April 30, 2025 • 42 mins
I'm thrilled to welcome Niki Hardy to the show this week! Niki is the author of the Audie Award-nominated Breathe Again and One Minute Prayers for Women With Cancer. Her newest book, God, Can We Chat? A Daringly Honest Guide to Growing Closer to God, One Doubt at a Time, hit shelves in March, which I’m so excited to chat about today.
Niki has left corporate life, moved continents, gone to seminary, planted churches, launched businesses and nonprofits, and navigated seasons of deep loss, cancer, church hurt, and painful uncertainty. Through it all, she firmly believes that God loves a cheerful doubter.
In this conversation, we talk about what it means to bring your real questions and struggles to God, and how to navigate those seasons when it feels like He’s silent. It’s a rich and hope-filled reminder that joy can exist even in the hardest seasons.
4:30 – Niki 101
• Moving from the UK to North Carolina
• What led Niki to becoming an author
• Niki’s family and love for nature
6:11 – The Cheerful Doubter
• Niki’s struggle to reconcile her doubts
• Turning towards God in times of doubt
• How doubt and faith can coexist
12:51 – Walking in Doubt
• For the person that feels let down by God
• Practical steps for doubt walking
• The acronym “CHAT”
23:35 – The Legacy of Doubting Saints
• Peter walking on water
• Devotional elements and exercises Niki’s book
• Holding doubts and joys together
29:08 – God, Can We Speed Chat?
• Rapid fire questions with Niki
• Where you can connect with Niki
• Getting your copy of God, Can We Chat?
FEATURED QUOTES
“I think God actually loves a cheerful doubter. I think he'd rather we came to him than we just slid out the side door.”
“Feel free to question His presence and His provision and His providence and His goodness and His mercy, and cry out to Him, but turn towards him, not away from him.”
“I think holding the doubt and the questions and the confusion in tension with the joy and the love and the faith that we do have is just such a healthy way of walking our faith journey out.”
Learn more about Niki:
https://www.nikihardy.com/
Get your copy of God, Can We Chat?
https://www.nikihardy.com/godcanwechat
Niki on Social Media:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/NikiHardyauthor/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/niki.hardy/?hl=en
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Well, I'm very excited because today I have a fellow North Carolinian on the show.
However, when she starts talking, you're going to be like, I don't think she's from NorthCarolina.
So welcome, Nikki, to the show.
Thank you.
It's fantastic to be here and yes, I'm not from the deep south.
(00:21):
Well, I am from the deep south, but not of America, of England.
Okay, so I just have to ask like what brought you to North Carolina?
Well, it sounds rather ridiculous, but it was God's idea.
We came to Plant Church and Molly, we were like, really God, there's a pub on every cornerin London and there's a church on every corner in Charlotte.
(00:42):
Why would we go to Charlotte?
But he made it very clear, which was good because we needed to know that we really knewthat we knew that we were meant to be here.
yeah, so gosh, coming up for 19 years, 19 years ago.
Yes, and I can't even do an American accent, so please don't ask me.
Everyone's like, you've kept your accent.
(01:03):
And I say, it's more like I can't actually do an American accent.
And you have kids, so your kids were all born in the UK or they were born here?
yeah they were eight six and turning four when we moved here so they all have varyingdegrees of mid-atlantic accent or code switch really they don't know they're doing it so
(01:27):
yeah they flip-flop.
Well, it's interesting that you say that.
So one of my best friends growing up, sadly, we lost touch really after high school, butwe were, you know, best friends all through middle school and high school.
Like she was, her whole family is from the UK and she moved here when she was probablyeight or nine.
And it was so funny because like there were times where it didn't sound like she had anaccent at all, or there would be times where she would say aluminium and stupri.
(01:52):
And I would be like, yes, you are not from here.
are.
there it is there it is and then of course in middle school everybody was like saystrawberry say strawberry say aluminium and she was like i'm not a monkey
my son, I remember him coming back from school one day and he goes, Mom, I earned a dollarfor saying Harry Potter.
(02:14):
I'm like, okay, entrepreneur that you are.
I mean, frankly, I might like try to just like, I mean, I can do a pretty good Britishaccent.
I'm just saying I should really just start going places, charging.
my gosh, that's amazing.
Well, I would love for you to do what all my guests do.
(02:35):
And that's give us the Nicky Hardy 101.
So tell us who you are, what you do and how you got to where you are today.
Well, I've already explained how I got to where I am in Charlotte, North Carolina bychurch planting, but I'm an author and a speaker and a coach.
And it was rather a shock to end up here.
(02:56):
Molly, it was not my idea to write books and to be a speaker.
mean, yes, I was a speaker as being a pastor's wife, but not in the kind of whole bookwriting, authorly world.
And I came to it through really my story of losing my mom to cancer and then my sister tocancer and then being diagnosed myself.
(03:21):
And the journey that came out of that and the questions I had for God, and that led to myfirst book, Breathe Again.
And then I was asked to write one minute prayers for women with cancer.
And now my latest book, God Can We Chat?
A Daringly Honest Guide to Growing Closer to God came out of
All the other questions I had for God and what do do when we get to that place?
(03:44):
So, yeah, I'm now an empty nester about to our youngest is about to graduate from ChapelHill.
So we nearly got them all off the payroll.
deals, just gotta say that, I have to.
heels.
Yes.
And yeah, so I'm a bit of a fresh air junkie.
Love to talk about encountering God in nature and living wildly known.
(04:07):
And those are the things that get me up in the morning as well as our lovely but ratherridiculous golden doodle, Charlie, who is, I think, why the kids come home.
It's got nothing to do with us.
I love it.
I love it.
Well, I just want to say that, you know, I, I, this is not, this is not a moment of mebeing like, look at me as, but as somebody who has been doing a podcast for a very long
(04:30):
time, I get, I can't even begin to tell you how many like pitches for different guests andthings like that on my show.
And I just, the real is I can't do them all.
But when I saw your book come across my desk, God, can we chat?
just immediately was like, yes.
Yes, 100 % because I feel like this is in an age of deconstruction, in an age of, youknow, women in particular leaving the church at an alarming rate.
(05:03):
I think that a conversation around doubt is so needed and this book is so needed.
And so that's why I was just, I was just so excited.
you.
And one of the things you say kind of in the beginning of this book is you say, God lovesa cheerful doubter.
(05:23):
And I just absolutely love that phrase.
It's so countercultural.
It's so counter to what I think a lot of modern Western Christians really even understand.
So I want you to kind of share like how has that conviction come to you even through yourown journey and
(05:43):
how we understand that as something that is true.
Yeah, and it's been a bit of a journey.
I didn't kind of wake up one morning with questions and go, goody, well, that's okay,because God loves a cheerful doubter.
It was a bit of a roundabout journey.
(06:05):
Obviously we came over to Plant Church and then I had lost my mom and my sister to cancer.
I'd been through cancer.
Al, my husband, had been through burnout.
We'd been through all sorts of difficult things.
And then of course, bam, the pandemic hits.
And not only do we have suffering on an unprecedented global scale, but there is racialand social and political unrest.
(06:29):
is division within the church and the wider church.
And then in our particular church, of course, everyone suddenly is an epidemiologist and apolitician and a researcher and knows what they know.
And it was just Tinder.
to the spark that the politicians in the media were throwing out.
(06:54):
And so it was an incredibly difficult time.
And I was hearing from readers these deep, painful stories of what they were goingthrough.
And I was also reading the Bible and going, hmm, that used to sit okay with me, but I'mnot sure it does anymore.
I know I'm meant to think, well, you
(07:18):
God was okay with it, God even ordained it, so okay.
But this time around it was like, is it though?
And so everything God Faith Church felt difficult.
And I found myself, as I explain in God Can We Chat, getting to this place where the oncefamiliar and...
(07:43):
deep felt words of amazing grace.
I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see.
Not feeling true.
In fact, the opposite felt truer.
And I found myself thinking, wait, I once was found, but now I'm just lost.
And it was this untethering, this unmooring of my faith.
(08:06):
I still loved God, I still believed in him, I still knew he was good, kind of.
But did I like him?
Did I like his people and his word?
I'm not sure.
And so I found myself at the crossroads of doubt and faith, looking down the doubt path,thinking, ooh, I don't know whether I want to go down there.
I love my faith.
I'm not sure I want to deconstruct.
(08:28):
A, or tell anyone that I'm deconstructing, because that comes with a whole ton of baggageand shame and messaging.
And what if it leads to deconversion?
I don't really want that.
But then I looked down the faith part and thought, well, I don't know whether I can fullycommit to going down there because what I felt like I needed to sign up for and the people
(08:52):
I needed to call my people, I wasn't sure I could.
And so I was stuck.
And my dad used to say deeply annoyingly, when you get to a fork in the road, ignore it.
And so I was like, okay, well, I'm just going to sit down and say, God.
Can we chat?
And that process of leaning into him, that process of realizing that when Jesus says,don't doubt, have great faith, and he says it multiple times, I was like, I've always
(09:24):
heard that as really condemnatory and really judgmental or really kind of, come on, buckyourself up.
But actually, what if it was such a loving, don't doubt, I'm here?
faith it's gonna be okay and I was like oh and we can come to him when we read the Psalmsand so it was this kind of slow turning of this kind of gigantic ship you know if you like
(09:52):
that doesn't turn on a dime but there I was like I think God actually loves a cheerfuldoubter I think he's he'd rather we came to him than we just slid out the side door
Right?
Well, you, you like you're alluding to you challenge this idea that doubt is the oppositeof faith, like really in a lot of ways, like they can go hand in hand.
(10:16):
So what do you believe the opposite of doubt really is?
And why does that even matter?
For me, it can mean different things to different people and it's where your doubt andyour questions come from.
So if your doubt and your questions come from a place of mistrust, like I don't trust thathe's got mine or anyone else's best motives at heart, or is it that, you know, trusting
(10:48):
his goodness?
But for me, the opposite of doubt is relationship.
It's about intimacy.
Because I can handle all sorts of mystery and confusion and questions when I'm close toGod.
It's just like when I'm bound tightly with Him and we're doing life together and I'm doinglife with Him, not for Him, then the doubts and the questions, they just don't have the
(11:16):
same amount of power.
They don't get the, you know,
the airspace that they did, even if they're still there.
Yeah, man, it's interesting that we're talking about this because I had a moment the otherday and I'm good.
I'm in a good spot.
I have a strong relationship with my Lord and Savior.
(11:40):
We have regular conversations all throughout the day, if you know what I mean.
I was in the car and you know, just I'm going through something right now and I waslistening to that worship song, Firm Foundation.
it, know, as Christ is my firm foundation, the rock on which I stand, when everythingaround me shaken, you know, I've never been more glad that I put my faith in Jesus.
(12:03):
He's never let me down.
And then, you know, it goes and he, you know, he won't fail me.
He won't.
He's been faithful then he'll be faithful now.
All of that.
And I had this moment, I'm going to be real honest here, where I said, there are a coupleof times I felt let down by God.
There's a couple of times where it has felt like he hasn't been faithful.
(12:24):
And I, it was like, I had this moment of wrestling in the car as I'm listening to thatsong.
And I'm thinking to myself, and I'm like, I know that that's the enemy coming in andtrying to like place this, but I realized I'm like, that's not an uncommon feeling.
that when we don't get the answer to the prayer that we want, when we don't, when thehealing doesn't come or the answer doesn't come or the child doesn't come or the person in
(12:57):
your family that's lost that you're praying for doesn't get saved, there are so manythings that we pray for that we don't get answers that we want to.
And so in a lot of times it can feel like
God has let us down or God has not been faithful.
And, you know, so I've been wrestling with these thoughts that I had the other day.
(13:19):
And I really was like, of having this like almost existential crisis for a moment.
But then I heard this clip from an interview with, you know, as we're recording this, it'sHoly Week.
And I heard this clip of an interview with Tim Keller.
And it was, it was an interview that he did like, I mean,
weeks before he died.
(13:40):
Like it was very, very, very recent before he died.
And one of the things he was talking about is how he and his wife were, you know, kind of,they knew that he was, you know, kind of nearing the end of his life.
And, you know, they were kind of weeping and there was a lot of feelings and heat, but hesaid, if, if Christ has really been raised from the dead, if Jesus really walked out of
(14:06):
that tomb,
And he really appeared to hundreds of people and he really, you know, like ate and drankwith his disciples and you know, all of these things.
And he really ascended to heaven.
If he really happened, everything's going to be okay.
Everything's going to be okay.
And I think in that moment, I just needed to hear that.
(14:27):
Anyway, so I share that story with you because I want you to kind of speak to that, tothat person who's maybe like me in, you know, in the car where
listening to a worship song or somebody's like, know, God never, you know, let's go of hispromises and like he is he's faithful to the end and he's never going to let you down.
And there are there's people who are listening who right now are thinking, but God's letme down.
(14:51):
So how do you how do you wrestle with that?
Yeah, it is so hard and I wish I had an easy answer, but there are no easy answers andthat's part of what I'm trying to speak into in this living in the tension and the
paradoxes of what I call, yeah, the paradox of the knowability of God.
(15:16):
And what I mean by that is we love that God is so knowable.
We can.
meet him and talk with him, we can hear his voice, we are his sheep, he is our shepherd,all that.
And we can walk by his spirit and have the spirit of God indwell within us, marvelous.
(15:38):
But equally, he's totally unknowable.
Like we cannot fathom, you know, his majesty, his thinking, we can't think any, you know,we can't understand that.
And so we live in this messy, difficult tension where many of us, myself included, thinkwe know God and we think we know how he's going to answer our prayers and take care of
(16:10):
things and what everything will be okay actually looks and feels like on the daily.
And unfortunately,
We just can't.
And it's annoying and it's frustrating and it's deeply painful.
But to that person who feels like they've been let down by God, I would have one questionand one encouragement.
(16:38):
One question is, is the way you feel let down because he hasn't done what...
you have specifically asked him to do and have you looked at what else he's done?
And I know that's the kind of trite Christian answer.
(16:59):
So people might be about to turn me off.
so my encouragement, my follow-up encouragement would be in this place of disappointment,anger even, resentment, bitterness towards God, I've been there, got the t-shirt to prove
it.
It's like, can we, rather than
shielding ourselves and turning into ourselves and turning away from God in that placebecause that's what we want to do.
(17:24):
He's not trustworthy.
I need to protect myself.
Can we in fact turn towards him and tell him how we feel and tell him we need to hear himand see him and feel him and know his comfort and his strength and get into the Psalms and
ride alongside David and the other psalmist.
(17:45):
You know, feel free to question his
and his providence and his goodness and his mercy and cry out to him but turn towards him,not away from him, chat to him.
He says, come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest.
And it's that kind of, as the message says, walk with me, talk with me, those that areexhausted and burnt out on religion.
(18:14):
learn the unforced rhythms of grace and live lightly and freely.
And that is that invitation.
Come on, it's going to be okay.
Can we lean into that?
But I know it's hard.
I don't have a X plus Y equals Z kind of answer.
No, yeah.
mean, and that I think is that speaks to something you talk about in the book, which isthat doubt walk of the doubt walk with God rather than walking away.
(18:41):
Can you want to speak to that a little bit about like what that?
you what does that look like on a practical level?
mean, I know you mentioned going into the Psalms and taking those things, but a lot oftimes, like this is an exercise in each and every day is going to look a little bit
different.
So for someone that might not be familiar with that, like, how does that work?
(19:02):
Yeah, I talk about doubt walking because it brings to mind again that verse where Jesussays, come to me and walk and talk with him.
And as we're in Holy Week, I imagine us walking and talking along the dusty roads leadingtowards Jerusalem as Jesus is going towards the cross and his destiny and all that he'll
(19:24):
do for us.
And so.
how do we do that?
How do we talk to God?
How do we chat with God?
When we're holding questions like, why did you answer her prayer and not mine?
And this doesn't feel good.
Are you sure you're good?
Because this, by my standards, is not what a good person, a loving person would do.
(19:44):
And so in the book, I lay out a conversation guide.
Because like you, I'm like, so what does that look like?
How do I actually do that?
And it follows the
deeply memorable acronym, CHAT, because my brain is very small and it needed somethingvery memorable.
And it just gives us a set of trailblazers to follow as we talk with God.
(20:09):
And I'm happy to share what those different...
Okay.
So...
The first thing is we consider the facts, the C, consider the facts.
And these are the facts of the circumstances that brought us to asking this question.
Maybe you've been struggling with infertility for years and it's deeply painful and you'rewondering where God is in that.
(20:37):
And so the circumstances are the kind of journalistic facts.
We've been trying to start a family for 10 years.
and we've prayed and prayed and nothing has happened and we don't have any children.
And then the age of chat is honor the story you're telling yourself.
(20:59):
And this is the real nugget.
And I feel like this is what Jesus wants to really have a conversation about with us whenwe pull up his celestial sofa and he sits down with a cup of tea with us because this is
the story that's
really resonating within us.
This is the one that says, it's because he doesn't love me enough, or I screwed up incollege, or it's because I'm not spiritual enough, or he's forgotten me, he's not
(21:31):
listening to me.
This is the story about ourselves.
And then, and in the book, I go through 15 to 20 questions and give specific prompts tohelp people answer.
those different, the consider the facts and honor the story.
(21:52):
And then we get to ask God what he has to say.
And this is where we say, well, God, what is it that you'd like me to know about me or youor understand or believe or shift or do?
And we're saying, what do you think about this Lord, about this story that I'm tellingmyself?
(22:13):
And then,
Because we've got to go back into everyday life.
I mean, it's nice to chat with God throughout the day, but we still need to go to work andpick up the kids and do the laundry and all those sorts of things.
And so it's, well, how can I team up with God moving forward in this area?
And so for me, that's how we have the conversation with God.
(22:38):
We consider the facts.
We honor the story we're telling ourselves.
We ask God what he has to say and we team up with him.
But I think there's also some, for some of us, there's some work we need to do beforethat, getting rid of the lies that stop us going to God.
And we've talked a bit about that.
Mm, man, that's so good.
(22:58):
Well, I think, you know, an important thing among all of this is one of the things youtalk about is this, you know, there's this legacy of doubting saints.
And so in a lot of ways, you retell a lot of the stories of some of our, you know,biblical heroes or some of the main characters who doubted.
(23:20):
And I'm curious, how does their story or stories
affect and change how we think about our own struggles in faith.
Yeah, I think it's really good to look at these people who we see as heroes of the faithand almost zero in on their struggle.
(23:44):
And often the struggle isn't always the prime story of what we're reading.
So think of Peter walking on water and he come, you know, they're all out in the boat andthey hear a voice off in the waves.
And Peter, I love Peter, he's so impulsive.
(24:05):
He's like Mr.
All in or all out.
He goes for it.
So he's like, okay, I'm gonna come to you Jesus.
And he steps out on the, he leaps over the side of the boat and goes towards Jesus.
And then when he starts to falter and he gets wet, and I tell this story and I'm imagininghim back in the boat.
(24:29):
And it says that all the other disciples start to worship.
And Jesus was like, why did you doubt?
Why didn't you have faith?
kind of, was me.
And I imagine him sitting there, sopping wet in his tunic and his sandals, maybe even hewent deep enough that his hair is wet and he is just feeling awful.
(24:54):
He gave it a go, it didn't work out.
He lost faith, if you like.
Jesus even said he didn't have enough faith.
And so he's sitting there working.
Everyone else is praising Jesus and worshiping.
And I'm like, but he's the one who got out of the boat.
He's the one who looked Jesus in the eye and walked on water.
(25:16):
No one else has walked on water apart from Jesus and Peter.
And so when we look at that, we think, how must he have felt?
He doubted.
And yet he's the rock.
He's the rock on which the church has been built.
And so when we look at these heroes of the faith and investigate their stories a littlebit more and see how loved and accepted and used by God they are, we can go, okay, I can
(25:50):
do this too.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, one thing that I love about this book is you've really kind of included a lot ofalmost like devotional type elements that invite people in to as exercises.
And so one of the things you do is you include prompts and exercises at the end of eachchapter that encourage readers to kind of mix these doubts and also with their joys into
(26:18):
like a fun joy and doubt soup.
And so, and you tell them to offer it to God.
Why is that so powerful as an image and why is that something that really helps people towork through those feelings of wrestling that they're doing?
Yeah, well I think holding the doubt and the questions and the confusion in tension withthe joy and the love and the faith that we do have is just such a healthy way of walking
(26:53):
our faith journey out about doubt walking.
And they can counteract one another and they can, the joy and the celebration and the
the gratitude that we can feel can help us see our doubts and questions differently.
They can help us talk about them with people more easily.
(27:16):
Cause the biggest lie we believe is I'm the only one who's doubting and nobody stands upin church and says, excuse me, hold on a sec.
Can you just, I'm not sure about that.
So yeah, I think walking and talking through this and we know brain research says that
when we are grateful, we see things differently.
(27:38):
We don't have to see things differently to be grateful.
We are grateful to see things differently.
And more research is coming out that when we offer that in an act of kindness and purpose,that that almost solidifies the work that the gratitude has done and we feel more
(27:59):
empowered and have more agency.
So when we are grateful,
And when we then do something with it and offer it maybe back in worship, that reallyhelps us to walk out our imperfect relationship with God.
(28:20):
I was a bit worried when I started to put all these different prompts and exercises andthings in the book because not everyone's a journaler, not everyone wants to be answering
questions.
So it's done in such a way that if you're a journaler,
You can journal away to your heart's content.
If you're not, you can just think about these questions.
But I still want to encourage people to do that because it's going through the motionsthat actually gets us to where we want to be.
(28:47):
Hmm, that's so good.
Well, as we kind of begin to wrap up our time, there was something that I wanted to dothat I think would be fun.
that's kind of a God can we speed chat rapid fire bonus round of questions.
And so just kind of I want you I got 10 questions.
(29:08):
And all I want you to do is just kind of tell me the first thing that comes to mind when Iask you this question.
Okay.
Are you ready?
There's no this
are we talking like deep theological questions or are you gonna ask me which color lipgloss I like?
No, don't overthink it.
This is very low stakes, Okay, question that kind of range and like from little silly tomaybe a little bit more on the serious.
(29:34):
So okay, so question number one is a Psalm, one of your favorite Psalms that never failsto gut punch you in the best way.
I'm afraid I'm a snippet kind of girl, so I do like sound, sound biting, but it would haveto just be some 23.
(29:56):
I know it's an oldie and a goodie, but it's just been top of the charts for so long.
I like it.
like it.
You know, the Psalms hit.
The Psalms hit.
actually in, you know, we do a chronological reading plan every year and we're, you know,in first and second Samuel where we're kind of jumping back and forth between the Psalms
and the last couple days it's been all Psalms.
(30:18):
And I'm telling you, like starting my day off all in Psalms versus like starting my dayoff in Judges is just, just hits a little different.
So.
It really does, and if you notice, what I love about the Psalms is if you look at thepattern of the the psalmist's write, you'll get this, my goodness, Lord, why is it
happening like this?
You've got to slay my enemies and, you know, where are you?
(30:39):
But I trust you, you are good.
But what about this, but what about that?
But I trust you, and it's like this back and forth, because they know that dance, thedoubt walking.
Yep, good.
Okay, question number two, and I thought this was a fun one.
When was the last time you laughed during a prayer and what happened?
(31:05):
think it was when I told God one of my plans and I was like, well, God, we could do thisand it could work out like this.
And then I was like, yeah, God, that's totally my idea.
That's totally me saying, Hey God, want to get in the passenger seat?
We're going for a really great ride.
So.
Yeah.
(31:26):
I definitely have had a couple moments in the last couple weeks where I've been prayingand then like my mind has wandered and I've like started to pray about something random
and I've literally said in the middle of my prayer like, I'm sorry, Lord, I got distractedthere for a moment.
Where was I?
Like, I just like...
I can tell you when we last laughed as a family when my husband was saying grace beforeEmil and our daughter, our middle daughter lives in New York, she's an actress.
(31:57):
so the four of us that were here, he was saying grace and rather than saying, you know, wepray for Sophie in New York, he says, and we remember Sophie, at which point.
The three of us all burst out laughing saying, she's not dead.
I mean, this isn't a kind of, and we remember those loved ones who can't be with us today,you know, so we kind of derailed things.
(32:22):
yeah, we always laugh during my kid whenever my kids pray like like my kids might well mydaughter not always but if my son's praying like he's nine like he's he's gonna say
something unhinged and you know, I just regularly I'm like, I feel like God actually maybelistens to his prayers a little bit more.
I don't have a theological backing for that but I just feel like his prayers are just soearnest and honest.
(32:45):
Especially when they mishear something and they think they've got it right.
I remember coming back from church one morning in London and James in the back, must havebeen like six or seven, said, mommy, I didn't know Jesus liked burgers.
(33:05):
I was like, really, darling?
Where did you get that from?
I haven't heard that Jesus loves burgers anyway, either.
He says, well, we sing about it.
We cast our burgers onto Jesus because he cares for us.
That is amazing.
I love that so much.
kids are the best.
(33:25):
Okay, question number three is what is a worship song that makes you cry every time youhear it, even if you're not sad?
It's I don't know what it's called.
I'm terrible with knowing what they're called, but it's the one with it's your breath inmy lungs Great are you Lord and the reason that makes me cry is?
Because both my mom and my sister died of lung cancer.
(33:48):
So I remember them struggling to breathe and Yeah, and my lungs are perfectly fine and soyeah that one
That's beautiful.
That's beautiful.
Okay, what is the most overused or like cliche Christian phrase that you would love to seeretired?
(34:15):
This isn't a phrase, it's a word.
Can I say just one word?
It's the word just.
Lord, we just pray, but we just want to do that.
We just, and I'm like, it almost diminishes what we think God is capable of.
And I'm like, no, we pray that your spirit would fall, that revival would come, thathealing would be done.
(34:41):
It's not not, I just, it's like almost.
God, if you're not busy.
So, I'd love to retire the word just.
that you say that because, so I'm in seminary right now and I mean, I'm a writer bynature.
like writing is not difficult for me, but I haven't, it's been a while since I've donelike academic writing.
(35:02):
And so that's been like exercising a muscle, but it's funny how when I was writing mybook, which is, you know, very much not academic.
something someone said to me was when you're done writing a particular section of whateverit is you're writing, whether it's a book or paper, go through and do searches for the
word just and the word that.
(35:24):
It's almost always the word just and the word that are not necessary.
They're like filler words.
Sometimes they are, but it's very rare that the word just and the word that are actuallynecessary.
And it's like, it's almost this, yeah, it's this filler word that gives us a break to thenthink about whatever the thing is next.
(35:48):
And I'm telling you, like, once you know that and you start to look in your own writing,you're like, yeah, I write that way more than I should and just way more than I should.
that's it.
Yes, amen.
Okay.
What is a doubt of your own?
that actually drew you closer to God.
(36:14):
I think, Molly, I think the biggest doubt was when I was going through cancer and wedidn't know whether I'd be okay.
And it was in my lymph nodes and all that kind of stuff.
And I was having chemo and radiation and surgery.
And for those who don't know me, mine was rectal cancer.
(36:36):
So I had an ostomy bag for a year.
I could walk and talk and poop in Target all at the same time.
great.
But the doubt was, don't think it'll be okay.
I don't think God's got this.
And actually, what came out of that wasn't when I knew that I was okay and therefore I waslike, actually it's okay.
(37:01):
So he was there and everything was okay.
It was more this leaning into him and saying, I remember Sophie, she was probably about...
11 or 12 at the time, looking me in the eye and saying, are you going to die, mommy?
And I said, well, one day, I hope not from this, but what I know is that God won't leaveus and everything's going to be okay with him.
(37:26):
then doubt crept in with that, will everything be okay?
And so actually drawing closer to him through all the treatment, I knew that whateverhappened, it would be okay.
it would be okay.
Whether I lived or died, whether, you know, I never saw my kids graduate middle school,let alone college and get married, it would be okay.
(37:51):
That's so good.
Okay, this is kind of a silly one.
But if you were on a texting relationship with God, what emoji would he send you all thetime?
trees, plants.
that.
Nature, I am a fresh air junkie.
I talk a lot about encountering God in nature and living wildly known and gonna be doing alot more of that in the coming months and years, because I've got a grant to do some
(38:22):
research and spiritual formation practices in nature.
So yes, happy things are plants, trees, flowers, animals.
That's such a good answer.
Okay, what is one piece of advice that you would give to 20 year old Nikki, who is maybekind of standing at the edge of her faith?
(38:44):
Well, 20 year old Nikki didn't really know the Lord.
I came to faith in the first year that we were married.
I would have said that I was Christian with a lower case C because I wasn't, you know, ifI had had to fill in a survey, I wasn't Muslim, Hindu, you know, atheist or, you know,
other, and I was English.
(39:05):
And so therefore I was Christian, but I didn't have.
a relationship really with God.
I felt spiritual up mountains and had labeled that God.
So my advice to that Nikki, I think would be to just go for it, to go for it and live lifeopen-hearted to God, to other people and to really lean into everything God has for her
(39:38):
because
I think she was a bit hesitant at that point.
That's good.
That's so good.
What is something about God that you used to doubt but you don't anymore?
Can you repeat that?
What is something about God that you used to doubt but you don't anymore?
(40:04):
Gosh, I think I used to doubt that he saw me all the time.
Either in...
kind of the pain and heartache, like, do you see this?
Do you see me?
Do you see my pain?
But also in the, think I can get away with it.
(40:25):
I don't think God's looking right now, kind of way.
So, and I don't doubt that at all.
I feel fully seen, fully known in a good way, not in a, he's watching, but you know, in agood way.
Yeah, that's good.
(40:45):
Okay, I got two more.
is the most surprising thing that you've discovered about God through doubting, throughwalking in doubt with him?
that he's not as fazed by our doubts as we think he is, and he's not as fazed by ourconcerns and our questions.
(41:07):
In fact, he welcomes them and he says, yeah, let's chat about them and let's draw closerand live in some mystery together.
It's gonna be fun.
Whereas I thought, it was like, no.
All right, well, that I think I know the answer to this last question, but that is, whatis your favorite spot to chat with God?
(41:31):
Yep.
outside.
It doesn't even have to be like in the mountains with this majestic view.
I can be sitting outside in our little townhouse on our postage size terrace with, youknow, one set of planters by me, but it's outside.
(41:51):
Yeah, that's so good.
Man, Nikki, this has just been such a joy.
So for people that would love to follow your work, to get your book, where can theyconnect with you and where can they get the book and all of that?
Where can they get all the things?
Well, all the things God Can We Chat is on GodCanWeChat.com and you can order it there oranywhere books are sold.
(42:12):
You can get the first three chapters for free there if you want to try before you buy.
I'm at NikkiHardy.com, I'm on Instagram, I'm on Substack and we'll be on Substack more andmore, living wildly known and helping people encounter God in nature.
And I also write and I speak.
and coach as well.
(42:32):
So all that's on my website.
Awesome.
Nikki, this has been such a pleasure.
Thank you so much for being here.
you're welcome.
It's been so fun.
Well, I'm very excited because today I have a fellow North Carolinian on the show.
However, when she starts talking, you're going to be like, I don't think she's from NorthCarolina.
So welcome, Nikki, to the show.
Thank you.
It's fantastic to be here and yes, I'm not from the deep south.
(00:21):
Well, I am from the deep south, but not of America, of England.
Okay, so I just have to ask like what brought you to North Carolina?
Well, it sounds rather ridiculous, but it was God's idea.
We came to Plant Church and Molly, we were like, really God, there's a pub on every cornerin London and there's a church on every corner in Charlotte.
(00:42):
Why would we go to Charlotte?
But he made it very clear, which was good because we needed to know that we really knewthat we knew that we were meant to be here.
yeah, so gosh, coming up for 19 years, 19 years ago.
Yes, and I can't even do an American accent, so please don't ask me.
Everyone's like, you've kept your accent.
(01:03):
And I say, it's more like I can't actually do an American accent.
And you have kids, so your kids were all born in the UK or they were born here?
yeah they were eight six and turning four when we moved here so they all have varyingdegrees of mid-atlantic accent or code switch really they don't know they're doing it so
(01:27):
yeah they flip-flop.
Well, it's interesting that you say that.
So one of my best friends growing up, sadly, we lost touch really after high school, butwe were, you know, best friends all through middle school and high school.
Like she was, her whole family is from the UK and she moved here when she was probablyeight or nine.
And it was so funny because like there were times where it didn't sound like she had anaccent at all, or there would be times where she would say aluminium and stupri.
(01:52):
And I would be like, yes, you are not from here.
are.
there it is there it is and then of course in middle school everybody was like saystrawberry say strawberry say aluminium and she was like i'm not a monkey
my son, I remember him coming back from school one day and he goes, Mom, I earned a dollarfor saying Harry Potter.
(02:14):
I'm like, okay, entrepreneur that you are.
I mean, frankly, I might like try to just like, I mean, I can do a pretty good Britishaccent.
I'm just saying I should really just start going places, charging.
my gosh, that's amazing.
Well, I would love for you to do what all my guests do.
(02:35):
And that's give us the Nicky Hardy 101.
So tell us who you are, what you do and how you got to where you are today.
Well, I've already explained how I got to where I am in Charlotte, North Carolina bychurch planting, but I'm an author and a speaker and a coach.
And it was rather a shock to end up here.
(02:56):
Molly, it was not my idea to write books and to be a speaker.
mean, yes, I was a speaker as being a pastor's wife, but not in the kind of whole bookwriting, authorly world.
And I came to it through really my story of losing my mom to cancer and then my sister tocancer and then being diagnosed myself.
(03:21):
And the journey that came out of that and the questions I had for God, and that led to myfirst book, Breathe Again.
And then I was asked to write one minute prayers for women with cancer.
And now my latest book, God Can We Chat?
A Daringly Honest Guide to Growing Closer to God came out of
All the other questions I had for God and what do do when we get to that place?
(03:44):
So, yeah, I'm now an empty nester about to our youngest is about to graduate from ChapelHill.
So we nearly got them all off the payroll.
deals, just gotta say that, I have to.
heels.
Yes.
And yeah, so I'm a bit of a fresh air junkie.
Love to talk about encountering God in nature and living wildly known.
(04:07):
And those are the things that get me up in the morning as well as our lovely but ratherridiculous golden doodle, Charlie, who is, I think, why the kids come home.
It's got nothing to do with us.
I love it.
I love it.
Well, I just want to say that, you know, I, I, this is not, this is not a moment of mebeing like, look at me as, but as somebody who has been doing a podcast for a very long
(04:30):
time, I get, I can't even begin to tell you how many like pitches for different guests andthings like that on my show.
And I just, the real is I can't do them all.
But when I saw your book come across my desk, God, can we chat?
just immediately was like, yes.
Yes, 100 % because I feel like this is in an age of deconstruction, in an age of, youknow, women in particular leaving the church at an alarming rate.
(05:03):
I think that a conversation around doubt is so needed and this book is so needed.
And so that's why I was just, I was just so excited.
you.
And one of the things you say kind of in the beginning of this book is you say, God lovesa cheerful doubter.
(05:23):
And I just absolutely love that phrase.
It's so countercultural.
It's so counter to what I think a lot of modern Western Christians really even understand.
So I want you to kind of share like how has that conviction come to you even through yourown journey and
(05:43):
how we understand that as something that is true.
Yeah, and it's been a bit of a journey.
I didn't kind of wake up one morning with questions and go, goody, well, that's okay,because God loves a cheerful doubter.
It was a bit of a roundabout journey.
(06:05):
Obviously we came over to Plant Church and then I had lost my mom and my sister to cancer.
I'd been through cancer.
Al, my husband, had been through burnout.
We'd been through all sorts of difficult things.
And then of course, bam, the pandemic hits.
And not only do we have suffering on an unprecedented global scale, but there is racialand social and political unrest.
(06:29):
is division within the church and the wider church.
And then in our particular church, of course, everyone suddenly is an epidemiologist and apolitician and a researcher and knows what they know.
And it was just Tinder.
to the spark that the politicians in the media were throwing out.
(06:54):
And so it was an incredibly difficult time.
And I was hearing from readers these deep, painful stories of what they were goingthrough.
And I was also reading the Bible and going, hmm, that used to sit okay with me, but I'mnot sure it does anymore.
I know I'm meant to think, well, you
(07:18):
God was okay with it, God even ordained it, so okay.
But this time around it was like, is it though?
And so everything God Faith Church felt difficult.
And I found myself, as I explain in God Can We Chat, getting to this place where the oncefamiliar and...
(07:43):
deep felt words of amazing grace.
I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see.
Not feeling true.
In fact, the opposite felt truer.
And I found myself thinking, wait, I once was found, but now I'm just lost.
And it was this untethering, this unmooring of my faith.
(08:06):
I still loved God, I still believed in him, I still knew he was good, kind of.
But did I like him?
Did I like his people and his word?
I'm not sure.
And so I found myself at the crossroads of doubt and faith, looking down the doubt path,thinking, ooh, I don't know whether I want to go down there.
I love my faith.
I'm not sure I want to deconstruct.
(08:28):
A, or tell anyone that I'm deconstructing, because that comes with a whole ton of baggageand shame and messaging.
And what if it leads to deconversion?
I don't really want that.
But then I looked down the faith part and thought, well, I don't know whether I can fullycommit to going down there because what I felt like I needed to sign up for and the people
(08:52):
I needed to call my people, I wasn't sure I could.
And so I was stuck.
And my dad used to say deeply annoyingly, when you get to a fork in the road, ignore it.
And so I was like, okay, well, I'm just going to sit down and say, God.
Can we chat?
And that process of leaning into him, that process of realizing that when Jesus says,don't doubt, have great faith, and he says it multiple times, I was like, I've always
(09:24):
heard that as really condemnatory and really judgmental or really kind of, come on, buckyourself up.
But actually, what if it was such a loving, don't doubt, I'm here?
faith it's gonna be okay and I was like oh and we can come to him when we read the Psalmsand so it was this kind of slow turning of this kind of gigantic ship you know if you like
(09:52):
that doesn't turn on a dime but there I was like I think God actually loves a cheerfuldoubter I think he's he'd rather we came to him than we just slid out the side door
Right?
Well, you, you like you're alluding to you challenge this idea that doubt is the oppositeof faith, like really in a lot of ways, like they can go hand in hand.
(10:16):
So what do you believe the opposite of doubt really is?
And why does that even matter?
For me, it can mean different things to different people and it's where your doubt andyour questions come from.
So if your doubt and your questions come from a place of mistrust, like I don't trust thathe's got mine or anyone else's best motives at heart, or is it that, you know, trusting
(10:48):
his goodness?
But for me, the opposite of doubt is relationship.
It's about intimacy.
Because I can handle all sorts of mystery and confusion and questions when I'm close toGod.
It's just like when I'm bound tightly with Him and we're doing life together and I'm doinglife with Him, not for Him, then the doubts and the questions, they just don't have the
(11:16):
same amount of power.
They don't get the, you know,
the airspace that they did, even if they're still there.
Yeah, man, it's interesting that we're talking about this because I had a moment the otherday and I'm good.
I'm in a good spot.
I have a strong relationship with my Lord and Savior.
(11:40):
We have regular conversations all throughout the day, if you know what I mean.
I was in the car and you know, just I'm going through something right now and I waslistening to that worship song, Firm Foundation.
it, know, as Christ is my firm foundation, the rock on which I stand, when everythingaround me shaken, you know, I've never been more glad that I put my faith in Jesus.
(12:03):
He's never let me down.
And then, you know, it goes and he, you know, he won't fail me.
He won't.
He's been faithful then he'll be faithful now.
All of that.
And I had this moment, I'm going to be real honest here, where I said, there are a coupleof times I felt let down by God.
There's a couple of times where it has felt like he hasn't been faithful.
(12:24):
And I, it was like, I had this moment of wrestling in the car as I'm listening to thatsong.
And I'm thinking to myself, and I'm like, I know that that's the enemy coming in andtrying to like place this, but I realized I'm like, that's not an uncommon feeling.
that when we don't get the answer to the prayer that we want, when we don't, when thehealing doesn't come or the answer doesn't come or the child doesn't come or the person in
(12:57):
your family that's lost that you're praying for doesn't get saved, there are so manythings that we pray for that we don't get answers that we want to.
And so in a lot of times it can feel like
God has let us down or God has not been faithful.
And, you know, so I've been wrestling with these thoughts that I had the other day.
(13:19):
And I really was like, of having this like almost existential crisis for a moment.
But then I heard this clip from an interview with, you know, as we're recording this, it'sHoly Week.
And I heard this clip of an interview with Tim Keller.
And it was, it was an interview that he did like, I mean,
weeks before he died.
(13:40):
Like it was very, very, very recent before he died.
And one of the things he was talking about is how he and his wife were, you know, kind of,they knew that he was, you know, kind of nearing the end of his life.
And, you know, they were kind of weeping and there was a lot of feelings and heat, but hesaid, if, if Christ has really been raised from the dead, if Jesus really walked out of
(14:06):
that tomb,
And he really appeared to hundreds of people and he really, you know, like ate and drankwith his disciples and you know, all of these things.
And he really ascended to heaven.
If he really happened, everything's going to be okay.
Everything's going to be okay.
And I think in that moment, I just needed to hear that.
(14:27):
Anyway, so I share that story with you because I want you to kind of speak to that, tothat person who's maybe like me in, you know, in the car where
listening to a worship song or somebody's like, know, God never, you know, let's go of hispromises and like he is he's faithful to the end and he's never going to let you down.
And there are there's people who are listening who right now are thinking, but God's letme down.
(14:51):
So how do you how do you wrestle with that?
Yeah, it is so hard and I wish I had an easy answer, but there are no easy answers andthat's part of what I'm trying to speak into in this living in the tension and the
paradoxes of what I call, yeah, the paradox of the knowability of God.
(15:16):
And what I mean by that is we love that God is so knowable.
We can.
meet him and talk with him, we can hear his voice, we are his sheep, he is our shepherd,all that.
And we can walk by his spirit and have the spirit of God indwell within us, marvelous.
(15:38):
But equally, he's totally unknowable.
Like we cannot fathom, you know, his majesty, his thinking, we can't think any, you know,we can't understand that.
And so we live in this messy, difficult tension where many of us, myself included, thinkwe know God and we think we know how he's going to answer our prayers and take care of
(16:10):
things and what everything will be okay actually looks and feels like on the daily.
And unfortunately,
We just can't.
And it's annoying and it's frustrating and it's deeply painful.
But to that person who feels like they've been let down by God, I would have one questionand one encouragement.
(16:38):
One question is, is the way you feel let down because he hasn't done what...
you have specifically asked him to do and have you looked at what else he's done?
And I know that's the kind of trite Christian answer.
(16:59):
So people might be about to turn me off.
so my encouragement, my follow-up encouragement would be in this place of disappointment,anger even, resentment, bitterness towards God, I've been there, got the t-shirt to prove
it.
It's like, can we, rather than
shielding ourselves and turning into ourselves and turning away from God in that placebecause that's what we want to do.
(17:24):
He's not trustworthy.
I need to protect myself.
Can we in fact turn towards him and tell him how we feel and tell him we need to hear himand see him and feel him and know his comfort and his strength and get into the Psalms and
ride alongside David and the other psalmist.
(17:45):
You know, feel free to question his
and his providence and his goodness and his mercy and cry out to him but turn towards him,not away from him, chat to him.
He says, come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest.
And it's that kind of, as the message says, walk with me, talk with me, those that areexhausted and burnt out on religion.
(18:14):
learn the unforced rhythms of grace and live lightly and freely.
And that is that invitation.
Come on, it's going to be okay.
Can we lean into that?
But I know it's hard.
I don't have a X plus Y equals Z kind of answer.
No, yeah.
mean, and that I think is that speaks to something you talk about in the book, which isthat doubt walk of the doubt walk with God rather than walking away.
(18:41):
Can you want to speak to that a little bit about like what that?
you what does that look like on a practical level?
mean, I know you mentioned going into the Psalms and taking those things, but a lot oftimes, like this is an exercise in each and every day is going to look a little bit
different.
So for someone that might not be familiar with that, like, how does that work?
(19:02):
Yeah, I talk about doubt walking because it brings to mind again that verse where Jesussays, come to me and walk and talk with him.
And as we're in Holy Week, I imagine us walking and talking along the dusty roads leadingtowards Jerusalem as Jesus is going towards the cross and his destiny and all that he'll
(19:24):
do for us.
And so.
how do we do that?
How do we talk to God?
How do we chat with God?
When we're holding questions like, why did you answer her prayer and not mine?
And this doesn't feel good.
Are you sure you're good?
Because this, by my standards, is not what a good person, a loving person would do.
(19:44):
And so in the book, I lay out a conversation guide.
Because like you, I'm like, so what does that look like?
How do I actually do that?
And it follows the
deeply memorable acronym, CHAT, because my brain is very small and it needed somethingvery memorable.
And it just gives us a set of trailblazers to follow as we talk with God.
(20:09):
And I'm happy to share what those different...
Okay.
So...
The first thing is we consider the facts, the C, consider the facts.
And these are the facts of the circumstances that brought us to asking this question.
Maybe you've been struggling with infertility for years and it's deeply painful and you'rewondering where God is in that.
(20:37):
And so the circumstances are the kind of journalistic facts.
We've been trying to start a family for 10 years.
and we've prayed and prayed and nothing has happened and we don't have any children.
And then the age of chat is honor the story you're telling yourself.
(20:59):
And this is the real nugget.
And I feel like this is what Jesus wants to really have a conversation about with us whenwe pull up his celestial sofa and he sits down with a cup of tea with us because this is
the story that's
really resonating within us.
This is the one that says, it's because he doesn't love me enough, or I screwed up incollege, or it's because I'm not spiritual enough, or he's forgotten me, he's not
(21:31):
listening to me.
This is the story about ourselves.
And then, and in the book, I go through 15 to 20 questions and give specific prompts tohelp people answer.
those different, the consider the facts and honor the story.
(21:52):
And then we get to ask God what he has to say.
And this is where we say, well, God, what is it that you'd like me to know about me or youor understand or believe or shift or do?
And we're saying, what do you think about this Lord, about this story that I'm tellingmyself?
(22:13):
And then,
Because we've got to go back into everyday life.
I mean, it's nice to chat with God throughout the day, but we still need to go to work andpick up the kids and do the laundry and all those sorts of things.
And so it's, well, how can I team up with God moving forward in this area?
And so for me, that's how we have the conversation with God.
(22:38):
We consider the facts.
We honor the story we're telling ourselves.
We ask God what he has to say and we team up with him.
But I think there's also some, for some of us, there's some work we need to do beforethat, getting rid of the lies that stop us going to God.
And we've talked a bit about that.
Mm, man, that's so good.
(22:58):
Well, I think, you know, an important thing among all of this is one of the things youtalk about is this, you know, there's this legacy of doubting saints.
And so in a lot of ways, you retell a lot of the stories of some of our, you know,biblical heroes or some of the main characters who doubted.
(23:20):
And I'm curious, how does their story or stories
affect and change how we think about our own struggles in faith.
Yeah, I think it's really good to look at these people who we see as heroes of the faithand almost zero in on their struggle.
(23:44):
And often the struggle isn't always the prime story of what we're reading.
So think of Peter walking on water and he come, you know, they're all out in the boat andthey hear a voice off in the waves.
And Peter, I love Peter, he's so impulsive.
(24:05):
He's like Mr.
All in or all out.
He goes for it.
So he's like, okay, I'm gonna come to you Jesus.
And he steps out on the, he leaps over the side of the boat and goes towards Jesus.
And then when he starts to falter and he gets wet, and I tell this story and I'm imagininghim back in the boat.
(24:29):
And it says that all the other disciples start to worship.
And Jesus was like, why did you doubt?
Why didn't you have faith?
kind of, was me.
And I imagine him sitting there, sopping wet in his tunic and his sandals, maybe even hewent deep enough that his hair is wet and he is just feeling awful.
(24:54):
He gave it a go, it didn't work out.
He lost faith, if you like.
Jesus even said he didn't have enough faith.
And so he's sitting there working.
Everyone else is praising Jesus and worshiping.
And I'm like, but he's the one who got out of the boat.
He's the one who looked Jesus in the eye and walked on water.
(25:16):
No one else has walked on water apart from Jesus and Peter.
And so when we look at that, we think, how must he have felt?
He doubted.
And yet he's the rock.
He's the rock on which the church has been built.
And so when we look at these heroes of the faith and investigate their stories a littlebit more and see how loved and accepted and used by God they are, we can go, okay, I can
(25:50):
do this too.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, one thing that I love about this book is you've really kind of included a lot ofalmost like devotional type elements that invite people in to as exercises.
And so one of the things you do is you include prompts and exercises at the end of eachchapter that encourage readers to kind of mix these doubts and also with their joys into
(26:18):
like a fun joy and doubt soup.
And so, and you tell them to offer it to God.
Why is that so powerful as an image and why is that something that really helps people towork through those feelings of wrestling that they're doing?
Yeah, well I think holding the doubt and the questions and the confusion in tension withthe joy and the love and the faith that we do have is just such a healthy way of walking
(26:53):
our faith journey out about doubt walking.
And they can counteract one another and they can, the joy and the celebration and the
the gratitude that we can feel can help us see our doubts and questions differently.
They can help us talk about them with people more easily.
(27:16):
Cause the biggest lie we believe is I'm the only one who's doubting and nobody stands upin church and says, excuse me, hold on a sec.
Can you just, I'm not sure about that.
So yeah, I think walking and talking through this and we know brain research says that
when we are grateful, we see things differently.
(27:38):
We don't have to see things differently to be grateful.
We are grateful to see things differently.
And more research is coming out that when we offer that in an act of kindness and purpose,that that almost solidifies the work that the gratitude has done and we feel more
(27:59):
empowered and have more agency.
So when we are grateful,
And when we then do something with it and offer it maybe back in worship, that reallyhelps us to walk out our imperfect relationship with God.
(28:20):
I was a bit worried when I started to put all these different prompts and exercises andthings in the book because not everyone's a journaler, not everyone wants to be answering
questions.
So it's done in such a way that if you're a journaler,
You can journal away to your heart's content.
If you're not, you can just think about these questions.
But I still want to encourage people to do that because it's going through the motionsthat actually gets us to where we want to be.
(28:47):
Hmm, that's so good.
Well, as we kind of begin to wrap up our time, there was something that I wanted to dothat I think would be fun.
that's kind of a God can we speed chat rapid fire bonus round of questions.
And so just kind of I want you I got 10 questions.
(29:08):
And all I want you to do is just kind of tell me the first thing that comes to mind when Iask you this question.
Okay.
Are you ready?
There's no this
are we talking like deep theological questions or are you gonna ask me which color lipgloss I like?
No, don't overthink it.
This is very low stakes, Okay, question that kind of range and like from little silly tomaybe a little bit more on the serious.
(29:34):
So okay, so question number one is a Psalm, one of your favorite Psalms that never failsto gut punch you in the best way.
I'm afraid I'm a snippet kind of girl, so I do like sound, sound biting, but it would haveto just be some 23.
(29:56):
I know it's an oldie and a goodie, but it's just been top of the charts for so long.
I like it.
like it.
You know, the Psalms hit.
The Psalms hit.
actually in, you know, we do a chronological reading plan every year and we're, you know,in first and second Samuel where we're kind of jumping back and forth between the Psalms
and the last couple days it's been all Psalms.
(30:18):
And I'm telling you, like starting my day off all in Psalms versus like starting my dayoff in Judges is just, just hits a little different.
So.
It really does, and if you notice, what I love about the Psalms is if you look at thepattern of the the psalmist's write, you'll get this, my goodness, Lord, why is it
happening like this?
You've got to slay my enemies and, you know, where are you?
(30:39):
But I trust you, you are good.
But what about this, but what about that?
But I trust you, and it's like this back and forth, because they know that dance, thedoubt walking.
Yep, good.
Okay, question number two, and I thought this was a fun one.
When was the last time you laughed during a prayer and what happened?
(31:05):
think it was when I told God one of my plans and I was like, well, God, we could do thisand it could work out like this.
And then I was like, yeah, God, that's totally my idea.
That's totally me saying, Hey God, want to get in the passenger seat?
We're going for a really great ride.
So.
Yeah.
(31:26):
I definitely have had a couple moments in the last couple weeks where I've been prayingand then like my mind has wandered and I've like started to pray about something random
and I've literally said in the middle of my prayer like, I'm sorry, Lord, I got distractedthere for a moment.
Where was I?
Like, I just like...
I can tell you when we last laughed as a family when my husband was saying grace beforeEmil and our daughter, our middle daughter lives in New York, she's an actress.
(31:57):
so the four of us that were here, he was saying grace and rather than saying, you know, wepray for Sophie in New York, he says, and we remember Sophie, at which point.
The three of us all burst out laughing saying, she's not dead.
I mean, this isn't a kind of, and we remember those loved ones who can't be with us today,you know, so we kind of derailed things.
(32:22):
yeah, we always laugh during my kid whenever my kids pray like like my kids might well mydaughter not always but if my son's praying like he's nine like he's he's gonna say
something unhinged and you know, I just regularly I'm like, I feel like God actually maybelistens to his prayers a little bit more.
I don't have a theological backing for that but I just feel like his prayers are just soearnest and honest.
(32:45):
Especially when they mishear something and they think they've got it right.
I remember coming back from church one morning in London and James in the back, must havebeen like six or seven, said, mommy, I didn't know Jesus liked burgers.
(33:05):
I was like, really, darling?
Where did you get that from?
I haven't heard that Jesus loves burgers anyway, either.
He says, well, we sing about it.
We cast our burgers onto Jesus because he cares for us.
That is amazing.
I love that so much.
kids are the best.
(33:25):
Okay, question number three is what is a worship song that makes you cry every time youhear it, even if you're not sad?
It's I don't know what it's called.
I'm terrible with knowing what they're called, but it's the one with it's your breath inmy lungs Great are you Lord and the reason that makes me cry is?
Because both my mom and my sister died of lung cancer.
(33:48):
So I remember them struggling to breathe and Yeah, and my lungs are perfectly fine and soyeah that one
That's beautiful.
That's beautiful.
Okay, what is the most overused or like cliche Christian phrase that you would love to seeretired?
(34:15):
This isn't a phrase, it's a word.
Can I say just one word?
It's the word just.
Lord, we just pray, but we just want to do that.
We just, and I'm like, it almost diminishes what we think God is capable of.
And I'm like, no, we pray that your spirit would fall, that revival would come, thathealing would be done.
(34:41):
It's not not, I just, it's like almost.
God, if you're not busy.
So, I'd love to retire the word just.
that you say that because, so I'm in seminary right now and I mean, I'm a writer bynature.
like writing is not difficult for me, but I haven't, it's been a while since I've donelike academic writing.
(35:02):
And so that's been like exercising a muscle, but it's funny how when I was writing mybook, which is, you know, very much not academic.
something someone said to me was when you're done writing a particular section of whateverit is you're writing, whether it's a book or paper, go through and do searches for the
word just and the word that.
(35:24):
It's almost always the word just and the word that are not necessary.
They're like filler words.
Sometimes they are, but it's very rare that the word just and the word that are actuallynecessary.
And it's like, it's almost this, yeah, it's this filler word that gives us a break to thenthink about whatever the thing is next.
(35:48):
And I'm telling you, like, once you know that and you start to look in your own writing,you're like, yeah, I write that way more than I should and just way more than I should.
that's it.
Yes, amen.
Okay.
What is a doubt of your own?
that actually drew you closer to God.
(36:14):
I think, Molly, I think the biggest doubt was when I was going through cancer and wedidn't know whether I'd be okay.
And it was in my lymph nodes and all that kind of stuff.
And I was having chemo and radiation and surgery.
And for those who don't know me, mine was rectal cancer.
(36:36):
So I had an ostomy bag for a year.
I could walk and talk and poop in Target all at the same time.
great.
But the doubt was, don't think it'll be okay.
I don't think God's got this.
And actually, what came out of that wasn't when I knew that I was okay and therefore I waslike, actually it's okay.
(37:01):
So he was there and everything was okay.
It was more this leaning into him and saying, I remember Sophie, she was probably about...
11 or 12 at the time, looking me in the eye and saying, are you going to die, mommy?
And I said, well, one day, I hope not from this, but what I know is that God won't leaveus and everything's going to be okay with him.
(37:26):
then doubt crept in with that, will everything be okay?
And so actually drawing closer to him through all the treatment, I knew that whateverhappened, it would be okay.
it would be okay.
Whether I lived or died, whether, you know, I never saw my kids graduate middle school,let alone college and get married, it would be okay.
(37:51):
That's so good.
Okay, this is kind of a silly one.
But if you were on a texting relationship with God, what emoji would he send you all thetime?
trees, plants.
that.
Nature, I am a fresh air junkie.
I talk a lot about encountering God in nature and living wildly known and gonna be doing alot more of that in the coming months and years, because I've got a grant to do some
(38:22):
research and spiritual formation practices in nature.
So yes, happy things are plants, trees, flowers, animals.
That's such a good answer.
Okay, what is one piece of advice that you would give to 20 year old Nikki, who is maybekind of standing at the edge of her faith?
(38:44):
Well, 20 year old Nikki didn't really know the Lord.
I came to faith in the first year that we were married.
I would have said that I was Christian with a lower case C because I wasn't, you know, ifI had had to fill in a survey, I wasn't Muslim, Hindu, you know, atheist or, you know,
other, and I was English.
(39:05):
And so therefore I was Christian, but I didn't have.
a relationship really with God.
I felt spiritual up mountains and had labeled that God.
So my advice to that Nikki, I think would be to just go for it, to go for it and live lifeopen-hearted to God, to other people and to really lean into everything God has for her
(39:38):
because
I think she was a bit hesitant at that point.
That's good.
That's so good.
What is something about God that you used to doubt but you don't anymore?
Can you repeat that?
What is something about God that you used to doubt but you don't anymore?
(40:04):
Gosh, I think I used to doubt that he saw me all the time.
Either in...
kind of the pain and heartache, like, do you see this?
Do you see me?
Do you see my pain?
But also in the, think I can get away with it.
(40:25):
I don't think God's looking right now, kind of way.
So, and I don't doubt that at all.
I feel fully seen, fully known in a good way, not in a, he's watching, but you know, in agood way.
Yeah, that's good.
(40:45):
Okay, I got two more.
is the most surprising thing that you've discovered about God through doubting, throughwalking in doubt with him?
that he's not as fazed by our doubts as we think he is, and he's not as fazed by ourconcerns and our questions.
(41:07):
In fact, he welcomes them and he says, yeah, let's chat about them and let's draw closerand live in some mystery together.
It's gonna be fun.
Whereas I thought, it was like, no.
All right, well, that I think I know the answer to this last question, but that is, whatis your favorite spot to chat with God?
(41:31):
Yep.
outside.
It doesn't even have to be like in the mountains with this majestic view.
I can be sitting outside in our little townhouse on our postage size terrace with, youknow, one set of planters by me, but it's outside.
(41:51):
Yeah, that's so good.
Man, Nikki, this has just been such a joy.
So for people that would love to follow your work, to get your book, where can theyconnect with you and where can they get the book and all of that?
Where can they get all the things?
Well, all the things God Can We Chat is on GodCanWeChat.com and you can order it there oranywhere books are sold.
(42:12):
You can get the first three chapters for free there if you want to try before you buy.
I'm at NikkiHardy.com, I'm on Instagram, I'm on Substack and we'll be on Substack more andmore, living wildly known and helping people encounter God in nature.
And I also write and I speak.
and coach as well.
(42:32):
So all that's on my website.
Awesome.
Nikki, this has been such a pleasure.
Thank you so much for being here.
you're welcome.
It's been so fun.
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