April 2, 2025 • 58 mins
I’m thrilled to welcome back my dear friend Mary Marantz for her third appearance on the show! If you’ve been here a while, you already know how incredible Mary is- she’s a powerhouse in every sense of the word. As a podcaster, author, speaker, photographer, and coach, she truly does it all.
Today, we’re diving into her latest book, Underestimated, which releases later this month. We’re talking about what it means to be underestimated, why fear is a boring liar, and how playing small was never part of your purpose. This conversation was so good and I’m so excited to share it with you!
4:23 – Mary 301
• Catching up since Mary’s second book
• The experience writing Underestimated
• The journey leading up to this book
6:25 – The Starting Line
• Starting over in your 40s
• It’s never too late to achieve your goals
• Untangling limiting beliefs
13:32 – Fear Is A Boring Liar
• Fear often repeats the same lies
• Fear’s jealousy of creativity
• How the enemy uses deception
• Flipping the fear narrative
27:31 – The Power of Naming Fear
• How unaddressed fears can lead to burnout
• Having an accountability partner
• Mirrors and microscopes
• Learning and growing from your mistakes
50:09 – Closing Thoughts
• Who this book is for
• Mary’s prayer for her readers
• Pre-ordering your copy of Underestimated
FEATURED QUOTES
“What does it look like for us to quit playing small on the good work that's been prepared for us in advance?”
“This book is for the one who feels like they're being called up to greatness. They're being called up to more, but at the very same time, you simultaneously doubt that someone like you could ever get there.”
“God did not call you to play small. He did not call you to shrink back. He made you for more than you realize.”
Learn more about Mary:
https://marymarantz.com/
Grab a FREE chapter of Mary’s book, Underestimated:
https://marymarantz.myflodesk.com/underestimatedch1
The Mary Marantz Show:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mary-marantz-show/id1478272407
Achiever Type Quiz:
https://www.marymarantz.com/quiz
Mary on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marymarantz/?hl=en
Mary on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/marymarantz/
Mary on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marymarantz/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
it is a fantastic day because I have just my dear dear friend Mary Morance on the show fornot the first, not the second, maybe not even the third, but we think it might be the
third.
I don't know.
We've lost count at this point.
Mary Morance is here for the third, fourth, fifth, who knows what time.
Mary, I'm so, so glad that you're here.
(00:22):
Welcome.
my gosh, Molly, I love you with my whole puffy heart.
Thank you so much for having me back, back, back, maybe even back again.
We talked about velvet jackets last time, so I'm going to expect that.
Yes.
your last time.
And I'm telling you, you were one of the first to receive the cult, the very, very soughtafter velvet jacket with my face on it.
(00:51):
Listen, I want it big.
I want it all across my back with wings.
Oh my gosh.
Well, I was thinking about this as I was kind of just doing prep for this episode and allof that.
And I was trying to think like, and maybe we've talked about this before, but I was likethinking back on when we first met and, then I was thinking about, was like, well, I know
(01:14):
we knew each other for a little while before we met in person, but I mean, it has been 10years since we both spoke at that conference in Charleston.
That was in 2015.
Wow.
so like we've known each other well over a decade now, which is just, how did that happen?
Like it doesn't feel like it both is like feels like I've known you a long time.
(01:38):
And then also it doesn't feel like I've known you over a decade.
and so just, watching you, over the years, as you have, you know, shifted from photographyto writing and speaking to, this is now you're, you're about to release your third book.
It's just incredible and it's just it's such an a gift to be able to witness and so I justwanted to say that right off the bat as As I'm just so dang proud of you and just What a
(02:09):
gift that you are putting out into the the world You are living out first Peter 410 ofusing the gifts that God's given you To serve others and you do that through your podcast
and through your writing and I always I always tell you this too
and this book is no different, is you are a painter with words.
You just, really are, and this book is that.
(02:32):
And so with all of that, like me just starting off just by telling you how wonderful youare, I know, you're welcome.
You just have me just to wake you up.
Good morning, Mary.
You are amazing.
Well, so we need you to have us give give us the Mary 301 because the last time you wereon you gave the Mary 201 and that was kind of the update.
(02:56):
So here we are.
We're becoming well like we're getting PhDs and Mary Marantz over here.
So give us the Mary 301.
So like since you released your second book slow growth and now you've got underestimatedcoming like what what's been happening in your life?
Well, I feel like the short answer is underestimated and that's basically all I've donefor the last like year and a half like no joke I wrote for 12 hours a day for 12 months to
(03:24):
get this book out into the world It is the heaviest lift I've done on any of the threebooks by far and it's also the one I'm the most proud of which is a big statement because
dirt is my first book and that's you know my story of growing up in a single-ed trailerbefore going on to yell for law school and Going, you know the sort of journey back home
to make peace with your past and what is a story like that?
that we're sort of familiar with the humble beginnings to the Ivy League.
(03:47):
What does that look like through the lens of grace?
then Slow Growth Equals Strong Roots is, you know, a book about once you'd make peace withyour past, how do you give up achieving for your worth?
And so they have all sort of built on one another, leading us to underestimated, which isnow that you've made peace with your past and now that you're no longer achieving for your
worth, you're, you know, creating and building and working from worth rather than forworth.
(04:08):
What does it look like for us to quit playing small on the good work that's been preparedfor us in advance?
and so, you know, I feel like they we always talk about you write the book that you needand I feel like I've spent 45 years preparing to to write about being underestimated and
we can get into all of it, but I thought it was gonna be a book about when the worldunderestimates us and it for sure is that's in there, but it ended up being about 80 %
(04:33):
when we do it to ourselves.
So that was fun for to wrestle through for 12 hours a day.
Why do we do this to ourselves?
Well, I feel like that actually kind of leads me to I've kind of a few things from thebook that I haven't had a chance to finish it yet, but I did start it because I just got a
copy
I know.
You are the champ.
It was like, hi, can you do this in three days?
(04:54):
Great.
Yeah, so I've been speed reading, but so I have started it.
But and I tell you, like I said, this is just this is so you in so many ways.
And so I actually feel like one of the points I wanted to hit is a great starting point.
No pun intended.
And that's sort of this the starting line.
And this is from your chapter one.
And you talk about how starting over is a rolling boulder.
(05:15):
And
I want to read an excerpt.
says, day by day, some of us are out here unraveling a lifetime of limiting beliefs,turning lead weights tied up around our ankles.
Forgive us if we get tripped up.
We're doing the work.
It's just that our work involves healing decades old traumas, moving away from wild eyedscarcity to finally believing once and for all, we've stumbled our way into safety.
(05:40):
It's sorting through the generations deep tangle of beliefs about what we are capable ofand what happens to a person when they finally get.
And it's this like, my gosh, you just it's this so tend you write so tenderly about howlong it takes some of us to even begin to start something.
(06:00):
And so I want you to kind of speak to that speak to the person listening who feels behindor late or that they are like too messy to reach their potential.
And the reason
I felt led to talk about this to start off is because I turned 40 this year and I feellike I keep talking about this on the podcast because it's like this looming thing that is
(06:28):
ahead.
But I'm actually, I say that in a lot of ways, like I'm not afraid to turn 40.
I'm actually very excited to turn 40.
I feel like the forties, I feel like I'm ready for my forties.
Like I'm ready to live my best life in my 40.
But there are a lot of things that I
in lot of ways want to do.
(06:50):
And I will admit that I sometimes wrestle with a, is it too late?
Like, am I too late?
And so that's why I kind of wanted to start at that point.
So would you kind of just talk about that, about why this is such a big part of this book?
Yeah, let me just start with the 40s because let me tell you something when I was 20 25and I heard women in their 40s saying listen your 40s are amazing you like run out of
(07:21):
filters you run out of like Twisting yourself.
Yeah, basically basically I Was like oh the lies these women have to tell themselves, youknow, I am here to tell you I'm gonna be 45 in May.
I'm here to tell you
I can speak from the midway of the mountain on the 40s and it is everything they said andmore.
Like there will be hard things for sure.
(07:43):
know, physical like body things like hormones are a very real thing, whatever.
This is not what I thought we were going to talk about, but that's okay.
But like the unraveling and there's a lot in that.
I think you see a lot of that in underestimated.
There's a part where I talk about we were not meant to be this.
silent screaming string of pretty maids all in a row.
(08:06):
This cut and paste paint by numbers repeating, you know, what the world tells us to be.
It's much more poetic in the book, but that's the general idea.
And I think there is this unraveling, un- you know, unstitching coming apart at the seamswhere the light can get in between this before and this after.
All of that happens in your 40s and I'm here for it.
(08:26):
And I'm so excited to meet Molly in her 40s.
Thank you!
Thank you!
Real fun!
So all of that to say, I think that the society would love to tell us that if we haven'tdone it by the time we turn 40, we're not going to do it.
And it's just not true.
For most of us, this is of course not guaranteed, but for most of us, we're hoping we'regoing to be well into our 70s, our 80s, our 90s and beyond.
(08:52):
And that's a lot of time to say, life's pretty much done for me when I hit 40.
So we are just getting started.
I just wanted to speak to that.
Yeah.
Yes, about this idea of feeling, I like what you said about if you feel too messy to dowhat you were put here to do, you feel like you're behind, you feel like it's too late.
(09:13):
It's already too late is one of fear's most boring and favorite lies to use on us.
And we'll talk about that, I'm sure, if you're being a boring, really boring liar.
But I even want to kind of like just sit in that edginess for a second.
And I want to speak to the person listening.
I bet it's a bunch of people listening.
where it's all of that that we've been talking about.
And it's also this other thing where you feel like whatever you have tried to do in life,it's as if you're pushing up against resistance.
(09:38):
You're pushing up against a brick wall.
You you're trying to climb the mountain.
There's a running metaphor through the whole book of pushing the boulder up the mountainonly to get to your almost to your breakthrough moment.
You blink, you lose your grip, you lose your way and the boulder rolls all the way backdown the mountain.
Meanwhile, other people, they implement, they execute, they achieve.
They just keep right on trucking Elwood style.
(09:59):
What?
Like it's hard?
And you can't understand why you keep starting over or why every step feels like it's likewaist deep through molasses.
If you are listening to this and you are what I like to lovingly call a hard story person,whether that was when you were little or it's been a more recent hard story, and it just
feels like no matter what you do, no matter your best efforts, it's like the more you tryto push up the mountain, there's like a 10 ton force pushing you back down.
(10:26):
Yeah.
This book is for you.
And so that whole first chapter is about like, let's just lay it all out there.
Wiley Coyote about to get his come up in style.
Like, why do we teeter on the brink of everything and then make eye contact with everyonewatching at home and the bottom falls out?
This is why it's so hard and especially so hard for some of us who, you know, we're doingthe work.
(10:50):
It's just that our work involves untangling a lifetime of limiting beliefs before we canreally make it up that hill.
Yeah, and I personally like, so my husband is a big Greek mythology geek.
And so I love any reference to Sisyphus and his, know, and I think it's a beautifulanalogy to relate to or to connect to because it is that, you know, famous story that so
(11:17):
many of us are familiar with of, you know, he was, Sisyphus was punished by Zeus andhis...
His punishment was he was going to just have to roll a boulder up a hill for the entiretyof eternity and how so many of us have done that to ourselves.
Well, we are punished by our own making.
(11:37):
Yeah, so so that first section in chapter one Actually second second section chapter one,that's the lawyer me gotta reference, right?
It's talking about we're talking about the boulder We're going into that more in depth andthen it ends by me talking about this dream that I I Legitimately had this is not poetic
license.
It's a real dream.
(11:58):
I had I write about in dirt of I'm in the trailer I grew up in and it's sinking
It was on frozen ground, but the ground is given way.
And I'm trying to fill all these garbage bags full of ratty stuffed animals and mildewedsweaters, know, musty old sweaters, this evidence of something lacking, a scarcity mindset
that no longer serves.
You know, these emblematic things that tell me where I started was never enough.
(12:20):
And this voice that said, there's still time for you.
We can still get you out, but you have to be willing to lay that junk down first.
And so it's kind of this idea of exactly what you said of we're going up this mountain,we're pushing this border, pushing this border, pushing this border.
whoever told us we had to push so hard to begin with.
And so it's kind of a, it's the beginning of unraveling that.
Yeah.
Well, I want to unpack one of the things that you referenced right away, because I lovethis statement because I've never heard it before.
(12:47):
And that is that fear is a boring liar.
I had never heard that before.
I've never read it anywhere before.
I don't know if it's original to you, if it is kudos, because I really had never heardthis before.
And so like what for, for somebody that's hearing that, like unpack that, like this is
I feel like a really profound statement.
(13:09):
so like, where did this originate and how does it actually manifest itself in our lives?
Because you, you say that it's something that we just continue to keep listening to.
That's right.
Yeah.
So in addition to, you know, being a full time author now and having a podcast andspeaking places, a lot of my the rest of my remaining time is spent coaching women,
(13:35):
people, know, women who want to write a book.
They want to start a business.
They want to be a speaker themselves, whatever the case is.
And I just started to notice that all of the women I was coaching and myself werearticulating the same kind of fears.
And not only that, we were articulating them at the same point in the journey.
So like, you've just committed in a really big way to make good on the dream.
Like maybe you just signed up for a two day intensive here to come work on the proposal.
(13:58):
Inter existential dread.
And so I was just really like having a day where I was just really like mad at fear.
I was mad at fear for just like how it was like keeping so many women, myself included,stuck.
And I was doing it in such an like unremarkable way.
And so I opened up my phone and I didn't even say a word.
I just started like recording this video and I was like.
It's all been done.
(14:19):
It's all been done better.
It's all been done by somebody the world actually wants to pay attention to.
I can't start until it's perfect.
I can't start until I am perfect.
I can't start until I have the entire blueprint to know every step in the staircase.
What if I start and I can't stay consistent with it?
What if I start and I don't have the bandwidth?
What if I start and the critics come?
What if they say who does she think she is?
Well, I can't start until, you know, like what if what if my voice doesn't matter?
(14:41):
What if I don't really matter?
What if it's already too late?
And I just kind of like
said, fears are really boring, liar fears, not your friend, start anyway, start now, andput it up there.
And it just kind of took off.
And everybody was like, yes.
Like, if we were playing bingo, my hot pink dauber would have run out of ink, right?
Like that kind of idea.
And so that was like an epiphany in and of itself, Molly.
(15:03):
But then an even bigger one came to me.
And this is the kind of like your limbic brain connects two dots in a way you've neverseen it connected before.
Hi, every writer's chasing.
And that is.
What if fear attacks creatives in particular because it itself, it's jealous that ititself is not creative at all.
It is not tethered to muse, it is not tethered to melody, it is not tethered to theoriginal force of all creation, short of being able to throw its voice so that it sounds
(15:29):
like you and to shape shift and change faces just when you think you know who your enemyis.
Fear doesn't really, it's not you know imbued with any inherent gifts at all and I saidfear is not a very creative guy but he is a busy guy.
And like any good productive overachiever, he's learned how to prioritize.
So he's only going to show up when we're doing work that matters.
(15:51):
Hmm.
And I, as you were talking, just, mean, I mean, this is, you know, we can get into deeptheological discussions, which you know, I love right now because I'm in seminary, but
like, I mean, like, that is the essence of what the enemy does.
And I mean, you know, yes, like the word Satan, satan literally means adversary, accuser,like it's what it quite literally translates to.
(16:18):
sometimes, um,
Not that we're really going to get into this really like, but you know, the reality is,like, sometimes people think like, well, there's only like one Satan.
There's not like, there's, there's lots and, and he is his whole, his whole goal is todeceive.
His whole goal is to accuse his whole goal is to be an adversary and, and to call you to,to question and, you know, spiritual warfare, like is a legit.
(16:47):
Yep.
thing and anytime like you are doing something that matters that God is calling you tolike the enemy loves nothing more than to come in there and to plant lies and to accuse
and to deceive.
but there were two things that were really profound that I've heard in the last couple ofweeks that I've actually like I've cataloged and I'm like, that's something I'm just going
(17:09):
to continue to like pull up.
And the first is, that the enemy has power.
He does have power, but he has no authority.
dang.
Okay.
Okay.
And that just alone was like, okay, like he has power, but he doesn't have authority.
(17:32):
So he had like, so he's only going to have as much power as one, like God gives him, ortwo, you give him.
But he doesn't actually have any authority over your life.
And then the second thing is that like, if you look all throughout scripture, and we can
You could go down a bunch of rabbit holes for this, but like he is the deceiver and yet hehimself is deceived because he is convinced still after all the millennia that he is going
(18:06):
to win.
He's deceived that he is going to win, that he still has power and authority that hedoesn't actually have.
And his whole goal is to just like, to deceive you.
because and he's deceiving, he's deceiving you because he's deceived himself.
And, and I, I, I say that alongside this conversation about fear because it's allconnected because when you are fearful, you're less likely to do the thing that feels
(18:34):
scary and you're less likely.
So you're, you're going to end up cowering.
and so I, I'm wondering for you,
What has been one of the more surprising or maybe boring lies that fear has told you thatyou were able to kind of flip that narrative, flip that sort of.
(18:59):
yeah, I'm gonna say for me it's, so for everybody listening, you we start from thatpremise of fear's a really boring liar and then chapter by chapter I go kind of toe to toe
with all the different faces fear wears and then within each chapter there are likesmaller, you know, iterations and variations of it but so people pleasing,
procrastination, perfectionism, overthinking, imposter syndrome, self-sabotage, secondguessing, criticism, distractions, failure and even success and there's more, 14 total.
(19:27):
And chapter 10 is perfectionism is hiding with better PR.
That's another one of those like, dots connected in my brain was like, wait, what?
Like, what if perfectionism is just, know, hiding was basically cauliflower andcauliflower was like, we need a rebrand.
Right.
We need, we need, we need to bring in Don Draper.
(19:49):
Is that his name?
Don Draper and the Mad Men.
And we, we need to really just like spin this narrative.
And
You know, one of my favorite parts is like not since the got milk people has something'shas like an ad campaign trying to make something so plain Jane Vanilla seems so sexy and
so sought after like we're happy to say, I'm just such a perfectionist.
I haven't started yet.
It's just not quite there yet.
(20:09):
My standards are so high.
It's an A plus thing and overachiever thing.
I'm just such a perfectionist.
What we're not willing to say is.
I'm hiding in plain sight because what if it's not as good as I hope it will be?
What if I get criticized?
What if I get embarrassed?
What if I actually have to do something about it once I say it?
And so I think for me, perfectionism, the lie that's been really boring that I havestarted to really get a grip on, but it's shocking.
(20:32):
It shouldn't be shocking because fear is really boring.
Has a very limited repertoire when you really break it down.
And a lot of the fears that, you know, Satan used in the Bible thousands of years ago,he's still using today.
Right.
Let me make you question if you're equipped for this, if you're talented enough for this,if your story disqualifies you from this.
So anyway, for me, was you have to be
(20:53):
Perfect.
You have to be perfect.
You have to walk into every room perfect without a hair out of place.
Not to make anybody feel small, not to hold that over anybody, but because it's the bareminimum standard and anything less than perfect, you shouldn't show up.
So like this morning I did a video where we did an unboxing of the final hardcover coversof Underestimated showed up and I filmed it and like I'm sitting there looking at it I'm
(21:16):
like, like my hair looks fine in the mirror and then it looks terrible from that side andlike...
I have a double chin when I look down at the boxes and I said that weird and gosh, are youknow, are people going to be offended that I talk about like a sharp object in my hand or
whatever.
I'm like, I have a box cutter and I'm like, that's a weapon.
It was just like picking apart every little thing to the point that I was so tempted,Molly, to go, you know what, we'll just try this again tomorrow.
(21:42):
I'll just delete these.
We'll do a whole new take tomorrow.
It'll be better tomorrow.
And I like, you know what, forget that.
I just, I just.
That's the great thing about your 40s.
You're just like, too tired to do any of that again.
And I hit send and it was just like an immediate response of people being excited andcelebrating this book and reminding me why it all mattered and they're looking forward to
(22:04):
it.
And I would have lost all of that opportunity if I had just been worried about it notbeing perfect enough.
And I'm just tired of that.
Well, and that speaks right to your whole theme of the sacred order of the underestimated,which I just love, and how you actually say, for those of us among the sacred order of the
(22:26):
underestimate, we've become experts in our own internal combustion.
Yeah, just, absolutely.
It's such a powerful way to think about the fact that we are experts in our own.
internal combustion.
it's a lot, actually just funny enough today, like, I guess I should say coincidentally,having a conversation with my husband over lunch.
(22:54):
So we try to, you know, as much as we can coordinate our lunches, since we both work fromhome, but he works up in a bar and I work in the house.
And we try to have our, you know, at least see each other during lunch.
And so we were just talking about something and, because I had a
Bible study leader meeting this morning, and we were having this conversation in my Biblestudy leader meeting about why is it, essentially the question was like, why is it easier
(23:20):
for people to, to resist God, to turn from God and to find their contentment in the thingsof the world than the, than find their contentment in God?
And I said, I think, I mean, cause you know, lot of the answers were not wrong.
Like none of them are wrong, but it was like a lot of
Christian ease.
was a lot of like, well, there's, and I, and I said, I think the answer really is a wholelot simpler than we're trying to make it is that it's easier.
(23:47):
It's easier to not, die to self.
It's easier to like internally combust and try to like seek pleasure from the things ofthe world than it is to find contentment in a God you can't see.
Like it's just easier.
And so to that point, like it's easier.
for us to be an expert in our own internal combustion and to play the, I feel like whenyou were talking about that video on fear, you reminded me of Randall Pearson, Sterling K.
(24:18):
Brown's character in This Is Us when he plays the worst case scenario game.
Like when he's just like, when Beth is like, just name all of the things that could gowrong and he does, that's exactly what you were doing is like.
hair stylist tells me that I remind her of that character all the time.
Yeah.
Okay, see, so there's message here, Mary.
(24:42):
And it's but it's because it's easier to play the worst case scenario to to lean into thethings that we are afraid of.
And it is easier to not do it.
And to do it.
Yeah, and not only that Molly, our brains are wired to reward us for not doing it.
Yeah, so like I get into one of the cool things about this book.
(25:02):
Some friends when I was first like really, you know, in the the thick of the first draft Idid like a call with four women who I think are the most avatar target reader for this
book.
Hard story women who've done incredible things but they've hit an up upper ceiling theycan't seem to break through because they blink at the last minute.
and I'm saying like, listen, can I really talk about like Care Bears and like in like avery serious thought leader book, like Care Bears and then very serious science studies in
(25:27):
the same breath.
And they were like, Mary, this is like your era's tour book, like bring all the componentsof Mary together.
And so there's a lot of research and a lot of science in this book, which I find reallyfascinating.
And one of them is in the overthinking chapter.
And it's like, there is a reason.
why when you are about to go do the really hard thing, you balk at the ledge and you go dothe quick win instead, the instant gratification, like write something on your to-do list
(25:50):
just to mark it off because you've already done it kind of thing.
And it's actually science.
So when you are really pushing, trying to think your way out of a problem or think yourway into moving forward on the dream and you're just living in the prefrontal cortex, if
you've ever felt like I'm going to sneeze through my forehead, that's what it feels liketrying to solve this problem is trying to sneeze through your forehead.
then that's getting stuck in the problem solving centers of your brain when really likeinnovation and true creativity really come alive in the limbic part of your brain, which
(26:17):
only turns on when your prefrontal cortex relaxes.
And so if you spend too much time up here, this byproduct called glutamate can actuallybuild up in the prefrontal cortex to toxic levels.
And so your brain will switch to like instant gratification activities.
People just used to think it was like,
an excuse we used to chase the quick win, but your brain actually does it for a much moreserious reason, which is to preserve brain functioning.
(26:44):
So there's a reason that it feels like it's much easier to go do the easy thing than toactually do the hard work of sanctification, for example.
Yeah.
I'm so glad that you said that.
one of the things I was like, I don't really know the brain science behind this.
Because I was like, I really feel like a lot of it is just because of the dopamine thatyou end up getting from the thing that's like the easy, the dopamine you get from
(27:06):
scrolling on Instagram.
I even went, I'm just going to be real.
I was talking with my husband about some pretty little more serious topics.
And I was like, mean, for example, it's much easier for somebody who has a
unfulfilled sexual desires to open up pornography than it is for them to not.
like, that's that like, it's the it's the the wrestling, the internal wrestling of thebrain that just, it takes work, it takes work.
(27:37):
So we'll like from that, like, if we're the experts of our own internal combustion, how dowe then shift away from that and from internal explosions to instead like
internal restoration.
I like that word restoration a lot.
So the next part in that passage about we're experts in our own internal combustion isthis something to the effect of we figured out a way to harness the rotting backyard piles
(28:05):
of rejection.
So other people telling us you can't do it or you won't be the one to, you know, be theone to go do it.
You know, we doubt you.
We overlook you.
These hot rotting piles of rejection in the backyard corners of our mind and turn theminto jet fuel.
You know, there's sort of like this imagery of like we're composting jet fuel to likestore away for, you future use as an accelerant of explosive proportions.
(28:28):
Like just go ahead, underestimate me.
That'll be fun.
Like it's that sort of energy.
And so that's in chapter one.
In chapter 14, which is our last chapter, we actually come full circle to that moment.
There are a lot of full circle moments in this book that were just below in my mindbecause this this is book.
I think it's true of all books.
This book was one more than any of the other.
(28:49):
you know, of the three was revealing itself to me as I was writing it.
So I'm like literally on the floor being like, what is that real?
So in chapter 14, I talk about this sugar factory that actually exploded down in Georgiain like 2007, 2008.
It was a really horrible accident.
A lot of people died.
A lot of people got really badly burned.
(29:09):
And what happened was that it was a sugar refinery and the like powdered sugar dust hadsettled in the silos.
And the CEO said we weren't doing the housekeeping.
And so it accumulated and the sugar dust acted like gunpowder and set off this series ofreactions.
And I quote in that section, a section from dirt and a section from slow growth.
(29:33):
The one on dirt is talking about when I get into law school and I feel like I have a holein my heart the size of a chest wound, every time the cold air hits just right, it sends
these exposed roots screaming back into action, sort of root canal the size of a chestwound.
And I've tried to backfill it with gold stars and A pluses and brand name labels anddegrees and accomplishments and accolades and like, you know, none of it worked.
(29:54):
It turned out in the end, what I needed was an extraction, not a filling in order to fillthat hole in my heart.
And so that's, you know, this side of it.
And over here in slow growth, I talk about sometimes, you know, will I ever matter?
You'd be surprised how many times those words have tumbled from my lips.
Some days I feel like I might just disappear altogether, dematerialize, you know, abillion atomized molecules
(30:16):
floating on the roaring void.
And so you take these two things together and dirt.
I talk about that like God being like a pez dispenser.
Give me the sugary sweet highs of getting everything I ever wanted.
Don't worry about my like how anemic my faith has become.
Just keep the candy coming God.
And so the sugar had become a billion atomized molecules floating on the void.
(30:36):
And if we aren't doing the housekeeping to make sure that junk isn't accumulating, then webecome this internal explosion.
We become this burned out hollow shell of ourselves.
because we were chasing sugar dust, and we were chasing this fuel that is not sustainable.
And what we need is a much more renewable fuel source, something like purpose, if we'regoing to make it all the way up this mountain.
(31:00):
that was a lot of information.
I'm like, in sub-reference one in my first book.
no, I think it's so, it's so important because I think it is, it's recognizing and namingthose things that then no longer like back to that, that whole, the notion of power and
(31:21):
authority is like when you are able to name those things and recognize them, then they nolonger have as much power over you.
Okay, I just have to riff on that for a second if I can.
Okay, this is blowing my mind that you just said this and you said it, you came at it froma totally different angle than any of the other conversations that I've had.
But so, you people have been saying like, are like, what are some of like thepracticalities of this book?
(31:43):
And there are a ton of practicalities throughout the book.
There are a of tips, whatever.
To me, the most important work that this book does is A, it shows you that fear is such aboring liar and it kind of lays them all out.
But B, my whole goal
And we learned this from like teaching photography courses that, humans are hardwired tolearn best through story and through very unexpected visual metaphors.
(32:06):
The greatest teacher who ever walked the planet taught in story and very unexpected visualmetaphors.
And when the people didn't understand the metaphor, he wasn't like, OK, so here's what I'mdoing, blah, blah, blah, blah.
He's like, let me tell you another metaphor.
Right.
And so what I have done is in addition to identifying all the different faces of fear, Ihave gone to give them these incredibly like visceral, unexpected
(32:28):
sometimes quirky imagery to associate with them.
So like one of my favorite ones is in chapter four, which is second guessing is a missinghandbook.
And it goes through this whole big, really fun description of like what this missinghandbook looks like.
It's like, you know, no embellishments on the cover.
It's the stealth wealth of information, whatever.
Really fun description of it.
(32:49):
But then I come, you know, for some of us, we don't feel like we were the eight year old.
Chad sitting at the family dinner one night, Chad passed the mashed potatoes and by theway make sure you understand compound interest, right?
We've been sort of having to figure it out ourselves for all these grown-up years and sothen I take that and I compare it to Edward Scissorhands and I say for those of us who
feel like we are missing this handbook, we never got this handbook, it's like we'rewalking around the world without all the pertinent parts.
(33:14):
Like Edward Scissorhands dropped down right in the middle of some pastel suburban hell
we find that when we break the rules because we did not know the rules, we are somehow theones who died death by a thousand cuts.
And then it kind of goes on and riffs on that for a while.
But so now that person who's like me, who feels like they never got the missing handbook,that's like one visual they can hold on to of like, okay, here's why I feel like no matter
what I choose, I will always choose wrong.
(33:36):
And somebody else would always choose better.
They have information I did not get.
But I can actually put this really like tender, empathetic, wrong.
little bit of a wrong wound.
Like Edward Scissorhands, like you could have the kindest heart imaginable, but one slipup and they'll run you right out of town.
Right?
And so the next time they're in that position, somebody can be like Edward Scissorhandsproblem.
(34:02):
That's what's happening.
Oliver Twist problem, Princess and the P problem, research Riptide problem.
And I was on a show a couple of days ago, Sarah Rice on This Changes Everything said,yeah, it's kind of like in The Wizard of Oz where you have the great and powerful,
terrifying Oz.
and somebody pulls back the curtain and all the power runs out of the room, right?
It just diffuses fear of all that power.
(34:23):
If I can give somebody these very memorable, visceral, very easy, quick to recall, becausethey're just so quirky and unexpected language to go, I know what you're doing, fear.
I know what you're doing.
And it's not going to make fear leave the room, but it is going to just diffuse it of allits power.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Yeah, that is, I could not agree more because it's something that I feel really passionateabout.
(34:44):
It's obviously, it's why I'm a storyteller as well.
And I think that you and I are just so similar in that respect.
it is because, yeah, like people, that is our brains are just hardwired to connect likethat.
But that is when you are able to name those things, when you are able to recognize thosethings, that's when it's like, OK.
(35:07):
me home.
I think for, for me, something, so I'm working with a mentor right now.
and I never really kind of worked in a formal like mentor, men T relationship before I'vealways had kind of people I've like looked up to, but this is somebody I like, I, know,
personally sat down and said, would you be my mentor for this season?
And so one of the things that we're doing together is I said, I need you to help me.
(35:31):
name some of these things that are holding me back from growing in this area.
so like, you know, identifying some of the areas that I know I need to grow in, butbringing somebody else in to recognize like, here is, here is what is holding you back.
And actually was really interesting.
Like we were having lunch and we always meet over food because everything is better forchips and salsa.
(35:54):
it just, you just have better conversations when you have Mexican restaurant diet.
Yes, well, I'll say regular coke, but yes, yes.
for me, my brain just functions at a higher level.
knows, you know, I know I need some arroz caballo.
(36:15):
And anyway, but truly, like we have some of our deepest conversations in Mexicanrestaurants, I'm telling you.
And, and, you know, I was I was kind of wrestling with something and I realized that therewas like something that was holding me back in a relationship that and
Um, with somebody that I'm, you know, kind of is in my sphere.
And she said, I think what you haven't named is that you need, uh, it was, it wassomething that I'd felt hurt by that I had been kind of holding onto this thing, needing
(36:48):
an apology.
Um, and she was like, I think that what you've done is you haven't named that.
And so what that's done is you've then built up a little bit of resentment cloaked inkindness.
Yeah.
Wow.
Oof.
Ouch.
Ouch.
like you've built up resentment cloaked in kindness.
(37:09):
And she said, and so what you have to do is you have to either, let it go, or you have togo to them and tell them.
And she said, or you can even do something that's even more humbling and that's, encouragethem.
And, and I was like,
(37:29):
Okay.
Well, I didn't, you know what I mean?
But, and I realized that I'm kind of trying to be a little careful in how I share this,but it was one of those moments where it, I needed, I knew what I needed to do, but it
actually took someone else recognizing it and naming that in me for then, for me to thenbe able to do the work and be able to heal from it.
(37:51):
And I would, I can say like a month later, two months later, like I'm in a much betterplace than I was with this situation.
And
And so I share that example because I think sometimes we think and forgive me if like,cause maybe I just didn't get to this part in your book.
Yeah, don't really.
(38:12):
But one of the things I think that's important, I'd love for you to, because I know thatyou involve community and people and you speak so much to mentoring and working with
coaching and things like that is sometimes
when we recognize, we're unable to recognize what is holding ourselves back.
And so by then reaching out to someone else to bring them in to our own stories and to bevulnerable enough to say, I need you to walk alongside me.
(38:45):
I need an accountability partner.
I need a mentor.
I need somebody else to maybe even call out those things.
Because I know that this is something that you're really passionate about.
That's why I share that.
that part of this is that sometimes, you know, for the person listening who's like, all ofwhat you guys have said has sounds really great, but I'm too scared to do this by myself.
(39:05):
And sometimes the answer is you don't have to do this by yourself.
That can be a really difficult, fearful, fear laden step.
Yes.
gosh, I got like five things I want to say about that.
I'm gonna try to organize.
No, no, no, it's good.
I'm just trying to like organize it in my brain.
Okay, so here's what comes up for me when you say that.
Number one, this is why I talk about, more so in slow growth in this book, but I talkabout this idea of like your people should be mirrors, not microscopes.
(39:34):
Mirrors will show you who you are and who you're becoming.
Microscopes will hold you in one place for easier scrutiny.
You know, if you think about like a microscope, those little slides and the little...
arms that come and hold it in one place.
And so having somebody who can kind of hold up that mirror and go, you're saying this, buthere's what I'm hearing.
Do we want to name that?
So that's number one is making sure you have those mirror kind of people in your life.
(39:55):
Number two, one of the biggest reasons we need to name this fear is because when it goesunnamed, as you have just described experiencing, it becomes this kind of mythical
colossus in our minds.
And I'm referencing a part in the book.
This is in chapter seven.
Overthinking is an orange safety cone.
And I go through this whole big deep dive on overthinking itself.
(40:16):
And then it's like, we think we're done.
And then it's like, hold on, hold on.
Let's look at this overlapping shore, this Venn diagram where perfectionism andoverthinking join forces in some really unexpected ways.
And one of them I lovingly refer to as the Colossus of Clout.
And it's from the Sandlot.
And it's talking about, know, Smalls didn't know who the great Bambino was.
(40:40):
And so all the boys are reacting and they're like,
the Sultan of Swat, the King of Swing.
And there are these two brothers, Timmy and Tommy, and one of them goes, the Colossus ofClout.
And the other one goes, the Colossus of Clout.
And like just repeats it, but louder.
And it goes on to talk about like in the movie, you're going to love this because of thefull reference to mythology.
(41:03):
There was this beast living next door.
They only caught glimpses of through the fence, who they in their minds let them run wildand became a much bigger threat than it was.
turned out to be a really sweet dog named Hercules, a mythical colossus, but only in theirminds.
And so that's kind of that idea of like when we name it, we're going back to the Wizard ofOz, we're taking all the power out of the room.
(41:25):
Two more things that I'll say on that.
The next is just sort of, we're talking about the person listening who this sounds reallyhard and it sounds really scary to reach out to somebody.
And rather than me saying right now in this moment like,
Just do it.
It's so easy or it'll be so worth it which all of that is like can be true I want to meetyou in a place of deep empathy because in chapter 10 which we reference referenced earlier
(41:51):
Perfectionism is hiding with better PR I'd actually talk about how this combination ofcharacteristics in my story from being you know a child of the 80s where we were all
basically feral cats left to fend for ourselves a Proud Appalachian where the last thingin the world we ever want to have to do is be in a position to ask somebody else for help
and being an Enneagram four with a very strong wing three who does not like to showweakness.
(42:15):
It has turned me into somebody who walks around in the world in some very hyper vigilant,self-sufficient to the point of self-sabotaging ways.
And I have this string of sentences that I almost cut because they're very vulnerable.
But I ultimately left them in and I'm hearing from people already that they're superresonating with it.
It's like, I don't want you feeling sorry for me.
I don't want you to ever your eyes in some sort of sympathy shame on my behalf.
(42:38):
while we're at it unless specifically asked, I don't want your advice, your opinions, yourgood practices.
They run in my ears, run down my throat and taste like condescension.
I want you worrying about me.
Then I'll just have to worry about you worrying about me.
And it goes on in that chapter to basically say, it turns out priding yourself on notneeding people is a really great way not to have any.
(43:00):
So there's probably another thing that I was thinking of, but that was a lot of talkingand I'm sure that a few things have come up for you.
So we'll just kind of leave it at those three where it is like cherish your mirror peoplewhen you find them, let them hold up a mirror and show you who you are and what you're
becoming.
Make sure that you are not letting this fear that goes unnamed become a mythical colossusand don't pride yourself so much on not needing somebody that you end up not having
(43:27):
people.
Yeah, no, think that that is, yeah, I mean, I think that that's one of those lessons thatis incredibly difficult for us, especially in our individualistic society and culture that
we have a hard time with.
(43:48):
we just end up creating this world in which we are
on our own lonely island and we look around and suddenly it's like, well, wait, how did Iget here?
But then when you actually zoom out and you look and it's like, we put ourselves there.
(44:13):
And that's a hard pill to swallow at times, but you don't have to stay stuck there.
Yeah.
and so, but in order to get off of that lonely Island, so I guess I'm, feel like I have tosay this for the person listening that is feels like they're on the lonely Island.
And I don't say that you put yourself there in a condom in a condemning way.
(44:34):
That's not my heart at all, but I think it is important to sometimes recognize, it can bereally easy.
And I also, I'm sensitive to like, there's all sorts of scenarios that can happen in ourlives, but a lot of times.
it starts with us and it starts with with looking at how do we be vulnerable enough tomake amends where amends need to be made to reach out and you know, apologize.
(45:02):
I mean, I remember, like, I talk about this some in my book is when I had reached my rockbottom, and I had, I was so broken, I was so isolated, I was so
ashamed of the mistakes that I'd made.
(45:22):
yet I continued in this cycle of making more mistakes, but in the process, I have, I hadalienated a lot of people around me and it, had to come to a point where I had to realize
that like, yes, some stark circumstances in my life were, were really difficult.
And I had been dealt a really difficult, deck of cards, but also at the same time, like alot of it was my fault and.
(45:50):
I, I had to come to a point where I couldn't blame others at any point.
And I had to just realize that yes, like I was in a lot of ways, like playing the handthat I was dealt, but I could have handled it a little bit differently or better.
And so I in, in that process of, getting myself off of it, cause I was the person on thelonely Island.
(46:11):
So that's why I feel like I can say this because I'm speaking from experience and that Iwas the person on the lonely Island and number one.
First, I had to surrender to God and I had to ask God, one, for forgiveness.
And he then had to help build me a boat to get off the island.
And then, I'm really going with the analogy here.
Then, at that point, I had to then recognize, like, I was so isolated.
(46:36):
I had burned a lot of the relationships in my life.
And what I had to do was I had to reach out.
I had to take that very scary step and reach out to some of the people, like,
one of the people that immediately comes to mind is like my roommate from college, JaneBarry, who I talk about her in the book.
She's just one of my oldest and dearest friends from college.
And I had really hurt her in that time.
(46:58):
And it wasn't intentional.
I wasn't trying to hurt her, but in my own pain and in my own suffering, I had hurt myfriend.
And so I had lost that relationship and I had to humble myself enough.
to reach out to her and say, miss you.
And I would really like to get together.
(47:20):
And so guess what?
We met over chips and salsa at Plaza Azteca.
I know.
And so we went to a Mexican restaurant and I sat down and I cried and I said, thank youfor meeting me.
And I said, I just know I need to make amends.
I need to apologize.
And I said, I'm not making excuses, but I need you to know like what was going on in mylife.
(47:44):
and let her in.
And so I just, for the next couple hours, I was vulnerable.
I said all of the things, Mary.
And then I ultimately ended with, like, will you forgive me?
And she, of course, said yes.
And we were able to begin the process of restoring that relationship.
But I had to do that a few times.
And so sometimes, like, that's really difficult to do.
(48:08):
And so I think that that's just my encouragement to somebody who's like,
some to and again, I don't know all the different scenarios and nuances of our lives, butjust sometimes we have to humble ourselves when and realize what are the areas that maybe
we had some missteps and need to take that next step to then begin to heal and invitepeople back into our lives so that we can have the mirror friends, we can have the mirror
(48:33):
mentors and rather than the microscope people.
That's right.
You know what that made me think of is that's also so good.
it made me think of it's like a kind of a there's laterally that's a laterally connectedpoint.
But I think it's actually it kind of gets it.
It's like the same thing you're saying, but in a different way is in Chapter eight,procrastination is a double edged sword.
(48:58):
It's talking about there's a section that's talking about why procrastinators never seemto learn from their mistakes.
We repeat the lesson until it is learned, only we never seem to learn it.
And it's talking about the difference between what's called a downward counterfactual andan upward counterfactual.
And so a downward counterfactual is like an exercise in at least.
Well, at least I got turned in on time, even if it was like an all-nighter.
(49:20):
At least I still got to get great, even though I bet it could have been better if I gavemyself more time.
You know, at least whatever.
At least I didn't get an incomplete.
I'm just, they're all, they're all turning into paper analogies, which is one of the onesI talk about in the book.
But anyway, so downward counterfactual is an exercise in at least I call it like a it'slike a silver linings playbook, like we're constantly looking for how it all still managed
(49:42):
to turn out.
And upward counterfactual on the other hand goes, wow, think about how much less stress Iwould have been if I'd given myself more time.
Think about, you know, like it gives the example of Bonnie on the TV show, Mom, she's likethe they live in the apartment building for free because she's the super but she never
does any of the work and then they're going to like fill out the, you know, reports.
(50:03):
the customer survey reports or whatever, and she suddenly is trying to get it all done andshe's like, huh, complaining about this took me like six months, doing it took like six
minutes, I feel like there's a lesson there.
Only you get the distinct impression she hasn't learned a thing.
Upward counterfactual is willing to say this is what I did, I'm going to acknowledge thepain that it brought me, and I'm not going to like try to gloss over it so that I can
(50:26):
actually learn from it.
And that kind of like builds on some other stuff we talk about in the failure chapter.
Failure is a bankrupt identity.
Chapter 11, Failure is a bankrupt identity.
I was quite proud of that naming right there.
Chapter 11, bankruptcy.
It's not about bankruptcy at all.
But it is about this idea of like, we will sometimes try so hard to avoid the pain ofacknowledging a failure because we don't want it to become our, we are the failure, our
(50:49):
identity, that we'll pretend like nothing happened at all.
And we just kind of gloss over it we never learn from it.
So it's kind of like, it's what you're saying.
It's like we have to kind of deal with
This was actually really painful and it was my fault in some ways, you know, like let'sdeal with the parts that were my fault and under my control.
Yeah.
Yeah.
man.
That's so powerful.
Man, Mary, I have just like so many other questions I want to ask you.
(51:10):
and, but I'm, guess to close, con to conclude, cause this episode could be four hourslong, but I'm not Joe Rogan.
I'll be honest.
don't know how that guy does it.
Like three, four hour long podcast.
I don't know.
And my husband really into a Jaco.
Okay.
Jaco Willink and Jaco's podcast.
(51:32):
He'll listen to Jaco and Jaco's episodes are like three to four hours long.
I'm like, how does this guy do it?
I'm like, don't.
Anyway, all that to say is kind of in closing is, obviously, we've been talking about alot of the themes of underestimated.
And there's a lot in fear and our kind of propensity to play small.
(51:57):
But I would love for you to just kind of share ultimately your heart for this book andlike who you are really hoping is the person that picks it up and what your prayer is for
that person.
Yeah.
The by far and away most target bullseye, most bullseye target reader for this book arethe people who, you know, the dedication in the book, the very first page talks about like
(52:30):
the Elizabeth Kubler Ross quote, beautiful people don't just happen.
And, you know, I go on to say like hard story people are my kind of people.
Pain, like progressively finer grits of paper has rounded off the hard edges, making ussoft places to land for others.
But at the same time, that muddy story makes us doubt.
that someone like us could ever do the thing, right?
That I've been saying this book is for the one who feels like they're being called up togreatness, they're being called up to more, but at the very same time, you simultaneously
(52:54):
doubt that someone like you could ever get there.
And so here's what I'm gonna tell you, Molly.
I feel like I was specifically put on this earth to serve the hard story people, to servethe family tree changers, the generation changers, the people where, you know, our friend
Hannah Bruncher talks about a line.
a Sharpie line through the calendar dividing the calendar into a before and after.
(53:16):
Well, these are the people who are going to divide their family tree into a before and anafter.
And in so many ways, these people have already come so far.
Maybe they were the first in their family to go to college.
They maybe are the first to own a home.
Maybe they're parenting really differently, finance, you know, doing their finances reallydifferently, whatever the case is.
But they have hit an upper limit.
And that upper limit is like, I just keep starting over.
(53:37):
Like I'm my own worst enemy.
Like, why do I keep dropping the boulder at the very last minute?
Because I feel like if that group of people could be set free from this icy grip of fear,they're, you know, it's like I've been joking, like it's like Mean Girls, like the limit
does not exist for what these people could go do, the change that they could have in theworld.
And so from the very bottom of my heart, like hand raised to God, I believe this book isgoing to change family trees.
(54:04):
I believe it's going to set people free of this return to chaos.
and instability that they just don't know why they can't shake because it's familiar, youknow, from their childhood.
And there's a lot there and it's, there's a, we go, we go deep.
and it's, it's a transformational arc.
Like read this bad boy from start to finish.
Don't skip around.
each one builds on the one that came before, but I, I truly, truly believe we're going tosee a generation of women in particular, but men as well, but people who are changing
(54:34):
their family trees, just like that, those
chains we talked about tripping them up, those limiting beliefs tied up around theirankles are going to break loose and we're just going to see these people sprint, you know,
full forward on the purpose and the good work that was prepared for them in advance.
And I pray that when I get to heaven, I'm going to get just a glimpse, like a moviemontage of just like all the things that happened because fear stopped having the loudest
(54:59):
voice in the room.
We pulled back the curtain and all the power ran out of the room that fear had.
So that's what I'll say about that.
that's so good, Mary.
You know, as you were talking and kind of just throughout this conversation, I don't knowthis is something you do, but I feel like your book needs to have a theme song.
And I don't know if you've heard this song, we just started singing it at church and I hadnot heard it until the last couple months.
(55:24):
And so it's a new newer worship song, but it's called Made for More by Bethel.
And the chorus is
is, um, I wasn't made to be tinned in a grave.
I was called by name, born and raised back to life again.
I was made for more.
(55:47):
Um, and, uh, and then, uh, Oh gosh.
Um, but it's, it goes, it goes on just about how, um, we weren't, we weren't called to beagain, tending a grave.
weren't called to be.
Dead in our shame.
We were not called for anything like God called it He made us for more and I just feellike that song the the verses and the verse When you get off of that like go listen to
(56:16):
that song Because I just feel like it is the heartbeat of this message It's just that youwere like you were God did not call you to play small He did not call you to to shrink
back.
He made you for more than you
Love that.
my heart and my prayer for you.
(56:37):
I love you so much.
Thank you so much.
my gosh.
I have two quick things for your people if that's okay.
Two super quick.
One of them is I introduce these characters actually first in slow growth as you probablyremember Molly, but they carry over into underestimated and they are the five achiever
types.
And this time we talk about them from like the perspective of like how and why they playsmall and where they get stuck and where they get tripped up along the way.
(57:02):
And so we have the performer who's always on her toes.
wanting to show both herself and other people how far she's come.
So I am the performer.
The tightrope walker could care less who's clapping, but they need higher and higherdeath-defying feats to feel the same amount of good.
The masquerader hides in plain sight and shoves other people into the spotlight.
The contortionist is our classic people pleaser.
They contort because it is easier than to be criticized.
(57:24):
And the illusionist in the distance believes that all the conditions to begin and theythemselves must be perfect before they can even start.
And so if you go to achieverquiz.com, achieverquiz.com or marymaranz.com slash quiz,M-A-R-A-N-T-Z is my last name, then the quiz itself takes like 10 minutes, two minutes if
you do it really fast, you know, just go on gut instinct, it's like 10 questions.
(57:47):
And we go light and easy on the questions and then in a true Mary form, we go deep andhard in the results.
That felt like a Tina Turner quote or something.
We're gonna take it nice and easy and then we're gonna go hard.
Now, we go deep in the results of like why each type gets tripped up playing small and howyou actually break out of that and move forward.
So that's AchieverQuiz.com.
And then if you go to NameTheFear.com, that's where we have all the information up for thebook.
(58:10):
And we actually have for your listeners that they can go right now if they go toNameTheFear.com.
We have the entire first chapter up there for free.
They can download it and start reading it for free today.
Check it out.
Get a feel for my writing.
And while you're there, because as Molly will tell you, preorders are huge, huge, forgetting good books out in the world.
Yes.
all the celebrity connections and the millions of followers, pre-orders are where it's at.
(58:34):
We have the first three chapters are available for you if you pre-order and the audiobook.
So it's kind of like getting two books for the price of one.
And Mary's amazing voice reads it and so stupid.
to you for hours.
So that's at NameTheFear.com, can check that out.
Pre-orders are huge, they would mean the world.
And then at MaryMarians on Instagram, come tell me if you listen to the episode, what yourachiever type is, all the things.
(58:58):
You can watch me unbox the book, see my double chin.
No, no, Mary.
Well, I will have all of that in the show notes for everyone.
So please, yes, go get this book.
And Mary, I just, like I said, before we started recording, I just adore you.
I'm so grateful for you.
I can't believe we've known each other as long as we have.
(59:20):
And I'm just truly, it's a joy and a gift to watch you face the fear and push through thefear and to step out into the giftings that God's given you.
I love you.
Thank you.
it is a fantastic day because I have just my dear dear friend Mary Morance on the show fornot the first, not the second, maybe not even the third, but we think it might be the
third.
I don't know.
We've lost count at this point.
Mary Morance is here for the third, fourth, fifth, who knows what time.
Mary, I'm so, so glad that you're here.
(00:22):
Welcome.
my gosh, Molly, I love you with my whole puffy heart.
Thank you so much for having me back, back, back, maybe even back again.
We talked about velvet jackets last time, so I'm going to expect that.
Yes.
your last time.
And I'm telling you, you were one of the first to receive the cult, the very, very soughtafter velvet jacket with my face on it.
(00:51):
Listen, I want it big.
I want it all across my back with wings.
Oh my gosh.
Well, I was thinking about this as I was kind of just doing prep for this episode and allof that.
And I was trying to think like, and maybe we've talked about this before, but I was likethinking back on when we first met and, then I was thinking about, was like, well, I know
(01:14):
we knew each other for a little while before we met in person, but I mean, it has been 10years since we both spoke at that conference in Charleston.
That was in 2015.
Wow.
so like we've known each other well over a decade now, which is just, how did that happen?
Like it doesn't feel like it both is like feels like I've known you a long time.
(01:38):
And then also it doesn't feel like I've known you over a decade.
and so just, watching you, over the years, as you have, you know, shifted from photographyto writing and speaking to, this is now you're, you're about to release your third book.
It's just incredible and it's just it's such an a gift to be able to witness and so I justwanted to say that right off the bat as As I'm just so dang proud of you and just What a
(02:09):
gift that you are putting out into the the world You are living out first Peter 410 ofusing the gifts that God's given you To serve others and you do that through your podcast
and through your writing and I always I always tell you this too
and this book is no different, is you are a painter with words.
You just, really are, and this book is that.
(02:32):
And so with all of that, like me just starting off just by telling you how wonderful youare, I know, you're welcome.
You just have me just to wake you up.
Good morning, Mary.
You are amazing.
Well, so we need you to have us give give us the Mary 301 because the last time you wereon you gave the Mary 201 and that was kind of the update.
(02:56):
So here we are.
We're becoming well like we're getting PhDs and Mary Marantz over here.
So give us the Mary 301.
So like since you released your second book slow growth and now you've got underestimatedcoming like what what's been happening in your life?
Well, I feel like the short answer is underestimated and that's basically all I've donefor the last like year and a half like no joke I wrote for 12 hours a day for 12 months to
(03:24):
get this book out into the world It is the heaviest lift I've done on any of the threebooks by far and it's also the one I'm the most proud of which is a big statement because
dirt is my first book and that's you know my story of growing up in a single-ed trailerbefore going on to yell for law school and Going, you know the sort of journey back home
to make peace with your past and what is a story like that?
that we're sort of familiar with the humble beginnings to the Ivy League.
(03:47):
What does that look like through the lens of grace?
then Slow Growth Equals Strong Roots is, you know, a book about once you'd make peace withyour past, how do you give up achieving for your worth?
And so they have all sort of built on one another, leading us to underestimated, which isnow that you've made peace with your past and now that you're no longer achieving for your
worth, you're, you know, creating and building and working from worth rather than forworth.
(04:08):
What does it look like for us to quit playing small on the good work that's been preparedfor us in advance?
and so, you know, I feel like they we always talk about you write the book that you needand I feel like I've spent 45 years preparing to to write about being underestimated and
we can get into all of it, but I thought it was gonna be a book about when the worldunderestimates us and it for sure is that's in there, but it ended up being about 80 %
(04:33):
when we do it to ourselves.
So that was fun for to wrestle through for 12 hours a day.
Why do we do this to ourselves?
Well, I feel like that actually kind of leads me to I've kind of a few things from thebook that I haven't had a chance to finish it yet, but I did start it because I just got a
copy
I know.
You are the champ.
It was like, hi, can you do this in three days?
(04:54):
Great.
Yeah, so I've been speed reading, but so I have started it.
But and I tell you, like I said, this is just this is so you in so many ways.
And so I actually feel like one of the points I wanted to hit is a great starting point.
No pun intended.
And that's sort of this the starting line.
And this is from your chapter one.
And you talk about how starting over is a rolling boulder.
(05:15):
And
I want to read an excerpt.
says, day by day, some of us are out here unraveling a lifetime of limiting beliefs,turning lead weights tied up around our ankles.
Forgive us if we get tripped up.
We're doing the work.
It's just that our work involves healing decades old traumas, moving away from wild eyedscarcity to finally believing once and for all, we've stumbled our way into safety.
(05:40):
It's sorting through the generations deep tangle of beliefs about what we are capable ofand what happens to a person when they finally get.
And it's this like, my gosh, you just it's this so tend you write so tenderly about howlong it takes some of us to even begin to start something.
(06:00):
And so I want you to kind of speak to that speak to the person listening who feels behindor late or that they are like too messy to reach their potential.
And the reason
I felt led to talk about this to start off is because I turned 40 this year and I feellike I keep talking about this on the podcast because it's like this looming thing that is
(06:28):
ahead.
But I'm actually, I say that in a lot of ways, like I'm not afraid to turn 40.
I'm actually very excited to turn 40.
I feel like the forties, I feel like I'm ready for my forties.
Like I'm ready to live my best life in my 40.
But there are a lot of things that I
in lot of ways want to do.
(06:50):
And I will admit that I sometimes wrestle with a, is it too late?
Like, am I too late?
And so that's why I kind of wanted to start at that point.
So would you kind of just talk about that, about why this is such a big part of this book?
Yeah, let me just start with the 40s because let me tell you something when I was 20 25and I heard women in their 40s saying listen your 40s are amazing you like run out of
(07:21):
filters you run out of like Twisting yourself.
Yeah, basically basically I Was like oh the lies these women have to tell themselves, youknow, I am here to tell you I'm gonna be 45 in May.
I'm here to tell you
I can speak from the midway of the mountain on the 40s and it is everything they said andmore.
Like there will be hard things for sure.
(07:43):
know, physical like body things like hormones are a very real thing, whatever.
This is not what I thought we were going to talk about, but that's okay.
But like the unraveling and there's a lot in that.
I think you see a lot of that in underestimated.
There's a part where I talk about we were not meant to be this.
silent screaming string of pretty maids all in a row.
(08:06):
This cut and paste paint by numbers repeating, you know, what the world tells us to be.
It's much more poetic in the book, but that's the general idea.
And I think there is this unraveling, un- you know, unstitching coming apart at the seamswhere the light can get in between this before and this after.
All of that happens in your 40s and I'm here for it.
(08:26):
And I'm so excited to meet Molly in her 40s.
Thank you!
Thank you!
Real fun!
So all of that to say, I think that the society would love to tell us that if we haven'tdone it by the time we turn 40, we're not going to do it.
And it's just not true.
For most of us, this is of course not guaranteed, but for most of us, we're hoping we'regoing to be well into our 70s, our 80s, our 90s and beyond.
(08:52):
And that's a lot of time to say, life's pretty much done for me when I hit 40.
So we are just getting started.
I just wanted to speak to that.
Yeah.
Yes, about this idea of feeling, I like what you said about if you feel too messy to dowhat you were put here to do, you feel like you're behind, you feel like it's too late.
(09:13):
It's already too late is one of fear's most boring and favorite lies to use on us.
And we'll talk about that, I'm sure, if you're being a boring, really boring liar.
But I even want to kind of like just sit in that edginess for a second.
And I want to speak to the person listening.
I bet it's a bunch of people listening.
where it's all of that that we've been talking about.
And it's also this other thing where you feel like whatever you have tried to do in life,it's as if you're pushing up against resistance.
(09:38):
You're pushing up against a brick wall.
You you're trying to climb the mountain.
There's a running metaphor through the whole book of pushing the boulder up the mountainonly to get to your almost to your breakthrough moment.
You blink, you lose your grip, you lose your way and the boulder rolls all the way backdown the mountain.
Meanwhile, other people, they implement, they execute, they achieve.
They just keep right on trucking Elwood style.
(09:59):
What?
Like it's hard?
And you can't understand why you keep starting over or why every step feels like it's likewaist deep through molasses.
If you are listening to this and you are what I like to lovingly call a hard story person,whether that was when you were little or it's been a more recent hard story, and it just
feels like no matter what you do, no matter your best efforts, it's like the more you tryto push up the mountain, there's like a 10 ton force pushing you back down.
(10:26):
Yeah.
This book is for you.
And so that whole first chapter is about like, let's just lay it all out there.
Wiley Coyote about to get his come up in style.
Like, why do we teeter on the brink of everything and then make eye contact with everyonewatching at home and the bottom falls out?
This is why it's so hard and especially so hard for some of us who, you know, we're doingthe work.
(10:50):
It's just that our work involves untangling a lifetime of limiting beliefs before we canreally make it up that hill.
Yeah, and I personally like, so my husband is a big Greek mythology geek.
And so I love any reference to Sisyphus and his, know, and I think it's a beautifulanalogy to relate to or to connect to because it is that, you know, famous story that so
(11:17):
many of us are familiar with of, you know, he was, Sisyphus was punished by Zeus andhis...
His punishment was he was going to just have to roll a boulder up a hill for the entiretyof eternity and how so many of us have done that to ourselves.
Well, we are punished by our own making.
(11:37):
Yeah, so so that first section in chapter one Actually second second section chapter one,that's the lawyer me gotta reference, right?
It's talking about we're talking about the boulder We're going into that more in depth andthen it ends by me talking about this dream that I I Legitimately had this is not poetic
license.
It's a real dream.
(11:58):
I had I write about in dirt of I'm in the trailer I grew up in and it's sinking
It was on frozen ground, but the ground is given way.
And I'm trying to fill all these garbage bags full of ratty stuffed animals and mildewedsweaters, know, musty old sweaters, this evidence of something lacking, a scarcity mindset
that no longer serves.
You know, these emblematic things that tell me where I started was never enough.
(12:20):
And this voice that said, there's still time for you.
We can still get you out, but you have to be willing to lay that junk down first.
And so it's kind of this idea of exactly what you said of we're going up this mountain,we're pushing this border, pushing this border, pushing this border.
whoever told us we had to push so hard to begin with.
And so it's kind of a, it's the beginning of unraveling that.
Yeah.
Well, I want to unpack one of the things that you referenced right away, because I lovethis statement because I've never heard it before.
(12:47):
And that is that fear is a boring liar.
I had never heard that before.
I've never read it anywhere before.
I don't know if it's original to you, if it is kudos, because I really had never heardthis before.
And so like what for, for somebody that's hearing that, like unpack that, like this is
I feel like a really profound statement.
(13:09):
so like, where did this originate and how does it actually manifest itself in our lives?
Because you, you say that it's something that we just continue to keep listening to.
That's right.
Yeah.
So in addition to, you know, being a full time author now and having a podcast andspeaking places, a lot of my the rest of my remaining time is spent coaching women,
(13:35):
people, know, women who want to write a book.
They want to start a business.
They want to be a speaker themselves, whatever the case is.
And I just started to notice that all of the women I was coaching and myself werearticulating the same kind of fears.
And not only that, we were articulating them at the same point in the journey.
So like, you've just committed in a really big way to make good on the dream.
Like maybe you just signed up for a two day intensive here to come work on the proposal.
(13:58):
Inter existential dread.
And so I was just really like having a day where I was just really like mad at fear.
I was mad at fear for just like how it was like keeping so many women, myself included,stuck.
And I was doing it in such an like unremarkable way.
And so I opened up my phone and I didn't even say a word.
I just started like recording this video and I was like.
It's all been done.
(14:19):
It's all been done better.
It's all been done by somebody the world actually wants to pay attention to.
I can't start until it's perfect.
I can't start until I am perfect.
I can't start until I have the entire blueprint to know every step in the staircase.
What if I start and I can't stay consistent with it?
What if I start and I don't have the bandwidth?
What if I start and the critics come?
What if they say who does she think she is?
Well, I can't start until, you know, like what if what if my voice doesn't matter?
(14:41):
What if I don't really matter?
What if it's already too late?
And I just kind of like
said, fears are really boring, liar fears, not your friend, start anyway, start now, andput it up there.
And it just kind of took off.
And everybody was like, yes.
Like, if we were playing bingo, my hot pink dauber would have run out of ink, right?
Like that kind of idea.
And so that was like an epiphany in and of itself, Molly.
(15:03):
But then an even bigger one came to me.
And this is the kind of like your limbic brain connects two dots in a way you've neverseen it connected before.
Hi, every writer's chasing.
And that is.
What if fear attacks creatives in particular because it itself, it's jealous that ititself is not creative at all.
It is not tethered to muse, it is not tethered to melody, it is not tethered to theoriginal force of all creation, short of being able to throw its voice so that it sounds
(15:29):
like you and to shape shift and change faces just when you think you know who your enemyis.
Fear doesn't really, it's not you know imbued with any inherent gifts at all and I saidfear is not a very creative guy but he is a busy guy.
And like any good productive overachiever, he's learned how to prioritize.
So he's only going to show up when we're doing work that matters.
(15:51):
Hmm.
And I, as you were talking, just, mean, I mean, this is, you know, we can get into deeptheological discussions, which you know, I love right now because I'm in seminary, but
like, I mean, like, that is the essence of what the enemy does.
And I mean, you know, yes, like the word Satan, satan literally means adversary, accuser,like it's what it quite literally translates to.
(16:18):
sometimes, um,
Not that we're really going to get into this really like, but you know, the reality is,like, sometimes people think like, well, there's only like one Satan.
There's not like, there's, there's lots and, and he is his whole, his whole goal is todeceive.
His whole goal is to accuse his whole goal is to be an adversary and, and to call you to,to question and, you know, spiritual warfare, like is a legit.
(16:47):
Yep.
thing and anytime like you are doing something that matters that God is calling you tolike the enemy loves nothing more than to come in there and to plant lies and to accuse
and to deceive.
but there were two things that were really profound that I've heard in the last couple ofweeks that I've actually like I've cataloged and I'm like, that's something I'm just going
(17:09):
to continue to like pull up.
And the first is, that the enemy has power.
He does have power, but he has no authority.
dang.
Okay.
Okay.
And that just alone was like, okay, like he has power, but he doesn't have authority.
(17:32):
So he had like, so he's only going to have as much power as one, like God gives him, ortwo, you give him.
But he doesn't actually have any authority over your life.
And then the second thing is that like, if you look all throughout scripture, and we can
You could go down a bunch of rabbit holes for this, but like he is the deceiver and yet hehimself is deceived because he is convinced still after all the millennia that he is going
(18:06):
to win.
He's deceived that he is going to win, that he still has power and authority that hedoesn't actually have.
And his whole goal is to just like, to deceive you.
because and he's deceiving, he's deceiving you because he's deceived himself.
And, and I, I, I say that alongside this conversation about fear because it's allconnected because when you are fearful, you're less likely to do the thing that feels
(18:34):
scary and you're less likely.
So you're, you're going to end up cowering.
and so I, I'm wondering for you,
What has been one of the more surprising or maybe boring lies that fear has told you thatyou were able to kind of flip that narrative, flip that sort of.
(18:59):
yeah, I'm gonna say for me it's, so for everybody listening, you we start from thatpremise of fear's a really boring liar and then chapter by chapter I go kind of toe to toe
with all the different faces fear wears and then within each chapter there are likesmaller, you know, iterations and variations of it but so people pleasing,
procrastination, perfectionism, overthinking, imposter syndrome, self-sabotage, secondguessing, criticism, distractions, failure and even success and there's more, 14 total.
(19:27):
And chapter 10 is perfectionism is hiding with better PR.
That's another one of those like, dots connected in my brain was like, wait, what?
Like, what if perfectionism is just, know, hiding was basically cauliflower andcauliflower was like, we need a rebrand.
Right.
We need, we need, we need to bring in Don Draper.
(19:49):
Is that his name?
Don Draper and the Mad Men.
And we, we need to really just like spin this narrative.
And
You know, one of my favorite parts is like not since the got milk people has something'shas like an ad campaign trying to make something so plain Jane Vanilla seems so sexy and
so sought after like we're happy to say, I'm just such a perfectionist.
I haven't started yet.
It's just not quite there yet.
(20:09):
My standards are so high.
It's an A plus thing and overachiever thing.
I'm just such a perfectionist.
What we're not willing to say is.
I'm hiding in plain sight because what if it's not as good as I hope it will be?
What if I get criticized?
What if I get embarrassed?
What if I actually have to do something about it once I say it?
And so I think for me, perfectionism, the lie that's been really boring that I havestarted to really get a grip on, but it's shocking.
(20:32):
It shouldn't be shocking because fear is really boring.
Has a very limited repertoire when you really break it down.
And a lot of the fears that, you know, Satan used in the Bible thousands of years ago,he's still using today.
Right.
Let me make you question if you're equipped for this, if you're talented enough for this,if your story disqualifies you from this.
So anyway, for me, was you have to be
(20:53):
Perfect.
You have to be perfect.
You have to walk into every room perfect without a hair out of place.
Not to make anybody feel small, not to hold that over anybody, but because it's the bareminimum standard and anything less than perfect, you shouldn't show up.
So like this morning I did a video where we did an unboxing of the final hardcover coversof Underestimated showed up and I filmed it and like I'm sitting there looking at it I'm
(21:16):
like, like my hair looks fine in the mirror and then it looks terrible from that side andlike...
I have a double chin when I look down at the boxes and I said that weird and gosh, are youknow, are people going to be offended that I talk about like a sharp object in my hand or
whatever.
I'm like, I have a box cutter and I'm like, that's a weapon.
It was just like picking apart every little thing to the point that I was so tempted,Molly, to go, you know what, we'll just try this again tomorrow.
(21:42):
I'll just delete these.
We'll do a whole new take tomorrow.
It'll be better tomorrow.
And I like, you know what, forget that.
I just, I just.
That's the great thing about your 40s.
You're just like, too tired to do any of that again.
And I hit send and it was just like an immediate response of people being excited andcelebrating this book and reminding me why it all mattered and they're looking forward to
(22:04):
it.
And I would have lost all of that opportunity if I had just been worried about it notbeing perfect enough.
And I'm just tired of that.
Well, and that speaks right to your whole theme of the sacred order of the underestimated,which I just love, and how you actually say, for those of us among the sacred order of the
(22:26):
underestimate, we've become experts in our own internal combustion.
Yeah, just, absolutely.
It's such a powerful way to think about the fact that we are experts in our own.
internal combustion.
it's a lot, actually just funny enough today, like, I guess I should say coincidentally,having a conversation with my husband over lunch.
(22:54):
So we try to, you know, as much as we can coordinate our lunches, since we both work fromhome, but he works up in a bar and I work in the house.
And we try to have our, you know, at least see each other during lunch.
And so we were just talking about something and, because I had a
Bible study leader meeting this morning, and we were having this conversation in my Biblestudy leader meeting about why is it, essentially the question was like, why is it easier
(23:20):
for people to, to resist God, to turn from God and to find their contentment in the thingsof the world than the, than find their contentment in God?
And I said, I think, I mean, cause you know, lot of the answers were not wrong.
Like none of them are wrong, but it was like a lot of
Christian ease.
was a lot of like, well, there's, and I, and I said, I think the answer really is a wholelot simpler than we're trying to make it is that it's easier.
(23:47):
It's easier to not, die to self.
It's easier to like internally combust and try to like seek pleasure from the things ofthe world than it is to find contentment in a God you can't see.
Like it's just easier.
And so to that point, like it's easier.
for us to be an expert in our own internal combustion and to play the, I feel like whenyou were talking about that video on fear, you reminded me of Randall Pearson, Sterling K.
(24:18):
Brown's character in This Is Us when he plays the worst case scenario game.
Like when he's just like, when Beth is like, just name all of the things that could gowrong and he does, that's exactly what you were doing is like.
hair stylist tells me that I remind her of that character all the time.
Yeah.
Okay, see, so there's message here, Mary.
(24:42):
And it's but it's because it's easier to play the worst case scenario to to lean into thethings that we are afraid of.
And it is easier to not do it.
And to do it.
Yeah, and not only that Molly, our brains are wired to reward us for not doing it.
Yeah, so like I get into one of the cool things about this book.
(25:02):
Some friends when I was first like really, you know, in the the thick of the first draft Idid like a call with four women who I think are the most avatar target reader for this
book.
Hard story women who've done incredible things but they've hit an up upper ceiling theycan't seem to break through because they blink at the last minute.
and I'm saying like, listen, can I really talk about like Care Bears and like in like avery serious thought leader book, like Care Bears and then very serious science studies in
(25:27):
the same breath.
And they were like, Mary, this is like your era's tour book, like bring all the componentsof Mary together.
And so there's a lot of research and a lot of science in this book, which I find reallyfascinating.
And one of them is in the overthinking chapter.
And it's like, there is a reason.
why when you are about to go do the really hard thing, you balk at the ledge and you go dothe quick win instead, the instant gratification, like write something on your to-do list
(25:50):
just to mark it off because you've already done it kind of thing.
And it's actually science.
So when you are really pushing, trying to think your way out of a problem or think yourway into moving forward on the dream and you're just living in the prefrontal cortex, if
you've ever felt like I'm going to sneeze through my forehead, that's what it feels liketrying to solve this problem is trying to sneeze through your forehead.
then that's getting stuck in the problem solving centers of your brain when really likeinnovation and true creativity really come alive in the limbic part of your brain, which
(26:17):
only turns on when your prefrontal cortex relaxes.
And so if you spend too much time up here, this byproduct called glutamate can actuallybuild up in the prefrontal cortex to toxic levels.
And so your brain will switch to like instant gratification activities.
People just used to think it was like,
an excuse we used to chase the quick win, but your brain actually does it for a much moreserious reason, which is to preserve brain functioning.
(26:44):
So there's a reason that it feels like it's much easier to go do the easy thing than toactually do the hard work of sanctification, for example.
Yeah.
I'm so glad that you said that.
one of the things I was like, I don't really know the brain science behind this.
Because I was like, I really feel like a lot of it is just because of the dopamine thatyou end up getting from the thing that's like the easy, the dopamine you get from
(27:06):
scrolling on Instagram.
I even went, I'm just going to be real.
I was talking with my husband about some pretty little more serious topics.
And I was like, mean, for example, it's much easier for somebody who has a
unfulfilled sexual desires to open up pornography than it is for them to not.
like, that's that like, it's the it's the the wrestling, the internal wrestling of thebrain that just, it takes work, it takes work.
(27:37):
So we'll like from that, like, if we're the experts of our own internal combustion, how dowe then shift away from that and from internal explosions to instead like
internal restoration.
I like that word restoration a lot.
So the next part in that passage about we're experts in our own internal combustion isthis something to the effect of we figured out a way to harness the rotting backyard piles
(28:05):
of rejection.
So other people telling us you can't do it or you won't be the one to, you know, be theone to go do it.
You know, we doubt you.
We overlook you.
These hot rotting piles of rejection in the backyard corners of our mind and turn theminto jet fuel.
You know, there's sort of like this imagery of like we're composting jet fuel to likestore away for, you future use as an accelerant of explosive proportions.
(28:28):
Like just go ahead, underestimate me.
That'll be fun.
Like it's that sort of energy.
And so that's in chapter one.
In chapter 14, which is our last chapter, we actually come full circle to that moment.
There are a lot of full circle moments in this book that were just below in my mindbecause this this is book.
I think it's true of all books.
This book was one more than any of the other.
(28:49):
you know, of the three was revealing itself to me as I was writing it.
So I'm like literally on the floor being like, what is that real?
So in chapter 14, I talk about this sugar factory that actually exploded down in Georgiain like 2007, 2008.
It was a really horrible accident.
A lot of people died.
A lot of people got really badly burned.
(29:09):
And what happened was that it was a sugar refinery and the like powdered sugar dust hadsettled in the silos.
And the CEO said we weren't doing the housekeeping.
And so it accumulated and the sugar dust acted like gunpowder and set off this series ofreactions.
And I quote in that section, a section from dirt and a section from slow growth.
(29:33):
The one on dirt is talking about when I get into law school and I feel like I have a holein my heart the size of a chest wound, every time the cold air hits just right, it sends
these exposed roots screaming back into action, sort of root canal the size of a chestwound.
And I've tried to backfill it with gold stars and A pluses and brand name labels anddegrees and accomplishments and accolades and like, you know, none of it worked.
(29:54):
It turned out in the end, what I needed was an extraction, not a filling in order to fillthat hole in my heart.
And so that's, you know, this side of it.
And over here in slow growth, I talk about sometimes, you know, will I ever matter?
You'd be surprised how many times those words have tumbled from my lips.
Some days I feel like I might just disappear altogether, dematerialize, you know, abillion atomized molecules
(30:16):
floating on the roaring void.
And so you take these two things together and dirt.
I talk about that like God being like a pez dispenser.
Give me the sugary sweet highs of getting everything I ever wanted.
Don't worry about my like how anemic my faith has become.
Just keep the candy coming God.
And so the sugar had become a billion atomized molecules floating on the void.
(30:36):
And if we aren't doing the housekeeping to make sure that junk isn't accumulating, then webecome this internal explosion.
We become this burned out hollow shell of ourselves.
because we were chasing sugar dust, and we were chasing this fuel that is not sustainable.
And what we need is a much more renewable fuel source, something like purpose, if we'regoing to make it all the way up this mountain.
(31:00):
that was a lot of information.
I'm like, in sub-reference one in my first book.
no, I think it's so, it's so important because I think it is, it's recognizing and namingthose things that then no longer like back to that, that whole, the notion of power and
(31:21):
authority is like when you are able to name those things and recognize them, then they nolonger have as much power over you.
Okay, I just have to riff on that for a second if I can.
Okay, this is blowing my mind that you just said this and you said it, you came at it froma totally different angle than any of the other conversations that I've had.
But so, you people have been saying like, are like, what are some of like thepracticalities of this book?
(31:43):
And there are a ton of practicalities throughout the book.
There are a of tips, whatever.
To me, the most important work that this book does is A, it shows you that fear is such aboring liar and it kind of lays them all out.
But B, my whole goal
And we learned this from like teaching photography courses that, humans are hardwired tolearn best through story and through very unexpected visual metaphors.
(32:06):
The greatest teacher who ever walked the planet taught in story and very unexpected visualmetaphors.
And when the people didn't understand the metaphor, he wasn't like, OK, so here's what I'mdoing, blah, blah, blah, blah.
He's like, let me tell you another metaphor.
Right.
And so what I have done is in addition to identifying all the different faces of fear, Ihave gone to give them these incredibly like visceral, unexpected
(32:28):
sometimes quirky imagery to associate with them.
So like one of my favorite ones is in chapter four, which is second guessing is a missinghandbook.
And it goes through this whole big, really fun description of like what this missinghandbook looks like.
It's like, you know, no embellishments on the cover.
It's the stealth wealth of information, whatever.
Really fun description of it.
(32:49):
But then I come, you know, for some of us, we don't feel like we were the eight year old.
Chad sitting at the family dinner one night, Chad passed the mashed potatoes and by theway make sure you understand compound interest, right?
We've been sort of having to figure it out ourselves for all these grown-up years and sothen I take that and I compare it to Edward Scissorhands and I say for those of us who
feel like we are missing this handbook, we never got this handbook, it's like we'rewalking around the world without all the pertinent parts.
(33:14):
Like Edward Scissorhands dropped down right in the middle of some pastel suburban hell
we find that when we break the rules because we did not know the rules, we are somehow theones who died death by a thousand cuts.
And then it kind of goes on and riffs on that for a while.
But so now that person who's like me, who feels like they never got the missing handbook,that's like one visual they can hold on to of like, okay, here's why I feel like no matter
what I choose, I will always choose wrong.
(33:36):
And somebody else would always choose better.
They have information I did not get.
But I can actually put this really like tender, empathetic, wrong.
little bit of a wrong wound.
Like Edward Scissorhands, like you could have the kindest heart imaginable, but one slipup and they'll run you right out of town.
Right?
And so the next time they're in that position, somebody can be like Edward Scissorhandsproblem.
(34:02):
That's what's happening.
Oliver Twist problem, Princess and the P problem, research Riptide problem.
And I was on a show a couple of days ago, Sarah Rice on This Changes Everything said,yeah, it's kind of like in The Wizard of Oz where you have the great and powerful,
terrifying Oz.
and somebody pulls back the curtain and all the power runs out of the room, right?
It just diffuses fear of all that power.
(34:23):
If I can give somebody these very memorable, visceral, very easy, quick to recall, becausethey're just so quirky and unexpected language to go, I know what you're doing, fear.
I know what you're doing.
And it's not going to make fear leave the room, but it is going to just diffuse it of allits power.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Yeah, that is, I could not agree more because it's something that I feel really passionateabout.
(34:44):
It's obviously, it's why I'm a storyteller as well.
And I think that you and I are just so similar in that respect.
it is because, yeah, like people, that is our brains are just hardwired to connect likethat.
But that is when you are able to name those things, when you are able to recognize thosethings, that's when it's like, OK.
(35:07):
me home.
I think for, for me, something, so I'm working with a mentor right now.
and I never really kind of worked in a formal like mentor, men T relationship before I'vealways had kind of people I've like looked up to, but this is somebody I like, I, know,
personally sat down and said, would you be my mentor for this season?
And so one of the things that we're doing together is I said, I need you to help me.
(35:31):
name some of these things that are holding me back from growing in this area.
so like, you know, identifying some of the areas that I know I need to grow in, butbringing somebody else in to recognize like, here is, here is what is holding you back.
And actually was really interesting.
Like we were having lunch and we always meet over food because everything is better forchips and salsa.
(35:54):
it just, you just have better conversations when you have Mexican restaurant diet.
Yes, well, I'll say regular coke, but yes, yes.
for me, my brain just functions at a higher level.
knows, you know, I know I need some arroz caballo.
(36:15):
And anyway, but truly, like we have some of our deepest conversations in Mexicanrestaurants, I'm telling you.
And, and, you know, I was I was kind of wrestling with something and I realized that therewas like something that was holding me back in a relationship that and
Um, with somebody that I'm, you know, kind of is in my sphere.
And she said, I think what you haven't named is that you need, uh, it was, it wassomething that I'd felt hurt by that I had been kind of holding onto this thing, needing
(36:48):
an apology.
Um, and she was like, I think that what you've done is you haven't named that.
And so what that's done is you've then built up a little bit of resentment cloaked inkindness.
Yeah.
Wow.
Oof.
Ouch.
Ouch.
like you've built up resentment cloaked in kindness.
(37:09):
And she said, and so what you have to do is you have to either, let it go, or you have togo to them and tell them.
And she said, or you can even do something that's even more humbling and that's, encouragethem.
And, and I was like,
(37:29):
Okay.
Well, I didn't, you know what I mean?
But, and I realized that I'm kind of trying to be a little careful in how I share this,but it was one of those moments where it, I needed, I knew what I needed to do, but it
actually took someone else recognizing it and naming that in me for then, for me to thenbe able to do the work and be able to heal from it.
(37:51):
And I would, I can say like a month later, two months later, like I'm in a much betterplace than I was with this situation.
And
And so I share that example because I think sometimes we think and forgive me if like,cause maybe I just didn't get to this part in your book.
Yeah, don't really.
(38:12):
But one of the things I think that's important, I'd love for you to, because I know thatyou involve community and people and you speak so much to mentoring and working with
coaching and things like that is sometimes
when we recognize, we're unable to recognize what is holding ourselves back.
And so by then reaching out to someone else to bring them in to our own stories and to bevulnerable enough to say, I need you to walk alongside me.
(38:45):
I need an accountability partner.
I need a mentor.
I need somebody else to maybe even call out those things.
Because I know that this is something that you're really passionate about.
That's why I share that.
that part of this is that sometimes, you know, for the person listening who's like, all ofwhat you guys have said has sounds really great, but I'm too scared to do this by myself.
(39:05):
And sometimes the answer is you don't have to do this by yourself.
That can be a really difficult, fearful, fear laden step.
Yes.
gosh, I got like five things I want to say about that.
I'm gonna try to organize.
No, no, no, it's good.
I'm just trying to like organize it in my brain.
Okay, so here's what comes up for me when you say that.
Number one, this is why I talk about, more so in slow growth in this book, but I talkabout this idea of like your people should be mirrors, not microscopes.
(39:34):
Mirrors will show you who you are and who you're becoming.
Microscopes will hold you in one place for easier scrutiny.
You know, if you think about like a microscope, those little slides and the little...
arms that come and hold it in one place.
And so having somebody who can kind of hold up that mirror and go, you're saying this, buthere's what I'm hearing.
Do we want to name that?
So that's number one is making sure you have those mirror kind of people in your life.
(39:55):
Number two, one of the biggest reasons we need to name this fear is because when it goesunnamed, as you have just described experiencing, it becomes this kind of mythical
colossus in our minds.
And I'm referencing a part in the book.
This is in chapter seven.
Overthinking is an orange safety cone.
And I go through this whole big deep dive on overthinking itself.
(40:16):
And then it's like, we think we're done.
And then it's like, hold on, hold on.
Let's look at this overlapping shore, this Venn diagram where perfectionism andoverthinking join forces in some really unexpected ways.
And one of them I lovingly refer to as the Colossus of Clout.
And it's from the Sandlot.
And it's talking about, know, Smalls didn't know who the great Bambino was.
(40:40):
And so all the boys are reacting and they're like,
the Sultan of Swat, the King of Swing.
And there are these two brothers, Timmy and Tommy, and one of them goes, the Colossus ofClout.
And the other one goes, the Colossus of Clout.
And like just repeats it, but louder.
And it goes on to talk about like in the movie, you're going to love this because of thefull reference to mythology.
(41:03):
There was this beast living next door.
They only caught glimpses of through the fence, who they in their minds let them run wildand became a much bigger threat than it was.
turned out to be a really sweet dog named Hercules, a mythical colossus, but only in theirminds.
And so that's kind of that idea of like when we name it, we're going back to the Wizard ofOz, we're taking all the power out of the room.
(41:25):
Two more things that I'll say on that.
The next is just sort of, we're talking about the person listening who this sounds reallyhard and it sounds really scary to reach out to somebody.
And rather than me saying right now in this moment like,
Just do it.
It's so easy or it'll be so worth it which all of that is like can be true I want to meetyou in a place of deep empathy because in chapter 10 which we reference referenced earlier
(41:51):
Perfectionism is hiding with better PR I'd actually talk about how this combination ofcharacteristics in my story from being you know a child of the 80s where we were all
basically feral cats left to fend for ourselves a Proud Appalachian where the last thingin the world we ever want to have to do is be in a position to ask somebody else for help
and being an Enneagram four with a very strong wing three who does not like to showweakness.
(42:15):
It has turned me into somebody who walks around in the world in some very hyper vigilant,self-sufficient to the point of self-sabotaging ways.
And I have this string of sentences that I almost cut because they're very vulnerable.
But I ultimately left them in and I'm hearing from people already that they're superresonating with it.
It's like, I don't want you feeling sorry for me.
I don't want you to ever your eyes in some sort of sympathy shame on my behalf.
(42:38):
while we're at it unless specifically asked, I don't want your advice, your opinions, yourgood practices.
They run in my ears, run down my throat and taste like condescension.
I want you worrying about me.
Then I'll just have to worry about you worrying about me.
And it goes on in that chapter to basically say, it turns out priding yourself on notneeding people is a really great way not to have any.
(43:00):
So there's probably another thing that I was thinking of, but that was a lot of talkingand I'm sure that a few things have come up for you.
So we'll just kind of leave it at those three where it is like cherish your mirror peoplewhen you find them, let them hold up a mirror and show you who you are and what you're
becoming.
Make sure that you are not letting this fear that goes unnamed become a mythical colossusand don't pride yourself so much on not needing somebody that you end up not having
(43:27):
people.
Yeah, no, think that that is, yeah, I mean, I think that that's one of those lessons thatis incredibly difficult for us, especially in our individualistic society and culture that
we have a hard time with.
(43:48):
we just end up creating this world in which we are
on our own lonely island and we look around and suddenly it's like, well, wait, how did Iget here?
But then when you actually zoom out and you look and it's like, we put ourselves there.
(44:13):
And that's a hard pill to swallow at times, but you don't have to stay stuck there.
Yeah.
and so, but in order to get off of that lonely Island, so I guess I'm, feel like I have tosay this for the person listening that is feels like they're on the lonely Island.
And I don't say that you put yourself there in a condom in a condemning way.
(44:34):
That's not my heart at all, but I think it is important to sometimes recognize, it can bereally easy.
And I also, I'm sensitive to like, there's all sorts of scenarios that can happen in ourlives, but a lot of times.
it starts with us and it starts with with looking at how do we be vulnerable enough tomake amends where amends need to be made to reach out and you know, apologize.
(45:02):
I mean, I remember, like, I talk about this some in my book is when I had reached my rockbottom, and I had, I was so broken, I was so isolated, I was so
ashamed of the mistakes that I'd made.
(45:22):
yet I continued in this cycle of making more mistakes, but in the process, I have, I hadalienated a lot of people around me and it, had to come to a point where I had to realize
that like, yes, some stark circumstances in my life were, were really difficult.
And I had been dealt a really difficult, deck of cards, but also at the same time, like alot of it was my fault and.
(45:50):
I, I had to come to a point where I couldn't blame others at any point.
And I had to just realize that yes, like I was in a lot of ways, like playing the handthat I was dealt, but I could have handled it a little bit differently or better.
And so I in, in that process of, getting myself off of it, cause I was the person on thelonely Island.
(46:11):
So that's why I feel like I can say this because I'm speaking from experience and that Iwas the person on the lonely Island and number one.
First, I had to surrender to God and I had to ask God, one, for forgiveness.
And he then had to help build me a boat to get off the island.
And then, I'm really going with the analogy here.
Then, at that point, I had to then recognize, like, I was so isolated.
(46:36):
I had burned a lot of the relationships in my life.
And what I had to do was I had to reach out.
I had to take that very scary step and reach out to some of the people, like,
one of the people that immediately comes to mind is like my roommate from college, JaneBarry, who I talk about her in the book.
She's just one of my oldest and dearest friends from college.
And I had really hurt her in that time.
(46:58):
And it wasn't intentional.
I wasn't trying to hurt her, but in my own pain and in my own suffering, I had hurt myfriend.
And so I had lost that relationship and I had to humble myself enough.
to reach out to her and say, miss you.
And I would really like to get together.
(47:20):
And so guess what?
We met over chips and salsa at Plaza Azteca.
I know.
And so we went to a Mexican restaurant and I sat down and I cried and I said, thank youfor meeting me.
And I said, I just know I need to make amends.
I need to apologize.
And I said, I'm not making excuses, but I need you to know like what was going on in mylife.
(47:44):
and let her in.
And so I just, for the next couple hours, I was vulnerable.
I said all of the things, Mary.
And then I ultimately ended with, like, will you forgive me?
And she, of course, said yes.
And we were able to begin the process of restoring that relationship.
But I had to do that a few times.
And so sometimes, like, that's really difficult to do.
(48:08):
And so I think that that's just my encouragement to somebody who's like,
some to and again, I don't know all the different scenarios and nuances of our lives, butjust sometimes we have to humble ourselves when and realize what are the areas that maybe
we had some missteps and need to take that next step to then begin to heal and invitepeople back into our lives so that we can have the mirror friends, we can have the mirror
(48:33):
mentors and rather than the microscope people.
That's right.
You know what that made me think of is that's also so good.
it made me think of it's like a kind of a there's laterally that's a laterally connectedpoint.
But I think it's actually it kind of gets it.
It's like the same thing you're saying, but in a different way is in Chapter eight,procrastination is a double edged sword.
(48:58):
It's talking about there's a section that's talking about why procrastinators never seemto learn from their mistakes.
We repeat the lesson until it is learned, only we never seem to learn it.
And it's talking about the difference between what's called a downward counterfactual andan upward counterfactual.
And so a downward counterfactual is like an exercise in at least.
Well, at least I got turned in on time, even if it was like an all-nighter.
(49:20):
At least I still got to get great, even though I bet it could have been better if I gavemyself more time.
You know, at least whatever.
At least I didn't get an incomplete.
I'm just, they're all, they're all turning into paper analogies, which is one of the onesI talk about in the book.
But anyway, so downward counterfactual is an exercise in at least I call it like a it'slike a silver linings playbook, like we're constantly looking for how it all still managed
(49:42):
to turn out.
And upward counterfactual on the other hand goes, wow, think about how much less stress Iwould have been if I'd given myself more time.
Think about, you know, like it gives the example of Bonnie on the TV show, Mom, she's likethe they live in the apartment building for free because she's the super but she never
does any of the work and then they're going to like fill out the, you know, reports.
(50:03):
the customer survey reports or whatever, and she suddenly is trying to get it all done andshe's like, huh, complaining about this took me like six months, doing it took like six
minutes, I feel like there's a lesson there.
Only you get the distinct impression she hasn't learned a thing.
Upward counterfactual is willing to say this is what I did, I'm going to acknowledge thepain that it brought me, and I'm not going to like try to gloss over it so that I can
(50:26):
actually learn from it.
And that kind of like builds on some other stuff we talk about in the failure chapter.
Failure is a bankrupt identity.
Chapter 11, Failure is a bankrupt identity.
I was quite proud of that naming right there.
Chapter 11, bankruptcy.
It's not about bankruptcy at all.
But it is about this idea of like, we will sometimes try so hard to avoid the pain ofacknowledging a failure because we don't want it to become our, we are the failure, our
(50:49):
identity, that we'll pretend like nothing happened at all.
And we just kind of gloss over it we never learn from it.
So it's kind of like, it's what you're saying.
It's like we have to kind of deal with
This was actually really painful and it was my fault in some ways, you know, like let'sdeal with the parts that were my fault and under my control.
Yeah.
Yeah.
man.
That's so powerful.
Man, Mary, I have just like so many other questions I want to ask you.
(51:10):
and, but I'm, guess to close, con to conclude, cause this episode could be four hourslong, but I'm not Joe Rogan.
I'll be honest.
don't know how that guy does it.
Like three, four hour long podcast.
I don't know.
And my husband really into a Jaco.
Okay.
Jaco Willink and Jaco's podcast.
(51:32):
He'll listen to Jaco and Jaco's episodes are like three to four hours long.
I'm like, how does this guy do it?
I'm like, don't.
Anyway, all that to say is kind of in closing is, obviously, we've been talking about alot of the themes of underestimated.
And there's a lot in fear and our kind of propensity to play small.
(51:57):
But I would love for you to just kind of share ultimately your heart for this book andlike who you are really hoping is the person that picks it up and what your prayer is for
that person.
Yeah.
The by far and away most target bullseye, most bullseye target reader for this book arethe people who, you know, the dedication in the book, the very first page talks about like
(52:30):
the Elizabeth Kubler Ross quote, beautiful people don't just happen.
And, you know, I go on to say like hard story people are my kind of people.
Pain, like progressively finer grits of paper has rounded off the hard edges, making ussoft places to land for others.
But at the same time, that muddy story makes us doubt.
that someone like us could ever do the thing, right?
That I've been saying this book is for the one who feels like they're being called up togreatness, they're being called up to more, but at the very same time, you simultaneously
(52:54):
doubt that someone like you could ever get there.
And so here's what I'm gonna tell you, Molly.
I feel like I was specifically put on this earth to serve the hard story people, to servethe family tree changers, the generation changers, the people where, you know, our friend
Hannah Bruncher talks about a line.
a Sharpie line through the calendar dividing the calendar into a before and after.
(53:16):
Well, these are the people who are going to divide their family tree into a before and anafter.
And in so many ways, these people have already come so far.
Maybe they were the first in their family to go to college.
They maybe are the first to own a home.
Maybe they're parenting really differently, finance, you know, doing their finances reallydifferently, whatever the case is.
But they have hit an upper limit.
And that upper limit is like, I just keep starting over.
(53:37):
Like I'm my own worst enemy.
Like, why do I keep dropping the boulder at the very last minute?
Because I feel like if that group of people could be set free from this icy grip of fear,they're, you know, it's like I've been joking, like it's like Mean Girls, like the limit
does not exist for what these people could go do, the change that they could have in theworld.
And so from the very bottom of my heart, like hand raised to God, I believe this book isgoing to change family trees.
(54:04):
I believe it's going to set people free of this return to chaos.
and instability that they just don't know why they can't shake because it's familiar, youknow, from their childhood.
And there's a lot there and it's, there's a, we go, we go deep.
and it's, it's a transformational arc.
Like read this bad boy from start to finish.
Don't skip around.
each one builds on the one that came before, but I, I truly, truly believe we're going tosee a generation of women in particular, but men as well, but people who are changing
(54:34):
their family trees, just like that, those
chains we talked about tripping them up, those limiting beliefs tied up around theirankles are going to break loose and we're just going to see these people sprint, you know,
full forward on the purpose and the good work that was prepared for them in advance.
And I pray that when I get to heaven, I'm going to get just a glimpse, like a moviemontage of just like all the things that happened because fear stopped having the loudest
(54:59):
voice in the room.
We pulled back the curtain and all the power ran out of the room that fear had.
So that's what I'll say about that.
that's so good, Mary.
You know, as you were talking and kind of just throughout this conversation, I don't knowthis is something you do, but I feel like your book needs to have a theme song.
And I don't know if you've heard this song, we just started singing it at church and I hadnot heard it until the last couple months.
(55:24):
And so it's a new newer worship song, but it's called Made for More by Bethel.
And the chorus is
is, um, I wasn't made to be tinned in a grave.
I was called by name, born and raised back to life again.
I was made for more.
(55:47):
Um, and, uh, and then, uh, Oh gosh.
Um, but it's, it goes, it goes on just about how, um, we weren't, we weren't called to beagain, tending a grave.
weren't called to be.
Dead in our shame.
We were not called for anything like God called it He made us for more and I just feellike that song the the verses and the verse When you get off of that like go listen to
(56:16):
that song Because I just feel like it is the heartbeat of this message It's just that youwere like you were God did not call you to play small He did not call you to to shrink
back.
He made you for more than you
Love that.
my heart and my prayer for you.
(56:37):
I love you so much.
Thank you so much.
my gosh.
I have two quick things for your people if that's okay.
Two super quick.
One of them is I introduce these characters actually first in slow growth as you probablyremember Molly, but they carry over into underestimated and they are the five achiever
types.
And this time we talk about them from like the perspective of like how and why they playsmall and where they get stuck and where they get tripped up along the way.
(57:02):
And so we have the performer who's always on her toes.
wanting to show both herself and other people how far she's come.
So I am the performer.
The tightrope walker could care less who's clapping, but they need higher and higherdeath-defying feats to feel the same amount of good.
The masquerader hides in plain sight and shoves other people into the spotlight.
The contortionist is our classic people pleaser.
They contort because it is easier than to be criticized.
(57:24):
And the illusionist in the distance believes that all the conditions to begin and theythemselves must be perfect before they can even start.
And so if you go to achieverquiz.com, achieverquiz.com or marymaranz.com slash quiz,M-A-R-A-N-T-Z is my last name, then the quiz itself takes like 10 minutes, two minutes if
you do it really fast, you know, just go on gut instinct, it's like 10 questions.
(57:47):
And we go light and easy on the questions and then in a true Mary form, we go deep andhard in the results.
That felt like a Tina Turner quote or something.
We're gonna take it nice and easy and then we're gonna go hard.
Now, we go deep in the results of like why each type gets tripped up playing small and howyou actually break out of that and move forward.
So that's AchieverQuiz.com.
And then if you go to NameTheFear.com, that's where we have all the information up for thebook.
(58:10):
And we actually have for your listeners that they can go right now if they go toNameTheFear.com.
We have the entire first chapter up there for free.
They can download it and start reading it for free today.
Check it out.
Get a feel for my writing.
And while you're there, because as Molly will tell you, preorders are huge, huge, forgetting good books out in the world.
Yes.
all the celebrity connections and the millions of followers, pre-orders are where it's at.
(58:34):
We have the first three chapters are available for you if you pre-order and the audiobook.
So it's kind of like getting two books for the price of one.
And Mary's amazing voice reads it and so stupid.
to you for hours.
So that's at NameTheFear.com, can check that out.
Pre-orders are huge, they would mean the world.
And then at MaryMarians on Instagram, come tell me if you listen to the episode, what yourachiever type is, all the things.
(58:58):
You can watch me unbox the book, see my double chin.
No, no, Mary.
Well, I will have all of that in the show notes for everyone.
So please, yes, go get this book.
And Mary, I just, like I said, before we started recording, I just adore you.
I'm so grateful for you.
I can't believe we've known each other as long as we have.
(59:20):
And I'm just truly, it's a joy and a gift to watch you face the fear and push through thefear and to step out into the giftings that God's given you.
I love you.
Thank you.
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