Love, Loss, and Life Lessons featuring Scott Campbell

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I think AI is going to like make rendering much
more efficient. You'll be able to present 20 different ideas to your clients instead of
just two. I think it'll speed up a lot of the process. But
I do think at the end of the day, it's another human's like
taste and like kind of concept that, you

(00:37):
Welcome lovers of art, creativity, tattoos. philosophy,
spirituality. I mean, if you listen to my show, you probably end at least one
of those or all of those. And as you guys know, I, I, I get all
kinds of folks on the show and a lot of them are artists and
quite a few are tattoo artists. And so that's, that's rad. I'm a
tattoo artist. So why wouldn't I want to do that? But you know, some stand

(00:58):
out much more than others. And some it's for
me, it's their portfolio, man, just their, their, the work they've created
as craftsmen, as tattooers, it's just the shining emblem
of what they are. Maybe they're quiet and shy, so
you don't know much else about them. The gentleman I'm with today has
a few layers to him that I believe are wildly interesting. He

(01:21):
is a tattoo artist of 28 years, so we're from the same generation.
We kind of started in that same era. Some of the folks I talk to are
tenure tattooers. They just don't understand what it was like in the late 90s,
early 2000s. I like that. So he's worked in the street shop
levels all the way up to honing himself into a very distinctive
Voice which is a really hard thing to do nowadays with so many people

(01:42):
on instagram and everyone's copying each other's work or emulating each other's
work and so to have a portfolio we like that. That's
definitely i know who did that tattoo he's got that going on he's
got his own podcast he's tattooed a lot of
celebrities mark jacobs johnny depp jennifer aniston. How
is tattoo cartel members. Leaders of nations, which

(02:04):
we'll see if he's willing to talk about that one. That's a little, you know, VIP style
stuff. So he was the owner of save tattoo, New
York city for a long time, 2003 to 2020. He has
since COVID happened. He moved back out here to Los Angeles and he has saved
LA now here in Los Angeles. So those are just some basic highlights with
all that being said, please welcome my guest today, Scott Campbell. Thanks

(02:27):
so much for having me. I appreciate it. It just worked out. You know, we're up
here for the Pasadena convention. I am at least. And uh,
yeah, I told you the story. Somebody knew somebody that knew you and text you
Great. Yeah. I'm thrilled. No, I mean, I love your show. You know what I mean? Like you
always are, have such a thoughtful approach to everything. And I'm, yeah,

(02:48):
Thank you for the compliment and yours as well. One of the things I told you on
the way up the elevator to come up here tonight, today, Was a
you know i could tell by listening to your podcast and
other videos i found on youtube you're looking for what the real cause
of things are you're not a surface thinker you're digging underneath that
try to figure stuff out relationships emotions. the

(03:09):
art of tattooing, industry of tattooing, all the things I heard you talk about.
So that's kind of me too. Like I'm fine sitting here and just doing a
play by play of your career and that's cool, but I'm always
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I heard you doing it. So I'm like that
guy, I definitely want to sit down with Scott and it didn't know it'd be now,
but here we are. So cheers to that. Right. Hey everybody, just want to take

(03:31):
a moment and give a huge shout out to my sponsor,
Sullen Clothing. If you're a fan of tattoo
art and art in general, they make some of the coolest t-shirts, hoodies,
and hats with some of the best art from some of the best tattoo artists
in the world. Check them out, sullenclothing.com. Ryan,
Jeremy, good friends of mine. Thank you for your support. And now back to

(03:54):
the show. I do want to get deep as I just said, but maybe it would be fun
for me and everyone listening just to hear a little bit about how
you got where you're at. I mean, we're tattooers, unusual thing
to be very uncommon thing to be as an artist, maybe getting more common,
but still a bit oblique. So maybe we could just hear a little, you know, bring us to
your journey, your young man and stuff's happening and somehow you end

(04:15):
up art and tattooing and, and now you're here in LA doing what
Yeah, I mean, I feel like, you know, I happen to bond tattooing like most
tattooers did where we just didn't fit in the world. You
know, I feel like tattooing is kind of like the this big metaphor for
the, you know, the misfit table at the high school lunchroom. You
know, we're like, I don't know. I don't fit in with the jocks. I don't fit in with the preps. I

(04:35):
don't fit in with those. But like, there's this one table of miscellaneous, you
know, and I feel like tattooers are kind of just the miscellaneous people that
found this their way here. But yeah, I was, you know, in the 90s,
probably why you call your shop saved. Yeah, well, we were like saved from
having to have real jobs. But yeah, you know,
in the nineties, I was just a little grimy punk rock kid and,

(04:57):
you know, would make my burrito money from,
you know, painting leather jackets, like everybody, all the, all the
punks, a little like battle jackets, you know, I do the little like white out. you
know, Motorhead logo or whatever on the on the back. And
then from painting jacket, jean jackets and leather jackets just ended up
carving pictures in people's arms. And, you know, did it a

(05:17):
few times and then started, you know, charging money for
it. And, you know, then swindled my way into a street shop and
You found my way from there i want to pause you because i heard that swindling stories
said somewhere else it was that you had done. Six
or seven or eight tattoo done more but you pick the six or seven eight that are
your best and you knew getting a job or of

(05:40):
any kind was tough with that level of work in portfolio so you walked in
and told the guy. You were a full-fledged professional tattooer,
I've been tattooing years. Years I've been tattooing in Texas, in Houston, Texas,
at this shop that nobody's ever heard of. But yeah, the airline lost my
luggage. All I had on my camera was the last seven tattoos I did, and here's
those photos. Like, are you looking for anybody? And

(06:07):
It worked. I mean, I just like that part of
tattooing. There's a little bit of pirate gypsy vibes always flowing through
Oh, for sure. It's kind of cool. No, I mean, it's definitely like a, you
know, a scrappy, like I remember at that time, you
know, I got a tattoo machine. I had been getting tattooed by Juan
Puente. I worked with Juan for a lot of years. Juan's one of the best humans.

(06:27):
I mean, hands down, you will not find anyone in the world that
I gotta stop you there, because I haven't had a chance to give him a great compliment, and I want to do it right
now. Juan Puente, if you ever hear this, and maybe I'll just send
you a clip of it, but I started working at Avalon Tattoo in San Diego,
Juan was there, and Juan was one of the people who was really in

(06:50):
If you had one, oh. Yeah. And, uh, but really the
biggest thing was when he left Avalon, he told the owner, Patty
Kelly, if anyone calls for me, you send him to Aaron. And
I was just kind of getting my, and all of a sudden I was busy. It was all of
Juan's clients. So I kind of like, Oh dude, a huge thank
But yeah, he's an amazing dude. He told me, you know, I had like a couple

(07:12):
of nationals machines that I got out of the back of, you know, the
National Catalog, but my first real tattoo machine I
got from him, that was like my big purchase when
he was at 222, you know, and that like. With Eddie Deutsch. Yeah,
Yeah, no, I got to San Francisco a little bit, a

(07:35):
little bit after that. I landed in San Francisco in like
98, 99, but you know, I got tattooed by all those guys, by Rasher and Sylvia and all of
Yeah. Yeah. I was scared of that place. I ran to San Diego. I'll be

(07:58):
Yeah. No, it was a very small fish in a really big
pond. But yeah, but Juan, he sold me my first real
machine. He's always been like just a guiding light. Just
morally, artistically, technically, like he's just, he's
He is, he is. So we were going down this journey. Is there

(08:18):
I mean, yeah, there's been so many chapters. So I started tattooing, you know, and that
was when, like, I remember starting tattooing and all I wanted to
do, like, my life's ambition was just to do a decent
Tweety Bird for 60 bucks. I was like, if I can just do one
little Tweety Bird or Tasmanian Devil a day, I can live off
that. You know, I can survive. And that was, I just like, I wanted to
do the cleanest fucking Tweety Bird I could. You know, and from there,

(08:41):
just, fell in love with it. I mean, you know, like it was, you
know, it was late 90s, like street shop culture, you know,
just like making your own needles till 3am and dealing
with drunks. And, and, uh, but I loved it. You know what
I mean? It was like the most free I've ever felt. And then yeah, from
there, you know, I got to travel, you know, like from

(09:02):
picture machine, I met Mao and Kathy who were in Madrid
and went and worked with them for a while. And, you know, then we just travel all
around anywhere. that would accept me I'd go work.
And then I landed in New York at Eastside Inc. Back in the day when
it like Andrea Elstam was still there. And that was like, I
didn't realize what a city was until I landed in New York, you

(09:22):
know, like I was resigned to just be this wandering gypsy
kid forever. And then I landed in New York. And I was like, Oh,
this is a place where you can sit still, but still feel like you're moving,
you know, because it's such a river of humanity, and just fell in love with it. And then,
you know, ended up opening up a shop. And then once I opened a shop, that's
when it turned into like a career, you know, all of a sudden, people knew where

(09:43):
to find me. I started, you know, tattooing all
these like really, you know, powerful creatives in downtown
New York, at a moment when New York was like the center of the world, you
know, I didn't even realize it, then did a lot of like fine artwork, you
know, was really kind of focused on doing fine art. And that
was a wild kind of transition. Yeah, and then kind of

(10:06):
But tattooing stuck with you. You're bouncing all
Tattooing is it. I mean, you know, like like most people who
have done it so long, like I've tried to quit tattooing 10 times, but
it's like it's my hands know how to do that better than anything else.
Yeah. Well, that's cool. And I know we're, we're, you know, there's a

(10:28):
lot of crazy stories wrapped up in there. I'm sure along the
way. Same story. You just told my story. We could just, you know, I
could say that's my story. Yeah. Similar. I mean, different. I guess I settled down.
You traveled a lot more. That's different for me. And we'll get
into what tattoo means to me and you, mostly you today, but once
you really start to feel that, it takes a few years for you to start
sensing this deeper level of something happening, and then a few years later

(10:52):
you start recognizing it and being able to even articulate it. And
now for me, after 30 years, I still don't fully grasp it, but I'm,
for me, 100% convinced extremely beautiful
and powerful art form. And I don't think I could
replace it with painting or... Hey, look, you're a painter. Crayola
is one of my best buds. You're rad. I'm not saying tattooing is better than

(11:13):
painting, but for us, I think we felt that and we still feel that.
Yeah, I mean, I can I have a lot to say about it. I mean, I love
tattooing. You know, I feel like it's one of the last real like folk
art, you know, like it's, it's beautiful for
it's like intimacy, and it's spontaneity. And
you know, the, the kind of the fact that it can't be

(11:36):
mass produced, you know, but at the same time, like the things
that make it beautiful can make it frustrating to build a life around it.
You know, like you see our cultural relevance, like tattooing culturally
is like so you know, like on Instagram, like, even, you know, people would
know tattoos in Ohio, you know, follow tattoo accounts, you know,
because it's it's so engaging. and romantic, but we

(11:57):
work like plumbers and electricians. We just sell our life by
the hour. It's not like a singer or
a songwriter or a painter who will write a
song, create an image, and then that song will
live a life. They'll be like, oh, they're going to make royalties off of that.
The bigger the cultural relevance of that song, the more revenue they

(12:18):
make. Whereas us, it's like, you know, it took three hours. Like you
would never go to a songwriter and be like, Oh, like how long did it take
you, you know, to write that song? And you're like, ah, I wrote it, you know, two
hours on an airplane or sitting on the toilet. And I'm like, cool, here's two hours of your
time. Like now we're going to, you know, it's, it's interesting seeing
like how culturally powerful we are, but the ceiling
is still pretty low compared to other creative mediums. Yeah, I agree.

(12:41):
I just, that's why I sometimes refer to it as a craft because I feel like,
yeah, it's like a craft. Like you don't meet many people, craftsmen in
general that are, live in the life of a famous painter
Yeah. When I say folk art, I don't mean it dismissively. I
mean that with a sense of honor, because there's a purity to
it. The fact that tattoos don't have resale

(13:04):
value makes it pure. If I do paintings or
sculptures that sell, I'm worried
about what happens if they go to auction and the resale value. There's all
this pressure on it that can limit it. Whereas a tattoo, all
that matters is that the person who stands up and looks at
it in the mirror is fucking psyched. That's it. But

(13:25):
that's a really, it's the most gratifying thing I do. I'll
paint a painting and somebody will buy it and I'll be like, oh cool, you bought that. But
if I do a tattoo on somebody and they get up and they're like, tears
in their eyes, they're like, I love it so much, that's the best feeling in
You have one fan for that piece of art for life, for
their life. But man, they are loyal. Okay, you're doing right. Why

(13:46):
wouldn't you be? It's so personal. A painting, you can, you
know, you can sell it or give it away, but you know, that's
It is. It is a weird job. It is. I love it.
Yeah. There's something going on there. Energy exchanges and
strange things occur during tattoo sessions. I do a lot of large work.
A lot of my clients are back, butt, legs. So Three

(14:09):
years with somebody off and on. That's a relationship. Dude,
you know everything. Like I'm telling them my problems. They're telling me
their problems. Yeah. I look back on what was so
beautiful about it. And it's really my friends that came out
of that. The people I got to meet, I never would have met. any of these
folks. I probably wouldn't have met you today, you know, if it wasn't for it. So that, the

(14:29):
relationships that came out of it is the thing I like the most. Why I did the show,
because I could highlight the relationships that came out of
it. Right. And portfolios, it's cool. I'm proud of my
portfolio, but it seems secondary to that. Yeah. Yeah, well,
look, so on that note, you know, this idea of
tattoos and their non permanency. And
you met, you said it earlier, like everyone talks about the permanency of tattoos, but

(14:52):
in reflect, you know, relationship to the art world, it's actually not
very permanent, you know, sculptures and paintings and all these other things people make last
Centuries. I mean, I have sculptures
in museums that'll be there longer than I'm alive. You know, when
people talk about tattoos, they're like, Oh, you know, but it's permanent. I was like, it's not

(15:13):
I was like, I was like, if you have the ego to think that you're permanent, you
know, then you might think that way. But I'm like, you know, I'll do a tattoo and
it goes and gets sunburned or run over by a bus or something, you know, like,
It is. Yeah, it's a good way to look at it. But the thing that I heard you talk about on another
podcast i believe was you as an artist as a
young artist you know this call

(15:35):
cd call perfectionism whatever was happening free this is a common story
for a lot of artists you have an idea in your head to go to put it on paper, it
doesn't ever come out like it's in your head good luck with
that but in so it's frustrating you scrap it and then
you never finish anything right never finishing anything. But this idea
around how, as an artist, developing tattooing

(15:56):
forced you... Tattooing is my Ritalin, for sure.
Well, you have no option. You can't throw it... Yeah, I, for sure,
was one of those ADD kids in the 90s, you know, that they just
fed Ritalin to. And I did. I had the attention span of a gerbil. I'd
draw something, I'd start halfway, but it wasn't until I
started tattooing that I ever really finished a piece

(16:18):
of anything, you know? Because then it's like, I didn't
mean it to be that way. And then, um, you
know, but if I'm tattooing a dragon, I get halfway and I have that same reaction. You
know, there's a guy who's going to knock my teeth out if I don't do a good job. So
it's like, I got to, I got to knock this dragon out of the park. So like, I

(16:39):
suck it up and be like, you know, like I'm having that internal panic, but
I, I get through it. And by the end of it, I wipe it off and I'm like, it's not exactly
what I envisioned, but like, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I'm pretty proud of it. I
am. And like going through that process a thousand times,
you know, like finally burned it into my head that like, Oh,
Oh, a creative act is a leap of faith. You

(16:59):
know what I mean? Like, like your initial idea is just a place to
start. It's never, it's very rarely the final product, you
know, like it's just, that's just what nudges you into motion. And
Yeah, no, that's a big one. You know, yeah, I think that

(17:20):
wads people up a lot, you know, when things aren't going as
they visualize them to go. And oftentimes, if you're just patient enough, it's
probably going somewhere better. Yeah. Just ride it, you
know? And it's just cool how you struggled in that area.
I think in the same talk, I heard you talking about relationships. You

(17:40):
I'm not good at it. Yeah. Like dating's rough. I mean, I love, love,
you know, we were talking about a little bit before, but yeah, like I've always
been, uh, you know, like in the tattoo shop, you know, when like Tom
and Jenny come in and, you know, Tom's like, Oh, I want to get Jenny's name. You
know, she's like the love of my life. You know, a lot of times the tattooer will be
like, well, wait, are you sure? Like Jenny's the one how long you guys been together? And

(18:02):
there's like a spiel you give them. Like, I've always been like the
opposite. Whenever you're like, if you love Jenny today, fucking do
it. Let's tattoo it. Let's do it bigger, like whatever. And yeah, because it's
I think there's a value in giving yourself to something completely, whether
it's a relationship or work of art, like to
develop the ability to dive into something headfirst, not knowing

(18:23):
how it's going to end up is really powerful and like
one of the most courageous acts ever. I always celebrate people getting,
you know, significant others' names tattooed on them because it's, yeah, the odds
are fucking stacked against you. Like there's a 99% chance you're
not going to live happily ever after. But better to have
tried and like really done it than to, you know, be 50 years

(18:44):
old and having never really given yourself to anything. Like I got, you
I've got an ex-wife on me. Yeah, yeah, I felt the same way and
in tattoo shops when I was younger a tattooer and everyone's trying to it
was like the spiel everyone got I was always the guy like sure where
Yeah, I thought it was Jenny sounds lovely I also like I thought it was so cool

(19:05):
to be a dude with a bunch of ex-girlfriend names on you I'm like, that's fucking hard.
Yeah, let's do it If you want a new one next week, we'll put a red line over
that one. Give you another one. I just didn't see it that same way.
And now I think naively enough, I think there was a part of me that
was feeling what you just articulated. Yeah. The idea of
like, look, you're, you're obviously super pumped

(19:26):
on this person right now. Enough to come in here and ask for the name to
I feel honored to be a part part of that love, that honeymoon
phase, exciting. You're just obsessed with
this person. I feel honored that I get to put her
name on you. And be a part of that experience. Yeah, I'm excited too.
Feel the energy coming off of them. Yeah. And

(19:48):
so for that reason, I was like, let's go. This feels good. You're in a good mood. I
can't wait to do it versus, you know, There's some tattoos where they're
sad and melancholy. You have to do those too, but this was a whole other thing where I'm
Yeah, in any creative endeavor, caution rarely serves you
Well, you know, earlier we were talking about your relationship,

(20:08):
the mother of your children, and you said
it was a really interesting story, and maybe I should just let you tell it,
but I don't even want to say what you guys ended up doing, because it's such a novel
idea that I'd never heard before. But maybe you could just, because I think it
relates a little bit back to what you're talking about here, which is
if I could just sum it up before you go is not only do you have to have enough

(20:29):
courage to get that ball rolling and take that leap of faith to try
an idea that you don't know if it's going to work out. It could be love, could be a business, could
be a drawing. You also most likely at some point
have to learn to accept how it's going or where it
So that, that's the real courage, which I think when you tell this story,

(20:50):
that's what I hear in it. Like what beautiful courage to
just not go into the auto responsive. This didn't go where
I appreciate that. You know, cause I think, you know, it's so easy
to have, you know, divorce tainted with,
with a certain amount of guilt, especially when there's kids involved, you know, cause you don't,

(21:11):
You never walk down the aisle being like, you know, expecting to
get divorced one day. You know, my ex-wife, Lake Bell, if
anybody's looking for an ex-wife, she's the best ex-wife in the world. She's amazing. But,
um, no, you know, it's like it is that, you know, like we were
together for 10 years and there's no part
of that that I consider a failure. You know, I fully see it

(21:32):
as like a successful marriage that ran its course. We first
like said the D word out loud in 2020 when everybody
else was splitting up. And, um, You know, we had two
kids at the time. And when we first said the word
divorce, I think we both envisioned what that
meant to other people and be like, Oh, now we're gonna be like that family, or now we're gonna be like that,
like, fuck, like, do I have to hate you now? You're like, are we gonna fight over everything.

(21:55):
But one of the things we did that was so powerful was
we had a divorce ceremony. you know, our
therapists that we were working through, you know, I mean, we still go to
therapy every other week, every other Friday, we still do therapy. We're still
raising kids together. Yeah, you know, just to like get stuff out. But we did a
divorce ceremony where, you know, it was like just the

(22:15):
bookend to us getting married. And, you know, we had our witnesses
there, like our best friends there. And, you know, we sat there
and like held hands and looked in her eye and just be like, our lives are
inextricably connected through our children. And like, that is
the priority of my life. And I was like, When you're on your deathbed, I will
be there. There's no part of this next chapter that

(22:37):
doesn't consider you. And the feeling was
mutual. And I'm so grateful for it.
It took a lot of time and patience and energy, but
I really feel it in our kids. you
know, like, like, I would never say anything bad about their mother. And she would never say
anything bad at me, because like, my kids need to feel like they have the

(22:58):
greatest mother in the world, you know, and it's super important for
me. And, you know, like, even if you reduce it to basic math, you
know, it's like, my daughter's, you know, 10 years old, usually turning
10 next month. So like, you know, when she's 18, I
mean, from what I know of her now, she's going to be out the door living in New York, you
know, the moment she can, but you know, from 10 to

(23:19):
18, like that's, that's eight Christmases, you know, I get with her at home. And
if mom and I can kind of coexist and
collaborate and have all those together, I get to be a part of all eight of them. And
if we can't, if we have to split everything down the middle and like, then I
only get four more Christmases with my daughter and like, I can't, I'll do

(23:39):
Beautiful dude. Anyone out there, if you're going through that divorce,
a divorce ceremony. Redefine what
the relationship will be after you guys aren't
romantically involved anymore. Because there's so much more,

(24:00):
That's just paperwork. It really is about the children. Because you
are connected for life, and your bullshit, if you can't figure it
out, we all know this, but I'd never heard of anyone really consciously
articulating what it would look like after the divorce, and being
forgiving enough, and kind enough, and honoring the
first 10 years. It's always baffling to me how someone could love somebody

(24:22):
for so long. I mean, for years telling their friends
The flip there was always so strange. Yeah. But if you dug down
deep enough, you found that I figured it out. I mean, there's resentment because
he- Yeah. I don't know. Maybe sometimes there is
a reason not to have a divorce ceremony, right? What I'm hearing from you

(24:44):
is I'm assuming there wasn't massive tragedy and
Yeah. I mean, I'm grateful. You're like, yeah, there was no foul play, you
know, no one was like, no one, you know, was betrayed, you
know, and, um, But even if there is, you know what I mean? Like there's like, there's,
we're humans doing the best we can, you know what I mean? Like, and, and
even if, you know, my ex-wife was a dick,

(25:07):
you know, like it's still, it's worth, I mean, it's funny. Cause like now, like, you
know, in dating as a dad, you know, I've gone on dates with
single moms who just talk shit about their ex-husband the whole time. And
I'm like, I'm like, you have a little kid here, you know what I mean? It's
not about you. Yeah, he's a dick. Yes, he did you wrong. Yes.
Do you want to be right or wrong? Or do you want to acknowledge that this is this

(25:28):
kid's world that you're curating and creating? So
it's like, what's the emotional environment you want them to see
I'm not sure like it is. Yeah, therapy helps, whatever. Interesting
though. I like that. That was beautiful when you told me that earlier and

(25:48):
I had to bring it up. So sorry to put you on the spot, but I know you sound okay
with it. Yeah. I'm proud of it. Yeah. Well, and
you know, this podcast, Stupid Things for Love. Yeah. Is
it, I've only heard of couple. Is it, Are
I'm not trying to do anything. I mean, it's like a creative act.

(26:09):
I'm like, I don't know. I only know step one. I don't know what step two
and three are. And yeah, the name of it came from a title
of an exhibition that I've always really loved, which was the
smartest things I ever did were stupid things for love. And
I think similarly, you know, to the reason why you're here is that, you
know, so much of what our job entails is

(26:30):
emotional and connection with humans. And but yet,
the way our craft is broadcast to
the world is just through a little photo on instagram you know
and you're like there's so much more like there's so much more beauty and depth to
like what i do during my day than just that and it's a
it's this desire to kind of put that out there you know because like we you

(26:50):
know like we were talking about with clients like you know, in order to really
do your job, like you have to sit there and connect with people. And if you connect
with someone, pretty much anyone for 45 minutes, like you
can't help but love them, you know? And I just, I found myself
appreciating so many people that I wouldn't have
given the time of day if I passed them on the street, be like nothing in common with

(27:10):
that guy. And then you sit down and you're like, Oh my God, like you've
lived a really beautiful life, you know? And I just, I would never consider it
if you didn't want this rose on your arm, you know? So just trying to like, have
that be a bit more of what I put out in the world instead of just the
Yeah, we did talk about earlier, same for me. I'm trying
to do the same thing because there is so much more to this beautiful

(27:32):
art form than just the end result, which is the tattoo. There's all
the stuff you already mentioned. This is a good platform to sit down and talk
with people. I have some of my clients on, you know, and it's always
kind of fun. You've done a few years with, and we get to have like
this moment where we acknowledge each other's love for one another. It's
kind of strange, like, I love you too, man. A little bromance.

(27:53):
Or even if it's a female, it's not sexual. It's
just, No one can
deny that there's this link for life and it's
a strange thing. So yeah, same thing and at
28 years I'm sure you're doing a lot of reflection on what it all meant
and what it all is. It's cool you came up with that.

(28:18):
Yeah. Well, luckily it's not too hard. I mean, 15 years
ago to fire up a production like I have here sitting in front of you was kind
Exactly. We need more of that. I mean, yeah, I
don't know if I should go down, I won't go down this, but it's just, you know, we are definitely living
in a world where we're physically, you know, everyone heading down

(28:40):
to the pub at night to share the ideas with one another is
fading. Everyone's on their phone. And, and so we got to
replace it with something. And I do think podcasts and long format conversations
I hope the attention spans can come along with them. You know,
Yeah, right. I mean, I don't know. I think
a lot of people that I know that listen to like a Joe Rogan episode that's

(29:04):
three and a half hours, it's like me of guys my age or, you know,
but will my 13 year old daughter be interested in
this show that when it goes an hour and a half, I don't know. I watch her
on her phone with the fricking screens flipping around. Sometimes I'm like, Oh,
you know, Yeah that that's a rabbit hole with you have kids too
and i've i don't even know if i want to go there and it's just too obvious. Yeah

(29:26):
we don't need those we all know they don't need them but how do you get them away and
how do you rip them out of culture but what i maybe wanted to move more
towards because i found it so novel and interesting was.
You know, a lot of people nowadays are kind of trying to figure out the tattoo landscape,
because it's shifting. And it's always been shifting, but I think you would
agree that the recent shift is dramatic and speeding

(29:49):
up or whatever. It's really changing fast. And I
don't mean that bad, because I could name a bunch of good shit and bad, like anything.
There's youth change, there's positives and negatives. But
you had brought up an idea that was so interesting to me, which
is, you know, maybe people just aren't getting as much tattoos because
the young people of this generation, maybe they don't identify

(30:12):
with their physical form as much because their image to the world
is projected through their social media platforms and
whatever else. So the need to like do your physical
Yeah. I mean, I see for sure, you know, cause like it came, you
know, I kind of put that little blurb out there cause you
know, I hear, you know, so many tattooers, you

(30:34):
know, becoming disheartened and frustrated with, you
know, this decline in business, you know, that things are slowing down and
there's so much anger pointed towards new tattooers, you know,
and like, you know, all the people tattooing out of their kitchen
and, you know, like ordering tattoo machines on Amazon and, you know, YouTube tutorials
showing you how to do tattoos and, And yeah, like

(30:55):
that's a bit of it, but also it really is, I think, and
maybe having children and seeing the difference between their childhood
and my childhood helps highlight this, but I do think people's
physical identity isn't as significant as
their digital identity anymore. You know, like, like,
you know, when we got tattooed, it was like, you know, you'd get a tattoo and you're like, fuck

(31:18):
man, like, let's go to the bar, you know what I mean? And like roll up our sleeves and
Like I want credit for this. Whereas now it's like, you know, you post
it on Instagram and um, that's where you get your credit. Yeah.
That's where you get your credit. That's where, that's your pride of ownership. You know, that's where,
that's where you get like your return investment. It's like showing it off on there, you know, as
people live, you know, their digital selves

(31:39):
take priority over their physical selves. They might not invest
so much time and money and energy into, affecting their physical
cells. Because you know, like, like a Snapchat filter that puts fucking
bunny rabbit ears on your head might do the trick instead of having to
go get the tattoo. But yeah, I mean, I definitely see that shift,
you know, in my kids, you know, I wish I could put that out there with

(32:00):
a solution, or, you know, some sense of optimism. But like, I
don't know what that means. But I just see things, you know, like, I see it kind of drifting in
It makes sense. I don't know. I'm trying to, I'm trying to reflect. Do I
see that too? Maybe I do. I mean, I definitely noticed
like people seem to, I mean, everyone's been slower. I
mean, I don't want to brag, but for some reason we're hanging on

(32:21):
over guru and I think it's just crazy marketing and you
know, I fight harder nowadays. I, you know, 10 years ago, every tattooer in
my shop had a six month waiting list and you know, It wasn't really
a concern of mine, marketing or Yelp. I remember telling
everyone, I'll never give a fuck about Yelp. Fuck them. We don't need those
people. That's the best part of this game is we don't have to cater or,

(32:41):
you know, any of that to those, but times change. I, yeah, I have a
bad managers and, and, you know, and I do a lot in marketing and.
I think that keeps us going, but the fact I'm fighting
in that way, maybe not fighting, but... But you're a special breed, you know,
you're not sitting around being resentful to change and
brooding and being angry and hoping that the world responds

(33:03):
to your anger and stops changing. You know what I mean? Like you read the room and
you're like, oh, okay, cool. Like if things are drifting there, you're like, if seeing who
the human is behind the tattoo designs is important, then you put yourself out
there and be like, this is the human, you know, this is who I am. And I think it's, it's
really powerful. And you know, like part of the reason why, you know, you
guys still have the lights on and are, you know, are doing well is

(33:23):
that, you know, you're, you adapt, you know, which not
Definitely not from our generation. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of the
newer ones, yeah, they don't even ask that question. They just open their shop
and they immediately pour money into all this, you know, pump
on a badge and they just know it's something you got to do. But our generation for
sure, there's a lot of people that didn't adapt. So I guess, yeah, I

(33:46):
am that type of person and maybe I'm a little, um,
unique in that way, but from my age as a 30 year tattooer, you don't
meet a lot of guys that are just, and I've always been that way. I mean, I was the first guy
to get a rotary. I was, Yeah i was the first guy to get an ipad i
was the first guy i just finished an ai me and ai fusion
art piece for a bodysuit show and you know of course i

(34:07):
was yeah i was i couldn't wait for people to give me shit and i
your audience is a lot of tattoo industry, which I don't, I don't do any
press in the tattoo world. You know what I mean? Like I'll do Vogue. I'll do like
interview magazine. I'll do New York times. But I was like, I, you know,
like it doesn't mean a lot to me what the tattoo world thinks of
me. You know, like I have like the 10 tattooers that I truly admire

(34:30):
and like, their opinion of me means the world, but like, the
rest of like, I don't need to be cool in the tattoo world. But yeah, it's,
you know, insane, like, they just bring that up, you know, like, because like, now there's the whole
like, loyal to the coil movement. And Like,
coil machines, nothing is as romantic as a coil machine. Like,
it's so beautiful, the simplicity of it, the mechanism,

(34:52):
but like, you know, I am at the point now where I'm like, I
will use what yields the best results, period, consistently, you
know? And like, yes, I have this one fucking Rollomatic
machine that it, like, is
the reason type threes exist. It is the most perfect, flawless thing.
I don't know what was in those springs or those coils. There is juju in there,

(35:12):
like, But at the same time, that machine will
have a bad day, you know what I mean? The humidity shifts. I'd be like, oh
my god, yeah, it's 10 degrees hotter, the machine's not running quite the same, or
I used it in a different power supply, and so it's like, when
the stars align, it's great, but with a, you
know, I use Bishop machines and cartridges, and it's like, It's

(35:33):
not as romantic, but it's fucking consistent and it works great,
you know, and I can have 10 different, you know, liner
groupings, you know, in one tattoo and not even think about
it. And so like my tattoos are better, you know, because
of that. And, uh, you know, I have, I built a museum case
from my coil machines, you know, like they still mean the world to me, but I,

(35:55):
you know, like I don't care, whatever, whatever makes the best tattoo. I'll
Same here. I grew up in Iowa with a bunch of farmers and my dad was
a contractor and there's just something in me that's just got this like
mechanic brain where I'm just super pure
function when it comes to it. I've never been romantic about it.
I do have machines I'll never sell and I do get the

(36:16):
romance. I don't tattoo with those machines. I tattoo with a
lot of Bishop stuff as well. But to me it was always just like my dad,
it's like, is there a new drill that can drill a hole in concrete faster?
I need that. You know, I got a building to build today and I treat
a tattooing like that, which is gimme whatever's going to work, work quick,
not even work and work quick. I could work as fast with the old

(36:38):
stuff. It's just consistency was my problem with the older
stuff is I didn't have the time or I didn't have
the. interest, really, in tuning machines. And
a lot of people really enjoyed that. I was just like, pissed. Yeah. Because I
had a tattoo to do, and this fucking thing is, it was
perfect last week, you know? Yeah. So that's what I just went, you know,
out of there. But moving and changing, I mean, God, that's life, right?

(37:01):
And we live in an era right now where that could not be more apparent
with everything that's happening in the world and the changes. We'll
get into some of this in a minute, but yeah, I've always been of that mindset. Let's
see here. You said this, and I loved it. Stoicism is

(37:24):
Because I immediately took... I was like, wait a minute, what are you
going to do with this? Because I love Stoicism, and I think there's so...
And I don't... I'm not a Stoic. I don't practice, but I've read some of the books. By
the way, now Stoicism is like a whole philosophical movement, but like... I think what you meant,
is not a strength. Yeah, like to be compassionate and
to be open and like to be able to communicate, like communicating is power.

(37:47):
You know what I mean? Like being, you know, stoic and, and kind
of quiet and brooding and, you know, tough is like, you're
not the most powerful person in the room. Like that you that will not lead to
thriving, you know, like, like, being able to
kind of emotionally, if you move people emotionally, that's it.
Like you, you like any, any piece of artwork, like

(38:08):
I've ever made, not always in this chapter of
my life. And there's a story about that, like, you know, if I
can make something that makes someone feel something that everything else
will fall in place, you know, I mean, like the money will follow every like, if I can move people
emotionally, That's that's the goal. But it I mean, you
know, talking about kids and childhood and careers and stuff. There was,

(38:29):
you know, a time in New York when I like
I was doing pretty well in the fine art world, doing better
than I ever thought a dirty kid from Louisiana would do. And,
you know, selling painting and sculptures. And I had these two big galleries
that were supporting my work. And I was doing well,
you know, I was living what I thought was the dream. But I was a lot

(38:51):
of the work I was making was kind of informed by what would
sell, you know, it was like the galleries were like, yeah, that's great. I see what
you're toying with over there. But like, just make this because like, we have these collectors that are
really excited about this stuff. And I was like, okay. Anyway,
my wife at the time was pregnant with our first child and
it was a couple months before she was born. And I remember

(39:13):
so clearly waking up from this dream. I had a dream that
I had died before my daughter was born. And
there was this, she was 12 years old and
she was going through my studio and looking at everything that
was in my studio, half finished or like getting ready to ship out. as
a way to try and get to know this father she had never met. And

(39:34):
I was on the other side. I was in the spirit world, trying
so desperately to explain myself. I'm like, no, no, no, no.
That's not really me. That was just a commission by this guy who wanted
me to make that. And I was so desperate to tell
her that that's not really who your dad was. And I woke
up in a sweat, and I was like, fuck it. I don't give a fuck about

(39:56):
money. I don't care if I never sell another painting. everything I
make has to be sincere, like everything I make, some little
girl has to be able to look at me like my dad made that. And
I woke up and I like quit both my galleries at
the time, like totally reassessed my whole career. And
you know, that was like 2014. I've

(40:18):
made more money since 2014 than I did my entire life cumulatively
Just from the moment I decided to... I would
not do anything that didn't feel sincere... Oh, right, right. Ended
up making me more money than accommodating the

(40:42):
Or just the fact that sincerity always
wins. It does. And people can smell it. When you
make an art, a piece of work that's for someone else or
that is trying to accommodate someone else's expectations, there's
no real magic there. There's no real sparkle. You're just a waiter giving
them the burger they ordered. Whereas if you make a piece of

(41:03):
art that someone has to kind of like, that's a little bit
over their head, you know, that they, they're like, I don't really understand it, but
there's something there. Then like people have to
learn something to appreciate what you've made. And
if people have to like reach a little bit over their head to get
it, then you're an educator, not an accommodator. You know what

(41:23):
I mean? Like, like you, you earn their respect because they're like, Oh,
I'm going to see what Scott makes next. And if I don't get it immediately, I'm going to
sit with it. Cause he's usually got something going on. And like,
that's a much more powerful position to being like, you know, just
Yeah. I mean, and even if, you know, Some people do
actually make things to serve the public.

(41:44):
You got your pop bands and some of them make a fuck load of money. Yeah.
So I think what you're in, that's fine. You've done better financially since you started
following your heart artistically. But even if the
I mean, yeah. That's only one metric of success. There's other
I like the word, you use the word fulfillment, right? Not never happiness, because

(42:04):
happiness is a, happiness comes and goes. I mean, I don't care how
rad your life is, you're going to have unhappy and happy times, but fulfillment
is a, is a nice word. It's, it's the ability to look back and
I mean, that's, you know, like, you know, tattooing as well, like we were talking about is
like, for as difficult and challenging as tattooing can

(42:26):
be as a job. Carving something in somebody's arm
that they just, and you see the electricity that runs through
Yeah, it's the best part. That's why I love it. Yeah, that's interesting.
I'm glad you did that. I'm sure a lot of other people are too. I mean, yeah, so far
so good. Follow your heart, people. We all know

(42:47):
it. I
Yeah. I don't know. I'm like, do you really not know what you want to do? Be honest.
I mean, yeah. You know, be honest. Cause most everyone, if they get quiet enough, it's like,
actually there is something I want to do, but it doesn't make any sense at all. Right. Well,
let's explore that. Try it. Um, that,
that kind of kind of leads to another subject that I find, I just can't

(43:10):
stop talking about it, dude. I, I, it's just like AI world.
It's, it's, coming into our, to existence, coming
into culture. Um, I mean, obviously it goes everywhere,
right? It goes to politics. It goes to you name a subject
it it's probably in it and going to affect it. But as artists,
I kind of focus on that compartmentalize that. And like

(43:33):
I told you earlier, I'm kind of working right now with this idea of, well,
maybe it's, it's something we caught out. We don't have to, but an
artist can play with as a, um, a novel generator,
so to speak. Like I took just an example before you talk.
He's wearing the shirt, turn around and show him that shirt. So this is
something I did for Sullen. Okay, so I sketched that very

(43:55):
roughly. And then instead of moving forward with
it, I put it into this AI generator that turns a sketch
into art and a bunch of different versions. And then I went through
them and I do a lot of filigree. So, and there was filigree in
the sketch, but then the way it was doing some of it was like totally novel
and new. Like even some of it I hadn't even seen in anywhere else.

(44:16):
So I was like, that's so interesting. And it was pretty, I
mean, none of them were final, like ready to serve. They
all had clunky bullshit happening at them. I'll probably end up being
able to fix that eventually. But these were clunky. So I kind
Well, and I kept changing it and stuff. But there was a moment where I

(44:38):
was like, is this? Is this not, is this okay? This
is, I mean, I'm an artist who just made a leap into
All right, let's do it. But yeah, the idea of cheating
isn't, you can't cheat. Like if you create something new,
like the result is the thing, you know what I mean? Like the idea that
there might be a tool that makes it easier to get there and make it better is

(45:01):
cheating. I mean, I feel like, I remember that
same feeling of cheating when I first started using Photoshop to
collage, you know what I mean? Like, oh, I'm just gonna take a picture of this skull and
take this eagle sketch and then Photoshop it together and
then trace it. And they're like, oh, that's cheating. And it's like, fucking what? You
know what I mean? But then when I first started tattooing, we drew everything on.

(45:22):
We didn't even have a fucking copier to make it tempered. So if I drew an eagle on your
chest, and you're like, I want it bigger, I got to wash it off. So
is Thermofax cheating then? Is Photoshop cheating? I
really think it's a tool. And it took me a while to
arrive at this, because I, like anyone else when it first came out, was like, oh
god, I'm obsolete. I'm getting replaced by robots.

(45:44):
But then you see, and it's like, they can't generate any new
ideas. It's just rendering, you know, in same
thing in not wanting to get left behind and taking some deep
breaths through that panic and being like, okay, like, this is a tool,
like, how do I use this as a tool? you know, like, I
found this way, you know, like, I can send you a link to like, the

(46:04):
kind of stuff that I've been using, but there's a way. So I took,
you know, a folder of 200 of my line drawings, you
know, and then, you know, use that created
an AI felt, you know, like generator based on that. So I'm
like, Okay, so now I'm like, Here's you can
input text or drawing like I'll sketch a scorpion and be like, okay, here's

(46:25):
a scorpion sketch. Now render that in this style. And
it looks like the two at the 200 drawings that I did to do that. So
everything that was input there came from me. Like there's no part of it
But there's other cases where the people aren't using their own art,
the generator, it's getting information from other artists around the world is

(46:47):
Yeah, but I mean look at like hip-hop, they'll sample other songs and then
remix it and turn it into this thing, like does that mean it's not a new song, it's
the same thing? Like no, you just take parts of this and assemble that I
think it's it's changing, you know, which we have to keep up with. But I do
think it comes back to like, what art really is,
which is new ideas. Like if you're just rendering the same thing

(47:08):
over and over, then like, yeah, AI is going to place you but if you're actually pushing
boundaries and like trying to come up with new ideas, then like you'll
Well there are some that say that right now currently and who knows what
day i have a theory that they have models that they don't allow us
to download on our phones let's just go up to what we got on
our phones are talking about this one right now it and how

(47:31):
it does it in. Three seconds. I
just, I can't put, you know, it searched the entire body of
history and gave me an answer in three seconds. It's, it's
scary, weird, but, but they say it will reach
a point and this isn't necessarily sentience, which I believe the Turin
test has been passed personally. I've listened to
some podcasts from dudes in that space. I think it's been passed. I'm

(47:54):
not making everyone panic. It's my personal opinion. It's a big argument. It's settled
here. It's under debate. Well, let's say it hasn't. I'm not talking about
sentience. I'm just talking about it will start generating its own
stuff and quit dragging from historical reference
points. So at this point, you maybe potentially have
a AI machine that is generating brand new

(48:16):
novel ideas that have no echoes or shadows
I never say that's happening. Yeah. And but
like with tattooing, like whatever the last tattoo you did, I bet you donut,
you know, somebody came in and they're like, Okay, like, I want this eagle, you know,
again, they're like, you're like, you want color and black or gray? And they're like, Well, what do

(48:36):
you think? You know what I mean? Like, oh, like I'm doing, you
know, I want a Japanese sleeve. Like, you know, I don't know, peonies
or cherry blossoms. Like, what do you prefer? You know, like the
thing about tattooing that I think gives us a bit of job security is
that like the human, like
the interaction between two humans is a huge

(48:59):
100%. Scott, I'm not even going there. We'll never disagree on
that. You know, this idea that you stand
I'm not saying I wouldn't want that. I mean, I don't know. Maybe
there's clients out there. Maybe there's whippersnappers that that would be used, but
like, I don't want that. Like it's still like, going

(49:19):
to get tattooed is fucking cool. You know what I mean? Like it
because like, like I get tattooed by people I love. I look like the bathroom
wall of some shitty bar. There's like fucking dicks and mom jokes all over
me, you know, but like, I get tattooed by people who I
like, like I want a piece of you, you know, it's not, it's
not just like, Oh, I want a rose and a clock and a lion, you

(49:39):
know, like, Like, no, I want to spend three hours with you. And I
want to come away with something that reminds me of like, fuck, I spent three hours with
him that one time. It was so cool. You know, and I don't know, I
have to. That's you. Yeah, that's me. I don't know, but I'm the
You got a seven year old that's spending all day with VR goggles on
and he wants to look like his avatar when he's 18 and there's a tube

(49:59):
he can stick his arm in and he pulls it out and he looks like the
Yeah, but I. I don't know, I... I'm just being devil's
advocate. Yeah, no, for sure. I'm on your side. I mean, believe me, look, I made a lot of
money doing tattoo designs in Grand Theft Auto, you know what I mean? Oh,
cool. Like that, you know, like I've sold tattoos to
avatars before and it was great, but I don't, I mean, in my kids,

(50:21):
you know, just seeing and kind of learning about the world they're growing up in, I mean,
I have to have hope, I have to. But like, I really see them being
aware that like the phone isn't reality,
you know what I mean? Like my kids really, I feel
like they really know the narrative of
like, oh, that's not healthy, it's not real. They'll

(50:42):
put it down and be like, I need to go outside, this isn't, and I...
They're developing a new, I don't know, what's that called, when you have to
learn your ecosystem around you so you'll get, if I lived in an environment where tigers
were around when I was a kid, I'd be very aware of where to go at night
and stuff, but they almost have defense mechanisms.

(51:04):
that are probably more adept than my own because this is a new thing
to me. I didn't build that shit when I was a kid. I think they will have
that. Not all of them. You're always going to have a kid that still walks out
at night and get eaten by tiger, even though all the kids knew not to go do
But to get back to the AI thing, I think AI is going to like
make rendering much more efficient. You'll be able to present 20 different ideas to

(51:24):
your clients instead of just two. I think it'll speed up a lot of
the process, but I do think at the end of the day, it's another
human's like taste and like kind of concept that,
Well, I'll put it, I'll, I'll add to it. Cause I arrived. It's funny. You're like,
I thought about this a lot and this is where you arrived. I thought about it a lot. I arrived in

(51:45):
the same place. Here's my prediction. These things are
going to, you know, they're already making Jimi Hendrix songs. It's so novel and
cool. I listened to them like this is fucking amazing. So
it's like this new shiny toy and everyone's very excited about it. And you
know, there are going to be people with giant LCD screens, a
wall in their house and AI is going to be, it'll be art

(52:05):
moving generated by i mean it's psychedelically cool it's
much crazier and more engaging than
a painting i could paint so but this is the novelty right and
then you go forward this novelty sort of wears off why because
everybody can have it okay with a little bit of money, you
can have these things and they're so cheaply made by

(52:25):
AI that it's easy to get a new fake Jimi
Hendrix song, it's easy to get new fake- It's not like substance, you
know, it's like- Well, that's why I think analog art is gonna return
with a vengeance and the real ballers that wanna have real things
in their life, the value of analog art will go, will skyrocket,
That's the real move. And that's what I mean, like, it's fun and it's sparkly, you know,

(52:47):
but in the same way, like, Yeah, cake is delicious, but
your body just knows, if you're like, we're not gonna eat cake all the time. You know what I mean?
It's good to go outside and feel the grass under your feet. There's a reason why,
even though AI exists, beaches are powerful, you know? Because sitting
with your toes in your sand is a real, I don't know.
I think we're just, we're excited about it, but I think

(53:08):
the kids are gonna pull it back in an analog direction. I
Well, I mean, I just, I guess part of this is therapy for me, because I'm really, you
know, I feel akin to you for the time you've
been doing tattooing, and I feel like we're a lot alike, and it feels good
that you agree with me there, because I'm fucking, sometimes I get a little freaked out, you
know? And not for my own career. My, my ship sailed.

(53:30):
I have enough set up. I'll keep doing what I do, but I do look
at this beautiful craft and just art in general and music.
And I'm like, is it all, you know, I get scared that it might start
I mean, believe me, I know. I mean, I, like my library is,
means the world to me, you know, the books I've collected over my career. And,

(53:52):
um, you know, sometimes like, you know, kids come in
the shop and I'm like, these are books. Let me show
you. This was like before Google image, you could open the page,
you know? And, um, and I'll pull like references out
and they think I'm fucking magic. They're like, Oh my God, that's the coolest thing. I was like, it's
in a book. It's not a Google image. Cause no one has scanned this book in

(54:17):
Especially if you've got the old rare ones. Yeah, no, there's some. Yeah,
that's what I mean. The whippersnappers still think I'm a wizard
Wild times we're in, man. I do a lot of hallucinogenics. Not
a lot, I shouldn't say it that way. I have them throughout my lifetime. Nowadays, I take them
intermittently when I feel the need for a real... It's more spiritual

(54:44):
I mean, I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't like my, if
I have to be social after 10 PM, I just nibble on mushrooms and
Yeah, that's a hundred percent. But my point I'm making is I
think nowadays I look at life, like it's trippier. than
some of my hardest acid trips. It's more,
if you really just bring it all in, what's happening at

(55:07):
light speed around us, I'm like, this is actually trippier than taking a
I remember I had this realization years ago. But
I remember, I remember when I was a little kid playing Legend of Zelda, you
know, and when you're walking around on Zelda, there's a little map up
top that like shows you where on the level you are. And I remember playing
that and being like, God, imagine if in real life, there was like this little map

(55:29):
that like showed you where you're going. And it was like, you know, 10 years ago,
I was like, oh my God, that's what GPS is. It's the little Zelda
Wild times, man. I also think about like,
Man, and specifically to tattooing, I'm like, I,
if I could, now that I know a little bit of the history and I think I've
can see maybe where it's going, changing in a certain way, I

(55:52):
think we hit the golden fucking moment. Cause we got
the taste of that early street shop. I
worked for Biker, like we all have our stories and then the Renaissance movement.
And now we're in this like unknown frontier. So what a great, that
It was great. No, I mean, I fully sober in

(56:13):
in acknowledging that, like, my relevance to the tattoo world was
like, mostly timing, geography, you know, like, if I had
come up now, nobody ever heard of me, you know, I'd get like, I get lost
in all that. But I was, you know, at a time when
the world was just starting to pay attention to tattooing, it was just kind of
coming out of the underground. I was the tattoo guy

(56:33):
in downtown New York at a time when downtown New York was the center
of the world, you know? So like, yeah, when Marc Jacobs wants a
tattoo, or Heath Ledger, or like any of these people wants a tattoo, they're like, oh,
Scott's the guy. Whereas now,
there's a million guys. But it's funny,
we mentioned earlier Tony Hawk, who has

(56:54):
become a really good friend and client. But I've always
thought about him. as such an amazing reference, you
know, it's like, Tony Hawk didn't start skateboarding, because he thought
it would turn into a career. He's just like, I just love this thing. Like, there's an
electricity here. And there's a power to it. And it's like, I fucking love it. And
he like, had a talent for it, you know, and is
the same thing. Like, you know, like, when we started tattooing, you were

(57:18):
not choosing the righteous path. Tattooing
was fully accepting like, I will never exist in mainstream society.
You were choosing the road of darkness if you became a tattoo artist. You
were really deciding to like, I'm not going to participate.
And then all of a sudden the world was like, wait, we think you guys are cool. And
But I think about him and skateboarding, then the whole world liked skateboarding. It's kind

(57:41):
of like that, where we were tattooers at a time when there
was no future in tattooing, and then all of a sudden there was. And it's like, oh my
I was, yeah, same boat. I'm telling people, I don't care

(58:02):
Dude, I remember, you want to talk about, One time being
in the shop, this is in New York, when I first moved there, and
this like skater buddy of mine, you know, it was like after hours, we
were just tattooing our friends. And I was like, Oh, what are you getting? And
I looked and he was getting this tattoo of a broken skateboard. And
it said less is more, stay true, stay

(58:22):
poor. And I looked at that And
all of a sudden realized I was like, Oh God, like I
actually don't want to be poor. You know what I mean? But it was then that I
realized I was like, Oh, like we're all these punk rock kids
projecting shame on success. I was like, I got to change that.
You know, I was like, I actually, I'm going to say it out loud. I

(58:43):
don't like rich people because I wish I was one, you know,
like I'm fucking jealous, you know, so I'm like trying so hard to, you
know, like to say that wealth is a, you know, is
like a vice or, you know, like a morality issue. But I'm like, I
actually just wish I had rent every month, you know, like it
would be nice to be comfortable, but it would like that was a switch where like

(59:06):
I met a number of shitty people in my life and some of them are really rich.
There's good people in every level. Yeah. And that was always a thing, you
know, back when I opened my second location, I caught some fly. It
was like, it was like an evil thing to do and have two shots. Why is it
shameful to have ambition? Because it's like, what is your, oh,

(59:29):
so what's it really about for you, Aaron? Oh, we thought you were about,
you were a core tattooer. Now we know, we fucking knew
But to me, why is it? That's like blue collar mentality. I
mean, I had that, I really had to like take deep breaths through
it. You know, like when I first started doing fine art work, You know, I'd
been in the trenches of like street shop tattooing for so many years. And

(59:49):
then I, I had this art show and it sold out,
you know, like, and I, it made this like
real grown up money. And it was, I was
like, so perplexed. I was like, but wait, how could I possibly make that
much money? Because I, I didn't suffer. You know what I mean? I just
had this working class mentality where it's like, if you want this much money,
you have to suffer this much. The idea of enjoying

(01:00:13):
something that also was valuable and produced money was like,
well, no, that's wrong. That's cheating. And I
I had my own aha moment with that too, where I realized in some subtle way,
I was in resistance to success because I thought it meant I
was something, it had no meaning at all. What I did with it

(01:00:34):
was what it meant. It was years ago for me, but I had that moment too. Cause
that's how we grew up to be successful was to be on
the other side of the fence. We're over here and they're over there. Stay
with, you know, it's that, but you don't see that in the
tattooers coming in nowadays. I do believe that that, yeah, it's not a
big, ballsy risk of being, you
know what I mean? It's more of a glamor and it's accepted. So it was, you're

(01:00:58):
illustrating a point that when we did it, you really had to be willing to
just die for it kind of vibe. Like, fuck it. I don't care. Let's
go. You know, that's changed. And that's, and that's fine. It's changed.
I'm not trying to act like we're cooler than those people, but it was an interesting time,
different than anything. It'll never happen again. Cool part of tattoo history.
I mean who knows there might be some weird creative like underground

(01:01:19):
movement happening now that we are dismissing as like Bringe
culture that you know will come into the spotlight in ten years
I tell myself every day. Don't be the old guy doing that Aaron And
maybe I accidentally will but I'll try and you will too I'm sure try your best not
to allow that to happen Whatever's new, bring it. Let me see it. Show

(01:01:39):
the old guy. I'm into it. What are you kids up to? Well, brother, this
has been fucking awesome. Getting to know you better. I
knew as I watched some of your work and obviously your tattooing is
amazing, but speaking especially, I was like, Oh, I'm going to love, I'm
going to love this guy. He's going to be one of my new friends. And I know we're going to connect on
many levels. So. I want to just say thank you for spending some time with me
today and sharing your history and your knowledge and your experiences through

(01:02:03):
this wild tattoo life. You're still living in relationship.
I'm not done yet. No, you're not. Let me ask you that. People ask me that all the
Right. I don't know. That's what I say. Yeah. Carpal tunnels and
blindness. I don't know. That's kind of how I do it too. And
then, you know, and who knows, even if my hands get shaky, you know, like

(01:02:24):
Tom DeVita, he was, he was trembling towards the end and he still, I, you
know, like, I still wish I had gotten tattooed by him in his later years. Like his
stuff was great. Yeah. I don't know. Like, you know, like I'm going to ride this ride
Good. Well, I for one will be happy if you do. And thank
you for coming in today where? Well, let me before one more question, is
there anything next? I always like to throw it out there. I don't know if you have a project or

(01:02:45):
something you're excited about. I mean, you already have a lot
I mean, you know, kind of like you, you know,
we're doing the podcast thing and trying to like, figure out
how to move beyond just the Instagram posts. I
really, I'm so frustrated and annoyed that Instagram kind
of owns tattooing. If there's any tech nerds out there, please replace

(01:03:07):
it. Please do something better. But I'm trying to put
out the emotionality of what we do in as
powerful a way as the aesthetic. I
think you're a great example of trying to branch out and yeah.
I have the same desire. Yeah. You know, I've had some, we don't, we don't have

(01:03:29):
enough time today, but I've had some wild ideas how to do that too, but
I haven't quite figured it out, but it would be cool to somehow create
something more analog that can't be duplicated so quickly
and so easily digitally, whether it be through photography or whatever. I
don't, I don't know. There's just, it's just a tickle of a idea at
this point. Yeah. But I do think something's coming where it's going to be this

(01:03:50):
cool thing that isn't just flashing around on your Instagram screen.
Change is the only constant. The only thing you can be sure of is it won't be this way in
Especially nowadays, dude. Yeah. Well, where can people
On Instagram, like at Scott Campbell's. The irony.
Yeah. That's the best way to get ahold of me and

(01:04:17):
I love it. Well, Scott, at Scott Campbell, simple
enough. You can find him there. You can shoot him a message if you want to get tattooed or
if you want to figure out what he's up to. Divorce advice, let me know. He's
got some good divorce advice. I'm not kidding. I'm not even joking when
I say that. All right, well, thank you so much. Everybody that
listens to the show, thank you. I think Scott agrees with me when I say

(01:04:39):
that it's like a weird thing to put yourself out there and
expose yourself on a very intimate level that just whoever's watching,
Yeah, oh, for sure. If you guys have made it this to minute 47 or whatever
If you're still here, you're my, I'm a fan of you. Please DM me
and tell me. We owe you a drink, yeah. All right, everybody, thanks for tuning in.