February 26, 2025 • 57 mins
Oh MAN, you are in for a treat this week! I have not one, but two incredible guests joining me: Randy Frazee and Gisela Kreglinger.
Randy is the lead teaching pastor at Westside Family Church in Kansas City and a visionary in Bible engagement, spiritual formation, and building biblical community. He’s the architect behind The Story and Believe church engagement campaigns and the author of books like The Joy Challenge and Think, Act, Be Like Jesus.
Gisela grew up on a winery in Franconia, Germany, where her family has been crafting wine for generations. She holds multiple degrees in Biblical Studies and a PhD in Historical Theology from the University of St Andrews. Her passion lies at the intersection of food, faith, and joy, which she explores through her writing, teaching, and wine pilgrimages.
Together, they are the brilliant minds behind Wine in the Word, a Bible study that explores the theology of wine, its biblical significance, and how it connects with the Christian life.
This conversation was unlike anything I’ve ever had on the show. It was thought-provoking, eye-opening, and honestly, I could’ve talked to these two for hours! Get ready for a super fascinating discussion!
4:27 – Randy 101
• Lead pastor for 36 years
• Writer and author
• Husband, father and grandfather
• Working on this project with Gisela
6:03 – Gisela 101
• Growing up on a winery
• Theologian, teacher, and writer
• Wine tastings and pilgrimages
7:24 – The Story Behind “Wine In The Word”
• Randy and Gisela’s backgrounds
• How this collaboration came to be
• Wine as a bridge builder
13:55 – The Role Of Wine In The Bible
• The historical context of wine in America
• Wine consumption in Christian context
• Reclaiming wine as a gift from God
• Teaching your children to have a healthy relationship with wine
26:54 – “Holy Tipsiness”
• Wine as a social lubricant
• An invitation to community + sharing God’s gifts
• Addressing opposition to wine consumption
45:25 – Takeaways
• Teaching about wine in a healthy, biblical context
• Learn more about Wine In The Word
• Randy and Gisela’s prayer for this study
FEATURED QUOTES
“I just feel like it's time that we stop looking at wine through the lens of our culture.” - Randy Frazee
“Wine is really an invitation to community, to sharing the gifts of God. You know, wine and bread and all food that the earth brings forth are gifts from God. They are not just things out there that we need to eat. They're actually God's love language.” – Gisela Kreglinger
“You don't even have to drink or like wine, but you should know about what wine is teaching us in God.” - Randy Frazee
“We as the church have always been called to show how to live and how to live well as God has intended it, and I think we need to do that.” – Gisela Kreglinger
+++
Wine in the Word:
https://www.randyfrazee.com/wine-in-the-word
Learn more about Randy:
https://www.randyfrazee.com/
Randy’s Books:
https://www.randyfrazee.com/books
Westside Family Church:
https://www.westsidefamily.church/
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/RandyeFrazee
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/randyfrazee
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/randy-frazee-43bb1545/
Learn more about Gisela:
https://www.thespiritualityofwine.com/
Gisela’s Books and Articles:
https://www.thespiritualityofwine.com/publications
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/gisela.kreglinger
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/giselakreglinger/
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/gisela-h-kreglinger-615a2910/
Connect with me:
http://www.stillbeingmolly.com
http://instagram.com/stillbe
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Oh man, welcome to the show, Randy and Gisela.
I'm so excited to have you.
Thank you so much for being here.
Absolutely.
Wonderful to be with you, Molly.
Well, I have been really looking forward to this ever since your Bible study kind of cameacross my desk.
I said, this is a conversation in eight and a half years I have never had on this show.
(00:25):
And so I'm really, really, really looking forward to this.
So but before we get into your new study and all of the things we need to get to know eachof you.
So, Randy, I'm going to have you go first.
So.
Randy, will you give us the Randy 101 to tell us who you are, what you do, and how you gotto where you are today?
Yeah, thank you so much, Molly.
Well, Randy Frazee, I have been a lead pastor for 36 years, currently at Westside FamilyChurch in the Kansas City area.
(00:54):
I am a writer and author like Gisela is, and you, talked about this earlier.
One of my more recognizable projects is called The Story, which you did with your familyyears ago.
which is really cool.
I was actually, where I'm at right now with Gisela is that I talked to my publisher andsaying, hey, it's time for us to do a project on wine for crying out loud.
(01:20):
And about a month later, they called me back and said, we want you to do it with Gisela.
And we were already acquaintances and friends.
And so it became just a wonderful project for us to be here today.
Awesome.
That's amazing.
All right, Gisela, you're up.
Absolutely.
I've been married.
I've been married for 44 years.
(01:42):
I have four grown children and five grandchildren.
Yeah.
my husband and I just this week, just on Tuesday, we celebrated 13 years of marriage.
And we were saying that, like, if somebody had told us the day we got married that, at 13years that we would just love it even more than we did then, you know, I think we would
(02:04):
have been like, yeah, I think that's possible.
But like, I don't think we really understood.
so hearing that just gives me even more encouragement that at 44 years, we're going tolove it even more than we love it right now.
So that's awesome.
Well, my name is Kisela Kreiklinger.
I grew up on a family-owned winery where my family has been making and crafting wine formany, many generations.
(02:28):
And also wine for the Lord's Supper.
And I think that profoundly shaped me as a person of faith, but I also became a theologianand have been teaching Christian spirituality.
in the academy for about seven years.
I taught at a seminary and then also at a secular university and really found that therewas a huge void in terms of theology and wine in particular but also food and that's where
(02:59):
I really felt called to speak and write into that context.
So I've been writing about that for the last 10 years.
The wine in the word video series is actually the fourth publication in that
regard.
And I still teach some in a university setting, but a lot more in churches or parachurchorganizations.
(03:25):
And on Monday, I'll be doing a wine tasting as a spirit of practice in a secular wineshop.
And I also lead wine pilgrimages to France and Germany to help Christians rediscover theWestern Christian history through food, wine, agriculture.
in the table.
that's so cool.
So fascinating.
(03:46):
I have a million questions that I will probably barely be able to scratch the surface onin this conversation.
But the first one that I have is you both kind of alluded to this.
Gisela, you said that this was something that you had kind of been felt called to study.
But Randy, you mentioned that you went to your publisher and you were like, it's abouttime somebody does a study on wine.
(04:08):
And I'm curious for you specifically, Randy, like, what was it that led you to that?
And then
for the both of you how it really made sense for the two of you to collaborate onsomething like this because it is unique and it is something that I'll be honest I haven't
really seen a whole lot of content around
Well, yes, for me and Gisela and I have in this Wine in the Word series an episode calledThe Tale of Two Wine Drinkers and we come from very different backgrounds to get to this
(04:40):
place and you know, maybe we'll have a little bit, it's a wonderful story, but on my side,you know, I came up in an unchurched home.
My parents weren't followers of Jesus, but my dad who had issues with alcohol,
Stopped drinking it was either lose my mom or stop drinking and he did but it wasn't wineIt was more beer and in hard liquors and but when I came on the scene, he was already done
(05:07):
with that So we were a teetotaling family unchristian teetotaling family and then I wenton to get become a Christian as a teenager and And it was a church that you know,
absolutely no drinking
And then I went to my undergraduate for theology, signed a covenant, went to graduateschool for theology, signed a covenant, and really became a pastor at 28.
(05:27):
No one was drinking, wasn't right.
And basically for me, was a guy at the age of 39, I was pastoring and a guy who was comingto the church who was an atheist invited us over for dinner.
He had a beautiful wine cellar and I did not want to drink the wine, but a friend told meI needed to take one for the team.
And I had a glass of wine and only found out I liked wine, but I'd never had a great glassof wine.
(05:53):
and so this began my journey at the age of 39, unlike Gisela, at the age of 39 and justcould not understand how the church got to this place in America.
And I'll stop there because, Gisela, you know, comes from Europe and has a totallydifferent perspective.
so I, I'll, I'll, I'll stop there and let her sort of dive in and.
(06:16):
We'll see then how our stories collide.
Yeah, I think it's been a really remarkable collaboration between Randy and myself.
And I think our publisher was very wise in putting us together because we come from verydifferent backgrounds.
Randy comes from, you know, an un-churched home, not drinking alcohol.
(06:38):
I grew up in the Lutheran faith.
You know, my family making and crafting wine and drinking it.
But also, I'm more of a of a mainline church, and Randy comes from a non-denominationalchurch.
And he is a male leader.
I'm a female teacher.
(07:00):
And I think because we come from such different backgrounds, we really had to sort of...
enter into this in a very purposeful way to learn to understand each other, where we'recoming from, and to create something together.
Sometimes that wasn't easy, but I think in our time where there is so much division andthere's so much sentiment that you come from somewhere else, maybe we're cautious or we
(07:31):
don't like this.
It was just beautiful to work with Randy and to come together and to create somethingtogether.
for the sake of the kingdom, because of that biblical vision, and to offer something up tothe world in a time where the church is so divided and where there's so much tension and
disagreement, and to say, you know, we as Christians are called to be bridge builders.
(07:54):
And so I feel like Randy and I build bridges towards one another so that we can cometogether to sacred scripture and to really open it up anew for the body of Christ.
And we hope that
by looking at something like wine.
And wine itself is such a bridge builder.
know, when people come together around the table and you have some wine, you have somegood food, I think it helps to sort of break down barriers and to help reconnect with one
(08:23):
another in ways that allows each one to have all different opinions and to come fromdifferent backgrounds and say, you know, in Christ we are one, God has made us one, and he
has actually given us wine.
as a social lubricant and a social glue to realize what makes us one is Christ and not thedifferent opinions, not the different cultures, not the different sexes, but that we are
(08:49):
one in Christ and that we can come and are called to come together and offer something inthe midst of the divisions that we experience and to rejoice that God is with us and that
he has given us
good and amazing things and wine is one of those beautiful and amazing gifts that we areto receive with gratitude and joy.
(09:13):
I think I find this so fascinating your different backgrounds and how they kind ofconverge together and it's interesting Randy I relate so much to you because I also grew
up not in a Christian home and But both my parents like my parents met in AA and so likewe had AA meetings in my house three nights a week and so like I grew up like I knew the
(09:34):
Lord's Prayer but
me it ended with keep coming back it works if you work it because that's how it ends atAA.
you know, so I mean, I knew the Serenity Prayer, but I just thought it was a thing thatthey said in AA.
I was, I grew up in a home where like, it was, I'd say a teetotaling home in that I wasterrified of alcohol because I just thought that I remember very vividly that I
(09:57):
was over at a friend's house in like third or fourth grade, and I'd opened up her fridgeand her parents had beer in the fridge.
And I asked her if she knew that her parents were alcoholics.
And that did not go over well.
Whereas, you know, I got saved later in life.
And then I meet my husband who grew up in a very conservative, you know, traditionalChristian home where they were teetotalers for the, you know, just to use the term for
(10:26):
you know, he was not drinking and he grew up in a home with no alcohol because ofreligious reasons.
And so it's interesting that you share these different these different backgrounds and howthey kind of came together.
Well, so let's kind of dig into this, because obviously the theme of wine in the Bible isfrom start to finish, OK, especially when we get into the New Testament and the Gospels,
(10:49):
like Jesus is regularly referencing the vine and grapes and all of those things.
And there's something like
a thousand almost a thousand references to wine in scripture.
So why do you think it has been overlooked or even considered taboo in a lot of Christiantraditions and why people have almost been afraid to touch on?
(11:12):
I'll tee up Gisela, who's a real expert here, because she really opened my eyes to a lotof things coming from a different perspective.
One of our favorite passages that we built really the study around is Psalm 104, that Godhas given us a wine as a gift.
It is a gift.
And yet we know with all gifts, like sex and marriage, for example,
(11:32):
that it is to be used according to how God intended the gift to be used.
If you use it outside of what God intended, it becomes a problem.
And that's the same thing with wine.
And Gisela came upon a great quote from Martin Luther, I'll say for maybe another time,but I just love that quote about those two ideas.
But I think what happened is that this perspective on wine is an American thing, thatactually it's not a worldwide thing, it's an American thing.
(11:59):
And I think that tees up Gisela.
to explain how we got this place.
Yeah.
I think it's really important for us to understand, you know, our own culture and our ownhistory with particular things like wine to really understand where we are at.
And I think America has a very unique history with alcohol.
(12:20):
And I actually write about that quite in some detail in Cup Overflowing, the book thatsort of we the video series is in part based on and in
in the US really came of age on hard liquor.
It was rum and whiskey, rather than wine, for example, because the pilgrims couldn't growvineyards on the East Coast.
(12:45):
They wouldn't take because of the climate.
So the country came of age on distilled spirits at a time during the IndustrialRevolution, where they not only started to mass produce distilleries, they also mass
produced
distilled spirits and hard liquor.
And for the first time in human history, you had masses of hard liquor available for theordinary person.
(13:11):
then when hard times come, for example, the Civil War or later the Great Depression,people started to self-medicate.
And it's so much easier to get intoxicated on hard liquor and become addicted to it.
And this is really when the temperance movement happened.
is as a response to the abuse of hard liquor.
(13:35):
It wasn't because the abuse of wine.
But then as the temperance movement gained momentum, they also turned against wine.
And the prohibition happened.
then really, especially for religious institutions, even after the prohibition, winebecame a taboo.
And that was primarily in the Baptist and the Methodist and Pentecostal traditions.
(14:01):
the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, the Lutheran Church, they always continue touse wine in the Eucharist.
But I think it's really important for North Americans to realize that it was sort of atragic constellation.
It was no one's fault that you couldn't grow vineyards on the East Coast, that hard liquorbecame such a primary drink and that has created a lot of havoc.
(14:28):
I think you would see a very different
context with wine and actually there are studies done that show when wine is the primarydrink of the people they are less likely to get addicted and abuse it.
So interesting.
That's really fascinating.
And I had never heard it really laid out like that.
And it just, I mean, it makes so much sense.
(14:49):
And I've always been fascinated because it is really interesting.
Like anytime I go to a European country, like we always joke that, you know, like we wentto Rome this summer and in Rome, wine was cheaper than water.
Like if you wanted to go to a restaurant, a glass of wine was cheaper than a glass ofwater or.
I mean, when we went to Portugal, it was the same thing.
(15:10):
I mean, when we went to Prague, it was the same thing.
And it's just such a part of the culture there where it's just not here.
And it's just so different.
And it's almost been abused and twisted in American culture.
And I think the way you break it down is so fascinating.
Well, I'd be curious kind of along those same lines.
And I don't know if you're better to speak to this or Randy.
(15:30):
But the reality is similar to American culture.
But throughout history,
the church, kind of big C, capital C church, has had these varied responses to alcohol andwine, and, you know, kind of from prohibition to like full acceptance.
So what do you believe is a more balanced or biblical approach to kind of navigating thatconversation around alcohol use and then also abuse within the Christian context?
(16:03):
I'll say something first and then again, I like to tea Giselauk again, because she'sreally the one who this has been a lot, 10 years in working.
For me, know, as a pastor, as a writer, as someone who loves the scripture, I just feellike it's time that we stop looking at wine through the lens of our culture.
(16:30):
Hmm.
know, we talk about this desire for us to study the Word and the Word only and let it tobe pure.
But when it comes to the topic of wine and all of its varieties of meaning fromagriculture to even the metaphor of it, it's such an important part of the Christian
journey from, like you said, Molly, from Genesis all the way to Revelation, you know, fromNoah, you know, the first, you know, wine, you know,
(16:56):
that we have in the scripture all the way to the marriage supper of the Lamb at the veryend of the Bible.
It's a very important part.
And it's just for me, it's just time for us to get honest and stop looking at thescriptures through the lens of a period of time that really didn't have anything to do
with wine per se.
It had to do with the hard liquor and let it have its rightful place in our lives.
(17:18):
And by that I mean rightful place.
It is not to be abused like any other gift that God's given us.
And Giesel and I go a long way.
to really laying that out and talking that through so that people have a sense that yeah,any gift that God gives us has to be placed in its rightful boundaries, but to completely
eliminate.
I had one pastor in Kansas City text me, Instagram me and said, Randy, I don't mind aperson having a glass of wine, but why are you mixing the Bible in with it?
(17:45):
And I said, my friend, I love you to pieces, buddy, but there are so many references.
You mentioned nearly 1,000.
know, references to wine or wine related topics in the Bible.
It's a lot.
It's a lot more than most of the stuff we talk about on Sunday morning.
So for me, it's just really time and I'm old enough now as a pastor where if I get intotrouble for really wanting to highlight a sense of what God is actually doing in his word,
(18:10):
then I'm good with that.
Yeah.
that's so good.
Yeah.
What about you, Gisela?
Yeah, I think what Randy is saying is so true that, you know, this is a, it's a, it's acultural perspective on the Christian faith.
You have to realize, Molly, before the mid 19th century, all denominations affirmed wineas a gift from God and used it in the Lord's Supper.
(18:32):
It only with, only when Thomas Wells started pasteurization to grape juice in the 19thcentury, that some denominations started using a grape juice.
So it's a fairly recent development when you look at the over 2000 year of church history.
(18:53):
And I think I agree with Randy, it's time that we revisited this because it is a gift fromGod.
Now the church has become quite good in hosting AA meetings or Al-Anon meetings to helpthose who really struggle with alcohol abuse or have loved ones.
But the church has not been good to really talk about, well, this is a gift from God.
(19:16):
It is a very important theme, bringing us to the Lord's Supper, bringing us to the table,to a life of hospitality, but also agriculture to realize that our faith is an embodied
faith.
We commune with God through the world that he has made, including food and wine.
so in Psalm 104, says that wine is a bringer of joy.
(19:38):
Now, joy is a...
very, very important part of the Christian faith.
And so I think it's time for the church to reclaim wine as a gift from God.
Because we have not dealt with the subject matter, the secular world now defines themeaning of wine for us.
And so wine drinking has become quite elitist, very top down.
(20:01):
You you have the wine experts that tell you what you're supposed to smell and taste ratherthan
And it's very intimidating.
And a lot of people feel like, that's not for me because I can't, all these names, allthis talk.
It's a very rationalized approach actually to wine because it's all about definingminutely the flavor profile and where it's coming from and all of that.
(20:23):
And that can be very, very helpful in helping us understand wine.
But wine is a gift from God to liberate us to enjoy wine in our own terms.
Each one of us will...
taste and experience a particular wine in very unique ways.
In Germany, we actually have a saying that wine is God's way of kissing humanity.
(20:47):
we actually, each one of us has a very particular memory bank of flavor profiles by whichwe identify flavors in the wine.
But they are in turn connected to deeper memories and emotions.
that can go even back to childhood and all of these things can be evoked if we giveourselves permission to listen and pay attention to both the wine and how we experience
(21:18):
it.
But when the wine experts come and they do their presentation, I see so many people justshutting down.
I'm like, I don't know how to do this.
I don't know how to smell this and that.
But in fact, we have been given this incredible capacity for smell and taste and forsensing.
these things in our bodies.
So I think it's time, as Randy said, we need to move on from sort of the cultural, thepainful history that we've had as a culture with alcohol into really single out wine,
(21:50):
which has so profoundly shaped so many cultures and civilizations as a beautiful gift thathelps us to reconnect with each other, with our bodies, with God and the earth, where this
beautiful
you know, that the vines and the wine crafting process emerges.
Hmm.
(22:11):
Yeah.
here?
think it's really important, I think for your listeners, particularly you being a youngmother, I think that whenever we keep this perspective in America that wine is taboo, then
I think young people don't get properly discipled in the experience of this gift.
And that's how it gets out of control.
And I think Gisela was raised in this situation.
(22:32):
And so I was not, but we raised our children to not hide the fact that we drank wine.
We don't drink.
before five o'clock.
We don't drink wine every night.
We're having two couples over tonight.
My wife's making chicken cacciatore and I'm gonna pair some lovely wine with it.
It's gonna be fantastic.
But with our kids at the age of 17, at their birthday, we sat a small glass of wine attheir table under our guidance.
(23:00):
And today we have four grown children that do not have an alcohol problem, but they have awonderful relationship.
with wine.
And I think that if the Christian community would hear us out, that if you leave it astaboo and do not talk about it, there's a greater chance they're going to abuse it as
opposed to being discipled under your roof.
Yeah.
Man, think this is such a, man, this is such an important conversation and I have so manythings I would like to touch on.
(23:27):
And there's a couple of things, one that just both of you have alluded to and I think isreally beautiful.
And I will be honest, I have never heard it worded like this.
And I think for me, it was a lot of things like I'm in the word, I'm in the word daily.
I have never considered like just almost the way you worded it, the way you word that wineis a gift from God and it's not to be abused.
(23:48):
Immediately, the thing that came to mind was sex is a gift from God and it's not to beabused.
Marriage is a gift from God and it's not to be abused.
know, food is a gift from God and it's not to be abused.
I mean, we could go on and on and on and I've never put wine almost in the same categoryas sex or marriage.
And the way that our culture often will twist and just like almost like
(24:17):
I don't know what the word I'm looking for is, but you know what I mean, like, just takethis thing that is really beautiful and then our culture puts it in a context that it was
never meant to be in.
And so ultimately then yes, it does get abused and it does get just put in a context thatagain, it wasn't meant to be in and it becomes something that God didn't design it for.
(24:38):
And I'd never thought about it like that with wine.
then, so for...
One, I think that is really beautiful and I think helps to, when we look at it throughthat lens and we almost like look at it and educate and help people, especially Christians
to have a right theology of wine, rather than just like a healthy theology of sex.
(25:04):
When we do that, it creates a space to be able to have these conversations and to see thatwine is a symbol of joy and blessing.
And then we're able to reconcile that with the Bible's warnings about drunkenness and sexand all of those things.
And then to your point, Randy, about like with your kids.
And so this is something that, you know, my husband and I have had a lot of conversations.
(25:27):
We go back and forth.
So our kids are 11 and nine.
And, you know, one thing from a very early age, we were having conversations with our kidsabout sex.
And we created an environment with our children that they are safe to ask any question.
We started at an age appropriate level when they were about four or five, even a littlebit younger as far as like talking about body parts and all of those kinds of things.
(25:53):
And as I've gotten older, we've given them more information that's again on their levelfrom a biblical perspective and created a space where they ride the school bus.
to a public school.
So let's just say they hear all of the things.
And we've created a place where it's like, OK, so if you hear something, I don't want yougoing to Google to find out that information of what that thing is.
(26:17):
So I would like you to come to mom and dad.
And for better or for worse, our children have a relationship with us in that they cancome to us and ask us anything.
And sometimes that makes for really awkward conversations.
But we sit in that awkwardness.
And so for us as well, we've had that conversation with our children around alcohol.
both of my husband and I are kind of trying to unlearn how we were raised as far as howour parents, because again, like he came from a background where it was no alcohol at any
(26:47):
time.
And then I came from a background of no alcohol at any time because my parents wererecovering alcoholics.
And so we've both in adulthood had to kind of come to it from and unlearn things thatwe've learned.
And so we have open and honest conversations about what does it look like?
Like what does, what is alcoholism?
Why is it a bad thing?
what, and just begin to point our kids to what does a healthy relationship with alcohollook like?
(27:13):
We don't have all the answers to this, but this is a thing because at the end of the day,like you were saying, Randy is when you, when you create an air of secrecy or an air of
taboo around something,
whether we like it or not, our children's sinful nature is it's only going to make themthat much more curious.
(27:35):
You know, maybe you luck out and you get a kid who's like the rule follower by the book.
I don't think those are my children.
I was certainly not that kid.
So but man, this is so good.
This is so good.
Is there anything else you wanted to kind of add to that?
I want to make sure that we have time.
(27:56):
You know, I want to say something that I think is really important and I'd like to tee upGisela to talk about something that I think will be a little bit edgy.
But I think we have to bring it, right?
think from a theological perspective, you know, from a biblical narrative perspective, thethree most important meals in the Bible, the Passover in the Old Testament, the Eucharist
(28:22):
or the Lord's Supper,
time of Jesus and the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Those are three very deep, important, convivial, spiritual, right in the middle of all ofthat is wine.
And I just feel so bad for believers who have not yet discovered or allowed themselves todiscover the incredible depth of what that wine means symbolically and actually physically
(28:48):
as it relates to the sacrifice of Christ for us.
and a great being crushed and what all of that means for us is absolutely important.
the kind of edgy kind of thing is Gisela uses a term that I think is really wonderful, butit can also, well, it could be interesting.
She uses the phrase, holy tipsiness.
(29:11):
Because we say, God's given to make our hearts glad.
He's given us this gift to make our hearts glad.
Well, the obvious, there's lots of, in the video series, we talk about
three or four different ways in which wine makes our heart glad.
But one of the obvious ones is this thing that she calls holy tipsiness.
So I'm going to set her up to explain what she means by that.
Okay, I'm into hearing out the edgy comment, Gisela.
(29:35):
Well, Molly, first of all, think given the kind of difficult history that we've had inthis country, and that it's not really our fault, it's just part of an unfortunate set of
constellations, we have to deal with a heritage and inheritance where we have to heal.
You know, if you come from a family with alcohol addiction, it's very important to allowpeople to heal.
(29:59):
But at the same time, we need to find a constructive way forward and say,
How are we as families, as communities, as church community, actually looking at how toembrace this gift well?
And I think this is the conversation that we want to have.
We want to say it is a gift from God.
We are aware that people are suffering from addictions and we want to take care of them.
(30:21):
But the sick should not determine the life of the healthy.
So for the healthy community, we need to say, let's talk about it.
And then let's look at a way forward.
What is that?
healthy and wholesome way of bringing wine into our lives.
And both in the study guide for wine in the world and also in my book, Overflowing, wehave actually added an appendix to help you as a family or church communities start this
(30:49):
kind of conversation.
so, and in that context, I want to say, you know, when we think about intoxication, wealways think about it in negative ways.
But there is actually a level of intoxication that is quite beautiful.
It's not one we completely shut down or where we get out of control, but where we havejust had enough alcohol or wine that we can sort of relax.
(31:13):
We let down our guard.
We become more open and vulnerable.
Confessions come more easily of pleasure and delight in confessions of failure anddisappointment and loss.
And laughter comes more easily because we are more relaxed.
We live in cultures where we have to put up a facade about how successful we are, how muchwe have it together.
(31:38):
But where are those places where we can really put down our guard?
And I've found that when you are around the dinner table and you have some wine and enjoysome good food, it's very hard to keep up your facade.
You start to relax, you start to enjoy, you start to laugh.
That's when you become more vulnerable.
And that's where I think the gift of holy tipsiness comes in.
(32:02):
It's just that slight level of intoxication where you just relax and you enjoy and yousavor and you laugh and you smile and you become more vulnerable.
Mm-hmm.
something that we're not making up.
You Gisela has done a lot of research about our church fathers like Christostom.
We've looked at a lot of our reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin.
(32:26):
We've looked at even more modern folks like C.S.
Lewis and they're all saying this.
Cause I think of like, is she allowed to say that?
Well, we've been saying this for a very long time about what an appropriate experiencewith wine does to conviviality, to...
conversation around the table.
we're just saying, I love what the geese said about, know, we shouldn't design the wholeworld around something that that people are sick from.
(32:51):
There's a bunch of us, the majority of us are healthy.
And we want to have this wonderful access to this experience.
And the US Surgeon General has announced in 2023 that we're dealing with a lonelinessepidemic.
Yeah, yes.
never, never meant to be drunk alone.
It was always designed to be at the table and promoting conviviality.
and Giselle and I have strong beliefs that this is something in addition to wine, food andcommunity is something that we desperately need in our country.
(33:20):
And can I add to that, Randy?
In the biblical worldview, wine is always an invitation to the table.
First of all, to the Lord's Supper, and then to the shared table where we eat and drinkand learn what it means to be families and communities.
And so it's always meant to be shared.
(33:41):
It's always meant to build a stronger.
social fabric into our communities and that is what's missing in our time.
so wine is really an invitation to community, to sharing the gifts of God.
know, wine and bread and all food that the earth brings forth are gifts from God.
(34:02):
They're not just things out there that we need to eat.
They're actually God's love language.
God has made the world in such a way that it brings forth beautiful and delicious things.
When you think about the story of the Garden of Eden, in the very beginning of the Bible,Eden means it's the Garden of pleasure and delight.
(34:24):
The original vision of how God wants to be with his people is that we live in harmony inthis world with God, with each other, and enjoy what the earth brings forth, including
wine.
Man, I am fascinated by this conversation.
I just think the way that you frame this, even I, if I'm being honest, I'm kind of sittinghere and I'm almost sitting in a little bit of discomfort because it is so new to anything
(34:52):
I've ever heard in the context of the study of scripture.
And I don't say that as a negative thing.
I say that as like, anytime that where you're feeling discomfort,
is when God is shifting our view on things.
And I read a book a few months ago, this is an older book, but it just it reminds me ofkind of similar to what y'all were saying.
(35:15):
And it's a book called Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes by E.
Randolph Richards.
And it's a I highly recommend it.
And basically what he does is he talks about how the Western Church has misinterpretedscripture over time.
And we've read
scripture through our own Western eyes and we're not reading it through, you know, MiddleEastern eyes, which is where the Bible was written.
(35:40):
it's just, and so it kind of breaks all these things down and it's almost something that Ithink that a lot who are listening, and I'm kind of speaking specifically to the people
who are listening, who might also be sitting in discomfort and they might hear a term likeholy tipsiness and they might be like, what blasphemy?
Like, and I just, I'm encouraging anybody who's maybe sitting in that discomfort to belike,
(36:02):
This is something I've never heard before.
Why do I believe what I believe?
I started seminary this year, my second semester of seminary.
And one of the very first things that we talked about in seminary is, is, you know, thestudy of epistemology.
Why do we know what we know?
The study of the thought, all of that.
And one of the things my very first professor said to us is like, what you need to sit in,in seminary, is this notion of you are
(36:30):
going to learn things that are different from what you've been taught.
And you're going to sit in moments of discomfort where you think you knew something, youthought you knew something, and the truth was actually something different.
And I feel like this conversation, a conversation around something like that is so healthyand good for us to, because what it does is it gives us a clearer, more vibrant picture of
(36:58):
God.
And so I say all of that to kind of set up this next question and that is for those whoare sitting in that discomfort or maybe they're just like, this is like the this is brand
new information to me or whatever or even somebody who's like, yeah, I've kind of alwaysthought that but I didn't really know what in scripture backs that up.
(37:20):
And I know you reference Psalm 104.
Was there a particular passage or a particular story or particular bit in your researchthat you came across that really was almost like a light bulb moment for you in kind of
framing a right theology around wine?
Kiswa?
(37:41):
I think Psalm 104, certainly one of those passages, God gave wine to make glad the heartsof humanity, captures a lot of what we're talking about.
you know, the Psalm 104, they call it a creation song because it sort of retells thenarrative of creation, but then it brings wine in and to realize that creation is a gift.
(38:05):
and we're part of this community of creation.
But wine has a very particular role.
It's to bring us joy.
It's not about just surviving in this life.
It is about flourishing and gathering as a community to rejoice that God is our creatorand redeemer and that he has given us this beautiful life.
(38:29):
So even though I have a lot of other favorite passages, I feel Psalm 104
is a really key psalm in that passage about wine, really key in understanding the rolethat wine has, that it is God's love language.
know, the song of songs compares the wooing of two lovers in sex to savoring and enjoyingwine.
(38:53):
They're both gifts from God, but wine has a very particular role.
It brings joy to our lives and to our communities.
I would throw also in, we do a whole session on the wedding feast of Cana.
I just feel like there's so many things going on, you know, that Jesus's first miracle isto turn the water into wine, unlike some denominations who think he turned the wine back
(39:20):
into water, you know, or, you know, that it was obviously the best wine and that it, youknow, obviously was fermented.
You know, there's been a long season where people have tried to convince us that the wineof the Bible was unfermented, that somehow, you know, Thomas Welch wasn't the first guy
who figured this out.
So it's a bunch of desires, as the book you've just quoted, that's trying to help PG upor, you know, aggerate the Bible, you know, and try to clean it up and save Jesus from
(39:51):
himself, you know, helping him.
It really wasn't wine.
And then also just the imagery that Jesus is setting up as the bridegroom.
know that he's not only the guest here, but he's actually setting up the fact that thewine he's going to provide at the marriage supper of the lamb and the wedding feast that's
coming.
There's just such depth there to the teachings of Jesus that you just, your eyes open upand go, okay, that's it, that's it.
(40:17):
I'm no longer going to keep this from the people that at least I teach and serve.
I want to give them a healthy understanding of this.
Gisela and are very much healthy and we understand all the pain that people have.
We're all into that and we talk about that, but we're not going to let any longer go tonot have this.
Gisela wants a national conversation on this so that we might be able to really get to theheart of what God wants us to.
(40:41):
For believers between now and the rest of their life to be kept from this amazing
Discovery you don't even have to drink or like wine, but you should know about what wineis teaching us in God So it's that time
May I add to that?
The church has always had a prophetic role in the world.
(41:03):
We as God's children are to show the world how to live.
And we are to show the world how to embrace wine well and allow it to do its good workamong us.
mean, wine has been, for good reason, called a culture shaper.
It has shaped so many of the great civilizations of the world.
(41:24):
And I think it can, know, the US is going through a really, really hard time right now.
And I feel like wine can have a really important role in calling us back to the table,calling us back to conversations, allowing us to sort of get out of that mold of
antagonism to realize we're all here in America to be grateful for this country and tofind a way forward.
(41:53):
where we can heal as communities and as a society, and we can be creative about how tofind ways to one another again.
And wine can have a really, really important role.
But I think the church has been called to show culture how to receive it well.
But if we don't receive it at all, how can we be salt and light in this regard?
(42:14):
And I feel like we can, I want to challenge the church to say, you know, scripture teachesus it's an important gift from God.
It's to shape us with joy and creativity and connectedness.
And it can do really, really important things, not just in the church community, but inthe culture at large.
(42:34):
But we as the church have always been called to show how to live and how to live well, asGod has intended it.
And I think we need to do that.
Okay, I hope if you have time I have like two more questions that I really want to askbecause one I think again as we've kind of been alluding to this but how do you respond in
(42:58):
in empathy and understanding but also in truth to those who view drinking wine even inmoderation as like completely incompatible with a life of holiness because I've heard it a
lot
of how it is completely incompatible for somebody who is trying to live a sanctified, setapart, holy life to consume even in moderation wine.
(43:28):
How do you respond to that?
How do you, almost a gentle rebuke?
I don't know how you view it or I'm curious.
I would go, I'll speak to that first.
I go to Paul's teaching about the weaker and stronger brother.
In that passages of scripture, he used food offered to idols.
(43:52):
basically there were people who, Paul says, no, we're liberated from that now.
And so therefore, we're all freed from that.
But he said, if you are the person who still feels in your heart,
you know, that it would be a violation of your relationship with God.
Then he said, then go ahead and live that out, but don't make everyone else do it.
(44:15):
And so my point of view, in this particular case, you know, the person who has thisparticular strong view against wine in the passage of Paul's teaching would actually be
considered the weaker brother.
And I know that's offensive to some, but that's in reality what is actually the case.
And the idea that those of us who have the ability to look at the scriptures,
(44:35):
Feel the liberation that we have in Christ and to enjoy this gift.
He's given to us I think Paul's saying you're the little bit of the stronger person whounderstands the liberation that comes through Christ and back to this original gift he has
but also have a sense of respect for the person who has a deep conviction, know, I Just areal simple example.
I have you know in writing You know, I don't my publisher doesn't like us to capitalizethe pronouns of like he you know speaking to God so in all of my writings, you know
(45:04):
You know, I don't have a capital H every time Jesus is referred to.
And some people just, my wife included, like, no, it's just something that I think is apoint of reverence.
And I said, what's bad grammar?
But if it means something to you to capitalize, you know, the pronouns of God, then youshould do it with vigor.
Just don't make me feel that I have to do it.
(45:25):
You know what I'm saying?
And I think wine is one of those categories is how I handle it.
And just like in the subject of politics, if I sense that someone's very deeply offended,you know, by that, you know, we won't serve wine and dinner.
If they're deeply offended by it, I won't bring it up as a topic, just like I won't bringup Republican and Democrat on the golf course.
So that's kind of not my point of view.
(45:47):
I love that also side note.
So I released my first book last year and in in my drafted manuscript when I submitted itto my editor, I had all of the pronouns of God capitalized and then my publisher made me
change it and I remember being like, No, I want to leave it.
And finally, I just was like, whatever, like
(46:09):
Then it was like they had sent me back the edited manuscript and they had changed it.
I was like, I can't go through and change every single one again in like my 80,000 wordmanuscript.
Like, and I just had to be like, Lord, you know, I did it first.
Like, but anyway, that's just, that's just an aside.
Yeah, well, I want to add something to what Randy said in that regard.
(46:30):
think my sort of I've taught around this for a long time and traveled a lot.
I think as I come, if people are willing to talk about it, you know, a lot of peoplearen't willing to talk about, but those who are willing to talk about, I usually have sort
of this approach of compassion.
I want to, I probe a little bit more and say, tell me more about that.
(46:51):
Why, you know, why, why do you feel that way?
Obviously if people say, well, you know,
wine in the Bible is grape juice, there's not much that you can do, but you have torealize a lot of people have a history of alcohol abuse in their family and a lot of the
communities that react still so strongly, they might have more abuse in their story.
(47:12):
And when you deal with people who have been traumatized, rational arguing doesn't usuallyget you anywhere, but by compassionate listening, you can at least understand where
they're from.
And it's also a generational thing.
think there is a new generation that doesn't feel that way from the same denomination.
(47:32):
They feel free to go and have a beer or glass of wine.
And I think sometimes things change with a new generation.
You could spend all your time trying to convince an older generation when they have a hardtime hearing that because of where they come from and how they have been very painfully
impacted by alcohol abuse.
(47:53):
And so I feel like
my role has been to sort of be compassionate and to listen and to understand and toencourage them to heal.
And then usually when I encounter a younger generation that is more open to it, I can talkto them not only about wine as a gift, but I can also be, and I write about that in my
(48:14):
book, Up Overflowing.
I interview a lot of the younger generation that comes from teetotaling families and theyare now embracing alcohol, but not very well.
They now tip into what I call this yin yang, from not drinking at all to drinking toomuch, not drinking at all to drinking too much.
And that younger generation really needs to learn how to do it well.
(48:40):
For example, can give you an example.
This one young lady, she lives in an affluent part of town with little children, and theyhave children's parties and invite all their friends over.
And they serve...
alcoholic beverages to the adults in the afternoon like strong seltzer or beer and I'mlike wow that they would never do that in my culture nor do I think it's a very healthy
(49:05):
way in front of your children to model starting drinking early in the day but they don'thave any idea no one has taught them no one has taught them the idea that maybe at a
children's party adults should drink you know mineral water or tea or coffee
and wait until five o'clock or the evening meal.
(49:26):
Or I was at a golf tournament with my husband.
It was a charitable golf tournament and we started early in the morning and you were ableto pick up various beverages, among them beer and hard seltzer.
And I'm like, is it really healthy to offer alcoholic beverages at nine o'clock in themorning, go out onto the golf course?
And I want to say from Europe, coming from Europe originally,
(49:50):
and having made this my home, said, it's not wise.
I think it would be wise for us as a culture to say, let's not do that.
Let's not encourage starting to drink early.
It is not a healthy way.
But a younger generation doesn't know how to do it.
We need to teach them.
Yeah.
goes back to the discipleship thing, Molly, that I mentioned earlier, is that we cancontinue to avoid this subject and make a taboo and fail in our parenting to disciple our
(50:17):
children in a healthy relationship with this wonderful gift, just like he has given usmarriage and sex.
And so you would not want to leave that, and parents who leave that topic to their kids tofind out on Google and Instagram and college.
We are called to disciple our
our children and so I think this is the what we're talking about is the best way to have ahealthy relationship with alcohol and wine particularly is our passion when it is actually
(50:48):
brought up and talked about in a biblical way while your children are still in the nest ifwe fail to do that I think in some ways we have failed as a parent to give our children
what they needed
That's so fascinating.
really, I'm really fascinated by this.
And as you were talking, Gizela, I went immediately in my head is the story in Actschapter two, when Peter's like, we're not drunk.
(51:15):
It's only nine in the morning.
Because all the people think that he's drunk.
And he's like, we're not drunk.
For some reason, that story always really makes me laugh every single time.
He's like, we're not drunk.
too early to be drunk like
Yeah.
Yeah.
in that story that is just really hilarious.
He's like, I mean, if it was five o'clock, who knows?
But it's not AM.
(51:36):
we...
Anyway, that story.
Yeah.
He's like, by the way, it's not AM.
That cracks me up.
Okay.
Well, obviously, we have run out of time.
I have 700 other questions I want to ask you and I can't.
But that's just what I would love for you to leave us with.
obviously, for the listeners, will have...
(51:57):
all the links to how you can get this study and do this study with your small group oryour family or your church.
You know, all the resources to your books, Gisela and yours, Randi, I just I'm reallyexcited to just kind of again, begin to uncover this and these types of conversations are
(52:18):
so important and so healthy because it just again, it gets us learning something new.
I learned new things that I didn't know before and I just
find it really fascinating.
the last question that I want to ask is really just around what is your prayer for thisstudy?
(52:38):
Like if the people that are listening take away just one core message from your study,what do you pray and hope that it will be?
Yeah, I guess I would say I would pray that they would, maybe for the very first time, adoor would be opened up for them to see this beautiful gift that God has given and that
(53:00):
this gift would bring them joy and that this gift would bring them community andconviviality and to rediscover the table again with wine in the center of it as God
intended.
and that we will, if we never meet in this life, that at the marriage supper of the Lamb,we'll give a toast to the wonderful life we have in Christ.
(53:24):
Cheers.
I love it.
That's a beautiful prayer and I just want to, that resonates with me very deeply and Iwant to just add to that, that we as God's people would understand again that the world of
agriculture and what we receive from God's good earth is how we are to commune with God.
(53:44):
That we don't commune with God apart from creation but through the gifts of creation andthey are to put a sense of awe and wonder in us for
how God has made the world so beautiful.
So good, man.
I don't want to just like, you know, blow smoke up y'all, but this is one of my favoriteconversations I've had in quite a while.
(54:07):
I just found it really fascinating.
Both of you are just really just well versed in this topic and I just learned somethingnew.
I thought it was really fun.
So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your hearts with us and for just how youhold these.
beliefs and these convictions with open hands and just the way that you share this messagein such love.
(54:32):
Anyway, I just was really encouraged.
Thank you so much for what you're doing and thank you for being here.
Thank you for having us.
Really a delight to be in conversation with you.
Thanks.
Oh man, welcome to the show, Randy and Gisela.
I'm so excited to have you.
Thank you so much for being here.
Absolutely.
Wonderful to be with you, Molly.
Well, I have been really looking forward to this ever since your Bible study kind of cameacross my desk.
I said, this is a conversation in eight and a half years I have never had on this show.
(00:25):
And so I'm really, really, really looking forward to this.
So but before we get into your new study and all of the things we need to get to know eachof you.
So, Randy, I'm going to have you go first.
So.
Randy, will you give us the Randy 101 to tell us who you are, what you do, and how you gotto where you are today?
Yeah, thank you so much, Molly.
Well, Randy Frazee, I have been a lead pastor for 36 years, currently at Westside FamilyChurch in the Kansas City area.
(00:54):
I am a writer and author like Gisela is, and you, talked about this earlier.
One of my more recognizable projects is called The Story, which you did with your familyyears ago.
which is really cool.
I was actually, where I'm at right now with Gisela is that I talked to my publisher andsaying, hey, it's time for us to do a project on wine for crying out loud.
(01:20):
And about a month later, they called me back and said, we want you to do it with Gisela.
And we were already acquaintances and friends.
And so it became just a wonderful project for us to be here today.
Awesome.
That's amazing.
All right, Gisela, you're up.
Absolutely.
I've been married.
I've been married for 44 years.
(01:42):
I have four grown children and five grandchildren.
Yeah.
my husband and I just this week, just on Tuesday, we celebrated 13 years of marriage.
And we were saying that, like, if somebody had told us the day we got married that, at 13years that we would just love it even more than we did then, you know, I think we would
(02:04):
have been like, yeah, I think that's possible.
But like, I don't think we really understood.
so hearing that just gives me even more encouragement that at 44 years, we're going tolove it even more than we love it right now.
So that's awesome.
Well, my name is Kisela Kreiklinger.
I grew up on a family-owned winery where my family has been making and crafting wine formany, many generations.
(02:28):
And also wine for the Lord's Supper.
And I think that profoundly shaped me as a person of faith, but I also became a theologianand have been teaching Christian spirituality.
in the academy for about seven years.
I taught at a seminary and then also at a secular university and really found that therewas a huge void in terms of theology and wine in particular but also food and that's where
(02:59):
I really felt called to speak and write into that context.
So I've been writing about that for the last 10 years.
The wine in the word video series is actually the fourth publication in that
regard.
And I still teach some in a university setting, but a lot more in churches or parachurchorganizations.
(03:25):
And on Monday, I'll be doing a wine tasting as a spirit of practice in a secular wineshop.
And I also lead wine pilgrimages to France and Germany to help Christians rediscover theWestern Christian history through food, wine, agriculture.
in the table.
that's so cool.
So fascinating.
(03:46):
I have a million questions that I will probably barely be able to scratch the surface onin this conversation.
But the first one that I have is you both kind of alluded to this.
Gisela, you said that this was something that you had kind of been felt called to study.
But Randy, you mentioned that you went to your publisher and you were like, it's abouttime somebody does a study on wine.
(04:08):
And I'm curious for you specifically, Randy, like, what was it that led you to that?
And then
for the both of you how it really made sense for the two of you to collaborate onsomething like this because it is unique and it is something that I'll be honest I haven't
really seen a whole lot of content around
Well, yes, for me and Gisela and I have in this Wine in the Word series an episode calledThe Tale of Two Wine Drinkers and we come from very different backgrounds to get to this
(04:40):
place and you know, maybe we'll have a little bit, it's a wonderful story, but on my side,you know, I came up in an unchurched home.
My parents weren't followers of Jesus, but my dad who had issues with alcohol,
Stopped drinking it was either lose my mom or stop drinking and he did but it wasn't wineIt was more beer and in hard liquors and but when I came on the scene, he was already done
(05:07):
with that So we were a teetotaling family unchristian teetotaling family and then I wenton to get become a Christian as a teenager and And it was a church that you know,
absolutely no drinking
And then I went to my undergraduate for theology, signed a covenant, went to graduateschool for theology, signed a covenant, and really became a pastor at 28.
(05:27):
No one was drinking, wasn't right.
And basically for me, was a guy at the age of 39, I was pastoring and a guy who was comingto the church who was an atheist invited us over for dinner.
He had a beautiful wine cellar and I did not want to drink the wine, but a friend told meI needed to take one for the team.
And I had a glass of wine and only found out I liked wine, but I'd never had a great glassof wine.
(05:53):
and so this began my journey at the age of 39, unlike Gisela, at the age of 39 and justcould not understand how the church got to this place in America.
And I'll stop there because, Gisela, you know, comes from Europe and has a totallydifferent perspective.
so I, I'll, I'll, I'll stop there and let her sort of dive in and.
(06:16):
We'll see then how our stories collide.
Yeah, I think it's been a really remarkable collaboration between Randy and myself.
And I think our publisher was very wise in putting us together because we come from verydifferent backgrounds.
Randy comes from, you know, an un-churched home, not drinking alcohol.
(06:38):
I grew up in the Lutheran faith.
You know, my family making and crafting wine and drinking it.
But also, I'm more of a of a mainline church, and Randy comes from a non-denominationalchurch.
And he is a male leader.
I'm a female teacher.
(07:00):
And I think because we come from such different backgrounds, we really had to sort of...
enter into this in a very purposeful way to learn to understand each other, where we'recoming from, and to create something together.
Sometimes that wasn't easy, but I think in our time where there is so much division andthere's so much sentiment that you come from somewhere else, maybe we're cautious or we
(07:31):
don't like this.
It was just beautiful to work with Randy and to come together and to create somethingtogether.
for the sake of the kingdom, because of that biblical vision, and to offer something up tothe world in a time where the church is so divided and where there's so much tension and
disagreement, and to say, you know, we as Christians are called to be bridge builders.
(07:54):
And so I feel like Randy and I build bridges towards one another so that we can cometogether to sacred scripture and to really open it up anew for the body of Christ.
And we hope that
by looking at something like wine.
And wine itself is such a bridge builder.
know, when people come together around the table and you have some wine, you have somegood food, I think it helps to sort of break down barriers and to help reconnect with one
(08:23):
another in ways that allows each one to have all different opinions and to come fromdifferent backgrounds and say, you know, in Christ we are one, God has made us one, and he
has actually given us wine.
as a social lubricant and a social glue to realize what makes us one is Christ and not thedifferent opinions, not the different cultures, not the different sexes, but that we are
(08:49):
one in Christ and that we can come and are called to come together and offer something inthe midst of the divisions that we experience and to rejoice that God is with us and that
he has given us
good and amazing things and wine is one of those beautiful and amazing gifts that we areto receive with gratitude and joy.
(09:13):
I think I find this so fascinating your different backgrounds and how they kind ofconverge together and it's interesting Randy I relate so much to you because I also grew
up not in a Christian home and But both my parents like my parents met in AA and so likewe had AA meetings in my house three nights a week and so like I grew up like I knew the
(09:34):
Lord's Prayer but
me it ended with keep coming back it works if you work it because that's how it ends atAA.
you know, so I mean, I knew the Serenity Prayer, but I just thought it was a thing thatthey said in AA.
I was, I grew up in a home where like, it was, I'd say a teetotaling home in that I wasterrified of alcohol because I just thought that I remember very vividly that I
(09:57):
was over at a friend's house in like third or fourth grade, and I'd opened up her fridgeand her parents had beer in the fridge.
And I asked her if she knew that her parents were alcoholics.
And that did not go over well.
Whereas, you know, I got saved later in life.
And then I meet my husband who grew up in a very conservative, you know, traditionalChristian home where they were teetotalers for the, you know, just to use the term for
(10:26):
you know, he was not drinking and he grew up in a home with no alcohol because ofreligious reasons.
And so it's interesting that you share these different these different backgrounds and howthey kind of came together.
Well, so let's kind of dig into this, because obviously the theme of wine in the Bible isfrom start to finish, OK, especially when we get into the New Testament and the Gospels,
(10:49):
like Jesus is regularly referencing the vine and grapes and all of those things.
And there's something like
a thousand almost a thousand references to wine in scripture.
So why do you think it has been overlooked or even considered taboo in a lot of Christiantraditions and why people have almost been afraid to touch on?
(11:12):
I'll tee up Gisela, who's a real expert here, because she really opened my eyes to a lotof things coming from a different perspective.
One of our favorite passages that we built really the study around is Psalm 104, that Godhas given us a wine as a gift.
It is a gift.
And yet we know with all gifts, like sex and marriage, for example,
(11:32):
that it is to be used according to how God intended the gift to be used.
If you use it outside of what God intended, it becomes a problem.
And that's the same thing with wine.
And Gisela came upon a great quote from Martin Luther, I'll say for maybe another time,but I just love that quote about those two ideas.
But I think what happened is that this perspective on wine is an American thing, thatactually it's not a worldwide thing, it's an American thing.
(11:59):
And I think that tees up Gisela.
to explain how we got this place.
Yeah.
I think it's really important for us to understand, you know, our own culture and our ownhistory with particular things like wine to really understand where we are at.
And I think America has a very unique history with alcohol.
(12:20):
And I actually write about that quite in some detail in Cup Overflowing, the book thatsort of we the video series is in part based on and in
in the US really came of age on hard liquor.
It was rum and whiskey, rather than wine, for example, because the pilgrims couldn't growvineyards on the East Coast.
(12:45):
They wouldn't take because of the climate.
So the country came of age on distilled spirits at a time during the IndustrialRevolution, where they not only started to mass produce distilleries, they also mass
produced
distilled spirits and hard liquor.
And for the first time in human history, you had masses of hard liquor available for theordinary person.
(13:11):
then when hard times come, for example, the Civil War or later the Great Depression,people started to self-medicate.
And it's so much easier to get intoxicated on hard liquor and become addicted to it.
And this is really when the temperance movement happened.
is as a response to the abuse of hard liquor.
(13:35):
It wasn't because the abuse of wine.
But then as the temperance movement gained momentum, they also turned against wine.
And the prohibition happened.
then really, especially for religious institutions, even after the prohibition, winebecame a taboo.
And that was primarily in the Baptist and the Methodist and Pentecostal traditions.
(14:01):
the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, the Lutheran Church, they always continue touse wine in the Eucharist.
But I think it's really important for North Americans to realize that it was sort of atragic constellation.
It was no one's fault that you couldn't grow vineyards on the East Coast, that hard liquorbecame such a primary drink and that has created a lot of havoc.
(14:28):
I think you would see a very different
context with wine and actually there are studies done that show when wine is the primarydrink of the people they are less likely to get addicted and abuse it.
So interesting.
That's really fascinating.
And I had never heard it really laid out like that.
And it just, I mean, it makes so much sense.
(14:49):
And I've always been fascinated because it is really interesting.
Like anytime I go to a European country, like we always joke that, you know, like we wentto Rome this summer and in Rome, wine was cheaper than water.
Like if you wanted to go to a restaurant, a glass of wine was cheaper than a glass ofwater or.
I mean, when we went to Portugal, it was the same thing.
(15:10):
I mean, when we went to Prague, it was the same thing.
And it's just such a part of the culture there where it's just not here.
And it's just so different.
And it's almost been abused and twisted in American culture.
And I think the way you break it down is so fascinating.
Well, I'd be curious kind of along those same lines.
And I don't know if you're better to speak to this or Randy.
(15:30):
But the reality is similar to American culture.
But throughout history,
the church, kind of big C, capital C church, has had these varied responses to alcohol andwine, and, you know, kind of from prohibition to like full acceptance.
So what do you believe is a more balanced or biblical approach to kind of navigating thatconversation around alcohol use and then also abuse within the Christian context?
(16:03):
I'll say something first and then again, I like to tea Giselauk again, because she'sreally the one who this has been a lot, 10 years in working.
For me, know, as a pastor, as a writer, as someone who loves the scripture, I just feellike it's time that we stop looking at wine through the lens of our culture.
(16:30):
Hmm.
know, we talk about this desire for us to study the Word and the Word only and let it tobe pure.
But when it comes to the topic of wine and all of its varieties of meaning fromagriculture to even the metaphor of it, it's such an important part of the Christian
journey from, like you said, Molly, from Genesis all the way to Revelation, you know, fromNoah, you know, the first, you know, wine, you know,
(16:56):
that we have in the scripture all the way to the marriage supper of the Lamb at the veryend of the Bible.
It's a very important part.
And it's just for me, it's just time for us to get honest and stop looking at thescriptures through the lens of a period of time that really didn't have anything to do
with wine per se.
It had to do with the hard liquor and let it have its rightful place in our lives.
(17:18):
And by that I mean rightful place.
It is not to be abused like any other gift that God's given us.
And Giesel and I go a long way.
to really laying that out and talking that through so that people have a sense that yeah,any gift that God gives us has to be placed in its rightful boundaries, but to completely
eliminate.
I had one pastor in Kansas City text me, Instagram me and said, Randy, I don't mind aperson having a glass of wine, but why are you mixing the Bible in with it?
(17:45):
And I said, my friend, I love you to pieces, buddy, but there are so many references.
You mentioned nearly 1,000.
know, references to wine or wine related topics in the Bible.
It's a lot.
It's a lot more than most of the stuff we talk about on Sunday morning.
So for me, it's just really time and I'm old enough now as a pastor where if I get intotrouble for really wanting to highlight a sense of what God is actually doing in his word,
(18:10):
then I'm good with that.
Yeah.
that's so good.
Yeah.
What about you, Gisela?
Yeah, I think what Randy is saying is so true that, you know, this is a, it's a, it's acultural perspective on the Christian faith.
You have to realize, Molly, before the mid 19th century, all denominations affirmed wineas a gift from God and used it in the Lord's Supper.
(18:32):
It only with, only when Thomas Wells started pasteurization to grape juice in the 19thcentury, that some denominations started using a grape juice.
So it's a fairly recent development when you look at the over 2000 year of church history.
(18:53):
And I think I agree with Randy, it's time that we revisited this because it is a gift fromGod.
Now the church has become quite good in hosting AA meetings or Al-Anon meetings to helpthose who really struggle with alcohol abuse or have loved ones.
But the church has not been good to really talk about, well, this is a gift from God.
(19:16):
It is a very important theme, bringing us to the Lord's Supper, bringing us to the table,to a life of hospitality, but also agriculture to realize that our faith is an embodied
faith.
We commune with God through the world that he has made, including food and wine.
so in Psalm 104, says that wine is a bringer of joy.
(19:38):
Now, joy is a...
very, very important part of the Christian faith.
And so I think it's time for the church to reclaim wine as a gift from God.
Because we have not dealt with the subject matter, the secular world now defines themeaning of wine for us.
And so wine drinking has become quite elitist, very top down.
(20:01):
You you have the wine experts that tell you what you're supposed to smell and taste ratherthan
And it's very intimidating.
And a lot of people feel like, that's not for me because I can't, all these names, allthis talk.
It's a very rationalized approach actually to wine because it's all about definingminutely the flavor profile and where it's coming from and all of that.
(20:23):
And that can be very, very helpful in helping us understand wine.
But wine is a gift from God to liberate us to enjoy wine in our own terms.
Each one of us will...
taste and experience a particular wine in very unique ways.
In Germany, we actually have a saying that wine is God's way of kissing humanity.
(20:47):
we actually, each one of us has a very particular memory bank of flavor profiles by whichwe identify flavors in the wine.
But they are in turn connected to deeper memories and emotions.
that can go even back to childhood and all of these things can be evoked if we giveourselves permission to listen and pay attention to both the wine and how we experience
(21:18):
it.
But when the wine experts come and they do their presentation, I see so many people justshutting down.
I'm like, I don't know how to do this.
I don't know how to smell this and that.
But in fact, we have been given this incredible capacity for smell and taste and forsensing.
these things in our bodies.
So I think it's time, as Randy said, we need to move on from sort of the cultural, thepainful history that we've had as a culture with alcohol into really single out wine,
(21:50):
which has so profoundly shaped so many cultures and civilizations as a beautiful gift thathelps us to reconnect with each other, with our bodies, with God and the earth, where this
beautiful
you know, that the vines and the wine crafting process emerges.
Hmm.
(22:11):
Yeah.
here?
think it's really important, I think for your listeners, particularly you being a youngmother, I think that whenever we keep this perspective in America that wine is taboo, then
I think young people don't get properly discipled in the experience of this gift.
And that's how it gets out of control.
And I think Gisela was raised in this situation.
(22:32):
And so I was not, but we raised our children to not hide the fact that we drank wine.
We don't drink.
before five o'clock.
We don't drink wine every night.
We're having two couples over tonight.
My wife's making chicken cacciatore and I'm gonna pair some lovely wine with it.
It's gonna be fantastic.
But with our kids at the age of 17, at their birthday, we sat a small glass of wine attheir table under our guidance.
(23:00):
And today we have four grown children that do not have an alcohol problem, but they have awonderful relationship.
with wine.
And I think that if the Christian community would hear us out, that if you leave it astaboo and do not talk about it, there's a greater chance they're going to abuse it as
opposed to being discipled under your roof.
Yeah.
Man, think this is such a, man, this is such an important conversation and I have so manythings I would like to touch on.
(23:27):
And there's a couple of things, one that just both of you have alluded to and I think isreally beautiful.
And I will be honest, I have never heard it worded like this.
And I think for me, it was a lot of things like I'm in the word, I'm in the word daily.
I have never considered like just almost the way you worded it, the way you word that wineis a gift from God and it's not to be abused.
(23:48):
Immediately, the thing that came to mind was sex is a gift from God and it's not to beabused.
Marriage is a gift from God and it's not to be abused.
know, food is a gift from God and it's not to be abused.
I mean, we could go on and on and on and I've never put wine almost in the same categoryas sex or marriage.
And the way that our culture often will twist and just like almost like
(24:17):
I don't know what the word I'm looking for is, but you know what I mean, like, just takethis thing that is really beautiful and then our culture puts it in a context that it was
never meant to be in.
And so ultimately then yes, it does get abused and it does get just put in a context thatagain, it wasn't meant to be in and it becomes something that God didn't design it for.
(24:38):
And I'd never thought about it like that with wine.
then, so for...
One, I think that is really beautiful and I think helps to, when we look at it throughthat lens and we almost like look at it and educate and help people, especially Christians
to have a right theology of wine, rather than just like a healthy theology of sex.
(25:04):
When we do that, it creates a space to be able to have these conversations and to see thatwine is a symbol of joy and blessing.
And then we're able to reconcile that with the Bible's warnings about drunkenness and sexand all of those things.
And then to your point, Randy, about like with your kids.
And so this is something that, you know, my husband and I have had a lot of conversations.
(25:27):
We go back and forth.
So our kids are 11 and nine.
And, you know, one thing from a very early age, we were having conversations with our kidsabout sex.
And we created an environment with our children that they are safe to ask any question.
We started at an age appropriate level when they were about four or five, even a littlebit younger as far as like talking about body parts and all of those kinds of things.
(25:53):
And as I've gotten older, we've given them more information that's again on their levelfrom a biblical perspective and created a space where they ride the school bus.
to a public school.
So let's just say they hear all of the things.
And we've created a place where it's like, OK, so if you hear something, I don't want yougoing to Google to find out that information of what that thing is.
(26:17):
So I would like you to come to mom and dad.
And for better or for worse, our children have a relationship with us in that they cancome to us and ask us anything.
And sometimes that makes for really awkward conversations.
But we sit in that awkwardness.
And so for us as well, we've had that conversation with our children around alcohol.
both of my husband and I are kind of trying to unlearn how we were raised as far as howour parents, because again, like he came from a background where it was no alcohol at any
(26:47):
time.
And then I came from a background of no alcohol at any time because my parents wererecovering alcoholics.
And so we've both in adulthood had to kind of come to it from and unlearn things thatwe've learned.
And so we have open and honest conversations about what does it look like?
Like what does, what is alcoholism?
Why is it a bad thing?
what, and just begin to point our kids to what does a healthy relationship with alcohollook like?
(27:13):
We don't have all the answers to this, but this is a thing because at the end of the day,like you were saying, Randy is when you, when you create an air of secrecy or an air of
taboo around something,
whether we like it or not, our children's sinful nature is it's only going to make themthat much more curious.
(27:35):
You know, maybe you luck out and you get a kid who's like the rule follower by the book.
I don't think those are my children.
I was certainly not that kid.
So but man, this is so good.
This is so good.
Is there anything else you wanted to kind of add to that?
I want to make sure that we have time.
(27:56):
You know, I want to say something that I think is really important and I'd like to tee upGisela to talk about something that I think will be a little bit edgy.
But I think we have to bring it, right?
think from a theological perspective, you know, from a biblical narrative perspective, thethree most important meals in the Bible, the Passover in the Old Testament, the Eucharist
(28:22):
or the Lord's Supper,
time of Jesus and the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Those are three very deep, important, convivial, spiritual, right in the middle of all ofthat is wine.
And I just feel so bad for believers who have not yet discovered or allowed themselves todiscover the incredible depth of what that wine means symbolically and actually physically
(28:48):
as it relates to the sacrifice of Christ for us.
and a great being crushed and what all of that means for us is absolutely important.
the kind of edgy kind of thing is Gisela uses a term that I think is really wonderful, butit can also, well, it could be interesting.
She uses the phrase, holy tipsiness.
(29:11):
Because we say, God's given to make our hearts glad.
He's given us this gift to make our hearts glad.
Well, the obvious, there's lots of, in the video series, we talk about
three or four different ways in which wine makes our heart glad.
But one of the obvious ones is this thing that she calls holy tipsiness.
So I'm going to set her up to explain what she means by that.
Okay, I'm into hearing out the edgy comment, Gisela.
(29:35):
Well, Molly, first of all, think given the kind of difficult history that we've had inthis country, and that it's not really our fault, it's just part of an unfortunate set of
constellations, we have to deal with a heritage and inheritance where we have to heal.
You know, if you come from a family with alcohol addiction, it's very important to allowpeople to heal.
(29:59):
But at the same time, we need to find a constructive way forward and say,
How are we as families, as communities, as church community, actually looking at how toembrace this gift well?
And I think this is the conversation that we want to have.
We want to say it is a gift from God.
We are aware that people are suffering from addictions and we want to take care of them.
(30:21):
But the sick should not determine the life of the healthy.
So for the healthy community, we need to say, let's talk about it.
And then let's look at a way forward.
What is that?
healthy and wholesome way of bringing wine into our lives.
And both in the study guide for wine in the world and also in my book, Overflowing, wehave actually added an appendix to help you as a family or church communities start this
(30:49):
kind of conversation.
so, and in that context, I want to say, you know, when we think about intoxication, wealways think about it in negative ways.
But there is actually a level of intoxication that is quite beautiful.
It's not one we completely shut down or where we get out of control, but where we havejust had enough alcohol or wine that we can sort of relax.
(31:13):
We let down our guard.
We become more open and vulnerable.
Confessions come more easily of pleasure and delight in confessions of failure anddisappointment and loss.
And laughter comes more easily because we are more relaxed.
We live in cultures where we have to put up a facade about how successful we are, how muchwe have it together.
(31:38):
But where are those places where we can really put down our guard?
And I've found that when you are around the dinner table and you have some wine and enjoysome good food, it's very hard to keep up your facade.
You start to relax, you start to enjoy, you start to laugh.
That's when you become more vulnerable.
And that's where I think the gift of holy tipsiness comes in.
(32:02):
It's just that slight level of intoxication where you just relax and you enjoy and yousavor and you laugh and you smile and you become more vulnerable.
Mm-hmm.
something that we're not making up.
You Gisela has done a lot of research about our church fathers like Christostom.
We've looked at a lot of our reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin.
(32:26):
We've looked at even more modern folks like C.S.
Lewis and they're all saying this.
Cause I think of like, is she allowed to say that?
Well, we've been saying this for a very long time about what an appropriate experiencewith wine does to conviviality, to...
conversation around the table.
we're just saying, I love what the geese said about, know, we shouldn't design the wholeworld around something that that people are sick from.
(32:51):
There's a bunch of us, the majority of us are healthy.
And we want to have this wonderful access to this experience.
And the US Surgeon General has announced in 2023 that we're dealing with a lonelinessepidemic.
Yeah, yes.
never, never meant to be drunk alone.
It was always designed to be at the table and promoting conviviality.
and Giselle and I have strong beliefs that this is something in addition to wine, food andcommunity is something that we desperately need in our country.
(33:20):
And can I add to that, Randy?
In the biblical worldview, wine is always an invitation to the table.
First of all, to the Lord's Supper, and then to the shared table where we eat and drinkand learn what it means to be families and communities.
And so it's always meant to be shared.
(33:41):
It's always meant to build a stronger.
social fabric into our communities and that is what's missing in our time.
so wine is really an invitation to community, to sharing the gifts of God.
know, wine and bread and all food that the earth brings forth are gifts from God.
(34:02):
They're not just things out there that we need to eat.
They're actually God's love language.
God has made the world in such a way that it brings forth beautiful and delicious things.
When you think about the story of the Garden of Eden, in the very beginning of the Bible,Eden means it's the Garden of pleasure and delight.
(34:24):
The original vision of how God wants to be with his people is that we live in harmony inthis world with God, with each other, and enjoy what the earth brings forth, including
wine.
Man, I am fascinated by this conversation.
I just think the way that you frame this, even I, if I'm being honest, I'm kind of sittinghere and I'm almost sitting in a little bit of discomfort because it is so new to anything
(34:52):
I've ever heard in the context of the study of scripture.
And I don't say that as a negative thing.
I say that as like, anytime that where you're feeling discomfort,
is when God is shifting our view on things.
And I read a book a few months ago, this is an older book, but it just it reminds me ofkind of similar to what y'all were saying.
(35:15):
And it's a book called Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes by E.
Randolph Richards.
And it's a I highly recommend it.
And basically what he does is he talks about how the Western Church has misinterpretedscripture over time.
And we've read
scripture through our own Western eyes and we're not reading it through, you know, MiddleEastern eyes, which is where the Bible was written.
(35:40):
it's just, and so it kind of breaks all these things down and it's almost something that Ithink that a lot who are listening, and I'm kind of speaking specifically to the people
who are listening, who might also be sitting in discomfort and they might hear a term likeholy tipsiness and they might be like, what blasphemy?
Like, and I just, I'm encouraging anybody who's maybe sitting in that discomfort to belike,
(36:02):
This is something I've never heard before.
Why do I believe what I believe?
I started seminary this year, my second semester of seminary.
And one of the very first things that we talked about in seminary is, is, you know, thestudy of epistemology.
Why do we know what we know?
The study of the thought, all of that.
And one of the things my very first professor said to us is like, what you need to sit in,in seminary, is this notion of you are
(36:30):
going to learn things that are different from what you've been taught.
And you're going to sit in moments of discomfort where you think you knew something, youthought you knew something, and the truth was actually something different.
And I feel like this conversation, a conversation around something like that is so healthyand good for us to, because what it does is it gives us a clearer, more vibrant picture of
(36:58):
God.
And so I say all of that to kind of set up this next question and that is for those whoare sitting in that discomfort or maybe they're just like, this is like the this is brand
new information to me or whatever or even somebody who's like, yeah, I've kind of alwaysthought that but I didn't really know what in scripture backs that up.
(37:20):
And I know you reference Psalm 104.
Was there a particular passage or a particular story or particular bit in your researchthat you came across that really was almost like a light bulb moment for you in kind of
framing a right theology around wine?
Kiswa?
(37:41):
I think Psalm 104, certainly one of those passages, God gave wine to make glad the heartsof humanity, captures a lot of what we're talking about.
you know, the Psalm 104, they call it a creation song because it sort of retells thenarrative of creation, but then it brings wine in and to realize that creation is a gift.
(38:05):
and we're part of this community of creation.
But wine has a very particular role.
It's to bring us joy.
It's not about just surviving in this life.
It is about flourishing and gathering as a community to rejoice that God is our creatorand redeemer and that he has given us this beautiful life.
(38:29):
So even though I have a lot of other favorite passages, I feel Psalm 104
is a really key psalm in that passage about wine, really key in understanding the rolethat wine has, that it is God's love language.
know, the song of songs compares the wooing of two lovers in sex to savoring and enjoyingwine.
(38:53):
They're both gifts from God, but wine has a very particular role.
It brings joy to our lives and to our communities.
I would throw also in, we do a whole session on the wedding feast of Cana.
I just feel like there's so many things going on, you know, that Jesus's first miracle isto turn the water into wine, unlike some denominations who think he turned the wine back
(39:20):
into water, you know, or, you know, that it was obviously the best wine and that it, youknow, obviously was fermented.
You know, there's been a long season where people have tried to convince us that the wineof the Bible was unfermented, that somehow, you know, Thomas Welch wasn't the first guy
who figured this out.
So it's a bunch of desires, as the book you've just quoted, that's trying to help PG upor, you know, aggerate the Bible, you know, and try to clean it up and save Jesus from
(39:51):
himself, you know, helping him.
It really wasn't wine.
And then also just the imagery that Jesus is setting up as the bridegroom.
know that he's not only the guest here, but he's actually setting up the fact that thewine he's going to provide at the marriage supper of the lamb and the wedding feast that's
coming.
There's just such depth there to the teachings of Jesus that you just, your eyes open upand go, okay, that's it, that's it.
(40:17):
I'm no longer going to keep this from the people that at least I teach and serve.
I want to give them a healthy understanding of this.
Gisela and are very much healthy and we understand all the pain that people have.
We're all into that and we talk about that, but we're not going to let any longer go tonot have this.
Gisela wants a national conversation on this so that we might be able to really get to theheart of what God wants us to.
(40:41):
For believers between now and the rest of their life to be kept from this amazing
Discovery you don't even have to drink or like wine, but you should know about what wineis teaching us in God So it's that time
May I add to that?
The church has always had a prophetic role in the world.
(41:03):
We as God's children are to show the world how to live.
And we are to show the world how to embrace wine well and allow it to do its good workamong us.
mean, wine has been, for good reason, called a culture shaper.
It has shaped so many of the great civilizations of the world.
(41:24):
And I think it can, know, the US is going through a really, really hard time right now.
And I feel like wine can have a really important role in calling us back to the table,calling us back to conversations, allowing us to sort of get out of that mold of
antagonism to realize we're all here in America to be grateful for this country and tofind a way forward.
(41:53):
where we can heal as communities and as a society, and we can be creative about how tofind ways to one another again.
And wine can have a really, really important role.
But I think the church has been called to show culture how to receive it well.
But if we don't receive it at all, how can we be salt and light in this regard?
(42:14):
And I feel like we can, I want to challenge the church to say, you know, scripture teachesus it's an important gift from God.
It's to shape us with joy and creativity and connectedness.
And it can do really, really important things, not just in the church community, but inthe culture at large.
(42:34):
But we as the church have always been called to show how to live and how to live well, asGod has intended it.
And I think we need to do that.
Okay, I hope if you have time I have like two more questions that I really want to askbecause one I think again as we've kind of been alluding to this but how do you respond in
(42:58):
in empathy and understanding but also in truth to those who view drinking wine even inmoderation as like completely incompatible with a life of holiness because I've heard it a
lot
of how it is completely incompatible for somebody who is trying to live a sanctified, setapart, holy life to consume even in moderation wine.
(43:28):
How do you respond to that?
How do you, almost a gentle rebuke?
I don't know how you view it or I'm curious.
I would go, I'll speak to that first.
I go to Paul's teaching about the weaker and stronger brother.
In that passages of scripture, he used food offered to idols.
(43:52):
basically there were people who, Paul says, no, we're liberated from that now.
And so therefore, we're all freed from that.
But he said, if you are the person who still feels in your heart,
you know, that it would be a violation of your relationship with God.
Then he said, then go ahead and live that out, but don't make everyone else do it.
(44:15):
And so my point of view, in this particular case, you know, the person who has thisparticular strong view against wine in the passage of Paul's teaching would actually be
considered the weaker brother.
And I know that's offensive to some, but that's in reality what is actually the case.
And the idea that those of us who have the ability to look at the scriptures,
(44:35):
Feel the liberation that we have in Christ and to enjoy this gift.
He's given to us I think Paul's saying you're the little bit of the stronger person whounderstands the liberation that comes through Christ and back to this original gift he has
but also have a sense of respect for the person who has a deep conviction, know, I Just areal simple example.
I have you know in writing You know, I don't my publisher doesn't like us to capitalizethe pronouns of like he you know speaking to God so in all of my writings, you know
(45:04):
You know, I don't have a capital H every time Jesus is referred to.
And some people just, my wife included, like, no, it's just something that I think is apoint of reverence.
And I said, what's bad grammar?
But if it means something to you to capitalize, you know, the pronouns of God, then youshould do it with vigor.
Just don't make me feel that I have to do it.
(45:25):
You know what I'm saying?
And I think wine is one of those categories is how I handle it.
And just like in the subject of politics, if I sense that someone's very deeply offended,you know, by that, you know, we won't serve wine and dinner.
If they're deeply offended by it, I won't bring it up as a topic, just like I won't bringup Republican and Democrat on the golf course.
So that's kind of not my point of view.
(45:47):
I love that also side note.
So I released my first book last year and in in my drafted manuscript when I submitted itto my editor, I had all of the pronouns of God capitalized and then my publisher made me
change it and I remember being like, No, I want to leave it.
And finally, I just was like, whatever, like
(46:09):
Then it was like they had sent me back the edited manuscript and they had changed it.
I was like, I can't go through and change every single one again in like my 80,000 wordmanuscript.
Like, and I just had to be like, Lord, you know, I did it first.
Like, but anyway, that's just, that's just an aside.
Yeah, well, I want to add something to what Randy said in that regard.
(46:30):
think my sort of I've taught around this for a long time and traveled a lot.
I think as I come, if people are willing to talk about it, you know, a lot of peoplearen't willing to talk about, but those who are willing to talk about, I usually have sort
of this approach of compassion.
I want to, I probe a little bit more and say, tell me more about that.
(46:51):
Why, you know, why, why do you feel that way?
Obviously if people say, well, you know,
wine in the Bible is grape juice, there's not much that you can do, but you have torealize a lot of people have a history of alcohol abuse in their family and a lot of the
communities that react still so strongly, they might have more abuse in their story.
(47:12):
And when you deal with people who have been traumatized, rational arguing doesn't usuallyget you anywhere, but by compassionate listening, you can at least understand where
they're from.
And it's also a generational thing.
think there is a new generation that doesn't feel that way from the same denomination.
(47:32):
They feel free to go and have a beer or glass of wine.
And I think sometimes things change with a new generation.
You could spend all your time trying to convince an older generation when they have a hardtime hearing that because of where they come from and how they have been very painfully
impacted by alcohol abuse.
(47:53):
And so I feel like
my role has been to sort of be compassionate and to listen and to understand and toencourage them to heal.
And then usually when I encounter a younger generation that is more open to it, I can talkto them not only about wine as a gift, but I can also be, and I write about that in my
(48:14):
book, Up Overflowing.
I interview a lot of the younger generation that comes from teetotaling families and theyare now embracing alcohol, but not very well.
They now tip into what I call this yin yang, from not drinking at all to drinking toomuch, not drinking at all to drinking too much.
And that younger generation really needs to learn how to do it well.
(48:40):
For example, can give you an example.
This one young lady, she lives in an affluent part of town with little children, and theyhave children's parties and invite all their friends over.
And they serve...
alcoholic beverages to the adults in the afternoon like strong seltzer or beer and I'mlike wow that they would never do that in my culture nor do I think it's a very healthy
(49:05):
way in front of your children to model starting drinking early in the day but they don'thave any idea no one has taught them no one has taught them the idea that maybe at a
children's party adults should drink you know mineral water or tea or coffee
and wait until five o'clock or the evening meal.
(49:26):
Or I was at a golf tournament with my husband.
It was a charitable golf tournament and we started early in the morning and you were ableto pick up various beverages, among them beer and hard seltzer.
And I'm like, is it really healthy to offer alcoholic beverages at nine o'clock in themorning, go out onto the golf course?
And I want to say from Europe, coming from Europe originally,
(49:50):
and having made this my home, said, it's not wise.
I think it would be wise for us as a culture to say, let's not do that.
Let's not encourage starting to drink early.
It is not a healthy way.
But a younger generation doesn't know how to do it.
We need to teach them.
Yeah.
goes back to the discipleship thing, Molly, that I mentioned earlier, is that we cancontinue to avoid this subject and make a taboo and fail in our parenting to disciple our
(50:17):
children in a healthy relationship with this wonderful gift, just like he has given usmarriage and sex.
And so you would not want to leave that, and parents who leave that topic to their kids tofind out on Google and Instagram and college.
We are called to disciple our
our children and so I think this is the what we're talking about is the best way to have ahealthy relationship with alcohol and wine particularly is our passion when it is actually
(50:48):
brought up and talked about in a biblical way while your children are still in the nest ifwe fail to do that I think in some ways we have failed as a parent to give our children
what they needed
That's so fascinating.
really, I'm really fascinated by this.
And as you were talking, Gizela, I went immediately in my head is the story in Actschapter two, when Peter's like, we're not drunk.
(51:15):
It's only nine in the morning.
Because all the people think that he's drunk.
And he's like, we're not drunk.
For some reason, that story always really makes me laugh every single time.
He's like, we're not drunk.
too early to be drunk like
Yeah.
Yeah.
in that story that is just really hilarious.
He's like, I mean, if it was five o'clock, who knows?
But it's not AM.
(51:36):
we...
Anyway, that story.
Yeah.
He's like, by the way, it's not AM.
That cracks me up.
Okay.
Well, obviously, we have run out of time.
I have 700 other questions I want to ask you and I can't.
But that's just what I would love for you to leave us with.
obviously, for the listeners, will have...
(51:57):
all the links to how you can get this study and do this study with your small group oryour family or your church.
You know, all the resources to your books, Gisela and yours, Randi, I just I'm reallyexcited to just kind of again, begin to uncover this and these types of conversations are
(52:18):
so important and so healthy because it just again, it gets us learning something new.
I learned new things that I didn't know before and I just
find it really fascinating.
the last question that I want to ask is really just around what is your prayer for thisstudy?
(52:38):
Like if the people that are listening take away just one core message from your study,what do you pray and hope that it will be?
Yeah, I guess I would say I would pray that they would, maybe for the very first time, adoor would be opened up for them to see this beautiful gift that God has given and that
(53:00):
this gift would bring them joy and that this gift would bring them community andconviviality and to rediscover the table again with wine in the center of it as God
intended.
and that we will, if we never meet in this life, that at the marriage supper of the Lamb,we'll give a toast to the wonderful life we have in Christ.
(53:24):
Cheers.
I love it.
That's a beautiful prayer and I just want to, that resonates with me very deeply and Iwant to just add to that, that we as God's people would understand again that the world of
agriculture and what we receive from God's good earth is how we are to commune with God.
(53:44):
That we don't commune with God apart from creation but through the gifts of creation andthey are to put a sense of awe and wonder in us for
how God has made the world so beautiful.
So good, man.
I don't want to just like, you know, blow smoke up y'all, but this is one of my favoriteconversations I've had in quite a while.
(54:07):
I just found it really fascinating.
Both of you are just really just well versed in this topic and I just learned somethingnew.
I thought it was really fun.
So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your hearts with us and for just how youhold these.
beliefs and these convictions with open hands and just the way that you share this messagein such love.
(54:32):
Anyway, I just was really encouraged.
Thank you so much for what you're doing and thank you for being here.
Thank you for having us.
Really a delight to be in conversation with you.
Thanks.
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