June 30, 2025 • 39 mins
"Co-creation is a beautiful process." - Brian Payne
In this episode of Brave New Wealth, host Julienna sits down with Brian Payne, President and CFO of Engineering Tax Services, for a thought-provoking conversation that explores business as a living, breathing work of art. They unpack what it means to co-create in business, where emotional intelligence, vision alignment, and even healthy conflict become essential tools for innovation and growth. Brian shares wisdom from his leadership journey, emphasizing the need to nurture foundational "roots" for long-term success.
This episode offers a fresh perspective on leadership, culture, and what it truly takes to create something meaningful with your team.
Key Takeaways:
- Think of business as an ecosystem, not just a system
- Sustainable growth begins with strong roots
- Conflict can be productive when handled with emotional intelligence
- Co-creation requires intentionality and shared vision
- Leadership is about conducting the symphony, not playing every instrument
Learn more about Brian Payne: https://engineeredtaxservices.com/bios/brian-payne/
Thank you to sponsor: @Engineered-Tax-Services
Produced by @BrilliantBeamMedia
🔔 Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share if this conversation sparked something new for you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Welcome to the Brave New Wealth podcast, where we discuss wealth from a physical, mental,social and financial perspective.
I'm your host, Juliana.
Bienvenue à tout le monde.
Bienvenu à tous.
Herzlich willkommen.
Everyone is welcome here.
(00:28):
This podcast is sponsored by Engineer Tax Services, a subsidiary of Engineer Tax Advisory.
And our goal is to empower CPAs, business owners, real estate investors with education,proven strategies, and innovative strategies and expertise to help you unearth some of
(00:52):
those tax strategies that are often overlooked.
Today, I am very, very excited to have with me Brian Payne.
Brian Payne is president and CEO, CFO.
Excuse me, I don't want to assign you a role that you don't have.
So Brian helps re-imagine how tax, finance and strategy can serve people, not just profit.
(01:18):
His passion is building ecosystem of trust, innovation and human flourishing, cultivatingcompanies and communities with intentional love, respect and purpose.
Whether it's tax strategies,
business building or spiritual vision.
His work is about creating rooted systems and bridges of belonging structures where bothpeople and organizations can thrive.
(01:46):
Brian, thank you so much for being willing and able to come on the Brave New Wealthpodcast today.
I'm really honored.
We haven't met very long ago, but I have been very, very impressed with your presence.
the way that you support our team and the whole company by always injecting positivity,especially in those most stressful times.
(02:10):
And so welcome.
What I want to ask you is if you were in an elevator and had like 20 seconds, 30 secondsto introduce yourself, how would you introduce yourself?
Well, first, thank you.
it's an honor to be here.
And you're right, we haven't known each other that long, but it's actually kind of wild,the depth at which I already feel like we've been able to connect and get to know one
(02:35):
another.
And it was so wonderful seeing you in Dallas just the other week at our sales retreat.
And it's an honor to be on here.
And I look forward to talking with you and diving into some really, hopefully, provocativeand fun topics that I hope to invite people to just...
open their minds to how they think about business and, we're going to be using art as ouranalogy for it.
(02:59):
So it should be really fun.
Elevator pitch on me is, it's funny, sometimes I lead with this.
I call myself, I'm a well-intended weirdo.
I love people.
I see the beauty in humanity and I don't always understand, but I always accept.
And then I want to find how we grow and flourish together.
(03:20):
My elevator pitch would be
I started in more of a corporate career and I was with Bank of America in their corporateinvestment, corporate treasury.
I did take the entrepreneurial plunge and found some success.
I found that I was not rooted for success and I experienced some painful failure as well.
(03:42):
And then through that journey, I got into the venture capital space more.
And really what I saw was
It just seemed like our systems and the way that we work do not, in my opinion, do notkeep the main thing the main thing.
And so I started developing uh new ways to highlight the pragmatism of love.
(04:04):
And through that, I was able to work with Dikembe Mutombo, who did unfortunately pass awayfrom a brain tumor last year.
And during that time, the brain tumor...
I was able to work with an MMA league and sports entertainment firm, which Julio investedin.
And that's how I was introduced to Julio.
(04:24):
And then last February, when the CFO position came available, I joined as the CFO.
And then the middle of last year, I was moved to the president and CFO.
And it's a pure blessing to be part of this team and to work with people like you.
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing all this.
I appreciate you opening up right at the get go.
(04:44):
And yes, it was wonderful seeing each other face to face, spending some time, quality timewhen the team came to Dallas.
I really, really appreciate that.
I think it makes such a huge difference to feel each other's energy.
And we're going to dive into business as art and all the beautiful things that we've...
(05:05):
discussed a little bit together, but before we go there, I always take this opportunity toget to know, you know, especially the people I work with on a different level.
So could you share with us maybe something that you've done lately that is outside of yourcomfort zone?
And I know you live outside of your comfort zone, but maybe something that you hadn't seenyourself do or pick up a new hobby that you thought about doing or
(05:31):
a passion that just kind of reemerged anything.
I mean, it can be from the social, physical, financial, or, you know, mental perspective,you pick.
Okay, yeah, and you are right.
I do live outside my comfort zone.
That's kind of my normal.
But a recent stretch moment was stepping in as the interim COO during tax season for ETS.
(05:55):
I was already serving as president and CFO.
And so that definitely pushed me and challenged me in new ways.
It also helped me build deeper relationships with our operations leaders and to reallyunderstand the heartbeat of the company more intimately.
in that space.
now we've welcomed Jason Dance as COO and I'm getting to uh collaborate with him.
(06:18):
And I feel far more equipped to collaborate and support Jason because I lived that rhythmfirsthand for a couple of months.
Wonderful.
Yeah, that would be definitely challenging to step in the heat of the season and we allfeel it and I'm sure you felt it too.
(06:40):
We did.
We did.
And we did it well as well.
And I think it's really due to the support we give to each other.
That is wonderful.
So another question I want to ask you is what are some of the things you do to balancewith the stress of work and finding yourself?
(07:02):
I know that balance is kind of you know, overdone work.
There's no balance.
put the energy where it's needed at the time it's needed, but what are some things thatgive you back energy and sources of strength, you know, when you need that?
Yeah, and I assure you, I'm not trying to wordsmith every question here, but one thing Ijust want to mention is I don't really pursue balance.
(07:27):
I see life as more of a beautiful spiral than a scale.
so for me, everything from work, rest, relationships, all of it, it moves in rhythm, notsymmetry.
And so instead of trying to hold things still or in balance, I try to feel which waythings are spiraling and spinning and the energy of it.
(07:48):
And then I align my energy and my time and my relationships to move with that rhythm.
And in life, in my experience, at least, it's seasonal.
So I have to keep a good pulse on it.
A couple of things on the rest side that, because that is probably the most challengingarea for me to find the time, is really around breathing and meditation.
(08:11):
Those are critical for me.
And then cold showers and then ice punch when I can.
Those are some of uh the things I do with intentionality to be able to kind of get thatrejuvenation in a pretty expeditious way.
But, you in my opinion, and it's just me, but a scale, when I was approaching my life as ascale, it demanded almost kind of a stopping or a rigidity and a spiral invites more
(08:39):
movement.
And so I kind of mentally absorb it that way, if that makes sense.
Yes, no.
I've heard the benefits.
I've done the cold ice bath after running a marathon.
But I did switch to colder showers because there is something to it, but I'm not in thehabit of doing that yet.
(09:02):
But I've heard so many good things about it, just even from a youthful perspective,energy, all the things resetting.
So I feel like I'm inching too.
Heidi does the, I think she does the ice baths in the rain.
And if you want, this is how I dip my toe in the cold shower.
(09:22):
I would take it at a, I actually prefer a hot shower, but for 10 seconds, I'll just turnthe temperature as low as I can.
I'll just stand there and just grin and bear it.
And then I went up to 15 and I worked my way up.
You can do it, but yeah, there is a little bit of that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's where it's at.
But I also know if I want to get out real quick out of the shower, I put it, you know, ascold as I can.
(09:45):
And I the shower is going to be very quick.
Yes, yes, yes.
No, that's great.
And you do a lot of things, you help a lot of people, a big organization.
And so it's important to find that time for yourself and rejuvenate.
So I'm glad you have these tools.
So I was very...
(10:06):
excited and intrigued, you know, when I read the notes a little bit about your perspectiveof business, which is very different, very innovative and brings in a lot of creativity.
I've heard you talk about co-creation a lot since we've known each other and I feel likeit's something that's very important to you and deeply rooted.
(10:28):
And so I want to delve into that a little bit more and how you see a business and what
made you pull it into the art.
Tell me more about this.
Where that stems from?
Yeah, it's kind of funny.
I don't like using this word, if I had to really be just transparent, was actually alittle twinge of jealousy.
(10:52):
My family is very artistic and musically inclined.
And I kid you not, my grandparents, my mom, my dad, all my family, they can playinstruments, they can sing, they can paint, they can draw.
Now, I had a good ear and I tried all of these things, but truly I did not have the skillset for it.
I could maybe push my way through and be decent at something, but they could just picksomething up and just strum and go.
(11:18):
And so I was like, what in the world?
Why didn't I get this artistic gene that my whole family has?
And it was during that time when I mentioned the entrepreneurial phase and then gettinginto the venture capital phase, that's when I started to first realize that, my canvas is
just different.
My art form is co-creation.
I call it co-creation because
(11:40):
It's a beautiful process.
It's very intimate, actually, if you think about it, because you're literally taking anidea.
And actually, in most of my career, it's not even my idea.
Somebody has an idea, it's ruminating in there.
And sometimes it's been like just a drawing on a napkin, if that, right?
(12:04):
And my role is to connect with you enough to where I can see your vision.
And then I start to matriculate it forward and then we have vision alignment.
And then eventually you grow that into a business.
one of the first companies I got to do this with is a company called TrueTurn.
And that was a classic drawing on a napkin.
(12:27):
Carl was formerly the LA Clippers strength and conditioning coach.
And he was telling me about this concept that he had.
He drew it and our first model was just like metal welded.
We called it the dinosaur and now it's a PGA certified product.
And that was when they kind of the light bulb went off when I was like, wow, we're now atthe Orlando PGA golf convention showing people how to use a true turn.
(12:57):
The long ball hitters really loved it by the way, because you can, it's almost like a pushup for your back.
And those guys were massive and they were just going nuts with it.
And that's when it hit me.
was like, wow, we just took an idea that had no business plan, nothing.
It didn't even have a product design yet.
And now we're a PGA certified product.
(13:18):
And that was probably really the first time it clicked with me that business isco-creation and co-creation is art because you're taking ideas and you're bringing them to
life.
And then once they're living, you get to grow them.
And now it's gotten even bigger than you ever imagined.
He's getting into the, he's not just sports anymore, he's getting into the health side aswell now.
(13:42):
And it's just beautiful when you can take somebody's idea and actualize it.
And so that was probably the first time I got to experience it.
And that's when it really clicked is we just co-created something together.
And to me that's art.
Yes, that's a beautiful perspective.
(14:04):
I want to read something that you put in your note that I want to dig a little bit moreinto.
It says, everyone sees the fruit revenue product market share, but I'm obsessed with theroots because if you don't tend the roots, the bloom won't last.
Business isn't just a system, it's a living organism.
(14:24):
It's art and leadership is how you conduct the symphony beneath the surface.
And that sounded like poetry to me.
The way you turned it and you just pull the, something that's usually seen as coal to thismoving organism.
So tell me more about that.
(14:45):
You're obsessed with the roots.
Why is that?
I think it's uh oftentimes because the...
first, thank you.
I'm glad that that resonated.
And the reason I focus so much on the root is because I think oftentimes that's the mostoverlooked.
We tend to live in a culture, and I'm not saying this on any moral pedestal or highground, but we live in a culture that focuses so much on the tree.
(15:09):
And actually, I don't even know if we focus on the tree as much as the crown.
The crown of the tree is the leaves and the sticks and the...
the beautiful part that you tend to see when you're driving by and you take notice.
Oftentimes, and it's, I think it's one of those things where it's hidden in plain sight,it's obvious, but it's not overt.
(15:33):
But while a tree is growing up, its roots are growing deeper.
to me, the reason I focus there is one, because it's overlooked, but then also two,
In my experience, the reason I believe that I failed with my early success is because Ihad focused so much on my tree and the crown of the tree notably.
(15:56):
Look at me, look at all the stuff I'm doing over here.
My roots were not ready for it.
And so then the success came and I blossomed and I got a lot bigger and I'm like, whoa,look at all my leaves.
My crown got bigger, but my roots didn't deepen with it.
And I fell over.
(16:16):
And uh I think that's true for individuals, and I think it's true for companies as well.
And so it's not that I say that in a way to trivialize the tree or the crown of the tree,but it's to redirect the focus because it just seems like most people are not putting
(16:37):
enough emphasis in their roots.
And that's why I see leadership as really conducting a symphony.
team member as an instrument, every department's an instrument.
And my role is really hopefully just to conduct it so it's a harmonious symphony.
(16:57):
And I focus first on the tap root.
That's the main root in the root system.
And then there's different layers and different roots that spawn from there.
But the tap root is critical because everything else gathers its nutrients from that taproot.
And so you need to have a good taproot, a good source, so that when you're growing, notonly up, but deep, you're growing holistically healthy.
(17:28):
And that's always my goal.
ah And so in my opinion, oh how I kind of apply that is before execution, I do focus onthe energy.
And before putting in all of the structure,
I make sure that we have the story and the story is not just a story, it's the vision,right?
(17:50):
I had to catch Carl's vision for the true turn and then we were able to grow it together.
And so when you take that approach, you guide not just processes, but people.
It's a rhythm, it's an energy.
Yes, that is a lot.
How do you pull, how do you again translate this and pull people into seeing what you seeand bringing people together?
(18:13):
Like what, what is that roots and how do you bring people to nourish it?
Because you can't do that alone.
Wonderful question.
So for me, what I do is I first have to connect with my teammates.
(18:34):
And that is more challenging in remote settings, which is ETS.
And so with ETS, I flew around the country and I met with every leader that I'm workingwith, really just to get that human connection first and get that energy going.
um I call it thrumming.
(18:56):
I want to be vibrating with you and, and resonant, right?
And so team resonance and cohesion is kind of where I start.
is built in that phase generally.
Then I, then I'd cast the vision and then a values alignment.
And, and, and last year we came together as a leadership team in December and for ETS, TGPand IPA.
(19:23):
We co-created a mission statement and all three firms use the same mission statement.
Now our how is different obviously, but we have the same mission and we have the samevalues.
And that was very intentional because we're trying to catalyze unity and then it bringsmore alignment.
And so now we all have the vision and the values of how we move forward.
(19:47):
The third phase then, I bring in that emotional and creative energy.
This part is always the most toe-tappy.
There's a lot of dancing here because, like I said, humans are beautiful and emotions arebeautiful, but they're also a little wild and volatile.
(20:09):
And creative energy, it shows itself in many different forms, and every person has adifferent creative energy in the way that they even express it.
And so that...
That's why I start with the resonance first.
So then when they come to me with their creative ideas, I'm able to interpret and catchthe vision exponentially better than if it was only during like a Zoom meeting.
(20:31):
Good luck, right?
Me personally, that just doesn't work for me.
And so I really try to stoke that emotional and creative energy.
And then the fourth, what I do then is it's clarity of contribution.
And that tends to be more where the structure and the roles, and that's where you startkind of
putting, you know, a lot of people say put the meat on the bone.
(20:52):
That clarity of contribution comes in and that's where I start to structure it.
It's like, we have all these different creative ideas.
I see it almost like a puzzle right now.
We have our different leaders are coming with new opportunities, new ideas, new ways ofcollaborating together.
How do we put it together cohesively?
Not only so it is a cohesive puzzle, but then also one that fosters collaboration andintegration.
(21:18):
I focus on integration a lot.
And that's where inspiration comes from, in my opinion.
And when you have a team of people and a company inspired and collaborating, itmultiplies.
And um the last thing I would just interject there are for the contribution, focus on joy.
(21:39):
I call it watering joy, because in my experience, joy multiplies clarity.
And so that's how I kind of bring that all together.
And at the end of that process, hopefully what you've developed, and it's never perfect,right?
I used to wait till perfection.
(22:03):
sometimes that stifled the growth, excuse me.
And so what I learned was you grow and then you let the growth of what you're blooming.
kind of almost overtake any of the things that still need to be polished off.
It outgrows it basically.
And that's why I focus on the roots because to me the roots are where the unseen becomesthe inevitable.
(22:29):
And you just create a new momentum and you get to ride that wave that you've created.
And then you stay intentional about maintaining it.
You have to steward it.
But that early phase is where you create that momentum.
and you ride that.
And then as your tree or plant, whatever fruit you're growing, as it starts to grow andproduce, you know you have a healthy root system that can sustain the growth and also the
(23:01):
storms that come.
Well, that's beautiful.
And I absolutely love the imagery because it helps putting the pieces together.
so talking about the tree, the roots, the fruits and how it all, yes, you basicallypulling from nature and putting this into a system that, you know, is sometimes seen as a
(23:22):
cold system, like a company and enterprise.
So I have three teenagers.
oh
I have to say this, like you took the word vibing to the next level, vibing, you know howthey use that word all the time?
You're like dissected it and took it to the next level.
That's beautiful.
Yeah, it's so, it is needed.
(23:43):
And some of the things that you bring could be, or actually soft skills.
And I am actually grateful that soft skills are being elevated.
as before was like, you know, we don't want to talk about that, we don't want to talkabout emotion, you boldly put, you know, even in your description, you use the word love,
(24:07):
respect and purpose.
And those are very strong words that are purpose, respect, yes, love is not alwaysassociated with, you know, it's like the thing that we're going to leave it for outside,
for church, relationship, but...
Yes, I believe in that.
I believe in that loving what you do, loving the people around you.
(24:29):
The respect is...
You said something during our retreat that basically that it's kind of the glue that holdsit, like you have to have it, otherwise, you know, nothing comes out if you don't have
those basic things.
And so to me, it's also the foundation.
Yeah, I think I use the term connective tissue.
(24:50):
Yeah, I remember.
Yes.
Yeah.
It will come back.
Because I was like, yes.
I just said, if you don't have it, know, nothing, nothing works.
And I think it was about respect.
Like you were talking about the importance of being respectful, no matter what thesituation and because conflict will arise, right?
(25:11):
We can't avoid it.
And it's how we're going to deal with it.
How we're going to deal with the conflict.
are we going to
show ourselves when that heat is on.
And even though I feel like we all know it, being reminded and constantly reminded isimportant.
Absolutely.
there's a lot I could unpack there.
(25:32):
But one thing that just resonated is on the conflict side.
I actually, I don't see conflict as something to even avoid.
Healthy conflict is good.
And that's why I focus so much on the love.
And that's why I think the roots need to be strong.
And just for a point of clarity, when I do talk about love, know, on Valentine's Day,actually, I even sent an email.
(25:56):
The love that I'm talking about is filet a love, that building love that co-creating love,family, brotherhood, kind of a citizens of humanity love, not the romantic love.
And that's where sometimes people kind of give me some odd looks when I talk about love inthe workplace.
(26:17):
I'm sure HR sometimes is getting wide-eyed Abby, like, what is he talking about?
Right.
But before
Let just put that every great product system or strategy that you grow, just my personalopinion is I needed to start with aligned people aligning in breath before blueprint.
(26:40):
so what does that mean to align in breath?
I'm not just designing roles, I'm designing resonance and I'm sharing people feel seen,safe and together.
And that's where that respect, that connective tissue is so pivotal.
Before you ever have your first diagram, chart, or anything like that, you want to havepeople that know that they're in a safe space.
(27:02):
They're seen and they're heard and they have a voice.
And then when you do grow and you continue to advance, conflict will arise.
And that's good because that means if everybody's just all thinking and saying the samething, you're getting one lens.
(27:23):
I like having different lenses and different perspectives and different ideas.
And conflict to me is a way to refine our ideas and be better.
And then it's also a way to kind of create those classic one plus one equals fivescenarios.
You take two different ideas and you put them together in a harmonious way.
(27:47):
And now it's exponentially better than just having the one.
But in my experience, if you dive into those kinds of conversations and you engage in thatconflict, but you haven't come together around love or whatever your company's values and
mission are, you're probably going to have a toxic conversation because a brilliantstrategy built on shallow roots will collapse when the storms come.
(28:19):
And the roots make sure that you're
prepared for those storms and for those conflicts.
And sometimes those conflicts aren't even internal.
You have external as well, and you have companies and competitors coming after you, macroshifts that impact you.
You never know what you're going to have to weather.
And that's why I always want to make sure that we have a strong foundation so we canweather it better together.
(28:44):
Well, thank you for that.
And I have seen this in practice, you know, it's not just wisdom shared and theoretical.
have seen it because just, just our communication, feeling very free to say, Hey, I thinkthis could change and the way you received it, because it's, you can feel the energy, you
know, people sometimes pretend that they, they like to receive feedback and you know, theytake constructive criticism, criticism, criticism well, but
(29:13):
It's not truly well received and it's not truly considered, but I have seen, I have feltpersonally that I could say, this is how I feel about this.
This is, you know, what I think could be better.
And not to say that it will be done, implemented, but just to be, to feel free enough to,to say that without, I think in a lot of organizations, people are not comfortable
(29:37):
speaking their mind and not comfortable seeing how they see things from their perspective.
So.
I'm glad that I can actually say, yeah, we've seen this in practice.
I can sense a shift.
I haven't been at ETS for very long, but there's definitely an uptake and a shift ofpositivity.
(29:57):
I don't want to say it's all you, but because it takes a lot of people, but I'm sure youhave something to do with it, for sure.
Well, thank you.
That warms my heart to hear that.
And my goal is always to create conditions where visions can emerge from a shared soil ofour team.
And one thing that I have to remind myself and others repeatedly is I have to learn toaccept without understanding.
(30:27):
Earlier in my career, I always wanted to understand before I would even accept it or evenlet it marinate in my mind, so to say.
And that limited me to really my own personal view.
Once I became a little more curious and I embraced the wonder of things, I accept it andthen I chew on it.
(30:49):
And it's so funny, sometimes I still don't end up completely understanding what they weresaying or where they're coming from.
But if I just glean a couple of golden nuggets out of that, and then we put them togetherwith some other people's thoughts and ideas, and you put it all together, it's so fun for
me to come back to the team and say, hey, these were the golden nuggets I got from you,and here's your nugget.
(31:13):
And then we put them all together, now look what we have.
And it's so fun because oftentimes jaws drop, because first they're shocked that you evenheard them.
They're like, wow, you actually were listening, right?
And then to be able to take something that they gave you,
and then integrate it with other people's thoughts and ideas to produce something evenmore than they anticipated or even envisioned in their own mind.
(31:37):
That to me, there's almost no greater joy.
It's so fun.
And then they get to be part of it.
And now the enthusiasm they have when they dive into actualizing it and making it real isfar greater.
Because now instead of me
just saying, hey, you do this because I told you to.
(31:59):
Now they're doing it because this is part of my vision.
This was part of my dream.
I had this in my mind for years and now I get to do it.
And inspired people, that's where the beauty really shines.
I love that.
I love that.
And I can't help but make a comparison with what you just said is really powerful, likeaccepting without understanding sometimes.
(32:20):
And it just reminds me also, as a parent, you do that a lot.
Like there's a lot of things your kids are going to do that you don't fully understand,but you do have to accept them and accept that they have their own vision for whatever it
is.
And eventually it unfolds.
And I...
(32:41):
I could feel those words even outside of the workplace.
It's a hard thing to do, but when you do, magic can come out of it.
That's awesome.
We're getting close to the end here, but I would like to know personally, who or what havebeen some of your greatest inspiration, whether it's a mentor, whether it's a book that
(33:06):
changed you.
What can you share with us in that regard?
I'll use a quote.
This one, this one changed my life.
It's Victor Frankel.
When he said, between stimulus and response, there is a space.
And in that space is our power to choose our response.
(33:27):
In our response lies our growth and our freedom.
And for me, first, I had to create the space.
I am emotional by nature.
And
I was reactionary and so I would react and not respond.
And so first I had to just even make room.
(33:49):
Then once I made room, I started taking inventory of what I was growing in that space.
And admittedly, Juliana, I didn't love what I was growing in that space.
And that challenged me deeply.
And that's when I became more intentional with it.
And that's actually kind of where
(34:09):
a lot of these garden principles and the nomenclature I use spawned because I just startedreally focusing on growing in that space and what am I growing?
And once I did that, everything changed.
I think it's, to me, that space is where true leadership lives.
Whether it's a business decision, a relationship like you were talking about with yourkids, things of that nature, even your own thoughts, my internal monologue, my own
(34:37):
conversation.
That pause, that space, that's where we plant our future.
And I always strive to be very intentional with that space to make sure I'm growing thefruit that I want.
That's so wonderful.
I have to say, Viktor Frankl is one of my very favorite authors, of course.
(34:59):
I I know many people, just pulled me out of some really dark times.
And still to this day, it's who and what I go to when I'm at the lowest.
And it started, and I think I read it the first time when I was 21.
And, you know, I'm...
(35:19):
double that now.
But it has, yeah, it has been such a source of strength.
So thank you for quoting him.
And interestingly enough, I heard that very quote yesterday, I was listening to yourpodcast, and that was the host, not the host, the guest's favorite quote, the one that you
just shared.
you know, so yes, yes, I'll have to tell you more later.
(35:44):
synergy.
uh
But yeah, for sure.
huh.
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I love it.
I love it.
Well, we have to end here, but I do want to challenge you or commit you to come back andhave more of these wonderful conversations.
I would love to have you again on the podcast.
I know that we have you Internet tech services, but if people want to find you or connectwith you, do you want to connect with people or have, you're kind of in a bubble right
(36:14):
now?
Cause
Sometimes I have- Whatever you want!
Yeah.
admittedly, going back to that space, I did kind of fade social media and whatnot for awhile.
I am re-engaging LinkedIn.
And so I will be, I'll send you my LinkedIn.
(36:35):
And I would love for people to connect on me there, or connect with me there, excuse me.
But yeah, that's something I'm having to resurrect.
Yes, no.
And because of course I did, you know, try to find you as soon as I joined and I'm like,well, I guess he's not there now, I will be posting this on LinkedIn.
(36:56):
So you will want to come see and maybe interact a little bit, but I don't know.
I'm feeling like maybe a book in the future or is that thought ever crossed your mind?
You know what, it's funny, Juliana, I don't know where things go from here.
actually, full transparency, I have thousands of pages that I've been writing.
(37:19):
I'm an avid writer, I love it.
And it's interesting that you mention that because times always change, but when I firststarted kind of going down this journey and I would mention it and talk like this, most
people kind of just looked at me like I had a third eye.
And so I kind of started to, honestly, you really got me here, but I started to almost puta dim on it.
(37:45):
But now it seems like maybe I just needed to grow a little more and be better prepared.
I'm not sure, but it does seem like it's resonating now with people.
And so as that continues, one, I'd love to come back for the podcast.
Thank you for having me.
Maybe a buck.
(38:06):
Yeah, no, thank you so much.
And I'm planting a seed because in my mind, I think I, you know, and it doesn't have to benow.
I know you're very busy, but a book about business as a co-creating art, I think you woulddo a really good job.
Alright, wait, we didn't even co-op.
Hey, maybe.
(38:28):
Yes, we'll talk more about books.
That's something on my...
oh Well, thank you so much, Ryan.
This was a pure joy to have you and very enlightening.
I'm excited to share this with the world and hopefully inspire a lot of leaders out therewho need different perspective on how to help their team come together.
(38:51):
I think you gave a lot of really incredible tools that...
people at Adder will be able to use.
So thank you very much.
it's my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Brave New Wealth Podcast.
I am grateful that Brian Payne, CFO at Engineering Tax Services was able to join me tohave this insightful conversation.
(39:15):
If you enjoyed it, let me know in the comments, leave a like, share with someone you thinkcould benefit from it.
And I hope to see you in the next episode.
A bientôt.
Welcome to the Brave New Wealth podcast, where we discuss wealth from a physical, mental,social and financial perspective.
I'm your host, Juliana.
Bienvenue à tout le monde.
Bienvenu à tous.
Herzlich willkommen.
Everyone is welcome here.
(00:28):
This podcast is sponsored by Engineer Tax Services, a subsidiary of Engineer Tax Advisory.
And our goal is to empower CPAs, business owners, real estate investors with education,proven strategies, and innovative strategies and expertise to help you unearth some of
(00:52):
those tax strategies that are often overlooked.
Today, I am very, very excited to have with me Brian Payne.
Brian Payne is president and CEO, CFO.
Excuse me, I don't want to assign you a role that you don't have.
So Brian helps re-imagine how tax, finance and strategy can serve people, not just profit.
(01:18):
His passion is building ecosystem of trust, innovation and human flourishing, cultivatingcompanies and communities with intentional love, respect and purpose.
Whether it's tax strategies,
business building or spiritual vision.
His work is about creating rooted systems and bridges of belonging structures where bothpeople and organizations can thrive.
(01:46):
Brian, thank you so much for being willing and able to come on the Brave New Wealthpodcast today.
I'm really honored.
We haven't met very long ago, but I have been very, very impressed with your presence.
the way that you support our team and the whole company by always injecting positivity,especially in those most stressful times.
(02:10):
And so welcome.
What I want to ask you is if you were in an elevator and had like 20 seconds, 30 secondsto introduce yourself, how would you introduce yourself?
Well, first, thank you.
it's an honor to be here.
And you're right, we haven't known each other that long, but it's actually kind of wild,the depth at which I already feel like we've been able to connect and get to know one
(02:35):
another.
And it was so wonderful seeing you in Dallas just the other week at our sales retreat.
And it's an honor to be on here.
And I look forward to talking with you and diving into some really, hopefully, provocativeand fun topics that I hope to invite people to just...
open their minds to how they think about business and, we're going to be using art as ouranalogy for it.
(02:59):
So it should be really fun.
Elevator pitch on me is, it's funny, sometimes I lead with this.
I call myself, I'm a well-intended weirdo.
I love people.
I see the beauty in humanity and I don't always understand, but I always accept.
And then I want to find how we grow and flourish together.
(03:20):
My elevator pitch would be
I started in more of a corporate career and I was with Bank of America in their corporateinvestment, corporate treasury.
I did take the entrepreneurial plunge and found some success.
I found that I was not rooted for success and I experienced some painful failure as well.
(03:42):
And then through that journey, I got into the venture capital space more.
And really what I saw was
It just seemed like our systems and the way that we work do not, in my opinion, do notkeep the main thing the main thing.
And so I started developing uh new ways to highlight the pragmatism of love.
(04:04):
And through that, I was able to work with Dikembe Mutombo, who did unfortunately pass awayfrom a brain tumor last year.
And during that time, the brain tumor...
I was able to work with an MMA league and sports entertainment firm, which Julio investedin.
And that's how I was introduced to Julio.
(04:24):
And then last February, when the CFO position came available, I joined as the CFO.
And then the middle of last year, I was moved to the president and CFO.
And it's a pure blessing to be part of this team and to work with people like you.
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing all this.
I appreciate you opening up right at the get go.
(04:44):
And yes, it was wonderful seeing each other face to face, spending some time, quality timewhen the team came to Dallas.
I really, really appreciate that.
I think it makes such a huge difference to feel each other's energy.
And we're going to dive into business as art and all the beautiful things that we've...
(05:05):
discussed a little bit together, but before we go there, I always take this opportunity toget to know, you know, especially the people I work with on a different level.
So could you share with us maybe something that you've done lately that is outside of yourcomfort zone?
And I know you live outside of your comfort zone, but maybe something that you hadn't seenyourself do or pick up a new hobby that you thought about doing or
(05:31):
a passion that just kind of reemerged anything.
I mean, it can be from the social, physical, financial, or, you know, mental perspective,you pick.
Okay, yeah, and you are right.
I do live outside my comfort zone.
That's kind of my normal.
But a recent stretch moment was stepping in as the interim COO during tax season for ETS.
(05:55):
I was already serving as president and CFO.
And so that definitely pushed me and challenged me in new ways.
It also helped me build deeper relationships with our operations leaders and to reallyunderstand the heartbeat of the company more intimately.
in that space.
now we've welcomed Jason Dance as COO and I'm getting to uh collaborate with him.
(06:18):
And I feel far more equipped to collaborate and support Jason because I lived that rhythmfirsthand for a couple of months.
Wonderful.
Yeah, that would be definitely challenging to step in the heat of the season and we allfeel it and I'm sure you felt it too.
(06:40):
We did.
We did.
And we did it well as well.
And I think it's really due to the support we give to each other.
That is wonderful.
So another question I want to ask you is what are some of the things you do to balancewith the stress of work and finding yourself?
(07:02):
I know that balance is kind of you know, overdone work.
There's no balance.
put the energy where it's needed at the time it's needed, but what are some things thatgive you back energy and sources of strength, you know, when you need that?
Yeah, and I assure you, I'm not trying to wordsmith every question here, but one thing Ijust want to mention is I don't really pursue balance.
(07:27):
I see life as more of a beautiful spiral than a scale.
so for me, everything from work, rest, relationships, all of it, it moves in rhythm, notsymmetry.
And so instead of trying to hold things still or in balance, I try to feel which waythings are spiraling and spinning and the energy of it.
(07:48):
And then I align my energy and my time and my relationships to move with that rhythm.
And in life, in my experience, at least, it's seasonal.
So I have to keep a good pulse on it.
A couple of things on the rest side that, because that is probably the most challengingarea for me to find the time, is really around breathing and meditation.
(08:11):
Those are critical for me.
And then cold showers and then ice punch when I can.
Those are some of uh the things I do with intentionality to be able to kind of get thatrejuvenation in a pretty expeditious way.
But, you in my opinion, and it's just me, but a scale, when I was approaching my life as ascale, it demanded almost kind of a stopping or a rigidity and a spiral invites more
(08:39):
movement.
And so I kind of mentally absorb it that way, if that makes sense.
Yes, no.
I've heard the benefits.
I've done the cold ice bath after running a marathon.
But I did switch to colder showers because there is something to it, but I'm not in thehabit of doing that yet.
(09:02):
But I've heard so many good things about it, just even from a youthful perspective,energy, all the things resetting.
So I feel like I'm inching too.
Heidi does the, I think she does the ice baths in the rain.
And if you want, this is how I dip my toe in the cold shower.
(09:22):
I would take it at a, I actually prefer a hot shower, but for 10 seconds, I'll just turnthe temperature as low as I can.
I'll just stand there and just grin and bear it.
And then I went up to 15 and I worked my way up.
You can do it, but yeah, there is a little bit of that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's where it's at.
But I also know if I want to get out real quick out of the shower, I put it, you know, ascold as I can.
(09:45):
And I the shower is going to be very quick.
Yes, yes, yes.
No, that's great.
And you do a lot of things, you help a lot of people, a big organization.
And so it's important to find that time for yourself and rejuvenate.
So I'm glad you have these tools.
So I was very...
(10:06):
excited and intrigued, you know, when I read the notes a little bit about your perspectiveof business, which is very different, very innovative and brings in a lot of creativity.
I've heard you talk about co-creation a lot since we've known each other and I feel likeit's something that's very important to you and deeply rooted.
(10:28):
And so I want to delve into that a little bit more and how you see a business and what
made you pull it into the art.
Tell me more about this.
Where that stems from?
Yeah, it's kind of funny.
I don't like using this word, if I had to really be just transparent, was actually alittle twinge of jealousy.
(10:52):
My family is very artistic and musically inclined.
And I kid you not, my grandparents, my mom, my dad, all my family, they can playinstruments, they can sing, they can paint, they can draw.
Now, I had a good ear and I tried all of these things, but truly I did not have the skillset for it.
I could maybe push my way through and be decent at something, but they could just picksomething up and just strum and go.
(11:18):
And so I was like, what in the world?
Why didn't I get this artistic gene that my whole family has?
And it was during that time when I mentioned the entrepreneurial phase and then gettinginto the venture capital phase, that's when I started to first realize that, my canvas is
just different.
My art form is co-creation.
I call it co-creation because
(11:40):
It's a beautiful process.
It's very intimate, actually, if you think about it, because you're literally taking anidea.
And actually, in most of my career, it's not even my idea.
Somebody has an idea, it's ruminating in there.
And sometimes it's been like just a drawing on a napkin, if that, right?
(12:04):
And my role is to connect with you enough to where I can see your vision.
And then I start to matriculate it forward and then we have vision alignment.
And then eventually you grow that into a business.
one of the first companies I got to do this with is a company called TrueTurn.
And that was a classic drawing on a napkin.
(12:27):
Carl was formerly the LA Clippers strength and conditioning coach.
And he was telling me about this concept that he had.
He drew it and our first model was just like metal welded.
We called it the dinosaur and now it's a PGA certified product.
And that was when they kind of the light bulb went off when I was like, wow, we're now atthe Orlando PGA golf convention showing people how to use a true turn.
(12:57):
The long ball hitters really loved it by the way, because you can, it's almost like a pushup for your back.
And those guys were massive and they were just going nuts with it.
And that's when it hit me.
was like, wow, we just took an idea that had no business plan, nothing.
It didn't even have a product design yet.
And now we're a PGA certified product.
(13:18):
And that was probably really the first time it clicked with me that business isco-creation and co-creation is art because you're taking ideas and you're bringing them to
life.
And then once they're living, you get to grow them.
And now it's gotten even bigger than you ever imagined.
He's getting into the, he's not just sports anymore, he's getting into the health side aswell now.
(13:42):
And it's just beautiful when you can take somebody's idea and actualize it.
And so that was probably the first time I got to experience it.
And that's when it really clicked is we just co-created something together.
And to me that's art.
Yes, that's a beautiful perspective.
(14:04):
I want to read something that you put in your note that I want to dig a little bit moreinto.
It says, everyone sees the fruit revenue product market share, but I'm obsessed with theroots because if you don't tend the roots, the bloom won't last.
Business isn't just a system, it's a living organism.
(14:24):
It's art and leadership is how you conduct the symphony beneath the surface.
And that sounded like poetry to me.
The way you turned it and you just pull the, something that's usually seen as coal to thismoving organism.
So tell me more about that.
(14:45):
You're obsessed with the roots.
Why is that?
I think it's uh oftentimes because the...
first, thank you.
I'm glad that that resonated.
And the reason I focus so much on the root is because I think oftentimes that's the mostoverlooked.
We tend to live in a culture, and I'm not saying this on any moral pedestal or highground, but we live in a culture that focuses so much on the tree.
(15:09):
And actually, I don't even know if we focus on the tree as much as the crown.
The crown of the tree is the leaves and the sticks and the...
the beautiful part that you tend to see when you're driving by and you take notice.
Oftentimes, and it's, I think it's one of those things where it's hidden in plain sight,it's obvious, but it's not overt.
(15:33):
But while a tree is growing up, its roots are growing deeper.
to me, the reason I focus there is one, because it's overlooked, but then also two,
In my experience, the reason I believe that I failed with my early success is because Ihad focused so much on my tree and the crown of the tree notably.
(15:56):
Look at me, look at all the stuff I'm doing over here.
My roots were not ready for it.
And so then the success came and I blossomed and I got a lot bigger and I'm like, whoa,look at all my leaves.
My crown got bigger, but my roots didn't deepen with it.
And I fell over.
(16:16):
And uh I think that's true for individuals, and I think it's true for companies as well.
And so it's not that I say that in a way to trivialize the tree or the crown of the tree,but it's to redirect the focus because it just seems like most people are not putting
(16:37):
enough emphasis in their roots.
And that's why I see leadership as really conducting a symphony.
team member as an instrument, every department's an instrument.
And my role is really hopefully just to conduct it so it's a harmonious symphony.
(16:57):
And I focus first on the tap root.
That's the main root in the root system.
And then there's different layers and different roots that spawn from there.
But the tap root is critical because everything else gathers its nutrients from that taproot.
And so you need to have a good taproot, a good source, so that when you're growing, notonly up, but deep, you're growing holistically healthy.
(17:28):
And that's always my goal.
ah And so in my opinion, oh how I kind of apply that is before execution, I do focus onthe energy.
And before putting in all of the structure,
I make sure that we have the story and the story is not just a story, it's the vision,right?
(17:50):
I had to catch Carl's vision for the true turn and then we were able to grow it together.
And so when you take that approach, you guide not just processes, but people.
It's a rhythm, it's an energy.
Yes, that is a lot.
How do you pull, how do you again translate this and pull people into seeing what you seeand bringing people together?
(18:13):
Like what, what is that roots and how do you bring people to nourish it?
Because you can't do that alone.
Wonderful question.
So for me, what I do is I first have to connect with my teammates.
(18:34):
And that is more challenging in remote settings, which is ETS.
And so with ETS, I flew around the country and I met with every leader that I'm workingwith, really just to get that human connection first and get that energy going.
um I call it thrumming.
(18:56):
I want to be vibrating with you and, and resonant, right?
And so team resonance and cohesion is kind of where I start.
is built in that phase generally.
Then I, then I'd cast the vision and then a values alignment.
And, and, and last year we came together as a leadership team in December and for ETS, TGPand IPA.
(19:23):
We co-created a mission statement and all three firms use the same mission statement.
Now our how is different obviously, but we have the same mission and we have the samevalues.
And that was very intentional because we're trying to catalyze unity and then it bringsmore alignment.
And so now we all have the vision and the values of how we move forward.
(19:47):
The third phase then, I bring in that emotional and creative energy.
This part is always the most toe-tappy.
There's a lot of dancing here because, like I said, humans are beautiful and emotions arebeautiful, but they're also a little wild and volatile.
(20:09):
And creative energy, it shows itself in many different forms, and every person has adifferent creative energy in the way that they even express it.
And so that...
That's why I start with the resonance first.
So then when they come to me with their creative ideas, I'm able to interpret and catchthe vision exponentially better than if it was only during like a Zoom meeting.
(20:31):
Good luck, right?
Me personally, that just doesn't work for me.
And so I really try to stoke that emotional and creative energy.
And then the fourth, what I do then is it's clarity of contribution.
And that tends to be more where the structure and the roles, and that's where you startkind of
putting, you know, a lot of people say put the meat on the bone.
(20:52):
That clarity of contribution comes in and that's where I start to structure it.
It's like, we have all these different creative ideas.
I see it almost like a puzzle right now.
We have our different leaders are coming with new opportunities, new ideas, new ways ofcollaborating together.
How do we put it together cohesively?
Not only so it is a cohesive puzzle, but then also one that fosters collaboration andintegration.
(21:18):
I focus on integration a lot.
And that's where inspiration comes from, in my opinion.
And when you have a team of people and a company inspired and collaborating, itmultiplies.
And um the last thing I would just interject there are for the contribution, focus on joy.
(21:39):
I call it watering joy, because in my experience, joy multiplies clarity.
And so that's how I kind of bring that all together.
And at the end of that process, hopefully what you've developed, and it's never perfect,right?
I used to wait till perfection.
(22:03):
sometimes that stifled the growth, excuse me.
And so what I learned was you grow and then you let the growth of what you're blooming.
kind of almost overtake any of the things that still need to be polished off.
It outgrows it basically.
And that's why I focus on the roots because to me the roots are where the unseen becomesthe inevitable.
(22:29):
And you just create a new momentum and you get to ride that wave that you've created.
And then you stay intentional about maintaining it.
You have to steward it.
But that early phase is where you create that momentum.
and you ride that.
And then as your tree or plant, whatever fruit you're growing, as it starts to grow andproduce, you know you have a healthy root system that can sustain the growth and also the
(23:01):
storms that come.
Well, that's beautiful.
And I absolutely love the imagery because it helps putting the pieces together.
so talking about the tree, the roots, the fruits and how it all, yes, you basicallypulling from nature and putting this into a system that, you know, is sometimes seen as a
(23:22):
cold system, like a company and enterprise.
So I have three teenagers.
oh
I have to say this, like you took the word vibing to the next level, vibing, you know howthey use that word all the time?
You're like dissected it and took it to the next level.
That's beautiful.
Yeah, it's so, it is needed.
(23:43):
And some of the things that you bring could be, or actually soft skills.
And I am actually grateful that soft skills are being elevated.
as before was like, you know, we don't want to talk about that, we don't want to talkabout emotion, you boldly put, you know, even in your description, you use the word love,
(24:07):
respect and purpose.
And those are very strong words that are purpose, respect, yes, love is not alwaysassociated with, you know, it's like the thing that we're going to leave it for outside,
for church, relationship, but...
Yes, I believe in that.
I believe in that loving what you do, loving the people around you.
(24:29):
The respect is...
You said something during our retreat that basically that it's kind of the glue that holdsit, like you have to have it, otherwise, you know, nothing comes out if you don't have
those basic things.
And so to me, it's also the foundation.
Yeah, I think I use the term connective tissue.
(24:50):
Yeah, I remember.
Yes.
Yeah.
It will come back.
Because I was like, yes.
I just said, if you don't have it, know, nothing, nothing works.
And I think it was about respect.
Like you were talking about the importance of being respectful, no matter what thesituation and because conflict will arise, right?
(25:11):
We can't avoid it.
And it's how we're going to deal with it.
How we're going to deal with the conflict.
are we going to
show ourselves when that heat is on.
And even though I feel like we all know it, being reminded and constantly reminded isimportant.
Absolutely.
there's a lot I could unpack there.
(25:32):
But one thing that just resonated is on the conflict side.
I actually, I don't see conflict as something to even avoid.
Healthy conflict is good.
And that's why I focus so much on the love.
And that's why I think the roots need to be strong.
And just for a point of clarity, when I do talk about love, know, on Valentine's Day,actually, I even sent an email.
(25:56):
The love that I'm talking about is filet a love, that building love that co-creating love,family, brotherhood, kind of a citizens of humanity love, not the romantic love.
And that's where sometimes people kind of give me some odd looks when I talk about love inthe workplace.
(26:17):
I'm sure HR sometimes is getting wide-eyed Abby, like, what is he talking about?
Right.
But before
Let just put that every great product system or strategy that you grow, just my personalopinion is I needed to start with aligned people aligning in breath before blueprint.
(26:40):
so what does that mean to align in breath?
I'm not just designing roles, I'm designing resonance and I'm sharing people feel seen,safe and together.
And that's where that respect, that connective tissue is so pivotal.
Before you ever have your first diagram, chart, or anything like that, you want to havepeople that know that they're in a safe space.
(27:02):
They're seen and they're heard and they have a voice.
And then when you do grow and you continue to advance, conflict will arise.
And that's good because that means if everybody's just all thinking and saying the samething, you're getting one lens.
(27:23):
I like having different lenses and different perspectives and different ideas.
And conflict to me is a way to refine our ideas and be better.
And then it's also a way to kind of create those classic one plus one equals fivescenarios.
You take two different ideas and you put them together in a harmonious way.
(27:47):
And now it's exponentially better than just having the one.
But in my experience, if you dive into those kinds of conversations and you engage in thatconflict, but you haven't come together around love or whatever your company's values and
mission are, you're probably going to have a toxic conversation because a brilliantstrategy built on shallow roots will collapse when the storms come.
(28:19):
And the roots make sure that you're
prepared for those storms and for those conflicts.
And sometimes those conflicts aren't even internal.
You have external as well, and you have companies and competitors coming after you, macroshifts that impact you.
You never know what you're going to have to weather.
And that's why I always want to make sure that we have a strong foundation so we canweather it better together.
(28:44):
Well, thank you for that.
And I have seen this in practice, you know, it's not just wisdom shared and theoretical.
have seen it because just, just our communication, feeling very free to say, Hey, I thinkthis could change and the way you received it, because it's, you can feel the energy, you
know, people sometimes pretend that they, they like to receive feedback and you know, theytake constructive criticism, criticism, criticism well, but
(29:13):
It's not truly well received and it's not truly considered, but I have seen, I have feltpersonally that I could say, this is how I feel about this.
This is, you know, what I think could be better.
And not to say that it will be done, implemented, but just to be, to feel free enough to,to say that without, I think in a lot of organizations, people are not comfortable
(29:37):
speaking their mind and not comfortable seeing how they see things from their perspective.
So.
I'm glad that I can actually say, yeah, we've seen this in practice.
I can sense a shift.
I haven't been at ETS for very long, but there's definitely an uptake and a shift ofpositivity.
(29:57):
I don't want to say it's all you, but because it takes a lot of people, but I'm sure youhave something to do with it, for sure.
Well, thank you.
That warms my heart to hear that.
And my goal is always to create conditions where visions can emerge from a shared soil ofour team.
And one thing that I have to remind myself and others repeatedly is I have to learn toaccept without understanding.
(30:27):
Earlier in my career, I always wanted to understand before I would even accept it or evenlet it marinate in my mind, so to say.
And that limited me to really my own personal view.
Once I became a little more curious and I embraced the wonder of things, I accept it andthen I chew on it.
(30:49):
And it's so funny, sometimes I still don't end up completely understanding what they weresaying or where they're coming from.
But if I just glean a couple of golden nuggets out of that, and then we put them togetherwith some other people's thoughts and ideas, and you put it all together, it's so fun for
me to come back to the team and say, hey, these were the golden nuggets I got from you,and here's your nugget.
(31:13):
And then we put them all together, now look what we have.
And it's so fun because oftentimes jaws drop, because first they're shocked that you evenheard them.
They're like, wow, you actually were listening, right?
And then to be able to take something that they gave you,
and then integrate it with other people's thoughts and ideas to produce something evenmore than they anticipated or even envisioned in their own mind.
(31:37):
That to me, there's almost no greater joy.
It's so fun.
And then they get to be part of it.
And now the enthusiasm they have when they dive into actualizing it and making it real isfar greater.
Because now instead of me
just saying, hey, you do this because I told you to.
(31:59):
Now they're doing it because this is part of my vision.
This was part of my dream.
I had this in my mind for years and now I get to do it.
And inspired people, that's where the beauty really shines.
I love that.
I love that.
And I can't help but make a comparison with what you just said is really powerful, likeaccepting without understanding sometimes.
(32:20):
And it just reminds me also, as a parent, you do that a lot.
Like there's a lot of things your kids are going to do that you don't fully understand,but you do have to accept them and accept that they have their own vision for whatever it
is.
And eventually it unfolds.
And I...
(32:41):
I could feel those words even outside of the workplace.
It's a hard thing to do, but when you do, magic can come out of it.
That's awesome.
We're getting close to the end here, but I would like to know personally, who or what havebeen some of your greatest inspiration, whether it's a mentor, whether it's a book that
(33:06):
changed you.
What can you share with us in that regard?
I'll use a quote.
This one, this one changed my life.
It's Victor Frankel.
When he said, between stimulus and response, there is a space.
And in that space is our power to choose our response.
(33:27):
In our response lies our growth and our freedom.
And for me, first, I had to create the space.
I am emotional by nature.
And
I was reactionary and so I would react and not respond.
And so first I had to just even make room.
(33:49):
Then once I made room, I started taking inventory of what I was growing in that space.
And admittedly, Juliana, I didn't love what I was growing in that space.
And that challenged me deeply.
And that's when I became more intentional with it.
And that's actually kind of where
(34:09):
a lot of these garden principles and the nomenclature I use spawned because I just startedreally focusing on growing in that space and what am I growing?
And once I did that, everything changed.
I think it's, to me, that space is where true leadership lives.
Whether it's a business decision, a relationship like you were talking about with yourkids, things of that nature, even your own thoughts, my internal monologue, my own
(34:37):
conversation.
That pause, that space, that's where we plant our future.
And I always strive to be very intentional with that space to make sure I'm growing thefruit that I want.
That's so wonderful.
I have to say, Viktor Frankl is one of my very favorite authors, of course.
(34:59):
I I know many people, just pulled me out of some really dark times.
And still to this day, it's who and what I go to when I'm at the lowest.
And it started, and I think I read it the first time when I was 21.
And, you know, I'm...
(35:19):
double that now.
But it has, yeah, it has been such a source of strength.
So thank you for quoting him.
And interestingly enough, I heard that very quote yesterday, I was listening to yourpodcast, and that was the host, not the host, the guest's favorite quote, the one that you
just shared.
you know, so yes, yes, I'll have to tell you more later.
(35:44):
synergy.
uh
But yeah, for sure.
huh.
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I love it.
I love it.
Well, we have to end here, but I do want to challenge you or commit you to come back andhave more of these wonderful conversations.
I would love to have you again on the podcast.
I know that we have you Internet tech services, but if people want to find you or connectwith you, do you want to connect with people or have, you're kind of in a bubble right
(36:14):
now?
Cause
Sometimes I have- Whatever you want!
Yeah.
admittedly, going back to that space, I did kind of fade social media and whatnot for awhile.
I am re-engaging LinkedIn.
And so I will be, I'll send you my LinkedIn.
(36:35):
And I would love for people to connect on me there, or connect with me there, excuse me.
But yeah, that's something I'm having to resurrect.
Yes, no.
And because of course I did, you know, try to find you as soon as I joined and I'm like,well, I guess he's not there now, I will be posting this on LinkedIn.
(36:56):
So you will want to come see and maybe interact a little bit, but I don't know.
I'm feeling like maybe a book in the future or is that thought ever crossed your mind?
You know what, it's funny, Juliana, I don't know where things go from here.
actually, full transparency, I have thousands of pages that I've been writing.
(37:19):
I'm an avid writer, I love it.
And it's interesting that you mention that because times always change, but when I firststarted kind of going down this journey and I would mention it and talk like this, most
people kind of just looked at me like I had a third eye.
And so I kind of started to, honestly, you really got me here, but I started to almost puta dim on it.
(37:45):
But now it seems like maybe I just needed to grow a little more and be better prepared.
I'm not sure, but it does seem like it's resonating now with people.
And so as that continues, one, I'd love to come back for the podcast.
Thank you for having me.
Maybe a buck.
(38:06):
Yeah, no, thank you so much.
And I'm planting a seed because in my mind, I think I, you know, and it doesn't have to benow.
I know you're very busy, but a book about business as a co-creating art, I think you woulddo a really good job.
Alright, wait, we didn't even co-op.
Hey, maybe.
(38:28):
Yes, we'll talk more about books.
That's something on my...
oh Well, thank you so much, Ryan.
This was a pure joy to have you and very enlightening.
I'm excited to share this with the world and hopefully inspire a lot of leaders out therewho need different perspective on how to help their team come together.
(38:51):
I think you gave a lot of really incredible tools that...
people at Adder will be able to use.
So thank you very much.
it's my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Brave New Wealth Podcast.
I am grateful that Brian Payne, CFO at Engineering Tax Services was able to join me tohave this insightful conversation.
(39:15):
If you enjoyed it, let me know in the comments, leave a like, share with someone you thinkcould benefit from it.
And I hope to see you in the next episode.
A bientôt.
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