August 13, 2025 • 36 mins
In this midweek episode, Bill and Jackie join the 'The Visible Voices' podcast, hosted by Dr. Resa E Lewiss. We highlight the voice of late starters and discuss:
- The huge gap that 'Catching Up to FI' is filling and what we mean by the 'silent majority'
- How shock, regret, and money-trauma can become fuel
- Unique advantages you may have when beginning your financial independence journey later in life
- Why micro-steps (Kaizen-style) beat grand gestures every time
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Catching Up to FI
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🌐 'This Visible Voices' Podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello and welcome back to Catching aFI, another Midweek Wednesday episode.
We love sharing these shows thatwe do with others because there's
different twists on life anddifferent things that we talk about.
We hope you enjoy them asmuch as we do, right, Jackie?
Yeah, bill.
And you know what?
This was a fun one.
We got someone, her name is Risa Lewismd, the Visible Voices podcast, and
(00:26):
she asked us some very interestingquestions that we don't often get.
And she is a medical doctor, so she'ssort of, you know, in your field there.
And, she approaches it a little bit.
Differently, but she reached out to meand I'm like, Hey, you're an ER physician.
You gotta know Bill.
So fast forward, shegot us both on the show.
We had a wonderful conversationand we just thought it would be
(00:49):
worth sharing it with our audience.
Yeah, she's also an author.
She's had a bit of a job transitionfrom an emergency medicine physician
like me to an author, and she wrotethis book, micro Skills Small.
Actions, big impact.
This is like the Japanese philosophyat Kaizen, and this is like what Brad
Barrett talks about, the 1% better.
(01:09):
And so, we can all justlike late starters, we can
all get better baby steps.
Take one bite out of theelephant at a time and you'll
be able to eat the elephant.
So I hope you enjoy this show.
Yeah, so take a listen tothe Visible Voices podcast.
(08:08):
This is the Visible Voices Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr. Risa e Lewis.
I'm here with Jackie Cummings Kowski.
It's AKA Jackie, and Dr. Bill, y Billfrom the Catching Up to five podcast.
PHI means financial independence.
Jackie and Bill just celebratedtheir 1000000th podcast download.
Catching Up to Phi is the Mindset,money, and Life podcast specifically
(08:30):
for late starters of any age.
On the journey to financial independence,Jackie reached financial independence
in her forties after navigatingpoverty, divorce, and single motherhood.
Bill is a 58-year-old emergency medicinephysician who woke up to five at 50.
After living paycheck to paychecktogether, they represent what they call
the silent majority people who didn'tstart their financial journey in their
(08:52):
twenties, but are determined to catch up.
The cognitive dissonance between knowingyou need financial security and believing
it's possible versus impossible, createstoxic stress that impacts everything
from your sleep to your immune system.
But here's what the financialindustry doesn't want you to know.
Starting your web building journey at 40.
(09:13):
50 or even 60 might actuallygive you surprising advantages.
Jackie and Bill, welcome tothe Visible Voices podcast.
Thanks, rich.
Thanks for having us.
Oh my gosh.
Love that introduction.
The silent majority, thelargely ignored group.
You have over 150 episodes, amillion downloads of the podcast.
Say more about exactly the audienceto whom you're speaking and this
(09:37):
impetus of the silent majority.
There's just no voice or community for thepeople that are late starters out there.
And you know, I had been a DJ when I wasin high school, and so I reinvented myself
back into the pa. I went back to the past.
Said, you know, and my sonencouraged me because I was like,
uh, I really don't have a voice.
This is intimidating.
(09:57):
Uh, getting a podcast up and started.
I can't believe that itwould actually go anywhere.
And, um, I started with BeckyHetic, who is a retired grandma.
He was generous in giving us hertime to, you know, address, you
know, so many issues that she had.
And starting at 50 with a zero net worth.
And retiring at 63 with 1.3 million.
(10:19):
And it, it's ama it's an amazing story.
And we wanted to get those stories outthere to tell people, you're not alone.
You, you know, you've gotta, you'vegotta overcome the shame, remorse,
regret and anger that you feel atyourself, which can be very destructive.
And, you know, embrace whereyou're at and start afresh.
I went from being a spender to asaver, and that's a very hard journey.
(10:44):
Jackie, the silent majority,what are your thoughts?
Yeah, Risa.
Um, you know, I thought it was a verygood point when you were mentioning that
your age may be more of a secret weaponthan something that that holds you back on
this PHI journey because so many people.
There's a lot of people in thisspace, and Bill was the one that
actually did something about it.
I knew for the longest that this financialindependence retire early community,
(11:08):
mainly were highlighting 30 year olds thathad all figured out right after college.
Well, we knew in our hearts and frompeople that we have talked to many,
many people that that's not the norm.
Those are the anomalies thatthe media loves to spotlight.
And so there's more people that didn'tunderstand their finances when they
were young, only started understandingthem when they made mistakes.
(11:30):
And then they wake up at 30, 40, 50 andrealize, oh my gosh, I didn't know all
of this stuff and I'm getting a late.
Start and we filled a huge gapbecause no one was talking to that
demographic, and we hear it every day.
I'd love each of you to committo one word, just one word that
describes the stories that you hearin this silent majority community.
(11:54):
I've heard shame, I've heard fear.
Anything else?
One word Bill.
One word.
Jackie.
I would say shock.
Everybody has some kind of wealthshock, health shock, uh, divorce shock.
There's always some impetus for me, itwas turning 50 and I realized nobody's
gonna take care of me other than me.
(12:14):
So shock is my word,
and I think my word would be regret.
People when they wake up,they're thinking about.
The things they did wrong, whatthey should have done differently.
And so that's probably the oneword that really sticks in my mind.
How would you say that traumaloss is a way to represent what
got you to fi Jackie, why don'tyou take it first then Bill.
(12:37):
Yeah, I think
my biggest wake up call wasat the time of my divorce.
Now, I had plenty of things before then.
You know, I grew up in poverty andmy dad died when I was 18, before
I graduated from high school.
But at the time of my divorce, Ifinally started paying attention to the
finances, or I was made to, because.
When I looked at the retirement accountsbecause during the divorce they were
(13:00):
to be split up and realized that Ionly had $20,000 in my retirement
account and I was in my mid thirties.
So honestly, I don't know if that wasbad or good, but my husband had $120,000.
So that was the shock that Bill mentioned.
That was regret that I was talking about,and I just, I processed all that and I.
(13:21):
Promised myself that I never wanted tofeel that financially ignorant again.
And I used very blunt words likethat because that's what it was.
And that was the big turning point.
Uh, the trauma was that money wasdealt with as a trauma in my family.
You know, it, it scared me away frommoney, uh, for a very long time.
(13:43):
My dad got audited acouple times on his taxes.
I was like, oh, taxes.
I can understand that.
It, it, it causes trouble.
It caused him a lot of stress.
They didn't talk about moneyand, and so I would look at.
That is trauma.
They got divorced, uh, partly over money.
And then the trauma too for me was mylife was a delayed gratification life.
(14:04):
As a physician, I didn't come out,I didn't have any kind of big income
until my early thirties, and so therewas a lot of catching up to spending.
That I had to do and I got caught inthat, uh, spend first save less mentality
because, you know, there was the big cars,the big houses, there was the doctor life.
I created my own trauma at thatpoint because of ignorance.
(14:26):
I didn't know what anet worth statement was.
I didn't know to track my expenses.
It was just, let's enjoy life inthe moment, but let's, you know.
Not meet our future self.
So the trauma for me was I didn'treverse engineer my life and
realize this is where I want to go.
This is my destination, and what is thepath, what is the plan to get there?
(14:47):
I had no plan.
I've talked about, I wrote this bookcalled Micro Skills, and the premise is
that every overwhelming task project,everything that we're sort of delaying
because we just can't deal with it,we can break things down into small
intentional actions and behaviors.
So right now, what would be onething that you remember that
you did each of you to start?
Turning around this fear, thisshame, this regret, this trauma.
(15:11):
When I realized, you know, at thetime of my divorce, that I didn't
know anything about finances.
You know, there was ashared parent agreement.
So every other weekend mydaughter's dad had her.
So I had to ask myself that reallytough question, like, what do I
wanna do now that I actually enjoy?
And oddly enough.
I was interested in the stock market.
So I was talking to a friendon the phone, a work friend.
(15:34):
She lived in Boston.
I lived in Ohio, and wewere talking about stocks.
I was trying, I had no ideawhat I was doing, right?
But she liked stocks aswell, and we would chat.
And she finally said, you know, there'sa nonprofit organization called Better
Investing, and they're, they have clubsaround the country, investment clubs.
I'm sure they have one near you.
And she said, you should Google it.
So I Googled it and there wasone close to where I lived.
(15:57):
I started going to those meetingsand it did more than just teach
me about the stock market.
Finally, I was around people that wereway smarter than me about stocks and the
market and investing, and I didn't haveto talk about my divorce all the time.
'cause at that time, right after itwas done, it seems like every single
conversation began and ended with that.
(16:19):
So that was my.
Retreat to focus on something thatI knew would be positive and would
feed a curiosity that I had andthat would make me better, and
that opened up my whole world.
That was the beginning for me.
Bill, just one thing.
What
was Just
one thing?
City.
I would agree with that,and I took back my money.
I had given it away to salesmen and aprivate bank that were charging me, and I
(16:43):
didn't pay attention to what I was paying.
So it was sort of a takeback control of your life.
And then getting curiousabout my education.
You know, I had been educated onmedicine, but I had, you know,
and finance and medical health.
But I didn't know whatfinancial health was.
I didn't know what creating wealth was.
I could look rich, but I wasn't Wealthy.
Audience members may or may not besurprised that they don't really
(17:06):
actually teach us about managing money.
Physicians like we really, that'sa deficit in our education, but it
doesn't start in just medicine andmedical school and becoming a doctor.
Jackie, you and I share this interestabout public school education.
It should start way back.
It should be everybody in universalpublic education and both of you're
committed to educating the community.
(17:26):
But Jackie, you've actuallygotten the, the degrees, the
certifications to be an educator.
I looked it up right beforewe jumped on the show.
Uh, right now, 28 states require.
In the process of requiring publichigh school to offer a personal finance
course, 10 states have fully implementedthe process, 18 or in progress, and
Colorado is the most recent state.
(17:48):
Jackie, can you share more with theaudience about your education commitment?
Yes.
What gives me goosebumps, uh, tohear that many states because.
A year ago, it wasn't even half,and now we're up to 28, and that
was my early glimpse into what adifference learning about money made.
(18:09):
On your economic life, like I was on thefree lunch program, uh, struggled as a
kid and to know that learning about moneymoved me from being in poverty and all of
those challenges into the middle class towhere I was actually able to retire early.
Like, to me, that is huge, butI know I'm not the only one.
(18:31):
There's so many smart people that arenot exposed to education about their
money, or maybe they have bad habitsthat they have watched at home and
they don't know what they don't know.
So when you sort of equalize it orattempt to equalize it and put it in
public schools so that every studentthat is attending public school is
getting some type of financial educationnow, is it, is it the end all, be all?
(18:55):
No, but.
To have this requirement to me is ahuge way to lift up, you know, all
Americans to get this information and tobe able to start it when they're young.
I'm in Ohio, thankgoodness Ohio requires it.
That passed a few years ago.
Bills in Tennessee.
Tennessee requires it.
(19:16):
It should be all 50 states,but as much as I can.
I go to high schools and Italk about personal finance.
I'm giving away $2 bills.
I'm singing, I'm dancing, whatever ittakes to get their attention to learn.
Just a little something about money.
So I, I have that huge commitmentand bills along for the ride too.
I mean, there's, there's notmany lessons you need to learn.
(19:37):
It's really simple.
The financial services industrymakes it so complicated.
It puts you off, there's an alphabet soupof choices, and it becomes overwhelming.
So what do you do?
You shut down.
Put your head in the sandlike I did and do nothing.
You know, you gottalearn needs versus wants.
You've gotta learn tosave first spend last.
(19:57):
You've gotta learn to max outyour retirement accounts or get
to the point where you're maxingout your retirement accounts.
I mean, honestly, that's about it.
You know?
If somebody took you aside andtold you these three things, you
would be independent in 20 years.
And I really love that.
Um, I wanna circle back to Bill.
You are just one thing.
You were talking about calling upthe people that were taking money
(20:20):
from you that didn't need to, um,that reminded me of ability that we
have to renegotiate things like ourcable, our, some of our utilities.
I recently called up mymobile phone carrier because.
Monthly went up and I called them, Isaid, hi, why the monthly what happened?
And I said, are there any plans?
I called them and they'relike, well, are you a veteran?
(20:40):
I said, no.
They're like, are you over 55?
I said, actually, yeah, I'm over 55.
It's the first time I've seensomething over 55 benefit me.
They're like, oh, next thing I knew, mymonthly, um, charge dropped $15 a month.
And I was like, win-win.
What's one thing they can do today tocheck to make sure they're cutting down
on some of the unnecessary spending?
(21:01):
Track your expenses.
You gotta know much howmuch you're spending.
And there's a lot of apps for that.
I use Monarch money and, butthere's a lot of apps for that.
Uh, and if you watch where your money'sgoing, you'll be amazed at all the things
that you're paying that you're probablynot using or under utilizing, as you said.
And if you plug the holes in the bucketor the holes in the boat, you'll be
(21:22):
amazed that you know, you'll be hundredsof dollars a month that you could
invest as opposed to, as I say, letthe money slip through your fingers and
slip through the sieve of your life.
If you're not paying attention andyou know, just waking up and paying
attention to where your money'sgoing, and realizing that, you know,
I'm buying lunch every day for $25.
(21:42):
When I could pack my lunch and takeit to work, I can renegotiate all my.
Monthly expenses.
I just recently to resonate withyou renegotiated my cell phone bill
because they had a healthcare, uh,professional discount that I didn't
know about and it was a significantdiscount just like you got over 55 and
I had to change my service for, andI don't have cable, but for internet.
(22:04):
Because you know, I had one company thatjumped up and doubled it, and I ended up
having it from where I was before becauseI was just like, it made me mad and I only
knew about that because I was watching.
Yeah, bill has a really good pointabout the things that are automated.
It's great.
When it comes to investing and us tryingto save automation, but when we have
(22:25):
subscriptions that we just automaticallypay and we never pay attention to the
price, that's a good place to start.
For instance, most of us have ourmortgage payments through escrow, and we
never think about the cost of insurance.
Because it's automatically taken out.
That's worth reviewing,so, so things like that.
But I will mention one of the bigthree that I found to be the most
(22:47):
valuable, the big three is housing,transportation, and, and food.
Let's take transportation now.
A lot of people in the fight movement,they pride themselves with driving high
mileage cars, older, high mileage cars.
I don't, okay, so you don't needto subscribe to every little thing.
I like to drive a luxury car bill.
Kills me with it all the time.
Fine.
But one thing that I, I have decided todo is it's, it doesn't have to be all
(23:11):
or none, so there's always a compromise.
So I don't want to pay$80,000 for a brand new Lexus.
However, my rule of thumb is thatI'd like to get, I, I do like the
Lexus brand, they last longer.
I keep my car for a long time,usually eight to 10 years.
But also I don't buy it brand new.
I usually get it.
My sweet spot is three to five years old.
(23:32):
Where I can get it for about 50%of what it would cost, brand new,
and I keep it eight to 10 years.
Okay?
So I have cut my costs quitea bit, but I'm still driving a
luxury car that I actually enjoy.
So there's always a compromise.
It's not all or none.
If you go just cutting and slashingeverything and all the fun out of your
life is gone, that's not gonna stick.
(23:53):
So I just find ways to make a compromise.
It's graduation season, and guess what?
There's a perfect gift foranyone taking the next big step.
It's called Micro Skills,small Actions, big Impact
co-authored by Dr. Risa e Lewis.
This book breaks down successinto specific intentional
behaviors that anyone can develop.
(24:14):
Whether you're a student entering theworkforce or simply wanting to improve
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What makes this book so special isthat it doesn't offer generic advice.
It provides actionable resourcesthat make a real difference
in all aspects of your life.
(24:35):
Available hardcover, ebook.
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Remember, micro skills, your go-tograduation gift that keeps on
giving throughout life's journey.
This is a time that I'm gonnado a little bit of a plug of
(24:57):
this book, fire for Dummies.
Jackie are the author of this, andmy first question is, how are you
different having written this book?
How am I different?
Well, you know, I had all that stuff in myhead and I think it takes a certain skill
to be able to take what's in your headand actually put it on paper to where.
Other people can understandit and make sense of it.
(25:20):
So I'm not even thebiggest reader out there.
But I love to write and write forcomprehension for other people
to be able to understand it.
And I believe that my lens,you know, I am a divorced black
woman that grew up in poverty.
I'm not the majority of thepeople in the fire movement.
There's very few of my demographic,but I've been exposed to a lot,
(25:43):
and I felt like that helped meto understand, hey, I can explain
this piece better than anyone else.
I can bring these things togetherin a way that no one else can, and
I have that heart of a teacher.
So the education with finances,it's an opportunity to provide
education to so many people.
So it changed me just because it helpedme realize how important it is to take my
(26:08):
story and what I've learned and provideit as a shortcut for other people.
When you believe in what you'vewritten and in what you're sharing
on the mic, it's so easy to shareand it feels great that that
information can be well received,and you're getting that feedback.
Hey, you're making a difference.
This helped me.
I applied that today.
I just did this yesterday.
(26:29):
Speaking of something that I shared, thatI applied, I was reading in the book about
benefactor, I should say, beneficiariesand naming beneficiaries, and there
was something that I wasn't aware ofand you talked about a legacy contact.
Wondering if you can tell theaudience a bit about the importance
of, and what is a legacy contact
these days?
A lot of our lives are digital.
(26:51):
Between what we have on a cloudstorage, like Google do, what's on
our iPhone, what's on our websites,even your podcast library these days.
Um, most people do have an iPhone.
Well, apple has a way that youcan set up a legacy contact.
It's actually right on your phone.
You go into settings andyou can choose that person.
(27:13):
So it makes it easier ifsomething happens to that person.
They have already designatedyou as their legacy contact.
I don't know if Google has one.
Honestly, these days theyall need to be doing it.
Okay.
But not everyone is.
But that is something to think about, thatthere's no easy way to really do it now.
You have to proactively do it.
(27:34):
But since so much of our livesis in the virtual world, having a
legacy contact will give the properperson access when you're gone.
Yeah, I love that ideabecause I certainly have.
A few people that I would definitelymake my legacy contact versus just like.
Leaving it to whoever randomly.
Otherwise, you know, someone who'smaking my health decisions is
(27:55):
different than someone that I wouldhave looking at my digital library.
That's right, that's right.
It's often a different person.
So yeah, I, I attempted to putin as much new information that.
I wasn't seeing out there.
And so there are nuggets like thatthat I just didn't see anywhere
else that I thought would beimportant for, uh, most people.
Bill, I'm wondering what you've seenin terms of changes in the community.
(28:17):
What's been the delta with books,with the podcast, with you actually
reaching this silent majority, thiscommunity, this lost generation.
What's changed?
Um, awareness, vision, uh, thinking about.
Your own health.
Financial capital is notthe only form of capital.
I mean, we talk abouthealth span versus lifespan.
(28:38):
Uh, you see a lot of people livinglonger, but are they living healthy?
Are their finances good enoughto carry them to 95 or a hundred?
Is their physical health good enough sothat they can enjoy being a grandparent?
And I see these.
Active 80 year olds, 90 year olds.
I mean, read Peter Atia and his bookabout living well and, uh, living
(28:59):
with your health span longer so thatyou can enjoy your life and taking
care of your financial health is aspringboard to these other forms of
capital in living a full and long life.
I think it's a great time for me toask each of you about your voice.
When did you realize you had a voiceand when did you start using your voice?
January of 2023.
(29:22):
And I've been thinkingabout it a long time.
'cause I was in analysisparalysis as a physician.
I'm Type A, you know, before Itook over my money, I had to read
a whole library of books, uh, for ayear because I had to be educated.
You know, I, I, I took over thesethings and I felt good about it.
(29:43):
It was like a game.
I mean, when I want to give myselfa gift, I give myself an index fund.
It really helps you realize thatlife is about relationships,
spending money on memories.
You know the stuff, you know, there'shedonic adaptation where you may get
the new car, it may smell great, butin the end it's a thing that takes
you from one place to the other.
(30:04):
It's a utility.
You know, you want to buy utility ina optimized fashion and rent luxury.
You know, we had a boat.
Our boat was named Yolo.
I mean, and, and that was the,that signified what our life was.
We had a lot of good memories withour kids, but you know, we overdid it.
We built a house.
We renovated a house to the nines.
(30:26):
If we hadn't done that and wejust bought just enough house, we
get sold more house than we need.
I'd be financially independent now.
Yeah, and, and I think I gained my voice.
I was still working my corporate joband my daughter was about 14 years
old, and I had been learning allof this financial literacy stuff.
And as a parent, when we learnsomething, the first thing we wanna do.
(30:50):
Share it with our kidsor teach it to our kids.
So when I was in undergrad, mypart of my program was journalism.
I enjoyed writing and I saw thatit was fairly easy to write a book.
You know, you can doself-publishing and all that.
And I'm like, Hmm, I'd love toput all this stuff in a book.
So I started when my daughterwas 14, writing this book.
It's a self-published book calledMoney Letters to my Daughter.
(31:14):
I'm like, how do I really gether to read it at this age?
So I worked hard to make itfun and to increase the chances
of her actually reading it.
So every letter started with Dear Amber,I talked about issues or topics that
were very simple and age appropriate, andI would always sign off with all these
cute little, uh, naming schemes like.
(31:35):
When I talked about credit cards,you know, I kind of called them Crumb
Snatchers because they have all thesefees and stuff, and I'm like, you know,
since Love Mom, you know, mom's againstCrumb Snatchers, I just tried to make
it as fun as possible, which is kindof quirky now that I look back on it.
But it gave me the voice.
Once I got that book published,I wanted to give it to her
for her, um, graduation gift.
(31:57):
So it was done when she was about 17.
So it took me almost threeyears, way too long, but.
I was glad that I got itout into the atmosphere.
My daughter helped me read itand write it without knowing it.
So everybody's like,did she read the book?
I'm like, well, I was writing it.
I would have her reach eachletter, tell me if it made sense.
And right after that book waspublished, all of a sudden I had a lot
(32:17):
of schools reaching out, wanting meto come in and talk about the book.
You know, do a little class.
And that started my whole, the whole ideathat, hey, maybe I can teach other people
about this, not just my own daughter.
So that was my voice.
Yeah, well, the audience will not besurprised that you are both guests
on the Visible Voices Podcast.
You are both certainly visible voices.
(32:39):
If people wanna follow you, readmore, take up all this content.
Jackie and Bill, what's thebest place to keep in touch?
Well, of course we're gonna saythe podcast, catching up to Phi.
Uh, it is just.
Catching up to five.com.
We release new episodes everySundays and sometimes on Wednesdays.
Uh, if we have something to talkabout and my direct email is Jackie
at catching up to five bills.
(32:59):
Is Bill at catching up to five andof course my book, fire for Dummies.
Is available everywhere.
Books are sold.
It's been out about a year.
I'm pretty, I'm very happy with howit's done so as my publisher, but
it does walk you from A to Z aboutreaching financial independence.
Retire early if you want to.
I did retire early, so Ican speak to that as well.
(33:19):
Well, we want folks to join our community.
You can find it at Catching Up to phi.
We have a robust Facebook group wherethe dialogue occurs After the podcast
questions get asked and answered.
We have experts like Bill Banginwho is the father of the 4% rule.
If you've heard of it in the group who'sactive, and we'll answer your questions.
That's a great place to.
(33:41):
Come out of your shell, take yourhead out of the sand, shed your shame
and realize that you're not alone.
Uh, we, we love our audience.
They're very engaged, very enthusiastic.
It feeds our souls, it feeds ourhearts, and we look forward to
every week meeting a new guest thatwe can share with our audience.
Thank you so much for joining me.
Yeah, it's great to be here.
(34:02):
Thanks, RESA.
This was awesome.
The Visible Voices podcastamplifies voices in the healthcare
equity and current trend spaces.
Our team includes Dr. GiulianoDeporte, and me, Dr. Resa e Lewis.
Find me at Risa e LewisMD on social media.
Or visit the website, theVisible Voices podcast.com.
Please give us a five star rating onApple or wherever you listen to podcasts.
(34:24):
Be sure to subscribe, watch, andlisten on YouTube and share the show
with a friend, because together weare making healthcare more equitable,
one visible voice at a time.
This podcast is for educationand entertainment purposes only.
The views and opinions expressedby our hosts and guests are their
own and do not necessarily reflectthe opinions of their institutions.
(34:46):
Information shared here shouldnever substitute for clinical
judgment or for medical advice.
Hello and welcome back to Catching aFI, another Midweek Wednesday episode.
We love sharing these shows thatwe do with others because there's
different twists on life anddifferent things that we talk about.
We hope you enjoy them asmuch as we do, right, Jackie?
Yeah, bill.
And you know what?
This was a fun one.
We got someone, her name is Risa Lewismd, the Visible Voices podcast, and
(00:26):
she asked us some very interestingquestions that we don't often get.
And she is a medical doctor, so she'ssort of, you know, in your field there.
And, she approaches it a little bit.
Differently, but she reached out to meand I'm like, Hey, you're an ER physician.
You gotta know Bill.
So fast forward, shegot us both on the show.
We had a wonderful conversationand we just thought it would be
(00:49):
worth sharing it with our audience.
Yeah, she's also an author.
She's had a bit of a job transitionfrom an emergency medicine physician
like me to an author, and she wrotethis book, micro Skills Small.
Actions, big impact.
This is like the Japanese philosophyat Kaizen, and this is like what Brad
Barrett talks about, the 1% better.
(01:09):
And so, we can all justlike late starters, we can
all get better baby steps.
Take one bite out of theelephant at a time and you'll
be able to eat the elephant.
So I hope you enjoy this show.
Yeah, so take a listen tothe Visible Voices podcast.
(08:08):
This is the Visible Voices Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr. Risa e Lewis.
I'm here with Jackie Cummings Kowski.
It's AKA Jackie, and Dr. Bill, y Billfrom the Catching Up to five podcast.
PHI means financial independence.
Jackie and Bill just celebratedtheir 1000000th podcast download.
Catching Up to Phi is the Mindset,money, and Life podcast specifically
(08:30):
for late starters of any age.
On the journey to financial independence,Jackie reached financial independence
in her forties after navigatingpoverty, divorce, and single motherhood.
Bill is a 58-year-old emergency medicinephysician who woke up to five at 50.
After living paycheck to paychecktogether, they represent what they call
the silent majority people who didn'tstart their financial journey in their
(08:52):
twenties, but are determined to catch up.
The cognitive dissonance between knowingyou need financial security and believing
it's possible versus impossible, createstoxic stress that impacts everything
from your sleep to your immune system.
But here's what the financialindustry doesn't want you to know.
Starting your web building journey at 40.
(09:13):
50 or even 60 might actuallygive you surprising advantages.
Jackie and Bill, welcome tothe Visible Voices podcast.
Thanks, rich.
Thanks for having us.
Oh my gosh.
Love that introduction.
The silent majority, thelargely ignored group.
You have over 150 episodes, amillion downloads of the podcast.
Say more about exactly the audienceto whom you're speaking and this
(09:37):
impetus of the silent majority.
There's just no voice or community for thepeople that are late starters out there.
And you know, I had been a DJ when I wasin high school, and so I reinvented myself
back into the pa. I went back to the past.
Said, you know, and my sonencouraged me because I was like,
uh, I really don't have a voice.
This is intimidating.
(09:57):
Uh, getting a podcast up and started.
I can't believe that itwould actually go anywhere.
And, um, I started with BeckyHetic, who is a retired grandma.
He was generous in giving us hertime to, you know, address, you
know, so many issues that she had.
And starting at 50 with a zero net worth.
And retiring at 63 with 1.3 million.
(10:19):
And it, it's ama it's an amazing story.
And we wanted to get those stories outthere to tell people, you're not alone.
You, you know, you've gotta, you'vegotta overcome the shame, remorse,
regret and anger that you feel atyourself, which can be very destructive.
And, you know, embrace whereyou're at and start afresh.
I went from being a spender to asaver, and that's a very hard journey.
(10:44):
Jackie, the silent majority,what are your thoughts?
Yeah, Risa.
Um, you know, I thought it was a verygood point when you were mentioning that
your age may be more of a secret weaponthan something that that holds you back on
this PHI journey because so many people.
There's a lot of people in thisspace, and Bill was the one that
actually did something about it.
I knew for the longest that this financialindependence retire early community,
(11:08):
mainly were highlighting 30 year olds thathad all figured out right after college.
Well, we knew in our hearts and frompeople that we have talked to many,
many people that that's not the norm.
Those are the anomalies thatthe media loves to spotlight.
And so there's more people that didn'tunderstand their finances when they
were young, only started understandingthem when they made mistakes.
(11:30):
And then they wake up at 30, 40, 50 andrealize, oh my gosh, I didn't know all
of this stuff and I'm getting a late.
Start and we filled a huge gapbecause no one was talking to that
demographic, and we hear it every day.
I'd love each of you to committo one word, just one word that
describes the stories that you hearin this silent majority community.
(11:54):
I've heard shame, I've heard fear.
Anything else?
One word Bill.
One word.
Jackie.
I would say shock.
Everybody has some kind of wealthshock, health shock, uh, divorce shock.
There's always some impetus for me, itwas turning 50 and I realized nobody's
gonna take care of me other than me.
(12:14):
So shock is my word,
and I think my word would be regret.
People when they wake up,they're thinking about.
The things they did wrong, whatthey should have done differently.
And so that's probably the oneword that really sticks in my mind.
How would you say that traumaloss is a way to represent what
got you to fi Jackie, why don'tyou take it first then Bill.
(12:37):
Yeah, I think
my biggest wake up call wasat the time of my divorce.
Now, I had plenty of things before then.
You know, I grew up in poverty andmy dad died when I was 18, before
I graduated from high school.
But at the time of my divorce, Ifinally started paying attention to the
finances, or I was made to, because.
When I looked at the retirement accountsbecause during the divorce they were
(13:00):
to be split up and realized that Ionly had $20,000 in my retirement
account and I was in my mid thirties.
So honestly, I don't know if that wasbad or good, but my husband had $120,000.
So that was the shock that Bill mentioned.
That was regret that I was talking about,and I just, I processed all that and I.
(13:21):
Promised myself that I never wanted tofeel that financially ignorant again.
And I used very blunt words likethat because that's what it was.
And that was the big turning point.
Uh, the trauma was that money wasdealt with as a trauma in my family.
You know, it, it scared me away frommoney, uh, for a very long time.
(13:43):
My dad got audited acouple times on his taxes.
I was like, oh, taxes.
I can understand that.
It, it, it causes trouble.
It caused him a lot of stress.
They didn't talk about moneyand, and so I would look at.
That is trauma.
They got divorced, uh, partly over money.
And then the trauma too for me was mylife was a delayed gratification life.
(14:04):
As a physician, I didn't come out,I didn't have any kind of big income
until my early thirties, and so therewas a lot of catching up to spending.
That I had to do and I got caught inthat, uh, spend first save less mentality
because, you know, there was the big cars,the big houses, there was the doctor life.
I created my own trauma at thatpoint because of ignorance.
(14:26):
I didn't know what anet worth statement was.
I didn't know to track my expenses.
It was just, let's enjoy life inthe moment, but let's, you know.
Not meet our future self.
So the trauma for me was I didn'treverse engineer my life and
realize this is where I want to go.
This is my destination, and what is thepath, what is the plan to get there?
(14:47):
I had no plan.
I've talked about, I wrote this bookcalled Micro Skills, and the premise is
that every overwhelming task project,everything that we're sort of delaying
because we just can't deal with it,we can break things down into small
intentional actions and behaviors.
So right now, what would be onething that you remember that
you did each of you to start?
Turning around this fear, thisshame, this regret, this trauma.
(15:11):
When I realized, you know, at thetime of my divorce, that I didn't
know anything about finances.
You know, there was ashared parent agreement.
So every other weekend mydaughter's dad had her.
So I had to ask myself that reallytough question, like, what do I
wanna do now that I actually enjoy?
And oddly enough.
I was interested in the stock market.
So I was talking to a friendon the phone, a work friend.
(15:34):
She lived in Boston.
I lived in Ohio, and wewere talking about stocks.
I was trying, I had no ideawhat I was doing, right?
But she liked stocks aswell, and we would chat.
And she finally said, you know, there'sa nonprofit organization called Better
Investing, and they're, they have clubsaround the country, investment clubs.
I'm sure they have one near you.
And she said, you should Google it.
So I Googled it and there wasone close to where I lived.
(15:57):
I started going to those meetingsand it did more than just teach
me about the stock market.
Finally, I was around people that wereway smarter than me about stocks and the
market and investing, and I didn't haveto talk about my divorce all the time.
'cause at that time, right after itwas done, it seems like every single
conversation began and ended with that.
(16:19):
So that was my.
Retreat to focus on something thatI knew would be positive and would
feed a curiosity that I had andthat would make me better, and
that opened up my whole world.
That was the beginning for me.
Bill, just one thing.
What
was Just
one thing?
City.
I would agree with that,and I took back my money.
I had given it away to salesmen and aprivate bank that were charging me, and I
(16:43):
didn't pay attention to what I was paying.
So it was sort of a takeback control of your life.
And then getting curiousabout my education.
You know, I had been educated onmedicine, but I had, you know,
and finance and medical health.
But I didn't know whatfinancial health was.
I didn't know what creating wealth was.
I could look rich, but I wasn't Wealthy.
Audience members may or may not besurprised that they don't really
(17:06):
actually teach us about managing money.
Physicians like we really, that'sa deficit in our education, but it
doesn't start in just medicine andmedical school and becoming a doctor.
Jackie, you and I share this interestabout public school education.
It should start way back.
It should be everybody in universalpublic education and both of you're
committed to educating the community.
(17:26):
But Jackie, you've actuallygotten the, the degrees, the
certifications to be an educator.
I looked it up right beforewe jumped on the show.
Uh, right now, 28 states require.
In the process of requiring publichigh school to offer a personal finance
course, 10 states have fully implementedthe process, 18 or in progress, and
Colorado is the most recent state.
(17:48):
Jackie, can you share more with theaudience about your education commitment?
Yes.
What gives me goosebumps, uh, tohear that many states because.
A year ago, it wasn't even half,and now we're up to 28, and that
was my early glimpse into what adifference learning about money made.
(18:09):
On your economic life, like I was on thefree lunch program, uh, struggled as a
kid and to know that learning about moneymoved me from being in poverty and all of
those challenges into the middle class towhere I was actually able to retire early.
Like, to me, that is huge, butI know I'm not the only one.
(18:31):
There's so many smart people that arenot exposed to education about their
money, or maybe they have bad habitsthat they have watched at home and
they don't know what they don't know.
So when you sort of equalize it orattempt to equalize it and put it in
public schools so that every studentthat is attending public school is
getting some type of financial educationnow, is it, is it the end all, be all?
(18:55):
No, but.
To have this requirement to me is ahuge way to lift up, you know, all
Americans to get this information and tobe able to start it when they're young.
I'm in Ohio, thankgoodness Ohio requires it.
That passed a few years ago.
Bills in Tennessee.
Tennessee requires it.
(19:16):
It should be all 50 states,but as much as I can.
I go to high schools and Italk about personal finance.
I'm giving away $2 bills.
I'm singing, I'm dancing, whatever ittakes to get their attention to learn.
Just a little something about money.
So I, I have that huge commitmentand bills along for the ride too.
I mean, there's, there's notmany lessons you need to learn.
(19:37):
It's really simple.
The financial services industrymakes it so complicated.
It puts you off, there's an alphabet soupof choices, and it becomes overwhelming.
So what do you do?
You shut down.
Put your head in the sandlike I did and do nothing.
You know, you gottalearn needs versus wants.
You've gotta learn tosave first spend last.
(19:57):
You've gotta learn to max outyour retirement accounts or get
to the point where you're maxingout your retirement accounts.
I mean, honestly, that's about it.
You know?
If somebody took you aside andtold you these three things, you
would be independent in 20 years.
And I really love that.
Um, I wanna circle back to Bill.
You are just one thing.
You were talking about calling upthe people that were taking money
(20:20):
from you that didn't need to, um,that reminded me of ability that we
have to renegotiate things like ourcable, our, some of our utilities.
I recently called up mymobile phone carrier because.
Monthly went up and I called them, Isaid, hi, why the monthly what happened?
And I said, are there any plans?
I called them and they'relike, well, are you a veteran?
(20:40):
I said, no.
They're like, are you over 55?
I said, actually, yeah, I'm over 55.
It's the first time I've seensomething over 55 benefit me.
They're like, oh, next thing I knew, mymonthly, um, charge dropped $15 a month.
And I was like, win-win.
What's one thing they can do today tocheck to make sure they're cutting down
on some of the unnecessary spending?
(21:01):
Track your expenses.
You gotta know much howmuch you're spending.
And there's a lot of apps for that.
I use Monarch money and, butthere's a lot of apps for that.
Uh, and if you watch where your money'sgoing, you'll be amazed at all the things
that you're paying that you're probablynot using or under utilizing, as you said.
And if you plug the holes in the bucketor the holes in the boat, you'll be
(21:22):
amazed that you know, you'll be hundredsof dollars a month that you could
invest as opposed to, as I say, letthe money slip through your fingers and
slip through the sieve of your life.
If you're not paying attention andyou know, just waking up and paying
attention to where your money'sgoing, and realizing that, you know,
I'm buying lunch every day for $25.
(21:42):
When I could pack my lunch and takeit to work, I can renegotiate all my.
Monthly expenses.
I just recently to resonate withyou renegotiated my cell phone bill
because they had a healthcare, uh,professional discount that I didn't
know about and it was a significantdiscount just like you got over 55 and
I had to change my service for, andI don't have cable, but for internet.
(22:04):
Because you know, I had one company thatjumped up and doubled it, and I ended up
having it from where I was before becauseI was just like, it made me mad and I only
knew about that because I was watching.
Yeah, bill has a really good pointabout the things that are automated.
It's great.
When it comes to investing and us tryingto save automation, but when we have
(22:25):
subscriptions that we just automaticallypay and we never pay attention to the
price, that's a good place to start.
For instance, most of us have ourmortgage payments through escrow, and we
never think about the cost of insurance.
Because it's automatically taken out.
That's worth reviewing,so, so things like that.
But I will mention one of the bigthree that I found to be the most
(22:47):
valuable, the big three is housing,transportation, and, and food.
Let's take transportation now.
A lot of people in the fight movement,they pride themselves with driving high
mileage cars, older, high mileage cars.
I don't, okay, so you don't needto subscribe to every little thing.
I like to drive a luxury car bill.
Kills me with it all the time.
Fine.
But one thing that I, I have decided todo is it's, it doesn't have to be all
(23:11):
or none, so there's always a compromise.
So I don't want to pay$80,000 for a brand new Lexus.
However, my rule of thumb is thatI'd like to get, I, I do like the
Lexus brand, they last longer.
I keep my car for a long time,usually eight to 10 years.
But also I don't buy it brand new.
I usually get it.
My sweet spot is three to five years old.
(23:32):
Where I can get it for about 50%of what it would cost, brand new,
and I keep it eight to 10 years.
Okay?
So I have cut my costs quitea bit, but I'm still driving a
luxury car that I actually enjoy.
So there's always a compromise.
It's not all or none.
If you go just cutting and slashingeverything and all the fun out of your
life is gone, that's not gonna stick.
(23:53):
So I just find ways to make a compromise.
It's graduation season, and guess what?
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It's called Micro Skills,small Actions, big Impact
co-authored by Dr. Risa e Lewis.
This book breaks down successinto specific intentional
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(24:14):
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What makes this book so special isthat it doesn't offer generic advice.
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(24:35):
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giving throughout life's journey.
This is a time that I'm gonnado a little bit of a plug of
(24:57):
this book, fire for Dummies.
Jackie are the author of this, andmy first question is, how are you
different having written this book?
How am I different?
Well, you know, I had all that stuff in myhead and I think it takes a certain skill
to be able to take what's in your headand actually put it on paper to where.
Other people can understandit and make sense of it.
(25:20):
So I'm not even thebiggest reader out there.
But I love to write and write forcomprehension for other people
to be able to understand it.
And I believe that my lens,you know, I am a divorced black
woman that grew up in poverty.
I'm not the majority of thepeople in the fire movement.
There's very few of my demographic,but I've been exposed to a lot,
(25:43):
and I felt like that helped meto understand, hey, I can explain
this piece better than anyone else.
I can bring these things togetherin a way that no one else can, and
I have that heart of a teacher.
So the education with finances,it's an opportunity to provide
education to so many people.
So it changed me just because it helpedme realize how important it is to take my
(26:08):
story and what I've learned and provideit as a shortcut for other people.
When you believe in what you'vewritten and in what you're sharing
on the mic, it's so easy to shareand it feels great that that
information can be well received,and you're getting that feedback.
Hey, you're making a difference.
This helped me.
I applied that today.
I just did this yesterday.
(26:29):
Speaking of something that I shared, thatI applied, I was reading in the book about
benefactor, I should say, beneficiariesand naming beneficiaries, and there
was something that I wasn't aware ofand you talked about a legacy contact.
Wondering if you can tell theaudience a bit about the importance
of, and what is a legacy contact
these days?
A lot of our lives are digital.
(26:51):
Between what we have on a cloudstorage, like Google do, what's on
our iPhone, what's on our websites,even your podcast library these days.
Um, most people do have an iPhone.
Well, apple has a way that youcan set up a legacy contact.
It's actually right on your phone.
You go into settings andyou can choose that person.
(27:13):
So it makes it easier ifsomething happens to that person.
They have already designatedyou as their legacy contact.
I don't know if Google has one.
Honestly, these days theyall need to be doing it.
Okay.
But not everyone is.
But that is something to think about, thatthere's no easy way to really do it now.
You have to proactively do it.
(27:34):
But since so much of our livesis in the virtual world, having a
legacy contact will give the properperson access when you're gone.
Yeah, I love that ideabecause I certainly have.
A few people that I would definitelymake my legacy contact versus just like.
Leaving it to whoever randomly.
Otherwise, you know, someone who'smaking my health decisions is
(27:55):
different than someone that I wouldhave looking at my digital library.
That's right, that's right.
It's often a different person.
So yeah, I, I attempted to putin as much new information that.
I wasn't seeing out there.
And so there are nuggets like thatthat I just didn't see anywhere
else that I thought would beimportant for, uh, most people.
Bill, I'm wondering what you've seenin terms of changes in the community.
(28:17):
What's been the delta with books,with the podcast, with you actually
reaching this silent majority, thiscommunity, this lost generation.
What's changed?
Um, awareness, vision, uh, thinking about.
Your own health.
Financial capital is notthe only form of capital.
I mean, we talk abouthealth span versus lifespan.
(28:38):
Uh, you see a lot of people livinglonger, but are they living healthy?
Are their finances good enoughto carry them to 95 or a hundred?
Is their physical health good enough sothat they can enjoy being a grandparent?
And I see these.
Active 80 year olds, 90 year olds.
I mean, read Peter Atia and his bookabout living well and, uh, living
(28:59):
with your health span longer so thatyou can enjoy your life and taking
care of your financial health is aspringboard to these other forms of
capital in living a full and long life.
I think it's a great time for me toask each of you about your voice.
When did you realize you had a voiceand when did you start using your voice?
January of 2023.
(29:22):
And I've been thinkingabout it a long time.
'cause I was in analysisparalysis as a physician.
I'm Type A, you know, before Itook over my money, I had to read
a whole library of books, uh, for ayear because I had to be educated.
You know, I, I, I took over thesethings and I felt good about it.
(29:43):
It was like a game.
I mean, when I want to give myselfa gift, I give myself an index fund.
It really helps you realize thatlife is about relationships,
spending money on memories.
You know the stuff, you know, there'shedonic adaptation where you may get
the new car, it may smell great, butin the end it's a thing that takes
you from one place to the other.
(30:04):
It's a utility.
You know, you want to buy utility ina optimized fashion and rent luxury.
You know, we had a boat.
Our boat was named Yolo.
I mean, and, and that was the,that signified what our life was.
We had a lot of good memories withour kids, but you know, we overdid it.
We built a house.
We renovated a house to the nines.
(30:26):
If we hadn't done that and wejust bought just enough house, we
get sold more house than we need.
I'd be financially independent now.
Yeah, and, and I think I gained my voice.
I was still working my corporate joband my daughter was about 14 years
old, and I had been learning allof this financial literacy stuff.
And as a parent, when we learnsomething, the first thing we wanna do.
(30:50):
Share it with our kidsor teach it to our kids.
So when I was in undergrad, mypart of my program was journalism.
I enjoyed writing and I saw thatit was fairly easy to write a book.
You know, you can doself-publishing and all that.
And I'm like, Hmm, I'd love toput all this stuff in a book.
So I started when my daughterwas 14, writing this book.
It's a self-published book calledMoney Letters to my Daughter.
(31:14):
I'm like, how do I really gether to read it at this age?
So I worked hard to make itfun and to increase the chances
of her actually reading it.
So every letter started with Dear Amber,I talked about issues or topics that
were very simple and age appropriate, andI would always sign off with all these
cute little, uh, naming schemes like.
(31:35):
When I talked about credit cards,you know, I kind of called them Crumb
Snatchers because they have all thesefees and stuff, and I'm like, you know,
since Love Mom, you know, mom's againstCrumb Snatchers, I just tried to make
it as fun as possible, which is kindof quirky now that I look back on it.
But it gave me the voice.
Once I got that book published,I wanted to give it to her
for her, um, graduation gift.
(31:57):
So it was done when she was about 17.
So it took me almost threeyears, way too long, but.
I was glad that I got itout into the atmosphere.
My daughter helped me read itand write it without knowing it.
So everybody's like,did she read the book?
I'm like, well, I was writing it.
I would have her reach eachletter, tell me if it made sense.
And right after that book waspublished, all of a sudden I had a lot
(32:17):
of schools reaching out, wanting meto come in and talk about the book.
You know, do a little class.
And that started my whole, the whole ideathat, hey, maybe I can teach other people
about this, not just my own daughter.
So that was my voice.
Yeah, well, the audience will not besurprised that you are both guests
on the Visible Voices Podcast.
You are both certainly visible voices.
(32:39):
If people wanna follow you, readmore, take up all this content.
Jackie and Bill, what's thebest place to keep in touch?
Well, of course we're gonna saythe podcast, catching up to Phi.
Uh, it is just.
Catching up to five.com.
We release new episodes everySundays and sometimes on Wednesdays.
Uh, if we have something to talkabout and my direct email is Jackie
at catching up to five bills.
(32:59):
Is Bill at catching up to five andof course my book, fire for Dummies.
Is available everywhere.
Books are sold.
It's been out about a year.
I'm pretty, I'm very happy with howit's done so as my publisher, but
it does walk you from A to Z aboutreaching financial independence.
Retire early if you want to.
I did retire early, so Ican speak to that as well.
(33:19):
Well, we want folks to join our community.
You can find it at Catching Up to phi.
We have a robust Facebook group wherethe dialogue occurs After the podcast
questions get asked and answered.
We have experts like Bill Banginwho is the father of the 4% rule.
If you've heard of it in the group who'sactive, and we'll answer your questions.
That's a great place to.
(33:41):
Come out of your shell, take yourhead out of the sand, shed your shame
and realize that you're not alone.
Uh, we, we love our audience.
They're very engaged, very enthusiastic.
It feeds our souls, it feeds ourhearts, and we look forward to
every week meeting a new guest thatwe can share with our audience.
Thank you so much for joining me.
Yeah, it's great to be here.
(34:02):
Thanks, RESA.
This was awesome.
The Visible Voices podcastamplifies voices in the healthcare
equity and current trend spaces.
Our team includes Dr. GiulianoDeporte, and me, Dr. Resa e Lewis.
Find me at Risa e LewisMD on social media.
Or visit the website, theVisible Voices podcast.com.
Please give us a five star rating onApple or wherever you listen to podcasts.
(34:24):
Be sure to subscribe, watch, andlisten on YouTube and share the show
with a friend, because together weare making healthcare more equitable,
one visible voice at a time.
This podcast is for educationand entertainment purposes only.
The views and opinions expressedby our hosts and guests are their
own and do not necessarily reflectthe opinions of their institutions.
(34:46):
Information shared here shouldnever substitute for clinical
judgment or for medical advice.
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