E is for Everyone

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[music]
Hi, welcome backto Can't Shelve This,
the podcast where we hammer home
the importance of school libraries.
I'm Janette Derucki,
and I'm joined by my co-host,Leah Gregory-.

(00:21):
Hello, everyone.
and our producer, Ola Gronski.
Hi, everyone.
I'm so excited to be backwith you both,
but I wanted to start offthis episode by wishing you both
a very happy NationalSchool Library Month.
School librarians deservemore than a month to celebrate
all the work that they do.
They definitely do.
We will take what we can get.
I hope everyone's havinga great month.

(00:43):
I hope that everybodyhas co-workers and administrators
who are celebrating them this month-.
Me too.
because it's hardto celebrate yourself.
I hope that everybody out there knows
that it's School Librarian Month.
It's okay to just hang upa little sign in your library
that says it's SchoolLibrary Month, right?
Shameless self-promotion.
It's okay to just getyourself a little treat,

(01:04):
because you deserve it.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I am always down for a little treat.
When this episode airs,
we will have missedSchool Librarian Day.
That was April 4th.
We are now in the midstof National Library Week.
Hopefully a lot of libraries
across the countryhave exciting things happening,
including school libraries.
I love the energythat National Library Week brings,

(01:26):
because everybody--
I think especially this year,
a lot of people are remindingeveryone they know
of all the great thingsthat libraries do.
I love National Library Week,
because it's sometimeseasy to forget.
Reminding peoplewho you don't typically see
in the library about libraries,

(01:47):
like those non users,and focusing on those.
I was recentlyat a medical appointment.
My doctor, making small talk,is like, oh, what do you do?
Then I'm hit with the whole,
how do I explainwhat a library system
is to peopleoutside of the library world?
Then after that, he's going on and on
about how libraries are amazing.

(02:07):
My kids are such avid readers.
It's so cool.
Then at the end of thatconversation, he's like,
but librariesare really well-funded though, right?
I was like, oh.
I think that was justa moment where it hit me,
where Janette talks a lot aboutgetting out of this echo chamber.
We can preach to librariansall day and night, and they get it.

(02:30):
I think reaching those outside peoplewho are supporters
in theory, but still needthat extra knowledge about
what is actually going on.
Hopefully for National Library Week,
School Library Month,you all reach our non-regular users
and help promote what we offer.
It's really hard to advocatefor yourself

(02:52):
outside of the libraryspace sometimes.
This is also a great moment for us
because of the challenges
that our librariesare facing right now.
In particular, there is a lotof discourse about libraries
and there's a lotof opportunity to set
the record straight about fundingand the way that they operate
and really to promoteand share all the work that we do.

(03:14):
There still are peopleout there who say,
why do you need librariesif you have Google?
I was like, please do notput Google in charge
of your information retrieval.
There is a lotof that mindset out there.
We're fightingall of those things every day.
National Library Week givesyou a great opportunity
and an excuse to toot your own horn
and talk about librariesand the great things that we do.
I say librarians and peoplewho love libraries

(03:37):
and people like uswho work for the system,
we have to be missionaries
in a way and go outand spread the good word
because a lot of peoplehave never heard of it.
Go forth and spreadthe library news, folks.
Go forth.
Before we get into today's topic,
I do have one quick question for you.
This just came uprecently when I was having

(03:58):
a conversation with someone online,actually on Bookstagram.
Does it bother eitherof you when a publisher changes
the way a series or cover artlooks in the middle of a series?
There's people on both sides of this.
I'm like, this is somethingthat we need to debate.
I only care if it's a box set

(04:20):
and the heightsare a little bit different.
If I'm buying themone at a time and they've changed
the cover because now there's a movie
and the later oneshave the movie poster--
Don't even get mestarted on movie art covers.
Not a fan.
I feel like there needs to be a rule
that if you're in the middleof a series and you release

(04:40):
a movie and you want to releasea book with the movie cover,
that's fine, but you also need
to go back and make one that fitswith the series artwork
that you've already published.
You can't do that.
It's not fair.
[laughter]
It's not fair.
Just full disclosure, it doesbother me when the size changes.

(05:01):
Gee, I couldn't tell.
I know, right?
Here's me askingthis question because I'm like,
I need people on my side.
Tell us how you really feel.
Don't worry. I will.
Unfortunately for you.
I was reading a series
and I'm trying to even rememberwhat it was.
It was coming out in trade paperback.
Then all of a sudden the publisherdecided mass market was,

(05:22):
it was only going to comeout in mass market,
which, okay, the older I get,
I cannot read a massmarket paperback anymore.
The print is way too small.
I was like, okay,but now the books on my shelf,
we're going to all not match.
I either needed to re-buy everything
in mass market, or I had to decide
that I was justgoing to stop purchasing

(05:43):
the books in that series.
Which actually,as a marketing person,
this is now-- I'm like,this is a marketing ploy.
This is how they getyou to re-buy all of the things
that you already boughtto make more money.
[dogs barking]
My dogs are barking. Sorry.
Very strong opinions on this topic.
Yes. They strongly feel
that all of the coversshould stay the same.

(06:05):
I feel like that's the samething with all the special editions.
I understand marketingto exclusive editions, like Barnes &
Noble has their exclusive
that has an extra chapteror whatever.
We could get into a wholeequity discussion
around that type of thing.
How many specialeditions do you really need
to own or do you want to buy?
They do different coverart and different end papers

(06:27):
and all the thingsthat are different.
I'm so sorry.
You keep making special editions.
They start feeling less special.
Exactly.
If there's 10 special editions,none of them are really special.
Have you ever collectedspecial editions?
Do you have a book you loveenough to buy that many times?
Let's say that I love a series.
For instance, I loved Mary Poppins.

(06:48):
I went and bought a specialset of a special edition
of that set so that I could put
that on my shelfand it looks beautiful.
Alas, my four seriesof Bridgerton behind me.
I will say actuallyMaggie Stiefvater's Raven Boys, -
The Raven Cycle?
the Raven Cycle series.
Maggie Stiefvater is alsoan incredible artist.

(07:10):
She did come out with--I don't think it was a box set.
I'm trying to think of what I have.
I think it was justa new one with a cover
of her illustrated artwork in it,and so I got that.
Now, that would be cool.
See, that really is special.
She released tarot cardswith the artwork from the series,
which of course I snagged.
I'm more interestedin artwork in that way,

(07:32):
but not necessarily the movies.
It is satisfyingwhen you have a beautiful--
I'm lookingat your Bridgerton box sets.
-Not very beautiful.-That is very satisfying.
It is nice when they all match
and they lookso pretty lined up side by side.
I will say, more sothan special editions,
I will purchase the European covers.
I don't know what it is aboutthe American publishers

(07:54):
and the artwork that they choose,
or maybe it's justthe trends in America.
They are very differentthan particularly
the UK version of books.
They usually haveextremely beautiful artwork
and it will be way more detailed.
I'm more likelyto seek out those types
of versions and editions, as opposed
to buying just a special edition,
it would have to bereally, really great.

(08:17):
Although I guess I fellin this Bridgerton hole.
As an aside,my daughter and her boyfriend went
to a party over the weekendand they met
the person who doesmusic for Bridgerton,
which I love the musicfor Bridgerton.
Oh, everyone does.
I do too.
Those playlists are so amazing,all the soundtracks.
That was pretty cool.
Now I'm realizing,as we talk about this,

(08:38):
the reason that I don't have strongfeelings about
this is that I am almost100% eBooks nowadays.
It doesn't affect me as much.
Janette has talked about how being
a reader and being a bookcollector are different things.
I think that's whyI have opinions on them,
but they're not so strongbecause I don't buy a lot of books.

(08:58):
I don't buy a lot of booksto have on the shelf.
Shockingly, when I go to a bookstore,
even if I have a gift card,
it's so much pressure to figure out
what I want to buybecause I don't want
to buy something I haven't readyet because I'm like,
I'll get it from the library.
That's what I do.
I really need to lovea book to go out and buy it.

(09:19):
Usually I'll buyit because I know of someone
I want to give it to to readso we can talk about it.
I think that's a bigpart of the discussion
is if you actually collect books.
There are very specificseries that I like to collect.
I am mostly a series reader.
A lot of the booksI buy are series books.

(09:40):
To your point, Ola,if I'm going to share a book,
I think about like the recentHunger Games release,
the Haymitch's story.
I did buy a physical copyof that one because I already
had all the Hunger Games books.
Also because I knew that several
of my family memberswere going to read it
and I was definitelynot going to hand
over my Kindle to someoneand be like, here you go.

(10:03):
I will never get it back.
Handing over that book,
it's just much easierto share that way.
It's always great catchingup with both of you,
but I think it's time to diveinto this episode's topic.
Today, we're tackling something
that's really sensitive and heavy,
but it's very important,especially in the library world.
We're going to talk about equity,
diversity,inclusion and accessibility
in school libraries today,or as we like to call it, EDIA.

(10:27):
We're talking about it specificallyat this moment in time
and with all the changesthat are being made
under the current administration,
particularly to educationand to libraries.
To discuss the many facetsof this topic,
we've invited two guests to join us.
First is a local schoollibrarian who we'll be referring
to as A to protect their identity.
Welcome, A.

(10:48):
Hi. Good to be here.
We're also joined by RAILSmember engagement specialist,
Jessica Silva.
Hi, Jessica.
Hi. So happy to be here.
Thanks for joining us today.
Before we get going with really get
into the meat of our discussion,
we always to start off each episode
with a little bitof a warm up for you.
We're going to askyou the very hard-hitting question

(11:08):
of which best describes you.
Would you consider yourselfto be an eBook reader,
a physical book reader,or an audio book reader?
A, do you want to go first?
-Sure. I definitelyprefer physical books.
For some reason,I don't know, it doesn't stick
in my brain when I readit as an eBook.
Audio books,unfortunately, distract me.

(11:30):
I can barely listen to podcasts.
I try very hard.
I try very hard,but I get distracted so easily.
I can power through a podcast,
but an audio book,it doesn't stick in my brain.
I am definitelya physical print person.
I too get distracted easily.
I feel you.
How about you, Jessica?
I would say pan.

(11:51):
I like all types of--
Depends on the story?
Yes, I really depends.
I would put eBooks last.
I love physical booksand I really love audio books.
I listen a lot while I'm driving
to site visits and things like that.
That's nice.
I'm definitely team getsdistracted during audio books.
That's probably the lastplatform that I use for stories,

(12:14):
but it is helpfulif I'm on a road trip
by myself and things like that.
To help our listeners getto know you a little bit better
before we begin our conversation,do you mind sharing
how both of you gotinto school libraries?
I originally startedoff like many people,
in a very different field.
I was originally going to be
a translator and interpreter.

(12:35):
As I was living that life,I was also doing
a lot of local queer organizingon the side bilingually,
and I was getting really burnt outfrom translation and interpretation.
I loved that community aspect,
and so I decided to lookinto other professions
that really had that community work.

(12:55):
I'd always lovedreading and research,
and so I sawlibrarianship as an option.
I moved back to the US.
Then I was starting my MLIS, I worked
at a public library for a while,
I worked at archives for a while.
Then I got a jobas a school library assistant.
I was like, ooh, this is my niche.
It was so rewardingto support young people

(13:16):
as they were figuring themselves out
and helping them growinto curious and critical thinkers.
I stayed on and I got my teaching
credential and didmy student teaching,
and then got hiredas a school librarian.
I've been doingthat for the past few years.
Wow. You have suchan interesting background.
That's amazing.Jessica, how about you?
My dad would take meto the library all the time.

(13:39):
I was a big reader, big library head.
I started reading really early,before I even went to school.
I was just in the cornera lot reading.
Always loved the library.
I graduated from collegea year early and I thought,
what am I going to do?
I applied to gradschool for library science,

(14:00):
because I had writtenin my diary at 15,
oh, I'm going to be a librarianmaybe at my high school,
which I did end up doing.
Which is really cool.
Manifestation works.
I was in my MLIS program.
I got a school librarian jobat the Austin International School.
At the time,I didn't realize, in Texas,

(14:22):
you have to also be teachercertified and teach for two years.
I did that later.
Had a great first library job.
My first library was in a closet.
That was a really uniquestory that I like to tell.
Here I am now.
Jessica, I also got my teachingcredential after my MSLIS.

(14:46):
You're in good company.
That's a really great wayto point out too,
that the school librarianlicensure is so varied across states.
If you're not in Illinois or Texas,
you want to make surethat you're looking
at your state'slicensure requirements
to see what is requiredbefore you get on that path.
You don't want to be surprised,like I was by that.

(15:07):
I very much was.
When I realized,oh, to work in public schools,
I'd have to do more,an alternative certification program.
Then I taught kindergartenfor two years, so you can't hurt me.
I've always been an elementaryschool librarian.
My last five years in the schoollibrary was at my alma mater.

(15:29):
I can't imaginewhat it would be like to work
in the school libraryat my high school.
I feel like I would be gettingflashbacks in like a bad way.
Right? Same.
I'm like, do you still havethe same furniture?
I don't know. Probably not.
Okay, you guys.
You know I visita lot of schools, right?
My alma mater,my high school is in our territory.
I went to visit my alma mater,which is now a middle school.

(15:50):
They've movedit down to a middle school.
I went to visit the librarian.
She's like,"Are you having flashbacks?"
I go, "I have to be 100% honest.
I never set foot in this librarywhen I was in high school.
[laughter]
That's so funny.
I'm hopingeach of you would be willing
to talk a little bitabout your connection
to equity and diversity work,either your personal experience
or professional as a leadinto the discussion

(16:12):
that we're going to have today.
Just wondering, how you gotstarted being more involved
and what that experiencehas been like?
For me, being an out queerand trans school librarian
and educator, that is somethingfor me that is so intertwined.
Especially to usas somebody who really cares

(16:33):
for and supports all of my students,I truly believe
that you cannot take it apartfrom school librarianship.
I have been involvedwith a lot of different types
of organizing throughout my life,
both in school capacitiesand outside of schools.
I think for me,entering into school librarianship,

(16:54):
that was somethingthat was already very present
and salient to me.
I feel like as I've grownas a school librarian,
I've just gotten deeperand deeper into that work.
It's somethingthat I am very passionate about
because I believethat all students deserve
a space at schoolwhere they can be celebrated

(17:14):
and seen and supported.
The library is sucha perfect place for that.
That's why I really wantedto do this episode
and also why I decidedto be anonymous for this,
because this work is so important,
which is why it is currentlyunder attack right now
in the political sphere.

(17:35):
We see across the US,marginalized teachers,
particularly right now,trans educators are being targeted.
That is why I chose to be anonymous
for this episodefor my personal safety,
because there's beenso many reports of doxxing,
and also why I believeit is imperative to speak out
and to talk about this.

(17:56):
I completely agree.
It's a really difficult timeto be someone
who doesn't conformto the social constructs
that are expectedby our society as of late.
It sounds like you have a lot
of very personaland professional ties
to this type of work.
It's great that you're willingto be here to tell your story.
How about you, Jessica?
Do you have anythingyou'd like to add?

(18:18):
For me, I grew up on the borderof Texas and Mexico.
I think that experience,and my dad is white,
my mom is Mexican American,I think it lends
itself to really understandingreally diversity
because you're partof a place that's -
they say, ni de aquí, ni de allá,not from here and not from there.

(18:38):
Borders are really liminal,special spaces.
I think that's had a lotof impact on my career
as a librarian and then serving
that communityas well when I was back
there and workingwith those students.
I also got really involvedin my professional organization.
I was the Texas LibraryAssociation equity,

(18:58):
diversity, and inclusion co-chair.
Then I was also the co-chairat Austin Community College
as a faculty librarian right
when SB 17 got passed in Texas,
which meant that no EDI workcould be done in higher education,
which is crazy because it's collegestudents who are all over 18.

(19:19):
Especially in a community college,ACC is also an HSI,
so a Hispanic-serving institute.
I want to be able to practicecritical librarianship.
I think that's important for usas librarians
and for our studentsand our patrons to be able to visit
a space that is reflective of them
and their values and understands them
and gives them dignityand respect that they deserve.

(19:42):
I love that, your phrase,not from here and not from there,
that's just really evocative to me.
I always saywhen I'm talking about this,
my favorite sayingis that the librarians make room
on the shelf for everyone's story.
I feel like
that's where you bothare coming from,
making room on the shelffor everyone's story story.
That's one of the questionsI wanted to ask, if you don't mind,

(20:04):
and you both have spoken abouthaving personal ties to this work.
Are you able or willing to sharewhat it's been like for you
not seeing yourselves in the library?
How that evolution of literature
and materials has changed over time,
because I think backto when I was growing up,
there was definitelynot the diversification
of collections like we have today,

(20:24):
or this awareness or intenttowards making sure
that we're representingthe communities that we serve.
I think for me,it wasn't until college
where I really found literature
that described the queerand trans experience.
There are plentyof other parts of my identity,
especially as a whiteperson that were represented

(20:46):
in the literaturethat I had growing up.
Specifically for my genderand sexuality,
it really wasn't until collegethat I found books
that described my experience,and they were life-changing.
We've seen the Cooperative Center
for Children's Book statistics.
It's still not great.
We still have a long ways to go.

(21:07):
Still, there has beenso many strides,
and I do see so many studentsnow who are finding themselves
in literature that simply didnot exist when I was growing up.
I always think about RudineSims Bishop's windows,
mirrors, and doors.
I think only 7% of Latinas holda graduate degree.
The number of those people

(21:28):
that are in libraryspaces is even less.
Even in Texas,the leadership in libraries
or the representationof the organizations
as a whole, predominantly white,
predominantly notfrom the Valley or El Paso,
and especially El Paso,
because it's a lot furtherfrom Central Texas.
I would always be like,can we have a meeting

(21:49):
in El Paso so that the bookscould come to us?
Just thinking about representation.
I think that's why I decidedI wanted to become more involved.
It was nice to be able to showmy students like,
you can accomplish your goals,
you can travel, you can do all this,
and you can give backto your community.
Because I was hopefullya living example

(22:12):
for them of like what you could do.
It's really important for studentsto be able to see
the humanity of librarians as well.
Libraries are alreadyreally gatekept spaces.
The more that you can showthem that we're human,
that we're not hushing everybody,and that we're inclusive,

(22:33):
and we welcome them to those spaces,
and they're not just--
libraries are not justfor one type of person.
There's no requirementfor entry to a library.
Exactly.
So many people believe that there is,
or that they can't goin because they're not well educated,
or they can't goin because they can't read very well.
Nobody should ever feelthat they can't go into a library.
One of the things I loveabout Jessica's answer

(22:55):
is that it really driveshome how intertwined
all of this is, your everyday life,
your library experience,the materials,
librarianship as a whole.
It's very hard to discussany of this in isolation.
It all touches some other aspector facet of someone's existence.
It's very complex.

(23:16):
This is making me think of that
Fobazi Ettarh's conceptof vocational awe.
Also, the mythof the neutral professional
was an articlethat I read in my MLIS,
along with vocational awe.
They totally reframed that for me.
Libraries for a very long timewere segregated spaces.
I think that there are peoplewho are really trying

(23:37):
to do the work to fulfill the mission
of what they purportthemselves to be,
which is equitable placesto access knowledge.
I think that there's stilla long way to go,
and that it is soimportant because media
has such a huge role in our lives.
It shapes who we are.
It shapes the possibilitiesof what we can be and know and do.

(24:02):
I take my responsibilityvery seriously
as somebodywho can provide that access,
and who is in a positionto either help
or hinder accessto knowledge or representation.
For me, that's somethingthat I really think a lot about
in what am I doing in my space

(24:22):
to truly make it a spacewhere students
of all different typesof identities and intersections
of those identities can be welcome.
I think you touched perfectly on one
of the main reasonswhy we're doing this episode
and addressing this topic.
That's that we wantto support school librarians
and help them navigatewhat's happening

(24:43):
around this topic right now.
It's a difficult time,and we recognize
that librarians might be scared
to continue championingEDIA in their libraries.
You're not really surewhat's going on.
The other one is just addressing
some of the major changes I mentioned
before with regardto education and libraries

(25:03):
that have been brought aboutby a flurry of executive orders.
I want to mentionjust a couple of those,
just so that we'reall on the same page
with regardto what we're talking about.
There were two thatspecifically identified
or targeted EDIA in schools.
One was the endingradical indoctrination
in K-12 schooling, which calls
for the Departmentof Education to find
ways to cut funding for programsthat support LGBTQ+ issues.

(25:28):
It insinuatesthat there's currently anti-American,
subversive, harmful,and false ideologies in the system.
The other was the defendingwomen from gender ideology,
extremism, andrestoring biological truth
to the federal government,that's a very long title,
sorry about that, which was intendedto rescind documents
that include guidancearound LGBTQ+ issues for education.

(25:51):
Those are, like I said,specifically targeting EDIA.
Then there were twoalso that are intended
to reshape schools and libraries,
which is the executiveorder dissolving
the Department of Education,which is titled
Improving Education Outcomesby Empowering Parents,
States, and Communities.
That divides up the responsibilitiesof the Department
of Education and reassigns them
to other government agencies,and then places

(26:13):
the primary responsibility
for educational standardson each state.
The second one is one I knowwe've all been talking about
a lot at RAILS, where I work.
And HLS.
Yes, which is the reduction
of the Institute of Museumand Library Services.
That executive order is called
Continuing the Reductionof the Federal Bureaucracy.
That one was released on March 14.

(26:35):
The way that impacts school libraries
in Illinois is through its funding
for the Illinois State Library.
Funding from the IMLS is about10% of the state library's budget.
The Illinois State Library providesgrants to schools annually,
mostly through the schooldistrict library grant program.
Those are four executive orders
I specifically thoughtapplied to this discussion.

(26:55):
I don't knowif you all are thinking of anything
in addition to thatyou would like to mention.
There is a website launched
by the US Departmentof Education called EndDEI,
which is essentiallyyou can put in a school district
and just type out whateveryou feel is taking place
at a school that is related to "DEI".

(27:18):
Essentially a snitch linefor people to report schools
that they believe are engaging
in diversity, equity, and inclusion,
which when you say it like that,it's just wild.
Crazy.
Because it is,because that is where we are.
One of the thingsI'll note about that portal

(27:38):
is I went in and lookedover it pretty extensively.
A lot of the languageon there is a bit confusing
or misleading to me as a librarian,
simply because it points out things
that are already against the law,
like discrimination basedon race and gender.
That's already illegal.
You would hope that peoplewere reporting school districts
that were doing that.

(27:59):
That's not something that's new.
I guess that also begsthe question of what's the difference
between the lawand an executive order?
What's the intent of each?
The goal is an executiveorder is designed
to essentially - thinking aboutit if you were a corporation,
this would be like a memo
from your CEO to the entireorganization about
how you're going to runyour organization.

(28:21):
It does not supersede the law,
which is going to be reallyimportant in the discussion
that we're having,because we do have some laws
in Illinois that we need to consider
in the context of this conversation.
I would like to prefacethis by saying
that we recognize there are a lotof sides of this issue,
and some have become partisantalking points even,
and that we're unlikelyto change anyone's mind,
but it's important to us

(28:43):
to support schoollibrarians as they attempt
to navigate this new territory
and the way that it intersectswith our profession.
I am hearing from school librarians
who are just really scaredto do their daily job.
Like what do I do?
Can I do this?
Am I going to get in trouble?
Am I going to get fired?
I find that even the ones who profess
to be on the other sideof the political spectrum,

(29:05):
they support their kids.
That's why I findit so hard to believe
that this portal even exists,because I think everybody who works
in education,a good majority of them, care about
the individual kids that they see.
They would never do anythingto hurt any child,
but they don't realize, I guess,that these executive orders

(29:29):
and these portals and everything else
that's coming down is hurtful,
even though they may not thinkof it that way,
but it is very hurtfuland very scary, and very sobering,
I guess is the word.
I think you'll findeven a lot of people
in this space whosupport equity, diversity,
and inclusion workare also proponents
of educational reform.

(29:50):
Most of us would agreethat change is not bad.
We always embrace change
as long as it is withthe best of intents,
and then it has to be to the benefitof the students.
That's where a lotof the questions are coming
in here with regardsto librarianship.
I would love to hear your feelings
on how you think this intersects

(30:10):
with the schoollibrary space right now,
because I think that it's creatinga challenge for librarians
to make sure that they are serving
the needs of all of their studentsand they are making sure
that their identities are represented
in the library in a way
that is helpful to themand supportive.
I think sometimes people think,I'm not being exclusive.

(30:33):
Are you being inclusive?
If you're having conversationsabout if someone's identity
or self even exists, that's violence.
That conversation isn't just,
I don't know-- sureif anyone's watched Adolescence,
but the whole pointis all of these things add up
to being violence and exclusive.

(30:54):
The more that we canas librarians focus
on being inclusive, I think for me
that meant every singleone of my displays included books
that were queeror had queer characters.
I had a "trans people belong"
sticker righton my door in plain view
so that it's very obvious.
I got the GLSEN rainbow Library,

(31:15):
which for those schoollibrarians out there,
if you just look it up,you can sign up for them
to send books to your school,
and they sendyou a whole set of books.
All you have to do is saythank you to them
for sending them to your school.
They're free.
Even in my digital spaces as well.
Think about that.
Think about what your digital spacesays about your library,
as well as your physical space.

(31:36):
For me, that alsomeant having everything
in English and in Spanish.
That's a great,easy way that you can be inclusive
to people in your library.
Those are just a few,
obviously actionablesteps that you can take.
I'd also saywe should include justice
with the equity,diversity, and inclusion
so that giving kids agencyto be change makers

(31:58):
and thinking about empoweringthem and giving them agency.
That's a great point.
To your point earlier, Leah,
I feel like in my experiencewith education, unfortunately,
I have not had the same experience
because I've had educatorsthat I've either witnessed
as a student or as a colleaguewho have purported themselves

(32:21):
to say that they care,but then they go and they discipline
their black studentsmore than their white students.
They persistentlymisgender other students.
They make negative commentsabout disability.
I think that it'san ethical imperative
for us as people who are chargedwith protecting young people

(32:43):
to be doing that reflection work
and to be bringingour colleagues in who maybe
are unintentionallyor who unfortunately sometimes
are intentionally makingour institutions more exclusive.
Also to be thinking aboutthe ways that exclusivity
and injusticeare really baked into schools,

(33:04):
into our curriculum.
When thinking about navigating
all of the executive ordersand changes, I'm reminded
of the library and its response
to the patriarch where peoplestarted shredding records
so that they could not be usedto harm our communities.
As school librarians,I've been thinking a lot about,

(33:26):
because I've had my catalogweaponized against me
before with peoplemaking false claims
of pornographyin the library and being told
to search up Sex and Destiny and seewhat comes up.
We all know that that's a fraughtsearch, but we've seen
Department of Defense schoollibrarians be directed
to search their catalogsfor "gender ideology".

(33:51):
I've been thinking a lot about,
in my actual catalog,what is the true benefit
of identity-based subject headingsright now in this current moment?
Is that going to impedeaccess to my students?
Is that going to make it easierfor titles to get censored?
Is that going to make it easier

(34:13):
for students to findand locate those titles?
We know the harm of thingslike stickering LGBTQ books,
how that at first glancemight seem like it provides access,
but in reality, it preventsthose books from being checked out.
Those are other thingsthat I have been thinking a lot about
because we have an ethical imperativeto support our students.

(34:36):
Right now, that can looklike changing how our policies
and proceduresthat we might've had in place
for a long timecould ultimately be weaponized
against us, be weaponizedagainst our students.
In this instance of subject headings,for example,
I'm not talking about self-censorship

(34:56):
because that is somethingthat I'm strongly against.
I'm talking about protectingaccess to valuable materials
because it's life-changing to seea kid-- I've had kids say,
I didn't even know gay books existed.
They are 14.
I've even had one ofmy superintendents
tell me a bookthat I recommended to him
was the first time he'd ever seenhimself represented in a story.

(35:20):
He was well into his 40s,and there's such power in that.
I think unfortunately,
people recognize the powerof access to knowledge.
Right now, censorship is drastically
on the riseand we're seeing dog whistles
of things like, for example,
gender ideologyis a transphobic dog whistle.

(35:43):
It's having exceedinglynegative impacts.
We have already lostway too many youth,
even just in a little way to suicidefollowing these executive orders.
I can't tell you even justthe countless hours
that students have spentcrying to me personally about
the impacts of this policy.

(36:04):
Yes, how can you hearall of that and not do something.
I recently had someone tellme that the individuals continue
to exist whether you acknowledgethem or not, and how damaging
the lack of acknowledgementcould potentially be.
I think you're seeing that
specifically in what you mentioned
with the suicide ratesand then the mental health crisis

(36:24):
is going to continueto expand and grow
in light of all of these things.
Belonging is such an essential part
of who we are,regardless of who you are.
You have your own identity,
you have your thingsthat you acknowledge
and recognize aboutyourself that make you belong
to specific groups or things
that you seekin experiences that you have.

(36:47):
I think that's really important.
We can't really makelight of the impact
that that has on people.
Specifically in the librarywith regard
to connectingto materials and resources.
I want to touchon something that you said, A,
though about subject headings.
This is something that has become
a big talking pointin library spaces.
That is this ideathat you would alter

(37:07):
your collection records
in order to makethese items irretrievable
or to hide them in a sensefrom some of these efforts
to root out and eliminatethose items from collections.
There have been a coupleof what I keep
calling forbiddenwords lists circulating.
The most recent one I saw
was from the NationalScience Foundation.
It was on a website talkingabout their grant process.

(37:30):
It was basically, don't listany of these words in your grant
application or it'll get flagged.
One of the words was actually women.
I was like, think about that.
Not typically even oneof the more controversial parts
of this topic,but something as commonplace
as the term "women" was on this list.

(37:51):
I feel like a lotof librarians are trying
to navigate these landmines.
I wanted to get your opinion,you and Jessica,
as to whether you do feellike this is a form of censorship.
If you're going to remove those tags,
you are in a sensemaking items harder to find.
Whether that'sfor good intent or bad,
it really depends on the individual.

(38:14):
I think for sureit is a form of censorship.
I change a lot of my subjectheading tags already
because I find that we--
I do a lot of copy catalogingas many school librarians do,
but I find that even the subjectheadings that arrive,
especially that relate to identity,
are not how studentswould describe themselves.

(38:35):
Therefore it's not servingthat purpose.
Something that I already do is tryand make them more accurate.
I think that right now
it is being forced essentiallyto change them
so that they don't getdiscovered by outside agents.
That is censorship.
In our spaces, we can make sure
that those materialsare still discoverable by our users.

(38:57):
I've been wrestlingwith this a lot because it's like,
do you make it easier to findin your physical space and harder
in your catalog,or do you make it easy to find
in your catalog then it getscensored by a group such as Moms
for Liberty, who throughoutthe United States has been very,
very active in censorship efforts?

(39:17):
What's the best alternative?
For me, I'm always like,
what is going to makeit so that my students
have access to these materials?
In the end, I'm there to serveand support my students.
Whatever I can do to make sure
that these materials don't getpulled from my shelves,
that's what I'm going to endup doing, if that makes sense.

(39:40):
It is a really complicated topic.
I think just our jobsare to connect people to information
and meet their information needs.
If your information needsare more about your identity,
then that's whatwe're going to help you find.
If you want to learn more aboutwhatever subject, that's the goal.

(40:00):
I think also,if you have the advantage
of knowing your collection
really well and knowing your students
very well and your patrons,and who you serve,
I think the goal should be
to be able to do reader's advisory.
I know that's hard,
but in a way that you can recommendtitles to kids.
I use Reddit a lot, to be honest,for a book recommendation.

(40:21):
I don't know that I was relyingas heavily on subject headings.
I know that that's alsoa controversial thing to say,
but also a lot of those are rootedas is the Dewey Decimal System
in oppressive library standards.
I filled out a surveythe other day about the way
that Latino peopleare represented in the LOC.

(40:42):
I know this is for a lotof different things
that the Gulf of Mexico and a lotof different things
that they're changing aboutthe way that we search for things.
I think also really knowingwho you serve
can help you meettheir information needs as well.
That's a good point.
I want to point outto Jessica's point about
the Gulf of Mexico,librarians are not strangers

(41:03):
to subject headings changing.
Language evolves,terms change over time,
things fall out of favor,replaced by something
that is more appropriateor more prevalent.
It's not we have a problemwith change.
It's just when it's harmful.
I was just thinkingbecause when I left my library,

(41:23):
I had collections,you could create collections.
I have a lot of them because I loveto do that kind of thing.
Like, "If you were interestedin this, try this collection."
I had an LGBTQ+ collection
because those are the onesthat kids wouldn't necessarily ask me
for or feel comfortable asking.
At the time, when I left,there turned out

(41:45):
to be a book challenge aboutdrama by Raina Telgemeier
because of the same sexrelationship barely depicted in it.
I was thinking at the time,this mom has no idea
that there is an entirecollection of other books like this.
In this day and age,I could see that being like,
"Okay, I'm goingto print that collection
and have it at the desk

(42:06):
so they can seeit if they want to look it up.
Maybe not make it available online
where anybody can look at it."
It's unfortunate that we haveto be thinking like that.
I also had privacy coversavailable for my students.
Those little stretchytextbook covers.
I just had them by the checkoutand if somebody wanted to take that.
When I would deliverholds to students,

(42:27):
I would wrapit in a coloring sheet just
to have a little bitof-- I don't know.
A little privacy.
Yes.
When you go to the public library
and the holds are covered,I appreciate that.
I went to pick up a holdonce a long time ago,
and I was picking upsome terrible bodice-ripper.
Romance or something.
Then the librarian goes,
"I didn't knowyou read books like this."

(42:49):
I'm like, "Oh my God."
I felt so shamed.
"Hold your judgmentat the door, ma'am."
That is, it's so importantto have privacy.
To let people readwhat they want to read.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Not comment on it.
Yes. Thinking about our catalogs.
I feel like it goes handin hand with digital privacy,
especially with young people.

(43:10):
I'm thinking like rightnow I work in a middle school.
That's a time where studentsare really exploring
a lot of topics relatedto identity or even mental health.
I had a student at a previousschool who was trying
to check out a book about self-harm,
but was very, veryself-conscious about it,
understandably,because it's a very delicate subject
and without somebody who is thinking

(43:33):
of those considerationsor maybe a student is even afraid
to search for those topicsin the catalog themselves
because someone could watch them.
There's a physicalrecord of their search.
Those are all thingsto consider as well
when we think abouthow public catalogs are,
and what search functions they have,

(43:55):
and whether or not what we're doingis impeding access,
whether or not we are awareof it at first.
Yes. I thinkit's important to remember, too,
professionally, our ethicsare that we serve our populations
in an unbiased,non-discriminatory way,
which means accessto all information equally.

(44:15):
Whatever that accesslooks like will be different
for each studentpopulation potentially.
Making sure that you protectthe privacy of the people
who are accessing the materials.
I think that's a really great point.
We're not going to really talkabout this law today.
I wanted to mention it in the contextof what we're talking about
with regard to hidingmaterials in your collection

(44:35):
and censorship is Public Act 103-100,
which is the Illinois bookbanning bill.
That really precludesyou from removing
books from your collectionon the basis of religious
or political ideology.
You really need to think twicebefore you are limiting access
to those materialssimply out of fear.

(44:56):
Know that the lawin Illinois protects you if you want
to leave that in your collection.
This is, again, where I thinkthe difference between the law
and an executiveorder is a big difference.
Having a strong collectiondevelopment policy
and things like if a bookis challenged,
it can't be challengedagain for five years.
There are a lot of things you can do
with a really strong collection,
deselection,and reconsideration policy

(45:17):
that can really make sure
that you're taking careof yourself and your students.
When I get calls right now
and people are like, "What do I do?"
My recommendation is always have
a tight collection development policy
and stick to it and followIllinois law.
Illinois law, thankfully,currently is requiring us
to have a diverseand representative collection

(45:41):
for all students.
The other law that I wantto talk about before we really move
more into some specificsabout libraries
is the inclusive curriculum law.
This is a lawin Illinois that was passed
in 2019, took effect in July of 2020.
This law mandates that publicschools include contributions
of lesbian, gay, bisexual,and transgender individuals

(46:03):
in the teachingof Illinois and US history.
For libraries to continue to align
to curriculum, they needmaterials that would support
that inclusive curriculum law.
I wanted to offer that,one, as a discussion point,
if anybody has anythingto add related to that,
but also justto reassure the librarians
who are wondering if these materials

(46:24):
have a placein their collection or not,
are they going to beviolating some rule
or regulation by including them?
I would say, again, ethically,you're trying to serve
the community in your school,
so the studentsand their representation,
but also make surethat you are not limiting
the materials that supportthat curriculum.
I have to go back to what A saidabout, unfortunately,

(46:46):
you have experiencedlibrarians/teachers
who were not doing their best
to support individual students.
To me, that is even more chilling,
I think, than any executive order,that any single
individual in the library would ever
make somebody feel less than,
and I really am sorry to hear that.
I think, too, when thinkingabout ethics and the law,

(47:08):
I think rightnow we are rapidly descending
into a place where our ethicsare going to become further
and further from the law,and to be thinking about
what will you do to ensure
that you hold fast to your ethics?
For a long time,like I mentioned earlier,
libraries were segregated,that was legal.

(47:32):
That's not ethical,but it was the law.
We have a moral imperativeto resist unjust laws.
I think as school librarians,
we're all going to have to reckonwith, what will we do?
How far will we goto enforce our ethics system
of being a welcomingplace for students?
Where is your line?

(47:53):
How far are you willingto defend those ethics?
How far are you willingto go for your students?
It's not a fun thing to think about,
and it's not a funconversation to have.
Unfortunately, right now,
especially with someof these executive orders,
and even though we have laws
in Illinois that protectus right now,

(48:14):
who knows what will happen?
What about places where peopledon't have those legal protections?
I think that those are things
that I have been thinkinga lot about.
I think also, as to your point, Leah,
about that happeningis really unfortunate.
It does, even deadnaming students
or not pronouncing students' names

(48:35):
correctly if they'rein another language,
or shortening someone's name,anglicizing their name.
Things like that are--
I like to think a lotabout micro activism,
instead of microaggression.
What is somethingI can do to be a micro activist?
Things like sharing--When I introduce myself,
maybe share my pronouns as well.

(48:55):
That would make a studentfeel comfortable.
Just having thingsaround your library
that represent different studentsfrom different identities.
As far as includingit in your curriculum,
everything that we read for my bookclub was from Project LIT,
which is Project LibrariesIn The Community.
Everything that's on that listis marginalized

(49:16):
or own voices stories.
I think that's really important.
I didn't have to tellall my students like,
"Hey, I picked this list of books
because these arereally important stories
about diverse representation."
They knew what we were reading.
We read things like Just Mercy
and Monday's Not Coming,All Boys Aren't Blue.
That was one that I skated through,I will say for sure,

(49:39):
because that has been one
of the more challenged books.
Reading things like that,
talking about things like that,promoting books
like that on your social media,
putting your pronouns in your email,or even on your profile,
just little acts of activismthat show people-.
I love that.
that they belong.
I can't take credit for it.
I stole it from maybeBrené Brown or something.

(50:03):
Micro activism.
I love it.
Yes.
Taking that timeto affirm our students
and to make themfeel seen and welcomed,
I think really goes a long way.
There's so muchto these little moments
of students feeling accepted,feeling seen, feeling heard,
even your behaviormanagement strategies.

(50:25):
Are you super punitive?
Are you redirecting in positive ways?
You have to know your community.
If a student isn't making eye contact
with you, is that a sign of respect
in the culture that they come from?
Is that because they just physicallycannot hold eye contact?

(50:45):
Little things like that endup going a huge long way,
or even take a wheelchairand run it through your library.
Can you fit a chairthrough the space?
Are the shelves too high up?
Are there hanging signs
that are going to potentiallybe a trigger
or distractionfrom someone whose brain
would be activatedby something like a hanging sign?

(51:07):
At one of my libraries,I had a really high population
of emerging bilingual students,a lot of newcomers as well.
Students who are comingto the United States
for the very first time.
I wanted to make it such that
they could walkin and they could tell--
they might not be ableto read every word,
but they could at least tellthat there were different sections
that had different books.

(51:27):
I put tape around and color-coded it
so that they could be like,
"Okay, at leastthis color is one thing
and this other coloris something different."
Even little things like thatcan really have a huge impact
in helping studentsfeel seen and supported.
Signage is another one.

(51:48):
I have a lotof different types of posters.
I've got queer and trans flags.
I've also got Sí Se Puede,Black Lives Matter.
I've got different activists posters.
I've got a Fred Hampton poster,Yuri Kochiyama poster, and lots
of different positive affirmationsaround the library.
I think those thingsare what students comment on.

(52:10):
That will be an entry point
into a conversation which buildsa positive relationship,
which then buildsa student feeling seen,
and that has gottenstudents into books
that haven't touched a book in years.
Who have had this door opened
to them a possibilitybecause those tiny little things,

(52:31):
which might not seem like a big deal
for a young person can be everything,
can be an entry point into safety.
The best compliment I ever got,
and it's not going to soundlike one when I say it,
but I value it and thinkabout it every day
is an African-American girl
comes up to me, and she goes,
"Hey, for an old white lady,you have a lot of books

(52:51):
for Black girls like me."
I was just so touched.
She's like, "I've never seena book about somebody like me."
I think it was the hate you give.
I have to admit,I am an old white lady, but I think
you have to put yourself out there,and you have to try.
If you're not from a marginalizedidentity group,
you really have neverhad that experience.

(53:13):
It's very hard to imagine,
and it's very hardto know how to react,
but you have to putyourself out there.
I think that's what I would wantto say to people who are afraid.
You're there, you're asked
to protect those kidsall day, every day.
It's not just from an active shooter,it's not just from bullies,
it's from societal idealsand things like that.

(53:37):
I just feel very strongly about that.
Even when you're talking a book like,
"Oh, this author is neurodiverse,"and share that.
When you're modelinghow to use a database,
you can look up Stonewall
or Marsha P. Johnson, or anything.
You can use any opportunityto just teach them more about--
It doesn't have to beCharles Dickens every time.

(53:58):
Yes.
Also, just what A saidabout cultural relevance,
that is a huge motivator.
If I feel like I belongin this space, because it's relevant
to me and my culture,even as a teenager,
there is a such thingas teenage culture.
I'm not sayingwe all have to be on the clock app
as much as I am and knowall the lingo.

(54:20):
It's just nice if they walkin and see something
that's like the way that they talk
or the way that they are consumingmedia or things like that.
This all gets at what I wantedto talk about next,
which is identity and representation.
Representation matters.
I don't think anybody'sgoing to disagree with that.
How do you determinewhich representation matters

(54:42):
to your libraryor what you're going to include?
Representation is thingsthat are beyond race
and ethnicity, like neurodivergence,
family structure, disability.
There's a lot of different things.
I think there aresome librarians who think
it's a challenge to sometimes know,we rightfully want
to respect everyone's privacy.
We're not going to force kids
to out themselves in any way,shape, or form.

(55:03):
That's what you're talkingabout with regards
to making things findablewithout them having to come to you
because there'sa vulnerability to that.
For you, what would your advice
be for librarians who are struggling
with what types of representationthey need to consider?
I think we should really be looking
at all different typesof representation,

(55:23):
our collections should reflectour communities,
but they shouldalso reflect communities
that our students are not a part of.
We mentioned earlier,Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop's article,
Mirrors, Windows,and Sliding Glass Doors.
We really should be looking
to truly have a breadthand depth of diversity.
That would mean taking time,really looking at your collection

(55:46):
and sitting with it and seeing like,
"Okay, do I have diversefamily structures represented?
What about different religions?
What about neurodiversity?"
Even the different plot structures.
Are all of the storieswith Jewish characters
all revolving around the Holocaust?
Jewish students deserveto have a fantasy story
or a story where they're justhanging out

(56:06):
and having fun, and also deserveto have this particular point
in Jewish history talked about.
If that's the only representation
that you're seeing, that isn't a truediversity of experiences.
I think the workthat I've done is really sat
with my collection and gone
through and seeing, "Okay,where are the gaps?

(56:28):
What does my schoolcommunity look like?
Where are the differentsalient identities
that my studentshave that they talk about,
that they ask about?"
Then what are the thingsthat they aren't asking about?
Why might that be?
What's in my collectionand what's not in my collection?
Why might that be?
Starting there,finding a small area to tackle
at a time and building it up,

(56:48):
and then going on toanother one little bits at a time,
I think goes a long way.
I definitelyhave to remind myself like,
"Okay, I can't just snapmy fingers and it's going to be
the most well-represented collectionto our collection."
All those little stepsgo a really long way,
and that we really should be looking
for the wide expanseof identities and of experiences,

(57:11):
and the intersectionsof those two identities as well.
If you're looking at, for example,
your books with LGBTQ characters
and they're all one genreand they're all white people,
that is a really narrow viewof what the LGBTQ community is.
That is doingour students a disservice.
-Yes. I always tellschool librarians,

(57:32):
the library is like a cell.
It's constantly going to be changing.
You always have to think about it
as never finishedbecause if you think of it like that,
it's going to disappoint you.
You have to just think,"Oh, this is constantly in flux.
I'm constantly changing things."
Agreed about what A saidabout changing up even genre,
making sure that you have novels

(57:52):
and graphic novels and short stories
and anthologiesand maybe picture books.
Different genres.
It's a good way to easilydiversify your collection.
Also thinking aboutthere's no one way to be "blank".
There's no one way to be Latina.
There's no one way to be queer,the diaspora that exists

(58:14):
in all of these identities.
Also, we've been talking a lotabout intersectionality today.
Definitely thinking about Kimberlé
Crenshaw and thinkingabout intersectionality
when you're building your collection,
I would do a get-to-know you formfor at least my book club kids.
I feel like that was a litmustest for what everyone was into.

(58:36):
It would just be questions like,"What are you into?
What do you like to do?
What's somethingon your wishlist right now
that you want to buy, an object?"
It doesn't have to be a book,
but that will tell meabout my students.
I think getting to know them as well,
it helps you builda diverse collection.
Also, my nonfiction was genre-fied.
That was an easy waythat I could really look at like,

(58:56):
"Okay, I have this many booksabout World War II.
Do I also have that muchrepresentation for Vietnam
or whatever other historicallysignificant event?"
Titlewave doeshave a diversity audit tool.
Then I know that Kelsey Bogan,who does the blog Don't Shush Me,
has a lot of posts about diversifyingyour collection if you're interested

(59:18):
in learning more about that.
That's good advice, too.
That's so cool.
I love that there's so many resourcesout there for people to use.
Don't reinvent the wheel.
Exactly.
You're not alone in tryingto do this work, either.
Always reach out to your colleagues
and get support where you need it.
I have one last questionbefore we begin to wrap things up.

(59:38):
That is thinkingbeyond the collection,
what are other ways that your librarysupports diverse students
and supports students across
all these different communitiesand identities?
I think signage, we've talkedabout a little bit already.
I think signage is one.
Putting a bunchof different identities
and empoweringslogans for your students.

(01:00:01):
Space design.
Is it going beyond ADA accessibility?
Is it welcomingto students of a variety
of different mobilitiesand neurotypes?
Is it easy for students
who are newcomersto the US to navigate?
Are your signs for genreseasy to understand?
Do they need to be writtenin multiple languages?

(01:00:22):
Even the font that we're using,
is it difficult for a studentwith dyslexia to parse?
If you're on a grade-levelteam advocating
for students,I've been the GSA facilitator
at every school that I have been in.
Getting involved with studentclubs and student groups,
I also lead four clubs as well.
That's another way to make surethat we are serving our students.

(01:00:46):
If students are sharingwith you experiences
that they have had relatedto marginalization with oppression,
it's our duty to speak up and to helpadvocate for that student.
To be that adult in the roomthat's saying, "Hey,
that's not rightthat this happened to you."
That can include having conversations

(01:01:07):
with your colleagues,having conversations with admin.
I think all of those thingsgo to making
the library a welcoming place.
I'm sure there's somethingthat I'm leaving out,
but those are definitelysalient things
that I am trying to think about.
Even in interactions with students,
learning things that they like.
I am also, unfortunately,on the clock app.

(01:01:34):
It really helps me form relationships
with studentsbecause I, unfortunately,
know what they're talking aboutwhen they reference some meme.
Then they thinkyou're so cool when you do.
Cool or cringe,but in a wholesome way.
In an affectionate way, yes.
No, I think even if they're cringingat you, it's because--

(01:01:55):
and they feel affectionfor you because you are trying.
So true.
You're trying to connect.
Anyway.
Also, I tried to make a library space
that wasn't just for readers.
Games, I had a keyboardwhere you could plug
in your headphones and play.
Oftentimes, I'd have kidsstart playing something,
and I'd be like,"Oh, I love that song."
Then they're like, "What?
You know this song?"

(01:02:15):
That was a really good way.
Also thinking aboutyour digital spaces as well.
For me, I don't know,social media was a big way
that I connected with students.
I would do like, "Give me a color
and I'll give you a bookrecommendation."
Especially because I was working
through peakof pandemic and lockdown.
A lot of that.
Even just, I would askthem what they're reading.

(01:02:35):
They answer me,and I would just be like,
"Oh, what do you like about it?"
Not that I'm looking at their storiesor anything like that.
Just interacting with themabout the library, making sure
that I posted everything.
I too sponsored Garden club,
created that,and a knit and crochet club,
both of which you needzero skills of any kind to do.

(01:02:58):
Those were availableto students as well.
I mostly just wanted them to connect
in their brain, library equals good.
Librarian equals helpful.
I did a lot of helpingstudents with scholarship stuff
as well and college applications.
That was a really good waythat I connected with students.
It's a free space.
There's not the expectationof spending money.

(01:03:21):
There's air conditioning or heating.
It's a great place to be.
You just want studentsto know that and be there.
I always triedto make the library be like,
"No matterwhat your question is about,
it can be answered in the library."
I would never be like, "Oh, no,
you got to go talk to the office."
I'm like, "I don't knowthe answer to that question,
but I will help you find it out."

(01:03:42):
I'm like,"Any question can be answered
in the library," so that they're not afraid.
Once you've created any fear,that is almost
impossible to reverse then.
Oh, I forgot another thing.
Not charging fines.
When I was first starting at a place,
the fine calculatorwas automatically set up in Destiny.
I had a child comeand try and pay the fine.

(01:04:02):
It was $11.
They were like,"I'm so sorry, I only have 5."
I was like,"I will just waive the fine."
Don't even worry.
They started crying,
because that was foodmoney for the family.
Why would you ever charge a fine
when it could be coming out of rent,
when it could be coming out of food?
That can go a long wayto students feeling like they can use

(01:04:23):
the library becausethere are so many people
who even won't use the publiclibrary because they're like,
"I can't paya fine if I lose a book."
We just have to budget for that.
I would rather spendmy time writing grants
to replace lost booksthan for a child to be crying, upset,
for a family to be saying, "Okay,
we're going to setaside some rent money
so that we can pay for this book," or, "I don't want

(01:04:45):
you going to the library anymore,because you lost that book.
Now we don't have the money for it."
That, I think,is another really powerful way
that we can showthat the library is for everybody.
Yes, it is work to write grants.
I've written many thousandsof dollars in grants.
To me, that is worth it,
because the alternative is peoplearen't using
the space and people are being
negatively impacted by a fine policy.

(01:05:08):
Yes, and I thinkthat we aren't always good
at thinking through all the ways
that we createthose barriers to access.
We think of fines as like, well,
somebody has to payto replace the materials.
It might as well bethe person responsible
for losing them, but--
That's the cost of doingbusiness as a library.
Yes.
I think about like,if you were running a store,

(01:05:29):
you have loss prevention,it's part of your budget.
You already know some people
are probably going to walkaway with things either
intentionally or unintentionally.
You already know that that's partof the cost of doing business.
For libraries is very much the same.
I'd rather lose a bookthan a library kid.
Exactly.
I totally agree with that.
Completely agree.
To close out every episode,

(01:05:49):
we to talk a little bit abouthow we can support ourselves
and take care of ourselves.
Doing the workof librarianship is stressful
at times, can be very difficult.
It's important for librariansto prioritize their mental health.
If you don't mind,I would love for you to share one way
that you're taking careof yourselves right now.
I think for me,it's been being in community

(01:06:12):
with other trans people,especially right now
being there to justsupport each other.
I'm also partof some professional library
and professional teachernetworks for trans people as well.
That has definitelybeen really helpful right now.
We got a new couch, so couch rotting.
Making what I refer to as passions,

(01:06:34):
which is content from my bookstagramor physical collages.
I really to collage.
That's so cool.
I would say do not discountcouch rotting as shelf care.
Oh, couch rottingis total shelf care.
Because there is a lotof that just recharging
your battery you need to do.
I think that we put a lot of pressure

(01:06:55):
on ourselves to be productive24/7 and that's not realistic.
Rest is productive.
I wanted to leavewith a little uplifting story.
Unfortunately,I was at a school's board meeting
because the schooland the school board had decided
to revoke their compliancewith the ALA Library Bill of Rights,
which is bad andterrible and very sad.

(01:07:16):
I was blown away by the amountof moms who got up
to say, "I want my kids to knowabout more than just themselves.
I want my kidsto know there are people
of other culture, identity, religion.
I want them to know that.
If you are not going to let them,
then what are we even here for?"

(01:07:38):
That was a combinationupper and downer situation.
I just walked awayfeeling very inspired
by those moms who showed up.
They're out thereand we just have to continue
to be them ourselves and to find them
where we can to work together.
Yes, that's a great point.
I want to thank youboth for joining us today.

(01:07:59):
I appreciate this conversation.
While it is a very sensitiveand heavy topic,
I feel you gave librarians
a lot of great adviceand a good place to start
with this type of workand some good tips
for how to navigatewhat we're going through right now.
I appreciate that.
Is there anything else you'd to add?
I think somethingthat I might have touched

(01:08:20):
on a little bit,but I think is really important
to think about is dog whistles
and how they're being used right now.
For example, the phrase pornography
in the library,there is a legal definition
of what pornography is.
Unfortunately,people are using the word pornography
because it is really activatingand they're using that to refer to--

(01:08:41):
most of the time,it is books with queer
and trans charactersby queer and trans authors,
and that have content in themthat if the author was not queer
or trans would not be necessarilybe being challenged.
It's indicativeof a larger moral panic
and the homophobia and transphobia,and even things like DEI,

(01:09:01):
that's being used as a dog whistlefor anything that isn't white.
Anything that doesn't fit that idealthat is created by white supremacy.
I think that is really important
that when we engagein these conversations
that we'd be realistic aboutthese are currently terms
that are being weaponized.
They're intended to provokean emotional response.

(01:09:23):
The data showsthat those are the words
that are purposely being used.
I think in theselarger conversations,
us all getting educated aboutwhat current dog whistles are,
and how they're being used,
and how they're beingweaponized against our communities,
I think is really important.
All really great points.
Yes. Thank you both so much.

(01:09:45):
To our listeners,thank you again for joining us.
Let us know if you have any questions
or topic ideas you want us to cover.
You can leave us a voicemailon our super secret bat phone hotline
at 630-734-5015.
Until next time,stay legit, don't quit.

(01:10:05):
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