Good Times with rich & REGULAR | Julien and Kiersten Saunders | 145 - Catching Up to FI: Financial Independence for Late Starters

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
we were definitely broke, but wewere not like the absolute worst case
scenario or the worst things imaginable.
But a lot of those things carried overfor me into my twenties and thirties.
And so even when I had, I startedearning a good bit of money after school
and after really climbing my way upthe corporate ladder, a lot of those

(00:22):
beliefs around scarcity and work andoverwork had really started to compound
and affect the way that I was treatingmyself and certainly the way that I
was viewing the world and what I'd sooncame realize how I started to treat
other people who were important to me.
Like this one over here?
I spent the rest of my adolescence herein Atlanta surrounded by successful

(00:47):
black people seeing black government.
I went to college and in North Carolinaand I just had a very different
understanding of how money flowed I felt.
That it was accessible to me.
I was aware of, you know, racismand stereotypes, but I never felt
limited by it in a very real way.
And so that certainly shapedthe way that I viewed money.

(01:09):
I felt like I, it was always availablethat I just needed to find it, get
access to it, and I spent a lot oftime believing that making money
was much easier than managing it.
And that's what led me to moundsand mounds of credit card debt
the 15 year career is basicallylooking at your career instead of
this 30, 40 year, however long youwant it to be, sort of marathon.

(01:33):
And shrinking that into a bit of a 15year sprint that's broken up into five.
Year, sort of increments.
The first five years with respect tomanaging your debt is really being
aggressive and doing everything thatyou can to get that under control,
keeping your cost of living as lowor as reasonably low as possible with
the primary focus of paying off thatdebt and maximizing your investing.

(01:57):
Your six through 10 are really aroundrecognizing that you've gone through
that period, and now with this extracash flow or extra cushion that you have
from paying off that debt, you can reallyramp up your investments above and beyond
the standard recommended hit to 15%.

(02:44):
Hello and welcome backto Catching Up Tophi.
We are so excited for today becauseit was planned in the past, but
we had to reschedule and I am ableto be here for a conversation.
I was so excited about being a partof and I couldn't at the last time.
So, Jackie, introduce thesefabulous guests that we have.
Yeah, I think this is atime that was meant to be.

(03:06):
We've got Julian and Kirsten Saunders, butI remember when we tried to record before
you got the last minute opportunity to seeyour son, so that was absolutely worth it.
And they had this crazy noisegoing on that just wouldn't let up.
But you know what, we are excited becausethis was just meant to be So let me
introduce Kirsten and Julian Saunders.
They are authors of the book CashingOut Win the Wealth Game by Walking Away,

(03:31):
published by Penguin Random House in 2023.
It was named Best Overall Book.
About investing by BusinessInsider and one of the best
personal finance books by Forbes.
They are also the creative voices behindthe blog, rich and regular, which is
how I know them from back in the day.
They are host and producers of theaward-winning video series, money On the

(03:52):
Table, the highest quality YouTube you canfind, and they're also hosts of the Rich
and regular podcast, which has earned over3 million downloads since this launch.
So what started as a blog in 2017 hasgrown into a multimedia powerhouse
and all centered around their mission.
To inspire betterconversations about money.

(04:15):
Their fascinating money storyhas been featured in the New
York Times CBS this morning.
Good Morning America, the OprahWinfrey Network MarketWatch,
Forbes, and the documentaryPlaying with Fire and so much more.
They are based in Atlanta, Georgia,and they have one son, Bo, who's
got some fierce baseball skills andjust might be the next MLB standout.

(04:39):
So Julian and Kirsten, welcometo Catching up to five.
Wow.
Thank you.
That was awesome.
Yeah,
Yeah, well there's so much more toit, but you guys have your hands
in just about everything and you'remaking a huge difference in our
space and outside of our space.
We're just happy to have you on the show.
And you said you were happy to beguests and no longer, hosting for

(05:01):
a change makes it a little biteasier 'cause we got all the stress.
yeah.
Meanwhile, I'm still over heretinkering with sound like I don't know
how, I don't know how to be a guest,so I feel it feels like I'm new.
Yeah.
You
Okay.
two mics.
You're looking good.
So we're just thrilled to have you today.
Like I said, it was meant to be,so we had a lot to talk about.
I remember when you guys were, Ithink, both working when you started

(05:25):
Rich and Regular, were, were you bothworking when you first started it?
We sure were.
Yeah.
Yeah.
In 2017.
Yeah.
And then has transitioned to a cashingout episode, which we'll get to.
But in order to understand you a littlebetter, I think we have to talk a
little bit about your individual moneystories, because one of the strengths

(05:45):
you have in your book and in yourplatform is you help couples overcome
differences with their money stories.
Julian, maybe you'll start and tellus about where you came from, and
Kirsten came from a drasticallydifferent background and we'll
have to hear her story as well.
Yeah, so my story really begins inBrooklyn, New York, in the 1980s.

(06:05):
I just knew it as home at the time.
It really wasn't until, the twothousands where you started to watch
documentaries and people reflectingback on the eighties in New York and
the Reagan era and start of calling itthe sort of drug era or the crack era.
I remember seeing those things,but again, at the time it was
just what I saw as normal.

(06:27):
Obviously as someone who's in theirmid forties now, I look back and.
Actually do sort of cringe a little bitat some of the things that I thought was
just completely normal, but it was justa regular everyday upbringing for me.
And for the most part, we didn'tlive in the worst part of Brooklyn.
We lived kind of like a littleaway from it, but you still saw
those things every single day.

(06:47):
But, you know, you could see where themoney was and it wasn't where we were.
It was like across the riverover there in Manhattan.
And my mom worked in Manhattan.
My father worked there as well.
We didn't have much, again, itwasn't the worst, but that was all
relative compared to some thingsthat were really, really bad.
I grew up in a mostly Caribbeanhousehold, and so with that comes a

(07:08):
really strong set of cultural beliefsaround work ethic and Christianity.
And so all of that to say, we weren't,I mean, we were definitely broke, but
we were not like the absolute worst casescenario or the worst things imaginable.
But a lot of those things carried overfor me into my twenties and thirties.

(07:29):
And so even when I had, I startedearning a good bit of money after school
and after really climbing my way upthe corporate ladder, a lot of those
beliefs around scarcity and work andoverwork had really started to compound
and affect the way that I was treatingmyself and certainly the way that I
was viewing the world and what I'd sooncame realize how I started to treat

(07:51):
other people who were important to me.
Like this one over here?
you referred to your lifeupbringing as the Good Times Life
upbringing, as in the TV show.
Kirsten refers to her upbringingin the American middle class
in Texas as the Cosby Show.
Yeah.
why?
Why did you say that?
Kirsten?

(08:11):
Was it?
Is it really true?
I love the analogy
I mean, it was one of the fewrepresentation that we had on television
of middle class black families.
I mean, later on when I was older,there was like family matters.
And you know, a differentworld came after that.
But at the time, it was one ofthe few representations that we
had, and my life was very similar.

(08:32):
My parents weren't doctors and lawyers,but they were in corporate America.
And in the eighties and nineties tosee black people in corporate America
was just like very rare, especiallyif they're not in secretarial
positions or some other admin roles.
And so, yeah, to yourpoint, I'm, from Texas.
I'm like fourth or fifth generation Texan,like just the whole family was there.

(08:54):
My grandmother was actuallyborn on a sharecropper field in
Louisiana when she was a baby.
And then they moved to Texas once they.
Got officially free from that contract.
And so we've raised tonsand tons of family members.
I come from a big family.
We moved to Atlanta when I was inelementary school, so kindergarten,

(09:14):
first grade, and I spent the restof my adolescence here in Atlanta
surrounded by successful blackpeople seeing black government.
I went to college and in North Carolinaand I just had a very different
understanding of how money flowed I felt.
That it was accessible to me.
I was aware of, you know, racismand stereotypes, but I never felt

(09:37):
limited by it in a very real way.
And so that certainly shapedthe way that I viewed money.
I felt like I, it was always availablethat I just needed to find it, get
access to it, and I spent a lot oftime believing that making money
was much easier than managing it.
And that's what led me to mounds andmounds of credit card debt like I

(09:58):
was, I got hit with the consumerismbug very early and very fast, and
by the time we met, I just had atotally different mindset about
spending and earning than he did.
Presumably because of our backgrounds,because of the access and exposure we'd
had to money our lives, all our lives.
So we're gonna talk a little bit moreabout that credit card debt, but Julian

(10:21):
obviously money wasn't flowing foryou as you were growing up, and you
did go to college and did you haveto pay your own way through school?
Like what was that experience like?
Trying to get yourself throughcollege and, and earn a degree?
Yeah, so this is where theJamaican joke comes in, right?
So if there's one thing we knowabout Jamaicans is that they're gonna
have multiple jobs, and that wassomething that I took great pride in.

(10:44):
And so I did take out studentloans, but I was always working.
I worked through, andI have three degrees.
I I graduated from culinary school, soin a past life I was a professional chef.
I graduated from culinaryschool while working fulltime.
I went to undergrad and got a businessdegree and worked full time while also.
Being a student leader andthen in graduate school, I went

(11:07):
through the MBA program whileworking full-time and working
part-time at the actual university.
And the reason why I did thatlast part was because I learned
during undergrad that if you didan assistantship, you a graduate
assistantship, you could essentially beconsidered an employee of the school.
And as a result, one of the benefitswas you would waive tuition.

(11:29):
And so I basically earned my MBA withbasically, I think tuition was $25.
And then I was paid a stipendon top of that for the work
that I was doing for the school.
That's incredible.
I mean, , Jackie workedher way through school.
one of those sort of privilegedupper middle class people that
really didn't have to do that.
But I leveraged scholarships youknow, I worked all the way through

(11:51):
things, but I didn't have to pay formy own school due to scholarships
and assistance from my father.
I am very impressed withstories like yours, Julian,
and like Jackie's, where, you
.Double duty really working through school and in that way, leverage
the ability to come out debt free.
And one of the things, Julian, that,with all your focus on money and the,

(12:13):
the problem that Kirsten had withcredit card debt in moving into the
relationship when you met, there was abit of a problem, a bit of strife and
conflict and friction here because, andI'll out you here, if I knew you had
credit card debt, I never would've dated
Mm-hmm.
that that was a bit testy.

(12:34):
You know, and you knew your budget.
Like, you know, everybody elseknew their social security number.
And Kristen had upwards of like$30,000 of credit card debt.
What happened there?
Because this led, if I may say to abreakup of the relationship and you
had to remit yourselves back together.
Tell us that story.
Yeah.
yeah.
Tell him that story, Julianne.

(12:54):
It's really weird hearing it now.
'cause obviously we did write thosewords and it did happen like that.
That's exactly what happened.
That's exactly what I said.
And I was trying to be hurtful, but alsobeing really clear about where I felt.
And the reason for that was because Ijust knew where I wanted to go and I
knew the role that debt had played inmy life, and I just did not believe

(13:18):
at the time that I could build a.
A life with someone who did nothave a similar understanding of
wealth building and debt management.
Now, I was obviously wrong about thatand I didn't give her enough credit for
her ability to change and I certainlydid not give, or I gave myself a bit
too much credit because I felt likemy strict and inflexible belief and

(13:40):
understanding on money was just the rightway and that there was no wiggle room.
And so all of that to say, I'm glad wehad that argument and I'm still glad
today because without that argument,before us really deciding to build a
life together, I don't know that wewould've had the kinds of transparent
conversations that we had around debt.
And I don't know that we would've beenforced to confront our own beliefs

(14:02):
because again, it was not just mereacting to the debt that she had because.
Respectfully, that does not soundlike that much debt now, but back
then it seemed like it was such a,a huge insurmountable, like grossly
irresponsible amount of debt.
But at the time it justfelt like, that's crazy.
I can't believe you would go so longwithout taking care of this thing.

(14:24):
And so, you know, lookingback it's different.
But like I said, I'm glad that we had thatconfrontation and that we grew from it.
Yeah.
And Julian, I'm thinking, you know,you were kind of working your way
through what you had to pay and Kirstenwas sitting there, sorry, Kristen,
Yeah, yeah,
saying, oh, the money's flowing.
Why you working
yeah.

(14:45):
Keep
the party going.
So, Kirsten, so Kirsten are you glad youhad that blow up and that disagreement?
I am, I am.
And I can only say that withthe 2020 vision of hindsight.
'cause at the time I was hot, I wasembarrassed and I did not understand.
But I am very grateful for the timingof that intervention because if I had

(15:06):
carried all of that debt with no urgencyon how to fix it or prevent it from
happening again into my thirties, mylife would be very different right now.
Like there wouldn't be a cashing out,there wouldn't be a story of being
able to save and invest large amountsof money, during my peak earning years

(15:26):
or what I thought were my peak earningyears, there just wouldn't have been
the conclusion that we're at now.
And so I am grateful.
I wish it had happened differently,but you don't get to choose.
Like sometimes the conflictis just how it comes.
And the only thing that youcan do is decide what role that
moment plays in your larger story.
Well, I had the same problem.

(15:47):
I. Amount of residency with 25,$30,000 of credit card debt.
And I really feel for students these days,professional students that are coming
out with six figures of debt because,you know, that's an anchor around a
relationship that you have to figureout a way that you're gonna manage.
You guys referred to Kirsten's debtas debt was like the sun to her.

(16:09):
She loved to bask in it, and she'dnever look at straight in the eye.
And I felt, very much the same way.
I had revolving credit card debt.
I'm like, okay, this is no problem.
I'm you know, Americans you know, liveon debt and bring their expenses forward.
I deserve these vacations likethe one you had, the Panama
Mm-hmm.
some trouble there.
And you know, it just wasn't top ofmind, you know, and you said too, and

(16:32):
I'd like to quote you here becausethese are important statements.
I was more embarrassed that I'd opened myheart to a man who refused to compromise.
And I was about having the debt.
Facts.
and then you and you know, because these,these are harsh words on both sides.
Bill does his homework, you
And then, and then, then
you said, you said, doyou really mean that?
And you were used to living big,loving big, spending big, giving big.

(16:55):
Because you were from Texas.
And that's just what we
Mm-hmm.
So you refer to, after all this,in your book you talk about
fighting and this is a money fight.
And we know that, 50% ofmarriages end up in divorce and
money is the primary factor.
You refer to fighting as a dance.
And I found this really interesting.
Can you tell us why yourefer to fighting as a dance?

(17:18):
Yeah, that was one of the insights thatwe got from a behavioral therapist when
we were doing research for the book, butit reflected the way that we had always
talked and thought about our relationshipand the role that money plays in it.
But basically the idea thatit's a dance is that each of
you have your own narrativerunning in the back of your head.

(17:40):
Some of it can be identitybased on where you're from.
Like I'm from Texas, we do thingsbig, or I'm Jamaican, we work multiple
jobs, or I come from a long lineof teachers, so I have to teach in
schools, I have to do these things.
Everybody has their own narrativegoing in their head, and you
should think of it as a song.
And so when there is a conflict, it'susually because one person is listening

(18:05):
to, I don't know, Barry White, and theother person is listening to Drake.
And you can't, get on the same pagebecause you are hearing different songs.
And so what we practiced was emotionalattunement, which is trying to get
into the same rhythm, trying to ask theright questions, take the right tone,
find the right environments, the righttimes to have conversations so that you

(18:28):
can be attuned emotionally with yourpartner and actually make progress in
the conversations that you're having.
Otherwise, it just sounds like someone'snagging you or blaming you or judging
you, instead of actually just inquiringabout like, how can we move forward
with this shared problem that we have?
Yeah, well, you know, bill is quotinga lot of your relationship stuff in

(18:49):
your book, but I have to say, my bigtakeaways from the book Cashing Out
and, you know, still out there onAmazon still to me, one of those seminal
books that you could always go back to.
It really spoke to me because, you know, Iretired early, you know, 2019 and I really
didn't title it that way, but that'skind of exactly what I feel like I did.

(19:10):
A lot of us are brought up, youwork your, you know, 20, 30, 40
years with corporate America.
That's how you do it.
You get a good job with good benefits.
That's what I was taught andthe idea of like walking away.
Cashing out as you say, andyou're still gonna be okay.
Like that makes a huge difference.
So you talked a lot about that

(19:30):
15 year career philosophy.
So tell us a little bit about that.
'cause I, I'm thinking about what's beengoing on this year, a lot of layoffs,
especially with the federal government.
And I feel like that book iskind of almost has new meaning
for a lot of people today.
Because when it comes to a job, you'renot the only one in the formula, right?
Even if you love your job, the boss couldsay you're gone, or somebody else that

(19:53):
you don't even know could say, that's it.
And now you gotta figure something out.
So I love this idea ofthis 15 career philosophy.
Now, I worked a lot longer than that.
It was 21 years for this last company.
But honestly, I wish I would've had thisbook and I wish I would've done it early.
Yeah.
So thank you for that.
And I completely agree with you becausewe've received so many notes from

(20:14):
new readers, and we believe it's frompeople who've read it when the book
came out, and they're realizing thatthe moment and the time that we're in.
Is a great introduction in Springboard.
So I believe there are a lot of peoplewho've read the book sort of in that
earlier wave when it was first released,that are now recommending it to a
lot of the people that they see arestruggling and dealing with managing
the debt, managing the money, managingthe stress that comes with their

(20:37):
experiences in the workplace and just.
Trying to find this balance between justthe constant looming threat of a layoff
and that creating this domino effectof just life completely falling apart.
But what we've recommended in ourbook is to begin with the end in mind.
Or if you think about it like a vacation.
If you were planning a vacationlike many of us do, let's say to the

(21:00):
Caribbean, and you happen to check theforecast and you realizes that it's
gonna rain at a minimum, you wouldreevaluate what you're gonna pack.
Maybe you're gonna bring acouple extra pairs of shoes.
Maybe you're gonna bring a differentumbrella, or maybe you're gonna cancel
certain things that you had plannedbecause you realize that it may not
be wise to particularly do that.

(21:21):
And what we find that a lot of people dois they walk into their careers very much
wide-eyed or what do they call it, likebright-eyed and bushy tail, bushy tail.
And they just believe thateverything's gonna be perfect.
Like once I'm in, I'm inand everything's perfect.
And, but I think those who've beenaround the block a little bit more
know that life changes both in yourhousehold and in that experience.

(21:42):
Whether it's a new manager or just acompletely different environment that
creates a lot of pressure and makesthat second year and that third year
feel very differently from the first.
And so the 15 year career is basicallylooking at your career instead of
this 30, 40 year, however long youwant it to be, sort of marathon.
And shrinking that into a bit of a 15year sprint that's broken up into five.

(22:05):
Year, sort of increments.
The first five years with respect tomanaging your debt is really being
aggressive and doing everything thatyou can to get that under control,
keeping your cost of living as lowor as reasonably low as possible with
the primary focus of paying off thatdebt and maximizing your investing.
Your six through 10 are really aroundrecognizing that you've gone through

(22:28):
that period, and now with this extracash flow or extra cushion that you have
from paying off that debt, you can reallyramp up your investments above and beyond
the standard recommended hit to 15%.
And naturally what you find, especiallyover investing, let's say over 70 year
periods or 10 year periods, you start torealize at some point that your money is

(22:48):
earning a significantly greater amount ofmoney than it may have in the early years.
and I think that's really importantbecause by then you've worked 10
years and you're really startingto, like, you're a wiser investor.
And so.
Rather than continuing to believethat you have to stay where you are.
What we're also challenging people todo is to say, now let's start thinking
about this last leg, this last five years.

(23:10):
And this is you finding other ways toearn income separate from the way that
you're earning income now, whetherit's real estate, whether it's a side
hustle, whether it's a small business, orpartnering with someone to do something.
And what that does is it creates a bitof a third leg to your financial arsenal.
You've already paid off yourdebt, you're earning money through
your primary job, that's one.
But now you've got in income or interestgrowing in your accounts, which is to

(23:35):
now you've got the third leg, which isyour ability to earn income on your own,
doing whatever it is that you want to do.
But we wanna encourage peopleto take their time to do that.
You don't wanna just sort of quit,walk away from your job at year nine
or year 10 and think that podcasting orwoodworking is gonna be the thing that
sort of leads you to financial freedom.
Like use your brain.

(23:55):
And use your, time to youradvantage and try some things out.
Pressure test it.
Maybe it doesn't work out and you'regrateful for it so that you have some
more time to find something else.
And if you spend five years doingthat, you'll figure several things out.
And hopefully one of those things is thatyou can also earn income on your own.
And at that point, you've got15 years maybe 10 to 15 years of

(24:17):
money that has been contributedand compounding on your behalf.
You've completely paid off your debt.
You've got interest earning onyour behalf, and now you've got
this last leg and everybody's lifeis gonna be a little different.
Everybody's sort of third stool or incomegenerating activity is gonna be different.
But by then you have a securityblanket that most people would

(24:38):
just completely dream of.
And at that point you canafford to embrace risk.
And one of those things that we wouldencourage people to do for several
reasons, but just focusing on thefinancial ones, is that you can
choose to comfortably bet on yourself.
And that's what that 15year plan is really about.
Because we find so many people who reachthat 15, 20 year mark, and the only thing

(24:58):
they know how to do is what they've done.
Mm-hmm.
They've never tried to do anything else.
They've never had the courage orthey've never had the financial
support to do anything else, andthey end up living a life of regrets.
We're trying to encourage people tosort of solve for that structured in
a way, while giving them enough timeto do it with some training wheels on.
I love that.

(25:21):
And the 15 year thing, I, I kindof have a similar, what's NDI
is, I have a similar approach.
But for physicians, maybe it's alittle different because I said work
20 for the money and the rest for
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
off your debt in five, take 15years to get financially free.
And then if you wanna dothe same thing, so be it.
But you don't have to do the same
thing.

(25:41):
it.
does, as you say, allow you to launchinto exercising the creative side of
your brain, the entrepreneurial side ofyour brain, the right side of your brain,
as opposed to living in left brain.
What do you think about that, Kirsten?
That's beautiful.
Yeah, that's, exactly, that's exactly the,idea just packaged a little different.
But I think people short themselveswhen they, don't take advantage of that

(26:05):
right side of their brain later on inlife, like the only time we're really
structurally encouraged to do that iswhen we're in elementary school and
middle school and it's like, but your40-year-old brain, your 50-year-old
brain has all that wisdom, all thoseexperiences, all these stories.
You're in such a great positionto creatively add so much value to
the world, but you're stuck sendingemails And hopping on Zoom all day.

(26:29):
And this just gives you the optionif that's what you wanna do.
I'm not gonna yuck anybody'syum if that's what you wanna do.
You can continue to do that, butany moment you don't feel like doing
that or you wanna switch it up,you have this self-built safety net
that no one can take away from you.
And this confidence, because you'redoing this not just for money,
but for fulfillment and joy thatchanges the rest of your life.

(26:53):
Like to me, it's such a, a key componentto quality of life is welcoming new
experiences and getting new tastesof, capabilities and experience
in the world in a different way.
And to give that up just because, youknow, you're not in school anymore, it
just feels like such a, a miss culturally.
Can I add a couple more points to that?
Because I think there'sso many other things.

(27:15):
It's a big conversation, but there'sso much that I think gets missed in
this, like above and beyond the money.
But let's say you are followingBill's approach, right?
What I think most peopleunderestimate is that it actually
makes you a better doctor.
Because you're not just thinking aboutwhat you need to do to get the promotion.
You're not doing it for the moneyanymore, you're doing it for the love

(27:37):
of the practice or whatever it is.
If you're an accountant or a lawyer orwhatever it is, you're not there because
you're just trying to get promoted.
You're trying to makepartner or whatever it is.
You're doing it because youlove doing what you're doing.
And when you get to that point, yourentire life changes above and beyond that.
If you are in a relationship, itmakes you a better partner, right?

(27:57):
Because you don't reallyhave to bring work home.
You're not grinding nearly as much.
It makes you a better parentbecause you have much more stamina
to actually be there parenting asa full-time job in and of itself.
So it just makes you a better, morewell-rounded person aside from the
money or even sort of the creative,artistic sides of our life experience.
It just makes you a better, I think,and a more whole person, and that's the

(28:19):
real rationale for wanting to do thisor I think for deciding to make these
kinds of financial and career decisions.
I mean, it's like your regrets.
Live in your right brain.
It I just thought of that and
Mm-hmm.
if I hadn't have used my right brain tocreate this podcast with Jackie there
would be no legacy other than the day job.

(28:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I love that.
well, I, I love that you guys arenormalizing the shorter period of time,
you know, back in the day and probablywhat all of our parents told us and
what society generally told us waswhat 30 or 40 years was what it took.
And now we're talking 15 with avery easy to follow actionable

(29:04):
plan or framework in this book.
And I think even when our latestarters, they've already kind of got
some of what you were talking about.
Like, for instance, they've alreadystarted their career and I think
sometimes, let's say they're, you know,in their late thirties or early forties,
they're like, it's too late for me.
I can't do anything.
Well, think 15 years you'restill retiring early.

(29:25):
Mm-hmm.
that point.
So it doesn't, so if we can getaway from this 30 and 40 year time
horizon, maybe late starters won'tfeel so much like late starters.
So
Yeah.
was one of my big takeaways andwhat I loved about the book.
And I think a lot of our latestarters that it will resonate with
them that what they thought wassuch a longer time horizon doesn't
have to be as long as they think.

(29:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think this is wherefinancial literacy kind of.
Kind of crashes with tech literacy becauseone of the reasons for the shortened
timeline is because of all the advances intechnology and even just investing in the
ways that you can invest the frequency,the means in which you can invest, all of
that has changed in the last four decades.

(30:09):
So it might have had to be 30 to 40years when there was a time where
you needed at least $20,000 to open abrokerage account, and you had to go see
a financial advisor and deposit the checkmanually, now you can round up every
purchase you make on a regular basis and.
You're investing everysingle time you swipe.
Like those changes change the timelineand the more literate you are.

(30:31):
Like even when we talk to Gen Zor Gen Alpha, which is my son's
generation, they're like 11 right now.
15 years sounds like a long time.
Like it just sounds like whydo we need to wait 15 years?
And that's because they don'thave the same restrictions we do.
When at my age, you had to wait tillyou were 16 before you could earn money.

(30:51):
Now you can earn money atany age doing anything.
And so yeah, it's gonnacontinue to shrink.
What needs to change to accommodate itis our mindset around how long things
need to take and what is the best,highest use of our time while we're here.
Ooh, that mindset is like so, so powerfuland you guys put so much in the book

(31:13):
to kind of, deal with that and justto, to frame things differently and
think of things in a different way.
So when you guys were talking about youknow, before you leave your job, kind
of get that creative thing going on.
So for you guys, that obviously wasyour first big project, rich and
regular, the blog is still around,but you guys did some cool articles,
cool blog posts early in the day.

(31:34):
So left your jobs at different times.
Mm-hmm.
you left yours first.
I left my job in 2018.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
When did the blog start?
2017.
Okay, so you had that going and,and Kirsten was still working in
Yep.
Okay.
So how did you part from your job, Julian?
it was a pretty horrific story actually.

(31:55):
I mean, I, I didn't have plans onleaving until we'd achieved a few
more financial milestones, butat that point we'd had a paid off
mortgage on our then primary home.
And we'd picked up a rental property.
I don't believe we paid it off.
I don't think we pay that one off.
But it was, providing positivecash flow, supplemental cash flow.
But I had like, basically a reallybad situation at work where I

(32:16):
realized and I won't go through allthe details, but I just had enough.
And I said, I didn't quite have fumoney at the time, but I had, I don't
have to deal with this bleed money.
And that's what I chose to do.
Shortly thereafter, my or you know,shortly after my son was born and I was
just thinking about the kind of examplesand the kinds of stories that I wanted

(32:37):
to tell not just to myself, but to him.
And I did not want to tell this story of.
His father kind of taking mistreatmentand abuse from this place of pride.
I'd rather tell a story that yourfather made the courageous decision and
figured something out, and I was right.
Because I, I believe having seen somany of my friends and family and

(32:59):
mentors who are older struggle withtheir abilities to connect with their
children, that they underestimate whatthose kinds of moments and decisions do
in shaping how their children ultimatelydecide to behave or the decisions
that their children ultimately make.
And so I just didn't want that, thestench of trauma on me while I'm holding
and trying to connect with my son.

(33:21):
I wanted to just be freeand be a better father.
I was also mindful of the impactit had on my relationship with
Kirsten, if we're being honest.
I think we really underestimatewhat that does to our relationships
when you as a partner.
Decide that you will allow peopleto mistreat you because you need the
paycheck, and then come home to yourpartner and expect to be intimate

(33:45):
or expect to be, sort of strong.
Like, it's like, no, you've, respectfully,and I understand this could be
triggering for some people, but.
I can't believe you'veallowed that, you know?
And so why would you do that?
And it's, it's just, I didn't want it.
And my situation was pretty bad, you know?
And I think people deal with that.
It's now more common to talk about thosethings on social media, and there've
been research and all those things totalk about, specifically the experiences

(34:09):
that black people go through in thesekinds of toxic corporate environments.
To the extent now, irrespectiveof race, the Surgeon General has
actually issued a warning againstthe impact of toxic workplaces.
Like this is where we are.
And so, to go back to Kirsten's earlierpoint around our mission, around inspiring
better conversations about money.

(34:30):
Yes, these things can feel tabooor cringe, but it's very real.
These are the times in the moments thatwe're, we're in and there are financial
implications and family and relationshipand health implications for all of it.
And so that's what we wantedto bring to the table.
That's what we try to dowith the work that we do.
And yeah, that's what ultimately ledme to leave and to pour more of myself

(34:51):
into the intellectual property and theplatforms that we own as opposed to
continuing to make an employer richer.
Yeah.
Well, one of the things you guys are veryinterested in is social justice and how
social justice and money are related.
You, you say math issimple, black life isn't.
And what do you mean by that?

(35:13):
you know, I go back to that, thatinstance of those moments, if you will.
And, you know, it, it,God, 2020 was tough.
Like I think we've all collectivelyjust kind of glanced by it.
Like aside from Covid, which asidefrom Covid, like it was a global event.
Right?
But if you were once than
a generation event,

(35:33):
yeah.
But, but if you were also a personof color going through that time or
specifically a black person going throughthat time, it was really, really tough.
I mean, I remember traveling onbusiness while it was just a slew of
footage on social media and on the newsof people being shot by the police.

(35:54):
And I remember and reflectingwith my friends and all of
them just kind of acting like.
We can feel this in private,but we can't bring that to work.
We can't be ourselves at work.
You can't express yourself,you can't be human.
And I just remember being reallyconcerned about the effect that that
would have on our mental health asa, as a culture and as a community.

(36:17):
But specifically I remember being reallyconcerned about the fact that that would
have on our kids, the fact that we're justabsorbing this trauma and at pretending
like it doesn't exist every single day.
And now here we are five years after,not to pick on corporate America, but
five years after corporate Americasaying, oh, we promised, we promised
we're gonna do all of these things.
Making billions of dollars of pledges ifthey're gonna change things around and

(36:41):
them openly saying, actually nevermind,things are fine the way they were.
Things were better things that, right.
And so the way they
were is what they're saying.
Right?
And so part of what I think we aretrying to accomplish is, is unavoidable.
We don't really have the privilege ofjust being able to look at the numbers
and letting that be the decidingfactor around whether or not we decide

(37:03):
to pursue financial independence.
I think for some people it's a matterof improving your quality of life.
I think for other people, it'sa matter of long-term survival.
It's a necessity that you removeyourself from environments that.
Have historically done harm to you.
And so the motivationsare different, right?
This what we mean by black lifebeing a bit more complicated.

(37:23):
The math is the math, right?
Whatever happens in the stockmarket is gonna happen in the
stock market or real estate orwhatever financial endeavor you do.
But the motivations that lead you topursue those things and the journey
that you experience is gonna be very,very different depending on who you are.
And so we realized as people whoare pretty smart, that you can't
always appeal to the brains andthe rational side of people.

(37:45):
You have to show them the other factorsthat influence their financial lives.
And that's really what we wanted todo, not just with the book, but with
pretty much everything that we do.
Yeah.
Did you have similar experiencesto Julian that influenced you
in leaving your job as well?
No I was doing great professionally,and that was because of a lot of very

(38:06):
strategic decisions in terms of the jobsthat I took and the roles that I took on.
And while he was having a really hardtime at work, my trajectory was going up.
I was getting promoted, mysalary was still growing.
I was beloved in the organization.
Doesn't mean that those issues didnot exist, just in the very small
pocket of the org that I was in,I just didn't experience them.

(38:28):
What did lead me to eventually quit wasnoticing the distance between the two
of us, like when he quit his job andI was still working, like he had the
nerve to have a good life without me.
He was, he was enjoying the cityand finding coffee shops to work
at, and watching film and readingbooks, and when we'd come home and

(38:52):
I'd get into my normal rut about.
Somebody emailing me and CC andsomebody else and then put me on
hold and I had to do dialogue.
I, you know, I would complainabout work and he would just
remind me that it doesn't matter.
And like, why or why areyou so affected by it?
And I think this happens in a lot ofcouples who have different types of jobs
or maybe one person stays at home andthe other person has a stressful job.

(39:16):
But it just creates this tension.
We no longer had the shared experienceto build our relationship on.
And that was very, very hard for me.
For so long work had beenthe thing we met at work.
So for so long work had been thething that we talked about and that we
shared experiences and stories with.

(39:36):
And now it just felt like I wasdating a stranger and he was having
a really good time and I was not.
And that was my motivation.
to join the party, huh?
how dare you have a good day.
So what, so when did, whatyear was it when you, how,
how much later after Julian?
Left his job.

(39:56):
Did you leave your job?
So I started seriously consideringit a year after he left his job.
So mid 2019, and it took me sixmonths to decide, like six months.
Oh yeah.
I waffled back and forth becauseI also had some ego stuff that I
needed to work through at the time,I was a breadwinner and I took a lot
of pride in being the breadwinner.

(40:18):
I had earned the role that likewas at the top of my career list.
I was a director before I had turned 40.
And like I, I just had like all thisstuff wrapped up into the decision.
But by that Christmas I haddecided, like we had a wonderful
Christmas break with our son.
We had some some businessdeals that we were expecting

(40:39):
early in the next year in 2020.
And so I was like, this is it.
This is my sign.
So I went to work on February 14th.
I. 2020 and turned in mynotice Valentine's Day.
I love me more than I love my job.
Like here is my notice.
Little did I know that six weekslater the world would shut down.
Wow.

(40:59):
Like if I had known then,
yeah.
Timing
is impeccable.
Oh my.
that's, that's what happened.
I quit my, I turned in mynotice and then covid hit like
three, maybe four weeks later.
It was official, and you know,the ball was already rolling.
And at the time we thought like,oh, this is just a two week thing.
Like, yeah, it'll be, it'll be fine.

(41:20):
After two weeks, everybody stay home.
No.
Yeah.
So.
and that's part of how we know youguys, 'cause Julian spoke at economy
Mm-hmm.
It was March of 2020,
Mm-hmm.
realize Kirsten, you had just quityour job at the end of the year.
So yeah, Julian spoke we'll drop the thelink in the show notes, but he did a, an
amazing, you know, that's when you sharedsome of your shelf skills in that talk.

(41:43):
I remember.
But yeah, so we all were there.
I remember we had rehearsalthat day and we were coming in.
It was still the whispers, likeyou said, it's just two weeks.
I think somebody evensaid it was still a hoax.
Now again, this is March, 2020.
We
Yep.
different.
And I think when I came in I was like, oh,I don't, I'm a hug or, so I'm like, oh,
I don't know if you're supposed to hug.
We're supposed to elbow.
They were saying just, you know,it was, it was a crazy time.

(42:06):
You
It was,
I didn't know you guys hadall that going on at the time.
So that's interesting.
. Here's another thing I rememberabout 2020 from you guys that
Market Watch Fire Starters video.
The
yeah.
of it was, this Couple Believes FireWill Create More Black Millionaires.
And that was one of themost viewed, I think over

(42:27):
Yeah.
views, the most viewed Fire Watchersor fire Starters Market Watch video.
That was a very popular series.
Tell us about that and, andputting that together and what
message you were trying to send.
That was such a fun time.
I think that was 2020.
That was,
I don't remember
the.
I think it said 2020.

(42:47):
You know what?
You guys probably recorded it way
We probably recorded in 2019.
I don't remember.
I don't remember.
It was right around then.
It's crazy that it seems that long ago.
I'll start over though.
It was, it was it was September,2019 when we filmed it.
Okay.
I, I remember I. That, that was oneof our earlier experiences with media
because they sent out a videographer whowe've, you know, grown to love and, and

(43:12):
have connected with several times since.
But it was the first time weactually really experienced that.
I think he was with us for about twoor three days and we were dragging
him around all around the country.
He just wanted to keep on recordingand recording and it was such
an unusual experience for us.
We'd never done anything like that before,but we just decided to be ourselves.

(43:33):
And again, at that moment, there were justso many things going on through our mind.
We felt so wildly financially empowered.
We felt really inspired by the Financialindependence, retire early community.
We were flushed with cash.
We had a young kid.
We had properties.
I mean, we were justdoing really, really well.

(43:53):
And at the same time, we also knew thatunderneath it all, a lot of our friends
and our peers who were doing well, wewere really, really frustrated at work.
There were routinely passed over.
We just accepted the factthat there was this pay gap.
And we, I certainly experienced that.
I know several of our otherpeers who had experienced that.
And I think for us, and by us, I meannot just Kirsten and I, but I mean for

(44:16):
people in the city of Atlanta, whichfor most people would agree, is like the
epicenter of black wealth in the country.
If we are experiencing these kinds ofissues in our own city, it was such.
A red flag around how slipperythe corporate ladder was
for a lot of people like us.

(44:37):
And so it felt as if this wasa moment that we really needed
to pay close attention to.
And so we wanted to make sure thatwe can help people connect those dots
and let them know that they were notalone in their frustrations, and that
the pathway out may not necessarilylook the way that you think it does.
But if there's one thing we know forsure is that if you really, really focus
on your money, really get a grip onmanaging your debt and trust that the

(45:01):
stock market is going to do what it hashistorically done, you will find yourself
with a wider set of options than youwould compared to most what most people
do, which is just pour themselves intowork and then hope that they get lucky
and fortunate in getting a promotion.
Yeah, I mean, you guys, just toreiterate the five reasons to cash out.

(45:24):
five big ones and you refer to more time,as you've mentioned, to do what you love.
You have safety from constantcorporate change as we've talked about.
I just wanna iterate themso people understand why
cashing out is so important.
increased the likelihood of success onyour own terms, the entrepreneurism, the
right sided of the brain, and you createthe family, as you said that you want.

(45:46):
It improves your relationshipwith your spouse, it improves
your relationship with your kid.
You're able to coach his sports as opposedto scramble to find a way to watch them.
And then one that we've talkedabout before, freedom from burnout.
That I think is a critical one.
Can you tell us about why freedomfrom burnout is so important?

(46:06):
Yeah, I think one of the things thatpeople misunderstand about burnout is
they assume that it comes naturally justfrom working really hard at something
or spending a lot of time or a lot ofeffort on something that's not burnout,
that doesn't inherently cause burnout.
Burnout comes from spending a bunchof time on something that you don't
believe you have control over.

(46:27):
It's from spending time and energyover something that you don't think
you actually can impact the outcome.
And so when we say freedomfrom burnout, it doesn't mean
that we don't ever get tired.
It doesn't mean that we don'tever have exhausting long days.
But the difference now is thatwe are choosing the things
that are hard in our lives.
We're choosing the things that we work on.
We're choosing the places and thetimes where we wanna be exhausted

(46:48):
and we feel like we have controlover the levers in our life.
And that's the whole point, is to notfeel like there's some boogeyman, like
directing your every move, or that youneed to step out of one skin and into
another one just to earn a living.
Like you should be able to be a wholehuman as often, preferably like all
the time, but as often as you wanna be.

(47:10):
And that feeling, trying todescribe that feeling is like.
Trying to describe what salt tastes like.
Like you just know if it's notthere, you just know if it, if
it needs a little something.
And a lot, a lot of peoplefeel that right now.
And the language that we haveto describe it is so polarizing.
Like, if you say somebody's burnt out,they'll say, no, I'm not burnt out.

(47:32):
Or if you say someone needsto retire, they say No.
I don't know what I would, I,I wouldn't, I don't know what I
would do if I didn't have a job.
And there's so much in between,and that's part of the fun.
This is our right brain exercise.
It's coming up with new ways todescribe that gray area where
you do have agency and choice.
That's why we called it cashing out.
It's not a one time event.

(47:53):
You can do it as many times as you want.
Like you can go into the casino, run itup, cash out, take a break, go back in
if you want, but you don't, it's not,it's not as limited as our minds, our
language and our work culture have made usbelieve, has led, have led us to believe.
Yeah, I think.
about autonomy,
Yeah.
talking about self-determination.

(48:14):
You're talking in many waysabout entrepreneurship.
We people talk about everybodyhas a story and a book in them.
Maybe everybody has anentrepreneur in them too.
Yeah.
I, I would, I would also add to thatyou know, specific to the audience that
we were trying to speak to and reachwith that book is that I want you to
take just as much pride in rest asyou do in your work ethic or in your

(48:36):
ability to be excellent all the time.
Right.
These are parts of the culture that werecognized had a double edged sword to
it, and we were just letting people knowthat, hey, there are some consequences to
the standard that you're trying to uphold.
You know, the idea of.
You know, being tired when you recognizethat your ancestors, you know, gave

(48:57):
their lives to get you where theyare is both true and destructive.
Right?
Like, if I'm tired, I, I, I oweit to myself to acknowledge the
fact that I am tired because maybethere's something else going on here.
And so we can't always finishthose sentences with my pain, my
struggle and my fatigue pales incomparison to what the people had to
do before me to get me where I am.

(49:18):
Like sometimes you just have to have roomto feel whatever it is that you're feeling
in the moment, and then making the bestdecision based on the environment and
the options that are available to you.
Yeah, lemme just tell you, youguys' voice is so important in
the Phi Fire community because youwere doing things quite different.
So I, I love the Market Watchvideo, but it didn't stop there.

(49:41):
I love the book, but it didn't stop there.
I really love Money on the Table.
Mm-hmm.
created this mini series.
I mean, it, it shouldbe on the big screen.
And it probably was at some point, butI love that you guys were making, having
these regular money conversations somuch fun around something that Julian
loves cooking, you know, great food.

(50:02):
It was because of you, Julia, thatI know how to pr have an avocado.
Hey,
without cutting your
people dream of marrying anMBA to help of marrying a
that takes
Yeah,
package.

(50:23):
I did.
That's the intro
to the podcast episode.
Keep that part.
There you go.
I So, so Money on the table.
It was this very high qu, you know,we watch a lot of YouTube videos
and stuff, but those was, thiswas a high quality movie quality.
I don't know if it's 4K or whateverit is, quality to begin with, but also
quality in terms of the content andthe conversations that you were having.

(50:46):
And you were doing it where mostfamilies naturally come together
at the table eating meals.
That's what the whole series was about.
I'm like, this is genius.
And some of those conversations,it, it just felt like we were just
a fly on the wall just watchingwhat you guys were talking about.
And I hope that's whatyou were going for, but
Yeah,
that was such an important creation ofyour content that touched so many people.

(51:10):
So I, I don't know how, howdid that even come about,
well, it's exactly what you said.
And that was exactly the intention.
But it came about because.
We like a lot of people who in the earlystages of their financial journey, like
Go all in and you start consuming everybook, podcast, video that you can.
And we were fortunate in that we werealso able to meet some of the people

(51:33):
that we were really inspired by.
But what we noticed was the person thatwe heard on stage at Economy or at FinCon
was very different from the person thatwe met in the lobby and had a drink with
and we're big fans of Anthony Bourdain.
And we said like, that'swhat we wanna unlock.
Right?
Like, I want to unlock that.
one of the things
Real because what you did was reality tv.

(51:54):
Yes,
conversations.
These are spontaneous,
correct.
unedited, probably.
that's really, well, it's highly editedbecause I'm pretty long-winded, but
that's what we were trying to unlock.
Is that the real value of what?
You want to hear from someone comesfrom when you surprise and delight

(52:15):
them with something delicious.
And so, you know, we thoughtabout the people that we admired.
I remember asking Vicki Robbinswhat her favorite pastry was.
We met with her in New York and wewere actually having a meal with
her about politics at the time.
And I was like, this is theconversation that people want to have.
Not the one that people pointed, everyoneputs a mask on to a certain extent

(52:36):
when there's a camera in front of them,but I just realized that what they
really, really want to hear is like.
Use foul language, you know, or it'sthe, it's the 10 minutes before the
conversation with jl or it's theconversation with Paula, you know,
outside of whatever, or Mr. Money mustacheor whoever your financial hero is.
Like that's what we really, really wanted.

(52:56):
And we realized that food just had aremarkable way of bringing that out of
people and we wanted to capture that.
And so we were very muchinspired by Anthony Bourdain.
And still am till this day.
There's another series calledBreakfast, lunch, and Dinner on
Netflix by a chef called David Chang.
But also there was coffee in a carwith Jerry Seinfeld where he basically

(53:20):
comedians in a car gettingcoffee, comedians in the car,
getting coffee, is what it's calledwith Seinfeld, where he basically.
Interviews all of his comedian friendsin a car that was inspired by them.
So an Eddie Murphy car isgonna be different from,
let's say, a Dana Carvey car.
I'm just making it up.
But that's what we were reallyinspired by and what we tried to

(53:40):
recreate with money on the table.
And we were really justshocked that nobody owned it.
And so we also locked upthat intellectual car.
Yeah, you guys are geniuses.
So I have a question for you guys.
Do you have any tips for my co-host here?
Because his kids called him lecture daddy.
Is there any other good ways for, forhim to have money conversations with?
So his kids he has twinsand they are what, 26?

(54:04):
Bill?
Right.
Just about.
26. So how does he shakeoff the lecture daddy title?
I don't think you can.
That's
pretty,
that's actually great.
That's,
it's, it's pretty hopeless.
You know, I have, I have to wait forthem to come to me with their questions.
But along those lines, whatwe were mindful of, right?
Because in the very early stagesof our entrepreneurial careers, we

(54:27):
thought we could outsmart our audience.
And we realized actually thatthey're really smart people.
You know what I mean?
And so for every argument that youmake around why they should pursue
financial independence, they'regonna come up with some kind of
argument that's really strong.
And we realized that and this hasbeen a bit of our mantra, is to aim
for the heart instead of the head.
And that tends to be a far greaterway to influence people's behaviors.

(54:51):
And so that would be my adviceto you, bill, is to aim for the
heart, find the thing that inspiresthem, find the thing that really,
really, you know, scares them.
That more often than showing themmore numbers or trying to combat their
point of view with, math, I thinktends to be the thing that sticks
and then ultimately leads to themfinding their own pathway to change.

(55:13):
Yep, I agree and thanks for the advice.
I really appreciate it because.
sorry.
Is
thought of myself before, butit's parenting and evolution,
Yeah,
and waiting for the student to comeand trying to instill not necessarily
numbers, but the simple messages.
Save first spend
exactly.
max out your 401k.
It doesn't take many tips

(55:35):
It doesn't, yep.
so one of the topics that youhad talk since we're on the topic
of parents was when you you guyswere talking to Julian's mother
Mm.
the table and you had the discussion aboutyour guys are the sandwich generation.
I think that was one of your most popularepisodes, but I love that episode as well.

(55:55):
To have your mom there and you somewhatsupport her, and that's another thing
that a lot of our late starters deal with.
So I wonder if you could talkabout that just a little bit.
you want me to, or I guess I could.
Yeah, so.
You know, we, we do andwe still support my mom.
That experience has, has gone up and downsince we shot that particular episode.

(56:17):
But you know, the reason why we wantedto cover that topic is because we also
realized that that was actually one of thereasons, one of the primary reasons why
a lot of the people that we were tryingto reach, chose to hang on to their jobs
is because it wasn't just about them.
Like they really, really wereafraid to step out on their own.
Even though they had the resources,they had the capabilities, it was that

(56:39):
they were not just like fit, that likethe risk of failure was significantly
higher for them because they werealso financially supporting a parent.
In some cases, multipleparents, and in some cases
those parents had special needs.
And so it was that suffocating fear thatwe really wanted to show people was a
way to, combat some of the issues and thechallenges that they were dealing with.

(57:02):
But yeah, it's very prevalent.
I imagine it's more prevalent now thanit was when we initially approached that
topic of conversation in that episode.
I believe that was seasontwo of Money on the Table.
But I don't think it changes anything.
If anything, it to me just makes it a bitmore urgent with respect to why people
should be investing more aggressively andwhy they should be looking for ways to

(57:25):
earn income outside of their day jobs.
Because the labor market and the jobmarket is really, really tough these days.
And so while people can argue all daythat entrepreneurship isn't easy, you
know, you certainly have a lot moreflexibility than you do with the job.
And so , we were just trying to help leadpeople to their own conclusion there.
But it's one of those things wherethere really isn't an easy answer.

(57:48):
Kirsten haven't you had issues with yourside with the sandwich generation and
things you've had to deal with as well?
Not the same kind.
My parents don't rely on us orneed us for financial support.
They do need a lot ofjust hands-on family time.
You know, they, they both retiredin the last seven or eight years.
My dad had cancer for a little whileand is thankfully in remission right

(58:12):
now, but it's still something that, youknow, we, we look to all the time and.
It still requires a, adifferent muscle, right?
It's not money, but it still requirestime, patience, resourcefulness, the
willingness to get on the phone tohelp them sort through all of the
things that you have to sort through.
My dad is a tinkerer.

(58:33):
He loves tech.
And even when he realized how muchwas involved in just navigating
retirement, whether it's socialsecurity or Medicare or taxes, or
he's got a little side hustle, he'sgot all kinds of things happening.
He started building this app thatwould just serve as like a resource
guide for his family members.

(58:53):
And even he just putting it on paperwas just like, there's no, like, I mean,
obviously we know there are books outthere and, and resources because of the
personal finance community, but it'snot like you get a pamphlet on the last
day of work that says, here's how youstructure your life now that you don't
have coworkers or an HR departmentwho does all of this stuff for you.

(59:14):
It's a lot to maintain, and especially forpeople who didn't necessarily grow up with
computers or in this digital environment,there's a lot that you have to keep up
with and, and there's a lot of adjustmentsthat they need to make in order to do
things simply like going to the doctor'soffice and checking in on an iPad.
And so they require support just becausethey're older but not necessarily

(59:37):
from a financial perspective.
Okay.
great.
You create your own HR departmentand you help people exit the building
Yeah.
have an HR department.
Your dad's a genius aswell, just like you guys.
Oh,
And, and Kirsten, I'm so glad tohear that your dad is doing better.
So I was, kind of asking also from alens of, I just found out my daughter's
pregnant, so I'm gonna be a grandmother.

(59:58):
oh my God.
Yay.
Congratulations.
I, I wouldn't have been able to tellyou guys that last month, but now
she's over the first trimester and it
Yes.
full on now, but she'll be kindof in the middle as I'm getting,
I mean, for a while she don't haveto worry about me, but as time goes
on, you know, she will be an adult.
She'll be in her thirties orforties and she'll have, you know,

(01:00:19):
a teenager and then she'll have me.
And I just, I don't know, I just alwayswondered kind of how that plays out
because it could get tricky, like yousaid, it's a very unique , two different
dynamics that you gotta deal with.
Mm-hmm.
so, Bo is he appreciatinghaving his, grandparents around?
Oh, yeah.
I mean, it's, it's, it's one ofthe things that makes him such a

(01:00:39):
special kid is that he has all ofthese multi-generational friendships.
Right.
He doesn't even have like a grandson,grandparent relationship with our parents.
Like they're his homies.
Like they're, they're,they're good friends.
Yeah.
So I look for, I'll look forward to that.
I'm like, I, I feel like, I mean,I'm sure I was excited when I was

(01:01:01):
pregnant with my daughter way backin the day, but I am just so excited
to have this grand baby and we
live pretty close.
so I'm looking forward to it.
Anytime I meet an older person who is,just not wa aiming wanderly, but just
like, just got a little lost, like justlooking for something, I always tell
them to find a young person, whetherit's a, you know, 7-year-old or a

(01:01:25):
teenager, because there's so much wisdomthat these kids are missing because
the gap between generations is so wide.
And one of the reasons Bo is such anenjoyable kid, like whenever teachers
ask like, how is he so gentle?
How is he so calm?
He's such a good listener.
And it's like, well, his bestfriends are like 78 and 77.
You ain't got a choice but to be agreat listener because, you know, his

(01:01:47):
grandparents talk at a different pace.
They tell a story in a different way.
They take the scenic route andhe has developed a liking for it.
Like he has a tolerance for it.
It's not all screen and mm-hmm.
You know, quick cuts and changing thevideo when you don't like it anymore.
And so it's just, I hope that youget to spend as much time with your
grandbaby as you want, because I amtelling you that that perspective

(01:02:11):
is so important and so missing inour young people, and they need it.
They need it to adjust their timelines,their expectations, everything.
yeah.
you're talking about is what you talkabout in your book too, community
and multi-generational community,
Mm-hmm.
you say, come for the content,but stay for the community

(01:02:31):
it.
and that's what we're all about.
That's what we find.
You know, you're notalone in your journey.
You need to embrace the factthat you can't do it alone.
Right?
Yes.
That's it.
Yeah.
And, and you guys know we area podcast about Late Starters.
You did a whole episode on lateStarters that I really love.
And Julie, you were saying youwere at some event and you had a,

(01:02:53):
a, an individual, I think it wasa lady that stood up and said,
what if it's too late for me?
Kind of flippantly.
So I'd love to hear thatexchange, and I think our audience
might get value from it too.
Oh Lord Jackie, setting me up.
I
know.
Give them the, give themthe Spencer version.
Yeah.
So you know, I, I, I still have alittle bit of spice in me and so, you

(01:03:16):
know, as someone who's very passionateabout the work that they do, and,
you know, I make deliberate decisionsaround how I wanna spend my time.
We were asked to do a speaking engagement.
I think, Jackie, you were a partof this speaking engagement or
this sort of series as well.
And so it was here in the city of Atlantaand I remember having this conversation
and we opened it up for q and a andthere was a, a woman who stood up.

(01:03:36):
And the reason why I made thequick decision to be a bit more
aggressive than I normally do wasbecause I could read in her tone.
That she was annoyed a little bit mm-hmm.
By what I was suggesting, which was, youjust have to make these tough decisions.
And it was around paying off herdebt and, and investing and all the
things that we normally talk about.
And she was like, well, what ifyou, what if you just don't do it?

(01:03:59):
Or some, something like, like that.
Right?
Is that what it it was something like,what if, what if you just don't do it?
Or I asked the question like,what do you think happens?
Or something like that.
And I said damn, I forgot what I said.
What did I say?
She, she asked the question,is it too late for me?
Oh, is it too late for me?
I've heard y all, everythingy'all said, it sounds good.
All these people around me are excitedabout it and ready to use the knowledge.

(01:04:21):
But she told us her age and she said, Ijust, I, are you sure it's not too late
for me, or I think it's too late for me?
And I said, well, what if I said it's,what if I told you that it was right?
And the point that I was makingwas we find that some people.
Just refuse to take accountability overtheir own finances, their own decisions.

(01:04:42):
They wanna put that on somebody else.
And so since we were presenting ourselvesas the e experts of the day, she wanted
to put that pressure on me to determinewhether or not it was too late for her.
And I understood where she was comingfrom, but the bigger point that I
wanted to make to her is that it'sup to you and dare I suggest that
part of the problem is that youcontinue to avoid this accountability.

(01:05:04):
Like this decision is ultimately yours.
I can give you my advice, I canquote all kinds of studies, but if
I've been talking for 45 minutesor an hour, however long it is.
About and being pretty clearon what our point of view is.
I think in, for you to ask thatquestion, the way that she did was
to me a greater reflection thatshe just had in some ways given up.
And I didn't want herto give up on herself.

(01:05:26):
I was like, that decisionis ultimately yours.
Don't give that decision to me.
Don't give that decision to anyone else.
No one should care moreabout your money than you.
And so, yeah, that was the exchange.
And you know, I hope shemade the right decision.
Yeah.
no, no one's coming to save us.
Not one person.
No one, no one.
the only one that can saveyou is you and your community.

(01:05:46):
'cause you can't do italone either, as we said.
Mm-hmm.
that's what I realized isno one's come to save me.
I gotta take care of myself.
I've gotta, you know, convertfrom being a spender to a saver.
And that's not easy.
That's really hard to do.
Yeah, but that was some serious foodfor thought and I hope that all of our
audience, the one thing that they've doneright they're listening to a podcast, many

(01:06:08):
of them had, joined our Facebook group.
If you haven't joinedyet, come on in there.
We are having these conversationsand people are not perfect.
they're talking about the grittytruth, the things that they've done
wrong, they're shame, there's regret,there's all these things, but you've
said, I wanna do something different.
And
Mm-hmm.
that this lady in the audience didn'tsay, she didn't say she not at that

(01:06:30):
point, but I'm sure she probablythought a little more deeply about it.
And maybe that was something thatshe kind of needed to get her
wheels turning in another direction.
So, you know, good on you.
We get that all the time.
So hopefully she at least tried tothink about doing something different.
So Kirsten, so I'm back to you.

(01:06:51):
So you mentioned some unconventionaltips about investing as you get older.
And it wasn't just about the portfoliothat I really loved, and I think our
audience will get value from kindof how you were thinking about this
whole investment as you get older.
It didn't have any, and I don'tknow if, well, it wasn't in the book

(01:07:11):
Bill, so Bill may not even know, butit wasn't just about the numbers,
the dollars and the cents and evenwhat the star market going down.
It didn't even matter.
But it was back to communitythat Bill was mentioning
Oh yeah.
and, and I never heard anyonelike think of it in those terms.
The people around you.
The people that can support you.

(01:07:33):
Like there's value to that, that Ithink some of us take for granted.
Yes, I remember now.
Because I, I also wrote about this on,on LinkedIn, but yeah, I was talking
about investing in your community andfocusing on being a better neighbor.
I. A lot of us are in this place whereyou don't know your neighbor's names.
And I don't just literally mean next door,but like you should have five people's

(01:07:56):
phone numbers who live within a fivemile, five to 10 mile radius or minutes.
I don't know if you're in a city or ina suburban area, y'all know what I mean?
But someone in close vicinity toyou, you should have their numbers.
You should be a regular at arestaurant or a dry cleaners or a park.
You just wanna be known in your communityso that when something happens, not if,

(01:08:19):
but when you have this local safety net,this local community that can help you.
And you never know howpeople can help you.
Like the, we've been more civic-mindedthe last couple of years than we
ever have in our entire lives, andthat's largely because of our son and
the fact that he's in public school.
And public schools need a lotof hands-on support, whether

(01:08:40):
you have a student there or not.
He's in little league.
We're volunteering a lot of ourtime and the ways that we've been
able to help people are thingsthat I would've never thought.
It's the simple things.
It's like giving someone a shovel orbringing in, you know, antifreeze or like
with

(01:09:00):
helping with technology.
I mean, it's
little bitty stuff,
Shout out to your, one of your favoritecharities because during Covid you
donated to an organization a cooler.
You bought two and it was about community.
It was about neighborhood, and yourealized that there was somebody
out there that was feeding thepeople that needed it most.
I believe the charitywas called Umi Feeds.

(01:09:23):
Yes.
Yeah.
U-M-I-F-E-E-D s.org.
We always like to give a shout outto our charity, and thank you for
giving me the perfect opportunityto give a shout out to yours.
Yes.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah, I mean, you know, for as muchwork as we do and as as you all do
in the personal finance space, oneof the things that we just did not
see enough of was giving, right?

(01:09:45):
Like there are those of us who aredoing well and there are some of us
who are doing incredibly well and thereare tons of highlight reel on social
media, but there just simply was notenough examples of people giving.
And so instead of a promotion and settingout something, being on sale, we wanted
to say, Hey, we're giving something away.
Giving something away.
And we wanted our community to helpus to point us in the right direction.

(01:10:07):
So we're glad they helped usfind Umi Feed and she's continued
to do really great work.
Yeah.
Jackie, we have covered so manywonderful things here today.
Yes.
conversation could go on forever with you.
A good thing we know these guys andwe could sit down at the table, break
bread as we did at FinCon and haveongoing chats with them because there

(01:10:28):
is so much value here for our audience.
I've really enjoyed the conversation.
Jackie, do you have any final thoughts?
wanna know, I know you guysare always up to something.
So what have you got going on right nowthat you wanna share with our audience?
Of course they can get the book, they cango to the YouTube channel, money on the
Table, and they can go to the podcast.
But what else are youguys working on right now?

(01:10:49):
This has been the year wherewe're focused on family.
And so our creative projects, as muchas we love them, we just completed
one that we're really proud of calledTaste the Impact, which is focused on
values aligned investing, and viewingthat through the lens of food, which
is, you know, normally what we do.
So we just wrapped that a up and nowwe are getting prepared for summer with

(01:11:09):
our son and just making sure that hehas a great foundation as he starts the
next phase of his life as an 8-year-old.
And so most of our stuff has just beenfocused around family and continuing to
advance the conversation around money sothat people have something else to talk
about besides just how much money theyhave and how much money they're spending.

(01:11:31):
Well, that's the other great thingabout this is this is collaboration.
We just had Janine on the show.
Oh, wonderful.
She, her episode will air before yours,and that's perfect because Janine FERPA
wrote the book, activate Your Money.
My sister's reading it,she's taking action on it.
And you'll have heardabout that before this.
So go back to that episode andlisten to it so that you know,

(01:11:53):
how can you what was it called?
Impact?
So it's a mini documentary.
It's less than 20 minutes long.
It's called Taste the Impact.
Yeah, we'll
Well look for that.
in the show
Look for that coming out.
God, this, this has been great.
Julian, Kirsten, thank youso much for joining us today.
Thank you for giving of your hearts, yourminds, and your souls to our audience.

(01:12:15):
We really, really appreciate it.
Thank you guys.
week on Catching Up to Five.
Thank you guys.
You guys are awesome.

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