A Body of Work: The Matt Jordan Episode

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
What are you going to do to separate yourself? What are you going to do so that you can look
at your work and be like, yeah, that's fucking, I love that. You know, cause when
I make my tattoos, I'm not making them to try and impress people.
I'm making something that I believe is important for me.
And I know that it's good, you know, and the narrative there, there's
heaps of like little hidden bits and pieces that I

(00:20):
never fucking, nobody's going to fucking know. Like, and I don't care, like,
cause I'm doing it for me, you know, like, and, and
that was a huge point, you know, like, and realizing that, and
I think if more people can realize that, like this is our renaissance, you

(00:54):
Hello, friends and all you lovers of art,
tattoo, things made by hand. That's
a big one, I think, for me lately, is this. This
whole techno revolution is expanding
and descending upon us. I just
appreciate what I do with my hands now. I just think that's the

(01:16):
coolest thing. It's becoming so much more rare. And definitely, tattooers,
we are analog as it gets, including blood
and other liquids and everything else we deal with. So it's very analog
art, made by hand, custom for each person, and I'm proud to be a part of
it. The guy I have on today is
a absolutely phenomenal tattoo artist. You

(01:39):
guys, if you're out there, just go to his Instagram and
follow along. You have to see this man's work. It blows
my mind and anyone else I've shared it with. I've been following him for a
long time. We've never had the chance to meet or really get to know each other this
well, but we're gonna do that today. You know, how do I describe his
work? I don't know. I'm gonna throw some words out there. It's definitely black

(02:00):
and gray. It's got a lot of realism to it, but it's also illustrative.
It's not exact photo realism. There's his ability
as an illustrator to work stuff in there. It's got a post renaissance vibe
to it. It's kind of narrative-driven with
a lot of human figures involved in the pieces, but each
piece tells a story, and how he's able to

(02:22):
create these pieces is his own unique thing. I'm gonna have him explain that
to you, but definitely check it out. You're gonna be blown away.
But with all that being said, let's just kick this thing off. Everyone, please welcome
You're welcome. Thanks for being here. It's 8am in New Zealand right

(02:43):
now for Matt. And it's, I don't know, one in the afternoon on
Thursday, and it's one in the afternoon on a Wednesday for me.
So I'm glad we caught you at a reasonable hour. We're
going to get into this the stuff you're up to, which this, this project
you're working on is, is absolutely insane. But before
we get to that, let's, uh, I like to always hear a little bit about your

(03:04):
life and how you found tattoo or tattoo found you to
Okay. I'll try to give you the short vision,
but, uh, uh, a long, long time ago, um,
I was born, um, in Sydney, Australia, actually,
my parents were from New Zealand. and they

(03:25):
moved to Australia to open a
tattoo studio. My dad was a professional tattoo
artist in Christchurch, New Zealand, and
then he, yeah, found his way over to Oz
and I was born there, yeah, and that's

(03:46):
it, man, I was born into that world, you know, so it just kind
of, it just so happened that way, you know, and
then Growing up sort
of in that world, I guess, is just what made me fall in love
with it, you know? I only lived
in Australia for a couple of years, so I have no real memory of

(04:08):
it, you know? I think it was free when we came back. I have little
kind of foggy memories of different tattoo studios, but the
one that I really remember was Skin Show
Tattoos in Christchurch, which is
my dad's studio. he had with another guy, John Sparks, back
in the day in Christchurch when they moved

(04:28):
back to New Zealand. So yeah, that's my
beginning in tattooing, I guess, is just hanging out at that shop on
the weekend. You know,
I was so young. I have, like I said, these
vague memories of, you know, Sporting and Rogers stuff turning up
and they would stick on tattoos in the order, you know, like

(04:49):
I remember the flash, I remember people coming in and joking around
and I remember the bikes out the front and, you know, like all
that stuff, you know, it was like a fine line, you
know, kind of street shop, you know, like back,
you know, in the I guess that would have been the
very early 90s, you know, was

(05:11):
that sort of that era, you know, and dad being like an 80s
tattooer, you know, even back to the I
don't know when he started, what year he started, but, you know, he was
in that sort of, you know, biker fine line kind of circa, you
know, of artists, you know. So, yeah, it was
just cool as shit. And I fucking just drew and

(05:33):
loved it and was surrounded by it. Mum covered in
tattoos, you know, and, you know, just it
That's rad. Um, I'm a little, I'm a little jealous
just to, just to be kind of, you know, born into it like you were,
but it's probably has its own pitfalls too. I mean, I'm assuming your

(05:55):
No. Um, he actually passed away shortly after that. Um,
when I was about six, I think, um, he was
35 or 36 years old and he, um, he
got bowel cancer and passed away. Um, so. Unfortunately,
I had it ripped away from me, you know, um, that, um,

(06:17):
that really kind of separated me from tattooing completely. Um,
I still like drew all the time and we had family
friends with a studio and they would give us flash as kids. And,
you know, we would, you know, trace and color in this, this, you
know, kind of like a 90s spec flash. And that was,
you know, super cool memories that, um, unfortunately with dad

(06:39):
passing away, it just, um, you know, we just didn't have any
real tie to the industry anymore.
So no, that was kind of it. And then it went away and I just had
a, you know, a different life because
of that. But inevitably that was what made
Well, then how did it, it went away. How did it come

(07:04):
Well, like, you know, I, I, you know, obviously, always
drew, you know, and I was never, I was never like some prodigy child
or great drawer. I just doodled and did these kind of, you know,
drawings of cars or whatever, you know, like that I was into at
the time. And, and, um, I just went through life,
you know, I sucked at school and I was, you know, all

(07:26):
of the, the things, you know, dyslexic and, you know, speech
impediment and, and, you know, you know, the teachers thought I was a dud.
So I, you know, I just drew in the back of the class or whatever, you know,
and then, I left school and did some farming
and just odd jobs. I had some incredible
memories from that, because it was really fucking hard work. And

(07:49):
I learned so much in that
sort of world. I left home when
I was about 14 or just 15, maybe, to
work full time. And I did that for a
few years. And then I guess through
that in my spare time, I would still draw. Still

(08:10):
sucked, but I did it because I loved it, you know?
And then I
guess from there, there came a point where I had this
really cool job and I had this awesome boss. His name's Brendan. I'm still
really good friends with him and he taught me so much and it was incredible working
with him. But after I left him, I kind of had a bunch of jobs

(08:33):
that I hated. And, and I just got to a
point where I was just like, fuck, you know, I'm just going to fucking have, I'm
just going to do it. I'm just going to be a tattooist, you know? And so
I approached some old family friends and John Sparks and stuff. And,
um, I was like, I want a tattoo. And then they,
through this kind of group of people, they got me the equipment and I just started tattooing

(08:54):
in my bedroom and, um, I just fucking
did it, you know? And I, and I sucked at it and, but
I persevered and, I had a lot of good friends
that were willing to let me practice on them, luckily. And
that was the beginning. And I was just all in, because
I'd always really wanted to do it,

(09:22):
Yeah, so I was 18 when I started. Oh
You were 18, you're 39 now. You were 18 when you, when
I'm like a, you know, degenerate drinker,
drug taken kind of yahooing teenager. And,

(09:45):
um, yeah, I just fucking just started
tattooing and, you know, I, I sucked man.
Like, but you know, like, I was passionate, and my friends could
see that, and they were just like, fuck yeah, it was cool as hell, you know, like, we
got you. So I just, you know, like I just practiced on myself, practiced
on them. And then I got to a point, I

(10:06):
guess, where my work was getting a bit tidier, and it
still sucked, but like, I was, you know, I wasn't giving up.
I tried to go into tattoo shops, and they'd be like, nah, you know, fuck off, like,
you know, I'd take my shitty portfolio, and then, you know, what,
you know, Some people would just tell you to, you know, fuck right
off. And there was a few people that were kind of supportive, like for

(10:27):
sure, like Matt Parkins and Christchurch and a
few other people that were like, hey, this one's pretty good, you know, keep
going, you know. And so, and that was, that was really encouraging. And
then eventually I just hung around at the studio called
Tattoos Down Under or Down Under Tattoo, Steve Johnson. He's

(10:48):
like triple OG. worked with like Dutchman
and Kerry Barber and all those cats, you know. He was the first
sort of Kiwi artist to really hit the world and go
and learn things and bring them back. So
I was getting tattooed there and I, just

(11:08):
Yeah. Yeah. You were there for what? I mean, you're not there anymore,
No, I just, I mean, I, I mean, I never left until they gave me a job. Yeah.
Yeah. They, they, they eventually gave me an apprenticeship, you
know, and, um, that was pretty wild. Like, Cause
I was already like on day one, I did a tattoo. So it wasn't

(11:29):
really an apprenticeship. It was just, you're an artist here now and you vacuum
the shop and clean it up and pay for the paper towels and things,
Yeah. Like it was at the end of that, you know? Okay. It
was just at the end. They taught me how to make needles and then, but we were lucky

(11:52):
cause we could buy them, you know? they were fucking expensive, but,
you know, and like, you know, this was like still wild, wild west shit.
Like they was fucking autoclaving their needles and reusing them. And,
you know, it was, you know, it was pretty loose, like just, you
know, like using like, like you
have this one piece of carbon paper and it was just completely destroyed. And,

(12:12):
you know, you were, I wasn't allowed the new carbon paper, only the boss got
that. I'd get the ones with like nothing left on them. And, you know, like,
It was pretty, it was pretty cowboy. Yeah. But it was, it
was rad, you know? Um, we had some good times. Yeah. And
What, um, all right. So I'm kind of getting the picture now. So you're

(12:33):
there, you're, it's a street shop, you're cranking, you're grinding the
old school way. Um, and.
You're 18. When in your, I
don't know, there must have been a turning point in your career where obviously
the look of your work today is wildly different than the stuff you were
doing then. Was that just a huge, arching, slow transition

(12:56):
or was there a poignant moment, an exposure to
some other tattooers, a click in your own brain? Like
when did this, the style of work you do now, how
Yeah, there's a few moments for sure that are like, like
key moments, I think, but in

(13:18):
that shop, I was, I was not grinding. I was like, it
was quiet for me because they didn't like give me much
work because it was, you know, the shop was a little bit quieter than in its
heyday. And, and so I would tattoo friends and stuff a bit and,
and I would look at the magazines, you know, and, um, and
I was obsessed with, you know, Paul Booth and Robert Hernandez

(13:41):
and Boris and all these kind
of artists that, you know, and Paul Brenner, you know, from
Australia, like those were the guys, you know, like, and
I just wanted to do black and gray and, but
I didn't know how to do realism or make, you know,
proper cohesive art. Like I was just, you know, doing

(14:03):
bangers, you know, like, so like, you know, lower, you know, tramp stamps
and kanjis and all this shit, you know, like, and I would try and
do, like, heaps of HR Geiger stuff, but I just blew it. I didn't have
any understanding of what made that great, you know, like, I
just knew it was great. So
I just, just kept doing it and doing it

(14:24):
until I got to a point where I wasn't terrible. And
I think, like, if you do something, like if you tattoo for long enough, in
a particular style and you're just copying and rendering, you know,
but you get to a point where, you know, if you're really trying, like,
you know, you're gonna start to get good at rendering, you know, and

(14:44):
making these, you know, kind of cohesive, you
know, replications of the thing that you're trying to make, you
know, and I see a lot of tattooists, young tattooists like that now
where I'm like, oh yeah, cool, you've worked really hard and you've got
rendering down, you know, but there's no art, it's just like,
you're just doing it because it's fucking cool when you love it, you know, you

(15:05):
don't really know what you're doing. So I got to that point. And
then I was starting to get some recognition, like
people would be like, fuck, that's pretty cool, you know, like, and
then I was at this like, they
had this like little tattoo exhibition thing in Christchurch, New
Zealand called like Sins back in the day. And I went to

(15:28):
that and this Australian artist who I believe was
also called Steve Johnson, which is wild. He
actually was like, he came up to me and he's like, kid, these are pretty fucking good.
Like, he's like, I've got something you need to watch. And he gave me
a burnt copy of the OG Joshua
Carlton tattoo DVD. And

(15:50):
I, And I watched that like 10 times and
it changed my life, you know, cause, cause I learned by
watching and, and it was the first time I'd really seen and had
somebody explain to me, you know, um, what I was trying
to achieve. And that set
off like, yeah, that was a moment, you know, that

(16:11):
was huge for him that he did that. And, you know, thinking
back about it, people were like, Oh, fuck this guy. And, you know, you
know, whatever, like, you know, like, gatekeeping and it's like, man,
like if it wasn't for that DVD, I don't know where I would, you know, if
I would be where I am today without him, you know, and, and
I, and I, you know, I fell in love with that guy's work and I pestered that

(16:33):
guy for years and, and eventually, you know, got, you know, he
recognized my work and, and then we would talk and then he
would critique it and, you know, and we, you know, that,
that just having like that validation was, That
Yeah, that would make sense. I, God, it's so funny. I'm remembering having

(16:56):
the book he did, but I don't remember having the DVD. I don't
know why I didn't have the DVD. I remember, I remember some of
the stuff he wrote in the book and he was the first one who was showing kind of these big mag configurations.
And I remember being pretty turned on that as well. Like it was
a turning point for me as well. That's interesting. So this
is probably what year five or seven years in at this point

(17:19):
Yeah, yeah, I think I started at Down
Under, I believe I started there when I was maybe like
21 or somewhere around there, 22, I'm not sure. No,
yeah, 20, 21. And then, yeah, and then that
was a couple of years after being at Down Under, that kind of, that
moment happened. And then Yeah,

(17:43):
from there I just started trying to apply all
of those teachings, I guess, from those DVDs, and
then I started to understand why
things were working and why they weren't. I heard somebody explain that
once you learn how to learn, and once I could start to
understand that I actually need to learn how to do this, I can't just keep

(18:06):
doing it and think I'm going to get better. So I had to actively
work out how to critique what I was doing and develop what
I was doing. And you're still just kind
of coasting along, fucking shit up, and your tattoos are good
sometimes, they're bad sometimes, you know? And
you don't really, you're just like, this is cool, you know? You're just doing it

(18:27):
and going through the motions. I started to win some
awards at tattoo exhibitions. I
took a bunch of clients to the first big New Zealand tattoo convention
and just was like, I'm going to... Because at this point, I'm
still not making rent every week. I've got no work
on. We're fucking broke. And we're nearly 10 years

(18:48):
in at this point. And we were living week
to week and we just had a kid. And it
was fucking hard still, but my wife was you
know, supportive and tolerant of this crazy career.
And we were fucking broke. But I kept going. And yeah, I
went to this New Plymouth Te Riu festival. And

(19:10):
we took a heap of clients. And there was like 11 categories or something. And
I think we won seven or eight of them, you know, like, and And
that, as much as people, you know, like, you know, art's subjective, and,
you know, you can't be the best at it and stuff, I think just for people
to see that, they're like, oh, okay, like, he's
good, like, you know, like, that got people over

(19:31):
the line. And then I started to get appointments, you know? And that was
huge, because then once I had people that were, like, you know, lining up to
get tattooed, then I was really
That's rad, that's cool. Yeah, so now we're
gonna get to the point here where the work I see you're doing now,

(19:55):
all this figurative work, and tell
me a little bit about this, and I don't know how long you've been doing this, but I see in some
of your Instagram posts how you're taking and
creating the photography for a lot of these pieces in such interesting ways, too.
I think I saw one where a lot of your characters are flying
through the air or floating down through and you've got these

(20:15):
people out on trampolines jumping in the air and you're taking photographs while
the Billowing fabrics are billowing around them and I and you're
using those photographs as your own reference point for the pieces that
I mean that didn't start right after Joshua Carlton, I'm assuming No,
yeah, so I guess like after that kind of The

(20:37):
first wave part, you know of work there
was, um, I was,
it was still really quiet. And, um, there, there
was another kind of bit before that I can touch on quickly where
after the whole, you know, tattoo festival and the getting, starting to

(20:57):
get a bit of recognition, then like, um, there was a fucking big
earthquake and it fucked everything up and destroyed the shop that
I worked in and destroyed our home and destroyed heap
of people's lives and, you know, killed fucking hundreds of people in
my town. And that was fucked. It

(21:18):
was really, really traumatic. But I'm lucky I
survived. Some people didn't, you
know. And, you know, some of the shops, like, you know, there was One
shop in particular where, you know, a young artist
called Matt, who was really fucking promising, died, you
know, in that earthquake, and it was fucked up. And, you

(21:39):
know, that really hurt a lot of people, you know, especially the
people in that shop. And, you know, another girl got really fucking
hurt, you know, and their lives will never be
the same. So that happened on Tuesday in
2011. I think, um, you know, that was like the fucking, what

(22:01):
was it? The 11th of September or something, I
think. And, um, on a Tuesday and
Well, that's all. Let me pause you there though. So you just said that happened
No, I think now maybe it was the 13th of September.
Maybe it was, it was somewhere around there. Yeah. But it

(22:24):
was in September. And, um, but anyways, um,
it happened. Yeah. And that was on a Tuesday and
everything got fucking destroyed. And on, I
was walking home from the studio and it was like knee deep liquefaction, fucking,
you know, everything's destroyed. And, um, I, I
called, um, a tattooist, um, called,

(22:47):
uh, uh, Dean, um, from,
um, sacred tattoo. in Auckland, and Dean
and Dan, and they're fucking incredible. Just look
up Sacred Tattoo if you guys haven't seen what they do. It's
amazing. Like Japanese body
suits and top tier, world-class artists. I

(23:09):
call them, and I'm like, hey, can I come to a guest spot? And they're like, are
you still alive? Are you OK? And I was like, yeah, I'm OK, but
I want to get out of here. So they took me
on and I moved to Auckland and that was another huge turning
point because all of a sudden I was booked
out for like fucking three months after never having a week's work just

(23:29):
because I moved to the city. So, you know, the
city does have its perks, I guess. And then they were
really fucking cool because they, you know, they sat me down and
they critiqued my work and they went, you know, this tattoo's bad and this is
why, and this tattoo is world class and this is
why. And I'm like, so stop doing this and do more of this,

(23:50):
you know, like, and just having a real firm, like, dad
talk to me, like, about, like, just my direction and,
like, that consistency, that
was the second huge moment in my career, you know,
that, and I kept, and I live by that, you know, so. um
that that translated into so many things and that

(24:13):
helped me to create you know the basis of my whole teaching model
that I use at Ship Shaped Tattoo with all the artists that we've had come through there
you know like just being able to refine and really kind
build on that concept, you know? I think you were saying how
these guys taught you how to really get more critical
and more straight up about what you were doing and how to focus in

(24:36):
on a certain thing you are doing that's working and not wasting too
much time catering to whatever comes through the door and
focusing your art towards your specific talents.
How to pick and choose, you know, and, and, and then, and
then it kind of all started to click and, and, you know, that whole learning how to
learn thing. I just, I try to, you know, I keep trying

(24:58):
to think of how to refine that. You know, I remember as
well, like I read this article. that Gogue had in
like a, maybe a Tattoo Life magazine or something. And he
said about, you know, just showing people what you want to do, don't show
them everything, you know? And so I started to refine my portfolio and
I started to push that out there. And then I started to do these tattoos and

(25:19):
like really think how can I make them better and better, you know, like, and
that kind of led to the next point gradually over the course
of a few years, you know, we, um, we
opened Ship Shaped Tattoo because I got so busy. You
know, I worked at Sacred for a while and then Blue Lotus Tattoo and
then I just got so fucking busy. I was like, man, I'm gonna open a shop, you

(25:41):
know, like I'm booked out for two years. You know, it was just like,
it was like the, you know, the, I
guess my heyday of that sort of just massive, like
everybody was watching, you know, and I was just doing anything though. Like
I was just doing like wet roses, fucking, you know, like, skulls,
portraits, and I was good at it, you know, so people were just like,

(26:03):
holy fuck, you know, like, and I was, I
had that traditional base, but I kind
of worked out realism at an early enough stage
that there wasn't a lot of people doing it. And, you
know, you do a fucking wet rose with some water drops on it and people lose
their fucking mind, you know, and, you know, and then that

(26:24):
just created like, you know, opened the floodgates to the work, you
know. And then that
started ship shape and we took on a bunch of artists and I had so many
emails that I could just keep as many terrorists as
we had busy, just passing them the
work, you know, that I couldn't keep up with. And I could show

(26:44):
them what I'd learned and pretty efficiently without the
10 years of fucking around, because I was like, no, no, no, like this, you know,
and this is, you know, this is how we, you know, this is
how we move forward, you know, so I was able to, you
know, efficiently kind of show them that, you know, and that,
that was crazy cool, you know, but

(27:07):
I guess it got to a point where I did that for so many years and I
was so busy just doing the same tattoos and
it got to a point where they just didn't mean anything, you know, like, um, and
they were cool and they were important for the people, but I don't want to take away
from that, you know? So I, I was in
a, I was stagnant and I burned out.

(27:31):
And, um, I didn't feel like I was going
anywhere, you know, with, with my art and it didn't bring
me that joy anymore. You know, like, so yeah,
it just kind of fucking, I just had like a, I don't
know, it's just a fucking, yeah, just
a bit of a breakdown about it. I was like, what the fuck am I doing? You know? And

(27:54):
I wanted to feel like a real artist, you know, like, because people were like, oh, you know,
it's just just tattoos. And so then I was like, oh, I'll
become a painter, you know. So I started researching that and it's
like trying to work out how to kind of start again and
become this like maybe this maybe if I do paintings, I'll be
a real artist, you know, and I could and I could have an exhibition, you
know, have a body of work and do these things. And

(28:18):
then. Through the process of doing that, and I
worked out what I wanted to do, I started learning how
to do it. And, you know, I approached the right people and started
to study, you know, the things that I'd never learned, you know, like, you
know, academic art and these sorts of things. And
then somebody hit me up for this tattoo, and they were like, I

(28:40):
want to get my back done, like the statue, you know, and
I've done every fucking statue tattoo there is, and I'm fucking done
with it, you know. Like, and they're cool. Like, don't get me wrong. And
you know, like, I think it's important and it's a good stepping stone in
your career to create these master studies and
reproduce other people's work. But surely

(29:01):
there's a point where you want to make your own work. Right?
So I guess I'm ready to quit tattooing. I'm fucking
done. I want to move to the country. I'm going
to become this painter. And then this guy hits me up with
this tattoo. And I'm like, well, why? the
statue is terrible, why don't I just do what I'm doing with my paintings and

(29:22):
recreate the narrative and the composition using
some photography and some props and I'll make a
better version of that statue or my own version of
that statue, you know? And I pitched
it to the client and he was like, yeah, sure, you know? And

(29:42):
I didn't really realised, but
that was like the, that was the moment when my career just
started all over again, you know, because then I had this one
tattoo that I could show other people and be like, hey, that's a cool idea. But
what if, you know, And and
and I had this little spiel that I made and it's like I felt like a

(30:04):
car salesman But I have this like I'd have a consultation and I'd be like
this guy wanted this photo But then we did this photo and look how good the
tattoo is you know like and and that people were just like yeah That's
fucking actually pretty fucking cool. You know I
think there was the next guy that came to me was like I want
like a fucking ghost pirate ship and a compass and
I love the ocean and I was like fuck, here we go

(30:27):
again, being all negative, you know, like, fuck, I don't want to do this shit
again. And then I was like, I've got an idea, you know, like, rather
than being negative and being like, fuck my job and fuck this, you
know, I was like, which is kind of where I was at. I
was like, Hey, man, like, that's a cool idea. And clearly, you have
like a massive infinity with the ocean. And, and

(30:49):
can I pitch an idea? And he's like, Yeah, shoot. And I was like, Okay, so if
we look back at history, there's all these incredible paintings, you know, And
I showed him, you know, the one that I showed him that he liked
the most was the Raft of Medusa by Theodore. And he
was like, yeah, that's crazy, but like, can you tattoo that?

(31:09):
And I was like, we can tattoo something like it, but we need to take it from landscape
to portrait. And I showed him my little pitch. And
I was like, we could make this, you know? And he's like, have you done
anything like this before? And I was like, nah, but I reckon we can do it, you know?
And he's like, all right. And, and that was it,
you know, that was, and then we got everybody in

(31:30):
the shop together a few months later and everyone's clients, like
10 tattooists and a bunch of clients or whatever it was. And
we fucking made a raft and we recreated
the raft of Medusa, you know, and, and
that, that was fucking crazy. Like right from the, when I

(31:52):
the the gray outline and and people were just
like oh shit you know like and
you could see it was like it was a real moment you know it was
that was cool um well that that that
is cool and that is obviously to me what sets your
work apart i mean it's especially nowadays

(32:13):
where with with uh pinterest and all these different availability
to get photographs of I
don't wanna shit on any other tattooers, because I think there's a lot of that that is
beautiful, but when I look at a lot of black and gray
stuff similar to yours, you can start seeing the repetitive,

(32:34):
I know what statue they used, I know that building, that
arch is from this church in this location. So to
start building your own sets, photographing
those sets, using your own reference, Oh man,
kudos to you, dude. That is what sets your work apart and makes it
totally unique. And that's what I think is, I mean, for

(32:56):
me, an artist, I don't know, I don't wanna
say that you have to be this to be an artist, but for me, I
always felt like art was the ability to create something novel.
to use your imagination to create something that maybe people haven't seen
before. And maybe that's just my preference or

(33:16):
what I respect, but you've done that with black
and gray realism that sort of looks like the
art of the post-Renaissance looking art, but it's original.
You made it. It doesn't exist. There isn't a painting like it somewhere in
a museum. It's your original stuff. And that's
Yeah. You know and I've

(33:39):
been the guy that was just kind of going to work at
9 a.m. And designing a whole back piece on
Google Image search and then banging
it on at like 11 a.m. And just going through the motions doing
these tattoos like I've been there and and that was what killed it for me,
you know, so to It's

(34:00):
like I'm the yeah, like it's not to
be negative because I've been there, you know, but like I the
world's so obsessed with convenience. And that's
what killed the whole thing for me, the art, the,
you know, the, I was just, I was just making, you know, I
was just making sandwiches. Like it was, you know, like it wasn't, you know, I

(34:21):
wasn't being a sandwich artist, you know, it was fucking like,
you know, like I just didn't care anymore. And that's why I
fell out of love with it. So I had to do that, you know, and
I think that's, that's an important part of people's career, but like,
I often find myself asking now, when
younger artists come up to me and they're like, hey, what do you think of this tattoo I did? And I'll be like, man, it's

(34:42):
really good. But what's it about? And I
think technically, tattooing is
at this incredibly high point, where
we have the technology, we have the skills. There's so many
amazing tattoo appliers, but there's not a lot of
great tattoo artists. You know, and

(35:05):
what are you going to do to separate yourself? What are you going to do so that you can look
at your work and be like, yeah, that's fucking, I love that. You know, cause when
I make my tattoos, I'm not making them to try and impress people.
I'm making something that I believe is important for me.
And I know that it's good, you know, and the narrative there, there's
heaps of like little hidden bits and pieces that I

(35:26):
never, nobody's going to fucking know. Like, and I don't care, like,
cause I'm doing it for me, you know, like, and, And that
was a huge point, you know, like, and realizing that, and
I think if more people can realize that, like, this is our renaissance, you
know? And it's
funny, like, because people are like, ah, tattooing's this, and

(35:48):
it's that, and it's gone to the dogs, or, you know, like, but, man,
tattooing's so young, you know? Like, we've only been, how long
has tattooing been a viable career, you know?
Not long, like 40 years, maybe so. So.
Probably even less than that. I mean, yeah, you could pay your bills, um, maybe

(36:08):
80 years ago, but I mean, like supportive family and, and
be able to buy a house and, and, and do regular normal life stuff, I'd
So if you're now saying, ah, Ted, I've gone to the dog,
I missed the heyday. You just being like, um,
you just didn't, you know, and I feel for you, like, but, but
like, work it out, evolve, you know, like, man, I

(36:31):
had that whole life that I had that whole career before this one, you
know, and, and I just worked real, you know, I just, I
just had to work it out because I knew I loved tattooing. And so that's
why I do what I do, you know, like, and that's why
you're noticing and people are noticing because I'm being passionate
and I'm really trying, you know, like I went from spending an hour designing

(36:53):
a back piece to spending six fucking days
designing a back piece. We drove all around the country taking
photos of fucking stunt riders on horses and
people getting mauled by dogs to make the manhunt. And
it's not something new. I'm just doing what they
did in the Renaissance and post-Renaissance. I'm standing on

(37:15):
the shoulders of giants. But I'm standing
on the shoulders of Rubens and
Caravaggio And I'm standing on the shoulders of Jose Lopez
and Carlos and Freddie and all
those. I have two sets of idols and heroes and

(37:35):
without them, I don't exist. So it's not like
I've done something new. It's just, I'm just doing it.
I'm just actually fucking putting my phone
down and trying. And I think that's the
important thing that anyone can do. I
hope more people do it, because I see these incredible artists that

(37:55):
are technically better than me at tattooing, but
it's like, what's it about? So if
they can bridge this gap and have that moment where
they're like, oh, fuck, I'm going to try harder,
then you wait, man. You wait and see what comes out of tattooing in the next
decade. If we can get those people to

(38:21):
Yeah. Well, not all of them. I'm
fucking pumped. Don't worry. What I
see out there is 90% of them won't, so you only got
I'm not worried, though. I'm excited. I think it's good.
People put too much
stock in worrying about how many tattooists there are, because

(38:45):
if you think of this little bubble, and this
is the tattoo industry, and all the people that like tattoos, and
then this room is the world. So
the more we do big things and have these
moments, the more people that have always said, oh, I never liked tattoos, but
I didn't know you could tattoo like that. And the more people

(39:06):
become tattooists, the more clients they become. So it
can grow more. More people can get tattoos. There's tons of people that don't have tattoos. Well,
not big ones, but you just have to create a
market. And to do that, you just have to be fucking
You can only give people what you have. If you're not inspired, you're not going

(39:29):
You're just being a troll under a bridge, grumbling about it, then you're probably not
No, that's what you that's what you'll attract. That's very true. Very true.
And let me ask you this, though. So that's a great story, by
the way, of that transition and that I keep calling the
midlife crisis of tattooing you went through and how you had to really
find this new way of creating tattoos that that made that made you

(39:51):
inspired. How many years ago did that part of your career
Nine years ago that I took or
eight years ago or something that, no,
about nine years ago, I took a photo. I got

(40:12):
my family and I posed them to recreate this
painting that Caravaggio did of Christ being
propped up. And I took this one photo, like we
went up into the attic with a big skylight and I dressed them up and
just like posed them and took a photo. And I remember just looking
at it on the camera going, I can do this, I can make

(40:35):
anything, as long as it's some people doing something, you
know, like I, there is no limits. And
that was the moment that that happened, because, and
that was for painting though, and then it was sort of in that next year or
so that I realised, why the fuck do I need to become this
two bit painter when I'm like, I'm always going to be like, an

(40:57):
okay painter. Like I'm already a good tattooer. I
can apply this to my tattooing. And it's just fucking common
sense, you know, I remember Philip Lou saying that, you know, back becoming
a musician, like, it's like, what are you doing starting again?
Like, just stick to it, you know, like, you're there, you're like, right at the fucking the
bit where it's about to get good, you know, and, and that was the

(41:19):
moment, you know, where I was like, okay, I can fucking And that
was like, you know, floodgate open, like fucking, you know, attack
dog photoshoots, underwater photoshoots, fucking trampolines, fucking
like, I need a beer, you know, like, where do we get a horse from? Like,
you know, like, and yeah,
that's, that was it. It was just, yeah, it's only just beginning, man. Like,

(41:41):
I've got some plans, you know, and it's just, you think, you know, anything
that you can physically photograph and create, then For
me, all I need is the mass of the composition. So
that could be a few people doing something, a few
animals doing something, and then the water, the clouds, the

(42:02):
raft, whatever. I freehand a lot of that. So just
using good reference, that's similar. Sometimes
I pull from an original painting or story, and
sometimes it's just all me. the
big thing is just study, study, study, you know, like, study

(42:23):
those paintings, study the meaning, you know, I'll jump online if
I'm doing, you know, a story about St, a
composition about St Christopher, I'll study, I'll study everything I
can about that narrative and understand why it's
important and what it's about and what's the message. And
then I'll make my sketch, and then I'll make my photograph, and then I'll make

(42:44):
my tattoo. And they're all very different things. If I showed you the photos for
these tattoos, you'd be like, that's a terrible photograph. But
That makes sense. Yeah. You're getting all these bits of photography, you're collaging them
together. Then you bring it in your illustration skills, patch it
in the pieces and the flow and the clouds or any other little bit

(43:04):
that maybe you couldn't photograph. But, um, but
definitely with the human form, I mean, it's, I
don't know, I don't know of anybody who can draw a woman falling through
the air with fabric streaming across her body just
from their brain. I mean, there's probably somebody out there that can do
that, but. that having those pictures are going to help you out a

(43:25):
lot, but it's a lot of extra work. I mean, it's funny how you went off to be a painter
and then you kind of are a painter, but
you just took it back to the skin. You know, like you're making paintings, your,
your, your pieces have a very painterly look to them, you
know? Um, so you're, you are
that painter. You just didn't change mediums. You just stuck

(43:46):
with the medium you had in the beginning, you know, and gave it
of realizing that, like, hey, like, why are tattoos,
you know, because I've been told my whole life, you know, like, you
know, by some people, you know, that tattooing is not real
art or whatever. So, like, why? Like, why can't my tattoos be just as

(44:08):
important as a painting? And why can't
our tattoos end up in a museum one day? Or, you know, what
separates us from that? There's nothing. All
there is is this indoctrinated social norm
that tattoos are counterculture, or

(44:30):
they're Bogan, or they're whatever. And that's just
some fucking rich white
person ideology. It's not true. There's
no fucking difference between me and
those artists. you know, like the, and, and, you know, and
us and the tattoo industry, there's thousands of

(44:51):
incredible tattoo artists who the work is really important. And
there's this like, there's this worldwide
You know, to be, to be, I mean, you're a hundred percent right. I mean, obviously
it's a social stigma that separates us from the fine art world and.
They don't want to let us too close into those circles and still don't to

(45:14):
some degree, although I do think it's changing. But to be fair, there's a
lot of tattooers out there that don't really create art.
I mean, you know what I mean? And that's the thing people might
be thinking when they say that is, you're going to try to tell me that this
guy in the shop over here just copies flash off
a wall or does, you know, little words on people's ankles.

(45:36):
That's, that's fine art. And, and the answer is kind of, to be fair, probably
not, but there are a shitload of tattooers
like yourself that there's absolutely no doubt at all. It's it's
fine art, you know, or whatever you want to call it. It's art, you know, but
Yeah. Yeah. Because there's these artisans and

(45:58):
there's craftsmen. you know, tattoos, you know, and then
there's, and there's artists, you know, like, so there's a, it's like in, but
that's the same as painting, you know, there's, there's mums out there doing,
you know, and dads, and doing these fucking, you know, like lounge room
art, mass produced, you know, you know, there's AI to compete
with now, and there's all this shit, you know, but then there's, there's still great painters

(46:18):
out there, you know, and I think, I just think in tattooing, it
doesn't, there's for a lot, for people from outside of this bubble, you
know, that they, even the great ones,
they look at it and go, yeah, but it's a tattoo. So this is my, this
is my thing that I, my wall I'm trying to break through, you know, now,
because, yeah,

(46:41):
I'm not trying to be the most fucking famous, popular, fucking handsome,
fucking most followers tattooer, but, but I would like
to, I would like to change the way people think about it. You
know, as many people as I can, you know, tattooists, I'd like
to, show them that, you know, we can do better if you just think
and try and love more the process, then

(47:03):
your art will become more prominent, more, you
know, special to you. And I think for people outside of our
bubble, I want them to just fucking admit that it's good, you know, because
when people will say like, oh, you know, I hate tattoos, but I like yours. It's
like, well, just ditch that first bit because that's just ignorant, you
that you know this is this is my thing and you know not to not to

(47:25):
grumble about it but it's just like when you hear something your whole life you're just like you
know it's just like that's troglodyte behavior to
think like that it's it's hard when
you pour the kind of i know what you've poured into
your tattooing and i've done the same when you give your your whole life
your health your mental well-being to something and

(47:47):
then to have somebody shrug it off like Oh, you're just over there fucking around.
Just the tattoo guy. It's kind of like, dude, you have no, yeah,
yeah. It's, it hurts when you hear it. Luckily, uh, the
people we hang out with probably don't tell us that very often. We got our little bubbles
of people who love us and love our work and we get plenty of high
fives, which is nice. Um, but yeah, when I go to

(48:08):
like a neighborhood party and everybody there at the party in
my neighborhood, they're all like, investment bankers and all these different
folks, and I'm in the middle, and they just assume, you
know, look at this guy, he's got a nice house, he looks like he makes good money,
what is it that you do? And I have to kind of, I'm
a tattoo artist, and you can just feel the room like, huh? But

(48:31):
what else do you do, man, you deal drugs or something? Come on,
you're up to something. I'm like, no man, I'm a fucking tattoo artist, okay, that's what I do.
But that's okay. They're coming around. The world is coming around.
And I guess, you know, looking at your work, I'm kind
of referencing your more recent body of work, the last nine years, as you put
it. you kind of are just getting started. I mean, you've started

(48:53):
an entirely new way of tattooing that's kind
of young in the bigger scope. I mean, you look at guys like Philip Wu
and Henning and these guys, I mean, they are, they've
been doing what they do for much, much longer. So I just
think there's also a lot of room ahead of you for what's next, you
know? But on that note, I mean, one of the things I wanted to talk to

(49:14):
you about today is this, I guess I'll
call it a show, It's called, everybody listening, it's called A
Body of Work. By the way, it's gonna be opening
for private people on the 11th of October, but it
starts for the public on October 13th, and it runs until November 29th.
And I'll let you talk about it in a second, but the way I'm understanding it is it's

(49:36):
high-resolution photography of a lot of the work you've done
in this past nine years, blown up to a massive scale.
But take it from there. Is that what we're gonna see, what people should expect
yeah man that's it like and you know eight nine
years ago i when i had this epiphany i was like because

(49:57):
it was all leading to i want to have an exhibition then
that was the idea behind the painting and then i was like why don't i have an exhibition
about my tattoos you know and then there was
the logistical nightmare of well it has to be my intellectual property
And that was what really drove me to develop and
push the style was this exhibition. So I

(50:18):
came up with this idea and I just fucking ran
with it and it snowballed and changed over the
past decade. But what we've landed on is I'm
having a solo art exhibition of medium
format photography that's eight foot tall or
two and a half meters high, depending on what part of

(50:40):
the world you're in. Um, yeah, medium format
photos on photo rag, the best quality paper,
the best quality photos I could produce of
this work. That is the best quality work I could make over the
past decade. And that was all,
yeah, it's all for this. It's all for my, my show,

(51:02):
my, um, my exhibition Magnum Opus, I
think they call it. So yeah, the, it's going to be that
it's going to be my really fucking big
first kind of dive into the fine art
world, I guess. It's like a contemporary photography exhibition. It's
a tattoo exhibition. It's, you

(51:23):
know, it's just to celebrate all
of that hard work and to show people in a way that
is, it needs to be shown. And no, you know, nobody really done
it before. There's been a, you know, a few photography tattoo exhibitions,
but the whole concept of, you know, we sit
on these fucking things and look at these like over-edited pictures,

(51:45):
doom scrolling, maybe you double tap on it if you like it, or put a fire emoji
on it if you really like it, but like that
doesn't do the work justice, so to come and see
this work you know, four times, ten
times life size in some situations where we're like cropping a
section of the tattoo and blowing it up to seven foot tall, and

(52:05):
you'd be able to see the fucking molecular structure of this person's skin, let
alone the tattoo, and every little blowout and every little
wrinkle, you know, like, I want
to see that, you know. I don't even know what that fucking looks like until we
print it out, you know, which is happening this
week. Yeah. That's

(52:26):
going to be fucking cool, man. And it's just been, it's
been a massive undertaking. Um, I didn't realize how
big, my family didn't either, I think, but I'm so excited that
it's coming real and I'm just pumped to show everyone. I'm pumped for
the tattoo community and I'm pumped for people outside of
the tattoo community to come and see it and just, you know, uh,

(52:48):
yeah, I don't even fucking know, man. It's just, it's massive. Like I
had no idea like how hard and big a job this would be. just
like learning how to do that has
just been insane, you know, because we're putting on the whole thing ourselves, me and
my family and friends, like put this whole thing together. Yeah.
Yeah. I can't even imagine it. Is it? Now let me ask a few basic questions. Is it all

(53:12):
Yeah. It's all my photos. Um, so
like I said, shot in medium format and we tried to shoot on location
with a lot of the photos. So Some of the
photos are in the water and some of them are, you know, in
the forest. And, you know, depending on the tattoo and
the scene and the tattoo, I tried to kind of curate

(53:33):
the photos to be in an environment where they
And is it an exhibition or are these pieces for
The photographs are like additions and they'll be for sale in different
sizes. So there'll be, you know, there'll be like a mural size
piece, a large, a medium, and a small. And

(53:55):
yeah, ranging from the small to like, you know, a
few foot long. So yeah, it's
a big show. Yeah. And we're going to have a fucking big
gift shop, like a museum. It's in, I
don't know, I don't know how you would do it in feet, but
the space is fucking massive. It must be like, 500 square

(54:18):
meters 600 square. It's fucking ginormous, and it's a big
old beautiful Art
Deco building with massive big arched windows Like
a fucking museum, and we've got like a full gift shop you know like there's
stick-on tattoos of my work and a thousand piece puzzles
and you know heaps of merch from sullen and Some

(54:42):
other great companies and ghost lines been super detrimental for
name drop, but man, without those guys' support, like, yeah, it's
huge. Like what we're doing for the show, like, you know,
just the, yeah, the dance of like putting
it all together, it's just been insane, because we're trying to

(55:03):
do a lot, you know, like, Bishop's doing a
limited edition machine for it, Inky's is doing a limited edition cream
for it, like, and, you know, Ghost Line's been
like, they helped me to print all of the work, like,
there's all these companies, you know, even, you know, dynamic and
other, other companies all supporting it and helping it come together. Cause

(55:25):
like it cost me a fucking fortune, you know, we had to take a mortgage out
on the house and, and, um, and get
all those sponsors and, and all of our life savings gone,
Damn, putting it all on the line. Yeah, dude, I love that all in,
man. You're all in. And yeah, those are great. Those are great companies and

(55:45):
great sponsors and shout out to them for helping you out. You
know, Franco and Bishop, we've worked together for a lot of
years. Great people over there. at Inky's as well. So
yeah, thanks to all those folks supporting the art really. I mean,
yeah, like you said, like without it, would you even, you know,
guys like me and you wouldn't be able to put some of this stuff together. It's just beyond us

(56:08):
It's literally like, I don't even want to say the number, but you can
imagine, you know, like if you've got a mortgage house and have all those sponsors come
on board just to get this thing over the line, like it's insane how
much it costs to put on a show like this, you know, just to produce the work.
It's like a house deposit, you know, like, So like, yeah,
it's, it's, and I think maybe that's why no one's done it now that I look back,

(56:30):
but, um, I'm glad I'm glad I've done it and
Well, I unfortunately won't be able to get over there
to New Zealand, but you had mentioned earlier, it might be traveling later
on. So I do look forward to hopefully being able to see it myself. It
sounds absolutely mind blowing. And like you said, kind
of the first of its kind, right? First time. I hope

(56:52):
you do bring it over and let me know. I
can't sponsor, but I could shout it out. I could let people know. Whatever I
could do to help, I'd be stoked to be a part of it. But are
you going to do a book with it too? I mean, I would assume a book would be attached
Yeah. There's a couple of things happening. So there's

(57:15):
a A very dear friend of mine, Shay, has
got this company called ThinkVid, so he's been working behind the scenes, filming
B-roll and stuff, and he's gonna work on putting together a short documentary
about it. We're just trying to, same thing, you know, just trying
to get somebody to help with funding to make that a reality, if
anybody's watching. And then I've

(57:38):
been talking to the good people at Raking Light Project, and
there will be a big, very
fucking cool book at some point,
but that's in its infancy, but it's going
to be rad. And that's going to be a massive, for

(57:58):
me, I think like following those guys for the longest time and
all of the great things they've done to even be considered to
be a part of that, that's enough, you
know, for me, like that the exhibition was a good idea, you know, just to
get that opportunity. Yeah. So
there will be a book eventually, there will be a show in

(58:18):
either Europe or America at some point. But
I'm gonna need a break because this is near on
killed me. So yeah, my family and myself included
all need a rest. But I think after the show is done, we'll have
a break and then we're gonna look at trying to bring the show stateside
if we can get the support and get a gallery on board to

(58:40):
Yeah, we'll pack it
up and bring it over. Well, you're gonna need a
big boat for that thing, so good luck. I know you
can get it done, but yeah, these pieces are gonna be tricky to travel, but
you can figure it out. But like you said, you're almost there, buddy. Hang in
there. You're just, what, a couple weeks, few more weeks, and
you'll get that breather. I've put together some pretty big art shows, body

(59:03):
suit shows and stuff, nothing quite, I think, near this magnitude. But
even those things, man, I get done with them, and I'm like, I need a
month or two just to de-scramble my brain when they're over. And
they're expensive. And I never made money on the ones I've done, but, um,
but that's okay. You know, it's just, it's
about it happening, you know? Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Um,

(59:26):
let me, before, you know, we've talked a lot about your show and that's
amazing. I was a little curious with a guy like you, when I see a
body of work, a body of work, like you've produced about
your, um, Just your work flow. How
often are you tattooing? How many hours a day do you work? You're
obviously putting a tremendous amount of hours into these pieces. So what's

(59:47):
your work schedule like? I know you live out in the country, up
in the far north, and you have a little
place built out there where the people come, they get to stay there, they
get tattooed. I'm assuming you're probably doing multi-day sessions
with some of these folks if they're coming all the way out there. which is
super cool. Tell us a little bit about that, how you got your

(01:00:09):
workflow with your private studio and out in the country and how
Yeah, okay, cool. I guess, yeah, so I work in
the city one week a month at Ship Shaped Taru in Auckland. And
the rest of the time I work in Te Tai Tokera, the
far north, where my home is. People

(01:00:32):
fly in from all over the world. We cater
to clients coming for a week at a time. So say
if you were a client coming from America, you just booked
your flight to my airport. We pick you up from the
airport. We give you a loan car. We give you accommodation. We make you
lunch. We have dinner one time. Sometimes we'll take you fishing or

(01:00:53):
do a cool activity. and you stay for a week and you'll get
tattooed for like three to five days depending on your tolerance
and that. Some people will do two days but Generally,
just so that, you know, because you're making that big trip, you know, well,
like some people will do two days and then they'll have a break day and then they'll do
two days. One dude did like fucking eight or nine days,

(01:01:16):
so he's a psychopath. Like, you know, like it just depends on everybody's
pain threshold and stuff. But mostly we kind of
go around that. You come out for the week. You get
tattooed for as long as you feel good
and comfortable about. And then the rest of the time you chill. We
generally do the chilling at the start. You get climatized, get

(01:01:36):
your jet lag gone, you know, get used to, you know,
being in the far north, enjoy the beauty of it. And
then we do the tattoo. You know, and it's a big family
thing. You know, my son helps, my wife is detrimental, my
father-in-law lives with us. He's
the man, he'll pick people up from the airport and help us

(01:02:00):
run around and sort stuff out. It's a whole family thing.
My mum's around sometimes too, baking, and
then I cook. My
wife makes lunches, my son makes lunches. It's a
whole thing. It's like a family affair. Yeah,

(01:02:21):
it's cool, man. It's like a destination. thing where
we live in the most beautiful part of the country, looking
out over this amazing big mountain, Taratata,
and, you know, like, the valley, and, you
know, we live in Whangaroa, this place called Kaia Whangaroa, and
it's like this big sort of series

(01:02:43):
of, like, bays and coves in this
harbour, and it's just It's fucking beautiful, you know, and,
um, I love it there. We were always there on holiday. So I
just decided, I said to my wife, why don't we move here?
And we fucking did, you know, and it's just great. I love it. Um,
that's, that's my work life balance. Um, you know,

(01:03:04):
so I can, I can finish work and if I've got, well,
not this year, this year, probably my boats almost grown legs,
you know, but like normally we'd, you know, we'd go out fishing before work or
on the weekend and, you know, like, you know, spend time
working on old cars and hanging out and doing normal shit,
you know, like in between the tattoos is really cool.

(01:03:24):
And it's cool because my clients get to be a part of that. You know, I think they, a
lot of the people that I attract, like client wise, are
people that are interested in the outdoors or
they want to, they don't want to be in a big building studio, you know, we're
just chilling in my little cabin, looking out over
the mountains and it's a bit more laid back.

(01:03:47):
That's awesome. That's so dope. When you
talk about the experience, because the experience matters.
It's not just about leaving with a tattoo that's rad, it's about the memory of
that experience. I try to do the best I
can in my studio, and I've got a pretty nice little private place
I do my tattoos, and I think my clients like it, but that's a whole other level.

(01:04:08):
you know, when you think the memory they're going to have attached to the tattoo is
going to be connected to this, the warmth of your family,
the beauty of the nature, like it infuses the art
with another layer of, of, of radness. You
And it's, it's not to take away from the beauty of a, of a
great tattoo studio. Like, you know, I miss, you know,

(01:04:30):
that, that grass is greener thing. I miss the hustle and bustle and that's why I
spend time at ship shape and, and I spend time at the raven and
the wall. in Long Beach, my boys. And, you
know, I have these like homes away from home because I
crave that, you know, and I think it's cool for clients. You think of
like, you know, you can go to a restaurant, maybe it's

(01:04:51):
fucking chaos and they're shouting at each other and they're rude to you and then
you leave and you don't come back. Or, you know, maybe you go and
it's like this little ma and pa like fast food thing and you know
it's special and you always go there. Or maybe you're going to a fine
dining restaurant And it's like this perfectly curated experience
where they really look after you and think about every little part of that meal

(01:05:12):
because they know that you've saved up and waited to go and have
that meal. This is what tattooing is. So
people will spend all of it. They save up all their money. They
put in all this work to come and collect art
from you. And it's one of the most important, special things they'll
do in their life. So if you treat it anything less than that,

(01:05:33):
you need to fucking re-evaluate. And that's
the other side to this. The art's important, and
it has to be important to you, but the experience has to be important too.
And there's lots of ways to do that. A
street shop's important, and a big private studio is important, a

(01:05:54):
little private studio is important, but you need to be doing it for
Agreed, it can be done in a lot of different physical locations.
I think it really has more to do with the energy the tattooer brings to it, right?
Like you, in my way, and I think a lot of the tattooers I

(01:06:14):
know and respect, it's the same for them. You're just bringing attention
to that person that goes beyond the tattoo. You're thinking about
them. every little aspect of their day from when they
walk into when they leave. I mean, I just think what you're doing, it's just another, even
another level to that game. That's so, so, so cool. But let me
ask you this because you're these three day, four

(01:06:35):
day, five day, nine day sessions that, what do you, I want to
talk a little bit about pain management. What are you, do you use
any techniques or do you have any special advice or
is it just old school? Sit down, breathe. breathe
with me and we're gonna get through this, because those are some pretty, I've
done some three days with people, four, I don't know
if I've ever done four, I've never been tattooed for four days or

(01:06:58):
five days, I've never tattooed somebody for that long. I'm just
curious how you're managing them when
So I work in layers like oil painting, and
thank you for getting your back done by me, And the first time
you'd come over, we'd get the stencil on and we would work on

(01:07:19):
the piece like butt cheeks first day, you know,
lower back second day, mid third
day, shoulders fourth day. So the shoulders are the relief. And
you're like, thanks, fuck, we're on the shoulders, you know, and we manage the
pain through starting in the worst
space and moving forward and never going back to an area. And

(01:07:42):
then when you come back in, we do another four days,
for example, or three days or whatever. And I just run through and do like another
path and start to build up saturation and start to build up,
you know, like shapes and really thinking about it like a painting and
just working on developing all of these edges
and shape and values and, you know, structure and,

(01:08:04):
and, and, you know, looking and letting it heal and then looking at
it and taking a photo and comparing to my reference and what's better, what's
worse, you know, like, What can I change? Looking
at other paintings for inspiration on, you know, value
composition, where needs to be dark, where needs to be light. And I just build that up. And

(01:08:24):
this way, we don't stay in one area until the person's fucking dying.
And we just chug along and move
forward. And we only work from 10 till five. It's not
crazy days. We use like a
vat of Bactine. And that's
about it. Um, yeah, it's just, it's

(01:08:45):
like just being thoughtful and imagining
what that's like on yourself. Go get tattooed for five days if you're going to tattoo people
for five days too, you know, like in, in our, in
Māori culture, um, in Māori culture we get, um,
one of the tattoos is a pūhuru and it goes, it's like
pants. It goes from below your knees to your midsection and

(01:09:06):
they do it over five days, you know? And,
um, on the first day they do, which
is the spirals on your butt, you know, and then they move out
from there because the butt's kind of the worst part.
So, and, you know, I adopt those
techniques and that sort of what,

(01:09:29):
and, you know, a bit of what that's about. Like,
so to get your pūhuru done is like
a rite of passage. It's how you become a man or a woman. It's,
it's one of the most brutal things you'll do in your life and
it, you know, gives you mana and it commands respect
and it fucking shows people that you're tough enough to do it, you know? So

(01:09:52):
I guess when we do these Western
tattoos, it still has a
very big, significant spiritual and,
you know, and and, you know, life-changing
effect on us, I think. So I think just kind of embracing

(01:10:13):
that and respecting the fact that these people are going through fucking
hell to get these tattoos is really important. You
know, like I've got clients, you know, like Lee,
the guy with the Raft of Medusa, and he's got the manhunt on his back. Some of
you guys will have seen him. He comes to God's Event with me. His

(01:10:34):
back piece, Ah, you'd have to ask him, but
I think it took 60 days, you
know? It goes from the top of his back to his ankles. Like, it's
half a body suit. It was about that, I
don't know, 50 or 60 days. That's a
fucking lot of pain and money and time and

(01:10:55):
dedication. Like, that's like a transformative experience.
In his life, there will be few things that
are that taxing physically, emotionally, financially,
that is going through that tattoo, you know? So you
fucking be real respectful of that, you

(01:11:16):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, then that is, that's
cool the way you explain that to me as a tattooer. I'm thinking, I
wonder how is, what is technically the approaches here,
but that makes sense. Especially if you're, I look at your work and
I'm like, I assume there's layers to it. Just, I
can look at it and know it, like to be able to get that deepest

(01:11:37):
of blacks and the softest of grays in just one first pass.
Um, pretty, you know, maybe you could get away with it once in
a while in a small area on a tattoo, you get lucky and that one
movement. But when you get that big and I see what you're saying, like grab
the worst parts first, get on the butt cheek, move
some ink efficiently. Don't sit there in Dali and

(01:11:58):
keep messing around in the same little spot over and over. You need
a, you need a general amount of gray across your, put it in there. You need some
good black here, put it in there and move on. And you're getting into
fresh skin each time and then you see him on the next one. Now you
can deepen some values, accentuate some values that,
that, that's not what I thought you might say. But, um, but I could also
see how that working in that fashion, um, could,

(01:12:22):
could get somebody to the ability to sit for that many days, you know, cause
you're going to have to have some, you know, yeah, yeah.
You know, and I look, this is another thing, you
know, a lot of people like, they will reach out to me for a tattoo and
be like, ah, nah, fucking this guy said he would do it in half that amount of
time. Well, tattooist being like, oh man, that's a rip off. He takes way
too long. He's just milking it. He's whatever. And it's like, well,

(01:12:45):
fucking, you know, like, um, show me the same thing
quicker because I've fucking tried. I used to do five day back
pieces and they're fine. And like, there's something special about a
big, simple tattoo. And if that's your style, then that's sick.
But it's not mine. You know, my goal is like,
is how far can I push this? What's possible? And

(01:13:07):
I wanna see how far I can go. Where
can I push this to and what can I achieve? And the
healed work speaks for itself. And having, taking
it around the world and showing my heroes, Carlos
and Philip and Mickey

(01:13:29):
and all those cats, for them to see it and be like, Yeah,
you're on to something, Matt. That was cool for me, because
I look up to those guys. And I
remember Carlos used to tell me to slow down. And when
we first started hanging out, he's like, just slow down, man. You could do better.
So I slowed right down, and I did way better.

(01:13:53):
Yeah, it's important, I guess,
to take that advice and to really think about how you can be better. Cause
I know, I know I've got a lot I could learn and there's a lot of, I still look at my work
and I'm like, fuck, I, you know, I can do X, Y, and Z. So that's,
yeah, it's important to keep that. Yeah.
Very cool. And those names you mentioned. Yeah. All of us would love a compliment from

(01:14:16):
one of those guys. Those are, those are some of my heroes as well. Um,
well, very, um, well, how, let
me, uh, let's, let's kind of wrap it up here, but I want you to tell, like, how do
people, how long is someone going to have to wait to get tattooed by
I'm taking expressions of interest for next year. So
I'm wrapping up a lot of my projects, um, for the art exhibition.

(01:14:40):
Um, and, um, that'll be
all there at the, well, a lot of those clients will be there at the exhibition, which
I was going to ask you that. So there's, there's going to be some of the people that
Yeah. On the opening night, there's going to be a room full of naked ass
tattooed people, um, for everyone to have a look at in person

(01:15:01):
as well. So I'm wrapping up all those projects and
then Taking
yeah, I'm taking on new projects for next year I want to do some more
back pieces and sleeves and leg sleeves and I
want to you know I want a clean skin body suit my main goal,
you know Like that'd be sick to be able to compose a

(01:15:21):
whole body with this one big cohesive image of mine I
got some fucking cool ideas for that and Yeah I
guess that's it, you just
reach out to me, click me an email or whatever. And we start
the process, get you over, do the design and
have you come stay. And it's pretty straightforward, man. And

(01:15:44):
you know, like New Zealand's a small country. I charge
a lot less than a lot of big countries and stuff do because
their economy's not great. And I'm happy
with that. It's a good income for me and my family and
we supply a lot for it. I'm very proud of it. I
don't think people could get an experience like

(01:16:05):
what we do for
the amount of money it costs in
a big center. No
fancy fucking shit. We just do it. So
that's it, man. Reach out. Hit me up, I guess. I
generally take on about 10 clients because then I can really dedicate a lot

(01:16:28):
of time to composing and creating really
Yeah, I would think so. Yeah, with the amount
of work you're putting in pre-tattoo, yeah, you couldn't have
50 clients a year. You're giving your utmost attention
to each of those projects. Yeah, well, I don't know who's listening right now,
but if you've taken a look at Matt's work, I

(01:16:51):
think it speaks for itself. The experience of visiting
New Zealand and your home and in the whole way you're doing all
that. It's just very, very cool. So I
have no doubt you're going to have plenty of people lining up. Hopefully one of them has buttery, creamy
skin and wants a full body suit. I'm going to put that vision out there for you. Um,
I I'd even, I'd even fly out and help you out. I got no room left, buddy. Um,

(01:17:13):
but, but right on, man, thank you for sharing a bit about yourself, your
work, this show you're putting together. I wish you the best of
luck with that. Um, we'll, we'll try to get this. We will. I think my
people told me we're going to get this thing, uh, this episode put out before
your show, because we have a little bit of a list, but we're going to shove you to the front because
we need the world to hear about this before it happens. I don't know where I'll see

(01:17:34):
you. Maybe, uh, maybe you're going to Paris in January. I'll
probably skip it this time. Oh, you're taking a break. That's right. You're taking
I'm not allowed to do anything until June and my wife might kill me in my
Well, that's all right. I'll catch you at the next Gods of Ink. I think I
was there last, the last one you were there, but I was doing this show the

(01:17:54):
And you know, I want to get out to America and come see all my friends
and family out there. And, and, um, You know, I
want to keep the ball rolling. So yeah, we're, you
know, I'm pumped, but thank you so much. It's an honor to be on the show. I
love what you're doing. Thank you. Thank you. And
Well, and you too, my friend, you're an inspiration to me and I know so

(01:18:17):
many others, so nothing but respect. Thank you for
everything today. And I don't know when, but I know it's a small tattoo
world. I'll bump into you soon enough. Well, we'll see
you there. All right. All right. Sounds good. Take care, buddy. All right.

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A Body of Work: The Matt Jordan Episode

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