Mini Retirements, Sabbaticals, Career Breaks- Yes Please! | Jillian Johnsrud | 153 - Catching Up to FI: Financial Independence for Late Starters

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
I always say there's, kind of threeways you can get a mini retirement.
You can negotiate time off from youremployer, you can take one in between
jobs or something unexpected might happen.
And if you have a mini retirementgo-bag planned, like if you've set
aside some money, if you have acouple plans, you can maybe quickly

(00:22):
pivot and take that opportunity.
And that's what my first one was.
It was one of those unplannedkind of mini retirement go-bags.
And my best friend at the time,we loaded up into my green Honda
Civic and did a month long roadtrip DC to Seattle and back.
before you could work for one companyfor 30 or 40 years and live a really

(00:45):
comfortable life and have a reallycomfortable retirement, and that's
less true in today's economy formost young people, especially in
their twenties and thirties, but evenforties, switching careers, switching
jobs, employers is your best chanceat getting a significant raise.
It's really tough to get a 10 or 20%raise staying at your current employer.

(01:09):
So building many retirements in everythree or four years and planning to
take a month or three months off inbetween jobs can actually massively
increase your lifetime earning potential.
we're looking at a dramatic changein work culture in our country.
And it's gonna start from a grassrootsstandpoint, as you say, where individuals

(01:29):
come to their companies and showthe companies that it's possible.
Other work culture things wecould do is like the four day work
week, take a Wednesday off, takea Friday off a three day weekend.
And it doesn't necessarily hamperproductivity according to the studies.
And it's not work more, create more,it's work more efficiently and relax

(01:50):
more efficiently too and more thoroughly.
We aren't used to this in creatinggoals for a new retirement.

(02:28):
Hello and welcome backto Catching Up to Fi.
As always, I'm Bill Yount withmy co-host Jackie Cummings-Kosky.
And today we have a repeatguest, Jillian Johnsrud.
And before we get started, I wantto give a shout out to her favorite
charity of which she's a board member.
So it's called The Hope Effect.
And Jillian, before we get intoyour intro, can you tell us a
little bit about The Hope Effect?

(02:49):
Yeah, so their mission is really to,transform orphan care around the world.
In a lot of, especiallydeveloping countries, they
still use an orphanage system.
And research science has shown thatkids do best growing up in families
growing up in a home environment.
Creates massively betteroutcomes for them as adults.

(03:13):
And so that's kind of The Hope Effectsmission, is to work alongside the local
governments to create this entirelynew infrastructure to where kids can
grow up in homes instead of orphanages.
Well, that's important to you, I guess,because you have adopted kids as well
in your large family of five kids, andwe'll probably talk about that a little

(03:34):
bit with regards to mini retirements.
Jackie, how are you doing today?
I am doing great.
So excited to have Jillian here.
We connected five years ago whenwe both were speakers at the
inaugural economy in Cincinnati.
So that's our bond.
And you met her thereas well, Bill, right?
That's correct, and I'll tell you allabout it because Jillian Johnsrud never

(03:55):
expected to be able to retire early.
So she hatched a plan to retireoften, and that's cool because it's
really not a part of our culture.
Inspired by the idea of sabbatical years,she set out to sprinkle retirements
throughout her and Adam's working lives.
At 40, they've taken overa dozen mini retirements.
These allowed them to pursue dreams likeliving abroad, traveling to 27 countries.

(04:19):
Oh my God.
Adopting four kids, plus two biologicalkids, investing in real estate and touring
the US in a camper with these five kids.
Jillian has taught, coached,and wrote about mini
retirements for almost a decade.
She is an expert.
She hosts the Retire Often Podcast,and is a popular speaker and

(04:40):
consultant for many retirements.
She lives in Montana where she spends timein the garden drinking tea, and I believe
she created this garden during one of hermany retirements that we'll hear about.
I first met Jillian at FinCon years ago.
She is tall, statuesque, and unmistakable.
She claims to be an introvert, I think,but I experienced her as a gregarious,

(05:02):
outgoing, caring, and empathic person.
She had granola bars and throatlozenges for all that forgot to
eat or lost their voice at FinCon.
She has chatted with us beforeon episode 43, Retire Often.
She now has a new book coming outon September 9th of this year.

Retire Often (05:19):
How Anyone Can Take Multiple Career Breaks To Unlock Adventure, Advance
Their Career, and Find Financial Freedom.
So Jillian, welcome backto Catching Up to Fi.
Thank you so much for having me.
I am so glad to have you today 'causehonestly, you're introducing new
language to me with the many retirements.

(05:41):
So start us off by tellingus what a mini retirement is.
So I define mini retirements byhaving three characteristics.
The first one is thatit's a month or longer.
I find the month is kind ofthe minimum effective dose.
The second one, you're steppingaway from your primary career.
So not necessarily doing nothing butnot doing what you normally do to

(06:04):
make money, getting a break from that.
And the third is to focus onsomething that's meaningful to you.
And if you hit all three of those, Ithink that's a great mini retirement.
Well, I love that.
As I think about like certain timesin my life that absolutely could
have been something I would'vegotten a lot of value from, but I
just never knew that that existed.
So, you obviously stumbled uponthis through your own experiences.

(06:28):
I find it kind of difficult or I've alwayshad it in my head, the difficult to do
with kids and a big family, but you did.
Tell us about your family makeup andI guess the first time you encountered
this opportunity to do a mini retirement.
So my family makeup at the moment meand my ex, we have five kiddos at home.

(06:49):
I think they're nine through 17 now.
I first kind of stumbled upon this theidea the very first year that my ex and I
were married, I was 19 and I came acrossthis idea and it just, I don't know,
every once in a while you hear somethingthat like instantly resonates with you.
It was instantly exciting andintriguing and just, it felt like it

(07:09):
was filled with possibility of whatif we could step away from our career?
'cause I had all of these young andfull of enthusiasm and optimism.
I had all these goals and these dreams,but we weren't going into high earning
careers and we had a lot of debt.
My first massively ambitiousgoal for financial independence
was by the time I was 60.

(07:31):
That was like, oh mygosh, if we could do that.
And that felt like sooutlandish and unrealistic.
But that was kind of the firstbenchmark I was hoping to hit.
So these mini retirements werereally an opportunity to pursue those
other things that I was interestedin during my working career.
I always say there's, kind of threeways you can get a mini retirement.

(07:51):
You can negotiate time off from youremployer, you can take one in between
jobs or something unexpected might happen.
And if you have a mini retirementgo-bag planned, like if you've set
aside some money, if you have acouple plans, you can maybe quickly
pivot and take that opportunity.
And that's what my first one was.

(08:11):
It was one of those unplannedkind of mini retirement go-bags.
And my best friend at the time,we loaded up into my green Honda
Civic and did a month long roadtrip DC to Seattle and back.
And like we slept on friends' couches.
We camped, we had our tentcollapsed in the snow.
We almost got trampled by bison.

(08:32):
Like it was an amazingtrip for my twenties.
But that was the first one.
Well, what's interesting to me aboutthis is our work culture does not
incorporate this, especially in America.
Are we looking at the death ofthe traditional career path?
We have these 50 weeks of work, twoweeks of vacation in federal holidays.

(08:54):
Other countries, other cultures havea really different approach to this.
Why do we have this work tillwe die kind of mentality?
And how do we create this both froma systemic way and a personal way?
Yeah, I think a number of thingshave shifted in the economy and the
work culture that makes that oldmodel not work as well as it used to.

(09:19):
Because before you could work for onecompany for 30 or 40 years and live
a really comfortable life and havea really comfortable retirement, and
that's less true in today's economyfor most young people, especially in
their twenties and thirties, but evenforties, switching careers, switching
jobs, employers is your best chanceat getting a significant raise.

(09:43):
It's really tough to get a 10 or 20%raise staying at your current employer.
So building many retirements in everythree or four years and planning to
take a month or three months off inbetween jobs can actually massively
increase your lifetime earning potential.
But another shift that I think peopledon't realize, but I've felt a lot being a

(10:04):
teenager in the nineties, my parents camehome from work and they were just home.
It was done.
There was no email.
There was no internet.
No one called.
They didn't bring home papers.
There was no expectation ofworking on their days off.
When we went on vacation, no onecalled, no one emailed like when
you were off of work, you reallycould disconnect and be present.

(10:27):
That is massively eroded over timeto where work feels ever present.
And the only way to get that same kindof disconnection that we had in the
eighties and nineties is to reallystep away and create that boundary.
I think you make such a good point there.
'cause I remember when I retireand my scope of awareness was
just either work or retire, right?

(10:49):
So when I was ready to retire,a lot of other people in my
group, they were actually goingto other jobs, to your point.
Nobody works 40 years, you workthree or four years and if you want
the big raises, you gotta go toanother job, that's today's reality.
And if I would've taken thatseriously, that would've been a
great time for me to take a miniretirement and then continue on.

(11:10):
Maybe I would've retireda little bit later.
But the way the working world istoday, it's much more feasible
than what it used to be.
But I'm curious about.
I feel like this might'vebeen my issue too.
I'm thinking about the moneypart, whether it was real or not.
So how do people balance feelingstressed because they're taking time

(11:32):
off and they're spending money andnot making money, versus giving their
self the grace to refocus or to takethat time off as a mini retirement?
I think it's a challenge whetheryou're taking a mini retirement
or you're fully retiring.
You're gonna be earning less moneyand perhaps spending more money.
And I always tell people like, if you'rescared to do that for a month, why do

(11:55):
you think 30 years is gonna be less scary
Like, if you're scared to go for a walkfor half an hour from your house, what
do you think a marathon's gonna be?
So mini retirements kind ofgive us a little taste of like
dealing with some of that fear,dealing with some of that doubt.
Figuring out my finances workand I can budget and I can figure

(12:16):
this out when I'm not working.
And it gives us the practice so thatwhen we go into full retirement, we
have a couple reps under our belt,like we've worked out some of the
kinks and we know how good it can be,and we have the motivation to not get
stuck in the one more year syndrome.
That comes up a lot.
I think I had the one more year syndrome.
I have the three more years syndrome.

(12:37):
And it is difficult for me to dothis, and we'll get into that.
I'm just gonna remind folks thatoutside of the US, the European Union
mandates four weeks of paid time off.
In Germany, they have somethingcalled a core where insurance pays
for you to go on a health retreat.
We don't build these things in.
Are there some companies in the corporateworld or otherwise that really build

(12:59):
this into their model so that theycan say, prevent burnout among their
employees and have good retention?
Yeah, hundreds of them.
Like if you do a Google search,it's becoming more and more popular.
I would say that the downside Istill see in a lot of sabbatical
programs is that it's after sevenyears, or five years or three years.

(13:21):
From where I'm sitting, I don'tthink the frequency is quite optimal
yet, but it's a good starting point.
And it can have so many benefits forcompany but also for the employees.
In the book, I have a very short littlechapter on this crazy idea of like,
what if every company or what if acompany mandated every single employee

(13:41):
take a month off every single year?
Very practically, what would thatlook like in terms of employment,
in terms of performance, interms of retention, productivity?
What if we reimagined how ourworking lives could look and
what work life balance could be.
And hopefully I make a compellingenough case that more companies

(14:03):
will see this is actually a smallcost for an enormous upside.
Yeah, it's like building a little bitof redundancy into the workplace so
that you're not so crucial to a taskand somebody can step into your role and
you can free your mind of that and knowthat the work is still getting done.
You talk about three steps withregards to a mini retirement

(14:27):
and three sections of your book.
And the first one is designing it.
The first question you ask is,what do people use them for?
I love mini retirements because they'rekind of like a Swiss Army knife.
Like they're a tool withmany different functions.
And so I always encourage people to thinkabout like, what feels really urgent right

(14:47):
now and what feels really important, kindof where does that Venn diagram crossover?
I would say typically right now,especially in the US burnout, I
just saw a new study by Forbes thatsaid 66% of Americans are burnt out.
And it's like, it's massiveand it's widespread.
And honestly, in our economy, in our workculture, we don't have a solution for it.

(15:10):
We don't have a, oh,here's how you fix this.
It's such a tricky, well, not tricky.
It's tricky to do whenyou're in the environment.
I kind of compare it to like, ifyour house has mold, can you recover
from that while still living there?
Maybe like you could open somewindows, improve ventilation, but
it's probably easier if you leave fora while, get some fresh air and then

(15:31):
come back and deal with the task.
So burnout's huge and there's alot of things that like simply
don't fit into nights and weekends.
If you wanna hike the Camino, you'renot doing that over a four day weekend.
If you want to do a road trip withyour kids to 10 national parks,
that's not a four day weekend.
If you want to do some of thesebigger goals, bigger dreams,

(15:52):
you just need more time.
So I think that's anotherreally frequent motivation.
Those big goals, those time withthe people we love, we care about.
And I almost think about like acapital investment, like in a business.
You make a big financial orinfrastructure investment upfront
and then that continues to pay youdividends for years down the road.

(16:15):
But we can do the same for ourselves.
We can make a capital investment inour relationships, in our health, in
our mental health, in our hobbies,that we can continue to reap the
benefits of that for decades to come.
I definitely love that language.
I just thought a lotabout this over the years.
It's like, why isn'tretirement in the middle?
But in your case, there's a lot of littlemiddles, right, with the mini retirement.

(16:38):
And I'm just glad that we are nowusing this language that we don't
have to run the marathon withoutmaking some stops for our own good,
our own health, like you were saying.
And I'm even thinking for somepeople, they may even be doing
a career change and then they'retaking a little time off in between.
I guess there's so many options toconsider that it can help you, not feel

(17:01):
like you need to retire from something.
You're building whatyou actually love to do.
Now we're looking at a dramaticchange in work culture in our country.
And it's gonna start from a grassrootsstandpoint, as you say, where individuals
come to their companies and showthe companies that it's possible.
Other work culture things wecould do is like the four day work
week, take a Wednesday off, takea Friday off a three day weekend.

(17:24):
And it doesn't necessarily hamperproductivity according to the studies.
And it's not work more, create more,it's work more efficiently and relax
more efficiently too and more thoroughly.
We aren't used to this in creatinggoals for a new retirement.
I get lost, there's no structure.
How am I gonna not hangaround and watch Netflix?

(17:47):
And you talk about three thingsto help narrow your focus.
There can be a tendency towant do 87 different things.
And the reason I called the bookRetire Often instead of do one massive
epic mini retirement in the middleof your career is that you don't have
to do everything in this first one.

(18:08):
Make it a plan, buildit in to retire often.
So each mini retirement canbe unique and can be focused
and serve specific purposes.
So I try to encourage people to pickat most three things, like three main
goals, three main intentions, andthen to set it up kind of in phases.

(18:29):
Don't even try to do all three atthe same moment in the same day.
'cause sometimes those three canbe counterproductive to each other.
Someone said, I really wannarecover from burnout, I wanna do
like a massive trip through Europeand want to start a business.
It's really tough to do all threeof those things on the same day.
But if you took a monthto recover from burnout.

(18:49):
And then you traveled for two months inEurope, and then you came home and focused
on your business, having that focus andintention for each goal individually, it
makes it much more satisfying, much lessstressful, and a lot more productive.
I always end up gettingback to the money stuff.
I guess I kind of wanna remove that asa roadblock for a lot of people because

(19:09):
they do tend to wanna anchor to the money.
What are some of the practical things?
Everything from talking to your boss,stepping away from the job, to building
up your budget and building things up towhere you can walk away in peace and know
that you've properly planned for this?
So a couple things on the budget side.
I encourage people to at most keepwhatever their additional spending

(19:35):
for their mini retirement to be at 50%of that take home pay for the month.
So if you bring 5,000 home a monthspend more than an additional 2,500.
And if you're kind of, especiallyfor your audience, if you're a little
bit in the more beginning side ofyour financial journey or towards
the middle, think through all ofthe things on your bucket list.

(19:55):
What are the things that require ahigh degree of capability, physical,
mental capability, and are low costand front load those high capability
ones while you're able to do 'emand front load the low cost ones.
That sequence of returns makes a massivedifference in your financial trajectory.

(20:16):
So start with the mini retirement, like Itook a month off last year to learn tango.
One month I gave myself a $1,000budget and I had an amazing time.
And now like I'm absolutelyobsessed with Tango.
I love it so much.
So I have this hobby capital investmentthat I can do until I'm 80, but front
load those ones, like the aroundthe world cruise, that's $45,000?

(20:39):
Save that for when you're 80.
80 year olds love to go on cruisesand you might have enough cash
when you're 80 to afford that.
So thinking through which ones are themost affordable and starting there,
they don't have to be expensive.
I think there's this incorrect assumptionthat if I'm gonna take a mini retirement
is tens of thousands of dollars.
It can be a thousanddollars, it can be $5,000.

(21:03):
And if you are kind of starting lateand you're looking at, I might be
working till 60, 65, 75, it gives youthe opportunity to do the things that
you're capable of doing now that youmight not be capable of doing at 75.
Like I met a couple, we were on a 10 weekroad trip, and it was towards the end, and

(21:26):
I met them, I think in Oregon, Washington.
They were just starting to hike thePacific Crest Trail and they were in
their early sixties and they were like,yep, we took six months off of work.
We have to do it now.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
Like, how's it going?
Like, this is so exciting.
And they're like, honestly,we don't know if we can do it.
Like, it's a very difficult through hike.
But they said.
If we wait five or six moreyears until we're retired,

(21:49):
we're not gonna be more capable.
We don't have a better chance of beingable to finish this hike in six years.
Like we either give it our bestnow or just kind of admit that
like we missed the boat on it.
I completely resonate with that.
I was recently out west with myson and his girlfriend and my wife,
and one of my dream bucket listwas to go to Zion National Park.

(22:11):
And one of my dreams was to get most ofthe way up the Angel Trail, so to speak.
One of these iconic hikes inlife with Walter's Wiggles
leading you up to the base of it.
I was sitting there putting one footin front of the other, with a Kaizen
principle of 1% better as we go along.
I can get fitter, but I'm here nowand I think I have the capability

(22:34):
now if I just put one foot in frontof the other to get to the precipice
of the bright Angel or whateverAngel Trail it is, Angel's Landing.
And I did it with my son.
My wife decided not to go all theway up, but I may never be back.
This was my chance.
As you say, this was my season of life.
I may not be back.
I may not be able to do it again.

(22:55):
And now I can say yes, I gotto the mountaintop right.
Yeah.
And that's gotta be one of the biggestreasons, the fact that we are not able
to do certain things when we are in ourseventies and eighties that we can do now.
And I think a big answer to thatis what about mini retirements?

(23:15):
When someone has a job, what are sometips on how they can possibly get some
kind of agreement with their boss?
That's only one scenario, youtalked about a couple more,
but let's start with that one.
The only industry I had ever known thatdid sabbaticals was like university
professors and in the education system.
So a lot of people, thismight be kind of new to them.

(23:38):
'cause I've worked with one-on-oneclients group coaching, a lot of
people are very skeptical of theirability to negotiate this time
off because almost no one does it.
They've never done it, like theirfriends and family haven't done it.
So they don't really see how it'spossible or necessarily have kind
of the formula to give them thebest chance for a good outcome.

(23:59):
I always encourage people, one,start with like a short time period.
A month is great.
Six weeks is great, up to three months.
Partly because from an HR standpoint, mostcompanies are set up for people to have
up to three months of unpaid leave off.
So they kind of like, with insuranceand benefits, like on the back end,
they know the logistics of that.

(24:20):
If you want six months off or 12 monthsoff, I would probably consider separating
and then maybe getting rehired by thecompany later is probably your best bet.
So first pick that time periodand then crafting the story of
how are you gonna pitch this?
What's the narrative because you wantto set the tone of this and there's kind

(24:40):
of four elements when people are puttingthis story together that I encourage
to incorporate as many as possible.
The first one to make it positive,even if it's a challenging thing
that you're dealing with, findthe positive outlook in it.
The second is to picksomething that's interesting.
The third, pick something that's specificand I'll get into more detail, that one.

(25:03):
And then fourth, find somethingthat's ideally a one time thing.
So it's one thing to say, oh,like I kind of burned out.
I need to like go and rest and maybeI'll feel better and come back to work.
Not super positive, interesting, specific,or necessarily even a one time thing.
But, 'cause we talkedabout like the Camino.
If you said, hey, I've always had thisdream, I've wanted to do this hike.

(25:26):
I'm getting a little older.
I feel like, my 45th birthday's coming up,like, now's the perfect time to do this.
My mom is still young enoughto do this hike with me.
So I need six weeks off to do a little bitof training and four weeks for the hike.
Here's what we're gonna do, and then I'mgonna come back and it's gonna be amazing.
That tends to be a one-time thing.
People don't hike the Camino every year.

(25:46):
It's very specific.
You're doing a specific hike versussaying, yeah, I think I wanna like get
in shape, or I wanna exercise more.
I wanna have somequality time with my mom.
Like, those are cool, but not specific.
So adding that specificity and thenjust finding something that's positive
and interesting and compelling, thatkind of resonates with another person.
So coming up with that story,but then your job as an employer.

(26:08):
'cause don't put this on your employer.
Don't just be like, here's a newproblem you have to solve because their
plate is full, they're busy, like theydon't have time for extra problems.
Do as much of the kind ofmental and emotional labor of
anticipating how is this gonna work?
What are the logistics?
What are the challenges?
And bring a plan to them that makesyou taking this time off the easiest,

(26:33):
cheapest, simplest solution, especiallyif you're willing to leave, if you are
willing to have that leverage of leaving.
'cause now they're choosingbetween two different problems.
The problem that you've madevery easy, cheap and simple.
Or the difficult problem of replacing you.
Now, are there any stories justto give our audience a specific

(26:54):
idea of negotiations that youparticipated in that were successful
and illustrate the possibility here?
Yeah, I would say it's at leastlike in my one-on-one work, I would
say about 70 - 80% of the time.
To include people that are like,absolutely not in my company.
Never.
Like, my company's not set up for that.
I work in a government job or Iwork in this corporation, or like

(27:18):
I work in this kind of systemand like nobody can get time off.
A funny one for, and this is, maybethis isn't the greatest example 'cause
it's just what I said not to do, butsomeone went in who was a physician.
I was like, listen, I'mmassively burned out.
I need a year off.
Like I have, I'm sorry, I have to leave.
And they were like, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

(27:39):
How about you take the yearoff, will you just come back?
Will you come back like,please, like after you're
done, like, will you come back?
And so it was cool for her 'causeit kind of guaranteed her job, which
can be a little bit stressful, butshe got it exactly what she wanted.
I had another client, and this was funny.
It ended up being a miniretirement negotiation.
But I always encourage, even ifyou're planning to leave the company,

(27:59):
to do an exit negotiation, tonegotiate things on your way out.
So she had told me up front,there's absolutely no way they
will give me a mini retirement.
Like I've taken like three maternityleaves over the last three years.
They're super put out with me,like they're not feeling generous.
And I was like, okay, that's fine.
So we negotiated her exit.

(28:19):
And I said, okay, this is cool.
But, when you negotiate thisexit I also want you to ask
for a raise, like a 20% raise.
And she was like, wait, what?
Like, I am like, on the day I'mquitting, I'm also asking for a raise.
And I'm like, yep, yep, yep.
Okay.
Here's how we're gonna do this.
So she said, I'm willing to stay.

(28:39):
Here's what she was willing to offer.
I'm willing to stay for four months.
I'm willing to find a replacement,willing to get through this busy season,
and then the magic words in return.
I would appreciate to be fairlycompensated for my remaining time here.
Here's the market rate for my job.
How does this sound?
And they were like, yes,absolutely, yes, absolutely.

(29:00):
Let's do this.
But in the book, I encourage peoplelike, once you're the exception to like
one rule, sometimes it's much easierto be the exception to other rules.
So her employer knew that she hadall these plans over the summer,
and as they got closer to that fourmonths, they were like, okay, I
know you have all these plans, butlike what you came back in the fall?

(29:22):
Would you come back?
And she was so smart and soclever, she was like, I would
consider that I'm probably gonnaneed every summer off though.
I love it.
what's interesting here is it costsa lot of money to hire a new employee
and to retain a new employee.
It's a lot of effort,time, and money to do so.
And that's some of yourleverage to do this.

(29:44):
I don't wanna leave, leave, leave.
And you don't necessarilyhave to hire somebody else.
This is my plan for covering my positionwhile I'm gone, and then I'll hit the
ground running when I come back, right?
Yep.
Absolutely.
Your mini retirement is the easiest,cheapest, simplest solution because at
the end of the day, HR bosses, they'rejust people, and people like to do

(30:06):
the easiest, cheapest, simplest thingwhen they have one of two choices.
Yeah.
I think doing a little bit ofhomework goes a long way, so
I love that scenario there.
Was that with one of yourclients or, that's pretty good.
That was awesome.
I love that.
So obviously not everyone is at a jobwhere it's even negotiable if you're
doing blue collar work or they're, yeah.
Bill's raising his hand.

(30:26):
He's one of those.
So the other circumstance thatyou talk about a lot when mini
retirements come up is in between jobs.
So take us through that and give us sometips on how to maneuver that situation.
So, like I described, I would, ifpossible, I would do an exit negotiation.
And so even if you're like, Iwill get nothing, for context,

(30:51):
I've seen people get raises.
I've seen people be able to work fromhome more during the last month or
two or four months, or six months.
Sometimes people give a long notice.
I've seen people get likea four day work week.
I've seen them get fullyvested ahead of schedule.
I've seen their bonuses get paid out.
Like there's a number of differentthings that come behind that.

(31:11):
In return, you're gonna do all thesethings you would appreciate maybe
a couple of these other things.
So definitely do an exit negotiation, butI would also start networking right away.
And that's as simple as, heyeveryone, maybe this is an email,
maybe this is on LinkedIn, whereverI'm off to do this cool adventure.
I love this industry.
I've loved our professional connection.

(31:31):
I'm really excited to come back.
I'll be back probably in six to 12 months.
If you happen to hear of anything.
In the meantime, if it's like aperfect fit, feel free to reach out.
I'm always happy to entertain those ideas.
And just putting it out there kind ofin the universe, because especially in
countries that have like a strong workculture, there's a little bit of obsession
with other people being employed.

(31:53):
Like, just you being unemployed and outthere hiking through Southeast Asia or at
a yoga retreat or like building a Habitatfor Humanity house or like whatever you're
doing creates a little bit of discontent,a little bit of irritation for everyone
and they just wanna fix this problem.
Like they just wannaget you back employed.
So that can help people getreally interesting, great job

(32:17):
offers while they're unemployed.
And for a lot of people I've workedwith, and my ex experienced this as
well, they might never get recruitedwhile they're at their employer.
And then soon as they're unemployed,everyone's outta the woodwork of like,
oh, our company, we're hiring this,or have you considered this place?
So take advantage of that.
Those four points that we made forcrafting that story, you're also gonna

(32:41):
wanna craft that story for when youinterview with potential employers.
Here was the thing I did thatwas positive, interesting,
specific, and a one-time event.
Here's how it was awesome.
Super excited to be back into my career.
Yeah, I think my mini retirementis four years, four or five years
or however long it's been so far.
But yes, it's been very interesting, and Ican't see myself going back to a full-time

(33:04):
role, but if I did, I do have that story.
And some of the things that I'vedone that hopefully helped develop
me even better for this role.
So I actually have a friendthat's done that right now.
So left a company.
I'm not sure about the separationcircumstances, but he did post on LinkedIn
and he said what he did and everything.

(33:25):
And of course I was amazed at howmany shares he got from his friends.
Like, it's in technology,so I have no idea.
And I said, this is the besttechnology director you can ever have.
And, and it's been going really great.
But that's a really good one.
I think he has some mental blockswith taking a mini retirement.
So I'm taking a lot of this for food forthought, and I'll be sure to share it

(33:45):
with him to try to enjoy this transition.
So would it be similar Jillian,if someone got laid off.
I'm thinking a lot about the federalgovernment workers, where so many
of them recently has been laid offwith very little notice and it's just
a shaky time right now and there'slayoffs happening all the time.

(34:07):
So when there's a layoff,is there anything different
people should think about?
Yes.
That's why I talk about like, that's thethird option, like something unexpected
happens and usually bad, unexpected andhaving that mini retirement go bag, which
is essentially having some cash set asidedoesn't have to be a tremendous amount.
Like I said, these don'thave to be super expensive.
But also having some plans, having donethe mental emotional, like logistical

(34:31):
work of, honestly, even if peoplehad like, what are four ideas that
would take four weeks that you coulddo at different parts of the year?
So if it's like I would buya ski pass and ski every day.
Okay, that's cool if like, you get laidoff in the winter, but what if it's July?
So having a few different ones thatcould fit different scenarios because
when you deal with that surprising,usually unpleasant thing, it's

(34:53):
really tough to emotionally pivot.
It's really tough to go from Iam angry and scared and confused
frustrated and overwhelmed tolike, Hey, epic vacation mode.
Like, now I get to do thisthing I always wanted to do.
So the more prepared that you are,the quicker people can make kind of
that emotional pivot and really leaninto the opportunity, which is why

(35:16):
like that third definition of a miniretirement is to focus on something that
is meaningful and that matters to you.
' cause it's real easy to sit around andeat junk food and watch Netflix and
be grumpy about this time off and it'djust be kind of a miserable month off.
And I feel like, especially withmodern hiring practices, it can be a
process, like you might do three orfour rounds of interviews, like even

(35:40):
from the time you apply to a job to thetime you start a job could be a month.
If you get the veryfirst job you apply for.
So you might have four weeks, eightweeks, even if you're actively pursuing
employment, that you're gonna beunemployed and you might as well do
something awesome during that time.
Yeah, it's interesting to me because thereshould be a chapter of many retirements
in every personal finance book.

(36:01):
Honestly, it's not there.
It's not pervasive, it's notpart of the American mindset.
And break it down into these steps.
And one of the bigbarriers is the finances.
And if you pre-plan this, likeyou have a sinking fund bucket
for travel and vacations.
But those are short term things.
What about the mini retirement bucket?
And you talk about a 6.5% rule.

(36:23):
Can you tell me about that?
So this is the idea of what ifa person decided to truly retire
often, and they said, you know what?
Every other year, I'mgonna take a month off.
And we go by this rule of youneed to cover your whole living
expense plus that extra 50% forwhatever cool thing you're gonna do.
How much do you have to save?
it's six and a half percentadditional to be able to take a

(36:44):
month off every other year throughoutyour entire working career.
And in the book I highlight like coolthings that you could do in a month,
whether that's going to Mexico to learnSpanish or doing a big road trip, or
learning how to cook pasta in Italy.
Like there's all these amazing thingsthat you could accomplish in a month off.
And so for a lot of people, an extra6.5% isn't a tremendous amount of money.

(37:08):
'cause this is proportionalto your income.
So if you're bringing home$10,000 a month, that's 650 bucks.
If you're bringing home $5,000 amonth, it's a couple hundred dollars.
And it's not delayed enjoymentfor like a long period of time.
It's not like skip Chipotlelunch every Friday and in 40
years, like you can go to Mexico.

(37:29):
Skip the bad tacos now becausenext year you're gonna be in Mexico
eating street tacos on the beach.
You're just pushing that joy and thatmeaningful experience until next year.
One of the hacks you talk about is rentingout your own home while you're on a mini
retirement to cover at least those costs,especially if you have a mortgage, even
some of the costs of the mini retirement.

(37:51):
And for people that have rental realestate, they just gotta funnel that
cash flow into their mini retirement,plus the savings they might have, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
This 6.5% is honestlylike worst case scenario.
That's like the absolute most youwould have to save because there's
so many different levers that youcan pull to make it more affordable
to increase your cash flow.
And yeah, even if you don't haverentals, just renting out your place

(38:14):
while you're gone, for some people,that covers a huge portion of their
mini retirement in and of itself orit reduces their expenses massively,
so they have a lot less money to save.
And for the bigger mini retirements,sometimes people don't factor in how
much more affordable the mini retirementmight be than their everyday life.

(38:35):
I interviewed on my podcast a couple.
They lived in the Boston area.
They had two kids in daycare.
So they spent like 40grand a year on daycare.
They moved to France fora year and spent 40 grand.
Just their daycare cost coveredevery living expense that
they had in France for a year.
That additional 50% wasn'tat all true for them.

(38:56):
They weren't spending 120 or$150,000 a year in France.
They were spending like less thanhalf of what they spent at home.
Another barrier that people talkabout is kids, how do you manage that?
How do you manage education?
Now, you've done this a lot.
How did you manage those problems?
Kids can be a barrier, maybe lessso under the high school ages with

(39:16):
homeschooling and all those otherthings out there, world schooling.
But high school probablyis a different animal.
Is there any other hacks that youcan think of that would encourage
people to say, yes, I can do this too?
Honestly, I think the biggesthack is start with a month because
everything in life that we've neverdone is hard the first time and we're
not awesome at it the first time.
And it's a little uncomfortableor scary the first time.

(39:39):
So start with something that'ssmall and affordable and manageable.
You can negotiate it off.
It's not gonna be massively expensivebecause then you develop that confidence
and that clarity and you get throughthe learning curve a little bit
and then you can scale it up andgo a little bit bigger next time.
But as far as schooling, so whenwith kids, honestly, I think two
to 12 is kind of the magic agefor long-term traveling with kids.

(40:02):
Not that it's perfect,there's no perfect age.
I've traveled my kids at everysingle age, like zero to 20.
So there's no perfect age, but theschooling aspect is super easy.
When we traveled, we did tons ofmuseums and zoos and historic sites
and all these educational things.
Then we just threw in like some mathproblems and reading and writing

(40:22):
and was pretty easy to navigate.
But it's also an age where like they'resuper excited to spend time with you
and they are having so much fun with thethings that you're doing and everything
feels magical and cool and awesome.
Junior high, the credits, the school sideisn't as difficult, but it's a gamble.
It's a gamble with how excitedthey are to spend time with you.

(40:44):
They started to get a little hormonal.
It's a gamble of how muchthey're gonna miss their friends.
How much are they gonnamiss their extracurricular?
Like how good of a mood arethey gonna be on any given day?
I've got two kids in junior highand I never know who is walking
through my door after school.
Sometimes delightful angels,sometimes grumpy, little demons.
it might be awesome.
Your 12-year-old might love traveling withyou, or they might have some big feelings

(41:06):
that come out in inopportune times.
But leaning into that season and I liketraveling with my high school kids.
I like traveling with my junior high kids.
When they're adults, I'llenjoy traveling with them too.
But take advantage of every seasonyou have with your kids and lean
into that as fully as you can.
Same with your siblings,same with your parents.

(41:27):
I'm 42, my mom's 60.
We have this amazing windowfor like the next 10 years.
And then don't know, like maybeshe'll be in even better shape and
even better health when she's 70versus when she's 60, you start to
kind of roll the dice on that stuff.
I wouldn't call it a mini retirement, butwe had a sudden healthcare emergency in
the family, and my wife had to go care forher mother who had a healthcare emergency.

(41:50):
And given the structure of herjob, she was able to have a go
bag and go up there and do that.
It was only two weeks, but it could havebeen a month til things had been resolved.
And there's gonna beorganizing the affairs of your
parents when they pass away.
There are going to be these knownopportunities and the unknown,
unexpected opportunities whereyou have to pre-plan for that.

(42:11):
Your financial go-bag,your physical go-bag.
It may not be that you're gonnafocus on yourself or a project, heck,
your own education, for example.
I can think of an example where youtake three months and you tell your
work, I'm gonna do this certificatebecause I'm excited about the education.
You are gonna pay for it,and then I come back to work.
Yep.
Yep.

(42:31):
think the whole kid thing I.do think about all those years
when my daughter was younger.
Those are some amazing times.
And if I had any regrets in life, itwould be that I wish I didn't have
to work so much when she was younger'cause those were some amazing times.
Now she's an adult.
She has her own life and things likethat, so she's not quite the same.
But that is yet another reasonto really think about these many

(42:54):
retirements, and it's like gettingsmall wins, instead of waiting for
the big pot of gold at the end.
What about these nice littlegold coins along the way?
It is just a better way to look at it.
A lot of young people that I talkedto, and I felt this way too, when I was
saving for retirement, it didn't evenseem like my money because I wasn't gonna
get the reward for so long, for decades.

(43:16):
And if I would've thought, hey,maybe after five or 10 years I can
take a career transition or , I canspend extra time in between jobs and
actually take time off or whatever.
Whether I initiate thator if it happens to me.
And just to frame it, you have oneof the kindest, friendliest voices,

(43:37):
so I can imagine you with yourclients helping them talk through
it and just talking through it.
It's almost like there's an answerto every question and it is doable.
Looking at it far away, it seemslike, oh my God, I can never do that.
And you have talked through so manythings that are like, well, here's
how you can work through that.
A great therapist.

(43:57):
Like you've got that calming voice.
I love it.
I guess another sort of logistical thing,and I guess broadly, what are the booby
traps that people need to look out for orthings that they to make sure is not in
their blind spot as they plan for this?

(44:20):
One of the first things that cameto mind was health insurance,
but I know that there are others.
But let's start with health insuranceand tell us about anything else that you
want to be sure to look out for as youare planning your first mini retirement.
Health insurance is an interestingone in the US 'cause it creates so
much anxiety, so much uncertainty.

(44:40):
There's so many emotions aroundit that, when I talk to people
from other countries, theyhave a much more neutral view.
They're like, oh yeah, no, I do this andfill out that form, and then I pay this
amount of money and it's just like anotherbill or another form that they deal with.
We have all of thesebig feelings about it.
so I always encourage people inthe book, I outlined like, here's
like nine different options.
There are options out there.

(45:02):
and what people really need to do is justtake the hour, two hours, three hours
investigate exactly what your options are.
Because most of that fear andinsecurity comes from not really
understanding what the optionsare or how much that's gonna cost.
And I also find in the US, it feelsreally bad to pay for healthcare.
Like it feels like the worst bill.

(45:24):
And so when people are taking miniretirements, I encourage 'em like it's
just a bill, like every other bill.
It's not an emotionallyloaded amount of money.
It's just an amount of money.
So if you're gonna take three months off,and let's say you're gonna do COBRA, and
your full COBRA payment is a thousanddollars a month, and you're used to
only paying 300, but now you're gonna bepaying a thousand, you're paying $3,000.

(45:47):
It's $3,000.
Your plane tickets might be $3,000.
Your lodging might be $3,000.
Like other parts of this are alsogonna cost money, and this is just
another cost is $3,000 for healthcareworth this epic thing that you have
planned when you're 60, 70, 80.
Will you be mad that you spentthat 3000 on healthcare or will

(46:07):
you be like, it was just money.
Like, it was just likemy car payments money.
Just like my house payments money.
It was just money that I spent.
So there's, there has to be alittle bit of mindset work around
paying money for healthcare.
But it's funny, the whole fourth stepin the book is navigating the journey
and kind of all the ways it goeswrong and all the ways it goes, right?

(46:28):
And when people come to me with theirconcerns about mini retirements, it's
healthcare, employment, and money.
Those are the thingsthey're nervous about.
And I don't know if I just have like abiased group of people I work with, that's
never actually the stuff that goes wrong.
Like those are always like thesimplest things to figure out those
that always go pretty darn smooth.

(46:48):
It's everything else that goes wrongthat they're not expecting and creates
unnecessary emotional suffering.
Emotional suffering that justdoesn't have to be there.
One of 'em that's really common is ifpeople are burned out, they have an
idea of what recovering for burnout willlook like and how long it will take.
And it is not what they think it willbe because they've never done it before.

(47:10):
Like they dunno what it's like.
so it takes longer than they thinkit will take, or it feels more
intense than they think it will feel.
They think recovering from burnout'sgonna like, feel awesome and fun and like
they're just gonna do yoga every day.
And for some people, if they'redeeply burned out, feels like they're
recovering from the flu or it feelslike they're recovering from surgery.

(47:32):
It's this intense tiredness, it'sthis intense decrease in motivation,
this intense sleeping more.
And people start to internalize, actuallymaybe this means something about me.
Maybe this means that I'm lazy orI'm undisciplined, or I'm unmotivated
or I can't structure my life.
Maybe this means like I can'tfunction outside of a job.

(47:54):
Maybe I'm only productiveand happy if I'm working.
Maybe like all of my servesof purpose is in my work.
And they start creating this like,unhinged narrative, and I'm just
like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
If you were recovering from the fluand you were tired, you wouldn't be
like, maybe I'm a horrible person.
You would be like, or maybe I'mjust recovering from the flu.
And once I get better, Iwill feel like myself again.

(48:14):
So I always encourage people likethat little bit of mindset work
of if you get into this and you'relike, wow, I'm way more tired.
Don't create this unhinged story abouthow you were an awful human being.
Just go, huh, looks like I'mmore tired than I expected.
Good thing I'm on a mini retirement.
Gonna take a nap.
Like it doesn't have to be a huge ordeal.
I'd never heard this word before.

(48:36):
I think you created of "un-rushing",and life is a hedonic treadmill.
It's rush, rush, rush.
It's the rat race, and then you have toinvert that and talk about un-rushing.
Can you describe that and theconstruct of what it means to un-rush?
Yes.
If people have been in a busy,intense season, we survive that.
We thrive in that by rushing.

(48:57):
We rush through breakfast, we rush gettingready, we rush out the door, we rush
to drop the kids off, we rush to get towork, we rush through lunch, we rush home.
And that's how we fit this unreasonableamount of things into our day.
It's by rushing through.
And it keeps our cortisol high andour adrenaline and like it gets us
through this fatigue that we feel.
So we don't feel the fatigue,but it kind of becomes a pattern.

(49:19):
And it can be tough tolike shift gears real fast.
And, so I encourage people to practiceas leading up to your mini retirement.
Take one activity that youdo that you normally rush
through, maybe it's breakfast.
And do it slowly.
Do it restfully, do it peacefullyTake deep breaths while you're doing
it, and sometimes people will evenstill find themselves trying to speed

(49:42):
up, trying to hurry through it, butcatch yourself and be like, no, no,
no, I'm gonna un-rush this and I'mgonna do this with like, calmness and
gratitude and full breaths of air.
And you start to learnhow to slow a little bit.
that can be scary when you're in asituation where you have to rush because
if you slow down, you might drown.

(50:03):
And your subconscious knows that ifI slow down, this avalanche is gonna
catch up to me and it's gonna crush me.
So you just run, run,run as fast as you can.
But, on your mini retirement, oneof the ways to recover from burnout
is to just practice this un rushing.
Practice slowing down your dailytasks to where they feel peaceful.
Well, Jillian, you have walked us throughthis whole mini retirement concept.

(50:27):
You've introduced us to some new languageand really some important way to reframe
and rethink about our whole career span.
And I appreciate that.
And like you said, today's technologyand the way the workforce is today is
conducive to being able to do this.
And almost every issue or booby trap hasan answer as long as you plan it out.

(50:51):
So I'd like to know some of yourfunnest many retirements, and then
I'd love to hear more about thebook and all the particulars with
that and where people can find you.
So what were some of your favorites?
This is so hard 'cause Ireally love all of 'em.
Like, 'Cause they were all so different.
They were all so specific.
You know, I did 10 weeks through 10national parks with my kiddos when

(51:13):
they were little in a pop-up camper.
And it was like such aspecific beautiful moment.
'cause like I never get to do that again.
Like there's no way I can wrangle allthese teenagers and junior high-ers in a
popup camper with no wifi for 10 weeks.
Like the season has passed.
But even that, when I talked aboutthe beginning with my best friend,
cross country road trip, like thatwas an amazing trip when I was 24.

(51:35):
I don't sleep on the frozenground anymore, like that
season of life has passed.
So I'm so glad that I leaned in and didthat and had that experience ' cause it
was amazing and I never wanna do it again.
So all of 'em, I really loved thislast one with Tango, it was really
exciting and really fun, and this isan exercise that I put in the book, I
think it's really good for everyone.

(51:55):
I think about the 80-year-oldversion of myself a lot.
What does she want?
What advice would she have for me?
What does her perspectiveon this situation?
And she was thrilled about the tango.
She's like, I want the physical stamina.
I want the strength.
I want the agility.
I want the mental stimulation.
I want the friends, Iwant the social life.
I want the activities.
Like, I want all of thosethings that Tango can bring.

(52:18):
A one month investment.
Perfect.
But, I think especially in youraudience, well, if I do this mini
retirement, would I retire later?
Like, would it postpone?
I'm already not gonna beable to retire till I'm 69.
Would this push me till 70?
Will I have to work a wholenother year if I take three,
three month mini retirements?
I always think about, okay, so you haveto retire a year later and you're 70.

(52:38):
Think about that 70-year-oldversion of yourself.
And if you went to him or her andsaid, okay, so you, you ended up
working another year, but in exchangewhen your kids were in high school or
when they were young adults, you wentto Italy with them for three months
and you guys toured all of Italy.
then when your parents were stillalive and around and healthy, you

(53:00):
went hiking through Ireland with them.
And before your spouse passed away,you guys did that trip to Mexico
that you've always been dreaming of.
So you got those three months experiencesand we worked an extra year, or
none of those are accessible to you.
Now all of those seasons passed you by,but you got another year of, hanging
out around your house at 69, which wouldfeel more exciting or valuable, which

(53:25):
would you appreciate for decades to come?
It's like reverse engineering your life.
It's being prospectiveinstead of reactive.
It's thinking about your ideal day,your ideal week, your ideal month.
Your ideal three months, your ideal year.
We don't think ahead.
We're just trying to survive the oneday, and this is an intentional life.
I see a huge niche for you.

(53:47):
It's one-to-one with your coaching.
It's one to many with a coaching group.
It's one to corporate Americawhere you talk to HR and educate
them about the value, just likeautomatic enrollment in a 401k.
What about automatic enrollment intheir retire mini retirement program?

(54:07):
I think you need to get outthere and help change corporate
America and the culture of work.
So I see a lot of work for you ahead.
I'm very excited about your book and asJackie mentioned, how can we reach you so
we can get coaching, so we can talk aboutthis more so we can network with you.
Yeah, retireoften.com.

(54:27):
You can find the book there to pre-order.
I've got a workbook groupcoaching one-on-one.
The podcast at Free Worksheets,like everything kind of
lives at retireoften.com.
And then on social media,I'm at Jillian Johnsrud.
I'm not on there as much, andmy newsletter is kind of random
and unexpected and weird.
So if you like random stuff to showup at super random intervals and

(54:50):
your email news box my newslettersgonna be a perfect fit for you.
Oh, I subscribe and Ilove the random thoughts.
They're very inspiring and actuallyit may be the best way that a
mindset newsletter is approached.
Jackie, do you have any finalthoughts on today's conversation?
I'm so pumped.
yeah, I am too.

(55:10):
Jillian, you are theperfect person for this.
Let me just say that, and I havepre-ordered my copy of the book,
Bill, have you pre-ordered your copy?
I was fortunate to get a PDFcopy but I can order one.
I also listened to the audio book,so yes, I'm gonna get out there
and write a review so more peopleget a chance to find this book.
Yes.
And I have pre-ordered a copy because Ijust have to have it sitting in my office.

(55:34):
It's a beautiful book with a beautifulmessage told by a beautiful person.
We so appreciate you joiningus today, Jillian, and we
hope that you will come back.
When is the launch datefor the book again?
September 9th.
Okay, we wish you all the best on thisbook, and I think that this is going to
be very important to a lot of people.

(55:54):
Awesome.
Thank you guys so much.
All right, Jillian, it'snice to talk to you again.
I hope to see you in person again soon.
Thank you for joining us today andgiving us your insights on life.
We'll see you next weekon Catching Up To Fi

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