April 30, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode of Christendom and the World, Pastor Andrew Preus sits down with his father, Pastor Rolf Preus, for a candid and personal conversation about their journey through Lutheranism, focusing on their transition from the Missouri Synod to the Evangelical Lutheran Synod (ELS). Together, they explore the theological debates surrounding church authority, the doctrine of the ministry, and the broader implications of these disputes on their faith and church community. The discussion delves into the challenges of maintaining unity among Christians, the necessity of a biblical foundation for church governance, and the ways in which theological divisions shape personal and ecclesiastical life. Ultimately, the episode highlights the enduring importance of doctrinal clarity, faithful church practice, and the pursuit of true Christian unity grounded in Scripture.
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Episode Transcript
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you oh
Welcome back again to Christendom and the World brought to you by Christian News.
I'm Pastor Andrew Price.
Here we have part two of the conversation with my dad where here we get into how my dadleft the Missouri Synod and went into the ELS and his experience there.
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For me, this was one that brings up a lot of memories because I was 10 years old.
when we joined, and then 18 when my dad was kicked out.
so here we talk about the issue of church and ministry and how this played out in the ELSand how we can apply this and react from this today, especially as we consider the many
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wonderful Christians who are in the ELS and in the Wisconsin Synod.
And how we can strive toward unity and, you know, not make it all about our, our, ourgripes and what we think the other person, a person's position is.
Uh, so I hope you enjoy this, uh, shorter conversation and part two, uh, as we discussthe, the, the going, the coming and going of my father.
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Uh, so again, please.
Remember to like and subscribe and share this content wherever you find this podcast.
So grandpa dies in 95, you leave the Missouri Synod in 97.
this is about where my consciousness, I mean, I remember grandpa, I was in second gradewhen he died, but when I was 10, when we moved from
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Racine, Wisconsin to East Grand Forks back to East Grand Forks, Minnesota, and where youjoined the evangelical Lutheran Synod.
And then, so that was 97.
And then 2006, you were kicked out of the ELS.
So that was my senior year of high school.
So probably my most formidable years of my life were in the ELS and then leading up tothat.
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So why did you
joined the ELS and what were you expecting and what did you kind of learn, I guess.
Well, I had become convinced that the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod was what FrancisPeeper would call a heterodox church body because it permitted false doctrine and that I
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didn't want to be in fellowship with it.
ah I wanted to belong to a church body that was Orthodox.
the ELS had one position that did concern me, and that is their doctrine of the Church, ahwhere the Missouri Synod taught and teaches, and I hold, that the form, the visible form
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of the Church is the Christian congregation.
And that's where the word of God is taught in the sacraments of the Holy Spirit.
And the visible form of the ministry is the pastoral office.
because that's the preaching of the gospel administration.
Exactly.
And the Wisconsin Synod, which has had influence over the ELS over the years, holds adifferent view.
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They say that God hasn't established any specific form for the church or the ministry, sothat a Synod is church in the same way as a congregation and that any use of the means of
grace on behalf of the church.
is the ministry, whether you're talking about a Procure School teacher, a pastor, orsomething else.
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The ELS appeared to take the Wisconsin view of the church, which did cause me someconcern.
But then in the final part of their statement on the church, they asserted that the synodwas only advisory with respect to congregations.
And that kind of assured me.
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Okay.
What would have been the concern?
um Why would that be so concerning?
Well, because the uh
What creates what?
Does the synod make the church the church or does the church make the synod the synod?
And my position, which I believe is Missouri position, which is the biblical position, isthat it is the congregations that would then form the larger body and that the larger body
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does not have authority over the congregations beyond what
we say in the Missouri Synod, advisory.
And so I assumed that then that the congregation would not be under the thumb of the Synodwhere the Synod would simply dictate what you're going to do.
Well, as it turned out on that, I was wrong.
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uh the issue actually, uh the time in the ELS was generally quite pleasant.
The congregation in East Grand Forks was nice group of people.
uh
I made some good friends in the ELS.
One of the things that I learned is that the uh
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position against unionism where the Missouri Senate has a kind of a weaker position thanthe Wells and the ELS.
The ELS and the Wells are stricter in not expressing fellowship with errorists, whereas inthe Missouri Senate, you know the problems we have.
You you've got that episode of a district president participating in a prayer service atYankee Stadium that's just totally syncretistic.
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and gets away with it.
Yeah.
And so the Missouri Senate has a tougher time holding to uh the historic position thatwe've held against unionism, which is which is a false fellowship type of a thing.
And the E.L.S.
and the Wells has a stronger position against unionism.
But I thought that would also go along with a stronger commitment to the true doctrine.
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You'd think that those two would go together, but they don't.
And what basically happened is we had a debate on the ministry and there were some thatwanted to get the ELS to adopt the Wisconsin position on the ministry, which basically
says that any form of the office is as divine as any other form of the office and that Goddidn't specifically institute the pastoral office in contradistinction to all other
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offices, but it's simply one among many that
that the church forms at her own guided by the spirit and so forth.
And of course, the Missouri position is that Christ established the pastoral office andthe Wisconsin position was the position that the leadership of the Senate was pushing a
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significant portion of the Senate was resistant to adopting that.
And I can't help but speak out.
And so I spoke out against adopting the Wisconsin position and for
holding on to the historic Lutheran position on this.
And on the ministry debate, my side lost.
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And they adopted a statement in 2005, which was basically the Wisconsin position on theministry.
And I registered my negative vote, as did many others, and I spoke out against it.
I wrote a paper ah
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I should say we had come up with a substitute uh statement, which the uh synod had prettymuch ignored.
so one of the delegates at a previous convention said, we want you to come up with astatement of what's wrong with our version of this.
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And in response, we had writing by the
couple of the leading theologians of the Synod going after the what we called the Circuit8 revision of their statement.
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And uh the powers that be kind of assume that I was behind this, which is not really thecase.
I supported this, but the circuit eight revision was not written by me.
It contained things that I wouldn't have put in there had I written it.
But I supported it because I thought it was a whole lot better than what the the Senateleadership had come up with.
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But anyway, ah in response to
uh what President of the Synod, John Molstead Jr., and a leader at the college, ErlingTigin, uh wrote a criticism of the circuit 8 revision, which turned out to be an attack on
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my theology, as if I were the author of it and attributed to me positions that I simplydidn't hold.
So I wrote a paper called Clarifying the Issues.
in the ELS ministry debate.
And in that paper, I criticized the document that the Senate had just adopted in 2005.
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And uh in that criticism, uh that angered the president of the Senate who told me towithdraw the paper.
And I said, well, I'll gladly correct any errors.
and change anything that's false, contrary to fact or false doctrine or whatever, hewouldn't address it.
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He refused to address the substance of anything I had written.
He just simply said, retract the whole thing.
You're accusing the synod of false doctrine.
And I said, no, I'm not accusing the synod of false doctrine.
I'm saying this is not a good statement.
We shouldn't have a statement.
I criticized a statement.
I'm not accusing anybody of false doctrine.
And he basically said I was.
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So since I had uh in his mind accused a synod of false doctrine, I could hardly remain amember of the synod because you can't belong to a synod that teaches false doctrine.
So he basically suspended me from the synod.
He gave my congregation two weeks to decide whether they wanted to be in the MissouriSynod or in the ELS or have me as their pastor.
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And so I was given no possibility of due process.
Now my congregation wanted to stay in the Senate and so I was, at my call, rescinded inobedience to the President of the Senate.
And when you appealed, the people, some of the, some of the people who were put on theappeals committee were people who had publicly spoken against you in the past.
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had a guy, I mean, I find it just just unbelievable that people would have such a spot.
But they had a guy by the name of Jake Kincaid Smith, who had publicly and personallyattacked me for falsely accusing me of politicking on this issue.
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And now he is chosen after everybody knows he's done.
I mean, this is public.
He's chosen to be on this committee to judge me.
And so naturally I objected to that.
Well, they just dismissed it.
So there wasn't even a pretense of due process.
Not one person involved in it actually thought I was being given due process.
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You may not say the synod is wrong.
You say the synod is wrong, you're out because the synod is the standard of doctrine.
Yeah.
So I came to the sad conclusion that while there many Orthodox Lutheran pastors, goodpious Christians in the ELS, wonderful Christian people, the ELS as an institution is a
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sect where the synod is the norm for doctrine, not the scriptures and confessions.
And I, I would say this today as this is true today, 20 years later as it was then.
Yeah.
So when I was, so I remember I was in middle school when that, and according to myfather-in-law, Roger, you know, he was fighting this, this issue of the ministry for years
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in the nineties.
And so it goes way back.
And I guess you were kind of a latecomer to it, but I remember in 2001, there were thesetheses that were promoting more of the Wisconsin Synod position.
which of course has kind of more of a formless view that you have various forms of theministry that kind of come up by God's direction but are not, Jesus did not institute an
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office in which the incumbent is to preach the gospel and minister the sacraments.
And so I remember learning, starting to learn about this and I was in confirmation classand I was, when I finished my confirmation class, it's about Jacob's age,
that's when they were finally struck down.
And so you did have some victories along the way.
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It was a couple of years later then that this other document came up and then that waspushed through, as you just described.
I remember when I was 16, so this would have been 2004.
And I took my godparents, Katie and Steve had given me a book of concord, a tafford.
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read Book of Concord for my confirmation.
And I put it in my room with all my other stuff and it gathered dust.
And two years later, I picked it up and blew the dust off of it and opened it up andstarted reading it.
And at the time I was thinking about this issue, because you would talk about theministry, the church ministry issue all the time.
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And those are some of my favorite memories of sitting in the back of the Suburban andhearing you talk about all these
passages of Scripture and what they mean, how we apply them, and I'd be just sitting therelistening to you and mom talk.
So anyway, so this is certainly ruminating in my mind as I'm reading the book of Concord.
When I got to the treatise on the power and primacy of the Pope, it was so clear how thereis no rank by divine right among the ministers.
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then in 2000, so that was spring of 2004.
The summer of 2004, James and I took a train to Montana and stayed with Pastor Benson.
Pastor Benson then would give us, he would give us stuff to read and talk abouttheological issues with us.
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He gave us a copy of this document that was put together.
What was it called?
The Public Ministry of the Word or the President's Committee?
document, whatever it was, and we read it and it talked about how you have the full use ofthe keys and then you have the limited use of the keys.
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And immediately reading that, I thought about the treatise on the power and primacy of thepope.
And I thought that it's one thing to say by human rights, by human arrangement, you mighthave a circuit of pastors and one of them is going to do more of the ecclesiastical
supervision.
It's something that's all by divine right entrusted to all of us, but for the sake oforder and fraternal unity, we're going to submit to this arrangement, but that's by human
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arrangement.
divine right, the authority to publicly to preach, teach and minister the sacraments isnot ranked.
It's not part of a hierarchy.
And when I read this, thought, I don't see how this doesn't...
What it does is it confuses human arrangement with divine arrangement.
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And what you end up getting then is this ranking within the ministry of Christ.
Absolutely.
And for me, that was kind of became the main issue.
And it's very ironic too, because the Wisconsin Synod is, they champion that the keysbelong to all the Christians.
And so they want to emphasize...
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that the keys are given to every Christian, which I wholeheartedly agree with.
And this is kind of my point then is that if you're going to say that then, if you'regoing to say that the keys belong not just to me, not just to you, but to Hannah, right?
Or to all my parishioners or all all, all Christians, if you're going to say that, thendon't talk about a limited use of the keys.
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If Hannah is doing, if Hannah forgives Joseph for calling her a dork,
right?
uh Hannah confesses the Gospel, she is fully using the keys, but the point is that she'sin her own station in life.
You don't have to turn the ministry into this kind of...
It was a very unfortunate use of words and I'm wondering whether they don't kind of thosethat came up with that language don't maybe regret it.
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A limited use of the keys.
mean, goodness sakes.
One point I should also make is it has come to my attention that I was accused uh by whomI'm not sure of trying to force my position on the ministry on the ELS.
And the fact of the matter is I
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pleaded with John Molstead Jr.
not to adopt any statement on the ministry at all, because I didn't want anybody'sposition imposed.
You had the problem of both Missouri and Wisconsin positions held by members of the ELS.
They had been able to live together with this for years.
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Let's just be brothers and talk this through.
It was the Synod leadership that forced
the Wells position on the rest of us and then claimed I was trying to force the Missouriposition on them.
That's just a plain falsehood.
I don't know who originally originated that falsehood, but has to be said because what itdoes is, it the, the, the issue is not just the ministry.
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The issue is a
an abuse of churchly authority.
Yeah.
That churchly authority has to be biblical confessional.
It cannot, we cannot just simply give ourselves power that God hasn't given us.
And I say the same for the pastor.
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ah Well, pastor, why are we doing it this way?
Well, because I decided.
Well, well, but I think, who's the pastor here?
You or me?
Yeah, sure.
And the parishioner would say, but pastor.
Where do you get this authority?
And every pastor should know the only authority I have is this is the Word of God here.
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You can see for yourself.
And when you can't do it and you repeatedly ask, show us, show us, show us one singleexample in the Bible of a limited use of the keys.
Show us where a school teacher is in the ministry of the word.
Show us from the Bible.
Show us.
Can't do it, but
This is our doctrine.
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have to say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not going to submit to that.
Well, it's, yeah, the trouble with it then is that you can, if, if, theology is looked atfrom the standpoint of we have our position, you have your position and we're fighting for
our position, um, rather than what does the Bible say and let's leave it at that and let'sactually continue to talk about what the Bible says, um, so that we can, uh, strive for
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unity in that.
when it gets politicized, whether on a big scale or small scale, you end up necessarily uhmisrepresenting the others' view.
also, if I say a parochial school teacher is not the same, is not in the public ministryas what Jesus established when he sent out his apostles, immediately the assumption is
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that I have a
low view of the parochial school teacher, which I don't have a low view of the parochialschool teacher.
My, my kids go to a parochial school and I'm very thankful for the, for the service thatthey give.
Speaking as a father and a pastor, okay, so I was a pastor and I've been a father and Iknow I've even taught at Procure School.
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So what I taught, was I teaching uh more as a father or more as a pastor?
Well, I guarantee you Procure School is a father.
It's a mother.
That's why we send, we trust you guys because this is the way we would teach them, but wealso have other things to have.
that we have to do and we can't hours a day teaching.
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And that's why if we can speak about the ministry as belonging to the whole church, and soin the sense that we all uh have a share in the ministry by virtue of being Christians in
our own stations in life, I notice that a lot of...
One thing I find interesting is that...
If a Missouri Synod pastor is talking to another Missouri Synod pastor, he might ask, howlong have you been in the ministry?
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If a Wells pastor is talking to another Wells pastor, he'll ask, how long have you been inministry?
Right?
And I've noticed the same thing with, uh, parochial school teachers.
They'll ask, how long have you been in ministry?
And it's, it's kind of interesting, but here's the issue though, is that for me, itdoesn't...
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The main thing for me for a parochial school teacher is that that parochial school teacheris devoted to uh the same thing that I as a father am devoted to in training that child up
with the word of God to be able to think with good discipline and those things that areincredibly important.
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As a pastor, my job as a pastor is not to help you raise your kids.
my job, I mean I might, what I'm do is I'm gonna teach both young and old.
But my job as a pastor is not really discipline.
I might have some discipline in my confirmation class and stuff, or if I do teach in theclassroom I'll administer some discipline, but the disciplinarian part, which is so
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important, is really coming out of the parental office.
Absolutely.
As a pastor, uh may, depending on how effective you are, how much the people respect youor whatever, a pastor can just simply say, let's do this and they're going to do it.
But it's more a matter of uh just showing respect and trusting your good judgment and soforth.
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Whereas the teacher in the classroom says, this is your assignment.
I want you to do this and turn it in.
And I want to give you an A, B, C, or F.
Pastors don't treat their parishioners that way.
can't.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and, and what, mean, I've obviously been thinking about this issue, uh, since I was ateenager.
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Um, and so one thing that's come to mind is if there's overlap between these variousstations in the church, the, the public ministry of the preaching, the preacher, and then
you have, you have your teachers who are, you know, you can say, okay, are they, more
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kind of derived from the home.
Some will say they're auxiliary to the public ministry.
I suppose in a sense, everyone's auxiliary to like when you go out in your daily stationin life and confess the gospel, you're supporting the office that has been publicly
entrusted to me to preach it, right?
So in a sense, could say, what I finally concluded is that there's overlap and
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that's not a bad thing.
It's not like we need to make everything, as long as we understand that the publicministry, which is the common possession of the whole church, but also has incumbents who
are to be placed in that public ministry, that that public ministry is to preach thegospel, to baptize, forgive and retain sins, administer the Lord's Supper, preach the
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gospel, and minister to sacraments.
simply understand that that is what the public ministry is, and those who are called tothat public ministry have the responsibility from God to do that thing.
And that might have different arrangements depending on the situation.
And you you might have two pastors, you might have, you know, administrative things thatsomeone does, you know, someone might focus more on the teaching part or whatever.
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Fine.
But if we can just agree that the ministry, the public ministry, is that, it is to preachthe gospel and minister the sacraments, and any other kind of arrangements that the Church
might in her freedom come up with are in freedom and are matters of human arrangement.
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And I think that that would at least bring us a long way, and also to maintain that
You know, I think the Wisconsin Synod rightly does emphasize that the keys belong to thewhole church.
And I say a hearty amen to that.
uh anyway, I mean, it's that we could go on and on about this issue.
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I will say that you mentioned all these good pious people in the ELS.
Yeah, I mean, some of my best friends to this day are still uh
in the ELS or at least have very close connections to the ELS.
So I think that one of the takeaways that I get from this whole conversation is it's notjust that, well, my family doesn't like synods.
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We kind of jump around from different synods, but I think the point is that whether ittakes on the form of a conservative or liberal or moderate kind of theological
outlook, you can't rely upon synodical structures to be orthodox.
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No, they change.
change like and then Little Norwegian Synod is a perfect example.
If you were to take a look at the Little Norwegian Synod when it was founded in 1918, itwas Missouri.
You got Missouri, Norwegian Synod, Wisconsin Synod.
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It was it was 100 percent Missouri.
That's 1918.
And then as time goes on, 1955, the break.
Where were they there?
on church and ministry in 1955, when, when the little Norwegian synod broke with Missouri,they were primarily Missouri flash forward 50 years, 2005, and finally they've become
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wealth.
So it took generations for this Norwegian synod to go from holding the Missouri positionto the Wisconsin position.
And, and if you want to look at my whole
role in this is kind of like a kind of like a symbol of we are Wisconsin now.
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Yeah.
Because the Missouri position is no longer going to be tolerated.
And even the Wisconsin, this is another issue that we don't have time to get into, buteven the Wisconsin position is, if you compare the early Wauwatosans, when I actually read
what they write, I sympathize a lot more with them, even though I don't agree with a lotof their conclusions.
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But you have things like the church growth movement, bringing...
this obsession with public relations and marketing that kind of overwhelms the churchesand the schools going on both in Missouri Synod and in the Wisconsin Synod.
And the final product that you get is this very company-like, uh kind of watered down inits theology, but still sort of conservative in its public brand.
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It's, mean, that would take a while to unpack, but even the wells, like I talk about how,at what point, this would be a good discussion.
We affectionately refer to the wells as the wells, you know, like excited, hey, you know,like come to the wells, you know, at what point did wells go from W E L S to W E L S
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exclamation mark.
Right.
When did that happen?
Sort of like the Wellstone bumper stickers, know, Wellstone, you know.
Anyway, I'm going far off a field with that, but that there is a certain there's a kind ofcompany man bug, a pragmatic business marketing kind of spirit that really took a hold of
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the Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Synod, EOS and.
And you know, something that we need to mention too, uh because to be even handed here andpoint out uh that the Missouri Synod has veered off, whereas the ELS and the Wells have
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moved away from Walther in one direction.
The Missouri Synod had to have to admit it has moved away from Walther in anotherdirection.
And when these pastors claim to have pastor authority that doesn't belong to the church, Imean, I've even heard it said that a layman can tell you that your sins are forgiven
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through faith in Jesus, but a layman cannot forgive you your sins the way a pastor can.
And I've heard Missouri, and this is really bad stuff.
so,
And those in the Wisconsin Senate who see this happening, we who hold to the teaching ofWalther need to assure our brothers in the wells, listen, this isn't where we are.
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Yeah.
And and so, you know, you got to the the dog, the little dog and the big dog, either one'sgoing to bite you and you got to be prepared for either one.
when I was in seminary, what people would say is, when you become a pastor, get yourself afather confessor, which we don't have to get into that.
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what I say to people is, I say to my Missouri Synod friends, say, who are pastors, said,get yourself a Wells friend.
Because when I got into the ministry, ah I found out there was a Wells church across theriver.
I got in touch with them.
We quickly became very good friends.
Dan Nauman, he's up in northern Wisconsin, our central Wisconsin, Wausau area.
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Anyway, when we first talked, one of the first times we talked, I'm thinking of the kindof various forms of the ministry part of the debate.
He's thinking of the, uh you know, the kind of quasi-semi-sacerdotalist view.
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of the minister that somehow the minister has by virtue of having the office is able togive an effective means of grace or, or, uh, uh, absolution, right?
That kind of, uh, so he sees that.
And so we start talking to each other and I find that he, he recognizes that now we didn'tfully agree on every little thing, but
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I see that he has a very, very strong view of the pastoral office and that what his job,his call from God is to preach to the God.
going to find a lot of consensus with uh these Wells guys or these Missouri guys thatactually read the Confessions.
There's not much difference between us.
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And so that's where I think the future is looking at towards the future is we have toreclaim our common roots.
Because the Wells, I mean, yeah, mean, this formless business goes
results in some crazy stuff.
But on the other hand, this Missouri, which you refer to as Sassord-Odellism, that's a,that's a problem.
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I think that there is a pushback in the Missouri Synod on that.
There are some people who've kind of gotten wise about it and were going too far and getbrought back.
But yeah, I just remember Dan saying, we had been talking for over an hour and he waslike, so what do we disagree on?
I was like, well,
Well, you just said something a while ago that interests me because you graduated from theseminary what year?
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2013.
Okay.
So I graduated in 1979 and you said, they said to you, find yourself a father confessor.
Yeah.
Nobody ever said that to me.
Yeah.
That's when I think of confession, I think of this may sound a little bit on Lutheran, butMark Twain, he wasn't a Lutheran.
Yeah.
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Confession is good for the soul, but bad for the reputation.
Now I would, I would argue that that wisdom is
part of the reason people don't go to private confession.
They don't trust that the pastor is going to keep his mouth shut.
It's a part of the reason why people don't go to church.
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mean, I think most people don't go to church because they just have a, they, it's, it'sunbelief, you know, that it's, they have a problem.
But once in a while you meet someone and you're like, is it because every time you go tochurch, you never hear the gospel?
No.
can tell them.
anyway, I mean, I, that is, yeah, that's, I, that's a good point.
Um, and yeah, that's another issue of private confession.
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I'll only say our confessions, our Lutheran confessions say that the
the private manner of it ah is by human right.
And what is by divine right is that you confess your sins and you receive absolution.
well, I think that we can call it a day now.
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I probably got to go do something else here in about an hour.
So ah we might, maybe we have time to have a little cigar before ah the ladies Biblestudy.
Oh, I don't think they'll smell it on me, will they?
Well, Whatever.
You can have a smoke as a pastor when it comes to tobacco and alcohol.
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Tobacco you can have, but alcohol is only after you're done doing all the pastor stuff forthe day.
That's right.
What about firearms?
you can take them anywhere except some nursing homes won't let you bring the firearms in.
Well, they say that have that sign at the nursing home, no firearms permitted.
And then you got these criminals coming up there and they see that.
(37:23):
Sign won't let us go in.
Why haven't you robbed the bank you haven't done what we talked about
Yeah, yeah
All right.
Well, thanks for, thanks for the chat, dad.
This was, And we'll keep talking later.
(37:45):
It just won't be on camera.
So, thank you again for tuning in here and we will see you next week.
Remember to like, and subscribe and share wherever you find this podcast.
you
you oh
Welcome back again to Christendom and the World brought to you by Christian News.
I'm Pastor Andrew Price.
Here we have part two of the conversation with my dad where here we get into how my dadleft the Missouri Synod and went into the ELS and his experience there.
(00:24):
For me, this was one that brings up a lot of memories because I was 10 years old.
when we joined, and then 18 when my dad was kicked out.
so here we talk about the issue of church and ministry and how this played out in the ELSand how we can apply this and react from this today, especially as we consider the many
(00:56):
wonderful Christians who are in the ELS and in the Wisconsin Synod.
And how we can strive toward unity and, you know, not make it all about our, our, ourgripes and what we think the other person, a person's position is.
Uh, so I hope you enjoy this, uh, shorter conversation and part two, uh, as we discussthe, the, the going, the coming and going of my father.
(01:25):
Uh, so again, please.
Remember to like and subscribe and share this content wherever you find this podcast.
So grandpa dies in 95, you leave the Missouri Synod in 97.
this is about where my consciousness, I mean, I remember grandpa, I was in second gradewhen he died, but when I was 10, when we moved from
(01:57):
Racine, Wisconsin to East Grand Forks back to East Grand Forks, Minnesota, and where youjoined the evangelical Lutheran Synod.
And then, so that was 97.
And then 2006, you were kicked out of the ELS.
So that was my senior year of high school.
So probably my most formidable years of my life were in the ELS and then leading up tothat.
(02:22):
So why did you
joined the ELS and what were you expecting and what did you kind of learn, I guess.
Well, I had become convinced that the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod was what FrancisPeeper would call a heterodox church body because it permitted false doctrine and that I
(02:56):
didn't want to be in fellowship with it.
ah I wanted to belong to a church body that was Orthodox.
the ELS had one position that did concern me, and that is their doctrine of the Church, ahwhere the Missouri Synod taught and teaches, and I hold, that the form, the visible form
(03:28):
of the Church is the Christian congregation.
And that's where the word of God is taught in the sacraments of the Holy Spirit.
And the visible form of the ministry is the pastoral office.
because that's the preaching of the gospel administration.
Exactly.
And the Wisconsin Synod, which has had influence over the ELS over the years, holds adifferent view.
(03:55):
They say that God hasn't established any specific form for the church or the ministry, sothat a Synod is church in the same way as a congregation and that any use of the means of
grace on behalf of the church.
is the ministry, whether you're talking about a Procure School teacher, a pastor, orsomething else.
(04:22):
The ELS appeared to take the Wisconsin view of the church, which did cause me someconcern.
But then in the final part of their statement on the church, they asserted that the synodwas only advisory with respect to congregations.
And that kind of assured me.
(04:42):
Okay.
What would have been the concern?
um Why would that be so concerning?
Well, because the uh
What creates what?
Does the synod make the church the church or does the church make the synod the synod?
And my position, which I believe is Missouri position, which is the biblical position, isthat it is the congregations that would then form the larger body and that the larger body
(05:17):
does not have authority over the congregations beyond what
we say in the Missouri Synod, advisory.
And so I assumed that then that the congregation would not be under the thumb of the Synodwhere the Synod would simply dictate what you're going to do.
Well, as it turned out on that, I was wrong.
(05:38):
uh the issue actually, uh the time in the ELS was generally quite pleasant.
The congregation in East Grand Forks was nice group of people.
uh
I made some good friends in the ELS.
One of the things that I learned is that the uh
(06:06):
position against unionism where the Missouri Senate has a kind of a weaker position thanthe Wells and the ELS.
The ELS and the Wells are stricter in not expressing fellowship with errorists, whereas inthe Missouri Senate, you know the problems we have.
You you've got that episode of a district president participating in a prayer service atYankee Stadium that's just totally syncretistic.
(06:36):
and gets away with it.
Yeah.
And so the Missouri Senate has a tougher time holding to uh the historic position thatwe've held against unionism, which is which is a false fellowship type of a thing.
And the E.L.S.
and the Wells has a stronger position against unionism.
But I thought that would also go along with a stronger commitment to the true doctrine.
(07:01):
You'd think that those two would go together, but they don't.
And what basically happened is we had a debate on the ministry and there were some thatwanted to get the ELS to adopt the Wisconsin position on the ministry, which basically
says that any form of the office is as divine as any other form of the office and that Goddidn't specifically institute the pastoral office in contradistinction to all other
(07:30):
offices, but it's simply one among many that
that the church forms at her own guided by the spirit and so forth.
And of course, the Missouri position is that Christ established the pastoral office andthe Wisconsin position was the position that the leadership of the Senate was pushing a
(07:50):
significant portion of the Senate was resistant to adopting that.
And I can't help but speak out.
And so I spoke out against adopting the Wisconsin position and for
holding on to the historic Lutheran position on this.
And on the ministry debate, my side lost.
(08:13):
And they adopted a statement in 2005, which was basically the Wisconsin position on theministry.
And I registered my negative vote, as did many others, and I spoke out against it.
I wrote a paper ah
(08:33):
I should say we had come up with a substitute uh statement, which the uh synod had prettymuch ignored.
so one of the delegates at a previous convention said, we want you to come up with astatement of what's wrong with our version of this.
(08:58):
And in response, we had writing by the
couple of the leading theologians of the Synod going after the what we called the Circuit8 revision of their statement.
(09:18):
And uh the powers that be kind of assume that I was behind this, which is not really thecase.
I supported this, but the circuit eight revision was not written by me.
It contained things that I wouldn't have put in there had I written it.
But I supported it because I thought it was a whole lot better than what the the Senateleadership had come up with.
(09:44):
But anyway, ah in response to
uh what President of the Synod, John Molstead Jr., and a leader at the college, ErlingTigin, uh wrote a criticism of the circuit 8 revision, which turned out to be an attack on
(10:05):
my theology, as if I were the author of it and attributed to me positions that I simplydidn't hold.
So I wrote a paper called Clarifying the Issues.
in the ELS ministry debate.
And in that paper, I criticized the document that the Senate had just adopted in 2005.
(10:27):
And uh in that criticism, uh that angered the president of the Senate who told me towithdraw the paper.
And I said, well, I'll gladly correct any errors.
and change anything that's false, contrary to fact or false doctrine or whatever, hewouldn't address it.
(10:54):
He refused to address the substance of anything I had written.
He just simply said, retract the whole thing.
You're accusing the synod of false doctrine.
And I said, no, I'm not accusing the synod of false doctrine.
I'm saying this is not a good statement.
We shouldn't have a statement.
I criticized a statement.
I'm not accusing anybody of false doctrine.
And he basically said I was.
(11:14):
So since I had uh in his mind accused a synod of false doctrine, I could hardly remain amember of the synod because you can't belong to a synod that teaches false doctrine.
So he basically suspended me from the synod.
He gave my congregation two weeks to decide whether they wanted to be in the MissouriSynod or in the ELS or have me as their pastor.
(11:37):
And so I was given no possibility of due process.
Now my congregation wanted to stay in the Senate and so I was, at my call, rescinded inobedience to the President of the Senate.
And when you appealed, the people, some of the, some of the people who were put on theappeals committee were people who had publicly spoken against you in the past.
(12:01):
had a guy, I mean, I find it just just unbelievable that people would have such a spot.
But they had a guy by the name of Jake Kincaid Smith, who had publicly and personallyattacked me for falsely accusing me of politicking on this issue.
(12:21):
And now he is chosen after everybody knows he's done.
I mean, this is public.
He's chosen to be on this committee to judge me.
And so naturally I objected to that.
Well, they just dismissed it.
So there wasn't even a pretense of due process.
Not one person involved in it actually thought I was being given due process.
(12:46):
You may not say the synod is wrong.
You say the synod is wrong, you're out because the synod is the standard of doctrine.
Yeah.
So I came to the sad conclusion that while there many Orthodox Lutheran pastors, goodpious Christians in the ELS, wonderful Christian people, the ELS as an institution is a
(13:11):
sect where the synod is the norm for doctrine, not the scriptures and confessions.
And I, I would say this today as this is true today, 20 years later as it was then.
Yeah.
So when I was, so I remember I was in middle school when that, and according to myfather-in-law, Roger, you know, he was fighting this, this issue of the ministry for years
(13:40):
in the nineties.
And so it goes way back.
And I guess you were kind of a latecomer to it, but I remember in 2001, there were thesetheses that were promoting more of the Wisconsin Synod position.
which of course has kind of more of a formless view that you have various forms of theministry that kind of come up by God's direction but are not, Jesus did not institute an
(14:09):
office in which the incumbent is to preach the gospel and minister the sacraments.
And so I remember learning, starting to learn about this and I was in confirmation classand I was, when I finished my confirmation class, it's about Jacob's age,
that's when they were finally struck down.
And so you did have some victories along the way.
(14:31):
It was a couple of years later then that this other document came up and then that waspushed through, as you just described.
I remember when I was 16, so this would have been 2004.
And I took my godparents, Katie and Steve had given me a book of concord, a tafford.
(14:53):
read Book of Concord for my confirmation.
And I put it in my room with all my other stuff and it gathered dust.
And two years later, I picked it up and blew the dust off of it and opened it up andstarted reading it.
And at the time I was thinking about this issue, because you would talk about theministry, the church ministry issue all the time.
(15:14):
And those are some of my favorite memories of sitting in the back of the Suburban andhearing you talk about all these
passages of Scripture and what they mean, how we apply them, and I'd be just sitting therelistening to you and mom talk.
So anyway, so this is certainly ruminating in my mind as I'm reading the book of Concord.
When I got to the treatise on the power and primacy of the Pope, it was so clear how thereis no rank by divine right among the ministers.
(15:47):
then in 2000, so that was spring of 2004.
The summer of 2004, James and I took a train to Montana and stayed with Pastor Benson.
Pastor Benson then would give us, he would give us stuff to read and talk abouttheological issues with us.
(16:08):
He gave us a copy of this document that was put together.
What was it called?
The Public Ministry of the Word or the President's Committee?
document, whatever it was, and we read it and it talked about how you have the full use ofthe keys and then you have the limited use of the keys.
(16:31):
And immediately reading that, I thought about the treatise on the power and primacy of thepope.
And I thought that it's one thing to say by human rights, by human arrangement, you mighthave a circuit of pastors and one of them is going to do more of the ecclesiastical
supervision.
It's something that's all by divine right entrusted to all of us, but for the sake oforder and fraternal unity, we're going to submit to this arrangement, but that's by human
(16:59):
arrangement.
divine right, the authority to publicly to preach, teach and minister the sacraments isnot ranked.
It's not part of a hierarchy.
And when I read this, thought, I don't see how this doesn't...
What it does is it confuses human arrangement with divine arrangement.
(17:21):
And what you end up getting then is this ranking within the ministry of Christ.
Absolutely.
And for me, that was kind of became the main issue.
And it's very ironic too, because the Wisconsin Synod is, they champion that the keysbelong to all the Christians.
And so they want to emphasize...
(17:44):
that the keys are given to every Christian, which I wholeheartedly agree with.
And this is kind of my point then is that if you're going to say that then, if you'regoing to say that the keys belong not just to me, not just to you, but to Hannah, right?
Or to all my parishioners or all all, all Christians, if you're going to say that, thendon't talk about a limited use of the keys.
(18:05):
If Hannah is doing, if Hannah forgives Joseph for calling her a dork,
right?
uh Hannah confesses the Gospel, she is fully using the keys, but the point is that she'sin her own station in life.
You don't have to turn the ministry into this kind of...
It was a very unfortunate use of words and I'm wondering whether they don't kind of thosethat came up with that language don't maybe regret it.
(18:33):
A limited use of the keys.
mean, goodness sakes.
One point I should also make is it has come to my attention that I was accused uh by whomI'm not sure of trying to force my position on the ministry on the ELS.
And the fact of the matter is I
(18:53):
pleaded with John Molstead Jr.
not to adopt any statement on the ministry at all, because I didn't want anybody'sposition imposed.
You had the problem of both Missouri and Wisconsin positions held by members of the ELS.
They had been able to live together with this for years.
(19:15):
Let's just be brothers and talk this through.
It was the Synod leadership that forced
the Wells position on the rest of us and then claimed I was trying to force the Missouriposition on them.
That's just a plain falsehood.
I don't know who originally originated that falsehood, but has to be said because what itdoes is, it the, the, the issue is not just the ministry.
(19:44):
The issue is a
an abuse of churchly authority.
Yeah.
That churchly authority has to be biblical confessional.
It cannot, we cannot just simply give ourselves power that God hasn't given us.
And I say the same for the pastor.
(20:04):
ah Well, pastor, why are we doing it this way?
Well, because I decided.
Well, well, but I think, who's the pastor here?
You or me?
Yeah, sure.
And the parishioner would say, but pastor.
Where do you get this authority?
And every pastor should know the only authority I have is this is the Word of God here.
(20:25):
You can see for yourself.
And when you can't do it and you repeatedly ask, show us, show us, show us one singleexample in the Bible of a limited use of the keys.
Show us where a school teacher is in the ministry of the word.
Show us from the Bible.
Show us.
Can't do it, but
This is our doctrine.
(20:46):
have to say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not going to submit to that.
Well, it's, yeah, the trouble with it then is that you can, if, if, theology is looked atfrom the standpoint of we have our position, you have your position and we're fighting for
our position, um, rather than what does the Bible say and let's leave it at that and let'sactually continue to talk about what the Bible says, um, so that we can, uh, strive for
(21:17):
unity in that.
when it gets politicized, whether on a big scale or small scale, you end up necessarily uhmisrepresenting the others' view.
also, if I say a parochial school teacher is not the same, is not in the public ministryas what Jesus established when he sent out his apostles, immediately the assumption is
(21:47):
that I have a
low view of the parochial school teacher, which I don't have a low view of the parochialschool teacher.
My, my kids go to a parochial school and I'm very thankful for the, for the service thatthey give.
Speaking as a father and a pastor, okay, so I was a pastor and I've been a father and Iknow I've even taught at Procure School.
(22:10):
So what I taught, was I teaching uh more as a father or more as a pastor?
Well, I guarantee you Procure School is a father.
It's a mother.
That's why we send, we trust you guys because this is the way we would teach them, but wealso have other things to have.
that we have to do and we can't hours a day teaching.
(22:34):
And that's why if we can speak about the ministry as belonging to the whole church, and soin the sense that we all uh have a share in the ministry by virtue of being Christians in
our own stations in life, I notice that a lot of...
One thing I find interesting is that...
If a Missouri Synod pastor is talking to another Missouri Synod pastor, he might ask, howlong have you been in the ministry?
(23:01):
If a Wells pastor is talking to another Wells pastor, he'll ask, how long have you been inministry?
Right?
And I've noticed the same thing with, uh, parochial school teachers.
They'll ask, how long have you been in ministry?
And it's, it's kind of interesting, but here's the issue though, is that for me, itdoesn't...
(23:22):
The main thing for me for a parochial school teacher is that that parochial school teacheris devoted to uh the same thing that I as a father am devoted to in training that child up
with the word of God to be able to think with good discipline and those things that areincredibly important.
(23:44):
As a pastor, my job as a pastor is not to help you raise your kids.
my job, I mean I might, what I'm do is I'm gonna teach both young and old.
But my job as a pastor is not really discipline.
I might have some discipline in my confirmation class and stuff, or if I do teach in theclassroom I'll administer some discipline, but the disciplinarian part, which is so
(24:10):
important, is really coming out of the parental office.
Absolutely.
As a pastor, uh may, depending on how effective you are, how much the people respect youor whatever, a pastor can just simply say, let's do this and they're going to do it.
But it's more a matter of uh just showing respect and trusting your good judgment and soforth.
(24:37):
Whereas the teacher in the classroom says, this is your assignment.
I want you to do this and turn it in.
And I want to give you an A, B, C, or F.
Pastors don't treat their parishioners that way.
can't.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and, and what, mean, I've obviously been thinking about this issue, uh, since I was ateenager.
(24:57):
Um, and so one thing that's come to mind is if there's overlap between these variousstations in the church, the, the public ministry of the preaching, the preacher, and then
you have, you have your teachers who are, you know, you can say, okay, are they, more
(25:18):
kind of derived from the home.
Some will say they're auxiliary to the public ministry.
I suppose in a sense, everyone's auxiliary to like when you go out in your daily stationin life and confess the gospel, you're supporting the office that has been publicly
entrusted to me to preach it, right?
So in a sense, could say, what I finally concluded is that there's overlap and
(25:45):
that's not a bad thing.
It's not like we need to make everything, as long as we understand that the publicministry, which is the common possession of the whole church, but also has incumbents who
are to be placed in that public ministry, that that public ministry is to preach thegospel, to baptize, forgive and retain sins, administer the Lord's Supper, preach the
(26:09):
gospel, and minister to sacraments.
simply understand that that is what the public ministry is, and those who are called tothat public ministry have the responsibility from God to do that thing.
And that might have different arrangements depending on the situation.
And you you might have two pastors, you might have, you know, administrative things thatsomeone does, you know, someone might focus more on the teaching part or whatever.
(26:36):
Fine.
But if we can just agree that the ministry, the public ministry, is that, it is to preachthe gospel and minister the sacraments, and any other kind of arrangements that the Church
might in her freedom come up with are in freedom and are matters of human arrangement.
(26:57):
And I think that that would at least bring us a long way, and also to maintain that
You know, I think the Wisconsin Synod rightly does emphasize that the keys belong to thewhole church.
And I say a hearty amen to that.
uh anyway, I mean, it's that we could go on and on about this issue.
(27:21):
I will say that you mentioned all these good pious people in the ELS.
Yeah, I mean, some of my best friends to this day are still uh
in the ELS or at least have very close connections to the ELS.
So I think that one of the takeaways that I get from this whole conversation is it's notjust that, well, my family doesn't like synods.
(27:49):
We kind of jump around from different synods, but I think the point is that whether ittakes on the form of a conservative or liberal or moderate kind of theological
outlook, you can't rely upon synodical structures to be orthodox.
(28:14):
No, they change.
change like and then Little Norwegian Synod is a perfect example.
If you were to take a look at the Little Norwegian Synod when it was founded in 1918, itwas Missouri.
You got Missouri, Norwegian Synod, Wisconsin Synod.
(28:34):
It was it was 100 percent Missouri.
That's 1918.
And then as time goes on, 1955, the break.
Where were they there?
on church and ministry in 1955, when, when the little Norwegian synod broke with Missouri,they were primarily Missouri flash forward 50 years, 2005, and finally they've become
(28:58):
wealth.
So it took generations for this Norwegian synod to go from holding the Missouri positionto the Wisconsin position.
And, and if you want to look at my whole
role in this is kind of like a kind of like a symbol of we are Wisconsin now.
(29:20):
Yeah.
Because the Missouri position is no longer going to be tolerated.
And even the Wisconsin, this is another issue that we don't have time to get into, buteven the Wisconsin position is, if you compare the early Wauwatosans, when I actually read
what they write, I sympathize a lot more with them, even though I don't agree with a lotof their conclusions.
(29:43):
But you have things like the church growth movement, bringing...
this obsession with public relations and marketing that kind of overwhelms the churchesand the schools going on both in Missouri Synod and in the Wisconsin Synod.
And the final product that you get is this very company-like, uh kind of watered down inits theology, but still sort of conservative in its public brand.
(30:18):
It's, mean, that would take a while to unpack, but even the wells, like I talk about how,at what point, this would be a good discussion.
We affectionately refer to the wells as the wells, you know, like excited, hey, you know,like come to the wells, you know, at what point did wells go from W E L S to W E L S
(30:46):
exclamation mark.
Right.
When did that happen?
Sort of like the Wellstone bumper stickers, know, Wellstone, you know.
Anyway, I'm going far off a field with that, but that there is a certain there's a kind ofcompany man bug, a pragmatic business marketing kind of spirit that really took a hold of
(31:11):
the Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Synod, EOS and.
And you know, something that we need to mention too, uh because to be even handed here andpoint out uh that the Missouri Synod has veered off, whereas the ELS and the Wells have
(31:33):
moved away from Walther in one direction.
The Missouri Synod had to have to admit it has moved away from Walther in anotherdirection.
And when these pastors claim to have pastor authority that doesn't belong to the church, Imean, I've even heard it said that a layman can tell you that your sins are forgiven
(31:58):
through faith in Jesus, but a layman cannot forgive you your sins the way a pastor can.
And I've heard Missouri, and this is really bad stuff.
so,
And those in the Wisconsin Senate who see this happening, we who hold to the teaching ofWalther need to assure our brothers in the wells, listen, this isn't where we are.
(32:24):
Yeah.
And and so, you know, you got to the the dog, the little dog and the big dog, either one'sgoing to bite you and you got to be prepared for either one.
when I was in seminary, what people would say is, when you become a pastor, get yourself afather confessor, which we don't have to get into that.
(32:45):
what I say to people is, I say to my Missouri Synod friends, say, who are pastors, said,get yourself a Wells friend.
Because when I got into the ministry, ah I found out there was a Wells church across theriver.
I got in touch with them.
We quickly became very good friends.
Dan Nauman, he's up in northern Wisconsin, our central Wisconsin, Wausau area.
(33:10):
Anyway, when we first talked, one of the first times we talked, I'm thinking of the kindof various forms of the ministry part of the debate.
He's thinking of the, uh you know, the kind of quasi-semi-sacerdotalist view.
(33:32):
of the minister that somehow the minister has by virtue of having the office is able togive an effective means of grace or, or, uh, uh, absolution, right?
That kind of, uh, so he sees that.
And so we start talking to each other and I find that he, he recognizes that now we didn'tfully agree on every little thing, but
(34:01):
I see that he has a very, very strong view of the pastoral office and that what his job,his call from God is to preach to the God.
going to find a lot of consensus with uh these Wells guys or these Missouri guys thatactually read the Confessions.
There's not much difference between us.
(34:23):
And so that's where I think the future is looking at towards the future is we have toreclaim our common roots.
Because the Wells, I mean, yeah, mean, this formless business goes
results in some crazy stuff.
But on the other hand, this Missouri, which you refer to as Sassord-Odellism, that's a,that's a problem.
(34:49):
I think that there is a pushback in the Missouri Synod on that.
There are some people who've kind of gotten wise about it and were going too far and getbrought back.
But yeah, I just remember Dan saying, we had been talking for over an hour and he waslike, so what do we disagree on?
I was like, well,
Well, you just said something a while ago that interests me because you graduated from theseminary what year?
(35:13):
2013.
Okay.
So I graduated in 1979 and you said, they said to you, find yourself a father confessor.
Yeah.
Nobody ever said that to me.
Yeah.
That's when I think of confession, I think of this may sound a little bit on Lutheran, butMark Twain, he wasn't a Lutheran.
Yeah.
(35:33):
Confession is good for the soul, but bad for the reputation.
Now I would, I would argue that that wisdom is
part of the reason people don't go to private confession.
They don't trust that the pastor is going to keep his mouth shut.
It's a part of the reason why people don't go to church.
(35:54):
mean, I think most people don't go to church because they just have a, they, it's, it'sunbelief, you know, that it's, they have a problem.
But once in a while you meet someone and you're like, is it because every time you go tochurch, you never hear the gospel?
No.
can tell them.
anyway, I mean, I, that is, yeah, that's, I, that's a good point.
Um, and yeah, that's another issue of private confession.
(36:17):
I'll only say our confessions, our Lutheran confessions say that the
the private manner of it ah is by human right.
And what is by divine right is that you confess your sins and you receive absolution.
well, I think that we can call it a day now.
(36:38):
I probably got to go do something else here in about an hour.
So ah we might, maybe we have time to have a little cigar before ah the ladies Biblestudy.
Oh, I don't think they'll smell it on me, will they?
Well, Whatever.
You can have a smoke as a pastor when it comes to tobacco and alcohol.
(37:00):
Tobacco you can have, but alcohol is only after you're done doing all the pastor stuff forthe day.
That's right.
What about firearms?
you can take them anywhere except some nursing homes won't let you bring the firearms in.
Well, they say that have that sign at the nursing home, no firearms permitted.
And then you got these criminals coming up there and they see that.
(37:23):
Sign won't let us go in.
Why haven't you robbed the bank you haven't done what we talked about
Yeah, yeah
All right.
Well, thanks for, thanks for the chat, dad.
This was, And we'll keep talking later.
(37:45):
It just won't be on camera.
So, thank you again for tuning in here and we will see you next week.
Remember to like, and subscribe and share wherever you find this podcast.
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