Third Culture Experience: Navigating Identity, Belonging & Boundaries as Caribbean Immigrants

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Simone W. Johnson Smith is the author of Decoding America: The Immigrant Experience and host of The Immigrant Experience in America podcast. A Jamaican-born public servant and cultural coach, Simone supports immigrant professionals through the emotional and cultural transitions of life in a new country.

Caribbean immigrants create something new and powerful when they leave their birth countries—a hybrid identity that's neither fully their native culture nor completely American, but according to Simone, a third culture person with unique strengths and perspectives.

Key Takeaways:

• Third culture persons develop a hybrid identity that becomes their superpower.
• Code switching is a natural adaptation strategy that all humans use in different contexts.
•  Culture shock symptoms range from mild depression to fatal self-harm and should be taken seriously.
• Coming home to yourself means integrating valuable parts of both cultures deliberately.
• Healthy boundaries with family back home are essential for immigrants' well-being.
• The immigrant experience involves balancing communal values from home with American individualism.
• Work environments often present the greatest challenges for Caribbean immigrants.

This conversation complements the Caribbean Diaspora Experience Model (CDEM), developed by Carry On Friends to help Caribbeans better understand their evolving identity across time, place, and life stages.

Connect with Simone  - thebridgeconcepts.org

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode
of Carry On Friends theCaribbean American experience.
And I'm excited, always excited, to have my next guest on the
podcast, simone, welcome toCarry On Friends, how are you?

Speaker 2 (00:17):
I am well.
It's such a pleasure to joinyou, carrie-anne, on the show.
I've been watching you on thesidelines and hearing great
things about you, so I'm so gladthat we finally are connecting.
So thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
I am excited that we're connecting because you
cover something that aligns withthe show.
I just talked about myCaribbean Diaspora Experience
model and I really would lovefor the audience to just get
into this conversation as wedive deeper into what you call
third person or third culture,people or persons, and we're

(00:51):
going to get all into that.
But before we do that see, I'mso excited I'm getting ahead of
myself in the conversation whydon't you tell the community of
friends a little bit about whoyou are, Caribbean country you
represent and the work that youdo?

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Sure happy to share.
So I am originally from Jamaica.
Right Yadi Yadi 100%.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
And we would say boop , boop.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yes, 100%, yadi.
But I've been here now for overtwo decades, and now longer
than I was in Jamaica, the landof my birth, right.
And so, boy, it has been ajourney and I had to start the
podcast and everything I've donesince.
But currently I do so manythings Right, so I have a full
time job in the public service.
I do so many things right, so Ihave a full-time job in the
public service, right, so I domy full-time job.
I went to work at Rose at 5 amthis morning, went to work, got

(01:56):
there at six o'clock, left at2.30, picked up the daughter
from summer camp, we went to getour smoothies from Smoothie
King.
I got home, she's in the roomwatching her little monster
dance show and I'm here on apodcast at six o'clock.
So I'm a busy woman, a busyworking mother, but on the side,
outside of my full-time job, myown life experience has pulled
me into this world of whathappened to me after I left my

(02:19):
birth country.
Oh my gosh, I have changed inso many ways and so much richer.
Life is so much richer, right,I had no idea what the
experience I was about to go on,but these days I go by author.
Author of the book DecodingAmerica the immigrant experience

(02:39):
, where I talk about you knowwhat is this new place I'm
living in and how do youunderstand these people?
Why do they behave this way?
They don't sound like me, Ican't fit in with them a lot of
times and it's nerve wrackingtrying to figure out this place.
Right, what is American?
So I talk about all that in mybook and then I am a podcaster

(03:02):
right of the podcast called theImmigrant Experience in America,
where we amplify and humanizethe experiences of immigrants
living around the world.
Right, we now have over 180episodes.
We've interviewed people fromaround the world talking about
you know why did they leavetheir countries?
What were the challenges andsuccesses over the years?

(03:24):
Leave their countries, whatwere the challenges and
successes over the years?
And all of the things that goesalong with adjustment,
challenges that comes when youleave your birth country.
And I also.
I have a course and offercoaching to people who are going
through the thick of cultureshock, loss of cultural self.

(03:46):
You don't feel like yourself,no more.
You can't really put yourfinger on it.
In fact, you don't even havethe words to explain.
What am I going through?
Why do I?
I don't like.
I don't feel like myselfanymore.
In fact, the research says thatculture shock.
The symptoms range from milddepression to fatal self-harm.

(04:07):
It's that serious and I havepersonally heard of stories of
people who have fatally harmedthemselves.
So take it seriously, folks.
This is why I have put so muchof my personal time in really
finding the research.
I talk about it in my book.
We know the challenges are real.
The research I talk about it inmy book.

(04:28):
We know the challenges are realand sometimes you might think
that, okay, I'm living in a newplace, I'm trying to assimilate
and it's not working.
But oftentimes it's deeper thanthat and it's important.
My message is it's importantfor you to come home to yourself
.
A lot of people, when they moveabroad, they feel like they
have to give up everything andevery part of who they were, and
you can't.
How do you throw out 10, 15, 20plus years of your life and

(04:53):
just start anew?
You just simply can't.
It's very.
And come home to who you areand you then are able to create
something amazing, which I callyour superpower.
Right, it is a superpower to bea third culture person, to be a

(05:15):
hybrid of your old country andthe new country and there's so
much power within that space andI'm really encouraging people
to embrace it and uh and seewhat it does for you in your
life.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Wonderful.
So, um, are you focused mostlyon adults, people who migrated
in their adult age, becausethere's a difference migrating
as a child, which is, you know,I, 17 and under, um, versus 18
and 18 and over.
Is that where you mostly focuson in the work that you do?

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Not necessarily I'm starting there, right, because
that's been, that's.
I'm an adult, an older adult,right.
But I do know for third culture, kids.
It's a whole other experience,right?
Some people come when they'refive or they're eight or even
younger, and or even they mightbe born in the US or any other

(06:13):
Western country, such as mydaughter, and at home there's a
completely different world, acompletely different culture.
But when they go to school andwith their friends, they're in
the local culture whereverthey're born, whether it's
Germany, the US, uk, canada, andso oftentimes there's a lot of
clashes that comes in with asthey get older.

(06:34):
What culture am I?
You know, who am I going to be?
Am I going to be American?
Am I going to be Canadian?
Am I Jamaican?
Am I a blend of my daughter'ssix?
And she's already having thoseconversations with me.
So I find that I can supportboth.
But I, you know, I've nicheddown to really zone in on the

(06:55):
pain points of workingprofessional parents, because
it's real, the struggle is realRaising children in a culture
that is so different from theone that you were born and
raised in.
You're now working with so muchless support than you had back
in your home country and plusthe clashes that comes with the

(07:16):
pressure to support yourcommunity and your family of
origin, plus balance yourpersonal life while you're a
working professional, raisingchildren in a new country,
you're a spouse, managing work,challenges and pressures and
self-care and your own personalaspirations and figuring it all

(07:37):
out.
It's very complex and so Istart there.
But I understand that in themiddle of that I can also
support first-generationAmericans or first-generation
third-culture children who arechildren of immigrants and are
in the thick of trying to makesense of who am I?
Who will I become?
Will my parents feeldisappointed if I choose to be

(07:59):
totally American and totallyassimilate into this culture?
I just want to fit in.
I don't want to straddle thefence, I just want to be a kid
and I get that.
So you know I'm here for thegamut of people, but I'm just
starting with the adults because, hey, I can relate to them
easier, easily, more easily.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
That makes so sense.
So, audience, this is whySimone is on, because the work
she's doing has so much synergywith CDEM, the Caribbean
Diaspora Experience Model,because I've come through most
of the model, or my brother andI.
So you have adults, you havethose who are like late
teenagers, then you have theyounger ones, you have those who
are born in the diaspora andconnected to culture and those

(08:42):
who aren't connected to culture,because I've seen how that
works and you are right, youknow everyone, particularly the
kids that were born in thediaspora.
They go through this feeling ofam I, am I not?
Which one do I consider?
And you and I, obviously we arelike you have a right to choose
.
Obviously we are like you havea right to choose, but you're

(09:05):
not either, or you are both.
You are this and this and this,if you choose to want to
embrace that.
Now let's go back to you.
You started the podcast.
You've been here 22 decades,right, I have three decades here
, and so at what point did yousay, aha, I should start this

(09:26):
podcast to have thisconversation.
Why did you call it?
Third Culture Persons?

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Well, you know what it was.
In the middle of COVID I hadbeen going through years of just
disorientation, just notfeeling like myself, not as
confident.
I remember when I first arrivedI was this bright eyed,
energetic, I was ready to takeon the world.
And you know, when I came upagainst the discrimination and

(09:55):
the racism and all that, Ididn't even have the words
because this is not stuff wetalk about in Jamaica, right?
So it was a learning curve forme and for years I would just
brush it off and just say, oh,that's just a nasty person, and
just go on my way.
And in fact some of my friendssay that, oh, we're just so
amazed how far you've gone orhow much you've accomplished

(10:15):
since you've been here.
And I think it's because partlyI didn't carry that weight of
people didn't like me because ofmy skin color, because I just
didn't understand I didn't havethat complex right, it wasn't
inside of me.
I was just oblivious, naive,very naive, to some of the

(10:40):
environments and people that Iwere among and didn't realize
what I was dealing with.
And so the microaggressions inthe environments and people that
I were among and didn't realizewhat I was dealing with.
And so the microaggressions inthe office and not understanding
why you just you feelmicroaggressions before you can
actually decode it.
You just know something doesnot feel right in your body and
I was having all of theseexperiences and over time it

(11:02):
just kept eroding, slowly,eroding who I was, eroding my
confidence, eroding just who Iwas, my identity.
I wasn't quite fitting in withthe.
I don't really like to identifyby my skin color and people
might find it weird.
I prefer to say I'mAfro-Caribbean, I'm

(11:23):
Jamaican-American, because Ifeel like when you use
nationality it says more aboutwho you are, how I was raised,
how I eat.
It tells someone so much moredefinitively about how to relate
to me If you just say I'm aBlack person, but what does that
mean?
If you say you're white, itdoesn't really mean much.
It's a social construct.

(11:45):
So for me, I was going throughthis internal turmoil of who am
I now, what's my identity, who'smy group and, frankly, was very
disheartened that people wholooked like me at work just
didn't pull me in, they didn'tclue me into the cultural
dynamics in the office, thepoliticals, which I was on my
own for so long, and it was sopainful.

(12:09):
It was so painful and you know,in the middle of COVID, I was
going through another worksituation and just trying to
like, not understanding, likewhy am I not clicking?
I'm just being myself and beingtold that I'm acting white,
being told that I'm not Blackenough, being told or being

(12:30):
treated like I'm a threat toeverybody's job because of my
resume.
I worked hard, I did the workand everybody sees me as a
threat.
I'm here as an immigrant,hyphenated American, to take
their jobs or they feel like I'mgoing to have a foot in the
door over them, and so peoplewere just hostile towards me,

(12:51):
just nasty, and I actually haveexpressed to one of these
persons that I am traumatizedand I'm trying to work through
the trauma of looking at peoplewho look like me and not being
accepted just because I have adifferent accent in the way I

(13:14):
express differently, I show updifferently, I have different
credentials, I'm from anotherplace and I've traveled around
the world several differentcountries.
I never really experienced thatuntil here in the US, right, so
it was so confusing for me, itwas such a disorientation and it
took my mom passing January 1,2021, that just pushed me out

(13:38):
because I wanted to do it in2015.
And I was so scared.
I was like man, I can't put myface, my personal story, because
as people from collectivistcultures, we're very private.
We don't put our business outthere, we don't put our dirty
laundry.
It was a huge thing for me toput my voice, my story.

(13:59):
In fact, when I did my firstfew interviews, I literally was
shaking, shaking in my body likeit was just reverberating.
It took me many episodes beforeI got used to hearing myself and
I just wanted to talk to otherpeople.
I was like, and it was in themiddle of the turmoil of one
administration I can't, I don'tremember the exact number and I

(14:22):
kept saying who are they talkingabout?
I'm not one of these immigrantswho are coming.
Who is this or that?
All these labels and it was thepalpable negative sentiments in
the media, in the air was sostrong that I was like I don't
know anybody.
All the people in my family arehardworking people who are here

(14:44):
to contribute and, in fact, arecontributing, and I just felt
like I needed to be that space.
I needed to step out.
I needed to talk to otherpeople to figure out like what
am I going through?
What all this negativenarrative and in fact, would I
have come if I were older andknew all of this?
Today?
I don't know.

(15:05):
I was going through a verypersonal experience of trying to
figure myself out, and I juststarted talking.
And here we are, three yearslater.
I've learned so much.
This whole idea of the thirdculture person.
I came across it through myresearch, from my book,
listening to another podcast anddoing some reading on my own,

(15:29):
and all I knew at the time waslike you know what?
Well, when I go back home toJamaica, people say you don't
sound the same anymore, and themoment I open my mouth, they
know that I have not been on theisland for a while and the
price goes up.
How many times?
Right, I come here and I don'tquite fit in either.

(15:50):
And so I felt like I was in thisin-between, and so the only
thoughts I had were well, I know, I'm a hybrid.
That's the only way I couldexplain it.
I'm a bit of the old, I'm a bitof the new and I'm in the
in-between.
And it was through the researchthat I came across the whole
concept of third culture person,third culture kids.
And then, all of a sudden, itstarted making sense the

(16:15):
research on culture shock andwhat I was going through.
It's pretty serious people, buta lot of times people don't
have the words to even starttalking about what they're

(16:35):
feeling or experiencing.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
So this is my life's work.
I really do feel that way whenthey come to America, because
when you're in the Caribbean youknow you're just living right,
and it's not until you come herethat you are aware that, oh,
it's not that you didn't knowyou were Black, but it's not a
thing, it's not made an issue.
Until you come here you realize, and to your point, it's mostly

(16:59):
the adults I mean the kidsexperience it in a different way
, but the adjustment is harderfor adults because they've spent
so much of their lives.
You spend so much of your lifejust living in your body and you
, being black wasn't a thing,right?
And now you now have to wrestlewith these things that now you
can't even find the words forLike, why are they so nasty to

(17:19):
me?
I said good morning.
Why did nobody answer me?
You know, like, wait, didn't?
I just say good morning.
And you want to do the Jamaicanthing and say I said good
morning.
So these adjustments, and youtalked about the slow erosion,

(17:40):
right, because you're still notfully reconciling that, right,
because you're still on, you'restill not fully reconciling that
.
And I think even with both ourrespective life's work, what
we've recognized is that we'vebeen experiencing things and the
people before us have beenexperiencing the same things,
but didn't have.
This is what's happening andthat's important, because the

(18:06):
slow erosion of self and youtalked about something that
pushed me to start the podcastwhich is work you know, the work
environment is rough, you know,on so many levels right, and it
forces you to make a choice,right.
That's why some in addition towhy many black women start

(18:28):
businesses, for us, asAfro-Caribbean women, it's even
that more where we're like.
You know, I need to do thisbecause I it's said the slow
erosion, that sense of notbelonging, what do you feel

(18:55):
typically is the first thingthat people need to pay
attention in their bodies,because you've said it at least
multiple times in the 15 minuteswe're talking it presents
initially intellectually, like,oh, this person is mean or
disrespectful.
But if you started feeling inyourself and your body that, oh,

(19:15):
something is not right here andyou couldn't identify, could
you talk to me a little bit moreof?
You know sometimes, thephysical symptoms you, you know
people might feel and dismiss itlike, oh me sick, me need to
drink some tea, I need to getmore sleep that people should be
paying attention to when itcomes to the adjustment,
especially for adults into youknow, this new life in America

(19:40):
and adjusting to all thesedifferent things that they're
not used to.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Right, yeah.
So I think, looking back, Ifeel like I was going through
depression, the anxiety I had alot of anxiety Sunday night the
thought of getting up andshowing up to work the next day
and the fear that would just runthrough your veins.
You can't sleep, fear thatwould just run through your
veins.
You can't sleep.

(20:05):
You know, having to show up towork and deal with the toxic
people around you who are justmean and rude for just no reason
because you and them didn'thave any fist fight, right?
They just don't like youbecause it's just how you
phenotypically look or show upat work, or they feel like maybe

(20:27):
you have a position that shouldhave been theirs or whatever.
It's a complex issue, right.
The shrinking wanting to ask aquestion when you're in a
meeting and you have thisamazing thought or amazing
addition to the meeting, butbeing afraid of speaking up
because you feel like somebodyin the room.
Afraid of speaking up becauseyou feel like somebody in the

(20:49):
room.
They may either steal your idea, they may downplay it and then
use it for themselves later andyou might not get credit for it,
or you just feel like you don'tlook like one of the people who
should be winning, and so it'slike a place that you need to
kind of fall back in in theoffice Like you can't shine.
I was used to doing well inschool and so I don't even know

(21:13):
how not to shine.
I was just a kid.
That's the environment that wehave in Jamaica Everybody do
well and we all compete and yousay kudos to the guy who make it
to be the head boy and the girlwho make it to be the head girl
, but we just it's healthycompetition and but you know,
finding that you're afraid nowto speak up and share and then

(21:36):
you find yourself just shrinking, staying in the shadow, not
wanting to go out to the happyhours.
And that was one big thing too,because it was so awkward for
me, because I didn't grow upgoing to happy hours.
Like what in the world is thiswhole idea of just going out for
a few hours and just gettingwasted on liquor?
I mean, we grew up havingdragon or rum or whatever, a

(21:58):
little bit in the carrot juiceor sorrel or whatever.
It's a regular thing for usgrowing up.
So when you get to 18 it was nobig deal.
But for here, I mean, I was aresident assistant at my
undergrad and to see thefreshmen on the freshman dorm
come in and as soon as theirparents leave, the front of the

(22:19):
business building is lined upwith people smoking, drinking,
wasted, wasted, not showing upto class.
I'm like this is not.
I don't know what this is.
Okay, simone.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
I don't mean to cut you off, but I had another
person so I went on anotherpodcast talked about this.
The host connected me with thisother person who said the same
thing.
I went to college and they haveempty beer buckle and liquor
buckle line up on the windowsilland I'm like what is this?
Every Thursday night, everybodyget wasted.
I'm like I don't understand why, everybody frightened.

(22:55):
So it's that culture shock forus because we're like for liquor
, Really Like what is this Right?
Even the college experience,this whole thing.
Are we in pajamas to class?
We're like, oh my gosh, whatkind of shame and embarrassment
this would be coming on us.
But again, it's that cultureadjustment.
And you know, at the time mymother, my mother, didn't go to

(23:19):
college here, so she couldn'thave prepared me, you know, for
for what I was going to see whenI walked into college, you know
.
And so all of those adjustments, they let you stand out, right,
and you said something acollectivist culture.
You know, we compete and it'sinteresting how we compete in

(23:40):
class, everything you said, butno one really stands out, the
way that you know what happenswhen we stand out, and because
we feel like we stick out like asore thumb, we shrink back,
cause I remember doing that.
I did not want to feel like Iwas outshining people and I
remembered the feelings I gotwhen people felt like I was

(24:02):
outshining them.
But I'm like, I'm just beingregular, I'm not even really
trying here, I'm just doing whatI know I'm supposed to do.
So, like I, everything thatyou're saying is really
resonating with me, you know of.
You know, and sometimes some ofthat residual probably still
happens where I'm just like youmay not catch me on social media

(24:22):
a lot, because I'm just like,yeah, you know those wounds,
they leave deep scars, you knowof.
Like, you look down and you'relike, yeah, this is what
happened when I did somethingand someone thought I was trying
to upstage them and I was justdoing a regular, I'm not.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
I didn't even prepare like you're threatened and I
didn't even prepare LikeSeriously, what if I put some
work into this?
But the thing about it is atleast two people who've told me
multiple times there's 48 lawsof power about not outshining
the master.
The master.

(25:05):
That was not in myconsciousness Right and I still
feel like I struggle with itbecause I show up and I just I'd
look to my two cents and all ofa sudden everybody thinks, say
you know, I'm coming for them.
That was like the last thing onmy mind.
But you know when, when you, Imean that's a mediocrity.
You know people who kind ofdwell in mediocrity, and if you
have somebody who just comes inthe room and they're used to

(25:28):
healthy competition and justshining and doing you know just
your regular best, then all of asudden everybody um feel
threatened.
I don't know Is it the crab inthe barrel or some.
There's this thing called thetall poppy syndrome in the
research that you know, incollectivist cultures they don't

(25:49):
like when people are too showyand they call it boastful or if
you're trying to outshineeverybody and so they tend to
tear down that one person.
But it's here a lot too in theUS, interestingly and you'll
find people who will literallyhide their talent or behave a
certain way just to be part ofthat in-group.

(26:10):
And it's pretty sad.
Yeah Right, it's pretty sad.
I've observed it at work and inother people, but I honestly
I've struggled with just stayingquiet, not saying too much,
because you know I'm excited tojust contribute and put my
energy into things and it's soyou're being taught that you

(26:32):
know you're only to contributeto this much to keep don't rock
the boat you know you can't helpit.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
Sometimes I do a good job, just shut my mouth, as me,
say, but there are momentswhere I'm just like me, can't
shut up, like you know something, like it's like you see it,
like it's me alone seeing this.
You kind of have to saysomething and it's just like
sometimes you just you know it'sit.

(26:58):
I still struggle with that.
You know how much I want to toto shine and you know and I put
shine in quotations is how muchI want to just be free in my
expression and my thoughts andmy intellect and how much?
and and and when I just want to,to just go in a cage and sit

(27:19):
down, like a lioness goes intothe cage and sit down and watch
everything.
Or do I want to come out and,you know, prowl and watch the
pride, and I do.
I find myself still doing thatbecause I'm very conscious, you
know, in, and sometimes peopledon't realize in what they do or
how much they do.

(27:40):
They to to, to put you, not you, simone, but it's the little
things, because we pick up onthose things.
Right, to them it's nothing.
But because we are the outsider,we are sensitive to the little
things that they do to make usknow that I just did something

(28:00):
that you did not like, and nowI'm more aware of that, and so
now you're kind of navigatingspaces.
So I just love that you'rehaving this conversation,
especially for adults, right,because there are many resources
that you can potentially havefor children.
Right, but dealing with adultsand this adjustment, there's not

(28:21):
enough resources and alsoadults may not even want to
admit that this is an issue forthem.
Right, because guess whatGenerations before was dealing
with it and they were fine.
So you don't want again, youdon't want to be the tall puppy
standing out and say, oh, I havea problem cycling into America
when all these other people camebefore me auntie, so-and-so,

(28:45):
uncle, this had no problem.
So let's talk about belonging,right, because it's a term that
people use, you know around,like what does that look like
for immigrants?
Is there such a thing before wehad assimilation?
Are we still assimilating?
I don't know if assimilation isthe thing that we're doing now

(29:06):
and belonging, like.
How are those two words makesense in today's world?

Speaker 2 (29:12):
Right, right.
So when I first got here, Iwould hear accommodation and
assimilation and for the longesttime I kept saying I'm
accommodating because I'm notgiving up who I am.
I mean, how do you expect me tocome to the table and erase my
entire life, Exactly?

(29:34):
I mean, how do you?

Speaker 1 (29:34):
even begin to do that .
I don't know how some people doit.
As long as me born in Jamaica,there's no way you're going to
erase anything Jamaican out ofmy DNA, my words, my body.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
But how do you even do that?
It's impossible.
Even people who quote unquoteare fully assimilated and you
can't even tell where they'refrom or how they sound.
That culture is still underthere, the roots and the
influence from birth, I mean,because that's what you pick up
when you're a baby.
How do you get rid of that?
You don't erase it.

(30:04):
So I always have used the wordaccommodation.
Assimilation to me is when youfully, like, you take on the
local lingo, the sounds, youjust completely kind of give up
who you are before and you don'treally.
You keep that to a minimum,right, and you just kind of do
whatever you need to do to fitin with whatever group you feel
like you need to be fitting into.

(30:24):
That was never me.
I just I just I didn't evenknow how to do it.
In fact it's years down theroad that I started even
becoming more aware and learning, having the language to have
these conversations.
So I didn't even know how and alot of people don't.
They just know how to bethemselves.
So for me I like to use theword integration, right, because

(30:46):
it really goes along withbecoming a hybrid.
It's impossible to live five,10, 15, 20 years in a country
and don't change Right,eventually parts of who you were
from your birth country aregoing to start fading.
Who you were from your birthcountry are going to start
fading, you know.
And then when you go back homeyou don't quite fit in anymore.

(31:11):
The subtleties, the nuances,the sort of nonverbal
communication that kind ofhappens in communal cultures,
like in some cultures.
They make sounds and people areable to pick up communication
low versus high context levelsof communication, and so once
you've been out of that for adecade or more, sometimes you

(31:32):
lose that.
And I, you know there's somepeople I go back and people will
just say things and they justget it.
And for me it will take me awhile to kind of decode what's
going on.
And so you're always going tobe a hybrid or integration of
this, and so some people mighttry to fully assimilate when

(31:54):
they go outside of their home,whether it's at work, socially,
but people use the term codeswitching.
People use the term codeswitching I talked about in my
book, contextual code switching,because I find that there's no
way really that you're going tojust be consistently this one

(32:15):
person in every environment,because you have to kind of
adapt yourself.
You're not going to walk into aroom with a group of quote
unquote white males or Indianmales or black males and use the
same type of communication.
You really have to tailor thatto your audience, right.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
Simone, when I first heard that it was wrong to code
switch, I struggled with thatbecause I disagree.
We code switch every day.
The way I address my brothers,I would never address my mother
the same way.
That is a form of code switchingbecause it's based on the
audience, the way that I eveneven the way that I address my

(32:58):
grandmother wouldn't be the sameway I address my mother, the
same way.
You know, so it is.
You know so it is, you know I.
I mean it's unfortunate.
We have to put the contextbefore it, because you, you code
switch based on the context.
Also for me, me going betweenthe patois and the speaky-spooky
is a superpower, but also it'srelationship right.

(33:21):
Me can't talk to you this way,simone, because by culture we
have a sort of relationshipright, it's a level of cultural
intimacy.
Right, I'm not going to talklike this to certain people at
work because one they don't getit.
But we are not that culturallyconnected for me to speak to you
this way, and so you know it'sthe.

(33:42):
It's, the superpower in havingthis culture is the superpower
that I'm bilingual.
You may not recognize myJamaican language officially as
a separate language, but mybilingual.
Try talking.
You can't.
So that makes it a language forme, right?

Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
I love that you're talking about this contextual
code switching, which is whatcode switching is anyway is
necessary for survival, right,it is just how we go about.
You know I won't.
I mean every day you're notgoing outside to talk to this.
You know you're in school.
Would you talk to the principalor the teacher the same way?

(34:20):
You can't do that and welearned that it's like like me,
sound like we went to highschool in Jamaica.
You must be mad.
I talked to the teacher acertain way.
You listen.

Speaker 2 (34:33):
Yes, miss, good morning miss.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
First of all, the minute them touch the edge of
the classroom, you stand up.
Good morning, good, yes, whenthey leave class same thing'll
get up and address them.
I mean, when your classmatecomes to the class you're not
standing up and addressing them.
So this idea of painting codeswitching as a bad thing, I
don't think it is.
It is.

(34:55):
It's oftentimes necessary,based on the audience for
survival, and it just makessense.
We do this all the time.
I don't address, you know it'sjust, it just, yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
So yes, we're on the same page.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
We're on the same page, it just riled me up every
time we hear it, because I'mjust like this don't make no
sense yes, it's true actually asI was reading.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
but you know I kind of understand why some people
might feel a way about it.
Because certain groups havebeen so silenced, right and in
the workplace and socially inother spaces, them feel, say
them constantly have to changethemselves to whatever dominant
culture it is, whatever spaceyou're in them always feel, say

(35:42):
them just never can show up andjust be who they are.
So them feel, say, boy, I'mtired of your change, go to
college and teach me some alphabehavior this way.
When is, culturally, who I amgoing to be accepted?
So I get that conversation andfor those people I have empathy

(36:04):
and I get that.
But on a larger scale, for methat just didn't make sense.
Because, may I say, if I go towork and speak like this and use
certain terms and vibe acertain way, when you go giving
a presentation in a meeting,people just won't get it.
So you really have to tailoryourself and how you communicate

(36:24):
audience right and adaptingyourself to your audience.
So what we can't understand.
The other side of theconversation too, with the

(36:45):
people, them who feel like frombirth they've lived in such an
environment where they'reconstantly having to just
silence and be in the shadowsand can't be themselves, and so
they're tired of it.
So me get it.
I get that part of theconversation and I can empathize
, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
How do you guide your clients to navigating this
multiple world that they're nowliving in?

Speaker 2 (37:20):
You know, easy Mental health wise, that's a big thing
I'm interested in right.
For a long time I, you know, Idid Spanish and international
affairs in undergrad and I didinternational relations in my
master's program and I've kindof always felt like I had a
calling to go into eitherpsychology, psychiatry, maybe

(37:43):
neuroscience, neuropsych orclinical psych or something.
But because I've always kind ofhad an eye for the psychology
of things and you know, and nowI'm into this whole idea of
positive psychology, because Ireally do think that on a very
deep level we're experiencing somuch and not really even know

(38:06):
how to manage it and how it'saffecting us first internally,
and how then do you make senseof you know, your own personal
experience, find that peace andthen to be able to show up
healthily and relate to anotherperson, right.
So for me in my book I talkabout coming home to yourself
and for me that means, you knowI say world peace begins inside

(38:30):
of you.
We've become so externallydriven right, not necessarily
becoming because, when youreally think about it, in
collectivist cultures and I dostill consider Jamaica more
collectivist compared to the USand like other Western cultures

(38:52):
I interviewed somebody recently,jamaican who studied in Korea
and she said, compared to SouthKorea and Jamaica, she thinks
Jamaica is more individualisticand I can see that it's probably
influenced by the US.
But I grew up in a large family.
My dad is one of 11.
Mom is one of 12.
So tons of cousins andcommunity and people everywhere.

(39:14):
So you know you are alwaysraised to look out for everybody
else, your community.
There's really no strong senseof self.
You're going to school, you'restudying and people know you as
Simone, but there's just thatsort of an innateness about just
looking out for everybody else.
And I remember about justlooking out for everybody else

(39:35):
and I remember, you know, evenafter moving here, just I was so
concerned about cousins andfriends and everybody and I had
to learn this whole thing calledboundary.
That was a new thing for meback in like 2013.
I was continuing behaving as ifI were living in a communal
setting where everybody islooking out for everybody.

(39:57):
But when you're living in anindividualistic culture, it's
the what's in it for meEverybody just come and them
take, and them take, and themtake.
And if you don't really makesure that you are fill up your
tank, guess what You're well.
Agarone, drying up up your tank.

(40:18):
Guess what?
You're well, agarone, drying upand so the type of
personalities that exist in thisculture.
If you don't make sure that youare responsible for self-care
and filling up your own tank,you better know.
So you're going to get toburnout Every minute.
You're in a burnout becauseyou're constantly just putting
out, putting out, putting out,because that's who you are,
you're just.
It's about community, we're bigabout community.
So I had to learn to balancethat Right.

(40:40):
And so a lot of times, a lotabout the mental health and the
effects that are going through.
You're not even having thelanguage, but you need to come
home and you know you have tofind that peace within you first
.
First, the world peace reallydoes start within you.
You cannot give what you don'thave and the turmoil of

(41:01):
disorientation and culture shockand everything else.
You just don't feel likeyourself, no more.
You have to really get a holdof what's going on inside of you
first, set healthy boundariesbecause no, listen, you're
living in a context where youmight be married, you're working
professional, you're raisingchildren.
There's so much that's in thatYou're no longer living in the

(41:24):
midst of a community where youhave mom and dad next door,
uncle down the road some cousinswho can babysit your, your chef
, your chauffeur, you arefinancier, you're doing, you do
everything, and so you have tohave some healthy boundaries.
Um, I think I actually losttrack of the question, to be
honest no money you're goinggood during it.

(41:46):
No money you're going good,you're going um, but.
But the mental health piece ofit is really big, because I
think a lot of people come inthe US and they want to drive
the Mercedes Benz or the Teslaor the Alfa Romeo.
They want to have the big horsein a year or five years and it

(42:08):
takes time.
You have to know that thesethings take time to work at it
and a lot of the skills that youbring from your former culture
will help you survive here.
Such as you know, in Jamaica wehave the whole partner thing,
where everybody pool their moneytogether and everybody I mean
those skills and those types ofoperating very vital in this

(42:30):
culture, because you come andyou get so strapped into the
credit and you're spendingoutside of your means, over your
budget and, before you know it,everybody have plans for your
money and you don't have noplans for your money, you know,
and all you want to do is rent acar and put that picture on
Facebook and everybody thinksthat you live big and broad, but
the reality is that you'rebroke.

(42:54):
So you know, I am really big oncoming home to you, finding that
internal peace and balance,healthy boundaries and
recognizing what's going on athome first right, and then we
can start influencing, balancingyour personal aspirations of

(43:18):
whatever you feel like you wantto achieve being in this land of
milk and honey, and then youcan have social impact right,
and at some times you know, Isay, while you're climbing you
have to be pulling.
At the same time we get that,but we have to find some balance
and boundaries in there because, believe me, it can be
overwhelming.
And I've heard too many storiesof people who come here, them

(43:41):
work two, three, four jobs andthen send everything home and
sometimes literally them getsick and then just go home and
then not even have help to enjoyall that them work for right
Because of this big, grandioseexpectation from the community
and everybody else.
You know you live a foreign.
Where are you complaining about?

(44:01):
What kind of burnout are youtalking about?

Speaker 1 (44:04):
That's kind of why I wanted to ask.
You said come home to yourself.
I don't know.
Could people know what thatmeans?
I mean, do you even knowyourself?
Because social media is nowdictating what success looks
like and, like you say, all ofthe fancy brand name where you
just call are this that's,that's what it's saying is

(44:25):
success or is attainable?
So sometimes people can't evenreally tell really what coming
home to self is, because youknow there's so many things
externally influencing whatpeople think they want.
And so do we really even know?
Even me, you know, I think Iwant a podcast.
You know I have a podcast.

(44:47):
You understand.
Did I really want to start this, you understand?
So it's like this idea ofcoming home to self, I like it.
But that's where the work is,because you have to really start
to break down.
What is it, do I really want?
And sometimes it's okay to sayI don't know.
You know, because for such along time you're going on this,

(45:12):
this auto script that's beengiven to you, you know, hand it
down and you just feel like, andthen you know all these other
things.
So, long story short, I thinkthat makes sense, right, working
Cause.
My question was how do you workwith clients?
And that's based on the client,because a lot of this is social
, social, socio-emotional,psychological, because,

(45:37):
depending on where they'recoming from, coming here will
impact them differently.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
Yes, and there's different dynamics in each
family structure.
Oh, my goodness, I, I, I'mtelling you as I have started to
go through my own diggingdeeper in myself.
I tell her there are books, somany books.
I can't stop writing.
When you think about thepositive and healthy sense of

(46:10):
what exists in communalcommunities, but on the outside
of that, the trauma and thedysfunctions and all of the bad
stuff that happens in thesilence that exists in some of
these communities where thingshappen and people are not given
the space to speak up becausethe magoshim is a person here,

(46:33):
and all of the reasons whypeople are told not to speak up,
because the Mago Shem there's aperson here, and all of the
reasons why people are told notto speak up.
I think America is the placewhere people come.
You lose yourself to findyourself.
That has been my journey losingmyself and then coming home and
finally deciding look here now.
This is a part of the Jamaicanculture.

(46:53):
I don't like it, I'm going toleave this behind and I'm going
to get the choice to do that.
I mean, look here now.
Whether it's the family dynamic, the community dynamic, the
friend dynamic, whatever dynamic, everybody come in.
You know, whatever connectionsyou have, you get the choice to
say look here, now, this sort ofdysfunction that exists with
this person, I don't want it nomore, it's harming me, it's

(47:16):
causing me trauma, and I get tochoose to love you from afar.
That's where the boundariescome in because, listen, you
cannot be healthy and functionand serve, serve, really serve
and have community and socialimpact if you're not healthy.
Right, because the type ofpressures that exist in America,

(47:37):
where you have to performprofessionally parenting, carry
your host and a lot of times youand your spouse are doing it
all alone.
So you have to have a certainlevel of stability and integrity
, personal integrity, and thatis the journey that you go on to
send me.
I excavate some of them, someof them here are going to serve

(47:59):
me, and I also get to choosesome of the things from the
Western or the individualisticculture and say look, you know,
this whole idea of boundaries isvery important.
This idea of identity isimportant.
This idea of self-care isimportant, this idea of me
aspiring and achieving somethingto be fulfilled, to have very

(48:22):
strong personal integrity andstanding who I am and shining
who God made me to be and whatmy purpose here is and in that

(48:44):
is, know what flows out of thecup is yours.
You know, ian Levan's aunt saidwhat's in the cup is mine and
what flows out of the cup is foreverybody else.
But I think when you come fromcollectivist cultures, that
whole dynamic is like everythingin the cup is everybody else
and there's a lot ofdysfunctions that goes on with

(49:05):
that, and I'm sure some peoplemight disagree with me,
depending on where they are intheir own journey.
But listen, this is where I am.
I have had to walk through somevery challenging experiences
where I'm just I'm crippled, Ican't get out of bed.
I'm trying to seek validation,the people pleasing, and some of

(49:30):
them don't care.
They want you to continue toplay the role that you've always
played in that, whatevercommunity or setting you're
coming from.
They want you to, and some ofthem are abusive.
Some of them take advantage ofour hard work here when we're
overseas, the amount of storiespeople will tell you, just so
they can't get money, the liesand the stuff and they say but

(49:53):
you don't care about me, butthey're here and I'm struggling
to make sure all the bills thatme have to take care of pay my
own house.
You take the money and go buyiPhone and me not even have
iPhone.
You want me to buy you namebrand something and me buy the
brandless something so me cansave up and be able to have
social impact and give back, butyou want me to buy you brand,

(50:16):
name brand stuff.
It's so much complexity in theexperience of people, who they
are foreign and the expectationsfrom everybody back home.
I'm telling you you do get tochoose who become.
The person you're becoming thishybrid, this third culture
person.
You get to decide what goesinto that pot.

(50:37):
Yeah, it's not passive.
You have to be very active inworking on yourself and going
deep, deep, deep.
And I'm telling you it's noteasy.
No, because sometimes, when youstart changing people, not go
like it.
Yeah, because you're going tobe becoming somebody and you're
stepping out of the role thatthey've always known you to fit

(50:57):
in.
That keeps them comfortable andkeep you in a place that they
can manipulate you however theywant manipulate you or however
it makes them feel comfortable.
So, people, you, it's a journey.
You gotta be prepared.
I've gone on my own journey andthat's probably one of the most
important thing that qualifiesme to walk on the journey with

(51:19):
another person because I'm I'mstill on it.
It's not easy because there'sso many cultural expectations
for people who come from otherplaces and are now in the west
where you know the supposedabundance but people don't
understand.
So we have to buy everythingwhen we eat.
We can't go outside and go picka mango.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Listen, I cannot go to Miss Simone and say Miss
Simone, hey, the breadfruit thatlook like it, good it turn.
You know you can't pick thebreadfruit, so we can't go roast
it.
Yes, right, or oi, miss Simone.
Missy too, aki, pan the tree.
We can't get the aki them Right, a mango season in Jamaica.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Now you walk past somebody mango and the mango
them just a drop off and youjust pick some of them and have
no problem with it.
Yeah, it's a different worldhere, yeah, so you have to adapt
to your new environment and nowdevise a new plan for you to be
healthy so that you, in turn,can be healthy and strong in

(52:20):
integrity for everybody else whodepend upon you.
Right, because not everybodynot going to come here and I
encourage some people who areoverseas consider if you have
psychological safety in Jamaicaor some other place where you're
from.
Daydreaming about being inAmerica is not for the week.

(52:42):
You know it's not for the weekand people think so they won't
come here.
So there's a girl, a Jamaicangirl, online who talked about
when she go to the store themtell her she can't get cash back
on our card.
And she said oh, I saw peopleget rich.
You never see it.
You never see it.
I was cracking up becausepeople come and they don't

(53:05):
understand the way the systemworks.
I'm serious.
This is complexity, yeah, andit takes us who've walked the
journey, to help people tounravel it, to decode it, to
make healthier decisions so thatthey can leave a legacy for
people coming behind them oreven impact other people who are

(53:25):
looking to them.
Because you know one of myguests on the podcast and listen
.
She says she come over on aplane and she don't want to go
back on a boat.
So if you don't have a plan foryour money when you come in,
you can't stay there.
Go buy the rent, the Mercedesand living at a big house and do
it in debt and you spend 20, 30years at payback how many times

(53:46):
over?
And you end up with nothingsaved up.
So you have to be smart aboutthis.
But listen, let's continue theconversation because it's so
needed and you know that there'sso much that's taboo in our
culture is that people just, youknow everybody just come on
them, smile, likes everythingAll right, but the one, you know

(54:07):
, some people in a period andI'm just, I'm scared for talk
and said no, you can't behavethat way, it hurt me.
Yeah, you can't carry on thatway there.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Simone, you've covered so much, right, our
respective work is complimentary, but handling so many things,
so, like we talked about thestarting points, depending on
the age you come, it's going toimpact your journey You've
talked about.
You know your identity willshift.
That's the point.
That's okay, right?
You, if you live here for acertain time, it's going to

(54:37):
evolve.
It's going to change yourconnection to culture you talked
about and I will send you thenewsletter because I promise you
every a lot of things.
I sent a newsletter a couple ofweeks ago and I asked people
what aspects of your culture areyou leaving behind?
Some of it was keeping up withmusic and some of it is like
some of these behaviors that youtalked about.

(54:58):
We don't want to do that.
We don't want to keep up withit again, Right?
So there are aspects of that.
As you mature, as you navigate,as you become a parent and all
of these things, yourperspective is going to change.
You talked about work.
That's one of the big things.
Culture impacts how we show upat work.
And then there are aspects thatyou I identify, that you talked

(55:21):
about, which I totally believethat we should go into this
transnational finance andsupporting people in multiple
locations and all the burdensand the pressures that come with
that.
A friend of mine, mikey T, hehas a short out called Beg your
Car and it was around the storyof, you know, getting phone

(55:44):
calls, this, this, have to payfor this, need to do, and all of
that.
And it made me take a step backand say, before I came to
America, was I such a nuisanceto my uncles when I first came,
before I came here?
You know so, and the pressuresthat they have to face, you know
, because when rent due, rentdue you know what I'm saying JPS

(56:09):
might take a week to come.
Cut off the lights, you know,over here is immediate.
Yes, it's true it's true, it'strue.
So all of these things.
So we definitely shouldcontinue the conversation Before
we end, because we're going tohave a little labrish after.
Do you have a hope for thefuture?

(56:29):
Is there?
You know, we came up here inthe last 20 to 30 years, right,
because they are 30 plus years.
Anybody coming now do you feellike there's hope for them
having a better chance ofnavigating the immigrant
identity and the experienceversus when we came here 20, 30

(56:51):
years ago?

Speaker 2 (56:53):
Well, you know what there's hope for?
The fact that there's me andyou, if nothing else.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
Boom.
See it there.
See it there, they have guide.
Now, we never have guide, so webecome the serpent and our
parents.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
They came older and they have months to feed.
They've never had the luxury togo, study and read and do all
of them something that we'vebeen fortunate to do.
So it's I.
I counted a privilege, yes, aprivilege to be in this position
, to have experienced this.
To decode it it's, it was partof what was meant to happen.

(57:31):
But we are here, we are on theair, there's social media, we
have podcasts, we're getting theword out there and there's
actually a few other people thatI know who have different
angles of this.
Focusing corporate Immigrantsin corporate is one that comes
to mind Immigrant finance, a fewother people.

(57:52):
Right, I've gained so manyresources of books on my shelf
here, of people who've mailed mebooks and people who've said,
oh, simone, since I've been onyour podcast, you know you've
inspired me to kind of look atour community as immigrants and
how, what angle I can be ofsupport to our community and so

(58:12):
it's growing.
So it's not going to be as hard.
All we need to do is to get theword out and make sure that
people in other places are ableto access and hear the
conversations.
But unfortunately, no, there'shope, it's not.
Unfortunately, there is a lotof hope because of these
platforms social media andeverything that we are now able

(58:34):
to do that generations beforewere not.
And you know when I think aboutI watched Marcus Garvey's story
on YouTube and then I went to apresentation in downtown
Atlanta a month or two ago abouthis life story and to think he
came over on a ship and theamazing galvanization that he

(58:58):
was able to do without socialmedia and some of the tools that
we had, and the amount ofimpact and influence and legacy
that he's left.
Listen, there's so much hope andinformation, the age of
information and just so muchexperience to share.

(59:18):
So let's carry on, friendsright, and keep sharing, keep
sharing and talking and lettingpeople know that it's okay to
let that little light.
You know that little hole therethat just hurt.
I don't know why, when somebodysays something, it just, you
know, feel little hole therethat just hurt.
I don't know why, when somebodysays something, it just feels
right in your body.
You just notice something off,it touches you at a tender spot

(59:40):
and you may get anger.
Afterwards you might feel allsorts of other emotions coming
up and you can't figure out whydid this touch me?
So you know what I mean.
I'm just so moved by thisbecause I feel like there is so
much healing that is happeningwith the work that we're doing.
There's so much hope movingforward and I'm so energized to

(01:00:02):
continue to learn more, to havemore conversations, to do more
research and to help people comehome to themselves, to heal, to
embrace their superpower ofbeing a third culture person and
to help those going on thejourney afresh.
They might be able to do it inway faster times than you and I

(01:00:22):
were.
You know they don't have to gothrough all of them pitfalls and
the mistakes that we made, andI've always wanted to do kind of
something we'll talk about,about really kind of dramatizing
, acting out Like if you findyourself in this scenario at
work.
These are ways that you couldrespond.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
Simone, may I ask you something?
We have the same brain.
Listen, a couple of years agothey had this thing, where you
know, and I posted it on social,like I was going to do like
Caribbean Incorporate, rightwhen you know, the co-worker
come with the fish and I warm upand we're going to tell the

(01:01:05):
co-worker I said my girl, I know.
I said the steam fish did nice,but no, bring it in here, so
don't do it.
You know like somebody saidsomething to you and you want to
respond, and in my mind, yourmind is saying all of the things

(01:01:25):
all of the torii was say, andthen you're cut to what you're
actually supposed to say in thatscenario and it's a form of,
like you said, they're examples.
Nobody's not really catering tous this way, and so sometimes
we have to give people the toolsto say, okay, while you want to
tell them about the what's it,what's it not.

(01:01:47):
Let us not use that and calmdown, and I think it's a
brilliant idea.
I mean a lot of synergies inthe work that we do, and so I'm
really excited that you knowyou're doing this work for
immigrants broadly Me I focusprobably Caribbean people, which
is which is again socomplimentary, and I know that

(01:02:10):
it is a reason why we find eachother and we're having this
conversation.
So, before we go Labrisha alittle bit more.
Tell the people then where theycould find you on the internet.
I hope they connect with you.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
Sure, sure, sure.
Thank you for the exposure andall and opening up your space.
I much appreciate it.
So you can find me on LinkedInright Under my name, say here,
simone W Johnson Smith.
Find me on LinkedIn.
On Instagram, tiktok it's theImmigrant Experience Podcast.
Just search, you'll find methere.

(01:02:44):
And then on YouTube, sameImmigrant Experience Podcast.
You can find our page onYouTube and we have our business
website.
Find our page on YouTube and wehave our business website.
It's thebridgeconceptsorg,where you'll find all of our
everything our course coaching.
My book is available onlineeverywhere.
Books are sold online and youknow.

(01:03:09):
Sign up for my newsletter.
I have a free guide on therethat talks about finding
belonging as an immigrant andwhat's that like, because it's a
big deal.
You know, not fitting in andjust feeling like you don't know
what your identity is anymoreis a big deal.
So check out the guide and getsome insight.
Sign up for the newsletter.
We do a weekly newsletter.
So, again, thebridgeconceptsorg, and you'll find us on TikTok,

(01:03:40):
youtube, instagram and I'malways on LinkedIn more than any
place.
But we need some more hands.
The thing I grew, I grew up.
We need some more hands.
I don't know how I'll keep upwith all of this Right and still
working full time with thefamily.
So if anybody interested andyou want, you you're really
passionate about this type ofwork.
So if anybody interested andyou want, you're really
passionate about this type ofwork, listen, let's collaborate
with Carrie-Anne, figure out away how we can spread the word,
because people need thisinformation.

(01:04:01):
It's so important.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
Yes, it is All right, and so I'll make sure I put
Simone's information in the shownotes.
Me and Argo still leverage fora little bit.
You could join our communityand hear the after show, but for
right now, until next time,walk good.