August 6, 2025 • 59 mins
In this episode of Christendom and the World, Pastor Andrew Preus sits down with Pastor Philip Hale, Editor of Christian News, to discuss Hale’s journey into Lutheran journalism, the challenges of church leadership during COVID-19, and the renewed debate around family, birth control, and cultural decline. They take a deep dive into narrative criticism—exploring how subtle academic methods can undermine biblical authority—and examine how modern preaching often substitutes storytelling for proclamation. Hale calls for a return to bold, doctrinally clear preaching that convicts and comforts, challenging listeners to engage the Word of God not passively, but with humility and focus.
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(00:02):
and how close do these have to be?
that?
You can hear him?
just in there if it's pointed
So here we are with another episode of Christendom in the World brought to you byChristian News.
And speaking of Christian News, we're here with the editor of Christian News, ReverendPhilip Hale.
(00:24):
So, yeah, good to see you.
So, could you tell us a little bit before we, there's something else I wanted to discusswith you, more of a theological nature, but before that,
uh Why don't you tell us a little bit about uh how you got involved with Christian News?
I know I remember seeing uh your articles being published in the paper years ago.
(00:51):
How did all that happen and what direction have you been able to take Christian News?
So when I was a young pastor, had a small church in a village in Nebraska and had plentyof time to study and read.
would present papers at a conference in Lincoln where Pastor Clint Poppy was.
(01:15):
And uh so every six months I would do a bunch of research and try to read a lot of Lutherand the Orthodox Lutheran fathers and just kind of get to know a topic really as well as I
could.
Yeah.
Okay.
Present.
I did um various topics.
I think the one that first got on um hermeneutics radar was I did one on child prevention.
(01:37):
Okay.
From all, all different angles.
And he would just get these from friends or someone and he would just publish them.
He did call me up, call me up at like six or seven in the morning.
He'd already read it that morning.
And he just, he wanted to just touch base, say hi, didn't say much.
And, and I think the one that impressed him the most was I did a paper on John six.
(02:02):
Hmm.
think I read it.
Was once once more second more to.
that was a follow up.
That was a follow up one, but I did a long, just a very, uh, do it from a Lutherperspective, just, just exegete the passage and interpret it in a traditional Lutheran
manner using, um, a lot Luther's, uh, sermons and, and Kimnitz and so on and theconfessions.
(02:25):
And, uh, that one, um, was, was published and kind of got my name.
So it was just, I would write stuff and I was sending it out to friends, whoever wanted itjust.
something to do and keep me engaged.
And um he would publish stuff.
didn't really, we only talked maybe twice.
And I did visit in 2019, I think it was, there was a conference here at Camp Trinity.
(02:50):
It was during the eclipse.
Well that would have been 2017.
oh
seven.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
I think I've been editing since 19 maybe but I was a speaker and that's the only time Imet Herman on in person and spent a couple days here got to have lunch a lot of a lot of
time to visit and it was very enjoyable, but didn't didn't talk about much else.
(03:14):
Just real friendly conversation.
And and then when they were looking for an editor, the
the family, the children of Herman Otten.
My name came up and I came out here and I said, well, I'm willing to consider it.
don't want to hide my views and if I can do a decent job and do the best I can, if it canbe a positive benefit for the church, then I'm happy to do that.
(03:43):
And so I don't pretend to be uh a new Herman Otten or anything, but very different a lotof ways.
bad out of it.
yeah, yeah, not to his stature physically or otherwise.
uh No, you're pretty I do like to exercise, but I haven't haven't done any triathlons orany.
(04:05):
Yeah.
Great feats.
You should just do, you should just do start a triathlon.
And I think you start with biking, right?
okay.
Okay.
So just like go straight to the biking.
So Hermanotten did publish, I think, a picture of me running with a long stroller withfour little kids in it.
(04:26):
I think he did publish that in Christian news.
It was just a 5k local in Nebraska and everyone loves that picture.
It was all in line, ah the kids and that was a lot of fun.
So I do like to exercise and stuff, but.
So that picture could possibly get you elected to some office or something.
(04:52):
OK, so yeah.
So then uh what are particular things that pop out to you?
I mean, you've published.
You know, as far as synodical stuff, mean, I, you know, there's the stuff going on withConcordia's and stuff like that.
But what are some other things just generally that interest you that, you know, that stickout to you as something that you'd like to publish?
(05:18):
Yeah.
I think, I think looking especially at what the, schools do, the seminaries and collegescomes to mind and theologians and also Christian news as since it's not sponsored by
Senate, it's not, you know, edited.
We don't need approval and those things we can be, be honest about the problems we have inour midst and not, not try to be political or just kind of.
(05:45):
hide them under the rug.
so, but also I think, uh, as a vehicle for, you know, in a positive way of, of solidsermons and devotional materials of just things that I, that are interesting, right.
Uh, for things in the world that may seem just like secular news stories, but you can viewthem from a Christian point of view and maybe take something from them, even though it's
(06:10):
not how they were intended.
So.
I like to think of stuff that would be interesting to just an average Christian.
Yeah.
And we also need to be informed about what's going on in the world.
think I took over right before COVID.
And that was a fascinating time of past orally for dealing with.
(06:32):
you know, should we be having church?
Is church essential?
Is this, you know, should we be taking a stand in a way to really give encouragement wherethey're maybe not hearing it anywhere else?
Or should I going to hear it, you know, in the secular media?
um
interesting though how COVID did sort of open up more uh interest among people, uh not ina deeply theological manner, but even in the secular realm, you know, that people start to
(07:02):
be more open to, you know, questions of morality, questions of ethics, and maybe perhapsGod's role in stuff.
uh
authorities of what they're told may not be.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like there's a certain distrust.
Like I always tell people that after COVID, I, I, I don't know if I became a conspiracytheorist, maybe to an extent, but I certainly became more sympathetic to the impulse of
(07:33):
that.
Like how that happens when you're, when information is hidden from you or spun in such away that really affects your everyday life.
It's interesting how that has, and I don't think that that
that train has slowed down of, know, when people really do, they want to question things,you know, even things like evolution.
(07:54):
I think we're finding that people are more open to hearing something else besides thereceived orthodoxy that's been, you know, very coldly shoved down our.
I just printed an article on Ken Ham, but it was by a big newspaper.
Really?
all about it.
It wasn't belittling him.
(08:15):
It was like, he's actually done some impressive things and we kind of have to take himseriously.
He's kind of won in a sense.
To hear it from someone who's not a believer is, is I find always kind of interesting.
because even I remember, you know, 10, 10, 15 years ago, Ken Ham was he was the guy thatthat all of the kind of respectable Christians who still want to be a conservative would
(08:45):
they would distance themselves from Ken Ham.
Yeah.
And and say, well, that's not good science.
And and they were.
to take a stand.
Yeah, yeah, it's the same kind of thing.
You don't want to be called a fundamentalist.
You don't want to be perceived in that as just kind of an amateur, uh you know.
Someone who takes a stand and is consistent even the world can respect that.
(09:08):
Yeah, even if they don't agree with it You're not you know how to read blowing in thewind.
Yeah.
Yes following what everyone else is doing That's right, and you state you stand out and itcan be a definitely good thing.
Yeah
Yeah, and so I guess that teaches us patience then, that you gotta just keep your hand tothe plow and...
The world changes so quick.
(09:29):
What we think is deeply unpopular might likely be okay.
And I think I've even starting to see that we went through kind of the problem of woke ismand all this.
And you could see it took over in a lot of ways through official outlets, through a lot ofleaders.
But then you saw this, this backlash, kind of this grassroots.
(09:52):
Yeah, I I haven't I don't follow
Carefully studies, but I did I did hear recently that uh That some studies have some pollshave shown that approval for gay marriage, know, it's skyrocketed after Obergefell in 2015
Which tends to happen?
uh but ah But I've heard that it's actually kind of gone down a little bit just throughall the the LGBTQ pride nonsense
(10:22):
I think tracing trends, do especially a lot with family and marriage and children.
Kind of a topic I've always cared about.
And to see how the world trends, don't know necessarily the theological reasons ormotivations, to their, they're part of this life and God created them for us.
(10:43):
And to follow that and how people view, I think is helpful because they impact our, thatis the future of the church.
Yeah, well, what's and that's another issue.
It's amazing how, because like Herman Atten was harping on that issue for a long time.
My grandpa was actually, my grandpa actually, it was one of the things that got him introuble at the seminary because he was telling the students to stop practicing birth
(11:08):
control and to have children.
they were, that was a no-no.
That was like, that was something you just don't touch.
But I mean, there was a symposium at Fort Wayne, uh not that, actually like seven, eightyears ago where professors like that you would not have expected, like came out.
(11:32):
Yeah.
That it's okay to criticize the Missouri Senate and kind of its uh unofficial officialstance is not necessarily correct.
because I remember in 2011, I want to say, Harrison went before Congress and spoke againstthis mandate to provide birth control pills uh and specifically focused on how they're
(12:02):
abortifacient, which of course is
that's not controversial to your kind of typical Missouri Synod Lutheran, abortion iswrong, right?
And then he said, and overall his speech was very good, but in the speech he said, we'renot opposed to all forms of birth control, only those that are aborted of facian.
And I thought to myself, speak for yourself, man.
uh But I also, that didn't.
(12:27):
take away from like, I was thankful for his, I thought he gave overall a very good uhresponse.
But you look at where people are from that point to now, and like the kind of conservativeconfessional Lutheran cohort in the Missouri Synod is much more open to criticizing the
(12:48):
birth control culture.
They're not all drawing the same conclusions.
oh
on the positive side of being proponents of family.
uh You you can't preach the gospel if you don't have people.
It's very basic things, but we've been afraid to speak about those things.
(13:09):
A lot of people.
Yeah.
Hermanod in Christian News was not one.
I remember reading that even when I was quite young.
m
the, um, uh, Walter A.
Meyer still speaks.
He covers a lot in there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So,
So I enjoy talking about topics that maybe are, you know, uh, not as popular or polite inthat kind of academic sense.
(13:31):
Sure.
practical.
Well, and so speaking of topics, I think, and I have appreciated uh what you've written onall sorts of things um and your insights and your, you know, your careful study.
One book that I got very excited about that you, that you, I think you gave me uh was onthe authority and inspiration of scripture.
(13:55):
can't remember the name of it.
Yeah, my wife tried to talk me out on naming it that and she was right.
It's a too long name.
It was like confessing confessing the scriptural Christ against modern idolatry.
Okay, and then it's got another subtitle.
Yeah, I know, know.
It's like like a German, you know.
I tried, I was still young enough.
tried to be academic and to fit in.
(14:17):
I realized very quickly the reaction of that book.
I was never going to fit in.
Yeah, well, I mean, it reminds me of like, like Luther's, one of Luther's books that thesewords of Christ, this is my body, etc.
still stand against the fanatics.
That's the title.
have romanticism for long, up-boost titles.
(14:38):
but anyway, what I really enjoyed about that was your discussion on something that I havenoticed kind of on my own, but I wasn't quite able to put my finger on it until reading
what you had to write and then talking with you about it.
And we've had some good conversations just mutually on this stuff.
(14:59):
Is this trend of
what's called narrative criticism.
our listeners, uh I'm sure, are familiar with higher criticism.
We've talked about this on this show.
And Hannah, you remember higher criticism, right?
I'll remind you what it is.
Higher criticism or the historical critical method of interpreting scripture is that youtreat scripture as...
(15:28):
uh
as a collection, as a kind of put together final product of a bunch of collectedtraditions.
So the books of Moses, for example, the theory goes is that while you had your J-E-D-P,you had kind of four different traditions, and then they were written down various times
(15:53):
throughout the centuries.
And then what we know as
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy were actually finally redacted andcompiled and written down in like the fifth or sixth century BC.
And then they do the same thing with the New Testament and try to claim that, well, Pauldidn't really write this.
(16:19):
This reflects more of a later tradition that later developed.
It's very much Adam and Eve didn't exist.
You know, Job didn't get swallowed.
And that stands, that's standing over the scriptures.
You treat them as merely a human product.
then you, so we find then that you have other kinds of like versions of it, which we don'thave to unpack all those.
(16:43):
You canonical criticism, you got form criticism before that.
And so, but that, like what you're saying is, uh, what we're describing here, like yousay, it's very crass.
It leads to these conclusions or helps support these, all these kind of pre-madeconclusions.
Adam didn't exist.
Virgin birth is yeah, that wouldn't happen.
(17:05):
Miracles didn't happen.
All that stuff.
But then see what it's sort of like this modernist, very cold, objective, scientific sortof uh treatment of the Bible that we are going to investigate the Bible and see what is
behind the text and what it really
(17:27):
the essence of what is true.
And it reached a dead end.
Maybe the 60s or 70s where we can't, we don't know Jesus, we don't even know what his namewas.
Yes, and so by the time we are having the debate in the Missouri Synod, by the time thebattle for the Bible is at its zenith in the 1970s, we're kind of Johnny-come-lately's,
(17:50):
really.
It's dead academically.
It's kind of dead academically.
moved on.
Yes.
And other versions that are, they come from the same root issue of denying the inspirationof Scripture, but they approach Scripture very differently where it doesn't seem as harsh
or corrosive.
So, for example, there was actually the motivation of narrative criticism.
(18:12):
Narrative simply means story.
ah And so, it treats the Scriptures as a work of fiction, which fiction,
It doesn't have to be true.
It can still be useful and fruitful and productive, even though it didn't actually happen.
And so that came from a literary analysis that was imported by biblical scholars whothought they were tired of fighting over, did this happen or not?
(18:37):
They wanted to get to something positive they can use in churches.
Good motivation, but they didn't address the fundamental issue of what is scripture?
Is it God's word or is it man's word?
And so, and this came in and it has even within the Missouri Senate, have been usedacademically because you can't say a story is wrong.
(18:58):
Yeah.
A story, a story is a story.
It's harmless.
Yeah.
If I say that, uh like, we were talking about Pride and Prejudice with the Schliebrothers, if I say Pride and Prejudice is wrong, or if I say Jane Austen is lying, well
no, she's not lying, she's just writing a story.
the stories like a lot of story came from like fables and fairy tales.
(19:19):
How do you interpret those?
Yeah.
Well, that was imported in because basically you can, you can say what you want and you'renever actually wrong.
Now that plays in more on a philosophical intellectual level of the rise of postmodernismthat we know that today when, when people would say, well, no one's really wrong.
have your version of truth.
I have mine.
And that fits in with narrative that each different tradition.
(19:44):
The most liberal uh Christians who deny the resurrection can use narrative to saysomething positive about Jesus.
Conversely, even the most conservative can use it and they can try to support the faith,but they're actually undermining the very foundation of all doctrine that is scripture.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So just, I want to, I want to kind of summarize this point so that we can, we can really,really dig into this.
(20:09):
Um, so basically you have, you have modernism, which is a cold, rationalistic approach toGod's truth.
And then you have postmodernism, which is sort of like, I've described it as kind of theresentful battered child of modernism who resents his father for being too cold and stern
(20:32):
and
But also kind of and so he's always rebelling against that but he also has inherited allthat same stuff Right, they do the same things
But they do it in a way that they don't, they don't think they're going to get toobjective truth.
There's no, no, to dig down to.
Yeah.
So, and this is why this is so hard to resist for people because you, so with modernism,you get things like the Jesus seminars, the historical Jesus, where they're going to try
(21:01):
to figure out, this is actually, if Jesus did exist, this is what he actually would havesaid or done.
And these are the things that are just not true.
But then it gets to the point where people are, like you said, they're sick of arguingabout that.
So what's appealing about it is they say, how about we all just agree that we're justgoing to read the Bible?
Let's just read the Bible for what it is.
(21:21):
Now, who would argue against that?
ah I'm all for that.
Sounds good.
But academically, they refuse to really bring up any divisive questions of, it actuallymatter that Jesus was raised from the dead?
The divinity of the Son of God.
So all of these issues.
(21:43):
so narrative is a way that allows the story of Scripture as they see it to inhabit its ownimaginary world.
It's one of a former, uh, sermon professor and the Missouri Senate said, uh, creates itsown fictive world, own fictional world.
And so what you're reading in scripture, creates its own world in your mind.
(22:06):
You, cuts off the reference to reality and to the historical reference of the Bible.
And if you read the Bible, it does not read like a fairy tale.
The problem is you have historic references to people and the places and the things, andit talks to the reader directly.
That's disallowed in narrative criticism.
Now, another thing I want to ask is uh with narrative criticism, it seems like the term,the title of it.
(22:32):
And similar to historical criticism, who would be against looking at the scriptureshistorically?
Right?
So who's going to deny that there are narratives that accounts stories, we call it Biblestories, right, in the Bible.
So that seems to...
(22:52):
confuse a lot of people and they can see that as like, this is just reading the story ofJoseph and his brothers and gleaning insight from it, applying it to my life.
That all sounds fine, right?
And it works well with something like the parables.
The parables are in essence fiction, right?
They're stories that didn't necessarily happen, but could have that are understandable.
(23:17):
Well, other parts of scripture, we talked about uh Adam is created as the first man.
um If you take that only as fiction, you avoid a lot of very essential questions.
The same thing throughout scripture, you have different uh
different types of literature in the Bible and you can't read them all the same way.
(23:37):
um
And it seems like this used then to, this narrative approach is used to promote, there'slike a self, there's kind of an imposed meta-narrative, that kind of put on to the
narrative of scripture.
(23:59):
So for example, you might say that, uh
Let's take, let's first use an example of a book.
The Wizard of Oz is represents the kind of longing.
(24:20):
during the time of the Great Depression for somewhere over the rainbow of a better time,you know, and that's what that represents.
And so that's that kind of meta narrative that is able to then draw the people uh into thestory.
So then what people will do then, for example, with the story of I mentioned Joseph andhis brothers, that that might the meta narrative is there's an oppressor and there's an
(24:47):
oppressed
And there's, this represents our own personal struggle to be able to overcome um socialinjustices and things that keep us back from our full potential.
So that meta-narrative isn't actually doctrine that's taught in scripture.
It's something that's sort of latched on to the narrative of scripture to kind of drive itfor its own agenda.
(25:18):
Yeah.
So you have, you have themes, a narrative kind of has themes.
The problem is that distances us from the actual words of scriptures, the words thatestablished the doctor and not the general idea.
So, but even in the, the newer CPH commentary series, you'll see pictures on this.
try to identify certain themes, certain stack, sacramental themes or let's do ajustification and, themes in so far as they go actually don't convict.
(25:44):
They don't say much, right?
They're shorthand.
It's the actual words of scripture that establish what is true and then condemn on theopposite side.
And that's the real, it gets us away from the very verbal nature of scripture.
When you're in themes, you can pretty much say anything you want.
And that allows academics, you can have a feminist reading of scripture.
(26:04):
And they can say it with a completely honest face.
And they know that scripture doesn't actually say that, but again, they're reading into itand they're not even shamed by it.
uh
Yeah, it's more of a deconstruction.
It's more of a taking apart of scripture, using it for your own purposes rather than thisis the source.
This is the foundation of the Christian faith.
(26:26):
Well, yeah, seems to affect even if it.
If it's inadvertently affecting them, they don't realize that they're being affected by athing called narrative criticism, but it does seem to affect a lot of preaching where pre
where the the the preacher takes a theme some kind of hobby horse Maybe something like weshould be nicer to the poor people or something which is I mean, I guess that is something
(26:50):
that is taught but maybe some kind of like axi has to grind and then kind of superimposingit on the text and then making the text suddenly about it
But you even mentioned like even themes that are pulled from scripture.
There's a temptation among us conservatives who do believe that the Bible is the Word ofGod.
But then to take, for example, the theme of, um take the theme of the sacraments and thenyou're reading a text that is not talking about the sac.
(27:23):
doesn't specifically mention them.
Yeah, but you impose this theme because you think that's that's the right
certainly I'm not opposed to then making elaborate applications as you are applying thisto the people and then mentioning their baptism, mentioning the Lord's Supper and that's
like that's all that's not what we're talking about here.
(27:43):
We're talking about like taking like the theme of baptism, for example, and then, youknow, reading, you know, having a story and making it all about baptism when it's not
really that's not
not mention water at all.
Yeah.
And it's not really the point of the, so like one example is, um, I mentioned this withthe Schlie brothers that we just had on, that you take the, the, the, the, the, the
(28:14):
parable of the, um, the unrighteous manager, right.
And Luke, was it?
Luke, uh, 18 or Luke 16.
and, and, uh, and so make friends by means of unrighteous mammon.
Well, Jesus is talking about.
using the material things of this world for the good of your neighbor, for the good ofyour fellow Christians who will receive you into everlasting habitations, support the
(28:42):
preaching of the gospel, that kind of stuff.
But what I've heard this where people will say, well, unrighteous mammon actually is therighteousness of faith.
By all means, preach the righteousness of faith.
You can apply the righteousness of faith, but don't turn the parable or the story intosomething that it isn't.
(29:06):
And the problem is you can imply that scripture is unclear.
So if you talk about something the text doesn't talk about, you don't really use the wordsof the text, you're using an application, but you have to start with the meaning.
If you don't have the meaning, all the themes and all that doesn't matter.
And then another point with narrative stories.
I think sermons uh today tend to be very story focused on illustrations and kind of tales.
(29:34):
In fact, that may be the majority of a sermon for some pastors.
Well, what's a story?
A story is something that really can't.
Convict you or speak to you directly right?
It's something you pull your own meaning out of and that's that's kind of the whole day ofa narrative, right?
Scripture doesn't address you directly but you can get ideas that may change how you lookat the world or change your horizon Yeah, and those are actually academic word a lot of
(30:01):
the narrative critics use And the problem with stories is not direct proclamation
Scripture definitely addresses us directly.
Stop doing this.
You should not do that.
Yeah, it's proposition, like has propositions that are true.
it's one, this reminds me also then of, and I wonder if this is related to what's called akind of reader response theory of how you read anything really, but of scripture where you
(30:31):
have the author uh over here and like you mentioned kind of a horizon sort of thing.
So you have two horizons that sort of collide.
So you have the author here.
speaking, so the Bible, right?
You have the hearer or the reader here and he's incorporating his own, he's receiving itaccording to his own lived experiences and his own kind of thoughts and how it's making
(30:57):
him feel and react.
And they're both kind of colliding.
And then when they collide, that's actually becomes the meaning of that he creates themeaning.
is no meaning apart from the reader is quite problematic.
Yeah
And so is that is that in the same kind of is that in the same kind of vein as narrativecriticism?
(31:20):
portions of it, yes.
Originally it didn't start out like that, but that fits in very well with postmoderntheory, which then later became a big part of that because a story, really a fictional
story doesn't make a lot of sense without an audience.
Yes.
Someone reading it.
And you've got to imagine things and think about, in your own term, you create the ownworld in your mind of what it's like.
(31:42):
My world, when I read a novel, may be completely different than yours.
You could read the same novel, or imagine the people very differently.
characters ah but you destroy the absolute truth of God in scripture.
Yeah.
So you were mentioning that the, you're saying then that this is really the, theunderlying assumptions of this are not really any different than higher criticism.
(32:12):
Correct.
But as we've been kind of alluding to a little bit, talking about a little bit, this, justlike in the, in the sixties and seventies, there were, you know, self
proclaimed uh sincerely, people sincerely believing that they are confessional Lutherans,conservative, and they're convinced that they can use this method of interpreting
(32:43):
scripture without sacrificing the integrity of the authority of scripture.
And of course they were wrong.
And this has proven to be wrong.
It seems today you have the same thing going on with narrative criticism, where you havepeople who are sincerely orthodox in their teaching, in their beliefs about the authority
(33:07):
and errancy of scripture, but they insist that they can use this narrative uh method.
And again, just to emphasize again, by narrative interpretation, we're not saying that youshouldn't
consider what the narrative is in front of you.
(33:28):
That's not what that's talking about.
uh But the criticism, yeah, then yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
The narrative criticism, but that they, that they insist that you can use this method ofinterpretation without undermining the, the pure doctrine that's taught in scripture.
they they love the words of method it makes it makes that sound like a tool like a hammerYou use it in a good way.
(33:54):
You can use it in a bad way.
And really it's it's a complete approach to scripture that has doctrinal presuppositionsTo take part of scripture and to read it as if it were not true
That is a denial of scripture.
And so you can't treat the Bible like any other book in certain contexts and think it'sokay.
For example, like the Bible is literature and that's kind of what narrative does to treatGod's word as if it is not God's word is actually a blasphemy.
(34:22):
And that's the problem.
But this, this more in the academic side of things, they get very used to doing that.
ah And it, it really destroys the power of scripture.
And so.
our doctrine would tell us that you cannot read something that is inspired and given bythe Holy Spirit as what any stranger on the street would say, that really devalues uh
(34:51):
scripture and makes it quite base.
Yeah, so what would be just some examples of how this would be utilized in ourconservative confessional Lutheran context of people who sincerely believe the inerrancy
of the Bible and they're using narrative criticism?
What are some examples of how people might do that today?
(35:11):
Maybe people don't even realize that they're doing that, and what kind of rotten fruit canwe see that leads to it?
Like we mentioned, like with preaching and other kinds of...
So one thing it tends to isolate.
So narrative criticism kind of started with the gospels, but it would not want to comparethe gospel of John to the gospel of Mark or Matthew or Luke.
(35:31):
It would isolate and say, is a unique story.
And it almost create their own theology.
This is a Mathian theology.
Well, if each disciple has their own theology, there is no one truth theology.
And as soon as you prohibit references, the epistles,
don't work for a wereful narrative criticism for obvious reasons.
(35:53):
And so they attend to the gospels and then Revelation is also somewhat positive.
So it doesn't, you can't actually do it with a lot of scripture.
But where they do it, it's kind of like their little, it's their little playground.
They can kind of do what they want.
But then the fact of how it then uh changes, you don't get.
(36:15):
It changes the way the law so you might have someone talking about the law from a textfrom an academic point of view but Stories don't tell you're wrong.
You must change and repent.
That's on a practical.
Yeah
yeah, no, that's helpful.
That's a really helpful way of putting it.
Now, there's always every...
I'm always convinced that every lie is a corruption of the truth.
(36:37):
Every evil is a corruption of what's good.
The devil doesn't create anything.
He just takes what's good and messes with it.
So, I mean, there is truth in that, like, Matthew's gospel, there's something to say aboutreading Matthew's gospel.
For Matthew's gospel, there is the personality of the...
of the apostle, of the writer.
(36:57):
um
good story.
We can treat the gospel as a good story.
The problem is from that kind of the academics are starting from the standpoint of highercriticism.
So they're not coming from a neutral standpoint.
They've already denied the historicity of the Bible.
And so we do have to, we can call the Bible a story and treat it story, but is it a truestory that actually happened?
(37:20):
And that at some point we have to...
Yeah, so, okay, so for example, just to elaborate a little bit on this, that you can saythat Matthew...
uh has certain things in mind that he wants to emphasize you know like the emmanuel kindof there's like he he meant he quotes from isaiah 7 14 then he records jesus saying i'm
(37:48):
i'm with you always to the end of the age god with us right you have god with us at thebeginning god with us at the end you have these things that he obviously wants to
emphasize you have things that luke
that stick out for Luke, things that stick out for John.
So we're not denying that these things are real and they exist.
The problem though with, and this is kind of with form criticism and it all kind of comesfrom that same sort of uh position, that what they do is they heighten that uniqueness of
(38:19):
the author so much to the point where Matthew, Mark and Luke and John are...
each, there's no unity of the scriptures.
So while we will say that, yeah, Matthew might have certain things that stick out, andsame with uh Mark, Luke and John, um they're all telling the same account, they're all
(38:41):
teaching, even if they're using different emphases.
uh of different parts of doctrine that stick out to them.
They're all teaching the same doctrine.
They're all, it's all the basic message to repent of your sins, to believe in JesusChrist, the son of God who became a man and suffered and died and rose for our salvation.
(39:04):
Like that.
So,
And those gospels all point to the same historical reality.
Exactly.
than one Jesus.
problem is reading narrative, treating that way, doesn't sound bad, but it's what it's notdoing, what it's not saying.
and what makes, what you end up not being able to do then is taking...
(39:25):
So one thing I've noticed that people, I've heard people kind of poo-poo harmonies of thegospel as if that's a bad thing.
as if it's a bad thing to show to the faithful that, hey, while this might not be theexact way that it happened in the exact order, at least it shows you that you can put
these things in order.
(39:46):
Like, okay, when did Mary Magdalene get to the tomb?
Was she with the other women?
Okay, we can put this in that order.
And that's helpful for the faithful for them to see that this actually happened.
But people in our own midst will just kind of unquestionably
say, no, you shouldn't do that.
You should just take Matthew for Matthew, Mark for Mark, Luke for Luke and John for John.
(40:10):
And they, and what you end up, you end up putting like a shackle on them all and notallowing the scriptures to be that, that united word of God with one author, the Holy
Spirit.
If you isolate Christ to individual stories, He can't be the Lord of all with allauthority on heaven and earth.
(40:33):
And so there has to be, we have to be able to make uh reference behind the story and tothe, true historical reality.
Yeah, yeah.
And uh to take, and that actually is taking it for what it says much more faithfully thansaying, so it's really disingenuous for people to say, well, let's just read the Bible and
(40:54):
let the Bible, you know, communicate to us its narrative.
When in reality, they're not doing that.
They're not allowing the Bible to speak for itself.
Instead, they're imposing on it this view, this way of reading scripture where you havethese two horizons where
you're going to end up just imposing your own story onto it.
(41:18):
But what I really like, what you said this a couple of times, and I want to elaborate moreon this is that stories don't convict.
And also I'm going to, I'm going to add to that stories don't make assertions, right?
And as like, as Luther said to Erasmus, the Holy spirit is no skeptic.
If you take away assertions that is confessions of the truth, then you take awayChristianity altogether.
(41:45):
And I think that this has, we do see this in sermons where they can't just say, this isright.
This is wrong.
We should repent of this.
We should affirm this truth, reject this error, you know.
So how many sermons that are that are considered good and that sound great?
(42:07):
Can you actually pinpoint what they said?
Can you actually somewhere and say, he said this is good and this is bad.
And a lot of sermons are.
um More like literary uh writing or storytelling where it's very impressionable and it canseem very powerful, very evocative.
(42:28):
But when you get to the end.
actually don't know don't know what it said I can't say it can't take anything away fromit propositionally.
The sense of that's true.
That's right.
So yeah, exactly.
And I think that that's purposefully done.
And I've encountered this attitude that if you make propositions, then your sermons arejust lectures, they're doctrine air.
(42:56):
I can't offend.
Yeah.
Well, let's, let's use that illustration with kids.
If I never tell my kids, uh, something they can interpret as there's a boundary, there's ahard line.
Of course, they're going to be very happy with that, but then they can do whatever theywant and hurt themselves and, cause all sorts of trouble.
Uh, we do need, we do need actual, uh, literal language that tells us how to live and wantto believe.
(43:21):
can't just tell your kids stories and not actually instruct them.
When they do something wrong, can't tell them a fairy tale.
Although the moral of the story is maybe I should think about it differently next time.
Okay, so it reminds me of this joke that my dad has told me.
So there's this Chinese man who has these sons, right?
(43:42):
And he tells them this story.
He wants to teach them a lesson about honesty.
So he tells them a story about George Washington cutting down the cherry tree.
And he says, George Washington cut down the cherry tree.
And when his father asked him, did you cut down the cherry tree?
His son said, father, I cannot tell a lie.
Or George Washington said, I cannot tell a lie.
(44:03):
And so he, so he, so he did not punish him because he told the truth.
So then later on, like to like a week later than the father then just comes just blazingmad and to his children and says, who threw the outhouse into the Ramsey river?
And then his middle son finally raises his hand and says, father, I cannot tell a lie.
(44:27):
I threw the outhouse into the Ramsey River.
And then so his father proceeds to just whip him and beat him and he's just really wailingon him.
And then his son says, father, well, I don't understand.
George Washington told the truth that he cut down the cherry tree and he didn't getpunished.
(44:47):
And then his father says, aha.
George Washington's father was not in the cherry tree.
So anyway, sorry, you have to say it with like the, I know maybe that's a littlepolitically incorrect, but it's with all respect.
Um, so, but that, I think that, that, that just reminded me of that joke one, maybe I justwanted to tell a joke, but that reminded me of that joke.
(45:14):
What it had to do with anything.
No, is that you can't, it illustrates that you can't just.
discipline and teach your children simply by telling them stories, they'll interpret it intheir own way.
So that's like, oh, so that means I can just go and do that.
then, whatever, uh you're going to have, you're left to your own devices to interpret itand you're absolutely.
(45:40):
you become your own authority.
If scripture is not the authority, an authority that can't speak or tell you not to dosomething is not an authority.
that's the root issue of this.
Now, conversely, we can read the Bible and the Bible stories as stories to our children.
It's not a scientific textbook.
We have to lecture our kids.
We can make it.
(46:00):
There are good stories.
Yeah.
And treat them.
And so there is a way to do it.
That's right.
And they're good.
They're,
You also have to say, you know, the commandments are not, you know, take them or leavethem.
This is God's authority.
So with preaching, mean, there is a place for anecdotes and
A story can be useful.
That's what a parable is.
(46:20):
But you've got to be careful.
You cannot get caught only in story mode because it's very safe for a pastor to tellstories because it's very unlikely to offend anyone.
Yeah.
mean, when you, okay.
So when you sit down, you probably don't go to movies very much or maybe, I don't know,maybe do you watch movies?
Occasionally.
It's hard to find movies worth watching as I get older, but...
(46:41):
But you just consider when you go to a movie, you got your nice bucket seat, you got yourcup holder, your popcorn holder, and you kind of settle in, you know, and you just, you're
part of it.
Now you're part of this story.
Then you can talk about what you think about the different characters and what you reallythought was going on.
(47:03):
And that's part of the fun of it all, right?
When, if the sermon,
This is probably why we shouldn't have padded pews maybe, I don't know.
Maybe, it, in fact, just get rid of the pews.
has become pejorative word for you're telling me.
Yeah, like I'm sitting here with my popcorn or maybe you don't have, maybe you got yourcoffee or something and you're just like, all right, this is the part of the service where
(47:28):
I get to just relax and just kind of be part of whatever's, know, and so they, so you getlost in whatever kind of narrative is being proclaimed and it's not really proclaimed.
It's just being presented.
about that you may take if you're Christian, you can take some insight from.
I described a lot of sermons as cozy storytime.
(47:50):
Yes.
Sitting back relaxing, get your nice blanket over you.
Instead of a sermon that tells you, you are a sinner condemned, you must turn and repent.
Yeah.
This is uncomfortable.
It's uncomfortable for the pastor and it should be uncomfortable to people listening.
And like, this is what Jesus says, this is why Jesus says it, this is what he wants you tobelieve, this is what he did.
(48:15):
That's why we preach this is God's word.
It's not my personal word as a pastor.
Yeah, I remember when I was, I think I wasn't a vicar yet.
I was in seminary, but um I preached for this pastor and he looked over my sermon and,afterwards, you know, people are always when you're a young preacher, you're just started
(48:37):
off.
People are always very encouraging and like, very good sermon.
And I remember afterwards, this one lady said, you know, if, can I give you some advice?
I was like, yeah, sure.
And she said, you had a pretty good sermon, except you need to tell more story.
(49:03):
And I was like, I'm pretty sure I shouldn't do that.
The greatest compliment for me after a sermon is not someone telling me it was a goodsermon.
It was fun.
It's that troubled me.
That bothered me.
I take that as the greatest compliment.
It disturbed me.
It woke me out of my slumber.
My comfortableness with sin.
think that's that's one of the greatest things.
(49:25):
But they don't want no one naturally wants that.
Our flesh wants to be in the cozy movie chair.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Make me feel at home.
Yeah.
put a blanket over you.
Yeah, that is, uh no, well that that's really, that's, really helpful to, uh, to talkabout this because it, it's not just this thing going on in academia.
(49:50):
It's something that's very much alive and noticed by people in the pews.
Um,
A real fear of making assertions and saying exactly what we should do.
oh
say this, that while this idea of reader response theory uh undermines the objective truthof scripture, again, like I said, every evil and every lie is a corruption of what is good
(50:16):
and what is true.
So there is some truth in that the hearer is a necessary component, except it's not thathe adds
his own kind of preconceived narrative themes to it, but rather that he, as Jesus says,those who have ears to hear, let them hear, be do not, and don't just be hearers of the
(50:43):
word, but be doers, you know, be active listeners, pay attention and humble yourselfbefore the word of God.
Because this is, think what, you know, it takes skill.
It takes skill to preach a sermon, but um
It also takes skill to listen to a sermon.
And wouldn't you agree, Hannah, that you, mean, Ken, do you think that you going to churchyour whole life, if you compare yourself right now to when you were like 10, do you think
(51:13):
you're better at listening to sermons now than when you were 10?
Yeah.
And that's because you've been going to church and you've been hearing sermons, um youknow, every week.
And so that's skill and that's where I think some people can get frustrated with it, thatthey're not quite as skilled in their ears to listen to sermons, to know what to look for.
(51:37):
We look at what is the text about?
What's the account about?
What is the say about?
My sinful condition was the say about the falsehood being pushed from the world, you know,what the devil is trying to do, what my hope is, um how I can have certainty of
(51:59):
forgiveness and salvation and all that kind of stuff.
And this is where learning the themes of Scripture is helpful, right?
To like go through the catechism that gives you the chief parts of Christian doctrine.
But that takes skill.
That takes a lot of work.
oh
practice, you don't say I'm going to start running and go on a marathon.
That's right.
(52:19):
Yeah.
So to have that focus, just like when the seed was scattered, fell on the hard path, itwasn't even understood.
Yes.
Had no effect.
So we've got to not just come out of church and go, well, that was a really great sermon.
I was entertained and not think about God's word or what actually the preacher said.
Yeah.
But it should lead us into God's word and not out uh of to kind of the story world.
(52:45):
Yeah, yeah.
so, and I understand that a lot of people can get frustrated with hearing sermons.
because maybe they're not as skilled.
There could be something going on in their lives that is distracting them.
But one advice that I will give to people is, and I've tried, I've put together theselittle devotions to try to help my parishioners um for the upcoming Sunday.
(53:09):
So I wrote a devotion on each of the Proppers.
So you got the Old Testament Lesson, the Gradual, the Epistle, and you got the Intro andall these things.
the gospel.
whether you're reading a devotion with it or not, you know, that's up to you.
But I think what is really helpful, and Hannah, this is something that you could do thatI'd recommend to you as well, is find out, okay, what are the readings for this coming
(53:38):
Sunday?
Right?
So this, uh I don't know when this is going to get...
This is being recorded, I think, right before the fifth Sunday after Trinity, right?
so that the gospel lesson is Luke five, right?
Is the, the, Jesus making them fishers of men, you know?
And so what's, what, what's a good thing to do and what's helpful to you as a, as a, a uhhearer, an active listener to the word of God is go ahead and read those ahead of time.
(54:05):
during the week and think about them.
And so that you have the word of God in your mind and in your heart so that when you'relistening to the word of God, you're not just coming into church like, I wonder what
church is going to be about today.
You know, like this looks like, it's just like you do with a movie.
Like, I wonder if there's going to be a twist, you know, like, no, you come in prepared,not to be entertained, but to be fed and to be encouraged in what you, uh what is
(54:33):
rightfully yours by.
And hopefully you're not being fed just baby food that's really easy to take in.
And St.
Paul talks about that.
Don't be as infants as children.
Yeah.
And we're looking for some spiritual meat that may be kind of hard to chew.
And so don't think because it's not easy and accessible that it's not helpful for you.
You have to wrestle with that.
(54:54):
It may not come that week, that month.
And another analogy too, that I've used for people is to use a sports analogy, a footballanalogy is as the pastor, I'm like a quarterback, right?
And you're the receiver.
Now I, because the pastor is a man, he's a, he's a jar of clay holding a great treasure,right?
(55:15):
And so he's not always going to deliver it as well.
mean, you can't possibly be a perfect steward of such an amazing
You know, treasure as the word of God, right?
So, but, to use this analogy, I'm like the quarterback, you're the receiver.
If I under throw you, it's you're not going to be able to catch it.
(55:37):
want to, I, I, I want to throw it just a little bit above you so that you have to reach upfor it.
So there is something, uh, there's something that is expected of you as a listener toreach for it and.
you're never challenged, you will never get any better.
That's right.
I think some of the sermon should actually challenge even those who are very, veryserious, thoughtful Christians.
(56:05):
Yeah.
And not be stagnant and think, well, I've got it all.
I know scripture backwards and forwards because I heard 2000 sermons.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
And there are times where I might just overthrow it.
And I'll say, hey, my bad.
I'm not trying to overthrow it, but sometimes I might overthrow it.
Sometimes I might under throw it.
But that's the, that being a steward of the word includes...
(56:30):
labor, you know, it's in practice and training.
And it, and I would, I would really encourage people not to get discouraged.
You know, I don't know how many times I've heard someone say to me either about a sermonor about a Bible class or just about a conversation.
Well, all of that just went way over my head.
It's like, well, you know, stand on your tiptoes a little bit, see if that helps, youknow, I mean,
(56:53):
have to get out of the cushy chair sometime.
yeah, I mean, and yeah, it's true that some people are just way too highfalutin and itgoes like we I just recorded with with the Lee brothers and they were commenting to me
after we recorded it.
They're like, yeah, we're that was a bunch of inside baseball and that probably went overa lot of people's heads like, yeah, probably did my bad.
(57:15):
OK, but.
But don't just write someone off.
Don't use like that one over my head as an excuse for now I don't have to listen unlessit's like placed gently into my lap.
you know, treat it if it is God's word as God's word.
Yeah.
I'm going to say, well, God's word's kind of hard for me, so I'm not going to believe.
(57:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm more of a man's traditions kind of guy.
God speaks it really nice and easy, I'll accept it.
Otherwise, that's quite problematic.
But we don't think about that, right?
is that in First Thessalonians receive the word, not as word of men, but as it is the wordof God.
Yes, and as James says, with meekness, receive the Word, you know, which is able to saveyour soul.
(58:04):
um Yeah, we receive it with meekness, as Isaiah says, that God looks at the one who iscontrite and heartened, who trembles at his Word.
If we came to church as starving sinners, someone who has not eaten for a while wouldn'tsay, well, this food's kind of hard to chew.
It's not worth the effort.
(58:25):
Yeah.
It'd be like, oh, well, I'm glad.
Right.
This is going to be good for me.
Yeah.
And so, uh yeah, it changes the mindset from entertainment to uh something much morelofty.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, this has been a really, really good discussion, Pastor Hale, and I appreciate youcoming on.
Thanks.
(58:45):
And we finally have, I feel like you're like checking up on me, you know, as the editor,you know, you got to make sure that everything is going well.
But yeah, yeah.
And
We'll see you next time.
guess next time you're in town will probably be in the fall or autumn or something likethat ah So yeah, so we'll have to sit down and talk about something else.
(59:07):
ah Maybe maybe we could talk about like Bob Dylan Have a good story
Yeah.
Well, you've been listening to Christendom and the World, brought to you by ChristianNews.
Please like and subscribe and share our videos if you like these, if you find thesebeneficial, if you know other people who would benefit from this discussion here with
(59:32):
Pastor Hale.
Please share it with those people as well.
And join us next time for another episode of Christendom and the World.
and how close do these have to be?
that?
You can hear him?
just in there if it's pointed
So here we are with another episode of Christendom in the World brought to you byChristian News.
And speaking of Christian News, we're here with the editor of Christian News, ReverendPhilip Hale.
(00:24):
So, yeah, good to see you.
So, could you tell us a little bit before we, there's something else I wanted to discusswith you, more of a theological nature, but before that,
uh Why don't you tell us a little bit about uh how you got involved with Christian News?
I know I remember seeing uh your articles being published in the paper years ago.
(00:51):
How did all that happen and what direction have you been able to take Christian News?
So when I was a young pastor, had a small church in a village in Nebraska and had plentyof time to study and read.
would present papers at a conference in Lincoln where Pastor Clint Poppy was.
(01:15):
And uh so every six months I would do a bunch of research and try to read a lot of Lutherand the Orthodox Lutheran fathers and just kind of get to know a topic really as well as I
could.
Yeah.
Okay.
Present.
I did um various topics.
I think the one that first got on um hermeneutics radar was I did one on child prevention.
(01:37):
Okay.
From all, all different angles.
And he would just get these from friends or someone and he would just publish them.
He did call me up, call me up at like six or seven in the morning.
He'd already read it that morning.
And he just, he wanted to just touch base, say hi, didn't say much.
And, and I think the one that impressed him the most was I did a paper on John six.
(02:02):
Hmm.
think I read it.
Was once once more second more to.
that was a follow up.
That was a follow up one, but I did a long, just a very, uh, do it from a Lutherperspective, just, just exegete the passage and interpret it in a traditional Lutheran
manner using, um, a lot Luther's, uh, sermons and, and Kimnitz and so on and theconfessions.
(02:25):
And, uh, that one, um, was, was published and kind of got my name.
So it was just, I would write stuff and I was sending it out to friends, whoever wanted itjust.
something to do and keep me engaged.
And um he would publish stuff.
didn't really, we only talked maybe twice.
And I did visit in 2019, I think it was, there was a conference here at Camp Trinity.
(02:50):
It was during the eclipse.
Well that would have been 2017.
oh
seven.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
I think I've been editing since 19 maybe but I was a speaker and that's the only time Imet Herman on in person and spent a couple days here got to have lunch a lot of a lot of
time to visit and it was very enjoyable, but didn't didn't talk about much else.
(03:14):
Just real friendly conversation.
And and then when they were looking for an editor, the
the family, the children of Herman Otten.
My name came up and I came out here and I said, well, I'm willing to consider it.
don't want to hide my views and if I can do a decent job and do the best I can, if it canbe a positive benefit for the church, then I'm happy to do that.
(03:43):
And so I don't pretend to be uh a new Herman Otten or anything, but very different a lotof ways.
bad out of it.
yeah, yeah, not to his stature physically or otherwise.
uh No, you're pretty I do like to exercise, but I haven't haven't done any triathlons orany.
(04:05):
Yeah.
Great feats.
You should just do, you should just do start a triathlon.
And I think you start with biking, right?
okay.
Okay.
So just like go straight to the biking.
So Hermanotten did publish, I think, a picture of me running with a long stroller withfour little kids in it.
(04:26):
I think he did publish that in Christian news.
It was just a 5k local in Nebraska and everyone loves that picture.
It was all in line, ah the kids and that was a lot of fun.
So I do like to exercise and stuff, but.
So that picture could possibly get you elected to some office or something.
(04:52):
OK, so yeah.
So then uh what are particular things that pop out to you?
I mean, you've published.
You know, as far as synodical stuff, mean, I, you know, there's the stuff going on withConcordia's and stuff like that.
But what are some other things just generally that interest you that, you know, that stickout to you as something that you'd like to publish?
(05:18):
Yeah.
I think, I think looking especially at what the, schools do, the seminaries and collegescomes to mind and theologians and also Christian news as since it's not sponsored by
Senate, it's not, you know, edited.
We don't need approval and those things we can be, be honest about the problems we have inour midst and not, not try to be political or just kind of.
(05:45):
hide them under the rug.
so, but also I think, uh, as a vehicle for, you know, in a positive way of, of solidsermons and devotional materials of just things that I, that are interesting, right.
Uh, for things in the world that may seem just like secular news stories, but you can viewthem from a Christian point of view and maybe take something from them, even though it's
(06:10):
not how they were intended.
So.
I like to think of stuff that would be interesting to just an average Christian.
Yeah.
And we also need to be informed about what's going on in the world.
think I took over right before COVID.
And that was a fascinating time of past orally for dealing with.
(06:32):
you know, should we be having church?
Is church essential?
Is this, you know, should we be taking a stand in a way to really give encouragement wherethey're maybe not hearing it anywhere else?
Or should I going to hear it, you know, in the secular media?
um
interesting though how COVID did sort of open up more uh interest among people, uh not ina deeply theological manner, but even in the secular realm, you know, that people start to
(07:02):
be more open to, you know, questions of morality, questions of ethics, and maybe perhapsGod's role in stuff.
uh
authorities of what they're told may not be.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like there's a certain distrust.
Like I always tell people that after COVID, I, I, I don't know if I became a conspiracytheorist, maybe to an extent, but I certainly became more sympathetic to the impulse of
(07:33):
that.
Like how that happens when you're, when information is hidden from you or spun in such away that really affects your everyday life.
It's interesting how that has, and I don't think that that
that train has slowed down of, know, when people really do, they want to question things,you know, even things like evolution.
(07:54):
I think we're finding that people are more open to hearing something else besides thereceived orthodoxy that's been, you know, very coldly shoved down our.
I just printed an article on Ken Ham, but it was by a big newspaper.
Really?
all about it.
It wasn't belittling him.
(08:15):
It was like, he's actually done some impressive things and we kind of have to take himseriously.
He's kind of won in a sense.
To hear it from someone who's not a believer is, is I find always kind of interesting.
because even I remember, you know, 10, 10, 15 years ago, Ken Ham was he was the guy thatthat all of the kind of respectable Christians who still want to be a conservative would
(08:45):
they would distance themselves from Ken Ham.
Yeah.
And and say, well, that's not good science.
And and they were.
to take a stand.
Yeah, yeah, it's the same kind of thing.
You don't want to be called a fundamentalist.
You don't want to be perceived in that as just kind of an amateur, uh you know.
Someone who takes a stand and is consistent even the world can respect that.
(09:08):
Yeah, even if they don't agree with it You're not you know how to read blowing in thewind.
Yeah.
Yes following what everyone else is doing That's right, and you state you stand out and itcan be a definitely good thing.
Yeah
Yeah, and so I guess that teaches us patience then, that you gotta just keep your hand tothe plow and...
The world changes so quick.
(09:29):
What we think is deeply unpopular might likely be okay.
And I think I've even starting to see that we went through kind of the problem of woke ismand all this.
And you could see it took over in a lot of ways through official outlets, through a lot ofleaders.
But then you saw this, this backlash, kind of this grassroots.
(09:52):
Yeah, I I haven't I don't follow
Carefully studies, but I did I did hear recently that uh That some studies have some pollshave shown that approval for gay marriage, know, it's skyrocketed after Obergefell in 2015
Which tends to happen?
uh but ah But I've heard that it's actually kind of gone down a little bit just throughall the the LGBTQ pride nonsense
(10:22):
I think tracing trends, do especially a lot with family and marriage and children.
Kind of a topic I've always cared about.
And to see how the world trends, don't know necessarily the theological reasons ormotivations, to their, they're part of this life and God created them for us.
(10:43):
And to follow that and how people view, I think is helpful because they impact our, thatis the future of the church.
Yeah, well, what's and that's another issue.
It's amazing how, because like Herman Atten was harping on that issue for a long time.
My grandpa was actually, my grandpa actually, it was one of the things that got him introuble at the seminary because he was telling the students to stop practicing birth
(11:08):
control and to have children.
they were, that was a no-no.
That was like, that was something you just don't touch.
But I mean, there was a symposium at Fort Wayne, uh not that, actually like seven, eightyears ago where professors like that you would not have expected, like came out.
(11:32):
Yeah.
That it's okay to criticize the Missouri Senate and kind of its uh unofficial officialstance is not necessarily correct.
because I remember in 2011, I want to say, Harrison went before Congress and spoke againstthis mandate to provide birth control pills uh and specifically focused on how they're
(12:02):
abortifacient, which of course is
that's not controversial to your kind of typical Missouri Synod Lutheran, abortion iswrong, right?
And then he said, and overall his speech was very good, but in the speech he said, we'renot opposed to all forms of birth control, only those that are aborted of facian.
And I thought to myself, speak for yourself, man.
uh But I also, that didn't.
(12:27):
take away from like, I was thankful for his, I thought he gave overall a very good uhresponse.
But you look at where people are from that point to now, and like the kind of conservativeconfessional Lutheran cohort in the Missouri Synod is much more open to criticizing the
(12:48):
birth control culture.
They're not all drawing the same conclusions.
oh
on the positive side of being proponents of family.
uh You you can't preach the gospel if you don't have people.
It's very basic things, but we've been afraid to speak about those things.
(13:09):
A lot of people.
Yeah.
Hermanod in Christian News was not one.
I remember reading that even when I was quite young.
m
the, um, uh, Walter A.
Meyer still speaks.
He covers a lot in there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So,
So I enjoy talking about topics that maybe are, you know, uh, not as popular or polite inthat kind of academic sense.
(13:31):
Sure.
practical.
Well, and so speaking of topics, I think, and I have appreciated uh what you've written onall sorts of things um and your insights and your, you know, your careful study.
One book that I got very excited about that you, that you, I think you gave me uh was onthe authority and inspiration of scripture.
(13:55):
can't remember the name of it.
Yeah, my wife tried to talk me out on naming it that and she was right.
It's a too long name.
It was like confessing confessing the scriptural Christ against modern idolatry.
Okay, and then it's got another subtitle.
Yeah, I know, know.
It's like like a German, you know.
I tried, I was still young enough.
tried to be academic and to fit in.
(14:17):
I realized very quickly the reaction of that book.
I was never going to fit in.
Yeah, well, I mean, it reminds me of like, like Luther's, one of Luther's books that thesewords of Christ, this is my body, etc.
still stand against the fanatics.
That's the title.
have romanticism for long, up-boost titles.
(14:38):
but anyway, what I really enjoyed about that was your discussion on something that I havenoticed kind of on my own, but I wasn't quite able to put my finger on it until reading
what you had to write and then talking with you about it.
And we've had some good conversations just mutually on this stuff.
(14:59):
Is this trend of
what's called narrative criticism.
our listeners, uh I'm sure, are familiar with higher criticism.
We've talked about this on this show.
And Hannah, you remember higher criticism, right?
I'll remind you what it is.
Higher criticism or the historical critical method of interpreting scripture is that youtreat scripture as...
(15:28):
uh
as a collection, as a kind of put together final product of a bunch of collectedtraditions.
So the books of Moses, for example, the theory goes is that while you had your J-E-D-P,you had kind of four different traditions, and then they were written down various times
(15:53):
throughout the centuries.
And then what we know as
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy were actually finally redacted andcompiled and written down in like the fifth or sixth century BC.
And then they do the same thing with the New Testament and try to claim that, well, Pauldidn't really write this.
(16:19):
This reflects more of a later tradition that later developed.
It's very much Adam and Eve didn't exist.
You know, Job didn't get swallowed.
And that stands, that's standing over the scriptures.
You treat them as merely a human product.
then you, so we find then that you have other kinds of like versions of it, which we don'thave to unpack all those.
(16:43):
You canonical criticism, you got form criticism before that.
And so, but that, like what you're saying is, uh, what we're describing here, like yousay, it's very crass.
It leads to these conclusions or helps support these, all these kind of pre-madeconclusions.
Adam didn't exist.
Virgin birth is yeah, that wouldn't happen.
(17:05):
Miracles didn't happen.
All that stuff.
But then see what it's sort of like this modernist, very cold, objective, scientific sortof uh treatment of the Bible that we are going to investigate the Bible and see what is
behind the text and what it really
(17:27):
the essence of what is true.
And it reached a dead end.
Maybe the 60s or 70s where we can't, we don't know Jesus, we don't even know what his namewas.
Yes, and so by the time we are having the debate in the Missouri Synod, by the time thebattle for the Bible is at its zenith in the 1970s, we're kind of Johnny-come-lately's,
(17:50):
really.
It's dead academically.
It's kind of dead academically.
moved on.
Yes.
And other versions that are, they come from the same root issue of denying the inspirationof Scripture, but they approach Scripture very differently where it doesn't seem as harsh
or corrosive.
So, for example, there was actually the motivation of narrative criticism.
(18:12):
Narrative simply means story.
ah And so, it treats the Scriptures as a work of fiction, which fiction,
It doesn't have to be true.
It can still be useful and fruitful and productive, even though it didn't actually happen.
And so that came from a literary analysis that was imported by biblical scholars whothought they were tired of fighting over, did this happen or not?
(18:37):
They wanted to get to something positive they can use in churches.
Good motivation, but they didn't address the fundamental issue of what is scripture?
Is it God's word or is it man's word?
And so, and this came in and it has even within the Missouri Senate, have been usedacademically because you can't say a story is wrong.
(18:58):
Yeah.
A story, a story is a story.
It's harmless.
Yeah.
If I say that, uh like, we were talking about Pride and Prejudice with the Schliebrothers, if I say Pride and Prejudice is wrong, or if I say Jane Austen is lying, well
no, she's not lying, she's just writing a story.
the stories like a lot of story came from like fables and fairy tales.
(19:19):
How do you interpret those?
Yeah.
Well, that was imported in because basically you can, you can say what you want and you'renever actually wrong.
Now that plays in more on a philosophical intellectual level of the rise of postmodernismthat we know that today when, when people would say, well, no one's really wrong.
have your version of truth.
I have mine.
And that fits in with narrative that each different tradition.
(19:44):
The most liberal uh Christians who deny the resurrection can use narrative to saysomething positive about Jesus.
Conversely, even the most conservative can use it and they can try to support the faith,but they're actually undermining the very foundation of all doctrine that is scripture.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So just, I want to, I want to kind of summarize this point so that we can, we can really,really dig into this.
(20:09):
Um, so basically you have, you have modernism, which is a cold, rationalistic approach toGod's truth.
And then you have postmodernism, which is sort of like, I've described it as kind of theresentful battered child of modernism who resents his father for being too cold and stern
(20:32):
and
But also kind of and so he's always rebelling against that but he also has inherited allthat same stuff Right, they do the same things
But they do it in a way that they don't, they don't think they're going to get toobjective truth.
There's no, no, to dig down to.
Yeah.
So, and this is why this is so hard to resist for people because you, so with modernism,you get things like the Jesus seminars, the historical Jesus, where they're going to try
(21:01):
to figure out, this is actually, if Jesus did exist, this is what he actually would havesaid or done.
And these are the things that are just not true.
But then it gets to the point where people are, like you said, they're sick of arguingabout that.
So what's appealing about it is they say, how about we all just agree that we're justgoing to read the Bible?
Let's just read the Bible for what it is.
(21:21):
Now, who would argue against that?
ah I'm all for that.
Sounds good.
But academically, they refuse to really bring up any divisive questions of, it actuallymatter that Jesus was raised from the dead?
The divinity of the Son of God.
So all of these issues.
(21:43):
so narrative is a way that allows the story of Scripture as they see it to inhabit its ownimaginary world.
It's one of a former, uh, sermon professor and the Missouri Senate said, uh, creates itsown fictive world, own fictional world.
And so what you're reading in scripture, creates its own world in your mind.
(22:06):
You, cuts off the reference to reality and to the historical reference of the Bible.
And if you read the Bible, it does not read like a fairy tale.
The problem is you have historic references to people and the places and the things, andit talks to the reader directly.
That's disallowed in narrative criticism.
Now, another thing I want to ask is uh with narrative criticism, it seems like the term,the title of it.
(22:32):
And similar to historical criticism, who would be against looking at the scriptureshistorically?
Right?
So who's going to deny that there are narratives that accounts stories, we call it Biblestories, right, in the Bible.
So that seems to...
(22:52):
confuse a lot of people and they can see that as like, this is just reading the story ofJoseph and his brothers and gleaning insight from it, applying it to my life.
That all sounds fine, right?
And it works well with something like the parables.
The parables are in essence fiction, right?
They're stories that didn't necessarily happen, but could have that are understandable.
(23:17):
Well, other parts of scripture, we talked about uh Adam is created as the first man.
um If you take that only as fiction, you avoid a lot of very essential questions.
The same thing throughout scripture, you have different uh
different types of literature in the Bible and you can't read them all the same way.
(23:37):
um
And it seems like this used then to, this narrative approach is used to promote, there'slike a self, there's kind of an imposed meta-narrative, that kind of put on to the
narrative of scripture.
(23:59):
So for example, you might say that, uh
Let's take, let's first use an example of a book.
The Wizard of Oz is represents the kind of longing.
(24:20):
during the time of the Great Depression for somewhere over the rainbow of a better time,you know, and that's what that represents.
And so that's that kind of meta narrative that is able to then draw the people uh into thestory.
So then what people will do then, for example, with the story of I mentioned Joseph andhis brothers, that that might the meta narrative is there's an oppressor and there's an
(24:47):
oppressed
And there's, this represents our own personal struggle to be able to overcome um socialinjustices and things that keep us back from our full potential.
So that meta-narrative isn't actually doctrine that's taught in scripture.
It's something that's sort of latched on to the narrative of scripture to kind of drive itfor its own agenda.
(25:18):
Yeah.
So you have, you have themes, a narrative kind of has themes.
The problem is that distances us from the actual words of scriptures, the words thatestablished the doctor and not the general idea.
So, but even in the, the newer CPH commentary series, you'll see pictures on this.
try to identify certain themes, certain stack, sacramental themes or let's do ajustification and, themes in so far as they go actually don't convict.
(25:44):
They don't say much, right?
They're shorthand.
It's the actual words of scripture that establish what is true and then condemn on theopposite side.
And that's the real, it gets us away from the very verbal nature of scripture.
When you're in themes, you can pretty much say anything you want.
And that allows academics, you can have a feminist reading of scripture.
(26:04):
And they can say it with a completely honest face.
And they know that scripture doesn't actually say that, but again, they're reading into itand they're not even shamed by it.
uh
Yeah, it's more of a deconstruction.
It's more of a taking apart of scripture, using it for your own purposes rather than thisis the source.
This is the foundation of the Christian faith.
(26:26):
Well, yeah, seems to affect even if it.
If it's inadvertently affecting them, they don't realize that they're being affected by athing called narrative criticism, but it does seem to affect a lot of preaching where pre
where the the the preacher takes a theme some kind of hobby horse Maybe something like weshould be nicer to the poor people or something which is I mean, I guess that is something
(26:50):
that is taught but maybe some kind of like axi has to grind and then kind of superimposingit on the text and then making the text suddenly about it
But you even mentioned like even themes that are pulled from scripture.
There's a temptation among us conservatives who do believe that the Bible is the Word ofGod.
But then to take, for example, the theme of, um take the theme of the sacraments and thenyou're reading a text that is not talking about the sac.
(27:23):
doesn't specifically mention them.
Yeah, but you impose this theme because you think that's that's the right
certainly I'm not opposed to then making elaborate applications as you are applying thisto the people and then mentioning their baptism, mentioning the Lord's Supper and that's
like that's all that's not what we're talking about here.
(27:43):
We're talking about like taking like the theme of baptism, for example, and then, youknow, reading, you know, having a story and making it all about baptism when it's not
really that's not
not mention water at all.
Yeah.
And it's not really the point of the, so like one example is, um, I mentioned this withthe Schlie brothers that we just had on, that you take the, the, the, the, the, the
(28:14):
parable of the, um, the unrighteous manager, right.
And Luke, was it?
Luke, uh, 18 or Luke 16.
and, and, uh, and so make friends by means of unrighteous mammon.
Well, Jesus is talking about.
using the material things of this world for the good of your neighbor, for the good ofyour fellow Christians who will receive you into everlasting habitations, support the
(28:42):
preaching of the gospel, that kind of stuff.
But what I've heard this where people will say, well, unrighteous mammon actually is therighteousness of faith.
By all means, preach the righteousness of faith.
You can apply the righteousness of faith, but don't turn the parable or the story intosomething that it isn't.
(29:06):
And the problem is you can imply that scripture is unclear.
So if you talk about something the text doesn't talk about, you don't really use the wordsof the text, you're using an application, but you have to start with the meaning.
If you don't have the meaning, all the themes and all that doesn't matter.
And then another point with narrative stories.
I think sermons uh today tend to be very story focused on illustrations and kind of tales.
(29:34):
In fact, that may be the majority of a sermon for some pastors.
Well, what's a story?
A story is something that really can't.
Convict you or speak to you directly right?
It's something you pull your own meaning out of and that's that's kind of the whole day ofa narrative, right?
Scripture doesn't address you directly but you can get ideas that may change how you lookat the world or change your horizon Yeah, and those are actually academic word a lot of
(30:01):
the narrative critics use And the problem with stories is not direct proclamation
Scripture definitely addresses us directly.
Stop doing this.
You should not do that.
Yeah, it's proposition, like has propositions that are true.
it's one, this reminds me also then of, and I wonder if this is related to what's called akind of reader response theory of how you read anything really, but of scripture where you
(30:31):
have the author uh over here and like you mentioned kind of a horizon sort of thing.
So you have two horizons that sort of collide.
So you have the author here.
speaking, so the Bible, right?
You have the hearer or the reader here and he's incorporating his own, he's receiving itaccording to his own lived experiences and his own kind of thoughts and how it's making
(30:57):
him feel and react.
And they're both kind of colliding.
And then when they collide, that's actually becomes the meaning of that he creates themeaning.
is no meaning apart from the reader is quite problematic.
Yeah
And so is that is that in the same kind of is that in the same kind of vein as narrativecriticism?
(31:20):
portions of it, yes.
Originally it didn't start out like that, but that fits in very well with postmoderntheory, which then later became a big part of that because a story, really a fictional
story doesn't make a lot of sense without an audience.
Yes.
Someone reading it.
And you've got to imagine things and think about, in your own term, you create the ownworld in your mind of what it's like.
(31:42):
My world, when I read a novel, may be completely different than yours.
You could read the same novel, or imagine the people very differently.
characters ah but you destroy the absolute truth of God in scripture.
Yeah.
So you were mentioning that the, you're saying then that this is really the, theunderlying assumptions of this are not really any different than higher criticism.
(32:12):
Correct.
But as we've been kind of alluding to a little bit, talking about a little bit, this, justlike in the, in the sixties and seventies, there were, you know, self
proclaimed uh sincerely, people sincerely believing that they are confessional Lutherans,conservative, and they're convinced that they can use this method of interpreting
(32:43):
scripture without sacrificing the integrity of the authority of scripture.
And of course they were wrong.
And this has proven to be wrong.
It seems today you have the same thing going on with narrative criticism, where you havepeople who are sincerely orthodox in their teaching, in their beliefs about the authority
(33:07):
and errancy of scripture, but they insist that they can use this narrative uh method.
And again, just to emphasize again, by narrative interpretation, we're not saying that youshouldn't
consider what the narrative is in front of you.
(33:28):
That's not what that's talking about.
uh But the criticism, yeah, then yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
The narrative criticism, but that they, that they insist that you can use this method ofinterpretation without undermining the, the pure doctrine that's taught in scripture.
they they love the words of method it makes it makes that sound like a tool like a hammerYou use it in a good way.
(33:54):
You can use it in a bad way.
And really it's it's a complete approach to scripture that has doctrinal presuppositionsTo take part of scripture and to read it as if it were not true
That is a denial of scripture.
And so you can't treat the Bible like any other book in certain contexts and think it'sokay.
For example, like the Bible is literature and that's kind of what narrative does to treatGod's word as if it is not God's word is actually a blasphemy.
(34:22):
And that's the problem.
But this, this more in the academic side of things, they get very used to doing that.
ah And it, it really destroys the power of scripture.
And so.
our doctrine would tell us that you cannot read something that is inspired and given bythe Holy Spirit as what any stranger on the street would say, that really devalues uh
(34:51):
scripture and makes it quite base.
Yeah, so what would be just some examples of how this would be utilized in ourconservative confessional Lutheran context of people who sincerely believe the inerrancy
of the Bible and they're using narrative criticism?
What are some examples of how people might do that today?
(35:11):
Maybe people don't even realize that they're doing that, and what kind of rotten fruit canwe see that leads to it?
Like we mentioned, like with preaching and other kinds of...
So one thing it tends to isolate.
So narrative criticism kind of started with the gospels, but it would not want to comparethe gospel of John to the gospel of Mark or Matthew or Luke.
(35:31):
It would isolate and say, is a unique story.
And it almost create their own theology.
This is a Mathian theology.
Well, if each disciple has their own theology, there is no one truth theology.
And as soon as you prohibit references, the epistles,
don't work for a wereful narrative criticism for obvious reasons.
(35:53):
And so they attend to the gospels and then Revelation is also somewhat positive.
So it doesn't, you can't actually do it with a lot of scripture.
But where they do it, it's kind of like their little, it's their little playground.
They can kind of do what they want.
But then the fact of how it then uh changes, you don't get.
(36:15):
It changes the way the law so you might have someone talking about the law from a textfrom an academic point of view but Stories don't tell you're wrong.
You must change and repent.
That's on a practical.
Yeah
yeah, no, that's helpful.
That's a really helpful way of putting it.
Now, there's always every...
I'm always convinced that every lie is a corruption of the truth.
(36:37):
Every evil is a corruption of what's good.
The devil doesn't create anything.
He just takes what's good and messes with it.
So, I mean, there is truth in that, like, Matthew's gospel, there's something to say aboutreading Matthew's gospel.
For Matthew's gospel, there is the personality of the...
of the apostle, of the writer.
(36:57):
um
good story.
We can treat the gospel as a good story.
The problem is from that kind of the academics are starting from the standpoint of highercriticism.
So they're not coming from a neutral standpoint.
They've already denied the historicity of the Bible.
And so we do have to, we can call the Bible a story and treat it story, but is it a truestory that actually happened?
(37:20):
And that at some point we have to...
Yeah, so, okay, so for example, just to elaborate a little bit on this, that you can saythat Matthew...
uh has certain things in mind that he wants to emphasize you know like the emmanuel kindof there's like he he meant he quotes from isaiah 7 14 then he records jesus saying i'm
(37:48):
i'm with you always to the end of the age god with us right you have god with us at thebeginning god with us at the end you have these things that he obviously wants to
emphasize you have things that luke
that stick out for Luke, things that stick out for John.
So we're not denying that these things are real and they exist.
The problem though with, and this is kind of with form criticism and it all kind of comesfrom that same sort of uh position, that what they do is they heighten that uniqueness of
(38:19):
the author so much to the point where Matthew, Mark and Luke and John are...
each, there's no unity of the scriptures.
So while we will say that, yeah, Matthew might have certain things that stick out, andsame with uh Mark, Luke and John, um they're all telling the same account, they're all
(38:41):
teaching, even if they're using different emphases.
uh of different parts of doctrine that stick out to them.
They're all teaching the same doctrine.
They're all, it's all the basic message to repent of your sins, to believe in JesusChrist, the son of God who became a man and suffered and died and rose for our salvation.
(39:04):
Like that.
So,
And those gospels all point to the same historical reality.
Exactly.
than one Jesus.
problem is reading narrative, treating that way, doesn't sound bad, but it's what it's notdoing, what it's not saying.
and what makes, what you end up not being able to do then is taking...
(39:25):
So one thing I've noticed that people, I've heard people kind of poo-poo harmonies of thegospel as if that's a bad thing.
as if it's a bad thing to show to the faithful that, hey, while this might not be theexact way that it happened in the exact order, at least it shows you that you can put
these things in order.
(39:46):
Like, okay, when did Mary Magdalene get to the tomb?
Was she with the other women?
Okay, we can put this in that order.
And that's helpful for the faithful for them to see that this actually happened.
But people in our own midst will just kind of unquestionably
say, no, you shouldn't do that.
You should just take Matthew for Matthew, Mark for Mark, Luke for Luke and John for John.
(40:10):
And they, and what you end up, you end up putting like a shackle on them all and notallowing the scriptures to be that, that united word of God with one author, the Holy
Spirit.
If you isolate Christ to individual stories, He can't be the Lord of all with allauthority on heaven and earth.
(40:33):
And so there has to be, we have to be able to make uh reference behind the story and tothe, true historical reality.
Yeah, yeah.
And uh to take, and that actually is taking it for what it says much more faithfully thansaying, so it's really disingenuous for people to say, well, let's just read the Bible and
(40:54):
let the Bible, you know, communicate to us its narrative.
When in reality, they're not doing that.
They're not allowing the Bible to speak for itself.
Instead, they're imposing on it this view, this way of reading scripture where you havethese two horizons where
you're going to end up just imposing your own story onto it.
(41:18):
But what I really like, what you said this a couple of times, and I want to elaborate moreon this is that stories don't convict.
And also I'm going to, I'm going to add to that stories don't make assertions, right?
And as like, as Luther said to Erasmus, the Holy spirit is no skeptic.
If you take away assertions that is confessions of the truth, then you take awayChristianity altogether.
(41:45):
And I think that this has, we do see this in sermons where they can't just say, this isright.
This is wrong.
We should repent of this.
We should affirm this truth, reject this error, you know.
So how many sermons that are that are considered good and that sound great?
(42:07):
Can you actually pinpoint what they said?
Can you actually somewhere and say, he said this is good and this is bad.
And a lot of sermons are.
um More like literary uh writing or storytelling where it's very impressionable and it canseem very powerful, very evocative.
(42:28):
But when you get to the end.
actually don't know don't know what it said I can't say it can't take anything away fromit propositionally.
The sense of that's true.
That's right.
So yeah, exactly.
And I think that that's purposefully done.
And I've encountered this attitude that if you make propositions, then your sermons arejust lectures, they're doctrine air.
(42:56):
I can't offend.
Yeah.
Well, let's, let's use that illustration with kids.
If I never tell my kids, uh, something they can interpret as there's a boundary, there's ahard line.
Of course, they're going to be very happy with that, but then they can do whatever theywant and hurt themselves and, cause all sorts of trouble.
Uh, we do need, we do need actual, uh, literal language that tells us how to live and wantto believe.
(43:21):
can't just tell your kids stories and not actually instruct them.
When they do something wrong, can't tell them a fairy tale.
Although the moral of the story is maybe I should think about it differently next time.
Okay, so it reminds me of this joke that my dad has told me.
So there's this Chinese man who has these sons, right?
(43:42):
And he tells them this story.
He wants to teach them a lesson about honesty.
So he tells them a story about George Washington cutting down the cherry tree.
And he says, George Washington cut down the cherry tree.
And when his father asked him, did you cut down the cherry tree?
His son said, father, I cannot tell a lie.
Or George Washington said, I cannot tell a lie.
(44:03):
And so he, so he, so he did not punish him because he told the truth.
So then later on, like to like a week later than the father then just comes just blazingmad and to his children and says, who threw the outhouse into the Ramsey river?
And then his middle son finally raises his hand and says, father, I cannot tell a lie.
(44:27):
I threw the outhouse into the Ramsey River.
And then so his father proceeds to just whip him and beat him and he's just really wailingon him.
And then his son says, father, well, I don't understand.
George Washington told the truth that he cut down the cherry tree and he didn't getpunished.
(44:47):
And then his father says, aha.
George Washington's father was not in the cherry tree.
So anyway, sorry, you have to say it with like the, I know maybe that's a littlepolitically incorrect, but it's with all respect.
Um, so, but that, I think that, that, that just reminded me of that joke one, maybe I justwanted to tell a joke, but that reminded me of that joke.
(45:14):
What it had to do with anything.
No, is that you can't, it illustrates that you can't just.
discipline and teach your children simply by telling them stories, they'll interpret it intheir own way.
So that's like, oh, so that means I can just go and do that.
then, whatever, uh you're going to have, you're left to your own devices to interpret itand you're absolutely.
(45:40):
you become your own authority.
If scripture is not the authority, an authority that can't speak or tell you not to dosomething is not an authority.
that's the root issue of this.
Now, conversely, we can read the Bible and the Bible stories as stories to our children.
It's not a scientific textbook.
We have to lecture our kids.
We can make it.
(46:00):
There are good stories.
Yeah.
And treat them.
And so there is a way to do it.
That's right.
And they're good.
They're,
You also have to say, you know, the commandments are not, you know, take them or leavethem.
This is God's authority.
So with preaching, mean, there is a place for anecdotes and
A story can be useful.
That's what a parable is.
(46:20):
But you've got to be careful.
You cannot get caught only in story mode because it's very safe for a pastor to tellstories because it's very unlikely to offend anyone.
Yeah.
mean, when you, okay.
So when you sit down, you probably don't go to movies very much or maybe, I don't know,maybe do you watch movies?
Occasionally.
It's hard to find movies worth watching as I get older, but...
(46:41):
But you just consider when you go to a movie, you got your nice bucket seat, you got yourcup holder, your popcorn holder, and you kind of settle in, you know, and you just, you're
part of it.
Now you're part of this story.
Then you can talk about what you think about the different characters and what you reallythought was going on.
(47:03):
And that's part of the fun of it all, right?
When, if the sermon,
This is probably why we shouldn't have padded pews maybe, I don't know.
Maybe, it, in fact, just get rid of the pews.
has become pejorative word for you're telling me.
Yeah, like I'm sitting here with my popcorn or maybe you don't have, maybe you got yourcoffee or something and you're just like, all right, this is the part of the service where
(47:28):
I get to just relax and just kind of be part of whatever's, know, and so they, so you getlost in whatever kind of narrative is being proclaimed and it's not really proclaimed.
It's just being presented.
about that you may take if you're Christian, you can take some insight from.
I described a lot of sermons as cozy storytime.
(47:50):
Yes.
Sitting back relaxing, get your nice blanket over you.
Instead of a sermon that tells you, you are a sinner condemned, you must turn and repent.
Yeah.
This is uncomfortable.
It's uncomfortable for the pastor and it should be uncomfortable to people listening.
And like, this is what Jesus says, this is why Jesus says it, this is what he wants you tobelieve, this is what he did.
(48:15):
That's why we preach this is God's word.
It's not my personal word as a pastor.
Yeah, I remember when I was, I think I wasn't a vicar yet.
I was in seminary, but um I preached for this pastor and he looked over my sermon and,afterwards, you know, people are always when you're a young preacher, you're just started
(48:37):
off.
People are always very encouraging and like, very good sermon.
And I remember afterwards, this one lady said, you know, if, can I give you some advice?
I was like, yeah, sure.
And she said, you had a pretty good sermon, except you need to tell more story.
(49:03):
And I was like, I'm pretty sure I shouldn't do that.
The greatest compliment for me after a sermon is not someone telling me it was a goodsermon.
It was fun.
It's that troubled me.
That bothered me.
I take that as the greatest compliment.
It disturbed me.
It woke me out of my slumber.
My comfortableness with sin.
think that's that's one of the greatest things.
(49:25):
But they don't want no one naturally wants that.
Our flesh wants to be in the cozy movie chair.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Make me feel at home.
Yeah.
put a blanket over you.
Yeah, that is, uh no, well that that's really, that's, really helpful to, uh, to talkabout this because it, it's not just this thing going on in academia.
(49:50):
It's something that's very much alive and noticed by people in the pews.
Um,
A real fear of making assertions and saying exactly what we should do.
oh
say this, that while this idea of reader response theory uh undermines the objective truthof scripture, again, like I said, every evil and every lie is a corruption of what is good
(50:16):
and what is true.
So there is some truth in that the hearer is a necessary component, except it's not thathe adds
his own kind of preconceived narrative themes to it, but rather that he, as Jesus says,those who have ears to hear, let them hear, be do not, and don't just be hearers of the
(50:43):
word, but be doers, you know, be active listeners, pay attention and humble yourselfbefore the word of God.
Because this is, think what, you know, it takes skill.
It takes skill to preach a sermon, but um
It also takes skill to listen to a sermon.
And wouldn't you agree, Hannah, that you, mean, Ken, do you think that you going to churchyour whole life, if you compare yourself right now to when you were like 10, do you think
(51:13):
you're better at listening to sermons now than when you were 10?
Yeah.
And that's because you've been going to church and you've been hearing sermons, um youknow, every week.
And so that's skill and that's where I think some people can get frustrated with it, thatthey're not quite as skilled in their ears to listen to sermons, to know what to look for.
(51:37):
We look at what is the text about?
What's the account about?
What is the say about?
My sinful condition was the say about the falsehood being pushed from the world, you know,what the devil is trying to do, what my hope is, um how I can have certainty of
(51:59):
forgiveness and salvation and all that kind of stuff.
And this is where learning the themes of Scripture is helpful, right?
To like go through the catechism that gives you the chief parts of Christian doctrine.
But that takes skill.
That takes a lot of work.
oh
practice, you don't say I'm going to start running and go on a marathon.
That's right.
(52:19):
Yeah.
So to have that focus, just like when the seed was scattered, fell on the hard path, itwasn't even understood.
Yes.
Had no effect.
So we've got to not just come out of church and go, well, that was a really great sermon.
I was entertained and not think about God's word or what actually the preacher said.
Yeah.
But it should lead us into God's word and not out uh of to kind of the story world.
(52:45):
Yeah, yeah.
so, and I understand that a lot of people can get frustrated with hearing sermons.
because maybe they're not as skilled.
There could be something going on in their lives that is distracting them.
But one advice that I will give to people is, and I've tried, I've put together theselittle devotions to try to help my parishioners um for the upcoming Sunday.
(53:09):
So I wrote a devotion on each of the Proppers.
So you got the Old Testament Lesson, the Gradual, the Epistle, and you got the Intro andall these things.
the gospel.
whether you're reading a devotion with it or not, you know, that's up to you.
But I think what is really helpful, and Hannah, this is something that you could do thatI'd recommend to you as well, is find out, okay, what are the readings for this coming
(53:38):
Sunday?
Right?
So this, uh I don't know when this is going to get...
This is being recorded, I think, right before the fifth Sunday after Trinity, right?
so that the gospel lesson is Luke five, right?
Is the, the, Jesus making them fishers of men, you know?
And so what's, what, what's a good thing to do and what's helpful to you as a, as a, a uhhearer, an active listener to the word of God is go ahead and read those ahead of time.
(54:05):
during the week and think about them.
And so that you have the word of God in your mind and in your heart so that when you'relistening to the word of God, you're not just coming into church like, I wonder what
church is going to be about today.
You know, like this looks like, it's just like you do with a movie.
Like, I wonder if there's going to be a twist, you know, like, no, you come in prepared,not to be entertained, but to be fed and to be encouraged in what you, uh what is
(54:33):
rightfully yours by.
And hopefully you're not being fed just baby food that's really easy to take in.
And St.
Paul talks about that.
Don't be as infants as children.
Yeah.
And we're looking for some spiritual meat that may be kind of hard to chew.
And so don't think because it's not easy and accessible that it's not helpful for you.
You have to wrestle with that.
(54:54):
It may not come that week, that month.
And another analogy too, that I've used for people is to use a sports analogy, a footballanalogy is as the pastor, I'm like a quarterback, right?
And you're the receiver.
Now I, because the pastor is a man, he's a, he's a jar of clay holding a great treasure,right?
(55:15):
And so he's not always going to deliver it as well.
mean, you can't possibly be a perfect steward of such an amazing
You know, treasure as the word of God, right?
So, but, to use this analogy, I'm like the quarterback, you're the receiver.
If I under throw you, it's you're not going to be able to catch it.
(55:37):
want to, I, I, I want to throw it just a little bit above you so that you have to reach upfor it.
So there is something, uh, there's something that is expected of you as a listener toreach for it and.
you're never challenged, you will never get any better.
That's right.
I think some of the sermon should actually challenge even those who are very, veryserious, thoughtful Christians.
(56:05):
Yeah.
And not be stagnant and think, well, I've got it all.
I know scripture backwards and forwards because I heard 2000 sermons.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
And there are times where I might just overthrow it.
And I'll say, hey, my bad.
I'm not trying to overthrow it, but sometimes I might overthrow it.
Sometimes I might under throw it.
But that's the, that being a steward of the word includes...
(56:30):
labor, you know, it's in practice and training.
And it, and I would, I would really encourage people not to get discouraged.
You know, I don't know how many times I've heard someone say to me either about a sermonor about a Bible class or just about a conversation.
Well, all of that just went way over my head.
It's like, well, you know, stand on your tiptoes a little bit, see if that helps, youknow, I mean,
(56:53):
have to get out of the cushy chair sometime.
yeah, I mean, and yeah, it's true that some people are just way too highfalutin and itgoes like we I just recorded with with the Lee brothers and they were commenting to me
after we recorded it.
They're like, yeah, we're that was a bunch of inside baseball and that probably went overa lot of people's heads like, yeah, probably did my bad.
(57:15):
OK, but.
But don't just write someone off.
Don't use like that one over my head as an excuse for now I don't have to listen unlessit's like placed gently into my lap.
you know, treat it if it is God's word as God's word.
Yeah.
I'm going to say, well, God's word's kind of hard for me, so I'm not going to believe.
(57:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm more of a man's traditions kind of guy.
God speaks it really nice and easy, I'll accept it.
Otherwise, that's quite problematic.
But we don't think about that, right?
is that in First Thessalonians receive the word, not as word of men, but as it is the wordof God.
Yes, and as James says, with meekness, receive the Word, you know, which is able to saveyour soul.
(58:04):
um Yeah, we receive it with meekness, as Isaiah says, that God looks at the one who iscontrite and heartened, who trembles at his Word.
If we came to church as starving sinners, someone who has not eaten for a while wouldn'tsay, well, this food's kind of hard to chew.
It's not worth the effort.
(58:25):
Yeah.
It'd be like, oh, well, I'm glad.
Right.
This is going to be good for me.
Yeah.
And so, uh yeah, it changes the mindset from entertainment to uh something much morelofty.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, this has been a really, really good discussion, Pastor Hale, and I appreciate youcoming on.
Thanks.
(58:45):
And we finally have, I feel like you're like checking up on me, you know, as the editor,you know, you got to make sure that everything is going well.
But yeah, yeah.
And
We'll see you next time.
guess next time you're in town will probably be in the fall or autumn or something likethat ah So yeah, so we'll have to sit down and talk about something else.
(59:07):
ah Maybe maybe we could talk about like Bob Dylan Have a good story
Yeah.
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(59:32):
Pastor Hale.
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