June 11, 2025 • 64 mins
In this episode of Christendom and the Word, Pastor James Preus joins us for a wide-ranging conversation on Christian political engagement. We explore how a biblical understanding of natural law, civil duty, and conscience informs everything from our view of rights to our role in society. Is libertarianism compatible with a Christian worldview? What does Romans 13 really mean for believers today? Pastor Preus challenges us to think clearly, live faithfully, and obey for conscience’ sake—not just for political gain.
Whether you're wrestling with political philosophy, the limits of government authority, or simply trying to make sense of your Christian duty in a chaotic world, this conversation offers clarity rooted in Scripture and tradition.
*Audio Note:
We’re aware of the audio issues in this week’s recording. We ran into some technical difficulties, but we’re working on it and will be back and sounding better next week.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
you
Okay, this is, we didn't really know what we were going to talk about exactly.
We just, we just start talking.
uh When it comes to, okay, so we're talking about rights.
We're talking about uh duties and, you know, how we both were kind of libertarian, but wedidn't really realize that we, well, I think we did realize that we were just, we were
(00:29):
just trying to uh make a civil case.
uh for our Christian worldview or Christian convictions.
um But I think it's important to learn politics, for Christians to learn politics, not sothat we can win the day necessarily, but for the sake of your conscience.
(00:59):
Like when Paul says in Romans 13, uh
You he says, he says you obey for conscience sake.
Right.
this would, we could elaborate on this that like you should know what natural law is.
You should know, you should be able to articulate or at least to some degree, thedifference between natural divine law and a positive civil law that would sort of be
(01:27):
extracted from that.
So you mentioned like the right to bear arms.
Okay.
Is the right to bear arms as such is not a natural right because arms are not like,
They don't grow on trees.
They're Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Unless you're talking about your arms, then okay, I guess.
(01:49):
uh But it's something that's derived from that.
It's a positive law uh policy that assumes a bedrock of a duty to protect your family andto protect your community and to protect your country.
uh
And so, but these are important things for us to talk about, ah like I said, for the sakeof the conscience, so that we can live a quiet and peaceful life and actually, and not
(02:22):
be...
and not fall into the winds of doctrine that would lead us away from Christ.
And one of the things that finally kind of struck me, and was actually, I'm reallythankful that we went to this, as dad called it, a pagan school, which he was totally
right.
I'm glad that we had a good church to go to.
(02:44):
We had some good Christian friends.
Things weren't perfect, but God saw us through.
What I'm glad for is that I realized that socialism is not just about economic policy.
It's not just about whether the government has control of this or that kind of thing.
(03:06):
But what I realized is that no, no, no, socialism is at its heart an atheistic ideologythat overlooks
uh the the the estates that God himself has established the duties that God himself hasestablished and in order to promote a kind of idealistic society and this is something
(03:30):
that have you ever had brothers Karamazov
No, it's not my reading.
unreasonably so near the beginning where he's going through the different he's introducingthe different characters.
He's introducing Ivan who's the he's the older brother who is an academic and he's anatheist and but anyway it says that he he holds to socialism and and he promotes socialism
(03:55):
and this is like 1870s I think maybe 1880s.
And Dostoevsky explains, by socialism, I don't mean, I'm kind of paraphrasing him, but hesays, I'm not talking about an economic ideology or an economic policy.
What I'm talking about is an atheistic agenda.
(04:17):
And that's the thing that like, when people say then that, well, they have this caricatureof socialism, and then you have other people who will say, no, they promote capitalism.
It's like, well, it's not about...
It's it's it's it's it's naive.
It's it's I don't know.
It's like playing checkers.
No, that's what the that's what the arrogant
(04:38):
Uh, playing checkers when someone else is playing chess.
The people who say that are normally morons.
But it gets down to like, if you read the Communist Manifesto, he talks about like, you'lluse revolution to tear down any building blocks that there are any institution that there
is so they can establish a new one.
(04:58):
And what we've seen is that so we don't we don't really talk so much about Marxists.
You have some people who do.
Maybe they'll say cultural Marxists.
They talk about globalists.
And what is a globalist?
Well, the globalists are Marxists.
But
They'll use free markets.
They'll use free trade.
They'll use.
I'm not like, you know, being like a pro-Trump terrorist.
That's not my point.
(05:19):
My point is that they'll like the communists will use free markets.
absolutely.
They'll use capital.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Part of like the thesis and tithesis synthesis of communism.
Oh, yeah, their goal is to destroy the family.
Yeah.
And if you read in the large catechisms you mentioned earlier, which is really just opensup everything, just read the you should just read through the large catechism once a year.
(05:39):
Like every at least everyone should just do it.
Every Lutheran should just do that, especially every pastor.
But in the Sixth Commandment, he talks about how, this is the marriage estate is moreimportant than than emperors than bishops and any of these other states, because this is
the foundation of all of it.
And I've written, you know, a couple of articles
(06:00):
where I talk about uh
that the church, the family is the proto-state and the proto-church because the state hasauthority over your body.
The church has authority over your soul, but it is the household, the house father who hasauthority over both the body and the soul.
He has a responsibility to feed and clothe his children and also to raise, to give theminstruction in the Lord.
(06:27):
So the power is at be, and this is satanic power.
that is beyond like, know, what's that what's that one German guy who at the WorldEconomic Forum that Klaus, uh whatever his name is, like, I'm not those aren't the guys,
they're not in charge.
People keep on saying, well, no, it's not the Clintons who are in charge.
It's Klaus who's in charge.
(06:48):
It's not Klaus in charge.
No, it's a secret society.
like, yeah, it's Satan.
Satan is the ruler.
world is with Jesus.
says, and what does he want to do?
He wants to destroy the family, which is why like you talk about like why you should careabout politics, we should care about politics because it is established by God.
Yeah, the three states God has established government, he's established the church, andhe's established the family.
(07:09):
And politics is an extension of the family.
So if you don't care at all about what your government is doing, then you don't care whatyour government is doing that affects your church, and what the government is doing that
affects the
state.
So you can you can be a realist, you can be non-political in the sense that, yeah, I'mnot, that's not my forte, but to be completely disinterested to the point where Christians
(07:36):
are being persecuted by your government, and you're obtuse to it.
Babies are being murdered, or the household is being reestablished or Christian orphanagesare being closed, and you're just like, well, I'm just not interested in that stuff.
Well, you should actually wake up and realize that you have a responsibility towards yourneighbor.
And part of that is, is what your government is doing.
(07:59):
Yeah, and to understand that there is, it's not that hard to recognize problems insociety.
The thing with communism and any other kind of manifestation of communism, which any kindof leftist manifestation of it, like feminism is another one, liberation kind of
(08:23):
movements, liberation theology, whatever.
uh
They all recognize problems.
Communism was a reaction against the industrial movement.
that saw a lot of families kind of broken apart and people having to work like 70, 80hours a week and all that kind of stuff.
(08:51):
so like the labor movement, Russell Kirk talks about this in his conservative mind, thatthe labor movement attracted a lot of conservatives because it appealed to the family, to
a conservative mentality.
And the problem though with these movements
with all these political movements, which you find a manifested on the right as well, isthat they seek political solutions to really what come down to spiritual problems.
(09:25):
And they're driven by an enthusiasm, like instead of relying upon, you know, the word ofGod, also the providence of God, that God's going to work things out and you need to just
do your duty and, you know, drink water out of your own cistern, right?
uh Or as TLC said, don't go chasing waterfalls, right?
(09:46):
ah I think that's Hannah's favorite song, right?
Yeah.
oh
know, that you do your duty and you allow God to work things out.
But instead, what these political movements are pushing is, well, we got to
(10:07):
like change the power around and that's going to be the solution to our problems.
So I think, know, like we've talked on here a bit.
We actually read your response to Korczak's article on Christian nationalism.
We've talked a little bit about that.
I mean, he's got a point that we should.
be very cautious that we're not being caught up in, you know, relying on a kind ofpolitical movement to bring about the kingdom of God.
(10:36):
At the same time, though, like you said, we cannot be obtuse to what is going on in thepolitic in the civil estate.
And that is going back to what I was saying, like from Romans 13, that's for the sake ofyour conscience.
It's for conscience sake.
So that you don't, so this is usually how it goes.
It's like, okay, you think that socialism, that the dichotomy of socialism and capitalism,and that's how you see all politics.
(11:06):
Okay, you're already on the wrong track.
So you think that it's just socialism is just economic.
It's just like government control or less government control.
And then, so then eventually you start realizing that, well, government control andgovernment programs aren't bad.
Which I would agree, they're not bad in themselves, you know, like to have a treasury forthe poor, to take care of the poor.
Well, of course, you know, and then what they do is they say, therefore socialism is good.
(11:29):
And then they start listening more to the socialists who are total secularists and areantagonistic to everything holy.
then lo and behold, they become pagans.
They become like atheists, you know, when, when, they would have just understood that, theissue is not about
bigger, small government, the issue is about what has, like you said, all authority getsits authority from God.
(11:58):
And the central authority, if you want to use that word, the authority from which allother authority on earth is derived, that earthly estate is
mom and dad, the family, and expands from there.
And even like, Aristotle understood this.
I pagans, like natural law can tell you this.
(12:18):
But if you're, if you're operating rather just from this like, individual market driven,you know, GDP driven sort of politic, then you're already I mean, it's you're basically
serving mammon and it's not going to lead you anywhere.
And it also comes from like what you're listening to, like sources are so important.
(12:38):
This is why we should read our Bible more, read the confessions, read the large catechism.
Because when you listen to talk radio or you read The uh Economist and Milton Friedman isgoing to tell you like his goal, Milton Friedman wasn't a Christian, right?
Yeah.
these uh talk show hosts, they don't, their goal, they talk about Christianity if it'llgive them their views or listeners or whatever it is.
(13:03):
Like I got, I think I scandalized
was one of the pastors in my circuit recently because I said, we lost the Cold War.
He's like, what do you mean?
We won the Cold War, Reagan.
And I was just like, no.
said, like what?
He said, how did we win the Cold War?
was like, well, militarily, like, you our military is all around us.
What good does that do to me?
What good does America have in 500, 900, however many military bases around the world?
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What good does that do to me if we win a war halfway around the world and I'm notcomfortable sending my children to the local
governments.
Yeah, exactly.
uh I would like to start a Lutheran school, we can't get enough motivation to do it.
like, how have my children who live in the United States of America, how have their livesgotten better from the Vietnam War, from our interference and how Singapore having a free
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market, how does that help my children have a school where they're actually going to betaught scripture, where they're going to be taught that a man is a
and a woman is a woman.
I don't take my children to the public library.
used to, this was my routine.
Friday was my day off.
would work out, then I'd take the kids to story hour at the library, and then we'd go andget it.
(14:19):
I'd take the kids up for a donut.
Actually.
But that was back when I worked out.
But that was my routine.
would take the kids to the story hour, and then I would take them up for a donut.
And I stopped doing it because well, COVID happened.
And then they uh locked down.
(14:40):
This is actually funny.
So Teresa would call and say, we have to go pick up the books.
And she would call and say, we're on our two hour lunch break.
And she said, you have a two hour lunch break?
They said, yes.
She's like, so I can't pick up these books during that time?
No, it's during our lunch break.
And she said, have you ever watched Seinfeld?
But you shouldn't watch, it's a terrible show.
that's a line where Newman comes and he says like, Deborah, whatever.
(15:05):
it was, why don't you go take your two hour lunch break?
But anyway, so then I finally, they let you into the library and I was looking around andthey have all this trans stuff and they have gay stuff in the children.
that Tamwa?
And it's from Iowa.
like, uh Association of American Libraries or whatever their association is called, it'sjust all just cultural Marxists.
(15:29):
So they've taken over all these institutions.
But uh my point is, is that you don't listen to conservative big heads.
uh tell you about where we're winning and where we're losing, you actually have to look atyour family.
Are you comfortable taking your children to your local library, which is funded by yourtax dollars?
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Are you comfortable sending your children to the local public school and that they're notgoing to be indoctrinated into atheistic evolution ah and that they're not going to be
exposed to the creepy sex lives of the faculty?
No, okay, that means that we're not winning.
Yeah, or just this pompous materialism of like, be whatever you can be, follow your dreamsand all of this just self-centered kind uh of drive.
(16:21):
One of the things that...
So, so when it comes to politics is in the realm of the law.
And I think one of the points that you made in your article was that, yes, the gospelshould predominate.
The law also affects the conscience, right?
And that means that laws that are made, even positive laws that are made, affect theconscience.
(16:46):
So like before 1973, most Americans were pro-life.
And then after Roe v.
Wade, it shifted.
And the same thing happened with Obergefell with gay marriage.
The Church needs faithful pastors.
She also needs faithful laymen to lead their homes and their congregations.
(17:07):
Camp Trinity Academy is a week-long camp at Camp Trinity in New Haven, Missouri, designedto help the Lutheran Church, specifically local pastors and congregations, raise up men to
be pastors.
The camp welcomes boys ages 12 to 18 who are considering the possibility of studying atseminary and serving in the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
(17:31):
that is the LCMS or other confessional Lutheran congregations.
We also welcome pastors to attend as chaperones, teachers, and mentors during the week.
Camp Trinity Academy has become a highlight of the summer for several boys who areinterested in theology and who are also interested in growing with other Lutheran boys
their age.
(17:52):
During this week, the campers get a taste of seminary by taking three classes a day aswell as fireside chats in the evening.
This seminary experience also includes an hour of library time every day, where eachcamper explores his own theological interests, checking books out from the library here at
Camp Trinity.
They get a taste of the everyday life of a pastor as well, as they participate in fieldwork, accompanying the chaperon pastors on shut-in visits and other regular pastoral
(18:22):
duties.
With a daily regimen of matins, vespers, and complin,
The campers experience the rich heritage of our Lutheran liturgy and hymnody withopportunities to serve as lectors.
And so they get to know the ins and outs of the liturgy.
But Camp Trinity Academy isn't just all work and no play.
(18:45):
Besides the worship, classes, and field work, they also enjoy several outdoor activities,free time, swimming, and Chicago-style softball games every evening.
While we thank God for our seminaries, we realize that we need to start preparing men forleadership in the Church when they are young, so that when they get to seminary, they have
(19:07):
a leg up.
Camp Trinity Academy is designed to foster mentorships between young men and their homepastors.
This summer, Camp Trinity Academy is from July 13th through July 18th.
For more information and to register your son or parishioner for this camp,
visit our website at CampTrinityAcademy.com.
(19:29):
That's CampTrinityAcademy.com.
Camp Trinity Academy, a camp for confessional Lutheran boys who want to study theology.
So then what happened with that was immediately, and like you remember when Bruce Jennerdecided that he was a girl.
(19:50):
Right.
You remember when...
I don't watch late night, but I remember seeing clips where there were all these latenight hosts like Jimmy Kimmel and others who were making jokes about uh Bruce Jenner.
And then like overnight, they stopped and it was totally changed.
(20:11):
a clip of Jimmy Fallon.
He says something to that RuPaul homosexual and the guy who dressed up as a...
I don't know what he is.
he then...
Oh, he called him a drag queen.
And then he said, drag queen?
looked at him.
then Jimmy Fallon, you can see in his face, he's just like, I messed up.
(20:33):
I angered the people who are in power.
And then he says, I'm the queen of drag.
It but like then he like has this great side with and you can totally see who has powerand who.
So the whole idea that they're a persecuted minority is just.
It is absurd.
and, also, so, so just back to, back to your point though, that, okay, while it's truethat the kingdom of God does not depend upon us having to make sure that the culture war
(21:06):
is one, whatever that even means, as you've been pointing out, like it's not being one.
um Nonetheless, like we care about, we care about the conscience of
our children of our our parishioners.
And just like it would be bad for my child's conscience to have him attend a sleepoverwith like disgusting stuff being promoted.
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It's also bad in general to have laws that directly attack the righteousness that Goddesires.
whether that's active righteousness or the most important righteousness, the righteousnessof the gospel, which of course, they hate the most.
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And so, it's not about finding, being able to accomplish some ideal, but it's about simplydoing your duty in your station in life and warning people not to be like children
tossed around by every wind of doctrine.
And that is what...
(22:22):
When you are...
When you're breathing, and we're all breathing in the same air, but when you breathe inthat air very deeply and actually start to believe that it's more important to be tolerant
than to be faithful, then you're already succumbing to the kind of political spirits inthe heavenly places.
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I think, like I said this in a sermon recently, that uh people think that your choice isbetween going to church and listening to a sermon or not going to church and not listening
to a sermon.
It's not true.
You're going to listen to a sermon either way because Satan is a preacher.
I said, Satan is a preacher.
The world is his pulpit.
And you, your old Adam has itching ears that wants to listen to him.
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And uh so I don't, like, I'm not, I don't want to be into politics.
I don't want to care about
these things.
I'm very jaded with all this stuff.
I get hopeful here and there and I'm know, I'm somewhat interested.
don't want to be like I don't want that to be my shtick of being like the pastor who'strying to get people politically active.
Like I don't care about that.
But I do recognize that the devil has a pulpit on on earth and part of his pulpit is thegovernment.
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And it's you just have to recognize
when things are made easier for you and when things are made more difficult.
So for example, no fault divorce has taught several generations now of Lutherans that it'sokay to divorce your husband or wife if things are difficult.
(23:56):
Well, what do your vows say?
Your vows say that uh you will be faithful in sickness and health for better, for worsetill death parts you.
uh
Jesus says what God has put together, let no man separate.
Scripture forbids this.
we now have a pulpit, someone loudly preaching from a pulpit and people don't starttapping their watches at 20 minutes.
(24:22):
So people are constantly hearing this preaching because it's the law.
The law is a preacher.
And we have the same thing with sports gambling.
If you do a poll of LCMS Lutherans, how many of them think it's a sin to bet on sports?
My guess is like 80 % of them would say, no, why would that be wrong?
It's illegal.
It's illegal.
It's like, yes, the same government that legalized homosexuals, uh not just simplyadopting children, but creating children in a petri dish and then having some poor woman
(24:53):
be compensated.
Like not nearly enough if you're actually going think about it to bear that child and thenhave that child ripped away from her forever and have this child who is just a commodity
be raised without children.
Without a parent or without a mother.
So I think there's just a great naivety that my battle isn't just simply against theUnited Methodist pastor a few miles down the road.
(25:21):
My battle isn't just against the ELCA pastor, the Roman Catholics, whatever it is.
we're preaching against pulpits that are in the media, that are in the government,especially it's a very, very loud one.
So it's not that I have to bring up politics in all of my sermons, but I do have torecognize what are my people hearing?
(25:42):
What sermons are they hearing preached?
And this is very biblical.
St.
John, why did John the Baptist feel it's so important that he preach against uh Herod?
and his, you know, marrying his divorced brother's wife.
mean, were there not other people who had divorced their wives?
I'm sure they had.
(26:02):
mean, as scripture says, the Jews were all into that.
They bring it up to Jesus.
It's because of Herod's prominent position.
And this is going to lead other people into sin.
And you see that with like, is Elijah preaching against Jehoram?
Right?
mean, when he's like supposed to, Jehoram of Judah, when he's supposed to be preaching topeople in Israel, why is Jonah sent to Nineveh?
(26:29):
mean, so it, and this, and these, that's Jonah being sent to Nineveh is not, I mean, it'sa, does foreshadow the great commission, but it's not the great commission.
He's preaching to a wicked city.
um,
Great Commission preaches to wicked.
Yeah, well, my point is I'm just trying to, you know, just preach my Ascension sermon andI was reading Martin Luther and he was just kind of pointing out that never before had God
(26:58):
sent uh people to preach to all nations.
So he's just expressing like the incredible power of the Great Commission.
um Which again is about the gospel.
So as far as like bringing up Borchuk, I mean, yeah, he's right.
We can never forget.
that the main uh thrust, the primary goal, and even you can even say the sole, I mean, incertain senses, the sole purpose of the church is to proclaim the gospel.
(27:28):
If you boil it down.
And I think that is an important thing that when people get obsessed with these guys onTwitter and YouTube and all these podcasts and stuff, and these guys just talk about
politics, the reason why they're talking about politics and stuff is because their sinfulflesh finds it more interesting than about your eternal salvation.
this is what I've been doing a Bible study on Job.
(27:50):
And this is the problem that Job is really about two courts.
One is the heavenly court where there's God and there's Job, and then there's Satanaccusing Job.
And God is also the mediator.
He's the defense attorney.
And then Job's friends come in to be the defense attorneys, to be the advocates.
(28:10):
But they are seen at all through the lens of a human court.
And Job's problem, like what's the thing that God charges him with is that you justifyyourself rather than me.
Right?
He didn't justify God.
In other words, what happened is that Job, who is actually keeping it pretty well onfocused on God in his conversation and his debate with his friends, he also follows them
(28:35):
down that bunny trail.
So it's sort of like you're trying to talk theology with someone.
You're trying to explain like why baptism saves or why we're justified by grace throughfaith alone, or that Jesus is true God, true man.
And you're, you know, you're, you're defending biblical inerrancy or something like that.
You're keeping, you're trying to stay focused on that.
And then people start saying, well, but you're not so perfect or look at what you did.
(28:58):
You know, look, you're, you're, um, you know, you, you, have this or that wrong with you.
And then instead of just ignoring that and staying focused on
the higher thing, you you follow them down that trail, because politics is always morestimulating to the flesh, because the law is more stimulating to the flesh, because
justifying yourself is more stimulating than justifying God.
(29:21):
Okay, with all this, okay, so this is this is another thing we've been talking about isthat the importance of the culture and of the
you the things going on in the politic, in the civil realm, has, you know, people, thinkfor good reasons, many Christians have woken up and many Lutherans have woken up to
(29:45):
saying, hey, we actually need to be teaching, we actually need to be instructing people inrighteousness, and not just be giving them like this kind of same old, you know, you're a
sinner, but you know, Jesus loves you kind of, kind of thing.
And then maybe have some sermon illustration that doesn't really
do anything.
And they say, we need to be teaching and being didactic.
(30:08):
But what I've what we both noticed is, with that emphasis, there is then this kind ofalmost throwing the baby out with the bathwater, where people will just sort of put down
law and gospel preaching as a law and gospel preaching is the wrong thing, or is this islike wrongheaded.
(30:28):
And we and they'll say, well,
Well, you got the gospel in the broad sense, which also includes instruction in the wholething.
And, you know, like it would include teaching about marriage, you know, and stuff likethat.
But this is a point that you've made, like in conferences, and I love it.
(30:49):
Every single time someone makes a comment about long gospel and in a kind of derogatoryway, you are right up there.
And you're saying,
Do not throw away law and gospel.
uh know that if you're going to preach the gospel in its broad sense, which includestalking about creation, talking about the Ten Commandments, talking about instruction,
(31:11):
Holy Olivia and all that stuff.
There's no such thing with, there's no such thing of the gospel in its broad sense, whichwithout the gospel in its narrow sense, which is God sent his son into the world to save
sinners, to justify you by grace through faith.
And if that is being neglected, if that atonement and that justification language is beingneglected or assumed because it's in the liturgy or something or in the hymns, even though
(31:39):
you're not, you're probably not even picking that great hymns anyway, ah then, then, well,we could, should really just focus on like telling people how to behave.
And it's kind of annoying because I do think we should be teaching people how to behave,you know, like remember the prayer that
Dad would always pray it at the end of, I think it was the end of like the Bougainhagenrite ah in Elias where it's like, grant that we may...
(32:06):
eh I can't remember exactly how goes, but it talks about like what we must believe and do.
What we must believe and do.
Like there is something to do.
But at the same time, don't take away the emphasis on the atonement.
Well, I'm not an antinomian.
(32:27):
I don't think anyone would read my sermons of Bible studies and assume I'm an antinomian.
ah And I focus a lot on this in my adult instructions and catechesis uh that we are, youknow, for holiness and that we talk about the new man a lot.
(32:48):
That being said, ah when people are bashing the law and gospel distinction, acting as ifthis is
isn't the foundation of all Lutheranism.
You look at all the teaching.
The Lankton says in the Confessions that the Bible is made up of the law and the promises.
(33:12):
This is very destructive for a number of reasons.
One, because I don't like bashing pastors.
think people should respect the pastors.
Pastors are going to get double on it.
So don't like the whole bashing pastors.
That being said,
Pastors are men and men are inherently lazy.
So when we teach, and I don't want to be criticizing any, like the guys that people may beno, like who we're talking about.
(33:37):
I love them all.
They're all good guys and they should be honored.
And they preach long gospel.
That's the whole thing too.
They do preach long gospel, they preach really good service.
But when we make comments like, long gospel, that's not, know, that's too simplistic,whatever it is.
you are going to have lazy preachers who will actually not preach the gospel.
(33:59):
And they'll think, well, this is a great sermon because I taught how a man is supposed tohave headship in his marriage and how a woman is supposed to submit to her husband.
And I taught and explained all these different things.
And did you comfort them with the forgiveness of sin?
What does Jesus call the Holy Spirit?
The comforter?
(34:20):
Did that comfort them?
And even if you teach, when you're teaching,
whether it's adults or kids for catechism, you have to...
for them to learn, but also for you to know what they're saying.
And I have thought I've explained the gospel just the clearest way.
And then I'll ask a very simple question, I think, about how we're saved.
(34:44):
How you you're saved.
Like, well, we obey the law.
I'm like, wow, it's not even necessarily because I'm a terrible teacher.
No.
Because I don't think I answer.
the gospel is an infrequent guest in the conscience.
Exactly.
And the law is a
Yes, it's the opinion of leg is it is the everyone assumes if you just do good you will beit was here So my son to be homeschooling kids and the thing about homeschooling is I like
(35:10):
it You know, think we're giving our kids the best education that we can give them in aterm.
Why with what we're doing That being said there are disadvantages.
I want to protect my kids from the evils of the world at the same time I You know, I don'twant them to suffer atrophy
where they're not able to fight.
Like I almost want to like enter, I think boxing's probably in the world, but I almostwant to teach my son how to box.
(35:36):
I want to teach them to fight and to do all these things just so they can have thatconfidence and also be able to deal with these things.
So anyway, so our church is on 14 acres, we're up on a big hill, and then there's thispark right next to it.
So people will often use our church's property as an extension of the park, which is forthe most part, it's okay.
mean, sometimes people do things that are rude, but.
(35:58):
Whatever.
Well, Thomas is my son, John, he's nine and he's riding his bike.
And then these kids come to schools out now.
So kids are starting to like come around.
These kids are a couple of years older than he was.
I was working.
So I didn't know about any of this.
I found out about later.
Well, they start picking on him and they start like, you know, making fun of him for beinga mama's boy and for being a church kid and all those other things.
(36:19):
And for the most part, I Thomas did a good job of defending himself.
But one of the questions was.
what we're just talking about.
homeschooling and the disadvantages.
No, before that.
I always use, I give too much.
do some bouts.
I'll give like a long introduction.
(36:43):
Oh yeah, that's right.
thank you.
we're talking about the...
Well, these kids, Thomas said, well, you need to believe in Jesus to be saved.
And the kids said, he loves Jesus.
And the kids, making fun of him for being a Christian, for knowing things about the Bibleand being a Christian.
And he said, well, I should.
That's what I should.
(37:04):
Well, anyway, he says, you need to believe in Jesus to be saved.
And the kid says, well, we're good people.
I'm a good person.
So these little kids who, you know...
don't go to church, they said they're gonna make fun of the neighborhood, pastor's son,who's just a little kid, he's nine years old, so they're just being bullies.
And this is why I'm gonna teach times out of box, so next time you you get punched.
(37:28):
think the insomniac he handled it with the weapons of warfare that...
that's actually what I read.
instead of doing that, I read him some pr-verbs about how the wise man like says, theloose from strife and things like that.
But it's true.
Who taught those 10 year old boys who were picking on my son that they're good people?
(37:54):
By the way, while they're picking on a c-, they say, we're good people and that's whywe're going to go to heaven.
That's what people think.
The biggest struggle that we have when it comes to evangelism and growing the church, Iactually care a lot more about evangelism than I do about uh demographics.
Yeah, or the government and things like that.
(38:16):
I want souls to come in.
If I had the choice of uh confessional Lutheran congregations increasing their churchattendance uh significantly.
or as having Republican-led government, I would choose the increase of church attendance.
(38:37):
Over and over over over again.
But this is our biggest problem with evangelism.
People don't believe that they need a savior.
So yes, you need to preach the law, but what we have to remember is the second use of thelaw is more important than the third use of the law.
is.
And anyone who says otherwise,
(38:58):
is uh just not thinking.
As a matter of fact, you need to know that you're a sinner because most people don't knowthat they need a savior.
They think that they can do
Well, the law is sort of like, it's almost like a, like it's got like a dip and there's ahigher one here where the, here's the first use was you, so just don't do bad things and
(39:24):
bad things tend, will tend to.
And then here's the third use where the Christian is able to kind of stand on a, on ahigher, you know, mountain or whatever, and actually see more clearly like
the salutary use of the law, but both of them, both the third use and the second use, arethe first use, are dipping down into the point of it and the chief use, which is the
(39:50):
second use, which is your sin to show that you are guilty before God.
oh And it's amazing how, I mean, the story you told about Thomas is such a great story.
And because at the heart of it,
At the heart of the whole issue, Thomas cut to the heart.
(40:10):
The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin.
Why?
Because they support gay marriage?
Because they uh don't go to church enough?
Because they do not believe in me.
That's at the heart of it all.
Now, do those other things bear witness to that sin?
Of course they do.
Absolutely.
of it.
Yeah, but Jesus doesn't mention it because if they believe in me, all of these things canbe forgiven.
(40:32):
That's right.
I'm not saying that you can believe in the gospel than being an Ansonomian andlessentious, yeah.
then that's not then you're believing a false gospel because the gospel that we that wetrust in is the gospel of life that bears fruit and and you know transforms us from one
glory to another but if you forget that the heart of it all is you know that basicallyThomas called these kids out you don't believe
(40:58):
Yeah, they made fun of him for believing in Jesus and he said, why would I be embarrassedabout that?
Why would I be embarrassed about that?
They made fun for like, you know, obeying his mom.
What would they say?
Okay, so he wears a helmet.
Now, we didn't wear helmets growing up.
My wife wants us to wear a helmet and I thought about this.
Am I going to put my foot down and say, no, my kids aren't going to wear helmets because Ididn't wear a helmet.
(41:21):
And then one of my kids ends up getting a brain injury and I'm going to be racked withguilt.
So I thought, well, I'm just going have my kids wear helmets.
So kid made fun of for wearing a helmet and he says, are wearing a helmet?
He well, my mom told me to call him a mama's boy.
And he said, you just want to make your mom happy.
And he said, well, yeah.
(41:42):
said, yeah, why wouldn't I want to make my mom happy?
And then they said, who do you love the most in the world?
And he said, Jesus.
And they said, well, you should love your mom and dad the most.
And he's like, no.
My parents want me to love Jesus more than my parents.
It's just so funny.
He's not embarrassed about any of these things.
You don't know this?
(42:03):
Yeah, and it makes sense to him too.
His mind has been conformed to God's image in that way.
just like learning to not be embarrassed about the gospel.
Bless those who are not ashamed because of me.
And this is such an important thing to teach uh our children, to teach our parishionersthat do not care.
(42:26):
Be like a nine-year-old who does not care that people are going to make fun of him.
He's just going to look at me why wouldn't I want my mom to be pleased with me?
is like, that is, this is the victory that overcomes the world.
Thomas telling these bullies that they need Jesus, you know, he believes in Jesus, it'sfaith.
(42:51):
And that no, that's great.
And it's encouraging because it shows us that we don't okay, so we shouldn't retreat.
We shouldn't act as if you know, what you vote for is totally irrelevant to
you know, your bubble of being a Christian.
No, the spirits are in the air and they want to get at your conscience and they're goingto work through your affections and in your actions to get to your conscience.
(43:23):
But at the heart of it, so when we say, okay, it's all about Jesus, that could be like areally unhelpful thing to say if you're not addressing like the actual elephants in the
room.
uh So if you say, it's all about Jesus, pathetic, nor like, just, you know, blatant andpenitence, then you're just you're being an antinomian.
(43:45):
at same time, it is all about Jesus.
Like they're.
So uh I've reading It Is Written by our great uncle, J.L.
Preuss.
I don't want to be criticized as a CPH, but my critique is so they only sell us an e-book.
And I wrote to him and said, well, I'm kind of in a hurry.
(44:05):
They bought the e-book and I didn't read it because I don't like staring at this computerscreen.
It's too distracting.
I'd rather like to read book.
So I wrote to him and I said, can I just buy this book?
print.
So I did, which is ridiculously expensive.
I look up like, okay, like 17 bucks for like a little paperback.
Let's take that then.
But anyway, I was reading it and it is a delight.
(44:26):
I love this book.
obviously, honestly, they should reprint it and they should just be pushing it out toeveryone.
Do people a lot of good because so during Seminex, this is what they did.
They said, ah because when they marched out there, the crosses and everything, they weresinging
the church is one foundation.
think like how on earth are they taking the high ground?
(44:50):
Well what does the hymn say?
The church is one foundation is Jesus Christ their Lord.
Which is true, right?
That's Ephesians.
Exactly.
So what they do is they say well Jesus is the truth.
So that's the, let answer, the formal principle, right?
The scripture, then the material principle.
which is what is the main message of scripture is Jesus.
(45:13):
So they mix it around, which is what all of these liberals and moderates do, especiallythe moderates.
They'll say, Jesus is the foundation.
Well, when you look at J.L.
Price's book, it is written.
What he starts is like, how does Jesus look at scripture?
And so he says, yeah, okay, fine, let's go to Jesus.
(45:33):
And what does Jesus say?
Scripture cannot be broken.
He goes to all of these passages.
He's opening up passages.
I'm like, ah, I didn't even notice that before.
Where Jesus is just over and over again pointing out that Scripture is the source of allteaching.
And if you want to know anything about me, then you have to recognize that Scripture isthe Word of God.
(45:55):
So he shows what Jesus says Scripture is, the purpose of Scripture, and all these things.
And this is a big problem because a few years ago,
LCMS, the Lutheran Church Canada, and Lutheran Church Canada made a joint statement onsubscription with the NAACP, the North American Lutheran Church, which is like one of the
more conservative break offs of the ELCA.
(46:16):
So I think they were more conservative than the LCMC, definitely have more.
Yeah.
But they still have wooden pastories, pretty sure they still teach evolution.
Oh yeah.
they write this thing on subscription.
And it's just kind of frustrating because we've been talking a lot about equivocation.
(46:41):
So if you look at grandpa's book on justification and wrong, whenever dad writes aboutjustification, he's always talking about people say that Roman Catholics and Lutherans
agree on justification, but it's equivocation.
So they have the same word with two different definitions.
So you're able to have two people who disagree with each other agree.
You have to be aware of that because that is every moderate or liberals tool.
(47:05):
That is the tool that they're going to bring out of their tool bag immediately becausethey're going to try to say something that you will agree with and face value, but they
have a different definition of the terms.
So I was reading through this and the whole time I'm thinking, because I had just read abook that you just have over, I just saw recently, Seminary in Crisis by, is that Paul
(47:26):
Ziermann?
Yeah, it's right up there.
And it's a great book, it really explains well the seminary crisis back in the 60s and70s.
And, but so I just read that.
And then I read in this article, so first they talk a huge amount about how the Bible isboth a human and a divine book.
And I'm thinking, yeah, okay, well, if we're going to make an analogy comparing it to thetwo natures in Christ, maybe we should talk about the genus, maestotikum, which means that
(47:53):
the divine nature empowers.
the human nature and that the human nature does not take away anything from the divinenature.
all they're doing is like, it's like, which is why Jesus
can be present with us in his body.
Yeah, and which is why even when human authors are writing, they're not making errors.
So I think the whole thing was just like, why are making such an emphasis?
(48:15):
It is a divine book, but it's also a human book.
I'm just like, yeah, but I don't trust this.
I smell a rat here.
And then they made the statement, we believe the Bible is the inspired word of God becauseit proclaims the gospel.
And I was like, there you go.
And I was like, how on earth did this, how did this pass?
How did no one?
(48:36):
in who I don't know who's in charge of with the LC it's Lutheran Church of Lutheran Churchof Missouri Synod.
This is like 10 years ago, nine years ago.
Like how on earth did nobody catch this?
That they're switching the formal principle with the material principle and then what theydo then that introduces gospel.
there were plenty of people who were sounding the alarms when that necessary distinctionsbook came out and that's where they publicized And they were just looked at, oh then
(49:05):
everyone's got to make...
People have to make sure that everyone knows they're not fundamentalists, they're notbiblicists.
I am a biblicist.
I wouldn't call myself a fundamentalist, but of course I'm a biblicist.
Yeah, no, that's...
So that was kind of going off on the other topic.
I guess I'm just more interested in those things.
I think that this is a big fight.
(49:27):
It was the fight 50 years ago.
I think it's a fight that we have to remind people today.
encourage everyone to read J.L.
Porson's book.
explains it very well.
ah But this is something that Lutherans need to understand, that the reason why theLutheran church is the best and is the
(49:49):
visible church on earth, right, is because of our biblical principles of biblicalinterpretation.
And what you're doing is you're having people who are in the Lutheran tradition use becareful that work.
And then but then they are changing around the fundamental, ah you know, the principles ofLutheranism.
(50:12):
So so I wrote like I did a podcast, started a podcast.
Bob's Way podcast.
And the first episode I did was like how Lutherans interpret the Bible.
And the first one was, you know, the formal principle that scripture is the inner word ofGod and source of all teaching.
And the second one is the material principle, the justification by grace to faith alone isthe heart of the gospel and the all doctrine flows in out of it.
(50:43):
Then I said, you know, scripture is clear.
And then I said that
know, magisterial.
a reason must be ministerial, must serve the text instead of ruling over it, which ismagisterial reason.
And then finally, I said, everything has to go back to the institution of what Jesus said.
(51:03):
if we're going to talk about baptism, we go to Jesus Institute in baptism, which is whyit's so important that Mark 16 was written by Mark.
You can't just say, well, it's okay, because Peter writes about it in, in 1 Peter 3.21.
Yeah.
Why did he write about that in 1 Peter 3.21?
Because Jesus said it already as recorded in Mark 16.16.
The idea that Peter would have said that in 1 Peter 3.21 without Jesus first
(51:28):
said it.
we, I guess we don't have time to run down that lane trail about belonging to park, butno, I agree with you.
And I'll just say that it's just annoying that, that so that I just find the whole thingvery annoying.
I mean, if we've one thing though, I wanted to say, uh so formal, and we got to kind ofwrap this up.
(51:53):
Right?
No, that's all right.
No, thanks for being here.
uh
The formal principle and material principle.
So formal principle is scripture.
Right.
And so another way of saying formal principle is the authority.
Right.
On what authority do we say things ah pertain to God?
On the authority of scripture.
The material principle being the gospel, that is the power.
(52:15):
The gospel, as Paul says, is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes.
And you can't have power without authority.
Exactly.
You can't have the authority
I suppose you can have authority without power, then you're just like, you're like saltthat's lost its saltiness.
So you can start with authority, but then if you don't drive it, if you don't uh receiveits actual fulfillment, and that's really how is the gospel the power of God, because it
(52:47):
fulfills the scriptures.
So to say that the Bible is the authority because of
the power of the gospel, and then you're assuming that you know what the power of thegospel is, uh but how do you know what the power of the gospel is apart from the authority
(53:09):
of the scriptures which they fulfill?
Jesus said it was necessary that everything written by Moses and the prophets should befulfilled.
And that is the authority that he uses to
to manifest what he has actually accomplished.
uh The other thing too, when it comes to the two natures, you hear this, the two naturesof Christ correspond to the two natures of scripture being divine and human.
(53:40):
Historically, Lutherans, and Grandpa talks about this in his Inspiration to Scripturebook, a better way to look at it is instead of it being the scriptures have a divine
nature and human nature.
The scriptures are only divine nature, but they have a human form to them.
So it corresponds, rather than corresponding to the incarnation, it corresponds rather tothe humiliation.
(54:05):
It's analogous to the humiliation of Christ.
So just like Jesus, who's in the form of God, took on the form of servant and hid hismajesty so that he would come in meekness, so the Holy Spirit, is third heaven, says
things that are not lawful to be uttered.
who groans with sighs that are too intercedes with sighs that are too deep for words,right?
(54:29):
Yet he condescends to the form of human language.
So it's not that there's a human uh nature to scripture, but it's rather a condescendingto human ears on the part of God out of his grace.
But those words are themselves divine words.
(54:51):
that, you know, it sounds good to a Lutheran who cares about like the two natures ofChrist and the incarnation, stuff like that.
It sounds good to us when we hear, yeah, the Bible kind of corresponds to that.
We were taught this even, you know, I kind of liked it when I first heard it.
And Herman Sasse speaks this way.
And I think a lot of people speak this way of how the scriptures have a human nature anddivine nature.
(55:11):
But this is really this is there's a there's a ploy and the farriest.
I see underneath it all.
to undermine the divine nature of the scripture.
Now, the point that you make though is also a good point.
like, okay, well, even if we are to look at the scriptures as divine and human, what haveyou ever heard of the genus maestaticum, right?
(55:35):
Which is, you know, that the divine, all of the attributes of the divine nature are fullycommunicated to the human nature.
So if we apply that to scripture, as you said, then we would say that
even the human side of scripture is divine, you know.
But yeah.
oh
whole making a long point, certain things you just kind of notice when you're like, Idon't trust this.
(56:01):
So when someone talks for a really long time about the Bible being a human book, I don'ttrust them.
And the reason why I don't trust them is because you don't need to talk more than a coupleof sentences about it because it's obvious.
It's written on paper, ink, it was written by human beings.
And a lot of the time with the Epistles, the name of the person is like the first word inthe letter.
(56:23):
We know it's a human book.
Why are you talking so much about being a human book?
Our point, our job as Christians is to convince people that it's a divine book.
So you don't have to convince anyone it's a human book.
already believes, 100 % of people on earth believe the Bible is a human book.
was not opposed by humans.
(56:46):
What are you doing?
What's your point?
So this is the whole thing.
My father-in-law loves ecumenism and I love my father-in-law.
I think ecumenism is largely a waste of time because I think it is rife with equivocationwhere you're just trying to agree with each other on these points.
(57:09):
And this is the big problem.
Quickly explain what's a humanism.
So ecumenism is the dialogue between different denominations.
So my father-in-law, he was part of ecumenical um efforts between the Lutherans and theRoman Catholics and also the Lutherans and the Anglicans, which is fine.
(57:29):
I don't think that we should talk.
So I'm not trying to throw his life's work away.
But it wasn't like his whole life's But um what my point is that we to be very, verycareful about it.
Because it's like, if I get invited over to dinner,
by my Democrat neighbors, I can have a very, very polite, nice conversation with them andhave a nice dinner with them.
(57:51):
I can do that.
But I'm going to say things that could be interpreted vaguely, right?
I'm gonna say things so that I don't offend or get in a fight with the people who'veinvited me into their homes or their barbecue, whatever it is.
uh
And I think that is just the nature of man.
(58:14):
So when you have these ecumenical things and you're not going to say, Hey, listen, we needto get into politics.
And instead they say, what can we say that we agree with?
I think that it's just rife with uh equivocation, meaning that they're going to try to saythings that both sides can agree on face value, but you're able to hold your private
(58:36):
interpretation of it, ah which doesn't do
any good.
It doesn't help my parents.
That's the whole thing going back to the local, going back to the family.
How does this help my congregation?
How does this help my family?
And I think that's something that we need to be focusing on.
How does this help clarify what is being proclaimed from this pulpit to these people?
(59:01):
Yeah.
Is this going to help my uh parishioners mark and avoid false teachers and find the purefountain of Israel?
Or is it going to make it more difficult for them?
I mean, you take like the like, what am I more annoyed at?
The ELCA or the LCMC?
The LCMC.
(59:21):
So the ELCA, which is the most liberal church body in uh America.
Well, I mean, yeah, for those liberal.
PCC is probably probable.
They deny that the Bible is Word of God, they promote homosexuality and abortion, they saythat Jesus isn't the only way to It is, I can, in 4.8 seconds, uh faster than a linebacker
(59:44):
can run a 40-yard dash.
Yeah, fast, Catholic and Christian, ill-married, I can explain to my members why theyshouldn't communicate in the LCH church.
But the LCMC is like, we're kind conservative.
But, you know, they don't have a statement on communion.
on open or closed communion.
They don't have statements on, know, they'll say they believe in scripture, but then theydon't, you know, they wouldn't pass this, but they don't even talk about that.
(01:00:08):
They don't have a seminary.
They don't have, mean, they are jello against the wall and that's way more difficult.
So you'll have people who go to the congregation, they'll talk.
So I had a communion at this LCMC, but we're not in fellowship with them.
And then it's like a half hour conversation to try and explain.
Yeah.
So
That's why I think we should be very worried about ecumenism or ecumenical dialogues.
(01:00:34):
Yeah, no, I agree.
I agree.
yeah, so I mean, just to kind of wrap all this stuff up, it's important to not avoidthese, whether it's ecumenical dialogues, or it's in the civil estate and political
issues, we shouldn't avoid these things.
(01:00:57):
But we also should guard against this kind of equivocation in both
both of those estates, and especially in the family estate as well, that we have to beable to address these issues without being afraid of being seen as overly political or
overly ecumenical or whatever.
(01:01:20):
But we have to be clear in our confession of what we are saying, what God's Word says inour lives, and what is the goal.
The goal is to be able to confess Christ before men and not be put to shame.
And that really if that's our if that's what we're focused on, then then I think we're onthe right track.
(01:01:45):
uh But also the other thing is we should be willing to like be disappointed.
We should be willing to suffer like Thomas who gets picked on like blessed as he forgreatest is reward in heaven.
Like that's what those are the kind of things that we should be, you know, desiring ourminds should be on those things.
I think...
But just going back to the very fundamentals, again, the fundamentals, right?
(01:02:06):
So we kind of started our conversation, how we talk about how we were libertarians when wewere young and immature in college.
The thing with libertarians is like, could, libertarianism could be right, but not byitself.
And that's kind of the problem with libertarianism.
It's just like, so it's so naked.
And then if it doesn't have Christian formation, it becomes very, very anti-Christian.
(01:02:27):
And you have to have the foundational points.
Scripture is the Word of God.
Christ has commissioned the church to proclaim the gospel, specifically in the narrowsense to all nations.
And that the soul and the family, these are the things that we're concerned about.
(01:02:47):
So why do I care about these political issues?
It's because I care about my family and I care about my soul.
Because that's what God told me to care about.
And that's what Jesus told me to care about.
How would Jesus told me care about these things?
Because it's in Scripture.
But when we start having different starting points, whether that's race, whether that istrying to be uh red-pilled or white-pilled or black-pilled or whatever the other different
(01:03:17):
pills are, you're going to end up with that perpendicular line, even if it is a very, verysmall angle and it looks like you are close.
you're constantly moving farther and farther and farther and farther away ah becauseyou're not actually on the right point.
Yeah, by the way, every time you bump this, it reminds me of that one YouTube video.
(01:03:39):
oh
That was a mess.
This is when you're an air horn.
All right, well thanks James for taking time out of your vacation.
Yeah, thanks for having me out with us.
Yeah, our niece hadn't gotten the stomach bug, I wouldn't even have stopped in.
uh
(01:04:00):
I'm sure she sounds like maybe a 24 hour thing.
I hope so.
We're going camping, so I hope we dodge.
I was saying grape juice.
ah That's what I heard at least.
That's good for communion too.
No it's uh
you
Okay, this is, we didn't really know what we were going to talk about exactly.
We just, we just start talking.
uh When it comes to, okay, so we're talking about rights.
We're talking about uh duties and, you know, how we both were kind of libertarian, but wedidn't really realize that we, well, I think we did realize that we were just, we were
(00:29):
just trying to uh make a civil case.
uh for our Christian worldview or Christian convictions.
um But I think it's important to learn politics, for Christians to learn politics, not sothat we can win the day necessarily, but for the sake of your conscience.
(00:59):
Like when Paul says in Romans 13, uh
You he says, he says you obey for conscience sake.
Right.
this would, we could elaborate on this that like you should know what natural law is.
You should know, you should be able to articulate or at least to some degree, thedifference between natural divine law and a positive civil law that would sort of be
(01:27):
extracted from that.
So you mentioned like the right to bear arms.
Okay.
Is the right to bear arms as such is not a natural right because arms are not like,
They don't grow on trees.
They're Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Unless you're talking about your arms, then okay, I guess.
(01:49):
uh But it's something that's derived from that.
It's a positive law uh policy that assumes a bedrock of a duty to protect your family andto protect your community and to protect your country.
uh
And so, but these are important things for us to talk about, ah like I said, for the sakeof the conscience, so that we can live a quiet and peaceful life and actually, and not
(02:22):
be...
and not fall into the winds of doctrine that would lead us away from Christ.
And one of the things that finally kind of struck me, and was actually, I'm reallythankful that we went to this, as dad called it, a pagan school, which he was totally
right.
I'm glad that we had a good church to go to.
(02:44):
We had some good Christian friends.
Things weren't perfect, but God saw us through.
What I'm glad for is that I realized that socialism is not just about economic policy.
It's not just about whether the government has control of this or that kind of thing.
(03:06):
But what I realized is that no, no, no, socialism is at its heart an atheistic ideologythat overlooks
uh the the the estates that God himself has established the duties that God himself hasestablished and in order to promote a kind of idealistic society and this is something
(03:30):
that have you ever had brothers Karamazov
No, it's not my reading.
unreasonably so near the beginning where he's going through the different he's introducingthe different characters.
He's introducing Ivan who's the he's the older brother who is an academic and he's anatheist and but anyway it says that he he holds to socialism and and he promotes socialism
(03:55):
and this is like 1870s I think maybe 1880s.
And Dostoevsky explains, by socialism, I don't mean, I'm kind of paraphrasing him, but hesays, I'm not talking about an economic ideology or an economic policy.
What I'm talking about is an atheistic agenda.
(04:17):
And that's the thing that like, when people say then that, well, they have this caricatureof socialism, and then you have other people who will say, no, they promote capitalism.
It's like, well, it's not about...
It's it's it's it's it's naive.
It's it's I don't know.
It's like playing checkers.
No, that's what the that's what the arrogant
(04:38):
Uh, playing checkers when someone else is playing chess.
The people who say that are normally morons.
But it gets down to like, if you read the Communist Manifesto, he talks about like, you'lluse revolution to tear down any building blocks that there are any institution that there
is so they can establish a new one.
(04:58):
And what we've seen is that so we don't we don't really talk so much about Marxists.
You have some people who do.
Maybe they'll say cultural Marxists.
They talk about globalists.
And what is a globalist?
Well, the globalists are Marxists.
But
They'll use free markets.
They'll use free trade.
They'll use.
I'm not like, you know, being like a pro-Trump terrorist.
That's not my point.
(05:19):
My point is that they'll like the communists will use free markets.
absolutely.
They'll use capital.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Part of like the thesis and tithesis synthesis of communism.
Oh, yeah, their goal is to destroy the family.
Yeah.
And if you read in the large catechisms you mentioned earlier, which is really just opensup everything, just read the you should just read through the large catechism once a year.
(05:39):
Like every at least everyone should just do it.
Every Lutheran should just do that, especially every pastor.
But in the Sixth Commandment, he talks about how, this is the marriage estate is moreimportant than than emperors than bishops and any of these other states, because this is
the foundation of all of it.
And I've written, you know, a couple of articles
(06:00):
where I talk about uh
that the church, the family is the proto-state and the proto-church because the state hasauthority over your body.
The church has authority over your soul, but it is the household, the house father who hasauthority over both the body and the soul.
He has a responsibility to feed and clothe his children and also to raise, to give theminstruction in the Lord.
(06:27):
So the power is at be, and this is satanic power.
that is beyond like, know, what's that what's that one German guy who at the WorldEconomic Forum that Klaus, uh whatever his name is, like, I'm not those aren't the guys,
they're not in charge.
People keep on saying, well, no, it's not the Clintons who are in charge.
It's Klaus who's in charge.
(06:48):
It's not Klaus in charge.
No, it's a secret society.
like, yeah, it's Satan.
Satan is the ruler.
world is with Jesus.
says, and what does he want to do?
He wants to destroy the family, which is why like you talk about like why you should careabout politics, we should care about politics because it is established by God.
Yeah, the three states God has established government, he's established the church, andhe's established the family.
(07:09):
And politics is an extension of the family.
So if you don't care at all about what your government is doing, then you don't care whatyour government is doing that affects your church, and what the government is doing that
affects the
state.
So you can you can be a realist, you can be non-political in the sense that, yeah, I'mnot, that's not my forte, but to be completely disinterested to the point where Christians
(07:36):
are being persecuted by your government, and you're obtuse to it.
Babies are being murdered, or the household is being reestablished or Christian orphanagesare being closed, and you're just like, well, I'm just not interested in that stuff.
Well, you should actually wake up and realize that you have a responsibility towards yourneighbor.
And part of that is, is what your government is doing.
(07:59):
Yeah, and to understand that there is, it's not that hard to recognize problems insociety.
The thing with communism and any other kind of manifestation of communism, which any kindof leftist manifestation of it, like feminism is another one, liberation kind of
(08:23):
movements, liberation theology, whatever.
uh
They all recognize problems.
Communism was a reaction against the industrial movement.
that saw a lot of families kind of broken apart and people having to work like 70, 80hours a week and all that kind of stuff.
(08:51):
so like the labor movement, Russell Kirk talks about this in his conservative mind, thatthe labor movement attracted a lot of conservatives because it appealed to the family, to
a conservative mentality.
And the problem though with these movements
with all these political movements, which you find a manifested on the right as well, isthat they seek political solutions to really what come down to spiritual problems.
(09:25):
And they're driven by an enthusiasm, like instead of relying upon, you know, the word ofGod, also the providence of God, that God's going to work things out and you need to just
do your duty and, you know, drink water out of your own cistern, right?
uh Or as TLC said, don't go chasing waterfalls, right?
(09:46):
ah I think that's Hannah's favorite song, right?
Yeah.
oh
know, that you do your duty and you allow God to work things out.
But instead, what these political movements are pushing is, well, we got to
(10:07):
like change the power around and that's going to be the solution to our problems.
So I think, know, like we've talked on here a bit.
We actually read your response to Korczak's article on Christian nationalism.
We've talked a little bit about that.
I mean, he's got a point that we should.
be very cautious that we're not being caught up in, you know, relying on a kind ofpolitical movement to bring about the kingdom of God.
(10:36):
At the same time, though, like you said, we cannot be obtuse to what is going on in thepolitic in the civil estate.
And that is going back to what I was saying, like from Romans 13, that's for the sake ofyour conscience.
It's for conscience sake.
So that you don't, so this is usually how it goes.
It's like, okay, you think that socialism, that the dichotomy of socialism and capitalism,and that's how you see all politics.
(11:06):
Okay, you're already on the wrong track.
So you think that it's just socialism is just economic.
It's just like government control or less government control.
And then, so then eventually you start realizing that, well, government control andgovernment programs aren't bad.
Which I would agree, they're not bad in themselves, you know, like to have a treasury forthe poor, to take care of the poor.
Well, of course, you know, and then what they do is they say, therefore socialism is good.
(11:29):
And then they start listening more to the socialists who are total secularists and areantagonistic to everything holy.
then lo and behold, they become pagans.
They become like atheists, you know, when, when, they would have just understood that, theissue is not about
bigger, small government, the issue is about what has, like you said, all authority getsits authority from God.
(11:58):
And the central authority, if you want to use that word, the authority from which allother authority on earth is derived, that earthly estate is
mom and dad, the family, and expands from there.
And even like, Aristotle understood this.
I pagans, like natural law can tell you this.
(12:18):
But if you're, if you're operating rather just from this like, individual market driven,you know, GDP driven sort of politic, then you're already I mean, it's you're basically
serving mammon and it's not going to lead you anywhere.
And it also comes from like what you're listening to, like sources are so important.
(12:38):
This is why we should read our Bible more, read the confessions, read the large catechism.
Because when you listen to talk radio or you read The uh Economist and Milton Friedman isgoing to tell you like his goal, Milton Friedman wasn't a Christian, right?
Yeah.
these uh talk show hosts, they don't, their goal, they talk about Christianity if it'llgive them their views or listeners or whatever it is.
(13:03):
Like I got, I think I scandalized
was one of the pastors in my circuit recently because I said, we lost the Cold War.
He's like, what do you mean?
We won the Cold War, Reagan.
And I was just like, no.
said, like what?
He said, how did we win the Cold War?
was like, well, militarily, like, you our military is all around us.
What good does that do to me?
What good does America have in 500, 900, however many military bases around the world?
(13:28):
What good does that do to me if we win a war halfway around the world and I'm notcomfortable sending my children to the local
governments.
Yeah, exactly.
uh I would like to start a Lutheran school, we can't get enough motivation to do it.
like, how have my children who live in the United States of America, how have their livesgotten better from the Vietnam War, from our interference and how Singapore having a free
(13:57):
market, how does that help my children have a school where they're actually going to betaught scripture, where they're going to be taught that a man is a
and a woman is a woman.
I don't take my children to the public library.
used to, this was my routine.
Friday was my day off.
would work out, then I'd take the kids to story hour at the library, and then we'd go andget it.
(14:19):
I'd take the kids up for a donut.
Actually.
But that was back when I worked out.
But that was my routine.
would take the kids to the story hour, and then I would take them up for a donut.
And I stopped doing it because well, COVID happened.
And then they uh locked down.
(14:40):
This is actually funny.
So Teresa would call and say, we have to go pick up the books.
And she would call and say, we're on our two hour lunch break.
And she said, you have a two hour lunch break?
They said, yes.
She's like, so I can't pick up these books during that time?
No, it's during our lunch break.
And she said, have you ever watched Seinfeld?
But you shouldn't watch, it's a terrible show.
that's a line where Newman comes and he says like, Deborah, whatever.
(15:05):
it was, why don't you go take your two hour lunch break?
But anyway, so then I finally, they let you into the library and I was looking around andthey have all this trans stuff and they have gay stuff in the children.
that Tamwa?
And it's from Iowa.
like, uh Association of American Libraries or whatever their association is called, it'sjust all just cultural Marxists.
(15:29):
So they've taken over all these institutions.
But uh my point is, is that you don't listen to conservative big heads.
uh tell you about where we're winning and where we're losing, you actually have to look atyour family.
Are you comfortable taking your children to your local library, which is funded by yourtax dollars?
(15:51):
Are you comfortable sending your children to the local public school and that they're notgoing to be indoctrinated into atheistic evolution ah and that they're not going to be
exposed to the creepy sex lives of the faculty?
No, okay, that means that we're not winning.
Yeah, or just this pompous materialism of like, be whatever you can be, follow your dreamsand all of this just self-centered kind uh of drive.
(16:21):
One of the things that...
So, so when it comes to politics is in the realm of the law.
And I think one of the points that you made in your article was that, yes, the gospelshould predominate.
The law also affects the conscience, right?
And that means that laws that are made, even positive laws that are made, affect theconscience.
(16:46):
So like before 1973, most Americans were pro-life.
And then after Roe v.
Wade, it shifted.
And the same thing happened with Obergefell with gay marriage.
The Church needs faithful pastors.
She also needs faithful laymen to lead their homes and their congregations.
(17:07):
Camp Trinity Academy is a week-long camp at Camp Trinity in New Haven, Missouri, designedto help the Lutheran Church, specifically local pastors and congregations, raise up men to
be pastors.
The camp welcomes boys ages 12 to 18 who are considering the possibility of studying atseminary and serving in the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
(17:31):
that is the LCMS or other confessional Lutheran congregations.
We also welcome pastors to attend as chaperones, teachers, and mentors during the week.
Camp Trinity Academy has become a highlight of the summer for several boys who areinterested in theology and who are also interested in growing with other Lutheran boys
their age.
(17:52):
During this week, the campers get a taste of seminary by taking three classes a day aswell as fireside chats in the evening.
This seminary experience also includes an hour of library time every day, where eachcamper explores his own theological interests, checking books out from the library here at
Camp Trinity.
They get a taste of the everyday life of a pastor as well, as they participate in fieldwork, accompanying the chaperon pastors on shut-in visits and other regular pastoral
(18:22):
duties.
With a daily regimen of matins, vespers, and complin,
The campers experience the rich heritage of our Lutheran liturgy and hymnody withopportunities to serve as lectors.
And so they get to know the ins and outs of the liturgy.
But Camp Trinity Academy isn't just all work and no play.
(18:45):
Besides the worship, classes, and field work, they also enjoy several outdoor activities,free time, swimming, and Chicago-style softball games every evening.
While we thank God for our seminaries, we realize that we need to start preparing men forleadership in the Church when they are young, so that when they get to seminary, they have
(19:07):
a leg up.
Camp Trinity Academy is designed to foster mentorships between young men and their homepastors.
This summer, Camp Trinity Academy is from July 13th through July 18th.
For more information and to register your son or parishioner for this camp,
visit our website at CampTrinityAcademy.com.
(19:29):
That's CampTrinityAcademy.com.
Camp Trinity Academy, a camp for confessional Lutheran boys who want to study theology.
So then what happened with that was immediately, and like you remember when Bruce Jennerdecided that he was a girl.
(19:50):
Right.
You remember when...
I don't watch late night, but I remember seeing clips where there were all these latenight hosts like Jimmy Kimmel and others who were making jokes about uh Bruce Jenner.
And then like overnight, they stopped and it was totally changed.
(20:11):
a clip of Jimmy Fallon.
He says something to that RuPaul homosexual and the guy who dressed up as a...
I don't know what he is.
he then...
Oh, he called him a drag queen.
And then he said, drag queen?
looked at him.
then Jimmy Fallon, you can see in his face, he's just like, I messed up.
(20:33):
I angered the people who are in power.
And then he says, I'm the queen of drag.
It but like then he like has this great side with and you can totally see who has powerand who.
So the whole idea that they're a persecuted minority is just.
It is absurd.
and, also, so, so just back to, back to your point though, that, okay, while it's truethat the kingdom of God does not depend upon us having to make sure that the culture war
(21:06):
is one, whatever that even means, as you've been pointing out, like it's not being one.
um Nonetheless, like we care about, we care about the conscience of
our children of our our parishioners.
And just like it would be bad for my child's conscience to have him attend a sleepoverwith like disgusting stuff being promoted.
(21:34):
It's also bad in general to have laws that directly attack the righteousness that Goddesires.
whether that's active righteousness or the most important righteousness, the righteousnessof the gospel, which of course, they hate the most.
(21:58):
And so, it's not about finding, being able to accomplish some ideal, but it's about simplydoing your duty in your station in life and warning people not to be like children
tossed around by every wind of doctrine.
And that is what...
(22:22):
When you are...
When you're breathing, and we're all breathing in the same air, but when you breathe inthat air very deeply and actually start to believe that it's more important to be tolerant
than to be faithful, then you're already succumbing to the kind of political spirits inthe heavenly places.
(22:43):
I think, like I said this in a sermon recently, that uh people think that your choice isbetween going to church and listening to a sermon or not going to church and not listening
to a sermon.
It's not true.
You're going to listen to a sermon either way because Satan is a preacher.
I said, Satan is a preacher.
The world is his pulpit.
And you, your old Adam has itching ears that wants to listen to him.
(23:06):
And uh so I don't, like, I'm not, I don't want to be into politics.
I don't want to care about
these things.
I'm very jaded with all this stuff.
I get hopeful here and there and I'm know, I'm somewhat interested.
don't want to be like I don't want that to be my shtick of being like the pastor who'strying to get people politically active.
Like I don't care about that.
But I do recognize that the devil has a pulpit on on earth and part of his pulpit is thegovernment.
(23:35):
And it's you just have to recognize
when things are made easier for you and when things are made more difficult.
So for example, no fault divorce has taught several generations now of Lutherans that it'sokay to divorce your husband or wife if things are difficult.
(23:56):
Well, what do your vows say?
Your vows say that uh you will be faithful in sickness and health for better, for worsetill death parts you.
uh
Jesus says what God has put together, let no man separate.
Scripture forbids this.
we now have a pulpit, someone loudly preaching from a pulpit and people don't starttapping their watches at 20 minutes.
(24:22):
So people are constantly hearing this preaching because it's the law.
The law is a preacher.
And we have the same thing with sports gambling.
If you do a poll of LCMS Lutherans, how many of them think it's a sin to bet on sports?
My guess is like 80 % of them would say, no, why would that be wrong?
It's illegal.
It's illegal.
It's like, yes, the same government that legalized homosexuals, uh not just simplyadopting children, but creating children in a petri dish and then having some poor woman
(24:53):
be compensated.
Like not nearly enough if you're actually going think about it to bear that child and thenhave that child ripped away from her forever and have this child who is just a commodity
be raised without children.
Without a parent or without a mother.
So I think there's just a great naivety that my battle isn't just simply against theUnited Methodist pastor a few miles down the road.
(25:21):
My battle isn't just against the ELCA pastor, the Roman Catholics, whatever it is.
we're preaching against pulpits that are in the media, that are in the government,especially it's a very, very loud one.
So it's not that I have to bring up politics in all of my sermons, but I do have torecognize what are my people hearing?
(25:42):
What sermons are they hearing preached?
And this is very biblical.
St.
John, why did John the Baptist feel it's so important that he preach against uh Herod?
and his, you know, marrying his divorced brother's wife.
mean, were there not other people who had divorced their wives?
I'm sure they had.
(26:02):
mean, as scripture says, the Jews were all into that.
They bring it up to Jesus.
It's because of Herod's prominent position.
And this is going to lead other people into sin.
And you see that with like, is Elijah preaching against Jehoram?
Right?
mean, when he's like supposed to, Jehoram of Judah, when he's supposed to be preaching topeople in Israel, why is Jonah sent to Nineveh?
(26:29):
mean, so it, and this, and these, that's Jonah being sent to Nineveh is not, I mean, it'sa, does foreshadow the great commission, but it's not the great commission.
He's preaching to a wicked city.
um,
Great Commission preaches to wicked.
Yeah, well, my point is I'm just trying to, you know, just preach my Ascension sermon andI was reading Martin Luther and he was just kind of pointing out that never before had God
(26:58):
sent uh people to preach to all nations.
So he's just expressing like the incredible power of the Great Commission.
um Which again is about the gospel.
So as far as like bringing up Borchuk, I mean, yeah, he's right.
We can never forget.
that the main uh thrust, the primary goal, and even you can even say the sole, I mean, incertain senses, the sole purpose of the church is to proclaim the gospel.
(27:28):
If you boil it down.
And I think that is an important thing that when people get obsessed with these guys onTwitter and YouTube and all these podcasts and stuff, and these guys just talk about
politics, the reason why they're talking about politics and stuff is because their sinfulflesh finds it more interesting than about your eternal salvation.
this is what I've been doing a Bible study on Job.
(27:50):
And this is the problem that Job is really about two courts.
One is the heavenly court where there's God and there's Job, and then there's Satanaccusing Job.
And God is also the mediator.
He's the defense attorney.
And then Job's friends come in to be the defense attorneys, to be the advocates.
(28:10):
But they are seen at all through the lens of a human court.
And Job's problem, like what's the thing that God charges him with is that you justifyyourself rather than me.
Right?
He didn't justify God.
In other words, what happened is that Job, who is actually keeping it pretty well onfocused on God in his conversation and his debate with his friends, he also follows them
(28:35):
down that bunny trail.
So it's sort of like you're trying to talk theology with someone.
You're trying to explain like why baptism saves or why we're justified by grace throughfaith alone, or that Jesus is true God, true man.
And you're, you know, you're, you're defending biblical inerrancy or something like that.
You're keeping, you're trying to stay focused on that.
And then people start saying, well, but you're not so perfect or look at what you did.
(28:58):
You know, look, you're, you're, um, you know, you, you, have this or that wrong with you.
And then instead of just ignoring that and staying focused on
the higher thing, you you follow them down that trail, because politics is always morestimulating to the flesh, because the law is more stimulating to the flesh, because
justifying yourself is more stimulating than justifying God.
(29:21):
Okay, with all this, okay, so this is this is another thing we've been talking about isthat the importance of the culture and of the
you the things going on in the politic, in the civil realm, has, you know, people, thinkfor good reasons, many Christians have woken up and many Lutherans have woken up to
(29:45):
saying, hey, we actually need to be teaching, we actually need to be instructing people inrighteousness, and not just be giving them like this kind of same old, you know, you're a
sinner, but you know, Jesus loves you kind of, kind of thing.
And then maybe have some sermon illustration that doesn't really
do anything.
And they say, we need to be teaching and being didactic.
(30:08):
But what I've what we both noticed is, with that emphasis, there is then this kind ofalmost throwing the baby out with the bathwater, where people will just sort of put down
law and gospel preaching as a law and gospel preaching is the wrong thing, or is this islike wrongheaded.
(30:28):
And we and they'll say, well,
Well, you got the gospel in the broad sense, which also includes instruction in the wholething.
And, you know, like it would include teaching about marriage, you know, and stuff likethat.
But this is a point that you've made, like in conferences, and I love it.
(30:49):
Every single time someone makes a comment about long gospel and in a kind of derogatoryway, you are right up there.
And you're saying,
Do not throw away law and gospel.
uh know that if you're going to preach the gospel in its broad sense, which includestalking about creation, talking about the Ten Commandments, talking about instruction,
(31:11):
Holy Olivia and all that stuff.
There's no such thing with, there's no such thing of the gospel in its broad sense, whichwithout the gospel in its narrow sense, which is God sent his son into the world to save
sinners, to justify you by grace through faith.
And if that is being neglected, if that atonement and that justification language is beingneglected or assumed because it's in the liturgy or something or in the hymns, even though
(31:39):
you're not, you're probably not even picking that great hymns anyway, ah then, then, well,we could, should really just focus on like telling people how to behave.
And it's kind of annoying because I do think we should be teaching people how to behave,you know, like remember the prayer that
Dad would always pray it at the end of, I think it was the end of like the Bougainhagenrite ah in Elias where it's like, grant that we may...
(32:06):
eh I can't remember exactly how goes, but it talks about like what we must believe and do.
What we must believe and do.
Like there is something to do.
But at the same time, don't take away the emphasis on the atonement.
Well, I'm not an antinomian.
(32:27):
I don't think anyone would read my sermons of Bible studies and assume I'm an antinomian.
ah And I focus a lot on this in my adult instructions and catechesis uh that we are, youknow, for holiness and that we talk about the new man a lot.
(32:48):
That being said, ah when people are bashing the law and gospel distinction, acting as ifthis is
isn't the foundation of all Lutheranism.
You look at all the teaching.
The Lankton says in the Confessions that the Bible is made up of the law and the promises.
(33:12):
This is very destructive for a number of reasons.
One, because I don't like bashing pastors.
think people should respect the pastors.
Pastors are going to get double on it.
So don't like the whole bashing pastors.
That being said,
Pastors are men and men are inherently lazy.
So when we teach, and I don't want to be criticizing any, like the guys that people may beno, like who we're talking about.
(33:37):
I love them all.
They're all good guys and they should be honored.
And they preach long gospel.
That's the whole thing too.
They do preach long gospel, they preach really good service.
But when we make comments like, long gospel, that's not, know, that's too simplistic,whatever it is.
you are going to have lazy preachers who will actually not preach the gospel.
(33:59):
And they'll think, well, this is a great sermon because I taught how a man is supposed tohave headship in his marriage and how a woman is supposed to submit to her husband.
And I taught and explained all these different things.
And did you comfort them with the forgiveness of sin?
What does Jesus call the Holy Spirit?
The comforter?
(34:20):
Did that comfort them?
And even if you teach, when you're teaching,
whether it's adults or kids for catechism, you have to...
for them to learn, but also for you to know what they're saying.
And I have thought I've explained the gospel just the clearest way.
And then I'll ask a very simple question, I think, about how we're saved.
(34:44):
How you you're saved.
Like, well, we obey the law.
I'm like, wow, it's not even necessarily because I'm a terrible teacher.
No.
Because I don't think I answer.
the gospel is an infrequent guest in the conscience.
Exactly.
And the law is a
Yes, it's the opinion of leg is it is the everyone assumes if you just do good you will beit was here So my son to be homeschooling kids and the thing about homeschooling is I like
(35:10):
it You know, think we're giving our kids the best education that we can give them in aterm.
Why with what we're doing That being said there are disadvantages.
I want to protect my kids from the evils of the world at the same time I You know, I don'twant them to suffer atrophy
where they're not able to fight.
Like I almost want to like enter, I think boxing's probably in the world, but I almostwant to teach my son how to box.
(35:36):
I want to teach them to fight and to do all these things just so they can have thatconfidence and also be able to deal with these things.
So anyway, so our church is on 14 acres, we're up on a big hill, and then there's thispark right next to it.
So people will often use our church's property as an extension of the park, which is forthe most part, it's okay.
mean, sometimes people do things that are rude, but.
(35:58):
Whatever.
Well, Thomas is my son, John, he's nine and he's riding his bike.
And then these kids come to schools out now.
So kids are starting to like come around.
These kids are a couple of years older than he was.
I was working.
So I didn't know about any of this.
I found out about later.
Well, they start picking on him and they start like, you know, making fun of him for beinga mama's boy and for being a church kid and all those other things.
(36:19):
And for the most part, I Thomas did a good job of defending himself.
But one of the questions was.
what we're just talking about.
homeschooling and the disadvantages.
No, before that.
I always use, I give too much.
do some bouts.
I'll give like a long introduction.
(36:43):
Oh yeah, that's right.
thank you.
we're talking about the...
Well, these kids, Thomas said, well, you need to believe in Jesus to be saved.
And the kids said, he loves Jesus.
And the kids, making fun of him for being a Christian, for knowing things about the Bibleand being a Christian.
And he said, well, I should.
That's what I should.
(37:04):
Well, anyway, he says, you need to believe in Jesus to be saved.
And the kid says, well, we're good people.
I'm a good person.
So these little kids who, you know...
don't go to church, they said they're gonna make fun of the neighborhood, pastor's son,who's just a little kid, he's nine years old, so they're just being bullies.
And this is why I'm gonna teach times out of box, so next time you you get punched.
(37:28):
think the insomniac he handled it with the weapons of warfare that...
that's actually what I read.
instead of doing that, I read him some pr-verbs about how the wise man like says, theloose from strife and things like that.
But it's true.
Who taught those 10 year old boys who were picking on my son that they're good people?
(37:54):
By the way, while they're picking on a c-, they say, we're good people and that's whywe're going to go to heaven.
That's what people think.
The biggest struggle that we have when it comes to evangelism and growing the church, Iactually care a lot more about evangelism than I do about uh demographics.
Yeah, or the government and things like that.
(38:16):
I want souls to come in.
If I had the choice of uh confessional Lutheran congregations increasing their churchattendance uh significantly.
or as having Republican-led government, I would choose the increase of church attendance.
(38:37):
Over and over over over again.
But this is our biggest problem with evangelism.
People don't believe that they need a savior.
So yes, you need to preach the law, but what we have to remember is the second use of thelaw is more important than the third use of the law.
is.
And anyone who says otherwise,
(38:58):
is uh just not thinking.
As a matter of fact, you need to know that you're a sinner because most people don't knowthat they need a savior.
They think that they can do
Well, the law is sort of like, it's almost like a, like it's got like a dip and there's ahigher one here where the, here's the first use was you, so just don't do bad things and
(39:24):
bad things tend, will tend to.
And then here's the third use where the Christian is able to kind of stand on a, on ahigher, you know, mountain or whatever, and actually see more clearly like
the salutary use of the law, but both of them, both the third use and the second use, arethe first use, are dipping down into the point of it and the chief use, which is the
(39:50):
second use, which is your sin to show that you are guilty before God.
oh And it's amazing how, I mean, the story you told about Thomas is such a great story.
And because at the heart of it,
At the heart of the whole issue, Thomas cut to the heart.
(40:10):
The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin.
Why?
Because they support gay marriage?
Because they uh don't go to church enough?
Because they do not believe in me.
That's at the heart of it all.
Now, do those other things bear witness to that sin?
Of course they do.
Absolutely.
of it.
Yeah, but Jesus doesn't mention it because if they believe in me, all of these things canbe forgiven.
(40:32):
That's right.
I'm not saying that you can believe in the gospel than being an Ansonomian andlessentious, yeah.
then that's not then you're believing a false gospel because the gospel that we that wetrust in is the gospel of life that bears fruit and and you know transforms us from one
glory to another but if you forget that the heart of it all is you know that basicallyThomas called these kids out you don't believe
(40:58):
Yeah, they made fun of him for believing in Jesus and he said, why would I be embarrassedabout that?
Why would I be embarrassed about that?
They made fun for like, you know, obeying his mom.
What would they say?
Okay, so he wears a helmet.
Now, we didn't wear helmets growing up.
My wife wants us to wear a helmet and I thought about this.
Am I going to put my foot down and say, no, my kids aren't going to wear helmets because Ididn't wear a helmet.
(41:21):
And then one of my kids ends up getting a brain injury and I'm going to be racked withguilt.
So I thought, well, I'm just going have my kids wear helmets.
So kid made fun of for wearing a helmet and he says, are wearing a helmet?
He well, my mom told me to call him a mama's boy.
And he said, you just want to make your mom happy.
And he said, well, yeah.
(41:42):
said, yeah, why wouldn't I want to make my mom happy?
And then they said, who do you love the most in the world?
And he said, Jesus.
And they said, well, you should love your mom and dad the most.
And he's like, no.
My parents want me to love Jesus more than my parents.
It's just so funny.
He's not embarrassed about any of these things.
You don't know this?
(42:03):
Yeah, and it makes sense to him too.
His mind has been conformed to God's image in that way.
just like learning to not be embarrassed about the gospel.
Bless those who are not ashamed because of me.
And this is such an important thing to teach uh our children, to teach our parishionersthat do not care.
(42:26):
Be like a nine-year-old who does not care that people are going to make fun of him.
He's just going to look at me why wouldn't I want my mom to be pleased with me?
is like, that is, this is the victory that overcomes the world.
Thomas telling these bullies that they need Jesus, you know, he believes in Jesus, it'sfaith.
(42:51):
And that no, that's great.
And it's encouraging because it shows us that we don't okay, so we shouldn't retreat.
We shouldn't act as if you know, what you vote for is totally irrelevant to
you know, your bubble of being a Christian.
No, the spirits are in the air and they want to get at your conscience and they're goingto work through your affections and in your actions to get to your conscience.
(43:23):
But at the heart of it, so when we say, okay, it's all about Jesus, that could be like areally unhelpful thing to say if you're not addressing like the actual elephants in the
room.
uh So if you say, it's all about Jesus, pathetic, nor like, just, you know, blatant andpenitence, then you're just you're being an antinomian.
(43:45):
at same time, it is all about Jesus.
Like they're.
So uh I've reading It Is Written by our great uncle, J.L.
Preuss.
I don't want to be criticized as a CPH, but my critique is so they only sell us an e-book.
And I wrote to him and said, well, I'm kind of in a hurry.
(44:05):
They bought the e-book and I didn't read it because I don't like staring at this computerscreen.
It's too distracting.
I'd rather like to read book.
So I wrote to him and I said, can I just buy this book?
print.
So I did, which is ridiculously expensive.
I look up like, okay, like 17 bucks for like a little paperback.
Let's take that then.
But anyway, I was reading it and it is a delight.
(44:26):
I love this book.
obviously, honestly, they should reprint it and they should just be pushing it out toeveryone.
Do people a lot of good because so during Seminex, this is what they did.
They said, ah because when they marched out there, the crosses and everything, they weresinging
the church is one foundation.
think like how on earth are they taking the high ground?
(44:50):
Well what does the hymn say?
The church is one foundation is Jesus Christ their Lord.
Which is true, right?
That's Ephesians.
Exactly.
So what they do is they say well Jesus is the truth.
So that's the, let answer, the formal principle, right?
The scripture, then the material principle.
which is what is the main message of scripture is Jesus.
(45:13):
So they mix it around, which is what all of these liberals and moderates do, especiallythe moderates.
They'll say, Jesus is the foundation.
Well, when you look at J.L.
Price's book, it is written.
What he starts is like, how does Jesus look at scripture?
And so he says, yeah, okay, fine, let's go to Jesus.
(45:33):
And what does Jesus say?
Scripture cannot be broken.
He goes to all of these passages.
He's opening up passages.
I'm like, ah, I didn't even notice that before.
Where Jesus is just over and over again pointing out that Scripture is the source of allteaching.
And if you want to know anything about me, then you have to recognize that Scripture isthe Word of God.
(45:55):
So he shows what Jesus says Scripture is, the purpose of Scripture, and all these things.
And this is a big problem because a few years ago,
LCMS, the Lutheran Church Canada, and Lutheran Church Canada made a joint statement onsubscription with the NAACP, the North American Lutheran Church, which is like one of the
more conservative break offs of the ELCA.
(46:16):
So I think they were more conservative than the LCMC, definitely have more.
Yeah.
But they still have wooden pastories, pretty sure they still teach evolution.
Oh yeah.
they write this thing on subscription.
And it's just kind of frustrating because we've been talking a lot about equivocation.
(46:41):
So if you look at grandpa's book on justification and wrong, whenever dad writes aboutjustification, he's always talking about people say that Roman Catholics and Lutherans
agree on justification, but it's equivocation.
So they have the same word with two different definitions.
So you're able to have two people who disagree with each other agree.
You have to be aware of that because that is every moderate or liberals tool.
(47:05):
That is the tool that they're going to bring out of their tool bag immediately becausethey're going to try to say something that you will agree with and face value, but they
have a different definition of the terms.
So I was reading through this and the whole time I'm thinking, because I had just read abook that you just have over, I just saw recently, Seminary in Crisis by, is that Paul
(47:26):
Ziermann?
Yeah, it's right up there.
And it's a great book, it really explains well the seminary crisis back in the 60s and70s.
And, but so I just read that.
And then I read in this article, so first they talk a huge amount about how the Bible isboth a human and a divine book.
And I'm thinking, yeah, okay, well, if we're going to make an analogy comparing it to thetwo natures in Christ, maybe we should talk about the genus, maestotikum, which means that
(47:53):
the divine nature empowers.
the human nature and that the human nature does not take away anything from the divinenature.
all they're doing is like, it's like, which is why Jesus
can be present with us in his body.
Yeah, and which is why even when human authors are writing, they're not making errors.
So I think the whole thing was just like, why are making such an emphasis?
(48:15):
It is a divine book, but it's also a human book.
I'm just like, yeah, but I don't trust this.
I smell a rat here.
And then they made the statement, we believe the Bible is the inspired word of God becauseit proclaims the gospel.
And I was like, there you go.
And I was like, how on earth did this, how did this pass?
How did no one?
(48:36):
in who I don't know who's in charge of with the LC it's Lutheran Church of Lutheran Churchof Missouri Synod.
This is like 10 years ago, nine years ago.
Like how on earth did nobody catch this?
That they're switching the formal principle with the material principle and then what theydo then that introduces gospel.
there were plenty of people who were sounding the alarms when that necessary distinctionsbook came out and that's where they publicized And they were just looked at, oh then
(49:05):
everyone's got to make...
People have to make sure that everyone knows they're not fundamentalists, they're notbiblicists.
I am a biblicist.
I wouldn't call myself a fundamentalist, but of course I'm a biblicist.
Yeah, no, that's...
So that was kind of going off on the other topic.
I guess I'm just more interested in those things.
I think that this is a big fight.
(49:27):
It was the fight 50 years ago.
I think it's a fight that we have to remind people today.
encourage everyone to read J.L.
Porson's book.
explains it very well.
ah But this is something that Lutherans need to understand, that the reason why theLutheran church is the best and is the
(49:49):
visible church on earth, right, is because of our biblical principles of biblicalinterpretation.
And what you're doing is you're having people who are in the Lutheran tradition use becareful that work.
And then but then they are changing around the fundamental, ah you know, the principles ofLutheranism.
(50:12):
So so I wrote like I did a podcast, started a podcast.
Bob's Way podcast.
And the first episode I did was like how Lutherans interpret the Bible.
And the first one was, you know, the formal principle that scripture is the inner word ofGod and source of all teaching.
And the second one is the material principle, the justification by grace to faith alone isthe heart of the gospel and the all doctrine flows in out of it.
(50:43):
Then I said, you know, scripture is clear.
And then I said that
know, magisterial.
a reason must be ministerial, must serve the text instead of ruling over it, which ismagisterial reason.
And then finally, I said, everything has to go back to the institution of what Jesus said.
(51:03):
if we're going to talk about baptism, we go to Jesus Institute in baptism, which is whyit's so important that Mark 16 was written by Mark.
You can't just say, well, it's okay, because Peter writes about it in, in 1 Peter 3.21.
Yeah.
Why did he write about that in 1 Peter 3.21?
Because Jesus said it already as recorded in Mark 16.16.
The idea that Peter would have said that in 1 Peter 3.21 without Jesus first
(51:28):
said it.
we, I guess we don't have time to run down that lane trail about belonging to park, butno, I agree with you.
And I'll just say that it's just annoying that, that so that I just find the whole thingvery annoying.
I mean, if we've one thing though, I wanted to say, uh so formal, and we got to kind ofwrap this up.
(51:53):
Right?
No, that's all right.
No, thanks for being here.
uh
The formal principle and material principle.
So formal principle is scripture.
Right.
And so another way of saying formal principle is the authority.
Right.
On what authority do we say things ah pertain to God?
On the authority of scripture.
The material principle being the gospel, that is the power.
(52:15):
The gospel, as Paul says, is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes.
And you can't have power without authority.
Exactly.
You can't have the authority
I suppose you can have authority without power, then you're just like, you're like saltthat's lost its saltiness.
So you can start with authority, but then if you don't drive it, if you don't uh receiveits actual fulfillment, and that's really how is the gospel the power of God, because it
(52:47):
fulfills the scriptures.
So to say that the Bible is the authority because of
the power of the gospel, and then you're assuming that you know what the power of thegospel is, uh but how do you know what the power of the gospel is apart from the authority
(53:09):
of the scriptures which they fulfill?
Jesus said it was necessary that everything written by Moses and the prophets should befulfilled.
And that is the authority that he uses to
to manifest what he has actually accomplished.
uh The other thing too, when it comes to the two natures, you hear this, the two naturesof Christ correspond to the two natures of scripture being divine and human.
(53:40):
Historically, Lutherans, and Grandpa talks about this in his Inspiration to Scripturebook, a better way to look at it is instead of it being the scriptures have a divine
nature and human nature.
The scriptures are only divine nature, but they have a human form to them.
So it corresponds, rather than corresponding to the incarnation, it corresponds rather tothe humiliation.
(54:05):
It's analogous to the humiliation of Christ.
So just like Jesus, who's in the form of God, took on the form of servant and hid hismajesty so that he would come in meekness, so the Holy Spirit, is third heaven, says
things that are not lawful to be uttered.
who groans with sighs that are too intercedes with sighs that are too deep for words,right?
(54:29):
Yet he condescends to the form of human language.
So it's not that there's a human uh nature to scripture, but it's rather a condescendingto human ears on the part of God out of his grace.
But those words are themselves divine words.
(54:51):
that, you know, it sounds good to a Lutheran who cares about like the two natures ofChrist and the incarnation, stuff like that.
It sounds good to us when we hear, yeah, the Bible kind of corresponds to that.
We were taught this even, you know, I kind of liked it when I first heard it.
And Herman Sasse speaks this way.
And I think a lot of people speak this way of how the scriptures have a human nature anddivine nature.
(55:11):
But this is really this is there's a there's a ploy and the farriest.
I see underneath it all.
to undermine the divine nature of the scripture.
Now, the point that you make though is also a good point.
like, okay, well, even if we are to look at the scriptures as divine and human, what haveyou ever heard of the genus maestaticum, right?
(55:35):
Which is, you know, that the divine, all of the attributes of the divine nature are fullycommunicated to the human nature.
So if we apply that to scripture, as you said, then we would say that
even the human side of scripture is divine, you know.
But yeah.
oh
whole making a long point, certain things you just kind of notice when you're like, Idon't trust this.
(56:01):
So when someone talks for a really long time about the Bible being a human book, I don'ttrust them.
And the reason why I don't trust them is because you don't need to talk more than a coupleof sentences about it because it's obvious.
It's written on paper, ink, it was written by human beings.
And a lot of the time with the Epistles, the name of the person is like the first word inthe letter.
(56:23):
We know it's a human book.
Why are you talking so much about being a human book?
Our point, our job as Christians is to convince people that it's a divine book.
So you don't have to convince anyone it's a human book.
already believes, 100 % of people on earth believe the Bible is a human book.
was not opposed by humans.
(56:46):
What are you doing?
What's your point?
So this is the whole thing.
My father-in-law loves ecumenism and I love my father-in-law.
I think ecumenism is largely a waste of time because I think it is rife with equivocationwhere you're just trying to agree with each other on these points.
(57:09):
And this is the big problem.
Quickly explain what's a humanism.
So ecumenism is the dialogue between different denominations.
So my father-in-law, he was part of ecumenical um efforts between the Lutherans and theRoman Catholics and also the Lutherans and the Anglicans, which is fine.
(57:29):
I don't think that we should talk.
So I'm not trying to throw his life's work away.
But it wasn't like his whole life's But um what my point is that we to be very, verycareful about it.
Because it's like, if I get invited over to dinner,
by my Democrat neighbors, I can have a very, very polite, nice conversation with them andhave a nice dinner with them.
(57:51):
I can do that.
But I'm going to say things that could be interpreted vaguely, right?
I'm gonna say things so that I don't offend or get in a fight with the people who'veinvited me into their homes or their barbecue, whatever it is.
uh
And I think that is just the nature of man.
(58:14):
So when you have these ecumenical things and you're not going to say, Hey, listen, we needto get into politics.
And instead they say, what can we say that we agree with?
I think that it's just rife with uh equivocation, meaning that they're going to try to saythings that both sides can agree on face value, but you're able to hold your private
(58:36):
interpretation of it, ah which doesn't do
any good.
It doesn't help my parents.
That's the whole thing going back to the local, going back to the family.
How does this help my congregation?
How does this help my family?
And I think that's something that we need to be focusing on.
How does this help clarify what is being proclaimed from this pulpit to these people?
(59:01):
Yeah.
Is this going to help my uh parishioners mark and avoid false teachers and find the purefountain of Israel?
Or is it going to make it more difficult for them?
I mean, you take like the like, what am I more annoyed at?
The ELCA or the LCMC?
The LCMC.
(59:21):
So the ELCA, which is the most liberal church body in uh America.
Well, I mean, yeah, for those liberal.
PCC is probably probable.
They deny that the Bible is Word of God, they promote homosexuality and abortion, they saythat Jesus isn't the only way to It is, I can, in 4.8 seconds, uh faster than a linebacker
(59:44):
can run a 40-yard dash.
Yeah, fast, Catholic and Christian, ill-married, I can explain to my members why theyshouldn't communicate in the LCH church.
But the LCMC is like, we're kind conservative.
But, you know, they don't have a statement on communion.
on open or closed communion.
They don't have statements on, know, they'll say they believe in scripture, but then theydon't, you know, they wouldn't pass this, but they don't even talk about that.
(01:00:08):
They don't have a seminary.
They don't have, mean, they are jello against the wall and that's way more difficult.
So you'll have people who go to the congregation, they'll talk.
So I had a communion at this LCMC, but we're not in fellowship with them.
And then it's like a half hour conversation to try and explain.
Yeah.
So
That's why I think we should be very worried about ecumenism or ecumenical dialogues.
(01:00:34):
Yeah, no, I agree.
I agree.
yeah, so I mean, just to kind of wrap all this stuff up, it's important to not avoidthese, whether it's ecumenical dialogues, or it's in the civil estate and political
issues, we shouldn't avoid these things.
(01:00:57):
But we also should guard against this kind of equivocation in both
both of those estates, and especially in the family estate as well, that we have to beable to address these issues without being afraid of being seen as overly political or
overly ecumenical or whatever.
(01:01:20):
But we have to be clear in our confession of what we are saying, what God's Word says inour lives, and what is the goal.
The goal is to be able to confess Christ before men and not be put to shame.
And that really if that's our if that's what we're focused on, then then I think we're onthe right track.
(01:01:45):
uh But also the other thing is we should be willing to like be disappointed.
We should be willing to suffer like Thomas who gets picked on like blessed as he forgreatest is reward in heaven.
Like that's what those are the kind of things that we should be, you know, desiring ourminds should be on those things.
I think...
But just going back to the very fundamentals, again, the fundamentals, right?
(01:02:06):
So we kind of started our conversation, how we talk about how we were libertarians when wewere young and immature in college.
The thing with libertarians is like, could, libertarianism could be right, but not byitself.
And that's kind of the problem with libertarianism.
It's just like, so it's so naked.
And then if it doesn't have Christian formation, it becomes very, very anti-Christian.
(01:02:27):
And you have to have the foundational points.
Scripture is the Word of God.
Christ has commissioned the church to proclaim the gospel, specifically in the narrowsense to all nations.
And that the soul and the family, these are the things that we're concerned about.
(01:02:47):
So why do I care about these political issues?
It's because I care about my family and I care about my soul.
Because that's what God told me to care about.
And that's what Jesus told me to care about.
How would Jesus told me care about these things?
Because it's in Scripture.
But when we start having different starting points, whether that's race, whether that istrying to be uh red-pilled or white-pilled or black-pilled or whatever the other different
(01:03:17):
pills are, you're going to end up with that perpendicular line, even if it is a very, verysmall angle and it looks like you are close.
you're constantly moving farther and farther and farther and farther away ah becauseyou're not actually on the right point.
Yeah, by the way, every time you bump this, it reminds me of that one YouTube video.
(01:03:39):
oh
That was a mess.
This is when you're an air horn.
All right, well thanks James for taking time out of your vacation.
Yeah, thanks for having me out with us.
Yeah, our niece hadn't gotten the stomach bug, I wouldn't even have stopped in.
uh
(01:04:00):
I'm sure she sounds like maybe a 24 hour thing.
I hope so.
We're going camping, so I hope we dodge.
I was saying grape juice.
ah That's what I heard at least.
That's good for communion too.
No it's uh
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