January 8, 2025 • 60 mins
Happy New Year! I’m SO excited to be back with you all and to kick off the year by welcoming back an incredible returning guest, Ian Morgan Cron. If you haven’t had a chance to catch his previous episode, you might recognize him as the author of The Road Back to You, or as the host of the popular Typology podcast.
Ian is a psychotherapist, an Enneagram teacher, an Episcopal priest and the author of several other books. His new book releases at the end of this month, called, The Fix: How the Twelve Steps Offer a Surprising Path of Transformation for the Well-Adjusted, the Down-and-Out, and Everyone in Between.
I’m thrilled to have him back on the show to share his heart behind this book and how everyone, no matter where they are in life, can benefit from the twelve steps. This conversation is rich, deep, and packed with insights you won’t want to miss!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Okay, Ian, we're recording.
Welcome to the show, my old friend, as I just stated, since we go way back to like, well,a couple years ago, you came on the show and then I've been on your show.
like, we are at this point, old friends.
We are podcast pals.
Ian, how are you?
Thanks so much for being here.
I'm really wonderful.
(00:23):
Life is just continuing to unfold as a great adventure and yeah, I'm stoked to spend sometime with you.
I love it.
Well, I mentioned this to you and my listeners know that when I have a guest on for thesecond time, which is not as, I mean, it's getting to be a little bit more common of an
(00:43):
experience at this point, you know, with having done this show for eight years, likeeventually, you know, people are going to come on more than once.
but it still is a little bit more of a rare occasion.
And so to commemorate the occasion, I always welcome my guests and I have them give a 201,but then I present them with a very, very special gift.
(01:05):
And that is, I don't know if you're a fan of Saturday Night Live, I'm a fan of SaturdayNight Live, but there's a tradition on Saturday Night Live when somebody hosts five times,
they get inducted into the five timers club and they receive a velvet jacket.
that has a number five on it and all of that.
Like Steve Martin often presents it.
And so here on the show, you are being presented with a very imaginary velvet jacket.
(01:30):
Steve Martin, just imagine Steve Martin is presenting it to you, Ian.
It is an imaginary velvet jacket with my face on it.
And it's the Can I Laugh on Your Shoulder Two Timers Club.
imaginary velvet jacket someday it will be real.
for now you just I'm presenting you with the imaginary Steve Mill.
(01:52):
I'm sorry, Steve Martin is presenting you with the imaginary velvet jacket.
So just say congratulations.
Thank you so much.
will imagine putting it on as we speak.
Yes, and it's whatever color you want it to be some guests want it to be like magentafuchsia I've had a couple say like like sequin With velvet, you know, so it's it's really
(02:14):
up to you.
It's your style preference.
So You know anyway It's always just a fun thing that we do to commemorate your welcomingback on the show So and then the second thing is for you
to give me the EN 201.
So give me the EN 201.
what you do, what you've been doing since we last chatted, I don't even know if that waslike pre-pandemic, might have been pre-pandemic, I don't even know.
(02:43):
So what all has been going on and what's on the docket for you right now?
Yeah, wow.
So, I mean, so much.
I mean, my work with the Enneagram continues, typology, my podcast continues, coaching,you know, sort of therapeutically informed coaching with people, songwriting.
(03:04):
I've been doing some songwriting.
I know, I know.
Did you know that I used to be a songwriter?
Okay.
I know that I think you, we had a conversation the last time about you being a musician atsome point, but I don't know that you were a songwriter.
So can you tell me a little bit more about your current songwriting endeavors?
(03:25):
yeah, like I just did a couple of, co-writes with great, great artists.
but all for like Netflix shows, you know, like that kind of stuff.
so sinks.
Yeah, we don't, I mean, the, we've been writing for Netflix shows.
were waiting for cuts.
(03:48):
but you know, you just show up in the barn and you get to work and you know,
put it in the library and hopefully one gets picked up.
So that's the kind of, mean, it's not my living anymore.
So it's just like fun.
It's like, avocational.
is this just like a passion project type thing?
I mean, that just sounds so fun.
What a dream.
It is.
It's really fun.
(04:08):
And it's like Stokes a whole like artistic funny bone for me that that needs to be likepaid attention to.
So so I've been doing that, moved into and renovating a new well, actually a very oldhome.
And, you know, I've got this new book, The Fix.
(04:29):
And right now that is the sole focus of my attention is getting word out about that book,which I'm really stoked.
Well, I am so excited about this.
also just congratulations on all those things.
So many fun things.
But I have been looking forward to this book coming out since I guess last spring, youmentioned it to me when I was on your show just before we were recording.
(04:53):
You were like, yeah, we got to we got to talk about that next year.
And now the time is here.
But I mean, it's just crazy.
But it's called for the listeners.
called The Fix.
And it is out January 28th.
And it is how the 12 steps.
offer a surprising path of transformation for the well-adjusted, the down and out, andeveryone in between.
And as somebody who grew up the daughter of two alcoholics, recovering alcoholics, and whogrew up attending AA meetings on a regular basis, I'm incredibly excited about this book.
(05:28):
And I've already had a chance to dig into it some.
I have not finished it yet, but I'm mostly there.
And it is it's phenomenal and so we're kind of deep get deep down into the the depths ofthe questions that I kind of have and what I wanted to talk with you about I would love
for you to kind of just give the overarching kind of what I call the 36,000 foot view ofWhere this book came from for you?
(05:55):
Why you wanted to write it why you felt like this was the time for it?
And just the genesis of it so to speak
Yeah, so I've been around 12 step recovery rooms for since 1987.
And so I'm really familiar with the 12 steps.
And what I wanted to have happen was for people to realize that, you know, they couldderive the same benefits from living a life organized around the 12 steps that people in
(06:22):
the rooms of recovery experience every day.
Right.
It's like the 12 steps are not just for alcoholics, drug addicts, overeaters, gamblers,spenders, shoppers or whatever.
12 step program you happen to be in.
Like, first of all, everybody's on the addiction continuum somewhere.
And everybody can, you know, like experience the same liberation, joy, freedom andhappiness that that people that self identify as addicts or alcoholics do.
(06:52):
And like, I just wanted to democratize them.
I wanted people to know what I know.
And I'm
so excited for people to realize that what's going on maybe in their church basements isreally magical and that the people upstairs could get as much from what's going on
downstairs as anybody.
In fact, they probably really, at the very least, need to know about it, right?
(07:15):
Like it's, everybody should be like familiar with the 12 steps and hopefully practicingthem.
Yes.
Okay.
So for people, I feel like we need to kind of give like a foundation here.
We're going to build a house together, so to speak.
You're renovating a house right now, so we're going to build a house.
For the people that have not, like you and me, been surrounded by 12-step programs, canyou kind of give just briefly the 12 steps of what they are and why they are important?
(07:45):
Because I feel like that's going to help us just give that good foundation for this.
I'm going to go million miles an hour just for the sake of efficiency.
so steps, the way I break down the steps is to say that steps one to three are aboutgetting your relationship with God straightened out.
Right.
And then steps four to seven are about getting your relationship with yourselfstraightened out.
(08:11):
Steps eight and nine are about getting your relationship with other people straightenedout.
And then steps 10 to 12 are about how to
create or cultivate a lifestyle that supports growth and health in each of those domainsof your life moving forward.
So steps one to three are we admitted we were powerless over alcohol, but you can insertwhatever your particular addiction or your self-destructive behavior or whatever in there
(08:39):
that our lives have become unmanageable to is came to believe that a power greater thanourselves could restore us to sanity.
Three is made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as weunderstood him.
Four is made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Five is admitted to God, to ourselves, to another human being the exact nature of ourwrongs.
(09:02):
Six is we're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
Seven, humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings.
Eight, made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to themall.
Nine.
Made direct amends to such people wherever possible except one to do so would injure themor others.
10.
(09:22):
Continue to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11.
Is sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as weunderstood him.
Praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out.
And then 12.
Is having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps.
We tried to carry this message to our fellow sufferers if you will.
(09:46):
and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
So that's a very quick rundown of the steps.
So good.
And I yeah, I mean, I've heard them 10,000 times in my life and they're hit every singletime.
Well, you've kind of alluded to this and in your book, you risk you describe addiction andI love that you said this first in that step one is like admitting you were powerless over
(10:14):
alcohol.
But again, you can kind of insert whatever here and so you describe
addiction as a response to the big ache.
And this is something you talk about in the book.
And it's this big ache of living in a broken world.
And so if the ache itself cannot be fixed, what is the balance between accepting it?
(10:37):
So accepting we were powerless over whatever and working to actually heal from it?
Yeah, so it's not a binary issue, right?
Like there's a kind of funny marriage or twinning of those two things.
know, powerlessness is initially in the 12 steps is just to say, I'm powerless to stopthis compulsive behavior that has a mood altering effect and negative consequences.
(11:10):
You know what I mean?
So if you're a workaholic,
And you get a mood altering effect from success and money and income and bonuses and justbeing needed and wanted and busy And that has negative consequences like you're you know
You're not spending enough time with your family your health is in in peril because youwork too much, etc Right, like you know you and your powerless over you just can't stop
(11:32):
right like and you're trying to fix a big ache inside Apart from God
Right.
You're just trying to make life more tolerable apart from any involvement from God.
Right.
So it's your little fix.
Right.
For the problem.
And what I'm saying is that, you you initially say I'm powerless over that.
(11:53):
And then once you get into the steps, you start to realize, wait a minute, I'm pretty muchpowerless over mostly everything in life.
You know what I mean?
Like you just have this realization like, wait a minute.
It's not just about my workaholism or my overeating or my this.
It's like, I'm pretty much powerless over everything.
And when that happens, there's this kind of incredible relief and weight that comes offyour shoulders.
(12:15):
It's like, someone else is going to take care of this, you know, and that's what the next,you know, and then as you go through the steps, they build one on top of the other until
it creates a new house in which you can live.
Yeah, that's so good.
You know, you also you kind of catalog this list of modern addictions and it's kind offrom, you know, Netflix to people pleasing to workaholism to, you know, just anything.
(12:50):
I almost like was kind of thinking about like a like an addiction Olympics.
So like, don't know, Diction Olympics.
What do you feel like humanity as a whole is going to consistently meddle in?
what a great question, Molly.
(13:12):
that's yummy.
All right.
So all right.
Well, a couple of things like one would be control.
Ooh, yes.
everybody is addicted to their need to subtly or not so subtly try to control people,places or things.
(13:33):
it invariably lands up making their lives and the lives of others very uncomfortable.
Have you read, not to interrupt you, but have you read The Cost of Control by SharonHottie Miller?
No, but I love the title.
Yes, it's so good.
You should 100 % read it.
(13:53):
I'm not just biased because Sharon is my friend, but it's called The Cost of Control.
it's basically like why we crave it.
The, the, why we crave I can't remember this, but it's like, and the power that Godactually like gives us.
But one of the things that she talks about, she all harkens it back, control as an issueto,
(14:15):
you know how, the anxiety that it causes for us.
Control actually like fuels our anxiety.
But she hearkens it back all to Genesis 3.
And when we went for that apple, that was this seeking of control and how it actually likewhen we want to control our spouse, when we want to control our kids, like it's all about
(14:35):
image management.
And it actually in the end, like it's going to cost us.
It's going to cost us a break in that relationship.
It's going to cost us.
you know, conflict.
It's going to cost us all of these things and it's going to just fuel our anxiety.
But as you were talking about that, just immediately reminded me of that.
And so I felt like I needed to tell you that you need to go get that book.
So this is really good.
(14:56):
Yes.
all right.
So then the other one is everybody's addicted to playing God, which is sort of a variationon a theme of control, but it's actually even more broad, right?
It's like everyone's addicted to this game of trying to bolster their own ego and to playGod and to be like the the star, the director and the producer of their of the little
(15:19):
movie called titled My Life.
And they just want to, you know, play God.
And so
You know, this is just basic.
Like if you're, if you are a person of faith, this is just like Bible one-on-one stuff,right?
But people actually don't actually wrestle with it.
Like it's like, yeah.
Okay.
I will give my assent to that theological idea, but there's actually no, they don't have aplan, right?
(15:43):
Like they don't have a plan.
like what am going to do?
How can I engage in this process of transformation?
And that's what the 12 steps give, right?
It's like,
I went to a meeting, a 12 step meeting this morning and someone said, you know, until Igot here, I didn't have a plan.
Like I just I love those meetings because you've been to a bite.
Like the best stuff gets said.
(16:04):
I say I hear stuff in those meetings all the time.
I'm like, whoa, like I've been to seminary twice.
I have two seminary degrees.
I've been to so many three times.
Right.
I'm like just a thesis short of a of a doctorate.
And I'm like, why didn't anyone else ever say that to me in this 19 year old over here ina leather jacket and
you know, chaps just said something the most amazing thing I've ever heard.
(16:25):
And, know, the, the 12 steps offer people of faith or not a faith for that matter, planfor experiencing transformation at the deepest levels of their person.
Yeah.
Well, and as you're talking, and especially as you're talking about control and playingGod, this addiction to these things that even if people don't explicitly realize or name
(16:48):
them, I mean, think we could really, if we really wanted to tease this out, I think youcan really take every single addiction that people struggle with and you can boil it down
to probably one of those two things.
where they feel out of control because of some other big ache in their life, or they feelout of control because of X, Y, Z, or their, and they, and so in turn, as a form of
(17:12):
control, they're turning and they're like, well, I can open this bottle because I cancontrol that, or I'm gonna open up social media and I'm gonna scroll for hour, and even
though they can't actually control it, they feel like it's this, it's giving them thatdopamine of,
I feel good.
So I feel safe and I feel in control, even though it's actually doing the opposite.
(17:33):
And it's just, I had never really thought about that till as you're saying that I'm like,I think that that's really just at the root of all of it.
Yeah, you know, the 12 steps really paint this incredible picture of the human person andthey give you this ability to do the work in a way that doesn't make a lot of space in the
(17:53):
room for shame.
It's just like, this is the crap humans do.
But there's a solution, as Bill says, the guy who wrote the 12 steps.
And we can avail ourselves of it and experience as much
you know, serenity, peace, okayness in the world as anyone is entitled to have, you know,it's like there's there's no solution to the big ache ultimately.
(18:19):
Right.
I mean, there's, you know, except death.
Death is the really big solution to the big ache.
And so, you know, but we can live in a way that we regard it differently.
Right.
live in a peaceful way with what's true about the world.
(18:42):
And the steps have taught me how to do that.
Yeah.
Well, and then kind of, you know, as we tease it out even further, you even say thatdenial itself is an addiction.
So we have these addictions to control, playing God, to all of these things, you know,that we've all gold-medaled in.
Like, let's be honest.
(19:03):
And if you're listening right now and you're like, but I haven't gold-medaled in playingGod or control.
So let me let us introduce you to the next addiction that you you talk about in your book,which is denial and You say that denial is this addiction that kind of slinks around in
our psyches And so I'm curious for you What has been a way that denial has?
(19:31):
Slinked around in your own psyche and kind of dressed itself up in your life.
And how did you finally recognize it?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, and you know what's so interesting?
People who say, you know, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a very controlling person.
I'm like, really?
Well, do you ever use your passivity as a way to control other people?
(19:52):
Cause some people are like, I just think of aggressive, assertive people that arecontrolling.
And I'm like, no, some of the most controlling people I know are the sweetest, kindestpeople who are always accommodating other people's wishes and being, you know, it's like,
no, you're actually doing that in a way that's really calculated and manipulating.
And, you know, and so maybe you ought to look at your your kind of like denial about that.
(20:14):
So, you know, you know, these problems come in like sometimes they come wearing likedisguises, you know, it's like and you don't recognize them for what they are.
Yeah, they get dressed up.
So, you know, for me, I mean, the good thing about here's the really the great thing aboutbeing an alcoholic or drug addict, right?
(20:36):
It's like eventually your problem becomes public and everybody kind of goes, you'rescrewed up and you need help.
And then they send you off somewhere where you can work on yourself for 30, 60, 90 daysand really get your life back together.
Right.
That's actually a gift.
We call that the gift of desperation.
Denial gets stripped away.
And you're like, I'm screwed.
(20:56):
Right.
And, and, you know, I really feel sorry for people who have secret addictions andcompulsions that they can't shake.
And they're just.
like Thoreau says, living lives of quiet desperation.
And there's really no quote unquote treatment center for workaholics or treatment centerfor, you I mean, they are expanding these things, but honestly, but the good news is, is
(21:20):
that people can take advantage of the steps and work on those things.
And actually I would say, even if you're somebody that's like, you know, fairly low on theaddiction continuum, or maybe you don't, you're just not convinced at all.
I'm just telling you the steps will make a big difference in your life as well.
Right, right.
Well, and I think that that actually leads kind of to the one of the things I wanted toask you about.
(21:42):
that's you talk about, I mean, obviously in step four, which you named earlier, you know,it calls for that searching the fearless moral inventory, which you refer to as hugging
the cactus, which I love that imagery so much.
Like it's just it's so good.
(22:04):
And so I kind of have a two part question here.
So the first part is really like, what would your be your convincing argument for whyeveryone needs to hug a cactus?
And, you know, especially for some of that maybe think they're like, well, my addiction islike, not that bad.
Like, it's like, it's not bad enough to need a 12 step program.
(22:28):
Like, why do you think everyone needs to do that step forward that hugging that cactus?
But then kind of my, second part of my question is,
for you what has been an unexpected kind of insight or something that you've gained fromhugging your own inner cactus.
(22:50):
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, if I forget the second one, remind me when we get to it.
All right.
So, why is it important to hug the cactus?
Well, you know, here's one reason, you know, all human beings have parts of themselvesthat they have, deemed unacceptable and amputated and put into what we call the shadow.
(23:14):
They just don't want to look at it, you know,
I'm a jealous person.
I'm an envious person.
Just things about themselves they don't want to acknowledge.
And the problem is, is those things will end up because they're not facing them andaddressing them, governing their lives from the shadows.
Right.
It doesn't mean they go away.
It just means they go underground and they're still operating and in ways that you don'tsee or appreciate the gravity of.
(23:39):
Right.
So when we do a
of searching and fearless moral inventory.
What we're doing is in a non blaming, non shaming kind of dispassionate way saying, OK,what's the truth about my life?
Because the the the one thing that stands between you and you're becoming the person youwant to become is the truth.
Yes.
(24:00):
Yes.
Yeah.
you're going to have to go inside and go, yeah, you know what?
I am a person who struggles with codependency and I am a people pleaser and I'm going tohave to, you and the list, you know, and you're to have to go in there and make a catalog
of what's going on.
And, and that's called hugging the cactus, right?
That's, that's where you're like, I really don't want to look at this, but I'm going tohave to actually accept all the unacceptable parts of myself in order to get well.
(24:29):
And this is the key, right?
It's like it's not to blame or shame.
It's to say welcome home to all these pieces that have been running your life anyway fromthe shadows and to say, I we need to work together here, you know, and to be able to lead
them in a new way.
But but the parts of you that you have rejected all your life, all the quote unquotecrappy, sinny stuff going on in there is actually still at work.
(24:54):
And until you welcome at home and accept the unacceptable about yourself.
You will never accept that you've been accepted by God.
And that's really important work.
Man, that's so good.
One thing before I actually get to that, reminding you about that second part of thatquestion, just as you were talking, so I started seminary.
(25:20):
I'm in seminary for the first time, not the third.
So yeah, I started seminary in September.
And one of the classes that we're taking is a spiritual formation class, mentoredformation.
And I will tell you, this class, going into it, I really had no idea what I was to expect.
And I will tell you, I'm hugging my cactus a lot.
(25:43):
And I'm telling you, like, it's really, really powerful.
there's a couple pieces to this that I think have been really interesting.
And one, an exercise that we've had to do is as we've kind of engaged some of our learningpractices this semester, as we've kind of looked at different formation needs, and whether
it's humility or awareness of God's presence in our life or whatever it is.
(26:08):
we've had to kind of recall and reflect as we're doing it.
And one of the things that one of the professors talked about is like, if you don't do itright while you're in the midst of it, and I had never really heard of this, but it makes
total sense.
And for some listening are probably like, yeah, duh, don't you know this?
Well, so our brain has something called recall bias.
(26:30):
And so the recall bias is if you were to...
go through a challenge or do an exercise in growth, whether it's physical, spiritual,mental, emotional, whatever, and you go to reflect on it after the fact.
Your brain is actually wired.
It's something called recall bias.
Your brain is wired in a way to make yourself actually look better and like you did betterthan you actually did.
(27:01):
And so instead, what we have to do is we actually have to journal and recall and reflectwhile we're in the midst of it so that we are fighting against recall bias to be like,
actually didn't do this well, or this was really hard, or I forgot this part, or I justcompletely skipped over this because it was too hard, or whatever it is, because you're
(27:24):
trying to fight against that recall bias.
And so I feel like...
when we do some of these things, when we hug our cactus, like if we actually take the timeto sit down and like you said, like what stands in between us and the growth is the truth
is by actually like sitting and writing it down in the moment to kind of fight againstthat recall bias of like, I'm actually not that bad.
(27:48):
It wasn't that terrible because time and space will give us this, like our brain protectsourselves.
from remembering the really hard, traumatic part of it, whether it was like a big or alittle T trauma, right?
Yes, absolutely.
one of the cool things about the 12 steps is, at least in my experience is, it's not avery shamy experience.
(28:11):
you know, when you actually, like I was taught when I'm doing a fourth step making thismoral inventory, just be kind of like neutral about it.
Like, you know, in the big book of AA, which is sort of the big text that people in theprogram read, it's like,
It's almost like you're a shopkeeper, shopkeeper going through the grocery store andyou're looking at the tomatoes and figuring out which ones are good to sell still and
(28:35):
which are rotten and need to be thrown out.
So I'm just going through and looking at my stuff, right?
All the good and not, and all the great, I mean, all the great and all the not so great,right?
And I'm just saying, this is something I got to work with.
And this is another thing I got to get rid of, you know?
And, and so it wasn't a very shaming experience, you know?
I mean, I guess everyone has a different experience of it, but it,
(28:57):
But it's kind of a safe container to do the work of looking at your stuff and hugging thecactus.
Yeah, that's good.
Have you read the book?
I feel like you probably have but have you read emotionally healthy spirituality by PeteScazzaro?
I just finished that book and now I feel like I just need to keep telling everybody I knowabout it and I need to read it and 17 more times because I do feel like that that book in
(29:21):
general like it especially looks at a lot of the like family of origin stuff and justreally in order to be
spiritually mature, you have to be emotionally mature, which takes time.
a lot of times, kind of this, like hugging the cactus, like that's all a part of growingand emotional maturity in order to grow in spiritual maturity and all of those things.
(29:42):
Because when we don't do that, and we sit in denial, and we sit in control, and we sit inall these things, it just, like you said, it prevents us from growing because we're
ignoring the truth.
So here's just a spiritual maxim, okay?
And you can use this in class.
So actually Calvin begins the institutes with this great statement.
(30:05):
He says, there is no knowledge of God apart from knowledge of self.
So in other words, can't know God unless you know yourself and you can't know yourselfunless you know God.
So it's this kind of a weird kind of setup.
And a lot of people of faith are like, I don't actually want to look at myself.
(30:29):
I just want to get to know God.
So I'm just going to get all this information about God.
And I'm actually going to ignore what's going on inside my life, right in my heart,because actually that's self-absorbed.
That's the excuse.
There's denial.
It's like, no, I'm not supposed to focus on myself.
I'm supposed to focus on Jesus.
It's like, give me a break.
That's called spiritual resistance.
You actually have to do both.
(30:50):
And you won't know God until you know yourself and you won't know yourself until you knowGod.
And so you have to twin both of those.
And like I said, you know, one of the things you just mentioned that can step forward,that's what it does.
Right.
It's like I got to get to know myself.
And then step five is I got to let somebody else know what I found.
Right.
It's like now I got to sit down with somebody and share with them all the nitty grittydetails about what I've discovered about myself and what that does.
(31:19):
And of course, that's just the book of James.
Hello.
That's that's just that's just a matter of saying, look, I actually I don't need to shareeverything there is to know about me with everybody, but I got to share it with somebody.
I got to find somebody with whom I can really do the work of sharing what's what I foundinside.
Because what happens there is you you expel shame.
(31:41):
You find out that you're actually not all that creative and interesting.
You find out that, everybody else does this stuff, too.
or some variation thereof, right?
You discover that, you know, all of the little skeletons in your closet that feels sooverwhelming and you never want to talk to with somebody else about when you do, you
discover, like, I'm just a garden variety center.
(32:05):
Like, and then it's like, that's a relief, you know?
And, you know, people see that and they're like, I don't know if I want to do this work.
It's like, okay, at your peril, you know, you can choose not to do it, but at your peril.
And the beauty of it is that if you do it, there's so much freedom and joy on the otherside.
mean, you must have seen this with your parents, right?
(32:28):
100%.
100%.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, my mom's no longer living, obviously.
So, you know, as a teenager, I definitely got, I think I got it more from my mom as ateenager than I did my dad.
And my dad sometimes listens to the show.
So I think he would probably agree with this.
(32:51):
You know,
My mom and I would really have the conversations where she would open up and be a littlebit more forthcoming in some of her shortcomings.
And she also showed me very early on what it looks like to apologize.
And that is something that I have brought into my own parenting is sometimes if I screwup, the first thing I do is I go to my kids and I just be like, mom screwed up.
(33:21):
and I'm really sorry and here's how I screwed up and here's why I screwed up and I'masking for your forgiveness and I'm trying to then teach that to them.
Yeah, that's step nine.
Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injurethem or others.
This is called sweeping your side of the street.
Just keep your side of the street clean.
(33:42):
And by the way, we I'm always like people look at me like, wow.
And I'm like, are you reading the same Bible I'm reading?
Like this right there.
It's it's it's just right there.
So why don't you do it?
Right.
And it's not there to make you feel ashamed.
It's not there to make you whatever.
It's just there to give you the life you're meant to live, right?
Like, here's what blows my mind.
(34:02):
If you're in a spiritual formation class, you know this is true, right?
If you went to most churches, and I'll make a guess and say synagogues or wherever youhappen to do your thing, and you say to people sitting in the pew, do you have a plan for
your own transformation?
They would say, well, not really.
It's sort of a vague path.
It's like, go to church, and I go to my small group, and I do this.
(34:26):
And it's like, OK, that's all fine and good.
And I'm all in favor.
Yep, good for you.
But you don't have a plan.
You don't have a plan.
And so it's like, you can expect to get all you can get from it without a plan, which isnot as much as you should.
So the 12 Steps offers us a plan.
(34:47):
That's it.
It's like,
Here's my plan for spiritual growth.
And it's available not just to those kooks who are in the basement and smoking cigarettesin the church parking lot.
It's for me too.
And that's what I want people to get out of it.
Yeah, and it's and it's a journey like it's, you know, my dad, he just celebrated thispast summer, he celebrated 45 years of sobriety, you know, and he still does.
(35:15):
I mean, I feel like every time I talk to him, I'm like, what are you doing?
He's like, I just got off a meeting.
I just got out of a meeting.
Like I'm about to lead a meeting.
I'm like, how many meetings do we like?
He's still in, know, and he's 80.
He, you know, he's still doing this many, many, many times a week.
And
And he regularly talks about how he goes through the steps frequently.
(35:38):
This is not like you get to 12 steps and you're step 12 and you're done.
This is an ongoing process for sure.
yes, layer after layer after layer gets peeled back.
Now, here's the deal.
My sponsor, who I mentioned a lot in the fix, right, because he's a very funny guy, reallyfunny, super funny guy.
And he's as often as the case in the rooms, like people think that when they see thesemeetings on TV, like like in Loudermilk or some other show, and they I have never seen an
(36:07):
accurate depiction of a 12 step meeting on television.
They are the most
They are the most glum, depressing looking group of people you've ever meet, and they'reall sitting around hanging on by their fingernails.
It's like, that is not my experience, right?
In fact, the rooms are filled with laughter.
There's just a lot of joy and laughter in the rooms, right?
Because people have found a common solution and they're like, woo hoo.
(36:29):
And so I'm always amazed that
I forgot where I was going.
You said something that triggered me and then I got off into describing AA meetings.
yeah.
So my sponsor said to me, he goes, you know, Ian, once you've done these steps a while,eventually the numbers fall away and you just start reflexively drawing on the power and
(36:58):
the wisdom in each of the steps as you go through the day.
So, you know, you get up this morning and you're really sad because you're a rotten 20year old.
won't live the life that you want them to live.
You've been doing everything in your power to control them, pressure them subtly, not sosubtly, blah, blah, blah.
And then you're like, all right, this is time for a step one.
(37:18):
I am powerless.
I am admitting that I am powerless over my 20 year old that my life has becomeunmanageable, right?
And then the next step is I came to believe that, you know,
In this higher power that can restore me to sanity because right now I'm sitting in thiscar and I'm insane I'm insane about this child, right?
(37:42):
And then the third step I turned my will in my life over to the care of God as Iunderstand him particularly as it relates to my kid I'm just turning my will in my life
and I'm turning that kid's life over to God because I can't control it So and now yourealize that was the first three steps I just did right and you're like, So this extends
well beyond
(38:03):
the addiction, right?
It's a way of life.
It's a way of seeing the world that's utterly different.
It's not just people don't go to 12 step meetings just to figure out how not to drink orhow not to overeat or how not to.
It's like, no, no, I'm I'm here to learn how to live on a spiritual basis so that itrenders my need for these unhealthy fixes unnecessary.
(38:26):
Like I just don't need them anymore because I'm living on a spiritual basis.
and I am applying it in every area of my life.
That's the cool thing about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and I loved that question that you posed about, you, like if you walked into achurch and you asked, do you have a plan for your own transformation?
Because I think I, I mean, truly, when I, until this summer, I can say that in 15 years,14 years of walking with Jesus, like I had never really heard of spiritual formation.
(39:00):
Like I had, it had never been explained to me.
I'd never heard a sermon series on it.
Right.
a small group leader talk about it.
And now I feel like I can't not hear it, especially when I, you know, with emotionallyhealthy spirituality, with your book is talking a lot about that, with John Mark Comer's
practicing the way, and then this spiritual formation class.
(39:22):
Now I feel like it's like all in my face.
But I love that question of do you have a plan?
Because I think it's such a good question for people when they think that especially whenin the, let's just,
speak a little bit more narrowly in the church world.
You know, obviously, we can talk about this and this is applied in anything.
(39:42):
But especially in the church world, I feel like the American gospel, the westernizedgospel also always becomes this thing of, well, you give your life to Jesus and you pray a
prayer and then that's it.
And it's like, no, that's actually not how this works.
I mean, you'll you'll never grow beyond
(40:02):
you know praying a prayer on sunday and so it's like sometimes I see in in a lot of theseand I don't want to sound like i'm dogging on the church because that's not what i'm doing
at all, but I feel like a lot of times for years we always saw like we had 25 people raisetheir hand this summer and we had know 18 people get baptized and we had and we're just
like focusing on these numbers and then it's like Okay, well then what happened to thosepeople after they raised their hand and they prayed a prayer what happened to those people
(40:29):
after?
they got baptized.
Like, did you help them walk in their new spiritual journey?
Like, did you help them create a plan for transformation?
Like, did you point them in a direction of like what it actually looks like to be adisciple?
And that, a lot of it is gonna all boil down to back to what we were saying before ishugging the cactus is like digging into admitting, yes, like we can say, I admit I'm a
(40:54):
sinner in need of a savior.
Okay, name some of that stuff.
Because then when you name it and you speak it out loud of like, here's the stuff that isdeep within me that is actually like really need of a savior, like not just I got drunk
last night or I lied or I cheated or whatever it is, like naming that like surface levelsin and I'm in need of a savior because of that surface level sin.
(41:20):
No, no, no.
Let's actually identify like the root brokenness that is in there because that's when youactually can heal, right?
Yeah.
So most people of faith, they get, they get two things, two ideas confused.
One is they're living more by reformation than transformation.
(41:41):
So reformation is when you're just trying to fix yourself with your unaided willpower,right?
It's like, okay, I'm going to start drinking.
I start dragging.
I'm to stop doing this.
I'm going to start being nice.
And basically it's like, they're just trying really hard.
to be good.
does that make sense?
And of course, then they're never enough because they're, know, because good luckovercoming that stuff on your own, donated willpower.
(42:06):
Good luck.
Like you can't, you cannot fix yourself.
And so what transformation is what happens when you give God consent to do for you whatyou cannot do for yourself.
Right.
And that's what happens in step six and seven.
That's when you become
willing to have God remove all these defects of character and humbly ask him to removeyour shortcomings.
(42:32):
Most people don't do that.
Most people are like, I'm going to work really hard to overcome my shortcomings.
By the way, who's in control now?
You are still.
You're going to be the author of your own salvation and transformation.
Good luck.
And that actually that actually leads to frustration, resentment, disappointment anddisillusionment in God.
(42:55):
What you really need to do is figure out.
And again, the 12 steps show a way to do this to say, you know what, God, I'm powerless.
I am powerless over my envy, over my codependency, over my anxiety, over my.
I can't fix this stuff.
I'm I'm as a friend of mine once said, had there was a guy who came into a meeting notlong ago and he just he was brand new and he goes, I'm here because I'm out of ammo.
(43:24):
And.
You know what?
Everybody who walks into a church every Sunday, the first thing you should say, we shouldhave a little liturgy that begins with, hello God, I'm out of ammo.
Man, my gosh, that's so good.
Right.
I'm out of ammo.
That's why I'm here.
You know what I'm saying?
And and then what happens is that God is like, great, now I can be in charge and then Ican I can take care of this envy thing and I can take care.
(43:51):
Now I'm not going to admit it.
You know, it's going to take a minute.
But but, you know, turn it over to me and and I can take care of this for you.
And that's opening the heart, opening the heart in the life to transformation.
And that's to me what the gospel is about
Man, that was a whoo that'll preach Ian.
(44:17):
that was good.
know that was like, I mean, man, we boiled down the entire conversation into just that.
That is who that man and I'm gonna say that to my bachelor and be like, Hey, Pastor Keith,next, next Sunday, can you just tell people that they're out of ammo?
It's time for them to admit they out of ammo.
Okay, well, I
I had asked, I feel like there's this still burning thing because I'd asked that secondpart of that question a while ago and I didn't want you to forget about it.
(44:43):
And I feel like we've actually done a really good job of kind of teasing this out.
But I would love for you to just kind of share for you as you have done this work, as youhave hugged the cactus.
What has been an unexpected insight?
for you that has really kind of turned the page on this transformative work and let it notjust be like this reformative work but actually transformative.
(45:10):
Yeah, well stated.
So yeah, there were a lot of things that have come up for me.
One is I've realized just how fundamentally fearful I am.
You know what I mean?
Like so much of my gross behaviors, and we all have gross behaviors, are just fueled byfear.
(45:32):
know, I'm just like, there's always, I said at a meeting the other day, I'm like, youknow,
I feel like, you know that sound you hear when there's like an overhead like fluorescentlight that's buzzing because it's not grounded.
It's like it's always in the background and you just kind of eventually just likeannoying, but it's always there.
That's what anxiety and fear is like in my life.
There's always this, am I going to disappoint somebody?
(45:54):
Am I in trouble?
Am I not doing this right?
It's like, it's always there.
It's like this little voice, right?
And so that was a really big, you know, part of me that I had to take a look at and go.
I really need to take care of that part of my life, you know, or I need, I need to giveGod consent to take care of that part of my life and to become more God reliant than self
reliant.
(46:14):
Cause usually fear is also fueled by this, this, this really scary idea that it's all upto me to fix this, you know?
I mean, another thing that came up was, and this is sort of a derivative of the fear islike, I really worry about what other people think of me.
Like, it's like so weird.
am like, I'm not a young guy and I'm like still in seventh grade.
(46:36):
I'm still in seventh grade.
I'm still, I am, I'm in seventh grade still.
And it's like, you know, in fact, the stuff that ends up on my, like, like my characterdefect list is like stuff that is so old.
It's like, really?
Still?
And it's like, yep, still.
Like I'm still worried about what other people think about me.
And it's like, and it's kooky.
(46:58):
But it's like, OK, I got to hug the cactus.
There it is.
I got to hug that part of myself.
But here's the thing.
You cannot love your you cannot hate yourself into becoming a more loving person like youjust can't.
I've tried right there.
And there's a lot of people of faith out there who have just tried to hate themselves intobecoming better people.
You can't do that.
(47:19):
You can't shame yourself, beat yourself up.
You have to welcome these parts of yourself home and tell them you got that.
that there were that that
All of you is welcome.
You have to receive all of you back to present all of you to God and give God to give Godconsent to heal these parts of you that continue to dog your life.
(47:39):
Yeah.
man, that's so good.
I, my dad always says that, like, I remember asking him a while because like, I'm about toturn 40 and, like I was kind of wrestling with like, I'm actually not afraid of 40.
I'm not like anti turning 40, but I, it's one of those things I'm like, I don't feel 40.
Like I don't, I don't feel mentally 40.
(48:00):
I don't feel like I look 40.
I don't feel like, like when I think back to when I was a kid and I thought of 40 yearolds, like they just like looked.
You know, like always like Home Alone 2, Kevin's mom, Catherine O'Hara, she was 36 whenthey filmed Home Alone 2.
And I'm like, she looks 55.
Like, I understand that the haircuts of the 90s have a lot to do with that.
(48:24):
But also, like when I was a kid, like I looked at Catherine O'Hara in Home Alone 2, and Ithought she was a million years old, and she's four years younger than me now.
So that's like a very jarring
reality to come to grips with.
But I asked my dad this.
said, Dad, you know, you just turned 80.
Are you the same way?
Am I going to be like this my entire life when I'm 80?
(48:45):
And he said, mentally, I'm 26.
He said, do not.
He's like, my body feels 80 at times.
And he said, but mentally, I'm 26.
That's where I am.
And so it's just kind of interesting how you said, just feel like I still struggle withsometimes things that I struggled with in middle school.
and it's like, how does this, how does this continue to plague us?
(49:06):
But you know, that's what's so great in the book.
talk, there's a workbook that comes with it because, not everybody's ready to go to a 12step meeting.
mean, granted, I'm hoping that somebody who has a drinking problem or a drug problem or amajor overeating problem or a gambling problem, I hope they read the book and get a lot
out of it and go find a 12 step community to find healing.
But not everybody's ready to do that.
Right.
Although I think everybody should go to Al-Anon or Codependency Anonymous.
(49:29):
I think everybody's a candidate for those two.
But but I digress.
All right.
So so
You know, I'm hoping that people will say, I really want to do these 12 steps, but I needa community to do it with because to do it alone, yeah, you'll derive benefit, but not as
(49:50):
much as you will from doing it with four or five friends, you know, for a couple of weeksand using the workbook and doing the work.
Because what happens in the rooms is we share these things about who we are and actually.
It's like really freeing and it's like a very grace filled environment where it's like,well, of course that's what humans do.
Humans do baddie stuff and you do baddie stuff to make your life work.
(50:14):
And actually that baddie stuff ends up causing more problems than the problem it wastrying to solve.
Right.
And so now, you know, there's a different way you can, you know, regard it differently.
So when I look at that stuff that I still do from seventh grade, I don't sit around andgo, I'm such a jerk.
You know, I don't do that.
(50:34):
I'm more like, yeah.
Well, of course.
I mean, that's just I'm a human and humans do that stuff.
And I go to my meetings and I share it and everybody laughs because they do it, too.
And we all are working on it.
It's not like we laugh and then just ignore it.
We laugh because we're working on it.
But Bill W., the author of The Twelve Steps, he has that great expression, right?
You've heard it a million times.
Right.
(50:55):
We are not saints.
The point is we are willing to grow along spiritual lines.
We seek
Progress not perfection and to me that's that's my spiritual life.
I'm seeking progress not perfection
Yeah, yeah.
that's so good.
Yeah.
Fun little side digression.
So we, when I was in, I want to say middle school, could have been late elementary, but Ithink it was middle school.
(51:24):
When my mom was sick, we couldn't really travel like most families did.
We had to travel in a motor home because that was like,
It was like an old like jamboree because you know, then my mom could have all her likemachines and medicines and all that stuff.
And one summer we went up to Vermont and we went to the home of Bill Wilson.
(51:45):
And it's kind of like a, I mean, it's like a place you can visit and long story short, sowe go, you know, that's like what AA families did is they went to the home of Bill Wilson
on like summer vacation.
And so we're at the home and
underneath of there's like this beautiful barn on the property is really beautiful housein Vermont and we went and underneath of this barn there was a cat that had had just had
(52:08):
kittens and I we were I'm you know in middle school so I'm playing with the kittens andthis one little black kitten comes up and kind of like crawls in my lap and the lady there
at the house was like yeah you know this cat was like stray cat and I'm having thesekittens and yada yada yada long story short
the cat went home with us and his name was Wilson.
(52:30):
yeah, so I literally had a cat named after Bill W.
So just find that.
Yeah, yeah.
And so Wilson was our cat.
He and he stayed with us like for a very long time.
I don't even remember when he died.
He lived a long time.
But yeah, so I had a cat named Wilson after Bill Wilson.
(52:51):
I'm actually going to name, you've inspired me to name my next dog, Wilson.
You should you should.
He was a great cat.
He was a great cat.
Yeah.
And then obviously, like I told the story in my book about how I used to, like when I wasin kindergarten, play a meeting with like my Barbies and my bear and like bear would pick
up 30 day chips.
HAHAHAHA
(53:12):
My parents came in my room one day and saw me like literally sitting with my like Barbiesand stuffed animals all in a circle and my mom was like, honey, what are you doing?
And I was like, I'm playing a meeting and like I was like, bear fell off the wagon, likeKen's picking up his 30 day chip, like they're they have an intervention over here for
Barbie.
(53:32):
And I remember at that point, my parents were like, maybe we need to get like a babysitterwhen we go to meetings.
And then I'll tell you one more funny kid AA story.
then when I went to, because I didn't grow up going to church, because AA was like churchfor my parents.
And I went to a Catholic mass.
And I'd never been to a Catholic mass.
(53:52):
And I was with my aunt.
And we were in this big Catholic cathedral.
mean, talking stained glass windows everywhere.
it was time.
It was like the stand up, sit down, stand up, sit down, like all the things.
I'm five and have no idea what's going on.
And then all of sudden they stand up and they say the Lord's Prayer.
(54:13):
And I'm like, I know this part.
Okay.
And so, I mean, I'm holding hands and I'm like saying the Lord's Prayer with like gustoand effort and excitement.
I'm, know, and you know, and for that is the kingdom and the power and the glory for Inever, never.
And, but like in the Catholic Mass, it stops.
(54:36):
And I didn't know it stops.
And so I kept going.
And so I went, keep coming back.
It works if you work it.
And I screamed it.
And I'm shaking the hands.
I mean, it's when I tell you this memory is emblazoned on my brain where the sound of myvoice saying keep coming back.
(55:01):
It works if you work.
It was like ricocheting off of the walls and the wood and the entire
Catholic cathedral like turns around to see like who is this person and then I of course Ihear like some chuckles in the background like clearly some people who go to AA meetings
and I was just mortified and I just remember the the priest being like my piece I give toyou my piece I live like moving on from there so anyway so those are my my childhood AA
(55:33):
stories
you're describing how most AAM meetings end, many do, and what I love about it is if youthink about it, shouldn't church end that way every week?
Keep coming back.
It works if you work it.
Sounds good to me.
(55:53):
mean, you know, by the way, the other day I've got these two coaching clients and one ofthe guys who came to me, I love these two.
He is a, they're both wonderful guys and they are new to faith, right?
And they were praying for one of the first times the other day and one guy goes.
(56:15):
Yeah, God, know, just like, you know, we just pray we have a really like, you know, like,you know, be with Pete and, know, and his problem with his knee and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
And then he gets to end of the prayer and he goes, Yeah, so, yeah, just, you know, blessus today and blah, blah.
And well, anyway, have a good day, And I said to him, I said, I said, brother, I praythat.
(56:43):
From this day forward, you end every prayer with, a good day, God.
Well, have a good day, God.
That is incredible.
I'm gonna start like that.
love it.
I think it's perfect.
Absolutely perfect.
Okay, God, have a good day.
Okay, we'll see ya.
All right.
So like, I can't wait to tell my husband that because like, so my husband, every time, soyou know, he's like tall, deep voice, southern man.
(57:11):
And every time he gets off the phone, like he could be on the phone with the guy from, youknow, the bank.
Like it could be just a complete stranger.
Every time my husband gets off the phone with someone, does not matter if it's his motheror if it's the guy at the bank, he hangs up with, we'll see ya.
And so it always cracks me up because I'm like, really?
Are you going to see the guy at the bank?
(57:32):
Like, are you going to see?
Are you going to see him?
Because he's always like, all right, well, we'll see.
I like that's how he hangs up.
And so I'm like, that's how you need to start praying.
Like when you close a prayer with God, he's like, all right, amen.
We'll see.
Ha
All right, we'll see.
it's so good.
so good.
my gosh.
I have like 700 more questions I want to ask you, Ian, and we're out of time.
(57:54):
But I loved this so much.
I just felt like I got a lot out of this conversation.
I hope people listening, I know that if they keep coming back, they listen to this again.
It's going to work if they work it.
But really, thank you for just for what you're doing with this book.
And I just.
really pray, like you said, that it gets in the hands of not just people who, yes, I hopeit gets in the hands of some alcoholics and some drug addicts and some people who need to
(58:20):
get into the doors of a 12-step program, but I really hope that everybody reading it justbegins to employ those steps in their own life as a path of transformation and not just
reformation.
man, it's just so good.
Ian, thank you so much for being here.
man, it was such a delight, Molly.
You brightened up my morning and made me laugh and that's always a good, good thing.
(58:45):
Well, thank you.
And until next time, when you get another velvet jacket of a different kind.
Mmm, yummy!
Okay, Ian, we're recording.
Welcome to the show, my old friend, as I just stated, since we go way back to like, well,a couple years ago, you came on the show and then I've been on your show.
like, we are at this point, old friends.
We are podcast pals.
Ian, how are you?
Thanks so much for being here.
I'm really wonderful.
(00:23):
Life is just continuing to unfold as a great adventure and yeah, I'm stoked to spend sometime with you.
I love it.
Well, I mentioned this to you and my listeners know that when I have a guest on for thesecond time, which is not as, I mean, it's getting to be a little bit more common of an
(00:43):
experience at this point, you know, with having done this show for eight years, likeeventually, you know, people are going to come on more than once.
but it still is a little bit more of a rare occasion.
And so to commemorate the occasion, I always welcome my guests and I have them give a 201,but then I present them with a very, very special gift.
(01:05):
And that is, I don't know if you're a fan of Saturday Night Live, I'm a fan of SaturdayNight Live, but there's a tradition on Saturday Night Live when somebody hosts five times,
they get inducted into the five timers club and they receive a velvet jacket.
that has a number five on it and all of that.
Like Steve Martin often presents it.
And so here on the show, you are being presented with a very imaginary velvet jacket.
(01:30):
Steve Martin, just imagine Steve Martin is presenting it to you, Ian.
It is an imaginary velvet jacket with my face on it.
And it's the Can I Laugh on Your Shoulder Two Timers Club.
imaginary velvet jacket someday it will be real.
for now you just I'm presenting you with the imaginary Steve Mill.
(01:52):
I'm sorry, Steve Martin is presenting you with the imaginary velvet jacket.
So just say congratulations.
Thank you so much.
will imagine putting it on as we speak.
Yes, and it's whatever color you want it to be some guests want it to be like magentafuchsia I've had a couple say like like sequin With velvet, you know, so it's it's really
(02:14):
up to you.
It's your style preference.
So You know anyway It's always just a fun thing that we do to commemorate your welcomingback on the show So and then the second thing is for you
to give me the EN 201.
So give me the EN 201.
what you do, what you've been doing since we last chatted, I don't even know if that waslike pre-pandemic, might have been pre-pandemic, I don't even know.
(02:43):
So what all has been going on and what's on the docket for you right now?
Yeah, wow.
So, I mean, so much.
I mean, my work with the Enneagram continues, typology, my podcast continues, coaching,you know, sort of therapeutically informed coaching with people, songwriting.
(03:04):
I've been doing some songwriting.
I know, I know.
Did you know that I used to be a songwriter?
Okay.
I know that I think you, we had a conversation the last time about you being a musician atsome point, but I don't know that you were a songwriter.
So can you tell me a little bit more about your current songwriting endeavors?
(03:25):
yeah, like I just did a couple of, co-writes with great, great artists.
but all for like Netflix shows, you know, like that kind of stuff.
so sinks.
Yeah, we don't, I mean, the, we've been writing for Netflix shows.
were waiting for cuts.
(03:48):
but you know, you just show up in the barn and you get to work and you know,
put it in the library and hopefully one gets picked up.
So that's the kind of, mean, it's not my living anymore.
So it's just like fun.
It's like, avocational.
is this just like a passion project type thing?
I mean, that just sounds so fun.
What a dream.
It is.
It's really fun.
(04:08):
And it's like Stokes a whole like artistic funny bone for me that that needs to be likepaid attention to.
So so I've been doing that, moved into and renovating a new well, actually a very oldhome.
And, you know, I've got this new book, The Fix.
(04:29):
And right now that is the sole focus of my attention is getting word out about that book,which I'm really stoked.
Well, I am so excited about this.
also just congratulations on all those things.
So many fun things.
But I have been looking forward to this book coming out since I guess last spring, youmentioned it to me when I was on your show just before we were recording.
(04:53):
You were like, yeah, we got to we got to talk about that next year.
And now the time is here.
But I mean, it's just crazy.
But it's called for the listeners.
called The Fix.
And it is out January 28th.
And it is how the 12 steps.
offer a surprising path of transformation for the well-adjusted, the down and out, andeveryone in between.
And as somebody who grew up the daughter of two alcoholics, recovering alcoholics, and whogrew up attending AA meetings on a regular basis, I'm incredibly excited about this book.
(05:28):
And I've already had a chance to dig into it some.
I have not finished it yet, but I'm mostly there.
And it is it's phenomenal and so we're kind of deep get deep down into the the depths ofthe questions that I kind of have and what I wanted to talk with you about I would love
for you to kind of just give the overarching kind of what I call the 36,000 foot view ofWhere this book came from for you?
(05:55):
Why you wanted to write it why you felt like this was the time for it?
And just the genesis of it so to speak
Yeah, so I've been around 12 step recovery rooms for since 1987.
And so I'm really familiar with the 12 steps.
And what I wanted to have happen was for people to realize that, you know, they couldderive the same benefits from living a life organized around the 12 steps that people in
(06:22):
the rooms of recovery experience every day.
Right.
It's like the 12 steps are not just for alcoholics, drug addicts, overeaters, gamblers,spenders, shoppers or whatever.
12 step program you happen to be in.
Like, first of all, everybody's on the addiction continuum somewhere.
And everybody can, you know, like experience the same liberation, joy, freedom andhappiness that that people that self identify as addicts or alcoholics do.
(06:52):
And like, I just wanted to democratize them.
I wanted people to know what I know.
And I'm
so excited for people to realize that what's going on maybe in their church basements isreally magical and that the people upstairs could get as much from what's going on
downstairs as anybody.
In fact, they probably really, at the very least, need to know about it, right?
(07:15):
Like it's, everybody should be like familiar with the 12 steps and hopefully practicingthem.
Yes.
Okay.
So for people, I feel like we need to kind of give like a foundation here.
We're going to build a house together, so to speak.
You're renovating a house right now, so we're going to build a house.
For the people that have not, like you and me, been surrounded by 12-step programs, canyou kind of give just briefly the 12 steps of what they are and why they are important?
(07:45):
Because I feel like that's going to help us just give that good foundation for this.
I'm going to go million miles an hour just for the sake of efficiency.
so steps, the way I break down the steps is to say that steps one to three are aboutgetting your relationship with God straightened out.
Right.
And then steps four to seven are about getting your relationship with yourselfstraightened out.
(08:11):
Steps eight and nine are about getting your relationship with other people straightenedout.
And then steps 10 to 12 are about how to
create or cultivate a lifestyle that supports growth and health in each of those domainsof your life moving forward.
So steps one to three are we admitted we were powerless over alcohol, but you can insertwhatever your particular addiction or your self-destructive behavior or whatever in there
(08:39):
that our lives have become unmanageable to is came to believe that a power greater thanourselves could restore us to sanity.
Three is made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as weunderstood him.
Four is made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Five is admitted to God, to ourselves, to another human being the exact nature of ourwrongs.
(09:02):
Six is we're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
Seven, humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings.
Eight, made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to themall.
Nine.
Made direct amends to such people wherever possible except one to do so would injure themor others.
10.
(09:22):
Continue to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11.
Is sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as weunderstood him.
Praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out.
And then 12.
Is having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps.
We tried to carry this message to our fellow sufferers if you will.
(09:46):
and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
So that's a very quick rundown of the steps.
So good.
And I yeah, I mean, I've heard them 10,000 times in my life and they're hit every singletime.
Well, you've kind of alluded to this and in your book, you risk you describe addiction andI love that you said this first in that step one is like admitting you were powerless over
(10:14):
alcohol.
But again, you can kind of insert whatever here and so you describe
addiction as a response to the big ache.
And this is something you talk about in the book.
And it's this big ache of living in a broken world.
And so if the ache itself cannot be fixed, what is the balance between accepting it?
(10:37):
So accepting we were powerless over whatever and working to actually heal from it?
Yeah, so it's not a binary issue, right?
Like there's a kind of funny marriage or twinning of those two things.
know, powerlessness is initially in the 12 steps is just to say, I'm powerless to stopthis compulsive behavior that has a mood altering effect and negative consequences.
(11:10):
You know what I mean?
So if you're a workaholic,
And you get a mood altering effect from success and money and income and bonuses and justbeing needed and wanted and busy And that has negative consequences like you're you know
You're not spending enough time with your family your health is in in peril because youwork too much, etc Right, like you know you and your powerless over you just can't stop
(11:32):
right like and you're trying to fix a big ache inside Apart from God
Right.
You're just trying to make life more tolerable apart from any involvement from God.
Right.
So it's your little fix.
Right.
For the problem.
And what I'm saying is that, you you initially say I'm powerless over that.
(11:53):
And then once you get into the steps, you start to realize, wait a minute, I'm pretty muchpowerless over mostly everything in life.
You know what I mean?
Like you just have this realization like, wait a minute.
It's not just about my workaholism or my overeating or my this.
It's like, I'm pretty much powerless over everything.
And when that happens, there's this kind of incredible relief and weight that comes offyour shoulders.
(12:15):
It's like, someone else is going to take care of this, you know, and that's what the next,you know, and then as you go through the steps, they build one on top of the other until
it creates a new house in which you can live.
Yeah, that's so good.
You know, you also you kind of catalog this list of modern addictions and it's kind offrom, you know, Netflix to people pleasing to workaholism to, you know, just anything.
(12:50):
I almost like was kind of thinking about like a like an addiction Olympics.
So like, don't know, Diction Olympics.
What do you feel like humanity as a whole is going to consistently meddle in?
what a great question, Molly.
(13:12):
that's yummy.
All right.
So all right.
Well, a couple of things like one would be control.
Ooh, yes.
everybody is addicted to their need to subtly or not so subtly try to control people,places or things.
(13:33):
it invariably lands up making their lives and the lives of others very uncomfortable.
Have you read, not to interrupt you, but have you read The Cost of Control by SharonHottie Miller?
No, but I love the title.
Yes, it's so good.
You should 100 % read it.
(13:53):
I'm not just biased because Sharon is my friend, but it's called The Cost of Control.
it's basically like why we crave it.
The, the, why we crave I can't remember this, but it's like, and the power that Godactually like gives us.
But one of the things that she talks about, she all harkens it back, control as an issueto,
(14:15):
you know how, the anxiety that it causes for us.
Control actually like fuels our anxiety.
But she hearkens it back all to Genesis 3.
And when we went for that apple, that was this seeking of control and how it actually likewhen we want to control our spouse, when we want to control our kids, like it's all about
(14:35):
image management.
And it actually in the end, like it's going to cost us.
It's going to cost us a break in that relationship.
It's going to cost us.
you know, conflict.
It's going to cost us all of these things and it's going to just fuel our anxiety.
But as you were talking about that, just immediately reminded me of that.
And so I felt like I needed to tell you that you need to go get that book.
So this is really good.
(14:56):
Yes.
all right.
So then the other one is everybody's addicted to playing God, which is sort of a variationon a theme of control, but it's actually even more broad, right?
It's like everyone's addicted to this game of trying to bolster their own ego and to playGod and to be like the the star, the director and the producer of their of the little
(15:19):
movie called titled My Life.
And they just want to, you know, play God.
And so
You know, this is just basic.
Like if you're, if you are a person of faith, this is just like Bible one-on-one stuff,right?
But people actually don't actually wrestle with it.
Like it's like, yeah.
Okay.
I will give my assent to that theological idea, but there's actually no, they don't have aplan, right?
(15:43):
Like they don't have a plan.
like what am going to do?
How can I engage in this process of transformation?
And that's what the 12 steps give, right?
It's like,
I went to a meeting, a 12 step meeting this morning and someone said, you know, until Igot here, I didn't have a plan.
Like I just I love those meetings because you've been to a bite.
Like the best stuff gets said.
(16:04):
I say I hear stuff in those meetings all the time.
I'm like, whoa, like I've been to seminary twice.
I have two seminary degrees.
I've been to so many three times.
Right.
I'm like just a thesis short of a of a doctorate.
And I'm like, why didn't anyone else ever say that to me in this 19 year old over here ina leather jacket and
you know, chaps just said something the most amazing thing I've ever heard.
(16:25):
And, know, the, the 12 steps offer people of faith or not a faith for that matter, planfor experiencing transformation at the deepest levels of their person.
Yeah.
Well, and as you're talking, and especially as you're talking about control and playingGod, this addiction to these things that even if people don't explicitly realize or name
(16:48):
them, I mean, think we could really, if we really wanted to tease this out, I think youcan really take every single addiction that people struggle with and you can boil it down
to probably one of those two things.
where they feel out of control because of some other big ache in their life, or they feelout of control because of X, Y, Z, or their, and they, and so in turn, as a form of
(17:12):
control, they're turning and they're like, well, I can open this bottle because I cancontrol that, or I'm gonna open up social media and I'm gonna scroll for hour, and even
though they can't actually control it, they feel like it's this, it's giving them thatdopamine of,
I feel good.
So I feel safe and I feel in control, even though it's actually doing the opposite.
(17:33):
And it's just, I had never really thought about that till as you're saying that I'm like,I think that that's really just at the root of all of it.
Yeah, you know, the 12 steps really paint this incredible picture of the human person andthey give you this ability to do the work in a way that doesn't make a lot of space in the
(17:53):
room for shame.
It's just like, this is the crap humans do.
But there's a solution, as Bill says, the guy who wrote the 12 steps.
And we can avail ourselves of it and experience as much
you know, serenity, peace, okayness in the world as anyone is entitled to have, you know,it's like there's there's no solution to the big ache ultimately.
(18:19):
Right.
I mean, there's, you know, except death.
Death is the really big solution to the big ache.
And so, you know, but we can live in a way that we regard it differently.
Right.
live in a peaceful way with what's true about the world.
(18:42):
And the steps have taught me how to do that.
Yeah.
Well, and then kind of, you know, as we tease it out even further, you even say thatdenial itself is an addiction.
So we have these addictions to control, playing God, to all of these things, you know,that we've all gold-medaled in.
Like, let's be honest.
(19:03):
And if you're listening right now and you're like, but I haven't gold-medaled in playingGod or control.
So let me let us introduce you to the next addiction that you you talk about in your book,which is denial and You say that denial is this addiction that kind of slinks around in
our psyches And so I'm curious for you What has been a way that denial has?
(19:31):
Slinked around in your own psyche and kind of dressed itself up in your life.
And how did you finally recognize it?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, and you know what's so interesting?
People who say, you know, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a very controlling person.
I'm like, really?
Well, do you ever use your passivity as a way to control other people?
(19:52):
Cause some people are like, I just think of aggressive, assertive people that arecontrolling.
And I'm like, no, some of the most controlling people I know are the sweetest, kindestpeople who are always accommodating other people's wishes and being, you know, it's like,
no, you're actually doing that in a way that's really calculated and manipulating.
And, you know, and so maybe you ought to look at your your kind of like denial about that.
(20:14):
So, you know, you know, these problems come in like sometimes they come wearing likedisguises, you know, it's like and you don't recognize them for what they are.
Yeah, they get dressed up.
So, you know, for me, I mean, the good thing about here's the really the great thing aboutbeing an alcoholic or drug addict, right?
(20:36):
It's like eventually your problem becomes public and everybody kind of goes, you'rescrewed up and you need help.
And then they send you off somewhere where you can work on yourself for 30, 60, 90 daysand really get your life back together.
Right.
That's actually a gift.
We call that the gift of desperation.
Denial gets stripped away.
And you're like, I'm screwed.
(20:56):
Right.
And, and, you know, I really feel sorry for people who have secret addictions andcompulsions that they can't shake.
And they're just.
like Thoreau says, living lives of quiet desperation.
And there's really no quote unquote treatment center for workaholics or treatment centerfor, you I mean, they are expanding these things, but honestly, but the good news is, is
(21:20):
that people can take advantage of the steps and work on those things.
And actually I would say, even if you're somebody that's like, you know, fairly low on theaddiction continuum, or maybe you don't, you're just not convinced at all.
I'm just telling you the steps will make a big difference in your life as well.
Right, right.
Well, and I think that that actually leads kind of to the one of the things I wanted toask you about.
(21:42):
that's you talk about, I mean, obviously in step four, which you named earlier, you know,it calls for that searching the fearless moral inventory, which you refer to as hugging
the cactus, which I love that imagery so much.
Like it's just it's so good.
(22:04):
And so I kind of have a two part question here.
So the first part is really like, what would your be your convincing argument for whyeveryone needs to hug a cactus?
And, you know, especially for some of that maybe think they're like, well, my addiction islike, not that bad.
Like, it's like, it's not bad enough to need a 12 step program.
(22:28):
Like, why do you think everyone needs to do that step forward that hugging that cactus?
But then kind of my, second part of my question is,
for you what has been an unexpected kind of insight or something that you've gained fromhugging your own inner cactus.
(22:50):
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, if I forget the second one, remind me when we get to it.
All right.
So, why is it important to hug the cactus?
Well, you know, here's one reason, you know, all human beings have parts of themselvesthat they have, deemed unacceptable and amputated and put into what we call the shadow.
(23:14):
They just don't want to look at it, you know,
I'm a jealous person.
I'm an envious person.
Just things about themselves they don't want to acknowledge.
And the problem is, is those things will end up because they're not facing them andaddressing them, governing their lives from the shadows.
Right.
It doesn't mean they go away.
It just means they go underground and they're still operating and in ways that you don'tsee or appreciate the gravity of.
(23:39):
Right.
So when we do a
of searching and fearless moral inventory.
What we're doing is in a non blaming, non shaming kind of dispassionate way saying, OK,what's the truth about my life?
Because the the the one thing that stands between you and you're becoming the person youwant to become is the truth.
Yes.
(24:00):
Yes.
Yeah.
you're going to have to go inside and go, yeah, you know what?
I am a person who struggles with codependency and I am a people pleaser and I'm going tohave to, you and the list, you know, and you're to have to go in there and make a catalog
of what's going on.
And, and that's called hugging the cactus, right?
That's, that's where you're like, I really don't want to look at this, but I'm going tohave to actually accept all the unacceptable parts of myself in order to get well.
(24:29):
And this is the key, right?
It's like it's not to blame or shame.
It's to say welcome home to all these pieces that have been running your life anyway fromthe shadows and to say, I we need to work together here, you know, and to be able to lead
them in a new way.
But but the parts of you that you have rejected all your life, all the quote unquotecrappy, sinny stuff going on in there is actually still at work.
(24:54):
And until you welcome at home and accept the unacceptable about yourself.
You will never accept that you've been accepted by God.
And that's really important work.
Man, that's so good.
One thing before I actually get to that, reminding you about that second part of thatquestion, just as you were talking, so I started seminary.
(25:20):
I'm in seminary for the first time, not the third.
So yeah, I started seminary in September.
And one of the classes that we're taking is a spiritual formation class, mentoredformation.
And I will tell you, this class, going into it, I really had no idea what I was to expect.
And I will tell you, I'm hugging my cactus a lot.
(25:43):
And I'm telling you, like, it's really, really powerful.
there's a couple pieces to this that I think have been really interesting.
And one, an exercise that we've had to do is as we've kind of engaged some of our learningpractices this semester, as we've kind of looked at different formation needs, and whether
it's humility or awareness of God's presence in our life or whatever it is.
(26:08):
we've had to kind of recall and reflect as we're doing it.
And one of the things that one of the professors talked about is like, if you don't do itright while you're in the midst of it, and I had never really heard of this, but it makes
total sense.
And for some listening are probably like, yeah, duh, don't you know this?
Well, so our brain has something called recall bias.
(26:30):
And so the recall bias is if you were to...
go through a challenge or do an exercise in growth, whether it's physical, spiritual,mental, emotional, whatever, and you go to reflect on it after the fact.
Your brain is actually wired.
It's something called recall bias.
Your brain is wired in a way to make yourself actually look better and like you did betterthan you actually did.
(27:01):
And so instead, what we have to do is we actually have to journal and recall and reflectwhile we're in the midst of it so that we are fighting against recall bias to be like,
actually didn't do this well, or this was really hard, or I forgot this part, or I justcompletely skipped over this because it was too hard, or whatever it is, because you're
(27:24):
trying to fight against that recall bias.
And so I feel like...
when we do some of these things, when we hug our cactus, like if we actually take the timeto sit down and like you said, like what stands in between us and the growth is the truth
is by actually like sitting and writing it down in the moment to kind of fight againstthat recall bias of like, I'm actually not that bad.
(27:48):
It wasn't that terrible because time and space will give us this, like our brain protectsourselves.
from remembering the really hard, traumatic part of it, whether it was like a big or alittle T trauma, right?
Yes, absolutely.
one of the cool things about the 12 steps is, at least in my experience is, it's not avery shamy experience.
(28:11):
you know, when you actually, like I was taught when I'm doing a fourth step making thismoral inventory, just be kind of like neutral about it.
Like, you know, in the big book of AA, which is sort of the big text that people in theprogram read, it's like,
It's almost like you're a shopkeeper, shopkeeper going through the grocery store andyou're looking at the tomatoes and figuring out which ones are good to sell still and
(28:35):
which are rotten and need to be thrown out.
So I'm just going through and looking at my stuff, right?
All the good and not, and all the great, I mean, all the great and all the not so great,right?
And I'm just saying, this is something I got to work with.
And this is another thing I got to get rid of, you know?
And, and so it wasn't a very shaming experience, you know?
I mean, I guess everyone has a different experience of it, but it,
(28:57):
But it's kind of a safe container to do the work of looking at your stuff and hugging thecactus.
Yeah, that's good.
Have you read the book?
I feel like you probably have but have you read emotionally healthy spirituality by PeteScazzaro?
I just finished that book and now I feel like I just need to keep telling everybody I knowabout it and I need to read it and 17 more times because I do feel like that that book in
(29:21):
general like it especially looks at a lot of the like family of origin stuff and justreally in order to be
spiritually mature, you have to be emotionally mature, which takes time.
a lot of times, kind of this, like hugging the cactus, like that's all a part of growingand emotional maturity in order to grow in spiritual maturity and all of those things.
(29:42):
Because when we don't do that, and we sit in denial, and we sit in control, and we sit inall these things, it just, like you said, it prevents us from growing because we're
ignoring the truth.
So here's just a spiritual maxim, okay?
And you can use this in class.
So actually Calvin begins the institutes with this great statement.
(30:05):
He says, there is no knowledge of God apart from knowledge of self.
So in other words, can't know God unless you know yourself and you can't know yourselfunless you know God.
So it's this kind of a weird kind of setup.
And a lot of people of faith are like, I don't actually want to look at myself.
(30:29):
I just want to get to know God.
So I'm just going to get all this information about God.
And I'm actually going to ignore what's going on inside my life, right in my heart,because actually that's self-absorbed.
That's the excuse.
There's denial.
It's like, no, I'm not supposed to focus on myself.
I'm supposed to focus on Jesus.
It's like, give me a break.
That's called spiritual resistance.
You actually have to do both.
(30:50):
And you won't know God until you know yourself and you won't know yourself until you knowGod.
And so you have to twin both of those.
And like I said, you know, one of the things you just mentioned that can step forward,that's what it does.
Right.
It's like I got to get to know myself.
And then step five is I got to let somebody else know what I found.
Right.
It's like now I got to sit down with somebody and share with them all the nitty grittydetails about what I've discovered about myself and what that does.
(31:19):
And of course, that's just the book of James.
Hello.
That's that's just that's just a matter of saying, look, I actually I don't need to shareeverything there is to know about me with everybody, but I got to share it with somebody.
I got to find somebody with whom I can really do the work of sharing what's what I foundinside.
Because what happens there is you you expel shame.
(31:41):
You find out that you're actually not all that creative and interesting.
You find out that, everybody else does this stuff, too.
or some variation thereof, right?
You discover that, you know, all of the little skeletons in your closet that feels sooverwhelming and you never want to talk to with somebody else about when you do, you
discover, like, I'm just a garden variety center.
(32:05):
Like, and then it's like, that's a relief, you know?
And, you know, people see that and they're like, I don't know if I want to do this work.
It's like, okay, at your peril, you know, you can choose not to do it, but at your peril.
And the beauty of it is that if you do it, there's so much freedom and joy on the otherside.
mean, you must have seen this with your parents, right?
(32:28):
100%.
100%.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, my mom's no longer living, obviously.
So, you know, as a teenager, I definitely got, I think I got it more from my mom as ateenager than I did my dad.
And my dad sometimes listens to the show.
So I think he would probably agree with this.
(32:51):
You know,
My mom and I would really have the conversations where she would open up and be a littlebit more forthcoming in some of her shortcomings.
And she also showed me very early on what it looks like to apologize.
And that is something that I have brought into my own parenting is sometimes if I screwup, the first thing I do is I go to my kids and I just be like, mom screwed up.
(33:21):
and I'm really sorry and here's how I screwed up and here's why I screwed up and I'masking for your forgiveness and I'm trying to then teach that to them.
Yeah, that's step nine.
Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injurethem or others.
This is called sweeping your side of the street.
Just keep your side of the street clean.
(33:42):
And by the way, we I'm always like people look at me like, wow.
And I'm like, are you reading the same Bible I'm reading?
Like this right there.
It's it's it's just right there.
So why don't you do it?
Right.
And it's not there to make you feel ashamed.
It's not there to make you whatever.
It's just there to give you the life you're meant to live, right?
Like, here's what blows my mind.
(34:02):
If you're in a spiritual formation class, you know this is true, right?
If you went to most churches, and I'll make a guess and say synagogues or wherever youhappen to do your thing, and you say to people sitting in the pew, do you have a plan for
your own transformation?
They would say, well, not really.
It's sort of a vague path.
It's like, go to church, and I go to my small group, and I do this.
(34:26):
And it's like, OK, that's all fine and good.
And I'm all in favor.
Yep, good for you.
But you don't have a plan.
You don't have a plan.
And so it's like, you can expect to get all you can get from it without a plan, which isnot as much as you should.
So the 12 Steps offers us a plan.
(34:47):
That's it.
It's like,
Here's my plan for spiritual growth.
And it's available not just to those kooks who are in the basement and smoking cigarettesin the church parking lot.
It's for me too.
And that's what I want people to get out of it.
Yeah, and it's and it's a journey like it's, you know, my dad, he just celebrated thispast summer, he celebrated 45 years of sobriety, you know, and he still does.
(35:15):
I mean, I feel like every time I talk to him, I'm like, what are you doing?
He's like, I just got off a meeting.
I just got out of a meeting.
Like I'm about to lead a meeting.
I'm like, how many meetings do we like?
He's still in, know, and he's 80.
He, you know, he's still doing this many, many, many times a week.
And
And he regularly talks about how he goes through the steps frequently.
(35:38):
This is not like you get to 12 steps and you're step 12 and you're done.
This is an ongoing process for sure.
yes, layer after layer after layer gets peeled back.
Now, here's the deal.
My sponsor, who I mentioned a lot in the fix, right, because he's a very funny guy, reallyfunny, super funny guy.
And he's as often as the case in the rooms, like people think that when they see thesemeetings on TV, like like in Loudermilk or some other show, and they I have never seen an
(36:07):
accurate depiction of a 12 step meeting on television.
They are the most
They are the most glum, depressing looking group of people you've ever meet, and they'reall sitting around hanging on by their fingernails.
It's like, that is not my experience, right?
In fact, the rooms are filled with laughter.
There's just a lot of joy and laughter in the rooms, right?
Because people have found a common solution and they're like, woo hoo.
(36:29):
And so I'm always amazed that
I forgot where I was going.
You said something that triggered me and then I got off into describing AA meetings.
yeah.
So my sponsor said to me, he goes, you know, Ian, once you've done these steps a while,eventually the numbers fall away and you just start reflexively drawing on the power and
(36:58):
the wisdom in each of the steps as you go through the day.
So, you know, you get up this morning and you're really sad because you're a rotten 20year old.
won't live the life that you want them to live.
You've been doing everything in your power to control them, pressure them subtly, not sosubtly, blah, blah, blah.
And then you're like, all right, this is time for a step one.
(37:18):
I am powerless.
I am admitting that I am powerless over my 20 year old that my life has becomeunmanageable, right?
And then the next step is I came to believe that, you know,
In this higher power that can restore me to sanity because right now I'm sitting in thiscar and I'm insane I'm insane about this child, right?
(37:42):
And then the third step I turned my will in my life over to the care of God as Iunderstand him particularly as it relates to my kid I'm just turning my will in my life
and I'm turning that kid's life over to God because I can't control it So and now yourealize that was the first three steps I just did right and you're like, So this extends
well beyond
(38:03):
the addiction, right?
It's a way of life.
It's a way of seeing the world that's utterly different.
It's not just people don't go to 12 step meetings just to figure out how not to drink orhow not to overeat or how not to.
It's like, no, no, I'm I'm here to learn how to live on a spiritual basis so that itrenders my need for these unhealthy fixes unnecessary.
(38:26):
Like I just don't need them anymore because I'm living on a spiritual basis.
and I am applying it in every area of my life.
That's the cool thing about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and I loved that question that you posed about, you, like if you walked into achurch and you asked, do you have a plan for your own transformation?
Because I think I, I mean, truly, when I, until this summer, I can say that in 15 years,14 years of walking with Jesus, like I had never really heard of spiritual formation.
(39:00):
Like I had, it had never been explained to me.
I'd never heard a sermon series on it.
Right.
a small group leader talk about it.
And now I feel like I can't not hear it, especially when I, you know, with emotionallyhealthy spirituality, with your book is talking a lot about that, with John Mark Comer's
practicing the way, and then this spiritual formation class.
(39:22):
Now I feel like it's like all in my face.
But I love that question of do you have a plan?
Because I think it's such a good question for people when they think that especially whenin the, let's just,
speak a little bit more narrowly in the church world.
You know, obviously, we can talk about this and this is applied in anything.
(39:42):
But especially in the church world, I feel like the American gospel, the westernizedgospel also always becomes this thing of, well, you give your life to Jesus and you pray a
prayer and then that's it.
And it's like, no, that's actually not how this works.
I mean, you'll you'll never grow beyond
(40:02):
you know praying a prayer on sunday and so it's like sometimes I see in in a lot of theseand I don't want to sound like i'm dogging on the church because that's not what i'm doing
at all, but I feel like a lot of times for years we always saw like we had 25 people raisetheir hand this summer and we had know 18 people get baptized and we had and we're just
like focusing on these numbers and then it's like Okay, well then what happened to thosepeople after they raised their hand and they prayed a prayer what happened to those people
(40:29):
after?
they got baptized.
Like, did you help them walk in their new spiritual journey?
Like, did you help them create a plan for transformation?
Like, did you point them in a direction of like what it actually looks like to be adisciple?
And that, a lot of it is gonna all boil down to back to what we were saying before ishugging the cactus is like digging into admitting, yes, like we can say, I admit I'm a
(40:54):
sinner in need of a savior.
Okay, name some of that stuff.
Because then when you name it and you speak it out loud of like, here's the stuff that isdeep within me that is actually like really need of a savior, like not just I got drunk
last night or I lied or I cheated or whatever it is, like naming that like surface levelsin and I'm in need of a savior because of that surface level sin.
(41:20):
No, no, no.
Let's actually identify like the root brokenness that is in there because that's when youactually can heal, right?
Yeah.
So most people of faith, they get, they get two things, two ideas confused.
One is they're living more by reformation than transformation.
(41:41):
So reformation is when you're just trying to fix yourself with your unaided willpower,right?
It's like, okay, I'm going to start drinking.
I start dragging.
I'm to stop doing this.
I'm going to start being nice.
And basically it's like, they're just trying really hard.
to be good.
does that make sense?
And of course, then they're never enough because they're, know, because good luckovercoming that stuff on your own, donated willpower.
(42:06):
Good luck.
Like you can't, you cannot fix yourself.
And so what transformation is what happens when you give God consent to do for you whatyou cannot do for yourself.
Right.
And that's what happens in step six and seven.
That's when you become
willing to have God remove all these defects of character and humbly ask him to removeyour shortcomings.
(42:32):
Most people don't do that.
Most people are like, I'm going to work really hard to overcome my shortcomings.
By the way, who's in control now?
You are still.
You're going to be the author of your own salvation and transformation.
Good luck.
And that actually that actually leads to frustration, resentment, disappointment anddisillusionment in God.
(42:55):
What you really need to do is figure out.
And again, the 12 steps show a way to do this to say, you know what, God, I'm powerless.
I am powerless over my envy, over my codependency, over my anxiety, over my.
I can't fix this stuff.
I'm I'm as a friend of mine once said, had there was a guy who came into a meeting notlong ago and he just he was brand new and he goes, I'm here because I'm out of ammo.
(43:24):
And.
You know what?
Everybody who walks into a church every Sunday, the first thing you should say, we shouldhave a little liturgy that begins with, hello God, I'm out of ammo.
Man, my gosh, that's so good.
Right.
I'm out of ammo.
That's why I'm here.
You know what I'm saying?
And and then what happens is that God is like, great, now I can be in charge and then Ican I can take care of this envy thing and I can take care.
(43:51):
Now I'm not going to admit it.
You know, it's going to take a minute.
But but, you know, turn it over to me and and I can take care of this for you.
And that's opening the heart, opening the heart in the life to transformation.
And that's to me what the gospel is about
Man, that was a whoo that'll preach Ian.
(44:17):
that was good.
know that was like, I mean, man, we boiled down the entire conversation into just that.
That is who that man and I'm gonna say that to my bachelor and be like, Hey, Pastor Keith,next, next Sunday, can you just tell people that they're out of ammo?
It's time for them to admit they out of ammo.
Okay, well, I
I had asked, I feel like there's this still burning thing because I'd asked that secondpart of that question a while ago and I didn't want you to forget about it.
(44:43):
And I feel like we've actually done a really good job of kind of teasing this out.
But I would love for you to just kind of share for you as you have done this work, as youhave hugged the cactus.
What has been an unexpected insight?
for you that has really kind of turned the page on this transformative work and let it notjust be like this reformative work but actually transformative.
(45:10):
Yeah, well stated.
So yeah, there were a lot of things that have come up for me.
One is I've realized just how fundamentally fearful I am.
You know what I mean?
Like so much of my gross behaviors, and we all have gross behaviors, are just fueled byfear.
(45:32):
know, I'm just like, there's always, I said at a meeting the other day, I'm like, youknow,
I feel like, you know that sound you hear when there's like an overhead like fluorescentlight that's buzzing because it's not grounded.
It's like it's always in the background and you just kind of eventually just likeannoying, but it's always there.
That's what anxiety and fear is like in my life.
There's always this, am I going to disappoint somebody?
(45:54):
Am I in trouble?
Am I not doing this right?
It's like, it's always there.
It's like this little voice, right?
And so that was a really big, you know, part of me that I had to take a look at and go.
I really need to take care of that part of my life, you know, or I need, I need to giveGod consent to take care of that part of my life and to become more God reliant than self
reliant.
(46:14):
Cause usually fear is also fueled by this, this, this really scary idea that it's all upto me to fix this, you know?
I mean, another thing that came up was, and this is sort of a derivative of the fear islike, I really worry about what other people think of me.
Like, it's like so weird.
am like, I'm not a young guy and I'm like still in seventh grade.
(46:36):
I'm still in seventh grade.
I'm still, I am, I'm in seventh grade still.
And it's like, you know, in fact, the stuff that ends up on my, like, like my characterdefect list is like stuff that is so old.
It's like, really?
Still?
And it's like, yep, still.
Like I'm still worried about what other people think about me.
And it's like, and it's kooky.
(46:58):
But it's like, OK, I got to hug the cactus.
There it is.
I got to hug that part of myself.
But here's the thing.
You cannot love your you cannot hate yourself into becoming a more loving person like youjust can't.
I've tried right there.
And there's a lot of people of faith out there who have just tried to hate themselves intobecoming better people.
You can't do that.
(47:19):
You can't shame yourself, beat yourself up.
You have to welcome these parts of yourself home and tell them you got that.
that there were that that
All of you is welcome.
You have to receive all of you back to present all of you to God and give God to give Godconsent to heal these parts of you that continue to dog your life.
(47:39):
Yeah.
man, that's so good.
I, my dad always says that, like, I remember asking him a while because like, I'm about toturn 40 and, like I was kind of wrestling with like, I'm actually not afraid of 40.
I'm not like anti turning 40, but I, it's one of those things I'm like, I don't feel 40.
Like I don't, I don't feel mentally 40.
(48:00):
I don't feel like I look 40.
I don't feel like, like when I think back to when I was a kid and I thought of 40 yearolds, like they just like looked.
You know, like always like Home Alone 2, Kevin's mom, Catherine O'Hara, she was 36 whenthey filmed Home Alone 2.
And I'm like, she looks 55.
Like, I understand that the haircuts of the 90s have a lot to do with that.
(48:24):
But also, like when I was a kid, like I looked at Catherine O'Hara in Home Alone 2, and Ithought she was a million years old, and she's four years younger than me now.
So that's like a very jarring
reality to come to grips with.
But I asked my dad this.
said, Dad, you know, you just turned 80.
Are you the same way?
Am I going to be like this my entire life when I'm 80?
(48:45):
And he said, mentally, I'm 26.
He said, do not.
He's like, my body feels 80 at times.
And he said, but mentally, I'm 26.
That's where I am.
And so it's just kind of interesting how you said, just feel like I still struggle withsometimes things that I struggled with in middle school.
and it's like, how does this, how does this continue to plague us?
(49:06):
But you know, that's what's so great in the book.
talk, there's a workbook that comes with it because, not everybody's ready to go to a 12step meeting.
mean, granted, I'm hoping that somebody who has a drinking problem or a drug problem or amajor overeating problem or a gambling problem, I hope they read the book and get a lot
out of it and go find a 12 step community to find healing.
But not everybody's ready to do that.
Right.
Although I think everybody should go to Al-Anon or Codependency Anonymous.
(49:29):
I think everybody's a candidate for those two.
But but I digress.
All right.
So so
You know, I'm hoping that people will say, I really want to do these 12 steps, but I needa community to do it with because to do it alone, yeah, you'll derive benefit, but not as
(49:50):
much as you will from doing it with four or five friends, you know, for a couple of weeksand using the workbook and doing the work.
Because what happens in the rooms is we share these things about who we are and actually.
It's like really freeing and it's like a very grace filled environment where it's like,well, of course that's what humans do.
Humans do baddie stuff and you do baddie stuff to make your life work.
(50:14):
And actually that baddie stuff ends up causing more problems than the problem it wastrying to solve.
Right.
And so now, you know, there's a different way you can, you know, regard it differently.
So when I look at that stuff that I still do from seventh grade, I don't sit around andgo, I'm such a jerk.
You know, I don't do that.
(50:34):
I'm more like, yeah.
Well, of course.
I mean, that's just I'm a human and humans do that stuff.
And I go to my meetings and I share it and everybody laughs because they do it, too.
And we all are working on it.
It's not like we laugh and then just ignore it.
We laugh because we're working on it.
But Bill W., the author of The Twelve Steps, he has that great expression, right?
You've heard it a million times.
Right.
(50:55):
We are not saints.
The point is we are willing to grow along spiritual lines.
We seek
Progress not perfection and to me that's that's my spiritual life.
I'm seeking progress not perfection
Yeah, yeah.
that's so good.
Yeah.
Fun little side digression.
So we, when I was in, I want to say middle school, could have been late elementary, but Ithink it was middle school.
(51:24):
When my mom was sick, we couldn't really travel like most families did.
We had to travel in a motor home because that was like,
It was like an old like jamboree because you know, then my mom could have all her likemachines and medicines and all that stuff.
And one summer we went up to Vermont and we went to the home of Bill Wilson.
(51:45):
And it's kind of like a, I mean, it's like a place you can visit and long story short, sowe go, you know, that's like what AA families did is they went to the home of Bill Wilson
on like summer vacation.
And so we're at the home and
underneath of there's like this beautiful barn on the property is really beautiful housein Vermont and we went and underneath of this barn there was a cat that had had just had
(52:08):
kittens and I we were I'm you know in middle school so I'm playing with the kittens andthis one little black kitten comes up and kind of like crawls in my lap and the lady there
at the house was like yeah you know this cat was like stray cat and I'm having thesekittens and yada yada yada long story short
the cat went home with us and his name was Wilson.
(52:30):
yeah, so I literally had a cat named after Bill W.
So just find that.
Yeah, yeah.
And so Wilson was our cat.
He and he stayed with us like for a very long time.
I don't even remember when he died.
He lived a long time.
But yeah, so I had a cat named Wilson after Bill Wilson.
(52:51):
I'm actually going to name, you've inspired me to name my next dog, Wilson.
You should you should.
He was a great cat.
He was a great cat.
Yeah.
And then obviously, like I told the story in my book about how I used to, like when I wasin kindergarten, play a meeting with like my Barbies and my bear and like bear would pick
up 30 day chips.
HAHAHAHA
(53:12):
My parents came in my room one day and saw me like literally sitting with my like Barbiesand stuffed animals all in a circle and my mom was like, honey, what are you doing?
And I was like, I'm playing a meeting and like I was like, bear fell off the wagon, likeKen's picking up his 30 day chip, like they're they have an intervention over here for
Barbie.
(53:32):
And I remember at that point, my parents were like, maybe we need to get like a babysitterwhen we go to meetings.
And then I'll tell you one more funny kid AA story.
then when I went to, because I didn't grow up going to church, because AA was like churchfor my parents.
And I went to a Catholic mass.
And I'd never been to a Catholic mass.
(53:52):
And I was with my aunt.
And we were in this big Catholic cathedral.
mean, talking stained glass windows everywhere.
it was time.
It was like the stand up, sit down, stand up, sit down, like all the things.
I'm five and have no idea what's going on.
And then all of sudden they stand up and they say the Lord's Prayer.
(54:13):
And I'm like, I know this part.
Okay.
And so, I mean, I'm holding hands and I'm like saying the Lord's Prayer with like gustoand effort and excitement.
I'm, know, and you know, and for that is the kingdom and the power and the glory for Inever, never.
And, but like in the Catholic Mass, it stops.
(54:36):
And I didn't know it stops.
And so I kept going.
And so I went, keep coming back.
It works if you work it.
And I screamed it.
And I'm shaking the hands.
I mean, it's when I tell you this memory is emblazoned on my brain where the sound of myvoice saying keep coming back.
(55:01):
It works if you work.
It was like ricocheting off of the walls and the wood and the entire
Catholic cathedral like turns around to see like who is this person and then I of course Ihear like some chuckles in the background like clearly some people who go to AA meetings
and I was just mortified and I just remember the the priest being like my piece I give toyou my piece I live like moving on from there so anyway so those are my my childhood AA
(55:33):
stories
you're describing how most AAM meetings end, many do, and what I love about it is if youthink about it, shouldn't church end that way every week?
Keep coming back.
It works if you work it.
Sounds good to me.
(55:53):
mean, you know, by the way, the other day I've got these two coaching clients and one ofthe guys who came to me, I love these two.
He is a, they're both wonderful guys and they are new to faith, right?
And they were praying for one of the first times the other day and one guy goes.
(56:15):
Yeah, God, know, just like, you know, we just pray we have a really like, you know, like,you know, be with Pete and, know, and his problem with his knee and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
And then he gets to end of the prayer and he goes, Yeah, so, yeah, just, you know, blessus today and blah, blah.
And well, anyway, have a good day, And I said to him, I said, I said, brother, I praythat.
(56:43):
From this day forward, you end every prayer with, a good day, God.
Well, have a good day, God.
That is incredible.
I'm gonna start like that.
love it.
I think it's perfect.
Absolutely perfect.
Okay, God, have a good day.
Okay, we'll see ya.
All right.
So like, I can't wait to tell my husband that because like, so my husband, every time, soyou know, he's like tall, deep voice, southern man.
(57:11):
And every time he gets off the phone, like he could be on the phone with the guy from, youknow, the bank.
Like it could be just a complete stranger.
Every time my husband gets off the phone with someone, does not matter if it's his motheror if it's the guy at the bank, he hangs up with, we'll see ya.
And so it always cracks me up because I'm like, really?
Are you going to see the guy at the bank?
(57:32):
Like, are you going to see?
Are you going to see him?
Because he's always like, all right, well, we'll see.
I like that's how he hangs up.
And so I'm like, that's how you need to start praying.
Like when you close a prayer with God, he's like, all right, amen.
We'll see.
Ha
All right, we'll see.
it's so good.
so good.
my gosh.
I have like 700 more questions I want to ask you, Ian, and we're out of time.
(57:54):
But I loved this so much.
I just felt like I got a lot out of this conversation.
I hope people listening, I know that if they keep coming back, they listen to this again.
It's going to work if they work it.
But really, thank you for just for what you're doing with this book.
And I just.
really pray, like you said, that it gets in the hands of not just people who, yes, I hopeit gets in the hands of some alcoholics and some drug addicts and some people who need to
(58:20):
get into the doors of a 12-step program, but I really hope that everybody reading it justbegins to employ those steps in their own life as a path of transformation and not just
reformation.
man, it's just so good.
Ian, thank you so much for being here.
man, it was such a delight, Molly.
You brightened up my morning and made me laugh and that's always a good, good thing.
(58:45):
Well, thank you.
And until next time, when you get another velvet jacket of a different kind.
Mmm, yummy!
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