November 25, 2025 • 49 mins
If you’ve ever wondered why Caribbean-American media still rents space on other people’s platforms, this conversation goes straight to the root: ownership, organization, and the business engine behind our stories.
In this special episode in partnership with WhereItzAt Magazine, I sit down with two veteran publishers - Clive Williams of Where It’s At Magazine and Herman Hall of Everybody’s Magazine; to map what it takes to build power: an association with teeth, a revenue model that outlasts trends, and alliances that turn small outlets into a market force.
We dig into the tough stuff too: why advertisers often ignore Caribbean audiences, how tourist boards spend outside the community, and what data and collaboration it takes to win budgets back. Real stories from missed chances to buy stations to the WLIB legacy reveal how fragmentation costs us and how shared platforms can change the math.
Call it a blueprint for the next wave: set clear priorities, package real audience insights, and pool resources like other communities do. If we want equity and visibility, we need leverage media kits with proof, sales teams that go to market together, and partnerships that protect voice while scaling reach. By the end, you’ll see a path from consumer to producer, from renting attention to owning distribution. Subscribe, share this with a creator or marketer who needs to hear it, and leave a review with one action you’ll take to support Caribbean-owned media.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hello everyone, welcome back to this special
series brought to you by CarryOn Friends in partnership with
Where It's Not Magazine.
And I'm excited to have Mr.
Clive Williams, the publisher ofWhere It's Not Magazine, a
publication that's been aroundfor 22 years.
And with me also Herman Hogg,the publisher of Everybody's
Magazine, a publication that'sbeen around for 48 years.
(00:22):
And so in this conversation, I'mgoing to talk to these two
stalwars, these legends, abouttheir work in Caribbean-American
media and where we're comingfrom, where we are, and their
hopes for where we can go.
So welcome, gentlemen.
I'm so excited to have thisconversation with you both.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
Thank you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:43):
All right.
So, Mr.
Williams, I'm gonna start withyou.
Um what is your feeling in thismoment about Caribbean-American
media and the media spacelargely?
SPEAKER_02 (00:57):
It makes me want to start something.
I always want to startsomething.
It makes me question the factwhy don't we have a
recognizable, workable,practical Caribbean American
Media Association?
Why didn't anybody start?
(01:18):
I've said to my son on a numberof occasions, why don't we get
an association started?
And I started making the moves,and I realized, as I realize in
most things, that I'm gonna endup doing all the work.
And I'm sure Herman findshimself in that position.
He he the idea is there, we wewant to bring people together,
(01:41):
we we see the potential.
But when the rubber meets theroad, it's left to us.
And we are I know for me,Herman.
I mean, we we've beencollectively, right?
We've both been publishing for70 years.
Yeah.
I mean, it's something like inin today's day, that's not too
long.
Right.
But it's it's a big chunk of ourlives, too, right?
(02:04):
And um, look, 48 years, I Idon't usually take a backseat to
anybody, but I'm taking abackseat to this man because I
watched him work eight years.
And he's a pioneer.
I stand where it's at stands onhis shoulders.
Yeah.
Right?
And we need to recognize thatfor the sacrifices that he made,
(02:26):
we were able to come into themarketplace.
It's it's uh what am I thinkingright now as to the state of the
media?
Uh we need to be organized.
We we need young people.
Uh I I think many people uh whenthey want to be a journalist,
(02:46):
they think of a journalismcareer as being a writer and so
forth.
But why aren't people thinkingin terms of journalism as a
business?
And that's this is where I thinkwe should start thinking, right?
Think of journalism as abusiness.
Why if if I were to get theopportunity now to speak to some
(03:08):
college graduates who areembarking on this journalism
career, I'd say to them, look,why don't you look at your
neighborhood, look where youlive, and start a newsletter
that deals with the issues andthe concerns and the problems
that's happening in your neck ofthe woods.
Start your newsletter there.
And that can grow into becauseI've, you know, I'll come to
(03:31):
that.
That can sort of push youforward in in your journalism
career doing your ownnewsletter.
Then that newsletter becomeswhat?
A magazine or a newspaper.
So you know, it there are anumber of things that are really
happening in my head that shouldbe taking place in the business
(03:52):
now.
But then you you put behind thatthe economic situation in which
we live.
Yeah.
And those realities havechanged.
And this is why Herman and Iknow we have to think of
different ways as to how we canmonetize what we have.
SPEAKER_00 (04:09):
I have so many questions I want to follow up
on.
Why a media association?
Why do you think that it couldbe beneficial to us in this day
and age?
Um yeah, let's start there.
SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
You want to go first?
No, you can go.
Strength in numbers, power in inassociations.
Um when you are a cohesivegroup, you benefit from that by
the flow of ideas, the exchangeof ideas.
(04:42):
And you also convey to thecommunity that there is
cohesiveness.
People are serious about theirbusiness, that you're an
organization.
Then you'll be able to lobby forsupport.
Um, you'll be able to uh makeinroads in the so-called
bureaucracy once you are anassociation.
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Herman, when we were working together, we you know,
uh in 2007, 2008, media wasn'tthe what it is, what it is now
then, and we had to deal withchanging, digitizing the the
website of the magazine.
And so technology is a bigdisruptor in this space.
(05:30):
And so what does technology playin the future or or the state of
Caribbean?
I hate I don't like to say thestate of Caribbean media, but
what role does technology play?
Because you said start anewsletter.
Most people just want to use thesocial media platforms and not
necessarily own anything.
So I'm curious about from yourperspective, because you've been
(05:53):
a publisher the longest, therole technology plays in the
evolution uh and the sustainablepotential sustainability as of
Caribbean media as a whole.
SPEAKER_01 (06:03):
Well, no, technology is everything now.
Everything, especially you go ininto the era now of AI,
artificial intelligence.
But yet on the other hand, um,you like saying the human body,
the human body cannot existwithout flaw of blood.
So writing always be a part ofjournalism.
(06:27):
But on the other hand, formingan association is rather
challenging.
You have to be really at it, andit also will end up most of the
time in the hands of the personwho came up with the idea.
And especially now, the media isnot as dependent on each other
(06:51):
as before.
Now, in the head of the 80s,when various United States
administrations, whether theywere Democratic administrations
or Republican administrations,when they thought that the
Caribbean was on fire, the daysof Manly, the days of Maurice
(07:11):
Bishop, Justin X and Castro, andso forth, when they thought the
Caribbean was going too much tothe left, there was some sort of
Caribbean American JournalismAssociation, which I knew they
brought everybody together, butwe knew I could have figured out
who was behind it because weknew it was not us, it was
(07:34):
somebody within the USorganization, a bureaucracy that
would have to bring up to get tohandpick people's brain.
But now, so that failedobviously because it was not
created genuinely.
But now in this age of, again,technology and digital and
(07:56):
everything, we don't need eachother as before, so we may not
find a need for those sort ofjournalism organizations.
Let us say the NationalAssociation of Black
Journalists.
Now, I am a member of theNational Association of Black
Journalists.
As a matter of fact, I am arecipient of a National
(08:18):
Association of Black JournalistsAward when I won the award for
foreign reporting as a result ofthe death of Bob Marley and Dr.
Eric Williams.
And that was in 1982.
Now, the National Association ofBlack Journalists was created by
(08:38):
print journalists.
There was a man named Les Painfrom Long Island.
He was the editor with Gil Nobleand so forth.
Les Payne was the editor of NewsDay when News Day was at its
heights in Long Island.
Now, the person who put, if youcan say the National Association
(09:00):
of Black Journalists on the mapagain, you may not agree or
disagree with me, was none otherthan President Trump.
Because last year during thepresidential election, when the
National Association of BlackJournalists invited President
Trump to come to address thebody, then suddenly everybody
(09:24):
heard about the NationalAssociation of Black
Journalists.
And when you look at theinterview, the people from the
National Association of BlackJournalists who interviewed the
president or the formerpresident then, well, the
president now, they are all fromthe national news media.
They did not have anyone fromthe print media.
(09:46):
From the black print media.
So basically, the NationalAssociation of Black Journalists
is hijacked right now because itconsists of the Krim, the Black
Cream, if you want to say blackcream, meaning the people, the
black who is on CNN, maybe Fox,NBC, CBS, and so forth.
(10:08):
So they are the principalorganizers right now.
So yes, there will be a need,maybe a young group in different
generations, may under theguidance of Dr.
Williams here, may beinterested.
Um we come up with an idea, butit's a rather challenging
effort.
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
You said that we don't need or depend or work
with each other as much as wedo, but here we are carrying our
friends and where it's at.
Magazine, do you think thatpeople think they don't need
each other?
But we in some ways we still doneed some level of
collaboration.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Well, yeah, what I really meant was that we don't,
I was talking about the mediahouses.
Okay.
So years ago, to get the latestnews from Trinidad of Barbados
at Jamaica, you needed theadvocate, the cleaner, or
whatever, the guardian inTrinidad.
But now, this afternoon ortomorrow morning, you could
(11:06):
bypass all of those media andthrough Facebook and social
media get in tune directly withthe radio station or the
television station back inKingston or in Bridgetown.
So this is what I really meant.
SPEAKER_00 (11:21):
Okay, got it.
And so your thought on okay, wemay not depend on each other in
that traditional sense, but howcan Caribbean media still
collaborate and work together tokind of form a coalition?
SPEAKER_02 (11:34):
We we we're it's interesting that you say that.
I'm not at liberty to callnames, but we're constantly in
pursuit of that kind ofcollaboration because we believe
that collaboration is strength.
Uh, you know, I I I know whereHerman is coming from, and in a
way he's kind of doing a deviladvocacy advocacy situation.
(11:54):
He's saying, you know, give himthe situation that is at hand
where we're we're not thatcohesive because of the various
platforms.
Uh I'm saying that there needsto be a new thinking that
somebody should make some ofthese platforms cohesive.
And we're taking a step to dothat.
(12:17):
We have um we are now in talksto um get together with another
platform, because each platform,as you would imagine, has its
followers.
And and if one could I andpretty much when you look at at
American business, the Americanbusiness model, what you see is
(12:39):
a situation where there are,even though technology is there
to drive much of what we do,there is a willingness of
companies in theirself-interest, in their own
self-interest, and in in theinterest of their longevity to
come together.
We were seeing that all over.
The car companies uh over overtime have done that because
(13:03):
right now they're just three carcompanies.
You know, what what hashappened?
Chrysler, Dodge, they've becomestill antis, right?
Um so and and that's in Europe.
So the fact is that there is anappetite to come together.
It's to find the incentive, themotive to do that.
(13:25):
And and I'm motivated to dothat.
And it's it's uh it has to be amindset and it has to be, we
have to be driven to a largeextent in self-interest.
If we want to survive, we've gotto make sure you survive.
SPEAKER_00 (13:38):
Got it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:40):
Glad you you mentioned that.
Again, what you're asking,unfortunately, is part of
Caribbean tradition, even thoughit's not positive, where we are
actually divided each island toitself.
So politically is divided,economically, socially, and so
forth.
So when it comes to journalism,it's the same, is it's basically
(14:04):
the same thing.
Um yet there are ethnic groupshere that uh um work together,
other racial groups fromnationals.
For example, there is a freenewspaper distributed all over
New York City.
Um Caribbean newspaper, and isdistributed for free.
(14:25):
They are owned by 20, they arethey are part of 25 other
newspapers or more, a bigconglomerate.
Actually, there were one timethe report moderate companies
that own that newspaper of whichit was part of a conglomerate,
right?
But they they work togetherbecause it's the same ownership.
(14:49):
They could get the big, big ads.
And we we it's free for free.
And we believe we have no ideathat these people are not, it's
not locally owned.
They make a big profit everyyear.
But on the other hand, we don'twork together.
I I recall, I think it may bethe late 70s, early 80s, I went
(15:11):
to Chicago.
In those days, black advertisingagencies were the peak.
And I went to Chicago and I metwith two or three of the black
advertising agencies.
And I came back and I met withthe publisher of a
Caribbean-American tabloid righthere in Brooklyn.
(15:34):
And said, Well, I just cameback.
This is what we should do.
We should all work together andgo jointly and make our case to
these advertising agencies whythey should advertise us.
And the first thing the personsaid to me, the publisher said,
Listen, if you get it, I may notget that, you know, I want to do
my own thing because if we gotogether, you may get, I may not
(16:00):
get.
So, so you know, every so we arenot divided, we are not united,
we can work together.
But as I said, I mean, there isthere's a lot of, for example,
there's a lot of Jewishpublications, right?
In New York City and around theUnited States.
(16:20):
Some are very small, some aregrassroots, some are very big.
We don't see them.
But you know what?
There is a platform, they allwork together for the common
good.
And then they get theadvertisements.
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
Yeah.
So between both of you, you'veseen many Caribbean media
companies, not just publishers,but like a lot of media come and
go in the many years.
SPEAKER_02 (16:47):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
And I mean, we're we're laughing, but it's not
funny either because, and I andI guess as technology has come
about, you know, many peoplehave their own platforms via
social media.
But when we think about the waythat right now other communities
have their own channels and, youknow, Caribbean media is still
(17:11):
leasing, maybe on whateverplatform, what does it take for
Caribbean media to anchor itselfthe way other communities and
other um ethnicities are havedone?
Because I believe that we're ina place for that.
A lot of times I look at the UKand how established it is in
terms of the Caribbean presenceand, you know, the way that
(17:35):
Caribbean people have begunmigration here before they've
really gone to the UK and we'renot established or set up in the
same way.
So I'm curious, what does ittake for us to have like maybe
our own channel, our ownanchored media platforms that
serve the community?
What does it take for that?
And and the lessons of maybemedia companies that have passed
(18:00):
that we can learn from.
So let's start there.
Lessons that you've learned frommedia companies that have come
and go and how this could helpus solidify ourselves or a more
grounded network or other mediaplatform.
SPEAKER_02 (18:12):
But you know, I I want to start at all with with
an experience and a story.
Uh Connecticut School ofBroadcasting, I used to teach
there.
I went there, as a matter offact, as part of my my
experience.
And um while teaching there, Idiscovered an interesting source
(18:34):
of information that we would umget information as to what radio
stations at the time as involvedin radio, right, are on the
block, what's up for sale.
And I would pass thisinformation on to my colleagues
who were in the business ofradio at the time.
(18:55):
And it's interesting that uh oneof the buys that escaped us was
a well-known radio station thatwas up for sale back in the 90s.
And um it was a Caribbeanplatform for the most part.
(19:20):
And I took it upon myself.
Uh having had the experiencewith being an Avtra member, I
met an attorney.
This is a union that used tocover people in acting and and
radio and so forth.
And I met a young attorney andum a young Hispanic attorney,
(19:42):
and we we talked, and I told himthat, look, uh a lot of
Jamaicans, uh Trinidad and soforth, Bayans, uh own time on
leash radio.
But we need to get together anduh get a platform for ourselves.
And he said to me, Look, if youcan uh get people together, a
(20:07):
group of people together, uh Ican look at possible membership
so that you you guys will havesome sort of security.
Instead of being on a leaseplatform this week and next week
you're off.
I says, Great.
I then used my initiative, goton to the uh Broadcasters
(20:30):
Association, New YorkBroadcasters Association, spoke
to the then president who said,Look, if you can get together a
group of your pet folks, wecould get you some kind of
leverage if and and get you inas members of the association.
Might not be full members, mightbe associate membership, but
(20:53):
that would help.
I did all that.
And then I put out the word thatlet's meet because I have good
news.
We are we have an opportunitynow to become legitimate uh
members of the media, thebroadcast media in New York.
(21:14):
We set a meeting time.
One person showed up.
So we go back to Herman'sargument about getting together,
getting some kind ofcohesiveness, getting some kind
of agreement as to who shouldlead.
What that tells me, and thelesson I learned from that, is
(21:36):
uh and and we say colloquially,it's a crab in a barrel
mentality.
Okay?
Uh uh an expression, an adagewhich I I hate with a passion,
because I think it's because welack information.
Simply because we lackinformation, it's not because we
don't have the will.
(21:56):
We lack information as to whatis required of us.
Now, many of the people who havegotten into the media, they uh
practice as journalists, havestudied journalism, but they
have no sort of businessbackground.
They don't have a peoplebackground either.
In other words, the the personalrelationships, how to operate in
(22:19):
that medium.
And so I think it's ignorance.
And uh this is why Chris, myson, and I are on a mission to
just inform people.
I think the more you informpeople, the more they know what
is required of them, that thisis a process that at some point
is going to lead to a memorandumof agreement, which is something
we just recently done withanother media association.
(22:44):
Understanding that how we dobusiness, we've got to do it
like how other people dobusiness, how Jewish folks do
business, how white folks dobusiness.
We've got to start doingbusiness that way instead of
saying, okay, let's try a thing.
So I think it's it it's gettingthe sophistication, right?
Just getting a little bit moresophisticated instead of trying
(23:06):
a thing is what will bringunity, a sense of purpose, and
and some accomplishment.
I I think Herman and I haveworked hard, set a foundation,
and I think from that people,just by watching maybe this
conversation, people understandthat look, especially in these
(23:29):
very challenging times, somemany times uh adversity is the
mother of an invention.
All right?
And I think the adversity thatwe face now is going to force us
to coalesce.
We've got to coalesce.
And people are seeing that,they're understanding it.
So the time is is near.
(23:49):
We might grow impatient, but Ithink that time will come when
we understand, and Chris, like Isaid, we're doing it.
We are forging a relationshipnow with another media company,
and we're gonna make sure thatthat works.
Other people will see it andthey will begin to say, well,
you know, maybe this is the waywe should go.
And even if even if we're notconvinced, the economic
(24:11):
situation that exists now isgoing to force us into
partnerships.
SPEAKER_01 (24:16):
I just want you to touch before you mention about
the business.
You see, again, Koreanimmigrants, uh, Korean
Americans, we still still seeourselves to a certain extent as
nine to five people.
So in a sense, those of us whoare in the media, the viewer or
(24:39):
the listener, the reader, theydon't see they don't see what we
do as a business.
They see uh what we do as ahobby, they figure we have
another job.
So they so overall they don'ttake ultra so seriously as they
should.
And again, it goes back, youknow, to how we think, how we
(25:02):
colonialism.
You know, we tend to blamehistory, we may blame, but
again, we're no longer living ina colonial times.
So it's about time that weunderstand our face reality.
But at the same time, you dohave people out there, I mean,
who we say, well, yeah, we knowyou do a magazine, but what is
(25:25):
your real job?
You know, yeah, and and let'sface it, yeah, the closest
ownership of Caribbean owningsomething was a radio station
called WLIB Radio.
Now, while it is true, WLIBRadio, like Carver Savings Bank,
(25:45):
is basically the founders wereAfrican Americans and Caribbean
Americans.
So the chairman of the board ofWLIB Radio was Dr.
Dr.
Benjamin Watkins when PercySutton was then borough
president.
There was Dr.
Muriel Pechone, she was aphysician of Malcolm X.
(26:08):
These were Caribbean people whowere owners and
African-Americans who wereowners of WLIB radio.
So when the WLIB went Caribbean,the first thing my Caribbean
folks were saying, Possiblysuddenly was running for mayor,
so he's using the LIB to garnervotes.
So then years later, LIBcontinued.
(26:30):
But what happened?
The Jamaicans say it's too muchcalypso.
The Trinidadans is saying toomuch Jamaicans.
The Grenadians are calling me at4 a.m.
in the morning to tell me Idon't play no Grenadian music,
even though I'm not a DJ.
And in those days, we didn'teven have a carry uh a Grenadian
album.
So it's every man for his soinpoints, and then everything got
(26:53):
underway.
One time I was with theHonorable Posse Sutton, who was
again the Manhattan Ballpresident for several years, and
he actually was again MalcolmX's lawyer.
So he's talking about big, bigman.
So one Friday, he said, Herman,let us take a drive down to
Brooklyn.
He wanted to visit to get theviews of WLIB radio.
(27:16):
So he had his driver, and wewent to a record store on Fulton
Street, Charlie, my friend,Charlie Record Store, and he
shook everybody's hand and hesaid, How is the radio station
doing?
And two guys said, You'retalking about the Jamaican radio
station.
And it was so insultive and soobscene and so bad.
(27:36):
So this is so so in 2025, herewe are talking about something
that should have been settled along time ago.
So, so it's another generation.
Um maybe Dr.
Williamson, a younger generationwho may come up with some new
creativity and bring everybodytogether, you know, um, to work
(28:00):
to work it as a business.
Because again, remember, thelargest circulated
Caribbean-American publicationin New York City is not even
owned by black, not even ownedby Caribbean people.
But yet every Thursday orTuesday, whenever we run and
(28:21):
grab it.
And it's a piece of rubbish thatis there, it's just used
releases.
But this is what we like, youknow, and so forth.
So I so we really have first ofall have to look at it as a
business.
Your show, for example, we haveto look at it as a business, not
something you do when you comefrom work.
And this is what people believe.
(28:42):
So we have to change themindset, the analogy.
Absolutely.
The readers, the viewer, and ifwe of ourselves who are trying
to be producers or who areproducers and publishers and
editors, we have to rememberit's a business.
It's it's basically what it is.
We pay taxes, we have to giveaccount of everything.
SPEAKER_00 (29:02):
Absolutely.
With the business, you've got totalk about the A-word.
Advertisers.
They weave.
I've observed Herman, and I'msure I've heard um I've heard
stories, Mr.
Williams.
I've constantly heard, oh, wedon't need to advertise to the
(29:23):
Caribbean audience.
Ugh.
SPEAKER_01 (29:25):
We have customers.
SPEAKER_00 (29:26):
Yeah, you know, Caribbean, that's that's not
innovative.
You know, oh, you know, whateverwe advertise to the black
audience, Caribbean.
What are advertisers gettingwrong about the community?
And does the community play arole in how advertisers treat
us?
I don't I don't know the answer.
I'm just asking because you bothhave a lot of experience and
(29:49):
more conversation withadvertisers.
I know from my podcast, it'slike, you know, I don't know
what to tell you about it.
But, you know, it's it'schallenging.
And I think there's Like yousaid, lack of information about
who this group of people are andwhat they want.
And, you know, so let's talkabout advertisers.
Who wants to start?
What's the problem?
(30:09):
What's the issue?
SPEAKER_02 (30:10):
You know, again, uh, let me tell you how I go about
it.
When I started WearTack, I wastold first of all that that's
gonna fail.
Yeah.
Right?
I remember a dear friend of mineand and a brother in uh in a
fraternity.
Uh he looked at me and he says,Um, you're a black man, right?
(30:35):
He's part Asian, right?
And um you wanna start amagazine in New York City,
right?
Yes.
He says, Do you realize thatthis is the biggest media market
in the world?
So why would you wanna do that?
(30:57):
Okay.
Uh now uh for me, and this ispersonal, I took that
personally.
And I decided that, okay, thatmade up my mind.
This is something that I've gotto do because it means that
somebody and he was verysuccessful, very successful
restaurateur.
(31:18):
And um for him to say that butwhen he came into the business
that he was in, he wasn't theonly guy.
Uh the restaurant business isone of the biggest businesses in
any city that you go to.
And he went in head first and hesucceeded.
I says, Okay, I'm gonna do whatyou did.
(31:40):
So unbeknownst to him, I lookedat his model as motivation for
my model.
And I started, and we drove thatmodel forward.
Now the point I'm making, I wentfrom door to door, and I mean
from business to business.
I went to hairdressers, I wentto barbers, I didn't know.
(32:04):
Um, but I knew.
And I spoke to them, introducedthe magazine to them.
I even went further.
Uh and and we we might talkabout this i in in in a further
conversation.
But one of the things I madesure to do is to approach some
of the people who had businessesthat were doing reasonably well
in the community.
(32:25):
I says, Look, um do you want toadvertise with us?
Well, I've been getting alongokay without advertising.
You do realize, of course, thatit gives you a presence in a
community, it gives you a name,enhances your your your your
look in the community.
(32:47):
Um word of mouth.
I says, but guess what?
There are competitors who arecoming in taking a little bit
from you every week, everymonth, and that adds up to
something.
I didn't convince, and thesewere colleagues of mine.
I didn't convince them, so Isays, Here's what give me your
(33:07):
ad.
And I did better than that.
I designed the ads for them, andI put it in where it's at.
And I says, I'm gonna run itfree for the next few months.
If you get response, I'm sureyou'll continue.
And that was how I initially,and by the way, we are not
selling where it's at, we aregiving it to the community for
(33:31):
free.
So when people people thoughtthat I was rich.
And this is the mentality.
People thought that how can yoube giving away this paper?
And uh but I said to andexplained to them the truth, I
says, Look, this is leveraged byuh Mr.
Hall down the road, whosebusiness you support, and he's
(33:54):
supporting you back so that youcan get this magazine for free.
And so it was by hard work goingliterally from business to
business, we call that coldcalling in this in the business
of direct selling, right?
And from cold calling and fromgiving away ads, I started
(34:15):
building a little franchise, andpeople developed a trust.
And after that trust wasdeveloped, that bond, we became
uh a credible uh publication,people started giving us more
support.
Now, does any young person, doesthis generation, have the
(34:38):
appetite for that?
Okay.
So this but this this is thechallenge that that that we
face.
SPEAKER_01 (34:45):
Yeah, but yeah, well, yeah, locally, uh what you
are seeing, and advertisers,especially on the local level,
they have to begin to have acertain amount of confidence.
But what we don't also look atis the Caribbean of itself.
Caribbean in the Caribbean, I'mtalking about the businesses.
They talk about how important isthe Caribbean American community
(35:11):
or the Canadian AmericanCaribbean community is good.
The the money they sent home andso forth, fine.
But these Caribbeanmanufacturers, they assume they
the Caribbean American, theytake the Caribbean American
consumer for granted.
(35:31):
Absolutely.
So you have the biscuits fromsome islands, the beverages from
other islands, consumer productsthey ship here.
And you go to them and you say,well, once a year, once a year
we are doing, let us say, anissue on travel.
Would you advertise?
And the answer will be no,because they figure you have a
(35:54):
ready-made.
So I'm telling you, there arecertain products from the
Caribbean I no longer buy in thesupermarket.
Because why am I buying you ifyou're taking me for granted?
And I know if they were toadvertise in local media, the
the market share will increase.
(36:15):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
It's and it's not just manufacturers.
I'll go there.
Some of these tourist boards.
SPEAKER_02 (36:21):
When is Rather?
SPEAKER_00 (36:23):
They will not advertise with a Caribbean
American creator or publisher.
They will go outside thecommunity.
SPEAKER_02 (36:30):
Outside the community.
SPEAKER_00 (36:32):
Where I can tell you when I'm at work and my friends
are saying I want to go toJamaica, they're not going to
the tourist board to find outwhere to go.
They're asking me.
Absolutely.
They're looking at my pictures,my engagement.
And so I I understand that feellike you take for granted, no, I
could spend my money anywhere.
And people say, Oh, you're notsupporting your own, but my own
(36:54):
is not supporting me either.
And I think we have to do abetter job of understanding that
it's a cross-pollination.
We are pollinating ourcoworkers, our colleagues, our
neighbors with our culture, andthat then generates interest in
the region.
The region has to put back intothe community in a sustainable
way.
Because guess what?
(37:16):
The way how technology andeverything is going, the brands,
the people, the all the thingsthat you think is unique to your
country, they can make thatright here.
SPEAKER_02 (37:25):
Absolutely.
And and so and the movies arefoot to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (37:28):
Absolutely.
And that's what I'm saying.
Because I know that's what'shappening.
Um, Herman, we've, you know,working with you in the
magazine, we've seen how, youknow, some advertisers have
stayed with you, they've theirbudget has shrunk, but they're
still there.
And so, how do we reach a newaudience?
Uh, or not audience,advertisers, given how
(37:52):
geographically spread theCaribbean market is, and and no
one knows who's Caribbeananymore, you know.
So that's the other thing.
But people love Caribbeanculture, so that's the other
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (38:04):
No, that's is right, it's again, it's challenging.
Again, it's a new world, youhave to come with new
creativity.
This is why maybe a differentgeneration will come up with
ideas.
But again, going back to thetourist boards and the
hospitality industry in theCaribbean, they're still denying
it, but still in most Caribbeanislands, a tourist a tourist is
(38:26):
still seen as a Caucasian orwhite person.
They may deny it.
And then they still have thisfeeling that when the nationals
returning home, they don't sayhotels.
They say in people, which is nottrue.
Which is absolutely not true.
And then when the Caribbeannational, well, let us say they
send somebody home.
(38:47):
They still giving the personmoney, the same money they would
have spent in the hotel, andthat person is still spending
the money in the ROM shop, inthe little restaurant, and
everything.
So, but it's it's it's achallenge and few people have
paid the penalty.
I have paid the penalty for thatover the years because I have
(39:08):
gone through, you know, I'veconfronted prime ministers over
that over the years when I wasyoung and aggressive.
And they they always tell youthat there is very little they
could do about it.
Because guess what?
You know why is there verylittle they could do about it?
They depend on consultants,marketing gurus, consultants who
(39:34):
have no idea where the Caribbeanis, but they are the advertising
agencies, they are the publicrelations people and everything.
You know, um every Christmasfrom a particular island, that
island send me the publicrelations company from that
particular island.
They have a big Christmas partyright here in London, and they
(39:56):
have one in New York, and theyhave one in Toronto.
And you know, the media theyinvite to the to the Christmas
party is the white media.
But they don't invite theAfrican American or the black
media, but at the same time, nowthey are sending everybody's
Caribbean magazine the picturesof those splendid Christmas
(40:17):
parties to put into publish.
Oh, yeah.
I could sit here and tell youtales and tales and things,
which obviously wouldn't berelevant.
SPEAKER_00 (40:27):
All right, so as we wrap up this conversation, what
is the advice that you have,both of you have?
You have for me, you've seenwhere I've come from, you have
for you know your son Chris.
Um, I can't even say we're thenext generation because we're
kind of in between as ageneration behind us.
But what's the advice for us interms of continuing the work?
SPEAKER_01 (40:48):
I'm simple as that.
Continue on your work, justcontinue what you're doing.
I mean, there'll be a lot ofadversity, but eventually it
will be a fruit somewhere alongthe line.
Because I am speaking from anolder generation.
I'm speaking from a print media.
And as I said, I have cut downmy promotion when the days I
(41:10):
used to honor prime ministers,you name Eugenia Charles
Tomadam, so Arthur Lewis.
Various, I used to bring outthose days finishes a different
generation now.
So what you have to do is tocontinue what you're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (41:25):
The tremendous opportunity that is for your
generation, still young, uh, isto utilize all the resources you
now have.
We we when we started, we didn'thave those resources.
Uh I'm fortunate in that I havea son who has an interest in
what we do, a vested interest.
(41:46):
And because of that, we havebeen able to utilize some
resources.
What we're gonna have to do ismaximize using these resources.
And as much as my generation uhwould think, our generation
would think of uh artificialintelligence uh as um uh you
know something that we should beafraid of.
(42:08):
I'm converted.
Uh, you know, Chris, my son, hasconverted me that look, this is
to our advantage.
So we we're gonna utilizeartificial intelligence to the
very max to ensure that itguides us to the other platforms
that will have us uh integrateall that we need to integrate to
(42:33):
make this uh more efficient.
We've gotta find a way.
And and as much as people aresaying uh they're on Facebook,
they're on this platform,they're absolutely doing nothing
with those platforms.
They're doing nothing.
So it is how to capture theseplatforms and utilize them.
(42:54):
And I think AI is the way to tohelp us to find a way to tap in
and coordinate these variousplatforms.
And I think that's an idea thatwe should definitely explore.
How can AI help us to integrateall these different platforms to
work to our advantage?
SPEAKER_00 (43:14):
All right, so let's end on a hopeful note.
What is your hope for the futurewhen it comes to Caribbean
media, the Caribbean communCaribbean American community?
What is your hope?
I'll start with you, Herman.
SPEAKER_01 (43:26):
Well, I'm very optimistic and positive.
Um the creativity is not goingto come from my generation.
My generation is a fadinggeneration.
I mean, simple as that.
Um, but I have a lot ofconfidence in the young people,
the people who are in highschools, the people who are in
(43:48):
college.
Um, they see a different world.
There's a lot of new technology,AI, as we know, and so forth.
So I'm very positive.
And then the only thing I'mworried about is that the more
we have information, the more wegenerate misinformation.
Because what worries me a lot isthat news now is 60 seconds or
(44:12):
less.
So, and news, then you makeexcuses if the uh the news is
wrong.
And then now you have worldleaders, world world leaders who
believe that spreadingmisinformation is acceptable.
So that worries me.
(44:33):
The technology doesn't worry mefor the future.
What worries me about that sametechnology, people abusing it
and justifying it, that yes, weknow you are telling a lie, but
it's now acceptable.
Or we know you are misleadingthis country, or you are
misleading this advertiser, andit is now acceptable.
(44:56):
So every day, listening to theleaders of the world, you know,
you you get a lot of thismisinformation, which is
becoming the norm.
And no one is um objecting tosay it's not the norm, but
everybody is accepting it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:11):
Yeah.
We've been desensitized to it.
SPEAKER_02 (45:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:14):
Your hope?
SPEAKER_02 (45:17):
I'm hopeful.
Uh I'm hopeful because the theagain, the technology is there
to support what we do.
What I'm concerned about is thewillingness of of our younger
generation to to harness and tograb the opportunity.
(45:38):
And, you know, for thosereasons, I've I've founded a a
non-profit group called BlackPriorities.
Right?
I think very often when I wasdoing the research for this
paper that I'm doing, I GoogledJewish priorities.
I Googled other priorities,ethnic groups.
(46:00):
And do you know that for themost part, eighty percent of
other uh recognizable groupshave a set of priorities?
I couldn't find a set ofpriorities for black America.
What I found was the traditionalestablished organization, the
(46:22):
NAACP.
The the organizations, but nonesaying what are our priorities
going forward.
We have been fighting for thesame battle for the same number
for scores of years.
We've been fighting the samebattle, no change.
(46:44):
With some results, yes.
But could we get faster resultsif we set our priorities?
And and I think whoever sort ofdrives this, reordering,
rethinking our priorities, iswho is going to influence the
outcome of and I'm concernedabout our outcomes as as people
(47:06):
of color.
That's what I'm concerned aboutright now.
And I think if we reorder ourpriorities, so instead of
thinking uh the nine to five, asyou mentioned early on, that
mentality, why aren't wethinking seeing ourselves as
owners?
Right.
Why aren't we seeing everyopportunity that we get as an
(47:26):
opportunity to be anentrepreneur, to make some money
from it, to make a differencewith it.
And I think if we can somehow uhinfuse that kind of thinking in
people and begin to share that,I think once we realize that the
only way we can be recognizedand respected, get the equity
(47:52):
and the equality and all thegood things that we want is when
we're able to make our ownliving.
Black Wall Street comes to mind,right?
Oklahoma, okay?
Those people had to find a way.
Necessity again, being themother of invention.
I think when our backs areagainst the wall, like it is
now, people are complaining thatit's a bad time.
(48:13):
Yes, a bad time politically fora lot of people, but it's
putting our backs against thewall.
I think we when we come outfighting, right, right after Jim
Crow, when it was one of theworst times in our history,
there was the HarlemRenaissance.
And from the Harlem Renaissance,it started a conversation.
And that conversation has drivenus to where we are today.
(48:35):
That Herman is an owner, I'm anowner, and my son is an owner.
And I think I think the futureholds, you know, promise for us.
SPEAKER_00 (48:46):
Wonderful.
Well, thank you for joining usfor this series with Mr.
Clive Williams, publisher ofWhere It's At Magazine, and
Herman Hall, publisher ofEverybody's Magazine.
I do hope you enjoyed the seriesand that you've learned a lot
from these gentlemen.
And this is, again, thebeginning of your journey of
learning more about ourcommunity and being a part of
(49:07):
it.
Get active the way that thesegentlemen have said.
And we also have to continue tomake sure that our future is
still in place and not just beconsumers, but how are we going
to be producers of our culture?
All right.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (49:23):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Hello everyone, welcome back to this special
series brought to you by CarryOn Friends in partnership with
Where It's Not Magazine.
And I'm excited to have Mr.
Clive Williams, the publisher ofWhere It's Not Magazine, a
publication that's been aroundfor 22 years.
And with me also Herman Hogg,the publisher of Everybody's
Magazine, a publication that'sbeen around for 48 years.
(00:22):
And so in this conversation, I'mgoing to talk to these two
stalwars, these legends, abouttheir work in Caribbean-American
media and where we're comingfrom, where we are, and their
hopes for where we can go.
So welcome, gentlemen.
I'm so excited to have thisconversation with you both.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
Thank you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:43):
All right.
So, Mr.
Williams, I'm gonna start withyou.
Um what is your feeling in thismoment about Caribbean-American
media and the media spacelargely?
SPEAKER_02 (00:57):
It makes me want to start something.
I always want to startsomething.
It makes me question the factwhy don't we have a
recognizable, workable,practical Caribbean American
Media Association?
Why didn't anybody start?
(01:18):
I've said to my son on a numberof occasions, why don't we get
an association started?
And I started making the moves,and I realized, as I realize in
most things, that I'm gonna endup doing all the work.
And I'm sure Herman findshimself in that position.
He he the idea is there, we wewant to bring people together,
(01:41):
we we see the potential.
But when the rubber meets theroad, it's left to us.
And we are I know for me,Herman.
I mean, we we've beencollectively, right?
We've both been publishing for70 years.
Yeah.
I mean, it's something like inin today's day, that's not too
long.
Right.
But it's it's a big chunk of ourlives, too, right?
(02:04):
And um, look, 48 years, I Idon't usually take a backseat to
anybody, but I'm taking abackseat to this man because I
watched him work eight years.
And he's a pioneer.
I stand where it's at stands onhis shoulders.
Yeah.
Right?
And we need to recognize thatfor the sacrifices that he made,
(02:26):
we were able to come into themarketplace.
It's it's uh what am I thinkingright now as to the state of the
media?
Uh we need to be organized.
We we need young people.
Uh I I think many people uh whenthey want to be a journalist,
(02:46):
they think of a journalismcareer as being a writer and so
forth.
But why aren't people thinkingin terms of journalism as a
business?
And that's this is where I thinkwe should start thinking, right?
Think of journalism as abusiness.
Why if if I were to get theopportunity now to speak to some
(03:08):
college graduates who areembarking on this journalism
career, I'd say to them, look,why don't you look at your
neighborhood, look where youlive, and start a newsletter
that deals with the issues andthe concerns and the problems
that's happening in your neck ofthe woods.
Start your newsletter there.
And that can grow into becauseI've, you know, I'll come to
(03:31):
that.
That can sort of push youforward in in your journalism
career doing your ownnewsletter.
Then that newsletter becomeswhat?
A magazine or a newspaper.
So you know, it there are anumber of things that are really
happening in my head that shouldbe taking place in the business
(03:52):
now.
But then you you put behind thatthe economic situation in which
we live.
Yeah.
And those realities havechanged.
And this is why Herman and Iknow we have to think of
different ways as to how we canmonetize what we have.
SPEAKER_00 (04:09):
I have so many questions I want to follow up
on.
Why a media association?
Why do you think that it couldbe beneficial to us in this day
and age?
Um yeah, let's start there.
SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
You want to go first?
No, you can go.
Strength in numbers, power in inassociations.
Um when you are a cohesivegroup, you benefit from that by
the flow of ideas, the exchangeof ideas.
(04:42):
And you also convey to thecommunity that there is
cohesiveness.
People are serious about theirbusiness, that you're an
organization.
Then you'll be able to lobby forsupport.
Um, you'll be able to uh makeinroads in the so-called
bureaucracy once you are anassociation.
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Herman, when we were working together, we you know,
uh in 2007, 2008, media wasn'tthe what it is, what it is now
then, and we had to deal withchanging, digitizing the the
website of the magazine.
And so technology is a bigdisruptor in this space.
(05:30):
And so what does technology playin the future or or the state of
Caribbean?
I hate I don't like to say thestate of Caribbean media, but
what role does technology play?
Because you said start anewsletter.
Most people just want to use thesocial media platforms and not
necessarily own anything.
So I'm curious about from yourperspective, because you've been
(05:53):
a publisher the longest, therole technology plays in the
evolution uh and the sustainablepotential sustainability as of
Caribbean media as a whole.
SPEAKER_01 (06:03):
Well, no, technology is everything now.
Everything, especially you go ininto the era now of AI,
artificial intelligence.
But yet on the other hand, um,you like saying the human body,
the human body cannot existwithout flaw of blood.
So writing always be a part ofjournalism.
(06:27):
But on the other hand, formingan association is rather
challenging.
You have to be really at it, andit also will end up most of the
time in the hands of the personwho came up with the idea.
And especially now, the media isnot as dependent on each other
(06:51):
as before.
Now, in the head of the 80s,when various United States
administrations, whether theywere Democratic administrations
or Republican administrations,when they thought that the
Caribbean was on fire, the daysof Manly, the days of Maurice
(07:11):
Bishop, Justin X and Castro, andso forth, when they thought the
Caribbean was going too much tothe left, there was some sort of
Caribbean American JournalismAssociation, which I knew they
brought everybody together, butwe knew I could have figured out
who was behind it because weknew it was not us, it was
(07:34):
somebody within the USorganization, a bureaucracy that
would have to bring up to get tohandpick people's brain.
But now, so that failedobviously because it was not
created genuinely.
But now in this age of, again,technology and digital and
(07:56):
everything, we don't need eachother as before, so we may not
find a need for those sort ofjournalism organizations.
Let us say the NationalAssociation of Black
Journalists.
Now, I am a member of theNational Association of Black
Journalists.
As a matter of fact, I am arecipient of a National
(08:18):
Association of Black JournalistsAward when I won the award for
foreign reporting as a result ofthe death of Bob Marley and Dr.
Eric Williams.
And that was in 1982.
Now, the National Association ofBlack Journalists was created by
(08:38):
print journalists.
There was a man named Les Painfrom Long Island.
He was the editor with Gil Nobleand so forth.
Les Payne was the editor of NewsDay when News Day was at its
heights in Long Island.
Now, the person who put, if youcan say the National Association
(09:00):
of Black Journalists on the mapagain, you may not agree or
disagree with me, was none otherthan President Trump.
Because last year during thepresidential election, when the
National Association of BlackJournalists invited President
Trump to come to address thebody, then suddenly everybody
(09:24):
heard about the NationalAssociation of Black
Journalists.
And when you look at theinterview, the people from the
National Association of BlackJournalists who interviewed the
president or the formerpresident then, well, the
president now, they are all fromthe national news media.
They did not have anyone fromthe print media.
(09:46):
From the black print media.
So basically, the NationalAssociation of Black Journalists
is hijacked right now because itconsists of the Krim, the Black
Cream, if you want to say blackcream, meaning the people, the
black who is on CNN, maybe Fox,NBC, CBS, and so forth.
(10:08):
So they are the principalorganizers right now.
So yes, there will be a need,maybe a young group in different
generations, may under theguidance of Dr.
Williams here, may beinterested.
Um we come up with an idea, butit's a rather challenging
effort.
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
You said that we don't need or depend or work
with each other as much as wedo, but here we are carrying our
friends and where it's at.
Magazine, do you think thatpeople think they don't need
each other?
But we in some ways we still doneed some level of
collaboration.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Well, yeah, what I really meant was that we don't,
I was talking about the mediahouses.
Okay.
So years ago, to get the latestnews from Trinidad of Barbados
at Jamaica, you needed theadvocate, the cleaner, or
whatever, the guardian inTrinidad.
But now, this afternoon ortomorrow morning, you could
(11:06):
bypass all of those media andthrough Facebook and social
media get in tune directly withthe radio station or the
television station back inKingston or in Bridgetown.
So this is what I really meant.
SPEAKER_00 (11:21):
Okay, got it.
And so your thought on okay, wemay not depend on each other in
that traditional sense, but howcan Caribbean media still
collaborate and work together tokind of form a coalition?
SPEAKER_02 (11:34):
We we we're it's interesting that you say that.
I'm not at liberty to callnames, but we're constantly in
pursuit of that kind ofcollaboration because we believe
that collaboration is strength.
Uh, you know, I I I know whereHerman is coming from, and in a
way he's kind of doing a deviladvocacy advocacy situation.
(11:54):
He's saying, you know, give himthe situation that is at hand
where we're we're not thatcohesive because of the various
platforms.
Uh I'm saying that there needsto be a new thinking that
somebody should make some ofthese platforms cohesive.
And we're taking a step to dothat.
(12:17):
We have um we are now in talksto um get together with another
platform, because each platform,as you would imagine, has its
followers.
And and if one could I andpretty much when you look at at
American business, the Americanbusiness model, what you see is
(12:39):
a situation where there are,even though technology is there
to drive much of what we do,there is a willingness of
companies in theirself-interest, in their own
self-interest, and in in theinterest of their longevity to
come together.
We were seeing that all over.
The car companies uh over overtime have done that because
(13:03):
right now they're just three carcompanies.
You know, what what hashappened?
Chrysler, Dodge, they've becomestill antis, right?
Um so and and that's in Europe.
So the fact is that there is anappetite to come together.
It's to find the incentive, themotive to do that.
(13:25):
And and I'm motivated to dothat.
And it's it's uh it has to be amindset and it has to be, we
have to be driven to a largeextent in self-interest.
If we want to survive, we've gotto make sure you survive.
SPEAKER_00 (13:38):
Got it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:40):
Glad you you mentioned that.
Again, what you're asking,unfortunately, is part of
Caribbean tradition, even thoughit's not positive, where we are
actually divided each island toitself.
So politically is divided,economically, socially, and so
forth.
So when it comes to journalism,it's the same, is it's basically
(14:04):
the same thing.
Um yet there are ethnic groupshere that uh um work together,
other racial groups fromnationals.
For example, there is a freenewspaper distributed all over
New York City.
Um Caribbean newspaper, and isdistributed for free.
(14:25):
They are owned by 20, they arethey are part of 25 other
newspapers or more, a bigconglomerate.
Actually, there were one timethe report moderate companies
that own that newspaper of whichit was part of a conglomerate,
right?
But they they work togetherbecause it's the same ownership.
(14:49):
They could get the big, big ads.
And we we it's free for free.
And we believe we have no ideathat these people are not, it's
not locally owned.
They make a big profit everyyear.
But on the other hand, we don'twork together.
I I recall, I think it may bethe late 70s, early 80s, I went
(15:11):
to Chicago.
In those days, black advertisingagencies were the peak.
And I went to Chicago and I metwith two or three of the black
advertising agencies.
And I came back and I met withthe publisher of a
Caribbean-American tabloid righthere in Brooklyn.
(15:34):
And said, Well, I just cameback.
This is what we should do.
We should all work together andgo jointly and make our case to
these advertising agencies whythey should advertise us.
And the first thing the personsaid to me, the publisher said,
Listen, if you get it, I may notget that, you know, I want to do
my own thing because if we gotogether, you may get, I may not
(16:00):
get.
So, so you know, every so we arenot divided, we are not united,
we can work together.
But as I said, I mean, there isthere's a lot of, for example,
there's a lot of Jewishpublications, right?
In New York City and around theUnited States.
(16:20):
Some are very small, some aregrassroots, some are very big.
We don't see them.
But you know what?
There is a platform, they allwork together for the common
good.
And then they get theadvertisements.
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
Yeah.
So between both of you, you'veseen many Caribbean media
companies, not just publishers,but like a lot of media come and
go in the many years.
SPEAKER_02 (16:47):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
And I mean, we're we're laughing, but it's not
funny either because, and I andI guess as technology has come
about, you know, many peoplehave their own platforms via
social media.
But when we think about the waythat right now other communities
have their own channels and, youknow, Caribbean media is still
(17:11):
leasing, maybe on whateverplatform, what does it take for
Caribbean media to anchor itselfthe way other communities and
other um ethnicities are havedone?
Because I believe that we're ina place for that.
A lot of times I look at the UKand how established it is in
terms of the Caribbean presenceand, you know, the way that
(17:35):
Caribbean people have begunmigration here before they've
really gone to the UK and we'renot established or set up in the
same way.
So I'm curious, what does ittake for us to have like maybe
our own channel, our ownanchored media platforms that
serve the community?
What does it take for that?
And and the lessons of maybemedia companies that have passed
(18:00):
that we can learn from.
So let's start there.
Lessons that you've learned frommedia companies that have come
and go and how this could helpus solidify ourselves or a more
grounded network or other mediaplatform.
SPEAKER_02 (18:12):
But you know, I I want to start at all with with
an experience and a story.
Uh Connecticut School ofBroadcasting, I used to teach
there.
I went there, as a matter offact, as part of my my
experience.
And um while teaching there, Idiscovered an interesting source
(18:34):
of information that we would umget information as to what radio
stations at the time as involvedin radio, right, are on the
block, what's up for sale.
And I would pass thisinformation on to my colleagues
who were in the business ofradio at the time.
(18:55):
And it's interesting that uh oneof the buys that escaped us was
a well-known radio station thatwas up for sale back in the 90s.
And um it was a Caribbeanplatform for the most part.
(19:20):
And I took it upon myself.
Uh having had the experiencewith being an Avtra member, I
met an attorney.
This is a union that used tocover people in acting and and
radio and so forth.
And I met a young attorney andum a young Hispanic attorney,
(19:42):
and we we talked, and I told himthat, look, uh a lot of
Jamaicans, uh Trinidad and soforth, Bayans, uh own time on
leash radio.
But we need to get together anduh get a platform for ourselves.
And he said to me, Look, if youcan uh get people together, a
(20:07):
group of people together, uh Ican look at possible membership
so that you you guys will havesome sort of security.
Instead of being on a leaseplatform this week and next week
you're off.
I says, Great.
I then used my initiative, goton to the uh Broadcasters
(20:30):
Association, New YorkBroadcasters Association, spoke
to the then president who said,Look, if you can get together a
group of your pet folks, wecould get you some kind of
leverage if and and get you inas members of the association.
Might not be full members, mightbe associate membership, but
(20:53):
that would help.
I did all that.
And then I put out the word thatlet's meet because I have good
news.
We are we have an opportunitynow to become legitimate uh
members of the media, thebroadcast media in New York.
(21:14):
We set a meeting time.
One person showed up.
So we go back to Herman'sargument about getting together,
getting some kind ofcohesiveness, getting some kind
of agreement as to who shouldlead.
What that tells me, and thelesson I learned from that, is
(21:36):
uh and and we say colloquially,it's a crab in a barrel
mentality.
Okay?
Uh uh an expression, an adagewhich I I hate with a passion,
because I think it's because welack information.
Simply because we lackinformation, it's not because we
don't have the will.
(21:56):
We lack information as to whatis required of us.
Now, many of the people who havegotten into the media, they uh
practice as journalists, havestudied journalism, but they
have no sort of businessbackground.
They don't have a peoplebackground either.
In other words, the the personalrelationships, how to operate in
(22:19):
that medium.
And so I think it's ignorance.
And uh this is why Chris, myson, and I are on a mission to
just inform people.
I think the more you informpeople, the more they know what
is required of them, that thisis a process that at some point
is going to lead to a memorandumof agreement, which is something
we just recently done withanother media association.
(22:44):
Understanding that how we dobusiness, we've got to do it
like how other people dobusiness, how Jewish folks do
business, how white folks dobusiness.
We've got to start doingbusiness that way instead of
saying, okay, let's try a thing.
So I think it's it it's gettingthe sophistication, right?
Just getting a little bit moresophisticated instead of trying
(23:06):
a thing is what will bringunity, a sense of purpose, and
and some accomplishment.
I I think Herman and I haveworked hard, set a foundation,
and I think from that people,just by watching maybe this
conversation, people understandthat look, especially in these
(23:29):
very challenging times, somemany times uh adversity is the
mother of an invention.
All right?
And I think the adversity thatwe face now is going to force us
to coalesce.
We've got to coalesce.
And people are seeing that,they're understanding it.
So the time is is near.
(23:49):
We might grow impatient, but Ithink that time will come when
we understand, and Chris, like Isaid, we're doing it.
We are forging a relationshipnow with another media company,
and we're gonna make sure thatthat works.
Other people will see it andthey will begin to say, well,
you know, maybe this is the waywe should go.
And even if even if we're notconvinced, the economic
(24:11):
situation that exists now isgoing to force us into
partnerships.
SPEAKER_01 (24:16):
I just want you to touch before you mention about
the business.
You see, again, Koreanimmigrants, uh, Korean
Americans, we still still seeourselves to a certain extent as
nine to five people.
So in a sense, those of us whoare in the media, the viewer or
(24:39):
the listener, the reader, theydon't see they don't see what we
do as a business.
They see uh what we do as ahobby, they figure we have
another job.
So they so overall they don'ttake ultra so seriously as they
should.
And again, it goes back, youknow, to how we think, how we
(25:02):
colonialism.
You know, we tend to blamehistory, we may blame, but
again, we're no longer living ina colonial times.
So it's about time that weunderstand our face reality.
But at the same time, you dohave people out there, I mean,
who we say, well, yeah, we knowyou do a magazine, but what is
(25:25):
your real job?
You know, yeah, and and let'sface it, yeah, the closest
ownership of Caribbean owningsomething was a radio station
called WLIB Radio.
Now, while it is true, WLIBRadio, like Carver Savings Bank,
(25:45):
is basically the founders wereAfrican Americans and Caribbean
Americans.
So the chairman of the board ofWLIB Radio was Dr.
Dr.
Benjamin Watkins when PercySutton was then borough
president.
There was Dr.
Muriel Pechone, she was aphysician of Malcolm X.
(26:08):
These were Caribbean people whowere owners and
African-Americans who wereowners of WLIB radio.
So when the WLIB went Caribbean,the first thing my Caribbean
folks were saying, Possiblysuddenly was running for mayor,
so he's using the LIB to garnervotes.
So then years later, LIBcontinued.
(26:30):
But what happened?
The Jamaicans say it's too muchcalypso.
The Trinidadans is saying toomuch Jamaicans.
The Grenadians are calling me at4 a.m.
in the morning to tell me Idon't play no Grenadian music,
even though I'm not a DJ.
And in those days, we didn'teven have a carry uh a Grenadian
album.
So it's every man for his soinpoints, and then everything got
(26:53):
underway.
One time I was with theHonorable Posse Sutton, who was
again the Manhattan Ballpresident for several years, and
he actually was again MalcolmX's lawyer.
So he's talking about big, bigman.
So one Friday, he said, Herman,let us take a drive down to
Brooklyn.
He wanted to visit to get theviews of WLIB radio.
(27:16):
So he had his driver, and wewent to a record store on Fulton
Street, Charlie, my friend,Charlie Record Store, and he
shook everybody's hand and hesaid, How is the radio station
doing?
And two guys said, You'retalking about the Jamaican radio
station.
And it was so insultive and soobscene and so bad.
(27:36):
So this is so so in 2025, herewe are talking about something
that should have been settled along time ago.
So, so it's another generation.
Um maybe Dr.
Williamson, a younger generationwho may come up with some new
creativity and bring everybodytogether, you know, um, to work
(28:00):
to work it as a business.
Because again, remember, thelargest circulated
Caribbean-American publicationin New York City is not even
owned by black, not even ownedby Caribbean people.
But yet every Thursday orTuesday, whenever we run and
(28:21):
grab it.
And it's a piece of rubbish thatis there, it's just used
releases.
But this is what we like, youknow, and so forth.
So I so we really have first ofall have to look at it as a
business.
Your show, for example, we haveto look at it as a business, not
something you do when you comefrom work.
And this is what people believe.
(28:42):
So we have to change themindset, the analogy.
Absolutely.
The readers, the viewer, and ifwe of ourselves who are trying
to be producers or who areproducers and publishers and
editors, we have to rememberit's a business.
It's it's basically what it is.
We pay taxes, we have to giveaccount of everything.
SPEAKER_00 (29:02):
Absolutely.
With the business, you've got totalk about the A-word.
Advertisers.
They weave.
I've observed Herman, and I'msure I've heard um I've heard
stories, Mr.
Williams.
I've constantly heard, oh, wedon't need to advertise to the
(29:23):
Caribbean audience.
Ugh.
SPEAKER_01 (29:25):
We have customers.
SPEAKER_00 (29:26):
Yeah, you know, Caribbean, that's that's not
innovative.
You know, oh, you know, whateverwe advertise to the black
audience, Caribbean.
What are advertisers gettingwrong about the community?
And does the community play arole in how advertisers treat
us?
I don't I don't know the answer.
I'm just asking because you bothhave a lot of experience and
(29:49):
more conversation withadvertisers.
I know from my podcast, it'slike, you know, I don't know
what to tell you about it.
But, you know, it's it'schallenging.
And I think there's Like yousaid, lack of information about
who this group of people are andwhat they want.
And, you know, so let's talkabout advertisers.
Who wants to start?
What's the problem?
(30:09):
What's the issue?
SPEAKER_02 (30:10):
You know, again, uh, let me tell you how I go about
it.
When I started WearTack, I wastold first of all that that's
gonna fail.
Yeah.
Right?
I remember a dear friend of mineand and a brother in uh in a
fraternity.
Uh he looked at me and he says,Um, you're a black man, right?
(30:35):
He's part Asian, right?
And um you wanna start amagazine in New York City,
right?
Yes.
He says, Do you realize thatthis is the biggest media market
in the world?
So why would you wanna do that?
(30:57):
Okay.
Uh now uh for me, and this ispersonal, I took that
personally.
And I decided that, okay, thatmade up my mind.
This is something that I've gotto do because it means that
somebody and he was verysuccessful, very successful
restaurateur.
(31:18):
And um for him to say that butwhen he came into the business
that he was in, he wasn't theonly guy.
Uh the restaurant business isone of the biggest businesses in
any city that you go to.
And he went in head first and hesucceeded.
I says, Okay, I'm gonna do whatyou did.
(31:40):
So unbeknownst to him, I lookedat his model as motivation for
my model.
And I started, and we drove thatmodel forward.
Now the point I'm making, I wentfrom door to door, and I mean
from business to business.
I went to hairdressers, I wentto barbers, I didn't know.
(32:04):
Um, but I knew.
And I spoke to them, introducedthe magazine to them.
I even went further.
Uh and and we we might talkabout this i in in in a further
conversation.
But one of the things I madesure to do is to approach some
of the people who had businessesthat were doing reasonably well
in the community.
(32:25):
I says, Look, um do you want toadvertise with us?
Well, I've been getting alongokay without advertising.
You do realize, of course, thatit gives you a presence in a
community, it gives you a name,enhances your your your your
look in the community.
(32:47):
Um word of mouth.
I says, but guess what?
There are competitors who arecoming in taking a little bit
from you every week, everymonth, and that adds up to
something.
I didn't convince, and thesewere colleagues of mine.
I didn't convince them, so Isays, Here's what give me your
(33:07):
ad.
And I did better than that.
I designed the ads for them, andI put it in where it's at.
And I says, I'm gonna run itfree for the next few months.
If you get response, I'm sureyou'll continue.
And that was how I initially,and by the way, we are not
selling where it's at, we aregiving it to the community for
(33:31):
free.
So when people people thoughtthat I was rich.
And this is the mentality.
People thought that how can yoube giving away this paper?
And uh but I said to andexplained to them the truth, I
says, Look, this is leveraged byuh Mr.
Hall down the road, whosebusiness you support, and he's
(33:54):
supporting you back so that youcan get this magazine for free.
And so it was by hard work goingliterally from business to
business, we call that coldcalling in this in the business
of direct selling, right?
And from cold calling and fromgiving away ads, I started
(34:15):
building a little franchise, andpeople developed a trust.
And after that trust wasdeveloped, that bond, we became
uh a credible uh publication,people started giving us more
support.
Now, does any young person, doesthis generation, have the
(34:38):
appetite for that?
Okay.
So this but this this is thechallenge that that that we
face.
SPEAKER_01 (34:45):
Yeah, but yeah, well, yeah, locally, uh what you
are seeing, and advertisers,especially on the local level,
they have to begin to have acertain amount of confidence.
But what we don't also look atis the Caribbean of itself.
Caribbean in the Caribbean, I'mtalking about the businesses.
They talk about how important isthe Caribbean American community
(35:11):
or the Canadian AmericanCaribbean community is good.
The the money they sent home andso forth, fine.
But these Caribbeanmanufacturers, they assume they
the Caribbean American, theytake the Caribbean American
consumer for granted.
(35:31):
Absolutely.
So you have the biscuits fromsome islands, the beverages from
other islands, consumer productsthey ship here.
And you go to them and you say,well, once a year, once a year
we are doing, let us say, anissue on travel.
Would you advertise?
And the answer will be no,because they figure you have a
(35:54):
ready-made.
So I'm telling you, there arecertain products from the
Caribbean I no longer buy in thesupermarket.
Because why am I buying you ifyou're taking me for granted?
And I know if they were toadvertise in local media, the
the market share will increase.
(36:15):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
It's and it's not just manufacturers.
I'll go there.
Some of these tourist boards.
SPEAKER_02 (36:21):
When is Rather?
SPEAKER_00 (36:23):
They will not advertise with a Caribbean
American creator or publisher.
They will go outside thecommunity.
SPEAKER_02 (36:30):
Outside the community.
SPEAKER_00 (36:32):
Where I can tell you when I'm at work and my friends
are saying I want to go toJamaica, they're not going to
the tourist board to find outwhere to go.
They're asking me.
Absolutely.
They're looking at my pictures,my engagement.
And so I I understand that feellike you take for granted, no, I
could spend my money anywhere.
And people say, Oh, you're notsupporting your own, but my own
(36:54):
is not supporting me either.
And I think we have to do abetter job of understanding that
it's a cross-pollination.
We are pollinating ourcoworkers, our colleagues, our
neighbors with our culture, andthat then generates interest in
the region.
The region has to put back intothe community in a sustainable
way.
Because guess what?
(37:16):
The way how technology andeverything is going, the brands,
the people, the all the thingsthat you think is unique to your
country, they can make thatright here.
SPEAKER_02 (37:25):
Absolutely.
And and so and the movies arefoot to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (37:28):
Absolutely.
And that's what I'm saying.
Because I know that's what'shappening.
Um, Herman, we've, you know,working with you in the
magazine, we've seen how, youknow, some advertisers have
stayed with you, they've theirbudget has shrunk, but they're
still there.
And so, how do we reach a newaudience?
Uh, or not audience,advertisers, given how
(37:52):
geographically spread theCaribbean market is, and and no
one knows who's Caribbeananymore, you know.
So that's the other thing.
But people love Caribbeanculture, so that's the other
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (38:04):
No, that's is right, it's again, it's challenging.
Again, it's a new world, youhave to come with new
creativity.
This is why maybe a differentgeneration will come up with
ideas.
But again, going back to thetourist boards and the
hospitality industry in theCaribbean, they're still denying
it, but still in most Caribbeanislands, a tourist a tourist is
(38:26):
still seen as a Caucasian orwhite person.
They may deny it.
And then they still have thisfeeling that when the nationals
returning home, they don't sayhotels.
They say in people, which is nottrue.
Which is absolutely not true.
And then when the Caribbeannational, well, let us say they
send somebody home.
(38:47):
They still giving the personmoney, the same money they would
have spent in the hotel, andthat person is still spending
the money in the ROM shop, inthe little restaurant, and
everything.
So, but it's it's it's achallenge and few people have
paid the penalty.
I have paid the penalty for thatover the years because I have
(39:08):
gone through, you know, I'veconfronted prime ministers over
that over the years when I wasyoung and aggressive.
And they they always tell youthat there is very little they
could do about it.
Because guess what?
You know why is there verylittle they could do about it?
They depend on consultants,marketing gurus, consultants who
(39:34):
have no idea where the Caribbeanis, but they are the advertising
agencies, they are the publicrelations people and everything.
You know, um every Christmasfrom a particular island, that
island send me the publicrelations company from that
particular island.
They have a big Christmas partyright here in London, and they
(39:56):
have one in New York, and theyhave one in Toronto.
And you know, the media theyinvite to the to the Christmas
party is the white media.
But they don't invite theAfrican American or the black
media, but at the same time, nowthey are sending everybody's
Caribbean magazine the picturesof those splendid Christmas
(40:17):
parties to put into publish.
Oh, yeah.
I could sit here and tell youtales and tales and things,
which obviously wouldn't berelevant.
SPEAKER_00 (40:27):
All right, so as we wrap up this conversation, what
is the advice that you have,both of you have?
You have for me, you've seenwhere I've come from, you have
for you know your son Chris.
Um, I can't even say we're thenext generation because we're
kind of in between as ageneration behind us.
But what's the advice for us interms of continuing the work?
SPEAKER_01 (40:48):
I'm simple as that.
Continue on your work, justcontinue what you're doing.
I mean, there'll be a lot ofadversity, but eventually it
will be a fruit somewhere alongthe line.
Because I am speaking from anolder generation.
I'm speaking from a print media.
And as I said, I have cut downmy promotion when the days I
(41:10):
used to honor prime ministers,you name Eugenia Charles
Tomadam, so Arthur Lewis.
Various, I used to bring outthose days finishes a different
generation now.
So what you have to do is tocontinue what you're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (41:25):
The tremendous opportunity that is for your
generation, still young, uh, isto utilize all the resources you
now have.
We we when we started, we didn'thave those resources.
Uh I'm fortunate in that I havea son who has an interest in
what we do, a vested interest.
(41:46):
And because of that, we havebeen able to utilize some
resources.
What we're gonna have to do ismaximize using these resources.
And as much as my generation uhwould think, our generation
would think of uh artificialintelligence uh as um uh you
know something that we should beafraid of.
(42:08):
I'm converted.
Uh, you know, Chris, my son, hasconverted me that look, this is
to our advantage.
So we we're gonna utilizeartificial intelligence to the
very max to ensure that itguides us to the other platforms
that will have us uh integrateall that we need to integrate to
(42:33):
make this uh more efficient.
We've gotta find a way.
And and as much as people aresaying uh they're on Facebook,
they're on this platform,they're absolutely doing nothing
with those platforms.
They're doing nothing.
So it is how to capture theseplatforms and utilize them.
(42:54):
And I think AI is the way to tohelp us to find a way to tap in
and coordinate these variousplatforms.
And I think that's an idea thatwe should definitely explore.
How can AI help us to integrateall these different platforms to
work to our advantage?
SPEAKER_00 (43:14):
All right, so let's end on a hopeful note.
What is your hope for the futurewhen it comes to Caribbean
media, the Caribbean communCaribbean American community?
What is your hope?
I'll start with you, Herman.
SPEAKER_01 (43:26):
Well, I'm very optimistic and positive.
Um the creativity is not goingto come from my generation.
My generation is a fadinggeneration.
I mean, simple as that.
Um, but I have a lot ofconfidence in the young people,
the people who are in highschools, the people who are in
(43:48):
college.
Um, they see a different world.
There's a lot of new technology,AI, as we know, and so forth.
So I'm very positive.
And then the only thing I'mworried about is that the more
we have information, the more wegenerate misinformation.
Because what worries me a lot isthat news now is 60 seconds or
(44:12):
less.
So, and news, then you makeexcuses if the uh the news is
wrong.
And then now you have worldleaders, world world leaders who
believe that spreadingmisinformation is acceptable.
So that worries me.
(44:33):
The technology doesn't worry mefor the future.
What worries me about that sametechnology, people abusing it
and justifying it, that yes, weknow you are telling a lie, but
it's now acceptable.
Or we know you are misleadingthis country, or you are
misleading this advertiser, andit is now acceptable.
(44:56):
So every day, listening to theleaders of the world, you know,
you you get a lot of thismisinformation, which is
becoming the norm.
And no one is um objecting tosay it's not the norm, but
everybody is accepting it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:11):
Yeah.
We've been desensitized to it.
SPEAKER_02 (45:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:14):
Your hope?
SPEAKER_02 (45:17):
I'm hopeful.
Uh I'm hopeful because the theagain, the technology is there
to support what we do.
What I'm concerned about is thewillingness of of our younger
generation to to harness and tograb the opportunity.
(45:38):
And, you know, for thosereasons, I've I've founded a a
non-profit group called BlackPriorities.
Right?
I think very often when I wasdoing the research for this
paper that I'm doing, I GoogledJewish priorities.
I Googled other priorities,ethnic groups.
(46:00):
And do you know that for themost part, eighty percent of
other uh recognizable groupshave a set of priorities?
I couldn't find a set ofpriorities for black America.
What I found was the traditionalestablished organization, the
(46:22):
NAACP.
The the organizations, but nonesaying what are our priorities
going forward.
We have been fighting for thesame battle for the same number
for scores of years.
We've been fighting the samebattle, no change.
(46:44):
With some results, yes.
But could we get faster resultsif we set our priorities?
And and I think whoever sort ofdrives this, reordering,
rethinking our priorities, iswho is going to influence the
outcome of and I'm concernedabout our outcomes as as people
(47:06):
of color.
That's what I'm concerned aboutright now.
And I think if we reorder ourpriorities, so instead of
thinking uh the nine to five, asyou mentioned early on, that
mentality, why aren't wethinking seeing ourselves as
owners?
Right.
Why aren't we seeing everyopportunity that we get as an
(47:26):
opportunity to be anentrepreneur, to make some money
from it, to make a differencewith it.
And I think if we can somehow uhinfuse that kind of thinking in
people and begin to share that,I think once we realize that the
only way we can be recognizedand respected, get the equity
(47:52):
and the equality and all thegood things that we want is when
we're able to make our ownliving.
Black Wall Street comes to mind,right?
Oklahoma, okay?
Those people had to find a way.
Necessity again, being themother of invention.
I think when our backs areagainst the wall, like it is
now, people are complaining thatit's a bad time.
(48:13):
Yes, a bad time politically fora lot of people, but it's
putting our backs against thewall.
I think we when we come outfighting, right, right after Jim
Crow, when it was one of theworst times in our history,
there was the HarlemRenaissance.
And from the Harlem Renaissance,it started a conversation.
And that conversation has drivenus to where we are today.
(48:35):
That Herman is an owner, I'm anowner, and my son is an owner.
And I think I think the futureholds, you know, promise for us.
SPEAKER_00 (48:46):
Wonderful.
Well, thank you for joining usfor this series with Mr.
Clive Williams, publisher ofWhere It's At Magazine, and
Herman Hall, publisher ofEverybody's Magazine.
I do hope you enjoyed the seriesand that you've learned a lot
from these gentlemen.
And this is, again, thebeginning of your journey of
learning more about ourcommunity and being a part of
(49:07):
it.
Get active the way that thesegentlemen have said.
And we also have to continue tomake sure that our future is
still in place and not just beconsumers, but how are we going
to be producers of our culture?
All right.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (49:23):
Thank you.
Thank you.
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