July 29, 2024 • 51 mins
Authors Nora Phoenix and E.M. Lindsey discuss their first-time collaboration on the series "Honorably Discharged," which kicked off with the grumpy/sunshine, hurt/comfort romance "Creek." Nora and E.M. talk about deciding to write together, coming up with the series premise, and offer some details on the next installment. Plus, we also find out what they're working on separately, and get some book recommendations too.
Complete show notes for episode 459 along with a transcript of the show are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com.
Look for the next episode of Big Gay Fiction Podcast on Monday, August 12.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Jeff:] Coming up on this episode, Nora Phoenix and E.M. Lindsey are
(00:03):
here to talk about their collaboration on the new series, "Honorably Discharged."
Hello, Rainbow Romance Reader. Welcome to episode 459 of the Big Gay Fiction Podcast,
the show for avid readers and passionate fans of queer romance fiction. I'm Jeff,
(00:23):
and it's great to have you here for another episode of the show.
As always, this podcast is brought to you in part by our remarkable community on Patreon.
If you'd like more information about what we offer to patrons,
including the opportunity to ask questions to our guests,
just like Mary does in this very episode, go to patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast.
(00:44):
And don't forget, you can get book recommendations delivered to your email box with the Rainbow
Romance Reader report. It's a look at books that are new and coming soon that we are excited
about. Plus we also have recommendations for you about what we're currently reading and watching.
You can sign up for the Rainbow Romance Reader report at biggayfictionpodcast.com/report.
(01:06):
And we're gonna get right into our conversation with Nora Phoenix and E.M. Lindsey. They have
both been on the podcast in the past talking about their books. Nora was on most recently
in episode 250, talking about her paranormal side with "Omega's Truth," while E.M. joined us
in episode 409, talking about their "Loose Lips Sink Ships" duology. Now, earlier this month,
(01:27):
Nora and E.M. released their first ever collaboration, a grumpy/sunshine romance
called "Creek," which kicks off the "Honorably Discharged" series. They tell us all about what
brought them together, how they decided the stories that they wanted to tell, and what's
still to come in the series. Plus, we get some details on what they're working on separately too.
[Jeff:] Nora and E.M.,
(01:48):
welcome back to the show. It's great to have you both here together this time.
[E.M.:] I am excited.
[Nora:] Thank you.
[Jeff:] Yeah. I'm super excited that we get to talk about "Creek." And before we
get into the book itself, I'd love to know what brought you two together to
co-write for the first time in this collaboration.
[E.M.:] We just came up with. We floated the idea at GRL 2022. The last day that we were there,
(02:15):
we were hanging out in the lobby and talking and I don't remember how it got… But yeah,
we kicked around the idea. And then a couple months later we got on a chat and started
thinking about what would be a good fit for both of our voices.
(02:37):
[Nora:] I think it was also like, first of all, we really hit it off personally. And
to me that's really important is you have to click with somebody to be able to write
together because it's a very creative endeavor and you're gonna spend a lot of time going
back and forth and communicating. So there has to be a level of friendship and trust.
(02:58):
But also I think… I was telling E.M. the other day. It was funny. I was
reorganizing my Kindle and it tells you who are your favorite authors. There's
one author I own more books of than of E.M. But they're my second favorite author on my
Kindle. So I've just been a huge fan for years and that's a great start.
(03:24):
I think our styles are similar yet different. I think we bring similar things to the table,
that we both like complex characters and characters that are a little different. But
we also have our unique styles and I was super excited to write. And it's been really fun.
(03:44):
[Jeff:] It's so great. As we're talking, it comes out in two days and you're both just
smiling so big about the collaboration and the book. That's just wonderful.
[E.M.:] It was fun. It was so much fun to write this book. Like I'm so
excited for the next guy, too. I love these guys.
(04:09):
[Nora:] Well, I think in a collaboration what you wanna see is that you feed off each other,
that you bring out the best in each other as a writer and in the creative process. And that is
something that really happened for us. And I think that's what makes the book so much fun for us.
And also… I mean, it's very un-Dutch to brag, but also what makes the book so good is that,
(04:37):
I think you feel that when you read it, is that the fun that we had creating it,
and the way that we played off each other, and the characters interacted. I think there's a lot
of banter in there and I think that really brought out the strength in both of us.
[Jeff:] Where did the idea for "Creek" itself and, at a larger prospect,
(05:01):
the "Honorably Discharged" series come from? Was it some of those initial conversations,
or did it just weed its way out as you talked more?
[Nora:] I think it started with the desire of having representation in a lot of ways,
but especially in terms of disabilities and having characters who are facing challenges.
(05:28):
And I think that's how we came up with the idea. Oh, military guys would be really
good for that because a lot of them bring both physical limitations or challenges, but also a
lot of mental baggage to the table. And that's where we started. We both like our wounded men.
[E.M.:] Yeah. The wounded hero.
(05:49):
[Nora:] Yeah. So I think that was just how we… And found family is a theme in both of our books. So
we really wanted to create that found family. And that's how we came up with, what if we have these
veterans who are sharing a house? So we really create that found family and then each with
(06:09):
their own challenge and their own limitations. And that's where we started with that, I think.
[Jeff:] The found family aspect and the idea of putting them into this house
really struck me as such a wonderful romance series kind of builder. Cause
now you could build a story for each one of these guys. They've got their support
(06:30):
system in the house. It naturally extends to them, moving along through this series.
And it's different than just roommates too. Cause you think about roommates who are like,
newly out of college in their twenties. But these are slightly older guys, certainly people
who've lived a lot of life and now you've given them this support system of being roommates.
(06:52):
[Nora:] Yeah, with Nash, who is like the oldest of the group. And who was their officer,
like their guy in charge. He's like the central figure. He's like their daddy,
but not like the daddy daddy. I think what is just so wonderful is these guys are a
(07:16):
little lost in their own way. And, by the way, Nash thinks he's got it all figured out and...
[E.M.:] He doesn't. He will.
[Nora:] Yeah, we've got some fun stuff planned for him. But, yeah. And it was E.M.'s idea to
set the book in San Francisco. So that was that was their idea, which I loved. I've never been.
(07:41):
[E.M.:] It's wonderful. You should.
[Nora:] Yeah, I know it's on the list, but you know, so many places to travel,
not enough time. Even with how much traveling I do.
[Jeff:] Come to the west, come to the west.
[Nora:] I know.
[Jeff:] What are readers going to find in "Creek?” You've got one of my favorite things. You've got a
(08:04):
grumpy veteran and a sunshine surfer for them to irritate each other for a while
before everything clicks into place. It's “Oh, maybe I like you after all.” What's their story?
[E.M.:] Well, Heath's story, he was in a motorcycle accident. They meet in PT
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and they both have essentially the same injury. And so Heath,
he is a sunshine character, but he's also dealing with this major change
to his life. He's a volleyball coach. He's a P.E. Teacher of high school.
And so it was really fun to explore the way that he lets himself be, eventually,
(08:49):
become a little bit more vulnerable rather than projecting the same, he's all smiles,
and he is got it all figured out, and he's just fine. He starts out, especially Creek,
when Creek looks at him, Creek looks at this guy who thinks… he thinks that Heath is,
just fine. And so the more he gets to know him,
(09:09):
the more that kind of realizes that Heath might not be all as put together as he thinks he is.
[Nora:] Yeah. Well, and then we have Creek,
who is basically a grumpy ass and but I also like. I had a lot of empathy for him because
he's a soldier. The army was his life and it was ripped away from him before he was
(09:34):
ready in a way that was very unexpected and very traumatic, obviously, and not by choice.
And when something is such a big part of your identity, that really changes
you. So it's not just the physical change of losing a limb and adapting to that, but also
what does that mean for you? Who are you if you are no longer in the army, if you are no longer
(09:59):
this person that you thought you were?
And I think that was really fascinating for me to explore. What does it mean when you've
made something your identity and that is taken from you? How does that affect you? And that
being said, we may make the book sound a little more angsty than it is, cause it's really not.
(10:20):
[E.M.:] It's not, I honestly looked forward to getting Nora's chapters every time cause I was
cracking up the whole time. Like the banter, especially between the guys in the house,
is phenomenal. It's so funny. So yeah, there's definitely angst. Between me and Nora,
there's definitely your angst there. But there's a lot of lighthearted stuff in there.
(10:43):
[Nora:] Yeah, I think we really found the balance. I mean, like E.M. said,
we're both known for writing angstier books and it's not something that we
shied away from. But we also wanted to find that balance between the humor,
and the fun stuff, and the lighthearted moments, and obviously the romance,
and the more serious stuff. And I think we really hit the right spot there. The sweet spot.
(11:12):
[Jeff:] I'm glad you brought that up because I think it's good for readers to know that. But
also you've talked about it being so much fun to write and angst doesn't always lead itself
to being fun to write? it's a different kind of catharsis, so, yeah. I'm glad you
brought up that there is. There is lightness amongst some of that angst that's there too.
(11:38):
[Nora:] Oh yeah, for sure. There's plenty of humor like E.M. said, especially between the
guys in the house, between Creek and the other guys. There's like the banter that you expect
between guys in the army who are maybe not always the cleanest in terms of jokes, but there's this
real sense of brotherhood underneath. And that's really what also makes it feel warm,
(12:04):
and like the family is… they are a family. It's a different kind of family, but they are family.
[E.M.:] I got to play around a little bit cause I have a high schooler. So I
got to play around with the fun of what it's like to be around teenagers when I
was writing. When I was writing Heath at school with his students, that was fun.
(12:28):
[Nora:] I had to laugh whenever because I have a high schooler too. My son is going
into junior year this year and it's so much fun to read that cause you're like,
“Yep, I could totally see that happen.” They're a breed in itself, teenagers.
[Jeff:] Was there any particular kind of research you had to do,
(12:48):
to not only deal with what these guys are going through physically and their PT, but
also to accurately represent some of the veterans and being in this house kind of situation too?
[Nora:] Yeah. I did, I tried to do as much research as I could on the Army and the
(13:09):
procedures. Made some calls to figure out how does that work. How long do you stay on the payroll,
for lack of a better word? What are your options? But we also invited some beta readers
with firsthand Army experience to read the book because we wanted to make sure we got that right.
And they picked up on some stupid stuff that we still got wrong. So we had to make some changes,
(13:34):
which is great because I think the book is much better for it. And that's why I
love having beta readers. They picked up on some really good stuff and it's made the book better.
But yeah, we tried to be as accurate as possible while still having some creative freedom. As
I say in the beginning, like the biggest… like technically it's… I wouldn't say it's a mistake,
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but it's a choice we make. There's no army post near San Francisco. So technically they couldn't
live there if Creek was still on active duty and receiving still care from the VA.
That's a detail we chose to ignore and say, you know what? We'll invent an army post
there. I don't care, like whatever. It's set in San Francisco. That's the creative
(14:21):
freedom that we took. Other than that, we really try to be as accurate as possible.
[Jeff:] It's great to have a good team of beta readers
that you can kinda reach out to for that kind of thing, to get it right.
[Nora:] Yeah, I think you have to.
[E.M.:] Yeah.
[Nora:] Both for the Army stuff and, I always try to do sensitivity readers as
(14:42):
well. There's stuff you miss and it's as simple as... I mean, for me it's even more
because I'm not a native English speaker. I didn't grow up in this country. So I'm
missing out on some cultural stuff that I'm always very open to get feedback on.
But also like terminology changes. I was writing a line somewhere about the handicapped parking
(15:08):
and that was flagged by sensitivity reader as that's accessible parking. That's the
preferred term. That's great. I'm so happy somebody pointed that out cause that's how
you learn is by somebody saying, “Hey, there's a better word for this.” I love
that. I love learning like that. Language evolves and so do we as humans, if we try.
(15:30):
[Jeff:] Got a few questions from Mary, who's a member of our Patreon community. She picked up
on some stuff that I wanna know too, cause I love talking to collaborators. She's curious,
at a broad level, what the process was for this collaboration and how was the
work split up? How did you pass things off between each other? Tell us everything.
(15:53):
[E.M.:] So we started with a couple of Zoom chats where we plotted out the first kind of
overarching story that we wanted to tell. And then, the big points we wanted to hit
and when we wanted to hit them in the book. We did a lot of plotting with who the guys were,
their backgrounds and everything, so we could start them out as fully formed characters. That
(16:20):
took a couple weeks, but it was really nice to get that, kinda the start of the series bible going.
[Nora:] And then we basically divided the characters. So we each wrote a character, which
I also think, because we wrote in first person, works out really well because it's perfectly okay
for the characters to sound different because their POV is different. So it's a very natural
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distinction between the two characters and the back and forth was like super easy.
E.M. and I are both really fast writers, which is amazing. That being said,
there's definitely been a period where I wasn't able to write for reasons,
cause we both have kids and lives and somebody moved and we had family stuff and more family
(17:12):
stuff and kids and somebody moved and. It was just super, super easy and I was so
looking forward to getting the chapters each time I was like, “I got new chapter, yay.”
[E.M.:] Yeah. It was every time we had to take a break, it was very easy to come back to.
It really didn't feel like we took time off, which was nice because even when
(17:36):
there was a larger gap in time I didn't feel disconnected from the characters.
[Nora:] No, and I think, ideally, you want to step away from a book for a little bit because
it also gives you a creative distance and you notice different things. If you haven't looked
at it for a couple of weeks and then you read it again, you go, “Oh, hey,
(17:57):
I missed that the first time. We should sharpen this, or I think we should go in this direction.”
So, all in all, I actually think it made the book better to step away from
it from a little bit and then pick it up again. But yeah, it's been a super easy,
easy process between us. Google Docs. That's the only downside. I hate Google Docs.
[E.M.:] It worked.
(18:18):
[Nora:] Not much alternatives there, but yeah.
[Jeff:] Do your plotting styles mesh together? Cause I know sometimes there's collaborators
who plot one way and the other one plots a different way. Or sometimes one’s a plotter,
one's a pantser. Some people are in between. Did that mesh well?
[E.M.:] Yeah, definitely. I'm always an in-betweener. I like to have a
(18:40):
general idea of where I'm going, but my characters don't like to follow plot lines.
[Nora:] No, neither do mine. I think we needed the framework. And I think that's why in the beginning
we did a lot of plotting. We needed the framework of the bigger story of who are these guys? How
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did they end up in San Francisco? Where did they live? What does that look like? Once we had that,
we just needed to figure out the beats of the first story that we wanted to hit.
Like it's an enemies to lovers, so you wanna establish the animosity between
them. But you also wanna establish that connection that disguises himself
(19:22):
as hate because Creek is an idiot and he doesn't realize it's something else. Hey,
man needs some time to figure that shit out. Once you have beats, we didn't plot in detail.
There was a lot of freedom for us to say, “Hey, I felt like this would be a good move. Or, Creek
decided on this or Heath wanted this.” That's characters for you. They do stuff by themselves.
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[E.M.:] Yeah.
[Nora:] Yeah.
[Jeff:] How many times did one of you pick up a chapter and go, “Oh, we're going that way now.”
[E.M.:] I mean, not anything shocking. I actually liked it. I found it more
inspiring cause I would have an idea of like where I wanted Heath to go next,
but then Nora would write something and I would be like, “Oh, you know what would be perfect
(20:09):
then for this.” It was nice. Because sometimes also I would feel stuck and then she would send
me her chapter and I'd be like, “All right, that's perfect.” To have the perfect idea.
[Nora:] Yeah, and it also changed a few times because originally we had an epilogue going
a certain way, and then we added some chapters at the end and figured out,
(20:30):
okay, this epilogue isn't working. The epilogue needs to come from a different
place and we need to take it in a different direction. But it ended up being better.
So I think that's, to me, that's the strength of a good collaboration is that you, like I said,
you bring out the best in each other and with that creativity, you're like, “Oh,
I hadn't thought of it that way.” We can take it this way. And so that's been really fun.
(20:55):
[Jeff:] How has this been different than the other collaborations you've had? Because both of you
have co-written in the past. How does this kind of sit in the collaborations that you've done,
and anything new and interesting kind of pop up in terms of how you've collaborated?
[E.M.:] Well, this is my first time writing in first person. Well, I've done a couple of
(21:18):
things in first person, but so that was new for me. And it did make sense to just go back
and forth that way. With my other collab, I mostly collab with Kiki Clark, and we
write both characters cause it's third person and it's easier to mesh our voices that way.
So yeah, it was different. It was different. And also, of course,
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Nora also does write a lot faster than any of my other past co-authors. So it's I'm very… I
don't care. Like I go with the flow. But it was nice to have somebody match my speed.
[Nora:] Yeah.
[Jeff:] Nice.
[Nora:] Yeah, like I said, we're both really fast writers, so it happened regularly that I would
(22:03):
send a chapter to them in the morning and we're talking like a 3,000 word chapter. And then by the
end of the day I would have a 3,000 word chapter back. Well, that's 6,000 words in one day. You do
that 12 days and you have a full book. So, once we are at full steam, we can do it really fast.
(22:24):
I've only co-written with Kyleen Neuhold, which had been a while. So I hadn't been co-writing
for a while. That was first person too, though first person present tense. This is past tense.
It doesn't make a difference to me. Although I don't even think I told you, I'd almost
finished a chapter and suddenly realized that I'd written in third person. I was like, shit.
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[E.M.:] I did that too. I didn't say anything, but I did it too.
[Nora:] I was like, oh. That's because I do write the collab in between my own stuff.
And I was writing, cause my own books are partially first and partially third person.
So somehow third person was still in my head. So I had to rewrite the chapter,
which I mean, it's a bit of work, but not that bad. But I had to laugh. I'm like,
(23:10):
yeah, you better get your shit together before you send that off. But yeah, just super easy,
super fast. And yeah, fun. That's all I can say. Lot of fun. Yeah.
[Jeff:] First and third person. That's such a thing. I love to write in first,
and if I have to write in third,
it just breaks my brain for a while on how to even do that anymore, so I appreciate…
(23:34):
[Nora:] It's very different. And it's because I write… so my Dragon books are third person
because they're romantic suspense and so they're a continuing series and I keep checking in with
previous characters, which is why you need the third person. Cause in any book I might have 6,
7, 8 different points of view, so you need third person. It's what I've written most. I'm very used
(23:58):
to it. But I do need a couple of paragraphs to switch and go, okay brain, we're doing this today.
[Jeff:] For you, E.M., how was it to do that,
like for the first time? Was that a mind bending activity like I know it is for some?
[E.M.:] It was… I have a why choose series. And then I also had a short novel. It was
(24:22):
a holiday one that I did in first person. That one was in first person present tense.
I just wanted to see if I could do it. I actually had a lot of fun. It was nice to
change it up. I was feeling a little bit of a burnout at the time because again,
like Nora said, I was in the middle of a move. And so it was nice. It made me feel
(24:43):
almost refreshed in a way. And it didn't feel like a slog when I was writing it,
or it didn't really feel like work. This book didn't really feel like work, which was nice.
[Nora:] I agree.
[E.M.:] Yeah, it wasn't… I had my struggles with it and I had to rewrite several paragraphs
throughout all of my chapters, especially if I was switching back and forth. But I enjoyed it.
(25:06):
[Nora:] Very easy. I think one of the easiest books I've written in terms of how easy the words
came. Creek's voice was just very natural to me. And I'm not a grumpy person at all.
[E.M.:] You did it well cause he was very grumpy. But he was delightful.
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[Nora:] And I think the first chapters, when I was writing those,
I was in a period in my life where I was a little stressed out. And so I truly feel
that I was able to write out some of my own frustrations and aggressions, and go okay,
that's done. It's therapy. I mean, honestly, writing is the best therapy because you get
rid of the emotions and you end up with a beautiful product because of it. It's healthy.
(25:53):
[Jeff:] Mary was also curious, and you've hinted at this a little bit, wondering if
"Honorably Discharged" was always planned as a series when you started thinking about "Creek." Or
were there just characters that came up that were like, we've gotta write books for these guys too.
[Nora:] No, we planned it. We planned as a series for Creek and his three housemates,
(26:13):
but we may have already introduced other characters that are also gonna need a book. Oops.
[E.M.:] I've gotten messages from readers going, "Oh,
is so and so gonna get a book?" And I'm just like, maybe now.
[Nora:] Yeah. We'll definitely figure something out either in the series or as a short or as a
(26:34):
spinoff. We're both really good at creating characters that demand a story, so, oops.
[Jeff:] And who knows what you'll end up with as you go do the additional
books that you've already planned since you've already seeded other people into
this. Suddenly there's a 15 book series somewhere.
(26:55):
[Nora:] Hey, I'm not gonna complain. If people wanna read them, I'll write them.
[Jeff:] Absolutely. So I'm curious for each of you,
what's a favorite scene that's in the book? Either like the most fun to write,
or what the other one did, or however you wanna pick a favorite scene.
[Nora:] Ooh.[E.M.:] Ooh, that's a good question.
(27:16):
[Nora:] You go first.
[E.M.:] Okay. The first one, I mean, there's so many. But the first one that comes to mind is,
at least to write, was the elevator scene. I don't wanna give away too many spoilers,
but there's a scene between Creek and Heath stuck in an elevator. And it was
snarky and bantery and a little bit, a little angsty. But then it also had
(27:40):
hints of what's to come. And it was really fun to mesh all that together, for sure.
[Jeff:] Talk about forced proximity, having to stuff them in an elevator.
[Nora:] I mean, we're mean as authors, right? You guys figure this out together.
[E.M.:] Claustrophobia, here's an elevator.
[Nora:] Yeah. Oops. I think for me, I loved the discussions Creek had with Nash, with his,
(28:09):
technically a superior officer, but also an older brother, basically. Those were really
interesting for me to write because Nash is not the type who prescribes. He just asks
questions. He holds up that mirror and that was something that Creek really needed. And
Creek's change is not sudden. It's not “Oh my gosh, I need to become this or I
(28:34):
need to do this.” But it's Nash holding up that mirror, and also calling him out on his shit.
Again, I'm not gonna spoil too much, but there's a point in the book where Creek really
messes up with Heath and does something really stupid. And Nash tells him he needs to grovel,
and not tomorrow or next week, but like today. And so Creek does. That to me is really
(28:58):
powerful to see that influence that Nash has on him and use it in that way. Not to tell somebody
what to do. But, like I said, really to hold up that mirror. Man, we all need those people in
our lives. Somebody who tells us the truth. And, that's just beautiful to write, to see Creek grow
through those kinds of conversations. And a whole lot with Creek, with Heath, obviously, but yeah.
(29:24):
[Jeff:] I always love reading the books where each person has the person who like,
you're being stupid. You need to do this, and then finds the way, like holding up
the mirror to help it make be their idea too, so they get why they needed to do it.
[Nora:] Yeah.
[E.M.:] Especially with Creek, his story is a bi awakening. So he's dealing with
(29:48):
several major changes in his life. So I think Nash was really great helping him,
providing that guidance that Creek didn't really have, even growing up.
[Jeff:] What can you tease us about the next book in the series that's
already up for pre-order and planning to be out in December?
(30:12):
[Nora:] Oh, that's gonna be so much fun.
[E.M.:] Yeah, a lot more lighthearted. And so much room for just like silly,
playful, steamy. Much steamier.
[Nora:] Well, quicker steam.
[E.M.:] Yeah. Yeah. Less of a slow burn.
(30:32):
[Nora:] Yeah, because “Creek,” because it's a bi awakening, I mean, obviously they're not gonna
jump in bed in the first few chapters. “Bean” is gonna be the next story. Bean is obviously
also a veteran who has a traumatic brain injury due to the same accident that cost Creek his
leg. And so he has major memory issues. And so that's how the story starts. He has this
(30:58):
hookup with the guy and when he meets the guy again, he's forgotten that they hooked up. So
he is gonna try and propose him to him again. And, so of course the guy is a little offended.
So that's where it starts and we're taking it from there. So it's again, as E.M. said,
it's much more lighthearted I guess. And definitely the steam will be...
(31:21):
[E.M.:] Quicker.
[Nora:] But yeah, we're gonna have some fun with that. I mean, Bean is living in the same house,
so we'll see Creek again. We'll see Nash again and the other guys, so that'll be fun.
[Jeff:] Creek and Bean are very interesting names. Did you have fun deciding names? Cause
they're certainly not ones that we hear often, cause certainly there
(31:44):
are some names that you could just find almost in every fifth book or something.
[Nora:] That's a me thing. My first few books have very generic names. I mean,
there's a few specials, but they're mostly generic. And I don't know when,
but at some point I decided that one of the weird things in my books was gonna be
that my characters have really unique names. And so that's what I decided.
(32:09):
And so I asked E.M. if it would be okay to pick out some unique names. So,
Creek his brother's name is Forest, and he has a sister called Meadow. So their mom was just
in her hippie phase when she named them. Bean is actually a nickname. We're gonna find out in
the book why he's called Bean. His real name is Merril which doesn't have quite the same ring to
(32:34):
it as Bean. But yeah, we had fun coming up with the names for sure, but that's all me. Oops.
[E.M.:] But I didn't mind. It was a lot of fun. It was fun to pick out names.
[Nora:] Yeah.
[Jeff:] I know who to come to if I need help with names.
[Nora:] I am telling you, I bought a baby names book for 50 cents at a used bookstore,
(32:55):
used book sale, and it's been the best investment ever. Every time I need a name,
I just pick up that book. Fifty cents. It's an endless inspiration for really weird names.
[E.M.:] Yep.
[Jeff:] Now Mary's got one more question and E.M.,
she sent this specifically for you cause as she writes, "How do you do it? How do you juggle
(33:16):
so many projects and series and they're not similar, most not even in the same universe?"
[E.M.:] Well, I mean, for one, I'm a full-time writer, so like it is my job. So I have an
allotted amount of time during the day to write. And I like to actually switch projects throughout
the day because it helps keep me from burning out on a specific book or series. And I do
(33:40):
write really fast and my average word count is probably 11, 12,000 words a day. So yeah,
that's… So if I did 11,000 words in one book, I would get very tired of it. So that's kind
why I like to have multiple projects going at the same time, because I keep busy. I try to stop work
(34:01):
at four or five every day and I take weekends off. But I do, just… It's like my superpower,
I guess, is my word count. So yeah, I mean, it seems probably more complicated than it is.
[Nora:] I'm not quite that fast.
[Jeff:] I'm so enamored of going back and forth in projects cause that's something that I'm not good
(34:27):
at all unless I'm writing on one and editing on one. But writing simultaneously,
it's one of those things that kind of makes my brain hurt a little bit.
[E.M.:] Yeah, I have like my morning and then my afternoon projects. So like I'll work on something
in the morning, then I'll take a break. I'll walk on my treadmill, have lunch, mess with my
(34:48):
garden and then come back. And then the second part of my day, I'll do the second project.
[Nora:] Yeah, I agree. It's really good for the creativity. It keeps
it fun. The only downside is that you really have to keep working on all the projects
because I do find that if I don't write on a certain project for maybe two or three weeks,
(35:09):
then I have to really get back into it. Like my brain is not up to date on all
the details anymore, and then I have to reread and reread everything. That's when
it's starting to become bothersome because now it's a waste of time to have to get back into
it every time. But if I just write a chapter of whatever, a day, or a week, then I'm good.
(35:29):
I don't hit those word counts. But if I am uninterrupted. Please, those days are like
way too rare. I can hit about seven, 8,000 words a day. That's very doable for me. The only problem
is I rarely hit five days of those in a week. Especially if I have my son. I've shared custody
(35:51):
with my ex-husband. So if I have my son, I don't hit anywhere near to that because there's always
something. Kids. Oh, well, I'm a mom first. That's the priority right now. So all good.
[Jeff:] I'm glad you answered that too, cause I was curious cause you have a number of things
going on too. All these series, I mean, you're always talking about new books coming and works
(36:17):
in progress going and so very much the same for you then, high word counts and multiple projects.
[Nora:] I work on multiple projects. A good organization, two fantastic PAs. Let's not
forget that. The reason I can focus on the writing is because I have two PAs who do a lot of the
(36:39):
practical. A lot of things I… Vicki is my primary PA, as we say. So she's basically doing a lot of
my social media. She does my newsletter, all that kind of stuff. And then Abbie is my second PA,
and she handles all the translations and all the audio, so I don't have to deal with any of that,
which really frees up my time to focus on the writing and on the stuff that I need to
(37:03):
do as Nora, and that I can't delegate, so that makes a world of difference. So I really wanna
give credit where credit's due. Without them, I wouldn't be able to do this. No.
[Jeff:] I would love to know from each of you what you're working on individually that's gonna
come out later this year or even into next year. Whatever you can tease us on. Nora,
(37:26):
I'll make you go first on that cause you made E.M. go first on something else earlier.
[Nora:] I have just finished "Protecting the Nerd," which is my next book in my "Forestville
Silver Foxes" series. So we're talking older guys, small town. I love that series. I love
those guys very... like I said, found family. I love writing older guys. They're my age. Oops.
(37:50):
I dunno. I mean, I write… I like writing all ages, but this series has been a lot of fun.
So "Protecting the Nerd" is really about a nerd obviously who needs a bodyguard because his latest
invention is drawing some unwanted ascension. So it has bisexual awakening, forced proximity,
all the good stuff. And he's just absolutely delightfully clueless about some stuff. He may
(38:14):
or may not be partially based on my ex-husband. Don't tell him. He actually reads my book,
so all good. But yeah, that was a lot of fun to write. So that's coming out mid-July. And
right now I'm writing a couple of shorts in that same universe. And then I'll be
starting on "Bean," obviously. And the next "Forestville" book. So my focus for the
(38:35):
rest of the year is mostly the "Honorably Discharged" and the "Forestville" books.
And I write for my... I have my own Patreon through my website where I release… try to
release a weekly chapter of my Dragon series. So I write that in between,
like you said, I juggle a lot of projects. All good, all fun.
[Jeff:] Do you give work in progress stuff in your subscription too? What
(38:59):
are readers gonna find over there in Nora After Dark?
[Nora:] So, I have different tiers for the readers who love my kink stuff.
You get the early chapters of kink, my kink books, lots of daddy stuff,
and projects that haven't been published yet that I'm working on. My contemporary stuff,
you get the early chapters for whatever book I'm writing, like "Forestville."
(39:19):
We're up to chapter 16, I think of “Protecting the Nerd." So usually by the time a book releases,
they've had at least half of the book in early chapters, which is also fun for me
because I get that feedback like, "Oh my God, this chapter was amazing." Or, "Nora,
how can you do this to us?" Those are my favorite comments. Oh, I'm so sorry.
(39:42):
[Jeff:] No, you're not.
[Nora:] No, I'm not. I'm the queen of cliffhangers,
especially in the Dragon series. But hey, they still read them so.
[Jeff:] And E.M., how about for you? What's coming up?
[E.M.:] Okay, so while I'm currently working,
I have two active works in progress. One is the third book of my single dad series,
(40:02):
"Words We Never Said." That one's coming out in August, the end of August.
And then I am hoping to be done by next week with my series "The Beginning of Always," which
is "Halo" and "Most of You," and then this is the third one. I just released a short story,
"Pretty Boy," which was a sequel, kinda like an epilogue to "Halo" where I introduced a
(40:27):
couple of new characters. One is coming out in a super secret summer project,
which I can't say yet. And the other one is coming to Amazon. It's called "Sugar," which
I'm hoping to put the pre-order up beginning of next week. So those are my active ones.
And then I'm going to be starting hockey, the third book of my hockey series,
(40:48):
on my Ream Stories as a serial, which will follow the one that's going on
right now which is a paranormal romance, a Hephaestus, Icarus,
Thanatos Greek God retelling. And that one is probably about five or six chapters away
from being finished. And that's the serial I have going on my Ream Stories right now.
(41:11):
[Jeff:] Very cool. What else will people find in your Ream community and in that subscription?
[E.M.:] So I'm getting ready to restructure it because my son is actually moving home
from Arizona. So, I'm not very consistent with the serial right now. So I'm actually moving that to,
(41:33):
basically, followers. So that one is no cost subscription. They can
read the serial cause it's going to be inconsistently updating.
And then everybody else gets access to ARCs. I have a work in progress where they get chapters
as I finish them. And I'm going to be introducing a tier that gets paperbacks every three months.
(41:54):
They'll get a signed paperback and then I occasionally do art and I do short stories,
little two to 3000 word short stories once a month as well.
[Nora:] I have a paperback tier. Those are amazing fans. And I have an audio tier,
which is pretty popular. So readers get an audio of every solo book I release and they
(42:19):
really seem to like that. And it's a good way for us as authors because it's a direct
way of connecting with readers instead of through Amazon, Audible, whatever. So I really like that.
[Jeff:] Yeah, I love the audio tiers that I'm starting to see more and more,
as a way to get audio direct out there.
[Nora:] Yeah, I think it's a great way. I mean, it's cheaper for readers too,
(42:42):
and for us as authors too. Audio is incredibly expensive to produce for most of us. So this
is an easy way to get a little more of the revenue in our pockets instead of Amazon
taking the biggest cut. Not that I'm Amazon bashing, but that's just the reality is,
you see a sales price of $19.99 on Audible or whatever, and we only get such a small
(43:06):
fraction of that. Instead, I really like the direct sales to readers. Yeah.
[Jeff:] As we wrap up, we've gotta get some recommendations from you both. What are you
reading or watching these days that you would recommend to our listeners?
[Nora:] Oof.
[E.M.:] I'm, currently obsessed with "Interview with the Vampire," season finale on Sunday.
(43:27):
I've always… I grew up a book fan. So, that's nice. I've been watching that.
And then I just finished the new Isabel Murray book. I can… I'm sorry I'm blanking
on the name. I just finished it and it was so cute. It was about a guy on his birthday,
goes to an ice rink cause he was having a crappy birthday,
and he meets a figure skating coach. And it is just… it's so swoony and I love Isabel Murray.
(43:54):
[Jeff:] That sounds like an absolute delight.
[Nora:] Yeah.
[E.M.:] It's wonderful. Yeah.
[Nora:] I was mentally taking a note like, “Oh, that sounds like something I want to read.”
[E.M.:] It's swoony and the way that she writes her characters... very relatable.
Just kind of middle aged, tired of the BS, and not feeling maybe that they're
(44:17):
going to find their happily ever after. So they're a little bit reluctant to accept it,
and that's what makes it so satisfying at the end when they do. So, yeah, I just finished that.
And then A.J. Demas just came out with a new release,
"The Red..." I'm sorry, I'm terrible with titles.
[Nora:] So bad with names.
[Jeff:] We will look all that stuff up and we'll just link
(44:38):
it in the show notes so people find what we’re talking about.
[E.M.:] And that one I haven't started. I just got it. So I haven't started it yet,
but that's my weekend read.
[Jeff:] Nice. "Interview with the Vampire" is so
good. We haven't started the second season yet. We've been piling...
[E.M.:] It is amazing.
[Jeff:] …to binge it.
[E.M.:] Yes. Binge. Oh, it's so good. It's phenomenal.
(45:00):
[Jeff:] I'm excited that it finales this weekend.
And I read just today that it got it season three pickup too.
[E.M.:] Yeah. I was really excited 'cause I need more.
[Jeff:] It's so beautiful. I.
[E.M.:] Yeah.
[Nora:] I don't watch a lot of TV. I'm watching "SEAL Team" right now, which is partially
sort of research inspiration for a possible future series. And it's fun. I mean, David,
(45:25):
what's his name? Bo… Boian…Boas… whatever... something like that. I got a few of the letters
right, I'm sure. I mean, he's pretty nice to look at too, so that's a bonus. It's pretty
heavy on the action. But I really like it. I like the development of the characters.
"Bridgerton" is up next. I haven't seen the new season. I've waited till it's all out
(45:47):
cause I can't do half seasons. Like I need to be able to binge the whole damn thing.
And then reading, I am working my way through Sarah J. Maas, "The Glass Throne," which started
so slow that I was legit questioning myself. Like, why does everybody love this? Because
(46:10):
nothing is happening. And then I read somewhere else that everybody agreed nothing was happening.
And I'm like, okay, so it's not just me. And then I kept reading and now it's getting really good.
I've been on a supernatural binge on a romanatasy binge lately, and most of it is MF. That's been
that's been great. Stacia Stark, if you haven't read her books, they're absolutely fricking
(46:34):
amazing. Now of course I'm blinking on the title, but Jeff, with your research abilities,
I'm sure you can't figure it out. She's a good friend of mine, but I read her book more as,
"Oh, I wanna read her book because she's a friend" and it's so good. It's romanatasy MF, but so good.
I absolutely loved it. So that's like the last five-star plus, highly recommend series I've read.
(47:00):
In between, I do a lot of audio books, but mostly nonfiction. A lot of World War II
stuff. That's still my… it's my original degree, so still yeah, my old love,
my first love. Maybe one day I'll write a book set in World War II. Who knows? We'll see.
[Jeff:] Ooh, a Nora Phoenix historical.
[Nora:] I know, I know.. I've been really debating it. I mean,
(47:24):
it's such a passion of mine. I would love it. I'm just not sure it would sell. We'll see.
[Jeff:] I'd read it.
[Nora:] Yeah. Well, I mean, that's already one, two copies sold. Yay.
[Jeff:] What is the best way to keep up with you two online and so people
know more about "Honorably Discharged" as more come out, and all these other things
(47:47):
that you're working on? And Nora, I'll just send it back to you first.
[Nora:] Noraphoenix.com is the easiest way. That's my website. The single best way is to
hit me up on Facebook. I have a reader group called Nora's Nook where I hang out a lot,
share a lot of stuff. There's my newsletter, obviously, which you can sign up through my
website noraphoenix.com/newsletter. And those are the easiest ways.
(48:11):
But I know a lot of people are active on social media anyway, so Instagram,
@nora.phoenix. I'm on pretty much all the socials. I shouldn't say I,
some of it is my PA. I don't do Instagram myself. She does. But Facebook, Nora's Nook,
I love it. I love hanging out with readers, so that's a really easy way to connect with me.
(48:33):
[Jeff:] Awesome. And E.M. For you.
[E.M.:] Pretty much the same, emlindseyauthor.com. I try to update it as often as I can. I have my
newsletter link as well there. Then I am on in Facebook. Lindsey's Liaison is my reader group,
and I try to go in there at least two to three times a day check things out. And
(48:56):
Instagram is the only social media app I have on my phone. So I actually do
post a lot of personal stuff, mostly my cats, but you know, other things too.
[Nora:] They are lovely cats.
[E.M.:] They are, they're sweet. But yeah, that's pretty much it.
[Jeff:] Fantastic. Well, Nora, E.M., this has been a wonderful conversation. I hope
(49:19):
everybody enjoys "Creek" when they pick it up. Looking forward to more in this series,
and thanks so much for hanging out here with us and telling us all the good stuff.
[E.M.:] Thank you.[Nora:] Thanks for having us.
[Jeff:] This episode's transcript has been brought to you by our community on
Patreon. If you'd like to read the conversation for yourself,
check out the show notes page for this episode at biggayfictionpodcast.com.
We've also got links to everything that we've talked about in this episode.
(49:44):
And thanks so much to Nora and E.M. for coming to talk about the "Honorably Discharged" series. I
always love hearing about how collaborators work together and it was really wonderful hearing them
discuss how they approached working on "Creek." And I'm so very much looking forward to reading
more in this series. And I'm so glad we only have to wait till December for the release of "Bean."
Alright, I think that's gonna do it for now. Coming up next on Monday, August 12th,
(50:08):
we're gonna be kicking off cozy mystery month. We've decided that August is gonna be all
about cozies and we're getting started with Frank Anthony Polito, who's gonna be here to talk about
the third book in his "Domestic Partners in Crime" series. It's called "Haunted to Death," and it's a
really perfect read as we get a little bit closer to fall and to that spooky season of Halloween.
Thank you so much for listening, and I hope that you'll join us back here
(50:31):
again soon for more discussions about the kinds of stories that we all love,
the big gay fiction kind. Until then, keep turning those pages and keep reading.
[Will:] Big Gay Fiction Podcast is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. Find more shows
you’ll love at frolic.media/podcasts. Original theme music by Daryl Banner.
[Jeff:] Coming up on this episode, Nora Phoenix and E.M. Lindsey are
(00:03):
here to talk about their collaboration on the new series, "Honorably Discharged."
Hello, Rainbow Romance Reader. Welcome to episode 459 of the Big Gay Fiction Podcast,
the show for avid readers and passionate fans of queer romance fiction. I'm Jeff,
(00:23):
and it's great to have you here for another episode of the show.
As always, this podcast is brought to you in part by our remarkable community on Patreon.
If you'd like more information about what we offer to patrons,
including the opportunity to ask questions to our guests,
just like Mary does in this very episode, go to patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast.
(00:44):
And don't forget, you can get book recommendations delivered to your email box with the Rainbow
Romance Reader report. It's a look at books that are new and coming soon that we are excited
about. Plus we also have recommendations for you about what we're currently reading and watching.
You can sign up for the Rainbow Romance Reader report at biggayfictionpodcast.com/report.
(01:06):
And we're gonna get right into our conversation with Nora Phoenix and E.M. Lindsey. They have
both been on the podcast in the past talking about their books. Nora was on most recently
in episode 250, talking about her paranormal side with "Omega's Truth," while E.M. joined us
in episode 409, talking about their "Loose Lips Sink Ships" duology. Now, earlier this month,
(01:27):
Nora and E.M. released their first ever collaboration, a grumpy/sunshine romance
called "Creek," which kicks off the "Honorably Discharged" series. They tell us all about what
brought them together, how they decided the stories that they wanted to tell, and what's
still to come in the series. Plus, we get some details on what they're working on separately too.
[Jeff:] Nora and E.M.,
(01:48):
welcome back to the show. It's great to have you both here together this time.
[E.M.:] I am excited.
[Nora:] Thank you.
[Jeff:] Yeah. I'm super excited that we get to talk about "Creek." And before we
get into the book itself, I'd love to know what brought you two together to
co-write for the first time in this collaboration.
[E.M.:] We just came up with. We floated the idea at GRL 2022. The last day that we were there,
(02:15):
we were hanging out in the lobby and talking and I don't remember how it got… But yeah,
we kicked around the idea. And then a couple months later we got on a chat and started
thinking about what would be a good fit for both of our voices.
(02:37):
[Nora:] I think it was also like, first of all, we really hit it off personally. And
to me that's really important is you have to click with somebody to be able to write
together because it's a very creative endeavor and you're gonna spend a lot of time going
back and forth and communicating. So there has to be a level of friendship and trust.
(02:58):
But also I think… I was telling E.M. the other day. It was funny. I was
reorganizing my Kindle and it tells you who are your favorite authors. There's
one author I own more books of than of E.M. But they're my second favorite author on my
Kindle. So I've just been a huge fan for years and that's a great start.
(03:24):
I think our styles are similar yet different. I think we bring similar things to the table,
that we both like complex characters and characters that are a little different. But
we also have our unique styles and I was super excited to write. And it's been really fun.
(03:44):
[Jeff:] It's so great. As we're talking, it comes out in two days and you're both just
smiling so big about the collaboration and the book. That's just wonderful.
[E.M.:] It was fun. It was so much fun to write this book. Like I'm so
excited for the next guy, too. I love these guys.
(04:09):
[Nora:] Well, I think in a collaboration what you wanna see is that you feed off each other,
that you bring out the best in each other as a writer and in the creative process. And that is
something that really happened for us. And I think that's what makes the book so much fun for us.
And also… I mean, it's very un-Dutch to brag, but also what makes the book so good is that,
(04:37):
I think you feel that when you read it, is that the fun that we had creating it,
and the way that we played off each other, and the characters interacted. I think there's a lot
of banter in there and I think that really brought out the strength in both of us.
[Jeff:] Where did the idea for "Creek" itself and, at a larger prospect,
(05:01):
the "Honorably Discharged" series come from? Was it some of those initial conversations,
or did it just weed its way out as you talked more?
[Nora:] I think it started with the desire of having representation in a lot of ways,
but especially in terms of disabilities and having characters who are facing challenges.
(05:28):
And I think that's how we came up with the idea. Oh, military guys would be really
good for that because a lot of them bring both physical limitations or challenges, but also a
lot of mental baggage to the table. And that's where we started. We both like our wounded men.
[E.M.:] Yeah. The wounded hero.
(05:49):
[Nora:] Yeah. So I think that was just how we… And found family is a theme in both of our books. So
we really wanted to create that found family. And that's how we came up with, what if we have these
veterans who are sharing a house? So we really create that found family and then each with
(06:09):
their own challenge and their own limitations. And that's where we started with that, I think.
[Jeff:] The found family aspect and the idea of putting them into this house
really struck me as such a wonderful romance series kind of builder. Cause
now you could build a story for each one of these guys. They've got their support
(06:30):
system in the house. It naturally extends to them, moving along through this series.
And it's different than just roommates too. Cause you think about roommates who are like,
newly out of college in their twenties. But these are slightly older guys, certainly people
who've lived a lot of life and now you've given them this support system of being roommates.
(06:52):
[Nora:] Yeah, with Nash, who is like the oldest of the group. And who was their officer,
like their guy in charge. He's like the central figure. He's like their daddy,
but not like the daddy daddy. I think what is just so wonderful is these guys are a
(07:16):
little lost in their own way. And, by the way, Nash thinks he's got it all figured out and...
[E.M.:] He doesn't. He will.
[Nora:] Yeah, we've got some fun stuff planned for him. But, yeah. And it was E.M.'s idea to
set the book in San Francisco. So that was that was their idea, which I loved. I've never been.
(07:41):
[E.M.:] It's wonderful. You should.
[Nora:] Yeah, I know it's on the list, but you know, so many places to travel,
not enough time. Even with how much traveling I do.
[Jeff:] Come to the west, come to the west.
[Nora:] I know.
[Jeff:] What are readers going to find in "Creek?” You've got one of my favorite things. You've got a
(08:04):
grumpy veteran and a sunshine surfer for them to irritate each other for a while
before everything clicks into place. It's “Oh, maybe I like you after all.” What's their story?
[E.M.:] Well, Heath's story, he was in a motorcycle accident. They meet in PT
(08:27):
and they both have essentially the same injury. And so Heath,
he is a sunshine character, but he's also dealing with this major change
to his life. He's a volleyball coach. He's a P.E. Teacher of high school.
And so it was really fun to explore the way that he lets himself be, eventually,
(08:49):
become a little bit more vulnerable rather than projecting the same, he's all smiles,
and he is got it all figured out, and he's just fine. He starts out, especially Creek,
when Creek looks at him, Creek looks at this guy who thinks… he thinks that Heath is,
just fine. And so the more he gets to know him,
(09:09):
the more that kind of realizes that Heath might not be all as put together as he thinks he is.
[Nora:] Yeah. Well, and then we have Creek,
who is basically a grumpy ass and but I also like. I had a lot of empathy for him because
he's a soldier. The army was his life and it was ripped away from him before he was
(09:34):
ready in a way that was very unexpected and very traumatic, obviously, and not by choice.
And when something is such a big part of your identity, that really changes
you. So it's not just the physical change of losing a limb and adapting to that, but also
what does that mean for you? Who are you if you are no longer in the army, if you are no longer
(09:59):
this person that you thought you were?
And I think that was really fascinating for me to explore. What does it mean when you've
made something your identity and that is taken from you? How does that affect you? And that
being said, we may make the book sound a little more angsty than it is, cause it's really not.
(10:20):
[E.M.:] It's not, I honestly looked forward to getting Nora's chapters every time cause I was
cracking up the whole time. Like the banter, especially between the guys in the house,
is phenomenal. It's so funny. So yeah, there's definitely angst. Between me and Nora,
there's definitely your angst there. But there's a lot of lighthearted stuff in there.
(10:43):
[Nora:] Yeah, I think we really found the balance. I mean, like E.M. said,
we're both known for writing angstier books and it's not something that we
shied away from. But we also wanted to find that balance between the humor,
and the fun stuff, and the lighthearted moments, and obviously the romance,
and the more serious stuff. And I think we really hit the right spot there. The sweet spot.
(11:12):
[Jeff:] I'm glad you brought that up because I think it's good for readers to know that. But
also you've talked about it being so much fun to write and angst doesn't always lead itself
to being fun to write? it's a different kind of catharsis, so, yeah. I'm glad you
brought up that there is. There is lightness amongst some of that angst that's there too.
(11:38):
[Nora:] Oh yeah, for sure. There's plenty of humor like E.M. said, especially between the
guys in the house, between Creek and the other guys. There's like the banter that you expect
between guys in the army who are maybe not always the cleanest in terms of jokes, but there's this
real sense of brotherhood underneath. And that's really what also makes it feel warm,
(12:04):
and like the family is… they are a family. It's a different kind of family, but they are family.
[E.M.:] I got to play around a little bit cause I have a high schooler. So I
got to play around with the fun of what it's like to be around teenagers when I
was writing. When I was writing Heath at school with his students, that was fun.
(12:28):
[Nora:] I had to laugh whenever because I have a high schooler too. My son is going
into junior year this year and it's so much fun to read that cause you're like,
“Yep, I could totally see that happen.” They're a breed in itself, teenagers.
[Jeff:] Was there any particular kind of research you had to do,
(12:48):
to not only deal with what these guys are going through physically and their PT, but
also to accurately represent some of the veterans and being in this house kind of situation too?
[Nora:] Yeah. I did, I tried to do as much research as I could on the Army and the
(13:09):
procedures. Made some calls to figure out how does that work. How long do you stay on the payroll,
for lack of a better word? What are your options? But we also invited some beta readers
with firsthand Army experience to read the book because we wanted to make sure we got that right.
And they picked up on some stupid stuff that we still got wrong. So we had to make some changes,
(13:34):
which is great because I think the book is much better for it. And that's why I
love having beta readers. They picked up on some really good stuff and it's made the book better.
But yeah, we tried to be as accurate as possible while still having some creative freedom. As
I say in the beginning, like the biggest… like technically it's… I wouldn't say it's a mistake,
(13:58):
but it's a choice we make. There's no army post near San Francisco. So technically they couldn't
live there if Creek was still on active duty and receiving still care from the VA.
That's a detail we chose to ignore and say, you know what? We'll invent an army post
there. I don't care, like whatever. It's set in San Francisco. That's the creative
(14:21):
freedom that we took. Other than that, we really try to be as accurate as possible.
[Jeff:] It's great to have a good team of beta readers
that you can kinda reach out to for that kind of thing, to get it right.
[Nora:] Yeah, I think you have to.
[E.M.:] Yeah.
[Nora:] Both for the Army stuff and, I always try to do sensitivity readers as
(14:42):
well. There's stuff you miss and it's as simple as... I mean, for me it's even more
because I'm not a native English speaker. I didn't grow up in this country. So I'm
missing out on some cultural stuff that I'm always very open to get feedback on.
But also like terminology changes. I was writing a line somewhere about the handicapped parking
(15:08):
and that was flagged by sensitivity reader as that's accessible parking. That's the
preferred term. That's great. I'm so happy somebody pointed that out cause that's how
you learn is by somebody saying, “Hey, there's a better word for this.” I love
that. I love learning like that. Language evolves and so do we as humans, if we try.
(15:30):
[Jeff:] Got a few questions from Mary, who's a member of our Patreon community. She picked up
on some stuff that I wanna know too, cause I love talking to collaborators. She's curious,
at a broad level, what the process was for this collaboration and how was the
work split up? How did you pass things off between each other? Tell us everything.
(15:53):
[E.M.:] So we started with a couple of Zoom chats where we plotted out the first kind of
overarching story that we wanted to tell. And then, the big points we wanted to hit
and when we wanted to hit them in the book. We did a lot of plotting with who the guys were,
their backgrounds and everything, so we could start them out as fully formed characters. That
(16:20):
took a couple weeks, but it was really nice to get that, kinda the start of the series bible going.
[Nora:] And then we basically divided the characters. So we each wrote a character, which
I also think, because we wrote in first person, works out really well because it's perfectly okay
for the characters to sound different because their POV is different. So it's a very natural
(16:45):
distinction between the two characters and the back and forth was like super easy.
E.M. and I are both really fast writers, which is amazing. That being said,
there's definitely been a period where I wasn't able to write for reasons,
cause we both have kids and lives and somebody moved and we had family stuff and more family
(17:12):
stuff and kids and somebody moved and. It was just super, super easy and I was so
looking forward to getting the chapters each time I was like, “I got new chapter, yay.”
[E.M.:] Yeah. It was every time we had to take a break, it was very easy to come back to.
It really didn't feel like we took time off, which was nice because even when
(17:36):
there was a larger gap in time I didn't feel disconnected from the characters.
[Nora:] No, and I think, ideally, you want to step away from a book for a little bit because
it also gives you a creative distance and you notice different things. If you haven't looked
at it for a couple of weeks and then you read it again, you go, “Oh, hey,
(17:57):
I missed that the first time. We should sharpen this, or I think we should go in this direction.”
So, all in all, I actually think it made the book better to step away from
it from a little bit and then pick it up again. But yeah, it's been a super easy,
easy process between us. Google Docs. That's the only downside. I hate Google Docs.
[E.M.:] It worked.
(18:18):
[Nora:] Not much alternatives there, but yeah.
[Jeff:] Do your plotting styles mesh together? Cause I know sometimes there's collaborators
who plot one way and the other one plots a different way. Or sometimes one’s a plotter,
one's a pantser. Some people are in between. Did that mesh well?
[E.M.:] Yeah, definitely. I'm always an in-betweener. I like to have a
(18:40):
general idea of where I'm going, but my characters don't like to follow plot lines.
[Nora:] No, neither do mine. I think we needed the framework. And I think that's why in the beginning
we did a lot of plotting. We needed the framework of the bigger story of who are these guys? How
(19:01):
did they end up in San Francisco? Where did they live? What does that look like? Once we had that,
we just needed to figure out the beats of the first story that we wanted to hit.
Like it's an enemies to lovers, so you wanna establish the animosity between
them. But you also wanna establish that connection that disguises himself
(19:22):
as hate because Creek is an idiot and he doesn't realize it's something else. Hey,
man needs some time to figure that shit out. Once you have beats, we didn't plot in detail.
There was a lot of freedom for us to say, “Hey, I felt like this would be a good move. Or, Creek
decided on this or Heath wanted this.” That's characters for you. They do stuff by themselves.
(19:48):
[E.M.:] Yeah.
[Nora:] Yeah.
[Jeff:] How many times did one of you pick up a chapter and go, “Oh, we're going that way now.”
[E.M.:] I mean, not anything shocking. I actually liked it. I found it more
inspiring cause I would have an idea of like where I wanted Heath to go next,
but then Nora would write something and I would be like, “Oh, you know what would be perfect
(20:09):
then for this.” It was nice. Because sometimes also I would feel stuck and then she would send
me her chapter and I'd be like, “All right, that's perfect.” To have the perfect idea.
[Nora:] Yeah, and it also changed a few times because originally we had an epilogue going
a certain way, and then we added some chapters at the end and figured out,
(20:30):
okay, this epilogue isn't working. The epilogue needs to come from a different
place and we need to take it in a different direction. But it ended up being better.
So I think that's, to me, that's the strength of a good collaboration is that you, like I said,
you bring out the best in each other and with that creativity, you're like, “Oh,
I hadn't thought of it that way.” We can take it this way. And so that's been really fun.
(20:55):
[Jeff:] How has this been different than the other collaborations you've had? Because both of you
have co-written in the past. How does this kind of sit in the collaborations that you've done,
and anything new and interesting kind of pop up in terms of how you've collaborated?
[E.M.:] Well, this is my first time writing in first person. Well, I've done a couple of
(21:18):
things in first person, but so that was new for me. And it did make sense to just go back
and forth that way. With my other collab, I mostly collab with Kiki Clark, and we
write both characters cause it's third person and it's easier to mesh our voices that way.
So yeah, it was different. It was different. And also, of course,
(21:41):
Nora also does write a lot faster than any of my other past co-authors. So it's I'm very… I
don't care. Like I go with the flow. But it was nice to have somebody match my speed.
[Nora:] Yeah.
[Jeff:] Nice.
[Nora:] Yeah, like I said, we're both really fast writers, so it happened regularly that I would
(22:03):
send a chapter to them in the morning and we're talking like a 3,000 word chapter. And then by the
end of the day I would have a 3,000 word chapter back. Well, that's 6,000 words in one day. You do
that 12 days and you have a full book. So, once we are at full steam, we can do it really fast.
(22:24):
I've only co-written with Kyleen Neuhold, which had been a while. So I hadn't been co-writing
for a while. That was first person too, though first person present tense. This is past tense.
It doesn't make a difference to me. Although I don't even think I told you, I'd almost
finished a chapter and suddenly realized that I'd written in third person. I was like, shit.
(22:46):
[E.M.:] I did that too. I didn't say anything, but I did it too.
[Nora:] I was like, oh. That's because I do write the collab in between my own stuff.
And I was writing, cause my own books are partially first and partially third person.
So somehow third person was still in my head. So I had to rewrite the chapter,
which I mean, it's a bit of work, but not that bad. But I had to laugh. I'm like,
(23:10):
yeah, you better get your shit together before you send that off. But yeah, just super easy,
super fast. And yeah, fun. That's all I can say. Lot of fun. Yeah.
[Jeff:] First and third person. That's such a thing. I love to write in first,
and if I have to write in third,
it just breaks my brain for a while on how to even do that anymore, so I appreciate…
(23:34):
[Nora:] It's very different. And it's because I write… so my Dragon books are third person
because they're romantic suspense and so they're a continuing series and I keep checking in with
previous characters, which is why you need the third person. Cause in any book I might have 6,
7, 8 different points of view, so you need third person. It's what I've written most. I'm very used
(23:58):
to it. But I do need a couple of paragraphs to switch and go, okay brain, we're doing this today.
[Jeff:] For you, E.M., how was it to do that,
like for the first time? Was that a mind bending activity like I know it is for some?
[E.M.:] It was… I have a why choose series. And then I also had a short novel. It was
(24:22):
a holiday one that I did in first person. That one was in first person present tense.
I just wanted to see if I could do it. I actually had a lot of fun. It was nice to
change it up. I was feeling a little bit of a burnout at the time because again,
like Nora said, I was in the middle of a move. And so it was nice. It made me feel
(24:43):
almost refreshed in a way. And it didn't feel like a slog when I was writing it,
or it didn't really feel like work. This book didn't really feel like work, which was nice.
[Nora:] I agree.
[E.M.:] Yeah, it wasn't… I had my struggles with it and I had to rewrite several paragraphs
throughout all of my chapters, especially if I was switching back and forth. But I enjoyed it.
(25:06):
[Nora:] Very easy. I think one of the easiest books I've written in terms of how easy the words
came. Creek's voice was just very natural to me. And I'm not a grumpy person at all.
[E.M.:] You did it well cause he was very grumpy. But he was delightful.
(25:28):
[Nora:] And I think the first chapters, when I was writing those,
I was in a period in my life where I was a little stressed out. And so I truly feel
that I was able to write out some of my own frustrations and aggressions, and go okay,
that's done. It's therapy. I mean, honestly, writing is the best therapy because you get
rid of the emotions and you end up with a beautiful product because of it. It's healthy.
(25:53):
[Jeff:] Mary was also curious, and you've hinted at this a little bit, wondering if
"Honorably Discharged" was always planned as a series when you started thinking about "Creek." Or
were there just characters that came up that were like, we've gotta write books for these guys too.
[Nora:] No, we planned it. We planned as a series for Creek and his three housemates,
(26:13):
but we may have already introduced other characters that are also gonna need a book. Oops.
[E.M.:] I've gotten messages from readers going, "Oh,
is so and so gonna get a book?" And I'm just like, maybe now.
[Nora:] Yeah. We'll definitely figure something out either in the series or as a short or as a
(26:34):
spinoff. We're both really good at creating characters that demand a story, so, oops.
[Jeff:] And who knows what you'll end up with as you go do the additional
books that you've already planned since you've already seeded other people into
this. Suddenly there's a 15 book series somewhere.
(26:55):
[Nora:] Hey, I'm not gonna complain. If people wanna read them, I'll write them.
[Jeff:] Absolutely. So I'm curious for each of you,
what's a favorite scene that's in the book? Either like the most fun to write,
or what the other one did, or however you wanna pick a favorite scene.
[Nora:] Ooh.[E.M.:] Ooh, that's a good question.
(27:16):
[Nora:] You go first.
[E.M.:] Okay. The first one, I mean, there's so many. But the first one that comes to mind is,
at least to write, was the elevator scene. I don't wanna give away too many spoilers,
but there's a scene between Creek and Heath stuck in an elevator. And it was
snarky and bantery and a little bit, a little angsty. But then it also had
(27:40):
hints of what's to come. And it was really fun to mesh all that together, for sure.
[Jeff:] Talk about forced proximity, having to stuff them in an elevator.
[Nora:] I mean, we're mean as authors, right? You guys figure this out together.
[E.M.:] Claustrophobia, here's an elevator.
[Nora:] Yeah. Oops. I think for me, I loved the discussions Creek had with Nash, with his,
(28:09):
technically a superior officer, but also an older brother, basically. Those were really
interesting for me to write because Nash is not the type who prescribes. He just asks
questions. He holds up that mirror and that was something that Creek really needed. And
Creek's change is not sudden. It's not “Oh my gosh, I need to become this or I
(28:34):
need to do this.” But it's Nash holding up that mirror, and also calling him out on his shit.
Again, I'm not gonna spoil too much, but there's a point in the book where Creek really
messes up with Heath and does something really stupid. And Nash tells him he needs to grovel,
and not tomorrow or next week, but like today. And so Creek does. That to me is really
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powerful to see that influence that Nash has on him and use it in that way. Not to tell somebody
what to do. But, like I said, really to hold up that mirror. Man, we all need those people in
our lives. Somebody who tells us the truth. And, that's just beautiful to write, to see Creek grow
through those kinds of conversations. And a whole lot with Creek, with Heath, obviously, but yeah.
(29:24):
[Jeff:] I always love reading the books where each person has the person who like,
you're being stupid. You need to do this, and then finds the way, like holding up
the mirror to help it make be their idea too, so they get why they needed to do it.
[Nora:] Yeah.
[E.M.:] Especially with Creek, his story is a bi awakening. So he's dealing with
(29:48):
several major changes in his life. So I think Nash was really great helping him,
providing that guidance that Creek didn't really have, even growing up.
[Jeff:] What can you tease us about the next book in the series that's
already up for pre-order and planning to be out in December?
(30:12):
[Nora:] Oh, that's gonna be so much fun.
[E.M.:] Yeah, a lot more lighthearted. And so much room for just like silly,
playful, steamy. Much steamier.
[Nora:] Well, quicker steam.
[E.M.:] Yeah. Yeah. Less of a slow burn.
(30:32):
[Nora:] Yeah, because “Creek,” because it's a bi awakening, I mean, obviously they're not gonna
jump in bed in the first few chapters. “Bean” is gonna be the next story. Bean is obviously
also a veteran who has a traumatic brain injury due to the same accident that cost Creek his
leg. And so he has major memory issues. And so that's how the story starts. He has this
(30:58):
hookup with the guy and when he meets the guy again, he's forgotten that they hooked up. So
he is gonna try and propose him to him again. And, so of course the guy is a little offended.
So that's where it starts and we're taking it from there. So it's again, as E.M. said,
it's much more lighthearted I guess. And definitely the steam will be...
(31:21):
[E.M.:] Quicker.
[Nora:] But yeah, we're gonna have some fun with that. I mean, Bean is living in the same house,
so we'll see Creek again. We'll see Nash again and the other guys, so that'll be fun.
[Jeff:] Creek and Bean are very interesting names. Did you have fun deciding names? Cause
they're certainly not ones that we hear often, cause certainly there
(31:44):
are some names that you could just find almost in every fifth book or something.
[Nora:] That's a me thing. My first few books have very generic names. I mean,
there's a few specials, but they're mostly generic. And I don't know when,
but at some point I decided that one of the weird things in my books was gonna be
that my characters have really unique names. And so that's what I decided.
(32:09):
And so I asked E.M. if it would be okay to pick out some unique names. So,
Creek his brother's name is Forest, and he has a sister called Meadow. So their mom was just
in her hippie phase when she named them. Bean is actually a nickname. We're gonna find out in
the book why he's called Bean. His real name is Merril which doesn't have quite the same ring to
(32:34):
it as Bean. But yeah, we had fun coming up with the names for sure, but that's all me. Oops.
[E.M.:] But I didn't mind. It was a lot of fun. It was fun to pick out names.
[Nora:] Yeah.
[Jeff:] I know who to come to if I need help with names.
[Nora:] I am telling you, I bought a baby names book for 50 cents at a used bookstore,
(32:55):
used book sale, and it's been the best investment ever. Every time I need a name,
I just pick up that book. Fifty cents. It's an endless inspiration for really weird names.
[E.M.:] Yep.
[Jeff:] Now Mary's got one more question and E.M.,
she sent this specifically for you cause as she writes, "How do you do it? How do you juggle
(33:16):
so many projects and series and they're not similar, most not even in the same universe?"
[E.M.:] Well, I mean, for one, I'm a full-time writer, so like it is my job. So I have an
allotted amount of time during the day to write. And I like to actually switch projects throughout
the day because it helps keep me from burning out on a specific book or series. And I do
(33:40):
write really fast and my average word count is probably 11, 12,000 words a day. So yeah,
that's… So if I did 11,000 words in one book, I would get very tired of it. So that's kind
why I like to have multiple projects going at the same time, because I keep busy. I try to stop work
(34:01):
at four or five every day and I take weekends off. But I do, just… It's like my superpower,
I guess, is my word count. So yeah, I mean, it seems probably more complicated than it is.
[Nora:] I'm not quite that fast.
[Jeff:] I'm so enamored of going back and forth in projects cause that's something that I'm not good
(34:27):
at all unless I'm writing on one and editing on one. But writing simultaneously,
it's one of those things that kind of makes my brain hurt a little bit.
[E.M.:] Yeah, I have like my morning and then my afternoon projects. So like I'll work on something
in the morning, then I'll take a break. I'll walk on my treadmill, have lunch, mess with my
(34:48):
garden and then come back. And then the second part of my day, I'll do the second project.
[Nora:] Yeah, I agree. It's really good for the creativity. It keeps
it fun. The only downside is that you really have to keep working on all the projects
because I do find that if I don't write on a certain project for maybe two or three weeks,
(35:09):
then I have to really get back into it. Like my brain is not up to date on all
the details anymore, and then I have to reread and reread everything. That's when
it's starting to become bothersome because now it's a waste of time to have to get back into
it every time. But if I just write a chapter of whatever, a day, or a week, then I'm good.
(35:29):
I don't hit those word counts. But if I am uninterrupted. Please, those days are like
way too rare. I can hit about seven, 8,000 words a day. That's very doable for me. The only problem
is I rarely hit five days of those in a week. Especially if I have my son. I've shared custody
(35:51):
with my ex-husband. So if I have my son, I don't hit anywhere near to that because there's always
something. Kids. Oh, well, I'm a mom first. That's the priority right now. So all good.
[Jeff:] I'm glad you answered that too, cause I was curious cause you have a number of things
going on too. All these series, I mean, you're always talking about new books coming and works
(36:17):
in progress going and so very much the same for you then, high word counts and multiple projects.
[Nora:] I work on multiple projects. A good organization, two fantastic PAs. Let's not
forget that. The reason I can focus on the writing is because I have two PAs who do a lot of the
(36:39):
practical. A lot of things I… Vicki is my primary PA, as we say. So she's basically doing a lot of
my social media. She does my newsletter, all that kind of stuff. And then Abbie is my second PA,
and she handles all the translations and all the audio, so I don't have to deal with any of that,
which really frees up my time to focus on the writing and on the stuff that I need to
(37:03):
do as Nora, and that I can't delegate, so that makes a world of difference. So I really wanna
give credit where credit's due. Without them, I wouldn't be able to do this. No.
[Jeff:] I would love to know from each of you what you're working on individually that's gonna
come out later this year or even into next year. Whatever you can tease us on. Nora,
(37:26):
I'll make you go first on that cause you made E.M. go first on something else earlier.
[Nora:] I have just finished "Protecting the Nerd," which is my next book in my "Forestville
Silver Foxes" series. So we're talking older guys, small town. I love that series. I love
those guys very... like I said, found family. I love writing older guys. They're my age. Oops.
(37:50):
I dunno. I mean, I write… I like writing all ages, but this series has been a lot of fun.
So "Protecting the Nerd" is really about a nerd obviously who needs a bodyguard because his latest
invention is drawing some unwanted ascension. So it has bisexual awakening, forced proximity,
all the good stuff. And he's just absolutely delightfully clueless about some stuff. He may
(38:14):
or may not be partially based on my ex-husband. Don't tell him. He actually reads my book,
so all good. But yeah, that was a lot of fun to write. So that's coming out mid-July. And
right now I'm writing a couple of shorts in that same universe. And then I'll be
starting on "Bean," obviously. And the next "Forestville" book. So my focus for the
(38:35):
rest of the year is mostly the "Honorably Discharged" and the "Forestville" books.
And I write for my... I have my own Patreon through my website where I release… try to
release a weekly chapter of my Dragon series. So I write that in between,
like you said, I juggle a lot of projects. All good, all fun.
[Jeff:] Do you give work in progress stuff in your subscription too? What
(38:59):
are readers gonna find over there in Nora After Dark?
[Nora:] So, I have different tiers for the readers who love my kink stuff.
You get the early chapters of kink, my kink books, lots of daddy stuff,
and projects that haven't been published yet that I'm working on. My contemporary stuff,
you get the early chapters for whatever book I'm writing, like "Forestville."
(39:19):
We're up to chapter 16, I think of “Protecting the Nerd." So usually by the time a book releases,
they've had at least half of the book in early chapters, which is also fun for me
because I get that feedback like, "Oh my God, this chapter was amazing." Or, "Nora,
how can you do this to us?" Those are my favorite comments. Oh, I'm so sorry.
(39:42):
[Jeff:] No, you're not.
[Nora:] No, I'm not. I'm the queen of cliffhangers,
especially in the Dragon series. But hey, they still read them so.
[Jeff:] And E.M., how about for you? What's coming up?
[E.M.:] Okay, so while I'm currently working,
I have two active works in progress. One is the third book of my single dad series,
(40:02):
"Words We Never Said." That one's coming out in August, the end of August.
And then I am hoping to be done by next week with my series "The Beginning of Always," which
is "Halo" and "Most of You," and then this is the third one. I just released a short story,
"Pretty Boy," which was a sequel, kinda like an epilogue to "Halo" where I introduced a
(40:27):
couple of new characters. One is coming out in a super secret summer project,
which I can't say yet. And the other one is coming to Amazon. It's called "Sugar," which
I'm hoping to put the pre-order up beginning of next week. So those are my active ones.
And then I'm going to be starting hockey, the third book of my hockey series,
(40:48):
on my Ream Stories as a serial, which will follow the one that's going on
right now which is a paranormal romance, a Hephaestus, Icarus,
Thanatos Greek God retelling. And that one is probably about five or six chapters away
from being finished. And that's the serial I have going on my Ream Stories right now.
(41:11):
[Jeff:] Very cool. What else will people find in your Ream community and in that subscription?
[E.M.:] So I'm getting ready to restructure it because my son is actually moving home
from Arizona. So, I'm not very consistent with the serial right now. So I'm actually moving that to,
(41:33):
basically, followers. So that one is no cost subscription. They can
read the serial cause it's going to be inconsistently updating.
And then everybody else gets access to ARCs. I have a work in progress where they get chapters
as I finish them. And I'm going to be introducing a tier that gets paperbacks every three months.
(41:54):
They'll get a signed paperback and then I occasionally do art and I do short stories,
little two to 3000 word short stories once a month as well.
[Nora:] I have a paperback tier. Those are amazing fans. And I have an audio tier,
which is pretty popular. So readers get an audio of every solo book I release and they
(42:19):
really seem to like that. And it's a good way for us as authors because it's a direct
way of connecting with readers instead of through Amazon, Audible, whatever. So I really like that.
[Jeff:] Yeah, I love the audio tiers that I'm starting to see more and more,
as a way to get audio direct out there.
[Nora:] Yeah, I think it's a great way. I mean, it's cheaper for readers too,
(42:42):
and for us as authors too. Audio is incredibly expensive to produce for most of us. So this
is an easy way to get a little more of the revenue in our pockets instead of Amazon
taking the biggest cut. Not that I'm Amazon bashing, but that's just the reality is,
you see a sales price of $19.99 on Audible or whatever, and we only get such a small
(43:06):
fraction of that. Instead, I really like the direct sales to readers. Yeah.
[Jeff:] As we wrap up, we've gotta get some recommendations from you both. What are you
reading or watching these days that you would recommend to our listeners?
[Nora:] Oof.
[E.M.:] I'm, currently obsessed with "Interview with the Vampire," season finale on Sunday.
(43:27):
I've always… I grew up a book fan. So, that's nice. I've been watching that.
And then I just finished the new Isabel Murray book. I can… I'm sorry I'm blanking
on the name. I just finished it and it was so cute. It was about a guy on his birthday,
goes to an ice rink cause he was having a crappy birthday,
and he meets a figure skating coach. And it is just… it's so swoony and I love Isabel Murray.
(43:54):
[Jeff:] That sounds like an absolute delight.
[Nora:] Yeah.
[E.M.:] It's wonderful. Yeah.
[Nora:] I was mentally taking a note like, “Oh, that sounds like something I want to read.”
[E.M.:] It's swoony and the way that she writes her characters... very relatable.
Just kind of middle aged, tired of the BS, and not feeling maybe that they're
(44:17):
going to find their happily ever after. So they're a little bit reluctant to accept it,
and that's what makes it so satisfying at the end when they do. So, yeah, I just finished that.
And then A.J. Demas just came out with a new release,
"The Red..." I'm sorry, I'm terrible with titles.
[Nora:] So bad with names.
[Jeff:] We will look all that stuff up and we'll just link
(44:38):
it in the show notes so people find what we’re talking about.
[E.M.:] And that one I haven't started. I just got it. So I haven't started it yet,
but that's my weekend read.
[Jeff:] Nice. "Interview with the Vampire" is so
good. We haven't started the second season yet. We've been piling...
[E.M.:] It is amazing.
[Jeff:] …to binge it.
[E.M.:] Yes. Binge. Oh, it's so good. It's phenomenal.
(45:00):
[Jeff:] I'm excited that it finales this weekend.
And I read just today that it got it season three pickup too.
[E.M.:] Yeah. I was really excited 'cause I need more.
[Jeff:] It's so beautiful. I.
[E.M.:] Yeah.
[Nora:] I don't watch a lot of TV. I'm watching "SEAL Team" right now, which is partially
sort of research inspiration for a possible future series. And it's fun. I mean, David,
(45:25):
what's his name? Bo… Boian…Boas… whatever... something like that. I got a few of the letters
right, I'm sure. I mean, he's pretty nice to look at too, so that's a bonus. It's pretty
heavy on the action. But I really like it. I like the development of the characters.
"Bridgerton" is up next. I haven't seen the new season. I've waited till it's all out
(45:47):
cause I can't do half seasons. Like I need to be able to binge the whole damn thing.
And then reading, I am working my way through Sarah J. Maas, "The Glass Throne," which started
so slow that I was legit questioning myself. Like, why does everybody love this? Because
(46:10):
nothing is happening. And then I read somewhere else that everybody agreed nothing was happening.
And I'm like, okay, so it's not just me. And then I kept reading and now it's getting really good.
I've been on a supernatural binge on a romanatasy binge lately, and most of it is MF. That's been
that's been great. Stacia Stark, if you haven't read her books, they're absolutely fricking
(46:34):
amazing. Now of course I'm blinking on the title, but Jeff, with your research abilities,
I'm sure you can't figure it out. She's a good friend of mine, but I read her book more as,
"Oh, I wanna read her book because she's a friend" and it's so good. It's romanatasy MF, but so good.
I absolutely loved it. So that's like the last five-star plus, highly recommend series I've read.
(47:00):
In between, I do a lot of audio books, but mostly nonfiction. A lot of World War II
stuff. That's still my… it's my original degree, so still yeah, my old love,
my first love. Maybe one day I'll write a book set in World War II. Who knows? We'll see.
[Jeff:] Ooh, a Nora Phoenix historical.
[Nora:] I know, I know.. I've been really debating it. I mean,
(47:24):
it's such a passion of mine. I would love it. I'm just not sure it would sell. We'll see.
[Jeff:] I'd read it.
[Nora:] Yeah. Well, I mean, that's already one, two copies sold. Yay.
[Jeff:] What is the best way to keep up with you two online and so people
know more about "Honorably Discharged" as more come out, and all these other things
(47:47):
that you're working on? And Nora, I'll just send it back to you first.
[Nora:] Noraphoenix.com is the easiest way. That's my website. The single best way is to
hit me up on Facebook. I have a reader group called Nora's Nook where I hang out a lot,
share a lot of stuff. There's my newsletter, obviously, which you can sign up through my
website noraphoenix.com/newsletter. And those are the easiest ways.
(48:11):
But I know a lot of people are active on social media anyway, so Instagram,
@nora.phoenix. I'm on pretty much all the socials. I shouldn't say I,
some of it is my PA. I don't do Instagram myself. She does. But Facebook, Nora's Nook,
I love it. I love hanging out with readers, so that's a really easy way to connect with me.
(48:33):
[Jeff:] Awesome. And E.M. For you.
[E.M.:] Pretty much the same, emlindseyauthor.com. I try to update it as often as I can. I have my
newsletter link as well there. Then I am on in Facebook. Lindsey's Liaison is my reader group,
and I try to go in there at least two to three times a day check things out. And
(48:56):
Instagram is the only social media app I have on my phone. So I actually do
post a lot of personal stuff, mostly my cats, but you know, other things too.
[Nora:] They are lovely cats.
[E.M.:] They are, they're sweet. But yeah, that's pretty much it.
[Jeff:] Fantastic. Well, Nora, E.M., this has been a wonderful conversation. I hope
(49:19):
everybody enjoys "Creek" when they pick it up. Looking forward to more in this series,
and thanks so much for hanging out here with us and telling us all the good stuff.
[E.M.:] Thank you.[Nora:] Thanks for having us.
[Jeff:] This episode's transcript has been brought to you by our community on
Patreon. If you'd like to read the conversation for yourself,
check out the show notes page for this episode at biggayfictionpodcast.com.
We've also got links to everything that we've talked about in this episode.
(49:44):
And thanks so much to Nora and E.M. for coming to talk about the "Honorably Discharged" series. I
always love hearing about how collaborators work together and it was really wonderful hearing them
discuss how they approached working on "Creek." And I'm so very much looking forward to reading
more in this series. And I'm so glad we only have to wait till December for the release of "Bean."
Alright, I think that's gonna do it for now. Coming up next on Monday, August 12th,
(50:08):
we're gonna be kicking off cozy mystery month. We've decided that August is gonna be all
about cozies and we're getting started with Frank Anthony Polito, who's gonna be here to talk about
the third book in his "Domestic Partners in Crime" series. It's called "Haunted to Death," and it's a
really perfect read as we get a little bit closer to fall and to that spooky season of Halloween.
Thank you so much for listening, and I hope that you'll join us back here
(50:31):
again soon for more discussions about the kinds of stories that we all love,
the big gay fiction kind. Until then, keep turning those pages and keep reading.
[Will:] Big Gay Fiction Podcast is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. Find more shows
you’ll love at frolic.media/podcasts. Original theme music by Daryl Banner.
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