Following on from Ep 43: Introduction to Climate Change, in this episode we look more closely at how teachers, school leaders and learners can nurture sustainability education in their school.
Our host for this episode is Head of Thought Leadership at Cambridge, Paul Ellis. He is joined by special guest, Dr Mona Chiriac.
Mona is an educational consultant, international lead trainer and online tutor. With over 20 years' experience working in the UK and internationally in various capacities, Mona’s keen interest is in sustainability education and in enhancing students’ learning power through effective teaching and learning strategies.
Show notes:
Mona's webinar at the Cambridge Schools Conference - https://us06web.zoom.us/rec/play/7Z-831_40Gt9JDxTWx-9BXSUgxBMxNwuZOKLa1UcT2dDDSqGNKmeL7xuSeBoF-WTFswm6tFEgqLStcU_.HBYi8YqFMnvF9kSm?canPlayFromShare=true&from=share_recording_detail&continueMode=true&componentName=rec-play&originRequestUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fus06web.zoom.us%2Frec%2Fshare%2F6SYCr7BmY2KC0XDW3n5ebolJHo8hSWpogZ5C3osqN66BzXoApfex-7S2m-o1D95p.TJT287LY7pgU_WJN
Ep 43: Introduction to Climate Change Education - https://www.cambridge.org/education/blog/2024/04/17/brighter-thinking-pod-ep-43-introduction-to-climate-change-education/
Cambridge Introudction to Climate Change paper - https://www.cambridgeinternational.org/why-choose-us/benefits-of-a-cambridge-education/climate-change-education/
Climate change education survey - https://cambridge.welcomesyourfeedback.net/s/tmmmin
Cambridge X (Twitter) - https://twitter.com/CambridgeInt
Cambridge Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/cambridgeint/
Full podcast transcript and guest info on Brighter Thinking Blog - https://www.cambridge.org/education/blog/brighter-thinking-pod-ep-44-cultivating-green-shoots
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome to our latest episode of the
(00:02):
Brighter Thinking Pod from the International
Education group of Cambridge University Press and
Assessment. I'm your host for this episode. My
name is Paul Ellis and I'm head of thought
leadership at Cambridge. We
created our Brighter Thinking Podcast to support
teachers and school leaders around the world. Each
episode brings you helpful advice and
(00:25):
interesting conversation from authors,
teachers and academics.
Following on from our episode, Introduction
to Climate Change Education, in this
episode, we are going to look more closely at
practical guidance for how teachers,
school leaders and learners can nurture
sustainability education in their school.
(00:48):
Remember, all the links and information that we discuss
today are available in the show notes for your
ease and if you would like to get your voice
heard on the show, you can get in touch on X
formally, Twitter, or Instagram at
CambridgeINT
(01:16):
okay, let's meet our guest.
Today I am joined by Dr Mona
Chiriac. Mona is an
educational consultant, international lead
trainer and online tutor. She is also
an examiner for AS and A Level geography
and other IGCSE subjects including Global
Perspectives. Mona has a
(01:36):
master's in leading teaching and learning and was
awarded a Summa cum Laude for her
PhD thesis on geographies of
sustainability education. With over
20 years experience working in the UK and
internationally in various capacities, Mona's
keen interest is in sustainability education
and in enhancing students learning power through
(01:58):
effective teaching and learning strategies.
Welcome, Mona.
Thank you. Thank you very much for having me here.
Great to have you here. Thanks very much for joining us today.
Before we start to talk specifically about climate change and
sustainability education, can you tell us what
inspired you and continues to inspire you to be a
geographer?
(02:20):
What inspired me initially?
Yeah.
Oh, it starts with a love story, I'm afraid.
My boyfriend at that time, husband, currently
was, very good in geography. So I thought that would be the way to
get, his attention. But that goes back
many years ago. but my husband is no longer
in geography. But I am. So, I guess,
(02:40):
what keeps you going is the relevancy of
geography is the fact that
I can't see how you live in this world
without knowing the physical
aspects, the human aspects, the interaction between
them, the,
connectivity, the interdependencies.
I think it opens up your eyes to the.
(03:02):
To the beauty of where you live,
but also now more relevant to what we're going to discuss
today, the fragility of it.
so it's constantly changing, and it's
constantly relevant. So I think that's what kept
me in there, and the discussions with teachers,
with people passionate in the field Yeah,
(03:23):
I don't think you go into studying geography,
maybe you may go accidentally into it, but I
don't think you stay in it just by accident. I
think you stay with it because it just, helps you
develop a passion.
(03:45):
In our previous episodes on climate change education with
Christina Ozden, our global director for climate
change education at Cambridge, we outlined the
key principles that underpin climate change and sustainability
education.
Why do you think that high quality education in
particular is key to tackling the climate
crisis?
I think that it's this very
(04:06):
diversity of places and locations and
how different educational systems see their role in
society that actually defines what good
education is. So, for
example, there are still educational systems that
see, knowledge and developing an
encyclopaedic mind as being the aim of education.
(04:26):
I no longer align. I grew up in that system, but I no
longer align with that system because I think education is, of course,
far more than this. And here in this institution, we think that education
is far more than this. So if education is
about, preparing,
our young for the future, well,
climate change is the main challenge,
(04:46):
right? That That is affecting us and that will affect us. So,
therefore, connecting a
high quality education with
discussions about climate change and sustainability,
with causes, with, effects, with
impacts, with solutions, with
involvement, with caring about
it, well, they go hand in hand because you can't
(05:07):
prepare students for the future unless you
prepare them for this; one of the most challenging things that
we're dealing with at the moment. And we will continue to deal with.
So that's potentially the first immediate
link. but the other one would probably be the fact
that, schools, they tell us what's important,
they immediately transmit to students, this
(05:28):
is important to talk about. So if we ignore
climate change and sustainability education
in schools, then it's like almost
explicitly telling and passing on the message that this
is not important, this is not relevant.
so I don't see how good quality education
would ignore a discussion,
(05:48):
on climate change and sustainability.
And it's also about when we talk about
preparing students to be
in the world and for the future, it's this
idea that the future is what we
create, what we create now. And
remember, we had that webinar a week
ago for the Cambridge schools conference. I was
(06:10):
talking there about the fact that we don't land
into the future unexpectedly. We build the
future now. So we can't delay
the discussion about climate change and sustainability
education in schools, because what we work
today on is what the future will look like.
So to me it's important to make those links.
(06:31):
I'm also drawn into this by, and I really
admire Gert Biesta's work. He
talks about the fact that maybe the role of education,
the purpose of education is to
create time and space
and opportunities, for
students to live
in the world and with the world
(06:54):
in a 'grown up way'. That's how he defines it. And
he defines 'grown up way' as, a,
way of being no longer just at the
centre of everything, but living, as I
said earlier, in and with the world,
therefore having this responsibility, and
no longer being self centred
(07:14):
and self focused. It's
about what he says, not taking the world
for granted as if it's there
for us, as if it's there at our
disposal to do with it whatever we want.
So good education is to
me a place that actually creates that space
(07:35):
and time and allows, as
Gert Biesta says, opportunities for
students to develop this 'grown
upness', as he calls it. And I really link to
that, I align very much with that type
of thing.
Yeah. The work of Biesta is well worth exploring isn't it? And so
you're talking then not only about knowledge, you're very much talking about
(07:55):
skills, attitudes, competencies
as well?
Definitely, definitely. And it's one of
the, things that transpire in research
around climate change and sustainability education. It's
that, well, for a very long time,
schools have no longer been just about knowledge. They have been
about skills and about developing these,
(08:15):
skills that make us then live in the world. So
skills are not just overlooked, they are very
important skills to just communicate
about something in a fluent manner, in a coherent manner,
in a convincing way. We talk about not just
communication, but also about collaboration.
we talk about working together rather
(08:35):
than in competition, one way or the other, because that's
what's human part of us needs
communication, collaboration and community.
Absolutely.
It's in this co words and other words,
how to get on with each other, but also how to create dialogues
with other people, perhaps.
Yes, and that's part of developing those skills. But it's also
about what do I take out of it. So take research, right, we mentioned
(08:57):
what do I take out of it? what is relevant,
what is not, what is biassed, what
comes with a hidden agenda in the
messages. And we can't just assume that students would
know where they are from. I don't know. I learned research
when I was at university. That was the first time
I was asked to do a piece of research. Whereas there's no
(09:17):
longer, okay, these skills can be taught much,
much earlier. And yes, of course, maybe it's, Some
people would say that. Isn't it a bit too pretentious to say that you're
teaching a five year old research? Well, yes,
but there's the elements of
research, right. Which is about where do you get your information
from? It's about how do you know it's trustworthy
and what type of information are you going to use in order
(09:39):
to make your case? How are you going to
communicate verbally, non verbally?
How do you become convincing in your argument? And that can
be taught from much, much earlier on without me having to wait to
be 20 something at university and my professor having
to tell me. And what do you think? And I was
like, I don't know, but I can tell you everything that
Piaget thinks, and I can tell you everything that Vygotsky
(10:01):
thought. Okay, but what do you think?
I don't know because nobody has ever asked me before
what I thought about something. So, yes, it's good. Quality
education is about bringing that to the forefront so we
don't have to wait for it.
So it's all of those things scaffolding education
throughout, from an early age all the way upwards. And we keep learning as
well, of course.
Absolutely.
(10:22):
Let's have a, think about what schools themselves then
could do. If they want to introduce climate change and
sustainability education, what should they first be focusing on?
They can't focus on everything, of course, because if they're starting
out, that's too much. It's just basic and
obvious to say that. What should be their guiding principles if
they're starting out with climate change and sustainability
education?
(10:42):
Yes, but there's a lot of research in
schools and climate education and sustainability in
schools. And I think, of course, like in every
academic world and research world, there are pros and
cons for something. But it seems to me that
everybody seems to be in agreement that it needs
a whole school approach, first and foremost. And though
(11:02):
this has been said for a very long time now, and it is
not something that's new,
unfortunately, if it
permeated school levels, I believe it only permeated
at a level of curriculum integration. If, and even
in those places, there might still be confusions between
climate change or sustainability education and environmental
education, and there's still confusion around these terms.
(11:25):
So. But what we're advocating
for and in the research world, what they're advocating
for is a whole school approach
whereby climate change and sustainability
education is not just at the level of the curriculum, but at the
level of governance, at the level of
practises, at the level of partnerships
that the school develops. so it's literally
(11:47):
infusing the school community
with this. so the work of Stephen
Sterling comes to mind. he extensively wrote about
this and about the need for schools
not to be just subjects of
change, but agents of change.
So it is not just enough for schools
(12:08):
to change the way they
operate, but it's about how they then
go beyond the school's gate and promote
sustainability and climate change education
and their involvement with the rest of the
community. and there are these. So
the first approach or guiding principle
would be this whole, ah, school approach that's also
(12:29):
recommended by UNESCO and other
researchers in the field. but yes, there are
other, principles.
you've been talking there about the sense of the collective sense
of responsibility in a school for everybody to get
involved and ways of immersing all
learners, all staff in the experience. Can you tell
us a bit more about why that's important?
(12:50):
Well, I believe it's important because remember those,
years when every teacher was a literacy teacher and
every, through every subject we had to teach
numeracy? And, I believed in those because
I think. Yes, that's right. Well, actually, it's
time for sustainability and climate change education because it's
not just the responsibility of the geography
teacher, because they know about the, you know,
(13:13):
the physical and the human
intersection. And, it is the
responsibility of absolutely every single one of us
to discuss. It's as if I would tell a
maths teacher that it's your business to teach
my geography students how to read bar
graphs. Well, it's not because I teach
those numerical skills in geography as well. Well,
(13:34):
equally, the mathematician, the maths
teacher would have to find ways to relate their
subject to sustainability because
it's for everyone, it's not just
in certain subjects.
So you could say it's both interdisciplinary and
multidisciplinary in approach. Multidisciplinary in that you've got to
have people within their subject areas teaching what they need to teach and
(13:55):
getting through the curriculum, etcetera. But interdisciplinary because
as you're describing there, it goes across different subject
areas and is part of how life is
outside school as well.
Well, I think that's what it is. I think multidisciplinary
approach is a very good one, because it adds
depth to it. And,
I believe that education is
(14:16):
about research based, strong founded
knowledge. Don't get me wrong, it is
very important. it's not,
skills or knowledge. We don't divorce those two. We shouldn't
divorce those two. So knowledge is important. I believe
a multidisciplinary approach, adds
the depth and the detail and the strong,
(14:36):
solid foundation to really understand
the mechanisms of
sustainability issues or of climate change.
well, clearly a science teacher, you know, or a geography
teacher, they have a lot of depth, but equally, the
mathematics teacher or the biology
teacher, they can add a lot of depth to it.
(14:57):
So strong, multidisciplinary, but.
And to me, this is important.
The world out there is not in
boxes, right? So it's not, this is, today, just about
the earth. And when you step out this door is going to be just about your
mathematical skills. The world doesn't function like this. The world
is in interconnected and interdependent.
(15:19):
And if we just keep to boxes, we
don't really emulate what happens outside, so we
don't mirror the reality of our world, and the
reality is not boxed.
So I strongly believe in an
interdisciplinary approach, or at least creating
opportunities for students to have
exposure to interdisciplinary approaches
(15:40):
in teaching or in learning about climate
change and sustainability education, because
otherwise, I think we jeopardise the real.
What it means. We don't actually teach
what's out there, and I believe it's important that we're
believable. I think we lose credibility.
It's applicable to the real world.
Absolutely. Yes. Yes. So, yes, interdisciplinary
(16:02):
is also very important aspect.
Thank you.
teachers are busy people. they've got lots to get from their curriculum.
Can you say that again?
Teachers are busy people! I repeat that benefit our listeners.
They absolutely are. so they've got plenty on their plate, they've got plenty
to get through in their curriculum. Now, increasingly
here at Cambridge, we're making sure that climate change issues
come into the curriculum. But how can we make sure that
(16:23):
teachers don't feel overloaded? But also, how can
they bring climate change and sustainability
education more broadly into their teaching and also into how they
eventually assess students as well?
I think the first step, potentially, is for them
to, To find out
more, to, read more about
(16:44):
it, to, strengthen their own
understanding of climate change and
sustainability education. I believe there are still
strong misconceptions, in, what it
means. I believe, it's still, in
many respects, mistaken for
environmental management looking
after the environment, which I think
(17:06):
this is just a tiny little component of what sustainability education
is about. So, first of all is
getting a strong understanding of what it is. And we
can't blame the teachers. As you said, they're very busy, but they're also
maybe sustainability education was surely not part of
their teacher training, of the debate that went on
in school at that time when they were there.
(17:27):
So they have to keep up with what's going on.
and then once this is done, I believe it's important,
as I said earlier, that every teacher sees themselves as a
sustainability teacher, not just in their own little
boxes. So maybe the second step would be
to, okay, if this is important and we
recognise that this is important, how can I, through
(17:47):
my subject, expose students
to, sustainability education or to issues that have
to do with climate change or with sustainability?
And every single subject has something
to do with it, because our lives, every single
aspect of our lives has something to do with
it. it's just a matter of staying there,
reflecting and thinking, how
(18:09):
can my subject deliver this?
So it's finding the opportunities, making the obvious connections.
Absolutely. And sometimes not just the obvious, even the
hidden ones that they need to come out to the
surface. yes. And
then once you recognise, and if you get to the point,
and hopefully you do get to the point where you see
that, yes, your subject is relevant and you can
(18:30):
approach sustainability issues and climate change issues
through your subject, is, then the next step would probably be
to say, okay, but let me just do an audit. And I've
read a lot of research about schools that have
started audits. and now we're talking just
about subject, right? Because I already talked about whole
school approach, but audits of okay,
(18:51):
let's say English in this text. Could I interpret
this text in a way that sustainability issues
come across? Can that be? Or can I find new
texts, talk about cli -fi, right, a
climate fiction, text. Could I add new
text that would put students in a way
of understanding, sustainability
better or at least engaging with the
(19:13):
debate. so auditing their
current situation in their schools, in their
subjects, auditing their resources and
just start small. I mean, I know that there are other people
there who advocate for huge, ginormous change
and revolutionary change. I don't
think that will happen. So I go by a step by step
approach just because I think there's also
(19:35):
value in actually seeing what you've got
and use that, yes,
to look at climate change and sustainability.
And of course, students themselves will be making those connections, won't they?
Because they're very well aware. They're perhaps more aware than we might give
them credit for sometimes outside the classroom. So they'll come in perhaps
from another subject saying, oh, yeah, we spoke about that in such and such a
(19:56):
subject that makes clear connections, what we're
now talking about in this lesson, doesn't it?
Absolutely. And it's about this coherence. We're talking about students
coming from another subject, getting to your subject. But if
we work in isolation, me in my geography
classroom, you in your french classroom
or another classroom, and think about the message
that these students are getting. It's as if, right,
(20:20):
the verb is important here, and you
have to learn how to create sentences, you know,
grammatically accurate in here. But when you go to geography,
what is important is about learning about
settlements. But then they're getting
this boxed information
of things that are relevant. But as an
alternative, talking about sustainability in French,
(20:42):
I move from French to geography. Oh, there you go.
Sustainability is also an issue. And then you go, an issue to discuss,
I mean, and then you go to mathematics, and I'm
learning how to do this and look at data, climate data,
and interpret patterns, do statistical analysis
or predictions that are to do with changes in
temperature or whatever. So all of a sudden we have
this coherent message about things that are
(21:05):
important. so, yes, I believe that teachers can
do a lot, not just into their own little box, but
actually opening the discussion with one, with another departments,
with other departments, and creating a coherent message
that sends this message of how important this is.
Okay, but not forced connections, natural connections, as
we're saying there, of course. So staying with the students as well.
(21:25):
Now, a lot of surveys and research suggest that children are, keen
to take climate change action, but they also get
quite anxious in thinking about the global problem.
So something which is bigger than them and
therefore what they can personally do about it. So how do
you think that school is going to help young people navigate the
complex issues that we're talking about here?
(21:46):
I think the global is indeed overwhelming,
right? Because it's like, what can I do about
it? So way back, I think it must have been,
2005,
2006 I was teaching as and a
level students, and I was teaching about
climate change. But I think at that time, it had nothing to do
(22:06):
with sustainability, right? At that time it was just about the mechanisms of
it. But, I had a student, and she
sticks to my mind even to this day. Alice.
And, when teaching about this
and when teaching about strategies and
mitigation and solutions. Her response
way back then was, but Miss, what do you
want me to do about this? This is so
(22:29):
big. And she was so disheartened, and I
felt guilty and I did not know what the answer was
at that time because, she felt overwhelmed
with, with the responsibility of it.
So what can students do about it? I
think the most important part is
to make sure that they are accurately informed
(22:49):
and for us as adults to make sure that the
information gets to them
accurately and age appropriately. I, think it would
be overwhelming for my eight year
old to know everything I know
about the mechanisms of climate change. So that
would be one way of staying informed and
for us to just guide
(23:11):
them through that process. but encourage
the dialogue and encourage the discussion,
because I think, again, we are more scared of things that we don't
discuss. It's, we don't know what it
is, and if we don't know what it is and everybody shushes about it and
doesn't talk about it, it creates more anxiety. But if we create
space to discuss, create space to express
(23:32):
those feelings, you might say
anxiety or sometimes
anger, then we can negotiate them and we can
deal with them, differently.
it's also about raising this, having
opportunities to see that your actions
matter and their actions do matter.
but we also have, unfortunately, people, who are
(23:53):
jaded about it. So people who, don't believe in
it, people who, bring in their own
beliefs and conflicts. and I believe
we need to openly discuss,
consider our role as teacher. Is it, to pass
on our fears or is it to help students
navigate their world? how about we create
(24:14):
opportunities for those emotions to come out, in
our subjects? to write something
about your emotions in art, to
create a piece of art, a sculpture, a painting,
in music, to write a song, rap it, do
something that is an avenue to express your feelings about it.
What I'm most afraid about is actually
(24:34):
not the anxiety, because that's what I'm
mostly dreading, is
the disconnect from it. and in my
research, I found out that if my students,
the ones that I interviewed and the ones that I worked with,
they no longer placed climate
change of something that is of interest to
them, they placed other things of sustainability.
(24:57):
So I'm worried more about the fact that
if we don't create those avenues, if we don't allow
space for the discussion, then they will disconnect from
it. And I think disconnection is far worse,
than the other ones. And yes, potentially in
schools we can actually have mental health
services or counselling on these issues
(25:18):
because they are important and we shouldn't overlook or
downplay their importance.
So it takes us back to those guiding principles where we started and having
whole school approach collectors sense of responsibility, making sure that
people have those opportunities, the space, the right kind of
environment to pardon the pun, where people really can
and then talk about what they need to in this area. They can get the knowledge,
get the skills, get the tools.
but we can also showcase them. Examples
(25:40):
of positive ways of
being engaged. And there are out there
so many examples of schools of
young, people who have achieved something in their work
towards climate change or raising awareness
or so getting them
involved. And you might argue like what can a five year
(26:01):
old, what kind of agency does a five year old have? But actually,
you know, if they grow up caring, if they
grow up with empathy, if they grow up
doing things, tiny little things, I appreciate a five year
old cannot do a lot. But if they grow
up in projects that, where they see the
community involved, when they see that their role matters, when they
(26:21):
see that they're voice is heard and they
are involved, then they will become these
agents, of change, exposing them to
stories of success and creating
opportunities for them to have their own success stories.
I think this is something that we can do for young, children
or young adults so that they are involved in
(26:42):
this. Two nights ago
we were at this restaurant in Kenya. we were having dinner.
there were these two children and one saw, an insect.
I don't even know what it was. I think it was bigger than a cricket. It was something, I call it
a cricket, but I don't think it was. But anyway, so this child
has the thing to go look at that
insect and then really wanted to stamp on it.
(27:03):
I just observed how the dad
took action then and said, hold on a minute, why do you want
to stamp on it? This is a creature. What
does it do to you? Shouldn't we allow them? I don't
think it's a good idea. And it's just those tiny little
things of actually accepting and understanding that we're
not the centre of the world, that the non human
(27:23):
is so important to our living as
well. And this is not, as I said, this is not done at
20. This is done when you're a three year old and you want to crush an
insect. So yes, children can get involved in a lot of
ways and we should create opportunities for them.
Wonderful. That's a good note to end on, really.
if schools, teachers, young people want to know more,
where would you recommend they go to find more information? If
(27:46):
they're either wanting to understand more about
what climate change is, or to
research particular aspects of climate change and sustainability
education, what, in your experience, are good places to go
to?
Well, I think it depends on who these people
are and what their role and what their aim and purpose
is. So maybe a good place to start would be our
(28:07):
climate change education webpage,
because it has an introduction paper, and it's a
really good way to start into
this debate. It also has a survey
through which we engage teachers to,
engage in this debate. We care about what people say and we care
about what they say, not just here in the UK, but we have
(28:27):
this avenue, which is an amazing avenue to actually take into
consideration this global aspect. We were
talking about global earlier. but if not through, that
would be, I think, accessible.
these UNESCO. UNESCO documents are very accessible,
and they have a lot of things, even from
sort of leadership, teaching and learning
(28:47):
classroom, strategies for, climate
change and for sustainability.
M if
you are more into it and you're thinking, I'm a researcher, I want to know
more about it, then clearly your way to go would be
journals. And they are. There are special journals
dedicated to sustainability or to sustainability
(29:07):
education, so they can be accessed. And trust me, the
moment you get there, then you see, an article
that doesn't it?
Yeah.
And then the other one goes. And then the other goes. There are also
books. I remember before I started my PhD, I could barely
get my hands on something to
read. Now, I need to have
a selection of things because there are so much out
(29:29):
there. So. Yes, there are a lot of
resources. It's a matter of
doing it in such a way so it doesn't overwhelm you, because it
can overwhelm you. So, take it slowly, but at
least definitely, get engaged, with this
debate.
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Mona.
Pleasure.
(29:49):
So that's all we've got time for in this episode. thanks so much for being
such a fantastic guest and sharing so many really
useful insights. We've scratched the surface, it feels, but at the same
time, we've covered a lot, I think, in this
episode. So if you'd like to find out
more about what Cambridge is doing to support climate change
education, you can visit the dedicated pages on
(30:09):
our website, as Mona mentioned, and read the guides
and other information we have placed there, and we'll continue to
do as well. And you can also view a recording of the breakout session
that Mona facilitated for our recent online
schools conference in March 2024. So you can
find your way to that on our website as well.
Don't forget to tell your friends and colleagues all about us, and rate
our show on whatever platform you're listening on. our show notes have
(30:32):
lots of useful links, including those that Mona, has mentioned in this
episode, so be sure to take a look at those as well. If
you want to follow up on some of those. You can also follow us
on X and on Instagram at, Cambridge
Int. So thank you for listening and we hope you
will join us again soon. Goodbye.
Hello and welcome to our latest episode of the
(00:02):
Brighter Thinking Pod from the International
Education group of Cambridge University Press and
Assessment. I'm your host for this episode. My
name is Paul Ellis and I'm head of thought
leadership at Cambridge. We
created our Brighter Thinking Podcast to support
teachers and school leaders around the world. Each
episode brings you helpful advice and
(00:25):
interesting conversation from authors,
teachers and academics.
Following on from our episode, Introduction
to Climate Change Education, in this
episode, we are going to look more closely at
practical guidance for how teachers,
school leaders and learners can nurture
sustainability education in their school.
(00:48):
Remember, all the links and information that we discuss
today are available in the show notes for your
ease and if you would like to get your voice
heard on the show, you can get in touch on X
formally, Twitter, or Instagram at
CambridgeINT
(01:16):
okay, let's meet our guest.
Today I am joined by Dr Mona
Chiriac. Mona is an
educational consultant, international lead
trainer and online tutor. She is also
an examiner for AS and A Level geography
and other IGCSE subjects including Global
Perspectives. Mona has a
(01:36):
master's in leading teaching and learning and was
awarded a Summa cum Laude for her
PhD thesis on geographies of
sustainability education. With over
20 years experience working in the UK and
internationally in various capacities, Mona's
keen interest is in sustainability education
and in enhancing students learning power through
(01:58):
effective teaching and learning strategies.
Welcome, Mona.
Thank you. Thank you very much for having me here.
Great to have you here. Thanks very much for joining us today.
Before we start to talk specifically about climate change and
sustainability education, can you tell us what
inspired you and continues to inspire you to be a
geographer?
(02:20):
What inspired me initially?
Yeah.
Oh, it starts with a love story, I'm afraid.
My boyfriend at that time, husband, currently
was, very good in geography. So I thought that would be the way to
get, his attention. But that goes back
many years ago. but my husband is no longer
in geography. But I am. So, I guess,
(02:40):
what keeps you going is the relevancy of
geography is the fact that
I can't see how you live in this world
without knowing the physical
aspects, the human aspects, the interaction between
them, the,
connectivity, the interdependencies.
I think it opens up your eyes to the.
(03:02):
To the beauty of where you live,
but also now more relevant to what we're going to discuss
today, the fragility of it.
so it's constantly changing, and it's
constantly relevant. So I think that's what kept
me in there, and the discussions with teachers,
with people passionate in the field Yeah,
(03:23):
I don't think you go into studying geography,
maybe you may go accidentally into it, but I
don't think you stay in it just by accident. I
think you stay with it because it just, helps you
develop a passion.
(03:45):
In our previous episodes on climate change education with
Christina Ozden, our global director for climate
change education at Cambridge, we outlined the
key principles that underpin climate change and sustainability
education.
Why do you think that high quality education in
particular is key to tackling the climate
crisis?
I think that it's this very
(04:06):
diversity of places and locations and
how different educational systems see their role in
society that actually defines what good
education is. So, for
example, there are still educational systems that
see, knowledge and developing an
encyclopaedic mind as being the aim of education.
(04:26):
I no longer align. I grew up in that system, but I no
longer align with that system because I think education is, of course,
far more than this. And here in this institution, we think that education
is far more than this. So if education is
about, preparing,
our young for the future, well,
climate change is the main challenge,
(04:46):
right? That That is affecting us and that will affect us. So,
therefore, connecting a
high quality education with
discussions about climate change and sustainability,
with causes, with, effects, with
impacts, with solutions, with
involvement, with caring about
it, well, they go hand in hand because you can't
(05:07):
prepare students for the future unless you
prepare them for this; one of the most challenging things that
we're dealing with at the moment. And we will continue to deal with.
So that's potentially the first immediate
link. but the other one would probably be the fact
that, schools, they tell us what's important,
they immediately transmit to students, this
(05:28):
is important to talk about. So if we ignore
climate change and sustainability education
in schools, then it's like almost
explicitly telling and passing on the message that this
is not important, this is not relevant.
so I don't see how good quality education
would ignore a discussion,
(05:48):
on climate change and sustainability.
And it's also about when we talk about
preparing students to be
in the world and for the future, it's this
idea that the future is what we
create, what we create now. And
remember, we had that webinar a week
ago for the Cambridge schools conference. I was
(06:10):
talking there about the fact that we don't land
into the future unexpectedly. We build the
future now. So we can't delay
the discussion about climate change and sustainability
education in schools, because what we work
today on is what the future will look like.
So to me it's important to make those links.
(06:31):
I'm also drawn into this by, and I really
admire Gert Biesta's work. He
talks about the fact that maybe the role of education,
the purpose of education is to
create time and space
and opportunities, for
students to live
in the world and with the world
(06:54):
in a 'grown up way'. That's how he defines it. And
he defines 'grown up way' as, a,
way of being no longer just at the
centre of everything, but living, as I
said earlier, in and with the world,
therefore having this responsibility, and
no longer being self centred
(07:14):
and self focused. It's
about what he says, not taking the world
for granted as if it's there
for us, as if it's there at our
disposal to do with it whatever we want.
So good education is to
me a place that actually creates that space
(07:35):
and time and allows, as
Gert Biesta says, opportunities for
students to develop this 'grown
upness', as he calls it. And I really link to
that, I align very much with that type
of thing.
Yeah. The work of Biesta is well worth exploring isn't it? And so
you're talking then not only about knowledge, you're very much talking about
(07:55):
skills, attitudes, competencies
as well?
Definitely, definitely. And it's one of
the, things that transpire in research
around climate change and sustainability education. It's
that, well, for a very long time,
schools have no longer been just about knowledge. They have been
about skills and about developing these,
(08:15):
skills that make us then live in the world. So
skills are not just overlooked, they are very
important skills to just communicate
about something in a fluent manner, in a coherent manner,
in a convincing way. We talk about not just
communication, but also about collaboration.
we talk about working together rather
(08:35):
than in competition, one way or the other, because that's
what's human part of us needs
communication, collaboration and community.
Absolutely.
It's in this co words and other words,
how to get on with each other, but also how to create dialogues
with other people, perhaps.
Yes, and that's part of developing those skills. But it's also
about what do I take out of it. So take research, right, we mentioned
(08:57):
what do I take out of it? what is relevant,
what is not, what is biassed, what
comes with a hidden agenda in the
messages. And we can't just assume that students would
know where they are from. I don't know. I learned research
when I was at university. That was the first time
I was asked to do a piece of research. Whereas there's no
(09:17):
longer, okay, these skills can be taught much,
much earlier. And yes, of course, maybe it's, Some
people would say that. Isn't it a bit too pretentious to say that you're
teaching a five year old research? Well, yes,
but there's the elements of
research, right. Which is about where do you get your information
from? It's about how do you know it's trustworthy
and what type of information are you going to use in order
(09:39):
to make your case? How are you going to
communicate verbally, non verbally?
How do you become convincing in your argument? And that can
be taught from much, much earlier on without me having to wait to
be 20 something at university and my professor having
to tell me. And what do you think? And I was
like, I don't know, but I can tell you everything that
Piaget thinks, and I can tell you everything that Vygotsky
(10:01):
thought. Okay, but what do you think?
I don't know because nobody has ever asked me before
what I thought about something. So, yes, it's good. Quality
education is about bringing that to the forefront so we
don't have to wait for it.
So it's all of those things scaffolding education
throughout, from an early age all the way upwards. And we keep learning as
well, of course.
Absolutely.
(10:22):
Let's have a, think about what schools themselves then
could do. If they want to introduce climate change and
sustainability education, what should they first be focusing on?
They can't focus on everything, of course, because if they're starting
out, that's too much. It's just basic and
obvious to say that. What should be their guiding principles if
they're starting out with climate change and sustainability
education?
(10:42):
Yes, but there's a lot of research in
schools and climate education and sustainability in
schools. And I think, of course, like in every
academic world and research world, there are pros and
cons for something. But it seems to me that
everybody seems to be in agreement that it needs
a whole school approach, first and foremost. And though
(11:02):
this has been said for a very long time now, and it is
not something that's new,
unfortunately, if it
permeated school levels, I believe it only permeated
at a level of curriculum integration. If, and even
in those places, there might still be confusions between
climate change or sustainability education and environmental
education, and there's still confusion around these terms.
(11:25):
So. But what we're advocating
for and in the research world, what they're advocating
for is a whole school approach
whereby climate change and sustainability
education is not just at the level of the curriculum, but at the
level of governance, at the level of
practises, at the level of partnerships
that the school develops. so it's literally
(11:47):
infusing the school community
with this. so the work of Stephen
Sterling comes to mind. he extensively wrote about
this and about the need for schools
not to be just subjects of
change, but agents of change.
So it is not just enough for schools
(12:08):
to change the way they
operate, but it's about how they then
go beyond the school's gate and promote
sustainability and climate change education
and their involvement with the rest of the
community. and there are these. So
the first approach or guiding principle
would be this whole, ah, school approach that's also
(12:29):
recommended by UNESCO and other
researchers in the field. but yes, there are
other, principles.
you've been talking there about the sense of the collective sense
of responsibility in a school for everybody to get
involved and ways of immersing all
learners, all staff in the experience. Can you tell
us a bit more about why that's important?
(12:50):
Well, I believe it's important because remember those,
years when every teacher was a literacy teacher and
every, through every subject we had to teach
numeracy? And, I believed in those because
I think. Yes, that's right. Well, actually, it's
time for sustainability and climate change education because it's
not just the responsibility of the geography
teacher, because they know about the, you know,
(13:13):
the physical and the human
intersection. And, it is the
responsibility of absolutely every single one of us
to discuss. It's as if I would tell a
maths teacher that it's your business to teach
my geography students how to read bar
graphs. Well, it's not because I teach
those numerical skills in geography as well. Well,
(13:34):
equally, the mathematician, the maths
teacher would have to find ways to relate their
subject to sustainability because
it's for everyone, it's not just
in certain subjects.
So you could say it's both interdisciplinary and
multidisciplinary in approach. Multidisciplinary in that you've got to
have people within their subject areas teaching what they need to teach and
(13:55):
getting through the curriculum, etcetera. But interdisciplinary because
as you're describing there, it goes across different subject
areas and is part of how life is
outside school as well.
Well, I think that's what it is. I think multidisciplinary
approach is a very good one, because it adds
depth to it. And,
I believe that education is
(14:16):
about research based, strong founded
knowledge. Don't get me wrong, it is
very important. it's not,
skills or knowledge. We don't divorce those two. We shouldn't
divorce those two. So knowledge is important. I believe
a multidisciplinary approach, adds
the depth and the detail and the strong,
(14:36):
solid foundation to really understand
the mechanisms of
sustainability issues or of climate change.
well, clearly a science teacher, you know, or a geography
teacher, they have a lot of depth, but equally, the
mathematics teacher or the biology
teacher, they can add a lot of depth to it.
(14:57):
So strong, multidisciplinary, but.
And to me, this is important.
The world out there is not in
boxes, right? So it's not, this is, today, just about
the earth. And when you step out this door is going to be just about your
mathematical skills. The world doesn't function like this. The world
is in interconnected and interdependent.
(15:19):
And if we just keep to boxes, we
don't really emulate what happens outside, so we
don't mirror the reality of our world, and the
reality is not boxed.
So I strongly believe in an
interdisciplinary approach, or at least creating
opportunities for students to have
exposure to interdisciplinary approaches
(15:40):
in teaching or in learning about climate
change and sustainability education, because
otherwise, I think we jeopardise the real.
What it means. We don't actually teach
what's out there, and I believe it's important that we're
believable. I think we lose credibility.
It's applicable to the real world.
Absolutely. Yes. Yes. So, yes, interdisciplinary
(16:02):
is also very important aspect.
Thank you.
teachers are busy people. they've got lots to get from their curriculum.
Can you say that again?
Teachers are busy people! I repeat that benefit our listeners.
They absolutely are. so they've got plenty on their plate, they've got plenty
to get through in their curriculum. Now, increasingly
here at Cambridge, we're making sure that climate change issues
come into the curriculum. But how can we make sure that
(16:23):
teachers don't feel overloaded? But also, how can
they bring climate change and sustainability
education more broadly into their teaching and also into how they
eventually assess students as well?
I think the first step, potentially, is for them
to, To find out
more, to, read more about
(16:44):
it, to, strengthen their own
understanding of climate change and
sustainability education. I believe there are still
strong misconceptions, in, what it
means. I believe, it's still, in
many respects, mistaken for
environmental management looking
after the environment, which I think
(17:06):
this is just a tiny little component of what sustainability education
is about. So, first of all is
getting a strong understanding of what it is. And we
can't blame the teachers. As you said, they're very busy, but they're also
maybe sustainability education was surely not part of
their teacher training, of the debate that went on
in school at that time when they were there.
(17:27):
So they have to keep up with what's going on.
and then once this is done, I believe it's important,
as I said earlier, that every teacher sees themselves as a
sustainability teacher, not just in their own little
boxes. So maybe the second step would be
to, okay, if this is important and we
recognise that this is important, how can I, through
(17:47):
my subject, expose students
to, sustainability education or to issues that have
to do with climate change or with sustainability?
And every single subject has something
to do with it, because our lives, every single
aspect of our lives has something to do with
it. it's just a matter of staying there,
reflecting and thinking, how
(18:09):
can my subject deliver this?
So it's finding the opportunities, making the obvious connections.
Absolutely. And sometimes not just the obvious, even the
hidden ones that they need to come out to the
surface. yes. And
then once you recognise, and if you get to the point,
and hopefully you do get to the point where you see
that, yes, your subject is relevant and you can
(18:30):
approach sustainability issues and climate change issues
through your subject, is, then the next step would probably be
to say, okay, but let me just do an audit. And I've
read a lot of research about schools that have
started audits. and now we're talking just
about subject, right? Because I already talked about whole
school approach, but audits of okay,
(18:51):
let's say English in this text. Could I interpret
this text in a way that sustainability issues
come across? Can that be? Or can I find new
texts, talk about cli -fi, right, a
climate fiction, text. Could I add new
text that would put students in a way
of understanding, sustainability
better or at least engaging with the
(19:13):
debate. so auditing their
current situation in their schools, in their
subjects, auditing their resources and
just start small. I mean, I know that there are other people
there who advocate for huge, ginormous change
and revolutionary change. I don't
think that will happen. So I go by a step by step
approach just because I think there's also
(19:35):
value in actually seeing what you've got
and use that, yes,
to look at climate change and sustainability.
And of course, students themselves will be making those connections, won't they?
Because they're very well aware. They're perhaps more aware than we might give
them credit for sometimes outside the classroom. So they'll come in perhaps
from another subject saying, oh, yeah, we spoke about that in such and such a
(19:56):
subject that makes clear connections, what we're
now talking about in this lesson, doesn't it?
Absolutely. And it's about this coherence. We're talking about students
coming from another subject, getting to your subject. But if
we work in isolation, me in my geography
classroom, you in your french classroom
or another classroom, and think about the message
that these students are getting. It's as if, right,
(20:20):
the verb is important here, and you
have to learn how to create sentences, you know,
grammatically accurate in here. But when you go to geography,
what is important is about learning about
settlements. But then they're getting
this boxed information
of things that are relevant. But as an
alternative, talking about sustainability in French,
(20:42):
I move from French to geography. Oh, there you go.
Sustainability is also an issue. And then you go, an issue to discuss,
I mean, and then you go to mathematics, and I'm
learning how to do this and look at data, climate data,
and interpret patterns, do statistical analysis
or predictions that are to do with changes in
temperature or whatever. So all of a sudden we have
this coherent message about things that are
(21:05):
important. so, yes, I believe that teachers can
do a lot, not just into their own little box, but
actually opening the discussion with one, with another departments,
with other departments, and creating a coherent message
that sends this message of how important this is.
Okay, but not forced connections, natural connections, as
we're saying there, of course. So staying with the students as well.
(21:25):
Now, a lot of surveys and research suggest that children are, keen
to take climate change action, but they also get
quite anxious in thinking about the global problem.
So something which is bigger than them and
therefore what they can personally do about it. So how do
you think that school is going to help young people navigate the
complex issues that we're talking about here?
(21:46):
I think the global is indeed overwhelming,
right? Because it's like, what can I do about
it? So way back, I think it must have been,
2005,
2006 I was teaching as and a
level students, and I was teaching about
climate change. But I think at that time, it had nothing to do
(22:06):
with sustainability, right? At that time it was just about the mechanisms of
it. But, I had a student, and she
sticks to my mind even to this day. Alice.
And, when teaching about this
and when teaching about strategies and
mitigation and solutions. Her response
way back then was, but Miss, what do you
want me to do about this? This is so
(22:29):
big. And she was so disheartened, and I
felt guilty and I did not know what the answer was
at that time because, she felt overwhelmed
with, with the responsibility of it.
So what can students do about it? I
think the most important part is
to make sure that they are accurately informed
(22:49):
and for us as adults to make sure that the
information gets to them
accurately and age appropriately. I, think it would
be overwhelming for my eight year
old to know everything I know
about the mechanisms of climate change. So that
would be one way of staying informed and
for us to just guide
(23:11):
them through that process. but encourage
the dialogue and encourage the discussion,
because I think, again, we are more scared of things that we don't
discuss. It's, we don't know what it
is, and if we don't know what it is and everybody shushes about it and
doesn't talk about it, it creates more anxiety. But if we create
space to discuss, create space to express
(23:32):
those feelings, you might say
anxiety or sometimes
anger, then we can negotiate them and we can
deal with them, differently.
it's also about raising this, having
opportunities to see that your actions
matter and their actions do matter.
but we also have, unfortunately, people, who are
(23:53):
jaded about it. So people who, don't believe in
it, people who, bring in their own
beliefs and conflicts. and I believe
we need to openly discuss,
consider our role as teacher. Is it, to pass
on our fears or is it to help students
navigate their world? how about we create
(24:14):
opportunities for those emotions to come out, in
our subjects? to write something
about your emotions in art, to
create a piece of art, a sculpture, a painting,
in music, to write a song, rap it, do
something that is an avenue to express your feelings about it.
What I'm most afraid about is actually
(24:34):
not the anxiety, because that's what I'm
mostly dreading, is
the disconnect from it. and in my
research, I found out that if my students,
the ones that I interviewed and the ones that I worked with,
they no longer placed climate
change of something that is of interest to
them, they placed other things of sustainability.
(24:57):
So I'm worried more about the fact that
if we don't create those avenues, if we don't allow
space for the discussion, then they will disconnect from
it. And I think disconnection is far worse,
than the other ones. And yes, potentially in
schools we can actually have mental health
services or counselling on these issues
(25:18):
because they are important and we shouldn't overlook or
downplay their importance.
So it takes us back to those guiding principles where we started and having
whole school approach collectors sense of responsibility, making sure that
people have those opportunities, the space, the right kind of
environment to pardon the pun, where people really can
and then talk about what they need to in this area. They can get the knowledge,
get the skills, get the tools.
but we can also showcase them. Examples
(25:40):
of positive ways of
being engaged. And there are out there
so many examples of schools of
young, people who have achieved something in their work
towards climate change or raising awareness
or so getting them
involved. And you might argue like what can a five year
(26:01):
old, what kind of agency does a five year old have? But actually,
you know, if they grow up caring, if they
grow up with empathy, if they grow up
doing things, tiny little things, I appreciate a five year
old cannot do a lot. But if they grow
up in projects that, where they see the
community involved, when they see that their role matters, when they
(26:21):
see that they're voice is heard and they
are involved, then they will become these
agents, of change, exposing them to
stories of success and creating
opportunities for them to have their own success stories.
I think this is something that we can do for young, children
or young adults so that they are involved in
(26:42):
this. Two nights ago
we were at this restaurant in Kenya. we were having dinner.
there were these two children and one saw, an insect.
I don't even know what it was. I think it was bigger than a cricket. It was something, I call it
a cricket, but I don't think it was. But anyway, so this child
has the thing to go look at that
insect and then really wanted to stamp on it.
(27:03):
I just observed how the dad
took action then and said, hold on a minute, why do you want
to stamp on it? This is a creature. What
does it do to you? Shouldn't we allow them? I don't
think it's a good idea. And it's just those tiny little
things of actually accepting and understanding that we're
not the centre of the world, that the non human
(27:23):
is so important to our living as
well. And this is not, as I said, this is not done at
20. This is done when you're a three year old and you want to crush an
insect. So yes, children can get involved in a lot of
ways and we should create opportunities for them.
Wonderful. That's a good note to end on, really.
if schools, teachers, young people want to know more,
where would you recommend they go to find more information? If
(27:46):
they're either wanting to understand more about
what climate change is, or to
research particular aspects of climate change and sustainability
education, what, in your experience, are good places to go
to?
Well, I think it depends on who these people
are and what their role and what their aim and purpose
is. So maybe a good place to start would be our
(28:07):
climate change education webpage,
because it has an introduction paper, and it's a
really good way to start into
this debate. It also has a survey
through which we engage teachers to,
engage in this debate. We care about what people say and we care
about what they say, not just here in the UK, but we have
(28:27):
this avenue, which is an amazing avenue to actually take into
consideration this global aspect. We were
talking about global earlier. but if not through, that
would be, I think, accessible.
these UNESCO. UNESCO documents are very accessible,
and they have a lot of things, even from
sort of leadership, teaching and learning
(28:47):
classroom, strategies for, climate
change and for sustainability.
M if
you are more into it and you're thinking, I'm a researcher, I want to know
more about it, then clearly your way to go would be
journals. And they are. There are special journals
dedicated to sustainability or to sustainability
(29:07):
education, so they can be accessed. And trust me, the
moment you get there, then you see, an article
that doesn't it?
Yeah.
And then the other one goes. And then the other goes. There are also
books. I remember before I started my PhD, I could barely
get my hands on something to
read. Now, I need to have
a selection of things because there are so much out
(29:29):
there. So. Yes, there are a lot of
resources. It's a matter of
doing it in such a way so it doesn't overwhelm you, because it
can overwhelm you. So, take it slowly, but at
least definitely, get engaged, with this
debate.
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Mona.
Pleasure.
(29:49):
So that's all we've got time for in this episode. thanks so much for being
such a fantastic guest and sharing so many really
useful insights. We've scratched the surface, it feels, but at the same
time, we've covered a lot, I think, in this
episode. So if you'd like to find out
more about what Cambridge is doing to support climate change
education, you can visit the dedicated pages on
(30:09):
our website, as Mona mentioned, and read the guides
and other information we have placed there, and we'll continue to
do as well. And you can also view a recording of the breakout session
that Mona facilitated for our recent online
schools conference in March 2024. So you can
find your way to that on our website as well.
Don't forget to tell your friends and colleagues all about us, and rate
our show on whatever platform you're listening on. our show notes have
(30:32):
lots of useful links, including those that Mona, has mentioned in this
episode, so be sure to take a look at those as well. If
you want to follow up on some of those. You can also follow us
on X and on Instagram at, Cambridge
Int. So thank you for listening and we hope you
will join us again soon. Goodbye.
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