like, why don't you come with me and get the reality of what this isgoing to be like, you know, cause I didn't have a business plan.
didn't have anything written yet.
I just had sketches and a prototype.
And at this point, he's just using his own money really to do all these little things.

(01:13:34):
Because it's like hundreds of dollars a year, a thousand a year.
wasn't really like...
Yeah, was thousands of dollars.
But I went to China for the first time and I'm with this team and we're going everywhere.
And it is the biggest reality check ever that I was so unprepared.

(01:13:55):
And I get there and I'm just having all these sketches and I have like a little likebusiness plan that I wrote that was just nothing.
And then they're like, okay, what do want us to do with this?
And that's pretty much where it was.
And then I worked with them.
from that point in China for probably the next seven months trying to like build stuff.
And it was just not going well.
And then we got factories in Pakistan and then factories into Dominican Republic andworked prototyping, prototyping, and it was just not working.

(01:14:23):
then finally, so from 2014, it oh wasn't what I wanted it to be.
They couldn't build it.
They couldn't plead it.
They couldn't do all these different.
These people weren't ballot were any of
No, sneakers and different kind of ballet flats, which is not a ballet shoe or a slipper.

(01:14:43):
You know, it's about...
Like you know like what women wear on the
Yeah, yes.
They would send these back.
So it was all via mail.
So they would like send you a prototype.
You'd put it on and be like, this is not right.
You need to fix X, Y, Z.
So it's just series after series after series.
I remember that being so hard because I'd be like, you just need to like be there for likea week, right?

(01:15:04):
But those are the things that need big money.
But even being there for a week, it's all trial and error because it was something thatwas never created.
And this was all an idea of what I thought would be the best way to build this thing.
And in 2017, I kind of went on my own now.
This is the first time I went to China by myself.
And I went to Shanghai, met with this owner of this factory and then took a bullet trainlike six hours into China somewhere.

(01:15:30):
I don't even remember where I went.
I prayed and sat with them and I was sitting with all these engineers just by myself, notranslators or anything.
And the first thing that they said is like, we can't build this.
I'm like, why am I here?
Why did they say they couldn't build it?
No, because of the way I wanted it.
Because I wanted the technology for the whole shoe to be built around the technology andnot just slapped in.

(01:15:53):
Because the dancer's gonna look at it and they're gonna be like, this is such a...
with the way that we built it, we incorporated everything inside, all of the material.
It's all built around it.
needed to match the patent at this time because the patent was filed a certain way, right?
Like you had already, like the
and no, because it's the padding.
Yeah, we have very vague language.

(01:16:15):
It's like all there.
But it was the design that I thought would work and I would not divert from that.
And I was like, if you can't build it, then there's no point in being here.
Right.
And so then they're like, let us go have a meeting and like an hour like screen matchbetween all these engineers.
And I'm just sitting there like, my gosh, like what am I doing here?

(01:16:36):
Out in the middle.
self doubt.
But still, I'm sure, like, it-
Yeah, but then they came back to the table and they were like, okay, we'll do it, youknow, and we'll start doing it.
And then we started building more prototyping and that lasted from 2017 through 2019 ofjust prototyping again through via mail and then tweaking and all that stuff.

(01:16:57):
But it all came back to that it wasn't good enough for what I wanted.
And then in 2019, I, well, COVID happened and it shut down China and
It was like 2019, 2020, and they lost their engineers.
like all this stuff happened.

(01:17:18):
And it was probably the tariffs, actually the first round of tariffs in 2019 that were thebig thing that kind of steered me away from China.
Cause I was like, I don't want this market.
And it's like, tried to build it in the United States.
It wasn't possible.
There's no kind of manufacturing like that in the United States.
We didn't have money to build our own factory.
Yeah, but like capital races and stuff.

(01:17:39):
I took my first capital round in 2016.
Individuals.
So it's an angel round.
In 2016, I did my first round to fund going to China by myself and going around.
then from that moment in 2019, I was at a place where I was like, oh my gosh, this is solong now.

(01:18:00):
It's been
to almost 10 years of like just prototyping.
I have bags and bags and bro.
I mean, I think everybody at this point was like, if we hear Seth talk about the shoeanymore.
mean, I think I'm remembering all this stuff, but I think there was I just left him to hisown devices for all this whole time.
Like sometimes he'd bounce stuff off me.

(01:18:21):
like very I really did nothing in this period for him other than to occasionally be like,what's plan B?
But if you know Seth, once he has set his mind to something, there is no diverting him.
So there was no plan B.
don't know, I knew I could do it.
but in 2019, another hurdle came, which was the tariffs and then getting out of China andthey lost all their engineers and I didn't want to start us with like square one.

(01:18:47):
And I went to kind of a 3PL and place that could connect me with different manufacturing.
Cause I went through Alibaba, you name it.
I was researching contact and factories, manufacturing, trying to get everything I could.
And finally just hit a breaking point where it's like, I need help.
So I
a logistics team, a prototype development, they put me in contact with a manufacturer inThailand.

(01:19:12):
And then COVID happened, of course.
And then everything shuts down.
But right before COVID, I actually had another burnout where they connected me with abigger brand, a ballet brand.
And I met them in New York, and they were going to license the whole thing.
hire me and everything like that.

(01:19:32):
And a week later, COVID happened.
And I told them, was like, well, I'm going full throttle.
I'm going all the way.
And so during COVID, that's what I did.
I just like grinded it out and made this product throughout COVID.
then-
He says that in retrospect he was glad the thing with the other brand that shall not benamed because then it just would have been this brand with a shoe by him instead of...

(01:20:00):
That would have been maybe they wouldn't just like, and like, just put it away.
Are you guys both at this point?
Yeah.
Well, no, it's COVID, so we're just at home.
Well, sure, sure,
but like pre up until.
uh
we're still dancing.
you doing that?
Like, I mean, I know principal dancers have a little bit more flexibility, but that'sstill like that's two full-time jobs.

(01:20:25):
your
Also, new parents.
It was very rough.
And then me leaving for these big trips and stuff like that for a week or two weeks orwhatever I would take to go travel and try to find this stuff.
It was really rough.
And then also the belief in it wasn't really there either, which was a hard part as well.
For me, you saying I didn't believe in it?

(01:20:47):
Yeah, and just like of this thing that I've just like dreaming of like that this issomething that I could achieve that I'm going to change the way that people think about a
ballet shoe and a ballet flat like this is something that I could do.
And that was a question that always came up to me while I was doing it like what am Idoing?
Why am I wasting my time?
And I almost stopped this whole thing, went to go to my GED and all this stuff and go backto school and go to college and all this.

(01:21:09):
And I was like, this is just a pipe dream.
Like it's not going to happen.
However.
when I was guesting in New York and all this stuff, and I was at a donor dinner after aNew York thing, and I was at a table, and one of the donors asked me, what am I doing?
What do you think you're gonna do after your career?
And I just started talking about the shoe and all that stuff, and no interest at thetable, like none at this table.

(01:21:34):
Like they were just looking at me like, okay, we don't care.
Like we don't care.
And I was 25 at the time, I think, so.
This is going a little bit further back and what pushed me to really continue to do this.
Okay, wait, so what was your reaction?
Were you like, wait a minute, this is a brilliant idea.
What's wrong with you?
It's just the way it is.
Like we're just, you're just trying to talk to donors and do your part as the answer.

(01:21:56):
And I was really like trying to entreat them into this whole thing and nobody cared.
None.
Except for one gentleman at a different table.
And he came over and he was like, Hey, I heard your conversation over here.
Can I pull up my chair and we can talk.
eh
I was like, yeah, let's talk.
And I just started talking about this idea.

(01:22:18):
And this is before like a lot of this was created.
And it was 2012, like even before I incorporated.
And he was just like, I told him the story, what I've done, all that stuff.
And he was like, keep doing it.
You know, this is something that I think that you'll be able to have later on in yourcareer and you might be able to affect other people.

(01:22:39):
And the next time I see you, I want to hear more about it.
So.
I laughed and I was like, yeah, okay, like maybe, maybe he'll keep interest there.
And then the next time I came back to New York for I think Romeo and Juliet or somethinglike that at City Center, I get off stage with Carla after we're done performing and like
I'm still sweating, huffing and puffing after the ballet's finished.

(01:23:02):
mean, he walks in the door with Peter Boal and the first thing out of his mouth is how'sthe shoe going?
You know?
great
I
Yeah.
And that was the thing was like, my gosh, like this is something that I need to be doing.
So it really like turned that on for me.
And from that moment forward, I was just like, I'm doing this.

(01:23:22):
And, and they, and him and his wife are always very backing of, of me, unfortunately sincethen, but yeah, it was just one of those things that sparked like that.
actually have something here and I'm not just, it's not a pipe train that I could actuallymake a difference.
You always need a little bit of wind behind your your sails.
Right?
mean, everyone has those inflection points of just like I needed a little bit of whatever,right?

(01:23:47):
I mean, even Jeff Bezos says his parents give him a big influx of cash when he was goingbankrupt.
And I have to be honest, I wish that she was available when Abby was younger.
She wore heel cups and orthotics in her shoes for the longest time because her feet wereflat and she had terrible plantar fasciitis and inflamed growth plates.
And
What I see a lot when I go out and before that I see BBYB in New York.

(01:24:12):
And it's just so fun for me, for students to come up to me and be like, this is what I'mdoing.
Like this is what I've been doing.
orthotic or Dr.
Scholl's like sewn into the shoe.
And this is still like in 2023 relaunched for all those years and in April and havingthose, those points of those students coming to me, I'm like, I am onto something here.

(01:24:35):
When we launched, I got an email from a mom whose kiddo was at P &B.
she was like, one of Maria's teachers mentioned that you have a shoe.
know, my daughter hasn't been able to finish class in four months.
And so I, you we didn't know what we were doing when the business actually launched, but Iwas like, Seth, you gotta get to P &B and fit this kiddo.

(01:24:58):
He did.
And the mom followed up.
like a few days later and was like, finished class.
You know, she literally hadn't jumped in months.
so to have that first anecdotal piece of feedback was just pretty mind blowing.
And then those kinds of things that trickle in are just really incredible.
Cause running your business day to day and all the logistics and all the stuff.

(01:25:21):
mean, those are the things that when you have somebody
And with the launch in 23...
Yeah, we want to talk about
all of it.
mean, you guys started
from scratch.
It's really exciting.
And we want more parents to know about it because so many people are like, my kid has feetproblems.

(01:25:43):
ah
Parents get it.
I think that they get that concept of that.
There's really nothing between my kiddo and the dance floor.
if I can give them some...
I wore orthotics because I pronated and my mom made me and the doctor made me putorthotics in my shoes and wear them in ballet.
And I was like, I literally can't point my foot.
They're like straight cardboard.

(01:26:04):
It's like, what are we doing here?
But for parents, for protecting their...
child's body from a young age is really important because for kids it takes a much longertime to realize that they're not totally unsusceptible to injury or pain, right?
Because you just think you're, you know, unstoppable.
You think you're immortal when you're this age.
And just because you don't have maybe they're a little flat, maybe pronate or whateverdoesn't mean you can't do ballet.

(01:26:29):
It just means you need tools to help you.
mean, I can't tell you how many different ways I taped her feet and we put heel cups andall the things in there to try to do some shock absorption.
So the fact that you guys have it in a shoe is incredible.
Okay.
So how did you go from prototype to actually really launching and getting this off theground?

(01:26:50):
So in 2019 we went to Thailand and they are specialists around this.
So half around Valley Shoes and Valley Street Manufacturing, the way it's done, thecraftsmanship there and they
I have a question.
Are a lot of um other manufacturers using factories in Thailand?
Like is that like ground zero for balance?

(01:27:11):
know that.
I didn't know that until...
at one point too, because it was being used by another ballet.
She ran, they got wind of us inventing a new product.
So we got the boot.
That was another roadblock.
yeah, and our factory now is actually an old Nike factory, too, which is cool.
It really
when I went, was really fun because half the team, like the engineers are Nike days andthen half the team is they're either engineers that have worked with a different parachute

(01:27:38):
manufacturer or whatever.
And it's like combining these two different aspects of manufacturing together to buildthis thing.
So it's a lot of specialists around this helped build it and make it what it is now.
But it was cool going to Thailand and I picked every single part into every manufacturer,the way they make leather, every single part of this, I chose color, like how it's made,

(01:28:02):
where we can go from here, like environmental friendly stuff or whatever.
It was just so fascinating to go to all the different places because I didn't really knowbeing on the palace side of it and on the stage, like I would take shoes and I'd be like,
oh, this is terrible.
I'm just gonna throw it out.
And now that I'm on this side of it, it's just such like a craftsmanship and how manypeople actually touch one pair of shoes is

(01:28:23):
always think of the point shoes as being the thing that's handmade.
But our shoes are actually handmade.
so anyway, launch happened in 2023.
And the big plan was Seth took the shoes to New York City and did fittings on a lot of thebig companies there.
out shoes.
And then I was back.
So he had to have this marketing team in place.

(01:28:47):
When you say team, were they your friends?
Like how did that work?
No, he had partnered with a local firm in Seattle that was their idea was they were goingto help launch the product, the marketing behind it.
But for some reason, I got roped into the social media aspect.
So I had access.
Our website was barely set up.

(01:29:10):
So I had access to the email.
That's off in New York.
I'm posting on social, some stuff.
When we start to get emails from resellers like, can I see your, you know, your buy book?
Can I, can I have a list of products?
Like, can you let me know what your wholesale?
And I'm asking Seth, okay, can I get this stuff?
And he's like, we don't have that stuff.

(01:29:35):
It's my sh-
I don't even...
was very, we weren't prepared for how this actually got like right over.
power of social media, the power of our connections and contacts in the ballet world, thepower of Ashley Bowder, know, putting on her shoe and jumping up and down and there's
absorption in my ballet shoe now and what kind of spiral effect that has.

(01:29:59):
So we opened for pre-order too.
So there was, it was only pre-order and there was just so much.
are so many loosens at that point.
Who's controlling the website.
All that stuff.
And long story short, I terminated the partnership with the marketing team and then wewere with nobody.

(01:30:25):
And then I was like, Sarah, it could be everything now on that side.
Bye.
Here are all of your hats.
I had a one year old too.
I was literally just alone with a one year old, like trying to field all these reselleremails.
I think Sarah saw that this is something that could be huge for us and and then seeing thereaction of dancers actually putting it on and so with the first shoe or Orza Pro 1 I only

(01:30:54):
did a medium-sized run-up width so it didn't fit everyone but you could you couldexperience the technology in it and it was more to see if there's a market for this and if
dancers would be interested in trying this and that's why I went to New York City Ballet,DTH, ABT
Juilliard, SFB, mean, all of my networking that I know I reached out to and I was like,hey, this is what's happening, I'm coming and I'm just gonna give free shoes to everyone.

(01:31:19):
Okay, can I just ask you a question about that?
Because one of the things we talk to parents about all the time is how important yournetwork is from a fairly young age.
Like the people that you were reaching out to, how old were you when you met a lot ofthem?
Some of them like 12.
And I think in another thing is it's just a reminder to treat people well too.

(01:31:43):
Right.
I think all of this wouldn't have been possible if people were such a jerk.
Like, you know, like I think it's the power of positive relationships and like as for ourbusiness now, transparency, transparency and honesty and just generally respecting
everybody's time and space and stuff is such an important component of

(01:32:05):
how we approach our business and partnerships and stuff.
And yeah, you never, and I don't wanna say like, you never know who you're gonna need, butwhat those kinds of friendships and those mutual respect from people.
it was also learning over the last, I mean, it was over a decade of doing this that thatlike afraid part of me and asking for help.

(01:32:29):
Yeah.
That's a hard.
yeah, because if we're lost, will like not, well now we have Google, but like he's not theperson to ask for help.
So I think that's been a
Well, and it's hard because everybody's time is valuable.
I mean, I've worked in uh a lot of startups in my career.
And you really have to kind of bootstrap it.
And at least in the early days, we were doing a lot where we were asking for things forfree.

(01:32:55):
And you're calling on your network to like, hey, will you help me with search engineoptimization?
Because I don't really know what I'm doing.
do you have any extra furniture that we can put in our office because we don't havechairs?
And so it's so important because when you have those relationships, people want to helpyou.
They want you to be successful.

(01:33:15):
And I think it's, at the same time, it is really hard to ask for help.
Yeah, but that's something that I learned to get over, you know, over this 10 years ofgoing to my mentors or to my investors, my current investors asking for help or any kind
of connection to other people that have some experience in this world or a world likethis, know, because shoe manufacturing and retail and yeah.

(01:33:39):
really, I think like now that we're talking about it, I think we've really leaned intolearning from people.
Like, and I think that's, that's, you know, reflective of being dancers.
You're constantly in a state of learning and learning from others and getting better.
So anytime somebody is offering us insight or, know, information, we just are likesponges, soaking it up versus like, we know how to do it.

(01:34:01):
Let's just do it our way.
We really are just always open to hearing about the way this new
area of the ballet world works because it's very it's very different.
And taking what we've learned or like what I've learned in my career, like the discipline,the goals I set, all those different factors that come from being a dancer and like what I

(01:34:25):
did as a dancer is what I take and I do in my business.
My day to day is the same things.
It's the same kind of, set my goals.
say what I need to do, what needs to get done.
Because I when Seth was forging this path for him for us, you know my experience workingfor the jewelry designer I was like owning your own business You are the only person to

(01:34:48):
hold yourself accountable Riley you have to be Nobody's gonna do others the big otherstuff for you You have to be you know, the one to show up all this stuff.
Like it's really hard, especially
The one of the good things about dance is like, you're just doing what you're told andthen you can, and you perform it and it's what you know.

(01:35:10):
And then when you enter a different realm and you have to be self-motivated, like it's alot of work.
It's a lot of pressure and it's not for everybody.
Cause some people just want to show up at work, do their job and then leave and go home.
And that's not what owning your own business is.
no, it's 24-7.
is accountable.
can I ask you, prototype, you had your or the one pro you said, right?

(01:35:32):
You took it to all your comp, all your friends in the different companies?
What was the back?
And then how did you take that?
Like you said, you learn from people, your sponges, you pull all of that.
And then how did you
Grow it.
Well, the reaction was incredible.
And like we had our pre-orders and it was just like things were going off the shelf.

(01:35:54):
We're getting all this social media attention and dancers would give me feedback and I'dsay, yep, I totally know what you're talking
very not afraid to get, especially because we went right to the pro level.
I mean, he designed the shoe for male pro dancers because that's what he was.
And then what we didn't anticipate was like the female interest, even though I guess, youknow, because where we were in our careers as he was building this, women were always just

(01:36:19):
in pointe shoes.
Like you'd wear the ballet shoes for like bar or, you know, for some things, but it was sofocused on
his sector, like male pro dancers.
And then what we realized, like as, you know, we're figuring so much stuff out, how muchinterest there was from female dancers, from dance students.
And then, yes, and we were getting, the Orza Pro One was built on Seth's foot.

(01:36:42):
It a really wide, meaty foot.
And so the original Orza Pro One, people needed a narrow.
Some people actually needed a wide.
We needed different colors.
There were tweaks needed just for the overall fit.
There was...
For on some dancers, there was like kind of a bagginess in the arch.
We wanted a lower vamp.
We wanted to tweak where the elastics were.
So absolutely.
Like it was never what I found so beautiful about staff is like when we would getfeedback, whether it was from email from a customer or he'd go, yeah, okay.

(01:37:13):
Maybe they're right.
Let's look at that.
Right.
And so we really quickly in the terms of time, we turned around the second model that maytook into account a lot of this
It was almost immediately, like we, by the time actual shoes went out, we were already inthe process of creating the next shoe.

(01:37:33):
oh
What was the biggest criticism that you were getting on your first model?
Like pardon?
Sorry.
we needed to have more sizes like narrows people are like I need a narrow
And like the fit of the shoe, like if it fit your foot, it fit your foot.
If you had a narrow foot, it wouldn't fit.
I have a question, because you guys have a ton of padding in your shoe.

(01:37:56):
That's a really different feeling for dancers versus hitting the floor with just a pieceof cloth under their foot.
Did you hear a lot about I had to relearn how to feel the floor or any of that?
So I'm in the customer service seat now, so I get all the feedback.
And so the biggest thing for people when they're trying on the shoe and getting accustomedto the shoe is that it starts out feeling stiff.

(01:38:20):
And that's because, especially in the toe portion, the metatarsal portion, there is a lotof padding and because we're not using a stretch canvas, which we hear from people a lot
because people are used to this stretch canvas, the shoe softens and molds to your footwith wear and then it lasts.
longer than a traditional shoe and it has to be structured to hold all the technology.

(01:38:41):
I chose all these materials on purpose.
We went down the stretch campus route, we went down all these different roads, I've trieddifferent padding, different thicknesses, different ways to build it, all that stuff and
really with the trial and error process is what has come to making the shoe the way it is.

(01:39:02):
to circle back to your question about getting, because I'll ask dancers, because we're notdancing anymore, but the feeling the floor component, I mean, you are with the heel cup
elevated from the floor, but you are still very much connected to the floor.
And really the biggest thing is like when it's softening, you're landing.
I did teach in them for about a year and I definitely did not feel disconnected to thefloor.

(01:39:26):
So we don't hear it.
Right away, like when I was just in Toronto at National Ballet School and watching thekids face, like as they put it on and because they're a lot of students and pros are very
skeptical of like what this is.
They're like a padding and a shoe.
It's going to be this bulky thing.

(01:39:46):
And then they put it on.
It's super light and it just kind of conforms to your foot.
And then you're on like a cloud.
And that's the whole point behind it that you
actually just get used to it and attimate to wearing it and then you won't notice itanymore.
people do get acclimated, know, people are like, I can never wear regular shoe again, butyou do have to give it that chance for a lot of people, right?

(01:40:10):
either you've got the people that are putting it on and like, my gosh, sold likeinstantaneously, I get it.
Like Giovanni Ferrellani at New York City Ballet, he was like, I tried it.
And then I was like, I don't know.
And then he went back.
and tried it again and he hasn't stopped wearing them.
So it does take a bit of like commitment to like, let me give this a real go.
And from time to time, like with customer service, I'll get, if I see a return that'slike, we have the options, know, are you returning?

(01:40:36):
Cause it's too small, too long or is the technology is not for me.
If I get a reason that's not just about fit, I'll reach out and say like, you know, whatis your experience?
Like, let's talk through that.
And sometimes I'll say, just keep the shoes, break them in.
If in four weeks you still don't love him, I'll give you a refund.
And I don't do that a lot.
I don't think he knows that I do that.

(01:40:57):
And I really never, if I go that kind of risky route, I don't get people giving me thereturn.
It's just taking that leap of like, I put this on my foot, it feels so different, it feelsstiff, break it in, give it.
We have reviews on our website and like the recent one, this.
male dancer was like, took me two weeks to break in, but once I did, like, I don't thinkI'll buy other shoes.

(01:41:20):
So it, say it's more like a point shoe where it has a break in period.
just, it really is.
um
the materials because of the price point and all of that.
It's so it lasts like I couldn't make something that was last a couple of days.
know, whole like during COVID that's what I was doing.

(01:41:41):
So I was talking with the ballet shoe department, San Francisco Ballet, PMB, what theybuy, what they don't buy, what price points, all those things using that kind of data to
build this out as well.
Like what professionals are looking for professional companies are willing to spend.
all of that stuff and how long these shoes need to last were a big factor.

(01:42:02):
So, and then going back to the Orza Pro 1, we use all that feedback from the launch tostart creating a lower vamp, the lower sides, a lighter weight canvas a bit, taking a
layer out of the front to make it a little bit more malleable.
Like all these different things that dancers were giving us feedback about, I took to mymanufacturer.

(01:42:24):
We love it.
Yeah.
for the 2.0.
we really do like, get, well, right now, the thing that we don't have is I get asked aboutlike a vegan model and the stretch canvas.
Those are things that people ask about, but we really do love feedback.
I mean, I think, and then since that's being dancers at heart, we're just like, tell ushow we did.

(01:42:45):
Like, tell us what you should do.
Tell us what you need.
So I think that lends itself to this.
I think as business owners and with a product, especially a brand new product, you have tobe open to listening to people.
As we grow and make more products, like we're already in Devo for other things and stufflike that, it's all this feedback comes into play.
know, I mean, we'll take it to our manufacturers, say, can we do this?

(01:43:06):
Can we use this kind of materials?
All that kind of stuff.
And then with the patents, took eight years to get the patent, the way, of battlingexaminers.
Shoes are definitely a saturated market and everything has been done.
And I was competing with a loafer and a boot.
What does this have to do with the ballet shoe?

(01:43:27):
Somehow again.
But it was finally approved in 2020.
with that, there's a lot trust to use this pattern and the technique.
I want to put it in a jazz shoe and that know people ask us about other shoes and stuff.
we would love to do everything.
In our queue, it's all on funding and what we're doing there on the business side, becausethat's mostly what I do now is I do the business side and we have a COO that's on board

(01:43:54):
now as well that takes the operations part of it.
We have a sales manager as well that's on board and then Sarah as the CMO is the chiefmarketing officer.
I
Are they former dancers that are the other folks?
CMO of always, the Leon is not a former dancer.
We are just manufacturing world and like the retail space and that's what he of does.

(01:44:19):
He came on board probably at the end of 2023.
And we've been building out a network of reps in...
Yeah, I wanted to hear about that.
Like, because we see on social media, I see people who are repping your stuff and I'mlike, they added another one.
So, so our who he mentioned our salesperson that's he's actually our rep manager and sohe's so essentially our reps are in different geo locations across the US and they have a

(01:44:47):
full fit kit so they do pop ups they sell the ballet companies it's so he doesn't have totravel everywhere because you're
him out traveling everywhere trying to get fittings and all that stuff and it just wasn'tmoving the needle it wasn't doing enough and i can only go so many places with the amount
of time and then also the business side was suffering because i'm not there doing that and

(01:45:08):
Well, and you have little kids.
and so this was the plan.
was the
So this is just having more of myself around, because really what we want is for dancersto have an opportunity to try this.
Can I ask you another question about growing your business?
One of the hardest things about having a startup is knowing when to take your money andinvest it in growth.

(01:45:31):
And Jenny and I deal with this.
We don't make any money off this, but we have expenses.
And so we always are trying to figure out, where do we put the limited amount of revenuethat we have coming in in order to keep ourselves afloat?
How did you make those decisions where it's like, you know there's these inflectionpoints, and you have to grow in order to survive?

(01:45:52):
we just keep putting it back into the product, right?
So that's the...
I mean that's really where it ends up.
We hardly do any marketing dollars at
Yeah, our marketing budget is zero.
I can tell you that much.
Well, you've also got, I mean, when you have people like Sarah Mearns, you know, takingthese spectacularly beautiful photos, I don't know how much marketing.
Yeah, I mean the other thing that is the reality is that we are up against I guess likefour or five other brands who dominate the space who have existed for them like minimum 30

(01:46:21):
years some of them over a hundred years right and they've been able to this enter this newera of how marketing happens which is like paying influencers and they have the funds to
do that we just we don't we have not had
because we're pouring everything back into product and like we're always out of stock ofthis size or that size.
And our priority is to have the shoes available.

(01:46:44):
So that means there's not funding for marketing.
So we are kind of bulldozed over by other brands marketing tactics and the way it allworks.
I mean, we're definitely bootstrapping right now, even though we're in semifinals andwe're in our third round.
If we get this round completed, then we'll be in a much better spot.

(01:47:06):
And that's what we put to form our fuel on the marketing fire, right?
I mean, I think in, if you know, if you've heard of Orza, people are like, oh, we see youeverywhere.
You're everywhere.
have people who are like, what's, what is it?
Like there's, there's definitely just so many people that it hasn't even reached.
So.
Right, but if you can hit like dancers in schools, especially professional companies, likethey get their shoes, the dancers get their shoes for free.

(01:47:31):
So if they go and say like, these are the brands I want, to me that's like.
We get like yesterday we had a new order from a company that just reached.
Cirque is a part of our customer base.
And it's just random things that happen where the answer is like, hey, I want to try them.
then once you try us and you get the right fit is the most important part.

(01:47:55):
And that's why the sales reps exist as well.
And we just launched this try before you buy program.
you just, you know, you put three in your cart, credit card holds the amount, you know, uhit holds the amount in a freeze and then you get them, you get to try them for five days,
keep what you want, send back what you want.
only charged for one.
trying to bring that retail experience to the customer at home, because it's really hard.

(01:48:18):
We're not in that many retailers around this.
We're in a bunch, but it's not enough where we need as many dancers.
I think that every dancer could have this in their bag.
Like really, there's no reason why they wouldn't have her shoe in the bag as either justwhat they put on for bar or just having.

(01:48:38):
We hear from a lot of professional females that they just want to stand in rehearsal inthe back wearing.
then eventually they're not going to want to wear anything else.
Cause that's what my experience was with my heel cuffs.
Like I tried to go reverse after my plantar fascia was healed and I didn't have any painanymore.
And I did a show and I was like, this sucks.

(01:48:59):
Like I don't want to do this.
Like this hurts.
And then I went back into my pads and that's the same kind of thing.
Like you'll, you'll experience this different comfort and the shock absorption.
And then you'll go back and you'll be like, I don't want to feel the floor anymore.
I don't want to feel it like that.
It's not that big of a change and it's not that big of a lift for the shoe.
So are you?
finding that that personal experience is really drawing people in in terms of like, is itreally just word of mouth so much like where one dancer is wearing it in a studio or in a

(01:49:33):
company and then kids are kind of spiraling that way?
I mean, do you have shoes that fit students or are you really in the more adult market?
There's a lot of the people who listen to our podcast, they're
parents and younger dancers.
So if they're interested in your shoe, do you make a model that might fit them?
Yeah, then that.

(01:49:54):
You do!
Hold on.
The age range is from nine and-
So we go in small, in female sizes, we go as small as four and then in male we go as smallas five.
So for some students, especially now with the narrow, we can fit you in that shoe.
Yeah.
So we see like 10, 11, 12.
However, as we were about to have two different answers, our next big shoe product isdesigned, a shoe designed specifically for children.

(01:50:20):
oh is
It's in Devo.
So this is a lot.
So we have a whole medical advisory team as well and we'll build this out with them.
And like there's a lot of teams behind this.
We have our business advisors and we have our medical advisors and.
So yeah, so we, we there, we can fit kiddos in 10 and up, but the next big thing that wewant to bring on is a, is a, is a children's line.

(01:50:47):
then Jenny to the question about word of mouth, I can't tell you how many emails I get tosay, my teacher said I should check you out.
My physical therapist said I should check you out.
Somebody in my class that I said to check you out.
And then of course we have like social media stuff.
I'll get DMS and someone's like, I just saw.
Victoria, she's my favorite dancer in your shoes.
So yes, absolutely.

(01:51:08):
Like we're in the age of, you know, everybody influenced being influenced by everybodyelse.
But for me, particularly seeing those in class personal references of like saying I wearthe shoe, you should try that shoe that that's you can't like dream up a better, you know,
marketing tactic than just pure dancer would.

(01:51:29):
So now that you've gotten parents super, super excited and dancers excited about yourshoe, where can they find you?
So they'll want to come to our website.
So we do have a few resellers, but we are really selling primarily e-commerce and we makeit super easy.
If they want to send an email about sizing, they're going to hear directly from me.
So I'm like the fit specialist and we have size charts.

(01:51:51):
And then I do, I'd say like 60 % of what I do is working back and forth via email.
Sometimes I jump on phone calls to talk through fit.
Um, and then, you know,
First one doesn't fit, we do exchanges, we really try to streamline the process to make itas easy as possible for people to order from.
And the website is orzabrand.com if you want to come to that.

(01:52:13):
And then to you guys.
pop-up fits?
mean, I hear you saying like you've gone to San Francisco and, you know, National Balletof Canada and all of that stuff.
find out about your pop-ups if they want to try them in person.
Yeah, online as well.
have a whole pop up page where you'll see all the pop ups that we're doing in the mostnear time.
And also there's a retailer page as well.

(01:52:34):
So you can find what retailers were in and then in a location near you, can go try that.
parents, if they have kiddos at a summer program, you know, they should feel free to reachout and ask the summer program, what resellers or what brands are coming, is yours are
coming.
Cause that always helps spark interest.
then people reach out to us.
So some of the events on our website are private events because they're at summer programsor at different locations like that.

(01:52:58):
But yes, we are trying to have reps and fittings at a lot of the summer intensives thissummer.
Seth, thank you so much for joining us today.
This has been a lovely conversation.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

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Sarah & Seth Orza: Ballet Careers and Creating Orza Ballet Shoes

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal