October 18, 2025 • 41 mins
I chat with Fox News' star token Democrat, Jessica Tarlov, about what life is like working inside the giant conservative media company as an open liberal. Plus, we analyze what the Democratic Party is getting wrong and how it went astray on culture war issues—answering the infamous question: "What is a woman?"
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ben Shapiro was right when he said the facts don't
care about your feelings. And I try to go a
bit against the current or the reputation of liberals is
being overly emotional, especially you know the stereotype that I
fit like I'm an over educated, well paid way wait.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
White liberal, well educated souls or whatever. Jessica, thanks so
much for coming on.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for
having me.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, you're calling in live from the Fox News studio,
so it's not a prison background.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
My office, which I guess can feel like a prison sometimes,
but as not, it's actually very I would flip it around.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I have a beautiful view of Manhattan.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm really curious because I've been following you for a
long time, many years now, and I remember you originally started,
or at least back when I first connected with you,
you were working at Bustle, I think is the head
of research, which is definitely more liberal leading media company.
Did you ever imagine you'd have an office in Fox News?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
No, because it took them a while to give me one.
Also on table, well, there aren't that many. You got
to fight for it, and I even I share it
with Harold Ford Junior. I always say I'm like half
a co host anyway, since Harold says the other half
of the week. It's definitely a twisty career path for sure.
And I started doing Fox even before I went to
(01:27):
Bussel because my old boss, Doug Shown, who was Bill
Clinton's polster and Bloomberg's polster, was a contributor here, so
he started encouraging me to do more media and to
learn how to speak concisely, which I feel like I
still haven't mastered, but he was like, this is going
to be really good for you to do. And then
I moved over to work at Bussel right after the
(01:49):
twenty sixteen election, and then got hired as a contributor
at Fox around the same time. So I've always had
that duality, I guess of a couple things. And it's
only the last year that I've gone like all in
on media, which is a strange place to be, don't.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
You feel that? Well, I think it's a bizarre profession.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
It is very strange profession. But I started originally in
media and then have branched out to social media and
podcasting and more like influencer stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So, oh, do we not I put everything like under
the umbrella, like the you are. The brand is like
what I think of as media, and that part of
it is strange because what if people don't like your brand,
which just means they don't like you.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Well, it helps when you're good looking, So I think
we're both good on that front.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Okay, I mean I have had Fox hair and makeup,
but yes.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Tell us more about what it's like being in Fox
News and being somebody who's a center left Democrat who
is often critical of Trump, who's often defending the Democrats,
and being very much a minority perspective in the company
or at least on a lot of the shows that
you're on. What is it like?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
It really depends on the day, which I think is
actually an exciting way to have a career or to
have a job, because I hear that all the time
from my friends and even my husband, like he works
in finance, and it's just like it's the same thing,
right like shift f nine or whatever the joke is about,
you know, your daily grind and no two days are
(03:24):
the same, certainly working here, and I've over the years,
you know, I got hired in twenty seventeen, so I'm
a little bit off from a decade working here as
a contributor and then as a host.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
But I know my co worker is the.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Same way that you would in a normal office, and
so it can be very tense, but there's also a
like a softness to it because you know each other's
lives and we definitely rely on that, like in breaks
and things like that.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
If it's gotten really tense and they're like.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Baby pictures or like dog pictures or something, and I
feel like, I mean not that I've not that I've
gone too far necessarily, but I always like to keep
my side of the streets super clean, right, and I
don't want anyone to feel like it was overly personal
(04:18):
from my side of things. So I just kind of
take it one day at a time. I pick my battles,
or I try to pick them really strategically. I know
when certain things, like to a liberal activist or a
lot of people who are following along on social media,
they'll get really critical, why didn't you do X Y
orcy think or why aren't you bringing up these things?
(04:38):
And I'm like, you know, you got to treat people
the same you would as like real life folks in
your life, and I've got to see them tomorrow. Like
you may want to go on whatever show and have
some massive fight or think like a jubilee situation where
you're surrounded is a really good time. But I'm much
more of a fan of having this long term relationship
(04:59):
with be people that think things differently than me and
getting to know them, getting to know their positions, and
then finding a way also to make them see not
necessarily that I'm right. I don't think I'm converting certainly
the people that I'm working with, but at least for
the folks at home, I know that they particularly love
about The Five that we seem like this dysfunctional family
(05:22):
that they recognize from their own lives.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
That's a good way of putting it, a dysfunctional family.
Because The Five, to me is one of the most
interesting shows on cable news. And I say that as
somebody who's not a fan of cable news. But there's
like three shows that I still like because they actually
have an exchange of ideas and they have different perspectives
in person in the same room. So I watch CNN newsnight,
I watch The Five. Yeah, that's kind of it. At
(05:48):
this point. Everyone else it's made clips here and there,
because I just don't like the yes and style of
television right where the host has a perspective, brings on
a guest, says that opinion, and then tossed it to
the to the guest to say, you're so right and
also this. I kind of think that's what is behind
(06:09):
a lot of the decreased interest in certain media brands,
where there's just no vibrancy. There's just no debate, there's
just no conversation because, at least in my own content,
the most viral moments or the most popular clips that
I have pop up, it's always an exchange. It's always yeah,
and people love that. But it's not easy to do.
(06:29):
I mean, what's like, maybe the most awkward or uncomfortable
moment that's happened for you in one of those debate situations.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
I'll go with, like, not awkward, but most intense. Was
definitely the day that the Dobbs decision came down. And
that was you know, a huge returning Wade over sorry, yes,
overturning Roev Wade, a huge victory for the conservative pro
life movement, you know, fifty years in the making, and
(07:01):
I was prepared for it, but also felt like, you know,
this ton of bricks had.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Fallen down on me.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
And I've always tried to make sure that my advocacy
speaks to the experience of a person who doesn't have
it as good as I do. Like I'm very well
aware of all of my twos liberal terms like my privileges,
and I remember I did my grad school, I went
(07:27):
abroad to do my PhD. And my grandmother, who started
in Europe but came to the United States when Hitler
came to power, like so many other Jews, said to me,
you know, like just always remember if you know, if
you need an abortion, like you can do that there
and I'll come over. And I was like, Nanny, I
don't know what you think I'm going to be doing here,
(07:48):
But she just was trying to make a point about
like how I would always be supportive and I would
always have access to the things that I need in life,
and a lot of that comes with means, and look
a liberal minded nanny on top of it. And so
when I talk about issues like that, like I did
on the day that Roe was overturned, I'm thinking about,
(08:10):
you know, a young woman who doesn't have a nanny
that's going to help her get across a state line necessarily,
or who doesn't have the money to be able to
do those to have that kind of procedure. And so
that felt like the heaviest day of days, and it
was really wah.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
A lot of the people around you are happy.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Oh like gleeful, like really think that it's such a
good thing.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
And on top of it, I just don't.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I don't want to make it seem like they feel
that way necessarily just because in all circumstances they think
it's unacceptable. They're just happy that it became a state's
rights issue. That was the argument for them, like this
is how it was supposed to be. It's not a
trend in the constitution. Blah blah blah blah blah. And
as you know, if you've seen clips of me or
watch the five, I'm interrupted on occasion. And it was
(08:59):
one of those times where I just got to speak
for like two two and a half minutes straight, and
it felt like this moment of real recognition from my
colleagues that they knew that this was something like deeply
deeply important to me and that I was having a
personal and political reaction to something, and so I wouldn't
necessarily call that awkward, but important and really meaningful, and
(09:22):
also made me feel so sure of the fact that
I was in the right place, no, that I was.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, that makes sense. And it's interesting too, because I'm
always surprised when I read about the diversity of Fox
News viewership because people think, oh, only Republicans watch Fox News.
That's not true. Across a lot of the country, Democrats, independents,
lots of people watch Fox News, and I'm sure if
you pulled them, they're not all hardcore pro lifers, and
(09:49):
many of them would actually agree with the perspective you articulated,
and to have that represented, I think is important. I
do wonder, though, how you deal with the aspect of
live TELEVI vision almost every day right because I do YouTube,
I do social media. I get to edit, I get
to if I have a blemish, I can it can
like photoshop, put a little filter on it, what have you.
(10:10):
But more importantly, I can like fact check stuff. I
can cut stuff out if I don't like what I said.
How do you handle having when I do live TV?
I get a little nervous, but I always prep but
I'm doing like one segment or one show one night.
You're doing it all the time. How do you make
sure that you're not saying something that's going to get
you fact checked or dunked on on X or And
(10:33):
is there a time where you've made a mistake live
and you feel bad about it? I, well, I get
dunked on certainly on X, which is now like Elon
Musk's playground, right, So them dunking on you, and them
dunking on you when you actually got something wrong.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yes, I have not been community noted. Let's just say
that there is. It's more of an alternative facts kind
of approach to well, this is wrong. But for a
lot of people that's enough, right, Like who live in
a conservative ecosystem and think that I am a spinner
in chief, right, or that I am up there every
(11:13):
day just spewing DNC sanctioned lies and that happens constantly.
And I've had to just kind of come to grips
with the fact that that's how that sub section of
our political discourse they thinks of me. And that was
a really tough adjustment for someone who's also so I
(11:34):
think well researched and like rooted in data I have
a PhD. I was the head of research with a big
digital media company. As you pointed out, like I'm not
around with my prep right, and so that has been
tough for me because I don't think that we're entitled
to our own facts. I think Ben Shapiro was right
(11:55):
when he said the facts don't care about your feelings.
And I try to also go a bit against the
current or the reputation of liberals is being overly emotional,
especially you know the stereotype that I fit, like I'm
an over educated, well paid why.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Wait, white liberal desfles or whatever.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, Like I wasn't an Elizabeth Warren person, but you
wouldn't have been shocked if I told you that I was.
So that's something that I kind of just have to
deal with and have I think plowed through pretty effectively.
And I'm actually writing a book right now and a
(12:35):
lot of that is about that that experience and how
you can also build a data based worldview and defend
it no matter where you are, because I hear from
a lot of people who are certainly not trying to
get on TV, but are trying to have discussions about
these very thorny issues like abortion, like the war in Gaza, healthcare.
(12:57):
You know, whatever it is with people that they care
about Trump, you know, whether it's liberals and a conservative
family or a conservative and a liberal family. I hear
from people that say, I want to survive Thanksgiving, and
I love the fact that they think of me as
someone who would have a good idea as to how
(13:17):
to do that. But we'll see how the book sells.
So that's one aspect of it. In terms of a mistake,
it's a social media one, and it's a recent example.
I was very hot on, you know, pointing out and
continue to be though I haven't job since, so that's good.
(13:39):
But that ICE has been detaining American citizens or people
who are here unlawfully technically but are like good members
of their community. And there was a video circulating of
someone that was picked up and it turned out that
he had actually like raped a girl and really he
was undocumented and definitely should.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Not have been here any longer.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
And Stephen Miller found it, yeah, and started posting about it,
and then other huge accounts like kat turd loves Me
and all and all the finest specimens on the right.
And I sat there thinking like, how did you let
(14:22):
this happen. And this is something that I talked to
Greg Gottfeld to him on the show with and was
also a very good friend of mine about a lot
like how much time you should take to make sure
that you know the totality of the story, which is
very difficult when you are doing live TV. This was
something that was tweeted anyway, but you know, we're going
live at five o'clock whether we know exactly what the
(14:43):
criminal history is of this person who was just picked
up or not. And so I decided to just take it.
Like I didn't take the tweet down right away. I
responded to Stephen Miller, I'm saying this was a mistake
and I regret it, and now I'm going to to
delete this to make sure more people don't see it,
I think. And then I got dumped on for doing
(15:06):
that too, and I was like, guys, what do you
want me to do? I could either run away from
this and say nothing, or I could own it. I
chose to own it and to somebody who I find
totally abhorrent, and that didn't feel great, but it felt
like the.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Response, what more can you do?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Right?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
And if these people hotually just.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Vote for Donald Trump, like that's often the answer where
they're like, when are you gonna start put on your
maga hat, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
As if these people always have their facts one hundred
percent straight too, Steven Miller and that crowd. I'm going
to hit the doubt button on that one. But no,
that's all you can do, especially the I don't know
if you feel this way. You probably feel it even
more than I do, because you're doing daily or near
daily like TV and all these stories and I just
(15:53):
pick a few things for a podcast every day. But
I feel like overwhelmed and barraged with news, sport stuff
is happening. Sometimes I miss Biden being president because it
just felt more calm. I'm not even saying which one
I like better, who I would rather have to me,
they're different kinds of problematic and flawed, but it was
just less hectic. They're doing so much and I feel
(16:15):
like I'm drowning try to keep up.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
I imagine you, well, that's the point, you know, that's
their intention. Yeah, is you know, if it's coming so
fast and so furious, then you can't really spend the
time that you should dwelling on X thing. That is
a gross overreach and it's all a big game of distraction.
And I find I even get criticized when I make
that argument. But I believe that in my soul that
(16:39):
there is this fire hose of action and also misinformation
coming out of this administration to make it impossible for
people that are trying to do a good job covering
this stuff and also put out meaningful content where you
can spend time with a story. Right, if you're going
to go and tape a podcast, you don't want to
(17:00):
give your listeners just a top line. Look, you want
to make sure that you've been able to get under
the hood right and look at the factors that have
led to this decision, or like, what's that left field
thing that you can bring in that'd be really interesting
to hear. And sometimes you're like, they're just not enough
hours in the day to figure this out.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, I completely agree. One thing I'm curious though, is
I was at a conservative political conference not too long
ago and they asked me a question. They said, who
do you admire in mainstream media? And I really, to
be honest, I struggled to answer because there's not many.
I was like, oh, kind of slim pickings and then
what I eventually said was Scott Jennings and Jessica Tarlo,
(17:43):
because I think that it takes guts to like go
into the lions Den and to be four v one
or three v one and to be standing up for
your beliefs in an environment where it's extremely unpopular and
contributing to civil political discourse. And the conservative audience booed
when I said your name, and so I was kind
of surprised by that because my in laws are Fox
(18:04):
News family, right, But they but when I told them
I was going on your podcast a little while ago,
when I mentioned that I was going to be interviewing you,
they were like, oh, that's great. We like her, even
though she's like a liberal. So I'm curious, like, what
is the reception you get from Fox News viewers. Is
it mostly positive or do some of them have like
a hate relationship with you.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Both.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
I mean, also, what people will do to your face
is very different than what they'll say about you online.
So I won't say I was the queen of the RNC,
but I was very well attended. I wasn't Jesse Waters,
you know, waving like a beauty queen, riding around in
(18:46):
his golf cart. But a lot of people wanted to
talk to me and to talk about the show because
whether they agree with me or not, or like me
every day or not, I'm part of something that matters
to them. I imagine that that's kind of how your
parents feel about it. I also hear that there's an
appreciation for the fact that I come prepared. Whether you
(19:10):
think that I'm right or not, I'm not showing up
and you know, making it up as I go. I
have been vowed for sure, that's happened, and I think
that's usually based on the denomination of red meat as
to where you are. So I'm not completely surprised by that,
(19:31):
but I think part of it is also just reflective
of this knee your cultural moment that we're in when
it comes to politics, where it has become even less
in fashion to work with the other side or to
think nice things about the other side. I think, to
the quite to the detriment of the country and you know,
(19:53):
how we can move forward. But everyone, you know, they
love conservatives love to hit AOC for everything right, and
that she's moronic and she doesn't accomplish anything, and who
would ever want to spend time with her, And the
answer is a ton of Republicans love AOC and love
hanging out with her and love working with her. Some
(20:16):
of the most conservative ones and the brave ones will
talk about that actually when they're interviewed and ask these
questions and like that's how it is supposed to be.
But I think this environment that we're in, and I
don't want to completely blame it on Donald Trump because
I think there are a lot of liberals who feel
like even what I do is a mistake and that
(20:36):
you shouldn't give kind of any credence to the other side,
right like.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Go out and no platform. Yeah. Yeah, the whole progressive
idea of that is kind of the antithesis of what
you believe in.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
One hundred percent the opposite. And I think to the
point that you raised about who's actually watching Fox News,
so democratic viewership of the five is twenty percent thirty
per and identify as independence fifty percent conservative, And that's
the whole range, right, Like those are people decked in
maga everything over to ones who have you know, a
(21:09):
picture of Mitt Romney above their bed. So I don't
know if those people actually exist, but you know what
I mean, Like, so when you're thinking about persuadable voters,
when you're thinking about just in sheer numbers like the
five gets what three and a half million viewers a day?
Right after inauguration we were up to around four on
a daily basis.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Wow, Like, why wouldn't you.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Do what I'm doing or try to do what I'm
doing versus preaching to the choir, you know, and getting
cable news.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
You're Jessica Universe, and.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
I know they can be untainted by that dirty those
dirty conversations and those dirty dollars.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Right, never win anything, ever, get anyone elected, achieve any policy,
but they'll have a podcast and they'll be true leftists.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
And uh, I want.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
You did all the good insults. I don't know what
else to say. It's very frustrating to me, but I
do think that.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
There's a shift.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Oh yeah, undergoing right now and certainly since the twenty
twenty four A.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Well, I like it because I'm and we'll get to this.
I'm not a Democrat, I'm not a liberal. But when
I came up in politics, I'm twenty seven now, so
even just five years ago, six seven.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Years old, I like how young you were like when
we met, Like when we used to do Kennedy, I
would have been.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Like twenty three.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Babe, Yeah, I'm I was about to be like, I
have a three year old, so that plus twenty but yes, fresh.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
But so that was back when like the progressive mindset
was no debate with fascists, like human rights aren't up
for debate. All this kind of what I view as nonsense,
kind of hop outs that just doesn't engage in the
complexity of a democratic society. But I and I still
see a lot of that if I'm being honest. However,
(22:58):
there's this rise of the democratic debate bro which, while
I while I don't agree with them on that much,
I do like to see the Midas touch guys Adam Mockler,
who I really don't agree with on very much, but
I like his style. I like that he goes in
to lions Den, he debates people, and that's his whole shtick,
even and I find them a little cringe. But like
(23:18):
the TikTok debate bros, the Dean Withers and all this,
I think they kind of they do a lot of
low hanging fruit. It's sort of similar to when the
Republicans go to college campus and debate the unprepared non
binary girl rather than like a professor. But they're doing debate,
they're doing argument, whereas not too long ago that would
(23:39):
have been considered like platforming evil people or something. So
I think that's a positive development. But you were doing
it before it was cool, so I'll give you some
credit for that. I do want to ask you a
little bit about the Democratic Party more broadly, because I
am somebody who has not voted for Trump in any
of the elections. I was a publican I recently deregistered.
(24:01):
I'm just fed up with a lot of it. I
consider myself an independent at this point, but my politics
are still center right right. I have to be honest,
I don't look at the Democratic Party and see an
alternative that's even within a football field of something I
could be able to sign on to or support. After
years of the Biden administration dysfunction, massive spending, border chaos,
(24:24):
and then like the insane, toxic DEI and gender stuff
that I just view as so anathema to my values
as somebody who's maybe classically liberal. Where do you see
the Democratic Party have having gone astray in terms of
appealing to normal Americans? Because I think when you're losing
(24:44):
to Trump as somebody uniquely polarizing and controversial and something's.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Gone wrong well and also historically unpopular, it's not just
the polarization, it's like the guy has an approval rating
that you really should be able to beat him. And
when you look at the content of I'm not saying
all of his policies because obviously Democrats got it wrong
in twenty sixteen and in twenty twenty four about how
(25:14):
some of his immigration ideas could appeal actually to a
much wider swath of Americans than you expected. But when
you look at like the way that he talks and
some of the things that he's saying, you should be
able to make lemonade out of that, right, Like you
shouldn't be losing to It was my perspective, and we
could go through, you know, what state strategies were employed
(25:36):
that shouldn't have been. But I think ultimately it really
does come down to what we were joking around about
a few minutes ago, and that is the kind of
the stereotypical liberal right now, who's someone that I guess
looks like me. I don't think I act like it necessarily,
but it is just so dismissive of people with a
(25:58):
different set of experienceances. And I think it ties in
nicely to the importance of having debates and showing up
in uncomfortable places, because if you lead with humanity, it
takes you very far, and you get such a better
understanding of where folks are coming from from spending time
(26:19):
with people who didn't grow up like you did, you know,
like I didn't grow up with anyone who owned a gun,
and I did not grow up, you know, with anyone
who was objected to abortion on religious grounds. Let's say,
like those kinds of conversations you only have with people
who are genuinely different than you are. So I think
that we leaned in far too much to the caricature
(26:43):
of who we are and or how it was being portrayed,
and then it became a self fulfilling prophecy essentially, and
no one was strong enough to push back hard enough
against it. There were certainly some voices, including some prominent
ones like Bill Clinton, who in twenty sixteen knew what
needed to be done. In twenty twenty four knew what
(27:05):
needed to be done, and we just couldn't pull it off.
But the ideological capture by the consultant class, and I
think especially the activist class even more so than the consultants,
Like I think there are a lot of very good
consultants that we're saying, like.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
You, you can't say these things.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Right, like this is on the police.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Actually yeah that yes, certainly, don't say defund the police.
But I even think about on like trans women and
women's sports and how that's an eighty twenty issue for people.
It's something that they think is just logical, right, like
why should this even be a discussion, And to look
at what a lynchpin that became of the Trump campaign
(27:48):
and how easily it was to paint an entire party
of quote unquote intellectuals, like people with a lot of
degrees with.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
This brush of But they don't. They won't even tell
you what a woman is, you know what.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I'll get that even on the five, like Greg will
be around with me or Jesse, But what is a woman?
Speaker 3 (28:06):
I get to say, answer.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
What's your answer to that? What is a woman?
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Like someone who's born born a woman, Like I'm a woman,
I always say, like I've pumped two babies out of
my body. I know exactly what a woman is. I
know what the mechanics look like. I you know, it
doesn't mean that I deny that transgender people exist.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
And you know, but then you have to acknowledge a
distinction between a trans woman who's technically a biological male
and a woman.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yeah, I think that trans women are a subset of women,
but they are their own category.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
See that's I mean, we don't have to parse that.
I would. I would say that they're actually a subset
of males. But I have no issue with them living
their lives however they want, I think. But the problem
is that we there's people have a problem. The issue
of like trans athletes and sports right doesn't touch many
people's lives. Democrats have absolutely have a point when they
(29:03):
say there aren't very many transit more in the high school.
But it's still a very small number of people. But
what I hear from people is that it is a
sanity test. A lot of my audience are people who
are somewhere in the middle, who are a lot of
them are former Democrats, former liberals, but they feel disaffected,
they feel disconnected. And when you have the democratic kind
(29:27):
of establishment, whether it's like the Equality Act for example,
define sex to mean whatever you self identify as with
no requirements, no acknowledgment of biology. You've got blue states
like California where they put biological male people in women's prisons,
and then some very bad things can happen. Now I
(29:47):
see the reverse where I think I see genuine cruelty
and animus towards trans people on the Republican side right now,
all over social media. And I feel bad because I
have more of a middle ground position on the but
I feel like this is an issue that Democrats got
totally wrong or went way too far to one extreme
from But they really I mean the activist class that
(30:10):
you mentioned, the Democratic side is ardently wetted to these
extreme positions. And I don't really see Democrats willing to
go against the human rights campaign, the ACLU. How do
they thread that needle?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Well, I think you're going to see a lot more
of it in twenty twenty six. I think that there
will be a movement, and you've seen a trickling in already,
with like Gavin Newsom and Seth Moulten kind of talking
about these issues more like I have daughters, right, That's
what Sas said. I don't think that they should be
they play competitive sports. I don't think that these things
(30:46):
should be mixed. Abigail Spanberger is running for governor in Virginia.
She's moved to saying like this is between this is
for individual schools to decide and parents to kind of
make it more like a personal choice states rights issue
kind of explanation for it, which I think would appeal
more to a libertarian slash right leaning perspective on it.
(31:10):
But I'm not going to sit here and argue that
we have a perfect answer. I just know that Democrats
are fed up with losing and would have being painted
with this brush that we don't know what biology means
because that's obviously not the case. And for as for
groups like the Human Rights Campaign or the ACLU, I
(31:33):
don't think that they're going to have the kind of
impact on elections going forward that they would like to
if they're going to have these strict lines about it,
and you even see some relaxation of it, and you know,
prominent figures in those movements and how they're representing themselves
on social media. I'm not saying that they're changing exactly
what they're saying. They're just attacking less like unless someone
(31:56):
is overtly anti trans I would say, I don't see
as much of the fervor about it anymore, and I
you know, nothing is perfect, but I do know that
if you don't even have a seat at the table,
you have absolutely no chance at having any impact. And
(32:17):
I think there's a very real fear amongst some of
these activists groups.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
I think this is true as well.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
And on immigration, where you know, people would push the
Abiden administration to you know, say things like the border
is closed, or you know this doesn't matter, or you know,
we're all just human beings and we you know, we
can take up to ten more million people. Whatever it
is that they know that there is no needle to
(32:46):
it's read in that direction anymore. So you have to
focus on the things that are more tangible. Maybe that's
a pie in the sky way of looking at it.
And I'm a centrist deem so I get to say
those things. I don't know what that's like for someone
in Progressive Caucus for inscience.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
But it's interesting how many of the things that came
back to haunt Kamala Harrison her twenty twenty four campaign
actually came from the ACL UN.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Tell you yeah, no, I definitely know that yeah, but
it's also like, I mean, Kamala Harris is her whole,
you know, as a whole, separate discussion. But you know,
this is one of those moments where the facts stop
mattering as much to people because Kamala Harris tik tik
(33:30):
tik tik tik said yes to all of those things
on the acl YOU survey. And the thing in particular
that we're talking about is gender affirming care for undocumented
people that are in our prison system, but which it's
like so long to say, you think, like a it's
made up or be how could this possibly matter because
it probably applies to one person. But the one person
(33:51):
that it did apply to actually was in prison during
the Trump administration and received the gender affirming care that
they wanted. And I brought that up on the five.
I got a bunch of eye rolls. I don't even
remember Greg's line of attack necessarily from that day. But
that's the reality on the ground. But because Donald Trump
has a reputation as being someone who either would never
(34:14):
have authorized that or be has no idea what's going on,
which is usually what happens like.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
It's probably the latter. I think he probably had no
idea that was happening, of course.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
And he didn't even know a few weeks ago that
he had cut like two hundred million dollars from the
New York law enforcement budget until Kathy Hochel got him
on the phone and then he said, oh, restored, and
then you know, put out a true social post saying
everybody should thank me. So it's a it's a frustrating
place to be, but I do think that hitting proverbial
rock bottom has caused a lot of thoughtful reflection and
(34:50):
also people to think more strategically about how they can
ensure that they are protecting the groups that they want
to protect while still winning an election so that that
can continue, because if you're not in office, you can't
stop the Republican Party from putting forward some of these
trans bills that we're seeing all over the country and
(35:12):
like don't say gay laws and things like that, and
you know, five six year olds that are being preyed
upon versus you know, if you have a bit of power,
that can go a long way.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, I think that's important. Right, you can be as
pure as you want, but if you have no power,
you're not going to be able to accomplish anything the
and I know we only have a few minutes left.
But the one other thing I want to ask you
about is I think one thing that's totally alienated me
from the Democrats is what I would call like the
equity push versus equality. So when you have for example,
(35:41):
I'll give you the perfect example is when the Biden
administration said for my Supreme Court nominee, I'm going to
only pick a black woman. What I'm I think that
takes America in just such a wrong direction. I think
that isolates white men, whereas if he'd simply said I'm
going to pick the best person for the job and
(36:02):
then picked Katanji Brown Jackson, who has the qualifications to
stand on her own two feet. But it really did
seem to me, especially in the twenty twenty to maybe
twenty twenty three era, whether it's LATINX, whether it's the
equity and the openly like saying this race first, that race,
that they went so far on some of this identity stuff.
(36:24):
Do you see them moving away from that in the
near future.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
I think it's linked to what I was just talking about,
that you were seeing people recalibrate and think more seriously
about the impact of what they viewed as just kind
of casual all of branches, right, or a campaigning slogan
or something to just kind of throw out there that
(36:52):
they didn't think would actually ruffle more feathers. And the
way that the Supreme Court has operated, and you know,
getting rid of affirmative action, for instance, and then seeing
that there were a lot more people who felt okay
about that.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
Than we had expected.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
And there were also school systems, like even in California
that were race blind to play, you know, a super
liberal state, and that everyone felt pretty much okay about that.
That the reality on the ground is very different than
the reality in our ivory towers or in our liberal bubbles.
And so yeah, I don't think that you'll see another
(37:28):
Democratic nominee make a pledge like that. I do think
that twenty twenty was a very different time. I think
George Floyd's murder and what happened during you know, the
Black Lives Matter protests were different. I think that Jim
Clyburn's impact on the race is also very different and
would not be replicated again in twenty twenty eight. Everyone's
going to go to the fish fry and wear the
(37:49):
T shirt, the clyburn T shirt. But I don't think
that he'll have such a specific impact in terms of
like picking who the running me is going to be,
which is you know, from all the reporting, essentially what
happened that it was between Val Demings and Kamala Harris,
and that Cliburne was a Kamala Harris person. And you know,
(38:11):
I don't know what things have been different if President
Biden's VP was the first black female police chief from Orlando.
Maybe she rides motorcycles, she's pretty badass. You know, it's
a very different profile, right. You know, there were lefties
that were mad and super disappointed that he had picked
a cop right in Kamala Harris. But like she was,
(38:34):
Val Diamis is a real cop right extree cop right
and that might have appealed to a totally different subsection
of voters that would have, you know, felt differently in
twenty twenty four about the thing.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Oh, I we have to wrap, but give us a name.
Who should the Democratic nominee be in twenty twenty eight?
In your opinion, who should it be?
Speaker 1 (38:56):
I'm scared to pick because I'm scared to say this,
because I think it is going to be a tough road,
even though Kamala was destroyed over her concerns about Josh Shapiro.
But I think Josh Shapiro would be a pretty formidable candidate.
He has over sixty percent approval rating. Republicans love him.
He's from what do we call it, the get Shit
(39:18):
Done Caucus rebuilding I ninety five and twenty minutes, And
as a liberal Jew, I would be very proud to
have somebody who's so open about their faith, but who
also has clear eyed about the situation in the Middle
East leading our party. So I'm going to go Josh Shapiro,
(39:40):
but it could be like AOC and Gavin Newsom.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
I think it's gonna be wild and a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I'm excited for another Do you think it's going to
be would? I think AOC has got the money. I
think she's got the magic talent. I think she'll either
be the VP or the nominee.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility,
and I used to really not think that was She's grown.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
When she first entered she seemed like a dummy to me.
But she has learned a lot more, and she has
the charisma and the talent and the beauty, and that
is what matters more than anything.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Now, isn't it just She also, I don't know if
you were at the DNZ, but when she gave her speech,
it was a traditional economic popular speech, you know, talked
about being a waitress, all those things, and there was
no trace of leftyism on it. And I was like,
that girl heard Nancy Pelosi loud and clear when she
(40:34):
came to her and said, if you want to be
on a committee that you actually like, you better get
in line. And AOC got in line. And now she's
at the head of the line.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
So all right, well, Dethica, you have to go kick
out TV. Okay, so thank you so much. This has
been We will talk again real soon.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
I'd love that, right,
Ben Shapiro was right when he said the facts don't
care about your feelings. And I try to go a
bit against the current or the reputation of liberals is
being overly emotional, especially you know the stereotype that I
fit like I'm an over educated, well paid way wait.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
White liberal, well educated souls or whatever. Jessica, thanks so
much for coming on.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for
having me.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, you're calling in live from the Fox News studio,
so it's not a prison background.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
My office, which I guess can feel like a prison sometimes,
but as not, it's actually very I would flip it around.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I have a beautiful view of Manhattan.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm really curious because I've been following you for a
long time, many years now, and I remember you originally started,
or at least back when I first connected with you,
you were working at Bustle, I think is the head
of research, which is definitely more liberal leading media company.
Did you ever imagine you'd have an office in Fox News?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
No, because it took them a while to give me one.
Also on table, well, there aren't that many. You got
to fight for it, and I even I share it
with Harold Ford Junior. I always say I'm like half
a co host anyway, since Harold says the other half
of the week. It's definitely a twisty career path for sure.
And I started doing Fox even before I went to
(01:27):
Bussel because my old boss, Doug Shown, who was Bill
Clinton's polster and Bloomberg's polster, was a contributor here, so
he started encouraging me to do more media and to
learn how to speak concisely, which I feel like I
still haven't mastered, but he was like, this is going
to be really good for you to do. And then
I moved over to work at Bussel right after the
(01:49):
twenty sixteen election, and then got hired as a contributor
at Fox around the same time. So I've always had
that duality, I guess of a couple things. And it's
only the last year that I've gone like all in
on media, which is a strange place to be, don't.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
You feel that? Well, I think it's a bizarre profession.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
It is very strange profession. But I started originally in
media and then have branched out to social media and
podcasting and more like influencer stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So, oh, do we not I put everything like under
the umbrella, like the you are. The brand is like
what I think of as media, and that part of
it is strange because what if people don't like your brand,
which just means they don't like you.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Well, it helps when you're good looking, So I think
we're both good on that front.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Okay, I mean I have had Fox hair and makeup,
but yes.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Tell us more about what it's like being in Fox
News and being somebody who's a center left Democrat who
is often critical of Trump, who's often defending the Democrats,
and being very much a minority perspective in the company
or at least on a lot of the shows that
you're on. What is it like?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
It really depends on the day, which I think is
actually an exciting way to have a career or to
have a job, because I hear that all the time
from my friends and even my husband, like he works
in finance, and it's just like it's the same thing,
right like shift f nine or whatever the joke is about,
you know, your daily grind and no two days are
(03:24):
the same, certainly working here, and I've over the years,
you know, I got hired in twenty seventeen, so I'm
a little bit off from a decade working here as
a contributor and then as a host.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
But I know my co worker is the.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Same way that you would in a normal office, and
so it can be very tense, but there's also a
like a softness to it because you know each other's
lives and we definitely rely on that, like in breaks
and things like that.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
If it's gotten really tense and they're like.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Baby pictures or like dog pictures or something, and I
feel like, I mean not that I've not that I've
gone too far necessarily, but I always like to keep
my side of the streets super clean, right, and I
don't want anyone to feel like it was overly personal
(04:18):
from my side of things. So I just kind of
take it one day at a time. I pick my battles,
or I try to pick them really strategically. I know
when certain things, like to a liberal activist or a
lot of people who are following along on social media,
they'll get really critical, why didn't you do X Y
orcy think or why aren't you bringing up these things?
(04:38):
And I'm like, you know, you got to treat people
the same you would as like real life folks in
your life, and I've got to see them tomorrow. Like
you may want to go on whatever show and have
some massive fight or think like a jubilee situation where
you're surrounded is a really good time. But I'm much
more of a fan of having this long term relationship
(04:59):
with be people that think things differently than me and
getting to know them, getting to know their positions, and
then finding a way also to make them see not
necessarily that I'm right. I don't think I'm converting certainly
the people that I'm working with, but at least for
the folks at home, I know that they particularly love
about The Five that we seem like this dysfunctional family
(05:22):
that they recognize from their own lives.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
That's a good way of putting it, a dysfunctional family.
Because The Five, to me is one of the most
interesting shows on cable news. And I say that as
somebody who's not a fan of cable news. But there's
like three shows that I still like because they actually
have an exchange of ideas and they have different perspectives
in person in the same room. So I watch CNN newsnight,
I watch The Five. Yeah, that's kind of it. At
(05:48):
this point. Everyone else it's made clips here and there,
because I just don't like the yes and style of
television right where the host has a perspective, brings on
a guest, says that opinion, and then tossed it to
the to the guest to say, you're so right and
also this. I kind of think that's what is behind
(06:09):
a lot of the decreased interest in certain media brands,
where there's just no vibrancy. There's just no debate, there's
just no conversation because, at least in my own content,
the most viral moments or the most popular clips that
I have pop up, it's always an exchange. It's always yeah,
and people love that. But it's not easy to do.
(06:29):
I mean, what's like, maybe the most awkward or uncomfortable
moment that's happened for you in one of those debate situations.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
I'll go with, like, not awkward, but most intense. Was
definitely the day that the Dobbs decision came down. And
that was you know, a huge returning Wade over sorry, yes,
overturning Roev Wade, a huge victory for the conservative pro
life movement, you know, fifty years in the making, and
(07:01):
I was prepared for it, but also felt like, you know,
this ton of bricks had.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Fallen down on me.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
And I've always tried to make sure that my advocacy
speaks to the experience of a person who doesn't have
it as good as I do. Like I'm very well
aware of all of my twos liberal terms like my privileges,
and I remember I did my grad school, I went
(07:27):
abroad to do my PhD. And my grandmother, who started
in Europe but came to the United States when Hitler
came to power, like so many other Jews, said to me,
you know, like just always remember if you know, if
you need an abortion, like you can do that there
and I'll come over. And I was like, Nanny, I
don't know what you think I'm going to be doing here,
(07:48):
But she just was trying to make a point about
like how I would always be supportive and I would
always have access to the things that I need in life,
and a lot of that comes with means, and look
a liberal minded nanny on top of it. And so
when I talk about issues like that, like I did
on the day that Roe was overturned, I'm thinking about,
(08:10):
you know, a young woman who doesn't have a nanny
that's going to help her get across a state line necessarily,
or who doesn't have the money to be able to
do those to have that kind of procedure. And so
that felt like the heaviest day of days, and it
was really wah.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
A lot of the people around you are happy.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Oh like gleeful, like really think that it's such a
good thing.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
And on top of it, I just don't.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I don't want to make it seem like they feel
that way necessarily just because in all circumstances they think
it's unacceptable. They're just happy that it became a state's
rights issue. That was the argument for them, like this
is how it was supposed to be. It's not a
trend in the constitution. Blah blah blah blah blah. And
as you know, if you've seen clips of me or
watch the five, I'm interrupted on occasion. And it was
(08:59):
one of those times where I just got to speak
for like two two and a half minutes straight, and
it felt like this moment of real recognition from my
colleagues that they knew that this was something like deeply
deeply important to me and that I was having a
personal and political reaction to something, and so I wouldn't
necessarily call that awkward, but important and really meaningful, and
(09:22):
also made me feel so sure of the fact that
I was in the right place, no, that I was.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, that makes sense. And it's interesting too, because I'm
always surprised when I read about the diversity of Fox
News viewership because people think, oh, only Republicans watch Fox News.
That's not true. Across a lot of the country, Democrats, independents,
lots of people watch Fox News, and I'm sure if
you pulled them, they're not all hardcore pro lifers, and
(09:49):
many of them would actually agree with the perspective you articulated,
and to have that represented, I think is important. I
do wonder, though, how you deal with the aspect of
live TELEVI vision almost every day right because I do YouTube,
I do social media. I get to edit, I get
to if I have a blemish, I can it can
like photoshop, put a little filter on it, what have you.
(10:10):
But more importantly, I can like fact check stuff. I
can cut stuff out if I don't like what I said.
How do you handle having when I do live TV?
I get a little nervous, but I always prep but
I'm doing like one segment or one show one night.
You're doing it all the time. How do you make
sure that you're not saying something that's going to get
you fact checked or dunked on on X or And
(10:33):
is there a time where you've made a mistake live
and you feel bad about it? I, well, I get
dunked on certainly on X, which is now like Elon
Musk's playground, right, So them dunking on you, and them
dunking on you when you actually got something wrong.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yes, I have not been community noted. Let's just say
that there is. It's more of an alternative facts kind
of approach to well, this is wrong. But for a
lot of people that's enough, right, Like who live in
a conservative ecosystem and think that I am a spinner
in chief, right, or that I am up there every
(11:13):
day just spewing DNC sanctioned lies and that happens constantly.
And I've had to just kind of come to grips
with the fact that that's how that sub section of
our political discourse they thinks of me. And that was
a really tough adjustment for someone who's also so I
(11:34):
think well researched and like rooted in data I have
a PhD. I was the head of research with a big
digital media company. As you pointed out, like I'm not
around with my prep right, and so that has been
tough for me because I don't think that we're entitled
to our own facts. I think Ben Shapiro was right
(11:55):
when he said the facts don't care about your feelings.
And I try to also go a bit against the
current or the reputation of liberals is being overly emotional,
especially you know the stereotype that I fit, like I'm
an over educated, well paid why.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Wait, white liberal desfles or whatever.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, Like I wasn't an Elizabeth Warren person, but you
wouldn't have been shocked if I told you that I was.
So that's something that I kind of just have to
deal with and have I think plowed through pretty effectively.
And I'm actually writing a book right now and a
(12:35):
lot of that is about that that experience and how
you can also build a data based worldview and defend
it no matter where you are, because I hear from
a lot of people who are certainly not trying to
get on TV, but are trying to have discussions about
these very thorny issues like abortion, like the war in Gaza, healthcare.
(12:57):
You know, whatever it is with people that they care
about Trump, you know, whether it's liberals and a conservative
family or a conservative and a liberal family. I hear
from people that say, I want to survive Thanksgiving, and
I love the fact that they think of me as
someone who would have a good idea as to how
(13:17):
to do that. But we'll see how the book sells.
So that's one aspect of it. In terms of a mistake,
it's a social media one, and it's a recent example.
I was very hot on, you know, pointing out and
continue to be though I haven't job since, so that's good.
(13:39):
But that ICE has been detaining American citizens or people
who are here unlawfully technically but are like good members
of their community. And there was a video circulating of
someone that was picked up and it turned out that
he had actually like raped a girl and really he
was undocumented and definitely should.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Not have been here any longer.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
And Stephen Miller found it, yeah, and started posting about it,
and then other huge accounts like kat turd loves Me
and all and all the finest specimens on the right.
And I sat there thinking like, how did you let
(14:22):
this happen. And this is something that I talked to
Greg Gottfeld to him on the show with and was
also a very good friend of mine about a lot
like how much time you should take to make sure
that you know the totality of the story, which is
very difficult when you are doing live TV. This was
something that was tweeted anyway, but you know, we're going
live at five o'clock whether we know exactly what the
(14:43):
criminal history is of this person who was just picked
up or not. And so I decided to just take it.
Like I didn't take the tweet down right away. I
responded to Stephen Miller, I'm saying this was a mistake
and I regret it, and now I'm going to to
delete this to make sure more people don't see it,
I think. And then I got dumped on for doing
(15:06):
that too, and I was like, guys, what do you
want me to do? I could either run away from
this and say nothing, or I could own it. I
chose to own it and to somebody who I find
totally abhorrent, and that didn't feel great, but it felt
like the.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Response, what more can you do?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Right?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
And if these people hotually just.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Vote for Donald Trump, like that's often the answer where
they're like, when are you gonna start put on your
maga hat, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
As if these people always have their facts one hundred
percent straight too, Steven Miller and that crowd. I'm going
to hit the doubt button on that one. But no,
that's all you can do, especially the I don't know
if you feel this way. You probably feel it even
more than I do, because you're doing daily or near
daily like TV and all these stories and I just
(15:53):
pick a few things for a podcast every day. But
I feel like overwhelmed and barraged with news, sport stuff
is happening. Sometimes I miss Biden being president because it
just felt more calm. I'm not even saying which one
I like better, who I would rather have to me,
they're different kinds of problematic and flawed, but it was
just less hectic. They're doing so much and I feel
(16:15):
like I'm drowning try to keep up.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
I imagine you, well, that's the point, you know, that's
their intention. Yeah, is you know, if it's coming so
fast and so furious, then you can't really spend the
time that you should dwelling on X thing. That is
a gross overreach and it's all a big game of distraction.
And I find I even get criticized when I make
that argument. But I believe that in my soul that
(16:39):
there is this fire hose of action and also misinformation
coming out of this administration to make it impossible for
people that are trying to do a good job covering
this stuff and also put out meaningful content where you
can spend time with a story. Right, if you're going
to go and tape a podcast, you don't want to
(17:00):
give your listeners just a top line. Look, you want
to make sure that you've been able to get under
the hood right and look at the factors that have
led to this decision, or like, what's that left field
thing that you can bring in that'd be really interesting
to hear. And sometimes you're like, they're just not enough
hours in the day to figure this out.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, I completely agree. One thing I'm curious though, is
I was at a conservative political conference not too long
ago and they asked me a question. They said, who
do you admire in mainstream media? And I really, to
be honest, I struggled to answer because there's not many.
I was like, oh, kind of slim pickings and then
what I eventually said was Scott Jennings and Jessica Tarlo,
(17:43):
because I think that it takes guts to like go
into the lions Den and to be four v one
or three v one and to be standing up for
your beliefs in an environment where it's extremely unpopular and
contributing to civil political discourse. And the conservative audience booed
when I said your name, and so I was kind
of surprised by that because my in laws are Fox
(18:04):
News family, right, But they but when I told them
I was going on your podcast a little while ago,
when I mentioned that I was going to be interviewing you,
they were like, oh, that's great. We like her, even
though she's like a liberal. So I'm curious, like, what
is the reception you get from Fox News viewers. Is
it mostly positive or do some of them have like
a hate relationship with you.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Both.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
I mean, also, what people will do to your face
is very different than what they'll say about you online.
So I won't say I was the queen of the RNC,
but I was very well attended. I wasn't Jesse Waters,
you know, waving like a beauty queen, riding around in
(18:46):
his golf cart. But a lot of people wanted to
talk to me and to talk about the show because
whether they agree with me or not, or like me
every day or not, I'm part of something that matters
to them. I imagine that that's kind of how your
parents feel about it. I also hear that there's an
appreciation for the fact that I come prepared. Whether you
(19:10):
think that I'm right or not, I'm not showing up
and you know, making it up as I go. I
have been vowed for sure, that's happened, and I think
that's usually based on the denomination of red meat as
to where you are. So I'm not completely surprised by that,
(19:31):
but I think part of it is also just reflective
of this knee your cultural moment that we're in when
it comes to politics, where it has become even less
in fashion to work with the other side or to
think nice things about the other side. I think, to
the quite to the detriment of the country and you know,
(19:53):
how we can move forward. But everyone, you know, they
love conservatives love to hit AOC for everything right, and
that she's moronic and she doesn't accomplish anything, and who
would ever want to spend time with her, And the
answer is a ton of Republicans love AOC and love
hanging out with her and love working with her. Some
(20:16):
of the most conservative ones and the brave ones will
talk about that actually when they're interviewed and ask these
questions and like that's how it is supposed to be.
But I think this environment that we're in, and I
don't want to completely blame it on Donald Trump because
I think there are a lot of liberals who feel
like even what I do is a mistake and that
(20:36):
you shouldn't give kind of any credence to the other side,
right like.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Go out and no platform. Yeah. Yeah, the whole progressive
idea of that is kind of the antithesis of what
you believe in.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
One hundred percent the opposite. And I think to the
point that you raised about who's actually watching Fox News,
so democratic viewership of the five is twenty percent thirty
per and identify as independence fifty percent conservative, And that's
the whole range, right, Like those are people decked in
maga everything over to ones who have you know, a
(21:09):
picture of Mitt Romney above their bed. So I don't
know if those people actually exist, but you know what
I mean, Like, so when you're thinking about persuadable voters,
when you're thinking about just in sheer numbers like the
five gets what three and a half million viewers a day?
Right after inauguration we were up to around four on
a daily basis.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Wow, Like, why wouldn't you.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Do what I'm doing or try to do what I'm
doing versus preaching to the choir, you know, and getting
cable news.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
You're Jessica Universe, and.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
I know they can be untainted by that dirty those
dirty conversations and those dirty dollars.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Right, never win anything, ever, get anyone elected, achieve any policy,
but they'll have a podcast and they'll be true leftists.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
And uh, I want.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
You did all the good insults. I don't know what
else to say. It's very frustrating to me, but I
do think that.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
There's a shift.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Oh yeah, undergoing right now and certainly since the twenty
twenty four A.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Well, I like it because I'm and we'll get to this.
I'm not a Democrat, I'm not a liberal. But when
I came up in politics, I'm twenty seven now, so
even just five years ago, six seven.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Years old, I like how young you were like when
we met, Like when we used to do Kennedy, I
would have been.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Like twenty three.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Babe, Yeah, I'm I was about to be like, I
have a three year old, so that plus twenty but yes, fresh.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
But so that was back when like the progressive mindset
was no debate with fascists, like human rights aren't up
for debate. All this kind of what I view as nonsense,
kind of hop outs that just doesn't engage in the
complexity of a democratic society. But I and I still
see a lot of that if I'm being honest. However,
(22:58):
there's this rise of the democratic debate bro which, while
I while I don't agree with them on that much,
I do like to see the Midas touch guys Adam Mockler,
who I really don't agree with on very much, but
I like his style. I like that he goes in
to lions Den, he debates people, and that's his whole shtick,
even and I find them a little cringe. But like
(23:18):
the TikTok debate bros, the Dean Withers and all this,
I think they kind of they do a lot of
low hanging fruit. It's sort of similar to when the
Republicans go to college campus and debate the unprepared non
binary girl rather than like a professor. But they're doing debate,
they're doing argument, whereas not too long ago that would
(23:39):
have been considered like platforming evil people or something. So
I think that's a positive development. But you were doing
it before it was cool, so I'll give you some
credit for that. I do want to ask you a
little bit about the Democratic Party more broadly, because I
am somebody who has not voted for Trump in any
of the elections. I was a publican I recently deregistered.
(24:01):
I'm just fed up with a lot of it. I
consider myself an independent at this point, but my politics
are still center right right. I have to be honest,
I don't look at the Democratic Party and see an
alternative that's even within a football field of something I
could be able to sign on to or support. After
years of the Biden administration dysfunction, massive spending, border chaos,
(24:24):
and then like the insane, toxic DEI and gender stuff
that I just view as so anathema to my values
as somebody who's maybe classically liberal. Where do you see
the Democratic Party have having gone astray in terms of
appealing to normal Americans? Because I think when you're losing
(24:44):
to Trump as somebody uniquely polarizing and controversial and something's.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Gone wrong well and also historically unpopular, it's not just
the polarization, it's like the guy has an approval rating
that you really should be able to beat him. And
when you look at the content of I'm not saying
all of his policies because obviously Democrats got it wrong
in twenty sixteen and in twenty twenty four about how
(25:14):
some of his immigration ideas could appeal actually to a
much wider swath of Americans than you expected. But when
you look at like the way that he talks and
some of the things that he's saying, you should be
able to make lemonade out of that, right, Like you
shouldn't be losing to It was my perspective, and we
could go through, you know, what state strategies were employed
(25:36):
that shouldn't have been. But I think ultimately it really
does come down to what we were joking around about
a few minutes ago, and that is the kind of
the stereotypical liberal right now, who's someone that I guess
looks like me. I don't think I act like it necessarily,
but it is just so dismissive of people with a
(25:58):
different set of experienceances. And I think it ties in
nicely to the importance of having debates and showing up
in uncomfortable places, because if you lead with humanity, it
takes you very far, and you get such a better
understanding of where folks are coming from from spending time
(26:19):
with people who didn't grow up like you did, you know,
like I didn't grow up with anyone who owned a gun,
and I did not grow up, you know, with anyone
who was objected to abortion on religious grounds. Let's say,
like those kinds of conversations you only have with people
who are genuinely different than you are. So I think
that we leaned in far too much to the caricature
(26:43):
of who we are and or how it was being portrayed,
and then it became a self fulfilling prophecy essentially, and
no one was strong enough to push back hard enough
against it. There were certainly some voices, including some prominent
ones like Bill Clinton, who in twenty sixteen knew what
needed to be done. In twenty twenty four knew what
(27:05):
needed to be done, and we just couldn't pull it off.
But the ideological capture by the consultant class, and I
think especially the activist class even more so than the consultants,
Like I think there are a lot of very good
consultants that we're saying, like.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
You, you can't say these things.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Right, like this is on the police.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Actually yeah that yes, certainly, don't say defund the police.
But I even think about on like trans women and
women's sports and how that's an eighty twenty issue for people.
It's something that they think is just logical, right, like
why should this even be a discussion, And to look
at what a lynchpin that became of the Trump campaign
(27:48):
and how easily it was to paint an entire party
of quote unquote intellectuals, like people with a lot of
degrees with.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
This brush of But they don't. They won't even tell
you what a woman is, you know what.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I'll get that even on the five, like Greg will
be around with me or Jesse, But what is a woman?
Speaker 3 (28:06):
I get to say, answer.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
What's your answer to that? What is a woman?
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Like someone who's born born a woman, Like I'm a woman,
I always say, like I've pumped two babies out of
my body. I know exactly what a woman is. I
know what the mechanics look like. I you know, it
doesn't mean that I deny that transgender people exist.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
And you know, but then you have to acknowledge a
distinction between a trans woman who's technically a biological male
and a woman.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yeah, I think that trans women are a subset of women,
but they are their own category.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
See that's I mean, we don't have to parse that.
I would. I would say that they're actually a subset
of males. But I have no issue with them living
their lives however they want, I think. But the problem
is that we there's people have a problem. The issue
of like trans athletes and sports right doesn't touch many
people's lives. Democrats have absolutely have a point when they
(29:03):
say there aren't very many transit more in the high school.
But it's still a very small number of people. But
what I hear from people is that it is a
sanity test. A lot of my audience are people who
are somewhere in the middle, who are a lot of
them are former Democrats, former liberals, but they feel disaffected,
they feel disconnected. And when you have the democratic kind
(29:27):
of establishment, whether it's like the Equality Act for example,
define sex to mean whatever you self identify as with
no requirements, no acknowledgment of biology. You've got blue states
like California where they put biological male people in women's prisons,
and then some very bad things can happen. Now I
(29:47):
see the reverse where I think I see genuine cruelty
and animus towards trans people on the Republican side right now,
all over social media. And I feel bad because I
have more of a middle ground position on the but
I feel like this is an issue that Democrats got
totally wrong or went way too far to one extreme
from But they really I mean the activist class that
(30:10):
you mentioned, the Democratic side is ardently wetted to these
extreme positions. And I don't really see Democrats willing to
go against the human rights campaign, the ACLU. How do
they thread that needle?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Well, I think you're going to see a lot more
of it in twenty twenty six. I think that there
will be a movement, and you've seen a trickling in already,
with like Gavin Newsom and Seth Moulten kind of talking
about these issues more like I have daughters, right, That's
what Sas said. I don't think that they should be
they play competitive sports. I don't think that these things
(30:46):
should be mixed. Abigail Spanberger is running for governor in Virginia.
She's moved to saying like this is between this is
for individual schools to decide and parents to kind of
make it more like a personal choice states rights issue
kind of explanation for it, which I think would appeal
more to a libertarian slash right leaning perspective on it.
(31:10):
But I'm not going to sit here and argue that
we have a perfect answer. I just know that Democrats
are fed up with losing and would have being painted
with this brush that we don't know what biology means
because that's obviously not the case. And for as for
groups like the Human Rights Campaign or the ACLU, I
(31:33):
don't think that they're going to have the kind of
impact on elections going forward that they would like to
if they're going to have these strict lines about it,
and you even see some relaxation of it, and you know,
prominent figures in those movements and how they're representing themselves
on social media. I'm not saying that they're changing exactly
what they're saying. They're just attacking less like unless someone
(31:56):
is overtly anti trans I would say, I don't see
as much of the fervor about it anymore, and I
you know, nothing is perfect, but I do know that
if you don't even have a seat at the table,
you have absolutely no chance at having any impact. And
(32:17):
I think there's a very real fear amongst some of
these activists groups.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
I think this is true as well.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
And on immigration, where you know, people would push the
Abiden administration to you know, say things like the border
is closed, or you know this doesn't matter, or you know,
we're all just human beings and we you know, we
can take up to ten more million people. Whatever it
is that they know that there is no needle to
(32:46):
it's read in that direction anymore. So you have to
focus on the things that are more tangible. Maybe that's
a pie in the sky way of looking at it.
And I'm a centrist deem so I get to say
those things. I don't know what that's like for someone
in Progressive Caucus for inscience.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
But it's interesting how many of the things that came
back to haunt Kamala Harrison her twenty twenty four campaign
actually came from the ACL UN.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Tell you yeah, no, I definitely know that yeah, but
it's also like, I mean, Kamala Harris is her whole,
you know, as a whole, separate discussion. But you know,
this is one of those moments where the facts stop
mattering as much to people because Kamala Harris tik tik
(33:30):
tik tik tik said yes to all of those things
on the acl YOU survey. And the thing in particular
that we're talking about is gender affirming care for undocumented
people that are in our prison system, but which it's
like so long to say, you think, like a it's
made up or be how could this possibly matter because
it probably applies to one person. But the one person
(33:51):
that it did apply to actually was in prison during
the Trump administration and received the gender affirming care that
they wanted. And I brought that up on the five.
I got a bunch of eye rolls. I don't even
remember Greg's line of attack necessarily from that day. But
that's the reality on the ground. But because Donald Trump
has a reputation as being someone who either would never
(34:14):
have authorized that or be has no idea what's going on,
which is usually what happens like.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
It's probably the latter. I think he probably had no
idea that was happening, of course.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
And he didn't even know a few weeks ago that
he had cut like two hundred million dollars from the
New York law enforcement budget until Kathy Hochel got him
on the phone and then he said, oh, restored, and
then you know, put out a true social post saying
everybody should thank me. So it's a it's a frustrating
place to be, but I do think that hitting proverbial
rock bottom has caused a lot of thoughtful reflection and
(34:50):
also people to think more strategically about how they can
ensure that they are protecting the groups that they want
to protect while still winning an election so that that
can continue, because if you're not in office, you can't
stop the Republican Party from putting forward some of these
trans bills that we're seeing all over the country and
(35:12):
like don't say gay laws and things like that, and
you know, five six year olds that are being preyed
upon versus you know, if you have a bit of power,
that can go a long way.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, I think that's important. Right, you can be as
pure as you want, but if you have no power,
you're not going to be able to accomplish anything the
and I know we only have a few minutes left.
But the one other thing I want to ask you
about is I think one thing that's totally alienated me
from the Democrats is what I would call like the
equity push versus equality. So when you have for example,
(35:41):
I'll give you the perfect example is when the Biden
administration said for my Supreme Court nominee, I'm going to
only pick a black woman. What I'm I think that
takes America in just such a wrong direction. I think
that isolates white men, whereas if he'd simply said I'm
going to pick the best person for the job and
(36:02):
then picked Katanji Brown Jackson, who has the qualifications to
stand on her own two feet. But it really did
seem to me, especially in the twenty twenty to maybe
twenty twenty three era, whether it's LATINX, whether it's the
equity and the openly like saying this race first, that race,
that they went so far on some of this identity stuff.
(36:24):
Do you see them moving away from that in the
near future.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
I think it's linked to what I was just talking about,
that you were seeing people recalibrate and think more seriously
about the impact of what they viewed as just kind
of casual all of branches, right, or a campaigning slogan
or something to just kind of throw out there that
(36:52):
they didn't think would actually ruffle more feathers. And the
way that the Supreme Court has operated, and you know,
getting rid of affirmative action, for instance, and then seeing
that there were a lot more people who felt okay
about that.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
Than we had expected.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
And there were also school systems, like even in California
that were race blind to play, you know, a super
liberal state, and that everyone felt pretty much okay about that.
That the reality on the ground is very different than
the reality in our ivory towers or in our liberal bubbles.
And so yeah, I don't think that you'll see another
(37:28):
Democratic nominee make a pledge like that. I do think
that twenty twenty was a very different time. I think
George Floyd's murder and what happened during you know, the
Black Lives Matter protests were different. I think that Jim
Clyburn's impact on the race is also very different and
would not be replicated again in twenty twenty eight. Everyone's
going to go to the fish fry and wear the
(37:49):
T shirt, the clyburn T shirt. But I don't think
that he'll have such a specific impact in terms of
like picking who the running me is going to be,
which is you know, from all the reporting, essentially what
happened that it was between Val Demings and Kamala Harris,
and that Cliburne was a Kamala Harris person. And you know,
(38:11):
I don't know what things have been different if President
Biden's VP was the first black female police chief from Orlando.
Maybe she rides motorcycles, she's pretty badass. You know, it's
a very different profile, right. You know, there were lefties
that were mad and super disappointed that he had picked
a cop right in Kamala Harris. But like she was,
(38:34):
Val Diamis is a real cop right extree cop right
and that might have appealed to a totally different subsection
of voters that would have, you know, felt differently in
twenty twenty four about the thing.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Oh, I we have to wrap, but give us a name.
Who should the Democratic nominee be in twenty twenty eight?
In your opinion, who should it be?
Speaker 1 (38:56):
I'm scared to pick because I'm scared to say this,
because I think it is going to be a tough road,
even though Kamala was destroyed over her concerns about Josh Shapiro.
But I think Josh Shapiro would be a pretty formidable candidate.
He has over sixty percent approval rating. Republicans love him.
He's from what do we call it, the get Shit
(39:18):
Done Caucus rebuilding I ninety five and twenty minutes, And
as a liberal Jew, I would be very proud to
have somebody who's so open about their faith, but who
also has clear eyed about the situation in the Middle
East leading our party. So I'm going to go Josh Shapiro,
(39:40):
but it could be like AOC and Gavin Newsom.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
I think it's gonna be wild and a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I'm excited for another Do you think it's going to
be would? I think AOC has got the money. I
think she's got the magic talent. I think she'll either
be the VP or the nominee.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility,
and I used to really not think that was She's grown.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
When she first entered she seemed like a dummy to me.
But she has learned a lot more, and she has
the charisma and the talent and the beauty, and that
is what matters more than anything.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Now, isn't it just She also, I don't know if
you were at the DNZ, but when she gave her speech,
it was a traditional economic popular speech, you know, talked
about being a waitress, all those things, and there was
no trace of leftyism on it. And I was like,
that girl heard Nancy Pelosi loud and clear when she
(40:34):
came to her and said, if you want to be
on a committee that you actually like, you better get
in line. And AOC got in line. And now she's
at the head of the line.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
So all right, well, Dethica, you have to go kick
out TV. Okay, so thank you so much. This has
been We will talk again real soon.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
I'd love that, right,
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