February 26, 2025 • 25 mins
In the realms of tattooing and art, the environment in which an artist operates is pivotal to their development and growth. As discussed in the podcast episode, surrounding oneself with skilled artists can significantly enhance one’s ability to absorb knowledge and overcome subconscious limitations.
In this episode of 'Chats and Tatts,' host Aaron Della Vedova sits down with a talented tattoo artist 'Cheeseburger' known for his impressive color realism and surrealism work, infused with elements of anime. Aaron, after discovering Cheese's artistry, left him amazed by the hard work and skill displayed in the tattoos. The discussion delves into the artist's journey, balancing family life with his craft while working at Pacific Soul Tattoo in Honolulu, Hawaii. Aaron shares insights on how exposure to talented peers can break down subconscious limitations in art, inspiring creativity and growth.
Tune in for an engaging conversation filled with artistic passion and the realities of being a family man in the tattoo industry.
Chat Breakdown:
00:00:32 - Absorbing Tattoo Knowledge
00:03:29 - Influence of Hawaiian Tattoo Culture
00:04:20 - Challenges of Color Realism on Dark Skin
00:05:10 - Evolution of Cheese's Tattoo Style
00:06:01 - Learning from Nikko Hurtado
00:08:10 - Hard Work vs. Talent in Tattooing
00:09:08 - The Physical and Mental Demands of Tattooing
00:11:02 - The Intimacy of Tattooing
00:12:48 - Energy Exchange in Tattooing
00:14:08 - Balancing Health, Family, and Work
00:19:00 - The Role of Social Media in Tattooing
00:19:52 - Passion and Challenges in Tattooing
00:20:07 - Economic Impact on Tattoo Industry
00:21:18 - Adapting to Changes in the Tattoo Industry
00:23:36 - Fears and Motivations for Tattoo Artists
Quotes:
"You realize they're human, they're not gods, they're not magicians, they're just regular people like you, and somehow he's doing that, or she's doing that, so it just, without even knowing it, it clicks into your mind that, then I can do that."
"The intimacy, I think right off the bat, the first thing that comes to my mind is the intimacy because you're sharing this. It's a whole experience."
"Tattoo clients that collect at a larger level. They're really artsy people. They really are."
"My family, that's what drives me first."
"I love tattooing. I know it can kill me at the end. I still love doing it."
"Tattooing is my passion and my poison."
Stay Connected:
Connect with Cheeseburger:
IG: https://www.instagram.com/cheeseburgerchampion
Connect with Aaron:
Website: http://www.chatsandtatts.com
Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@chatsandtatts
IG: http://www.instagram.com/chatsandtatts
Chats & Tatts YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/chatsandtatts
Aaron IG: http://www.instagram.com/aarondellavedova
Guru Tattoo: http://www.Gurutattoo.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Really what tends to happen is you just absorb the
level of tattoos that are around you. It's like anything. If
you want to be a great UFC fighter, you're
going to have to start rolling around with some super rad fighters. Even
if they told you nothing with words, you're going to absorb
that knowledge through interacting with them. But another
(00:22):
thing that kind of occurs is we have these subconscious limitations
about what we think tattoo can be, and until you
work next to a guy that's breaking those limitations, because
you learn to know the guy, you realize they're human, they're
not gods, they're not magicians, they're just regular people like you,
and somehow he's doing that, or she's doing that, so
(00:44):
it just, without even knowing it, it clicks into your mind that, then I
Shit's about to
go down. Chats
(01:11):
fellow humans, lovers of art, and probably tattoo, if
you're watching this show. I'm your host, Aaron
Della Vedova. This is Chats and Tats, and we are gonna talk to
a very talented tattoo artist today. I wasn't super
familiar with his work, and somehow we got connected, and once I looked at
his portfolio, I was like, damn. This guy is
(01:32):
working hard and knows what he's doing. Very impressive. I
would probably call his work color realism, surrealism. There's
an anime in there. All of it's super dope. Well done stuff.
You know, he's an artist. He's a family man. He's got three kids, some
of them very young. I'm going to ask him about how the hell he works as hard
as he does and makes the art that he makes and manages that shit. Because
(01:52):
I tried to do it, and man, it wasn't easy. And he
works in Honolulu, Hawaii at Pacific Soul
Tattoo. So with all that being said, please welcome my guest
today, Jose Guevara Morales, otherwise
known as Cheese. He goes by atcheeseburgerchampion on
(02:16):
Thank you for being here. You know, we're here at the Pasadena Golden State
Tattoo Expo. That's why you're here. I came up here
to kind of hopefully talk to a few cool tattooers. I'm a fool too,
but you can talk to me. A fool tattooer. And
I got you up here. Thank you so much. These ones are kind of, we're
just shooting from the hip, going quick, because we're going to rip through a few folks while
(02:37):
we're here. Got it. But I'm glad I have you for at least the next 45 minutes
or so. OK. But let's just move right into it. I mean, how'd
Man, well, I've always been familiar with tattooing, of
it, not like how to tattoo or anything, and it wasn't until I was
finally 19. I had a son, my
(02:57):
first son was born when I was 18, so I got my first tattoo when I
was 19, and it was his name. And I've
always done art, I never had art classes or lessons or
anything, but I was obviously interested in art and would draw and whatnot. I
got my tattoo and I thought it was really cool, but I
was like, man, I feel like this is something I'd really want to get into. And
(03:18):
of course, growing up in Hawaii, you're surrounded by
tattoos, especially of like, you know, Polynesian culture.
I mean, a lot of people probably
know this, but in Hawaii, Honolulu, I
mean, that's where Silly Jerry was working, you know, and made, for
the most part, American tattooing popular, especially with
(03:42):
Yeah, I think people, yeah, it should be noted like Sailor
Jerry and that movement kind of started and was born out of
Hawaii. Yep. You know, so in a weird way, like I think a lot of people look
at San Francisco as the core roots of
You got to talk about that. Yes. Cause that, I feel like that was even,
I mean, if it serves me right, especially at
(04:05):
least for the military, it was, it's where it pretty much began. You
Yeah. And the work you do, I was thinking about you out in Hawaii with all these tan
people and I look, you know, you do work that doesn't
I definitely try my best. Um, I do give forewarning or
even advise against, you know, the hyper color pieces, you
(04:28):
know? Yeah. Like stuff like, I don't care what anyone says.
Like there's stuff that's not going to stay. Like if you don't
Yeah. Yeah. You wanna do peach to light peach to white highlights,
you gotta do it on some pretty white skin. Yeah,
true that, true that. Well, you got some
amazing work. Thank you. I'm assuming
(04:52):
You've been doing this 18 years now. The
style I'm seeing you put out on Instagram right now
is that, I mean, how many years ago do you think that started to emerge
out of you? More recently, or were you always headed in that
So I actually, I feel like
(05:14):
I did start I think I started about
maybe as far as trying to go for realism, as
far as like 20, 2012, maybe
2011, 2012. But, you know, I had a formal apprenticeship and
everything, but it wasn't until after I'd been tattooing for a
(05:34):
while and then like actually going and get tattooed by people like,
you know, I looked up to or whatnot, you know, trying to
learn and then, you know, trying to do guest spots on the mainland, like
trying to, just learn, learn, learn. And then I
feel like it really kicked in when I finally, my
family and I moved from Oahu to Hesperia to
(05:56):
work at Black Anchor. And there I actually feel like-
Yeah. Okay. All the puzzles just came together.
Seeing that level of use of color, right? Yeah.
Working next to Nico Hurtado. Yeah. You probably learned a
You know, no matter, I feel like no
matter what anyone would say, like just that
(06:19):
environment there, just working there, even let's say
if you didn't have a bunch of one-on-one time with him or anything, but
just in general, especially during that time, there's no
way you're not gonna do better. There's no way you're not gonna
Yeah, it's funny how learning
happens. You know, at my shops, the young artists that come
(06:41):
on board, they are, in their minds, they're just like, teach
me how to tattoo. Like, they think I'm gonna
show them a needle they didn't understand or a technique they didn't understand.
And those things happen. But really, what tends
to happen is you just absorb the
level of tattooers that are around you. It's like anything. Like,
(07:02):
if you want to be a great UFC fighter yeah you're
gonna have to start rolling around with some super rad fighters you
know and even if they told you nothing with words you're gonna
absorb that knowledge through interacting with them but
another thing that kind of occurs is We have these subconscious limitations
about what we think tattoo can be. And until you
(07:24):
work next to a guy that's breaking those limitations, because
you learn to know the guy, you realize they're human, they're
not gods, they're not magicians, they're just regular people like you.
And somehow he's doing that or she's doing that. So
it just, without even knowing it, it clicks into your mind that then I
can do that. But if you watch those heroes from a
(07:45):
distance through your phone, you'll develop a wall
around you unconsciously that sort of like, well, they're, They're
special and I don't know how they do it. They're not human beings. They're
something else. I'm a regular human. I'll, you know,
you just won't break through that. So I tell these young people in my shop, like the
greatest gift you're going to get right now is you're just going to, you're going to, without
(08:06):
knowing it, set a new bar for what's possible. Yeah. Would you agree with
A hundred percent. Um, the way I look at it, well, first of all,
you know, among everything, like you're an amazing artist. So, you
know, and not just because of that, but like, obviously you, you hearing
you say that, like you understand exactly because I use, sometimes
I use the metaphor bodybuilders. They
(08:29):
don't get buff watching competitions on TV or doing
whatever. How do you get buff? You gotta work out. A lot of
people are like, Oh, I don't have a bone in my body, an artistic bone
in my body. And it's like, Hard work outweighs talent
any day. And the truth of the matter is, even
if some people are naturally inclined towards something, I strongly believe
(08:49):
art is like, or even tattooing is like a muscle, you got to work it
out. And everyone's on a different path. But if
you work it out, like you'll be able to do do that too, you
know. I understand when I tell people things like, oh, I can't do
that. I feel like I know I'm saying, because I can't, I'm
Yeah, what you're really saying is, I'm not willing to do the work it's
(09:11):
going to take to do that. Exactly. Because you can't do it. Yeah. Yeah,
that's totally true. The work aspect is,
you know, everyone has to work hard to be great at something. But in
the art fields, it tattooing is like the it is
the bodybuilder of art, right? Yeah, you have to it's
a very physical art. You have to physically work
(09:32):
mop up blood. and figure out what the fuck, it's hours. There's
no escaping it. You know, sometimes a painter or somebody like that
could just have an aha moment and splash it onto canvas and
they're the next big thing. It's a stroke of genius, a moment of
savant genius occurs. You don't get away with that in tattooing. You
could have the most breakthrough idea for a tattoo
(09:54):
in your mind, but your ability to put it into skin and have
it heal and have it last, the only way you're gonna make that happen is a couple
thousand hours of tattooing. You know, it's
definitely it's a yeah tattooing is that tattooing
is a lot of things and I'm Separating tattoo right
now from other art forms, but let's go down that rabbit
(10:14):
hole. I mean in your words What in does
make what makes tattoo so? wildly different
than any other art form and in my opinion more
The intimacy, I think right off the bat, the first thing that comes
to my mind is the intimacy because you're sharing this. It's a whole
experience, like, of course, like art, like oil painting,
(10:37):
watercolor, like any kind of art, like murals, like pottery,
anything like The thing with tattooing is it's it really
intimate with the person that you're tattooing. It's it's a whole experience,
you know You know, they have to let down
their guard they have to they have to really have Perseverance,
you know and at the same time you have all this trust
(11:02):
Do the same as or at least return like what they're expecting and
you're kind of just riding this boat together You know, but
together it's I feel like it's just really intimate it
is It's very intimate, you know, we were going through this
before you got up here with another tattoo or Tony Mancilla Yeah,
such rad work that he does but you know, we got into this
(11:24):
and it you know It was like this idea around, you know to
buy a painting doesn't redefine who you are You
know you're still you and you own a painting. And
it sort of does, because people are like, oh, I now know that you're into that kind of
art. To get a tattoo is to change who you
are. It's powerful
(11:46):
and it makes it different. It's just always gonna be different than any other kind of art. That
plus the collaboration aspect. How many art forms does the
client who's purchasing the art get to sit there and decide
whether to use light purple or light blue? You don't tell
a painter what he's gonna use. He paints it and you buy the damn painting. But
we collaborate. And so it's really beautiful to allow
(12:07):
people to collaborate because they get to be part of this art project. They
get to be an artist. you know, with you through that. And
I think you've noticed this. I've noticed this is like tattoo clients that
collect at a larger level. They're really artsy people.
They really are. Probably most of them could have been artists. It's
just their path took them into insurance sales. But
(12:29):
they're just sitting at their office every day like, I wanna create art,
but I don't have a thousand hours to learn how to draw. But I can call
Jose up and I can tell him some ideas and he can draw and I can
get involved and they can be an artist with you through that experience.
It's something that's special for sure. Very, very special.
the energy exchange that occurs with a client, being
(12:54):
willing to allow your energy to flow into them. You
know what I mean? I don't know how to put that one into words, but you know the
difference. You come home from a tattoo where someone wasn't
struggling physically, you got energy. You come home from
six hours, seven hours of tattooing on someone who's going through hell, you
come home fucking tired. Well, why are you more tired? You
(13:15):
were holding the same machine, pushing the same skin around, why? Because
you were, I think, allowing energy, spiritual,
whatever you want to call it, energy. You were giving what you had to them so they
could get through it without words. And so
we end up with, you know, tattooers, it's really cool because we
end up with thousands of these bonds. What
(13:37):
a cool thing, after all the years, to have so many people
that you've shared that with, that you could just call up, most
of them would do anything for you, you would probably do the same, and there's not
just 10 of them, a few thousand of them. Very strange
thing to have that many close, close friends through an
art form. I mean, I guess what I'm saying is I think that's probably the
(13:58):
Yeah, it's definitely an exchange of
energy and a little bit of my back breaking. Yeah,
Let's get into that. You're talking about health now. So health. How
your 18 year tattooer, you're working very, very hard.
You're putting a lot of hours in. I know just from looking at your Instagram, you are,
(14:18):
you've got a wife, you've got three kids, life, work, balance, health.
How do you keep your sanity? How do you keep from breaking your back? And
how do you maintain a wife that
still loves you, wants to hang out with you and kids and spend time with them, develop relationships
with your children? How do you balance all that? Oh, man. Well, or
I do my best. I mean, first of all, as far as the
(14:41):
back, my secret is my back's already broken. So no, but
literally, obviously, health should be
put first. So you have more longevity, something I clearly
visually am having all those difficulties with. But
as far as finding time, my family, that's what
drives me first. I'm really
(15:04):
fortunate that they definitely understand, but I
do make time for them, even if
it's a quick phone call or anything, if I'm away. That's
literally what my drive is. You know, I've been
working since I was 14 years old, like an actual job. So
(15:25):
I've just always been working. And, you know, like even friends,
I'll say like, man, I haven't tattooed in like a day or
two. I'm tripping out right now. Like, you know what I mean? And not saying
that's a good habit. It's just... You know, but
I just, you know, I don't necessarily have a set plan other than
like a list of just priorities, like my family, you know,
(15:46):
trying to stay sane, like whatever it may be, even
just taking a walk or like trying to think of my fitness, like, or whatever, you
know, exercising. And then of course, like art,
like trying to stay on top of it, you know, getting older, you
know, myself. you know, I'm surrounded, you
know, a lot of times, especially like, like even
(16:07):
like my brother, Derek, like there's really
talented and like hard working people. And like, I feel
like being around that also gives me the drive. Like,
come on, man. Like, you know, you're an
old dog, but you gotta, you gotta keep, you gotta keep doing it.
Like, you know, um, I think that helps
(16:28):
the motivation a lot, you know, you know, um,
I, I really think that it's
just important to just, just keep trying.
Cause I have days too where I'm like, man, I think
I'm done, you know, like I'm hurt, I'm hurting. Like,
you know, but, uh, I think that's when I just try to like, just
(16:51):
think about it, spending time with my family and just be like, ah, this is why I'm doing
Yeah, you got to have something that drives you to do the uncomfortable things in
life. And for a lot of people, it's always going to be their family. Other
people, it's other stuff. But I see that's a big driving force
for why you push so hard in your career. How many days a
(17:11):
So full honesty, things have
slowed down. So before, normally
I do anywhere between minimum four days
a week. There's times I was doing like two weeks straight
Wow, and then I take a few days off, you know, um right
now I'm trying to get back to the like Four
(17:34):
to five day a week, you know but
It's it's so comfortable, you know, as long as I don't tattoo
for like 12 or 14 hours Those days like I
definitely noticed that I'm definitely appreciating starting like
less. I mean conventions is different Especially I don't live here, you
know, so like I want to get my stuff done, you know, but
(17:56):
um I'm definitely starting to try to like balance
Yeah, you gotta go to four, dude. You said five, stop with that.
I'm just saying, after 30 years, man, I've seen so many people go down this road. Four
is the number. I mean, really, as me, I'm
dropping to threes and twos now. But it's 30 years
(18:18):
of tattooing for me. But four is a
good number, because I find it to be like, you need three days. One
is grocery shopping and house chores. And
then one is maybe something for yourself. And
then you need a whole other one just to go on a date night with your wife and throw
the ball with the kids. And then back to work you go. Well, I left
(18:39):
something out. You need a day of drawing. Yeah. So really, you're right. So
take one out for drawing. So you're back to five days a week, except one's
I also feel though now to social media, you
need almost basically a day for that. Or I mean, yeah, it's
for me, it's hard, but I'm trying because I do realize that's how
(19:01):
it is right now. Like that, like, you know, I'm an old dude,
I can complain about it and whatever, which I do. But
I do realize though it is important right now and that's that's how
it's going, you know and like So
I think slowly more time is going to take it up. But you're
(19:21):
right. I'd like to get to the point where I
feel like four or less will be more comfortable. But
I've got to say, I know it's bad. I look
at it like NBA players, the ones that play pickup games still
because they love it, I love tattooing. I know it
can kill me at the end. I still love doing it.
(19:42):
You know, I know it's like horrible to probably say that. I know it's
smart to, especially I got a family and everything, but like
I think, you know, good way to put it. Yeah. You mentioned earlier
the slow it's gotten slower. This is a big conversation in
tattooing right now. We're seeing it online. I see it on Instagram every day. I
(20:07):
So first and foremost, let me let you know, I'm not a
very educated person, but from what
I've heard from different people, conversations and everything, the economy
in general, I'm not even familiar with politics or
anything, but I definitely like, you know, I've seen shit
go up in price, groceries, everything. Um, you
(20:28):
know, obviously a lot of people, I mean, at
least from what I've heard from clients, like, you know, they don't have the, the
excess, like, cause that's means a luxury, you know what I mean? And they don't have the
excess funds as much as they did and whatnot. You know?
Um, I feel like even if someone that's slammed, like all
the time, they might not be suffering, but they've definitely noticed
(20:50):
something like, I know everyone has like,
You know, it's something, you know, so, um, I
don't know. But I also feel like, I feel like this year's
going towards a more positive direction. Like
I said, I talk, I talk with my brother about a lot and I
(21:11):
feel like it's going to start kind of getting like back
towards a positive route, you know, but I think so
Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely occurring. The economy has affected people's ability
to have disposable income for luxury things. That
is, we see it in my shops all the time. I've had many of my
clients be like, yeah, I'm going to have to take a break, tighten in the belt.
(21:32):
I'm like, huh, didn't hear that a few years ago. No one ever said
that. But they're doing that. I mean, also, you
know, let's face it, a lot of people became tattooers, which
is fine. I mean, who am I to stop somebody's dream? No, but
a lot did. And, you know, we, you and
I were part of an era of tattooing where it
(21:53):
was just so robust. There was not enough tattooers, good
ones to keep up with the demand. And so you could just be
slack on your Instagram and you could just not worry about a lot of
different business things that every other business has to worry
about. You know, if you're in an auto body shop, you
probably have to run ads in your local, you know, whatever you have
(22:14):
to have a budgeting. You have to keep track of your Yelp reviews. This
is what regular businesses have always done. And suddenly we're,
we're being forced to do it. And a lot of people are pissed
off about that. I'm more like, that's just, we're a mature
industry now. And we finally reached our mature point,
and we have to play the game like every other business. If
(22:36):
you're an owner, especially as an owner, shit, I go to more marketing
meetings now than I do tattoo consultations. And I
don't know. don't like it. Why do I do it? Because I
feel like I'm the shepherd of these younger
tattooers. Like if I'm not doing that, they're going to be hurting. No, absolutely. So
they're looking at me like, can you, can you make, keep us busy? And I'm like, yeah,
(22:57):
I'll skip another day of tattooing and go have a marketing meeting. No, right. Yeah.
For you, for, well, for me too, but for us, Well,
that's really good on you though, because, you know, um,
you know, there are, you know, owners are captains of the ships. There are
people that do that and there's a lot that don't. So, um,
like you said, like, I mean, Percy, like I said, I don't like it, but
(23:19):
I realize that's what it is. And so, you
Well, like I said, I hate to do it this way, but we had to go hard
and fast. What do you fear the
Like as far as tattooing or life? Life. Not
(23:41):
provided for my family or not, even if I
die tomorrow, not leaving them something. Yeah. And
Which, those kind of go hand in hand. If you
drown, that ain't going to be very helpful for the kids and the wives. Stay
out of the water, maybe, if that's a deep-seated fear
(24:02):
of yours. You live in Hawaii. You live on
And you have a fear of drowning. I don't know, man. The next thing I'll hear shit about is I
don't eat fish either. What are
you doing in Hawaii? They
got a lot of good beef over there too. I'm also Hispanic descent and
(24:24):
This is a contradictory on every level. Well,
hey, look, it was a pleasure to sit down with you, get to know you at
least a little bit. Again, your tattooing is
phenomenal. I think it's absolutely rad. Thank you. Anybody out
there who wants to check it out, really hyper-realistic color
work, please go check it out. they can find you at
(24:47):
cheeseburgerchampion on Instagram. They can reach
Awesome. Well, do that. I highly recommend you at least take a
peek and thank you for tuning in and we'll see you on the next one.
Really what tends to happen is you just absorb the
level of tattoos that are around you. It's like anything. If
you want to be a great UFC fighter, you're
going to have to start rolling around with some super rad fighters. Even
if they told you nothing with words, you're going to absorb
that knowledge through interacting with them. But another
(00:22):
thing that kind of occurs is we have these subconscious limitations
about what we think tattoo can be, and until you
work next to a guy that's breaking those limitations, because
you learn to know the guy, you realize they're human, they're
not gods, they're not magicians, they're just regular people like you,
and somehow he's doing that, or she's doing that, so
(00:44):
it just, without even knowing it, it clicks into your mind that, then I
Shit's about to
go down. Chats
(01:11):
fellow humans, lovers of art, and probably tattoo, if
you're watching this show. I'm your host, Aaron
Della Vedova. This is Chats and Tats, and we are gonna talk to
a very talented tattoo artist today. I wasn't super
familiar with his work, and somehow we got connected, and once I looked at
his portfolio, I was like, damn. This guy is
(01:32):
working hard and knows what he's doing. Very impressive. I
would probably call his work color realism, surrealism. There's
an anime in there. All of it's super dope. Well done stuff.
You know, he's an artist. He's a family man. He's got three kids, some
of them very young. I'm going to ask him about how the hell he works as hard
as he does and makes the art that he makes and manages that shit. Because
(01:52):
I tried to do it, and man, it wasn't easy. And he
works in Honolulu, Hawaii at Pacific Soul
Tattoo. So with all that being said, please welcome my guest
today, Jose Guevara Morales, otherwise
known as Cheese. He goes by atcheeseburgerchampion on
(02:16):
Thank you for being here. You know, we're here at the Pasadena Golden State
Tattoo Expo. That's why you're here. I came up here
to kind of hopefully talk to a few cool tattooers. I'm a fool too,
but you can talk to me. A fool tattooer. And
I got you up here. Thank you so much. These ones are kind of, we're
just shooting from the hip, going quick, because we're going to rip through a few folks while
(02:37):
we're here. Got it. But I'm glad I have you for at least the next 45 minutes
or so. OK. But let's just move right into it. I mean, how'd
Man, well, I've always been familiar with tattooing, of
it, not like how to tattoo or anything, and it wasn't until I was
finally 19. I had a son, my
(02:57):
first son was born when I was 18, so I got my first tattoo when I
was 19, and it was his name. And I've
always done art, I never had art classes or lessons or
anything, but I was obviously interested in art and would draw and whatnot. I
got my tattoo and I thought it was really cool, but I
was like, man, I feel like this is something I'd really want to get into. And
(03:18):
of course, growing up in Hawaii, you're surrounded by
tattoos, especially of like, you know, Polynesian culture.
I mean, a lot of people probably
know this, but in Hawaii, Honolulu, I
mean, that's where Silly Jerry was working, you know, and made, for
the most part, American tattooing popular, especially with
(03:42):
Yeah, I think people, yeah, it should be noted like Sailor
Jerry and that movement kind of started and was born out of
Hawaii. Yep. You know, so in a weird way, like I think a lot of people look
at San Francisco as the core roots of
You got to talk about that. Yes. Cause that, I feel like that was even,
I mean, if it serves me right, especially at
(04:05):
least for the military, it was, it's where it pretty much began. You
Yeah. And the work you do, I was thinking about you out in Hawaii with all these tan
people and I look, you know, you do work that doesn't
I definitely try my best. Um, I do give forewarning or
even advise against, you know, the hyper color pieces, you
(04:28):
know? Yeah. Like stuff like, I don't care what anyone says.
Like there's stuff that's not going to stay. Like if you don't
Yeah. Yeah. You wanna do peach to light peach to white highlights,
you gotta do it on some pretty white skin. Yeah,
true that, true that. Well, you got some
amazing work. Thank you. I'm assuming
(04:52):
You've been doing this 18 years now. The
style I'm seeing you put out on Instagram right now
is that, I mean, how many years ago do you think that started to emerge
out of you? More recently, or were you always headed in that
So I actually, I feel like
(05:14):
I did start I think I started about
maybe as far as trying to go for realism, as
far as like 20, 2012, maybe
2011, 2012. But, you know, I had a formal apprenticeship and
everything, but it wasn't until after I'd been tattooing for a
(05:34):
while and then like actually going and get tattooed by people like,
you know, I looked up to or whatnot, you know, trying to
learn and then, you know, trying to do guest spots on the mainland, like
trying to, just learn, learn, learn. And then I
feel like it really kicked in when I finally, my
family and I moved from Oahu to Hesperia to
(05:56):
work at Black Anchor. And there I actually feel like-
Yeah. Okay. All the puzzles just came together.
Seeing that level of use of color, right? Yeah.
Working next to Nico Hurtado. Yeah. You probably learned a
You know, no matter, I feel like no
matter what anyone would say, like just that
(06:19):
environment there, just working there, even let's say
if you didn't have a bunch of one-on-one time with him or anything, but
just in general, especially during that time, there's no
way you're not gonna do better. There's no way you're not gonna
Yeah, it's funny how learning
happens. You know, at my shops, the young artists that come
(06:41):
on board, they are, in their minds, they're just like, teach
me how to tattoo. Like, they think I'm gonna
show them a needle they didn't understand or a technique they didn't understand.
And those things happen. But really, what tends
to happen is you just absorb the
level of tattooers that are around you. It's like anything. Like,
(07:02):
if you want to be a great UFC fighter yeah you're
gonna have to start rolling around with some super rad fighters you
know and even if they told you nothing with words you're gonna
absorb that knowledge through interacting with them but
another thing that kind of occurs is We have these subconscious limitations
about what we think tattoo can be. And until you
(07:24):
work next to a guy that's breaking those limitations, because
you learn to know the guy, you realize they're human, they're
not gods, they're not magicians, they're just regular people like you.
And somehow he's doing that or she's doing that. So
it just, without even knowing it, it clicks into your mind that then I
can do that. But if you watch those heroes from a
(07:45):
distance through your phone, you'll develop a wall
around you unconsciously that sort of like, well, they're, They're
special and I don't know how they do it. They're not human beings. They're
something else. I'm a regular human. I'll, you know,
you just won't break through that. So I tell these young people in my shop, like the
greatest gift you're going to get right now is you're just going to, you're going to, without
(08:06):
knowing it, set a new bar for what's possible. Yeah. Would you agree with
A hundred percent. Um, the way I look at it, well, first of all,
you know, among everything, like you're an amazing artist. So, you
know, and not just because of that, but like, obviously you, you hearing
you say that, like you understand exactly because I use, sometimes
I use the metaphor bodybuilders. They
(08:29):
don't get buff watching competitions on TV or doing
whatever. How do you get buff? You gotta work out. A lot of
people are like, Oh, I don't have a bone in my body, an artistic bone
in my body. And it's like, Hard work outweighs talent
any day. And the truth of the matter is, even
if some people are naturally inclined towards something, I strongly believe
(08:49):
art is like, or even tattooing is like a muscle, you got to work it
out. And everyone's on a different path. But if
you work it out, like you'll be able to do do that too, you
know. I understand when I tell people things like, oh, I can't do
that. I feel like I know I'm saying, because I can't, I'm
Yeah, what you're really saying is, I'm not willing to do the work it's
(09:11):
going to take to do that. Exactly. Because you can't do it. Yeah. Yeah,
that's totally true. The work aspect is,
you know, everyone has to work hard to be great at something. But in
the art fields, it tattooing is like the it is
the bodybuilder of art, right? Yeah, you have to it's
a very physical art. You have to physically work
(09:32):
mop up blood. and figure out what the fuck, it's hours. There's
no escaping it. You know, sometimes a painter or somebody like that
could just have an aha moment and splash it onto canvas and
they're the next big thing. It's a stroke of genius, a moment of
savant genius occurs. You don't get away with that in tattooing. You
could have the most breakthrough idea for a tattoo
(09:54):
in your mind, but your ability to put it into skin and have
it heal and have it last, the only way you're gonna make that happen is a couple
thousand hours of tattooing. You know, it's
definitely it's a yeah tattooing is that tattooing
is a lot of things and I'm Separating tattoo right
now from other art forms, but let's go down that rabbit
(10:14):
hole. I mean in your words What in does
make what makes tattoo so? wildly different
than any other art form and in my opinion more
The intimacy, I think right off the bat, the first thing that comes
to my mind is the intimacy because you're sharing this. It's a whole
experience, like, of course, like art, like oil painting,
(10:37):
watercolor, like any kind of art, like murals, like pottery,
anything like The thing with tattooing is it's it really
intimate with the person that you're tattooing. It's it's a whole experience,
you know You know, they have to let down
their guard they have to they have to really have Perseverance,
you know and at the same time you have all this trust
(11:02):
Do the same as or at least return like what they're expecting and
you're kind of just riding this boat together You know, but
together it's I feel like it's just really intimate it
is It's very intimate, you know, we were going through this
before you got up here with another tattoo or Tony Mancilla Yeah,
such rad work that he does but you know, we got into this
(11:24):
and it you know It was like this idea around, you know to
buy a painting doesn't redefine who you are You
know you're still you and you own a painting. And
it sort of does, because people are like, oh, I now know that you're into that kind of
art. To get a tattoo is to change who you
are. It's powerful
(11:46):
and it makes it different. It's just always gonna be different than any other kind of art. That
plus the collaboration aspect. How many art forms does the
client who's purchasing the art get to sit there and decide
whether to use light purple or light blue? You don't tell
a painter what he's gonna use. He paints it and you buy the damn painting. But
we collaborate. And so it's really beautiful to allow
(12:07):
people to collaborate because they get to be part of this art project. They
get to be an artist. you know, with you through that. And
I think you've noticed this. I've noticed this is like tattoo clients that
collect at a larger level. They're really artsy people.
They really are. Probably most of them could have been artists. It's
just their path took them into insurance sales. But
(12:29):
they're just sitting at their office every day like, I wanna create art,
but I don't have a thousand hours to learn how to draw. But I can call
Jose up and I can tell him some ideas and he can draw and I can
get involved and they can be an artist with you through that experience.
It's something that's special for sure. Very, very special.
the energy exchange that occurs with a client, being
(12:54):
willing to allow your energy to flow into them. You
know what I mean? I don't know how to put that one into words, but you know the
difference. You come home from a tattoo where someone wasn't
struggling physically, you got energy. You come home from
six hours, seven hours of tattooing on someone who's going through hell, you
come home fucking tired. Well, why are you more tired? You
(13:15):
were holding the same machine, pushing the same skin around, why? Because
you were, I think, allowing energy, spiritual,
whatever you want to call it, energy. You were giving what you had to them so they
could get through it without words. And so
we end up with, you know, tattooers, it's really cool because we
end up with thousands of these bonds. What
(13:37):
a cool thing, after all the years, to have so many people
that you've shared that with, that you could just call up, most
of them would do anything for you, you would probably do the same, and there's not
just 10 of them, a few thousand of them. Very strange
thing to have that many close, close friends through an
art form. I mean, I guess what I'm saying is I think that's probably the
(13:58):
Yeah, it's definitely an exchange of
energy and a little bit of my back breaking. Yeah,
Let's get into that. You're talking about health now. So health. How
your 18 year tattooer, you're working very, very hard.
You're putting a lot of hours in. I know just from looking at your Instagram, you are,
(14:18):
you've got a wife, you've got three kids, life, work, balance, health.
How do you keep your sanity? How do you keep from breaking your back? And
how do you maintain a wife that
still loves you, wants to hang out with you and kids and spend time with them, develop relationships
with your children? How do you balance all that? Oh, man. Well, or
I do my best. I mean, first of all, as far as the
(14:41):
back, my secret is my back's already broken. So no, but
literally, obviously, health should be
put first. So you have more longevity, something I clearly
visually am having all those difficulties with. But
as far as finding time, my family, that's what
drives me first. I'm really
(15:04):
fortunate that they definitely understand, but I
do make time for them, even if
it's a quick phone call or anything, if I'm away. That's
literally what my drive is. You know, I've been
working since I was 14 years old, like an actual job. So
(15:25):
I've just always been working. And, you know, like even friends,
I'll say like, man, I haven't tattooed in like a day or
two. I'm tripping out right now. Like, you know what I mean? And not saying
that's a good habit. It's just... You know, but
I just, you know, I don't necessarily have a set plan other than
like a list of just priorities, like my family, you know,
(15:46):
trying to stay sane, like whatever it may be, even
just taking a walk or like trying to think of my fitness, like, or whatever, you
know, exercising. And then of course, like art,
like trying to stay on top of it, you know, getting older, you
know, myself. you know, I'm surrounded, you
know, a lot of times, especially like, like even
(16:07):
like my brother, Derek, like there's really
talented and like hard working people. And like, I feel
like being around that also gives me the drive. Like,
come on, man. Like, you know, you're an
old dog, but you gotta, you gotta keep, you gotta keep doing it.
Like, you know, um, I think that helps
(16:28):
the motivation a lot, you know, you know, um,
I, I really think that it's
just important to just, just keep trying.
Cause I have days too where I'm like, man, I think
I'm done, you know, like I'm hurt, I'm hurting. Like,
you know, but, uh, I think that's when I just try to like, just
(16:51):
think about it, spending time with my family and just be like, ah, this is why I'm doing
Yeah, you got to have something that drives you to do the uncomfortable things in
life. And for a lot of people, it's always going to be their family. Other
people, it's other stuff. But I see that's a big driving force
for why you push so hard in your career. How many days a
(17:11):
So full honesty, things have
slowed down. So before, normally
I do anywhere between minimum four days
a week. There's times I was doing like two weeks straight
Wow, and then I take a few days off, you know, um right
now I'm trying to get back to the like Four
(17:34):
to five day a week, you know but
It's it's so comfortable, you know, as long as I don't tattoo
for like 12 or 14 hours Those days like I
definitely noticed that I'm definitely appreciating starting like
less. I mean conventions is different Especially I don't live here, you
know, so like I want to get my stuff done, you know, but
(17:56):
um I'm definitely starting to try to like balance
Yeah, you gotta go to four, dude. You said five, stop with that.
I'm just saying, after 30 years, man, I've seen so many people go down this road. Four
is the number. I mean, really, as me, I'm
dropping to threes and twos now. But it's 30 years
(18:18):
of tattooing for me. But four is a
good number, because I find it to be like, you need three days. One
is grocery shopping and house chores. And
then one is maybe something for yourself. And
then you need a whole other one just to go on a date night with your wife and throw
the ball with the kids. And then back to work you go. Well, I left
(18:39):
something out. You need a day of drawing. Yeah. So really, you're right. So
take one out for drawing. So you're back to five days a week, except one's
I also feel though now to social media, you
need almost basically a day for that. Or I mean, yeah, it's
for me, it's hard, but I'm trying because I do realize that's how
(19:01):
it is right now. Like that, like, you know, I'm an old dude,
I can complain about it and whatever, which I do. But
I do realize though it is important right now and that's that's how
it's going, you know and like So
I think slowly more time is going to take it up. But you're
(19:21):
right. I'd like to get to the point where I
feel like four or less will be more comfortable. But
I've got to say, I know it's bad. I look
at it like NBA players, the ones that play pickup games still
because they love it, I love tattooing. I know it
can kill me at the end. I still love doing it.
(19:42):
You know, I know it's like horrible to probably say that. I know it's
smart to, especially I got a family and everything, but like
I think, you know, good way to put it. Yeah. You mentioned earlier
the slow it's gotten slower. This is a big conversation in
tattooing right now. We're seeing it online. I see it on Instagram every day. I
(20:07):
So first and foremost, let me let you know, I'm not a
very educated person, but from what
I've heard from different people, conversations and everything, the economy
in general, I'm not even familiar with politics or
anything, but I definitely like, you know, I've seen shit
go up in price, groceries, everything. Um, you
(20:28):
know, obviously a lot of people, I mean, at
least from what I've heard from clients, like, you know, they don't have the, the
excess, like, cause that's means a luxury, you know what I mean? And they don't have the
excess funds as much as they did and whatnot. You know?
Um, I feel like even if someone that's slammed, like all
the time, they might not be suffering, but they've definitely noticed
(20:50):
something like, I know everyone has like,
You know, it's something, you know, so, um, I
don't know. But I also feel like, I feel like this year's
going towards a more positive direction. Like
I said, I talk, I talk with my brother about a lot and I
(21:11):
feel like it's going to start kind of getting like back
towards a positive route, you know, but I think so
Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely occurring. The economy has affected people's ability
to have disposable income for luxury things. That
is, we see it in my shops all the time. I've had many of my
clients be like, yeah, I'm going to have to take a break, tighten in the belt.
(21:32):
I'm like, huh, didn't hear that a few years ago. No one ever said
that. But they're doing that. I mean, also, you
know, let's face it, a lot of people became tattooers, which
is fine. I mean, who am I to stop somebody's dream? No, but
a lot did. And, you know, we, you and
I were part of an era of tattooing where it
(21:53):
was just so robust. There was not enough tattooers, good
ones to keep up with the demand. And so you could just be
slack on your Instagram and you could just not worry about a lot of
different business things that every other business has to worry
about. You know, if you're in an auto body shop, you
probably have to run ads in your local, you know, whatever you have
(22:14):
to have a budgeting. You have to keep track of your Yelp reviews. This
is what regular businesses have always done. And suddenly we're,
we're being forced to do it. And a lot of people are pissed
off about that. I'm more like, that's just, we're a mature
industry now. And we finally reached our mature point,
and we have to play the game like every other business. If
(22:36):
you're an owner, especially as an owner, shit, I go to more marketing
meetings now than I do tattoo consultations. And I
don't know. don't like it. Why do I do it? Because I
feel like I'm the shepherd of these younger
tattooers. Like if I'm not doing that, they're going to be hurting. No, absolutely. So
they're looking at me like, can you, can you make, keep us busy? And I'm like, yeah,
(22:57):
I'll skip another day of tattooing and go have a marketing meeting. No, right. Yeah.
For you, for, well, for me too, but for us, Well,
that's really good on you though, because, you know, um,
you know, there are, you know, owners are captains of the ships. There are
people that do that and there's a lot that don't. So, um,
like you said, like, I mean, Percy, like I said, I don't like it, but
(23:19):
I realize that's what it is. And so, you
Well, like I said, I hate to do it this way, but we had to go hard
and fast. What do you fear the
Like as far as tattooing or life? Life. Not
(23:41):
provided for my family or not, even if I
die tomorrow, not leaving them something. Yeah. And
Which, those kind of go hand in hand. If you
drown, that ain't going to be very helpful for the kids and the wives. Stay
out of the water, maybe, if that's a deep-seated fear
(24:02):
of yours. You live in Hawaii. You live on
And you have a fear of drowning. I don't know, man. The next thing I'll hear shit about is I
don't eat fish either. What are
you doing in Hawaii? They
got a lot of good beef over there too. I'm also Hispanic descent and
(24:24):
This is a contradictory on every level. Well,
hey, look, it was a pleasure to sit down with you, get to know you at
least a little bit. Again, your tattooing is
phenomenal. I think it's absolutely rad. Thank you. Anybody out
there who wants to check it out, really hyper-realistic color
work, please go check it out. they can find you at
(24:47):
cheeseburgerchampion on Instagram. They can reach
Awesome. Well, do that. I highly recommend you at least take a
peek and thank you for tuning in and we'll see you on the next one.
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