January 29, 2025 • 42 mins
The journey to becoming a professional tattoo artist can be long and filled with challenges, often requiring a delicate balance between stable employment and the pursuit of a passion for tattooing.
This is exemplified in the story of Angel Bustos, who began his tattooing journey in 1994 at a young age, inspired by his older brother. Despite his early start, Angel faced numerous obstacles that shaped his path to becoming a respected tattoo artist who brings 30 years of experience to the conversation.
Angel unveils the inspiration behind his graffiti-infused lettering style and the episode kicks off with a discussion about the importance of security and stability in life decisions, particularly in the context of family responsibilities and the unpredictable nature of a career in tattooing.
Aaron shares his own journey, highlighting the challenges of balancing a stable income with the desire for creative freedom as an independent contractor. The episode is recorded live at the Golden State Tattoo Expo in Pasadena, California, where Aaron connects with fellow tattoo enthusiasts and artists, setting the stage for a rich exchange of stories and insights from the tattoo industry.
Tune in for a candid conversation filled with personal anecdotes and reflections on the wild ride of a tattoo artists journey.
Chat Breakdown:
00:05 - Balancing Security and Passion 02:26 - Angel Bustos' Tattoo Journey Begins 04:25 - Tattooing in Middle School 06:03 - Brother's Influence and Passing 10:12 - Tattooing as a Passion, Not Just Income 12:03 - Challenges of Quitting a Stable Job .css-j9qmi7{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-direction:row;-ms-flex-direction:row;flex-direction:row;font-weight:700;margin-bottom:1rem;margin-top:2.8rem;width:100%;-webkit-box-pack:start;-ms-flex-pack:start;-webkit-justify-content:start;justify-content:start;padding-left:5rem;}@media only screen and (max-width: 599px){.css-j9qmi7{padding-left:0;-webkit-box-pack:center;-ms-flex-pack:center;-webkit-justify-content:center;justify-content:center;}}.css-j9qmi7 svg{fill:#27292D;}.css-j9qmi7 .eagfbvw0{-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;color:#27292D;}Mark as PlayedTranscript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
For me, security was important. For my wife, security was
important. I wasn't just going to quit a job to go into a,
you know, flexible income. You know, we need stable income. You probably had healthcare. Exactly.
I was already incorporated in 2002. So I had health
insurance. I had 401k. You know, there was
no way that I could drop all of that. Even when I had my second son
(00:20):
at 18. So I had two kids at the time. I just
bought a house in 2019 or 2001. There's no way, you know,
I was like 19, 20 years old. You need to know what you're going to make every week. Exactly. I
have bills, I have kids, I have responsibilities. And it was important for my
family to be able to feel stable. Right.
And tattooing was, even still, it's not stable. Like it's not
(00:41):
It's still kind of an entrepreneurial act,
independent contractor. No 401k, no health insurance, and
no guarantee you'll ever stop working. Hello,
(01:11):
friends, lovers of tattoo. Welcome back to Chats and Tats with me, your
host, Aaron Gale de la Vedova. I've never said
my middle name on the show before. Yeah. Yeah. First time. My
middle name is Gale. Yes. I could be a girl on
paper, which is awesome. I love that. Anyways, I'm on
a weird tangent. Don't know what I'm doing right now. I am sitting in studio
(01:32):
today here in Pasadena, California. I'm at the Golden State Tattoo Expo,
and I'm having the distinct honor of meeting a lot of great
tattooers who are here for the same reason. The gentleman I'm with today, he's
from Gurney, Illinois. He's been tattooing for 30 years,
same amount I've been tattooing, so I'm sure we're going to know and share a
lot of stories in common. And what does he do? He's a custom
(01:54):
freehand lettering. which you'd have to go and check
his workout because I don't think you fully understand what I'm talking about
here. It's a kind of a next level lettering situation that
he's doing over there. Really dope. Super rad. And
you got to check it out. But he also does black and gray realism. He
was telling me earlier, it's like a 50 50 split. But amazingly talented
(02:16):
with a kind of a unique story of how he found tattoo.
So I want to hear that story and a bit more. With all that being said, please welcome
my guest today, Angel Bustos. Thanks man. Good
to have you. Thank you for taking a little time. I know you're down there busy tattooing and
we found this little gap that we could hang for a minute. So, you
know, appreciate you being here. Thanks for having me for sure. But let's
(02:37):
get right into it. I mean, your story of, you
know, obviously today you are a highly respected professional
tattoo artist, but you've been tattooing for 30 years. And
what I just said is really only been the last 10, not
to say whatever you were doing prior to that didn't count. I'm sure you were
doing amazing tattoos before you went into a formal professional
(02:59):
studio environment, but there was a lot of years where you were not working in
that way. And I can tell you've got a story there.
So let's hear, how did it all begin? Where does a tattoo machine
end up in your hand? And how did that journey go to
So 1994, I had an older brother. He was three
years older than me at the time. Someone taught him how to make a homemade
(03:21):
tattoo machine and brought it home. I
was already an artist. I was already drawing letters. I had been drawing letters for
a few years. I think I remember like 10 years old in fifth grade drawing
like book covers, you know, paperback book covers that we
used to do. I used to draw letters on that and just names
and everything. So I was always drawing letters. He came home with the machine and he
(03:41):
was like, dude, you got to tattoo me. So I think my first tattoo
was my last name Bustos across his upper back, which
is like the worst idea ever. And it was shit, like it
did not, it was the most worst, like terrible tattoo. But that's kind of how we
I gotta say, I did one of my first tattoos on my brother
on his upper back. I forgot about this. I'm
(04:02):
halfway through this tattoo and I realized I didn't put rubber bands on
the machine. So the needles are just in the tube flopping
I'm like, this thing doesn't work as good as I remember it working. Yeah,
that's funny. I remember when I got my first coil, I didn't know how to use a
grommet. Metal on metal. Metal on metal. I was like,
(04:25):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, so 1994, you know, we started tattooing with
Homemade Machines. That's kind of how he moved around, kind of how he made
money. He wasn't really, you know, much of like a artist artist. He
was definitely a tattooer. I mean, he tattooed everybody in the town and knew
a lot of people and moved around that way, tattooed for money, tattooed
for like a place to stay, maybe weed, some beer, whatever, you
(04:46):
know. That's kind of how he moved around and, you know, me being his little brother, just
kind of moved along that same path, just tattooing
my friends, his friends. So we both tattooed
a lot back in the 90s. High school, I was in like middle school. I
(05:08):
Yeah, freshman year, walking into
So I gotta ask, you're tattooing eighth
graders. What kind of neighborhood are you living in,
I grew up in a middle-class neighborhood. Nobody was getting tattoos. It wasn't like that. It
wasn't like we were in the slums or anything like that. It was literally
(05:28):
just like either like family or like friends of my brother, you know, I'm
not really tattooing like 12 year olds or 13 year olds. It was
more like the older kids that were getting them, the 16 year olds, my brother's age,
that type of stuff. But then when I got into high school, we're a little bit older, we're 14 now
and you know, high schoolers, if you look at high school now, kids are
like tattooed like sophomore year, like full sleeves basketball
(05:49):
players are just, you know. So anyways, high school, do
a tattoo on some of my really good friends, walk into the school and be like, He'd show
it off and be like, damn, who did that? And then he'd be like, Angel did. Okay, so
let's go get some more, you know? So that journey, you know, that
was that path from like 94 to 2001. So
in 2001 is when like things changed. My brother got
(06:12):
sick and passed pretty, pretty fast. It
was like a, you know, two month illness from when
he got sick to when he passed. So it happened really fast. It's not like he was,
you know, just, you know, slowly, you know,
in that realm. But he
passed in November of 01 and everybody
kind of looked at me and was like, hey, you know, you gotta, you have to continue to tattoo. Like,
(06:37):
you can't stop tattooing. Like I said, he tattooed a lot of people, I tattooed a
lot of people. They were like, you just have to keep going to keep his name alive, essentially,
right? So back then I really didn't have any like other
purpose or other goal. I mean, we were just tattooing. Like I said, it wasn't like we
were doing big production. It's not like we were doing even quality big
tattoos. It was just tattooing at the time. Um,
(06:57):
that same year we had just got our first coil machine. So before
this, it's all homemade machines. All homemade machines. Rotaries, little
rotary motors. Rotary motors. Okay. We get them out of remote patrol car,
Walkmans, you know, train track sets or something or. Something,
And then, I don't know much about homemade machines. So the needle's like a
(07:18):
Oh, there were some evolution in that. So
that evolved over time. When we were doing them, we would wrap thread around
the needle, but not like you would use them in jail, where you would poke. And
that's where the needle would, that was like your needle depth, where your needle was
wrapped. We would wrap a needle, but only to stuff it inside of
a pen tube. So the inside of a pen tube where the ink is
(07:39):
held, it's like a plastic tube. We would just kind of force the
needle into that, and that's what would keep it stable. And then within
that, you would make the entire machine from that. So all the
work is a single needle production? Essentially, yeah. Yeah, there's no,
you guys weren't soldering, grouping, sticking together? No, no, no, no. We would, you know,
get a pack of sewing needles at the time. And sewing needles
(07:59):
comes in different sizes, you know, different gauges, right?
So we could only use like maybe two out of a pack of 30. So
we would buy new packs of... Just to get the ones
that you needed. Just to get the ones that we needed. And then, you know, we're constantly buying
those. So yeah, so we would make those. Actually, we actually, it's on
my Instagram, like a video homemade machine that we just made a
(08:20):
couple months ago. And it was a very nostalgic... Right,
experienced. It was incredible. After 30 years now. We
haven't made a machine, I haven't made a machine since, fuck, it had to have been
2001, right before we got that coil. So 23 years ago. So
you get your first coil, where? How? Website. Just
some website. Yeah, I mean I can. You remember the brand? I think it was Superior,
(08:43):
Superior Tattoo Supply. I don't think Huxbalding was.
And then, I mean, there's also like local shops. So you get your first coil machine,
you probably get some tubes and you probably get some needles that are not singles.
So now you've got some, some seven mags and shit. You must
(09:04):
I had no idea what I was doing. Like I said, I didn't even know how to use a
grommet, you know. So yeah, I mean, like I
said, everything changed around that same time. Like we got our first coil machine,
you know, my brother passing and all of this is new to me. I've always been tattooing, but
I've always had a job because I have two sons that
we had really young. So I was 16 when I had my first son. So
(09:25):
I've been with my wife since I remember we've been together for 30 years. When
I had my first son, I wasn't just gonna tattoo for
money. I really needed to work and get a job and support. So
I've been working since 95, 96. So
tattooing wasn't always like just a form of income. It was literally just
something I enjoyed doing on the side and just
(09:46):
tattooing my friends. Obviously like if you're going, if you're young in
high school and tattooing somebody, you're like the cool kid. So if I'm tattooing,
I'm just going to tattoo more often. Just tattoo, you know, just try to get better
at what I'm doing. You know, just doing letters on everybody. So
again, tattooing was never just for money. Tattooing has always been as a passion
and always been something just like, just to do. Yeah. Cause you could have dropped
(10:06):
I mean, you had a real job, you could have just walked away, but you just loved
Yeah. There's, there's no way I could ever have stopped. So then again,
my brother passing, everything changed. I was working in food. I
was working like Papa John's. I was a store manager at like 17. Because I
always wanted to progress. I always wanted to, you know, be a manager. I always wanted to make more
money or whatever. And then in 2002, just after my brother passing, I
(10:30):
left that industry, that food industry, and went into like corporate. And in 2002, I
got into like collections, like entry-level collections job for an e-commerce company.
And in 2003, I ended up transferring into the advertising department.
And I got into getting into web design and graphic design. I was, I
had always been a graphic designer from like high school. I learned how to use like Photoshop and
stuff. And in 2003, I got a job in advertising and got into web design. And
(10:52):
that had been my path along with tattooing for the next 20 years.
I mean, I just thinking of you, like, cause along this path, when
you're maintaining your real job and tattooing out of passion, the
industry is coming alive. You must have seen
it bursting around you. You must have known, like,
(11:14):
I can go it. Did it ever, like, didn't you ever have a thought?
Like, I wonder what happened if I just actually went to a shop and started working at
that level. I mean, I don't know where you were living. I'm assuming where you were
living, shops are popping up and people were making
Yeah. I don't think I knew the financial part of
(11:34):
the tattooing business at the time. I live in a town where we have, I
think the largest Naval Academy, uh, Navy base, uh, Great
Lakes is, I think it hosts a bootcamp for the
Navy kids. So it's a big Navy base and that's
where tattooing was like popular back then. Now
they're more, they're everywhere, right? But back then it was literally
(11:56):
just around the Navy base because that's where kids were getting excited.
So, you know, I had went into the shops but I was probably, you
know, 18 at the time, late 90s. And I was interested
in going and learning how to work in a shop and, you know, developing
that craft. But back then, you know, nobody was really looking at young
kids to be, to just take, take them in and give
(12:17):
them an apprenticeship. So I went into a couple and they kind
of just like, you know, push me away or whatever. And after
that, I was like, I didn't really need tattooing. So I just kept
my head down and just did what I was doing. I had already had a job
and I knew, for me, security was important. For my
wife, security was important. I wasn't just going to quit a job to
(12:37):
go into a, you know, flexible income. You know, we need stable income.
You probably had healthcare. Exactly. I was already incorporated in
2002. So I had health insurance. I had 401k. You
know, there was no way that I could drop all of that. Even when
I had my second son at 18. So I had two kids at the time. I
just bought a house in 2019 or 2001. There's no way, you know, I was like 19, 20 years old.
(12:58):
I just bought a house. You need to know what you're going to make every week. Exactly. I
have bills, I have kids, I have responsibilities. And it was important for my
family to be able to feel stable. Right.
And tattooing was, even still, it's not stable. Like it's not
It's still kind of an entrepreneurial act,
independent contractor, no 401k, no health insurance and
(13:23):
Yeah. So yeah, that's partly the reason why, you know, I
never really wanted to go into that field or
I get it. So then the question for me is what,
what's, why do you change your mind? When and why do
you change your mind? Well, okay. Did I
(13:48):
There was a lot within that 20 years, but I kind of
want you to understand that tattooing in corporate, in
I didn't, it wasn't like a... So you weren't just tattooing a little,
you were tattooing full-time. I was tattooing a lot. I wouldn't say full-time, but it
was a lot. Plus you still had your 40 plus hour a
(14:08):
week job. Yep. Nine to five in the office, let's say, and then, you
know, come home 6.30 PM or my appointments
to whenever, you know. So I worked a lot
for those 20 years. Wow. The last, let's
say, 10 were probably the most busy because, you know, I progressed.
I started to get better. And over time, actually, what really
(14:29):
got me, well, there's a couple of levels, a couple of steps.
But in 2015, 2014, the state of Illinois found out that I was tattooing out
of my home, sent me a letter, said, hey, you can't do that. If
you want a tattoo, find a legal establishment and do that.
So at that time, I was already, you know, I've been tattooing so
comfortably out of my house forever. And that just sparked an
(14:49):
interest in me to build my own studio or to open my own legal studio.
So I did all the research, applied to open a shop, built, you
know, reconstructed the shop, the space that I
found and built my own private studio in 2015. So
now I'm working still corporate, nine to five in
the office, but now I have, instead of going home to tattoo, now I have a private studio
(15:15):
Corporate, that's why. That's just incredible because, I mean, looking at your portfolio and
it's just shocking to know at this level of tattooing that you're creating. You're
still working your nine-to-five. I don't
know any tattooer at your level that has a job outside of tattooing. Maybe
Nine-to-five, web design, loved it. It paid well. Health
(15:37):
coverage was great. Who would want to drop that and give that up?
It's too stable. But I love tattooing, so I opened my private studio by
myself. Small 300 square feet space, and
I did that for nine years. And at a point, you know, we
had talked about, you know, my wife and I talked about quitting my job and opening up a
bigger studio, doing a full time in the past, you know, maybe 2018, 2019. I
(15:58):
had already been doing it for some years, but it wasn't the right time. You know, for
us, it wasn't the right time. We knew we needed to do more to
be able to live the life that we live now. Which isn't,
you know, we're still tattooers. We're not, you know. Your wife's a tattooer?
No, no, no. I mean, I'm still a tattooer. I'm not like, you know, a billionaire. So
in 2022, we talked again.
(16:19):
We decided now might be the right time. Both of my sons had
started tattooing. So I have two sons, 26 and 24. So
about five years ago, my eldest son started tattooing. He
also had, you know, I have a grandson. I have two grandsons. So
he too i think you just searching
for what he love to do you know he had the jobs you work like i did you
(16:41):
know here and there. All kinds of good jobs
but never really love anything so he got into tattooing so
now my space becomes a small space for two. And
it was only just built for one. He gets into tattooing full time. He
fell in love with it. Still tattooing today. Progression is
great. It's amazing. So now I have to make space
(17:02):
for two. My younger son also started tattooing. So now I
need to make my small space into three for three. So now we're in
there for like two or three years and it's just like, both of
them, my youngest tattoo is part-time, my
oldest tattoo is full-time. So it's just, the space was too
small. 2022 was, we were like, okay, let's
do this, you know, quit my job. Started traveling a
(17:25):
lot more, doing a lot more conventions, started to travel to Europe, but
also simultaneously trying to open up a bigger shop. So
it took about 18 months, nine months to get the keys, and
then nine months to build, and we finally opened up the Black and Grey Tattoo
Studio in March this year. So now I have a large 2,200 square
feet space, big enough for, you know, six, we could fit 10 artists
(17:46):
in there, but I have six stations, and that's where we're at now. Fuck yeah, man.
That must have felt good. I think I'm still like in
that honeymoon, you know, of feeling like it's so brand new for me.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I think I'm going to forever
(18:08):
That's cool, man. That's a, that's a definitely not. the normal path,
Well, congratulations on your, what's the name of the studio? Black
and Gray Tattoo Studio. Black and Gray Tattoo Studio. That's dope.
(18:28):
B-L-K-X-G-R-Y. That's cool.
That's cool man, well yeah, and it's cool on another layer too, like I
have children, I have girls, neither of them have any
interest in tattooing, I actually have an older son too, neither
did he, and not that I would ever make him... You
encourage them to do it, really. I just, hearing you, you're
(18:51):
working with your sons in this shot, it's like a family business.
That's gotta be cool to be able to, two birds with one
stone. You wanna spend and create memories with your children, but
It's an incredible feeling for sure. Definitely not something I take for granted.
You know, I worked a lot when they were young. You know, like I said, I did the office
thing and I went to the, either I was tattooing at home or tattooing at, you
(19:14):
know, the studio when I opened it. So I feel like we're getting a lot of that time
Yeah, working two jobs for 20 years, you gave up a lot of time with
your kids. Yeah, now you're getting extra time
at an age when most people are saying goodbye to their children. So
I mean the same thing with like us having kids young, you know.
(19:36):
We had our kids young and my son has his kids young. You know, he was 17 when he
You know, so, but they, that's, that's all they knew. And again, we
never even talked about them tattooing. It was never a thing, never a thing in my house.
I never wanted them to actually get into it because I know how unstable it is and
I know I don't want them to do it. I didn't want them to do it full time. It's not
a stable thing, especially with kids. You know, like I said, I'd worked it for
(19:57):
so long. I never wanted to do it, but you know, he fell in love with it, man. And
No, once tattoo gets into you, good luck getting rid of it. It's like,
it's like a disease, man. It's like golf. Oh,
I don't even want to, I don't play golf because I look at it and I'm
(20:17):
So you hit one good shot, man. You're hooked. Oh, degenerates over
Golf is a time consuming. I'm going to do golf when I am
not working as much someday. I'm going to be the old man golfer. Yeah,
for sure. But not yet. I got too much going on for golf, you know.
That's really dope. Well, you know, and then we get into like, here you
are, you opened your studio recently, and right
(20:41):
simultaneously we've got, you know, all these shutdowns happening,
and then the economy gets weird, and And everyone in the tattoo industry
is like, where are all the, you know, it's slowing down. So do
you, how do you feel towards that? I mean, cause you, here you are, you finally risk
to get into this full time and right at a time when
I don't, I think it's fine personally, but
(21:04):
I think a lot of people are wondering if it's going to be fine. So you let go of
the, of the security at a time when, do you feel that or
I do. I definitely did. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know what
was happening at that time. I was in my own high, I
was getting ready to take this another big step in my life and
I wasn't really paying attention to the economy. I was stable because my
(21:25):
tattooing time was very limited because my 40 hours was dedicated to
work at the office and then my tattooing time was like 5 hours a
day, 6 hours a day. Maybe seven hours a day, one, two
in the morning, I would finish, wake up, go to the office. But I was booked for months because
my time was very limited. But when I quit my job, I didn't realize how
much more time I would have to tattoo and how all of
(21:46):
those six months of appointments would condense into one month.
Right? So now I'm not booked out so far. So I didn't understand that at the time.
And again, I'm traveling, I'm riding this high, man,
just doing the conventions. I think I do like 20 conventions
a year or something like that now. It's pretty busy now and
close to it, but I wasn't paying that much attention to it. And
(22:09):
sure, I think everybody feels it. I think everybody's feeling that, you know, and who
knows if it's the economy or not or what it is, you know, it could be the,
you know, the oversaturation of new shops and new private studios
opening and people just, it's more accessible for people, you
know, but I think for us, like we have, standards and
we have, especially with, you know, me teaching my sons, our
(22:30):
standards are pretty high and I try not to bring them down
to meet, you know, what everybody is looking for.
I think if we can still provide that good quality service
and, you know, just being good people and having an experience, like a
shop to have an experience at, I think that'll attract, you
know, the clients that we want and the clients we're looking for. I
(22:51):
mean, I'm sure everybody feels the economy, or the
flux in what we're experiencing, but I don't know. I think it's fine.
I think it's going to be fine. I think if you just keep your head down and do
I agree. I mean, we might be getting into a little bit of karma. Right
there. I mean, I don't know. I just feel like the
(23:12):
universe keeps track of our deeds and if our deeds are, if
they're coming from a truly heartfelt space with authenticity, hard
work, all the good qualities of a human being, you
might have some ups and downs, but ultimately over the long haul, you'll have,
it'll be up. So I do agree. And then, you know, this
whole slow down or whatever you want to call it in the industry, You know
(23:34):
i look at it like a bit of a cleansing i think there are a lot of people who it's
just a fun little toy they're playing with. And maybe
they're just gonna go away and maybe they should go and we're
gonna be left with guys like yourself guys like myself and.
Industry will just straight right out of course economies are good and bad and
good and bad. So maybe it's not so good now. It'll be good
(23:55):
later. And yeah, maybe it's a good thing that we're kind of,
it got tight here for a little bit and see who wants to stick around
Oh, definitely. For sure. I mean, there's definitely people who aren't going to
be able to stick around, you know, they, people who want to get into it,
not understanding, you know, the, what it takes essentially
to, to be, you know, who they think they want
(24:16):
to be. You know, they may not have that in them, you know, and who
knows? I think, like you said, I think eventually a lot of things will move
around and some people will just jump back out of the industry
and it goes back to, you know, kind of the way it used to be, but
who knows? You know, we just, we just have to adapt, you
know, with what's coming and just, I'm literally just thankful that I'm still tattooing, you
(24:37):
Twenty-ish conventions in a 12-month period.
Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. I mean, I love this shit, man. You
know what? You love what? You love travel. I love the... You love
community. I love the community, man. I think... Because at your
(24:57):
shop... You see clients, but you ain't hanging out with your
community. Right, the community, right. I got my kids and when they come with me to the
conventions, it's even greater, it's even better. But, you know, we have a
community and I have a network of people that I love
to be around, you know, and it's great. You
know, again, it's hard because I'm still away
from the family, you know, from my family, and I'm still doing a
(25:21):
lot. But, you know, at some point, I know what I'm
doing is not for the bad. It's obviously for the good and, you know, for
the progression of the brand, for the team, for myself. You
know, every time I go to a convention to come home, I'm talking about every time. come
home and I'm just like hella like inspired to do more. You
know, it's always every, I don't care what convention
(25:42):
it is. It could be a small convention, it could be a big convention, it could be an overseas
I agree. I mean, I get it. A lot of people doing it, but man, that's
a lot. That's a, that's a schedule you don't hear people doing very
Yeah. Once I learned how to travel, shit
(26:03):
You got, you got it down to a science. Easy. Yeah. If I'm traveling
alone, like, uh, like not with the team that now with the black
and gray, you know, network of artists that we have, I'm traveling with a
carry on and a book bag and I'll be gone for a week. You're
lucky you're a black and gray artist. I know it. You see my portfolio. I
know it. Oh yeah. Oh no. Yeah. That's fucking. It's fucking wild.
(26:25):
You catch me with- I didn't do as many conventions because for me to go to them, it
Way more of a hassle. I mean, I have, you know, and I started working with
rotaries, so I don't need to carry- Power
supplies. Power supplies. I don't need to carry multiple coils. You
could fit your whole tattoo, everything you need in a backpack. Everything I
need to tattoo, everything, including an armrest if I needed it
(26:48):
Yeah, that's dope. And you got to get it down to a streamline if you're going
to move around as much as you're moving around. That's dope. Well,
yeah, tattooing is what it is right now. I
think the future is always gonna be there. Something this
loved by humanity, it doesn't just go away. And
the people that are really, really passionate and lovers of it, they're
(27:08):
gonna keep on doing it for the foreseeable future. I mean, I don't like to use the word
forever. I don't know what people are gonna be into in a thousand years,
but I'm pretty sure in the next hundred tattooing ain't going
nowhere. I mean, there is some strange activity around
the progression of AI and stuff that you wonder how
it's gonna affect. I mean, I get it. We're craftsmen. I
(27:30):
think it's a long ways out for a robot to be able to do a sleeve
on someone. Or a machine that you put your arm in
and pull it out and there's a perfectly composed fluid
project on the arm. I'm not saying that can't happen, but
I don't see that in our time. So no matter how you deal
with this AI thing, you know, because, you know,
(27:50):
I look at your lettering, which is very unique to you. But
the reality is, I could take a bunch of
pictures of tattoos you've done, and I could feed
them into a little AI generator, and I could
have a client that says they want these letters, and boom, it's gonna spit
me out a design that looks just like your shit. And
as long as I'm a technician, know how to put ink in skin, I'm
(28:15):
now you, you know? So
this is just something I bring up to a lot of tattooers. And you know, nobody likes
Trust me, it's hard for them to come out of my mouth. I just felt my life was
just like, this whole universe, all of it is bad.
(28:39):
I think there's going to be a lot more tattooers. I'm not saying they
don't love tattoo as much as us, but the need to
be an illustrator or to come up with a unique voice of
art that is theirs. might start going away. A lot of people
are like, Aaron, people won't want that. And I say to them, uh,
I think a lot of people are less discriminated, discriminatory as
(29:01):
you might think, you know, uh, the idea that they
They're just like, that's, don't put it on me. We don't need AI. That's
literally now people just don't care. You know, people
Some are like, I need to get a piece from Carlos Torres. Even
if I, mimicked him, they'd be like, well, I don't care. I want
(29:21):
Carlos to do it. You know, those are collectors. Those are connoisseurs. There's
a huge swath of collect or people getting tattooed. They're like,
I don't give a shit. In fact, this is better because I can't get
in with Carlos and, and, and you're, you don't charge as much
as him. You know, so there's that thing that, you
know, I hate to tell anybody, like I believe in freedom. I
(29:42):
don't believe I have the right to tell somebody to not do something, but
it does hurt my heart because of the pain
and suffering that I've put into this craft and to know that someone can just kind
of come in and ride it like that, it bothers
me. So yeah, I don't like it, but what am I
gonna do about it? There's not much I can really do about it. And how much am
(30:04):
I going to cry about it and talk about, go on their pages and
tell them they're pieces of shit. I'm not going to do any of that either. Right. It's
not in me to do that. So we'll just let this thing shake out. But maybe
it, it will probably come back to some level of
being rewarded for being authentic. That seems to be the program of
the universe. Like it doesn't seem to let us be rip off artists forever,
(30:26):
I agree. I definitely agree with that sentiment for sure. And, you know, there's a lot of people who
are gaining notoriety and gaining clients based
on their ability to use TikTok or their ability
to use, you know, the algorithms and the way that people
can see them. And just because they
can do that, they can't, it's not, it can't last forever. You
(30:48):
know, I think what we do, you know, being the technician, being the
Well, I put another layer on there. Like tattooing is,
it's a really hard job on a lot of levels. It's physically difficult.
It can torture your soul. Like if a piece, if
you're not getting the art on paper, that's in your mind, it can. So
(31:11):
there's so many times to walk away from it for
a person who loves it. So then, if
you take a person who's just reproducing other people's work
through an AI generator, well, I don't think they're gonna be sticking
around when the times are even a little bit tough, right? The
people who stick around when times are tough must have a deep, deep, deep-seated love
(31:33):
For tattooing and that's why they're still there, no matter how hard it gets, they're still
there. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see, uh, how many stick
around when they don't have that level of passion. I don't think you can. I mean, if,
if you're just going to reproduce other people's stuff and put it on people,
well, that's a cool little con you came up with, but
a con isn't going to drive you in life. You know, it's not going to
(31:53):
give you the passion to get up and work harder than someone who's actually making
that product and they're not a con. So I think that will filter down
through there too. Oh man, I just wish
(32:14):
Who knows? Maybe that is the answer. Like, you know, to be a
professional tattoo artist in a professional studio, licensed studio, you
know, we have to go through and verify all your work is yours. We
run your whole portfolio through an AI sensor. Be
like, oh, you just had your license revoked because all your shit's been
(32:36):
stolen from all these other artists. Okay, I
don't know. I definitely am not for more regulation. That sounds like
a regulation to me. Whatever. This industry is always going to
be wild and free. Oh man, I love it. Yeah, you too.
And if you want to be a part of something that's wild and free, then you got to be okay with
a little bit of chaos and a little bit of bullshit. If
(32:57):
you want to get rid of all that, then hell, go be a doctor. Guess
what? Nobody else can doctor with you unless they do exactly what
you do. But here, come one, come all. And
that's the beauty of it. Come one, come all means you're gonna get
some riff raff, you know? Yeah. Oh, that's cool, man.
That's very cool. Well, respect to you for not being one of
(33:17):
those people and for creating your own voice. I mean, I
look at that letter. I have a guy that works with me, Deft. I don't know
Lettering specialist like you, you guys, two different looks
to your work. But, um, it's rad to see that
as a genre that people highly respect. Cause
(33:39):
I gotta be honest, man, when I was a young tattooer, lettering of
any nature was the, just bullshit walking
that you had to do to pay the bills that day. I don't think any
of my peers ever regarded it as art. Art had
to be an illustration. Art had to be a drawing of a skull or this
or that or that. Lettering was just blah. But I
(34:00):
was wrong. And as people have taken it and made it an
art form and figuring out what you can, you know, graffiti can,
you know, help this a lot too. I'm sort of going, Damn, that
is, it is art, you know, you could do so much with this stuff. And
I know you also do black and gray realism, but it's pretty
dope to see people making a whole tattoo career out
(34:23):
I personally, I feel like I identify as a lettering
tattoo artist. That is who I am. That was my first art form. You
know, again, I didn't realize that it wasn't a like
a thing that people understood and people really don't
understand lettering. But, you know, this community, man, we're
I think we've made a lot of progress in
(34:45):
showing the world that what we do is just as difficult as
neo-traditional or full color realism,
you know, with all the techniques. They're just different. You
know, you'd never see like best of days or best of
shows with lettering pieces because they're going up against, you
(35:05):
know, two day black and gray realisms or something like that, or full
color realism or something. Lettering is never that. But, uh, I
think I, I, for me particularly, I started
to enter the contests, the best of days, because not
everywhere has lettering contest. You know, here at Golden State, there's no lettering contest. So
who's, how can you showcase lettering if there's no lettering contest? No category for
(35:26):
you. There's no category. So I had to enter in like best of days. So
in 22, I believe I won Friday best
of day with the lettering piece. Up against Neotrav and
everything else. So that was when for me, I
knew that the progress that we've been making with lettering and
how creative it's become and the ability to freehand on a
(35:47):
limb that flows nice and well. And those
type of compositions, you know, we're doing by hand. We
could do it on an iPad and place it, but it's never the same. You know,
freehand is always better because you get better flow. And I started to notice that people
were understanding a little bit more. Lettering is hard. Lettering is difficult. And
the people who do it well, it's more difficult. It's art. It
(36:09):
And to win a best of day against neo-traditional people, that
was like a moment of acknowledgement that that's art too.
Incredible. Incredible feeling. And since then, you know, I've lettering
categories and lettering artists have just become, Oh my God, they're just
incredible. Dude, they're incredible. It became a genre. It is
crazy. Yeah. It is not just the
(36:30):
fine line script or the, you know, old English, you
know, they, it's, it's incredible what these people
are doing. Kids too, young. Oh man. So
I'm, I'm, That is my life, that is who I am. I'm
a lettering artist, and I am a fan of what
is to come these next five, 10 years for lettering. I
(36:52):
would love to see, and I can't wait to see a lettering piece take a best
of show at any convention. At any convention. I don't care
what convention it is. It could be a small convention, doesn't matter. I would love
This weekend, at Golden State, if you guys, I don't
even know when this is gonna air, If you guys look
(37:12):
back at this, in my booth, we're doing an eight artist lettering collab,
upper back. So eight lettering artists that are with us, you
know, in the black and gray booth, insane project. Three days, one
I want to see that. I want to see, obviously for you, this is a
It didn't start with me. I was fortunate enough
(37:36):
to be a part of large lettering collabs in
Europe. We did one in Italy last year in
November. We did a leg from thigh to ankle.
Seven lettering artists, seven words, the seven deadly sins. Each
artist got one word. That was a full leg. In Naples this
year, again in Italy. These kids are amazing in Italy, dude, I'm telling you.
(37:58):
In Italy, we did a 10-artist lettering collab from shoulder to
hand, a 10-letter word, said dedication. Each
artist got one letter. And they just, I
don't know, our community, I know specifically I can speak for lettering
community, I think we come together a little bit different. The
way we can collaborate and begin because it's all freehand, we can move things
(38:20):
and connect and collaborate a lot easier. And when they come together like
that, it's incredible. So I knew that since I did
it, I've been a part of them. I know what they can create. I know what we
can create when we come together. I said, I got to do it. I have to bring it. I
have to do one here. Have to. American artists, you
know, I've done them with, I'm like the only American in some of these collaborations. American
(38:41):
artists can come together and we can do the same thing. We can create this incredible
Cause you're going to like those, the collaborations on there are incredible. I've
seen, I just kind of browsed through because I knew you were coming up today, but I'll spend a little
more time in there. Definitely. Definitely. Amazing. Well, mad respect
(39:02):
for me. You're getting that from a, from a, you know, a neotrad
guy, a color guy, you know, maybe, maybe guys like me
don't think what you're doing is anything. It's not art. I
do not feel that way. Like I said, one of my favorite artists at Guru Tattoo is
deft and I have nothing but bad respect for, for lettering
and freehand lettering. I get that. It's a definitely lends itself to freehand. All
(39:23):
are, all tattoos do, but let's face it, some of these ultra complicated,
uh, like portrait work, you do portrait work. That's not a freehand situation.
I mean, maybe for somebody that's just a wild savant, maybe. But
it's not. But lettering is. And certain types of tattooing is
and should be. And it's rad that you're doing it that way. Thank you. So, mad
(39:43):
respect to you. Thank you. Congratulations on finally becoming a
professional tattoo artist. Thank you. 28 years or
whatever. Crazy. It's funny to say that out loud. And
thank you for being just a cool dude with a great story and willing to share
I really appreciate it. Man, I wish I could tell the story more because I
know it can resonate with a lot more people. I'm not the only person that has that
(40:05):
story. There's a lot of people that have a similar story. I'm sure they're out there. And
they are. And hopefully when they hear this, they'll, you know, comment and, you
know, hopefully maybe share some of their story
through the comments or maybe eventually you can get to interview them and
they'll be more open to be able to share that, you know, their experience like
Yeah. I think for a lot of years, some of them probably don't like talk,
(40:25):
you know, maybe talking about it's kind of like shameful. Exactly. Yeah.
And I know I felt that way for a long time too. Right. So. I've
never been that guy, like obviously I grew up, I had three
apprenticeships, went straight into professional shops and now
own shops, but none of us really like the idea of people
in their garage hurting people, which can happen, but
(40:46):
there's people in shops hurting people too, but one thing I've always said
is look, Only the ones who really love it
and care about it and have the talent are gonna rise out of it. I
don't know, I really, I personally don't care how they fuck, where they came from. If
they're producing and doing it the right way and making people
stoked and creating beautiful art, I'm not the old school guy
(41:07):
that's like, you didn't have an apprenticeship, get the fuck out of here. No, I'm not, never,
never. I think my life was my apprenticeship. Yeah, and it was. Life
is, is all of our apprenticeships, you know, it shapes us,
you know, into what we are, but it's a, definitely a
unique story and you're right. There's probably a lot more out there. So if you're
interested in telling that story, just know that you've got a nonjudgmental dude
(41:29):
here would love to hear it. But mostly I just want to say thank you for giving me
the time. I'd love your work. Keep that work up. I know you inspire
a lot of people and make a lot of people happy with your tattoos. Thank you. So
that's what this is all about. You know, sharing that love with others, that art
with others, collaborating with other people who aren't art
or not in our careers, but they get to be a part of art with us.
(41:50):
And I think it's a beautiful thing. Tattoo's a beautiful thing because of that. You're part
Where can people find you? Instagram, angelstattoo,
A-N-G-E-L-S-T-A-T and the number two. Also 45 minutes
north of Chicago in a small town, Gurnee. Born
and raised right there. And you can kind of find me everywhere. Around
(42:12):
the globe. Around the, I mean, here in the States and just Europe, you
know, I'll do a few shows out there. I got a few shows coming up in the
next couple of months out there, but I also got a few shows out here. So just,
you know, just, yeah, follow the Instagram and check my profile, my bio, usually
Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in. You guys
know where to find them, check them out and we'll see you on the next episode. Peace
For me, security was important. For my wife, security was
important. I wasn't just going to quit a job to go into a,
you know, flexible income. You know, we need stable income. You probably had healthcare. Exactly.
I was already incorporated in 2002. So I had health
insurance. I had 401k. You know, there was
no way that I could drop all of that. Even when I had my second son
(00:20):
at 18. So I had two kids at the time. I just
bought a house in 2019 or 2001. There's no way, you know,
I was like 19, 20 years old. You need to know what you're going to make every week. Exactly. I
have bills, I have kids, I have responsibilities. And it was important for my
family to be able to feel stable. Right.
And tattooing was, even still, it's not stable. Like it's not
(00:41):
It's still kind of an entrepreneurial act,
independent contractor. No 401k, no health insurance, and
no guarantee you'll ever stop working. Hello,
(01:11):
friends, lovers of tattoo. Welcome back to Chats and Tats with me, your
host, Aaron Gale de la Vedova. I've never said
my middle name on the show before. Yeah. Yeah. First time. My
middle name is Gale. Yes. I could be a girl on
paper, which is awesome. I love that. Anyways, I'm on
a weird tangent. Don't know what I'm doing right now. I am sitting in studio
(01:32):
today here in Pasadena, California. I'm at the Golden State Tattoo Expo,
and I'm having the distinct honor of meeting a lot of great
tattooers who are here for the same reason. The gentleman I'm with today, he's
from Gurney, Illinois. He's been tattooing for 30 years,
same amount I've been tattooing, so I'm sure we're going to know and share a
lot of stories in common. And what does he do? He's a custom
(01:54):
freehand lettering. which you'd have to go and check
his workout because I don't think you fully understand what I'm talking about
here. It's a kind of a next level lettering situation that
he's doing over there. Really dope. Super rad. And
you got to check it out. But he also does black and gray realism. He
was telling me earlier, it's like a 50 50 split. But amazingly talented
(02:16):
with a kind of a unique story of how he found tattoo.
So I want to hear that story and a bit more. With all that being said, please welcome
my guest today, Angel Bustos. Thanks man. Good
to have you. Thank you for taking a little time. I know you're down there busy tattooing and
we found this little gap that we could hang for a minute. So, you
know, appreciate you being here. Thanks for having me for sure. But let's
(02:37):
get right into it. I mean, your story of, you
know, obviously today you are a highly respected professional
tattoo artist, but you've been tattooing for 30 years. And
what I just said is really only been the last 10, not
to say whatever you were doing prior to that didn't count. I'm sure you were
doing amazing tattoos before you went into a formal professional
(02:59):
studio environment, but there was a lot of years where you were not working in
that way. And I can tell you've got a story there.
So let's hear, how did it all begin? Where does a tattoo machine
end up in your hand? And how did that journey go to
So 1994, I had an older brother. He was three
years older than me at the time. Someone taught him how to make a homemade
(03:21):
tattoo machine and brought it home. I
was already an artist. I was already drawing letters. I had been drawing letters for
a few years. I think I remember like 10 years old in fifth grade drawing
like book covers, you know, paperback book covers that we
used to do. I used to draw letters on that and just names
and everything. So I was always drawing letters. He came home with the machine and he
(03:41):
was like, dude, you got to tattoo me. So I think my first tattoo
was my last name Bustos across his upper back, which
is like the worst idea ever. And it was shit, like it
did not, it was the most worst, like terrible tattoo. But that's kind of how we
I gotta say, I did one of my first tattoos on my brother
on his upper back. I forgot about this. I'm
(04:02):
halfway through this tattoo and I realized I didn't put rubber bands on
the machine. So the needles are just in the tube flopping
I'm like, this thing doesn't work as good as I remember it working. Yeah,
that's funny. I remember when I got my first coil, I didn't know how to use a
grommet. Metal on metal. Metal on metal. I was like,
(04:25):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, so 1994, you know, we started tattooing with
Homemade Machines. That's kind of how he moved around, kind of how he made
money. He wasn't really, you know, much of like a artist artist. He
was definitely a tattooer. I mean, he tattooed everybody in the town and knew
a lot of people and moved around that way, tattooed for money, tattooed
for like a place to stay, maybe weed, some beer, whatever, you
(04:46):
know. That's kind of how he moved around and, you know, me being his little brother, just
kind of moved along that same path, just tattooing
my friends, his friends. So we both tattooed
a lot back in the 90s. High school, I was in like middle school. I
(05:08):
Yeah, freshman year, walking into
So I gotta ask, you're tattooing eighth
graders. What kind of neighborhood are you living in,
I grew up in a middle-class neighborhood. Nobody was getting tattoos. It wasn't like that. It
wasn't like we were in the slums or anything like that. It was literally
(05:28):
just like either like family or like friends of my brother, you know, I'm
not really tattooing like 12 year olds or 13 year olds. It was
more like the older kids that were getting them, the 16 year olds, my brother's age,
that type of stuff. But then when I got into high school, we're a little bit older, we're 14 now
and you know, high schoolers, if you look at high school now, kids are
like tattooed like sophomore year, like full sleeves basketball
(05:49):
players are just, you know. So anyways, high school, do
a tattoo on some of my really good friends, walk into the school and be like, He'd show
it off and be like, damn, who did that? And then he'd be like, Angel did. Okay, so
let's go get some more, you know? So that journey, you know, that
was that path from like 94 to 2001. So
in 2001 is when like things changed. My brother got
(06:12):
sick and passed pretty, pretty fast. It
was like a, you know, two month illness from when
he got sick to when he passed. So it happened really fast. It's not like he was,
you know, just, you know, slowly, you know,
in that realm. But he
passed in November of 01 and everybody
kind of looked at me and was like, hey, you know, you gotta, you have to continue to tattoo. Like,
(06:37):
you can't stop tattooing. Like I said, he tattooed a lot of people, I tattooed a
lot of people. They were like, you just have to keep going to keep his name alive, essentially,
right? So back then I really didn't have any like other
purpose or other goal. I mean, we were just tattooing. Like I said, it wasn't like we
were doing big production. It's not like we were doing even quality big
tattoos. It was just tattooing at the time. Um,
(06:57):
that same year we had just got our first coil machine. So before
this, it's all homemade machines. All homemade machines. Rotaries, little
rotary motors. Rotary motors. Okay. We get them out of remote patrol car,
Walkmans, you know, train track sets or something or. Something,
And then, I don't know much about homemade machines. So the needle's like a
(07:18):
Oh, there were some evolution in that. So
that evolved over time. When we were doing them, we would wrap thread around
the needle, but not like you would use them in jail, where you would poke. And
that's where the needle would, that was like your needle depth, where your needle was
wrapped. We would wrap a needle, but only to stuff it inside of
a pen tube. So the inside of a pen tube where the ink is
(07:39):
held, it's like a plastic tube. We would just kind of force the
needle into that, and that's what would keep it stable. And then within
that, you would make the entire machine from that. So all the
work is a single needle production? Essentially, yeah. Yeah, there's no,
you guys weren't soldering, grouping, sticking together? No, no, no, no. We would, you know,
get a pack of sewing needles at the time. And sewing needles
(07:59):
comes in different sizes, you know, different gauges, right?
So we could only use like maybe two out of a pack of 30. So
we would buy new packs of... Just to get the ones
that you needed. Just to get the ones that we needed. And then, you know, we're constantly buying
those. So yeah, so we would make those. Actually, we actually, it's on
my Instagram, like a video homemade machine that we just made a
(08:20):
couple months ago. And it was a very nostalgic... Right,
experienced. It was incredible. After 30 years now. We
haven't made a machine, I haven't made a machine since, fuck, it had to have been
2001, right before we got that coil. So 23 years ago. So
you get your first coil, where? How? Website. Just
some website. Yeah, I mean I can. You remember the brand? I think it was Superior,
(08:43):
Superior Tattoo Supply. I don't think Huxbalding was.
And then, I mean, there's also like local shops. So you get your first coil machine,
you probably get some tubes and you probably get some needles that are not singles.
So now you've got some, some seven mags and shit. You must
(09:04):
I had no idea what I was doing. Like I said, I didn't even know how to use a
grommet, you know. So yeah, I mean, like I
said, everything changed around that same time. Like we got our first coil machine,
you know, my brother passing and all of this is new to me. I've always been tattooing, but
I've always had a job because I have two sons that
we had really young. So I was 16 when I had my first son. So
(09:25):
I've been with my wife since I remember we've been together for 30 years. When
I had my first son, I wasn't just gonna tattoo for
money. I really needed to work and get a job and support. So
I've been working since 95, 96. So
tattooing wasn't always like just a form of income. It was literally just
something I enjoyed doing on the side and just
(09:46):
tattooing my friends. Obviously like if you're going, if you're young in
high school and tattooing somebody, you're like the cool kid. So if I'm tattooing,
I'm just going to tattoo more often. Just tattoo, you know, just try to get better
at what I'm doing. You know, just doing letters on everybody. So
again, tattooing was never just for money. Tattooing has always been as a passion
and always been something just like, just to do. Yeah. Cause you could have dropped
(10:06):
I mean, you had a real job, you could have just walked away, but you just loved
Yeah. There's, there's no way I could ever have stopped. So then again,
my brother passing, everything changed. I was working in food. I
was working like Papa John's. I was a store manager at like 17. Because I
always wanted to progress. I always wanted to, you know, be a manager. I always wanted to make more
money or whatever. And then in 2002, just after my brother passing, I
(10:30):
left that industry, that food industry, and went into like corporate. And in 2002, I
got into like collections, like entry-level collections job for an e-commerce company.
And in 2003, I ended up transferring into the advertising department.
And I got into getting into web design and graphic design. I was, I
had always been a graphic designer from like high school. I learned how to use like Photoshop and
stuff. And in 2003, I got a job in advertising and got into web design. And
(10:52):
that had been my path along with tattooing for the next 20 years.
I mean, I just thinking of you, like, cause along this path, when
you're maintaining your real job and tattooing out of passion, the
industry is coming alive. You must have seen
it bursting around you. You must have known, like,
(11:14):
I can go it. Did it ever, like, didn't you ever have a thought?
Like, I wonder what happened if I just actually went to a shop and started working at
that level. I mean, I don't know where you were living. I'm assuming where you were
living, shops are popping up and people were making
Yeah. I don't think I knew the financial part of
(11:34):
the tattooing business at the time. I live in a town where we have, I
think the largest Naval Academy, uh, Navy base, uh, Great
Lakes is, I think it hosts a bootcamp for the
Navy kids. So it's a big Navy base and that's
where tattooing was like popular back then. Now
they're more, they're everywhere, right? But back then it was literally
(11:56):
just around the Navy base because that's where kids were getting excited.
So, you know, I had went into the shops but I was probably, you
know, 18 at the time, late 90s. And I was interested
in going and learning how to work in a shop and, you know, developing
that craft. But back then, you know, nobody was really looking at young
kids to be, to just take, take them in and give
(12:17):
them an apprenticeship. So I went into a couple and they kind
of just like, you know, push me away or whatever. And after
that, I was like, I didn't really need tattooing. So I just kept
my head down and just did what I was doing. I had already had a job
and I knew, for me, security was important. For my
wife, security was important. I wasn't just going to quit a job to
(12:37):
go into a, you know, flexible income. You know, we need stable income.
You probably had healthcare. Exactly. I was already incorporated in
2002. So I had health insurance. I had 401k. You
know, there was no way that I could drop all of that. Even when
I had my second son at 18. So I had two kids at the time. I
just bought a house in 2019 or 2001. There's no way, you know, I was like 19, 20 years old.
(12:58):
I just bought a house. You need to know what you're going to make every week. Exactly. I
have bills, I have kids, I have responsibilities. And it was important for my
family to be able to feel stable. Right.
And tattooing was, even still, it's not stable. Like it's not
It's still kind of an entrepreneurial act,
independent contractor, no 401k, no health insurance and
(13:23):
Yeah. So yeah, that's partly the reason why, you know, I
never really wanted to go into that field or
I get it. So then the question for me is what,
what's, why do you change your mind? When and why do
you change your mind? Well, okay. Did I
(13:48):
There was a lot within that 20 years, but I kind of
want you to understand that tattooing in corporate, in
I didn't, it wasn't like a... So you weren't just tattooing a little,
you were tattooing full-time. I was tattooing a lot. I wouldn't say full-time, but it
was a lot. Plus you still had your 40 plus hour a
(14:08):
week job. Yep. Nine to five in the office, let's say, and then, you
know, come home 6.30 PM or my appointments
to whenever, you know. So I worked a lot
for those 20 years. Wow. The last, let's
say, 10 were probably the most busy because, you know, I progressed.
I started to get better. And over time, actually, what really
(14:29):
got me, well, there's a couple of levels, a couple of steps.
But in 2015, 2014, the state of Illinois found out that I was tattooing out
of my home, sent me a letter, said, hey, you can't do that. If
you want a tattoo, find a legal establishment and do that.
So at that time, I was already, you know, I've been tattooing so
comfortably out of my house forever. And that just sparked an
(14:49):
interest in me to build my own studio or to open my own legal studio.
So I did all the research, applied to open a shop, built, you
know, reconstructed the shop, the space that I
found and built my own private studio in 2015. So
now I'm working still corporate, nine to five in
the office, but now I have, instead of going home to tattoo, now I have a private studio
(15:15):
Corporate, that's why. That's just incredible because, I mean, looking at your portfolio and
it's just shocking to know at this level of tattooing that you're creating. You're
still working your nine-to-five. I don't
know any tattooer at your level that has a job outside of tattooing. Maybe
Nine-to-five, web design, loved it. It paid well. Health
(15:37):
coverage was great. Who would want to drop that and give that up?
It's too stable. But I love tattooing, so I opened my private studio by
myself. Small 300 square feet space, and
I did that for nine years. And at a point, you know, we
had talked about, you know, my wife and I talked about quitting my job and opening up a
bigger studio, doing a full time in the past, you know, maybe 2018, 2019. I
(15:58):
had already been doing it for some years, but it wasn't the right time. You know, for
us, it wasn't the right time. We knew we needed to do more to
be able to live the life that we live now. Which isn't,
you know, we're still tattooers. We're not, you know. Your wife's a tattooer?
No, no, no. I mean, I'm still a tattooer. I'm not like, you know, a billionaire. So
in 2022, we talked again.
(16:19):
We decided now might be the right time. Both of my sons had
started tattooing. So I have two sons, 26 and 24. So
about five years ago, my eldest son started tattooing. He
also had, you know, I have a grandson. I have two grandsons. So
he too i think you just searching
for what he love to do you know he had the jobs you work like i did you
(16:41):
know here and there. All kinds of good jobs
but never really love anything so he got into tattooing so
now my space becomes a small space for two. And
it was only just built for one. He gets into tattooing full time. He
fell in love with it. Still tattooing today. Progression is
great. It's amazing. So now I have to make space
(17:02):
for two. My younger son also started tattooing. So now I
need to make my small space into three for three. So now we're in
there for like two or three years and it's just like, both of
them, my youngest tattoo is part-time, my
oldest tattoo is full-time. So it's just, the space was too
small. 2022 was, we were like, okay, let's
do this, you know, quit my job. Started traveling a
(17:25):
lot more, doing a lot more conventions, started to travel to Europe, but
also simultaneously trying to open up a bigger shop. So
it took about 18 months, nine months to get the keys, and
then nine months to build, and we finally opened up the Black and Grey Tattoo
Studio in March this year. So now I have a large 2,200 square
feet space, big enough for, you know, six, we could fit 10 artists
(17:46):
in there, but I have six stations, and that's where we're at now. Fuck yeah, man.
That must have felt good. I think I'm still like in
that honeymoon, you know, of feeling like it's so brand new for me.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I think I'm going to forever
(18:08):
That's cool, man. That's a, that's a definitely not. the normal path,
Well, congratulations on your, what's the name of the studio? Black
and Gray Tattoo Studio. Black and Gray Tattoo Studio. That's dope.
(18:28):
B-L-K-X-G-R-Y. That's cool.
That's cool man, well yeah, and it's cool on another layer too, like I
have children, I have girls, neither of them have any
interest in tattooing, I actually have an older son too, neither
did he, and not that I would ever make him... You
encourage them to do it, really. I just, hearing you, you're
(18:51):
working with your sons in this shot, it's like a family business.
That's gotta be cool to be able to, two birds with one
stone. You wanna spend and create memories with your children, but
It's an incredible feeling for sure. Definitely not something I take for granted.
You know, I worked a lot when they were young. You know, like I said, I did the office
thing and I went to the, either I was tattooing at home or tattooing at, you
(19:14):
know, the studio when I opened it. So I feel like we're getting a lot of that time
Yeah, working two jobs for 20 years, you gave up a lot of time with
your kids. Yeah, now you're getting extra time
at an age when most people are saying goodbye to their children. So
I mean the same thing with like us having kids young, you know.
(19:36):
We had our kids young and my son has his kids young. You know, he was 17 when he
You know, so, but they, that's, that's all they knew. And again, we
never even talked about them tattooing. It was never a thing, never a thing in my house.
I never wanted them to actually get into it because I know how unstable it is and
I know I don't want them to do it. I didn't want them to do it full time. It's not
a stable thing, especially with kids. You know, like I said, I'd worked it for
(19:57):
so long. I never wanted to do it, but you know, he fell in love with it, man. And
No, once tattoo gets into you, good luck getting rid of it. It's like,
it's like a disease, man. It's like golf. Oh,
I don't even want to, I don't play golf because I look at it and I'm
(20:17):
So you hit one good shot, man. You're hooked. Oh, degenerates over
Golf is a time consuming. I'm going to do golf when I am
not working as much someday. I'm going to be the old man golfer. Yeah,
for sure. But not yet. I got too much going on for golf, you know.
That's really dope. Well, you know, and then we get into like, here you
are, you opened your studio recently, and right
(20:41):
simultaneously we've got, you know, all these shutdowns happening,
and then the economy gets weird, and And everyone in the tattoo industry
is like, where are all the, you know, it's slowing down. So do
you, how do you feel towards that? I mean, cause you, here you are, you finally risk
to get into this full time and right at a time when
I don't, I think it's fine personally, but
(21:04):
I think a lot of people are wondering if it's going to be fine. So you let go of
the, of the security at a time when, do you feel that or
I do. I definitely did. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know what
was happening at that time. I was in my own high, I
was getting ready to take this another big step in my life and
I wasn't really paying attention to the economy. I was stable because my
(21:25):
tattooing time was very limited because my 40 hours was dedicated to
work at the office and then my tattooing time was like 5 hours a
day, 6 hours a day. Maybe seven hours a day, one, two
in the morning, I would finish, wake up, go to the office. But I was booked for months because
my time was very limited. But when I quit my job, I didn't realize how
much more time I would have to tattoo and how all of
(21:46):
those six months of appointments would condense into one month.
Right? So now I'm not booked out so far. So I didn't understand that at the time.
And again, I'm traveling, I'm riding this high, man,
just doing the conventions. I think I do like 20 conventions
a year or something like that now. It's pretty busy now and
close to it, but I wasn't paying that much attention to it. And
(22:09):
sure, I think everybody feels it. I think everybody's feeling that, you know, and who
knows if it's the economy or not or what it is, you know, it could be the,
you know, the oversaturation of new shops and new private studios
opening and people just, it's more accessible for people, you
know, but I think for us, like we have, standards and
we have, especially with, you know, me teaching my sons, our
(22:30):
standards are pretty high and I try not to bring them down
to meet, you know, what everybody is looking for.
I think if we can still provide that good quality service
and, you know, just being good people and having an experience, like a
shop to have an experience at, I think that'll attract, you
know, the clients that we want and the clients we're looking for. I
(22:51):
mean, I'm sure everybody feels the economy, or the
flux in what we're experiencing, but I don't know. I think it's fine.
I think it's going to be fine. I think if you just keep your head down and do
I agree. I mean, we might be getting into a little bit of karma. Right
there. I mean, I don't know. I just feel like the
(23:12):
universe keeps track of our deeds and if our deeds are, if
they're coming from a truly heartfelt space with authenticity, hard
work, all the good qualities of a human being, you
might have some ups and downs, but ultimately over the long haul, you'll have,
it'll be up. So I do agree. And then, you know, this
whole slow down or whatever you want to call it in the industry, You know
(23:34):
i look at it like a bit of a cleansing i think there are a lot of people who it's
just a fun little toy they're playing with. And maybe
they're just gonna go away and maybe they should go and we're
gonna be left with guys like yourself guys like myself and.
Industry will just straight right out of course economies are good and bad and
good and bad. So maybe it's not so good now. It'll be good
(23:55):
later. And yeah, maybe it's a good thing that we're kind of,
it got tight here for a little bit and see who wants to stick around
Oh, definitely. For sure. I mean, there's definitely people who aren't going to
be able to stick around, you know, they, people who want to get into it,
not understanding, you know, the, what it takes essentially
to, to be, you know, who they think they want
(24:16):
to be. You know, they may not have that in them, you know, and who
knows? I think, like you said, I think eventually a lot of things will move
around and some people will just jump back out of the industry
and it goes back to, you know, kind of the way it used to be, but
who knows? You know, we just, we just have to adapt, you
know, with what's coming and just, I'm literally just thankful that I'm still tattooing, you
(24:37):
Twenty-ish conventions in a 12-month period.
Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. I mean, I love this shit, man. You
know what? You love what? You love travel. I love the... You love
community. I love the community, man. I think... Because at your
(24:57):
shop... You see clients, but you ain't hanging out with your
community. Right, the community, right. I got my kids and when they come with me to the
conventions, it's even greater, it's even better. But, you know, we have a
community and I have a network of people that I love
to be around, you know, and it's great. You
know, again, it's hard because I'm still away
from the family, you know, from my family, and I'm still doing a
(25:21):
lot. But, you know, at some point, I know what I'm
doing is not for the bad. It's obviously for the good and, you know, for
the progression of the brand, for the team, for myself. You
know, every time I go to a convention to come home, I'm talking about every time. come
home and I'm just like hella like inspired to do more. You
know, it's always every, I don't care what convention
(25:42):
it is. It could be a small convention, it could be a big convention, it could be an overseas
I agree. I mean, I get it. A lot of people doing it, but man, that's
a lot. That's a, that's a schedule you don't hear people doing very
Yeah. Once I learned how to travel, shit
(26:03):
You got, you got it down to a science. Easy. Yeah. If I'm traveling
alone, like, uh, like not with the team that now with the black
and gray, you know, network of artists that we have, I'm traveling with a
carry on and a book bag and I'll be gone for a week. You're
lucky you're a black and gray artist. I know it. You see my portfolio. I
know it. Oh yeah. Oh no. Yeah. That's fucking. It's fucking wild.
(26:25):
You catch me with- I didn't do as many conventions because for me to go to them, it
Way more of a hassle. I mean, I have, you know, and I started working with
rotaries, so I don't need to carry- Power
supplies. Power supplies. I don't need to carry multiple coils. You
could fit your whole tattoo, everything you need in a backpack. Everything I
need to tattoo, everything, including an armrest if I needed it
(26:48):
Yeah, that's dope. And you got to get it down to a streamline if you're going
to move around as much as you're moving around. That's dope. Well,
yeah, tattooing is what it is right now. I
think the future is always gonna be there. Something this
loved by humanity, it doesn't just go away. And
the people that are really, really passionate and lovers of it, they're
(27:08):
gonna keep on doing it for the foreseeable future. I mean, I don't like to use the word
forever. I don't know what people are gonna be into in a thousand years,
but I'm pretty sure in the next hundred tattooing ain't going
nowhere. I mean, there is some strange activity around
the progression of AI and stuff that you wonder how
it's gonna affect. I mean, I get it. We're craftsmen. I
(27:30):
think it's a long ways out for a robot to be able to do a sleeve
on someone. Or a machine that you put your arm in
and pull it out and there's a perfectly composed fluid
project on the arm. I'm not saying that can't happen, but
I don't see that in our time. So no matter how you deal
with this AI thing, you know, because, you know,
(27:50):
I look at your lettering, which is very unique to you. But
the reality is, I could take a bunch of
pictures of tattoos you've done, and I could feed
them into a little AI generator, and I could
have a client that says they want these letters, and boom, it's gonna spit
me out a design that looks just like your shit. And
as long as I'm a technician, know how to put ink in skin, I'm
(28:15):
now you, you know? So
this is just something I bring up to a lot of tattooers. And you know, nobody likes
Trust me, it's hard for them to come out of my mouth. I just felt my life was
just like, this whole universe, all of it is bad.
(28:39):
I think there's going to be a lot more tattooers. I'm not saying they
don't love tattoo as much as us, but the need to
be an illustrator or to come up with a unique voice of
art that is theirs. might start going away. A lot of people
are like, Aaron, people won't want that. And I say to them, uh,
I think a lot of people are less discriminated, discriminatory as
(29:01):
you might think, you know, uh, the idea that they
They're just like, that's, don't put it on me. We don't need AI. That's
literally now people just don't care. You know, people
Some are like, I need to get a piece from Carlos Torres. Even
if I, mimicked him, they'd be like, well, I don't care. I want
(29:21):
Carlos to do it. You know, those are collectors. Those are connoisseurs. There's
a huge swath of collect or people getting tattooed. They're like,
I don't give a shit. In fact, this is better because I can't get
in with Carlos and, and, and you're, you don't charge as much
as him. You know, so there's that thing that, you
know, I hate to tell anybody, like I believe in freedom. I
(29:42):
don't believe I have the right to tell somebody to not do something, but
it does hurt my heart because of the pain
and suffering that I've put into this craft and to know that someone can just kind
of come in and ride it like that, it bothers
me. So yeah, I don't like it, but what am I
gonna do about it? There's not much I can really do about it. And how much am
(30:04):
I going to cry about it and talk about, go on their pages and
tell them they're pieces of shit. I'm not going to do any of that either. Right. It's
not in me to do that. So we'll just let this thing shake out. But maybe
it, it will probably come back to some level of
being rewarded for being authentic. That seems to be the program of
the universe. Like it doesn't seem to let us be rip off artists forever,
(30:26):
I agree. I definitely agree with that sentiment for sure. And, you know, there's a lot of people who
are gaining notoriety and gaining clients based
on their ability to use TikTok or their ability
to use, you know, the algorithms and the way that people
can see them. And just because they
can do that, they can't, it's not, it can't last forever. You
(30:48):
know, I think what we do, you know, being the technician, being the
Well, I put another layer on there. Like tattooing is,
it's a really hard job on a lot of levels. It's physically difficult.
It can torture your soul. Like if a piece, if
you're not getting the art on paper, that's in your mind, it can. So
(31:11):
there's so many times to walk away from it for
a person who loves it. So then, if
you take a person who's just reproducing other people's work
through an AI generator, well, I don't think they're gonna be sticking
around when the times are even a little bit tough, right? The
people who stick around when times are tough must have a deep, deep, deep-seated love
(31:33):
For tattooing and that's why they're still there, no matter how hard it gets, they're still
there. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see, uh, how many stick
around when they don't have that level of passion. I don't think you can. I mean, if,
if you're just going to reproduce other people's stuff and put it on people,
well, that's a cool little con you came up with, but
a con isn't going to drive you in life. You know, it's not going to
(31:53):
give you the passion to get up and work harder than someone who's actually making
that product and they're not a con. So I think that will filter down
through there too. Oh man, I just wish
(32:14):
Who knows? Maybe that is the answer. Like, you know, to be a
professional tattoo artist in a professional studio, licensed studio, you
know, we have to go through and verify all your work is yours. We
run your whole portfolio through an AI sensor. Be
like, oh, you just had your license revoked because all your shit's been
(32:36):
stolen from all these other artists. Okay, I
don't know. I definitely am not for more regulation. That sounds like
a regulation to me. Whatever. This industry is always going to
be wild and free. Oh man, I love it. Yeah, you too.
And if you want to be a part of something that's wild and free, then you got to be okay with
a little bit of chaos and a little bit of bullshit. If
(32:57):
you want to get rid of all that, then hell, go be a doctor. Guess
what? Nobody else can doctor with you unless they do exactly what
you do. But here, come one, come all. And
that's the beauty of it. Come one, come all means you're gonna get
some riff raff, you know? Yeah. Oh, that's cool, man.
That's very cool. Well, respect to you for not being one of
(33:17):
those people and for creating your own voice. I mean, I
look at that letter. I have a guy that works with me, Deft. I don't know
Lettering specialist like you, you guys, two different looks
to your work. But, um, it's rad to see that
as a genre that people highly respect. Cause
(33:39):
I gotta be honest, man, when I was a young tattooer, lettering of
any nature was the, just bullshit walking
that you had to do to pay the bills that day. I don't think any
of my peers ever regarded it as art. Art had
to be an illustration. Art had to be a drawing of a skull or this
or that or that. Lettering was just blah. But I
(34:00):
was wrong. And as people have taken it and made it an
art form and figuring out what you can, you know, graffiti can,
you know, help this a lot too. I'm sort of going, Damn, that
is, it is art, you know, you could do so much with this stuff. And
I know you also do black and gray realism, but it's pretty
dope to see people making a whole tattoo career out
(34:23):
I personally, I feel like I identify as a lettering
tattoo artist. That is who I am. That was my first art form. You
know, again, I didn't realize that it wasn't a like
a thing that people understood and people really don't
understand lettering. But, you know, this community, man, we're
I think we've made a lot of progress in
(34:45):
showing the world that what we do is just as difficult as
neo-traditional or full color realism,
you know, with all the techniques. They're just different. You
know, you'd never see like best of days or best of
shows with lettering pieces because they're going up against, you
(35:05):
know, two day black and gray realisms or something like that, or full
color realism or something. Lettering is never that. But, uh, I
think I, I, for me particularly, I started
to enter the contests, the best of days, because not
everywhere has lettering contest. You know, here at Golden State, there's no lettering contest. So
who's, how can you showcase lettering if there's no lettering contest? No category for
(35:26):
you. There's no category. So I had to enter in like best of days. So
in 22, I believe I won Friday best
of day with the lettering piece. Up against Neotrav and
everything else. So that was when for me, I
knew that the progress that we've been making with lettering and
how creative it's become and the ability to freehand on a
(35:47):
limb that flows nice and well. And those
type of compositions, you know, we're doing by hand. We
could do it on an iPad and place it, but it's never the same. You know,
freehand is always better because you get better flow. And I started to notice that people
were understanding a little bit more. Lettering is hard. Lettering is difficult. And
the people who do it well, it's more difficult. It's art. It
(36:09):
And to win a best of day against neo-traditional people, that
was like a moment of acknowledgement that that's art too.
Incredible. Incredible feeling. And since then, you know, I've lettering
categories and lettering artists have just become, Oh my God, they're just
incredible. Dude, they're incredible. It became a genre. It is
crazy. Yeah. It is not just the
(36:30):
fine line script or the, you know, old English, you
know, they, it's, it's incredible what these people
are doing. Kids too, young. Oh man. So
I'm, I'm, That is my life, that is who I am. I'm
a lettering artist, and I am a fan of what
is to come these next five, 10 years for lettering. I
(36:52):
would love to see, and I can't wait to see a lettering piece take a best
of show at any convention. At any convention. I don't care
what convention it is. It could be a small convention, doesn't matter. I would love
This weekend, at Golden State, if you guys, I don't
even know when this is gonna air, If you guys look
(37:12):
back at this, in my booth, we're doing an eight artist lettering collab,
upper back. So eight lettering artists that are with us, you
know, in the black and gray booth, insane project. Three days, one
I want to see that. I want to see, obviously for you, this is a
It didn't start with me. I was fortunate enough
(37:36):
to be a part of large lettering collabs in
Europe. We did one in Italy last year in
November. We did a leg from thigh to ankle.
Seven lettering artists, seven words, the seven deadly sins. Each
artist got one word. That was a full leg. In Naples this
year, again in Italy. These kids are amazing in Italy, dude, I'm telling you.
(37:58):
In Italy, we did a 10-artist lettering collab from shoulder to
hand, a 10-letter word, said dedication. Each
artist got one letter. And they just, I
don't know, our community, I know specifically I can speak for lettering
community, I think we come together a little bit different. The
way we can collaborate and begin because it's all freehand, we can move things
(38:20):
and connect and collaborate a lot easier. And when they come together like
that, it's incredible. So I knew that since I did
it, I've been a part of them. I know what they can create. I know what we
can create when we come together. I said, I got to do it. I have to bring it. I
have to do one here. Have to. American artists, you
know, I've done them with, I'm like the only American in some of these collaborations. American
(38:41):
artists can come together and we can do the same thing. We can create this incredible
Cause you're going to like those, the collaborations on there are incredible. I've
seen, I just kind of browsed through because I knew you were coming up today, but I'll spend a little
more time in there. Definitely. Definitely. Amazing. Well, mad respect
(39:02):
for me. You're getting that from a, from a, you know, a neotrad
guy, a color guy, you know, maybe, maybe guys like me
don't think what you're doing is anything. It's not art. I
do not feel that way. Like I said, one of my favorite artists at Guru Tattoo is
deft and I have nothing but bad respect for, for lettering
and freehand lettering. I get that. It's a definitely lends itself to freehand. All
(39:23):
are, all tattoos do, but let's face it, some of these ultra complicated,
uh, like portrait work, you do portrait work. That's not a freehand situation.
I mean, maybe for somebody that's just a wild savant, maybe. But
it's not. But lettering is. And certain types of tattooing is
and should be. And it's rad that you're doing it that way. Thank you. So, mad
(39:43):
respect to you. Thank you. Congratulations on finally becoming a
professional tattoo artist. Thank you. 28 years or
whatever. Crazy. It's funny to say that out loud. And
thank you for being just a cool dude with a great story and willing to share
I really appreciate it. Man, I wish I could tell the story more because I
know it can resonate with a lot more people. I'm not the only person that has that
(40:05):
story. There's a lot of people that have a similar story. I'm sure they're out there. And
they are. And hopefully when they hear this, they'll, you know, comment and, you
know, hopefully maybe share some of their story
through the comments or maybe eventually you can get to interview them and
they'll be more open to be able to share that, you know, their experience like
Yeah. I think for a lot of years, some of them probably don't like talk,
(40:25):
you know, maybe talking about it's kind of like shameful. Exactly. Yeah.
And I know I felt that way for a long time too. Right. So. I've
never been that guy, like obviously I grew up, I had three
apprenticeships, went straight into professional shops and now
own shops, but none of us really like the idea of people
in their garage hurting people, which can happen, but
(40:46):
there's people in shops hurting people too, but one thing I've always said
is look, Only the ones who really love it
and care about it and have the talent are gonna rise out of it. I
don't know, I really, I personally don't care how they fuck, where they came from. If
they're producing and doing it the right way and making people
stoked and creating beautiful art, I'm not the old school guy
(41:07):
that's like, you didn't have an apprenticeship, get the fuck out of here. No, I'm not, never,
never. I think my life was my apprenticeship. Yeah, and it was. Life
is, is all of our apprenticeships, you know, it shapes us,
you know, into what we are, but it's a, definitely a
unique story and you're right. There's probably a lot more out there. So if you're
interested in telling that story, just know that you've got a nonjudgmental dude
(41:29):
here would love to hear it. But mostly I just want to say thank you for giving me
the time. I'd love your work. Keep that work up. I know you inspire
a lot of people and make a lot of people happy with your tattoos. Thank you. So
that's what this is all about. You know, sharing that love with others, that art
with others, collaborating with other people who aren't art
or not in our careers, but they get to be a part of art with us.
(41:50):
And I think it's a beautiful thing. Tattoo's a beautiful thing because of that. You're part
Where can people find you? Instagram, angelstattoo,
A-N-G-E-L-S-T-A-T and the number two. Also 45 minutes
north of Chicago in a small town, Gurnee. Born
and raised right there. And you can kind of find me everywhere. Around
(42:12):
the globe. Around the, I mean, here in the States and just Europe, you
know, I'll do a few shows out there. I got a few shows coming up in the
next couple of months out there, but I also got a few shows out here. So just,
you know, just, yeah, follow the Instagram and check my profile, my bio, usually
Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in. You guys
know where to find them, check them out and we'll see you on the next episode. Peace
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