July 9, 2025 • 49 mins
In this conversation, Sarah Wroth discusses the current state of the ballet program at Indiana University, addressing concerns about state mandates and program restructuring. She emphasizes the strong support from the community and alumni, clarifies the differences between degree options, and reassures that current students will not be affected by changes. The conversation also highlights the importance of clear communication and the program's commitment to preparing students for successful careers in dance.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Sarah, thank you so much for coming on.
I know we have a lot to talk about.
Yeah, I'm super pleased to be here on Ballet Help Desk.
Thank you again, Brett and Jenny.
So uh what's going on at Indiana?
mean, people are like, there's hair on fire all over the place.
Now, it's been exciting times for us.
I will say that the outpouring of support that we've received from alumni, from parents,from friends, from stagers, from choreographers who have reached out saying, we will write
(00:32):
letters, we will come and defend you has been just absolutely incredible and so um heartkindling to feel that support.
There are a lot of programs at IU that
would need that support and that fight, we are not one of them.
Ballet at the Jacobs School of Music is a highly valued degree.
(00:56):
We are successful.
We are strong.
We make majors who get jobs.
And that is what, that's the bar that higher education is facing really right now is like,can you...
make individuals who will get jobs and our dancers do that.
We are a program that will continue on at Indiana University.
(01:17):
We do not have to panic.
No one has to panic surrounding our ballet department right now.
We have an exciting year ahead, uh incredible ballets.
We have two successful degree programs.
One has undergone scrutiny through the state for the number of graduates.
(01:39):
We have a bachelors of science in ballet, uh a bigger part in bachelors of science with anoutside field um that is in music.
So it falls under this larger degree of music at the Jacobs School Music and yields theseamazing numbers of graduates because of that number.
All of the dancers that participate in that outside field program get to choose any majorat Indiana University, this amazing R1 institution.
(02:08):
and choose a secondary field of study.
And what that does is provide you an off-ramp to your career, gives you maybe a second jobto supplement your income in that first job position you get straight out of graduating.
um Those BSOF majors will undergo no change.
(02:29):
There's a second degree.
All of these dancers take class with the BSOF dancers, the Bachelors of Science in Balletdegree.
We generally have a handful of majors, I would say two or three, um that graduate withthat degree.
And when you put a graduating class of 15 as a mandatory requirement, that degree doesn'tquite fit what the state has designed.
(02:57):
We are looking at restructuring that program.
It's largely been utilized by dancers who are pairing it with a second degree.
um
Our entire administrative team knows that that process needs to be provided for.
And that's where we're looking at how we can merge to make dance at Indiana University aneven stronger entity.
(03:20):
But all students will be provided for.
And another thing I really need to say too is that no dancers currently enrolled or firstyear dancers coming in in the fall are impacted by this at all.
They get to join.
and proceed as if none of this uh restructuring of the second degree was happening.
(03:41):
uh They can choose to be part of it if they wish, but they don't have to.
So can we back up a little bit?
What is happening with the, like, what's the mandate from the state?
if we don't live in Indiana, like, we haven't heard anything about this, but like, I'dlove to hear more about like what they're saying to the university overall, and then kind
(04:02):
of how it's impacting you and um any future students looking at the Ballet Program.
Yeah, it's, well, really the mandate is 15 graduates per year for a degree program tomaintain its status.
And this happened through a change through the Indiana state government this past spring.
(04:27):
And that mandate really, like I said, will not affect our program.
The curriculum is staying the same, the performance venues, the performance content,everything that we're providing for our dancers is staying exactly the same.
The only thing it changes is, as I mentioned, that one degree program that under itsdescription currently doesn't fit that graduating number.
(04:49):
We're looking for how we can provide for students that don't want to get the Bachelor's ofScience with an outside field for the future.
So what you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is that if you want to go to Indianaand only major in ballet, that might be a challenge going forward.
No, not at all.
We're changing the current paradigm.
(05:11):
The hope is that it'll either be a BS degree in dance or a BFA degree in dance.
We're finalizing that process and not everyone that's playing the planning game for that,for our future at the Jacobs School of Music has weighed in.
So there's a little bit of a finalization process, but the hope is it will be a BFA indance with different tracks.
(05:34):
or a BS degree in dance with different tracks.
And we're working that out with our administration.
But there will be, there is no story with this that ends with something is eliminated.
Nothing is being eliminated.
One thing has to change.
Are they means testing, these majors?
(05:55):
Like you mentioned something earlier about like our graduates get jobs.
Is there some sort of means test that the state's putting into the university to where youhave to prove that your graduates are getting jobs?
No, but I think all of this work with higher education, all of the scrutiny andself-assessment of higher education is making sure that the value of the investment is
(06:17):
genuine.
And I think that's where all of these changes come from.
You can assess them in different ways, but I think looking at oneself and making sureyou're being effective is a really, really important thing that we should all be doing.
oh
Every college program should be doing that.
And we are doing that as a part of this larger imposed scrutiny, but it's important.
(06:41):
ah There is no metric.
It's just my own sort of values assessment of where this is coming from.
There's nothing like a reporting system or a bar we have to hit.
But I do think that's what the heart of this is, is like, are you an effective educationprogram that prepares students for the future?
And the answer for that for me is yes, but how can we can be even better?
(07:06):
Right, so can I ask you, will this change the number of students that you admit per yearso then you can hit that quota?
Great question, no.
um As I mentioned before, largely with the BSOF, those numbers fall into numbers.
mean, it sounds so weird to talk about numbers in the arts.
It kind of like really hurts my soul, but I feel like we all have to be prudent.
(07:30):
The number of graduates that would participate in the BSOF fall under this larger umbrellaum that goes through the Jacobs School of Music, because it's a bachelor's of science in
music, ballet concentration with an outside field.
And then um the other group just needs to find an umbrella.
And that's what the administration is committed to is finding an umbrella for those BSstudents who are currently majors in just ballet, even though they're usually double
(08:00):
majoring in something else as well.
uh Number of students will say the same.
Everything about the success of this program.
is staying the same.
The incredible number of students we have, we had 75 majors at one point last year in ourstudios dancing together.
That's high for us.
(08:21):
A happier number is around 65, 63.
And we are getting closer to that number next year.
We intentionally really had a selective admissions process this past spring.
to yield a smaller incoming class.
I do not foresee that for next year.
All the numbers will be exactly the same as they've always been in previous years for nextfall and ongoing into the future.
(08:48):
So like 15 or 20 per class.
Yes, so we usually start and I know this is one of uh the questions we wanted to speak of,the usually we have about 250 apply.
We usually accept around 100 through that initial pre screening process that has to happenby November 1st for the best scholarship offers.
(09:10):
That's a hot tip.
Get it all done by November 1st.
They can choose one of three in-person audition dates once they're passed through thepre-screening process.
Usually about 100 make it to that place.
And then in a normal year, we accept about 36.
And that yields the class of 18 to 20, as you mentioned, Jenny.
(09:31):
This past year, we admitted somewhere closer to 28 to.
do your admission on a rolling basis?
Um, yes, we, we, it we, we begin in that January phase of looking at dancers, and it'salways been in the past, like, if we like somebody, we take somebody.
(09:53):
And that's always just naturally yielded the correct number.
It was only this last spring where we kind of held some off and, and waited until we had afinal decision on our number because we were trying to
I feel like if you have too many majors, you can't learn everyone's story.
And if you can't learn everyone's story and know what people need to work on, it becomesan in-personal experience.
(10:18):
And here we're very much about that student-teacher ratio, the ability for us all to helpeveryone be nurtured and become their best self.
uh really needing to have the appropriate number for our studios and our faculty is reallyimportant to us.
So can I ask you something, just peel back a little bit about what you talked about beforewith the two different majors.
(10:43):
What's the difference between the Bachelor of Science in music with a ballet concentrationand a BFA?
Is it like a completely separate program track that people would choose or then why isn'teveryone just under that umbrella?
yes and no.
So they take all of the same ballet courses.
(11:06):
The heart of the degree in ballet is the same.
And right now it's currently, just to clarify, is a BS in ballet or a BSOF, which is aBachelor of Science with an outside field.
Those dancers all take the same core ballet courses.
They take
There are five or six credit hours of our ballet major that happens from 1115 to 545 everyday.
(11:28):
They're all in the same class together.
um They take the same ballet pedagogy requirements, the same conditioning for the balletbody, ballet history, anatomy, all of those great things are all blended together and
those are all the same uh core content.
It's just the ballet BSOF.
has 27 credits in an external field of their choice through Indiana University.
(11:55):
And the Ballet Bachelor's of Science track has uh music courses, additional physicaleducation courses that are part of more of elective content where they are fueling the
musical element of their degree and the study of their physical selves, but it doesn'thave to do with a concentrated academic area.
(12:16):
if that makes sense, but all of the like ballet elements, they're all together, they'reall unified, they're all in one space.
It's like a uh one big happy family of ballet study.
It's just then you choose how that branch is.
And as I mentioned before, historically, the ballet only branch, we've had some amazingstories of dancers, you know, here really to get their degree.
(12:40):
um A dancer who performed professionally for...
eight years prior to coming to this school.
She owns a shop on the square here in Bloomington and she became a ballet major.
She was just a, not just, but she was a ballet bachelor's of science major.
um And then we have dancers a lot of the times who choose the ballet only track to pairwith a second degree from the Kelly School of Business.
(13:06):
because of the way the class times and flexibility fits together, which is why we need topreserve that track for the future.
Because otherwise we could just say, let's get rid of that track.
The majority of people do the BSOF.
Let's just keep that.
But we want to make the track for the ballet only educated dancer here um with theunderstanding that's a science.
(13:29):
It's a study.
It's a practice that really deserves a credential.
um
eh in mind as we plan for the future.
It sounds like, you know, from the perspective of a student, like Jenny and I both justhad kids graduate from college in May.
And so, you you heard single major, double major, triple major.
Like to simplify it right down, it's basically, if I understand you correctly, you'reeither majoring in ballet or you're double majoring in ballet and something else.
(13:54):
Like it's that simple.
Okay.
So for the people who are single majoring in ballet, like I'm hearing all this, likenothing's changing.
Why is everyone freaking out?
Um, so...
all these parents like, my God, everything's changing?
Well, we're in we're in a little bit of a situation where news comes from a lot ofdifferent sources and headlines that read there are a couple of different articles out of
(14:22):
Indianapolis that read Indiana University cuts and eliminates something like 200 plusprograms and degree tracks.
And in that list where if you click the list, our ballet bachelor's of science
degree is in there.
(14:42):
But if you read further to the second column, it says, um teach out to graduation, uhdegree will be merged with another program um in the descriptor.
But a lot of people encapsulate, they feel fear, they encapsulate that knowledge, it's ait's a human instinct.
(15:05):
And then you shout it from the rooftops, like what you've
what you've dissected from the information you've received.
And it's just like human instinct.
It's just now we have a platform here, there, and everywhere where um shouting from therooftop is news to a lot of people.
So I think what happened was, and people were outraged thinking that we were, which is acompliment.
(15:28):
It's very high praise when people get outraged that you would be eliminated.
um The...
that is where it's coming from, is the idea that we were on a list of degrees undergoingscrutiny and change, um and we are being changed, but it's only one of two degrees, which
(15:49):
is the missing context clue.
Like, it's one of two degrees, it's, you know, three students of 18 students impacted, notto say those three students aren't important,
but we need to provide for those students.
So our administration at the Jacobs School Music is looking how to do that in the future.
(16:09):
is it fair to say that um you will no longer be able to single major in ballet and thatstudents will have to pick up a second major?
OK.
So how will that work?
So this is the part of the conversation where we're still finalizing, ah we're stillfinalizing the plan with all of the constituencies involved who have not yet had a chance
(16:34):
to weigh in and plan the process.
So it's not something happening to groups of people, but it's happening because and withgroups of people.
the
The tentative plan of attack is to make dance a heavier presence at the Jacobs School ofMusic and move potentially once proper processes are undergone, another strong program to
(17:05):
merge with our program at the Jacobs School of Music, essentially taking two strongentities that for whatever reason
are both dance and we're at two different schools of this university and move them intoone school.
That is the hope.
of the major change potentially?
(17:28):
And I know nothing's finalized, but we've talked to some other schools where you actuallymajor in dance with a concentration in ballet or a concentration in modern.
Is that kind of the thinking to keep everybody, to kind of insulate the students and allowthem to continue with just a single major in dance?
but it becomes a dance major with a concentration in ballet or a concentration insomething else.
(17:52):
I think that is more the route that this will end up taking where it is, as I mentioned,this lovely word umbrella that we throw around a lot, but finding the umbrella that
shields and protects these wonderfully strong programs and degrees in one location is thehope.
And it really is an exciting change.
(18:15):
this.
I am, uh if this could happen, if all parties are willing and involved and this ends upbeing, it ends up being the change that moves forward, it's gonna be wonderful to not have
contemporary dance students reaching out to me at the Jacobs School of Music and mesaying, you've got to contact them across the river at contemporary dance at a different
(18:41):
school.
It will be really great.
how that works?
Because like Jenny and I didn't even realize that contemporary dance is in a completelyseparate uh college.
Yeah, so really the way that classical ballet formed, you know, in France, we really wereborn out of the opera program that existed here at the Jacobs School of Music.
(19:05):
So the Jacobs School Music Opera Program that was started, I believe, in the 1960s orsomething like that, even further back than that.
Oh, I'm going to get in such trouble for not knowing the specific history of the operaprogram.
I'll figure it out.
But the opera program that's existed for so long, um
uh Here at Jacobs, the ballet department ended up being formulated to support that andthen grew into this incredibly strong entity thanks to people like Jean-Pierre Bonnefou
(19:31):
and Petitioner Bride being here, Violette Verdi being here, all these amazing individualsthat really set this program apart as a classical ballet entity.
And that's what we want to preserve.
And that's what our dean is so proud of is this aspect of our program where you can putyour pointe shoes on.
at 11.15 in the morning and you can take them off at 5.45 and you're wearing them all day.
(19:57):
And it's a concentrated period of time where you can really study classical ballet andwhat ballet is today on our stages, which is contemporary ballets and classical ballets
and all of these great things.
We wanna preserve that.
um So that is our program and contemporary dance as a program started actually, I believeeven in the School of Public Health,
(20:20):
as a kinesiology degree.
I can't actually speak to their history because I haven't been uh involved with theirprogram.
Perhaps we can have oh them on at some point, their leader and director on to speak of theprogram.
But uh they were born sort of at a different school entirely through the study of thehuman body and its movement.
(20:43):
And then that got reshaped into their BFA degree, which exists with musical theater.
and theater over at the College of Arts and Sciences.
So uh in the way ballet was kind of born out of this music degree, they were sort of bornout of the physical sciences aspect of that area and then moved to musical and musical
(21:04):
theater and theater.
And so we have existed in two separate locations.
And that's where, you know, the hope for the future would be.
maybe there's a way to enhance dance by unifying it all under one location.
So do you know approximately what that timeframe looks like before you'll have a clearunderstanding about what that second degree will be?
(21:31):
Like that BFA in dance, is there a timeline that you are working towards?
Yeah, ideally, I mean, this is the summer and faculty only really get compensated duringthe year.
So it's like a 10 month, it's 10 month employment.
So that's where these finalized decisions about what this looks like, uh whether or notit's happening, all of these great things, um hopes and dreams can be realized and
(21:56):
finalized as the fall semester happens.
We definitely want to be able to and our communications department will let everyone knowonce the good
an exciting word is finalized.
um It'll go out in news releases, hopefully through dance media, um emails to ourwonderful families and current students who, as I mentioned, are not being impacted
(22:20):
directly by the changes, but will be a part of the wonderful future.
um And then it'll go out in social media posts and those kinds of things.
But the hope is that, you know, the admissions, the students being admission,
admitted, bigger pardon, in fall 26, we want to get all that information to them as soonas possible.
(22:41):
You know, we have time.
That's the glorious thing about this is like, it's not like we have to have this, uh thisfuture ironed out by August 26.
Like we get the opportunity to spend a year um getting to know everyone.
all of the different players in this future umbrella degree and making sure that it'sreally like the strongest offering um for the future.
(23:09):
It's exciting.
It is an exciting build.
It's always like hard when somebody um creates a pathway that maybe you didn't seeyourself for something to happen.
um That can sometimes come with feelings of, well, I didn't make this decision, but likethis is a decision
we would make anyway, um given the time.
(23:32):
So it's really exciting to plan for the future.
So I would say definitely everything finalized for go time, um fall 2026.
But the hope is that as we start to um discuss things, because the general idea is to moveeach successful program, you know.
(23:54):
as its entity exists under one umbrella.
Like it should be a relatively seamless process, assuming that everything goes through andeveryone feels happy and comfortable with the change.
And there are backup plans.
I just wanted to say too that there are backup plans in case if there isn't a merger inthe future, there will be a worked for preservation of these wonderful programs.
(24:22):
So what does the deadline look like for the state?
What does that pressure look like for Indiana University to come up with?
uh
fall, fall 2026.
That's their deadline.
It's right there in that article, the click link to the listing where it lists theBachelors of Science in Ballet.
It's fall 2026-27 with graduate out for anyone enrolled prior.
(24:46):
So you're saying that any changes would be for students entering the university in thefall of 2026, so a year from now.
OK, so em is the thinking, and maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but why wouldn't youjust have anything that involves the performing arts all in one college?
Like musical theater, contemporary dance, ballet, music, opera, all of it.
(25:11):
If you are performing for an audience, why
That makes sense to consolidate all of that.
Is that kind of what the thinking is?
Yeah, think, well, I don't know.
I mean, I can't really speak to the future, but I think you're speaking to the heart of, Imean, our dean here at Jacobs, you know, really loves that aspect of compelling audiences
(25:35):
with music, with um all that we have to offer as artists.
I don't know what the future holds, but I mean, you're speaking, I think you're speakingright to like,
logic with your words.
is that, so from what I understand, and I know it's not all finalized, but the thinking isat the very least contemporary dance would move, would be combined with ballet in one
(26:00):
college, department, whatever you want to call it, right?
ah But in terms of like the impact on students, it sounds to me like there's no impact onstudents in terms of coursework or any of that.
ah
because of the combining of these programs to allow for a single major in a dance, in someconcentration on dance, correct?
(26:30):
Okay.
write that and I'll email it to a bunch of people.
Exactly.
That's the hope for that.
No, that's that.
That is the hope for the future, as I said, and I have said and will say, like, it's notnothing is nothing is ratified by the major players yet, meaning the the wonderful faculty
that are involved in contemporary dance, the wonderful individuals that are part of this.
(26:53):
greater mission.
We want to make sure my family, everybody is having their summer vacations right now.
uh But so making sure that everyone gets a chance to build the future together is really,really important.
But you've said it exactly what it would look like as we have hopes and dreams of itbeing.
(27:15):
Yeah, I think that's really important too to reiterate the fact that all of the staff ison vacation and no one is in their offices making decisions other than like the department
heads.
Is that true?
I really appreciate you saying that.
Yes, that was the I was at the beach, uh you know, and I like I like I love what I do.
(27:40):
And so I like saturate myself in studio time and until like the last week in June, thefirst week in July, which is like sacred.
Mom is with us time.
It's like, what is happening on my iPhone?
Like
for a large portion of last week to put down, like I said, like I'm not mad about like ifyour program, if this podcast were to go away and no one said anything, how much would
(28:13):
that hurt your feelings?
Like ours is just our program.
I'm gonna like, I'm getting feclempt, but like we were even, you know, hinted at goingaway or not hinted at, we were like, uh
encapsulated headline as going away and the number of people that reached out to me likethis can't happen, um we want to help, was just breathtaking.
(28:41):
you know, everyone I wrote to I feel thankful for and I feel badly for all the familiesactually that were in any kind of fear, my current students' families that were in any
kind of fear.
m It's always hard to get around
a headline that makes us feel something incredible.
(29:01):
It's hard to change that uh passion, but you don't need pitchforks for this departmentyet.
I'll let you know when that happens for sure.
and fear.
I.
I think there's a lot of people like, that's, I'm glad you were able to kind of quell thefear because there, there were a lot of people who were like, my God, the Indiana Valley
(29:24):
program is getting eliminated.
What are we going to do?
But I do have a question.
This is actually a question from a listener.
So we, we just put the word out like, Hey, we're talking to Sarah Roth.
We want to get the real story.
And then we just got flooded with questions.
And one I thought was really interesting.
They were asking uh what percentage, and I went to a state school, so I know the wholein-state, out-of-state thing.
(29:48):
uh What percentage of current ballet majors are Indiana residents, and will any changes bemade to admit more Indiana residents to the program?
No, is um application, I believe processes have been altered in some way for Indianaresidents, allowing them.
um I don't even know the details on that, but nothing in our admissions is changing.
(30:15):
are still, uh do we enjoy your dancing is our process.
of selecting students.
So um no, the very short, very easy, truthful answer is absolutely nothing is changingwith regard to Indiana residents versus out-of-state residents.
I actually don't know the concrete number of our dancers that are Indiana residents.
(30:37):
I couldn't tell you.
I think it's um somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 % or fewer, just because there aresome really
great schools in Indiana for training, but it's really, you show up, you dance withpassion and joy.
Do you take class like you enjoy taking class?
(30:58):
Okay, let's work together.
um And it will always be that for us.
Really pedigree is not the story here.
No matter what, it's how do you do in the audition, which is very much like it is in theprofessional world.
Okay, so we're gonna continue to dive into our listener questions, because we've got somany.
(31:18):
So um what is the current number of ballet professors for the 2025-26 year, and how willthat change, especially if you merge with the contemporary dance uh program?
Will there be overlapping professors that could possibly lose their positions?
No, the answer is no.
(31:39):
There's no change planned for the future at all.
To our numbers, we have the same professors for next year that we do currently.
We have uh six sort of core teachers for our ballet majors and two additional lecturerswho help out.
um One lecturer position was visiting anyway, and we extended her one year, and she'll bewith us one year more.
(32:07):
There's no change.
As I mentioned before, we are a successful entity.
We are not going anywhere.
We are not on growing changes.
We're just going to keep on keeping on doing what we do.
yeah, that's answer.
take the next breath or you want okay um has the state of indiana oh nope i asked that onesorry no sorry this is the taxpayer one hold on has the state of indiana indicated they
(32:40):
require state-funded schools to admit more state residents to benefit indiana taxpayers
I had to ask about this one and no, there are new requirements about acceptingapplications from Indiana residents, which is what I tried to mention accurately earlier.
So there are new requirements about accepting applications to Indiana University as anentity, but not to admitting students in any way, shape or form.
(33:11):
Yeah, and I think it's interesting because honestly, the ballet program is pretty small.
I know, so I went to the University of Wisconsin at Madison.
And when I was there, was 85 % in-state, 15 % out-of-state.
Like that was just, those were the numbers.
it was a very, the getting in from out-of-state was harder than getting in from in-statejust because of that.
(33:31):
And that was always kind of the standard for the Big Ten public universities.
ah But I would think like it wouldn't affect you guys as much because
the number of people applying to the engineering school versus the business school versusballet.
Like you probably have a lot more latitude than like, you know, the engineering schooldoes.
(33:53):
Yeah, exactly.
So, um.
Bye, Brett.
No, no, no, go ahead.
In the last five years, how many Jacobs Academy Ballet students auditioned for the Balletmajor and how many were accepted?
Yeah, in the past four years, Jacobs Academy, just for anyone who know, it's a umpre-college
(34:18):
program for dancers in the local community of Bloomington.
We've had four applicants in the past five years and one has been admitted to the program.
It's really just a part of that.
we, we look for what's best for the dancers.
Sometimes being with us isn't what's best for the dancer.
We have those conversations on an individual basis.
(34:40):
We have a really high standard as a program and we just want to work with uh everyone tofind them their best self.
And um
Yeah, and that's where we are.
Can you talk about what Jacobs Academy, like is it just a ballet school for kids beforecollege?
just a local community ballet school that uses our studios after.
um I teach for those classes once a week.
(35:02):
We try and do a little bit of a faculty rotation in offering those students theopportunity to work with us.
They're in all of our productions that involve children.
They were in Phil Chon and Doug Fullington's um Star on the Rise by Adair.
And they were also in Art Knuckcracker every year.
um
It's a really wonderful program.
(35:22):
have two new directors of that program, Rebecca Janes and Robin Allen, and they took overas full directors this past year.
So it's undergone curricular changes and um in an attempt to really unify uh the work thatthey're doing and uh really make sure it offers a vocational training for students, but
(35:44):
also pre-professional opportunities where those dancers need that guidance.
But so that's what it is.
It's largely Bloomington community and around Indiana students.
And we try and provide them with all the joy and passion that we feel in dance.
And I think the opportunity to teach that population is a really important aspect of ourprogram.
(36:07):
Many of our majors teach for the Jacobs Academy program and it offers them sometimes theirfirst teaching opportunity.
Sometimes as it was with me when I was a student here, the opportunity to realize
really realize how much you love teaching, how much you love that connection with studentsand building that important ballet relationship that guides mentor and mentee within the
(36:35):
studio.
Sure.
students do by service doing the ballet at cabin?
We would need to consult the directors for the exact number.
I believe there are about 150 in their end of year performance this past spring.
And that incorporated students from the age of three all the way to the age of 18.
(36:57):
So it's a program for creative ballet and intro to ballet and really get students dancingfor the first time.
That's really nice.
That's nice community outreach too.
it's wonderful.
It's really wonderful.
And like I said, seeing the majors sort of remember their beginnings is a really importantpart.
(37:19):
You always learn more when you teach.
That's true in any subject in any field.
If you can explain it to someone else, you digest that information in such a moreimportant way.
And for me as a dancer, I graduated from here.
I had taught not only for the pre-college ballet program that's now called the JacobsAcademy Ballet Program, um but I had taught classes for our elective program students who
(37:42):
are enrolled adults through the university.
And I went to Boston Ballet and the first thing I did when I realized how much time I hadon my hands as a professional dancer was say I would love the opportunity to teach for the
school.
And Miko Nisenan said, yeah, just check in with.
you know, offer your services to the principal.
(38:03):
So I think that that identity that we get the opportunity to give every dancer, becausemost dancers at some point in time in their career are going to be asked to teach a class,
even if it's just like this group of donors needs a class to have fun and feel what itfeels like to be a ballerina for an evening.
We'll have the opportunity to teach class at some point.
(38:25):
Okay, so let's keep going with our listener questions.
The next one is what percentage of ballet majors receive paying contracts right aftergraduation?
Great, um I love this question.
always get this question at our, we, every audition Friday, we have a little post auditionQ and A, and I usually have dancers uh answer questions, but I usually get this question
(38:48):
from the group.
I mean, the honest and forthright answer is it varies year to year because every year is adifferent playing field of opportunity for graduates.
Every group is different, every individual is different in their work ethic and the timethey spend on their reels and what the work is they put in.
This past graduate in class was 16.
(39:12):
Two dancers got unpaid contracts.
We had 75 % get paid positions upon graduating.
Six of those positions were full company contracts.
The rest were...
Yeah, yeah, the numbers were, I mean, really good.
That doesn't mean next year will be those numbers.
(39:34):
And that's why it gets, it gets a little harrowing.
um But, you know, we do a lot of work with them on preparing their reels, on coaching themin the process.
This past year, we invited five artistic directors to teach class here, which I thinkreally helped.
It not only helped, you can get lost in Bloomington, Indiana, believe it or not, andpeople don't actually know what happens here.
(39:58):
I had a friend come teach this past spring in May who came in and he looked at the studiosand he was like, this is it.
It's three studios and this is where all the magic happens.
Like, I don't know what I thought it was, but I thought it, you know what I mean?
And it was kind of, it was really touching because we do so much here.
um yeah, every year won't look like this, but we do a lot to try and make sure thesestudents are exposed.
(40:27):
And these students uh really work, really work on themselves to be their best self so thatwhen they go and get an audition or a job and they go and they're in front of someone,
they know who they are and they know what they want to share.
That's pretty fantastic though, 75 % is, mean, that's, there aren't a lot of schools thatcan say that.
(40:50):
know, college or, you know, pre-pro training, that's like, that's pretty darn good.
So somebody else asked, what about the percentage of contemporary students receivingpaying contracts right after graduation?
I don't have any of that information because I'm not an expert on that program.
sure, that's totally fair.
ah And then this is another one about the contemporary program.
(41:15):
How will the contemporary minor be impacted?
And will it still exist if it's under Jacob's going forward?
OK.
because it's all still hypothetical.
But all I can say is the hope is that everything or the plan or the I don't know whichword is the most concrete, least concrete word I can just describe it is that everything
(41:42):
maintains the goodness that it has built if this merger goes through to its completion.
one thing that somebody asked, and I maybe just didn't realize this, is it's saying, willit still be non-audition for the contemporary program?
Is the contemporary program a non-audition program?
(42:05):
I know.
I would say I think that they have an audition, I am again, I don't want to speak tothings that I don't know, because that's not nobody good at that.
says it's the minor though.
So maybe it's like if you do a minor it's not.
Oh yeah, maybe.
They have a minor in dance currently.
(42:25):
They have a dance minor that they've provided for through a myriad of uh elective courses.
A lot have taken ballet courses.
There's actually a tremendous amount of crossover already.
One of our beloved faculty members, Christian Claassen, already teaches ballet to thecontemporary dance majors.
um So I would imagine everything will be preserved in the entity of success that it is,but I don't know.
(42:52):
So I don't want to.
I'll just blanket with this is I know it is still early days.
I know you haven't voted yet, but will the physical studio space change for the balletprogram if the contemporary is merged into a combined degree?
No, if it is merged into a combined degree, the hope uh through all conversations is thatresources maintain themselves, which is budget, is spaces, which is performance venues,
(43:20):
which is studio space.
Where we can share, we will, but where we have, we will keep.
ah Because resources is what we fear most in the arts.
Encroachment on resources is the perilous factor.
And I think everybody knows that.
So in these conversations, that's where we've been.
(43:42):
And that's with, I think that's with every entity on campus, anywhere anyone looks tomerge, it's a conversation about resources.
um So that hasn't happened yet, but they know that we are in a space where we're evenlooking to have more resources for ballets.
So that is not a part of the conversation.
(44:05):
Okay, one more question about contemporary because I think people are very concerned aboutthis.
Under a merger, will ballet students be required to audition against contemporary studentsfor roles in ballet?
That I can speak to that we are not merging, ballet is not merging its program with anyother program.
(44:29):
Like our program, our curriculum, our dancers, our ballets are maintaining themselves forthe protection of and best uh benefits to our dancers.
So that's not a part of future planning.
Do contemporary majors ever end up in productions that you guys stage out, know, quote,out of the ballet department?
(44:57):
We did this amazing collaboration pre-pandemic, so was like 42 years ago, um where we didum Deuce Coop by Dwyle a Tharp.
I don't know if you've ever known that ballet, but it's to all Beach Boys music.
It's an incredible feat that ABT ended up doing the year after we did it.
(45:19):
And so our majors, as they were resurrecting this piece from this footage that was blurry,
and we were trying to put together, what's that dancer doing?
It was the first time it had been revitalized and it has contemporary dancers, because atthe time it was Twyla Tharp's company built on, I believe it was Joffrey Ballet.
(45:40):
So it was like ballet dancers and contemporary dancers unified together on one stage tothe Beach Boys music.
I was actually just thinking about it the other night because I heard Surfing USA and it'sthis amazing section where the contemporary dancers, she just has them run and slide like
they're surfing across the stage the whole time, cemented in my brain.
(46:03):
But we did that and that was on the Mac stage and then we performed also at their venueover at the College of Arts and Sciences, which was incredible as well.
So it gave more opportunity to everyone to perform twice.
And that was awesome to have everyone in the studio together kind of appreciating.
each other for the differences in movement quality and the different sensibilities that weall have.
(46:25):
um That was really, really fun.
So we have done it in the past in that way.
I had a contemporary dancer who joined me for a performance this past May um just becauseof uh a credit issue that they needed help with.
And I was willing to open up sort of our ensemble to help them out.
um Yeah.
(46:46):
But it's not something that's crazy or could never happen in the future.
But it was with kind of the integrity of both programs showing how wonderful they are atonce, which was cool.
think there might be a little bit of a fear from the, maybe from the parents of futureballet students that the competition might get even stiffer than it already is.
(47:09):
But it sounds like that it's kind of like, I don't want to say the exception to the rule,but it's kind of the exception.
Yeah, that's absolutely the exception to the rule.
the thing is, is contemporary ballet, contemporary movement is something every balletdancer needs.
So if I was to say that we would open up our contemporary works to allowing contemporarydancers to take those works from ballet dancers that need to move in that way, it would be
(47:35):
like throwing out a textbook.
that I desperately needed for our students to study.
that again, that's where the curriculums have to maintain their integrity if any kind ofemerge is to happen.
And it's a way where we can learn from each other in the best ways possible.
Ballet dancers are terrified of improvisation because we like to be told what to do.
(47:56):
with specificity.
I think that that's where that's a course that they offer that I would love for ourdancers to dip into.
uh
You know, there's ways that we can learn from each other if it is a combination thathappens in the future.
I think either way, there's so many ways that we can learn from each other.
(48:18):
Will funding be affected for ballet-only performances?
Not at all.
Sorry to be so fast.
I interrupt to do not at all.
No, no.
Resort.
No, let's do it.
uh
the, I love the emphatic.
Absolutely not.
No, absolutely not.
That is not a part of the, that's not a part of any conversation.
(48:40):
As I mentioned, it's administrative.
It's, it's curricular in the sense of curricular organization, not content, not planning,and not restrictions on, on content.
and not for admission.
No.
No.
So if contemporary moves into Jacobs, I assume the leadership would come with it and thatit would be run as its own.
(49:08):
It's essentially a physical move more than anything else.
Yeah, no matter what, it's not going to be uh like me pretending like I understand themand it's not going to be them pretending like they understand me and it's not going to be
any other entity that would come along for the ride.
this, I think the beauty of higher education are these individuals, these artists thathave studied their craft.
(49:35):
that bring knowledge, that bring research.
Like when you're looking across the university, these individuals that have their passionin the subject matter they're teaching, having those individuals at the helm of their own
decision making is really, really crucial to curriculums being effective.
And that's all we want to be is uh do the best for our students, make the best choices forour students to be successful.
(50:02):
And that's true no matter what.
on into the future.
So as we're wrapping up this conversation, I just want to maybe calm a whole lot of nervesfor all of those listeners out there who are interested in applying to Indiana, whose kids
(50:24):
are coming to Indiana.
How will future changes be communicated to incoming students as plans are finalized?
This is great.
And this is where the fear comes from.
Actually, my beloved um mentor, Gwyn Richards, who got me this job as the chair here atthe Jacobs School Music, um or he was part of a group that got me this job, probably
(50:52):
including myself, maybe I can give myself some credit, um was he said, the absence of aclear...
the absence of clear communication.
think I've said this on the podcast before, so I'm not revealing anything new.
oh
In fact, I say Sarah Roth says, the absence of communication becomes the narrative.
I say it all the time now.
I want to put it on a shirt.
(51:13):
It is fantastic.
make a shirt, make a ballet help dress shirt.
The absence of clear communication creates a narrative and that narrative is neverpositive.
And I think that's exactly what we have here, right?
We had a headline, we had uh a moment for ballet at Jacobs that looked perilous andterrifying for students who have looked to us as a light for their future.
(51:37):
In the future, all these changes.
If this goes through, if everything that I've talked about becomes uh realized, the newswill be clear.
It will come from our Jacobs School of Music Communications office.
It will hopefully come through some dance media, dance news entity.
(51:57):
um It will be broadcast on social media via our channels at IUJSong and at IU JacobsBallet.
oh We will make sure that communication is clear to our families, to any studentsapplying.
It will appear in admissions materials and in admissions communication.
oh It will be clearly communicated from us.
(52:22):
And I think that's the best possible way to source your panic.
from the direct source.
Don't source your panic from secondary sources as much as possible.
And if you need anything, if you have questions, feel free to reach out to me.
Feel free to email me.
It's SWROTH at IU.edu.
(52:44):
And I'm happy to be, you know, explain whatever I can.
Again, I can't answer questions on final details where faculty haven't been consulted andproper processes haven't gone through because we're in
the glorious summer of the university.
once things are finalized, this is going to be an exciting piece of news from the school.
(53:07):
So we will share as we can.
Ballet at Indiana University is not going anywhere.
Ballet at Indiana University is not going anywhere.
Yes.
think that's a great place to leave it.
Sarah, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about that we have not covered here?
Any information that you feel like we didn't touch on that you wanted to share with ourlisteners?
(53:31):
No, I think you crushed it.
Just that.
um We will always be a place where knowledge and dance can blend.
What makes us so strong is we don't exist everywhere.
We're not at every university, a program that focuses on classical ballet training for thefuture.
um We will always be here.
(53:54):
trying to find those jobs in the classical ballet field for our dancers.
Thank you so much for having me.
I truly respect this podcast and I was so thrilled when you invited me on.
Thank you.
you so much for taking your time out of your really busy summer and beach time with thekids and we very much appreciate it.
So thank you so much for joining us today.
(54:15):
No problem, thank you.
Sarah, thank you so much for coming on.
I know we have a lot to talk about.
Yeah, I'm super pleased to be here on Ballet Help Desk.
Thank you again, Brett and Jenny.
So uh what's going on at Indiana?
mean, people are like, there's hair on fire all over the place.
Now, it's been exciting times for us.
I will say that the outpouring of support that we've received from alumni, from parents,from friends, from stagers, from choreographers who have reached out saying, we will write
(00:32):
letters, we will come and defend you has been just absolutely incredible and so um heartkindling to feel that support.
There are a lot of programs at IU that
would need that support and that fight, we are not one of them.
Ballet at the Jacobs School of Music is a highly valued degree.
(00:56):
We are successful.
We are strong.
We make majors who get jobs.
And that is what, that's the bar that higher education is facing really right now is like,can you...
make individuals who will get jobs and our dancers do that.
We are a program that will continue on at Indiana University.
(01:17):
We do not have to panic.
No one has to panic surrounding our ballet department right now.
We have an exciting year ahead, uh incredible ballets.
We have two successful degree programs.
One has undergone scrutiny through the state for the number of graduates.
(01:39):
We have a bachelors of science in ballet, uh a bigger part in bachelors of science with anoutside field um that is in music.
So it falls under this larger degree of music at the Jacobs School Music and yields theseamazing numbers of graduates because of that number.
All of the dancers that participate in that outside field program get to choose any majorat Indiana University, this amazing R1 institution.
(02:08):
and choose a secondary field of study.
And what that does is provide you an off-ramp to your career, gives you maybe a second jobto supplement your income in that first job position you get straight out of graduating.
um Those BSOF majors will undergo no change.
(02:29):
There's a second degree.
All of these dancers take class with the BSOF dancers, the Bachelors of Science in Balletdegree.
We generally have a handful of majors, I would say two or three, um that graduate withthat degree.
And when you put a graduating class of 15 as a mandatory requirement, that degree doesn'tquite fit what the state has designed.
(02:57):
We are looking at restructuring that program.
It's largely been utilized by dancers who are pairing it with a second degree.
um
Our entire administrative team knows that that process needs to be provided for.
And that's where we're looking at how we can merge to make dance at Indiana University aneven stronger entity.
(03:20):
But all students will be provided for.
And another thing I really need to say too is that no dancers currently enrolled or firstyear dancers coming in in the fall are impacted by this at all.
They get to join.
and proceed as if none of this uh restructuring of the second degree was happening.
(03:41):
uh They can choose to be part of it if they wish, but they don't have to.
So can we back up a little bit?
What is happening with the, like, what's the mandate from the state?
if we don't live in Indiana, like, we haven't heard anything about this, but like, I'dlove to hear more about like what they're saying to the university overall, and then kind
(04:02):
of how it's impacting you and um any future students looking at the Ballet Program.
Yeah, it's, well, really the mandate is 15 graduates per year for a degree program tomaintain its status.
And this happened through a change through the Indiana state government this past spring.
(04:27):
And that mandate really, like I said, will not affect our program.
The curriculum is staying the same, the performance venues, the performance content,everything that we're providing for our dancers is staying exactly the same.
The only thing it changes is, as I mentioned, that one degree program that under itsdescription currently doesn't fit that graduating number.
(04:49):
We're looking for how we can provide for students that don't want to get the Bachelor's ofScience with an outside field for the future.
So what you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is that if you want to go to Indianaand only major in ballet, that might be a challenge going forward.
No, not at all.
We're changing the current paradigm.
(05:11):
The hope is that it'll either be a BS degree in dance or a BFA degree in dance.
We're finalizing that process and not everyone that's playing the planning game for that,for our future at the Jacobs School of Music has weighed in.
So there's a little bit of a finalization process, but the hope is it will be a BFA indance with different tracks.
(05:34):
or a BS degree in dance with different tracks.
And we're working that out with our administration.
But there will be, there is no story with this that ends with something is eliminated.
Nothing is being eliminated.
One thing has to change.
Are they means testing, these majors?
(05:55):
Like you mentioned something earlier about like our graduates get jobs.
Is there some sort of means test that the state's putting into the university to where youhave to prove that your graduates are getting jobs?
No, but I think all of this work with higher education, all of the scrutiny andself-assessment of higher education is making sure that the value of the investment is
(06:17):
genuine.
And I think that's where all of these changes come from.
You can assess them in different ways, but I think looking at oneself and making sureyou're being effective is a really, really important thing that we should all be doing.
oh
Every college program should be doing that.
And we are doing that as a part of this larger imposed scrutiny, but it's important.
(06:41):
ah There is no metric.
It's just my own sort of values assessment of where this is coming from.
There's nothing like a reporting system or a bar we have to hit.
But I do think that's what the heart of this is, is like, are you an effective educationprogram that prepares students for the future?
And the answer for that for me is yes, but how can we can be even better?
(07:06):
Right, so can I ask you, will this change the number of students that you admit per yearso then you can hit that quota?
Great question, no.
um As I mentioned before, largely with the BSOF, those numbers fall into numbers.
mean, it sounds so weird to talk about numbers in the arts.
It kind of like really hurts my soul, but I feel like we all have to be prudent.
(07:30):
The number of graduates that would participate in the BSOF fall under this larger umbrellaum that goes through the Jacobs School of Music, because it's a bachelor's of science in
music, ballet concentration with an outside field.
And then um the other group just needs to find an umbrella.
And that's what the administration is committed to is finding an umbrella for those BSstudents who are currently majors in just ballet, even though they're usually double
(08:00):
majoring in something else as well.
uh Number of students will say the same.
Everything about the success of this program.
is staying the same.
The incredible number of students we have, we had 75 majors at one point last year in ourstudios dancing together.
That's high for us.
(08:21):
A happier number is around 65, 63.
And we are getting closer to that number next year.
We intentionally really had a selective admissions process this past spring.
to yield a smaller incoming class.
I do not foresee that for next year.
All the numbers will be exactly the same as they've always been in previous years for nextfall and ongoing into the future.
(08:48):
So like 15 or 20 per class.
Yes, so we usually start and I know this is one of uh the questions we wanted to speak of,the usually we have about 250 apply.
We usually accept around 100 through that initial pre screening process that has to happenby November 1st for the best scholarship offers.
(09:10):
That's a hot tip.
Get it all done by November 1st.
They can choose one of three in-person audition dates once they're passed through thepre-screening process.
Usually about 100 make it to that place.
And then in a normal year, we accept about 36.
And that yields the class of 18 to 20, as you mentioned, Jenny.
(09:31):
This past year, we admitted somewhere closer to 28 to.
do your admission on a rolling basis?
Um, yes, we, we, it we, we begin in that January phase of looking at dancers, and it'salways been in the past, like, if we like somebody, we take somebody.
(09:53):
And that's always just naturally yielded the correct number.
It was only this last spring where we kind of held some off and, and waited until we had afinal decision on our number because we were trying to
I feel like if you have too many majors, you can't learn everyone's story.
And if you can't learn everyone's story and know what people need to work on, it becomesan in-personal experience.
(10:18):
And here we're very much about that student-teacher ratio, the ability for us all to helpeveryone be nurtured and become their best self.
uh really needing to have the appropriate number for our studios and our faculty is reallyimportant to us.
So can I ask you something, just peel back a little bit about what you talked about beforewith the two different majors.
(10:43):
What's the difference between the Bachelor of Science in music with a ballet concentrationand a BFA?
Is it like a completely separate program track that people would choose or then why isn'teveryone just under that umbrella?
yes and no.
So they take all of the same ballet courses.
(11:06):
The heart of the degree in ballet is the same.
And right now it's currently, just to clarify, is a BS in ballet or a BSOF, which is aBachelor of Science with an outside field.
Those dancers all take the same core ballet courses.
They take
There are five or six credit hours of our ballet major that happens from 1115 to 545 everyday.
(11:28):
They're all in the same class together.
um They take the same ballet pedagogy requirements, the same conditioning for the balletbody, ballet history, anatomy, all of those great things are all blended together and
those are all the same uh core content.
It's just the ballet BSOF.
has 27 credits in an external field of their choice through Indiana University.
(11:55):
And the Ballet Bachelor's of Science track has uh music courses, additional physicaleducation courses that are part of more of elective content where they are fueling the
musical element of their degree and the study of their physical selves, but it doesn'thave to do with a concentrated academic area.
(12:16):
if that makes sense, but all of the like ballet elements, they're all together, they'reall unified, they're all in one space.
It's like a uh one big happy family of ballet study.
It's just then you choose how that branch is.
And as I mentioned before, historically, the ballet only branch, we've had some amazingstories of dancers, you know, here really to get their degree.
(12:40):
um A dancer who performed professionally for...
eight years prior to coming to this school.
She owns a shop on the square here in Bloomington and she became a ballet major.
She was just a, not just, but she was a ballet bachelor's of science major.
um And then we have dancers a lot of the times who choose the ballet only track to pairwith a second degree from the Kelly School of Business.
(13:06):
because of the way the class times and flexibility fits together, which is why we need topreserve that track for the future.
Because otherwise we could just say, let's get rid of that track.
The majority of people do the BSOF.
Let's just keep that.
But we want to make the track for the ballet only educated dancer here um with theunderstanding that's a science.
(13:29):
It's a study.
It's a practice that really deserves a credential.
um
eh in mind as we plan for the future.
It sounds like, you know, from the perspective of a student, like Jenny and I both justhad kids graduate from college in May.
And so, you you heard single major, double major, triple major.
Like to simplify it right down, it's basically, if I understand you correctly, you'reeither majoring in ballet or you're double majoring in ballet and something else.
(13:54):
Like it's that simple.
Okay.
So for the people who are single majoring in ballet, like I'm hearing all this, likenothing's changing.
Why is everyone freaking out?
Um, so...
all these parents like, my God, everything's changing?
Well, we're in we're in a little bit of a situation where news comes from a lot ofdifferent sources and headlines that read there are a couple of different articles out of
(14:22):
Indianapolis that read Indiana University cuts and eliminates something like 200 plusprograms and degree tracks.
And in that list where if you click the list, our ballet bachelor's of science
degree is in there.
(14:42):
But if you read further to the second column, it says, um teach out to graduation, uhdegree will be merged with another program um in the descriptor.
But a lot of people encapsulate, they feel fear, they encapsulate that knowledge, it's ait's a human instinct.
(15:05):
And then you shout it from the rooftops, like what you've
what you've dissected from the information you've received.
And it's just like human instinct.
It's just now we have a platform here, there, and everywhere where um shouting from therooftop is news to a lot of people.
So I think what happened was, and people were outraged thinking that we were, which is acompliment.
(15:28):
It's very high praise when people get outraged that you would be eliminated.
um The...
that is where it's coming from, is the idea that we were on a list of degrees undergoingscrutiny and change, um and we are being changed, but it's only one of two degrees, which
(15:49):
is the missing context clue.
Like, it's one of two degrees, it's, you know, three students of 18 students impacted, notto say those three students aren't important,
but we need to provide for those students.
So our administration at the Jacobs School Music is looking how to do that in the future.
(16:09):
is it fair to say that um you will no longer be able to single major in ballet and thatstudents will have to pick up a second major?
OK.
So how will that work?
So this is the part of the conversation where we're still finalizing, ah we're stillfinalizing the plan with all of the constituencies involved who have not yet had a chance
(16:34):
to weigh in and plan the process.
So it's not something happening to groups of people, but it's happening because and withgroups of people.
the
The tentative plan of attack is to make dance a heavier presence at the Jacobs School ofMusic and move potentially once proper processes are undergone, another strong program to
(17:05):
merge with our program at the Jacobs School of Music, essentially taking two strongentities that for whatever reason
are both dance and we're at two different schools of this university and move them intoone school.
That is the hope.
of the major change potentially?
(17:28):
And I know nothing's finalized, but we've talked to some other schools where you actuallymajor in dance with a concentration in ballet or a concentration in modern.
Is that kind of the thinking to keep everybody, to kind of insulate the students and allowthem to continue with just a single major in dance?
but it becomes a dance major with a concentration in ballet or a concentration insomething else.
(17:52):
I think that is more the route that this will end up taking where it is, as I mentioned,this lovely word umbrella that we throw around a lot, but finding the umbrella that
shields and protects these wonderfully strong programs and degrees in one location is thehope.
And it really is an exciting change.
(18:15):
this.
I am, uh if this could happen, if all parties are willing and involved and this ends upbeing, it ends up being the change that moves forward, it's gonna be wonderful to not have
contemporary dance students reaching out to me at the Jacobs School of Music and mesaying, you've got to contact them across the river at contemporary dance at a different
(18:41):
school.
It will be really great.
how that works?
Because like Jenny and I didn't even realize that contemporary dance is in a completelyseparate uh college.
Yeah, so really the way that classical ballet formed, you know, in France, we really wereborn out of the opera program that existed here at the Jacobs School of Music.
(19:05):
So the Jacobs School Music Opera Program that was started, I believe, in the 1960s orsomething like that, even further back than that.
Oh, I'm going to get in such trouble for not knowing the specific history of the operaprogram.
I'll figure it out.
But the opera program that's existed for so long, um
uh Here at Jacobs, the ballet department ended up being formulated to support that andthen grew into this incredibly strong entity thanks to people like Jean-Pierre Bonnefou
(19:31):
and Petitioner Bride being here, Violette Verdi being here, all these amazing individualsthat really set this program apart as a classical ballet entity.
And that's what we want to preserve.
And that's what our dean is so proud of is this aspect of our program where you can putyour pointe shoes on.
at 11.15 in the morning and you can take them off at 5.45 and you're wearing them all day.
(19:57):
And it's a concentrated period of time where you can really study classical ballet andwhat ballet is today on our stages, which is contemporary ballets and classical ballets
and all of these great things.
We wanna preserve that.
um So that is our program and contemporary dance as a program started actually, I believeeven in the School of Public Health,
(20:20):
as a kinesiology degree.
I can't actually speak to their history because I haven't been uh involved with theirprogram.
Perhaps we can have oh them on at some point, their leader and director on to speak of theprogram.
But uh they were born sort of at a different school entirely through the study of thehuman body and its movement.
(20:43):
And then that got reshaped into their BFA degree, which exists with musical theater.
and theater over at the College of Arts and Sciences.
So uh in the way ballet was kind of born out of this music degree, they were sort of bornout of the physical sciences aspect of that area and then moved to musical and musical
(21:04):
theater and theater.
And so we have existed in two separate locations.
And that's where, you know, the hope for the future would be.
maybe there's a way to enhance dance by unifying it all under one location.
So do you know approximately what that timeframe looks like before you'll have a clearunderstanding about what that second degree will be?
(21:31):
Like that BFA in dance, is there a timeline that you are working towards?
Yeah, ideally, I mean, this is the summer and faculty only really get compensated duringthe year.
So it's like a 10 month, it's 10 month employment.
So that's where these finalized decisions about what this looks like, uh whether or notit's happening, all of these great things, um hopes and dreams can be realized and
(21:56):
finalized as the fall semester happens.
We definitely want to be able to and our communications department will let everyone knowonce the good
an exciting word is finalized.
um It'll go out in news releases, hopefully through dance media, um emails to ourwonderful families and current students who, as I mentioned, are not being impacted
(22:20):
directly by the changes, but will be a part of the wonderful future.
um And then it'll go out in social media posts and those kinds of things.
But the hope is that, you know, the admissions, the students being admission,
admitted, bigger pardon, in fall 26, we want to get all that information to them as soonas possible.
(22:41):
You know, we have time.
That's the glorious thing about this is like, it's not like we have to have this, uh thisfuture ironed out by August 26.
Like we get the opportunity to spend a year um getting to know everyone.
all of the different players in this future umbrella degree and making sure that it'sreally like the strongest offering um for the future.
(23:09):
It's exciting.
It is an exciting build.
It's always like hard when somebody um creates a pathway that maybe you didn't seeyourself for something to happen.
um That can sometimes come with feelings of, well, I didn't make this decision, but likethis is a decision
we would make anyway, um given the time.
(23:32):
So it's really exciting to plan for the future.
So I would say definitely everything finalized for go time, um fall 2026.
But the hope is that as we start to um discuss things, because the general idea is to moveeach successful program, you know.
(23:54):
as its entity exists under one umbrella.
Like it should be a relatively seamless process, assuming that everything goes through andeveryone feels happy and comfortable with the change.
And there are backup plans.
I just wanted to say too that there are backup plans in case if there isn't a merger inthe future, there will be a worked for preservation of these wonderful programs.
(24:22):
So what does the deadline look like for the state?
What does that pressure look like for Indiana University to come up with?
uh
fall, fall 2026.
That's their deadline.
It's right there in that article, the click link to the listing where it lists theBachelors of Science in Ballet.
It's fall 2026-27 with graduate out for anyone enrolled prior.
(24:46):
So you're saying that any changes would be for students entering the university in thefall of 2026, so a year from now.
OK, so em is the thinking, and maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but why wouldn't youjust have anything that involves the performing arts all in one college?
Like musical theater, contemporary dance, ballet, music, opera, all of it.
(25:11):
If you are performing for an audience, why
That makes sense to consolidate all of that.
Is that kind of what the thinking is?
Yeah, think, well, I don't know.
I mean, I can't really speak to the future, but I think you're speaking to the heart of, Imean, our dean here at Jacobs, you know, really loves that aspect of compelling audiences
(25:35):
with music, with um all that we have to offer as artists.
I don't know what the future holds, but I mean, you're speaking, I think you're speakingright to like,
logic with your words.
is that, so from what I understand, and I know it's not all finalized, but the thinking isat the very least contemporary dance would move, would be combined with ballet in one
(26:00):
college, department, whatever you want to call it, right?
ah But in terms of like the impact on students, it sounds to me like there's no impact onstudents in terms of coursework or any of that.
ah
because of the combining of these programs to allow for a single major in a dance, in someconcentration on dance, correct?
(26:30):
Okay.
write that and I'll email it to a bunch of people.
Exactly.
That's the hope for that.
No, that's that.
That is the hope for the future, as I said, and I have said and will say, like, it's notnothing is nothing is ratified by the major players yet, meaning the the wonderful faculty
that are involved in contemporary dance, the wonderful individuals that are part of this.
(26:53):
greater mission.
We want to make sure my family, everybody is having their summer vacations right now.
uh But so making sure that everyone gets a chance to build the future together is really,really important.
But you've said it exactly what it would look like as we have hopes and dreams of itbeing.
(27:15):
Yeah, I think that's really important too to reiterate the fact that all of the staff ison vacation and no one is in their offices making decisions other than like the department
heads.
Is that true?
I really appreciate you saying that.
Yes, that was the I was at the beach, uh you know, and I like I like I love what I do.
(27:40):
And so I like saturate myself in studio time and until like the last week in June, thefirst week in July, which is like sacred.
Mom is with us time.
It's like, what is happening on my iPhone?
Like
for a large portion of last week to put down, like I said, like I'm not mad about like ifyour program, if this podcast were to go away and no one said anything, how much would
(28:13):
that hurt your feelings?
Like ours is just our program.
I'm gonna like, I'm getting feclempt, but like we were even, you know, hinted at goingaway or not hinted at, we were like, uh
encapsulated headline as going away and the number of people that reached out to me likethis can't happen, um we want to help, was just breathtaking.
(28:41):
you know, everyone I wrote to I feel thankful for and I feel badly for all the familiesactually that were in any kind of fear, my current students' families that were in any
kind of fear.
m It's always hard to get around
a headline that makes us feel something incredible.
(29:01):
It's hard to change that uh passion, but you don't need pitchforks for this departmentyet.
I'll let you know when that happens for sure.
and fear.
I.
I think there's a lot of people like, that's, I'm glad you were able to kind of quell thefear because there, there were a lot of people who were like, my God, the Indiana Valley
(29:24):
program is getting eliminated.
What are we going to do?
But I do have a question.
This is actually a question from a listener.
So we, we just put the word out like, Hey, we're talking to Sarah Roth.
We want to get the real story.
And then we just got flooded with questions.
And one I thought was really interesting.
They were asking uh what percentage, and I went to a state school, so I know the wholein-state, out-of-state thing.
(29:48):
uh What percentage of current ballet majors are Indiana residents, and will any changes bemade to admit more Indiana residents to the program?
No, is um application, I believe processes have been altered in some way for Indianaresidents, allowing them.
um I don't even know the details on that, but nothing in our admissions is changing.
(30:15):
are still, uh do we enjoy your dancing is our process.
of selecting students.
So um no, the very short, very easy, truthful answer is absolutely nothing is changingwith regard to Indiana residents versus out-of-state residents.
I actually don't know the concrete number of our dancers that are Indiana residents.
(30:37):
I couldn't tell you.
I think it's um somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 % or fewer, just because there aresome really
great schools in Indiana for training, but it's really, you show up, you dance withpassion and joy.
Do you take class like you enjoy taking class?
(30:58):
Okay, let's work together.
um And it will always be that for us.
Really pedigree is not the story here.
No matter what, it's how do you do in the audition, which is very much like it is in theprofessional world.
Okay, so we're gonna continue to dive into our listener questions, because we've got somany.
(31:18):
So um what is the current number of ballet professors for the 2025-26 year, and how willthat change, especially if you merge with the contemporary dance uh program?
Will there be overlapping professors that could possibly lose their positions?
No, the answer is no.
(31:39):
There's no change planned for the future at all.
To our numbers, we have the same professors for next year that we do currently.
We have uh six sort of core teachers for our ballet majors and two additional lecturerswho help out.
um One lecturer position was visiting anyway, and we extended her one year, and she'll bewith us one year more.
(32:07):
There's no change.
As I mentioned before, we are a successful entity.
We are not going anywhere.
We are not on growing changes.
We're just going to keep on keeping on doing what we do.
yeah, that's answer.
take the next breath or you want okay um has the state of indiana oh nope i asked that onesorry no sorry this is the taxpayer one hold on has the state of indiana indicated they
(32:40):
require state-funded schools to admit more state residents to benefit indiana taxpayers
I had to ask about this one and no, there are new requirements about acceptingapplications from Indiana residents, which is what I tried to mention accurately earlier.
So there are new requirements about accepting applications to Indiana University as anentity, but not to admitting students in any way, shape or form.
(33:11):
Yeah, and I think it's interesting because honestly, the ballet program is pretty small.
I know, so I went to the University of Wisconsin at Madison.
And when I was there, was 85 % in-state, 15 % out-of-state.
Like that was just, those were the numbers.
it was a very, the getting in from out-of-state was harder than getting in from in-statejust because of that.
(33:31):
And that was always kind of the standard for the Big Ten public universities.
ah But I would think like it wouldn't affect you guys as much because
the number of people applying to the engineering school versus the business school versusballet.
Like you probably have a lot more latitude than like, you know, the engineering schooldoes.
(33:53):
Yeah, exactly.
So, um.
Bye, Brett.
No, no, no, go ahead.
In the last five years, how many Jacobs Academy Ballet students auditioned for the Balletmajor and how many were accepted?
Yeah, in the past four years, Jacobs Academy, just for anyone who know, it's a umpre-college
(34:18):
program for dancers in the local community of Bloomington.
We've had four applicants in the past five years and one has been admitted to the program.
It's really just a part of that.
we, we look for what's best for the dancers.
Sometimes being with us isn't what's best for the dancer.
We have those conversations on an individual basis.
(34:40):
We have a really high standard as a program and we just want to work with uh everyone tofind them their best self.
And um
Yeah, and that's where we are.
Can you talk about what Jacobs Academy, like is it just a ballet school for kids beforecollege?
just a local community ballet school that uses our studios after.
um I teach for those classes once a week.
(35:02):
We try and do a little bit of a faculty rotation in offering those students theopportunity to work with us.
They're in all of our productions that involve children.
They were in Phil Chon and Doug Fullington's um Star on the Rise by Adair.
And they were also in Art Knuckcracker every year.
um
It's a really wonderful program.
(35:22):
have two new directors of that program, Rebecca Janes and Robin Allen, and they took overas full directors this past year.
So it's undergone curricular changes and um in an attempt to really unify uh the work thatthey're doing and uh really make sure it offers a vocational training for students, but
(35:44):
also pre-professional opportunities where those dancers need that guidance.
But so that's what it is.
It's largely Bloomington community and around Indiana students.
And we try and provide them with all the joy and passion that we feel in dance.
And I think the opportunity to teach that population is a really important aspect of ourprogram.
(36:07):
Many of our majors teach for the Jacobs Academy program and it offers them sometimes theirfirst teaching opportunity.
Sometimes as it was with me when I was a student here, the opportunity to realize
really realize how much you love teaching, how much you love that connection with studentsand building that important ballet relationship that guides mentor and mentee within the
(36:35):
studio.
Sure.
students do by service doing the ballet at cabin?
We would need to consult the directors for the exact number.
I believe there are about 150 in their end of year performance this past spring.
And that incorporated students from the age of three all the way to the age of 18.
(36:57):
So it's a program for creative ballet and intro to ballet and really get students dancingfor the first time.
That's really nice.
That's nice community outreach too.
it's wonderful.
It's really wonderful.
And like I said, seeing the majors sort of remember their beginnings is a really importantpart.
(37:19):
You always learn more when you teach.
That's true in any subject in any field.
If you can explain it to someone else, you digest that information in such a moreimportant way.
And for me as a dancer, I graduated from here.
I had taught not only for the pre-college ballet program that's now called the JacobsAcademy Ballet Program, um but I had taught classes for our elective program students who
(37:42):
are enrolled adults through the university.
And I went to Boston Ballet and the first thing I did when I realized how much time I hadon my hands as a professional dancer was say I would love the opportunity to teach for the
school.
And Miko Nisenan said, yeah, just check in with.
you know, offer your services to the principal.
(38:03):
So I think that that identity that we get the opportunity to give every dancer, becausemost dancers at some point in time in their career are going to be asked to teach a class,
even if it's just like this group of donors needs a class to have fun and feel what itfeels like to be a ballerina for an evening.
We'll have the opportunity to teach class at some point.
(38:25):
Okay, so let's keep going with our listener questions.
The next one is what percentage of ballet majors receive paying contracts right aftergraduation?
Great, um I love this question.
always get this question at our, we, every audition Friday, we have a little post auditionQ and A, and I usually have dancers uh answer questions, but I usually get this question
(38:48):
from the group.
I mean, the honest and forthright answer is it varies year to year because every year is adifferent playing field of opportunity for graduates.
Every group is different, every individual is different in their work ethic and the timethey spend on their reels and what the work is they put in.
This past graduate in class was 16.
(39:12):
Two dancers got unpaid contracts.
We had 75 % get paid positions upon graduating.
Six of those positions were full company contracts.
The rest were...
Yeah, yeah, the numbers were, I mean, really good.
That doesn't mean next year will be those numbers.
(39:34):
And that's why it gets, it gets a little harrowing.
um But, you know, we do a lot of work with them on preparing their reels, on coaching themin the process.
This past year, we invited five artistic directors to teach class here, which I thinkreally helped.
It not only helped, you can get lost in Bloomington, Indiana, believe it or not, andpeople don't actually know what happens here.
(39:58):
I had a friend come teach this past spring in May who came in and he looked at the studiosand he was like, this is it.
It's three studios and this is where all the magic happens.
Like, I don't know what I thought it was, but I thought it, you know what I mean?
And it was kind of, it was really touching because we do so much here.
um yeah, every year won't look like this, but we do a lot to try and make sure thesestudents are exposed.
(40:27):
And these students uh really work, really work on themselves to be their best self so thatwhen they go and get an audition or a job and they go and they're in front of someone,
they know who they are and they know what they want to share.
That's pretty fantastic though, 75 % is, mean, that's, there aren't a lot of schools thatcan say that.
(40:50):
know, college or, you know, pre-pro training, that's like, that's pretty darn good.
So somebody else asked, what about the percentage of contemporary students receivingpaying contracts right after graduation?
I don't have any of that information because I'm not an expert on that program.
sure, that's totally fair.
ah And then this is another one about the contemporary program.
(41:15):
How will the contemporary minor be impacted?
And will it still exist if it's under Jacob's going forward?
OK.
because it's all still hypothetical.
But all I can say is the hope is that everything or the plan or the I don't know whichword is the most concrete, least concrete word I can just describe it is that everything
(41:42):
maintains the goodness that it has built if this merger goes through to its completion.
one thing that somebody asked, and I maybe just didn't realize this, is it's saying, willit still be non-audition for the contemporary program?
Is the contemporary program a non-audition program?
(42:05):
I know.
I would say I think that they have an audition, I am again, I don't want to speak tothings that I don't know, because that's not nobody good at that.
says it's the minor though.
So maybe it's like if you do a minor it's not.
Oh yeah, maybe.
They have a minor in dance currently.
(42:25):
They have a dance minor that they've provided for through a myriad of uh elective courses.
A lot have taken ballet courses.
There's actually a tremendous amount of crossover already.
One of our beloved faculty members, Christian Claassen, already teaches ballet to thecontemporary dance majors.
um So I would imagine everything will be preserved in the entity of success that it is,but I don't know.
(42:52):
So I don't want to.
I'll just blanket with this is I know it is still early days.
I know you haven't voted yet, but will the physical studio space change for the balletprogram if the contemporary is merged into a combined degree?
No, if it is merged into a combined degree, the hope uh through all conversations is thatresources maintain themselves, which is budget, is spaces, which is performance venues,
(43:20):
which is studio space.
Where we can share, we will, but where we have, we will keep.
ah Because resources is what we fear most in the arts.
Encroachment on resources is the perilous factor.
And I think everybody knows that.
So in these conversations, that's where we've been.
(43:42):
And that's with, I think that's with every entity on campus, anywhere anyone looks tomerge, it's a conversation about resources.
um So that hasn't happened yet, but they know that we are in a space where we're evenlooking to have more resources for ballets.
So that is not a part of the conversation.
(44:05):
Okay, one more question about contemporary because I think people are very concerned aboutthis.
Under a merger, will ballet students be required to audition against contemporary studentsfor roles in ballet?
That I can speak to that we are not merging, ballet is not merging its program with anyother program.
(44:29):
Like our program, our curriculum, our dancers, our ballets are maintaining themselves forthe protection of and best uh benefits to our dancers.
So that's not a part of future planning.
Do contemporary majors ever end up in productions that you guys stage out, know, quote,out of the ballet department?
(44:57):
We did this amazing collaboration pre-pandemic, so was like 42 years ago, um where we didum Deuce Coop by Dwyle a Tharp.
I don't know if you've ever known that ballet, but it's to all Beach Boys music.
It's an incredible feat that ABT ended up doing the year after we did it.
(45:19):
And so our majors, as they were resurrecting this piece from this footage that was blurry,
and we were trying to put together, what's that dancer doing?
It was the first time it had been revitalized and it has contemporary dancers, because atthe time it was Twyla Tharp's company built on, I believe it was Joffrey Ballet.
(45:40):
So it was like ballet dancers and contemporary dancers unified together on one stage tothe Beach Boys music.
I was actually just thinking about it the other night because I heard Surfing USA and it'sthis amazing section where the contemporary dancers, she just has them run and slide like
they're surfing across the stage the whole time, cemented in my brain.
(46:03):
But we did that and that was on the Mac stage and then we performed also at their venueover at the College of Arts and Sciences, which was incredible as well.
So it gave more opportunity to everyone to perform twice.
And that was awesome to have everyone in the studio together kind of appreciating.
each other for the differences in movement quality and the different sensibilities that weall have.
(46:25):
um That was really, really fun.
So we have done it in the past in that way.
I had a contemporary dancer who joined me for a performance this past May um just becauseof uh a credit issue that they needed help with.
And I was willing to open up sort of our ensemble to help them out.
um Yeah.
(46:46):
But it's not something that's crazy or could never happen in the future.
But it was with kind of the integrity of both programs showing how wonderful they are atonce, which was cool.
think there might be a little bit of a fear from the, maybe from the parents of futureballet students that the competition might get even stiffer than it already is.
(47:09):
But it sounds like that it's kind of like, I don't want to say the exception to the rule,but it's kind of the exception.
Yeah, that's absolutely the exception to the rule.
the thing is, is contemporary ballet, contemporary movement is something every balletdancer needs.
So if I was to say that we would open up our contemporary works to allowing contemporarydancers to take those works from ballet dancers that need to move in that way, it would be
(47:35):
like throwing out a textbook.
that I desperately needed for our students to study.
that again, that's where the curriculums have to maintain their integrity if any kind ofemerge is to happen.
And it's a way where we can learn from each other in the best ways possible.
Ballet dancers are terrified of improvisation because we like to be told what to do.
(47:56):
with specificity.
I think that that's where that's a course that they offer that I would love for ourdancers to dip into.
uh
You know, there's ways that we can learn from each other if it is a combination thathappens in the future.
I think either way, there's so many ways that we can learn from each other.
(48:18):
Will funding be affected for ballet-only performances?
Not at all.
Sorry to be so fast.
I interrupt to do not at all.
No, no.
Resort.
No, let's do it.
uh
the, I love the emphatic.
Absolutely not.
No, absolutely not.
That is not a part of the, that's not a part of any conversation.
(48:40):
As I mentioned, it's administrative.
It's, it's curricular in the sense of curricular organization, not content, not planning,and not restrictions on, on content.
and not for admission.
No.
No.
So if contemporary moves into Jacobs, I assume the leadership would come with it and thatit would be run as its own.
(49:08):
It's essentially a physical move more than anything else.
Yeah, no matter what, it's not going to be uh like me pretending like I understand themand it's not going to be them pretending like they understand me and it's not going to be
any other entity that would come along for the ride.
this, I think the beauty of higher education are these individuals, these artists thathave studied their craft.
(49:35):
that bring knowledge, that bring research.
Like when you're looking across the university, these individuals that have their passionin the subject matter they're teaching, having those individuals at the helm of their own
decision making is really, really crucial to curriculums being effective.
And that's all we want to be is uh do the best for our students, make the best choices forour students to be successful.
(50:02):
And that's true no matter what.
on into the future.
So as we're wrapping up this conversation, I just want to maybe calm a whole lot of nervesfor all of those listeners out there who are interested in applying to Indiana, whose kids
(50:24):
are coming to Indiana.
How will future changes be communicated to incoming students as plans are finalized?
This is great.
And this is where the fear comes from.
Actually, my beloved um mentor, Gwyn Richards, who got me this job as the chair here atthe Jacobs School Music, um or he was part of a group that got me this job, probably
(50:52):
including myself, maybe I can give myself some credit, um was he said, the absence of aclear...
the absence of clear communication.
think I've said this on the podcast before, so I'm not revealing anything new.
oh
In fact, I say Sarah Roth says, the absence of communication becomes the narrative.
I say it all the time now.
I want to put it on a shirt.
(51:13):
It is fantastic.
make a shirt, make a ballet help dress shirt.
The absence of clear communication creates a narrative and that narrative is neverpositive.
And I think that's exactly what we have here, right?
We had a headline, we had uh a moment for ballet at Jacobs that looked perilous andterrifying for students who have looked to us as a light for their future.
(51:37):
In the future, all these changes.
If this goes through, if everything that I've talked about becomes uh realized, the newswill be clear.
It will come from our Jacobs School of Music Communications office.
It will hopefully come through some dance media, dance news entity.
(51:57):
um It will be broadcast on social media via our channels at IUJSong and at IU JacobsBallet.
oh We will make sure that communication is clear to our families, to any studentsapplying.
It will appear in admissions materials and in admissions communication.
oh It will be clearly communicated from us.
(52:22):
And I think that's the best possible way to source your panic.
from the direct source.
Don't source your panic from secondary sources as much as possible.
And if you need anything, if you have questions, feel free to reach out to me.
Feel free to email me.
It's SWROTH at IU.edu.
(52:44):
And I'm happy to be, you know, explain whatever I can.
Again, I can't answer questions on final details where faculty haven't been consulted andproper processes haven't gone through because we're in
the glorious summer of the university.
once things are finalized, this is going to be an exciting piece of news from the school.
(53:07):
So we will share as we can.
Ballet at Indiana University is not going anywhere.
Ballet at Indiana University is not going anywhere.
Yes.
think that's a great place to leave it.
Sarah, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about that we have not covered here?
Any information that you feel like we didn't touch on that you wanted to share with ourlisteners?
(53:31):
No, I think you crushed it.
Just that.
um We will always be a place where knowledge and dance can blend.
What makes us so strong is we don't exist everywhere.
We're not at every university, a program that focuses on classical ballet training for thefuture.
um We will always be here.
(53:54):
trying to find those jobs in the classical ballet field for our dancers.
Thank you so much for having me.
I truly respect this podcast and I was so thrilled when you invited me on.
Thank you.
you so much for taking your time out of your really busy summer and beach time with thekids and we very much appreciate it.
So thank you so much for joining us today.
(54:15):
No problem, thank you.
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