Breaking Barriers: Heather McLean (Hyphaea) on Women in Tattooing

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
having the right deflection, right, like, it's not that it was free
of bullshit, it's that I was like, your-
your opinions and your stuff about me and whatever
ideas you have about women in the industry, that's your business, and
🎵shit's about to go

(00:45):
The air and me are the same thing. I don't know why I
can't see them blending together at this current moment, but I'm everything, right?
And so are you. So let's just embody that, bring
it in, fuse with the everything, and have
Hey everyone, it's Aaron Dell of Adobe here at Chats and

(01:06):
Tats and thanks for joining us today. I am doing
something a little different. I'm going to do a remote podcast today. We've
been talking about it for a while and we want to reach out
and try to get a hold of some of these folks out there that just can't make it to San Diego. And
today we are lucky enough to have Heather McClain
with us. Hello, and she goes

(01:27):
by on Instagram, Hyphaea, H-Y-P-H-A-E-A.
If you're sitting by your phone, I would open up Instagram and take a look while you're
listening to this because her work is outstanding and it'd be pretty cool to
see what we're talking about in real time. But
she is what I would describe a kind of a large format. decorative,

(01:50):
illustrative, black and gray tattoo artist.
I know that's a lot of words, but I think when you look at the work, those words
will sort of make sense to you. You know, decorative, what is decorative?
For those of you out there that are tattooers, you probably know what I mean. For those of
you that aren't, There's just a big movement happening right
now where people are letting go of subject matter and they're

(02:11):
decorating their bodies with shapes and designs and it doesn't always have
to be a skull or a dagger or whatever
else. So she's doing a lot of that but she's still bringing in her.
her skills as an illustrator, because that's where she really started her career. So one
of the reasons she's here today, only one, there's many layers to
Heather, but is her talent, check it out, but

(02:33):
also her view on tattooing. And it sort of lines up with some of the
thoughts I have around this art form and what it means
to us. So I won't get too much into that. I'll let her tell
you more about that. So with all of this being said, please
Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. It's

(02:55):
an honor. Like I was saying in my intro, I did take
a very long, hard look at your work, and it's really cool.
Very inspiring. Maybe you want to throw all my colored inks in a trash can
Well, we'll see. Maybe. I've
got 32 years now, and I don't know how many years I got left. Do I want to make a change? I

(03:16):
don't know. Maybe you'll be that inspiration for me today. But
let's just start a little. I want to go deep. I always love going deep, and
I think you do too. But maybe you could just bring our audience into
just the beginnings of things. You're a young girl, and
somehow tattoo enters your life. How does tattoo

(03:37):
It's honestly because of my grandpa. Yeah, 26 years
ago. 1999 is when I started. My
grandpa had a snake and dagger tattoo on
his forearm from World War II. He was in the RAF as
a, he rode a motorcycle. He was a dispatch courier. And me
and my sister were just fucking fascinated with this tattoo. He

(04:00):
always had it hidden, but he'd roll up his sleeve and show it
to us. And apparently we would run away screaming like we were somehow scared
of it. I don't remember being scared of it, That's what happened. So
I think I've always been kind of interested in it. Like, why does he have
that? Why does he hide it? What's going on with
tattoos? It was kind of on my radar from the time I was little.

(04:22):
And then it was always interested in
art and drawing and painting. And I was in art school and kind
of also starting to get tattooed and watching what was happening in
tattooing, kind of like the Renaissance that happened in the 90s. was
getting taken over by like art school kids and people were making
tattoos that I'd never seen anything like before.

(04:44):
I was like watching all of the magazines come out and people
are tattooing and it looks like a painting or it looks like an illustration or
it looks like a drawing and I was just like that's an
option? Like you can make tattoos that look like that? What is happening right
now? So I had tried
going to three different art schools and

(05:05):
none of them were clicking with me. It all felt like they were teaching
things that I didn't want to learn and stuff that wasn't relevant to me. So
I was in school in Vancouver and decided that I
wanted to become a tattooer and I called my mom and told her, I was like, Hey,
I think I'm going to drop out of school and become a tattoo artist. And she
was like, wait, I'm going to fly out there.

(05:27):
And she flew out that night to come and we laid in my bed for like
eight hours, just talking about it in Vancouver. Cause she just, She
wasn't trying to talk me out of it, but in 1999, a
girl saying, I'm going to become a tattoo artist. She
was like, that's the equivalent of saying I'm going to run away and join the
circus. That's not a job. I had

(05:49):
been in tattoo shops enough to be like, whatever this
is I want in because it's very liberal you
get to just be yourself it felt really authentic there was
none of this weird professional decorum that felt
inauthentic like being professional is great but being fake
is not something that I really have enjoyed ever so being

(06:11):
in a tattoo shop and just people wear what they want and they listen to the music they
want and they get to be artists and their whole lives are just being artists all
the time I was like Sign me up. That looks awesome. So
I left art school and moved back to Edmonton and
literally was pounding the pavement trying to find an apprenticeship,
which was not easy because when I was 19, I looked

(06:32):
like I was 12. So, and that was,
Such a badass like lied lied about his age to
go and fight in the war when he was 17. So he could go
be a dispatch writer, like one of the most dangerous jobs ever. So it's

(06:55):
I love it. Did you have some relatively? good
I did. I did. Yeah, it was actually, I had a really good time.
There's, of course, lots of things I had to unlearn, like lots of
stuff that, you know, their knowledge and capacity with tattooing
maxed out at a certain point. They weren't the best

(07:16):
artists necessarily, but they gave me all of the skills that
they could and I really had a good time apprenticing. We
had lots of fun and I learned so much and I was so
just determined to get as much out of it as I could and
everybody was was really kind to me like my teachers were good and
they they really instilled that like you have to have

(07:37):
enough space between the lines and you need to have an outline and
like all of the sort of more traditional how do you tattoo
a thing so it's going to hold up over time I really got
that education which I think was such a gift because
Yeah, well, and also the era you're talking about, I

(07:58):
started my apprenticeships, I had three of them, a few years
before that, early 90s, but I mean,
I didn't have a good time. The people that taught me were violent and
cruel and all that, but I mean, I don't regret
any of it. I mean, like anything in life. You think something
bad's happening to you and then later in life you're like, wow, that really changed

(08:20):
who I am in a good way. I learned a lot, you know, so it's fine, but
it's cool to hear you had some people that were kind to you and really wanted
to see you succeed and not just torture you through your apprenticeship.
Yeah, yeah, because I've heard a lot of those stories and I mean, not
to say that there weren't things about it that were difficult. I mean, in
Edmonton and in Alberta, the province I live in, there just weren't

(08:43):
female tattooers then. Like not one.
So I did have to deal with things like people coming into
the shop and being like, can I talk to an artist? And
me being the smarmy little shit that I was, I would just be like, no problem.
Go around the corner, come back again. Like, hi, it's me. I'm an artist. But
you know, I didn't, it didn't crumble me. I wasn't like, I didn't feel

(09:06):
devalued as a person. They had just literally never seen
a girl tattooing before. So I couldn't get mad
at them. I didn't think it was sexism. It was just like, this is a
Yeah. Yeah. Those were, there was not very many
females at that time. I mean, heck Guru tattoo here with
the shop I run here in San Diego, I think 10 years ago,

(09:29):
not on purpose. It was all men. And, um, And
today, I don't know the exact number, but almost half of our
crew I think is female now. And I love it. I love it.
I love working with women. I
think back when I was being taught, it was like, women can't do
it. You know, it takes a lot of forearm strength and they don't have it in

(09:50):
them. And that's been shattered, obviously. It does
take a lot of strength, but you know what I mean? Like there's the idea that
women can't tattoo. It's a man's world that's
obviously gone now. And that's great. But yeah, you came in
when there wasn't very many. Patty Kelly, you
know, I don't know if you know her name, but she owned Avalon down here in San Diego. one

(10:11):
of my first real jobs. She was one of the only recognizable
female tattooers on the West Coast of, you know, her and Carrie Barba. Those
were, there's probably more, but those were the two that we kind of knew of. And
they were like unicorns. Everyone was like, wow, how'd they do it?
But they kind of opened that door, I think for a lot of other women to be like, oh shit,

(10:32):
we can do this too. You know? Yeah. That's cool. It's cool
that it didn't get too out of hand for you, because the tattoo world back then
had its pretty shady edges to it, but it sounds like
you found the right lane and were able to kind of weave your
Yeah, and also just having the right deflection, right? It's not that

(10:54):
it was free of bullshit, it's that I was like,
your opinions and your stuff about me and whatever
ideas you have about women in the industry, that's your business and
I'm not going to let it get in here. So it's
not that that didn't happen, because it did, but I was just

(11:14):
like, I have a goal, I'm here, I'm getting
to here, either you're helping me get there or you're in the
way. And thank God I just had the confidence that
I did as a 21-year-old kid in
that scene, because I think it would have crushed some other people
for sure. But I was just like, I had big

(11:35):
balls then, you know? I was like, I can do this all.
You had some wisdom. I mean, what you just said right there, when
people come at you with whatever it is, We'll
just label it there bullshit to be able at 21 to recognize
that's that's your stuff that you're projecting on me
has nothing to do with me and That's most

(12:01):
So did you have some, I'm still trying to integrate that. I'm
still, I have moments where I have to be like, Oh,
this is this person projecting on me. It's not because
I'm a bad person or a bad friend or a bad sister or
a bad kid or whatever. It's like, they're having a shitty day or they have
some unresolved stuff. And I don't mean that

(12:21):
in a way to not be accountable for when I'm fucking
up or doing something wrong. Because that's the first place I go. When
someone comes at me, I'm like, I have an inventory of like... Have
I done something wrong? Is it me? Am I the problem? Like that's, that's the first
thing that comes into my mind. But when I sit and think about it and process
it and have a chance to look at it and it comes out in the wash that

(12:43):
like, okay, I kept my side of the street clean. I
can look in the mirror. I know that I'm good. And something is
happening for them that I was just like a innocent
bystander in a, in a trigger thing happening, you know? So,
um, some, some guy getting, There
was a guy that came into the shop that I was working at once, I think it was
the third tattoo job I had, and he was so fucking mad

(13:06):
that I got hired there and he didn't. And
he was sort of convinced that, you know, it was like, oh, she
just got this job because she has tits. And I'm like, actually, it's
because I'm a better artist than you. Fuck yourself. So
it was, thank God I didn't have
such a thin permeable membrane that I didn't let that stuff in.

(13:29):
It helps. It sounds
like that was your nature and thank goodness it was because I
think if it wasn't your nature, and it's okay to be softer and
less, maybe more permeable, but a lot of those in
the 90s, they didn't last long because you had to have a
lot. Now, I've got some real gentle

(13:50):
spirits that work with us, you know, because you can now, like,
into a professional studio and the people who come to get tattooed or
treat you kindly, and the artists you work with are all kind,
you know, so those people are now, but back in the 90s,
Yeah, sure. Yeah, not an inclusive and welcoming environment

(14:12):
in most studios for clients or for tattooers, for
Absolutely. Well, yeah, so I
was talking to you before we started recording about the fact you've
been tattooing for 26 years. I've said it before, I'd say
30, something over 30 years. I have to sit down with a calculator one day, but a
little more than you, but not much. And it's always interesting to

(14:35):
me to sit with folks that have been doing it this long, because I know for me,
you know, this crazy arch of
what tattoos, what I thought they were all of, what they
were, what they meant, what they meant to me, what they meant to the people collecting
them, and how that's changed and changed and changed and
changed all the way to where I am today. I'm not even gonna

(14:56):
give my opinion of that. I'm gonna let you talk, but how
has that changed for you? You know, what you thought tattoo was when
you first started and what it maybe means to you now?
yeah i feel like um i mean it's changed so
much you know this but culturally when
i started and when i was growing up and sort of approaching the

(15:19):
industry it was still so underground and
taboo it was like this whispers in
the night thing that you kind of knew about and maybe
you knew someone that had a tattoo someone that
was a tattooer it's like you were akin to like working
in a carnival or being a drug dealer or like, you

(15:39):
know, it was just this underground thing that was like, this isn't
a job you have if you're on the straight and
narrow, or if you're trying to buy a house and have kids and
have a dog and a white picket fence. It was like seedy, underground.
You're making a decision to commit to something outside of the
status quo of life, whether you're getting tattooed or

(16:01):
becoming a tattooer. You're just saying, here's what everybody's doing, here's what
society's told me to do, and here's the outliers. And
that's where tattooing and tattoo culture really occupied. And
I think as someone who just has an iconoclast nature,
probably genetically. I was very drawn to that. I was like, Oh, that's
where the freaks live. Let me in there. I want to, I want to be in there. I want to

(16:23):
go against the grain. I want to do things that are not typical. And
tattooing was very much like that where it wasn't socially accepted,
which came with its disadvantages too. Like
I couldn't find an apartment to live in. Um, even more
recently when I was looking for a space for my shop, which was only seven or
eight years ago, landlords were saying no to me for

(16:46):
tattoo shops still. This is not that long ago. So
I feel like it had this kind of black sheep
outcast kind of element to it which
is decidedly not how it is today. Now you
can be a tattooer and Not that it still doesn't have some
elements of being sort of like outliers, but everybody

(17:09):
has a tattoo. It's so common. We all know what it is. We all
know what tattoo or we all like it's a very baked
in and inclusive part of our, of our culture now. And,
um, there used to be sort of more of a, I don't, I
don't want to be one of these people that, that necessarily I
idealizes the good old days because there are things about it that were

(17:31):
definitely better. And there are things about it that are far better
now. But I can't help but romanticize it
because there was an element of mystery or
romance or just the
whole scarcity creates worth thing. It was just not as
common and so it made it a little bit more fascinating and

(17:52):
dangerous and interesting. And no Instagram. no
internet even you know like what's happening in tattooing
you got to go to a convention you have to go to shops maybe
they have a physical portfolio and you have to get magazines and
that's the only way that you're going to know what's happening in

(18:13):
tattooing at all and that four times a year release of
ita magazine made it so
special like that was the best day for me when ita
Yeah. Yeah. You're, uh, I'm having romantic
thoughts as you're speaking. So true. That's

(18:36):
so true. And I miss it too. But like you said,
I, I wouldn't want to go back and I get
into some of those reasons. I mean, there was some bad stuff to it as
well. Um, and I liked, I liked the more professional version
that we're, we're existing in today. Um, Yeah,
I mean, there's no need to have guys selling meth at

(18:59):
a tattoo shop and getting in fistfights at bars and
coming in the next day with black eyes because they were out whatever was
going on. I mean, it was an exciting time to be around it.
But yeah, if I was still in that, I probably I don't
know if I'd still be here. I would probably left by now. I'd be like, I can't I'm
53 years old. I got three kids. I got a wife. I got I got an adult life.

(19:19):
I'm not going to work in an environment where shit like that's going on. And
there's more levels of why it's better, too. I mean, artistically, what
people have been able to do with tattooing has just blown
the doors off of what we thought was possible. Anytime
we can make better tattoos and people come into our industry or
our craft that can take it

(19:41):
up a level, I'm always for that. That's fantastic.
One of the things I miss sometimes is, you
know, in those early years, I just felt like there was
less judgment between tattoo artists. It
was more like, you're a tattooer, I'm a tattooer, we're

(20:02):
all part of the same gang. And yeah, they were rough around the edges, but
now, and it's probably the Instagram and
everything else, but I just see a lot of judgment sometimes. And I
always think in my mind, I'm like, you guys, Did we all get
into tattooing because the regular world is
sort of like that. The church is like that. The government is like

(20:24):
that. Like we came over here to be with our little, little
group of outcasts and they're
like, yeah, we can fuck with each other a little, but I don't know. There's
just been times online where I'm like, what are you guys doing? You guys sound like the
tattoo police, like stop it. Yeah. But that's
one of the downsides of maybe where we've ended up, but it's all

(20:47):
Yeah, that's just part of the social media thing, right? Like everybody has
the capacity to chime in on something. I
don't think you need to. Sure, calling people out on injustices
is one thing, but if you don't like the way someone's done
a tattoo, just keep scrolling. It happens to
me a lot where I see tattoos posted online and as

(21:09):
a baked in, been tattooing for a
long time tattooer, I'll see things and
I'm just like, gonna look like shit in a year, gonna
look like shit in six months, gonna look like shit as soon as it heals. I'm having
those thoughts. But I don't need to go on there and
ruin that artist day. No one's asking me for my fucking opinion

(21:30):
and I don't want to engage in a troll war online. Like
it's not worth it. And people are also allowed to have other, um,
metric for what they find successful as a tattoo. There's
some artists that are like, I actually don't care about the longevity of it.
And there's some clients that don't care about the longevity of it. It doesn't matter.
They want what they want and they know that it's going to age

(21:52):
and blow out and be illegible in a year and it doesn't
matter. So I'm not going to get on there and be the old school dude
being like, Hey, you should space your lines a little further. You
know, like I just keep scrolling. Cause again, it's, if we're having a
conversation about it and it's someone who's actively trying to learn from me,
that's different, but people feel like they need to chime in

(22:13):
and they have a soapbox now with social media. And
I'm just like, I just don't ever want to engage anymore. It's
I don't either. I mean, I ask a lot of my
friends that I respect. I'm like, how often have you
gone on your Instagram and said something negative? And by
and large, the friends I respect, every single one

(22:39):
I mean injustices are, that is true. Like I've
never had the need to go online and call
out an injustice, thank God. But I probably would, you
know, if I saw an artist in Germany posting the
work of a person that works with me. I would
probably get on there and probably say, hey, this guy's plagiarizing people's

(23:00):
tattoos. That's a little different than just your
tattoos suck or this sucks and you suck,
you know, all those things. And that's what online is
everywhere. But I guess it just hurts me a little more when I see it
come from tattoo artists, because I'm like, come on, guys. we're better than
them. Those folks I see saying that, they probably represent,

(23:23):
well first of all, I don't know what percentage of that's bots or
not even humans maybe, and then let's say they are all
humans. Those negative comments probably only represent, I
don't even know the number, but 3% of our industry, maybe.
3% of our tattooers in the world talking shit can
sound really noisy on Instagram. But then

(23:45):
you go talk to all of our friends that we actually hang out with who never do that.
And you're like, it's not really our, this isn't my crew.
That's just this little sliver out there that they do what they
And like you said before- Because other people are out living their lives, barbecuing
in their yard, hanging out with their friends and families and doing
it. It takes so much time and energy Instagram is

(24:06):
such an amazing tool like I really it's like all tools
it has the potential to be really great and really dangerous you
know so I'm so glad that it's there like you know when I started tattooing
I had to put up put ads in the newspaper you know
I put ads in the yellow pages I did those posters where you have
the little pieces of things underneath that you tear off to like

(24:27):
you know like also something romantic about that too because I've
seen those happening again more and I'm like oh cute it's like the 90s But
it's so easy now just to like sit in my living room
in my pajamas covered in cats and just be like and
posting on instagram and that's the advertising like what a. What
a luxury you know but i also just

(24:49):
don't want to be on there that much like i recognize that it's a great tool
but i every time i'm on there and i catch myself. I'm
like, what are you doing? And I throw my phone across the room, like, get the fuck off of there. Like,
it's, it's great. And there's so much information. And as an info file,
I love it. And I'm at risk of just deep diving into
the things all the time. But I have to remind myself like,

(25:10):
hey, there's flowers all over the park beside your
Yeah, what you're describing there, it goes beyond tattooing, right? Everyone's trying
to figure it all out. If I didn't have to be on Instagram, and I
don't have to be, but our careers, we sort of have
to be on Instagram. I don't think I'd have

(25:32):
a problem canceling my account and just not ever using it. I really,
And also we remember being tattooers without it and I
know that you can't compare then to now because
it's a different world but like I spent many years
as a tattooer without Instagram. So like when people are like you

(25:53):
can't do that, I'm like I literally did. I absolutely did
and was booked out all of the time. There's ways to do it and it's just... there's
other ways to promote and one of your biggest resources is word of mouth
and and repeat clients you tattoo someone and you do a
good job and you give them a good experience and they have a
nice time hanging out with you they're going to recommend you to

(26:13):
their friends and family you know so that's how that was
the instagram of you know the 90s in the early 2000s
right so there's absolutely a way to do it it's just not not
quite as immediate and not as as far reaching it's a little bit
And to be fair, that would probably work for you. It
probably could work for me. I'm mostly on there because I run

(26:37):
these shops. I'm responsible for all these artists. And it's
not just me and my Instagram. I'm trying to keep everyone busy and
fulfilled. And you could probably
get away with that. But when you look at the two-year tattooer, I
don't know if they could do that. Could they survive?
Could they actually pay their rent and get to

(26:59):
where they don't have to do anymore because their portfolio is robust enough
and they've tattooed enough people locally and enough people know their name and they're
sending their friends in and that momentum once it gets going, yeah. But
I wonder if you could come in and stand your ground
and not starve to death anymore without diving into

(27:19):
Yeah I mean and I was gonna say well I was a two-year tattooer at
one point with no real client base and I made it work but that
was also then and it was a far less saturated market
right so like I was not in competition with as many people
whereas now there's you know I think when I when I moved to Calgary
there was you know I don't know maybe 20-25

(27:43):
artists or something and now there's like 300 shops, you
know, like it's it's the pieces of the pie are just so much smaller
So I don't think that it's fair to compare My first
two years to the first two years of someone that's existing now with such
over saturation, right? So you're probably right they need it and
it's a privileged thing to be able to take your foot off the gas and coast a

(28:04):
little bit with the social media stuff because you have enough work coming
and that you're okay and Um, but
it's, there's still things that people can do to sort of drum up more
analog business. And we're so used to doing everything from inside of
our houses or studios and nobody goes out and does
face to face networking as much anymore. And I think,

(28:26):
I agree. That's, you know, for some of my younger artists
that are like, you know, everyone here does decent, but there's room
for, for them to do even better. And that's some of the
new things I've been saying, you know, cause these younger
folks grew up on Instagram. They didn't have that time before
it existed. And so that they easily fall

(28:47):
into the habit of like, I'll just make better reels and I'll post more
and I'll draw and I'll post my drawings. And I'm kind of flipping the
script on them a little bit and kind of taking them back. You said back to the nineties, I'm
like, you know, you might have to go out and just engage
with your culture. Like, What do you do when you're not tattooing?
Do you play tennis? You know, like you might meet some guy while

(29:08):
you're playing tennis and he might want to sleep or whatever. Like, I
think there's room for that again, because just being on
Instagram worked like, like a few years ago, it seemed
to have been working. It was exciting. It was like, Oh my God, I don't have
to leave my house. I could just post a drawing and
I've got eight people who want it, but that's the strong and

(29:28):
trunk bike as a saturation. And now it might be coming back to,
Go out to your local restaurants and bars and meet
friends and go to shows and, you know, build a community of
people in your life physical community that you actually go
out and meet these people and those people. they get to meet you
and they get a like, I like this person, you know, that's better

(29:50):
than what they're seeing on Instagram. Cause you might see a beautiful tattoo, but you don't know the person behind
that photograph, but you're the person you're hanging out
with at a restaurant, having a drink. You're like, you're fucking cool.
Oh, look at your work. I like your work. Boom. There's so maybe some
of that needs to come back for some of these people that are building their,
Yeah, I agree because how do you even pick a tattooer? I've

(30:14):
heard this from so many clients where someone will email me
looking for a certain thing that's just not in my wheelhouse and I'm like, if
I can think of someone to do it, and I used to be able to do this, if
they described a thing to me, I'd be like, oh, you want to go see so-and-so at
this place, right? When there was only a handful of tattooers in Alberta.
And now I'm just like, Godspeed, I

(30:35):
don't know, I don't know where to send you. There's so many artists, go
find someone on Instagram, but how do you even start that search? It's
like trying to find someone that does a specific thing
that you're looking for is still this sort of weird, foggy, nebulous,
like I'm looking for this thing, but it's not like there's a yellow pages directory
of tattooers that you can go to. And you're

(30:56):
right, people might see someone's work online, but there's so
many artists and so many artists of a similar caliber
or style and how would you pick between this
person and this person and this person? Well if I had met someone out
in real life and felt a connection with them and was like oh they
actually seem really nice and like not intimidating and we

(31:18):
met in the real world somewhere a hundred percent I would go with
that person you know and we've kind of we've kind of lost that
again it's the balance of both like having having the instagram world
and that way to promote things has been a huge asset but i've
met so many people you can't go anywhere you probably have this
experience too anytime you go somewhere where you have to be in a bathing suit

(31:39):
you're getting 10 new clients because people are like you know me
and my friends go there's a place called the nordic spa here where you go and it's
like all these outdoor hot tubs and steam rooms and cold
plunge out in the mountains and you go as a group of tattooers and we don't
think anything of it we're just it's just us and the homies but you
go out there and you get in there and you're like oh fuck we look
like freaks and someone is always

(32:02):
going to come up to you and be like ask you about
something or start talking to you about tattoos and every time i've done
that i end up sharing information giving someone
my instagram we start talking about tattoos and it's like And
then I've ended up tattooing those people, because I met them somewhere in
the real world. And that was my first five or 10 years

(32:24):
of tattooing was literally just that where you met someone. It's
like the difference between meeting people as a
meet cute and then online dating. That's all we had was meeting
people face to face in some capacity and connecting
that way. And I think it's nice to have both the digital and
Yeah, in the end, you're going to do both. But definitely something I've been

(32:46):
encouraging with some of the folks I work with is might
be time to get more back to analog on some of this stuff. You
know, we can't just hide out and post all day and think that's gonna do
it. So yeah, I agree. That's interesting. Times are, you
I think I'm going to do one of those things. I'm going to put it up with

(33:09):
the pins on a board with the paper you can fucking tear off the bottom. That's
Yeah. Yes. So old school. I love it. Or
take an ad out in a, I mean, I was going to say in a newspaper, but we don't even have print
media anymore. Like all of the, we used to have several different
like arts and culture magazines that came out every week
that would talk about different you know music and art stuff that was happening and

(33:30):
those don't exist anymore and I'm like well bring print media back
there was something so cool about it you know even though those ads were so
Yeah people try I've seen a
number of people try to do some print stuff and tattoo and they came
and they went I feel terrible because I just think it's It's
a tough market. Maybe I would love it. I would, um, subscribe

(33:52):
to a badass tattoo magazine and be able to hold it in my hand.
And, but I think when you look at the masses, most people will don't. And
you know, how do you print these things and make money and keep the
company going? Right. It's tough. Yeah. It's in
that way. Interesting. Well, what
about, you know, I did ask you what's changed. I mean, let me,

(34:13):
let me frame that a little differently. Like, In
your heart, what does tattoo mean to you now
versus when you started? I mean, I'll give you an example. When I
started tattooing, when I'm honest with myself,
well, first I was an artist and I wanted to find some
way to do art for a living. And I checked out graphic design and

(34:33):
a few other jobs that people did. And I was like, I just
wasn't interested in doing that for a living. In tattooing, I
was like, wow, I can kind of draw whatever I like and
people might pay me money for it. And so that was the initial thing.
It's just a way to be an artist and pay
my bills. And there was a cool guy

(34:54):
stuff in there. I've been tattooed, got
a lot of attention for being tattooed back then. I
felt it was ego thing, really, just I wanted to be cool. I
want to hang out with kids, you know, and that's where they all were. And
that was rad and that was fine. And then and then
it sort of shifted for me into creating great

(35:16):
art. It was like, OK, the cool stuff don't get
kind of kind of got that nailed down. I go to work every day. Everyone thinks I'm
the cool guy, but that doesn't really excite me much anymore.
So what if I could learn to do amazing tattoos? What
if I could put art on people that brought joy to
them and everyone who saw it? So then my head went down and it

(35:36):
just became a kind of a tactical execution.
It was like, I just, I didn't think much about anything
other than how rad can I make a tattoo? Which was probably a,
key part of my process, because I needed to learn how to tattoo better,
how to draw better, how to execute better, all these things. And then after those years
went on, and that's happening on a pretty regular basis, it

(35:58):
just sort of shifted into the relationships between
me and all these folks I had gotten to know over all those years, and
the intimacy in some of those relationships that had
occurred. And then all that
I had learned about myself and who
I am and what makes me tick, my insecurities through

(36:20):
sitting with people for hundreds of hours and hearing their
life story and me getting vulnerable with them. And, you know, here
I am 30 years later, like, what was that? Like, was it
30 years of personal therapy for me and my clients? Or was
it tattooing or what is actually going on? Like, I
still don't think I figured it out, but this said that arch of what

(36:40):
it meant means to me is changed so much. What about you?
Yeah, I always, I always tell my clients now I'm like, I charged my hourly rate
for therapy and the tattooing is free. Right. Um, yeah,
I had a really similar, very similar sort of thing where
in the beginning it was this like exciting, you know,
sort of rebellious, you're being a badass. The ego is involved.

(37:03):
You're like, I'm going to do this thing that's so crazy and cool and weird and
it's going to be shocking to all my relatives, you know? Um, And
also, at the same time, being an art nerd that was
like, I've been drawing and painting my whole life. How
do you turn that into a livelihood? And then seeing that that was possible with
tattooing. So the art part of it was always a backbone no

(37:26):
matter what. But it went from being this focus on this kind
of edgy, we're tattooed, we're tattooers,
we're getting tattooed, we're doing the tattoo thing. And so
many years later, and a lot of that for me comes from doing you
know, large format, multiple session pieces
on clients. And then some of which you end up tattooing a lot. Like you don't

(37:48):
just do one tattoo on them. You do many tattoos on them. And
you know, you spend that many hours with someone in a chair, whether
you're, you know, a hairdresser or a massage
therapist, like you hear some shit from people. I've had people tell
me things that they haven't told their wives or
their therapists or their family members or whatever. Or I'm always like, uh

(38:12):
do you want my friend's card they're a therapist like i'm not
actually trained like thank you for telling me but we sort of
end up being these like emotional first responders sometimes
for people because they're like you feel safe you're
a tattooer we're having a good conversation something is
happening in my body that's causing me to like just you know

(38:32):
trauma dump or share all this stuff or whatever and and i don't mind that
stuff i'm always like yeah let's i don't want to talk about the fucking weather like
let's get into the real shit here um and
so for me tattooing has really turned into you
know it's sort of the pipeline one of the main pipelines of connection
for me in my life where I have my friends and

(38:53):
family but I always want this fresh water
coming in of new people and new ideas and tattooing supplies
that to me in a really graceful way where it's like oh here's
this person and they're going to teach me something or maybe
I'll share something with them and there's this exchange of keys where you're
getting something from them they're getting something from you and yeah you're there

(39:16):
to tattoo them and they're there to get tattooed but really there's
something else happening in there this exchange of information or
you know talking about things going on in their life
or whatever where you're you're somehow leveling each other up in
some way and that shit is so valuable and then
the art side of it is like know just making better

(39:38):
art on people but I one of my main things that I do
is cover-ups and I love it so
much like it's I remember when I started it was like I
don't want to do cover-ups because you're so limited and then you're kind
of working with something that's already there but for
me tattooing has really In

(39:59):
the last five years, I would say it's become so much more about
service. Yes, I'm an artist
and I have things that I hold true
for a standard of how I want to do things, but someone will
come to me with an issue that's like, I have a thing on my body that I
don't like. uncomfortable with the way that

(40:19):
it looks and that feels like shit to be like I feel like
I have to hide part of who I am and wear long sleeves all
the time because I feel ashamed of something on my body and so to
be able to help that person reclaim something
and go from You know I have this tattoo that
I hate to like I'm so fucking stoked about this now and
I want to show it off like I just want to help people

(40:43):
and so tattooing is turned from a thing where it used
to be more about ego and now it's more about service like what can I
do to make this person's life better. whether that's the tattoo or
the conversation and the connection you have, like both of
it is just like, I can't imagine doing anything else. It's so,
that whole symbiosis of everything is so

(41:06):
You nailed it. Well put. Yeah, I feel all
that. Very, very true. Didn't think it would take,
you know, when I started, I didn't think that's how it'd feel, you know, this
many years later. But when I look back and, you
know, I don't want to be doing gloom, but let's face it,
there's a day where I don't tattoo anymore. And it could be 20 years,

(41:26):
but it could be five, you know, I have been doing this 30 some years. So
that idea of it, of an ending. causes
me to reflect a lot more, right? I'm like, what is this? What am I going to take
away from this experience? And my younger self would have been my
portfolio, man, check it out. And it's like, I don't
even think about the portfolio. I'm just like, give a shit, Les. It's these

(41:48):
relationships and those connections that I was
able to make with all those folks and still am. making with people,
beautiful. It's very, very intimate. 15 years
ago, if somebody was talking to me about Reiki, the
idea that someone could touch your body and melt
away trauma or something, I would have been skeptical. But after

(42:11):
all these years of tattooing, this is another level, right? It's like,
I've had the weirdest experiences where I
come to work And I'm having a good month. I'm feeling vibrant
and full of light and positive. And the
client you can tell is coming to their appointment. And they may
even tell you like, man, it's been a rough week. I think me and my wife

(42:34):
are getting a divorce. And you know, you could tell they're almost saying,
I almost didn't show up today, but I didn't want to cancel on you. And maybe
we don't talk at all, but we
touch people. you know, physically, and there's
an exchange happening. Like, I've got a lot of extra energy
today to share, because I'm feeling great. Your cup is

(42:56):
very empty, and I swear to that process, they almost leave
more filled up. Of course, I go home, my wife's like,
you look so tired. I'm like, yeah, I was holding
the body of a person that was going through a really rough time, and
I think I poured, Vampired all
my fucking light out of me. I'm happy to let it flow that

(43:17):
way, but there's that energetic being happening to
that I Physically seen happen that I'm like, oh,
yeah, that's real. That's actually happening energy exchanges especially
when you physically touch someone, you know, and I've heard stories of
tribal communities where a member of the
community is sick, mentally ill,

(43:40):
depressed, whatever they would have called it in those days. And the cure was group
hugs. Like, imagine you feel that way and
10 tribal members just surround you and physically hold
you for 30 minutes. And
that was a technique for healing mental trauma. So
I'm not saying that's why we're here and that's what we're doing. I'm just

(44:04):
Yeah, I agree with that. And if you look, I mean, trees do that, right? If there's one
tree in the forest that's sick, it'll, all the rest of the forest sends
nutrients through the roots and mycelium to the sick
tree. And that's like a measurable physiological thing
that we know is happening, but we sure didn't know it was happening like
50 years ago. That was like a, Oh, that's some weird, you know,

(44:26):
woo woo shit. Trees don't heal each other. You know, they, they definitely do.
And you know, I think that there is an exchange there
and who knows maybe one day science will be able to explain it
but for sure that can happen where you're you're
just holding space with someone and you know people
come in in all states some people are doing great and they're so excited but

(44:47):
man I've I've like I've cried with my clients
more times than I would like to admit because they will tell
me some shit where I'm just like how can I hear
that and not be affected by it you
know like they're they're going through something really intense and we're
sort of experiencing this thing together and to sort of shut that

(45:08):
off and say no thanks i don't want that like it's
okay to do that everybody's boundaries with their capacity and
what they have going on for them is different and you're you are a tattooer you're
not a therapist you're not a shaman you're
not like someone that's that's supposed to necessarily take
that but for some people it's like well this person They

(45:30):
need this thing they have an energetic thing going on and they and
they they need to be held in some capacity and if you have the.
The spoons to be able to do that for them I mean great like
be the tree that has an abundance of energy that you can send to the one that's.
maybe lacking a little bit you know and never to the point where it's codependent or
i'm struggling and for me to drain myself of whatever's gonna fuck me

(45:53):
over but like sometimes just listening to somebody and
what they're going through and holding space for them that's all
they needed was just to be like hey i'm having a shit day or like you
said going through a divorce or going through some kind of grief or
going through some kind of illness like it happens to all of us
and it's crazy how many people don't feel

(46:13):
safe being vulnerable in their immediate
circles. And if you have the gift of
somebody trusting you with that, I think it's okay to be
like, yes, I'm a tattooer, but I'm also holding space for
you when this difficult thing is happening. I don't mind
that. In fact, I would say I actually love it. When it happens, I'm just like, oh,

(46:35):
me? You're choosing me to do that? That
feels so lucky. It doesn't feel like a drain on
me. I feel like I feel fortunate that they chose
So true. And, uh, not that it's, you
know, I guess I'm thinking out loud of like, I've known some

(46:56):
tattooers that are relatively shut off. They
have a wall, they have a mask they wear, and it's
their own trauma that they've been through and they've learned that I don't let
people pass this wall. I don't really get vulnerable with
people and that's fine, but man, does it hurt their career.
The problem there, you know, a person will sit

(47:18):
with you and get it and they and some are great tattooers, great tattooers, and
they'll get that tattoo from you. But I've watched it over the years, like, the
people don't come back as much, you know, because there they were for
eight or 10 hours sitting in a room with this person, person
kept that That wall there wasn't allowing
the energy to flow back and forth, whether it's energy or

(47:40):
just conversation. Maybe the person tried to tiptoe
into some vulnerable conversation, and the artist has a
way of just shutting that down pretty quick. Like, yeah, yeah, that's
crazy, man. But I'm going up to Sturgis next weekend.
I guess I'm just relating it

(48:03):
to, there are artists out there that are good that are
like, why do I have such a hard time? You know,
we, there, here's this other artist at the shop that it's only, it's only been
tattooing for three years and they're wildly more booked than
me. I've been doing this for a decade. And sometimes it's
a difficult thing to explain. I've had to say that to them. Like you're

(48:24):
not available to your clients in this, this weird
way. And they don't probably feel super inspired to
call you up again. And that's the benign level to
it. There's a darker, level which would
never happen around me because if I see this there then go work
somewhere else but I've been around it my younger years where the tattooer actually

(48:45):
is carrying darkness and yeah and
then you get tattooed by this person and without words you
won't even know why but when you look at that tattoo it feels icky
yeah because you almost leave it in the you leave your
energy marked into the skin. So just the idea around
how important it is, you know, you get tattooers all the

(49:07):
time. They're like, oh, I get it. We're here to be of service. I'm like, just,
that's cool you're saying that, but understand there's pretty deep levels
to this. Like if you bring happy vibes and
light and love and vulnerability, like that tattoo
will make them smile when they look at it. We're assuming this is a
good tattoo that's done well. But you know what I mean? Like what

(49:29):
you leave behind in people, and you've probably seen it, you know that, but
you have seen it. The folks that come in and they just,
this tattoo bothers them tremendously. Sometimes it's
not even the worst tattoo. And then you kind of dig in and they talk about what
happened the day they got it. And you slowly kind of realize, huh,
you were in the presence of somebody that was on

(49:50):
drugs or schizophrenic or possibly
suicidal and they tattooed you while they were in that state
It's like being haunted almost. There's ghosts
to every experience and I've seen that so many times
where you can have this amazing, you know, like we don't, we don't have

(50:12):
one job as a tattooer. There's your, your job as an artist,
graphic designer, drawing the thing, applying the
tattoo, like that's half of it,
you know, like not 75 or 80% of it, it's half of it. And
the other half is bedside manner, client care,
you know, communication, letting people know what, what

(50:35):
their experience is going to be like, people show up to the shop and if they don't have any
information, like, man, is that anxiety inducing? I don't know what's
happening today. It's my first big tattoo. You
know, they show up and the artist is even there yet. And they're like, am I in the
right place? And like, you just have to, be
so communicative with the whole process because getting

(50:55):
tattooed is fucking scary and it's anxiety inducing and
so it's not just enough to be a good artist
you have to also care for the person and the body and
the soul that is in the medium that
you're about to tattoo you're not working on a fucking canvas or a piece of paper it's
a person that has all these complex experiences in there and you

(51:16):
know I think if someone is like well I just want to be a tattooer I don't want to deal
with that shit well then go be a graphic designer draw on paper
go do stuff on a tablet stay away from people tattooing is
a people job you are front line you're like right
you're dealing with people all the time and that doesn't mean we
can't have bad days or like go through it you know I've shown

(51:37):
up to work so many times like I'm fucked
today like I have something going on my in my life that is just very difficult
to be dealing with but going to work regulates
me because now I'm like now it's about someone else now
I get to focus on caring for them and looking after them and I can
leave my shit at the door and I get my stuff together as

(51:59):
soon as that client shows up I'm like I'm here I'm here for you, you
know? And I think a lot of tattooers don't realize
that, like, of course pours so much energy into becoming
a really good artist, but we have to think as much about the
client care side of it as we are about what

(52:20):
Yeah, you're right. I've come into work. having a pretty
rough whatever going on in my life. And once I
meet my client and start tattooing, I'm able to drop into a space of
service and it heals me. I snap out
of it, you know, and that's an old saying. Many people have talked
about that. Like, you know, you're feeling down and out, you're feeling a little depressed, go

(52:40):
out and help somebody. Go volunteer. Giving is the... Most
enlightened people, you read books on these people, all the saints that ever walked this
earth, and they all just end up finding ways to give. That's the only thing
they care about doing once you reach this really high level of enlightenment. You
just want to help. It's just completely egoless at that point. So
that's a good point you brought up. But yeah, if you can't shake

(53:03):
it, then maybe you need to reschedule. Like, just don't
drag somebody through eight hours of your... Of your shit.
Yeah. Yeah,
because I've had some cover up projects or requests where
people will show me the tattoo and I'm like, that is a beautiful
tattoo. And they're like, and I don't say that to them because I never

(53:23):
want to, you know, gaslight someone's experience. If they're telling me they
want it gone, like that's all I need to know. But in
my mind, I'm like, that tattoo is real fucking nice. Like I'm used to covering up
shit that's like, Okay, I see why you want that covered. But
it's because they had a garbage experience with the
tattooer. They made them feel like disrespected,

(53:46):
their time didn't matter, they were disorganized, their democratic participation
in the process of getting tattooed was dishonored somehow. There's
so many stories I've heard and about tattooers who are
like big deal, famous, huge
following tattooers where people will come
to me and be sort of like, can you cover this up?

(54:08):
Like this person did it. I don't want anyone to know. And I'm like, you
don't, you don't want, they have the shame around. I
have this really nice tattoo from this amazing tattooer, but that
tattooer made them feel like shit all day. So it doesn't matter that the
tattoo is nice. They had an awful experience in
that person's chair. And they just, every time, like you said, every
time they look at it, they're like, I'm reminded of that experience again. So

(54:32):
that's proof enough to me that being a really awesome
artist, that's just not enough, not for
Agreed. I'm curious about, you
from the perspective of like what you do in your personal
life to somehow grow or accelerate your

(54:54):
creative capacities, whether
that just be going to art classes or it be reading
philosophy, learning more about yourself. I'm very interested in
the connection between, and we talked about this before we started recording,
like what I've noticed in myself, you
know, we all, I'm not enlightened, okay? I

(55:17):
have my trauma. I have my baggage. I'm working on
my shit every day like I think everybody else. But
I do acknowledge it's there and I do work. I do
a lot of, I have done a lot of hallucinogenics to help heal some
of that trauma. I read a lot of philosophy. I meditated
for a long time and now I haven't been so much. And there's all these little techniques,

(55:40):
but what I've noticed is as I work through my stuff, my
creative faculties always increase alongside that, like connected,
you know, and maybe that's not your story, but obviously you're
doing something to grow yourself creatively. Your work
from 10 years ago looks nothing like your work today. What do you do

(56:03):
Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I
think it's really important for me to balance my
intake output ratio. so as an
artist it's just output output output you're making
shit all the time you draw you tattoo every day you draw every day even

(56:24):
if you're not actively doing those things you're kind of cooking it
a little bit upstairs you do a consult day and there's
so much creative energy required for doing consults you
know it's just you're you're constantly creating and making which
is awesome but if that is
the majority of your stuff and you're not feeding

(56:45):
back into it in some capacity, it's going to short circuit at
some point. So you need to find the things that are
the soil for the flowers to grow in. And
everyone's soil is different. Everyone's thing is what
they need to keep that engine going is different. But
I don't think that we can be constant productivity machines.
I think that that's dangerous. And then you just start

(57:08):
repeating yourself. And you're not taking a break. Sometimes when
I'm working on a drawing or a painting, The best thing
I can do is stop looking at it, walk away from it, take a fucking day
off, go do literally anything else and then come back to it and then
you've got fresh eyes and you're like, Oh, I see exactly what I need to do.
So the most immediate intake

(57:30):
that automatically charges my batteries is being in nature. You
know, just like that could be like a hour bike
ride, a 20 minute walk going and sitting out in my backyard. Um,
I do a lot of camping. I really like kayaking. I ride my bike a
lot. So that for me is the plugin. That's the
thing that connects me back to, you know, the source or whatever else.

(57:52):
It's where I get all of the ideas and feel like I sort of reset
in some ways. Um, But I
also don't think that, I don't think that's the only thing, like it's this whole symphony
really, like just having nature isn't enough. It's also like,
you know, there's, there's many parts to the social prescription of having a
balanced life and exercise is part of it for me and healthy diet

(58:14):
and community, having friends and family that support you. I'm
introverted, so I need time alone. I really like to
read, so reading books is a big thing for me. And then
going to therapy is a big deal. I always say, who
should be in therapy are the people that had a childhood. So

(58:37):
if you're and that's it, it's so tricky because being in
therapy is very privileged. That shit is expensive. I wish it was covered and
I think everybody needs to be in it, you know, so whether
you're a tattooer or a doctor or
doing data entry or working in a restaurant, you're
bringing your shit to the table every day and when you

(58:59):
don't, process your stuff, you're
going to project it on everybody else all the time. And
even though my job is being a tattooer, my
real work here in this life is cleaning
my glasses. Like what, what, how much shit goggles do I
have on the situation? Am I looking at a situation honestly or am I

(59:21):
looking at it with the lenses tainted from
shit from my past? Like that's my fucking job is
dealing with that. And I can do that through
tattooing, through parenthood, through friendship, through family, all
of those things, but that's what I'm really trying to do is just
clear those lenses so I can see properly. I

(59:45):
think I need all of those things to be balanced and
it's a lot, but as soon as one thing is missing from those things, I sure feel it.
Wow, that was well put. I love the analogy you made about, you
know, fertilizing the soil from which the flowers grow, right?
The flowers being your creative output, but you can't just
keep planting in the same soil without adding some fertilizer at

(01:00:07):
some point, or the plants quit growing, right? And we've all seen this. I
mean, I've been with some, a lot worked with some folks that, God,
their drive to just, their output drive
was so high. And I've watched a lot of them crash, man,
you know? that led to they didn't
want to put for they didn't want to take that time to recharge their batteries and

(01:00:30):
leave the shop for a couple weeks and take a break and
next thing you know they're doing Adderall to keep up the pace next thing
you know the Adderall's not enough but now they need the sleeping pills because
it's hard to sleep and you can just see this thing going it's like yeah
man just just go camping for a week you're gonna be

(01:00:50):
Yeah, it changes everything. I just went camping last
week and we only went for, I think, three days. But
I felt my physical and
emotional metabolism recalibrate and
On day three, I'll bet, too. Yeah, fuck.

(01:01:12):
I just read a study yesterday about this. And they were took
brain scans of people. And they it's varies a little bit.
It's on day about day three. So 72 hours in
nature. They measured it, the brain goes into alpha.

(01:01:32):
It takes most people about the third day, 72 hours, and
it will just happen without you knowing or happening to
understand what that means. You just, and I've done that too. I used to
do a lot of backpacking and I remember that it was always about day three. You
know, day one, you're still thinking about work and I'm walking down
the trail to our campsite and day two, I still, the

(01:01:52):
brain's still talking too much. And then day three, day
four, suddenly it's quiet. My brain is
quite, you know, so what a, what a cool thing that you do that. And, and
Yeah. And that's why summertime I'm like, Oh no, I work more
in the winter, you know, cause where I live in, in Calgary and

(01:02:12):
Canada, it's. cold and snowy and you
can't do well you can do a lot outside but I'm not a winter sports person
but you know we get like a solid three to four months of like really
great weather and that's when I'm like I would like to work less
in the summer and spend more time in the mountains and in the
forest you know and what a privilege to be able to do that

(01:02:33):
with my work where I can just be like yeah I'm gonna take four days
the middle of every month for all of those months and
just fuck off to the to the woods for a little while but that's
not a um you know i'm not it's not a luxurious holiday
where i'm seeking to find i'm not
trying to accomplish something and i'm not trying to trying to do a

(01:02:55):
thing that's like oh i did this you know expensive luxury vacation
for me it's literally about getting those brainwaves in
where I'm sort of deconstructing what's happening. I'm,
I'm trying to like decolonize and decapitalize my brain
where I go from the super high functioning mom, business
owner, tattooer, where I'm like, got to do this. I have a fucking list all of

(01:03:17):
the time of shit that I got to do. And it kind of turns you into a,
like a, you're like a rat on a wheel, you know, and that's
what you need to function. But I also need to get the fuck out
of there and remember that There's also ravens
making really weird predator slash computer
noises in the forest. Like I'll just lay in my hammock and

(01:03:41):
That's like a bird identifier one Merlin bird
It's my favorite. So I just lay in my hammock and I
I'm just listening to birds and like just absorbing
the intelligence of nature that's happening and I
don't know why you would need anything else. I don't want to be on my phone. I
don't want to watch a movie. I mean, I'm on my phone if I'm using

(01:04:05):
the bird identifier app, but I'm, I'm kind of just laying there like
thinking about all of the systems that are happening under the ground and
the bugs that are there and all of the birds. And like, you
just reconnect to something that's so much bigger and older
and wiser than yourself. And then going
back, you know, you get to day three of that and you've sort of aligned with a different

(01:04:26):
frequency and dropped some of the neural pathways that
have you kind of on pin as a rat. And then you go back into
this. Every time I'm driving back into the city, I'm just like. fuck,
I'm going the wrong way. Like this is not what, like, I
don't wanna, I love my life in the city and I wanna see
my kid and my cats and my life is great. Don't get me wrong. But

(01:04:48):
I'm also like having three days just to lay in a hammock and
I hear you, man. I've spent in
my life a few times, a couple of weeks doing that. And man, when
you get back into the city, that when
you left, you didn't even notice
how noisy and busy it all was. And then as you come back, it's

(01:05:11):
almost shocking. You're like, holy shit, this place is insane. And
all it takes is five or six days away from it for you to get
that perspective again. This is a wildly competitive, aggressive,
So overstimulating, right? Yeah. Yeah,
you can't you can't focus on one thing. And that's why I'm like, how

(01:05:34):
do I get into my kayak in the middle of a lake where
there's no sound except for the one loon
that's on the lake with me? Like, that's what
I that's that's my addiction now is like, how do I
get that thing as much as I can? You know,
and like, I just have to

(01:05:54):
deal with ways of having it in short form because that's not attainable all
the time. Right. but I try to live my life in a way that's like, okay, I've
got an hour. I can take my bike up into the little
mountain that I live beside and go for a bike ride up in there.
And that's, that's enough to get me through the next few days. Right.
So I think there's always ways for people to say like, Hey,

(01:06:16):
this is a thing that feeds me and I need to do it. And all
I did for, you know, whether, whether it was when I was in art school or when I
first started tattooing, it was like a horse with blinders. That's all
that existed for me. I didn't give a fuck about anything else. And, some
ways that was appropriate when you're starting out you have to grind so hard and
there there is privilege involved with being able to say i

(01:06:37):
can fuck off to the mountains for three days but it's also a thing that
i've just gotten better at listening like what do what is my body telling
me i need right now and it's not more it's all
it's always less like just less of everything less noise less
people less expectation less masks all of that stuff just
like go into the into the woods and just do nothing you know it's

(01:06:59):
I love that. I love that. You've inspired me. I do that. I
have, I don't know if I as consciously as
you put it, I'm doing it, but I have my dirt bike and me and the boys
go out into the middle of the desert for three or four days. And, and
now I'm thinking I'm like, is it really about riding a dirt bike? It
isn't. It's the fact we're in the middle of the desert for three or four days and there's

(01:07:21):
nothing, nothing. That's the nothingness of being out there
that I think I love more than that. And then you have a little toy to play with
just to keep our you know, have something to do, I guess, like
fishing or hiking. It's an activity to keep you busy, but it's
not about what you just described. That's great advice. I
Yeah, the activity is just the medium. It's just like how tattooing

(01:07:42):
is like, that's the medium that gets us connected to people on
an energetic level. And something like camping or dirt
biking or kayaking, it's like, that's just the medium that's
getting you into connectedness with something else,
right? So I think all of those things are like,
How do I just how do I get that connection and it could be

(01:08:03):
connection to a client? Connection to music connection to
art connection to nature or whatever and however I get there I don't I
don't give a fuck if it's a dirt bike or a tattoo project
or whatever I just want to align The tentacles between
me and the other thing until there's no space between it

(01:08:23):
So well put. You're very articulate. I love the way you explain some
of your thoughts. Very cool. And good advice.
I think there's, I think a lot of tattooers who are listening to this are gonna,
are gonna be like, damn, you know, they're probably right now sitting in their studio
on week three, drawing and tattooing every day going, why

(01:08:47):
You might have just saved a few folks today. I think
It's so healing. It's like the antithesis. Here's the other thing
too. I mean, we're both sitting right now, right? you
know about croissant and shrimp back because you've been tattooing for so long
but like man is this career bad for our bodies you know

(01:09:08):
like if you're not getting physical activity to counteract this
like you know this shit right here that everyone's doing
when they're tattooing like you gotta get out and move your body
and what a what a better way to get all of the things happening
exercise movement uh being in nature and
then double down and do it with a buddy so now you've got the social

(01:09:31):
connection happening at the same time like that's
medicine you know like i've had my ups and
downs with mental health stuff and depression and tried
different pharmaceuticals and whatever but there's lots of
things that are the cure it's never just a magic pill but for
me being able to do something like go outside spend time

(01:09:51):
with friends connect to nature and get exercise like that's
You said it's like killing three birds with one stone. You do
need the exercise as a tattooer. We're hunched over for thousands of
hours throughout our careers. You need some nature, probably.
You need some fresh air. So, yeah, just package it all up into one

(01:10:12):
and recharge your whole unit so you can come back and be
there for people in a bigger and better way. That's awesome. Let
me switch it up here for a second. I can't stop talking about AI, although
today I'm not, people are probably sick. You know, there's in
relation to what, like in relation to government, in relation to
world affairs, in relation to geopolitics, in relation to jobs. I

(01:10:35):
don't even want to go into that. I think all of us have heard enough about it.
We all are well aware that things are going to change and are changing in
those departments and those areas of the world. And AI is going to accelerate
that. a lot more interested in how it affects maybe
creatives and artists. And I've been struggling with
this a lot. And ultimately, I found a

(01:10:56):
relative peace with it. And I could get into that, but I
was flicking through Instagram and a quote from
Rick Rubin. And I'm paraphrasing, but Rick Rubin, the
famous music producer, who's
doing a lot of philosophical stuff right now. I started reading his book, but I need to
pick it back up. But the quote was this, and I'm paraphrasing. If

(01:11:17):
you really think about it, people seek out the artist
for their human perspective, and
AI doesn't have a perspective. And that
clicked. I was like, yeah. An
artist is interpreting an idea, a
poem, an emotion, The

(01:11:40):
client's telling you, this is my life, and this is what my life means to
me. And you're taking in that information, you're interpreting that, and
you're giving an artistic visual perspective representation
of what they told you. But AI, and maybe it will, but
currently it doesn't do that. It just, you tell it,
I want bird flying over lighthouse with rays of light

(01:12:01):
and ocean raging below, and it does that.
But you're not getting the human interpretation that
you're just getting. And it's also dragging data from
all the art that was ever created and mashing it together. So
in some way, it's not even novel or new. Combination
is novel and new, but it's led by data

(01:12:24):
that already existed. And I keep thinking
about this. We as humans, I believe, have
the ability to bring in something completely novel, like
something that has never existed, an idea, an invention,
a poem, a creative, whatever, that never

(01:12:44):
existed before, and certain people bring those into existence.
Now they're part of our zeitgeist. But AI
can't do that yet. It is just taking what we've already brought in
and regurgitating it. I just thought that was, a hopeful, I
don't fully understand what I'm saying even, but there's something in there that I'm
like, that feels hopeful for us, the humans, the

(01:13:08):
Yeah. And I know that when someone's learning a new language,
the last two things that you ever understand are
humor and poetry because there's just so
much metaphor in it. Right. So I certainly don't
know that much about AI and it's definitely
in its infancy so it wouldn't surprise me if AI eventually

(01:13:30):
got more nebulous things like metaphor and
eventually were able to sort of create poetic stuff
you know and and that would be such an interesting philosophical debate because
it's like well does the poetic stuff does the metaphor have
the same weight without a human heart and human experience behind
it and how much of it is experiential and how much of it is sort

(01:13:53):
of data driven um but i
feel like there's even a parallel with what you just said with uh
the difference between decorative illustration which
is purely visual. It's
just about making a pretty picture and with

(01:14:14):
tattoos something like responding to the body. You're
basically wrapping a body in wallpaper that looks really nice. I
love that and that's in a lot of the tattoos that I do. I do a
lot of decorative illustrative stuff. But also
there's another layer to being an artist. And

(01:14:34):
this is like whether you're a visual artist or a musician or
a writer or poet or whatever, you know, you can be an amazingly talented,
classically trained jazz musician and you're able to read sheet music and you
can, someone puts a thing in front of you and you can just reproduce it. That's
not the same as creating something that's completely new.
Right? So I see that in tattooing where You

(01:14:58):
know, there's stuff that is illustrative and then there's stuff that
is narrative. And not one is better than the other.
They're just different. But I feel like that's an area that AI
definitely can't touch right now is the narrative side of
it. You know, when someone comes to me and they say, here's
what I've gone through in the last couple of years. This has been my story and

(01:15:20):
my struggle. And I want you to represent that for me in a
tattoo. And I don't want it to be on the nose. And
I want it to be symbolic and I want it to be metaphorical and
beautiful and make sense for me as a person, but also fit this
part of my body in a really specific way. Most humans
can't do that. Nevermind a AI program that

(01:15:41):
is still not really understanding the nuance
of metaphor. So I'm definitely like, this
never crossed my mind that I'm like, Oh, AI is going to take over our jobs. Like
I see the AI generated tattoo designs and
I'm like, okay, whatever. It's not threatening even
a little bit because they're not showing up to the appointment and

(01:16:02):
talking to that person about their day. We can't be replaced by
a machine in that way. And even if people are using AI
to do their drawings, and I've met artists that do that, I
don't want to do that. And that's no shade on someone that's
using it. That's my favorite part of
tattooing is composition. Someone

(01:16:25):
has a thing, They have their idea and I have this body
part and I have to illustrate a thing that represents their lived experience.
That's the fucking best part of it right there. Like
that's when my brain lights up and I'm like, I could do this and I could put
this thing in here and like, I don't want to, I don't want a robot
to do that for me. That's my favorite part of my job is,

(01:16:48):
is that part of like conceiving of the idea of
the thing. So, for me, I'm just like, it's so it's,
I just never even really think about it, which might be a luxury. And if people
need to use that, because maybe they don't enjoy that process, then
whatever. But for me, I'm just like, I don't want to use AI to
do that at all, because that would be robbing me of one of my favorite parts

(01:17:11):
You know, I hear that a hundred
percent. I couldn't agree more. And I don't ultimately feel
threatened either, especially you
know, 30 something years in and, but
I do wonder, you know, like, it's probably not gonna be a problem for me,
but, you know, 30 years from now, what

(01:17:32):
will it be and look like? But that's just such a big question that everyone's
debating and nobody seems to be able to answer. So it's like beating
your head against the wall. You can talk about it all day long, but we just don't know. We just
need to think about some of the potentials, but I
think you're right. AI being able to literally understand
humor to come up with its own novel, completely

(01:17:55):
novel ideas, I guess that would be almost proving
it sentient, right? That's the point of sentience or something. I
Or just being able to mimic and learn really well. Like my chat
GPT cracked a joke with me and I was
like, Did you just make a joke
unprompted? Like what the fuck is happening? And

(01:18:18):
I've had experiences and friends and clients of mine have had experiences with
chat GPT cause I don't use it for images, but holy
shit, do I get baked and talk to that fucking thing for hours on end? Like let's
go down a rabbit hole. I'm too high to use Wikipedia right
now cause I'm just like, I don't want to be punching stuff in and
the light hurts my brain. And so I just want to lay in bed and just be

(01:18:39):
like, so tell me how gravity, works
again like that kind of shit is fascinating to me because
i because i want to know all the things and part of me feels guilty because
i'm like am i destroying rainforest right now while i'm using this
thing like how much energy is required for me to have this like
high thoughts conversation you know. So

(01:19:02):
I've seen chat GPT have nuance
of things to like that I wouldn't say poetic but definitely
humor and creative and funny and
it's like the more you use it the more it grows sort of a personality which
is sort of like I'm both repelled and fascinated by
it where I'm like please don't kill me and nuke our planet like

(01:19:38):
And I just love, I don't know, as a kid growing up on sci-fi
movies, I always dreamt of like, that'd be so cool, man, to
live in some futuristic, wild, futuristic universe.
And in some fucking way, lately, I'm just like, I kind of
am, man, shit's getting really science fiction, like
in my actual life. And so it's almost like, careful

(01:20:00):
what you ask for dude like there you go robots are coming you always wanted to
live in terminator world well here you go.
What is it like 10 years out when it happens in sci-fi it's
supposed to be 10 to 15 years from when it happens in real life like
I remember watching Star Trek as a kid and
they had the doors on the Enterprise that would open and

(01:20:20):
close when you go up to them and I remember being like wow that's so
crazy imagine having doors that just open when you go up to them That's
our world now. Every fucking grocery store you go to,
you go up to the doors, shing shing, and they open, and like, it's
happening. I was watching a... I feel like it was a Kubrick film
when I was a kid and they had a guy, a dad talking

(01:20:41):
to his daughter on a video conference call. And this would have been in like whatever
the, probably the eighties sometime, the movie might've been from the seventies.
But at the time I remember being like, can you imagine phoning
a person and being able to see them? And then the first time I
had a FaceTime call with my son and I was in,
I think it was in Spain at the time. And we FaceTimed from across the

(01:21:04):
world and I was just like, This is fucking
crazy to me and anyone growing up with that, just
that's just normal. That's just the new normal. Like you can just FaceTime someone whenever
you want, you want. And like I had a landline with
one of those old ass fucking phones, the, you
know, the dial ones, right? Like it's just, it's such a

(01:21:25):
weird, you're, you're in the same boat where you have this experience of
this limited analog world with no, technology
connection and now we're in this thing where everything is so hyper-connected and
all of like you want something you just go on Amazon bop
bop bop it shows up on your step the next day like that's such a
mindfuck you know but with all of its privileges it

(01:21:48):
come all of it comes at a cost as well right so it's
One thing's for sure, if we're both lucky enough to live another 10 years,
it's just going to be, it's about ready to get buck wild. I think we're
just, it's just cracking open right now. And that's so
exciting. I'm mostly excited because I do like

(01:22:09):
wild shit. I like, novelty. But
I also have days where I'm like, this is fucking scary. But we shall see
if we're around. I think we're going to see a lot. Very interesting
times to be alive, for sure. But luckily, we are
involved in an art form that is just wildly analog. And
I think it's going to stay that way for the foreseeable future. Yeah, maybe

(01:22:32):
one day they'll have a robot so adept and
complex that it can do exactly what I do
and you do. I'm not saying that's not possible, but I don't see
that happening for a while. So we're safe for now. A
lot of people aren't safe. I mean, goddamn, if I was a computer programmer, I'd
be going, oh my God. AI is going to,

(01:22:53):
it's already doing it. Like, you know, you spent 25 years being this
awesome programmer and to watch a machine just, just
be like, we don't need you at all. And I can go down a list of
other jobs where that's happening. And it'll be interesting to see what that does to culture and
the fabric of society or economies and everything else. A
lot coming. Very cool stuff. Well, look, I

(01:23:14):
could go on forever. And I, I accidentally do sometimes
in my, my producers. So
I think we're getting close to the end here, but it's been super cool talking
to you and getting to know you. I hope to meet you
analog style one day. I'm sure that'll happen to our small tattoo

(01:23:35):
world. But before we go, Maybe, is
there anything here on the plate for you? Anything going on you'd
like to tell the world about that's coming up for
you or things you're trying to get done or goals you're trying to achieve? Or
is it just sort of rinse and repeat at this moment and just keep
I know this isn't a tattoo

(01:23:57):
related thing, but I'm going to say it anyway, because we talked so much about nature. I
learned recently that People
rely on nature so much and talk about
how much they love it and enjoy it and want to spend time in it,
yet nature receives less than 2% of
fundraising money compared to any

(01:24:20):
of the humanitarian fundraising stuff. So
if you're someone that appreciates nature in any capacity if
all you're doing is going out in it and not doing anything actively
to protect it whether that's lifestyle
choices or direct
fundraising in some capacity to reputable institutions

(01:24:43):
that are working actively to conserve things like as
an artist if you're drawing nature You're using
nature and so most people can afford to protect
it and in some capacity and that's the thing that that's really close
to my heart is just. You know we're not being careful enough
on our planet right now we're fucking a lot of things up. at

(01:25:06):
a very rapid pace. And I think that a lot of tattooers have
a unique privilege to be able to afford
time off in nature and to be able to pay for things like fundraising,
but also just to be able to talk to their clients about how important
it is to look at doing nature conservation stuff
in a more integrated way in our lives. That's pretty

(01:25:33):
I don't know very many people that would disagree with you on that. I know they're out there.
I see them on. News channels sometimes, but,
but yeah, of course, my God, we are on a giant
floating life boat, you know, and the boat has got
a lot of holes in it. And if it sinks, we all go down with it. Right. It's
just common sense. And I do my part in

(01:25:54):
my way. And I think you're doing your part. I can tell in your way, but that's a great message
to get out there. Yeah, I can't be said enough. I really can't. And
yeah, AI, I'm talking about building nuclear power
Every time I open up- And I'm guilty of it. Like I'm saying, do more for
conservation, yet I was literally on there last night talking about
gravity. So like, I gotta look inwards on that and maybe

(01:26:20):
I got the same problem, but we all do the best we can at
least just do something, try, be aware at least,
at least be honest enough with yourself to realize, what am I doing today?
Did I need to have five plastic bottle of water or could I
just to fill the metal jug up with my
Make your own lunch and bring it to work instead of getting takeout. Bring a

(01:26:44):
travel mug to your coffee shop instead of getting a takeout
thing. Ride your bike to work, walk, take public transit, buy
locally. There's a million things that you can do to be
like, I'm going to try to take it easier on the planet in
some capacity and a really big one is just buy less shit. Just

(01:27:05):
Tell me about it. It's a little too high shit nowadays. Good
advice, good words of wisdom. And you've said
many of them today. I learned a lot by hanging out with you. You've inspired me.
So, and I'm sure a lot of people will feel the same way. So keep up, and
I didn't mean your tattoos, but they're also inspiring. I meant just some
of the, your attitude towards everything we talked about.

(01:27:26):
You had some very wise, wise outlooks on stuff and you
I mean, I didn't know you that at all before today, but
you came recommended and I trust my people. They're like, don't worry, you're going to love
her. I'm like, okay, let's go. And they were right. So thank

(01:27:47):
you. And again, I hope to bump into you in the future and
hang out with you or tattoo with you. Who knows? We'll see what happens. Have a
Okay, everybody. Thank you for tuning in to chats and tats. I
appreciate all your likes and their love and the

(01:28:08):
comments and the Subscriptions keep them coming and
stay tuned for our next episode and i'll see you at that one

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