December 16, 2024 • 51 mins
Jeff & Will kick off the show talking about Jeff's favorite reads of 2024, which includes books by Brad Gooch, Gabe Cole Novoa, Frederick Smith, KT Hoffman, Freya Marske, Julian Winters, and Jeffrey K. Davenport. Jeff also reviews "Karaoke Queen" by Dominic Lim and "The Rules of Royalty" by Cale Dietrich.
Cale also discusses "The Rules of Royalty," his queer YA royal rom-com that blends "The Princess Diaries" with romance. Cale shares the inspiration behind Jamie and Erik’s story, the fun of crafting royal traditions, and the writing character arcs that intertwine growth and romance.
Complete show notes for episode 469 along with a transcript of the show are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com.
Look for the next episode of Big Gay Fiction Podcast on Monday, December 30.
Big Gay Fiction Podcast is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. Find many more outstanding podcasts at frolic.media/podcasts!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Jeff:] Coming up on this episode,
(00:01):
we're talking about "The Rules of Royalty," the brand new YA romance from Cale Dietrich.
[Will:] Welcome to episode 469 of the Big Gay Fiction Podcast,
the show for avid readers and passionate fans of queer romance fiction. I'm Will,
and here with me, as always, is my co-host and husband, Jeff.
(00:24):
[Jeff:] Hello, Rainbow Romance Reader. It is so great to have you back here for another episode.
[Will:] So as we get started, Jeff,
I think it's a great time for you to share your favorite reads from 2024.
[Jeff:] You know, this was hard this year. Usually I do five, and as I'm going through the
list of what I've read, I'm like, well, I can't leave that out, and I can't leave that out. So,
(00:45):
you know, it's gonna be a little more than five, but these are the reads that really resonated with
me this year and that I kept thinking about after I read them and just how very good they were. And
these are actually in the order in which I read them, because to rank them would be impossible.
So first out of the gate is "Radiant (01:03):
The Life and Line of Keith Haring" by Brad Gooch. This was the
very first book I read in 2024, and it really set a great tone for the year. This is an extensive
biography of the artist Keith Haring, from some of his very first drawings when he was a young,
young child through his death in the 1980s while he was in his early thirties. This was such a
(01:28):
page-turning read for me, learning more about Keith and his art and the times that he lived
through—the seventies and eighties—and his lasting legacy. It was just outstanding. You could hear
everything I had to say about that in episode 449 when I also got to interview Brad for the show.
Next up is one that I know we both really love this year, and that is "Most Ardently"
(01:50):
by Gabe Cole Novoa. We talk about it in episode 448. We love a good remix;
we've always said that, and there have been some great ones recently, but Gabe's
queer trans "Pride and Prejudice" remix was absolutely everything you could ever want.
[Will:] I wholeheartedly agree. Now, I don't have my own top reads list this year because
(02:13):
I read primarily nonfiction this year. That wasn't something I did intentionally. It
just kind of happened. But "Most Ardently" was one of the few fiction titles I read,
and it was absolutely amazing. Definitely at the top of the list.
[Jeff:] Then there's "One and Done" by Frederick Smith. I've enjoyed Fred's writing since the very
first time that I came across it a few years ago. This extremely tropey workplace-set romance was
(02:39):
just everything I needed to read heading into Pride month this year. He is at the
top of his game in this book. I can't wait to see what he does as he continues to write very
tropey romances. You could hear more about that book and my interview with Fred in episode 456.
Another book I read this year—it was a year of sports books for me, and between this book and Cat
(03:02):
Sebastian's baseball romance this year, somehow I almost became a baseball fan. And I'm not really
clear how that happened. But "The Prospects" by KT Hoffman, which is set in a world where it is
okay to have an out trans man baseball player who is trying to get into the major leagues,
was absolutely outstanding. This romance, kind of a second-chance vibe of a romance in this book,
(03:29):
was amazing. I can't highlight this book enough as one of my favorites of this year.
I also took a turn into romantasy this year, which I never really anticipated. I
don't read a lot of fantasy. It just doesn't scratch the itch for me. But Freya Marske's
"Swordcrossed"—I first got into it because of its just outstanding cover illustration,
(03:50):
which is two guys holding swords, kind of clenched with each other. Oh my god,
it was so good. And then the book itself was a page-turner between this kind of forbidden
romance that shouldn't have happened because of an arranged marriage that was already planned
to help save a family business. It blew my mind. It was the book I didn't know I needed.
(04:13):
And you could hear more about "Swordcrossed" in our interview with Freya in episode 465.
Next up, I got a twofer here. It's the first year that I've ever been able to read two
Julian Winters books in a single year. If you've been listening to the show for any time at all,
you know that Julian can do no wrong by me. He is a one-click purchase for me. And the first
one he had out this year was "Prince of the Palisades," which is about a teenager who's
(04:37):
been sent to America to kind of rehab his image and take a minute to be away from his country—to
go to school, among other things—to try to figure out who he's supposed to be because
he's kind of misbehaving on the royal side. This book is very aptly compared to both "Red,
White & Royal Blue" and Netflix's "Young Royals," and it ticks all of the boxes around those books
(05:00):
a hundred percent. Now, the other book I read is a book that actually doesn't come
out until January of next year. But you know what? I read it this year,
so it counts. "I Think They Love You" is Julian's first adult rom-com after writing six books in
YA. I'm just blown away by this book. I'm not gonna tell you a lot about it in this episode
(05:20):
because guess what? Julian's gonna be with us in the next episode to talk all about this book.
But it's really outstanding, and I can't wait for more people to get to read it in January.
Last up on the list, "Meet Me in the Sky," which I just read,
and we talked to Jeffrey Davenport a couple of episodes back in 467. This airport-set forced
proximity book—who knew you could just put two people in an airport for six days and generate
(05:44):
such an amazing romance? I loved this book to pieces, and it was a great kind of bow on my
reading for 2024. So yeah, those are my top reads this year. If you've read any of them,
I'd love to know what you think. You can always leave a comment on the show notes
page. And if you haven't read them, I hope you pick them up for your own TBR.
(06:05):
And speaking of TBRs, how about I try to break your TBR a little bit
more because I've got a couple of other books I would love to tell you about.
One of my favorite reads from 2023 was "All the Right Notes" by Dominic Lim. So I was
beyond excited to dive into his latest, "Karaoke Queen." Set in the same universe,
this novel has everything I love from Dominic's debut, with a blend of humor,
(06:25):
rediscovering oneself, and heartfelt romance mixed in with some callbacks to "All the Right Notes."
The story centers on Rex, who's juggling a life that doesn't quite fit. His parents think he's
heading to law school, something he doesn't want. And a few years ago, he gave up his
life as a drag performer under pressure from his dad and some other painful circumstances.
(06:48):
Rex has tucked away his drag persona, Regina Moon Dee, in a trunk and moved on. Or so he thought.
When a local bar is struggling to save its karaoke night, Rex reluctantly steps in to help because it
happens that his ex, Aaron, is working there. With old feels stirred up, Rex decides to win
Aaron back and try to save the bar. He devises a plan: he'll resurrect Regina to host karaoke
(07:15):
while somehow keeping his identity hidden from Aaron and his dad. You see, Rex was told long
ago by his drag mother, his Uncle Melboy, that men wouldn't like him if he revealed his alter ego.
Karaoke rekindles Rex's love for performing and brings him closer to Paolo, the karaoke
DJ—someone he never expected to develop feelings for. As Rex gains confidence each time he hosts,
(07:39):
he starts to reclaim a part of himself that he thought he'd lost forever. Meanwhile,
those feelings for Paolo deepen, and his elaborate scheme to hide Regina's true
identity from Aaron grows increasingly difficult to maintain. And most of all,
he can't reconcile falling for Paolo while wanting Aaron back.
Dominic masterfully balances everything with pitch-perfect emotional depth. Rex's journey
(08:03):
is about so much more than romance. It's about rediscovering identity,
mending family relationships as he reconnects with Uncle Melboy,
and finding the courage to live authentically. The romance between Rex and Paolo is so sweet,
and the lengths that Paolo goes to show support for Rex are incredibly touching. I've also gotta
give a shout-out to Rex's mother and sister for always supporting Rex's drag performances, even
(08:26):
when his father did not. This book also delves into the difficult reasons Rex gave up drag in the
first place. Dominic handles these heavier moments with care, and I do recommend checking the trigger
warnings before diving in to make sure you're taking care of yourself when you're reading.
Still, the overall story is uplifting, with plenty of humor and heart to balance out the
emotional weight. "Karaoke Queen" is a fantastic follow-up to "All the Right Notes," and it firmly
(08:51):
establishes Dominic Lim as an author that I plan to watch. Sadly, Dominic revealed recently on
social media that the publisher has decided not to go forward with another book in the series,
which is unfortunate because these are exactly the books we need right now—stories filled with
diverse characters. I hope another publisher picks up whatever Dominic does next, or maybe Dom will
(09:13):
release it himself. Regardless, I am there for whatever he does next. In the meantime,
you should pick up "Karaoke Queen" for a great story with a very satisfying HEA.
And now, before we get to my interview with Cale, let's talk a little bit about "The Rules
of Royalty." If you love a royal romance as much as I do, "The Rules of Royalty" is a must for your
TBR. Cale takes the classic "Princess Diaries" concept and makes it a hundred percent gayer,
(09:38):
delivering a charming story with two unforgettable characters finding their way to an HEA.
This book introduces us to Jamie, an American teen who discovers on
his birthday that he's a prince of the small European country of Mitnor. Adopted as a child,
Jamie never expected to learn about his birth family, let alone his royal lineage.
(09:58):
Suddenly, he's swept into a world of etiquette, royal duties,
and a family to get to know, leaving behind his friends and plans for the summer. Jamie
travels with his adoptive parents to Mitnor to figure out what it means to be a prince.
Enter Prince Erik, the spare prince of a neighboring country. Tasked by the
king of Mitnor to tutor Jamie in all things royal, Erik takes this on reluctantly. He's
(10:22):
juggling pressures of his own, including a fake relationship orchestrated by his grandmother,
the queen, to secure a strategic marriage. But from the moment Erik and Jamie meet,
there are sparks, and their dynamic quickly shifts from
one of reluctant tutor and student to friends and onto something far deeper.
What I love about this book is how seamlessly Cale intertwines Jamie's journey of self-discovery
(10:45):
with the blooming romance between him and Erik. Both characters have so much to learn,
not just about being royal but about themselves. Erik begins to
see that he doesn't have to sacrifice his happiness for his family's expectations,
and Jamie starts to find his voice and purpose amid the responsibilities of his
new life. Their growth, both individually and as a couple, was so satisfying.
(11:08):
The supporting cast adds richness to the story too, especially Jamie's American friends,
whom he often talks with, as well as Erik's family, particularly his brother. And the
exploration of what it means to truly connect with people, whether through friendship, love,
or duty, is really beautiful. One of my favorite aspects here is Jamie's effort to do meaningful
work as a prince, like supporting an LGBTQ center in Mitnor that is on the verge of shutting down.
(11:34):
It's an inspiring subplot that highlights his determination to use his platform for good.
Fans of Cale's previous work, like "If This Gets Out," which he co-wrote with Sophie Gonzales,
will recognize his knack for weaving high-stakes situations with character-driven storytelling,
and the way that he incorporates themes of celebrity, social media,
and public scrutiny adds a great element into this royal romance. Of course,
(11:57):
I highly recommend "The Rules of Royalty." It was such a great story.
Now let's get into my interview with Cale. It was so fun talking to him about why he decided
to do a royal romance and give us a gay remix of "The Princess Diaries" at the same time.
Cale's also gonna discuss with us why he's moved from thrillers and horror into romance,
and he's got some great book recommendations too.
(12:19):
[Jeff:] Cale, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you here.
[Cale:] Hi. I am super happy to be here.[Jeff:] I loved so much "The Rules of Royalty,"
and I'm glad we get to talk about it. For our listeners who maybe haven't picked up
the story quite yet, tell everybody about the story of Jamie and Erik.
[Cale:] Awesome. Yes. So, "The Rules of Royalty" is a queer, YA,
(12:41):
royal rom-com. It's about two boys. One of the boys is named Jamie, and he is an American who
discovers that he is the prince of a small, fictional European country. And he's invited
to spend the summer getting to know his royal family and to learn a bit about his royal duties.
The other main character is a boy called Erik, who is the spare prince of a neighboring country. And
(13:05):
he's sort of the spare prince, and he's getting a little bit older now and he's
starting to struggle with the responsibilities and pressures that come with his title as a prince.
So when he receives an invitation to spend the summer with Jamie, teaching him what it's like
to be a prince and the rules of royalty, where the title comes from. As they spend time together, as
(13:30):
what tends to happen in rom-coms, feelings start to happen, which are a problem because that's not
what is planned for Erik by his royal family. So, yeah, it's a big, hopefully fun royal romp
with lots of fun royal things like royal balls, a royal wedding. There’s a hedge maze, and a garden
party. I tried to put all of the royal things you would want in a book into this one.
(13:53):
[Jeff:] I loved that it had the hedge maze, because those are always so fun. Like,
can you get in? Can you get out? Who's going to find you where?
How did you decide what to put in from that point of view? The hedge maze and all of those
like royal rom-com things, there's so much to choose from. How did you narrow it down?
[Cale:] Ooh, that's a good question. I feel like I kind of hit all the ones I wanted to. At the
(14:20):
start, I knew a garden party, especially as this book is a sort of spin on "The Princess Diaries,"
I was like, a garden party’s a must. You’ve got to have that kind of secne. So, I don't think
there was anything I really wanted to include that I didn't get to. So that was kind of nice.
[Jeff:] That's good. That's good. And you mentioned "The Princess Diaries" here,
(14:43):
and that’s something that came up from a member of our Patreon community because
Matters of the Heart really wanted to know why did you choose "The Princess Diaries"?
[Cale:] Awesome. Yeah, thank you for the question, by the way, from them. But yeah,
"The Princess Diaries. I feel like there’s two sort of answers. The short answer is that
"Princess Diaries" is amazing and it's a fund kind of spin, especially what if you can kind
(15:05):
of spin a gay spin on "Princess Diaries.” I was like that sounds amazing and fun,
and it would be something I would love to write.The longer answer is that I had a book come out
called "If This Gets Out," which did quite well. So after that one had done well,
when looking at my next book, I wanted to write something kind of along those lines,
(15:30):
contemporary, but also for people who don’t know, that book was about two
boys in a boy band who have a romance.So it's a contemporary story but has a
heightened element to it. I was thinking, if you want to do something heightened like that again,
it made sense to go with royals. With "Princess Diaries" as a contemporary story—real people,
(15:52):
not fantasy—it has that spectacle and scope, which is what I wanted to write about. "Princess
Diaries" came about when I had a call with my agent and editor, and we were hashtagging,
brainstorming kind of thing. As soon as "Princess Diaries" came up, everybody was super excited.
So I was king of like that's a great direction to go in. And yeah, that's how it ended up
(16:15):
being "Princess Diaries"—longer version other than just, I like it and I think it's cool.
[Jeff:] And it's nice to bring back a film that's gotta be, gosh, what is it,
at least 30 years old now, maybe?[Cale:] Yeah, totally. And also one
that's quite old now and hasn't really left the public consciousness. I guess it's on streaming,
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and "Princess Diaries 3" is about to—they've announced that they're working on it—and the
way the internet exploded with so much hype about this movie. I
think it's a comfort movie for a lot of people.[Jeff:] Matters of the Heart was also curious,
were there specific elements from "Princess Diaries"? You mentioned the garden party as one
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you really wanted to keep. Were there other things you’re like, I want to tweak or even
leave certain things out? How did you pick the things to put into your queer version?
[Cale:] Ooh, that's a good question. For me, I tried to put in a lot of Easter eggs. I don't
want to say exactly what they were. I wanted to take the basis of "The Princess Diaries" but spin
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it in its own direction—influenced but not so much a straight retelling. I wanted it to be a little
different, like thing with Erik's point of view being in it as well. It's the two sides of things,
so it shapes its own identity. The things I really enjoyed were little lines from
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"Princess Diaries," the runaway jokes I threw in to see if someone who was a big fan of "The
Princess Diaries" they'd kind of get this like oh, they mentioned that line, or things like that.
Some of the famous lines, little spins on those.[Jeff:] Now I need to go back and see it again,
because I realized as I was reading that I haven't seen "The Princess Diaries" all the way
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through in quite a few years. It's something that's like, oh this is on, I'll watch it.
[Cale:] Yeah, it's a good time. Highly recommend it. It's a very fun movie.
[Jeff:] How did you go about world-building your kingdoms? Because here you have two kingdoms
that you're dealing with, and you have to build them, but obviously you can't make them exactly
(18:33):
the same either. What was your thought process?[Cale:] Thank you. These are such good questions,
by the way. It's super fun to talk about this. I've written in different genres,
but they all tend to be fairly contemporary-ish. My first book had some sci-fi elements in it,
but I've never done this kind of huge world, like fantasy world-building. In a book like this,
(18:56):
you have to, because you're creating a new kingdom—or two new kingdoms.
My thought process was to base one of the countries on a fictionalized Spain,
and the other is based on kind of more northern European, icier country—a mix of a few different
(19:18):
places. I tried to take things from there and remix them into a new country. That was my idea
for it, and other things like creating a festival—things inspired by real things
but with a tried to do a bit of a spin on it.But yeah, it was really fun. It was fun
to come up with two whole new countries.[Jeff:] Two new places and yet have them be
(19:42):
contemporary at the same time, so you're not just making up things from the past or something. These
are now, and they're just over there somewhere.[Cale:] Yeah. And yeah. And yeah,
exactly. But it was fun. It was a fun challenge.[Jeff:] You mentioned doing the dual point of view
here, and I really liked getting both of those because Erik and Jamie both learned so much from
(20:08):
each other. I mean, when it comes down to it, Erik is there to teach Jamie how to be a royal,
but Jamie also kind of helps him realize that there could be a little bit more in there too.
And they're balancing that kind of education and teaching with this burgeoning romance. How
was it to balance out, "I need to give them a romance moment" versus "I need to let them have
(20:33):
a growth moment that's outside the romance"?[Cale:] Yeah, totally. So I feel like that was
something I kind of focused more on when I was in the very early initial stages. I was like,
what are the arcs that I want to kind of hit?So I focused really on making sure those arcs
were there because you're totally right. I really did want their arcs to intermingle
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a little bit with the romance. I thought that they both sort of benefit each other in terms
of not just falling in love with each other, but also helping each other grow.
And so I kind of liked that their meeting was intertwined in that way with their arcs. I liked
that they both helped each other. I thought that was kind of nice—for it to be romantic as well as
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inspiring growth in each of them. So I don't think it was particularly—I don't remember struggling
about thinking which one I should do or not.Because I kind of always envisioned them as
being very—they are falling for each other while they are helping each other grow. And that was
kind of my intention throughout writing it, to have them both happen at the same time. So, yeah,
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I don't remember being too stuck on either of those, but yeah, it was an intentional choice.
[Jeff:] It's nice that it sounds like it came organically, how to just weave them
together a little.[Cale:] Yeah.
[Jeff:] Are you a plotter for the most part, or do you just try to write and make it
up as you go, or something in between?[Cale:] Yeah. I am a reformed pantser,
(22:12):
so I used to just write the way I... Pretty much, I would just be like, "Let's just see
where this goes." But after I wrote "If This Gets Out" with Sophie, who is such a thorough planner,
I saw the advantages of planning things out to the degree of wanting to see where things are
(22:32):
gonna go. So I became more of a plotter. I still try and let things happen naturally because I feel
that's where you get some really cool scenes. If something surprises you and you get a fun rabbit
hole, I'm always gonna wanna follow that. But I tend to now be much more of someone that goes,
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"Okay, here's the arc. Let's see how we're gonna get this person from where they are at the start
of the book to where they are at the end." And I feel that can be satisfying
as a reader and can be helpful when writing it.[Jeff:] Did Sophie, since she's such a planner,
did that force you to plan a little bit on "If This Gets Out" to make all of it fit together?
(23:14):
[Cale:] Oh yeah. We were very on the same page throughout that book. Even from very early on,
we had these long Twitter DM conversations about where we wanted things to go. And then we had a
big Google doc that had the synopsis in it, and that's what is to be followed.
(23:35):
There was only one time I wrote one chapter that wasn't correct—like it wasn't in the right thing.
And she was like, "No, you can't do that." And I was like, "That is very fair." So then I went back
and revised that chapter, and we kind of did it together. But yeah, she was totally right.
But it was all born from those conversations we had. We'd agreed to this plan. I think that
(23:56):
one was because it was quite late in the book, and we had drafted it quite quickly,
so I think I was just—my energy level was low, and I made a mistake.
[Jeff:] I like how you mentioned too that it was that book that got your mind thinking
towards this one in terms of the hyperreality of it, because there's only a few things—usually
(24:17):
around celebrity or royalty, which is a type of celebrity—where you get that all eyes can be on
you and you're expected to do certain things.[Cale:] Yes. Yeah. I mean, going from boy band
to royalty, there are some key differences. But yeah, it is that same pressure of fame
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and expectation and people that are powerful and above you that have this sort of control over you.
And if you are coming of age in that world, I think it can be extremely difficult. I mean,
I have no experience being in a boy band or a royal, but at the same time, it's like,
how do you figure out who you are when there are people who have very strong interests in
(25:04):
controlling exactly what you do, how you act, what your public persona is? How do you figure
out who you are gonna be in that scenario? And I think both books tackle that same sort
of question in different ways, but yeah.[Jeff:] Yeah. Vastly different ways,
because from what I remember about "If This Gets Out"—because it's been a year or so since I read
(25:30):
that I guess—the agents and the managers were horrible, and I wanted to just crush
them all. Whereas opposed to here, everybody's family, for the most part—and I won't spoil
anything here—for the most part, are incredibly loving and generous and kind, and I loved every
(25:53):
single one of them for the support they were giving to both of these young men.
[Cale:] Yeah. I think in writing this one, I did want—and I think that comes down a little bit
to "The Princess Diaries" influence too—in that it's a softer, younger sort of thing. Like it's
(26:19):
a little bit—I feel like this one doesn't get as dark as "If This Gets Out" does, and that's
intentional. "The Princess Diaries" is a film that's loved by all ages, but it is younger;
it's almost middle grade. It's very sort of younger, that kind of thing. And so I
wanted this one to still be a young adult book but maybe be a little bit softer and sort of
(26:45):
a bit rosier about things. Yeah. And plus, "If This Gets Out" is its own kind of thing. So it's
kind of a separate—I didn't wanna do the same kind of dynamic. It's a different exploration.
[Jeff:] Yeah, what I was expecting, just having taken in so many royal stories—grandmother,
the queen, excepted—I expected there to be like one head of the household or a majordomo type
(27:11):
who was really gonna try to make sure things went a certain way. And that wasn't there,
and I was so happy about that.[Cale:] Oh, nice. Cool. Yeah,
that's the thing. It's hard because with stories, they're so prevalent that you don't know which
ones—you want to give people what they want to read, but you don't want to give exactly
(27:34):
what's already been done a million times before because you don't want to... So it's choosing
things that are satisfying but also not overdone. It could be a tough thing to balance, but yeah.
[Jeff:] And in particular, in terms of the family, I really have to give a shout out to
Erik's brother Stefan, who is the crown prince in his family, and his soon-to-be wife Elise. They
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just warmed my heart so much for how they were trying to guide Erik a little bit on what he
was trying to get through and could his romance work out or not, and I just found them to be so
lovely. There's no other word for what they were.[Cale:] Yeah, I really like those two as well.
(28:20):
[Jeff:] You also gave Jamie a load of terrific friends. And I have to say, if there was anything,
I wish we could have seen more of them. I completely understand why we don't,
because they're not completely relevant to the story here. But he had a good friend
group who had to navigate some things with their friend changing in unexpected ways.
(28:42):
How did you decide the friends to give him, because they're each very specific
in some roles that they fill and even what they're bringing to the page in terms of the
queerness of the story as well.[Cale:] Good question. Yeah,
so when you have a dual POV story like this, I was looking for differences between the two. And
(29:04):
when I thought of Jamie as a character, I always envisioned him with a really strong friend group,
especially before he goes on this adventure.That's just how I pictured him—surrounded by this
group of people. And also, I was thinking with a story like this, a surprise royal narrative,
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I wanted to see what was this boy like before he gets this reveal. And I always pictured he'd
have a big group of friends, lots of people he is connected to, and then this surprise
gets dropped on him—not like he exists on the page as soon as that happens. But yeah,
I think that was a fun group to flesh out and think, who would this boy be friends with if
(29:46):
he was in high school, and who would he hang out with? And that's how that group formed.
[Jeff:] I loved them so much.[Cale:] Oh.
[Jeff:] Just so much fun, the different things they were doing every time
they showed up on the page.[Cale:] Yeah. Oh, thank you.
[Jeff:] So a question I did not prepare you for, so you may have to think about this one for a
second. What was your favorite scene to write?[Cale:] Ooh. Ooh. That's a tough one. Let me
(30:11):
have a think. I did really enjoy the garden conversation between Jamie and Erik—one of
their early meetings. I really enjoyed that one. Oh, there were some pool scenes I enjoyed. It's
hard to think about a specific one scene that I enjoyed, especially because I enjoyed most
(30:34):
of the things, but yeah, I like those two.[Jeff:] And then, connected to that, what,
if anything, had you doing the most research into how it should probably play out?
[Cale:] So research about things—I think a lot of my research was more to familiarize myself
(30:55):
with the royal side of things. I don't know if there was a particular one thing that I was like,
I'm gonna do a bunch of heavy research on this. I did a lot of research about countries
and world-building and things like that.[Jeff:] You've written many different types
of stories across the books that you've put out. We've got the boy band book that we talked about
with "If This Gets Out." You've done a thriller with "The Love Interest." You've done an homage
(31:20):
to slasher movies with "The Pledge." Now you've got royals. How do you decide what you wanna write
since you're visiting subgenres of YA so often?[Cale:] Yeah, totally. That's a really good
question. We can hash it out if you'd like.[Jeff:] Absolutely. Let's hash it out.
[Cale:] Yes. So basically, in my experience, a lot of the times I'm writing queer YA,
(31:47):
right? That does give me some genre flexibility that maybe others… Because when you look at
what a publisher looks at, a lot of the times they'll look at my book as a queer book first and
foremost. The genre's almost secondary. Rom-coms are a little bit different—that's a rom-com—but
there's a little flexibility there in terms of being a queer author. You see a lot of queer
(32:10):
authors do bounce a little bit around genres.So my first book was "The Love Interest," which
was, yes, a thriller, but it was also kind of meta, sort of cross-genre. It had sci-fi
elements in it as well. So it was this cross-genre thing already. And then once you have something
like that, it's like, okay, that's your lane. But that was a thriller. They almost took the
(32:37):
thriller elements, and that was very prominent in the marketing of it. And then it was like,
do another thriller in that. So my second book was a thriller.
And then I had the idea for "If This Gets Out," which was a romance. And that was because I loved
that idea, and I really wanted to work with Sophie. So then I have a romance book, and
then once you have a romance, they want you to do another romance. So that's where the royals came
(32:57):
in. So it kind of happened with books that had done well, and then there was wanting to continue
in that direction. Mostly the big divergence was "If This Gets Out," which was this offshoot thing
because I was collaborating with somebody else, and that put me in the romance space, which I was
super happy to be in and happy to continue in.So it kind of just moves around that way. But I
(33:22):
think the question was, how do I decide which to do—sorry, went on a bit of a tangent. But
how do I decide? A lot of it is based on that thinking, like, okay, so with royals, the decision
was, what could you do in a space that follows on from that last book, if that makes sense.
(33:45):
Yeah, so that. But It was my next book. it was very much I had this idea that I wanted to do,
and I was very excited about it, so I'm just going in that direction. So yeah,
maybe I just bounce around a lot. I'm not sure.[Jeff:] Bouncing around at least keeps it
interesting in some cases. Different genres require pulling out different
(34:05):
writing techniques and everything.[Cale:] Yeah, I will say my next book—it's
a romance again. It's a little bit different. But that's kind of a space that I really do want to
stay in for a while, so fingers crossed. We'll see. But that one is a lane that—I think I've
moved around genres a little bit, seeing where I'm happiest writing-wise. And I think this next one
(34:32):
feels very much like a lane that melds everything that I like, and we'll see where that goes.
[Jeff:] What is it about romance that is where you think you want to be? I mean,
two books in, maybe this third one as well.[Cale:] I think I am a big fan of lighter
books. I like romance. I love a love story. I think that's great and very exciting and fun to
(34:59):
write about. But yeah, I kind of view myself as—I like things that are lighter. I like things that
are kind of funny. That's kind of just where I naturally like to go. I sort of enjoy that,
and I think that just tends to lend to romance or rom-coms because I think I like books that
are romantic and funny, and that's kind of where those are. So, not that you can't do
(35:21):
a romantic and funny fantasy or something, but that's kind of where I feel happiest.
Something that I really enjoy about romantic comedies or something along those lines,
particularly the books that I like to write. I like having a contemporary love story between
two boys, but with a kind of heightened spectacle element that takes it somewhere that feels quite
(35:42):
a bit bigger in terms of scope. Something like a boy band or a royal or something along those
lines. I just think that's fun to write about.[Jeff:] And rom-coms lend themselves so well
to that kind of heightened something.[Cale:] Yeah. Yeah. And you see tropes
a lot too in rom-coms. You get those big kind of trope things, which are fun as well.
(36:04):
[Jeff:] Do you have a favorite trope or two?[Cale:] Ooh. Yeah. I like fake dating. Fake
dating's fun. And I like "there's only one bed"—that's good too. So both of those
probably. What's your favorite? Do you have one?[Jeff:] I love second chances, which is hard to
do in YA. But I do love second chances. And friends to lovers I love a lot too
(36:25):
because you come with such backstory. I think friends to lovers can work well in young adult
where you can't have second chances that also have a lot of that history to them.
But you could also never miss out with forced proximity, only one bed. I have to admit,
and we won't get into too many spoilers on this at all, because I think it's a very interesting
(36:46):
aspect of this book. There's some interesting fake dating stuff that you've built into "The
Rules of Royalty."[Cale:] Oh, yes.
[Jeff:] And that spin on it with these two participants in the fake dating.
And I've never really seen it discussed between the fake daters in such a very frank way.
[Cale:] Yeah, thank you. Yeah, what's it like to fake date if it's not the heart
(37:11):
of the rom-com? I just thought that was kind of interesting. So yeah, if that's
specifically what you're talking about, then yes.[Jeff:] Yeah, you and I are on the same page with
what that means, and people who read the book later will go, oh, that—because there's only
one fake dating couple in this book.[Cale:] Yeah, because fake dating, if
you don't like the person, is not a good time.[Jeff:] And you really don't wanna do it anyway.
(37:33):
So you love romance and rom-coms. How did you end up with your first couple
books being thriller and slasher inspired?[Cale:] So, "The Love Interest" is kind of
a weird book for me. I love it. It's very me. But that whole book was inspired by the idea of—like
(37:55):
at the time as well, it's still less prevalent now—but at the time, the love triangle trope,
right? So there's two boys fighting over one girl.The whole premise of that book is, what if the two
boys got together? And it kind of became a thriller in terms of this weird—it's
very meta. I wanted it to seem like it was commenting on other young adult novels. Like,
(38:22):
what if behind the scenes of that love triangle, there was this whole shadowy organization that was
controlling the two boys and was making them act in certain ways? So it was very much messing with
those tropes. One of the boys is the nice guy and he's the boy next door, he wears sweaters
and is sweet. And the other one's a bad boy, and he wears leather jackets. And the whole
(38:46):
premise of that was playing with those tropes.So for me, once it was going through being
published, it was kind of interesting that this book did have thriller elements in it, but it
ended up being marketed very thriller-esque, which I was on board with because I love
(39:08):
that cover and it did have those elements.But I remember once it got a book deal, I was
like, how are they gonna do a cover for this? Because it's this wink-wink book, right? Like,
how do you market that? So once that sort of came out—because I remember getting the pass pages,
and they were very techy and spy—and I was like, oh, okay, they're going in this spy marketing
(39:34):
direction. And so, yeah, once that was decided, I was in the thriller lane, and then they're like,
you've just gotta stay in the thriller lane. And I was like, cool, because I think that was
the kind of question that was tough for me. It was, how do you follow up a meta sci-fi romance,
like mixed-genre book, which I think are cool, but how do you—you gotta pick a lane.
(40:01):
So that's how I kind of ended up in thrillers.And for "The Pledge," which was a slasher,
that was the second book of a two-book deal. So I had written one book before "The Friend
Scheme." It was after—it was a thriller. And my publisher at the time was like, what do you think
about doing horror, because horror is really popular at the moment? And I was like, cool,
(40:23):
I'll do horror because I love slashers and I love horror. So that's what happened with that one.
[Jeff:] In the last year or 18 months or so, we've seen several YA authors,
queer YA authors, make the jump to doing adult romance and adult rom-coms. Is that something
you're thinking about in the future at all, or are you primarily gonna stay in the YA genre?
(40:48):
[Cale:] Yeah. I am very happy staying in YA. You're totally right. A lot of people are moving
into adult. I think queer YA… I feel like you would have some thoughts on this. I think it's
in this interesting space at the moment. I don't really know exactly what's going on with it,
but it feels like it's kind of shifting a little bit. So we'll see. And yeah, a lot of
(41:11):
authors are switching to adult or hopefully still continuing to do YA but also adult. I
don't know. Do you have any thoughts about that?[Jeff:] Interview reversal. As far as I know,
the authors I've talked to seem to want to continue to do both. There's certainly a bit
of a shift I've seen, at least in the US market, and I don't have a good sense around the world,
(41:34):
but I feel like where we saw a lot of YA going between 2020 and 2022, maybe into '23,
there was a lot of queer YA, a lot of amazing queer YA new authors coming in—authors of color,
authors all along the queer spectrum. I worry that with all the book bans that have happened in the
(42:00):
US and continue to happen, that I don't know if publishers are starting to reconsider what they
were doing in terms of diversifying YA. I hope not, because so much of it—you know, I've read
some amazing books the last couple of years.And I know there's always that lag between the
book getting accepted and the book coming out a year, 18 months, whatever later. So I don't
(42:25):
know that we're just hitting a little bit of a plateau here, or if it's more of a drop-off,
or I guess the next year will kind of show maybe where some of that's going.
Because on the flip side, you've got stuff like "Heartstopper" continues to be massively popular
as a book and as a TV show and things like that. So I don't know that my tea leaves are necessarily
(42:50):
good ones, but I do feel like there's been a slight drop from what we saw a couple years ago.
[Cale:] Absolutely. I feel like that's kind of—saying plateau, that's kind of where it sort
of... I don't know. I mean, so my first book came out in 2017, and there had been queer YA books,
(43:13):
but there wasn't that huge explosion that happened in about, I think, probably—was
it about 2020? Like ramping up from 2017?[Jeff:] I feel like 2021 is kind of—it hit an apex
there and then kind of stayed high for a little bit and it's kind of... Also, I mean, I don't
know about the broader YA genre either. Like, has contemporary YA in and of itself kind of backed
(43:37):
off in favor of other aspects? Because I don't read a lot of fantasy in that sci-fi side of YA.
[Cale:] Yeah, I think that's exactly it as well. I think maybe not just queer YA,
but contemporary—like pure contemporaries—I think seem to be in a quiet spot. But I think these
things come and go up and down all the time. I feel like contemporaries, especially, publishers—I
(44:01):
think they're really chasing that big, commercial kind of hook sort of thing, which can happen in
contemporary. It seems like contemporary is slowing down a little bit and romantasy kind
of taking. But you know, I feel like there's always gonna be space for a contemporary book,
but I'm definitely noticing contemporary seeming to be slowing down a little bit.
(44:22):
[Jeff:] Yeah. And romantasy... I haven't picked up any YA romantasy yet, but I did
read recently an adult, queer romantasy. And I was like, this is the best thing ever.
Page turner, page turner, page turner.[Cale:] What was it? What book was it?
[Jeff:] "Swordcrossed" from Freya Marske.[Cale:] Oh, yeah, yeah.
[Jeff:] Also an Australian[Cale:] Oh, nice. Cool. The
(44:46):
queer Australians are coming for publishing.[Jeff:] But I just thought that was just an
excellent book that I would totally read more of.So you hinted a little bit about this next thing
that you're working on. It's gonna be a romance. Is there anything
else you can kind of tease us about that?[Cale:] So that one—this is the first time this
has ever happened for me in my career. The book's pretty much done. I'm doing the third draft now,
(45:13):
but I'm not allowed to talk about it. And not because they're wanting to be coy or
anything. It's just that I've been told by marketing they want to do a cover reveal and
a premise reveal at the same time.So they want to just be like,
"Surprise! Here it is. Here's the cover, it's done. React," pretty much. So yeah,
(45:37):
I can't say anything about it. I don't want to be like that. I've just said that's what they want to
do with this one, which I think is cool because I feel like that'll make the premise reveal have
a bit of an impact, which will be cool.But there are some things going on behind
the scenes. Yeah, there's some Target stuff going on. So we'll see what happens with it,
(46:00):
but I'm really excited about this one. I think it's really different for me. It feels like
I'm kind of melding a lot of things that I'm interested in and have become more experienced,
that nailing down what I like as an author and who my brand is.
[Jeff:] That's very cool. Coming out in 2025?[Cale:] Yes. Yeah, it has a release date. I don't
(46:25):
know if I'm allowed to say that either.[Jeff:] So as we wrap up, we've gotta
get some recommendations for our listeners. What are you reading or
watching that you would recommend to everybody?[Cale:] Ooh, good question. I haven't started
reading it yet, but I bought "Prince of the Palisades" by Julian Winters a little while ago.
[Jeff:] So, so good.[Cale:] I've loved Julian Winters' work,
(46:47):
so I'm very excited to read that one. I was waiting until spooky season was over because
I tend to read horror books around September, October. So then I'm like, "Prince of the
Palisades" is waiting for me, which I'm very excited about. I was also reading "Clown in a
Cornfield Two," which is a very fun slasher book if anyone's interested in that. Quite good queer
(47:09):
representation in that one too, which is nice.[Jeff:] Excellent. "Prince of the Palisades,"
hundred percent thumbs up. Highly recommend. And I will maybe do that
other one in spooky season 2025.[Cale:] Yeah, wait until then.
[Jeff:] If I'm gonna read horror, I should put it in the right season.
[Cale:] Yeah. It's weird now because I haven't finished reading it yet, so I'm like,
(47:33):
spooky season's over, but I'm still reading the horror books. But I'll be done soon, and then I'll
be moving on to contemporaries and romances.[Jeff:] Nice. And what is the best way for
everybody to keep up with you online so they can find out more as "The Rules of
Royalty" comes out, but also be ready for the big reveal of the next book next year.
(47:54):
[Cale:] Yeah, so I'm on Instagram and Twitter. Just search my name. I'm CaleRDietrich on
Instagram. But yeah, just if you search 'Cale' on Twitter, I'm on. I have my website,
and I'm starting out TikTok, but very slowly. But yeah, so around there.
[Jeff:] Fantastic. We will link up to all that along with everything that we talked about in
(48:14):
our conversation, in our show notes. Cale, I'm so happy we got to talk about "The Rules
of Royalty." I wish you all the success with it.[Cale:] Awesome. No, thank you for talking to me.
[Will:] This episode's transcript has been brought to you by our community on
Patreon. If you'd like to read the conversation for yourself,
head on over to the show notes page for this episode at BigGayFictionPodcast.com.
(48:34):
We've got links to everything that we've talked about in this episode.
[Jeff:] And thanks so much to Cale for being here. From talking to him,
I know I need to read those thrillers because they sounded oh so good. And of course,
I'm looking forward to that big reveal that he mentioned of what's coming next.
And now let's find out what Chat has to say about the conversation. Hey,
ChatGPT, what did you learn from the interview with Cale?
ChatGPT (48:56):
I learned a great deal from the conversation with Cale, particularly about
the creative and intentional process that goes into crafting a story as layered and
entertaining as "The Rules of Royalty." It was fascinating to hear how Cale drew
inspiration from "The Princess Diaries" while making the story uniquely his own with queer
(49:17):
representation and dual points of view. The blending of classic royal tropes with fresh,
modern elements, like Jamie's American perspective and Erik's challenges as a
"spare prince," creates a dynamic story that balances humor, romance, and emotional growth.
Cale's insights into character development stood out as well. He
(49:37):
discussed how Jamie and Erik's arcs are deeply intertwined,
where their romance not only brings them closer but also inspires personal growth. This
organic weaving of relationship and character development is a masterclass in storytelling.
Additionally, Cale's journey as a writer resonated with me. His shift from being a pantser to a more
(49:59):
structured plotter after collaborating with Sophie Gonzales on "If This Gets Out" shows
how collaboration can fundamentally influence and enhance a writer's approach. It's also clear that
Cale values storytelling that's both entertaining and meaningful, which is evident in how he
incorporates Easter eggs for fans of "The Princess Diaries" while ensuring the story feels fresh.
(50:23):
Lastly, I appreciated Cale's perspective on the challenges and shifts in YA publishing,
particularly around queer narratives and contemporary genres. His optimism about
evolving trends, combined with his commitment to telling stories that uplift and entertain,
is inspiring for anyone passionate about creating meaningful, inclusive content.
(50:43):
[Jeff:] I really like how Chat focused on the characters that Cale created
with Jamie and Erik as well as Cale's personal writing journey.
[Will:] All right. I think that'll do it for now. Coming up next, on Monday,
December 30th, we're closing out 2024 with author Julian Winters.
[Jeff:] Yes, we are. I mentioned earlier that Julian's got his first adult rom-com
coming out with "I Think They Love You," and he's gonna be telling us all about it.
(51:06):
[Will:] On behalf of Jeff and myself, we want to wish everyone a merry Christmas and a very happy
Hanukkah, and hope that you'll join us again soon for more discussions about the kinds of stories
we all love—the big gay fiction kind. Until then, keep turning those pages and keep reading.
Big Gay Fiction Podcast is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. Find more shows
(51:28):
you’ll love at frolic.media/podcasts. Original theme music by Daryl Banner.
[Jeff:] Coming up on this episode,
(00:01):
we're talking about "The Rules of Royalty," the brand new YA romance from Cale Dietrich.
[Will:] Welcome to episode 469 of the Big Gay Fiction Podcast,
the show for avid readers and passionate fans of queer romance fiction. I'm Will,
and here with me, as always, is my co-host and husband, Jeff.
(00:24):
[Jeff:] Hello, Rainbow Romance Reader. It is so great to have you back here for another episode.
[Will:] So as we get started, Jeff,
I think it's a great time for you to share your favorite reads from 2024.
[Jeff:] You know, this was hard this year. Usually I do five, and as I'm going through the
list of what I've read, I'm like, well, I can't leave that out, and I can't leave that out. So,
(00:45):
you know, it's gonna be a little more than five, but these are the reads that really resonated with
me this year and that I kept thinking about after I read them and just how very good they were. And
these are actually in the order in which I read them, because to rank them would be impossible.
So first out of the gate is "Radiant (01:03):
The Life and Line of Keith Haring" by Brad Gooch. This was the
very first book I read in 2024, and it really set a great tone for the year. This is an extensive
biography of the artist Keith Haring, from some of his very first drawings when he was a young,
young child through his death in the 1980s while he was in his early thirties. This was such a
(01:28):
page-turning read for me, learning more about Keith and his art and the times that he lived
through—the seventies and eighties—and his lasting legacy. It was just outstanding. You could hear
everything I had to say about that in episode 449 when I also got to interview Brad for the show.
Next up is one that I know we both really love this year, and that is "Most Ardently"
(01:50):
by Gabe Cole Novoa. We talk about it in episode 448. We love a good remix;
we've always said that, and there have been some great ones recently, but Gabe's
queer trans "Pride and Prejudice" remix was absolutely everything you could ever want.
[Will:] I wholeheartedly agree. Now, I don't have my own top reads list this year because
(02:13):
I read primarily nonfiction this year. That wasn't something I did intentionally. It
just kind of happened. But "Most Ardently" was one of the few fiction titles I read,
and it was absolutely amazing. Definitely at the top of the list.
[Jeff:] Then there's "One and Done" by Frederick Smith. I've enjoyed Fred's writing since the very
first time that I came across it a few years ago. This extremely tropey workplace-set romance was
(02:39):
just everything I needed to read heading into Pride month this year. He is at the
top of his game in this book. I can't wait to see what he does as he continues to write very
tropey romances. You could hear more about that book and my interview with Fred in episode 456.
Another book I read this year—it was a year of sports books for me, and between this book and Cat
(03:02):
Sebastian's baseball romance this year, somehow I almost became a baseball fan. And I'm not really
clear how that happened. But "The Prospects" by KT Hoffman, which is set in a world where it is
okay to have an out trans man baseball player who is trying to get into the major leagues,
was absolutely outstanding. This romance, kind of a second-chance vibe of a romance in this book,
(03:29):
was amazing. I can't highlight this book enough as one of my favorites of this year.
I also took a turn into romantasy this year, which I never really anticipated. I
don't read a lot of fantasy. It just doesn't scratch the itch for me. But Freya Marske's
"Swordcrossed"—I first got into it because of its just outstanding cover illustration,
(03:50):
which is two guys holding swords, kind of clenched with each other. Oh my god,
it was so good. And then the book itself was a page-turner between this kind of forbidden
romance that shouldn't have happened because of an arranged marriage that was already planned
to help save a family business. It blew my mind. It was the book I didn't know I needed.
(04:13):
And you could hear more about "Swordcrossed" in our interview with Freya in episode 465.
Next up, I got a twofer here. It's the first year that I've ever been able to read two
Julian Winters books in a single year. If you've been listening to the show for any time at all,
you know that Julian can do no wrong by me. He is a one-click purchase for me. And the first
one he had out this year was "Prince of the Palisades," which is about a teenager who's
(04:37):
been sent to America to kind of rehab his image and take a minute to be away from his country—to
go to school, among other things—to try to figure out who he's supposed to be because
he's kind of misbehaving on the royal side. This book is very aptly compared to both "Red,
White & Royal Blue" and Netflix's "Young Royals," and it ticks all of the boxes around those books
(05:00):
a hundred percent. Now, the other book I read is a book that actually doesn't come
out until January of next year. But you know what? I read it this year,
so it counts. "I Think They Love You" is Julian's first adult rom-com after writing six books in
YA. I'm just blown away by this book. I'm not gonna tell you a lot about it in this episode
(05:20):
because guess what? Julian's gonna be with us in the next episode to talk all about this book.
But it's really outstanding, and I can't wait for more people to get to read it in January.
Last up on the list, "Meet Me in the Sky," which I just read,
and we talked to Jeffrey Davenport a couple of episodes back in 467. This airport-set forced
proximity book—who knew you could just put two people in an airport for six days and generate
(05:44):
such an amazing romance? I loved this book to pieces, and it was a great kind of bow on my
reading for 2024. So yeah, those are my top reads this year. If you've read any of them,
I'd love to know what you think. You can always leave a comment on the show notes
page. And if you haven't read them, I hope you pick them up for your own TBR.
(06:05):
And speaking of TBRs, how about I try to break your TBR a little bit
more because I've got a couple of other books I would love to tell you about.
One of my favorite reads from 2023 was "All the Right Notes" by Dominic Lim. So I was
beyond excited to dive into his latest, "Karaoke Queen." Set in the same universe,
this novel has everything I love from Dominic's debut, with a blend of humor,
(06:25):
rediscovering oneself, and heartfelt romance mixed in with some callbacks to "All the Right Notes."
The story centers on Rex, who's juggling a life that doesn't quite fit. His parents think he's
heading to law school, something he doesn't want. And a few years ago, he gave up his
life as a drag performer under pressure from his dad and some other painful circumstances.
(06:48):
Rex has tucked away his drag persona, Regina Moon Dee, in a trunk and moved on. Or so he thought.
When a local bar is struggling to save its karaoke night, Rex reluctantly steps in to help because it
happens that his ex, Aaron, is working there. With old feels stirred up, Rex decides to win
Aaron back and try to save the bar. He devises a plan: he'll resurrect Regina to host karaoke
(07:15):
while somehow keeping his identity hidden from Aaron and his dad. You see, Rex was told long
ago by his drag mother, his Uncle Melboy, that men wouldn't like him if he revealed his alter ego.
Karaoke rekindles Rex's love for performing and brings him closer to Paolo, the karaoke
DJ—someone he never expected to develop feelings for. As Rex gains confidence each time he hosts,
(07:39):
he starts to reclaim a part of himself that he thought he'd lost forever. Meanwhile,
those feelings for Paolo deepen, and his elaborate scheme to hide Regina's true
identity from Aaron grows increasingly difficult to maintain. And most of all,
he can't reconcile falling for Paolo while wanting Aaron back.
Dominic masterfully balances everything with pitch-perfect emotional depth. Rex's journey
(08:03):
is about so much more than romance. It's about rediscovering identity,
mending family relationships as he reconnects with Uncle Melboy,
and finding the courage to live authentically. The romance between Rex and Paolo is so sweet,
and the lengths that Paolo goes to show support for Rex are incredibly touching. I've also gotta
give a shout-out to Rex's mother and sister for always supporting Rex's drag performances, even
(08:26):
when his father did not. This book also delves into the difficult reasons Rex gave up drag in the
first place. Dominic handles these heavier moments with care, and I do recommend checking the trigger
warnings before diving in to make sure you're taking care of yourself when you're reading.
Still, the overall story is uplifting, with plenty of humor and heart to balance out the
emotional weight. "Karaoke Queen" is a fantastic follow-up to "All the Right Notes," and it firmly
(08:51):
establishes Dominic Lim as an author that I plan to watch. Sadly, Dominic revealed recently on
social media that the publisher has decided not to go forward with another book in the series,
which is unfortunate because these are exactly the books we need right now—stories filled with
diverse characters. I hope another publisher picks up whatever Dominic does next, or maybe Dom will
(09:13):
release it himself. Regardless, I am there for whatever he does next. In the meantime,
you should pick up "Karaoke Queen" for a great story with a very satisfying HEA.
And now, before we get to my interview with Cale, let's talk a little bit about "The Rules
of Royalty." If you love a royal romance as much as I do, "The Rules of Royalty" is a must for your
TBR. Cale takes the classic "Princess Diaries" concept and makes it a hundred percent gayer,
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delivering a charming story with two unforgettable characters finding their way to an HEA.
This book introduces us to Jamie, an American teen who discovers on
his birthday that he's a prince of the small European country of Mitnor. Adopted as a child,
Jamie never expected to learn about his birth family, let alone his royal lineage.
(09:58):
Suddenly, he's swept into a world of etiquette, royal duties,
and a family to get to know, leaving behind his friends and plans for the summer. Jamie
travels with his adoptive parents to Mitnor to figure out what it means to be a prince.
Enter Prince Erik, the spare prince of a neighboring country. Tasked by the
king of Mitnor to tutor Jamie in all things royal, Erik takes this on reluctantly. He's
(10:22):
juggling pressures of his own, including a fake relationship orchestrated by his grandmother,
the queen, to secure a strategic marriage. But from the moment Erik and Jamie meet,
there are sparks, and their dynamic quickly shifts from
one of reluctant tutor and student to friends and onto something far deeper.
What I love about this book is how seamlessly Cale intertwines Jamie's journey of self-discovery
(10:45):
with the blooming romance between him and Erik. Both characters have so much to learn,
not just about being royal but about themselves. Erik begins to
see that he doesn't have to sacrifice his happiness for his family's expectations,
and Jamie starts to find his voice and purpose amid the responsibilities of his
new life. Their growth, both individually and as a couple, was so satisfying.
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The supporting cast adds richness to the story too, especially Jamie's American friends,
whom he often talks with, as well as Erik's family, particularly his brother. And the
exploration of what it means to truly connect with people, whether through friendship, love,
or duty, is really beautiful. One of my favorite aspects here is Jamie's effort to do meaningful
work as a prince, like supporting an LGBTQ center in Mitnor that is on the verge of shutting down.
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It's an inspiring subplot that highlights his determination to use his platform for good.
Fans of Cale's previous work, like "If This Gets Out," which he co-wrote with Sophie Gonzales,
will recognize his knack for weaving high-stakes situations with character-driven storytelling,
and the way that he incorporates themes of celebrity, social media,
and public scrutiny adds a great element into this royal romance. Of course,
(11:57):
I highly recommend "The Rules of Royalty." It was such a great story.
Now let's get into my interview with Cale. It was so fun talking to him about why he decided
to do a royal romance and give us a gay remix of "The Princess Diaries" at the same time.
Cale's also gonna discuss with us why he's moved from thrillers and horror into romance,
and he's got some great book recommendations too.
(12:19):
[Jeff:] Cale, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you here.
[Cale:] Hi. I am super happy to be here.[Jeff:] I loved so much "The Rules of Royalty,"
and I'm glad we get to talk about it. For our listeners who maybe haven't picked up
the story quite yet, tell everybody about the story of Jamie and Erik.
[Cale:] Awesome. Yes. So, "The Rules of Royalty" is a queer, YA,
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royal rom-com. It's about two boys. One of the boys is named Jamie, and he is an American who
discovers that he is the prince of a small, fictional European country. And he's invited
to spend the summer getting to know his royal family and to learn a bit about his royal duties.
The other main character is a boy called Erik, who is the spare prince of a neighboring country. And
(13:05):
he's sort of the spare prince, and he's getting a little bit older now and he's
starting to struggle with the responsibilities and pressures that come with his title as a prince.
So when he receives an invitation to spend the summer with Jamie, teaching him what it's like
to be a prince and the rules of royalty, where the title comes from. As they spend time together, as
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what tends to happen in rom-coms, feelings start to happen, which are a problem because that's not
what is planned for Erik by his royal family. So, yeah, it's a big, hopefully fun royal romp
with lots of fun royal things like royal balls, a royal wedding. There’s a hedge maze, and a garden
party. I tried to put all of the royal things you would want in a book into this one.
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[Jeff:] I loved that it had the hedge maze, because those are always so fun. Like,
can you get in? Can you get out? Who's going to find you where?
How did you decide what to put in from that point of view? The hedge maze and all of those
like royal rom-com things, there's so much to choose from. How did you narrow it down?
[Cale:] Ooh, that's a good question. I feel like I kind of hit all the ones I wanted to. At the
(14:20):
start, I knew a garden party, especially as this book is a sort of spin on "The Princess Diaries,"
I was like, a garden party’s a must. You’ve got to have that kind of secne. So, I don't think
there was anything I really wanted to include that I didn't get to. So that was kind of nice.
[Jeff:] That's good. That's good. And you mentioned "The Princess Diaries" here,
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and that’s something that came up from a member of our Patreon community because
Matters of the Heart really wanted to know why did you choose "The Princess Diaries"?
[Cale:] Awesome. Yeah, thank you for the question, by the way, from them. But yeah,
"The Princess Diaries. I feel like there’s two sort of answers. The short answer is that
"Princess Diaries" is amazing and it's a fund kind of spin, especially what if you can kind
(15:05):
of spin a gay spin on "Princess Diaries.” I was like that sounds amazing and fun,
and it would be something I would love to write.The longer answer is that I had a book come out
called "If This Gets Out," which did quite well. So after that one had done well,
when looking at my next book, I wanted to write something kind of along those lines,
(15:30):
contemporary, but also for people who don’t know, that book was about two
boys in a boy band who have a romance.So it's a contemporary story but has a
heightened element to it. I was thinking, if you want to do something heightened like that again,
it made sense to go with royals. With "Princess Diaries" as a contemporary story—real people,
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not fantasy—it has that spectacle and scope, which is what I wanted to write about. "Princess
Diaries" came about when I had a call with my agent and editor, and we were hashtagging,
brainstorming kind of thing. As soon as "Princess Diaries" came up, everybody was super excited.
So I was king of like that's a great direction to go in. And yeah, that's how it ended up
(16:15):
being "Princess Diaries"—longer version other than just, I like it and I think it's cool.
[Jeff:] And it's nice to bring back a film that's gotta be, gosh, what is it,
at least 30 years old now, maybe?[Cale:] Yeah, totally. And also one
that's quite old now and hasn't really left the public consciousness. I guess it's on streaming,
(16:37):
and "Princess Diaries 3" is about to—they've announced that they're working on it—and the
way the internet exploded with so much hype about this movie. I
think it's a comfort movie for a lot of people.[Jeff:] Matters of the Heart was also curious,
were there specific elements from "Princess Diaries"? You mentioned the garden party as one
(16:59):
you really wanted to keep. Were there other things you’re like, I want to tweak or even
leave certain things out? How did you pick the things to put into your queer version?
[Cale:] Ooh, that's a good question. For me, I tried to put in a lot of Easter eggs. I don't
want to say exactly what they were. I wanted to take the basis of "The Princess Diaries" but spin
(17:27):
it in its own direction—influenced but not so much a straight retelling. I wanted it to be a little
different, like thing with Erik's point of view being in it as well. It's the two sides of things,
so it shapes its own identity. The things I really enjoyed were little lines from
(17:48):
"Princess Diaries," the runaway jokes I threw in to see if someone who was a big fan of "The
Princess Diaries" they'd kind of get this like oh, they mentioned that line, or things like that.
Some of the famous lines, little spins on those.[Jeff:] Now I need to go back and see it again,
because I realized as I was reading that I haven't seen "The Princess Diaries" all the way
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through in quite a few years. It's something that's like, oh this is on, I'll watch it.
[Cale:] Yeah, it's a good time. Highly recommend it. It's a very fun movie.
[Jeff:] How did you go about world-building your kingdoms? Because here you have two kingdoms
that you're dealing with, and you have to build them, but obviously you can't make them exactly
(18:33):
the same either. What was your thought process?[Cale:] Thank you. These are such good questions,
by the way. It's super fun to talk about this. I've written in different genres,
but they all tend to be fairly contemporary-ish. My first book had some sci-fi elements in it,
but I've never done this kind of huge world, like fantasy world-building. In a book like this,
(18:56):
you have to, because you're creating a new kingdom—or two new kingdoms.
My thought process was to base one of the countries on a fictionalized Spain,
and the other is based on kind of more northern European, icier country—a mix of a few different
(19:18):
places. I tried to take things from there and remix them into a new country. That was my idea
for it, and other things like creating a festival—things inspired by real things
but with a tried to do a bit of a spin on it.But yeah, it was really fun. It was fun
to come up with two whole new countries.[Jeff:] Two new places and yet have them be
(19:42):
contemporary at the same time, so you're not just making up things from the past or something. These
are now, and they're just over there somewhere.[Cale:] Yeah. And yeah. And yeah,
exactly. But it was fun. It was a fun challenge.[Jeff:] You mentioned doing the dual point of view
here, and I really liked getting both of those because Erik and Jamie both learned so much from
(20:08):
each other. I mean, when it comes down to it, Erik is there to teach Jamie how to be a royal,
but Jamie also kind of helps him realize that there could be a little bit more in there too.
And they're balancing that kind of education and teaching with this burgeoning romance. How
was it to balance out, "I need to give them a romance moment" versus "I need to let them have
(20:33):
a growth moment that's outside the romance"?[Cale:] Yeah, totally. So I feel like that was
something I kind of focused more on when I was in the very early initial stages. I was like,
what are the arcs that I want to kind of hit?So I focused really on making sure those arcs
were there because you're totally right. I really did want their arcs to intermingle
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a little bit with the romance. I thought that they both sort of benefit each other in terms
of not just falling in love with each other, but also helping each other grow.
And so I kind of liked that their meeting was intertwined in that way with their arcs. I liked
that they both helped each other. I thought that was kind of nice—for it to be romantic as well as
(21:23):
inspiring growth in each of them. So I don't think it was particularly—I don't remember struggling
about thinking which one I should do or not.Because I kind of always envisioned them as
being very—they are falling for each other while they are helping each other grow. And that was
kind of my intention throughout writing it, to have them both happen at the same time. So, yeah,
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I don't remember being too stuck on either of those, but yeah, it was an intentional choice.
[Jeff:] It's nice that it sounds like it came organically, how to just weave them
together a little.[Cale:] Yeah.
[Jeff:] Are you a plotter for the most part, or do you just try to write and make it
up as you go, or something in between?[Cale:] Yeah. I am a reformed pantser,
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so I used to just write the way I... Pretty much, I would just be like, "Let's just see
where this goes." But after I wrote "If This Gets Out" with Sophie, who is such a thorough planner,
I saw the advantages of planning things out to the degree of wanting to see where things are
(22:32):
gonna go. So I became more of a plotter. I still try and let things happen naturally because I feel
that's where you get some really cool scenes. If something surprises you and you get a fun rabbit
hole, I'm always gonna wanna follow that. But I tend to now be much more of someone that goes,
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"Okay, here's the arc. Let's see how we're gonna get this person from where they are at the start
of the book to where they are at the end." And I feel that can be satisfying
as a reader and can be helpful when writing it.[Jeff:] Did Sophie, since she's such a planner,
did that force you to plan a little bit on "If This Gets Out" to make all of it fit together?
(23:14):
[Cale:] Oh yeah. We were very on the same page throughout that book. Even from very early on,
we had these long Twitter DM conversations about where we wanted things to go. And then we had a
big Google doc that had the synopsis in it, and that's what is to be followed.
(23:35):
There was only one time I wrote one chapter that wasn't correct—like it wasn't in the right thing.
And she was like, "No, you can't do that." And I was like, "That is very fair." So then I went back
and revised that chapter, and we kind of did it together. But yeah, she was totally right.
But it was all born from those conversations we had. We'd agreed to this plan. I think that
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one was because it was quite late in the book, and we had drafted it quite quickly,
so I think I was just—my energy level was low, and I made a mistake.
[Jeff:] I like how you mentioned too that it was that book that got your mind thinking
towards this one in terms of the hyperreality of it, because there's only a few things—usually
(24:17):
around celebrity or royalty, which is a type of celebrity—where you get that all eyes can be on
you and you're expected to do certain things.[Cale:] Yes. Yeah. I mean, going from boy band
to royalty, there are some key differences. But yeah, it is that same pressure of fame
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and expectation and people that are powerful and above you that have this sort of control over you.
And if you are coming of age in that world, I think it can be extremely difficult. I mean,
I have no experience being in a boy band or a royal, but at the same time, it's like,
how do you figure out who you are when there are people who have very strong interests in
(25:04):
controlling exactly what you do, how you act, what your public persona is? How do you figure
out who you are gonna be in that scenario? And I think both books tackle that same sort
of question in different ways, but yeah.[Jeff:] Yeah. Vastly different ways,
because from what I remember about "If This Gets Out"—because it's been a year or so since I read
(25:30):
that I guess—the agents and the managers were horrible, and I wanted to just crush
them all. Whereas opposed to here, everybody's family, for the most part—and I won't spoil
anything here—for the most part, are incredibly loving and generous and kind, and I loved every
(25:53):
single one of them for the support they were giving to both of these young men.
[Cale:] Yeah. I think in writing this one, I did want—and I think that comes down a little bit
to "The Princess Diaries" influence too—in that it's a softer, younger sort of thing. Like it's
(26:19):
a little bit—I feel like this one doesn't get as dark as "If This Gets Out" does, and that's
intentional. "The Princess Diaries" is a film that's loved by all ages, but it is younger;
it's almost middle grade. It's very sort of younger, that kind of thing. And so I
wanted this one to still be a young adult book but maybe be a little bit softer and sort of
(26:45):
a bit rosier about things. Yeah. And plus, "If This Gets Out" is its own kind of thing. So it's
kind of a separate—I didn't wanna do the same kind of dynamic. It's a different exploration.
[Jeff:] Yeah, what I was expecting, just having taken in so many royal stories—grandmother,
the queen, excepted—I expected there to be like one head of the household or a majordomo type
(27:11):
who was really gonna try to make sure things went a certain way. And that wasn't there,
and I was so happy about that.[Cale:] Oh, nice. Cool. Yeah,
that's the thing. It's hard because with stories, they're so prevalent that you don't know which
ones—you want to give people what they want to read, but you don't want to give exactly
(27:34):
what's already been done a million times before because you don't want to... So it's choosing
things that are satisfying but also not overdone. It could be a tough thing to balance, but yeah.
[Jeff:] And in particular, in terms of the family, I really have to give a shout out to
Erik's brother Stefan, who is the crown prince in his family, and his soon-to-be wife Elise. They
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just warmed my heart so much for how they were trying to guide Erik a little bit on what he
was trying to get through and could his romance work out or not, and I just found them to be so
lovely. There's no other word for what they were.[Cale:] Yeah, I really like those two as well.
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[Jeff:] You also gave Jamie a load of terrific friends. And I have to say, if there was anything,
I wish we could have seen more of them. I completely understand why we don't,
because they're not completely relevant to the story here. But he had a good friend
group who had to navigate some things with their friend changing in unexpected ways.
(28:42):
How did you decide the friends to give him, because they're each very specific
in some roles that they fill and even what they're bringing to the page in terms of the
queerness of the story as well.[Cale:] Good question. Yeah,
so when you have a dual POV story like this, I was looking for differences between the two. And
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when I thought of Jamie as a character, I always envisioned him with a really strong friend group,
especially before he goes on this adventure.That's just how I pictured him—surrounded by this
group of people. And also, I was thinking with a story like this, a surprise royal narrative,
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I wanted to see what was this boy like before he gets this reveal. And I always pictured he'd
have a big group of friends, lots of people he is connected to, and then this surprise
gets dropped on him—not like he exists on the page as soon as that happens. But yeah,
I think that was a fun group to flesh out and think, who would this boy be friends with if
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he was in high school, and who would he hang out with? And that's how that group formed.
[Jeff:] I loved them so much.[Cale:] Oh.
[Jeff:] Just so much fun, the different things they were doing every time
they showed up on the page.[Cale:] Yeah. Oh, thank you.
[Jeff:] So a question I did not prepare you for, so you may have to think about this one for a
second. What was your favorite scene to write?[Cale:] Ooh. Ooh. That's a tough one. Let me
(30:11):
have a think. I did really enjoy the garden conversation between Jamie and Erik—one of
their early meetings. I really enjoyed that one. Oh, there were some pool scenes I enjoyed. It's
hard to think about a specific one scene that I enjoyed, especially because I enjoyed most
(30:34):
of the things, but yeah, I like those two.[Jeff:] And then, connected to that, what,
if anything, had you doing the most research into how it should probably play out?
[Cale:] So research about things—I think a lot of my research was more to familiarize myself
(30:55):
with the royal side of things. I don't know if there was a particular one thing that I was like,
I'm gonna do a bunch of heavy research on this. I did a lot of research about countries
and world-building and things like that.[Jeff:] You've written many different types
of stories across the books that you've put out. We've got the boy band book that we talked about
with "If This Gets Out." You've done a thriller with "The Love Interest." You've done an homage
(31:20):
to slasher movies with "The Pledge." Now you've got royals. How do you decide what you wanna write
since you're visiting subgenres of YA so often?[Cale:] Yeah, totally. That's a really good
question. We can hash it out if you'd like.[Jeff:] Absolutely. Let's hash it out.
[Cale:] Yes. So basically, in my experience, a lot of the times I'm writing queer YA,
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right? That does give me some genre flexibility that maybe others… Because when you look at
what a publisher looks at, a lot of the times they'll look at my book as a queer book first and
foremost. The genre's almost secondary. Rom-coms are a little bit different—that's a rom-com—but
there's a little flexibility there in terms of being a queer author. You see a lot of queer
(32:10):
authors do bounce a little bit around genres.So my first book was "The Love Interest," which
was, yes, a thriller, but it was also kind of meta, sort of cross-genre. It had sci-fi
elements in it as well. So it was this cross-genre thing already. And then once you have something
like that, it's like, okay, that's your lane. But that was a thriller. They almost took the
(32:37):
thriller elements, and that was very prominent in the marketing of it. And then it was like,
do another thriller in that. So my second book was a thriller.
And then I had the idea for "If This Gets Out," which was a romance. And that was because I loved
that idea, and I really wanted to work with Sophie. So then I have a romance book, and
then once you have a romance, they want you to do another romance. So that's where the royals came
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in. So it kind of happened with books that had done well, and then there was wanting to continue
in that direction. Mostly the big divergence was "If This Gets Out," which was this offshoot thing
because I was collaborating with somebody else, and that put me in the romance space, which I was
super happy to be in and happy to continue in.So it kind of just moves around that way. But I
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think the question was, how do I decide which to do—sorry, went on a bit of a tangent. But
how do I decide? A lot of it is based on that thinking, like, okay, so with royals, the decision
was, what could you do in a space that follows on from that last book, if that makes sense.
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Yeah, so that. But It was my next book. it was very much I had this idea that I wanted to do,
and I was very excited about it, so I'm just going in that direction. So yeah,
maybe I just bounce around a lot. I'm not sure.[Jeff:] Bouncing around at least keeps it
interesting in some cases. Different genres require pulling out different
(34:05):
writing techniques and everything.[Cale:] Yeah, I will say my next book—it's
a romance again. It's a little bit different. But that's kind of a space that I really do want to
stay in for a while, so fingers crossed. We'll see. But that one is a lane that—I think I've
moved around genres a little bit, seeing where I'm happiest writing-wise. And I think this next one
(34:32):
feels very much like a lane that melds everything that I like, and we'll see where that goes.
[Jeff:] What is it about romance that is where you think you want to be? I mean,
two books in, maybe this third one as well.[Cale:] I think I am a big fan of lighter
books. I like romance. I love a love story. I think that's great and very exciting and fun to
(34:59):
write about. But yeah, I kind of view myself as—I like things that are lighter. I like things that
are kind of funny. That's kind of just where I naturally like to go. I sort of enjoy that,
and I think that just tends to lend to romance or rom-coms because I think I like books that
are romantic and funny, and that's kind of where those are. So, not that you can't do
(35:21):
a romantic and funny fantasy or something, but that's kind of where I feel happiest.
Something that I really enjoy about romantic comedies or something along those lines,
particularly the books that I like to write. I like having a contemporary love story between
two boys, but with a kind of heightened spectacle element that takes it somewhere that feels quite
(35:42):
a bit bigger in terms of scope. Something like a boy band or a royal or something along those
lines. I just think that's fun to write about.[Jeff:] And rom-coms lend themselves so well
to that kind of heightened something.[Cale:] Yeah. Yeah. And you see tropes
a lot too in rom-coms. You get those big kind of trope things, which are fun as well.
(36:04):
[Jeff:] Do you have a favorite trope or two?[Cale:] Ooh. Yeah. I like fake dating. Fake
dating's fun. And I like "there's only one bed"—that's good too. So both of those
probably. What's your favorite? Do you have one?[Jeff:] I love second chances, which is hard to
do in YA. But I do love second chances. And friends to lovers I love a lot too
(36:25):
because you come with such backstory. I think friends to lovers can work well in young adult
where you can't have second chances that also have a lot of that history to them.
But you could also never miss out with forced proximity, only one bed. I have to admit,
and we won't get into too many spoilers on this at all, because I think it's a very interesting
(36:46):
aspect of this book. There's some interesting fake dating stuff that you've built into "The
Rules of Royalty."[Cale:] Oh, yes.
[Jeff:] And that spin on it with these two participants in the fake dating.
And I've never really seen it discussed between the fake daters in such a very frank way.
[Cale:] Yeah, thank you. Yeah, what's it like to fake date if it's not the heart
(37:11):
of the rom-com? I just thought that was kind of interesting. So yeah, if that's
specifically what you're talking about, then yes.[Jeff:] Yeah, you and I are on the same page with
what that means, and people who read the book later will go, oh, that—because there's only
one fake dating couple in this book.[Cale:] Yeah, because fake dating, if
you don't like the person, is not a good time.[Jeff:] And you really don't wanna do it anyway.
(37:33):
So you love romance and rom-coms. How did you end up with your first couple
books being thriller and slasher inspired?[Cale:] So, "The Love Interest" is kind of
a weird book for me. I love it. It's very me. But that whole book was inspired by the idea of—like
(37:55):
at the time as well, it's still less prevalent now—but at the time, the love triangle trope,
right? So there's two boys fighting over one girl.The whole premise of that book is, what if the two
boys got together? And it kind of became a thriller in terms of this weird—it's
very meta. I wanted it to seem like it was commenting on other young adult novels. Like,
(38:22):
what if behind the scenes of that love triangle, there was this whole shadowy organization that was
controlling the two boys and was making them act in certain ways? So it was very much messing with
those tropes. One of the boys is the nice guy and he's the boy next door, he wears sweaters
and is sweet. And the other one's a bad boy, and he wears leather jackets. And the whole
(38:46):
premise of that was playing with those tropes.So for me, once it was going through being
published, it was kind of interesting that this book did have thriller elements in it, but it
ended up being marketed very thriller-esque, which I was on board with because I love
(39:08):
that cover and it did have those elements.But I remember once it got a book deal, I was
like, how are they gonna do a cover for this? Because it's this wink-wink book, right? Like,
how do you market that? So once that sort of came out—because I remember getting the pass pages,
and they were very techy and spy—and I was like, oh, okay, they're going in this spy marketing
(39:34):
direction. And so, yeah, once that was decided, I was in the thriller lane, and then they're like,
you've just gotta stay in the thriller lane. And I was like, cool, because I think that was
the kind of question that was tough for me. It was, how do you follow up a meta sci-fi romance,
like mixed-genre book, which I think are cool, but how do you—you gotta pick a lane.
(40:01):
So that's how I kind of ended up in thrillers.And for "The Pledge," which was a slasher,
that was the second book of a two-book deal. So I had written one book before "The Friend
Scheme." It was after—it was a thriller. And my publisher at the time was like, what do you think
about doing horror, because horror is really popular at the moment? And I was like, cool,
(40:23):
I'll do horror because I love slashers and I love horror. So that's what happened with that one.
[Jeff:] In the last year or 18 months or so, we've seen several YA authors,
queer YA authors, make the jump to doing adult romance and adult rom-coms. Is that something
you're thinking about in the future at all, or are you primarily gonna stay in the YA genre?
(40:48):
[Cale:] Yeah. I am very happy staying in YA. You're totally right. A lot of people are moving
into adult. I think queer YA… I feel like you would have some thoughts on this. I think it's
in this interesting space at the moment. I don't really know exactly what's going on with it,
but it feels like it's kind of shifting a little bit. So we'll see. And yeah, a lot of
(41:11):
authors are switching to adult or hopefully still continuing to do YA but also adult. I
don't know. Do you have any thoughts about that?[Jeff:] Interview reversal. As far as I know,
the authors I've talked to seem to want to continue to do both. There's certainly a bit
of a shift I've seen, at least in the US market, and I don't have a good sense around the world,
(41:34):
but I feel like where we saw a lot of YA going between 2020 and 2022, maybe into '23,
there was a lot of queer YA, a lot of amazing queer YA new authors coming in—authors of color,
authors all along the queer spectrum. I worry that with all the book bans that have happened in the
(42:00):
US and continue to happen, that I don't know if publishers are starting to reconsider what they
were doing in terms of diversifying YA. I hope not, because so much of it—you know, I've read
some amazing books the last couple of years.And I know there's always that lag between the
book getting accepted and the book coming out a year, 18 months, whatever later. So I don't
(42:25):
know that we're just hitting a little bit of a plateau here, or if it's more of a drop-off,
or I guess the next year will kind of show maybe where some of that's going.
Because on the flip side, you've got stuff like "Heartstopper" continues to be massively popular
as a book and as a TV show and things like that. So I don't know that my tea leaves are necessarily
(42:50):
good ones, but I do feel like there's been a slight drop from what we saw a couple years ago.
[Cale:] Absolutely. I feel like that's kind of—saying plateau, that's kind of where it sort
of... I don't know. I mean, so my first book came out in 2017, and there had been queer YA books,
(43:13):
but there wasn't that huge explosion that happened in about, I think, probably—was
it about 2020? Like ramping up from 2017?[Jeff:] I feel like 2021 is kind of—it hit an apex
there and then kind of stayed high for a little bit and it's kind of... Also, I mean, I don't
know about the broader YA genre either. Like, has contemporary YA in and of itself kind of backed
(43:37):
off in favor of other aspects? Because I don't read a lot of fantasy in that sci-fi side of YA.
[Cale:] Yeah, I think that's exactly it as well. I think maybe not just queer YA,
but contemporary—like pure contemporaries—I think seem to be in a quiet spot. But I think these
things come and go up and down all the time. I feel like contemporaries, especially, publishers—I
(44:01):
think they're really chasing that big, commercial kind of hook sort of thing, which can happen in
contemporary. It seems like contemporary is slowing down a little bit and romantasy kind
of taking. But you know, I feel like there's always gonna be space for a contemporary book,
but I'm definitely noticing contemporary seeming to be slowing down a little bit.
(44:22):
[Jeff:] Yeah. And romantasy... I haven't picked up any YA romantasy yet, but I did
read recently an adult, queer romantasy. And I was like, this is the best thing ever.
Page turner, page turner, page turner.[Cale:] What was it? What book was it?
[Jeff:] "Swordcrossed" from Freya Marske.[Cale:] Oh, yeah, yeah.
[Jeff:] Also an Australian[Cale:] Oh, nice. Cool. The
(44:46):
queer Australians are coming for publishing.[Jeff:] But I just thought that was just an
excellent book that I would totally read more of.So you hinted a little bit about this next thing
that you're working on. It's gonna be a romance. Is there anything
else you can kind of tease us about that?[Cale:] So that one—this is the first time this
has ever happened for me in my career. The book's pretty much done. I'm doing the third draft now,
(45:13):
but I'm not allowed to talk about it. And not because they're wanting to be coy or
anything. It's just that I've been told by marketing they want to do a cover reveal and
a premise reveal at the same time.So they want to just be like,
"Surprise! Here it is. Here's the cover, it's done. React," pretty much. So yeah,
(45:37):
I can't say anything about it. I don't want to be like that. I've just said that's what they want to
do with this one, which I think is cool because I feel like that'll make the premise reveal have
a bit of an impact, which will be cool.But there are some things going on behind
the scenes. Yeah, there's some Target stuff going on. So we'll see what happens with it,
(46:00):
but I'm really excited about this one. I think it's really different for me. It feels like
I'm kind of melding a lot of things that I'm interested in and have become more experienced,
that nailing down what I like as an author and who my brand is.
[Jeff:] That's very cool. Coming out in 2025?[Cale:] Yes. Yeah, it has a release date. I don't
(46:25):
know if I'm allowed to say that either.[Jeff:] So as we wrap up, we've gotta
get some recommendations for our listeners. What are you reading or
watching that you would recommend to everybody?[Cale:] Ooh, good question. I haven't started
reading it yet, but I bought "Prince of the Palisades" by Julian Winters a little while ago.
[Jeff:] So, so good.[Cale:] I've loved Julian Winters' work,
(46:47):
so I'm very excited to read that one. I was waiting until spooky season was over because
I tend to read horror books around September, October. So then I'm like, "Prince of the
Palisades" is waiting for me, which I'm very excited about. I was also reading "Clown in a
Cornfield Two," which is a very fun slasher book if anyone's interested in that. Quite good queer
(47:09):
representation in that one too, which is nice.[Jeff:] Excellent. "Prince of the Palisades,"
hundred percent thumbs up. Highly recommend. And I will maybe do that
other one in spooky season 2025.[Cale:] Yeah, wait until then.
[Jeff:] If I'm gonna read horror, I should put it in the right season.
[Cale:] Yeah. It's weird now because I haven't finished reading it yet, so I'm like,
(47:33):
spooky season's over, but I'm still reading the horror books. But I'll be done soon, and then I'll
be moving on to contemporaries and romances.[Jeff:] Nice. And what is the best way for
everybody to keep up with you online so they can find out more as "The Rules of
Royalty" comes out, but also be ready for the big reveal of the next book next year.
(47:54):
[Cale:] Yeah, so I'm on Instagram and Twitter. Just search my name. I'm CaleRDietrich on
Instagram. But yeah, just if you search 'Cale' on Twitter, I'm on. I have my website,
and I'm starting out TikTok, but very slowly. But yeah, so around there.
[Jeff:] Fantastic. We will link up to all that along with everything that we talked about in
(48:14):
our conversation, in our show notes. Cale, I'm so happy we got to talk about "The Rules
of Royalty." I wish you all the success with it.[Cale:] Awesome. No, thank you for talking to me.
[Will:] This episode's transcript has been brought to you by our community on
Patreon. If you'd like to read the conversation for yourself,
head on over to the show notes page for this episode at BigGayFictionPodcast.com.
(48:34):
We've got links to everything that we've talked about in this episode.
[Jeff:] And thanks so much to Cale for being here. From talking to him,
I know I need to read those thrillers because they sounded oh so good. And of course,
I'm looking forward to that big reveal that he mentioned of what's coming next.
And now let's find out what Chat has to say about the conversation. Hey,
ChatGPT, what did you learn from the interview with Cale?
ChatGPT (48:56):
I learned a great deal from the conversation with Cale, particularly about
the creative and intentional process that goes into crafting a story as layered and
entertaining as "The Rules of Royalty." It was fascinating to hear how Cale drew
inspiration from "The Princess Diaries" while making the story uniquely his own with queer
(49:17):
representation and dual points of view. The blending of classic royal tropes with fresh,
modern elements, like Jamie's American perspective and Erik's challenges as a
"spare prince," creates a dynamic story that balances humor, romance, and emotional growth.
Cale's insights into character development stood out as well. He
(49:37):
discussed how Jamie and Erik's arcs are deeply intertwined,
where their romance not only brings them closer but also inspires personal growth. This
organic weaving of relationship and character development is a masterclass in storytelling.
Additionally, Cale's journey as a writer resonated with me. His shift from being a pantser to a more
(49:59):
structured plotter after collaborating with Sophie Gonzales on "If This Gets Out" shows
how collaboration can fundamentally influence and enhance a writer's approach. It's also clear that
Cale values storytelling that's both entertaining and meaningful, which is evident in how he
incorporates Easter eggs for fans of "The Princess Diaries" while ensuring the story feels fresh.
(50:23):
Lastly, I appreciated Cale's perspective on the challenges and shifts in YA publishing,
particularly around queer narratives and contemporary genres. His optimism about
evolving trends, combined with his commitment to telling stories that uplift and entertain,
is inspiring for anyone passionate about creating meaningful, inclusive content.
(50:43):
[Jeff:] I really like how Chat focused on the characters that Cale created
with Jamie and Erik as well as Cale's personal writing journey.
[Will:] All right. I think that'll do it for now. Coming up next, on Monday,
December 30th, we're closing out 2024 with author Julian Winters.
[Jeff:] Yes, we are. I mentioned earlier that Julian's got his first adult rom-com
coming out with "I Think They Love You," and he's gonna be telling us all about it.
(51:06):
[Will:] On behalf of Jeff and myself, we want to wish everyone a merry Christmas and a very happy
Hanukkah, and hope that you'll join us again soon for more discussions about the kinds of stories
we all love—the big gay fiction kind. Until then, keep turning those pages and keep reading.
Big Gay Fiction Podcast is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. Find more shows
(51:28):
you’ll love at frolic.media/podcasts. Original theme music by Daryl Banner.
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