June 30, 2025 • 23 mins
I just got back from a trip to Aspen, Colorado, where I debated liberal TikTok star Dean Withers and MAGA influencer Jayme Leagh Franklin on Gen Z, identity politics, free speech, and more. We break down the spiciest moments in this episode of the Brad vs Everyone podcast.
Watch our full Aspen Institute panel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w34QtUM3oWg&t=329s
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Democratic parties embrace of an identity politics that in
certain spheres makes young white heterosexual men in particular feel
like they're problematic by virtue of their existence.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
From a position of privilege, equality can seem like oppression.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I debated a liberal TikTok star and an Avid Trump
supporter live on stage and it got interesting. Hey, guys,
and welcome back to the Brad Versus Everyone podcast, my
daily show where we take on the craziest ideas from
(00:38):
across the Internet, our media, and our politics, all from
an independent perspective. I'm excited to bring you guys a
little update and some clips from a really interesting event
I did with the Aspen Institute at their Ideas Festival,
alongside liberal TikTok star Dean Withers and a conservative influencer
(00:59):
named Jamie Franklin. The panel was hosted by Jack Blanchard
of Politico. Before we get into all that, as you
guys know, my life is still in chaos. I just
moved into this new Miami apartment, so no, this is
not a good setup. I was just trapped in airport. Hell,
got stuck in Aspen because of wins. Had to drive
(01:19):
all the way to Denver and then take a red eye.
So yes, I looked tired. No, I'm not at my
most stunning or gorgeous today, but I am still dedicated
and contractually obligated to bring you a show today. So
you know what, We're going to do it, and we're
going to make it work, all right, So, without further ado,
the topic of the panel was about gen Z and
(01:43):
how TikTok has changed you to politics, and so we
had an interesting conversation about that and about the rise
of new media versus mainstream media. But there were a
couple heated points, particularly that came up around the topic
of why it is exactly that the Democratic Party and
the left have lost the support of gen z Men.
(02:04):
Dean and I had very different theories about why that's happening.
Let's take a look at the clip. I see gen
z men skewing right and gen z women skewing left,
perhaps more so than other generations. I certainly didn't anticipate
this because when I started my career it was all
about how young people love socialism. Young people were very
left wing. I think the pandemic changed things for a
(02:26):
lot of people. I think they lost trust in a
lot of institutions. School closures were really harmful, and they
happened everywhere, but they were significantly worse in many blue
states under many Democratic governors, and people hold them accountable
for that. Then, I also think and TikTok amplified this
to some extent, there was a cultural narrative that I
(02:47):
don't endorse what a lot of them flocked to. In
that I'm very critical of Trump, I'm very critical of
kind of modern right wing politics, but that pushed a
lot of young gen Z men away from the left
and away from the cultural left that GenZ women many
were drawn to.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I mean, you can only hear like explicitly.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Said that men are trash so many times on social
media before you start listening to terrible people like Andrew
Tait who tell you, actually, men are awesome, right, and
so whether it's that it's kind of the Democratic Party's
embrace of an identity politics that in certain spheres makes
(03:26):
young white heterosexual men in particular feel like they're problematic
by virtue of their existence. And I think the Democrats
many have started to reckon with and move away from that.
But peak twenty twenty era it was pretty extreme, and
I think a lot of that fueled people towards Joe
(03:47):
Rogan or these other platforms that then liberals pretty foolishly
seated right. Part of the reason that many of these
podcast scued so right wing is because the hosts actually
don't know anything about politics, so it can just be
led wherever they want by the guests. And for a
long time many Democrats and progressives wouldn't go on them.
They didn't want to, you know, talk to somebody who
(04:09):
has had transphobic tweets or something. But in reality it's like, Okay,
he still has millions of viewers, and you're trying to
convince the public of your opinion.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I see this changing, but not enough.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
And I think some of the damage is done with
some of these young men who've been pushed away.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
And I mean, the left can't even say what a
woman is at this point, and so they can't define
what a woman is. And so when you can't even
define to younger people what a woman is, yeah, and
you're telling people use their pronouns all the time, and
you're telling people if they're certain race or their gender
is bad, You're going to see people are alienated by.
Speaker 5 (04:45):
That, regardless of you A greeod disagree, is that you
feel that the messaging that was coming from the left
of that period of time was alienizing for a lot
of young people. That's basically what you're saying. Whether you
a graiod disagree with the political points, it's exactly what
Brad was saying as well.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Do you agree with.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
That phenomenal Well, I think from a position of privilege,
equality can seem like oppression, and I think something that
the left has really failed at in recent history is
finding a way to make that clear with the use
of educational content and not saying, you know, just coming
out with like the one liners of I don't know,
(05:20):
like men suck or whatever. But I don't know, I
haven't heard that. I'm a man, I'm huge in left
leaning politics.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Wow. So there's a lot to unpack about that clip. Really,
I know it was a long one, but I just
wanted to let it roll so you guys got a
sense of the exchange and the dialogue. And I rolled
my eyes multiple times during that when other people were speaking.
I mean, I agree kind of with what Jamie was saying,
but the way she phrased it was a little bit cringe.
And then when Dean said, well, sometimes when you're used
(05:51):
to privilege, equality feels like oppression. I just about rolled
my eyes so hard I gave myself a concussion seriously,
especially because in the same verbal paragraph he said, you know,
Democrats need to stop these one liners. Baby, you just
did a cringe one liner literally like five seconds ago.
Rewind the tape. But it's just funny to me because
(06:13):
that is something you hear. But what's interesting is that
there's a false premise baked into that statement that when
you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression. The Democratic
Party pretty openly doesn't stand for equality, right, what does
DEI stand for? Diversity, equity and inclusion? Not diversity, equality
(06:36):
and inclusion. And many of the democratic and liberal policies
that I was criticizing here in the identity politics REALM
are explicitly anti equality because they embody the equity ethos
of the We need reverse discrimination and we need to
write historical injustices with current discrimination to fix it. I mean,
(06:58):
this is explode the kind of DEI rhetoric that's embodied
in many democratic and liberal policies. So to say equality
feels like oppression, our whole issue is that it hasn't
been equality. It is not equality when people are racially
discriminated against and held do different standards in higher education admissions.
(07:20):
But that's the affirmative action regime that Democrats in lockstep defended,
that held Asians and whites to a much higher standard
than other races in terms of GPA and SAT score,
And it is incredibly statistically apparent when you look at
the numbers. This all came out during the Supreme Court
case about it. In the same way, it is not
(07:41):
equality when you're a Democratic president and Joe Biden and
you specifically say I will only appoint a black woman
to the Supreme Court for my nomination, So you just
categorically rule out most of the legal community, right, most
white women, all men of all races. Same thing with
(08:01):
his vice president, he said, I will only pick a woman,
and I am strongly leaning towards a woman of color.
Narrowing the list down to just a couple people out
of all these potential candidates in the Democratic Party, that
is not equality. So no, it's not that people feel like, oh,
I'm used to this comfort and privilege, which and discrimination
which historically absolutely has existed against women and in favor
(08:24):
of men.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
But it's not that.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Well, you know, now, we just stand for equality, and
people who are used to privilege don't like that. It's like, no,
equality is not in the room with us. We've had
this toxic, discriminatory, divisive approach to identity taken in the
name of equity that is at its core anti equality. Seriously,
(08:45):
the Republican position has been equality under the law on
many of these issues, and the Democratic position has been
woke reverse discrimination. So no, it's not just that white
men flocked right because white heterosexual men in particular because
they're used to privilege and they're mad about equality. That's
not it at all. And I'm surprised Dean doesn't get
(09:06):
it a little bit more, just because also he hasn't
encountered particular rhetoric and ecosystems and spaces. Well, he's also
very young, and I chatted with him. He seems like
a really nice guy. I think he's really smart, but
he's also very young. I think he's like twenty one,
and so when a lot of this peak identity stuff
was happening, he would have been like fourteen fifteen, right
(09:28):
during the twenty twenty era. So I think maybe just
because he's missed some of it, or he's not plugged
into the online circles where this stuff is still commonplace.
Doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Now we're going to
get to this next clip where I did call out
Dean directly. No shade, just a little bit of shade.
But we're going to get to that. But first make
sure subscribe. If you aren't yet, do hit that like button.
(09:50):
While you're at it, comment with your thoughts. Check out
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Now let's take a look at the second clip where
(10:14):
I did have to call Dan out because he was
denying in the course of this conversation, the Democrats really
had a messaging problem, and I did have to bring
up his recent experience that I covered on the show
where his planned anti Trump TikTok tour with all the
stars from TikTok imploded over microaggressions. Take a listen to
this clip.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So about the marketing of the left.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
I think that the biggest issue with why we've seen
this trend in younger Americans going more to the right
isn't the idea that we don't know how to define
what a woman is, but it's more so the idea
that the right has been able to ingrain themselves in
the culture. Rather if your man going to the gym,
looking to your favorite gym influencer on the internet, chances
are they support Trump, or a woman interested in learning
(10:57):
how to bake sour bread dough tell me earlier. Chances
are the content creator giving that to you supports Trump.
And I feel like the root of this issue has
to do with issues within the DNC and the Democratic
Party not necessarily being as good as they could be
at their messaging.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Now on the messaging, though, Dean specifically, so you're kind of.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
You're going to say this without making any political plants.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
No, no, I mean this is specifically about what you
asked about. You were just involved in an effort to
organize an anti Trump tour called the Unfuck America Tour.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Well guess why, guys.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
I like this, The Unfuck America Tour descended into chaos
over imaginary microaggressions that occurred in a TikTok live. I
watched the whole live microaggressions, which is not a real concept,
first of all.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
To the extent that it is.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
There were no microaggressions on the call. In fact, the
white woman accused of microaggression was actually pretty vociferously racially
abused by.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
The women on the TikTok live.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
They tried to organize a tour to resist Trump all
the liberal stars of TikTok, Dean, any of his friends,
and it imploded over internal fighting over micro.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
But I don't know what it is.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, the moderator really didn't want me to get into that,
and I understand. I wasn't trying to derail it. I
wasn't trying to even take shots at Dean, like I said,
I like Dean, I think he's sharp. I just had
to point out that he was saying, well, like, it's
the Democratic Party that has messaging problems. Our actual message
as liberals is strong, and I was just I had
to point this out. You literally couldn't even organize a
(12:31):
campus tour all these stars of left wing TikTok without
the whole thing imploding into a massive scandal of infighting
over microaggressions like that to beyond parody. And like I
said in the clip, if that's not a messaging problem,
I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Like.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
I struggle to imagine a more clear example of that,
because you can't even get your advocates out there on
the road because you're so consumed by inner civil war
overwoke absurdity the Democrats. It's not just the party. It's
not just the DNC that has a messaging problem. It
is the left. It is liberals and progressives online and
(13:10):
in media who still cling to a lot of these
absurd ideas. Like most black people in America do not
think that a microaggression is a real concept, but the
TikTok stars that somehow big parts of this movement are
held hostage too, still buy into this absurd logic that
like minor verbal tics cause some sort of harm and
(13:33):
people need to be held accountable for them. It's all
just so antiquated and it's really holding them back. And
as long as you're in denial about that, I don't
really see how you're gonna get past it. So that's
why I brought it up. It wasn't even trying to
shade Dean, it really wasn't. It was just like, this
is a hilarious example that the messengers on the left
(13:53):
are the problem as well, not just the DNC and
the Democratic candidates for office. In fact, I think the
problems that the Democratic candidates for office and the DNC
have are often driven by the fact that they're afraid
of the activist and media left, and so they do
what they want or they pander to them in ways
that are not palatable to the rest of the country.
(14:14):
So I thought that was a funny moment. But the
third point that I want to show you from this
debate was I think potentially the most interesting and the
most substantive of anything that we discussed, and it was
during the Q and A. None of the questions were
like hostile or gotcha or crazy or anything like that,
which is always a concern because with live events q
and as can go off the rails pretty quickly. But
(14:36):
one person asked us about freedom of speech and censorship
online because we had talked a lot about the perils
of kind of misinformation and fake news and misleading things
spreading on TikTok and on other platforms, and I thought
we had a really interesting exchange. Take a listen to this.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
What is your position on mediated content to reduce the
amount of intentionally false information being fed to be?
Speaker 5 (15:00):
All right, thank you, that's a very good question. I'm
gonna start with bright Actually.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
So, I think it's a real problem.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I see misinformation on TikTok, I see it on X
all the time with different political valances. I don't trust
any central authority, particularly a government authority, to decide what
is true.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
And what is false.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
And I would rather have a messy, chaotic, free flow
of misinformation and have a centralized authority with that kind
of power. That said, I don't think we're helpless in
the face of what is a very real problem. I
think the solution is teaching people media literacy to critically think,
and also community based things like even community notes on
(15:40):
X has brutally fact checked Elon Musk multiple times on
his own website. So that's given me some faith that
you can implement things that come short of kind of
centralized censorship, but still provide context or facts or challenge
misinformation or false information that's spreading like wildfire.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I think that there's a healthy medium. So I think
that points some of the points that both of you
just made about not having a centralized government kind of
decide everything for the consumers of these platforms and what
they can or can't post, or what is true and
isn't true. I think that there's a lot of scenarios
where you guys are spot on. We shouldn't have that
because then those who are in power can control, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
What is true and what is false.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
So I think that the happy medium is saying, well, okay,
here is a base set of facts that can't be false,
and if somebody says they're false, take their posts down.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
You know. But did that work out in COVID?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
I think that Facebook labeled the lablique theory disinformation and
took down experts.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Now you allow me to finish speaking.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Allow me to finish speaking, Brad. What I'm saying is
I don't think that if an election hinged on fifty
percent of the population believing that you know, the Earth
was flat, you should be able to go on Twitter
and tell a million people that the Earth is flat. Now,
with that being said, what I will also say is
that the ad of decentralized forms of accountability such as
community notes on X is something.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
That I love.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I couldn't agree with you two more. I think that
there should be some base facts that should be protected
not by government but by the mediators of these platforms.
But then anything outside of these base facts that can't
be contested, regardless of your political ideology. Some decentralized form
of accountability such as community notes on X is a
great thing, and on that we can agree completely.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
But the facts are the heart of the dispute.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
I think when you see three cases, when you censor people,
it creates more conspiracies.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So I really enjoyed this exchange, and I like this
clip because to me, it shows the shortcomings of kind
of the milk toasts liberal position on freedom of speech,
which always goes something like this. They will absolutely pay
homage to. You know, free speech is so important. I
agree with you, and you know, maybe we don't want
the government involved with it. But if these big tech
(17:56):
companies want to just censor people who question the fact,
that's good and important. And maybe they don't know this,
or maybe they do know it and that's why they
support it. But part of the problem is that when
I say, I don't trust to centralized authority to decide
what's true and what's false. I mean the government first
and foremost, but I also mean these tech companies, which
(18:18):
have done a terrible job at that in recent years,
and overwhelmingly their employees skew in one political direction. So
even if they tried to do their best job to
be fair and neutral, they're still going to have very
strong biases that will kind of take the form of
their moderation decisions. And I just cannot disagree more profoundly
(18:40):
with this idea that, well, we can allow people to
have their opinions, but we just have to agree on
the baseline facts and then don't let people question the facts.
I mean, the problem is that on so many issues,
the facts are the dispute. I mean, Democrats believe, for example,
that it is a fact that most Democrats that the
(19:02):
transgender representative Sarah McBride is a woman. Republicans believe that
it is a fact that Sarah McBride is a man. Now,
I think we need to have that conversation, but you
literally cannot in a situation where one version and I
think we all know which version it's likely to be,
is declared the facts, and the people who are questioning
(19:24):
the facts get censored by Facebook or Instagram or TikTok
or what have you. We all know, I mean, on
so many issues, the facts are the core of the dispute.
And also the idea that there's like some established notion
of what the true set of facts is isn't correct.
We saw this during COVID, where things labeled conspiracy theories
(19:46):
or ended up being potentially true, and where claims evolved
and shifted over time. Where what so at the beginning
of the pandemic when they told us don't wear masks,
and then they switched to yes, wear mask, Like, at
what point where those the facts and you weren't allowed
to question it. It's just such a messy endeavor that
I think inevitably leads to the squashing of actual debate
(20:09):
and disagreement, and kind of perfectly encapsulates the problem I
have with the mainstream liberal perspective on free speech, which
always falls back on this kind of tyranny of the
experts or technocracy of well, we'll just allow the big
platforms to crack down on people who question the facts
(20:29):
or the science. I mean, even an issue we talk
about on this channel a lot. And I don't know
what Dean's position is, so I'm not even trying to
necessarily say this about him, but the question of minors
transitioning and whether it's ethical, whether it's safe, whether it's
supported by the data, the facts. Originally they told us
miners don't get surgeries, that's a fake myth. Then we
(20:51):
pointed insurance filings came out that showed thousands of miners
getting surgeries. They claim that, you know, this care is
life saving, as I've covered in the show, that is
not factually true, but that's a fact according to many
of these liberal media outlets that they would turn to,
the tech companies would turn to. They've just parroted this
claim from activists. So really, what happens then is that
one side of debates gets ingrained as the facts, and
(21:15):
then the other side gets cracked down upon. And then
Jamie mentioned there at the end that it leads to conspiracies,
and I actually think that's true, Like when you censor people,
it doesn't necessarily make them weaker or take away their
influence or their followers. I mean, I didn't include this
in the clip, but I did bring it up on stage.
After twenty twenty, and after the disgrace that was January sixth,
(21:38):
the social media companies band Donald Trump, Facebook, Twitter, all
of them literally deleted his accounts. Did he go away?
Did he lose support? Did he was he successfully combated
because he questioned the facts of the election. No, it
just made people support him more. It made them go
(21:59):
to platforms where they only saw people that shared their
kind of conspiratorial views about twenty twenty, like truth, social
and parlor and what have you. It didn't achieve any
of the desired goals. And now look look where he
is now, Look where our country is now. So this
approach of oh, we'll just allow the enlightened, big tech
(22:19):
companies to censor and decide one version of the facts
has not gone well for the country or for liberals. Honestly,
So I thought that that was a really mistaken and
misguided position to take. But I thought it was an
interesting exchange and one that reveals a lot about the
differences in the way that people like Deane and people
like me. You see, the world didn't see freedom of
speech in particular. But what do you guys think? Did
(22:41):
you enjoy watching these clips? And honestly, I'd be interested
in having a longer conversation with Dean in some capacity
in some form in the future, but do let me know.
I will link to the full conversation in the description
and make sure you're subscribed. If you aren't yet, do
hit that like button comment with your thoughts. I do
take the time to read the comments. I always love
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(23:03):
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The Democratic parties embrace of an identity politics that in
certain spheres makes young white heterosexual men in particular feel
like they're problematic by virtue of their existence.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
From a position of privilege, equality can seem like oppression.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I debated a liberal TikTok star and an Avid Trump
supporter live on stage and it got interesting. Hey, guys,
and welcome back to the Brad Versus Everyone podcast, my
daily show where we take on the craziest ideas from
(00:38):
across the Internet, our media, and our politics, all from
an independent perspective. I'm excited to bring you guys a
little update and some clips from a really interesting event
I did with the Aspen Institute at their Ideas Festival,
alongside liberal TikTok star Dean Withers and a conservative influencer
(00:59):
named Jamie Franklin. The panel was hosted by Jack Blanchard
of Politico. Before we get into all that, as you
guys know, my life is still in chaos. I just
moved into this new Miami apartment, so no, this is
not a good setup. I was just trapped in airport. Hell,
got stuck in Aspen because of wins. Had to drive
(01:19):
all the way to Denver and then take a red eye.
So yes, I looked tired. No, I'm not at my
most stunning or gorgeous today, but I am still dedicated
and contractually obligated to bring you a show today. So
you know what, We're going to do it, and we're
going to make it work, all right, So, without further ado,
the topic of the panel was about gen Z and
(01:43):
how TikTok has changed you to politics, and so we
had an interesting conversation about that and about the rise
of new media versus mainstream media. But there were a
couple heated points, particularly that came up around the topic
of why it is exactly that the Democratic Party and
the left have lost the support of gen z Men.
(02:04):
Dean and I had very different theories about why that's happening.
Let's take a look at the clip. I see gen
z men skewing right and gen z women skewing left,
perhaps more so than other generations. I certainly didn't anticipate
this because when I started my career it was all
about how young people love socialism. Young people were very
left wing. I think the pandemic changed things for a
(02:26):
lot of people. I think they lost trust in a
lot of institutions. School closures were really harmful, and they
happened everywhere, but they were significantly worse in many blue
states under many Democratic governors, and people hold them accountable
for that. Then, I also think and TikTok amplified this
to some extent, there was a cultural narrative that I
(02:47):
don't endorse what a lot of them flocked to. In
that I'm very critical of Trump, I'm very critical of
kind of modern right wing politics, but that pushed a
lot of young gen Z men away from the left
and away from the cultural left that GenZ women many
were drawn to.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I mean, you can only hear like explicitly.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Said that men are trash so many times on social
media before you start listening to terrible people like Andrew
Tait who tell you, actually, men are awesome, right, and
so whether it's that it's kind of the Democratic Party's
embrace of an identity politics that in certain spheres makes
(03:26):
young white heterosexual men in particular feel like they're problematic
by virtue of their existence. And I think the Democrats
many have started to reckon with and move away from that.
But peak twenty twenty era it was pretty extreme, and
I think a lot of that fueled people towards Joe
(03:47):
Rogan or these other platforms that then liberals pretty foolishly
seated right. Part of the reason that many of these
podcast scued so right wing is because the hosts actually
don't know anything about politics, so it can just be
led wherever they want by the guests. And for a
long time many Democrats and progressives wouldn't go on them.
They didn't want to, you know, talk to somebody who
(04:09):
has had transphobic tweets or something. But in reality it's like, Okay,
he still has millions of viewers, and you're trying to
convince the public of your opinion.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I see this changing, but not enough.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
And I think some of the damage is done with
some of these young men who've been pushed away.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
And I mean, the left can't even say what a
woman is at this point, and so they can't define
what a woman is. And so when you can't even
define to younger people what a woman is, yeah, and
you're telling people use their pronouns all the time, and
you're telling people if they're certain race or their gender
is bad, You're going to see people are alienated by.
Speaker 5 (04:45):
That, regardless of you A greeod disagree, is that you
feel that the messaging that was coming from the left
of that period of time was alienizing for a lot
of young people. That's basically what you're saying. Whether you
a graiod disagree with the political points, it's exactly what
Brad was saying as well.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Do you agree with.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
That phenomenal Well, I think from a position of privilege,
equality can seem like oppression, and I think something that
the left has really failed at in recent history is
finding a way to make that clear with the use
of educational content and not saying, you know, just coming
out with like the one liners of I don't know,
(05:20):
like men suck or whatever. But I don't know, I
haven't heard that. I'm a man, I'm huge in left
leaning politics.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Wow. So there's a lot to unpack about that clip. Really,
I know it was a long one, but I just
wanted to let it roll so you guys got a
sense of the exchange and the dialogue. And I rolled
my eyes multiple times during that when other people were speaking.
I mean, I agree kind of with what Jamie was saying,
but the way she phrased it was a little bit cringe.
And then when Dean said, well, sometimes when you're used
(05:51):
to privilege, equality feels like oppression. I just about rolled
my eyes so hard I gave myself a concussion seriously,
especially because in the same verbal paragraph he said, you know,
Democrats need to stop these one liners. Baby, you just
did a cringe one liner literally like five seconds ago.
Rewind the tape. But it's just funny to me because
(06:13):
that is something you hear. But what's interesting is that
there's a false premise baked into that statement that when
you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression. The Democratic
Party pretty openly doesn't stand for equality, right, what does
DEI stand for? Diversity, equity and inclusion? Not diversity, equality
(06:36):
and inclusion. And many of the democratic and liberal policies
that I was criticizing here in the identity politics REALM
are explicitly anti equality because they embody the equity ethos
of the We need reverse discrimination and we need to
write historical injustices with current discrimination to fix it. I mean,
(06:58):
this is explode the kind of DEI rhetoric that's embodied
in many democratic and liberal policies. So to say equality
feels like oppression, our whole issue is that it hasn't
been equality. It is not equality when people are racially
discriminated against and held do different standards in higher education admissions.
(07:20):
But that's the affirmative action regime that Democrats in lockstep defended,
that held Asians and whites to a much higher standard
than other races in terms of GPA and SAT score,
And it is incredibly statistically apparent when you look at
the numbers. This all came out during the Supreme Court
case about it. In the same way, it is not
(07:41):
equality when you're a Democratic president and Joe Biden and
you specifically say I will only appoint a black woman
to the Supreme Court for my nomination, So you just
categorically rule out most of the legal community, right, most
white women, all men of all races. Same thing with
(08:01):
his vice president, he said, I will only pick a woman,
and I am strongly leaning towards a woman of color.
Narrowing the list down to just a couple people out
of all these potential candidates in the Democratic Party, that
is not equality. So no, it's not that people feel like, oh,
I'm used to this comfort and privilege, which and discrimination
which historically absolutely has existed against women and in favor
(08:24):
of men.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
But it's not that.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Well, you know, now, we just stand for equality, and
people who are used to privilege don't like that. It's like, no,
equality is not in the room with us. We've had
this toxic, discriminatory, divisive approach to identity taken in the
name of equity that is at its core anti equality. Seriously,
(08:45):
the Republican position has been equality under the law on
many of these issues, and the Democratic position has been
woke reverse discrimination. So no, it's not just that white
men flocked right because white heterosexual men in particular because
they're used to privilege and they're mad about equality. That's
not it at all. And I'm surprised Dean doesn't get
(09:06):
it a little bit more, just because also he hasn't
encountered particular rhetoric and ecosystems and spaces. Well, he's also
very young, and I chatted with him. He seems like
a really nice guy. I think he's really smart, but
he's also very young. I think he's like twenty one,
and so when a lot of this peak identity stuff
was happening, he would have been like fourteen fifteen, right
(09:28):
during the twenty twenty era. So I think maybe just
because he's missed some of it, or he's not plugged
into the online circles where this stuff is still commonplace.
Doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Now we're going to
get to this next clip where I did call out
Dean directly. No shade, just a little bit of shade.
But we're going to get to that. But first make
sure subscribe. If you aren't yet, do hit that like button.
(09:50):
While you're at it, comment with your thoughts. Check out
the emerch link in the description. Subscribe to my second
channel and sending your voicemails for voicemail Friday episodes where
we react to your woke horra stories and your personal
life scenarios and give you my honest advice and feedback.
The link to send those in is in the description.
Now let's take a look at the second clip where
(10:14):
I did have to call Dan out because he was
denying in the course of this conversation, the Democrats really
had a messaging problem, and I did have to bring
up his recent experience that I covered on the show
where his planned anti Trump TikTok tour with all the
stars from TikTok imploded over microaggressions. Take a listen to
this clip.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So about the marketing of the left.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
I think that the biggest issue with why we've seen
this trend in younger Americans going more to the right
isn't the idea that we don't know how to define
what a woman is, but it's more so the idea
that the right has been able to ingrain themselves in
the culture. Rather if your man going to the gym,
looking to your favorite gym influencer on the internet, chances
are they support Trump, or a woman interested in learning
(10:57):
how to bake sour bread dough tell me earlier. Chances
are the content creator giving that to you supports Trump.
And I feel like the root of this issue has
to do with issues within the DNC and the Democratic
Party not necessarily being as good as they could be
at their messaging.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Now on the messaging, though, Dean specifically, so you're kind of.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
You're going to say this without making any political plants.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
No, no, I mean this is specifically about what you
asked about. You were just involved in an effort to
organize an anti Trump tour called the Unfuck America Tour.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Well guess why, guys.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
I like this, The Unfuck America Tour descended into chaos
over imaginary microaggressions that occurred in a TikTok live. I
watched the whole live microaggressions, which is not a real concept,
first of all.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
To the extent that it is.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
There were no microaggressions on the call. In fact, the
white woman accused of microaggression was actually pretty vociferously racially
abused by.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
The women on the TikTok live.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
They tried to organize a tour to resist Trump all
the liberal stars of TikTok, Dean, any of his friends,
and it imploded over internal fighting over micro.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
But I don't know what it is.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, the moderator really didn't want me to get into that,
and I understand. I wasn't trying to derail it. I
wasn't trying to even take shots at Dean, like I said,
I like Dean, I think he's sharp. I just had
to point out that he was saying, well, like, it's
the Democratic Party that has messaging problems. Our actual message
as liberals is strong, and I was just I had
to point this out. You literally couldn't even organize a
(12:31):
campus tour all these stars of left wing TikTok without
the whole thing imploding into a massive scandal of infighting
over microaggressions like that to beyond parody. And like I
said in the clip, if that's not a messaging problem,
I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Like.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
I struggle to imagine a more clear example of that,
because you can't even get your advocates out there on
the road because you're so consumed by inner civil war
overwoke absurdity the Democrats. It's not just the party. It's
not just the DNC that has a messaging problem. It
is the left. It is liberals and progressives online and
(13:10):
in media who still cling to a lot of these
absurd ideas. Like most black people in America do not
think that a microaggression is a real concept, but the
TikTok stars that somehow big parts of this movement are
held hostage too, still buy into this absurd logic that
like minor verbal tics cause some sort of harm and
(13:33):
people need to be held accountable for them. It's all
just so antiquated and it's really holding them back. And
as long as you're in denial about that, I don't
really see how you're gonna get past it. So that's
why I brought it up. It wasn't even trying to
shade Dean, it really wasn't. It was just like, this
is a hilarious example that the messengers on the left
(13:53):
are the problem as well, not just the DNC and
the Democratic candidates for office. In fact, I think the
problems that the Democratic candidates for office and the DNC
have are often driven by the fact that they're afraid
of the activist and media left, and so they do
what they want or they pander to them in ways
that are not palatable to the rest of the country.
(14:14):
So I thought that was a funny moment. But the
third point that I want to show you from this
debate was I think potentially the most interesting and the
most substantive of anything that we discussed, and it was
during the Q and A. None of the questions were
like hostile or gotcha or crazy or anything like that,
which is always a concern because with live events q
and as can go off the rails pretty quickly. But
(14:36):
one person asked us about freedom of speech and censorship
online because we had talked a lot about the perils
of kind of misinformation and fake news and misleading things
spreading on TikTok and on other platforms, and I thought
we had a really interesting exchange. Take a listen to this.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
What is your position on mediated content to reduce the
amount of intentionally false information being fed to be?
Speaker 5 (15:00):
All right, thank you, that's a very good question. I'm
gonna start with bright Actually.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
So, I think it's a real problem.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I see misinformation on TikTok, I see it on X
all the time with different political valances. I don't trust
any central authority, particularly a government authority, to decide what
is true.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
And what is false.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
And I would rather have a messy, chaotic, free flow
of misinformation and have a centralized authority with that kind
of power. That said, I don't think we're helpless in
the face of what is a very real problem. I
think the solution is teaching people media literacy to critically think,
and also community based things like even community notes on
(15:40):
X has brutally fact checked Elon Musk multiple times on
his own website. So that's given me some faith that
you can implement things that come short of kind of
centralized censorship, but still provide context or facts or challenge
misinformation or false information that's spreading like wildfire.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I think that there's a healthy medium. So I think
that points some of the points that both of you
just made about not having a centralized government kind of
decide everything for the consumers of these platforms and what
they can or can't post, or what is true and
isn't true. I think that there's a lot of scenarios
where you guys are spot on. We shouldn't have that
because then those who are in power can control, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
What is true and what is false.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
So I think that the happy medium is saying, well, okay,
here is a base set of facts that can't be false,
and if somebody says they're false, take their posts down.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
You know. But did that work out in COVID?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
I think that Facebook labeled the lablique theory disinformation and
took down experts.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Now you allow me to finish speaking.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Allow me to finish speaking, Brad. What I'm saying is
I don't think that if an election hinged on fifty
percent of the population believing that you know, the Earth
was flat, you should be able to go on Twitter
and tell a million people that the Earth is flat. Now,
with that being said, what I will also say is
that the ad of decentralized forms of accountability such as
community notes on X is something.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
That I love.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I couldn't agree with you two more. I think that
there should be some base facts that should be protected
not by government but by the mediators of these platforms.
But then anything outside of these base facts that can't
be contested, regardless of your political ideology. Some decentralized form
of accountability such as community notes on X is a
great thing, and on that we can agree completely.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
But the facts are the heart of the dispute.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
I think when you see three cases, when you censor people,
it creates more conspiracies.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So I really enjoyed this exchange, and I like this
clip because to me, it shows the shortcomings of kind
of the milk toasts liberal position on freedom of speech,
which always goes something like this. They will absolutely pay
homage to. You know, free speech is so important. I
agree with you, and you know, maybe we don't want
the government involved with it. But if these big tech
(17:56):
companies want to just censor people who question the fact,
that's good and important. And maybe they don't know this,
or maybe they do know it and that's why they
support it. But part of the problem is that when
I say, I don't trust to centralized authority to decide
what's true and what's false. I mean the government first
and foremost, but I also mean these tech companies, which
(18:18):
have done a terrible job at that in recent years,
and overwhelmingly their employees skew in one political direction. So
even if they tried to do their best job to
be fair and neutral, they're still going to have very
strong biases that will kind of take the form of
their moderation decisions. And I just cannot disagree more profoundly
(18:40):
with this idea that, well, we can allow people to
have their opinions, but we just have to agree on
the baseline facts and then don't let people question the facts.
I mean, the problem is that on so many issues,
the facts are the dispute. I mean, Democrats believe, for example,
that it is a fact that most Democrats that the
(19:02):
transgender representative Sarah McBride is a woman. Republicans believe that
it is a fact that Sarah McBride is a man. Now,
I think we need to have that conversation, but you
literally cannot in a situation where one version and I
think we all know which version it's likely to be,
is declared the facts, and the people who are questioning
(19:24):
the facts get censored by Facebook or Instagram or TikTok
or what have you. We all know, I mean, on
so many issues, the facts are the core of the dispute.
And also the idea that there's like some established notion
of what the true set of facts is isn't correct.
We saw this during COVID, where things labeled conspiracy theories
(19:46):
or ended up being potentially true, and where claims evolved
and shifted over time. Where what so at the beginning
of the pandemic when they told us don't wear masks,
and then they switched to yes, wear mask, Like, at
what point where those the facts and you weren't allowed
to question it. It's just such a messy endeavor that
I think inevitably leads to the squashing of actual debate
(20:09):
and disagreement, and kind of perfectly encapsulates the problem I
have with the mainstream liberal perspective on free speech, which
always falls back on this kind of tyranny of the
experts or technocracy of well, we'll just allow the big
platforms to crack down on people who question the facts
(20:29):
or the science. I mean, even an issue we talk
about on this channel a lot. And I don't know
what Dean's position is, so I'm not even trying to
necessarily say this about him, but the question of minors
transitioning and whether it's ethical, whether it's safe, whether it's
supported by the data, the facts. Originally they told us
miners don't get surgeries, that's a fake myth. Then we
(20:51):
pointed insurance filings came out that showed thousands of miners
getting surgeries. They claim that, you know, this care is
life saving, as I've covered in the show, that is
not factually true, but that's a fact according to many
of these liberal media outlets that they would turn to,
the tech companies would turn to. They've just parroted this
claim from activists. So really, what happens then is that
one side of debates gets ingrained as the facts, and
(21:15):
then the other side gets cracked down upon. And then
Jamie mentioned there at the end that it leads to conspiracies,
and I actually think that's true, Like when you censor people,
it doesn't necessarily make them weaker or take away their
influence or their followers. I mean, I didn't include this
in the clip, but I did bring it up on stage.
After twenty twenty, and after the disgrace that was January sixth,
(21:38):
the social media companies band Donald Trump, Facebook, Twitter, all
of them literally deleted his accounts. Did he go away?
Did he lose support? Did he was he successfully combated
because he questioned the facts of the election. No, it
just made people support him more. It made them go
(21:59):
to platforms where they only saw people that shared their
kind of conspiratorial views about twenty twenty, like truth, social
and parlor and what have you. It didn't achieve any
of the desired goals. And now look look where he
is now, Look where our country is now. So this
approach of oh, we'll just allow the enlightened, big tech
(22:19):
companies to censor and decide one version of the facts
has not gone well for the country or for liberals. Honestly,
So I thought that that was a really mistaken and
misguided position to take. But I thought it was an
interesting exchange and one that reveals a lot about the
differences in the way that people like Deane and people
like me. You see, the world didn't see freedom of
speech in particular. But what do you guys think? Did
(22:41):
you enjoy watching these clips? And honestly, I'd be interested
in having a longer conversation with Dean in some capacity
in some form in the future, but do let me know.
I will link to the full conversation in the description
and make sure you're subscribed. If you aren't yet, do
hit that like button comment with your thoughts. I do
take the time to read the comments. I always love
hearing you guys have to say. Remember sending your voice notes.
(23:03):
Check out the merch subscribe to my bonus channel. I
just uploaded a video with my mom making her react
to furry videos, so if you want to check that out,
it's only over on my bonus channel. Go subscribe to
that And with all that, guys, we'll talk again real soon.
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