December 4, 2024 • 45 mins
My guest this week is the amazing Ashley Jameson. She is the Associate Director of Pure Desire Ministries- a ministry dedicated to equipping individuals and churches with the tools to heal from the impacts of sexual brokenness, addiction, and betrayal.
She and her husband, John, discovered Pure Desire during one of the most challenging seasons of their marriage, battling the devastation caused by a pornography addiction. It’s tools and resources provided them with the support necessary to heal their marriage and family. Four years later, Ashley now leads leadership training for Pure Desire's regional group advisors nationwide, helping spread the message of recovery and healing in communities and churches across the country.
I truly believe this conversation is one that can bring hope, healing, and freedom to so many. Let’s dive in!
3:23 – Ashley 101
• Discovering her husband’s addiction
• How Purse Desire’s resources helped her family
• Joining the Pure Desire team
6:22 – The Realities Of Addiction
• The latest stats on Christian pornography use
• The lack of churches addressing this issue
• The unique challenges women face with pornography addiction
12:42 – Breaking The Silence
• The importance of normalizing these conversations
• Impactful resources you can offer your congregation
• How compulsive sexual behavior rewires the brain
• The need for churches to become educated and equipped to handle these challenges
21:41 – The Neurological Impact Of Pornography
• Having open conversations as a family
• Early exposure to harmful content
• How repeated exposure rewires the brain
32:23 – Taking Steps Toward Healing
• The steps churches can take to become supportive environments
• Resources available through Pure Desire
• Getting help for betrayal trauma
• Practical first steps for women struggling with pornography
FEATURED QUOTES
“The newest numbers are showing that 75% of Christian men are looking at pornography, 40% of Christian women, and it's also saying that 82% of Christians are saying that nobody is helping them avoid pornography.”
“We don't have to be afraid to talk about these things in a church or as leaders or as parents, because this stuff is already happening. What we're doing is just bringing it to light so we can start sifting through it and figuring out how to be part of the solution.”
“My number one recommendation would be, do not go another day without having a plan of at least sharing it with one safe person who you can say, ‘will you walk with me as I try to figure out what my next step is?’”
Learn more about Ashley:
Pure Desire Ministries
https://puredesire.org/
Pure Desire’s Resources
https://puredesire.org/resources/
Unfiltered: Real Talk About Sex and Love Podcast
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/unfiltered-real-talk-about-sex-love/id1749351656
Get in touch with Pure Desire
(503) 489-0230
groups@puredesire.org
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Great.
All right, Ashley, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for being here.
I'm so excited for you to join me.
It's an honor for me.
I'm just really excited to dive into these conversations with you today.
Thank you for having me.
Yes, I am man.
I have been looking forward to this.
And for the listeners in my intro, I gave a little bit of a disclaimer that this might notbe a conversation that you want certain little ears listening or just to just to kind of
(00:32):
be aware.
Although maybe, you know, if you got your teenagers listening, this one might be for them,because I think that these are conversations we need to be having with our kids and our
teenagers at age appropriate levels, of course.
But this really is I told you this before we hit record that I have been
really looking forward to this because this is just a topic that I don't feel like getsdiscussed enough.
(00:55):
And yet it is a topic that is, as we are about to learn, something that more people thannot are dealing with and struggling with.
And that is in regards to pornography and sexual trauma and just all those kinds of thingsthat go along with that.
There is a lot to unpack here.
(01:16):
So we're gonna get into all of that, but first, I wanna get to know you.
So Ashley, would you give us the Ashley 101?
So who you are, what you do, and how you got to where you are today.
Yes, I know when you mentioned you're gonna open it up, I let me share a little bit.
just, and how excited you're about this topic.
I always get emotional because this is like many of us at Pure Desire.
(01:41):
It's a subject that we are passionate about because we've been there and we needed help.
And so I was definitely one of the women in church that needed help because my husband, Ifound out he had a pornography addiction and also a past with prostitutes.
So I was doing life and thinking I was married to
the Christian man that I, you I did the things right this time around.
And then all of a sudden boogie man came out of the closet.
(02:04):
so I was desperate for help.
And this was 11, 12 years ago.
And we stumbled into pure desire resources back then and kind of just fumbled our waythrough.
But it radically changed our marriage and our family.
And at the time our kids were younger.
I now have 21 year old twin boys, a 14 year old daughter and a 13 year old son.
(02:26):
And I feel like I can thank Peer Desire and the work that we've done in being bold at PeerDesire for the health of my family right now.
And possibly that we're even together and thriving.
And so a personal connection to it.
I got into Peer Desire and I've been on staff since 2015.
So for about nine years, I've been overseeing the groups department and helping churches,leaders.
(02:50):
Anybody who's interested in finding out what can we do for this issue and how can we startgroups, how can we bring healing to our communities, that's what I do and I partner with
churches most of the day and just help them see that they can do this.
This is a big problem in all churches and we have resources that are pretty much plug andplay that they can use to start opening up these conversations in the church.
(03:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, think first of all, you just sharing kind of vulnerably your kind of how yougot connected with this.
But, you know, larger picture.
The reality is, is that one thing that you said that really struck me is like you werelike, I thought I was the Christian woman in church married to the Christian man with X,
(03:37):
Y, Z.
It's like we have these expectations and especially speaking to those outside of thechurch.
We often think of, well, those people that are in the church, they've just got it alltogether.
They act like they have it all together, which we realize and more and more we're seeing,especially as we've seen moral failings of pastors or prominent leaders are coming out
(03:59):
that that's obviously not true.
And yet the statistics show that a large majority of men within the church, know,Christian men and non-Christian men.
struggle with addiction to pornography or some type of sexual addiction.
And then the statistics, there was just a study released that this is a women's issue aswell.
(04:23):
so obviously we're kind of talking broadly, but I want to really hone in uniquely on thewomen's issue because it is not something that gets talked about enough.
And I think that we, the light has been shown so much on men.
And that we're, it's almost like the light is not reaching the women who need to bereached as well.
(04:49):
Yeah, and it goes on both sides.
Me learning about my husband's addiction and us diving in to get help for that opened upmy eyes to the fact that I had some serious love, sex, relationship issues of my own from
the past that I really hadn't processed.
I had just shoved them down and then I was kind of coping and acting out in other waysthat were more Christian, like control and trust issues and eating things that were more
(05:17):
ambiguous.
I love what the Barna report reveals and we did partner with Barna all last year to dosurveys and research to find out the latest studies and it was a really great partnership
that we could have.
But the newest numbers are showing that 75 % of Christian men are looking at pornography,40 % of Christian women.
And it's also saying that 82 % of Christians are saying that nobody is helping them avoidpornography.
(05:45):
and only 10 % of churches actually have programs in place for this kind of issue.
So what we're seeing is the numbers are rising, the gap between men viewing porn and womenviewing porn is closing.
Women are now one of the fastest growing demographics of porn users and the pornographycompanies are very creative in marketing and going after the women because they can see a
(06:07):
growth in the industry there.
Yet our churches,
only 10 % are addressing this.
And so you've got this huge number of people saying, nobody's helping me, I'm looking atpornography, but not enough churches addressing the issue.
And then around half of the women are claiming that they are not recovered by theirpartner or their husband's betrayal.
(06:31):
And so not only do you have the women increasing in numbers looking at pornography, butyou also have the betrayed spouses.
that are saying I'm with somebody and I don't feel recovered from this.
So it's just this subtle breaking of family and marriages that's under the radar andunseen.
It's going unseen, but it's extremely destructive.
(06:51):
Yeah.
Well, you recently published an op-ed talking about women and pornography usage and thestudy that came out.
And you talk about how, obviously, this is a significant issue for women.
We're seeing the numbers rise.
But what do you think it is that are the unique challenges that women face when strugglingwith sexual addiction compared to men?
(07:18):
Yeah, so some of the unique challenges I think are what I see in my women's groups is thewomen that finally come to us, they might have a few extra obstacles in getting help
because pornography for many years and even I guess on a lot of levels now is viewed as aman's problem, not a female problem.
(07:40):
So then women are feeling extra shame, not only that they're doing something that feelsshameful,
but then they're doing something that is a man's problem.
And so I'm quoting for those who can't see.
So feeling like, okay, I'm extra unique, I'm extra bad, I'm extra messed up because I'mnot even acting like a female.
Then going to possibly the church for help or even counselors, because if they're nottrained correctly, they can end up harming people in their responses.
(08:07):
But going to the church and then they're either being...
nothing for them or put into a group where it's a coed group and it's mostly men, thatcreates an extra level of shame.
What I'm also seeing in women who are coming through our groups is wondering if they'resame sex attracted because they're watching pornography and female bodies are becoming
arousing to them.
And so they're wondering what that means for them and their sexual identity.
(08:31):
Those are some of the extra challenges that I find.
And then also comparison that women will view pornography and
and compare their bodies to the females on screen.
So then you have very, very low self-esteem and also feeling like I need to do this inorder to learn what it's supposed to look like or to be pleasing to a man.
(08:52):
Mm, yeah.
So a lot of what you're obviously hinting at is this societal perception of women'sstruggles and women's how women, think, too, there's a lot of societal perceptions on how
women are to navigate just sexual relationships in general and sexual desire and drive andall of that.
(09:18):
And so that then when you have women that are struggling with pornography addiction, thosesocietal perceptions and stigmas are then being almost like, I don't know the word I'm
looking for is like mapped or just like placed onto them.
so those stigmas along with betrayal trauma or anything like that that has driven women orput women in these situations in which they are kind of in the cycle of behavior.
(09:48):
where they're repeating these patterns, that impacts their willingness to seek help ortalk openly.
What do you think is the step to be able to even crack open the door to maybe take some ofthose societal perceptions away or those things away to be able to create an opportunity
(10:14):
for women who are struggling with this
to maybe normalize and discuss it in a way that's going to make them feel more safe.
Yeah, I'm really glad you answered this question.
Being a parent, I constantly am running the parallel of how I think parents need toapproach the conversation of sexuality with their kids in the same role as leaders because
(10:37):
I know as a parent, I've got four children, two of them are twins, so I feel like they'remy control.
They had the same parent, the same dysfunctional one in the beginning and then the onethat got healthier and they had the same parent.
So out of the four kids, I can have the same conversation with all four kids and some willopen up and just really grasp onto that.
Others will ask questions and two of mine will be like, I don't want to hear this, but Iknow they're listening.
(11:01):
And so I see that in groups, in what we do with church and in parenting that I feel as thepeople who have been radically impacted by the change and by the help that is available
for people who struggle sexually or with betrayal.
And as the leaders,
in this industry and leaders in church, we should be the ones proactively putting theinformation out there.
(11:24):
We don't always have to be reactive, which right now it is because people come to us andthey say, my marriage is falling apart.
I just got incarcerated because my pornography escalated into something illegal.
I just lost my job at a church because of a moral failure.
A lot of times we're responding to that crisis.
so as leaders,
What we should do is be regularly having conversations, sharing this.
(11:47):
mean, I will tell the church, this information just shows us what's already going on.
And so we don't have to be afraid to talk about these things in a church or as leaders oras parents because this stuff is already happening.
What we're doing is just bringing it to light so we can start sifting through it andfiguring out how to be part of the solution and how to be helpful and how to create safe
(12:08):
spaces for people to feel like they can talk because
If I'm a woman in the audience, which I was at one point when I was a teenager and I wasliving a sexual life that I was not proud of and the shame kept me feeling like I was
never gonna be good enough for God's best.
I could never do ministry because if people knew my secrets, they would disqualify me.
(12:30):
I wasn't like the other kids that went to Bible school and didn't do all those things.
That's what I was thinking.
But had anybody at any point...
gone onto the stage and shared maybe a brief testimony, shared some barna sats and say,hey Christians, not that this is healthy, but it's very common and we want you to know
you're not alone and there are resources out there.
Here's an anonymous email you can get in contact.
(12:51):
That would have blown my world open and my perception of me feeling like I am the worstversion of a Christian in this church and nobody else is struggling with what I'm
struggling with.
And so regular conversations and.
in just multiple ways, testimony, sharing stats, incorporating it into your messages,offering groups, offering events, conferences, just put it out there so that when people
(13:14):
are ready, they know where to go.
Yeah, man.
Well, and I think as you were talking, think just the important thing that I think we nameis the reality is that the statistics within the church are not that different from the
statistics outside of the church.
And I mean, I think that is symptomatic of a larger problem.
(13:35):
But the reality is that pornography and sexually compulsive behavior and just the way thatwe have
And I say we as like a broad cultural statement, like culture has created this environmentin which relational dynamics have been affected and people's view of what is, what is
(13:58):
quote normal in a sexual relationship is skewed.
What is quote normal for desire is skewed.
How men and women view each other in sexual dynamics is quote
skewed.
All of that has become this broader issue.
(14:19):
And then we can talk all day about how pornography is often the root cause of things likewhat escalates to things like human trafficking and child abuse.
And I mean, it is at the root of so many issues.
And yet we don't do a great job as a culture and especially as a church.
(14:40):
talking about it.
And so I wanted for you to just kind of speak to that for a minute about how has, forsomebody that's listening that maybe is like, this is brand new information to me, or
maybe I've never thought about it this way, how has pornography and sexually compulsivebehavior shaped the broader cultural relational dynamics that in ways that people just
(15:01):
don't realize?
my gosh, that is such a big question.
You are so right.
It feels like every horrible sexual situation we see, like you're saying trafficking,abuse, marriage is falling apart because of affairs, just it almost all can be traced back
to letting the stuff into our heart.
(15:25):
And even just like the idea of, you would want to get married before...
having sex, like what if you're not happy?
What if you're not compatible?
We hear all these statements from society.
And then we also have churches and parents that are afraid to have the conversations as ifwe're going to introduce it.
what I wanna say is, one, I doubt you're gonna introduce it, I doubt it.
(15:46):
But two, if you introduce it, then you become the person in your congregation or yourchildren's eyes, whoever you're introducing it to, you become the go-to person for.
them to go seek out more information because you're the one who's introduced it to them.
so even on the church side, when I went to my church because of betrayal, and this is manybetrayed spouses stories, you hear, well, are you sure you're trusting him enough?
(16:15):
Are you sure you're trusting God enough?
Are you sure you've forgiven him?
Well, how is your sexual life?
How has your sexual life been?
Do you guys have problems in the marriage?
And this just heaps shame onto a betrayed spouse.
as if there's something they're doing that caused this when almost always there was somekind of sexual struggle before even the spouse came into the picture.
(16:36):
They are not the cause of it.
And so it's a lack of education.
And then we'll get pushback sometimes saying, well, we don't want to incorporate clinicaland biblical.
And at Pure Desire, we do believe it should start in the church because people see this asa sin problem.
They see this as, when I found out, thought,
my husband is sinning against God and sinning against me, I should go to the church,right?
(16:59):
And then I got more wounded by the church by doing that because they weren't informed.
And so we see this as something that should start in the church.
We should be the go-to people for people, but we also see it as something that's biblicaland clinically based and that we have to have authentic community.
We're wounded in relationship and then we have to be healed in relationship.
(17:19):
And so if we can educate churches along those lines that
We're not throwing out that Jesus can set everybody free at one whisper of a prayer, butwhat we're saying is that pornography use and compulsive sexual behavior does actually
change the brain.
It does rewire your brain, just like any kind of drug.
(17:40):
It's just that your brain is making the drug through watching this.
And so, you know, just as the same way a drug addict or an alcoholic would have to gothrough, yes, they need prayer, Jesus, they need to remember who they are in Christ.
and they need to go through some programs to help rewire those connections and brainpathways, you have to do the same thing with pornography.
And so whether it's a lack of education about this or it's, you know, that there areseveral pastors struggling as well or have a history with it, we don't know why, but we
(18:12):
need a better answer as a church so that we can be that go-to place for people.
Yeah, I love that you brought up the, the, the, cannot stand the argument where peoplesay, I don't want you introducing that to my children or I don't need.
And I'm like, do they go to public school?
Cause I guarantee you that this is not the first time that they've heard something likethis.
(18:36):
I mean, I, and part of it, like my, I have talked about this on the podcast.
It's been a while since I have, but
I used to do for over a decade, I did work in the anti-human trafficking space.
And so did a lot of trainings and statewide level legislation, like that kind of stuff.
(18:56):
So this was something that I'm like very, very well versed in as far as like the other endof the spectrum when it gets down the road and it gets ugly fast.
And I brought my kids with me a lot.
My kids are young now, like they're 11 and eight.
And so like I was bringing them with me to events and things like that and walks.
And I remember somebody said to me, like, how could you bring your kids to some of theseevents?
(19:21):
you're introducing this topic to them.
said, no, I'm creating a space for them at an age appropriate level for them to feel safeto ask questions.
Yeah.
so my kids now know at 11 and eight, they can come home and they can ask mom and dad.
There is no question that is off limits.
And let me tell you that is both a blessing and a curse because there are times where mykids will ask me a question because they've heard something on the bus and I go, well, I
(19:49):
guess we're talking about that today.
I was not prepared for that one.
Yeah, that whole like trick question of how do you talk to your kids without blushing?
And I'm like, I still blush sometimes when I talk to my kids and you do it anyways.
100 % the stories that I could tell you that I will not tell on this this podcast.
So as not to embarrass my children long term, but I will tell you it is both a blessingand a curse to create a space.
(20:15):
But the reality is, is I want them to see me and their dad as the like authority on thisstuff.
Not Google.
Not the kid on the bus that's in you know, a couple grades ahead and has tic toc on hisphone.
Like
I want them to come to me to ask these questions so we can have a conversation in anage-appropriate way and that they're not going to Google to be like, what is dot dot dot?
(20:44):
And then who knows what information ends up being served to them?
So number one, I really, really love that you address that because I think that is soimportant and such a key piece of this puzzle in really looking at this as a long-term
solution.
The adults that struggle with this today, the average, I mean, I think this is still thecorrect statistic, but as of a couple years ago when I was in the anti-human trafficking
(21:11):
space, the average age that a child is exposed to pornography is nine.
Yeah, which is trauma, which is sexual trauma.
It should be exposed that early.
Yeah.
that's, like, when you really think about that, and like, that there are showing that moreand more that kids, because especially now, as they get devices, and they get they have
(21:35):
unlimited access to the internet, that they end up being exposed to the stuff that we havekids in middle school that are hardcore addicted to pornography.
And yes, and so we like, the reality is like, as adults, we've got to deal with this.
in an adult way.
And then we've got to deal with how kids are being exposed to this stuff at an early agebefore that prefrontal cortex is fully formed.
(22:01):
their rewire their brain is going to be much more difficult to rewire.
I think that that's first, like I said, I just wanted to address that because I love thatyou brought that up.
And I don't know there's anything else you want to kind of speak to that because I thinkthat is such a just such a key piece of this.
part because I mean, the New Barn report says that 67 % of pastors have a personal historywith corneas.
(22:24):
So you're saying 67 % of our pastors, 75 % of our men, 40 % of women.
And so if these are our adults, if these are the leaders, adults in our community, we haveto be willing to address our own things first.
And then when I have parents or leaders call me and they want to do something, if they'restill struggling or haven't addressed it, then my first...
(22:45):
suggestion is always going to be go through the work for yourself and you are going to beamazed at how you can organically then start to help the people around you or even your
children and you don't have to be an expert when you've processed all of that stuff foryourself.
Right, absolutely, yeah.
And then the second key piece of this is that brain, that neurological piece.
(23:06):
And I am fascinated by this.
And this is something that, so our church has a men's ministry that does go through aprogram and actually encourages all men in our church, whether they have struggled with a
pornography addiction or not.
even though obviously statistics show most of them probably have at some point, but that'scertainly not true that all of them have.
(23:31):
But it does encourage all the men, we encourage all men in our church to go through thisprogram.
And it's called Conquer.
I don't know if maybe you've heard of it.
Dr.
Ted is our founder.
He's the main guy on that.
Well, there you go.
Look at that.
So here we are.
So yeah, so all of the men in our church are encouraged to go through Conquer.
And one of the things I remember when my husband came home from one of the sessions thathe talked about, he was like so fascinated about the gypsy moths.
(24:01):
And I don't know if this is something that maybe you could explain because I could do it,but I would probably not do it as well.
Do you know?
So, and I think the reason I'm gonna ask you to do this is because I think it is such anincredible illustration of how the neurology of our brain actually gets rewired from this.
So can you talk about the gypsy moths?
(24:21):
Yes, I can.
I'm so excited that you're reading this.
I love this rabbit trail.
Like I said earlier that my twins are 21.
And so when I was talking to them about masturbation when they were 16, 17 years old, theyknow what I believe as far as my faith, but I was really able to come at them because kids
now, everything is recorded.
They want evidence.
(24:42):
They want to know.
And I'm like, I'm not scared of giving you evidence because what I find is evidence backedup what God already said.
It's just helping to explain what's actually happening.
And so
more teenagers are graduating high school with erectile dysfunction.
And what you're saying about the just gypsy moths is this, this overload of artificialreward, artificial dopamine.
(25:03):
And so these gypsy moths, and I'm going to, haven't seen the converse in a years, but I'mgoing to maybe butcher it, kind of not paraphrase it, that they were able to give the
gypsy moths a synthetic smell.
And so these male moths,
they were attracted to the synthetic smell of these gypsy moths.
They put it in the air and they were searching around and around and around looking forthis artificially highly scented female when the real female gypsy moths were there and
(25:29):
they were not pursuing mating or reproduction with these real version, these real womanlymoths because there was this artificial scent in the air that they kept searching for.
And that to me,
what we see in our work is that pornography can flood the dopamine system.
I mean, it is artificial flooding.
(25:52):
think another example in the Conquer series is saying, you eat a strawberry and it'ssweet, but then if you eat a strawberry after a Snickers bar, it's not sweet, right?
And so that's kind of the idea with the gypsy mods and the Snicker bar is that what Godintended to be arousing, to be pleasurable, to fill our reward centers,
(26:12):
We've figured out a way to cheat the system and just flood it with instant gratificationin this artificial flood of dopamine.
And so what was intended to be pleasing to us is no longer doing it.
And this is where I can see women coming in and saying, I'm not sexually aroused to myhusband, but they're watching all these fantasy or not like romance novels and romance TV
(26:35):
shows.
I'm sure we can all think of a few or guys are saying they're struggling with erectiledysfunction.
because they've trained their brain to be aroused by whatever pornography content they'reviewing.
And then when they orgasm, they're attaching to that.
And so it can be rewired.
We see all the time in couples saying, our marriage is better than I ever thought it wouldbe.
(26:59):
Because a lot of times they're actually entering into marriage with these problems, eventhough the spouse doesn't know.
And so then when they attack it and unpack it and rewire everything, they're experiencingsomething greater than they did.
possibly even in the beginning.
Yeah.
my gosh.
Well, I love I can't believe I duh, I knew that conquer was a part of the pure desireseries and I just like wasn't forgive me.
(27:22):
It's a recording.
Yeah.
our founder and he created the seven pillars.
So he intended for men to watch the poker series like you're saying.
And then if they recognize they have a struggle past or present, they should then gothrough our seven pillars of freedom material.
That's where they do the deep dive to start rewiring things.
(27:43):
So yes, that's how the connection is made.
like, yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, I was like, really just in all theprep for this episode, I was like doing all the research on like the women stuff and like
wasn't even making the good stuff.
So anyway, it's you know, sometimes when I'm, it's when we're recording, it's Mondayafternoon.
so I know, I know.
And it's before Thanksgiving.
(28:05):
And so like a half of my brain is like thinking about Thanksgiving side dishes.
So yeah, but I love that.
I love that.
And I love that you were able to explain that.
Yes, because it and I think too, like, yes, I love the story of the gypsy malls.
I think it's fascinating because I do think it just really illustrates this point.
But then even simplifying it and talking about the strawberries versus a Snickers bar.
(28:27):
And those those components are so because it's like we all get it.
That is like, yeah, that makes sense.
But it's not something, again, that we we talk about.
I mean, this takes work.
I mean, it does.
You know, this is not something that just
happens overnight when we we won when our brain is wired one way and it's not going tohappen overnight to rewire it.
(28:51):
So as far as this obviously this feels like a a topic that is so overwhelming and it canfeel culturally just like this Goliath that we are.
fighting and we've we're holding our five smooth stones.
(29:13):
And we know that we can take it down, but it feels really overwhelming.
And so I guess kind of in the first, the first part of what I want to ask here is thechurch's role, because yes, like, we want to talk about this outside of the church, but I
do believe that wholeheartedly that the the church is a hospital for sick people, both menand women.
(29:36):
And like I said, our men's group
We've had over half of the men in our church have gone through the conquer series and Thefeedback of like what is happening in our men's group is incredible.
I mean our men's ministry is on fire We're a small church plant.
I mean, it's been really cool like to hear the feedback of some of these men going Youknow, I'm in my 70s and I've never had these conversations or I'm in my 60s I've never had
(30:00):
these conversations or young young men who are newly married who are like, wow, I youknow, I can maybe set my
my marriage up for the long term here in a positive way.
And obviously that doesn't necessarily exist quite yet in our church for women, but Ithink that having these conversations, these resources available is really important.
(30:21):
speaking more broadly to churches, what steps do you feel like churches can take to becomesafe, supportive environments for people who are dealing with sexual brokenness and
betrayal trauma?
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked this.
I think just having the conversation, if you're not talking about it, figure out a way tostart talking about it regularly.
(30:45):
And we have some things that churches can use to do that.
Even, like I said, if you educate yourself as church leaders, then you're going to just beable to talk about these things organically as they come up.
Even in a sermon, you might be able to go say, and this also reminds me of this example,and just to remind you, we have this and that.
Having the knowledge is so important because then you can just become a church thatunderstands more.
(31:07):
And so what we found is we needed something.
And so we used to do our two-day conference and we created Sexual Integrity 101, which isour eight-week video course.
So men and women, like you're saying, the Conquer series has been mind blowing.
What we found is it does miracles for discipleship of men because when they have thosehidden areas that they're struggling with and they can...
(31:29):
understand that they don't have to have shame and they're not alone and start workingthrough those issues, the ministry aspect of it just blows up because they feel free for
real the first time in church.
And so we created Sexual Integrity 101, which is our eight week video course for men andwomen.
so we have four of the videos are, four of the sessions are women teachers and four aremen teachers, but it's the same theme.
(31:51):
We go through the neuroscience, how it impacts your brain, things about the betrayedspouse.
And so I say, equip yourself as a church.
Take Your Leadership Through video series.
We have our new Youth Leader Library for youth pastors or I would say parents too, or ifyou're a baby church that hasn't even started talking about this, just get on it for
yourself for adults.
(32:11):
But it's free and there's lots of videos on there that are three to five minutes about howdo you talk to a student that just disclosed they're struggling with pornography.
This information would be good for main church leaders too because when we go to thechurch as
as betrayed spouses or as struggling spouses and we get just pray more, read more, trustGod and then we do those things and we keep relapsing.
(32:36):
What happens is we believe that either God can't do what he said he was going to do andset us free or we believe there's something wrong with us and our faith.
And so that's just another layer of shame now that we're dealing with.
And it's the head, the hands and the heart.
And as a church, we need to not be afraid to say we need to change our head, our thoughtsand our
and our heart, our beliefs, but also our behaviors.
(32:56):
And it's all three.
It's not just one piece.
And so we need to give our men and women a practical next step, not the whole thing,because it will take a few years of hard work to renew whether you're the the struggler,
the addict or the betrayed.
But if we can be talking about it regularly, let them know it's OK and it's a safe placeand give everybody one next step.
(33:17):
That would be great.
Peer Desire has online groups for men and women.
We have resources for pastors.
getting a list of counselors and therapists and coaches that are actually trained ineither a certified sex addiction therapist or somebody that's betrayal trauma trained and
having that be something so you can at least say, I hear you and I'm so sorry you're goingthrough this and I wanna walk with you as we try to figure out what your next step should
(33:41):
be, can go so far versus, well, all marriages struggle with these kinds of things andmaybe we need to work on our communication and
having sex every 72 hours, like whatever bad advice we may get as somebody in the church.
Yeah.
OK.
And then the next thing I want to ask you is about speaking specifically to those who haveexperienced betrayal trauma.
(34:10):
And so one, I think we've kind of thrown this topic around a little bit.
But I'd love for you to just kind of briefly define it and maybe kind of name somemisconceptions around what it is.
But then speak to that person.
directly about how they can get help.
(34:30):
Yeah, thank you for giving the space to unpack that.
So the Barnett report says that 33 % of spouses say that they are with partner who looksat pornography.
And like I said earlier, I think the number is 46 % say they feel like they've fullyrecovered, which means that over 50 % feel like they're still stuck.
(34:51):
When we feel stuck as a betrayed spouse, we feel fear.
we feel stress.
so what I would want to say is that betrayal trauma is a real thing.
Not every betrayed spouse experiences trauma, but the majority does experience trauma.
if you're under, if you're, if you have a knowledge of PTSD, it's similar in that, in thatyour language center can go offline.
(35:18):
Your, your fight fighter free system is just completely turned on and feeling unsafe.
that whole system that protects us when we're in danger and shuts things down like ourdigestion and different things that we don't need when we're in danger, that can get stuck
on.
And so I see a lot of betrayed spouses that also have chronic illness, struggle withautoimmune disease.
(35:43):
And we also see that can kind of get a little bit better as they're addressing the mind,body, and soul.
And so the biggest thing I can say is betrayal trauma impacts everything.
mind, body, spirit, physical ailments, and they can stay stuck there for as many years asit takes for them to actually pause and unpack that.
(36:06):
And they may learn different ways to cope or to get through life, but the stress of whatthey're carrying is still inside.
And so another little brain thing is that our memories and our feelings are stored next toeach other.
And so as we...
recall memories or maybe we're being triggered by something that we don't recognize.
Like if we found out about an affair when we were at a basketball game, we may not knowthat forever as we enter basketball games that our body is feeling triggered and we might
(36:33):
not ever make that connection unless we pause to unpack the whole narrative of whathappened through discovery and through the lies and the deceptions and the feelings so
that we can then go into a basketball room and say, this is not the same thing thathappened 10 years ago.
I don't have to feel this way.
I can breathe.
I can call it out.
I can speak new truth over myself.
(36:54):
And I can start to neutralize the feelings that are attached with that memory.
And so we can neutralize those feelings by verbally saying something out loud at lights ofdifferent parts of our brain.
And if we're saying in a safe place, then our brain files it back away again with a newsense of truth and awareness and options.
When we have options, it makes us feel like
(37:15):
we can kind of relax a little bit rather than just living in the unknown and the fear ofthat.
And so there's all these processes that we take a betrayed spouse through so that theydon't have to stay stuck in these known or unknown triggers.
Mm Yeah.
Yeah, that's so good.
And then the last group that I actually really would love for you to spend some timetalking to is, is specifically women.
(37:40):
And that is the woman who is listening who maybe has struggled with this past, presently,how what are the steps?
Like practical first steps that you would recommend to that
(38:06):
thing that is preventing them, I think, even taking that first step to getting healed.
So what's a practical first step you would recommend to them to begin their journey ofhealing from whether it's you know, sex addiction or pornography or whatever it might look
like?
(38:27):
Well, I would say if your church is one that offers good programs for sexual addictionrecovery, then sign up for one and just get in and do it.
That is not always going to be people's first step.
If it's available, that's going to be a great first step.
On our website, puredesire.org, you can go to a map and see what churches have groups inyour area and put in your zip code.
(38:49):
And so you can find a local church.
Those don't cost anything except for buying your books.
If that's not an option, there's another tab on our website where you can look at anonline group and join Unraveled, which is managing love, sex, and relationships.
It's for women, and that would be a great group.
If you're not ready to jump in a group, Sexual Integrity 101, that eight-week video courseto give you an understanding of why you're stuck.
(39:14):
If it's been a problem for a while, if it's something you said you never wanted to returnto, but yet you found yourself returning there, if it's hurting yourself or other people,
those are
really great reasons to take a next step.
If you feel like your relationships just continue to fail or there are struggles becausesex addiction is not about sex.
And so even if we're avoiding sex or avoiding intimacy, that could be coming from the sameexact place as somebody who's acting outside.
(39:39):
So getting to the root of that.
So groups, you have a ministry in your church, talk with them.
If you have a counselor who's safe, talk with them, a friend that's safe.
Our podcast is unfiltered, real talk about sex and love.
Even just starting to listen to other questions coming in from women can give you a senseof, I'm not the only one who struggles with this.
(40:01):
And so maybe just starting with the podcast to hear, to hear that you're not alone wouldbe a great step.
But my, those are options.
My number one, one recommendation would be do not go another day without having a plan ofat least sharing it with one safe person who you can say, will you?
walk with me as I try to figure out what my next step is.
(40:24):
Or reaching out to Pure Desire, you can email our groups team, it's just groups atpuredesire.org and say, here's my situation, what's a good starting place for me?
But don't let the time pass, I would just act on that and make sure that you take a nextstep.
Mm.
Mm.
That's so good.
Ashley, thank you so much for this conversation, your openness.
(40:45):
And I just, I'm encouraging all the listeners, especially if this is something you or yourspouse or someone you know is struggling with, and especially if you have kids, have these
conversations now.
I mean, we could, and honestly, Ashley, I kind of want to have you on it again, and maybewe just do a whole conversation about kids.
Because again, I think this is something as a parent of a tween and a young
(41:08):
boy, just, I'm radically passionate about, having these conversations at an early age withour kids.
And so just again, kind of like, what's the saying is like, you want to catch themupstream before they fall in?
You don't want to be downstream when they're, when they're drowning.
I would rather keep them from falling in all together.
(41:31):
especially if you're a parent, get some of these resources.
I'll have links in the show notes.
And Ashley, thank you so much for this conversation and just for the work that you aredoing and Pure Desire is doing to help people be free.
Yeah, thank you so much for just creating this space to have this conversation.
(41:52):
think this is exactly what we need to be doing more of is just bringing this to light.
Amen.
Amen.
Great.
All right, Ashley, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for being here.
I'm so excited for you to join me.
It's an honor for me.
I'm just really excited to dive into these conversations with you today.
Thank you for having me.
Yes, I am man.
I have been looking forward to this.
And for the listeners in my intro, I gave a little bit of a disclaimer that this might notbe a conversation that you want certain little ears listening or just to just to kind of
(00:32):
be aware.
Although maybe, you know, if you got your teenagers listening, this one might be for them,because I think that these are conversations we need to be having with our kids and our
teenagers at age appropriate levels, of course.
But this really is I told you this before we hit record that I have been
really looking forward to this because this is just a topic that I don't feel like getsdiscussed enough.
(00:55):
And yet it is a topic that is, as we are about to learn, something that more people thannot are dealing with and struggling with.
And that is in regards to pornography and sexual trauma and just all those kinds of thingsthat go along with that.
There is a lot to unpack here.
(01:16):
So we're gonna get into all of that, but first, I wanna get to know you.
So Ashley, would you give us the Ashley 101?
So who you are, what you do, and how you got to where you are today.
Yes, I know when you mentioned you're gonna open it up, I let me share a little bit.
just, and how excited you're about this topic.
I always get emotional because this is like many of us at Pure Desire.
(01:41):
It's a subject that we are passionate about because we've been there and we needed help.
And so I was definitely one of the women in church that needed help because my husband, Ifound out he had a pornography addiction and also a past with prostitutes.
So I was doing life and thinking I was married to
the Christian man that I, you I did the things right this time around.
And then all of a sudden boogie man came out of the closet.
(02:04):
so I was desperate for help.
And this was 11, 12 years ago.
And we stumbled into pure desire resources back then and kind of just fumbled our waythrough.
But it radically changed our marriage and our family.
And at the time our kids were younger.
I now have 21 year old twin boys, a 14 year old daughter and a 13 year old son.
(02:26):
And I feel like I can thank Peer Desire and the work that we've done in being bold at PeerDesire for the health of my family right now.
And possibly that we're even together and thriving.
And so a personal connection to it.
I got into Peer Desire and I've been on staff since 2015.
So for about nine years, I've been overseeing the groups department and helping churches,leaders.
(02:50):
Anybody who's interested in finding out what can we do for this issue and how can we startgroups, how can we bring healing to our communities, that's what I do and I partner with
churches most of the day and just help them see that they can do this.
This is a big problem in all churches and we have resources that are pretty much plug andplay that they can use to start opening up these conversations in the church.
(03:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, think first of all, you just sharing kind of vulnerably your kind of how yougot connected with this.
But, you know, larger picture.
The reality is, is that one thing that you said that really struck me is like you werelike, I thought I was the Christian woman in church married to the Christian man with X,
(03:37):
Y, Z.
It's like we have these expectations and especially speaking to those outside of thechurch.
We often think of, well, those people that are in the church, they've just got it alltogether.
They act like they have it all together, which we realize and more and more we're seeing,especially as we've seen moral failings of pastors or prominent leaders are coming out
(03:59):
that that's obviously not true.
And yet the statistics show that a large majority of men within the church, know,Christian men and non-Christian men.
struggle with addiction to pornography or some type of sexual addiction.
And then the statistics, there was just a study released that this is a women's issue aswell.
(04:23):
so obviously we're kind of talking broadly, but I want to really hone in uniquely on thewomen's issue because it is not something that gets talked about enough.
And I think that we, the light has been shown so much on men.
And that we're, it's almost like the light is not reaching the women who need to bereached as well.
(04:49):
Yeah, and it goes on both sides.
Me learning about my husband's addiction and us diving in to get help for that opened upmy eyes to the fact that I had some serious love, sex, relationship issues of my own from
the past that I really hadn't processed.
I had just shoved them down and then I was kind of coping and acting out in other waysthat were more Christian, like control and trust issues and eating things that were more
(05:17):
ambiguous.
I love what the Barna report reveals and we did partner with Barna all last year to dosurveys and research to find out the latest studies and it was a really great partnership
that we could have.
But the newest numbers are showing that 75 % of Christian men are looking at pornography,40 % of Christian women.
And it's also saying that 82 % of Christians are saying that nobody is helping them avoidpornography.
(05:45):
and only 10 % of churches actually have programs in place for this kind of issue.
So what we're seeing is the numbers are rising, the gap between men viewing porn and womenviewing porn is closing.
Women are now one of the fastest growing demographics of porn users and the pornographycompanies are very creative in marketing and going after the women because they can see a
(06:07):
growth in the industry there.
Yet our churches,
only 10 % are addressing this.
And so you've got this huge number of people saying, nobody's helping me, I'm looking atpornography, but not enough churches addressing the issue.
And then around half of the women are claiming that they are not recovered by theirpartner or their husband's betrayal.
(06:31):
And so not only do you have the women increasing in numbers looking at pornography, butyou also have the betrayed spouses.
that are saying I'm with somebody and I don't feel recovered from this.
So it's just this subtle breaking of family and marriages that's under the radar andunseen.
It's going unseen, but it's extremely destructive.
(06:51):
Yeah.
Well, you recently published an op-ed talking about women and pornography usage and thestudy that came out.
And you talk about how, obviously, this is a significant issue for women.
We're seeing the numbers rise.
But what do you think it is that are the unique challenges that women face when strugglingwith sexual addiction compared to men?
(07:18):
Yeah, so some of the unique challenges I think are what I see in my women's groups is thewomen that finally come to us, they might have a few extra obstacles in getting help
because pornography for many years and even I guess on a lot of levels now is viewed as aman's problem, not a female problem.
(07:40):
So then women are feeling extra shame, not only that they're doing something that feelsshameful,
but then they're doing something that is a man's problem.
And so I'm quoting for those who can't see.
So feeling like, okay, I'm extra unique, I'm extra bad, I'm extra messed up because I'mnot even acting like a female.
Then going to possibly the church for help or even counselors, because if they're nottrained correctly, they can end up harming people in their responses.
(08:07):
But going to the church and then they're either being...
nothing for them or put into a group where it's a coed group and it's mostly men, thatcreates an extra level of shame.
What I'm also seeing in women who are coming through our groups is wondering if they'resame sex attracted because they're watching pornography and female bodies are becoming
arousing to them.
And so they're wondering what that means for them and their sexual identity.
(08:31):
Those are some of the extra challenges that I find.
And then also comparison that women will view pornography and
and compare their bodies to the females on screen.
So then you have very, very low self-esteem and also feeling like I need to do this inorder to learn what it's supposed to look like or to be pleasing to a man.
(08:52):
Mm, yeah.
So a lot of what you're obviously hinting at is this societal perception of women'sstruggles and women's how women, think, too, there's a lot of societal perceptions on how
women are to navigate just sexual relationships in general and sexual desire and drive andall of that.
(09:18):
And so that then when you have women that are struggling with pornography addiction, thosesocietal perceptions and stigmas are then being almost like, I don't know the word I'm
looking for is like mapped or just like placed onto them.
so those stigmas along with betrayal trauma or anything like that that has driven women orput women in these situations in which they are kind of in the cycle of behavior.
(09:48):
where they're repeating these patterns, that impacts their willingness to seek help ortalk openly.
What do you think is the step to be able to even crack open the door to maybe take some ofthose societal perceptions away or those things away to be able to create an opportunity
(10:14):
for women who are struggling with this
to maybe normalize and discuss it in a way that's going to make them feel more safe.
Yeah, I'm really glad you answered this question.
Being a parent, I constantly am running the parallel of how I think parents need toapproach the conversation of sexuality with their kids in the same role as leaders because
(10:37):
I know as a parent, I've got four children, two of them are twins, so I feel like they'remy control.
They had the same parent, the same dysfunctional one in the beginning and then the onethat got healthier and they had the same parent.
So out of the four kids, I can have the same conversation with all four kids and some willopen up and just really grasp onto that.
Others will ask questions and two of mine will be like, I don't want to hear this, but Iknow they're listening.
(11:01):
And so I see that in groups, in what we do with church and in parenting that I feel as thepeople who have been radically impacted by the change and by the help that is available
for people who struggle sexually or with betrayal.
And as the leaders,
in this industry and leaders in church, we should be the ones proactively putting theinformation out there.
(11:24):
We don't always have to be reactive, which right now it is because people come to us andthey say, my marriage is falling apart.
I just got incarcerated because my pornography escalated into something illegal.
I just lost my job at a church because of a moral failure.
A lot of times we're responding to that crisis.
so as leaders,
What we should do is be regularly having conversations, sharing this.
(11:47):
mean, I will tell the church, this information just shows us what's already going on.
And so we don't have to be afraid to talk about these things in a church or as leaders oras parents because this stuff is already happening.
What we're doing is just bringing it to light so we can start sifting through it andfiguring out how to be part of the solution and how to be helpful and how to create safe
(12:08):
spaces for people to feel like they can talk because
If I'm a woman in the audience, which I was at one point when I was a teenager and I wasliving a sexual life that I was not proud of and the shame kept me feeling like I was
never gonna be good enough for God's best.
I could never do ministry because if people knew my secrets, they would disqualify me.
(12:30):
I wasn't like the other kids that went to Bible school and didn't do all those things.
That's what I was thinking.
But had anybody at any point...
gone onto the stage and shared maybe a brief testimony, shared some barna sats and say,hey Christians, not that this is healthy, but it's very common and we want you to know
you're not alone and there are resources out there.
Here's an anonymous email you can get in contact.
(12:51):
That would have blown my world open and my perception of me feeling like I am the worstversion of a Christian in this church and nobody else is struggling with what I'm
struggling with.
And so regular conversations and.
in just multiple ways, testimony, sharing stats, incorporating it into your messages,offering groups, offering events, conferences, just put it out there so that when people
(13:14):
are ready, they know where to go.
Yeah, man.
Well, and I think as you were talking, think just the important thing that I think we nameis the reality is that the statistics within the church are not that different from the
statistics outside of the church.
And I mean, I think that is symptomatic of a larger problem.
(13:35):
But the reality is that pornography and sexually compulsive behavior and just the way thatwe have
And I say we as like a broad cultural statement, like culture has created this environmentin which relational dynamics have been affected and people's view of what is, what is
(13:58):
quote normal in a sexual relationship is skewed.
What is quote normal for desire is skewed.
How men and women view each other in sexual dynamics is quote
skewed.
All of that has become this broader issue.
(14:19):
And then we can talk all day about how pornography is often the root cause of things likewhat escalates to things like human trafficking and child abuse.
And I mean, it is at the root of so many issues.
And yet we don't do a great job as a culture and especially as a church.
(14:40):
talking about it.
And so I wanted for you to just kind of speak to that for a minute about how has, forsomebody that's listening that maybe is like, this is brand new information to me, or
maybe I've never thought about it this way, how has pornography and sexually compulsivebehavior shaped the broader cultural relational dynamics that in ways that people just
(15:01):
don't realize?
my gosh, that is such a big question.
You are so right.
It feels like every horrible sexual situation we see, like you're saying trafficking,abuse, marriage is falling apart because of affairs, just it almost all can be traced back
to letting the stuff into our heart.
(15:25):
And even just like the idea of, you would want to get married before...
having sex, like what if you're not happy?
What if you're not compatible?
We hear all these statements from society.
And then we also have churches and parents that are afraid to have the conversations as ifwe're going to introduce it.
what I wanna say is, one, I doubt you're gonna introduce it, I doubt it.
(15:46):
But two, if you introduce it, then you become the person in your congregation or yourchildren's eyes, whoever you're introducing it to, you become the go-to person for.
them to go seek out more information because you're the one who's introduced it to them.
so even on the church side, when I went to my church because of betrayal, and this is manybetrayed spouses stories, you hear, well, are you sure you're trusting him enough?
(16:15):
Are you sure you're trusting God enough?
Are you sure you've forgiven him?
Well, how is your sexual life?
How has your sexual life been?
Do you guys have problems in the marriage?
And this just heaps shame onto a betrayed spouse.
as if there's something they're doing that caused this when almost always there was somekind of sexual struggle before even the spouse came into the picture.
(16:36):
They are not the cause of it.
And so it's a lack of education.
And then we'll get pushback sometimes saying, well, we don't want to incorporate clinicaland biblical.
And at Pure Desire, we do believe it should start in the church because people see this asa sin problem.
They see this as, when I found out, thought,
my husband is sinning against God and sinning against me, I should go to the church,right?
(16:59):
And then I got more wounded by the church by doing that because they weren't informed.
And so we see this as something that should start in the church.
We should be the go-to people for people, but we also see it as something that's biblicaland clinically based and that we have to have authentic community.
We're wounded in relationship and then we have to be healed in relationship.
(17:19):
And so if we can educate churches along those lines that
We're not throwing out that Jesus can set everybody free at one whisper of a prayer, butwhat we're saying is that pornography use and compulsive sexual behavior does actually
change the brain.
It does rewire your brain, just like any kind of drug.
(17:40):
It's just that your brain is making the drug through watching this.
And so, you know, just as the same way a drug addict or an alcoholic would have to gothrough, yes, they need prayer, Jesus, they need to remember who they are in Christ.
and they need to go through some programs to help rewire those connections and brainpathways, you have to do the same thing with pornography.
And so whether it's a lack of education about this or it's, you know, that there areseveral pastors struggling as well or have a history with it, we don't know why, but we
(18:12):
need a better answer as a church so that we can be that go-to place for people.
Yeah, I love that you brought up the, the, the, cannot stand the argument where peoplesay, I don't want you introducing that to my children or I don't need.
And I'm like, do they go to public school?
Cause I guarantee you that this is not the first time that they've heard something likethis.
(18:36):
I mean, I, and part of it, like my, I have talked about this on the podcast.
It's been a while since I have, but
I used to do for over a decade, I did work in the anti-human trafficking space.
And so did a lot of trainings and statewide level legislation, like that kind of stuff.
(18:56):
So this was something that I'm like very, very well versed in as far as like the other endof the spectrum when it gets down the road and it gets ugly fast.
And I brought my kids with me a lot.
My kids are young now, like they're 11 and eight.
And so like I was bringing them with me to events and things like that and walks.
And I remember somebody said to me, like, how could you bring your kids to some of theseevents?
(19:21):
you're introducing this topic to them.
said, no, I'm creating a space for them at an age appropriate level for them to feel safeto ask questions.
Yeah.
so my kids now know at 11 and eight, they can come home and they can ask mom and dad.
There is no question that is off limits.
And let me tell you that is both a blessing and a curse because there are times where mykids will ask me a question because they've heard something on the bus and I go, well, I
(19:49):
guess we're talking about that today.
I was not prepared for that one.
Yeah, that whole like trick question of how do you talk to your kids without blushing?
And I'm like, I still blush sometimes when I talk to my kids and you do it anyways.
100 % the stories that I could tell you that I will not tell on this this podcast.
So as not to embarrass my children long term, but I will tell you it is both a blessingand a curse to create a space.
(20:15):
But the reality is, is I want them to see me and their dad as the like authority on thisstuff.
Not Google.
Not the kid on the bus that's in you know, a couple grades ahead and has tic toc on hisphone.
Like
I want them to come to me to ask these questions so we can have a conversation in anage-appropriate way and that they're not going to Google to be like, what is dot dot dot?
(20:44):
And then who knows what information ends up being served to them?
So number one, I really, really love that you address that because I think that is soimportant and such a key piece of this puzzle in really looking at this as a long-term
solution.
The adults that struggle with this today, the average, I mean, I think this is still thecorrect statistic, but as of a couple years ago when I was in the anti-human trafficking
(21:11):
space, the average age that a child is exposed to pornography is nine.
Yeah, which is trauma, which is sexual trauma.
It should be exposed that early.
Yeah.
that's, like, when you really think about that, and like, that there are showing that moreand more that kids, because especially now, as they get devices, and they get they have
(21:35):
unlimited access to the internet, that they end up being exposed to the stuff that we havekids in middle school that are hardcore addicted to pornography.
And yes, and so we like, the reality is like, as adults, we've got to deal with this.
in an adult way.
And then we've got to deal with how kids are being exposed to this stuff at an early agebefore that prefrontal cortex is fully formed.
(22:01):
their rewire their brain is going to be much more difficult to rewire.
I think that that's first, like I said, I just wanted to address that because I love thatyou brought that up.
And I don't know there's anything else you want to kind of speak to that because I thinkthat is such a just such a key piece of this.
part because I mean, the New Barn report says that 67 % of pastors have a personal historywith corneas.
(22:24):
So you're saying 67 % of our pastors, 75 % of our men, 40 % of women.
And so if these are our adults, if these are the leaders, adults in our community, we haveto be willing to address our own things first.
And then when I have parents or leaders call me and they want to do something, if they'restill struggling or haven't addressed it, then my first...
(22:45):
suggestion is always going to be go through the work for yourself and you are going to beamazed at how you can organically then start to help the people around you or even your
children and you don't have to be an expert when you've processed all of that stuff foryourself.
Right, absolutely, yeah.
And then the second key piece of this is that brain, that neurological piece.
(23:06):
And I am fascinated by this.
And this is something that, so our church has a men's ministry that does go through aprogram and actually encourages all men in our church, whether they have struggled with a
pornography addiction or not.
even though obviously statistics show most of them probably have at some point, but that'scertainly not true that all of them have.
(23:31):
But it does encourage all the men, we encourage all men in our church to go through thisprogram.
And it's called Conquer.
I don't know if maybe you've heard of it.
Dr.
Ted is our founder.
He's the main guy on that.
Well, there you go.
Look at that.
So here we are.
So yeah, so all of the men in our church are encouraged to go through Conquer.
And one of the things I remember when my husband came home from one of the sessions thathe talked about, he was like so fascinated about the gypsy moths.
(24:01):
And I don't know if this is something that maybe you could explain because I could do it,but I would probably not do it as well.
Do you know?
So, and I think the reason I'm gonna ask you to do this is because I think it is such anincredible illustration of how the neurology of our brain actually gets rewired from this.
So can you talk about the gypsy moths?
(24:21):
Yes, I can.
I'm so excited that you're reading this.
I love this rabbit trail.
Like I said earlier that my twins are 21.
And so when I was talking to them about masturbation when they were 16, 17 years old, theyknow what I believe as far as my faith, but I was really able to come at them because kids
now, everything is recorded.
They want evidence.
(24:42):
They want to know.
And I'm like, I'm not scared of giving you evidence because what I find is evidence backedup what God already said.
It's just helping to explain what's actually happening.
And so
more teenagers are graduating high school with erectile dysfunction.
And what you're saying about the just gypsy moths is this, this overload of artificialreward, artificial dopamine.
(25:03):
And so these gypsy moths, and I'm going to, haven't seen the converse in a years, but I'mgoing to maybe butcher it, kind of not paraphrase it, that they were able to give the
gypsy moths a synthetic smell.
And so these male moths,
they were attracted to the synthetic smell of these gypsy moths.
They put it in the air and they were searching around and around and around looking forthis artificially highly scented female when the real female gypsy moths were there and
(25:29):
they were not pursuing mating or reproduction with these real version, these real womanlymoths because there was this artificial scent in the air that they kept searching for.
And that to me,
what we see in our work is that pornography can flood the dopamine system.
I mean, it is artificial flooding.
(25:52):
think another example in the Conquer series is saying, you eat a strawberry and it'ssweet, but then if you eat a strawberry after a Snickers bar, it's not sweet, right?
And so that's kind of the idea with the gypsy mods and the Snicker bar is that what Godintended to be arousing, to be pleasurable, to fill our reward centers,
(26:12):
We've figured out a way to cheat the system and just flood it with instant gratificationin this artificial flood of dopamine.
And so what was intended to be pleasing to us is no longer doing it.
And this is where I can see women coming in and saying, I'm not sexually aroused to myhusband, but they're watching all these fantasy or not like romance novels and romance TV
(26:35):
shows.
I'm sure we can all think of a few or guys are saying they're struggling with erectiledysfunction.
because they've trained their brain to be aroused by whatever pornography content they'reviewing.
And then when they orgasm, they're attaching to that.
And so it can be rewired.
We see all the time in couples saying, our marriage is better than I ever thought it wouldbe.
(26:59):
Because a lot of times they're actually entering into marriage with these problems, eventhough the spouse doesn't know.
And so then when they attack it and unpack it and rewire everything, they're experiencingsomething greater than they did.
possibly even in the beginning.
Yeah.
my gosh.
Well, I love I can't believe I duh, I knew that conquer was a part of the pure desireseries and I just like wasn't forgive me.
(27:22):
It's a recording.
Yeah.
our founder and he created the seven pillars.
So he intended for men to watch the poker series like you're saying.
And then if they recognize they have a struggle past or present, they should then gothrough our seven pillars of freedom material.
That's where they do the deep dive to start rewiring things.
(27:43):
So yes, that's how the connection is made.
like, yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, I was like, really just in all theprep for this episode, I was like doing all the research on like the women stuff and like
wasn't even making the good stuff.
So anyway, it's you know, sometimes when I'm, it's when we're recording, it's Mondayafternoon.
so I know, I know.
And it's before Thanksgiving.
(28:05):
And so like a half of my brain is like thinking about Thanksgiving side dishes.
So yeah, but I love that.
I love that.
And I love that you were able to explain that.
Yes, because it and I think too, like, yes, I love the story of the gypsy malls.
I think it's fascinating because I do think it just really illustrates this point.
But then even simplifying it and talking about the strawberries versus a Snickers bar.
(28:27):
And those those components are so because it's like we all get it.
That is like, yeah, that makes sense.
But it's not something, again, that we we talk about.
I mean, this takes work.
I mean, it does.
You know, this is not something that just
happens overnight when we we won when our brain is wired one way and it's not going tohappen overnight to rewire it.
(28:51):
So as far as this obviously this feels like a a topic that is so overwhelming and it canfeel culturally just like this Goliath that we are.
fighting and we've we're holding our five smooth stones.
(29:13):
And we know that we can take it down, but it feels really overwhelming.
And so I guess kind of in the first, the first part of what I want to ask here is thechurch's role, because yes, like, we want to talk about this outside of the church, but I
do believe that wholeheartedly that the the church is a hospital for sick people, both menand women.
(29:36):
And like I said, our men's group
We've had over half of the men in our church have gone through the conquer series and Thefeedback of like what is happening in our men's group is incredible.
I mean our men's ministry is on fire We're a small church plant.
I mean, it's been really cool like to hear the feedback of some of these men going Youknow, I'm in my 70s and I've never had these conversations or I'm in my 60s I've never had
(30:00):
these conversations or young young men who are newly married who are like, wow, I youknow, I can maybe set my
my marriage up for the long term here in a positive way.
And obviously that doesn't necessarily exist quite yet in our church for women, but Ithink that having these conversations, these resources available is really important.
(30:21):
speaking more broadly to churches, what steps do you feel like churches can take to becomesafe, supportive environments for people who are dealing with sexual brokenness and
betrayal trauma?
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked this.
I think just having the conversation, if you're not talking about it, figure out a way tostart talking about it regularly.
(30:45):
And we have some things that churches can use to do that.
Even, like I said, if you educate yourself as church leaders, then you're going to just beable to talk about these things organically as they come up.
Even in a sermon, you might be able to go say, and this also reminds me of this example,and just to remind you, we have this and that.
Having the knowledge is so important because then you can just become a church thatunderstands more.
(31:07):
And so what we found is we needed something.
And so we used to do our two-day conference and we created Sexual Integrity 101, which isour eight-week video course.
So men and women, like you're saying, the Conquer series has been mind blowing.
What we found is it does miracles for discipleship of men because when they have thosehidden areas that they're struggling with and they can...
(31:29):
understand that they don't have to have shame and they're not alone and start workingthrough those issues, the ministry aspect of it just blows up because they feel free for
real the first time in church.
And so we created Sexual Integrity 101, which is our eight week video course for men andwomen.
so we have four of the videos are, four of the sessions are women teachers and four aremen teachers, but it's the same theme.
(31:51):
We go through the neuroscience, how it impacts your brain, things about the betrayedspouse.
And so I say, equip yourself as a church.
Take Your Leadership Through video series.
We have our new Youth Leader Library for youth pastors or I would say parents too, or ifyou're a baby church that hasn't even started talking about this, just get on it for
yourself for adults.
(32:11):
But it's free and there's lots of videos on there that are three to five minutes about howdo you talk to a student that just disclosed they're struggling with pornography.
This information would be good for main church leaders too because when we go to thechurch as
as betrayed spouses or as struggling spouses and we get just pray more, read more, trustGod and then we do those things and we keep relapsing.
(32:36):
What happens is we believe that either God can't do what he said he was going to do andset us free or we believe there's something wrong with us and our faith.
And so that's just another layer of shame now that we're dealing with.
And it's the head, the hands and the heart.
And as a church, we need to not be afraid to say we need to change our head, our thoughtsand our
and our heart, our beliefs, but also our behaviors.
(32:56):
And it's all three.
It's not just one piece.
And so we need to give our men and women a practical next step, not the whole thing,because it will take a few years of hard work to renew whether you're the the struggler,
the addict or the betrayed.
But if we can be talking about it regularly, let them know it's OK and it's a safe placeand give everybody one next step.
(33:17):
That would be great.
Peer Desire has online groups for men and women.
We have resources for pastors.
getting a list of counselors and therapists and coaches that are actually trained ineither a certified sex addiction therapist or somebody that's betrayal trauma trained and
having that be something so you can at least say, I hear you and I'm so sorry you're goingthrough this and I wanna walk with you as we try to figure out what your next step should
(33:41):
be, can go so far versus, well, all marriages struggle with these kinds of things andmaybe we need to work on our communication and
having sex every 72 hours, like whatever bad advice we may get as somebody in the church.
Yeah.
OK.
And then the next thing I want to ask you is about speaking specifically to those who haveexperienced betrayal trauma.
(34:10):
And so one, I think we've kind of thrown this topic around a little bit.
But I'd love for you to just kind of briefly define it and maybe kind of name somemisconceptions around what it is.
But then speak to that person.
directly about how they can get help.
(34:30):
Yeah, thank you for giving the space to unpack that.
So the Barnett report says that 33 % of spouses say that they are with partner who looksat pornography.
And like I said earlier, I think the number is 46 % say they feel like they've fullyrecovered, which means that over 50 % feel like they're still stuck.
(34:51):
When we feel stuck as a betrayed spouse, we feel fear.
we feel stress.
so what I would want to say is that betrayal trauma is a real thing.
Not every betrayed spouse experiences trauma, but the majority does experience trauma.
if you're under, if you're, if you have a knowledge of PTSD, it's similar in that, in thatyour language center can go offline.
(35:18):
Your, your fight fighter free system is just completely turned on and feeling unsafe.
that whole system that protects us when we're in danger and shuts things down like ourdigestion and different things that we don't need when we're in danger, that can get stuck
on.
And so I see a lot of betrayed spouses that also have chronic illness, struggle withautoimmune disease.
(35:43):
And we also see that can kind of get a little bit better as they're addressing the mind,body, and soul.
And so the biggest thing I can say is betrayal trauma impacts everything.
mind, body, spirit, physical ailments, and they can stay stuck there for as many years asit takes for them to actually pause and unpack that.
(36:06):
And they may learn different ways to cope or to get through life, but the stress of whatthey're carrying is still inside.
And so another little brain thing is that our memories and our feelings are stored next toeach other.
And so as we...
recall memories or maybe we're being triggered by something that we don't recognize.
Like if we found out about an affair when we were at a basketball game, we may not knowthat forever as we enter basketball games that our body is feeling triggered and we might
(36:33):
not ever make that connection unless we pause to unpack the whole narrative of whathappened through discovery and through the lies and the deceptions and the feelings so
that we can then go into a basketball room and say, this is not the same thing thathappened 10 years ago.
I don't have to feel this way.
I can breathe.
I can call it out.
I can speak new truth over myself.
(36:54):
And I can start to neutralize the feelings that are attached with that memory.
And so we can neutralize those feelings by verbally saying something out loud at lights ofdifferent parts of our brain.
And if we're saying in a safe place, then our brain files it back away again with a newsense of truth and awareness and options.
When we have options, it makes us feel like
(37:15):
we can kind of relax a little bit rather than just living in the unknown and the fear ofthat.
And so there's all these processes that we take a betrayed spouse through so that theydon't have to stay stuck in these known or unknown triggers.
Mm Yeah.
Yeah, that's so good.
And then the last group that I actually really would love for you to spend some timetalking to is, is specifically women.
(37:40):
And that is the woman who is listening who maybe has struggled with this past, presently,how what are the steps?
Like practical first steps that you would recommend to that
(38:06):
thing that is preventing them, I think, even taking that first step to getting healed.
So what's a practical first step you would recommend to them to begin their journey ofhealing from whether it's you know, sex addiction or pornography or whatever it might look
like?
(38:27):
Well, I would say if your church is one that offers good programs for sexual addictionrecovery, then sign up for one and just get in and do it.
That is not always going to be people's first step.
If it's available, that's going to be a great first step.
On our website, puredesire.org, you can go to a map and see what churches have groups inyour area and put in your zip code.
(38:49):
And so you can find a local church.
Those don't cost anything except for buying your books.
If that's not an option, there's another tab on our website where you can look at anonline group and join Unraveled, which is managing love, sex, and relationships.
It's for women, and that would be a great group.
If you're not ready to jump in a group, Sexual Integrity 101, that eight-week video courseto give you an understanding of why you're stuck.
(39:14):
If it's been a problem for a while, if it's something you said you never wanted to returnto, but yet you found yourself returning there, if it's hurting yourself or other people,
those are
really great reasons to take a next step.
If you feel like your relationships just continue to fail or there are struggles becausesex addiction is not about sex.
And so even if we're avoiding sex or avoiding intimacy, that could be coming from the sameexact place as somebody who's acting outside.
(39:39):
So getting to the root of that.
So groups, you have a ministry in your church, talk with them.
If you have a counselor who's safe, talk with them, a friend that's safe.
Our podcast is unfiltered, real talk about sex and love.
Even just starting to listen to other questions coming in from women can give you a senseof, I'm not the only one who struggles with this.
(40:01):
And so maybe just starting with the podcast to hear, to hear that you're not alone wouldbe a great step.
But my, those are options.
My number one, one recommendation would be do not go another day without having a plan ofat least sharing it with one safe person who you can say, will you?
walk with me as I try to figure out what my next step is.
(40:24):
Or reaching out to Pure Desire, you can email our groups team, it's just groups atpuredesire.org and say, here's my situation, what's a good starting place for me?
But don't let the time pass, I would just act on that and make sure that you take a nextstep.
Mm.
Mm.
That's so good.
Ashley, thank you so much for this conversation, your openness.
(40:45):
And I just, I'm encouraging all the listeners, especially if this is something you or yourspouse or someone you know is struggling with, and especially if you have kids, have these
conversations now.
I mean, we could, and honestly, Ashley, I kind of want to have you on it again, and maybewe just do a whole conversation about kids.
Because again, I think this is something as a parent of a tween and a young
(41:08):
boy, just, I'm radically passionate about, having these conversations at an early age withour kids.
And so just again, kind of like, what's the saying is like, you want to catch themupstream before they fall in?
You don't want to be downstream when they're, when they're drowning.
I would rather keep them from falling in all together.
(41:31):
especially if you're a parent, get some of these resources.
I'll have links in the show notes.
And Ashley, thank you so much for this conversation and just for the work that you aredoing and Pure Desire is doing to help people be free.
Yeah, thank you so much for just creating this space to have this conversation.
(41:52):
think this is exactly what we need to be doing more of is just bringing this to light.
Amen.
Amen.
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