Breaking Down the Ego: Tattooing as a Journey of Self-Discovery ft. Jesse Rix

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
You have to show people what's possible. If you don't do that, they're
not going to know. Once I did that, people just started coming to me and
wanting what I did. So then it was it was an opportunity for
me to just keep developing it and keep, you know, perfecting it and trying.
I'm still just trying to Because now I'm at a point where
people see what I've done and they just want that. And

(00:20):
I'm trying to push them into some other stuff. And they're like, no, I just want the other
shit, you know? I'm like, oh. It never ends. Yeah. So I'm trying to,
you know, get back into just showing people what's possible. Shits
I'm feeling something in my spirit. Chats

(00:51):
Hello, my earthly neighbors, my meat
suits wrapped around bright, beautiful balls of light.
Welcome back to Chats and Tats with me, your host, Aaron Della Vadova. You know,
I don't say that kind of arbitrarily. I don't know if you guys know,
but I've smoked DMT a few times and every
time I turn into this ball of light, I have

(01:12):
no body. I have 360 degree vision. I'm
communicating to let telepathically with beings
that are made of white light i mean is that evidence
of a soul. Feels like it do i know no
anyone tells you they do now be cautious cuz i don't think
anyone's got that fucking shit figured out. But I do look at

(01:34):
humans that way. When I look at people, I just try to remind myself that
is a beautiful soul shoved into this reality,
trying to figure it out just like me. And from that place, uh, I
find higher levels of compassion and patience and empathy. And I think that's
a good, good thing to practice in this world of hate speech and
arguments and political takeovers and

(01:57):
government assassinations and, Wow it's just like
i guess the folks are out there doing this shit don't see other humans like
i see them because once you see it that way you don't want to hurt anybody just
want to help people out make some art have some laughs start
a family just do loving things but i'm on a
tangent All right, let me get more focused here. So today we're

(02:18):
having our tattoo episode. I am fortunate enough
and honored to have this gentleman with me today. I saw his work,
I'm guessing 10 years ago, this crazy chess
pieces, three, I guess he would call his work 3d
geometric tattoos. And a lot of you are familiar with geometric, but this is different. If
any of you are familiar with like mcs sure i kinda like that like

(02:41):
it's it's like an optical illusion it's like he takes the
body any does are in a way where it looks like the bodies breaking
away into fractals in the beneath that fractals is an image or
mandala or whatever, it's really difficult to put in words you
definitely gotta check it out it's some of the dopest work out there very talented
guy doing amazing tattoos so he's more than

(03:01):
that easy father is a husband. He's
a 22-year tattoo artist, so he's been around. We're gonna
talk about all that. So, with all that being said, please welcome my guest today,
Jesse Ricks. How you doing? Good, buddy, good. He's all
Okay. But you said you had your house in Maine. Well, I just got some land

(03:26):
It's all New England. You're not gonna worry about those little state lines and
city lines. But that is a different world from... That's
the opposite side of the country. I'm down here at the bottom left, and
you're at the top right. Well, hey, a
tremendous amount of respect for your lifestyle. I don't know you that well, but I know enough
to see that you live out in the woods in a beautiful cabin with nature all around you.

(03:47):
You commute in to do rad tattoos on people and you go back to
this sovereign kingdom you've created for yourself. And
I'll just say right now, I'm jealous. I don't have that. I live in the urban
empire. Everywhere I go, traffic, cars, people, jets,
noise. But it is what it is. But respect, dude. That's

(04:07):
But that you know we're gonna get into all kinds of stuff but i think i'd like to kick things
off with just you know like i was saying earlier we're all born these
little empty empty in the way of ego or just this.
Consciousness right you look at any two year old i don't know that tree
or flower i just see something they want to touch. I have a
name for it yet they don't know their own name and then the world

(04:28):
starts teaching you language and in that process a lot
of weird things happen. I guess don mcgill ruiz who's
been or where is junior who's been on the show would call it domestication so
we start deciding what we are. You know i'm i'm
a strong macho man i'm an artist time of this time
of that we label ourselves and it's totally fine we

(04:50):
have the ego is there to help us function i mean you're not gonna be able to
go to work and pay your taxes and, and stop at a red light without an
ego so just like a hammer you know when to get a hammer when
you need a hammer to build a house you get a hammer but you
try to use a hammer to be a good father well
not the right tool. But in this whole thing at

(05:10):
some point you decided that you're an artist. When
did that happen for you or was it one moment or was it just this kind
Yeah, I think it's like a lot of different moments that build up to
it but I mean, I've been drawing since I was little, since
I was five but yeah, just always into
art, always trying to figure out like why things look the way they do, breaking

(05:32):
it down like you know, if you see a sunset, trying to figure out
like what is that color? Like why is it making that color? Why
is it casting light this way? But yeah, I mean, over time, for
me, it was just kind of like a little bit
of an escape, I guess. Like I was always doodling in school.
I was never great with academics and

(05:53):
stuff. Great or not interested? Yeah, not interested. Yeah.
Better way to put it. I mean, I would retain everything they were
saying, but I was just drawing. You could have been good
at math and history. You just weren't interested. Same for me. Yeah.
And then of course, You know, as I mean, back
then, that was I graduated 2001. So

(06:14):
tell my guidance counselor I wanted to tattoo. You
know, they just laughed and said, That's not a real job. Do graphic design. That's
I was told the same thing. Yeah. I almost did it. And then I met some graphic
Yeah. It wasn't what I wanted to do. Like, yeah. And yeah, you always hear
the starving artist stuff. And just, uh, at one point, you

(06:37):
know, I was just doing construction for a while and then I just decided, well,
if I'm not going to tattoo or do my art, then I'm
just going to do it for fun. And then that fun just became, you
Followed your heart. Yeah. Followed your instincts. Yeah. And it developed. And
so that's the, that's you becoming an artist. And then when does tattoo

(06:57):
So I learned the wrong way. I bought a kit, started
tattooing friends and everything. I always wanted to tattoo since
I was, well, when I was 15, I tattooed my leg. I made a
little homemade tattoo machine. That was before you could even look stuff
up on the internet and how to, how to build this stuff. So I just built this little jail
house. machine and tattooed my leg. And I
saw some tattoo magazines back then and

(07:21):
seeing the art in it, I realized that, you know, this was art.
This wasn't just, you know, what everybody said, like just slapping
something on somebody. Like I was actually seeing really good artwork
from really good artists. And, you
know, in my mind, I figured, well, if they were doing it, like there's got to be something
to it. So yeah, that kind of got me on the path to

(07:42):
tattooing. And I think tattooing made me a better artist. I
don't know if I would have fully been into art if it wasn't
for tattooing. I think tattooing, with it being a
craft and a career and a job, something that you can control, you
can, you know, I like the entrepreneurial aspect of it.
I like the customer service and like, so I was always drawn to that too. And

(08:05):
a lot more where i can confidently do my own art and
progress without the fear of the job or the money
thing you know but also yeah i i just agree with
you and one i'm a better artist because a tattoo because when
it becomes your job you got to get up and do it every day yeah you know when it's a hobby you
skip a lot of days yeah but when you're a tattooer you do and then that

(08:26):
repetition it develops you Yeah. I want to thank Sullen,
my sponsor. If you guys love tattoo art and you
love cool apparel, check out sullenclothing.com. Amazing
human beings that own that company who also take care of people, you
know, good business owners that give a shit about the people that work with
them and collaborate with them. If you're an artist who would like to see their

(08:47):
art on one of those T-shirts, send it over to their website. They
got all of it on there. Send it over. They'd love to check it out. If you do something you love,
It's, it's work. Like, you know, people say, if you do what you
love, it's not, you never work a day in your life. Uh, you
know, I think if you do what you love, you work harder than anybody else will
add that. Um, because you obsess about it and you just, yeah.

(09:08):
Yeah. I guess that this is like a word thing right
now, because I would say if you love what you
do, I don't know if work is the word. Like work
to me always meant going to do something you didn't want to do because you
needed money to pay your rent. That to me is work. Yeah, but
when you do what I do what you do, it's different. It's I
wouldn't call it work, but I wouldn't call it easy No, it's it's

(09:31):
a lot of effort. It's a lot of focus It's a lot of sacrifice just
like work, but it definitely almost needs its own word, you
know, but whatever I mean semantics, right? Yeah,
we're lucky right? Oh my god. I think the tattoo gods
every day. I don't know what I'd be doing if I didn't do this It would
probably wouldn't win so well Well, that's cool. So you're just,

(09:52):
okay, this is like the slow evolution style of
you entering the scene. I mean, did you ever end up in a formal apprenticeship
or working around other tattooers to figure out needle? I mean, back then
Yeah. So I tried to apprentice, you know, back then in New
England, like it was, it was hard. There weren't a lot of shops. I mean, there

(10:13):
weren't a lot of shops anyway, but. You know, I tried going into a few shops.
They were the biker old school biker shops. Mm hmm. My
first experience was in this
little I mean, it's probably the size of this room, total
the whole shop. And, you know, he was into drugs and his
drug dealers would show up and steal shit out of the shop. And like, I'd

(10:34):
be like, Yep. Go ahead, go take it. You know, I'm not
getting in the way. So, you know, there was a lot of experiences like that going
to the biker clubhouses and tattooing, you know, tattoo
parties that were mandatory and stuff. And for
me, that was just it was it wasn't what I wanted to get into. Like, I
liked the relationships I build with my clients and

(10:54):
I liked the art. I didn't like the whole party lifestyle
and like, you know, So that was never really what it was about for me.
And that seemed to be what it was about for everybody else that I was working
under. So I didn't really do a formal apprenticeship. I tried to work for
a couple shops. And then one of the artists that I used
to work with, he got licensed and we opened up my shop back

(11:15):
in 2005. And this is actually kind of a full circle moment
for me because I remember seeing your shop on some
of the magazines and I loved your studio, like how
it looked. It looked different than other tattoo studios. It
was professional. It was being like more of a just a
cool place to be. And that's what I strived for with my

(11:37):
Thank you. Oh, that's a huge compliment. Well same
for me i did not want to shop i didn't want to be a business man
i did it because i couldn't find anywhere to work where there wasn't.
Weird shit going on and finally it's like i don't choice like
ok i'll just have to open my own place and try to eradicate
these behaviors and even then it wasn't easy cuz. You

(12:01):
know, I, I don't know. I, I went through a lot of, uh, different tattooers that came
and went because they still wanted to roll the old way. And I'm like,
we're not doing it that way. And they didn't understand it. Yeah.
They, maybe they did understand it, but they weren't interested in it.
I don't know. I can say today after 21 years with
guru, um, they're all gone. We have a big, big

(12:22):
family of tattooers here, 20 something tattooers that are all Artists,
they don't want to deal drugs on the side and they don't get all out to
the bar and beat people up at night. You know, they're just here to do art.
A little easier to get that done nowadays. That's kind of the majority of
Yeah. Yeah. It's so different. So different. Yeah. You have
people going to school, art school and graduating and becoming tattoo

(12:44):
artists. Yeah. Yeah. Which is good. I mean, I think that's where we
wanted the industry to go. I mean, at least for me, like
I always saw it as art. So I wanted to get away from those
stigmas and those kind of seedy areas
and try to, you know, push it into more of an artistic
Well, you've certainly done that. Like I was saying earlier in my introduction, your

(13:07):
art, your tattooing is wildly unique. I kind
of want to talk about that. You know, so many young artists say
to me, you know, they're so concerned about finding their style, like they're
going to make that happen. And I'm always like, it's not
really how it works. You just do what turns you on
and eventually you look back one day and there's your style, you

(13:27):
know? So but with you, is that similar? I mean, you have such a
unique style. I mean, how did you develop that? What were your interests? I
mean, this geometric 3D thing.
Yeah. You know, you know who. I loved M.C. Escher as a kid in
high school and everything. I always picked up that book and I was always trying to figure out
because his stuff seems really simple on the surface. It looks, you

(13:50):
know, looks pretty easy or like, but it's as
you break it down, you realize how complicated it is. For
me, it was just, I was, you know, going into the
tattoo industry, like we opened up and we became a
custom only studio. So we were drawing everything out
for everybody and it was a very customer service based. thing. And

(14:11):
in my mind, I was just trying to do my best with whatever
people brought in. They just brought stuff in. And I'm like, here's what
I would do with it and try to imagine it. But I always had the
things that I wanted to do and never felt like I had the opportunity to
do that, which is why I moved to the private studio was
to focus on my own stuff. And yeah, it

(14:32):
just kind of happened naturally. You know, I
think for me it was just getting rid of those blocks. Like once I got rid
of the block of here's what the customer wants,
because I was so trained to trying to figure out what the
customer wanted and get to what their end
result was. I threw that away and just wanted to get to my end

(14:52):
result. I wanted to do what I wanted to do. And the first one I
did was on a friend of mine. So he had no excuse not
to get it. Yeah. It was funny because when I designed it, it
was the very first 3D chess piece I did with the
cubes and space behind it. He just wanted space and
geometry. And he's like, yeah, I just want, you know, he was picturing like
glowing stuff. And I designed it how I thought he

(15:15):
wanted it. And then I threw it out and did my
own thing. And he came in. He's like, yeah, I like the space. He's like, I
don't know about the cubes. Like you're getting the cubes. I
mean, it was just like, yeah, my adrenaline was going when I was designing it.
It just felt like. You tapped in. Yeah. This
This is what I have to put out there to the world. Yeah. And like they

(15:36):
say, build it and they will come. Yeah. You know, and that's the thing I also see
with a lot of young tattooers that are upset after eight years that
they're still doing what the customer wants. And I'm like, well, That's
on you. I mean, you got to take that day off. And
if you think you have some great idea for a new way of tattooing, let's
Yeah. Build it. You have to do the work. You have to, like, do what the customers want.

(15:58):
But then, yeah, you have to make the time for yourself. And nobody's going to pay you
to do that. And nobody's going to ask you to do it. You have to show people what's
possible. And if you don't do that, they're not going to know. Once I did that, people
So then it was, it was an opportunity for me to just keep developing it
and keep, you know, perfecting it and trying. I'm still just trying to,

(16:19):
cause now I'm in a, I'm at a point where people see what
I've done and they just want that. And I'm trying to push them into some other stuff.
And they're like, no, I just want the other shit, you know? I'm like,
Oh, it never ends. Yeah. So I'm trying to, you know, get back
You know, I look at your work and I'm like, is this guy
doing psychedelics? I've never, I've never tripped

(16:43):
Cause your work is trippy. It looks like the work of a tripper. I
think the most I've done is a microdosing and
just you know, smoking weed. But yeah, I have I have a lot of clients that
do. But I think that's the cool thing, too, about your art. When
you do things that speak to you, you attract the
people that are like minded. So all my clients, we have a

(17:04):
lot of the same philosophies, a lot of the same ideas. And it's
just really cool to interact with my clients for as long
as I get to, you know, eight to 10 hour days
with the same person over and over again. Like you really get to know people. And
I like bouncing those those ideas of ego
and, you know, self and who you are. And

(17:25):
that was the whole point was, you know, we wear wear ourselves
on the outside and then we break them away and, you know, kind
of become the everything like the collective consciousness. So. That
That is, that's what your stuff looks like. It's like you create this optical
illusion of the body breaking away. In your case,

(17:46):
a lot of geometric shapes, cubes, octagons. And
then as the body starts to break away, behind
Yeah. Yeah. And that's why sometimes I'll you know, we'll put like the
old tattoos in the pieces that are getting broken away
because that's that's your sense of self. That's your story, you know? And

(18:07):
sometimes we'll add we'll add traditional tattoos or we'll add stuff to
Very cool, very cool. So on that note, philosophy,
the idea I was talking about earlier, what's your belief? You
look around at this world, and I had
someone tell me recently, because I'm constantly talking about the nature of reality and

(18:28):
consciousness, and they're like, why do you do that so often? And
I'm like, well, I just think it's the most interesting thing happening. I'm interested
in novelty. I mean, I don't know how the fuck you
get out of bed every day and don't just every once in a while be like, whoa. Where
am I? What is all this? What do you think it
I don't know. I think at some point we just have to accept it and

(18:50):
have fun because we're here, you know? So like, I
go through these little moments where it's like these little existential crises
where I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm just like... yeah
like what the hell we're just floating around like why like why are
we even but just the fact that we're here it's amazing i
mean i don't think it's an accident i don't think we're just random shit

(19:12):
floating around in space like you know i think we do have purpose and
we have Connection I think when you strip away the ego and
all that stuff you kind of get to the the real Fundamentals and
I think a lot of you know a lot of religions kind of speak to the same Stuff
like the fundamentals are all the same treat people nice like don't
be an asshole treat people how you want to be treated Not that hard. I

(19:35):
think fundamentally we all have that baked into us. We all know
right from wrong. We all know kind of deep down that we're
here for a reason, but I don't know if it's up to us to figure
out why. Because I was trying to figure it out for years.
For me, it's kind of a depressing thing sometimes. thinking
about if it isn't meaningful or if it, you know, so

(19:56):
I stopped kind of worrying about the end and
just focusing on here right now, because I think it's
a gift. The fact that we're even here, everything had to fall into place
for us to be here right now and just be alive. It's
I like the way you put that, the why. And I was thinking as you were talking, Yeah,
I used to really focus on why and what I realized after

(20:19):
hundreds of books and a bunch of fucking hallucinogenics and
all these different things that I was no closer to understanding why. Yeah.
But I do feel closer to understanding what this all is. And I
don't fully understand that either, but I have seen with
my own inner eye this dimension
and I kind of saw what it is and it's something where

(20:42):
we're all it's one big field of energy that
we're viewing from our individual ego bodies
right so I get to I think it's one big thing one
big living entity the whole universe and I get to look at
it from Aaron's eyes yeah And that's the big entity's way
of enjoying itself. Like, what else would you do if you were everything?

(21:04):
You'd want to break yourself into a bunch of little pieces that could go play
around inside of you and see itself and experiment with
itself and be creative and see what else it can
make, you know? I think that's what is going on.
Why? Don't know. Where it came from?
Who knows? But you're right, spending too much time on those

(21:25):
two, the where and the why, it can drive you a little bit
And then you just miss out on the it. Because that's the
why I think is that that's why we're here is to experience it. And
if you're not focused on experiencing it and
having fun, and that's why, like, yeah, it's important
to make your customers happy and and all that. But it's also important to

(21:51):
You don't have that much time. It goes quick and there's
a voice inside of you for a reason. It's trying to tell you what
Courage because life, this world we live in, it's scary. You
know, when you look out there, there's gangsters and wars and
Criminals and dishonest people that want to take advantage of

(22:12):
you. So it's very easy to back away from your destiny for
safety It's one of the biggest problems I have right now in the West is
we become a culture that's addicted to safety You
know, we want some people want censorship. Yeah, they
want to control what others say yeah, because if
we don't they would tell you well those others can hurt us and But

(22:34):
you can't, in my opinion, that's not the path. You've got
to let everyone be whatever they want to be. And there's consequences. If
you want to be a rapist, it's probably going
to catch up to you and things aren't going to go so well. But you've got
to let people Wander off and we have law, you
know, if you're if you're stealing money, you know, it'll catch up to you Yeah, you'll

(22:55):
get caught but this idea of like having 19 different types
of insurance for your house and your cars and health
insurance And I have all those things making people wear helmets when they
ride their motorcycles telling people what they can and can't say This comes
from fear There are people in the world and hey, I'm scared too.
Like I said, this, this life is a scary thing every day. I wonder if

(23:16):
I'm going to be okay and it's my family going to be okay. But in
face of that, I still steer towards freedom regardless of
what comes from that freedom. And I'd say, let everyone do
what they want. The only rule is just don't hurt anyone.
You can do whatever you want as long as it's not hurting. You can even hurt yourself.
But when you hurt other people, well, that's the line and that's it.

(23:38):
You know, I think safety comes from community and community comes
from understanding people. If you're not able to say things, whether
people agree with it or not, then there's no understanding. You can't all be the
same. Like everybody can't have the same opinions. There's a reason why artists
and everybody else push against the grain. It's because even if you don't 100 percent
believe it, just playing devil's advocate, just challenging how people think it matters.

(24:01):
I live in a small town in North Central Massachusetts,
and I always say like my town's pretty cool because it's kind of it's
all like hippies and rednecks But they all get along because we
all just like want to be out in the woods and like you know I mean they
bicker and you know all that stuff, but if it comes down to
it if somebody needs to borrow sugar, or like, somebody gets

(24:22):
a flat, like everybody's there for each other. So there's a sense
of community. And that comes from understanding, even if you don't
fully agree with somebody, you can still, you know, look at
a little, a little bit of their life through their perspective, and have
a little bit of understanding and I think from there that's that's kind

(24:42):
100% and thank god for podcasts. Yeah. I think that's been a game changer
for or the internet in general for this particular issue you're talking about
which is now there's places where people can go and have
conversations where they disagree and it can't well
I want to say it can't be censored but a lot of it is censored. Hell
Elon Musk had to buy Twitter for this reason. And

(25:06):
I don't know if his intentions are pure. A lot
of people say that they aren't, but maybe they are. Maybe
that's what he was trying to do. You can't have a bunch of internet
platforms where only certain people are allowed to have conversations
I think as long as the end result is people
not being censored and being able to have conversations. I mean, I like how

(25:27):
he puts it as like the digital kind of like community center
where everybody can go and voice their opinions. you know, as long as he doesn't censor it
himself or like, you know, I mean, I think people just
can't, if you're not going to censor things, don't censor things at all. Just
let, let people be themselves, but show an environment
where we can do that and not feel like

(25:50):
we're going to be canceled or hurt
or anything based on your beliefs. Cause that's the only way you
So true, dude. It's on my mind a lot. You know, I live
in a nice neighborhood and I live
around a lot of people with very strong political beliefs, both
sides. And I was at a neighborhood party recently and

(26:13):
I started asking them, you know, I know this guy stands for this candidate
and this guy stands for that candidate. They're very, very passionate about it.
And I was like, why don't you have a little sign in your yard? They're like, Oh,
I don't want to do that. Like I was just right there. I'm just like,
that's a problem. That is a fucking problem. When you live in
a supposedly the freest country in the world and you're afraid. Afraid

(26:34):
to talk about. Afraid to just put a sign in your, it says, I'm going to vote this way
because your neighbors might quit talking to you or
worse. Maybe somebody pulls you out of your car and beats you up one day because you
got the wrong bumper sticker on the back of it. That's pretty scary thing
to be happening. And for the folks out there that are for censorship,
Man, please call me up. I am very open minded. I'd

(26:55):
love to have you on the show. I'd love for you to explain to me why
that's important. And I'm willing to have that debate because no
one's been able to do it. And I'm asking all the time, tell me why that
works long term, how that serves the betterment of
humanity to stifle conversations that
Yeah. I think we all have a responsibility to put up the sign and

(27:16):
be a good neighbor. Right. So put up the sign. If
you get backlash, don't retaliate. Don't you know, just just
be a good person. Just help them out when they need it and
show them, you know, it's our responsibility to show people that just
because I believe in this or I look like this
or it's the same with the tattoo industry back, you know, 20 years ago.

(27:37):
Yeah. There are plenty of people that had, you know, full sleeves, neck tattoos that
were just really great people and it
was, you know, kind of your responsibility to show people like, Hey, I'm
not, I'm not what you think I am, you know? And when you took
the time to help somebody or show that
So I think that's important with, yeah, your, your

(28:00):
message to your community and your message to your children and
your message is your actions. But even more than that, it's
your results. I used to, the old saying was, you know, a
man is defined by his actions. And I say, no, no, that isn't. They're
defined by the results because a lot of people can show action
that looks like there's something. Yeah. But when you really see their life after

(28:20):
five years, 10 years, 15 years, the results they're creating don't
reflect the action. Someone can look busy as hell at work and
produce, almost produce nothing. And you can have somebody at work who looks like
he's chilling, but somehow is getting a lot done. So
the results are what your message is. That's what you should judge
anybody by. If somebody wants to tell you marital advice, I

(28:41):
really want to know how long they've been married. And I want to
observe them with their wife, because that's the result of
the words you're telling me. You're sitting here trying to tell me how to have a great
marriage, yet I don't ever see you put your arm around your wife.
You guys don't seem intimate. So I'm not listening to you. You don't seem to
have the result I'm looking for. And you

(29:01):
know, my dad told me that when I was young, if you want to get advice from somebody, make
sure they have the thing you're after, whether it be money or healthy relationships,
because then they have the right to maybe have an opinion about it
because they've done it. But you're right, action and
results is how we send our message to our community. That's
what matters in the end. And that's what

(29:23):
I try to do, you know, what I try to do every day. But yeah, let me switch
gears a little bit. So tattooing, let me ask you this question. What
So, you know, I think the fundamentals are always the same. You
need to have borders, contrast. For me, like
with my tattoos, it's really important for me that
I use the body. So I don't think of a body as

(29:45):
here's a flat spot. Here's where I can put this and it won't distort. I
look for the distorted parts and I want to use those. Those
are opportunities. So for me, I love being
able to use the body as this completely unique medium
that I mean, there's no other medium like it. So to use the body and
have pieces, you know, fit in spots and move and

(30:07):
have and then, you know, contrast, you have to have open skin,
you have to have the room to breathe, like let it has
to be readable. I think all those traditional elements to
tattoos are what makes a tattoo last.
But, you know, we can reimagine those those fundamentals. It
doesn't have to be like everything has an outline. Everything has. I

(30:28):
think as long as it has a border and you're creating that contrast and
you're leaving open skin, that border is the outline. And when those
flesh tones or, you know, yellows or whatever fade,
It's still there even after the little tricks fade away. Yeah.
Yeah, I agree with all that a hundred percent, especially the part about skin,

(30:51):
something I had to grow out of from my early years in
the, in the nineties of tattooing where new
school hit the scene. And suddenly the idea was fill
it all in, man, every inch of it. That's how, that's how you make
a great tattoo. It took me a lot of years to realize your brightest color
is the person's skin. Yeah. So like a painter, you

(31:12):
got to have your brightest color over here and your darks over here. Well, your brightest color
You work backwards from that. I agree. And then the only other thing I
would add is what makes a great tattoo a happy client,
You know, cause there are, how do I say, like I've got some tattoos on me

(31:34):
that I, I did some, I go up to Montana to visit my son. We
ride snowmobiles up to the tops of these mountains and tattoo each other up
there. And they're pretty shitty tattoos, but
they're great tattoos because of the experience that I had,
the bonding that occurred, and they're some of my favorite tattoos.
They're the ones I look at and smile every time I look at one, and that brings back

(31:55):
that memory. So there is this layer to tattooing that goes beyond great
mechanics into this realm of experience, right?
And you seem like the kind of guy who probably gives your clients a pretty good
Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think I attract the clients that I
seem to just click with just because my art speaks to the people that kind

(32:16):
of have the same fundamental beliefs, I
guess, as I do. So I get to, you know, kind of be a part of
that. And yeah, I mean, you could have a great tattoo, but if you have
a bad experience, if your artist doesn't talk to you or you just,
you know, they're a little pretentious or whatever, they're going
to you're never going to look at that tattoo and think like, oh, that that's

(32:37):
awesome because that's a visual reminder all
the time of that conversation that you had or didn't have or that crappy
experience. So and then the other way around, if you have a
tattoo that is awesome and you had an awesome experience or
even if it's, you know, fundamentally good or mediocre
or like even a crappy tattoo, if you had an awesome experience, yeah,

(32:58):
you're always going to look at that. And that's kind of like why I want to keep When I do
the breakaways too, like I have a lot of clients who are like, oh
yeah, you know, you can just cover up this crap. I'm like, well, why, you know, why did
you get that or when did you get it? And they tell me the story. You
know, they always seem to like smile when they talk about it. I'm like, well, don't get rid of
it. You know, like let's make that part of the tattoo. Let's break it into the
new stuff. You know, we're breaking away the old into

(33:21):
the new. That's a whole thing. It's like, you know, we're getting rid of the ego. or
breaking down the ego into the everything. And you can, I
think aesthetically it looks, it looks cool. They get to keep something.
Yeah, that's all true. And that's why tattoo artists
specifically need to be very empathetic, compassionate

(33:42):
people. Because they aren't, you know, like, it's such a
big responsibility. The energy you bring to a tattoo session, if
you bring a shitty attitude, or you're having a horrible day, or
you're feeling super angry, that's a day to not come in for
this job. You know, that's a day you need to take off. There's a
lot of jobs you can go to pissed off all day and
probably still get a lot of work done, get all the insurance paper filled

(34:05):
out or the tax returns done or whatever it is you do. This is
not one of those fields. You got to be on it. I feel
like tattooing helped me to learn to love myself. It made me work on
myself. I had to unwind my trauma and
my problems and my prejudices. I had
to over a lifetime slowly heal all that. And

(34:26):
as I would heal that, I become a different type of person that can provide
a different kind of experience to my clients. It's a
it's an art form of self development like spiritual self
develop strange how that work you know cuz when i was young
that's what i wanted i mean there was a time where i thought i would fly off to the
east somewhere and study with monks or something i just wanted

(34:47):
to unwind me and figure out what i was made of and
why i have my problems and all this stuff and. Tattooing comes
along. And then, that's why I called my shop Guru Tattoo,
because it became the teacher. The act of tattooing, now
you can ignore that, and some tattooers do, they don't work
on themselves at all. They come to their job every day with the

(35:08):
same problem that they had 10 years ago. And that frequency of
energy, you leave that inside somebody's tissue. And
whether it was said out loud or not, it's there and
it can be sensed. And there, that's what you've
just done for somebody. You just left them with a scar, an
emotional scar that you brought to work and then put it in them. You

(35:31):
It's crazy. I think too. Like, I mean, there's
not a lot of careers like this where you can really
get to know people and like every type of person, you know, I
mean, even if you're a therapist, you only get to see people for an hour a week
or an hour a month or whatever. We get to talk to people for hours
and hours and hours and sometimes For years. Yeah,

(35:53):
for a long time. And there's something about tattooing, like
the vulnerability of it, of being a client, you have to give
up a little bit and trust your artist. And when
you do, I think you had it a million times, I'm sure, like
clients that you don't even know yet, and they're just giving
you their whole life story. And I think

(36:13):
we come from a perspective of understanding because we've seen and
talked to so many people that have so many different life experiences. And
that's what we have to give. to them. So like, I think we have something
that we can give even more than, you know, not, I mean, I'm not
a therapist, I didn't go to, you know, school for that.
And the people that do are, you know, obviously way more adapted

(36:35):
to be able to do that than I am. But Maybe. Yeah. But
I mean, I think we come with a different different
understanding of just human nature and people. And I think
it's our our gift as tattoo artists to kind of like give that to
the client, too. If I get an opportunity to help
a client, I love. talking to them and helping them get through things, too,

(36:56):
and kind of becoming friends with. I
feel like all my clients kind of become friends through this process, and
I genuinely care about them. So it's just a really unique experience.
No, I don't think there is. And I've thought hard about that, trying
to find the ones that do. And there might be a few out there maybe

(37:16):
going to war with people. It probably opens up this level of
connection that we get opened up while we tattoo people. But
the real interesting part about what you said is the vulnerability. Say
someone does go to a therapist. It's pretty easy to sit there in
a room, not in pain, and put up your fakeness, right?

(37:37):
You can act. you know, and act a certain way to the therapist, you
know, tell them what they want to hear. But it's just really, really hard for people
to do that when they get tattooed because there is this part of them, the
real, I would say, more, maybe not the entire real part
of them, but you get a lot closer to it when you've been tattooing them for six
hours. Yeah. It's a natural, it just melts away. The

(37:57):
mask that they wear every day, the, the persona, that
they project to the world sort of dissolves, and
you're left with the real person, right? And
so yeah, in that way, it is, I do
feel like if you tattoo as long as we have, you do have
a unique understanding of the human condition beyond most

(38:19):
people, because of all of those intimate moments where
you got to see the real someone, what's really going on. Probably
I mean, because most of us are socially, as artists,
I mean, we become artists because we just, we're not social, you

(38:40):
know, we're not like, we kind of go inwards. And, uh,
I think for me, it, it's kind of been this whole like full circle
thing, you know, it came, came from a world where I, I felt
like I didn't, belong to this, uh, you know,
I didn't fit in with a lot of different groups and everything. So I just went
inwards, worked on my art and then my art was a

(39:00):
representation of me. And then that attracted people
that also felt that way. And then you kind of build a
It's crazy. Yeah. That, that's the coolest part at, you know, after
me, 31 years, when I look back, I like, what was the best part of
this is still the best part of this. It's, it's that what
you just said. And you know, the portfolio is cool. Um,

(39:21):
the joy that some of my tattoos have brought people is super cool, but
this building of a community, there's no way I would have
been able to meet. And just like you, I almost all
of my clients are really good friends. I,
they're all, I have the same cell phone number from 25 years ago. They're all
in there. Yeah. I could text any of them right now and they'd write, you know,
they write me back, you know, so I have thousands of, deep friendships.

(39:46):
Now, do I go to their house for barbecues every weekend? No, but it
doesn't matter. Once you've made that kind of bond with somebody, it's permanent, even
if you don't see him for 10 years. Yeah. What a fucking cool
part of the job, man. That is, I love that part. Yeah. Let
me ask you a little bit about this. A lot of tattooers listen to the show and I'm always
interested to know, you know, guys that tattoo at your level, large format tattooing,

(40:06):
very involved tattooing, What's a typical day like for you? Now,
I think you mentioned earlier, you know, you've been tattooing 22 years. You
like to tattoo three days a week on average. Yeah. And that's
established. And I think that's a pretty darn good schedule for a balanced
life. Yeah. Married, kids. You
still got your art to do on a couple of those days. And you still

(40:26):
probably want to go out with your wife to dinner and play in the
backyard with your kids. So how you tattoo five days a week and get all
that done, I don't know anyone. Yeah. Now, those people
that are usually single, the five and six day a week people, or
they're just fucking crazy, and they just live an unbalanced life.
I ended up where you ended up, and I'm a little less now, but

(40:47):
I'm also a few years ahead of you. So that three day, four day a week
schedule was the number for me. But that's established. So what
about the typical day? When do you
get up? What kind of food do you put in your body? When do you show up? How
does the process of your day of work unfold?
Yeah, so I usually because I only do three

(41:08):
days, I used to do six days and, you
know, 80 hour weeks, just like most of us did. And
yeah, it's just your art suffers. Everything suffers from that. So
it was hard to find that balance. But yeah, I
just I start my designing. Usually I reach out to the client
only a day or two before their appointment. So some

(41:29):
of my clients, you know, that's a little scary. I
don't even know you. Yeah, we don't even talk that much like throughout
the whole process. We have a application process that we started back
in 2013. We started putting people on our email list and
I mean, I remember the first time I opened the books, I was so scared that I was just going
to hear crickets because I closed my books for like a year and I

(41:53):
didn't know anybody that really I knew of one other tattoo artist that just
and he never put anybody on reserve. He just said like, yeah, no
clients, no new clients right now. But anyway, yeah, I got to
the point where I would open the books and we
send out an application. I try to get all the information that we
need. And then I go through them and I pick them. There might be a little bit

(42:13):
of conversation there, but really, there's not much until the
day before their tattoo. And for me, I think it's a
little bit better that way because I noticed for me, if I design
something three months before I tattoo them,
I look at it and I don't want to tattoo it anymore. I want to do something else. I
like that it's more organic and sometimes, you

(42:34):
know, I'll show clients a piece the night before.
We try to lock it in so I can at least stencil it and get started,
you know, usually by 11 to noon
and we can get a good, you know, seven hours, five to seven hours of
tattooing. But yeah, sometimes clients come in and we have a different idea. Like
they come in and we put put the stencil on or we mock it

(42:56):
up and then, you know, we're just like, Oh, what if we did this? And then just
go back to the drawing board and reschedule like. But it ends up
being a way better tattoo. But I'm trying, I'm toying
around with the idea of like 3d scanning clients. I've heard
of people doing that and I'm trying to figure out a way for them to do it
at home. Cause I know there's 3d scanning apps and stuff, but usually, I mean,

(43:16):
I can read the pictures pretty well if clients just
send me the photos, but it would be nice to be able to mock things up a
little bit more. It's harder for the clients. To see it on their body. Yeah. Like
Yeah. Yeah, I do it kind of like you. I just need a picture of the body. It's
a back, just a squared up picture of their back. Yeah. I draw it on

(43:37):
top of the photo in my iPad. And it's
amazing how well stuff fits. Yeah. You know, just just blow
You know, it comes from experience, too, because, you know, you know how it's going
to fit, you know, those like you're not looking at it as a flat surface
and then putting it on and having it do all these weird things because. You've

(43:59):
Oh, he's got a deep V where his spine is. I probably can't have a
woman's face right there. Yeah. That is true. You
learn a lot of that from experience. So your clients don't
Okay. I do a little different. I get it out to them about a week before. Yeah.
Which is good. It's good for

(44:20):
me. They're allowed to get involved at that point, you know, micro
adjustments are made and if I hit a complete wall then that's
okay too, but we're just going to reschedule. Yeah. I needed another
deposit cause I just spent two days drawing this for you and it's what you told me
to draw and you're changing your idea. So as long as you're willing to
give me another deposit, we'll throw that in the trash can and we'll, I'll

(44:42):
see you in a month, you know rarely happens Yeah, because I
ask enough of the right questions to figure out where they're at. But yeah similar
process I think that's a good way to do it. Yeah But you're tattooing
shit, man. See, and again, I'm a little older than you. I'm
53. I've been doing it a little longer, but my number is like five
hours, such six hour is pushing it for me. Yeah.

(45:04):
Ooh, I don't mean that. It gets rough. Like, I mean, I, I used to
do 10 to 15 hour days. More than one client. Well,
I didn't know that that's not what people did because like I
didn't work at any shops when I did the private studio. I
was seeing these half sleeves and full sleeves. And, you
know, I'm thinking like this half sleeve was done in a day. So I just.

(45:27):
Yeah, I would do it in a day and I would do it. And, you know, if it took 16 hours
and that's what it took. And, you know, a lot of times that was 16 hours of tattooing,
12 hours of tattooing. But then I was hand drawing the stencils and that took
another two, three hours. And then, you know, I mean, there were a lot of nights
I wouldn't get home till four in the morning. And now I was going to work for
10, 10 a.m. So yeah, I think a lot of it when

(45:48):
we had my son, I kind of freaked out a
little bit and I just started working. That's kind of always been my
coping mechanism. So anytime I get anxious, depressed, anything,
I just bury myself in work. Now that I'm older, I'm starting
to to find that balance a lot more and enjoy
the process more and just have it kind of sprinkled throughout my

(46:09):
life instead of just, you know, being neurotic about
it. And now I'm trying to do five I average
out like five to seven hours. But yeah, usually that fifth
and sixth hour, that's where I start to to fade. And
then just me and the client both push through to that that
So is there a waiting list? Someone wants to get tattooed by you or

(46:33):
Yeah, we put them on an email list and
I started that, I guess that like 20 2013 and
we sent out the application that way. And we used to just,
I used to just pick the ones, the pieces that I wanted to do. Now we ask people how
many times have they applied before? Because I was getting to the point where I had
some people who applied and we got them within six months and then other people had

(46:56):
been waiting like five years. So we try to do it to where, you
know, if somebody's been applying for a year or
Yeah. Or at least like I'll have a conversation with them. Like if it's not something, if,
if it's a piece that I just keep, you know, maybe they put too much information in
there. Maybe the pictures aren't great or there's something, but they keep applying. Like
obviously they want a piece from me. So I'll, I'll reach out

(47:17):
to them and just kind of tell them like, Hey, here's the issues I have with your
application. And 90% of the time they're like, Oh no, I just
want whatever you want to do. If you have something you want to do, like just, do
that. And, um, yeah, I think, I think asking people that
is, is good. So yeah, I don't have people waiting five, five,
six years or whatever. It's usually, I found most of

(47:39):
my clients, we get them in within like one to three years of,
What do you charge? So I started doing a daily rate,
same thing. This was probably back in, well, this was like 2015. And
the reason why I started doing that is because I didn't want my art

(48:00):
tied to hours. Cause then it seemed like clients were just watching the
clock, you know, they wanted as many hours as they could get. Or
so I, um, yeah, I went to half day, full day rates like
2015 and then I just ditched the half day rate because everybody
tried to, wanted to fit a full day within a half day.
And for me it was just an opportunity cause I, I like to work. longer

(48:21):
days, I want to get a good chunk done. I don't want like, you know, two,
three hours of just getting a little bit of stuff
done, and then having them come back. Like I like feeling like we accomplished something.
So I kind of forced my clients to do the full days at one point. But
yeah, I'm at 3000 a day. Now, I haven't gone
up for probably five years. But it's crazy. I

(48:43):
have artists that I talked to who were amazing artists
and they were still charging 150 bucks an hour, 180 an
hour. And I felt like that was way too low
for what they were putting out there. Um, so I like having the conversation, especially
with like my local artists and in, you know, my
friends and stuff because you know, it just puts it into perspective. But

(49:04):
yeah, I think there are a lot of people that are just charging what
they can because tattooing has become so popular.
And so, you know, we were in this boom for so long that
a lot of people starting out, you know, three, five
years ago, they came into this with like just this
crazy world where, you know, everybody

(49:25):
was busy and, you know, they're charging what I charge. You
know, for me, I feel like when I finish my
day, I look at that and I say, that's a that's
a $3,000 piece, like, and that's kind of my sweet spot. I
like where it is. I've had people tell me I could go up because it's
because I have a waiting list. And, you know, but

(49:47):
for me, I like where I'm at. I feel like it's fair
to the client. They get good value for what they're
Plus, if you go up, and I've had times where
I went up and down just trying to feel out where everybody
was at. And at the time, the times when my rates went Up

(50:09):
i felt like there was a lot of people who i would have loved to
have tattooed but they just couldn't afford me yeah and then i ended up
with these other types of folks started showing up like i
don't know how well very well off people. And
then the vibe from that group was a little bit different. Yeah. You know,
when you got a guy that's willing to come in and just give you 5k for the day, that's

(50:30):
a person that probably does really well financially and
is used to people working for them. Yeah. That there was
a bit of that going on where I'm just like, Oh man, I kind of miss charging
less. And having these people that I feel like they're my bros, you
know, and so, you know, I did, I brought my rates back
down because I just, it wasn't so much about how much money can

(50:51):
I make. It was more about what kind of folks can I get
into my booth and what, you know, what kind of friends can I make along the
way. And a lot of those people, they can't afford $5,000 a
Yeah. It's finding that sweet spot where you can get the clients
you want your, your price at a level where you feel like it's, it's worth
that. Cause I mean your time is worth money and all that, all those years you

(51:14):
put into getting to where you're at. I had an art teacher that
told me that my first art show I was selling little
drawings and stuff for like 50 bucks, 80 bucks. And
she's like, why? Why are you charging only $40 for this piece? And
I told her, well, it only took me like half an hour. She's like, yeah, but it took you
your whole life to learn how to get to this point to where you could draw

(51:36):
that. And I never really put it into perspective until I
had been tattooing for 10 years. And I was like, oh, OK, like, yeah,
this is all those. 3 a.m. Yeah.
Tattoo sessions that I wasn't getting paid for for
all the extra time that I put in to try to figure out, you know, this thing and
same thing like with what you were saying. I've had people offer me, you

(51:58):
know, three times my rate, but I don't want to feel like I work for that
person. Like I've I've had people offer me crazy
amounts of money to have me go out and tattoo them
where they're at. And I don't mind being more accommodating to some clients. But
for me, like, I don't want to feel like somebody owns me
or somebody gets to dictate how like every

(52:20):
aspect of their tattoo, because for me, I like I
like it being more of a collaborative effort. And I like when people
appreciate my art. And I think sometimes you get people who have
a lot of a lot of money who feel like they could just own everything.
And yeah, it's just a different vibe. It's different, you know, atmosphere and
dynamic. And it's just not something that I really want in

(52:44):
Yeah. Agree. A hundred percent agree on that. You got to find that sweet spot. You
touched on it a little bit and I want to tell, I want to go more into this, you know, this
tattoo and what it was in the past, what it
is now and what it might become in the future. And there's a lot of levels of
that. There's the artistic level, there's the financial level, there's um,
social level of this, but let's hear your words around

(53:06):
that. You know, you got in 22 years ago. I
mean, to me, you were getting in at the beginning of the Renaissance basically.
Yeah. Unlimited amount of client. If you're good, unlimited
amount of clients. Um, this idea of not having work
to do wasn't even a fucking, not even on the table. And
you know, you talk about it, but now we're in this new thing that's happening

(53:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's all it's all the same. It's
the same stuff that was happening when I started. So
when I started, you know, I was the new guy doing realism and
all the old school guys were, you know, just scoffing at
it, saying like, Oh, that shit's not going to hold up. And, you know. all
you guys with the rotary machines and like, you know, it was just every

(53:51):
every new advancement was like, like, oh, screw that.
Like, you know, you got that backlash every time it
was for the Numas. I think what I started using
Numas and then the rotaries and then the iPad. And,
you know, I think as long as the art's there, like you have to you have
to adapt. And it's good to be sentimental and it's good to have

(54:13):
those roots and you have to respect those roots. Like and
that's the thing, too, is I came up when I was 22. I opened up my
shop and, you know, these old school guys were telling me, you know,
that this shit doesn't hold up and, you know, kind of just, you
know, bashing on the realism guys. And back then
I was like, Oh, you guys are just old. You don't know what you're talking about. you know, and now

(54:35):
I'm kind of the old guy and I'm seeing it. I'm like, oh shit.
Like this is what they meant. And, uh, I have a lot more respect.
I'm kind of going back to the roots and being like, okay, like this is, this is
important. You know, even those days, like, you know, 2000, like
2001, 2003 to, to now, like, yeah,
it's kind of this crazy time in tattooing where

(54:56):
it went from what it was to what it is now. But I
think you can still stay true to your roots and be
adaptable. You have to be able to accept that the world's changing.
You know, all these kids that are coming into it now, I mean,
this is all they know of tattooing. So you can't blame them for, you
know, using the iPad or using AI or. But I think

(55:19):
it's up to us to usher that in in
a responsible way and show where it was. and
kind of show where it can where it can go and have
that integrity still in the community. So I
think those of us that have been tattooing for a long time, I think it is
a responsibility of us to kind of help guide the

(55:39):
industry in a way where we can accept the technology, but
integrate it in a way that's sustainable and kind of
Not just shit on it. Like there's a difference between just shitting on the
new idea, the new equipment and, and that
versus maybe educating and guiding

(56:01):
a younger tattooer without just coming out the gate. Like what
you're doing is shit. The equipment you use is fucked. Get
out of here, kid. No, it's gotta be more like, let's talk about
it. In doing that, hell, I've changed the
way I tattooed. I've had two-year tattooers change the
way I tattooed, because I was willing to look at it and be like,

(56:21):
why are you doing that? It makes no sense to me. The longer I
looked at it, I was like, huh, I'm gonna do that. You know so yeah
that it's funny to be the tattoo world
you know i really was attracted to becoming a tattooer because of
this freedom aspect that the culture seemed to have it
was a place. Where you could go and not be a part of regular society

(56:43):
and everyone was i thought gonna be more like. do
whatever you want, freedom, you know? And then I got in here and
I'm like, man, these guys are more judgmental than the, you
know, the regular jobs I had, you know, just telling everybody how
to dress and how to behave and what equipment you
should use. And that's stupid. iPads are, are

(57:04):
bullshit. And I'm like, what the fuck, man, you guys are
rule followers. Yeah, I thought I was joining like a cool gang
of dudes that were like not rule followers Yeah, and now
you're telling me your rules and mad at me because I'm not following them. Fuck
that This is strange how that works but i guess that
just human nature right tribalistic you know the problem is
when you make your identity. Part of something right

(57:28):
instead of be able to look in the mirror and just because when i look in the mirror i don't see a
tattoo artist. Yeah i don't i see aaron and
that's a lot of things one little part of me is i'm
a tattoo artist if you took that away i would
be okay. You know, I don't need to be a tattoo artist to
love myself and to accept myself. It's just something that

(57:48):
I do, something that I love, but it's not my identity. But the
problem is when people start making what they do or the
way they live part of their identity, right? Because then you
get into this mindset of, well, then if you aren't living the
way I'm living, that's a threat to my identity. I need
you to stop using that coil machine and you are using that rotary

(58:08):
machine start using a coil machine because the very active you using that rotary
machine is an attack. I'm my personal identity funny
Yeah. Same thing with politics. Like we were saying before, like you or
anything you dig your heels in, you know, religion, those labels,
like you dig in to those labels and this is what we
believe. We only do this. And, you know, you're not open to any

(58:31):
other perspectives. And I think as artists, that's kind of what we
we are put here to do is to go against the grain and challenge perspectives
and gain perspective and just Yeah. Kind of grow. I
think our, our job in society is to like push society forward
into these unknown areas. And I,
I think the people that dig in their heels have a purpose too, because they

(58:54):
bring us up to par, you know, it's up to, to us to kind of
push to this new level. If we were all doing this
and all like trying new things and challenging perspectives,
we'd just be chaos. We'd be all over the place. That's
Yeah, because they set the bar and then it's up to us to bring the bar The only
still only caveat I would add to that is those people need to be kind

(59:17):
all of us should be kind Yeah, that's it. It's in your right an
old-time tattooer has every right to be like I don't think that's the right
way to tattoo This is why but that's much different
than saying you're a fucking kook Yeah, you know and that's where
the that's that's the line for me like there's no reason to be nasty about it
I mean, I'm not a typical tattoo artist and I got a

(59:43):
No, I do have tattoos. A lot of them are covered, but I haven't been, I
haven't been tattooed in like 15 years, pretty much since I started the
private studio. Just like I said, I was doing like 80 hour weeks. I've just been
in my own little bubble in my own world tattooing and
in my little private studio. And now I'm kind of going back
to like, I want to learn. I want to go and take

(01:00:03):
seminars and talk to other artists. I like that there's more
artists. That look like me to out
there the people that are just really in the art and just they're not subscribing
to a tattoo artist label or not making being
a tattoo artist your identity yeah they just happen to like. Art and
i think you're drawn to something and you really feel it like you should be

(01:00:24):
able to do that i had people that i worked with tell me like oh no you gotta wear
all black you gotta you know. get more tattoos, get
piercings and stuff. And I, I do want more tattoos, but just because I'm
a fan of tattoos, like I'm a fan of these artists. For me,
it's hard to pick. Yeah. Like I feel like
I kind of still have all this real estate and I'm like, that's pretty sweet.

(01:00:47):
Cause if, when you do jump back in, start getting some big work, you're going
Well, I didn't at first, so. Yeah, I
was just fortunate enough, I guess, to go in my little bubble
Well, you weren't worried about being accepted by the community, which is, I
respect that because if you would have been worried about that, you would have just gotten

(01:01:12):
I grew up Catholic and you know, going to CCD and
all that stuff. And I didn't like that. Like, cause that was the same thing.
It was people telling me how I should live my life and what I should do
and why other people are wrong. And so when I started tattooing
and then having tattoo artists tell me the same shit, I was like, what? Like,
It's the same thing, you know? So for me, like, yeah, I

(01:01:33):
was just always more true to myself, just trying to be me
That's, that's beautiful. That's what, um, that's, those are the types of
folks I like to work around as well. open-minded, respect
everybody's sovereignty. The rule is simple. If you're not
hurting anybody, I'm cool with you. That's not a very
difficult thing to understand or to practice. Your life

(01:01:57):
and how you live it is not my business until you make it
my business, which if you don't do that, then what do I have to say about that?
On that note, it's funny. I just finished up a new
thing for me. I have a client who, by the way, already has
two sleeves. I already did his whole back piece. He's been getting tattooed
a lot over the years and he called me up and said, I wanna try

(01:02:18):
anesthesia tattooing. And I was like, really? You know, and I definitely was
a little bit like, huh, at first I was like, I don't know about that. You know, I think
it's just the old school part of me that I had to
like look at and ask, why do I feel that way? Why not
try it? It's something new. Maybe you never do it again. Maybe
you do it a lot more, but why not try it? It's not, again, back

(01:02:38):
to the rule. It's not hurting anybody. It's his life. You can do whatever he wants. It's
my tattoo career. I can do what I want. So I pulled together me
and three other tattooers and we were able to execute approximately 34 hours
of tattooing during nine hours while he was under 10. But
I would say we were all needles to skin consistently for nine
hours for people. Yeah. And basically covered him from his shoulders

(01:03:01):
down onto his thighs. It's not completely done. He's coming back in a month. We're
going to wrap up some details. And it was so much fun. I
mean, I would not want to tattoo like that every day because what we talked about earlier,
the relationships, the friendships, the bonding, that is
the most important part. But after this many years of tattooing, to do it this
way was novel and fun. It

(01:03:22):
was so weird tattooing somebody that, you know, we spend
our entire time worrying and thinking about the comfort
of the client. You are well aware as you're dragging that long
line, I just want to finish this line because it's going to be smoother if
I finish it in one swipe. But this is probably driving him
right to the edge of tapping out. But, you know, there's that balance. And

(01:03:43):
then you pull off and you put a cool towel on it and you
hear them breathe a few times and then you get some more ink. And
now you're like, you ready? And you go back in it. This is the rhythm of
tattooing a compassionate tattooer. But it was just so strange after
all these years to just have this person that it didn't matter. Like
you just load up a fifteen mag and get a bunch of ink in

(01:04:03):
there and you have to stop you just kept going and going and going
it was actually a lot more fun than i thought it was gonna
be very cool and of course i was. You know not
so worried because i think this phase of my life i'm at a place where
i'm just like. don't really care what others think anymore i
mean you know but i was like here we go you

(01:04:24):
know as soon as i post this an army of tattooers are
gonna just pounce on me yeah and he was he was heavily tattooed
anyway like you he was a client of yours right yeah i
Yeah, he could do what he wants. Like he's, he's earned the bragging rights. He's already done
it. And you've had conversations with him and stuff. So like, yeah, that's a good

(01:04:46):
Yeah. I agree. A hundred percent. And you know, the backlash was
quite minimal, actually 90% supportive. People
were just like, fuck. Yeah. In fact, a lot of people were asking about how
they can do it. So I just thought I'd bring that up because it sort of loops back into what
we were talking about earlier. This, you know, culture and tattooing of people
judging and deciding how others should run

(01:05:06):
their career. It's always so odd to me. Again, if you're not
hurting nobody, do whatever you want. Yeah. So if you get a chance to try
It was amazing. Cause they got him on anesthesia, which,
you know, he's out. He's got a breathing tube in, he's got a catheter in, he's

(01:05:27):
out, out. He's not twilight out. He's out. And,
uh, they're also giving him through the IV anti-inflammatories, like
the skin barely, he barely bled and barely
I heard that people like heal up super fast from
That was the next question. It's everybody's like, how's he doing? Well, the
next day he was doing great. He was here in San Diego. He

(01:05:49):
rented bikes. He went to the beach with his kids. So the next day I called him again.
I've been checking in on him, doing great. And then I kind
of let him be. And then about day five, he called me and he is being very, um,
he'd be in LA. He was laughing about it, but he was quick to tell me,
bro, I am not doing good. My entire
front burns like fire. I'm starting to itch uncontrollably

(01:06:11):
because it's just a sheer amount of space we tattooed. I
can't sleep. My throat is raw from the breathing tube. When
I go pee, it hurts from the catheter. I'm miserable. I am
literally miserable. Now he could be taking a lot of narcotics to help him,
but he's a kind of a straight edge dude and he won't. He's just like, he's
just going to rough through it. But anyone listening, Yeah,

(01:06:32):
and he you know, he's good now. We're like two weeks out, but
there was like day four to day eight He he
said were if he had to do it again, he would schedule Completely
on he had to go to work. Yeah, he's like if I had known this was gonna happen. I
would have not even had work I just would have stayed home and rested.
Yeah, treat it more like an operation. Yeah instead of yeah,

(01:06:56):
So yeah, if you do something of that magnitude, or if
someone else out there does that, plan on having some time to heal.
And now, yeah, he's healing great. I haven't seen it, but he's like, it's
just like any other tattoo, man. I've got a couple little scabs on his hips
where he bends, and everything else is flaking. And I should
probably call it a day. I just got back in town from Austin. I haven't talked to him in a few days.

(01:07:17):
But I would expect by today, he's probably
done, you know, generally speaking, two weeks out,
right? It's pretty sweet. You know, he
obviously can afford it, but that dude just, and that was his thing. People
are like, oh, he's a, he's a pussy. He doesn't want to do the pain. And I,
he'll tell you that's not true at all. What he'll tell you is I'm married, I've

(01:07:38):
got kids and I'm a busy person in business. And to drive down
here, I would have had, that would have been how many trips, how many
hotel rooms, how many hours away from my family and my
work. He's like, I just don't want to go through all that. I just want it done.
Yeah, I think that's a good reason. Yeah. More power to you. Yeah. Especially for,
you know, a collector who, um, obviously he has great work

(01:07:59):
and he just wanted more great work from great artists. It wasn't
just trying to get filled up for the sake of getting filled up. He knew what
he wanted and yeah, just didn't want to, I, I can respect that
too because like, I don't have a lot of time to like,
And it was a cool process if you want like a pretty VIP experience. I

(01:08:20):
mean here he had me, Sean Dorfler,
Kenny B, and Patrick Sweeney. Some of you might know who they are.
Some of the top tier illustration based tattooers
I've ever worked with. Really fucking talented dudes. Each
of us submitted a sketch without showing each other what we were doing. We
all listened to his idea, submitted a sketch. So he got to pick from

(01:08:41):
four sketches. And we thought we're gonna fuse a
bunch together i thought he's gonna like this piece of this one that piece that one turns
out he love patrick sweeney's piece. I was the one he like the
most and then of course we pass that through us again i
made some changes and correct everybody got their hands on
it again. Went back to him, he approved that, and then we

(01:09:03):
passed it around again for color theory. That went back to him. So
what he didn't just get 34 hours of tattooing, he got the combined
creative talent of four guys. The color theory,
the changes to the core design, everything was the
power of four. Which was really, like

(01:09:27):
Something. Yeah. Oh yeah. Because I did some color stuff that he loved and
then he, and then Sean added different wings that would, that
I was like, yeah, those are better wings. Let's use Sean's wings. And so it was
just the piece kept getting upgraded through it being passed through several
artists. Yeah. Which is in effect i didn't really i thought well
what you gonna get for the money he's paying it's gonna get a bunch of tattooing in
one session but it's more than that he got again this creative project of

(01:09:50):
four people collaborate which was. It's own
dope thing you know the whole thing was so fun yeah
That's what I like about collaborations is when you actually collab and you can't see
this artist did this, this artist did that. You know, it's not everybody
gets a section and you can see the, you know, the division
between the sections. Like I like that because that's a unique experience.

(01:10:14):
Like how, how many times do you get to get those artists together
to mash up into like one cohesive piece that,
I think that's really cool. It was very cool. I hope to do more. Um,
we'll see. I think we will be doing more actually. Right on, man. Well,
how about this? I think we've, I think we've covered a lot today. I think
that's good, but I did want to, well, where,

(01:10:38):
My Instagram, like. So someone can DM you? Um,
yeah. Yeah. They can. And then they'll get an application. Yeah, or they can,
you know, leave a comment or there's the link in my bio for
the website. Websites getting rebuilt, but it'll bring
them to a email subscription for the for

(01:11:01):
Yeah. Yeah. Usually I post, uh, my, my concepts and everything
And what about before we wrap it up? I mean, so you
mentioned it earlier, but I want to always say like, what's next, you know,
So I've really been into just relearning how
to tattoo. I've been taking a lot of online

(01:11:23):
seminars and like painting classes and everything and just
trying to kind of find the learning.
aspect of it again. Like I love learning and
and I'd love to start teaching. I know a lot of people have been
putting out seminars and stuff like that. I've been thinking about doing it for years.

(01:11:44):
But yeah, I would really like to start kind
of sharing that that 22 years of experience and
my perspective, more my perspective than so much like techniques. I
think I'd rather help guide people a little bit and have
just the fundamentals of like You know, kind of like everything
that we talked about. So I'd like to start teaching. I might

(01:12:05):
be toying with the idea of taking on an apprentice at
some point. Oh, you said that out loud. Get ready. Yeah.
But I'll tell you what, you should do it. Yeah, I
really want to start giving back and teaching. It's giving back.
You know what else it is though? I learned this from having a few
apprentices now. Teaching is the highest level of learning. Yeah.

(01:12:26):
Like it's one thing to understand something on this really deep intuitive level
because you've done it for 22 years. But when you have to articulate it
for another person to understand what you're saying, It's almost like
you have to figure yourself out again. Yeah. Like I learned more teaching
my apprentices and it advances me more my career than the act of
And that's kind of why I started taking all these classes again so I

(01:12:48):
can maybe articulate a little bit better how I do things
They say articulation of a mastery of something is
the final step of truly understanding that thing. You know, a master
is someone who not only can do something masterfully, but can
also somehow express it so another can pick that up
and carry the torch ahead. That's just the natural process of

(01:13:10):
what we do as craftsmen, as artists, right? And the giving back
part of it. You know, if you really love tattooing,
you want to leave a few people behind when you're done and that are doing well
because they knew you. It's a huge gift. Well,
that's cool everybody. If you want to apply, hit them up. And
I think you mentioned also, um, you're in a private studio right now, but

(01:13:33):
I've been toying around with the idea. I'm not sure yet, but yeah,
I played around with the idea of having a studio again or having at least a
handful of artists. Cause I do miss it. I miss that atmosphere.
I miss bouncing ideas off each other and, and yeah, just learning from
each other and having that, that sense of community. So
kind of just going back to the roots a little bit and, and figuring it

(01:13:57):
Well, I'm excited because what I hear in there, cause I see your work now
and I get, I get what you said earlier. Like, I could see how people would
look at the pieces you've done and they're probably asking for, you know,
variations of what you've already done. And I
can hear what you're saying is you're out there wanting to learn and
work on what's next. And I know whatever it is

(01:14:20):
will be probably quite a bit different than what you've already produced. So
I love your work. I think it's absolutely phenomenal. And as
good as that is, I can't even imagine what's next. Cause
that's going to blow everybody's mind. So keep at it. The world could
use more Jesse, uh, Rick's. Um, and I look
forward to seeing what you come up with, what you produce. Um, and thank you

(01:14:40):
for flying all the way out here to do this with us. And I think you're going to sit
with us at Guru tomorrow. You got a client, you're going to do a little tattooing with us,
which is also an honor. Um, so I just, I really appreciate it.
And I appreciate this badass Canadian maple homestead
syrup. He brought me, I don't eat pancakes very often, but when I
do, This will be the syrup I'll put on top. All right, my

(01:15:00):
man. Well, cheers to you. High five. Yeah, thank you. And you
know, we'll stay in touch. See what's next. Awesome. All right, everybody. Thanks
for tuning in. Thank you for all the comments, the DMs, the
subscriptions. Please keep them coming. I'm a small show. I
want to be here in a year, two years, five years. So if
you like what I'm doing, I need those subscriptions. I need those comments. I

(01:15:21):
need that encouragement. So many of you have been doing that. I just want to say I'm
so grateful for that. It makes what I do here on the show Way,
way, way worth it. So thank you and I'll see you on the next one.