Grace Otten: A Lutheran Life, Pt. 2 — Standing Firm in the Faith

In the second half of this conversation, Pastor Andrew Preus continues his interview with Grace Otten as she reflects on her adult life, her work with Lutheran News, and the shifting landscape of the church in the 1960s and beyond. Grace shares candid memories of the responsibilities she carried, the relationships that shaped her journey, and the convictions that sustained her through seasons of upheaval. From practical matters like managing a household and publishing a newspaper, to navigating theological conflicts and personal trials, Grace offers a thoughtful, firsthand glimpse into a life lived in faithful service to the church and her family. This episode is rich with honesty, clarity, and the quiet strength of someone who remained steadfast through decades of change.

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Should I, do you want me to record like an introduction first or?
I mean you can do it now if you want to wait till later.
We can just do it afterwards.
So we can start?
Yeah, I'm ready whenever.
Okay.
Well, so we're gonna have a conversation.
Okay.
I'm gonna ask you about your life.

(00:25):
How boring.
Yeah, how boring.
Well, I don't think it's boring.
And if it is boring, if there are boring parts, that's good.
Have you noticed that people don't want to be bored ever?
Yeah, right.
But sometimes it's okay to be bored.
Then you kind of learn how to maybe think about stuff, pray about stuff, you know.

(00:49):
Anyway, so uh Mrs.
Grace Atten.
ah
Where were you born?
You were born in Minnesota, right?
Yes, in Minnesota, Minneapolis.
Minneapolis.
So you grew up in Minneapolis?
No, I grew up in a suburb of Minneapolis.
A suburb, okay.
Yeah, Columbia Heights.
Columbia Heights.
Now at that time, was it kind of like a small town?

(01:12):
Or was it?
It was a suburb of Minneapolis.
It was a suburb, okay.
Because I know that...
My grandma, my grandparents lived in Maple Grove.
Okay.
Before my grandpa died.
Then my grandma lived there pretty much the rest of her life for the most part.
But I remember when I was a kid that that area...

(01:33):
was there were a lot more rural area, rural parts of that area, but over the years it'sreally grown up.
but was it, was it basically you were in a kind of like Washington, Missouri?
that- Yeah, but we lived way on the edge.
You lived on the edge.
uh That was the edge at the time we lived there.
Yeah.
And like my dad had purchased a whole acre from one street, from fifth street to sixthstreet.

(02:00):
He had the whole acre through there.
Well then, he didn't always keep up the payments.
And then after he met my mother, and she found out as they were getting more serious, shefound out the situation.
Well, she went to town and made sure that he got that all paid off.

(02:22):
So then it really was his.
Okay.
Okay.
And uh then he, uh we live in fact,
I vaguely remember as a small child living on the bottom part, but then they had somebodyelse on the lower half that lived in the house that was originally the only house on the

(02:46):
property.
And then he built a house oh for himself, you know, for him.
And that was up on the upper half.
and that other was lower.
And then the sad part was that, and this happened when I was in the fourth grade, theirhouse burned and everybody was sick, including my father was home sick.

(03:18):
And my mother, and just, you she was trying to keep us all down to get us well.
And we had to stand at the windows and watch out there as their house burned, you know,and it just.
You know, it was really heartrending.
Yeah, I bet.
We were saying, in fact, I was crying because their house was burning.
But and it was interesting because their son was home from the from the service.

(03:44):
He was home on a break and he had all his uniforms in the house and he did get all thoseout.
Oh, wow.
But uh that was kind of sad to see that.
Yeah.
So now your mom, if I remember correctly, your dad was a Swede, right?
Oh was, is a Swede.
He is, yeah, is, yeah.

(04:05):
suppose he's still, I mean, in the resurrection will he still be a Swede?
According to Revelation 7, he sees those of all tribes and languages.
I suppose he'll be a sanctified, fully sanctified Swede, right?
That's quite a thing.
And your mom was of German descent.

(04:27):
she was from, in fact, from a holy German area, holy and holy.
Yeah, sure.
Down in the New Ulm area.
Okay, yeah, New Ulm, yeah.
Yeah, right.
Yeah, because I, and you went to Bethany and Mankato.
Right.
And so you'd be very familiar with the, I don't know if you're familiar with the, when Iwas, so I didn't go to Bethany.

(04:50):
My wife went to Bethany and my older brothers went there.
And then I went to Mankato State.
But what I really enjoyed, one of the things I enjoyed doing at Bethany was attending thebasketball game between Bethany and Martin Luther College in New And they were big rivals.
Very big rivals.
Did they still do those when you were there?

(05:13):
Oh, really?
What is that?
Martin Luther College isn't that good anymore.
Oh, they're not that good.
Yeah, that's because they're probably that probably means that they're more of a Lutheranschool than Bethany is.
they're if they're not as good at basketball, if you're if your basketball team startsgetting too good, that might mean that you're not that Lutheran anymore.

(05:38):
Well, at Bethany, we got very good because we started
getting players that were good.
Okay.
And Bruno Walensky, who became a very devout Lutheran.
Yeah, yeah.
But he wasn't when he came to college.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that was, mean, my father-in-law, he became a Christian before he came back to thefaith, but he wasn't really quite Lutheran yet before he went to Bethany.

(06:07):
And then he became more Lutheran when he was there.
But then um
I don't know if you remember Dean Dave, David Thompson.
He was the Dean, I think, during- but he was there after I was there.
Yeah, yeah, but he was there when Ruth was going to school there.
Oh, okay, okay.
his story is really interesting.
He had some kind of a scholarship to play soccer at Bethany.

(06:32):
And- He didn't have soccer.
Yeah, that was after your time.
And he became a Christian through-
through going to school there.
there are great stories about that.
And he's a good, faithful Lutheran pastor.
He's served several years now.
Anyway, so that's a little bit off track.
That's like Bruno Wolinski was the same way.

(06:55):
yeah.
Okay, so I want to talk a little bit about your...
Okay, so to fast forward a little bit, you went to Bethany College.
You went to...
I went to Bethany High High school, that's right, because there was a high school at thetime.
And then you, and then where'd you go?
You didn't go to Valpo, did you?
Yes.
Oh, you went to Valpo.
I had to finish up at Valpo because that's the only place that had a program fordeaconesses.

(07:21):
deaconesses, that's right.
So you became a deaconess.
And then that's kind of how you met your husband, Herman Atten.
And I want to get to that in a little bit, what, just for the sake of our viewers whomight be a little bit familiar with
with you or with your husband.
um What's intriguing is that you guys, you raised seven children, they're all still goingto church, to Lutheran churches and uh confessing their faith, raising their kids in the

(07:55):
faith.
And that's something that's really encouraging to see these days because that's not alwaysthe case.
And so um I'm wondering,
in your childhood.
So you've told me a little bit in the past about this, but that you grew up in a strongLutheran home, but your mom's side was more the Lutheran side.

(08:18):
Your dad, he had some Lutheran background maybe in the generations past, maybe, right?
Because he was Swedish, but he wasn't really anything.
But then you said that when your parents met, your dad...
or your dad's parents were excited that he was becoming a Lutheran because that was likeSwedish, right?

(08:41):
Yeah, yeah.
They just thought that was great that he was going with the Lutheran.
And then when he became Lutheran, that was so wonderful, but they all stayed home anyway.
They all stayed home anyway, because for them, Lutheran was like a Swedish heritage kindof thing.
Yeah, Yeah.
So sort of like, you're for a Norwegian.
yeah, you're eating lefse.
Hey, that's great.

(09:02):
Yeah, all right.
Oh, sure.
But the lutefisk, that's a real sign of a...
Yeah, oh yeah.
That's dedication right there.
So growing up then, your mom's side was obviously the more deeply rooted Lutheran side.

(09:23):
But then your dad, he became a Lutheran.
So what was it like growing up with...
Did your parents do home devotions?
What role...
uh
Did your dad play in?
My dad worked nights at first for a number of years.
And mom read every night to us in Eggemeier's Bible storybook.

(09:43):
Okay.
And she went through the whole book.
Yeah.
You know, but I mean, that's what we had for devotions every night.
Okay.
And other than that, no, except that she, the saddest part for her in her life was that wehad no parochial school.
And so that was the main reason I went to Bethany.

(10:05):
oh Because she knew I wanted to be a deaconess.
oh So she thought I should be exposed to religion someplace.
And so that's why she was big deal to go to Bethany.
How did you hear about deaconess studies?
When did that really start?
Lady's aid meeting.
we had a deaconess came there and spoke to us.

(10:26):
And it sounded interesting to me because
You got to work in the congregation, you know?
Yeah.
And I already was getting to the point where I was in the youth group, you know, and allof that stuff.
And I thought, gee, that sounds interesting and sounds like something I would like to do.

(10:47):
And the more I looked into it, the more I thought that's what I wanted to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so then, so you went to Bethany Bethany for high school.
Then you did your Deaconess studies at Valpo.
Well, that's where I finished up, because I started at Concordia.
In St.
Paul?
In St.
Paul, but that was only two years.

(11:07):
Okay, yeah.
So I had to go someplace It was a junior college at the time.
Yeah.
And then when I got to Valpo, they had totally dropped the deaconess program.
But they had all the courses, all the religion courses and everything.
So it was no problem.
I could take all the stuff I was supposed to anyway.

(11:28):
Yeah, so, I mean, I don't know how much you are tuned into the dynamics of the Deaconessprogram, but from my understanding, my limited understanding was that, Velpo had, they
were kind of the main movers and shakers of that at first.

(11:49):
And then I think it was at Concordia in Chicago, River Forest, that started offering it.
um
Because you have, not all deaconess programs are the same, not all visions of deaconessare the same, right?
Some of them uh are portrayed almost as like a uh female version of a pastor.

(12:11):
like an assistant pastor.
Yeah, yeah.
And of course, that's not what you envisioned at all.
And so, what were some of the characteristics and expectations of a deaconess according toyour understanding when you were studying?
Well, for me, and for what I experienced and saw, they were assistants, you know, tothe...

(12:37):
they would be in like the parish program, but not up there by the pastor.
Yes, you worked with the pastor and all that kind of stuff, and all your ladies' aid andyouth group and all the shut-ins and all that kind of stuff.
You still worked around with the pastor, but it was...

(12:58):
separate.
I mean, we were totally separate.
Yeah, I read this book years ago.
It was a doctoral dissertation.
I can't remember the name of the guy who wrote it, but it was uh like the service of womenin the early church.
And it talks about the early deaconesses were often uh historically understood as beingthe

(13:23):
wives of the apostles and of the pastors in the early parts of the church.
And then you would have women who were unmarried.
And you kind of see Paul alluding to this, it seems, in 1 Timothy, where he talks aboutenrolling older women who are widows and who have a reputation of having good works and

(13:49):
living godly lives.
It's unclear exactly what he's referring to there, some kind of program where the churchwould help them, take care of them, and they would serve in the church.
And Paul alludes to this also in 1 Corinthians 7, when he says that, uh you know, like amarried man is concerned about his wife.

(14:10):
And someone who's not married can be more concerned for the work of the Lord.
And so, you have these, you don't have the deaconess
office explicitly instituted, but you have examples of service where the Christians, bothmen and women using their various gifts, are able to help the body of Christ.

(14:35):
And it sounds like what you got and what you were pursuing was being able to betheologically equipped to help people and to be there for people.
I know that like one of the things that they would do is, you know, women's, and I thinkthis is probably still true today, even though we've, live in such a coed society, but you

(15:00):
have like your women's quarters and you have your men's quarters.
And sometimes it is very helpful to have a wise woman who can go and talk to another womanwho might be a little, little bit squeamish about talking to the pastor directly.
Right.
And, ah and so is that the kind of stuff that you guys would be?
Yeah.
Trained at doing, okay.

(15:22):
Yeah.
That is true.
Yeah.
So then, okay, so then you did, you had to do like a summer internship or something in St.
Louis.
Is that what was?
I did.
I was, my class was the last one that just got that short summer.
Okay.
And after the next year, they started, they had to go for a whole year.
I see.
I see.

(15:42):
Okay.
But my class was the last one that had the summer program.
And what year was that?
Well, see.
to put you on the spot.
59.
59, okay.
So now you're there and you're with your friend, you're with a friend, Marie.
Yeah.
And she tells you about, you guys decide to go out, just go drive around out in Missourione day, you got a day free.

(16:06):
And then she says, oh, my brother is a pastor in New Haven.
so you all stopped in there and visited this bachelor, this young strapping man.
And he was tall.
And he was tall and thin.
Yes.
Looked like he worked out, right?
He looked like a ball player.
He looked like a ball player.

(16:27):
And he was.
Yeah, and he was, okay.
Because he played ball for the, he played baseball for the, or basketball.
Basketball.
He played basketball.
Well, he played basketball and baseball, both.
But he played for the seminary, didn't he?
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
So, so anyway, so you met him just kind of on a...
on a day off sort of thing, like a Friday, Saturday.

(16:47):
I dropped in on him and I thought, my word, he is a man.
He's a man.
He was a man.
That's great.
it was just myself, I was taken.
um I just thought he was great.

(17:07):
the fact that he was such a Christian and we discussed theology, well, of course havingMarie.
with the background that she had and all.
You discuss theology often.
And a lot.
we discussed it and then I went back to St.

(17:31):
Louis where I was staying and I gave it some thought and then he invited all five of us,five girls, he invited us all back.
Smooth move.
And he invited us all back just so he could get to see me again.

(17:52):
Yeah, yeah.
But I didn't know that.
I mean, I didn't know that for a couple of years.
He told me the truth about that, inviting us all back.
And he took us to the, what's that cave?
Merrimack, Merrimack?
Yeah.
Yeah, Merrimack.
Yeah.
So he took the whole bunch down to Merrimack cave and paid us all to get in there.

(18:13):
And of course, fortunately, this was the days when it wasn't so expensive.
So he didn't have that kind of a load to pay, but he was fine.
He was kind.
He was fun to be around.
Now at this time, your husband was, so this is 1959.
By this time, he's already in trouble.

(18:39):
He was not...
He had uh charged the, I think it started off, he charged some students with falsedoctrine, some fellow students.
And then if I remember correctly, then the faculty, certain members of the faculty justkind of swept it under the rug.
So he charged them with false doctrine.

(19:00):
And then just, the manure got entangled in the air conditioning unit.
uh
And so then he was not certified as a retaliation to him calling out the false doctrinethat was being taught at the seminary.

(19:21):
But there was this little church out here in New Haven where he had preached there a fewtimes and they knew him and he knew the pastors in the area.
And so they organized for him to get called and ordained.
And because that's one thing I always have to correct people, people say, he wasn'tordained.
I said, no, he was ordained.
He was called and ordained according to Article 14 of the Oxford Confession.

(19:45):
He just wasn't certified.
He just didn't get that certification letter from the seminary.
The letter of approval.
Yeah, yeah.
So at that time, so when you first met him was he, um you know, he was, like I've seen,I've looked at the, through some of the files in Christian news and I found pretty early
letters.

(20:05):
that he was already corresponding with people and writing.
I don't know if he had been, had he started his paper yet, or was that something that hedidn't really get going until you entered the scene?
Yeah.
Okay.
But he was, so when you talked to him, when you guys first met, would you talk about thehigher criticism that was being taught at seminary or evolution, stuff like that?

(20:28):
Well, it's just being taught at Velpo.
At Velpo, okay, yeah.
So you had already experienced some of that yourself.
yes, yes.
And I had already been warned about that.
And of course, having gone to, at that time, Concordia St.
Paul was arch conservative.
And so I had quite a good solid background.
So they kind of, they warned you oh that, you're going to go to Valpo.

(20:51):
It's not going to be quite as Lutheran as you might expect.
And my mother did too, because she came from an area in Minnesota there around New Ulmarea, where there were some that thought Valpo was
Terrible, know just liberal and just you're going to hell if you go there But then therewere others that didn't agree with that, you know, so she had that whole background that

(21:17):
she had lived through mm-hmm and was living through because we would go down there everyyear for the the What do you call that when you all get together?
You talk about Bach fest what?
A reunion, yes.
In New Ulm.
yeah.
I said Bachfest.

(21:38):
Do you remember that?
No.
That was a thing when I was in Mankato.
It was just a big beer thing.
I don't think that you would go to that.
ah For the family reunion in New Ulm, you would get together and you would talk um aboutwhat's going on among the Lutherans.
Sometimes, yeah.
Sometimes it got pretty odd because there were some of those that were there.

(22:00):
and there were relatives that didn't agree with what some of the others were doing, youknow.
So it was interesting times.
What were some of the issues that would be discussed?
Well, some of the dividing issues.
Probably the higher criticism, but I didn't all understand it then yet.
uh yeah, mother knew it wasn't right.

(22:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, and uh
Because she could recognize that this method of interpreting scripture assumes that theBible cannot be taken as historic truth on the surface.
right.
That's right.
That it needs to be investigated by scientific measures.
And she could squeak through all that kind of stuff and just...

(22:45):
Yeah.
That was not...
uh And what's interesting, so you've told me before too, uh that, okay, so what I findinteresting about New Ulm is New Ulm, when I think New Ulm...
I think Wisconsin Synod.
Yeah, but it's not, it's half and half.
Yeah, it's half and half.
And so you said that your mom was staunchly Missouri.
Yes.
She was not Wisconsin Synod.

(23:05):
No, no, Even though they were in fellowship at the time.
Right.
But they were still, she knew that she was not Wisconsin Synod, she was Missouri Synod,old Missouri.
Right.
When I was in seminary, we started an intramural uh kind of touch or flag.
I think it was touch football at the time.

(23:27):
Maybe it's flag football now, but we started this football league and uh we had six teamsand our team, we were called uh old Ms.
So not like old Ms, but old Ms for old Missouri.

(23:49):
So, So yeah, so you grew up really tuned into what's going on.
And so you didn't grow up in this kind of eyes wide open or wide-eyed.
I mean, your eyes were open, but you didn't grow up with this kind of wide-eyed, naivelook at Lutheran church.
Like, oh, well, I want to be a deaconess, so I guess I'll go here, then I'll go here, thenthings will just go nice and smoothly.

(24:14):
You had some good discerning parents and relatives and loved ones and I assume a pastor.
who helped you really prepare for what's ahead?
And he was called back into the army.
the pastor was?
Yeah, Pastor Redkey.
He had been in the military and then he was our pastor.

(24:38):
And mom just thought he was the greatest pastor that had ever lived.
And then he took a call to Chicago.
And when he was there for a little while, he got called back into the service.
Oh.
He was, oh.
Which branch was Ian?
Same one as my uncle.

(24:59):
It had to be the, the army.
Air force?
No.
Navy?
No.
Marines, National Guard?
Marines.
Marines, okay.
Well, that's technically Navy.
toughies.
Yeah, Yeah, okay, so, because I find this to be a problem.

(25:23):
today, and I would think it was probably a problem then, is that people are, you know,they grow up in a faithful congregation, they're hearing the true word of God, ah but they
don't know, they don't realize the kind of leaven that's floating around.

(25:45):
And so they go, they might go to a Concordia.
or even to the seminary, which the seminaries are a lot better now than they were backthen.
But you still gotta be discerning.
You can't just go to the seminary and expect everything's gonna be just hunky dory.
ah And I often do encounter this uh lack of discernment.

(26:10):
if you bring any attention to the fact that, you know, they're...
you got to be careful.
There's some who are not very Lutheran who don't actually by Luther, mean, don't actuallystick to the pure word of God and ape after this or that kind of heterodox teaching or

(26:32):
subtly bring it in.
When you bring that up, you're looked at with suspicion like, you're just a troublemaker.
You're just trying to find faults in people.
And so it's tough because you don't want, yeah, I don't
want to look like a troublemaker, like I'm just trying to make waves or try to get thejuicy details for the gossip mill or something like that.

(26:57):
But you do want to, like I remember running into a guy a while back who had, uh he hadgrown up in a really good congregation that I knew of.
And I had some kind of indirect, like I knew about the congregation, I knew about thepastor.
that had been there for a while.

(27:18):
And, you know, I met this guy from a good conservative confessional Lutheran upbringing,and then he had gone to one of the Concordias.
And I knew that there were some issues at that Concordia.
Now I knew that there were probably some improvements too, but I thought, hey, if you'regoing there and you're studying to be a pastor, you would...

(27:43):
be, you you would notice, you know, some of the, you know, like the diversity initiatives,you know, the stuff that subtly or not so subtly undermines the Christian faith and
confession that is just in these schools.
And uh even though they say that they have gotten rid of them, well, okay, they're stillthere.

(28:07):
And I just asked him about it and he just looked at me like kind of shocked and said, no,everything was great.
Like it was great.
that kind of stuff is just a little bit discouraging because not that I, like I'm glad hehad a good experience, I'm glad he had some good teachers and I'm not denying that he had
good teachers.
I'm sure there were very good teachers there.

(28:28):
But if we go into our institutions, we shouldn't go into our institutions just looking fortrouble.
But if we go into our institutions, just assuming that everything's great and don't youdare say that there's anything wrong, we're doing great.
That's a sure way to fail, right?

(28:50):
To fall into trouble.
so, but, and it sounds like some people had that attitude where it's, they just wantedthis sort of hear no evil, speak no evil, you know, everything's great.
Don't say there's anything wrong.
And yet.
there are other people who recognize, no, there are issues of El Pereso.

(29:11):
There are issues going on in the Lutheran institutions that you have to be aware of.
And you had that kind of direction growing up in your Yeah, right.
And my mother was even concerned about me going to El Po, just to finish my degree as adeaconess, because...

(29:35):
She had all that background from Southern Minnesota about that Valpo wasn't good, youknow, that they taught wrong things.
And they don't, didn't even teach that much bad stuff at that time, uh, in comparison towhat they became.
Yeah.
But, um, they didn't think I should go there.

(29:55):
And then, and so it was a real challenge for mom to let me go there and pay all thosebills.
m
I bet.
unfortunately I never saved enough to help that.
I I put a few pennies in, but in comparison to what it cost, I wasn't very much.

(30:17):
um So it was, when you were there, it was subtle.
the false teaching that was going on in Valparaiso when you were there was not aspronounced.
You had to kind of discern it.
Right, you had to have a discerning eye.
Yeah, but it depended on the professor you took.

(30:37):
Okay.
So it depended on which professor you took for theology and even for some of the historyclasses.
Sure, yeah.
And I always was looking at the government classes and all that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
And I was shocked, you know, because I thought you didn't have to have that in this class.

(30:57):
But it was the slope of things, you know, that's...
That's where I noticed.
But especially in the theology, mean, some of it was way out.
Yeah, no, that's interesting you say that, that you'd also discern it in the historyclasses or other humanities classes.

(31:18):
And I think that's also another mistake a lot of people make even today where they assumethat, well, if we just make sure that the theology professors are all good, then we're
good.
oh
The theology classes are not the only classes that touch on the things of God and His Wordand His truth.
And so, if you have, I mean, you could have a really good Orthodox Lutheran theologyfaculty, but then you go and you take your history class or your political science classes

(31:44):
and they're promoting, you know, communism or something, or some kind of atheisticideology ever so subtly or not so subtly.
Well, that's not, that's just undermining everything that you're learning from the word ofGod.
Yeah, right.
okay.
So then, um so you finished your degree.

(32:07):
Did you have to go back to Valpo then after your summer in St.
Louis?
After your magical summer when you came to New Haven and...
Met the man, That was between my junior and senior year.
Okay.
And like I said, we were the last class that did that.
Then after that, they had to go for a whole year.

(32:30):
But um so then I went back to Valpo and had to finish up my last year there.
And things were about the same.
Theology was weak.
Yeah.
And then you got a position in Iowa.
Yes.
I did not want to go to Iowa.

(32:52):
That was one state I did not want to to.
Really?
And I got there and I fell in love with Iowa.
My brother, my brother Paul, he, when, you know, we fill out these things, uh, before weget like placed in seminary.
And he said, he was asked, he, think he had an interview or something.

(33:13):
He said anywhere but North Dakota.
Well, where do you think he's been for the last 11 years?
North Dakota.
And he loves it.
He's he.
But speaking to Paul, he actually recently had, turned down a call and he said it was thehardest, most difficult decision he's had to make.
ah Because it was a call to a congregation in Iowa that had a nice house for, that theirprevious pastor had seven or eight kids.

(33:45):
He's now, he's a friend of mine, he's now down here in Collinsville.
near us, about an hour and a half from here.
And so they called my brother to be their pastor and he ended up turning it down becausehe just had all sorts of stuff going on that were pressing in North Dakota.
But he said it was very difficult to turn it down.

(34:06):
And guess which church it was that called him?
In where?
In Iowa.
Guess which church it was?
Not Marengo.
Yeah, it was Marengo.
was the church that you served at as a deaconess.
Right.
And I just was there a couple of years ago.
Went through it all, reminisce.

(34:29):
So now how long were you in Marengo?
Just two years.
Two years, okay.
that was two...
Herman was upset because I had to work two years.
Because formerly we always only had to work one year.
And, So you're obligated to put in a certain amount of time.
Yes, yes.
Okay.
And they had, well they knew I had a boyfriend.

(34:52):
Mm-hmm.
And that did it.
And so I had to work two years.
And I was sad I had to work two years, but I, it was a great congregation.
It was a great location.
So I just fell in love with it, you know, and.
Yeah.
And I think that congregation is still doing well.
I don't know if they're still vacant now, but.

(35:14):
From what I've heard, uh they've been very blessed over the years with good pastors andapparently a good deaconess at least once.
At least one, because the next one that came there was shaky.
She was from New York.
They didn't have any Oh, did she want to be the pastor?
that what said?

(35:35):
I think she was leaning that way very much.
She was all Valpo.
Valpo was just...
You know, best university, blah, blah, blah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, uh, you never want to get too attached to your institution.
I mean, I'm, I'm, I, uh, uh, I love my alma mater's, you know, well, a couple of them.

(35:59):
Um, I don't give any money to my undergraduate alma mater because it is as my dad calls ita pagan institution.
What's the end?
Uh, University of Minnesota Morris.
Oh.
And you know, it's a state school.
It was, you know, decent education.
You know, it was better than most.

(36:19):
It was just very, very liberal.
not that they were, I mean, there were some, you know, conservatives there and even someof the liberals like my advisor was uh more on the liberal side.
Actually, probably very liberal, but she was very, very good teacher and I reallyappreciate everything she did for me.
So I don't want to like bash, you know, my.

(36:40):
my institution, but it's not one that I would, I'm not walking around wearing a shirt, youknow, and saying rah rah shish kebah, go go go.
I only remember what they were, what were the, the Coogers, I don't remember what ourmascot was.
What's that?
Are they the Coogers?
Oh yeah, they were the Coogers.

(37:01):
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause they, you guys would play them, wouldn't you?
Yeah.
Cause Leah, Leah played soccer for Bethany.
And so I got to see Leah when she came up to play Morris and then she and I would hangout.
and, uh, anyway, so, um, but you know, like with the seminaries, you know, I, I supportthose seminaries, but I'm not, you know, I don't think it's healthy to just, be so such a

(37:28):
sycophant for your institution as if it can't do any wrong.
And I think a lot of people get blinded by that, um, by that love for the institution.
And you know, that's, it sounds like that's kind of what you're talking about.
But at any rate, okay, so you were there for two years and then the wedding bells startedto chime in Marango, right?

(37:51):
You got married in Marango.
Yes.
And so then all my relatives in St.
Paul just were very angry with me that I got married down there.
And I thought, good heavens, I just spent two years working here.
And I just was very close to all those people and I didn't see anything wrong with it.
But they had to drive too far to go to the wedding.

(38:14):
boy, like what, three hours?
Yeah, it was five hours.
Oh, what's still, that's not, mean.
Yeah, I know.
well.
At he didn't get married down here.
That would have been a deal breaker maybe for them.
now, okay, so what year did you get married?
61?
See, I graduated in 60, 62.

(38:36):
62.
Yeah.
Okay.
Now this is interesting.
Here's some interesting history.
At that time, Trinity had been removed from the Missouri Synod because their pastor wasnot on the clergy roster of the Missouri Synod because he technically was, he was not

(38:59):
certified.
so he wasn't on the clergy roster.
It wasn't acknowledged by...
by uh Sinod to be a pastor.
That's how my brother David, my brother David says uh that God pronounces Synod Sinodbecause it sounds more like a false God.

(39:21):
Because people, it's just like what I saying, people worship their, they have this blindloyalty to their institutions where the institutions can't do any wrong.
And this often happens with Synod.
Right?
So, how dare you imply at all that there's something wrong with the synod?
Yeah, I know.
Like, I thought that the Word of God, the Scriptures were our authority and our Lutheranconfessions, but um okay.

(39:45):
So, he committed like the unforgivable sin, which was to say that the emperor had noclothes and to criticize Sinod.
And so, he was kicked out or he was never certified.
And so, his church was kicked out.
Now they were brought back in I think in 1964.
Yeah.

(40:06):
So, when you got married, you left the Missouri Synod.
I didn't think I was.
You didn't think you were?
No.
And was that so?
I'm curious then with the pastor that was, this would have been the pastor that you servedunder as a deaconess, and he was your pastor for two years in Marengo, and I assume he was

(40:27):
a good, faithful, conservative guy.
yes.
And so he...
He even stopped by to visit us in...
in Missouri.
Yeah.
know, and just was flabbergasted when I went to the door and here was my former pastor.
Now was he older or was he about, was he a younger guy?
ah Yeah, he was a younger guy, but he had uh three children, one of them died.

(40:51):
Okay.
So he ended up with only two children, but.
um Now what was it?
mean, did you have?
He was a good pastor.
He was a good pastor and he was theologically straight.
And so he was, he supported your husband.
was, he was not...
Well, indirectly.
Indirectly, sure, Because you don't want to support him because you might get in trouble.

(41:11):
Oh yeah, yeah, sure, yeah.
So that's what I was curious about then too, is did you have people saying to you, know,Grace, you got to be careful with this guy.
He's a troublemaker.
You're entering into some, some, you know, strange waters here, you know, you're...
Did you have any people trying to warn you about that?
Well, not so much because I already had...

(41:34):
I had gone to a Norwegian college.
Yeah, Bethany.
school.
I mean, to high High school, yeah.
And that was among good German people that was a no-no.
But I already done stuff like that.
Yeah, yeah.
You already got your feet wet with not being Missouri Synod.

(41:57):
Right, right.
Even though, now when you went to Bethany, the ELS was still in fellowship with theMissouri Synod.
right.
For a short time.
Yeah, can't remember when they split from the Missouri, when they broke from the MissouriSynod.
I think that was right after we got married.

(42:19):
Well, the Wells did the Wells broke around the time you got married, okay That's when theybroke but the ELS or the Little Norwegian Synod They broke from the Missouri Synod in the
50s.
My grandpa was I think it was even early 50s cuz my I always forget when exactly wasbecause my grandpa He was in the ELS.

(42:41):
He was probably in the ELS when you were
when you were going to school at Bethany.
In fact, my great uncle Jack, I think was teaching at Bethany.
when I was there.
Not when you were there.
Okay.
But he had taught there.
um Yes.
So, yeah, so there was a little overlap there maybe, but they then ended up, both ended upin the Missouri Synod.

(43:02):
So it's just interesting to me because it's similar paths crossed during all that, eventhough you probably didn't know anything about
either of those guys at the time in the early 60s.
uh except that we considered the ELS synod a good one.

(43:23):
Yeah, yeah.
But that was because of my mom.
Sure, okay, interesting.
Well, and I mean, my family background is Norwegian, so uh we weren't really ELS.
I we kind of were.
I I grew up partially in the ELS.
My grandpa was pastoring the ELS for a while.
But was more the Norwegian Synod.

(43:45):
And the Norwegian Synod was always more...
They had a closer tie with the Missouri Synod than they did with the Wisconsin Synod.
Now they have a much closer tie with the Wisconsin Synod, obviously.
But in those days, it was...
And even to this day, and I've explained this to uh friends of mine from the WisconsinSynod, that I have ELS friends who will...

(44:11):
They don't think twice about going to a Missouri Synod Church if it's Orthodox, becausethat's how they were trained to think.
And uh most of the Missouri Synod is just going to find a Missouri Synod Church, whetherit's Orthodox or not.
Yeah, they don't care.
And the Wells is very similar in that they just kind of take for granted that it's goingto be good because it's Wells, and so they just go to a Wells Church.

(44:36):
And whereas in the ELS, like if you have a...
If you have someone in the ELS who moves to a town, he goes to a Wisconsin Synod Church.
He's going to go there first because they're in fellowship.
But if they have contemporary worship, he's going to go check out the Missouri SynodChurch and see what they're like.

(44:56):
And if they actually have the liturgy and good preaching, he's going to be like, well, I'mgoing to go here then.
So I think that that still exists uh in many ways.
in the ELS.
But at any rate, so you get married, you move down to New Haven, and then is that when youhelped start this newsletter, which was called Lutheran News?

(45:29):
where did this idea come from?
this already kind of brewing in his mind before you I think so.
I think so.
And would he talk to you about it when you were dating or when you were engaged?
After we were married.
After you were married.
So tell me about the plans and how all that started with getting out the Lutheran News,which later became Christian News.

(45:53):
Well, first of all, he decided to put out this paper and it was going to be calledLutheran News.
It was right around Christmas time when he came out with the first edition.
So this is about what, 1962?
Yeah, 62 and then 63.

(46:15):
Okay.
And so then he did that.
He put out the paper.
He made up a paper, found a printer to do it.
And that was the Missourian.
And they printed it.
Cause first of all, he was tried.
what thought he'd get it done in New Haven, but that wasn't gonna work.

(46:37):
And I can't remember exactly why it wasn't gonna work, but it wasn't gonna work.
And so he got other bids and here the Missouri bid was really low and practical.
So he went there and of course then we had to fork up the money.
And we didn't have a lot of money to fork up, but we did.

(47:00):
uh
That's what started it then.
And then he decided, then it was every two weeks, every other week it came out at first.
And it was a lot shorter at first, right?
It was just like a, wasn't it just a front and back kind of thing?
Or was it longer than that?
No, it was more pages than that.

(47:21):
Okay.
But it wasn't very long.
It wasn't as long as it is today.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
So we...
So then he went to the Missouri and all the time to get it printed up and became quiteclose with the family.
And they were a delightful family.

(47:44):
I see they're involved now with, what is this called?
Who is that new printer now?
Hoffman, yeah.
And so I'm going to see how long.
the good Missourian lasts.
Yeah.

(48:04):
Yeah.
But it seems like a lot of good things come to an end.
So now, so now so here you guys are.
This is your wedding.
So that's 1962.
Right.
And then there.
That's my father.
That's your father.
Right.
And what's he doing?
What's the he worked?
He worked at a print at a.

(48:26):
as he was a printer by trade.
He was, okay, so that's interesting.
And he stood for years, laying out the pages of different magazines and books.
Can you give her some water?

(48:50):
Your granddaughter is going to take care of you.
Give you some water.
All this talking, it kind of Yeah, think it's catching up on me.
So, that's it.
So, okay.
your father was a printer.
so, did he...
Did your husband correspond with him much on this?
Learned some things from him on...

(49:11):
Not Herman.
No.
He just was gonna...
learned...
Yeah.
He was just gonna do it.
Yeah.
He was just gonna do it.
And of course my dad did make a few comments about the way the pages were laid out.
Yeah, sure.
Because he was, that was his thing.
Because he, that was his magazines, newspapers.

(49:31):
That's what he had to do all And did Herman ever, did he, do you think that he everquietly took his father-in-law's advice?
On the formatting?
No, quietly, yes.
Yeah, quietly maybe, yeah.
But...
uh
It was, it was interesting.
And of course dad had comments on the paper.

(49:56):
On the content of the paper or just on the format?
No, more the format.
the format.
My mother had comments on Your mother had comments on the content.
Okay.
Okay.
And were they positive comments?
uh positive comments?
Some were.
And I think she just didn't say some of that she didn't like.
Okay.

(50:17):
So what were some of the early topics that were being addressed in Lutheran news?
Oh gosh, that's a long time ago.
Yeah, don't mean to put you on the spot.
What were some of the early topics?
Well, the things that were going on in Synod was the early topics.

(50:41):
There's Hannah behind the camera.
Thank you.
Oh, I can feel a correction.
Yes.
Yes.
Very good.

(51:03):
So the things that were going on, uh like addressing higher criticism.
Yes.
Okay.
And did he focus specifically on the Missouri Synod or just the Lutherans at first?
Because I know that eventually became Christian news and then it was more, he'd stillfocus on the stuff going on in Lutheranism, but he'd venture out into more of Christendom.

(51:26):
And he did that because it was affecting everybody.
Yeah.
But early on it was more, he was focused on his experiences in the Missouri SynodSeminary.
Yeah.
And uh he tried to follow what was going on in all of the Lutheran Church bodies.

(51:46):
And he did pretty good because first of all, he had to get all kinds of magazines.
He subscribed to all their magazines.
uh so what was in print?
is what he would speak on.
And anything that was not right, of course he would correct or point out.

(52:12):
So he obviously, he would start off just writing everything himself.
yeah.
But eventually he was able to get writers.
Right.
And how, do you remember how that started?
some of them just volunteered.
Yeah.
It pretty early just all of sudden showed up.
Yeah.
and would you like to print this or would you, know?

(52:33):
uh and some of them he did, some of he didn't.
But that's just the way he would go through it.
And who received the first copy?
So the first copy, to whom were they sent out?
Was it all the congregations of the Senate or?
No, no, it wasn't then yet.

(52:53):
He sent out the first one to his list of...
um
from the meetings that he had had.
And so he had a list from those and he sent out to those people.
those were predominantly conservative people that were at these meetings.

(53:13):
And that's the list that we had to use.
So he built a base of people who were going to be sympathetic to his cause.
uh
So then you ended up just getting subscriptions, like people started orderingsubscriptions.

(53:39):
So the first two years was it, it was called Lutheran News and then eventually he prettyquickly called it Christian News.
Because he had already started covering all the other churches too.
So he figured it would be better to be called Christian News so they'd know that it wasn'tjust the Lutherans.

(54:00):
that we're having problems.
Yeah.
No, and that's really wise too, because people can easily, they can write it off as just aparochial issue.
Yeah.
And this is just, uh there's just these guys who are uh kind of stuffy conservative andthese guys who are kind of moderate or regular or whatever.

(54:22):
But what he's able to show here is that, wait, no, we're not the only ones who have thisdisease.
And so this is
he's able to show really how the devil works, the evidence that the devil has sowed thetares among the wheats and throughout the field.
So then, so during, so he was already a controversial figure when you met him.

(54:50):
But now you get married, so you're married in what, that's 1962, so it's the spring.
Yes.
No, August.
What's your anniversary?
What's my anniversary?
I don't know.
I'd have to subtract.
Labor Day weekend.
Okay.
So you got married in August, at the end of August, 1962.

(55:13):
And then by Christmas of 62, you guys are starting Lutheran News.
Yeah.
He is starting Lutheran But you helped, right?
Well, as far as the paper itself, I didn't really help.
I may make a comment or something like that about what he was putting in there, but Ididn't write anything.

(55:35):
Yeah, sure, sure.
But then didn't you help kind of organize some of the logistics as far as...
It was my responsibility to get it out.
And so I had to get that list set up and go on from there.
And when he called in...

(55:57):
subscriptions and then they started coming in and I had to do something with that becausehere was all this money coming in and I had to put it someplace.
You know, so.
Now at that time, uh
TeKretzman, wasn't he a member of Trinity when you first joined?

(56:20):
when you first got married, you remember him?
He's the popular commentary guy.
I heard that he was a member of Trinity at the time when they were not in the MissouriSynod.
And then when they came back into the Missouri Synod, he left because he didn't want to bein the Missouri Synod.
So how did the church react when your husband started printing these papers?

(56:48):
How did they see it?
Well, some of them, of course, were supporting him and backing him too.
And some of them just didn't say anything.
Okay.
But otherwise there was, we didn't lose.
That was the only one we lost.

(57:09):
And that was because we went back into the Missouri Senate.
Okay.
Interesting.
That was the only one we lost.
Yeah.
Cause I would imagine that the members of Trinity
saw, here's this young pastor, they called him to be their pastor, and now as a we as acongregation have been kicked out of the Missouri Synod because we have this pastor who's

(57:32):
not uh certified in the Missouri Synod.
And then now they see this young pastor going to work to expose all of this stuff, all ofthis false teaching that's going on.
And I would imagine that many of the members of Trinity saw Him as going to bat for them,you know, that He's not going to take this line down.

(57:56):
He's going to...
because He would have seen Himself as...
He's not there just to vindicate Himself.
He's there to defend the Church.
Yeah.
And so, I'm sure that...
is that how people saw Him then?
That this is...
here's a pastor who actually cares about us.
there were a number of leading members that were all with him and had gone to some of themeetings that he had and had gone into St.

(58:27):
Louis, even when he met with different boards.
And they saw how he was treated and saw that they are good men and they are bad men.
I mean, that was their conclusions.
And so they experienced what was going on as far as attitudes in the church.

(58:54):
So they were supportive of Him.
And that's just the way it was.
And they stayed with Him, you know, through the years.
uh we had our ups and downs times when you felt

(59:15):
bad for the way things were going.
And it just was the way it was.
Now, you came to Trinity, were you doing, did you find yourself doing similar kind ofdeaconess work sort of unofficially?
My husband wanted a wife to stay at home.

(59:38):
Yeah.
And so I didn't really do anything.
outside of the church and other than, but he did allow me to join the ladies aid.
wow.
was okay.
But I wasn't supposed to hold any office, you know, so I didn't for a number of years.
In fact, for quite a few years that I ever held an office in the ladies aid even.

(01:00:03):
But then I had been around enough things as far as churches and meetings and all that kindof stuff.
I didn't feel too bad about that at all.
Yeah, yeah, I It was easy to stay home.
Yeah, that was an easy fast for you.
yeah.
So and then you...

(01:00:24):
But then I had to make a lot of dinners, inviting members and non-members and all sorts ofstuff.
Sure.
Yeah.
And yeah, that's a lot of work.
And then you're then then God started blessing you guys with children.
Yeah.
Oh, and I was upset because he was...
Took such a long time.
took so long.
So is Miriam the oldest?

(01:00:45):
Yeah.
So when was she born?
She was born three years after we were married.
Okay, okay.
I can't remember what's her, her birth season.
I forget now.
65.
What?
She'll be 60 this year.
Okay.
Yeah, that's right.
So 1965.
then, so God.
God made you wait a little while and then he just gave you a bunch of kids.

(01:01:08):
Yeah, but it was three years between the first two.
Okay.
And then I was really getting nervous and I thought, my gosh, I'm getting older.
How am going to get my 12 kids?
How am I going to get my 12 kids?
Yeah.
But then they came.
But you got seven.
gave you just seven, okay.
Yeah, just seven.

(01:01:29):
Yeah.
And I was upset.
because I didn't have any more pregnancies.
I was, oh my word, what's he doing to me?
But uh then I settled down.
Yeah, yeah.
And took care of my seven.
Yeah, yeah.
And as it went along, I decided, I guess he knew what he was doing.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Yeah, we have seven, and as you know.

(01:01:50):
Yeah.
And I always said, I'm number eight in my family, so I always said that I want at leasteight.
But you know, that's all up to God.
So it's not up to me.
um So uh not the end result that is.
um So we receive all good things from God's gracious hand and.

(01:02:17):
And so, anyway, so pretty quickly then, I mean, by the 1970s, my mom said that the 80swere a blur for her.
So were the 70s kind of a blur for you?
Yeah.
Cause Luke's the youngest, he would have been born in what, 76?
Yeah, 76.
Okay.

(01:02:37):
And that's, so that's when my parents were first starting to have their children.
So my oldest brother is born in 76.
So then my youngest brother is born in 95.
So our family is sort of like the, you were you left off, we then started.
It's just, yeah, that in between generation.
Yeah.
And so then, so tell me about like growing up then, like as you get into the seventies,you're raising kids and that's when

(01:03:05):
the manure really starts getting entangled in the air conditioning unit.
And so what was that like?
know Miriam told me a story that she remembers when she was a little girl.
Let's see, how old would she have been?
was born in, she was born in 65.
So she would have been about nine years old.

(01:03:26):
And she's sitting there in the front porch of the parsonage on Maupin Street there in NewHaven.
And then Uncle Carl comes,
driving up to the house really fast and stops and he gets out and he tells you and yourhusband about what happened at St.

(01:03:46):
Louis, that the walkout was going on.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
She remembers that.
Yeah, she remembers that.
Oh So she would have been about nine years old.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
That's true.
He's old enough to do that.
Yeah, yeah.
So what, so at, so.
From your perspective, mean, at that time, he's very much, your husband is very much inthe thick of all the controversy going on.

(01:04:14):
And so are you just at home baking bread and cookies and stuff?
What's going on with you?
Changing diapers and doing the really important stuff, right?
Right, right.
uh
there's the paper to get out too.

(01:04:35):
And uh I had to worry about the people working for us and do we need more help or do weneed less help or do we, you know, how do we pay the bills and all that kind of stuff.
Those were, that's what I was involved in besides.
We always had a garden.

(01:04:56):
Yeah, sure.
And that's work.
Yeah, that is work.
But fortunately, Herman loved gardening.
So he helped me with that.
But then he just wants to make it bigger and bigger.
But we, so I was involved in all the put up, know, the canning and all that kind of stuff.

(01:05:16):
And we never were without food because of that.
Because when people would be really worried about what they were going to do, I keptthinking, well, go out and put a garden in you.
You'll have food then.
And so then, you were very much involved with, like you said, the logistics of thescheduling, a lot of the organizational work that without which there would be no

(01:05:48):
Christian news or it would have died very quickly.
Now, eventually then you started working then for, well, I you were working for ChristianNews, but you were working at the Missourian, correct?
Wouldn't you go over to the Missourian and work there on the paper?

(01:06:09):
Because you have some kind of, you got some kind of plaque from the Missourian.
Yeah, that's you.
So you did you did you have some kind of position with the Missourian?
Actually, no.
I I just wasn't.
No, it wasn't an official.

(01:06:29):
It anything official.
OK, I see.
And you got to know them because that's because you continue to use them even to this day.
Right.
The Christian News uses them for for their printing.
They are printing still.
We're a little concerned.
Yeah, because the Missourian has been bought by a big mega business, Hoffman's and andthey have a what they call the media group, you know, and they stuck the Missourian in

(01:06:59):
there and we'll just see how that goes.
Is that what I'm referring to?
Oh, so that's not what is that?
That's this is something 54 years.
okay.
When I retired from full-time work.
Okay.
This wasn't the Missouri.
I thought that the Missourian gave you some kind of certificate anyway.

(01:07:22):
Well, I don't always remember things like I should.
um yeah.
So, so then, uh, so then you're, you're raising a family and, and your kids, uh, your kidsare all getting older and most, no, all of your kids.
And this is something that I'm always so thankful to see.

(01:07:45):
You know, when I meet a family where the kids are all faithful, they're all going tochurch, and they're going to good churches, like conservative Lutheran churches that teach
the Word of God and its truth and purity, and they care about doctrine.
m
But what I also noticed with your family is that while you're also theologically sound andinterested in theology, you're also very down to earth and care about things like gardens

(01:08:12):
and other kinds of like things that get your hands dirty and stuff like that.
what was the uh devotional life and the kind of...
So let's say you have two kinds of life, right?
ah In the Middle Ages, they would talk about this.
They talk about the contemplative life, which is...
That's where you think about things and you talk about things and you know, that's wherewe would probably call it the devotional life, right?

(01:08:36):
Or the theological life, right?
Or the current events life.
And then you got the active life and that's where you're working with your hands andyou're doing stuff.
And it seems like your family, they have both of those.
you know, I've gotten to know your children and your grandchildren and they seem to havebeen raised with both of those things very much important that you have.

(01:08:57):
You have the word of God, you have the truth.
We should care about issues, but we also have work.
We got work to do.
And that's one that is very, very uh noticeable, Hannah's over there nodding her head.
So what was the daily kind of order like in your home growing, like raising your kids?

(01:09:27):
Well, first of all, you all have to be down there for breakfast at time.
What time?
On time.
um What time was it?
Like 3 a.m.?
No, not that early.
No, no, no, no.
uh Like six or something.
Yeah.
And it depended on like school and who was who was taking the kids to school.

(01:09:51):
And so then it usually was between seven and eight.
OK, we had breakfast.
Yeah.
OK.
Which is
Goodly tower in the morning.
And then the rest of the day was spent in the activities that had to be done.
And I had an office in my house also, besides the office over at the church basement.

(01:10:15):
Okay.
This is before we had any other buildings.
Yeah.
Because you guys moved out here in what, 1973, 74, something like that?
Yeah.
ah Sometime in the 70s, you guys lived out here.
Built that log cabin.

(01:10:35):
Yeah.
So.
And poor Donna Price looked at it she said, Grace, that's too small.
My grandma said that.
Yeah.
She's just very disappointed in me because we built such a small house.
I thought it was nice.
It was compact and everything was in town.

(01:10:59):
Now, I did have a bigger house in town.
Yeah.
And next to the church, so was a nice, big, old Victorian house.
I can imagine my grandma saying that because she was very blunt.
I remember my aunt.
I grew a beard one time and one of my aunts came up to me and said, Andrew, you're just sogood looking and you're covering your face when you have that beard.

(01:11:29):
And so that was one of my aunts.
And then another aunt who I think is, you know.
uh
She probably is more like my grandma in this way, where she just went up to me and said,Andrew, your beard looks ugly.
It's just very straightforward to me.
I just, I just had to laugh because that, that is how my, my grandma would be just veryblunt, very straightforward.

(01:11:52):
So I could, I could picture her saying that to you, that this is, this is too small.
What are you doing?
know.
I just, I was just so disappointed when she said that because I was so proud of it.
This long house, was long.
and they were sticking out on the end, know, and all this kind of stuff.
And she says, it's too small.
And she just was devastated.

(01:12:14):
mean, when she told me it was just bad news.
So, okay.
So you guys, so uh you had all, know, kids had chores and chores and stuff like that.
Pretty, standard stuff.
um But then what was the devotional life like?
Oh, raising your kids.
We had devotions.

(01:12:38):
We had devotions every day in the evening.
then at the dinner table.
So I know like when I was a kid, a lot of like people would ask me like, what was yourdata?
People would ask me a similar question.
Like, what was your devotional life like growing up?
Like, well, we had devotions.
But what I remember, what stuck out to me the most was sitting around the dinner table andhearing my parents just talk.

(01:13:04):
and they talk about what was going on.
They talk about the issues and they would talk about it from a theological biblicalstandpoint.
And I assume that's what you and your husband would do.
we did.
Especially, and he was really upset when somebody couldn't be at the table with us.
They should all be there so they could listen to all this conversation.
Yeah.

(01:13:25):
And that's just the way it was.
Yeah.
And my aunt...
My aunt Solve told me that she remembers, she's one of the younger ones in my dad'sfamily.
uh And she's kind of in the middle, but she remembers going to your house.
oh And I don't know if this must have been, I don't know if it was when you guys moved up.

(01:13:52):
here to the log cabin or when you were still down a mopping, but she remembers uh beingthere and having dinner.
And then right when dinner ended, it was like an assembly line of just everyone just gotup and knew exactly what his or her duty was.
And it was just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
And the table was cleared off.

(01:14:12):
Every dishes were done, everything put away.
And she said she had never seen anything so efficient in her life.
that to get it done.
Yeah sure.
And I didn't want to be standing around all afternoon and evening.
Yeah.
And especially on Sunday dinner because that was always a big meal.

(01:14:35):
Yeah.
And so you had to move to get it done.
Now what advice would you give to you know even someone like Hannah right who somedayHannah will God willing be married, God willing
she receives children and she wants them to be faithful.

(01:14:56):
She wants them to grow up and confess the same pure doctrine of the gospel uh and knowtheir Savior who forgives them freely of their sins and she wants to see them in heaven.
You know, that's what we all desire for our kids.
uh
And that's what God has blessed you with is these children who rise up and call youblessed.

(01:15:18):
they call They even gave me a plaque with that on.
they did.
Good.
From Psalm 31.
Yeah.
so for a young lady who is a pious Christian lady who wants to raise her children to befaithful confessors of the gospel.

(01:15:39):
What bits of advice would you give to someone First of all, find a Christian husband.
Find a Christian husband.
Yeah.
And it doesn't necessarily have to be Lutheran when you first meet him, but make sure he'sLutheran before you get married.
Okay?
Yeah.

(01:16:00):
Then...
And he actually wants to be Lutheran.
Yeah.
That he actually knows what he's confessing and he's zealous for that.
So he knows where he's from and what he's doing.
That's right.
That's good advice.
then you see...
Yeah.
And then just set up your life in a sensible way.

(01:16:23):
me, it was easy because...
I had three meals when I was growing up, and so we had three meals in our house.
And it was every day the same time, know, breakfast at certain time and lunch and supper.
And it was hard when they started having to be in sports and to do stuff, but that didn'tset well with Herman.

(01:16:54):
They had to be there for supper.
uh
Sometimes they scooted off very um upset, they, it was just the way it was.
you prioritize, like you see, you have a simple routine, but you, but you enforce it andyou keep it.
Yeah.
yeah.
Yeah.
And you prioritize that, that dinner time where you are together.

(01:17:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That, I mean, that sounds very simple.
I know it is very simple, but you just got to do it.
just got to do it.
Yeah.
And it's, it's, seems.
very difficult these days because you mentioned sports.
And that's another thing I have noticed about your family, um that everyone's so activeand so, you know, well, athletic in the sense of, I don't know if everyone's all that

(01:17:43):
athletic, athletic, not necessarily like stars at, you know, at this or that sport, butyou know, people...
they get their exercise and they're they are involved.
mean, your kids were all involved in like what things like cross country and basketballand baseball and stuff like that.
And so obviously you guys would encourage that.

(01:18:08):
Oh, yeah.
But you also recognize that there was there were boundaries to that as well.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They had to.
And another thing, we always had devotions at supper.
And that was a big deal.
You know, as far as Herman was concerned, that was just part of having supper and beingtogether and then you were excused to go and do whatever.

(01:18:34):
Yeah, yeah.
It gives that kind of routine, that order.
Yeah, so if you, you know, just someone like me then, I mean, maybe I'll just, because I'min this position now where...
I have seven kids and my oldest kids are involved in sports and they really like theirsports.
And I tell you what, it gets busy.

(01:18:57):
I mean, we were homeschooling our kids and we were not nearly as busy because we went atour own pace.
We were busy, but in a way that was manageable.
But then when you add school, ah so then we have our two oldest go to day school, whilethe rest are homeschooled.
But then they not only have that, they have their sports and it just gets so busy.

(01:19:22):
And it seems kind of overwhelming at times.
Yeah, it does.
So what's some advice you could give to me on how to kind of You just have to set thestandard.
Set the standard.
Set the standard there if you want them to be there at suppertime.

(01:19:43):
And that's when you are scheduled.
So you have devotion sometime at a regular time, but to do it all the time at a regulartime.
Now I had always read Bible stories to the kids when they went to bed until they wereolder and they're, well, they just were past the Bible story.

(01:20:07):
we, I'd been through all the books.
What am I going to do now?
And I didn't think I should read,
I didn't feel like I should be reading them some other deep book, you know, that thatwould all come as they go along.
Yeah.
um so I just made sure that they all knew their...

(01:20:31):
And they knew their Bible stories.
It's amazing when you get kids in Sunday school and they don't know one Bible story hardlyat all, you know, it's sad.
Yeah.
And uh but we just had that.
and that you just have to do that.
Yeah.
No, I've noticed as a pastor in the last, I mean, I've been a pastor for just over adecade now, and the things that you could take for granted in our society um of biblical

(01:21:03):
knowledge, you cannot take for granted anymore.
Adult instruction often is going to include a lot of Bible story review.
And you can't just jump into, all right, now let's get into the dogmatic side of it or thedoctrinal side of it.
I mean, you have to do that.

(01:21:24):
That's got to be, that's key.
But if they don't know, if they can't tell you the basic story of Adam and Eve, the basicstory of even things like David and Goliath, the flood, and I'm not going in order here,
but you have these basic stories that you just know, that everyone knows.

(01:21:45):
But that's not true anymore.
And it's interesting when you consider like the battle that you guys were fighting backthen, that battle for the Bible, for the inerrancy of scripture, the fruit of that, the
fruit of that error that we see today, it's not so much that people deny the Bible.

(01:22:06):
I mean, that's a problem.
But the people don't even know the Bible.
No, they haven't read it.
Yeah.
It's not accessible to them.
And so...
So when you guys would do devotions, one thing that we try to do, we don't always do thesame thing every time, but we try to do the same thing.
We have devotions during dinner.

(01:22:28):
And sometimes it might be a more truncated one where we just sing a hymn and we sayprayer.
But most of the time we try to have reading from scripture and then we've been goingthrough Locky's prayer book.
But, we've used Luther and Walther in the past as well.

(01:22:49):
Just find a good uh devotional book to read.
um But sometimes what we'll do is we'll, I'll take a book of the Bible and just read achapter of it.
And uh then we kind of eventually make our way through that throughout the days.
that kind of, you know, reading out loud of the Bible,

(01:23:14):
helps familiarize the kids with the Bible itself.
Because there's the Bible stories, which are very important, know, like arch books or, orwhatever it was that the arch books, think, are, they often leave a lot to be desired.
but the, that's better than nothing.
agree.
And that's my mom, my mom gave us arch books, Bible story, uh or Bible history books, youknow, those are, those are really helpful with good pictures that really tell the story.

(01:23:43):
Well,
Egemeyer's books are good.
Okay, I bet you got them in the library.
I'll check that out.
But then there's just reading the Bible itself.
Yeah.
Right.
And that the kids would get familiar with and not be intimidated by the Bible itself.

(01:24:04):
like when I remember when I was a kid,
being very familiar and comfortable with the Bible story.
Because, you know, my mom read Arch books, but we also had like a Bible storybook.
We had a couple different Bible storybooks and I'd look at those and it was very familiarto me.
And then it was, you when I would see the Bible, it was like, oh, that's the real thing.

(01:24:26):
And that's, and I wonder if sometimes people, kids might get too intimidated to just openthat up and
They don't necessarily know where to start.
I suppose to start with Genesis and then you keep going and then you kind of, kind of giveup.
So, I mean, are those things that, do you find that just reading out of the Bible withyour kids, you know, when they get older, as they get older, sort of helped them, helped

(01:24:55):
them be more familiar with and more comfortable with just reading the Bible?
I don't know, I'd have to ask them.
Well, one of the things too that you guys did was ah you started, uh you kind of took upthe mantle of printing the Beck Bible.

(01:25:15):
yeah.
And that that one...
Oh, that's a God's end.
Yeah.
It's just fantastic if people would just sit down and read the Bible.
Yeah.
Because it's so much clearer and yet it...
You know, and sometimes we look up a passage in both, you know.

(01:25:37):
Like the King James and the, yeah.
And the King James is the only thing outside of the Beck Bible that I would ever readbecause some of the others are just...
Well, and you grew up with the King James.
Yeah, right.
So that was quite the, yeah, that must have been...
Like my dad tells me this story that when he was starting seminary, uh he didn't dopre-seminary.

(01:26:00):
uh program, he went to Concordia's, but he didn't do the pre-seminary route.
And so when he got to seminary, he had to do, I had to do the same thing where he had totake these survey classes in Old and New Testament and he needed to read the whole Bible
through a summer.
And he thought, how am going to do that?

(01:26:21):
And because the only thing he knew was King James.
He's like, I mean, how am going to get through the whole Bible in the summer?
Well, then it was just that time when the Beck Old and New Testament came out.
And so, he got himself a copy of that and he was able to read it all the way through inthe summer.
so, that's, and that was, whenever we got confirmed, we would get a copy of the BeckBible.

(01:26:45):
And that was, so that was the first, the first copy of the New Testament, I would say,that I didn't quite make it through all the Old Testament at that, in high school, but it
wasn't until a little later.
Um, but, uh, the first cop, the first, the first time I read through the new Testament wasfrom the Beck, the Beck translation.
And you're right.
I mean, it's very accessible.
It's kind of folksy, you know, it's like America.

(01:27:06):
It's like American kind of folk language, was his goal.
Yeah.
You know that, cause he wanted to reach the American people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's the way he went about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the way that Americans talk, which
I suppose nowadays maybe he'd have to add a little things like GTG.

(01:27:28):
So when Jesus says, us go from here.
But I don't people do that.
Yeah, I would hope not.
I mean, Americans, I mean, that's another topic that people have kind of forgotten how totalk in certain circles.
But that, mean, that's where the Bible has always played a really big role in keeping ourlanguage together and allowing people to.

(01:27:52):
to have conversations.
So, well, um I think we've covered most things.
So, now I'll give one more, I'll ask you one more thing.
uh So you grew up as a pastor's wife.

(01:28:12):
And I know that pastor's wives often can maybe feel some pressure of being a pastor's wifeor, you know, it's some...
some maybe are a little overwhelmed with little things here and there, and especially iftheir husband might be in certain intense circumstances, he might be in some intense

(01:28:33):
waters.
So what's some advice that you might give to pastors' wives as they want to support theirhusband and they don't want to get overwhelmed by the...
you know, maybe some of the awkwardness that might come along.

(01:28:56):
So, do you just have a few words for pastors wives?
How can you be a faithful pastor's wife?
First of all, make sure that you're reading your Bible.
That will give you about the most strength you can ever get.
And that would be the most important.
And that's a personal thing.
Don't depend on just the family gathering for the few verses you read.

(01:29:22):
sit aside a time when you read the Bible through and it's, it's, there's just no otherthing.
And of course, then I definitely recommend the Beck Bible because it's so easy to read.
that's probably the most basic thing.
The other thing is just set your plans, make sure that you have it lined up in the family.

(01:29:51):
for meal time and insist on them being there at meal time.
When it's easy, you know, it's easy to have lunch when they're all home, but thenafterwards when they're going to school, do they bag a lunch?
Do they buy the school lunch?
Do you know, whatever, but that they get three meals a day is very critical.

(01:30:17):
And the evening meal.
I think it's important as a time to have a devotion.
And it doesn't have to be a long devotion at all.
It can just be a good solid little devotion that you can have with them.
And then of course, you know, have the evening prayer and that's it.

(01:30:41):
Yeah.
I'd also, we'd also pray with them when they went to bed until they got a little older.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's great advice.
And, well, I, it's, it's really, uh, it's always fun talking to you, Grace.
And, thanks for coming on this, this program and, we'll have to do it again, maybesometime, maybe not recorded, but I'll, I'm sure we'll see more of each other.

(01:31:10):
And as my pastor, I'll probably see around.
sure.
So actually we're, uh, we're, we're having this camp in about a month, the Camp TrinityAcademy.
And, uh, and one of our traditions that's become a tradition is go over to Mrs.
Otten's house and sing hymns.

(01:31:30):
Yeah, that's fine.
I love that.
You can sing as many as you want.
And I suppose that's the other element that, that we didn't mention is you'd probably addsing hymns with your kids.
Yeah, we did.
Yeah.
We did.
sang hymns and we just, uh, we didn't always sing.
all 15 verses, but we'd sing at least a portion of them.

(01:31:56):
But I appreciate singing 15 hymns in church.
15 verses.
15 verses, I mean, in church.
good.
I'm glad someone appreciates it.
So, all right.
Well, thanks again for being on and you guys are listening to Christendom in the World.

(01:32:17):
Please join us for our next episode and like and subscribe and share if you will.