The Otten Family Journey: Belief, Boldness, and Brotherhood

In this episode of Christendom and the World, Reverend Walter Otten shares the rich history of the Otten family, their immigration to America, and their deep-rooted commitment to Lutheran orthodoxy. He discusses the theological influences that shaped his upbringing, his education in Bronxville, and the friendships that formed during his youth. The conversation also delves into the challenges faced in pastoral life, particularly in combating liberal theology, and highlights the significance of Lutheran hymnody in their faith. Otten reflects on his personal life, including his marriage and family, and concludes with thoughts on the legacy of faith and community. This conversation delves into the historical and theological developments within the Lutheran Church, focusing on key figures, debates, and the evolution of thought from the 1960s to the present. It highlights the significance of education, the impact of district conventions, and the ongoing challenges faced by confessional Lutherans. The speakers reflect on their personal experiences in ministry and the importance of maintaining a strong theological foundation in the face of contemporary issues.

 

 

https://steadfastlutherans.org/blog/category/regular-columns/lessons-of-the-past/

 

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
you
Welcome back to Christendom in the World brought to you by Christian News.
In our episode today, we sit down with the Reverend Walter Otten, who is the youngerbrother of uh Reverend Herman Otten, who was the editor, the longtime editor of Christian
News.
And Pastor Otten tells us about some history that he experienced in...

(00:29):
in Chicagoland where he was pastor for many years.
And in the 1960s, while a lot of the stuff was brewing in the Missouri Synod thateventually led to the walkout of the St.
Louis Seminary in 1974, there were some other things brewing at Concordia Teachers Collegein River Forest, Illinois, which today is known as Concordia University, Chicago.

(00:57):
And so...
Pastor Walter Atten tells us about his family and uh his family's move to the UnitedStates from Germany, uh how his family became so devoted to biblical Lutheran uh Orthodox
teaching and the battles that he had to fight while he was a pastor in Illinois.

(01:21):
So thank you for joining us and we hope you enjoy this segment.
So Pastor Atten, you?
Could you read that part right there?
I went to school to learn how to read that,
So that's from 1 John 3, 16.

(01:42):
Let's see if I can translate it.
We should also give our lives over for the brethren.
You did it right, ha ha.
And so this is, so what is this right here?
What is this thing that we're looking at?
That is, my grandfather died in Macedonia in 1916.
He really was a part of the Red Cross movement.

(02:06):
Although it says that they could be drafted by the German army, but I had heard that anypastor that had taken one year of study in America was exempt from the draft.
but he only went to school in Irz in a small seminary in Germany and he wasn't exempt fromthe draft, but somehow he was able to be a part of the Red Cross in Germany.

(02:31):
You don't have the Red Cross on his sleeve, but the picture we have of him at home has theRed Cross on his sleeve.
My father was happy that therefore he couldn't be killed because he never carried aweapon, only had the Red Cross, but he died of tuberculosis.
in Macedonia.
The interesting thing about this picture, my mother was never a U.S.

(02:55):
citizen during the second war.
uh Something had happened that the father, no, my brother had said something at a churchthat brought the FBI to our home in New York.
And the FBI during the war came there and my mother, not a citizen, had this picture.

(03:18):
in our hallway coming in, which indeed brought much concern of this picture with theGerman during the second war.
There was some, I'm not sure finally how that was resolved, but it was my brother HermanArton that indeed brought the FBI into our home because of something he had said in some

(03:42):
Protestant uh church basement.
We'll talk more about this in
talk more about that.
Evan, who's...
there's a signature here.
Who's...
Really?
Rex, Wilhelm the King.
Wilhelm the King.
Right, Kaiser.
Yeah.
So, so yeah, how about that?
That's kind of neat.

(04:03):
All right.
Well, let's go in.
You are Pastor Walter Otten and you're Herman Otten's, Pastor Herman Otten's youngerbrother.
By one is it 18 months to the day.
So my brother James and I are exactly 18 months apart.

(04:24):
I call him every day, whenever it's his birthday, I call him and I wish him a happy, myhalf birthday.
And he calls me on my birthday and wishes me a happy, his half birthday.
So, so we were very close growing up.
So I imagine that you and Herman were, were pretty close growing up.

(04:44):
yes.
So, um if you could tell us just to start with, we just recorded uh something in thelibrary of your grandfather's uh death certificate as he died in the war of
atrurperculosis in World War I.
And uh you mentioned in there that he was a pastor in the Free Church.

(05:09):
And so he was still eligible for the draft.
um And so if you wanna...
maybe give us little bit of a background of how the Ottens first ended up in America.
But I think this story just from our conversation earlier coincides with first, how didthe Ottens end up in America and how did the Ottens become so Orthodox, so conservative?

(05:38):
I suppose it was because of my grandfather, Hermann Aten, who graduated from Uelzen, whichwas a small seminary, which was not recognized by the state of Germany as, I guess, an
official seminary.
Therefore, when the Second War, the First War broke out, he was eligible for the draft,and he was drafted.

(06:01):
he was in the...
German army, but was able to be working as a Red Cross person.
The only picture we have of him, and I have it at home, there are three Hermans, HermannAten, the grandfather, Hermann Aten, my father, and Hermann Aten, my brother.
So I've got them right there at the desk.
And this Hermann Aten from Uelzen became a pastor near Lithuania.

(06:28):
It was still in Ostproisen.
And it was there that he was drafted and went.
was in Macedonia serving with the Red Cross, uh contacted tuberculosis and died there.
But in the process as a pastor, he would have known a Heinrich Koch who had a PhD fromLeipzig, which was a rare thing.

(06:51):
And somehow I'm not sure whether Heinrich Koch came from America and got his PhD there inLeipzig, but he was there after the Second First War.
serving in Berlin.
And my father, after the first war, where his dad died, there were seven children left inthe family with no income for the mother, and he became pretty radical politically,

(07:18):
wearing a pin in his lapel of the Communist Party leader who was against violence.
but yet was a communist.
And so when he went to Berlin to apply for a visa to come to this country, and they sawthat lapel pin, they said, no, we cannot give you a visa.
That was in 1919.

(07:40):
But in 1922, he applied for a visa again because for somehow he had made contact with afarmer in Coffeyville, Kansas, who would indeed pay his way to this country for, and you
have to,
He worked for two years.
was an indentured servant for two years in this country to have his money to come to this.

(08:03):
So what brought my Aten family was the results of the first war to this country.
But Herman Aten, who came here, came as one who knew Heinrich Koch, this PhD student whowas a pastor in Berlin.
Somehow Heinrich Koch came back to this country after the...

(08:26):
before the Second War, and he was made a teacher at Concordia, Bronxville, which was notvery far from where the Ottons lived.
And so the relationship that he had with Heinrich Koch in Germany was sustained inBronxville.
And I really think that they talked not only politics, but also theology, and HeinrichKoch's theology probably made an impression upon my father, although I have records of my

(08:54):
father, indeed.
indeed making light of the theology he was taught in his public schools in Germany afterthe war.
And it was indeed the liberal theology of Seminix that was present in the public schools.
And somehow, because he protested, he was not, he didn't have to go to religion classes inGermany.

(09:16):
This was as a student in grammar school.
So that attitude was there long ago.
So this is where the confessional movement, I think, came in.
But let me just add one thing.
My mother came from the Landeskirche, the state church.
But in her home in Seif in Germany, much of the literature came from CPH.

(09:38):
No kidding.
And it was obviously in German, but its theology was good too.
So it was that influence from both mother and dad.
And we had to walk every Sunday about an hour and a half to church, not a half an hour tochurch.
And we had no car.
Mother could take the bus, but we always had to
nephews and nieces had to run to school every...

(10:00):
didn't run, no, no.
We were not the Ottens of today.
So your father was an indentured servant for two years.
Was that in Kansas then?
It was in Kansas.
He was as happy as could be because he had a place to live with a faithful Missouri Synodfarmer and he had wonderful food.

(10:23):
Yeah, so you guys are kind of, so you start your American, now you're, were you, youweren't born yet.
uh Yes, no, no, no, no, I was one in 34.
yeah, so you this is years before your birth so by the time you and and your your siblingscome around you guys your parents are in New York ah
the Depression brought them there.

(10:43):
He was working for a company in Independence, Kansas, that made big doors that went to theEmpire State Building.
But the Depression stopped that company and he was able to find someone, relative in NewYork that he could work as a house painter.
And that's what he became.
although it's interesting, he wanted to, when he in 1919 wanted to come here, he wanted toenroll at

(11:11):
at St.
John's Winfield to become a pastor.
In fact, his brother was already there and my father was paying for his enrollment at St.
John Winfield.
And so that was a long time ago, obviously.
Yeah, wow.
Okay, so he ends up, so you guys are in, you're in New York City where you grew up.

(11:35):
did you know, I'm kind of jumping around here, but did you, so we're gonna talk about KurtMarquardt.
Of course, you were good friends with him.
Did you know David Scare when you were,
When you were younger or when did you meet David Sca...

(11:57):
I I should know Scare.
He was from Brooklyn.
I was from the Bronx.
The Berlin Wall was between us.
No, no, David Scare, his father was in Brooklyn and we didn't, we had no car.
Although we could use, there was a subway we could use to get there, really uh Brooklyn,I'm not sure I went there much at all when I was a child.

(12:23):
But with Walter League, was that a thing, was that pretty strong during your time whereyou were?
And did you get together?
So would you have gotten together with other Missouri Synod Lutheran young people in theNew York area?
Well, the Walthall League really took place once we were in high school.
And once we were in high school, we were at Bronxville and at Bronxville, the localWalthall Leagues would come and they would have Sunday afternoon basketball games.

(12:51):
uh Each league, each church would have their team playing.
But David Scare was in Brooklyn and that was quite a ways to come on a Sunday afternoonfrom Manhattan or from the Bronx where we were.
Bronx was close to Bronxville.
uh
Okay.
Yeah, my relationship with David Scare began in 1949.

(13:14):
He came one year after I did to Bronxville.
I was there in 48.
He came in 49 and it's very interesting.
In those years we had a yearbook to read.
I don't think every year I had David sign mine, but to read David's signatures and what hesaid to me indicates that David Scare was David Scare already in high school.

(13:38):
I mean, he was
a man who loved to save you and who loved to, and that was, it was just a greatrelationship.
yeah.
So now, could you explain the dynamics of Bronxville?
Was it kind of a preparatory high school into a college?
what were, you eventually became a university, but now it's gone.

(14:01):
But what, in your days, what was the education program like?
Well, it was uh program of uh four years high school, two years junior college, four yearshigh school.
Our first year we began with German, which was nothing for me.
It was like English.
The second year we took Latin and the third year we then took Greek.

(14:24):
And so because we would have those language preparations and always a religion course, Icould go over those courses with you.
But to me, it was a wonderful experience.
And when we got into the uh junior college,
We continued with the three language, four language, you the three languages, Englishwould be the fourth.
But you see that made a big difference significantly.

(14:47):
When you went into the junior college as a freshman, uh if you went as a freshman, youdidn't have the four years of high school with the Greek, Latin, and German.
So if you were gonna become a pastor, you had to go three years to the junior college andthen go to the seminary.
But someone came into our class

(15:08):
as a freshman in the junior college named Kurt Marquardt.
And to expect him to take three years where others would take, they only made him take twoyears.
What is very interesting, when we got into junior college, now finishing our high school,there was already a student waiting for us who had taken a year, a William Schmelter.

(15:32):
who became a prophet at St.
Louis.
He had to take three years of junior college.
The same time that Kurt was there and Kurt took the two years of junior college.
it was, uh but the big, not a great big change for some of us.
It was four years of high school, all boys.

(15:53):
The two years of uh grammar school I had before I went, they were also for boys.
So the only two years in my whole education experience that were girls,
were the two years that I was at Bronxville in the junior college.
And then they expected us to be able to get married when we left the seminary.

(16:13):
Yeah, wow, that's really interesting.
But my relationship with Kurt, Kurt came to this country in 1949.
He was confirmed, I think, in 1952.
Now, who his pastor was in Nyack, New York, I have no idea.
But he came to Bronxville in 52, having been confirmed that year.

(16:36):
What his faith was before that time, I don't know.
know he had a brother.
His mother had now recently married, but they were living in Nyack, New York.
And here comes Kurt, who was always the Kurt that we knew him to be.
We had to get dressed at Bronx with a jacket and a suit, but Kurt wore nothing but that.

(16:58):
He was always the dignified Kurt Marquardt, and he was obviously intellectual.
But he became editor of the Concord, our newspaper, and he, of all things, asked me tobecome the sports editor.
So we had a relationship.
Now, this is interesting about Kurt.
I did write it up in the
book that is about his life, that when he was the editor of the Concord, the drinking agein Bronxville was 18.

(17:28):
And so we were legally permitted, if we had reached the 18th year in college, to observeand to uh participate in Lutheran beverages.
But this...
The faculty there at Bronxville said that Johnny's Pizzeria in Waverly, about a mile away,was out of limits.

(17:50):
We shouldn't go there and we shouldn't drink there.
And an editorial in the Concord written by Kurt Marquardt takes us to task because we wentto Johnny's Pizzeria not just for pizza and he's breaking the Fourth Commandment.
because the authority of God is placed into the administration of Bronxville.

(18:15):
What is interesting though, if you would read what he writes in my yearbook, at the veryend of that second year, he apologizes for being a legalist.
But I always defended Kurt.
He was right when he said we were disobeying God's will when we were utilizing thatfacility.

(18:38):
But if you would read the other editorials that he wrote at that time, how theologicallyprofound already indicates the nature of that man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And he was, he's been described by others as an auto did act, right?
He just kind of taught he, he, he would teach himself because he never had, he never endedup having an earned doctorate, um, academic doctor.

(19:03):
He got an honorary doctorate out of, can't remember where.
He went to Canada, University of, in London, Ontario.
London, Ontario, okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, yeah.
And of course, you know, I just interviewed my dad and he said that...
He named Kurt Markhort as the hero uh of the Fort Wayne Seminary, especially when mygrandfather was going through all of that persecution and that Kurt Markhort was his

(19:34):
theological advisor.
uh so he became, so Markhort was your friend, and then he became a very good friend toyour brother and wrote a lot for Christian News over the years.
Here at Camp Trinity, there is a memorial for Marquardt.

(19:56):
I wanted to name the library, I wanted to talk the board into naming the library, KurtMarquardt Memorial Library.
And then there's the gym, to name that the Herman J.
Atten Memorial Gym.
uh
be...
But I don't know, don't think Grace wanted, I think Grace just wanted to keep it theChristian news library.

(20:20):
That's fine.
What is interesting about Kurt Marquardt when we went to the seminary in 1954, 71 yearsago, when we went there, Herman was in his third year.
And I don't know if there was ever any other time or place where a first year student wasplaced with a third year student.

(20:41):
My own experience, as I can recall, if you were a first year student, you live with firstyear students.
But somehow because of the relationship that Herman and I had,
brother and the communication that we were sharing with each other about talking aboutwhat began to appear already in the 50s at St.
Louis and I share that with Kurt.

(21:04):
And so Kurt's interest already because of his theological direction and this student atthe seminary, Herman Otten, that's why Herman Otten and Kurt Marquardt lived together.
He as a third year student, Kurt as a first year student at the seminary, which I thinkon.

(21:26):
But what this is interesting, a question you kind of began before when Kurt went there, hehad an icon.
that he placed on the dresser.
An icon in Herman's room was like almost violating the, you know, Pope.
I mean, you become Roman Catholic with an icon.
Yeah, sure.

(21:47):
Well, you know Kurt and his.
And so that and my relationship with Kurt, was...
uh
I think I told you before, asked you the question, how many have received a call toAustralia?
Kurt went to Australia probably in 1961.
He was called to Weatherford, Texas and stayed there till they finished the first buildingof the Weatherford congregation.

(22:11):
They had the call to Australia.
Well, he had the call to Australia.
How did he know, how did they know Kurt in Australia?
In 1959 at the Convention of Synod in San Francisco, we all with David Scare went
to that convention, we in a car, but Herman somehow accessed money to send Kurt on theairplane.

(22:32):
So Kurt was there before us.
And who was there at the convention?
Herman Sasse.
OK.
And that's where the relationship of Sasse and Herman and Kurt Markwood in Australia.
So Kurt gets there in 61.
I'm in Canada at that time.
And Kurt isn't there very long and a call from Australia comes to me to go to Australia.

(22:59):
So you can see the relationship that Kurt and I had.
He wanted me with him in Australia.
So I chose to stay under the Queen in Canada than under the Queen in Australia.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we were talking earlier about my dad had a call to that same congregation in Tuambo.
Is it Tuamba?

(23:20):
that Tuambo?
Tuambo, Australia, in Queensland.
And he had a call back in 2009 and turned it down.
that's where Kurt Markhorst served.
But yes, but he had a home there.
But the call I had to Australia assured me that they would always be wood for me for myfurnace.

(23:43):
That's a very nice assurance.
So, okay, so now you mentioned you were in Canada for a while, for a few years, your firstfew years in the...
I think that's an interesting part of my life because the call that I had to Canada fromseminary was to the first Missouri Synod Church in Canada, started by Lou He's first

(24:05):
sending Adam Ernst.
In 1841, they sent him here to this country because there was a school in Ohio that didn'thave a teacher and Adam Ernst listened to the call of Wienekin to
They needed teachers and pastors here.
So he went to Neuendettelzau under Leuhey, and he was the first centling of Leuhey to cometo this country as a teacher.

(24:33):
But the people there had no pastor in Ohio, so they asked him to become a pastor.
He went to Columbus and became a pastor.
And then somehow his ministry brought him in 1854 up into the Buffalo area, and there weresome Germans in uh
near Rhineland, Ontario, and he got there in, I think, February of 54.

(24:59):
I think within a couple of months, the congregation became a Missouri Synod congregation.
It was the first Missouri Synod, and that's the congregation.
I had no idea when I accepted the call, anything.
I should have known about Luhye, but I didn't pay that much attention in history classes,but subsequently.

(25:20):
And if you look at the Constitution of Synod signed in 1847 in Ohio, no, in Cleveland, inChicago,
Adam Ernst's name appears as the second signature of the concert.
interesting, Leuhey told Adam Ernst to get in touch with this Saxon there in Missouri,know, this guy Walther.

(25:44):
He was a Franconian and that's what really brought them together.
Somehow we elevate the Saxons, we forget the Franconians and their significant influencein starting the Missouri Senate.
Yeah, well that there's a lot of history there.
So, uh so I because your your native language is German, you are pronouncing it allcorrectly.

(26:11):
I always grew up saying, uh Leah, I've heard Leahy.
I don't know if anyone says that.
But you say, is that is that how you pronounce?
So will
That's the language of heaven.
Language of heaven.
Well, that's what I was taught in seminary, you know uh Dr.
Munt was one was one of did you know him?

(26:31):
I don't know if you know he was he was he was uh He grew up in Nebraska, but he was mydogmatics professor at st.
Catharines and he would tell us that for you uh Lutheran purgatory is that uh Before youget it into heaven, you got to go to purgatory to learn German

(26:52):
then you can...
You know, I've often said I left out Purgatory.
The only way into heaven is with the German.
is with a chairman.
So, okay, so how long were you in Rhineland, Ontario?
Three years, okay.
And then you got a call to Chicago, Blackfield, and you were there for what, 45, 50 years?

(27:18):
43 years before you retired, quote unquote.
But you have been, quote unquote, retired for how long now?
2005.
20 years.
But you're still going, it seems.
Or you...
sermon that I preached on Easter, now eight days ago, nine days ago, was to a blackcongregation in Chicago.

(27:45):
ah Thank God Ralph Taus, our circuit counselor, visitor now, thank God we got that wordback, that they had told him they would have a pastor come and consecrate the elements on
Saturday so that some lay person could distribute them on Easter Sunday.

(28:05):
And our circuit counselor, Ralph, said, no, I'll get a pastor for you.
So he, at the last time, at last moment, he got this German to, but he got me to preach.
It was a beautiful church.
St.
Paul's in Austin, Chicago area, almost out of Chicago.
Austin was a territory that was later added to Chicago, but it was a beautiful church.

(28:34):
Now you were, okay, so you got to Chicago and what?
So that would have been, when did you graduate?
The seminary?
You graduated in 59, so you get to Chicago in about 62?
62.
Okay.
And now this is, you have some, you've written some interesting stuff.

(28:55):
There's one column that I was reading earlier this morning.
that was published in Brothers of John the Steadfast about 17 years ago.
So that not that long ago in 2008.
And we'll put a link to this in under this video.

(29:17):
But it was on the forgotten Steadfast Brethren or something like that.
And you describe the
the background of Seminex from the perspective of a pastor uh living in Chicago, being apastor in Chicago, that the controversies uh brought on by higher criticism, historical

(29:48):
criticism,
that manifested themselves in at Concordia Teachers College at the time, right?
In uh River Forest, which today I think is just known as Concordia Chicago.
Concordia University Chicago, but at the time was Concordia Teachers College in RiverForest.

(30:08):
And so if you want to give a little bit of, uh you know, while your brother was out herein rural Missouri,
typing away on his typewriter and sending letters to people and uh trying to fight thegood fight and exposing the liberal theology that was going on in particular in the

(30:30):
Missouri Synod, but even in Protestantism as a whole or in Christendom as a whole.
You were out in Chicago fighting a similar fight and perhaps didn't get as much press.
Or at least not as much lasting press.
So could you could you explain kind of that how you got into that?

(30:51):
So you get to Chicago in 1962 Well, how about we start with this?
Your wife is Ruth Yeah, you're not ruthless.
Yeah, your wife is Ruth Atten and you told me a story yesterday About her.
So if we could start with how did you meet your wife Ruth?
I think it's a just a great story

(31:14):
Well, I came to Chicago in 1962.
Let me just say before that my relationship with my brother Herman when he was here in NewHaven began in 1956 when he began preaching here.
And so my relationship with him theologically has always been very unified.
I suppose subsequently since he never wore the collar and I do, that may have become someset questions that we had had.

(31:38):
But Mark Court rubbed off on you in that way.
uh
to Chicago in 1962, I came there having served as the, you asked about my wife.
Well, we had a school at St.
Paul Brookfield and the very first year I was in, September, I was installed.

(32:02):
then they decided to take student teachers from River Forest.
Art Simon, was the brother of Paul Simon, who was a candidate for the U.S.
presidency, you might remember.
to be confused with the guy Simon from Simon and Garfunkel.
Okay.
Anyway.
All right.

(32:23):
Paul Art Simon had been a vicar and he was leaning in the direction of some of the othersin that left hand way.
And he had been a professor ever before, so we knew that there was some left leaning inthere already.
This was even before I came to back to the country.
And so that question was there.

(32:44):
So when they wanted to put student teachers into our school because they would be therenot
just to listen to our teachers, but they would be there to do some teaching of everything.
I was concerned that they're gonna, what theology are they going to bring?
This is back in 62.
Well, then the very first student teacher he had, he ultimately became the provost atValparaiso, very insignificant person.

(33:16):
I'll think of Roy was his name.
And are you pardon are you raw?
Okay.
OY uh Austin's and Roy Austin's and he had he had a girlfriend that he thought should comeand listen to the guy who's a preacher at Saint Paul Brookfield.
So he brought his girlfriend there to St.

(33:39):
Paul, who was very disappointed in what her experience was, because the preacher wore ablack gown and a black tie.
And that kind of was upsetting, because she came from St.
Mark's in Cleveland, Ohio, where they were very liturgical.
But she wasn't offended by the preaching, but by the preacher she was.
uh

(34:03):
Then somehow, because we were having a music program and she was able to come and become astudent teacher at the next quarter.
And so here she was not only a visitor with her boyfriend.
but she's there as a student teacher.
And as a student teacher, she's playing the organ.
She was also in music and she would not play the amens when we finished the hymns.

(34:29):
And the pastor was singing the amens acapella in the chancel.
Well, that situation had to be corrected by the pastor's perspective.
And I invited her to dinner to talk about this because mother said you can catch them muchbetter with honey than with vinegar.
So take her out.
On the way to go to the dinner, we had Moody Bible on, and she turned it off because ofthe music.

(34:55):
What was some of the music that was playing?
I'm probably the rock of ages or just as I am.
I was a Walter Meyer enthusiast.
I was Lutheran hour because every student at the seminary was going to take Walter Meyer'splace.

(35:16):
You know, that's how important he was.
You have no idea what that's a kid.
That was every two 30 Sunday afternoon.
You had listened to the Walter Meyer and heard all of his music.
So that was our experience.
Well, well, finally she never left.
She married the pastor and she's been there now 60 years.
So I want to go back to that.
cause that's why I'm really, I've always been interested in this because I'm veryinterested in Lutheran hymnody and the Lutheran corrals.

(35:45):
And I remember reading somewhere, I think it was the Lutheran witness from 1930 somethinghad a pole and pulled the
the members of the Synod and asked their favorite hymns.
And it was like the top 20 or something favorite And the only Lutheran hymn mentioned wasA Mighty Fortress.

(36:08):
And the rest of them were all of these quote unquote old favorites uh and Methodist hymnsand, know, maybe not the worst hymns in the world, but, you know, they're not the Lutheran
chorales.
And this is something that is, uh I think is a big part of my own family heritage that
we Norwegians love the Lutheran chorale.

(36:31):
And we still can get on board with some of the...
we adopt some of them as our own, like, you know, even Rock of Ages, you know, that it's alittle bit greasy in its tune, but the words are good, you know.
And, uh you know, you have some beloved hymns that we'll adopt as our own.
But at that core, we're the Lutheran chorale.

(36:53):
And when I...
first got to know your wife Ruth, I noticed that she was very staunchly, and I know youare too, but staunchly in favor of the Lutheran Chorale.
And so, where would she have learned that zeal for the Lutheran Chorale?
So much that when she hears you listening to Moody Bible Institute old favorite hymns onthe radio, she shuts it off because she doesn't want to listen to that.

(37:18):
So, where did she get that?
Well, Ralph Schulz was the organist at Trinity in Cleveland.
She took her organ lessons there from Ralph Schulz.
So, you know, that relationship and he became president of Bronx, but he was really themusician.
Ralph Schulz's wife was Ted Nichols daughter.
That's a long history that people may not know.

(37:40):
But that's really a part of my wife's.
mean, she grew up in really from that part of Indiana where we nick and did his
work.
So that was really and uh comes from a very strong, powerful, Lutheran family.
And it was a great blessing to me for her to find me and me to find her.

(38:01):
So in the Missouri Synod, during this time when the Lutheran Chorale is kind of being lostin many ways, there are these pockets in the Missouri Synod that are preserving the old
chorales.
that's what she grew up in, kind one of those pockets.
I'm surprised Ralph Schultz being her teacher what would he teach her what kind of musicwould he be giving to her so that really would be a part of her experience in growing up

(38:28):
musically.
ah
River Forest and she's trained to not play the amen at the end of the hymn.
So, you eventually were able to get her to submit to you as her pastor, and theneventually as her husband too, right?
So, okay, so you guys got married and how many kids do you have?

(38:49):
Five kids.
And you have one grandson who is a pastor now.
uh
No, we have two grandchildren, one son and one daughter.
No, no, these are great grandchildren.
I'm thinking of grandchildren.
They're twelve grandchildren.

(39:10):
oh
of your grandsons just was ordained a year ago.
He was just ordained, right?
He's the Fort Wayne grab.
Yeah, Fort Wayne grad.
Okay.
All right.
So so you're in you're in Brookfield uh Chicago area um at st.
Paul and so You you marry your wife now Did you when you met Ruth?

(39:35):
She was obviously from River Forest Did you gain any insight from her about some of thethings that were being taught over there at?
Even before my relationship with Ruth, I came from Canada where I had been the uh pastoraladvisor for the Walther League.
You asked about Walther League, what it was in Canada, in Ontario, which is wonderful.

(39:57):
All the league, the congregations would get together.
They would have all kinds of interesting.
We had a square dance there and the pastor, Helmwell Priefer from a church, Bethel andKitchener, wrote to me as the pastoral advisor.
How could you have a square dance?
That was back in the
but my relationship with the Walter Lake, I was not married and we had a, and so some ofthem came to the River Forest to be for whatever purpose.

(40:25):
Some were going up to, I know Dorothy Wolfgram, she went to, at that time Concordia,Milwaukee, didn't have the one on the lake yet.
But some of the students would leave at my home the books that they use
and the medication, not the medication, the information distributed by their professors.

(40:50):
And so I read, you know, what do they get in theology classes?
And there was a document that was distributed by Ralph Gerke to the students of his classthat indeed used this word.
He was actually uh mimeographing.
He had photographed a...

(41:12):
page in which it said that sometimes the authors of the Old Testament in Genesis, whenthey didn't have information exactly, use their imagination, use their imagination.
When I read that, wow.
Well, that was in 1962, 63, maybe 63.

(41:32):
But then I called Ralph Gerke, and Ralph Gerke was a gentleman.
He was from the Wisconsin Synod, and he appreciated good Lutheran music.
But his theology was something to be questioned when he would give this document, areproduction from a liberal textbook, which was then found, and it said, they use you.

(41:55):
So I wanted to talk
with him about that.
I called him to meet with him and ironically he told me before you can meet with me youshould get the permission of Martin Keneke our president.
Matthew 18 somehow didn't have a part so I did go to to the president Martin Keneke and Iasked for permission to talk with his prof about these notes.

(42:22):
And in the course of conversation, he did ask, are you accusing him of false doctrine?
And looking at the documents where the word imagination was used, I said, if this is whathe teaches, that's false doctrine.
And his response to that was, you must have an accusation accepted or heard by two orthree witnesses, and you don't have a witness to this.

(42:46):
And so I can't permit you to see Keneke.
You can't see him.
So was this kind of a...
I wonder if this is kind of a backhanded uh insult on Professor Gericke.
Maybe he's insinuating that no one reads this guy's stuff.
And you were apparently the only one who read what he wrote.

(43:10):
I don't know, but I was upset that I couldn't speak with him about this document that hewas using to teach our kids that I knew from Canada, my dear friends.
so that, well, I then began a correspondence with Harms, who was president, and then hesaid he would see what we could do.

(43:34):
And the process went on and on.
And Keneke, I think this was the time that he
to lead the Synod's campaign called Ebenezer for funding.
so he went then, I think Halter became president.
so the documents are all there.
And finally, since there was no communication with him, then I made an appeal to thedistrict convention that maybe that they should see to it that this pastor who was

(44:03):
concerned would have the opportunity to meet.
with a professor who had said this.
And ironically, the district convention adopted a resolution that said yes, because Gerkesaid he was willing to meet.
But their resolution said the meeting would be with the district president, Gerke andAten.

(44:27):
Now, if this becomes very complicated, something else had happened.
just before that convention with the district president and Walter Arden and WalterBowman.
I could get into that.
But what had happened there, that meeting with Bowman and Arden and Erv Paul, the districtpresident, resulted

(44:54):
in Irv Paul not being reelected after only one term.
So the resolution to meet with Gerke was no longer to have Irv Paul, but the new districtpresident.
That was perfectly fine with me.
The resolution from the committee said Paul had to be there.
I said, no, I wanna meet with Gerke alone to determine this because I knew where Paulwould come from because of the...

(45:22):
meeting I had had with Paul and Bowman.
Well, that's a long story.
But so then we had that meeting with Kirk and some of these things, but what finallyresulted, the Board of Control at that time, or what the Board of Regents, Control, it was
called Control, they said, well, they didn't know what to do because they had thedocuments that I had sent.

(45:50):
They said, well,
why don't we see if we can't establish a committee that will hear Aten and Gierke.
The committee that would hear and we would then hear the committee's response.
Now the issues were indeed the issues that surface in the whole conflict, historicity andthe authorship and so and it would Jonah, the whale, not the tree, Adam, Eve, Adam did

(46:19):
Isaiah right, Isaiah did.
that's what, when Gierke is speaking about the prophets writing, using their imaginationto write words, that he has, these are the big, the main stories are like Jonah and the
fish, Adam and Eve talking to the

(46:39):
became the issue.
Now the committee that they said would be determined on the basis of names submitted byAtten and Gehrke.
So Gehrke should submit his names about 12 and I should submit 12 names and then each ofus would pick three names to be on the committee.

(46:59):
So I picked what I knew with the most liberal of the names that Gehrke submitted of the 12I submitted.
Ralph Preuss and that outfit would be...
Ralph?
No, no, Ralph...
Robert?
Ralph Bowman.
Oh, Ralph Bowman.
Bowman, yeah.
Bowman, okay.
And Robert Preuss.
And Robert Preuss, okay.

(47:20):
And, you know, that's 50, 60 years ago now.
He refused to accept any.
So the committee, the Board of Regents was really, what are we gonna do?
Well, they said, no, we'll appoint a committee where Arton gets one.
and Gerke gets one and we get one and that committee of three will then tell us whatdirection we should take as a board.

(47:48):
Gerke chooses Martin Marty.
I choose Ralph Preuss.
Hold on.
Robert Preuss.
they choose a Professor Johnson, not the one who became president of St.
Louis.
but he had been a prof at Fort Wayne.
Okay, we're at Springfield.

(48:10):
At Springfield.
Okay.
And so that committee meets and they submit their report.
What it ever said, think the result was, let's wait till the convention of Senate in 74answers the questions.
74.

(48:30):
73 convention.
this is, I mean, a lot has happened between, I mean, this is what 1963 when you firststarted.
And all you wanted to do was be able to have a sit down with Professor Kirke and you gotto go through all this rigamarole.
And it's not until right before 1973 that you finally are able to have this.

(48:53):
Finally, all the documents, including when he is involved, I mean, for the positive, weobviously finally it's 15 years later, a decision is made.
What did happen?
Paul Zimmerman becomes president and then he says we've got to deal with the issue.

(49:16):
For us and Gerke is the prophet of a far, so he's got to deal with it.
And so that.
uh
Ralph, Paul Zimmerman, Kierke and I are meeting in his office and we have the issues andfinally there was a board of appeals or committee of appeals or commission of appeals of
each district and the and it was happening in our district the committee of appeals wouldwould hear our case and and we and we had the case a discussion of these issues and that

(49:50):
committee
Unanimously, I processed as one member that committee because he belonged to River Forestcongregation.
That's before Grace left.
And I said the congregation had already affirmed that Gerke was innocent.
because the issue had been so long.
I said, how could he be on the committee that has affirmed Gerkey?

(50:12):
Well, my protest of having him wasn't accepted, but he was still on the committee.
But the committee unanimously that Gerkey was guilty of false doctrine of eight issues,the eight of the issues that came up.
And then that committee decision had to be affirmed.

(50:33):
by our presidium.
Somehow the district president said that he's going to give it to the pastor of Saint Paulin Kankakee, Pastor Bowman, actually a relative of Ralph Bowman.
And he affirmed, yes, he's guilty.
So Ralph Gail Kink.
Now, that's not often mentioned.
If you would read the story in Missouri in perspective, that was the issue.

(50:57):
Have you heard of that, you young guys?
They always said that Gerke shouldn't even be on trial because he was declared innocentbecause of lack of two or three witnesses.
Way back.
Yeah.
But then what had happened by that time, Ralph, whom I said was a very gentleman man, hehad left to teach at a ULC seminary in Washington state.

(51:24):
So he ended he he had left the Missouri Senate.
He was never dismissed, but he was declared guilty of false doctrine.
Yeah.
Okay, so let's just review some of these names.
So you got, what's Gerrichie's first name?
Ralph Gerrichie.
Ralph Gerrichie is teaching at River Forest.
mentioned another guy, Walter Bowman.

(51:46):
Not to be confused with Bow-l-men.
Ralph Bowman was at, yeah, yeah.
So Ralph Bowman was at St.
Louis and was one of the five who didn't walk out during the Seminacs.
And then there's another.
saga of him and my grandpa, which is another story.

(52:08):
I talked about that with my dad already.
But there's Walter Bowman, who's also a prof at River Forest, your pastor in Chicagoland.
um And then you have, uh you mentioned Martin Marty, who was teaching at University ofChicago.
And he was also a liberal.

(52:29):
So
Gherki Bowman and Martin Marty are all higher critics, right?
And so all you want to do is sit down with Gherki.
And for 15 years, it is basically.
finally found out, mean, we had our committee of uh commission or committee of appeals,about seven members elected by the convention at conventions and they were hearing the

(52:59):
whole case.
And unanimously they found him guilty.
Now that was significant.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so now let's talk about Bowman, so Walter Bowman, who eventually also ended up inthe ELCA.
And so there's another episode that happened with him, of from between 1963 and 74.

(53:28):
What happened with him?
he...
Oh, Walter...
you get involved interesting story.
Among the vicar's that we had at St.
Matthew, home congregation, one was John Teach and John Dom Walter Bowman.
uh Another one, he wasn't actually a vicar, he.
Yeah, yeah, so we knew them all.

(53:48):
Wow.
But you see any vicar are.
just so people know, John Teachen was the president of the seminary in St.
Louis, who was elected, I think, in 1969.
And at the same time uh that Jack Preuss was elected president of the synod.

(54:09):
he was then, uh John Teachen was removed from the seminary for teaching false doctrine orallowing the teaching of false doctrine with the historical critical method that totally
undermines
the inerrancy of Scripture and faith and the inspiration of Scripture.
And then that led to the walkout of 40 out of the 45 professors walked out in solidarityfor ah John Teachen.

(54:35):
So John Teachen was your vicar.
John Teachen was probably at our home every Monday during his vicarage.
My mother invited any vicar that was there to come to supper on Monday nights.
Now, some of them obviously couldn't come every Monday, but a Monday night every vicar wasthere.
And so we got to know the vicars real well.

(54:57):
And we got to know Walter Bowman very well.
So Bowman was vicar after teaching?
Yes.
Okay, so you had both of them as your
in 1953.
was actually 52, 53 because in 53 my dad took our family, all six of us, to Europe forthree months and since Bowman was our vicar paying rent someplace, my dad told Bowman you

(55:21):
can live in our apartment for three
just to be clear, this is not, sorry, I think I misspoke.
You were not their supervisor.
No, no, no.
They were vickers in New York.
your home congregation when you were a teenager.
Okay, so you got to know them when you were young.

(55:42):
Yes.
Okay.
So Walter Bowman actually, well, that's totally unnecessary.
We had a good relation.
In fact, when he was teaching at River Forest, he invited me to come to his home fordinner because the relationship that we had, it was a very cordial relationship.
But cordiality and theology are two different things.

(56:05):
And so there was a...
what at that time was called the debate of the century, a debate at Valparaiso wherethree, two evolutionists, Kreckler and Bloom teaching at Valpo would be debating with Paul
Zimmerman, John Klotz, and I'm not sure who the other person was, but a confessionalist, acreationist, I believe in creation and.

(56:34):
There was another person with Krechler and Bloom and that was Walter Bowman.
He was not a scientist.
uh He was a theologian, but his position was with the evolutionists because hisinterpretation, the way he interpreted scripture or how he dealt with scripture would

(56:58):
permit evolution.
Okay, so this is Walter Bowman.
Walter Bowman.
So Walter Bowman, who was a vicar in your home congregation in New York when you were anadolescent, um he then is involved in a debate in Valparaiso, right?
And now you mentioned, again, I want to just slow down a little bit here, Paul Zimmerman,that was another name, just to...

(57:25):
give a little bit of a background of him.
He was, he started off at Concordia in Seward, Nebraska.
And then he was the president of Concordia junior college in Ann Arbor.
And my parents were met in Ann Arbor when he was the president there in the earlyseventies and uh was a staunch defender of biblical inerrancy.

(57:54):
And then he ended up becoming the president at River Forest.
74.
In 74, right after the walkout.
Right.
OK.
OK.
So now we're backing up to what 1965 is this?
When is this this debate in in at Valparaiso?
65.
OK, so you have on the one side you have Zimmerman and Klotz.

(58:19):
later was the Prophet St.
Louis.
who are conservative, who are holding to the biblical inerrancy.
First, it may have been Sirberg or there was another, of those, they were creationists.
And then the other side you have.
Crickler and Bloom who were Valparaiso professors.
Walter Bowie.

(58:40):
Walter Bowman, who is a River Forest professor at the And he doesn't argue for evolutionper se, he argues that theologically you can read the Bible in such a way to allow for
Darwinian macroevolution to be an accepted position.

(59:03):
Okay, so that's 1965.
then,
Is that what you're responding to?
That's how you then, you're friends with this guy, you know him, you've known him sinceyour childhood.
Well, no, it happened this way that.
that Christian News was there and I was writing for Christian News and so Herman, mybrother, says Walter, go to Valpo.

(59:24):
And so I went there.
It was an open meeting and then I wrote the story and I very carefully tried to relatefaithfully what any of the six people said.
uh And so I wrote the story.
Now the headline, I didn't write.

(59:46):
The editor writes the headline.
My brother, the headline says, Crackler, Bloom, Bowman defend evolution.
And right under it says by Walter Otten, you know, the story.
Walter Bowman then uh is upset because he never, he interpreted that he never defendedevolution.

(01:00:08):
He was not in a scientific position the way the other two did, but he defended ittheologically.
But he was upset.
He said that I
I didn't write the headline, but he accused me of writing it.
Well, he said, I must have written the headline because the article follows that I didwrite.
And so he accuses me of breaking the eighth commandment and he takes that to our districtpresident.

(01:00:34):
He's the district president of both of us because he's at River Forest, I'm at Brookfield.
And so he calls.
So there's a meeting that we have with our district president, Irv Paul to discuss.
his charge that I broke the Eighth Commandment with the phrase, Bowman defends evolution.

(01:00:54):
Well, I can go over the whole meeting we had with Irv Paul and obviously that Irv Paul wassympathetic with Bowman's concern of what I had said.
And so we go over the meeting and uh he defends Bowman in this matter.

(01:01:17):
Well, then we have the convention coming up of the District Convention.
And in those days, or still today, issues that are going to be discussed at the conventiongo through a committee that then proposes resolutions.
Our congregation in Brookfield had submitted a resolution to the convention of ourdistrict.

(01:01:37):
I think it was 1965 that our district affirm creation, that evolution is not acceptable.
And so that's a convention committee, a convention resolution submitted by ourcongregation and a committee to deal with it is appointed by the district president.

(01:01:59):
district president appoints to that committee to deal with this resolution on evolution,Walter Bowman is going to be on that committee.
I write a letter to district president protesting his appointment of Bowman because heknows Bowman's theology on this question.
And he does not take his name off.

(01:02:23):
Bowman stays on the committee.
At the convention open hearing, not open opening session, the district president reportsthat there was a protest about one of his committee members and he mentions that at the
end of his report.
Aoga Bauer, a pastor of Bethlehem, Luton in the South part of Chicago, says Mr Chairman,what are we going to do about the protest?

(01:02:50):
I don't agree with your decision not to have Bowman removed.
I wish that he would be removed.
And Irv Paul says, well then, you can bring my decision not to remove him to theconvention.
Mr.
Chairman, I move that the resolution that Walter Bowman not be on be before us.

(01:03:14):
And so the convention voted actually to affirm the purpose of my resolution.
And as soon as the convention voted really to affirm Gabawa's concern in my resolution ormy protest,
The parliamentarian arises and says that Kibawa's resolution was out of order because hemade it at the wrong time.

(01:03:43):
He should have made the protest right during the presentation of Irv Paul about the issue.
what had happened then, the next issue would be the election of a president.
Irv Paul was defeated.
Now this is 1960.
probably 6660.

(01:04:05):
And you were telling me when we were talking earlier that this kind of emboldened you guysa bit, where you kind of realized that, wait a second, even though by this technicality,
the parliamentarian came in and struck this resolution to get rid of Bowman uh from thiscommittee, uh you still.

(01:04:27):
Yeah, but the fact that you defeated Paul, who was kind of a mushy liberal or
you know, someone who didn't want to deal with the liberal theology and you got in who wasthe guy who replaced him?
Hopple.
So President Hopple.
So you win that.
And you also, even though the parliamentarian, you know, uh made it Nolan Void, you stillknew that you had the convention on your side.

(01:04:56):
Yes.
And so that you were telling me yesterday that that kind of emboldened you to realize,wait a second.
this isn't a total loss, we actually have some traction here.
And that that give you some kind of uh confidence that you guys could actually make somedifferences at the synodical level.

(01:05:17):
Well, if we could win in Northern Illinois, which at that time really was a conservativedistrict uh at that time, we could do it in Northern.
Can we do it synodically?
Three years later, an election took place in Denver.
Yeah, no, I want to get, I want to get to that a little bit.
So that's the Denver election, 1969, where Jack Price is elected and harms is defeated andharms from what I understand was just kind of not doing much.

(01:05:44):
He didn't really know how to handle the, I've heard different, I've heard kindinterpretations that he was not a proponent of any of this liberal theology, but he just
was in over his head and didn't really know how to, he was for ALC fellow.
our efforts to expose what theology was in the ALC.

(01:06:06):
I don't see how he could have been for ALC fellowship while accepting their theology.
Sure.
The fact, the big issue there was
the election of John Teachen, you the whole course, the timing there, know, fear-bringersresigning or retiring and then being elected almost overnight, this guy from out east.

(01:06:29):
What did he have, theologically, what had he done, John Teachen?
He was relatively young, wasn't he?
And and harms was mean I thought that for the longest time harm is really acted withoutknowing everything.
Yeah, I think he fully was aware of John teaching OK.

(01:06:49):
Okay.
All right.
Well, that's no, that's good to hear.
I want to read something.
So going back to Bowman.
So Walter Bowman, again, professor at River Forest, who says he's not defending evolutionscientifically, but he's defending theologically the reading of scripture that would allow
for evolution.
And I'm reading this just from a report that we're going to have this in the, underneaththis video, a link so people can read this.

(01:07:17):
You wrote this for Stet Vest Lutherans uh several years ago.
ah You said, Bowman had said essentially the same thing in an article he prepared for the1965 Lutheran Education Association yearbook.
In his unedited copy, he wrote, quote, the evangelical approach, because it hears the wordof God as law and gospel is neither bound to biblical cosmology.

(01:07:47):
nor death to the word of God as expressed through biblical cosmology." And then you go on.
In that article, which evaluated Lutheran education materials, he wrote on the primaryreligion series for the eighth grade.
This is Bowman.
In the eighth grade, one of the objectives is that the children accept the biblicalaccount of creation and receive the

(01:08:15):
courage to support and defend it." Bowman continues, how sad.
Our children deserve something better than this.
If one begins with law and gospel, then learn something about the literary history and theliterary nature of the Genesis prologue, then we should have no fear of theories which can

(01:08:41):
possibly expand our vision of God's working.
Now,
What he says there sounds very Lutheran.
Begin with law and gospel, and then look at the way the Scriptures write, you know, andthis is true, right?
You know, you have different literary styles in the Scriptures.
You have poetry.
You have apocalyptic literature.

(01:09:03):
You have prose and history and, you know, so that sounds like, you know, he's speakingLutheranese there, but
What is the kind of hollow shell?
What is he undermining in that statement?
The historicity of what the Bible says.

(01:09:23):
there you go.
Oh, you want all law and gospel, but what's the gospel?
There's no history.
That's right.
Yeah.
At the fullness of time, God sent forth His Son to be born of a woman born under the law,ah to redeem us who are under the law so that we may receive the adoption of sons.
that, yeah.

(01:09:44):
So, you're dealing with, and I think that we deal with this today as well, this same kindof, you know, empty shell theology that uses jargon, that sounds great, law and gospel.
um evangelical, but underneath it, there's no substance.
There's no foundation on which the gospel actually stands.

(01:10:09):
And so you guys would have been portrayed as just a bunch of stodgy legalists, I'm sure,who just wanted to thump people over the head with the Bible.
um But what was at stake?
What was really, what was at stake uh during this whole fight?
The preface to Lent, he who by a tree once overcame by a tree is overcome.

(01:10:36):
There's a tree in the garden of—
Eden, there's a tree in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Those are historic trees on which there was Satan and there was Christ.
I mean, if we take history away, we take that away.
The Gospel is gone, to me, I don't want to say it's so simple to see, but it is.

(01:11:00):
You take the event away, there's nothing left.
Yeah.
And they had learned this distinction in their German schools, I suppose, between what?
History and Geschichte.
so, are we talking about historical accounts or are we talking more about this kind ofexistential story that relates

(01:11:31):
you know, our own kind of narrative and who we are and our own identity and that kind ofstuff.
So we can kind of existentially find our...
do you with the gospel?
I mean, I'm just throwing out all the different jargon, right?
And so what you get today is, you you'll hear, you might hear someone say, whether Jesusrose from the dead, whether the body is still in the tomb is not as important as whether

(01:11:58):
Jesus rises in your heart.
Right.
So is this, this is.
Well you think that's their theology.
It's all spiritualism.
Right.
It's a Gnostic.
It's kind of like, yeah, it's a, it's this, this existentialism that doesn't rely uponhistorical empirical fact.

(01:12:22):
But my experience.
Yeah.
And that's very, that's very attractive to the sentiments of natural man because of what?
It does something for me.
It does something to me.
It elevates me.
Look what I've reached.
I've come to the understanding.
I've come to the understanding.

(01:12:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And this is where, you know, the for you part of the gospel, instead of it being Jesus didthis on your behalf, a real atonement, um it's rather this for you in the sense that it's
just...
you know, helps you find your own sense of belonging or your own sense of peace orwhatever.

(01:13:06):
So it's all about me, me, me, ground of being.
That's a word that I hear that I've read.
I remember reading, I think it's Paul Tillich who talks that way a lot.
I get, now it was Paul Tillich, I'm going a little bit off a field here, but these kindof, there were some popular theologians at the time.

(01:13:30):
uh And what I remember, I remember listening to a sermon by my grandpa when he wasteaching at the St.
Louis Seminary, where he rebuked uh the seminary in his sermon for uh promoting thesemodern theologians like Tillich and uh I don't know, maybe Barth would be another one.

(01:13:57):
but, uh
But looking down on our fathers like Walther and Peeper, Francis Peeper and uh GeorgeSteckart, and did you find that to be the case that there was a kind of ah elitism among

(01:14:18):
some of these academics that they'd kind of look down on these fathers of the MissouriSynod?
they're just old-
It's interesting when you said you were going to invite me to be going to chat today, Ithought about the people that I knew.
You know those modern theologians were just coming in.

(01:14:38):
I mean they they they were they may have been here, but we were simply now beginning tohear from them.
But.
When I think of my Sunday school experience and what we were taught there in Sundayschool, was no, I that faith was there because there was an ark, there was a Jonah.
There was a tree, there was a tree in the garden, there was a leper that was cleansed, andall of that is taken away when you're thinking that it's a totally different picture.

(01:15:10):
And your faith is kind of totally changed.
uh
tell today to people.
But when I preach today, I'm taking the Sunday School of Training I had from, you know,that came from whom?
Stechart, not P.
Porn, Kretsman, P.
Kretsman, know, his commentaries.

(01:15:33):
And he was a member at Trinity.
So that's another story.
So yeah, yeah, exactly.
So those, the Sunday school material, I think this is significant that you bring up Sundayschool.
The Sunday school material in old Missouri, the ones who put together the Sunday schoolmaterial were the best theologians.

(01:15:57):
Because that was so important that it showed how seriously they took the education of theyoung.
in learning the Bible stories and understanding the theology of the doctrine that istaught there.
uh when you take that away, you get this kind of uh shallow, you know, artsy-fartsy sortof...

(01:16:21):
yeah.
That teaches kids that Jesus maybe inadvertently teaches them this, but maybe...
you know, purposefully does in certain cases, that believing in Jesus and believing insome fairy tale are really, you outgrow both of them.

(01:16:42):
It's like the Easter bunny or something like that.
And you just kind of outgrow it.
But when you were raised with Sunday school, you were raised with that foundation thatthis, these are real stories.
These are real accounts.
And therefore you can know that your faith is founded upon the true word of God.
It reminds, speaking of Lutheran hymns,

(01:17:03):
who reminds me of that great hymn by Erdmann Neumeister, who was a Lutheran pastor andtheologian in the early 18th century, who wrote, I know my faith is founded on Jesus
Christ my God and Lord, and this my faith confessing unmoved I stand upon his word.
Man's reason cannot fathom the truth of God profound, who trusts her subtle reason.

(01:17:28):
relies on shifting ground.
God's word is all sufficient.
It makes divinely sure and trusting in its wisdom.
My faith shall rest secure." That's one of the hymns that your wife likes, right?
It's been a wonderful time chatting with A.

(01:17:49):
Preuss.
Yeah, it's been a wonderful time chatting with Anna Houghton.
You know, your uncle hadn't, your grandfather hadn't come to St.
Louis yet, but he came when I was on Vicarage.
And my one negative thought of him is that I got a B in the only course I ever had fromhim.

(01:18:13):
And he was probably right in giving me a B.
I'm sure it's something in.
Confessions or something.
uh
He came to St.
Louis when I was on Vicarage in 57.
And my last year there, 58, 59, was his second year there.
And of course we had heard about uh all the Preuss family.

(01:18:38):
Mark Bartling was a student at the Springfield Seminary and Jack Preuss had just gottenthere.
And when Mark was there, obviously Mark, dear, friend of mine now dead, he was happy withJack Price.
And his dad was the secretary of the Confessional Lutheran.

(01:19:02):
And when their notice went out that they're going to appoint a new president ofSpringfield, uh Mark had access to all of the Confessional Lutheran subscribers.
their addresses and so he sends a letter out that they should nominate Jack Preuss to bepresident of Springfield.
And so who knows, but from what the story is that there were never as many suggestednominations for president of Springfield when Jack was elected.

(01:19:31):
And then I would like to think that Mark Bartling, who then graduated from Springfieldand...
uh
He was called to P.E., I think it's P.E.
Crutzman up in Crete, Illinois, and that was not a Missouri Synod church.
They had left the Missouri Synod, but they had called Mark, and asked me to preach for hisinstallation and ordination, that, but that was from Jack, his love of Jack Preuss made, I

(01:20:01):
think, had some significance in getting Jack Preuss elected, because all the nominationsthat came in.
because he hadn't been there that long.
oh
no, okay, so when you were, I'm curious about this.
So, did you graduate seminary before or after your brother?
And so how did that happen?

(01:20:21):
Because you were a year and a half younger than he is.
Oh, you graduate after he did?
Yeah.
Okay.
So what year did you graduate?
1959.
he graduated in
would have been 57 but.
So when he was going through, when they were not certifying him, you were on Vicarage atthe time or what?

(01:20:45):
Well, and in Canada, the whole process, I mean, I can recall, you know, communicationswhen I was in Canada in Herman's situation.
Well, that's such a long story.
a long story.
Okay, maybe we can talk about that another time.
uh I did enjoy reading about it in um David Scare's memoirs.

(01:21:09):
And he makes a point that at this point, it's hard to tell whether this faculty areliberal or conservative, because with their theology, they're liberal, but in the way that
they act,
and how everything has to be so officious and you don't ever question them and they juststonewall any kind of attempt from a student or anyone to try to call them to account.

(01:21:36):
was very, they're very kind of old school in their approach.
And it kind of reminds me of what you were just talking about with your attempt to try tohave a sit down with this Professor Gerke and how it's just continually.
you know, stonewalled and circumvented for years and years.
So, to wrap up this, now obviously you lived, you had a much longer ministry that lastedmany years after 1974.

(01:22:09):
But, so maybe to summarize all this, you know, we know the story that you had the split inthe Missouri Synod and then you had the ELCA eventually forming.
So, Kijit, give us uh what are some highlights of being a pastor, serving a pastor in theLutheran Church for all those years and that foundation that you stood on on the Word of

(01:22:41):
God and what you left behind.
ah What are you doing now?
Where do you live now?
um
Yeah, so if you could just speak to your time in Brookfield and perhaps your time now anduh you know, what's the ministry like there?

(01:23:03):
Well, let me tell you, one of the joys of the ministry today is when I go to a pastoralconference, the nature of the ministry now, the confessional posture of many of the
pastors is something that I did not experience earlier on.
It may be my situation where I was located, but uh some of the younger pastors especially,there's a fellowship of confession and not only social fellowship, but confessional

(01:23:32):
fellowship.
and that's a joy to experience.
But my ministry at St.
Paul Brookfield was a blessed experience.
I'm still living in the same parsonage that I went to 62, three years ago now.

(01:23:52):
And I walk the streets, drive the streets.
And of course, things have changed.
Our congregation at one time, we worshiped more than 500.
We never didn't worship.
We worshiped one, but 500 and more worshiped every Sunday.
That number went down significantly because of the culture that we're experiencing.

(01:24:17):
But you drive through the city, you would walk through the town, the village, and you seehouses that you visited, and you remember people.
and their struggles with life and faith, and you're part of that life.
uh when right now I think how in that church, which is still right across the alley fromwhere we're living, and I thank God for.

(01:24:43):
The people, just wonder where the people, now that congregation is 90 years, well, morethan 100 years old, 120, but when they built the church in 1945, interesting, right after
the war, they had to get permission to build because they couldn't get material to build.

(01:25:04):
What the people did in the buildings that they built, the faith they must have had tospend the time and the money
to build these buildings.
I think for expanded, it's much better then than it was today, how they were dedicated atthat time.

(01:25:24):
it was the ministry is uh to go back.
I don't belong to the congregation, which I served for all those years.
I belong to a church and apostles were Ralph Tows is my pastor, a Fort Wayne grad now beenserving there 25 years.
It's been a blessing.

(01:25:45):
it's no, it's.
God called me and well, he put me in there and.
We had our ups and there was a time when we considered leaving the Senate back in theearly 70s.
In fact, the the elders, 11 of them, 10 of them voted to leave.
Now they knew everything because they had been talking with their pastor and I felt that.

(01:26:11):
The conflict in leaving may have been pretty great and we voted to go in a state ofprotest.
That's another long story.
I want to get into that.
In fact, had Jack Price come to our home for dinner as the congregation was going to meetand he urged us to go into the state of protest, which itself has an interesting history.

(01:26:36):
But we and I'm glad I'm grateful for what happened in 7374 7X and what happened there madeit possible for us to be a part of Missouri Synod and to still be happy with what we are.
Obviously we are imperfect Synod, but I'm happy with the leadership that we have and.

(01:26:59):
uh So it's it's a situation that God has been a blessing.
To me.
And I hope that in a part I've been a blessing to Saint Paula Brookfield and uh SaintPeter of Rhineland, Ontario.
That's another story, but.
Yeah, well thank you for sitting down with me uh today and it's been really fun goingthrough all this stuff and learning a lot of really interesting history that I think

(01:27:29):
should give some encouragement to the younger pastors and laymen of today who still haveto fight the good fight, stand on the scriptures.
You know, we never got into SOC, State of the Church, where indeed Cameron McKenzie, notthe present teacher, but his dad was involved in that.

(01:27:49):
He was real close to me in Detroit when I was in Canada.
That's another story.
In fact, we we acknowledge at the Fort Wayne Seminary recently, and the RAS said to me,why don't you send me all the information from the State of the Church so I can write
about it?
I was the secretary.
the state of the church, but that's another story.

(01:28:12):
Yeah, well, there's a lot of history there.
Do you even know about the state of the church?
The State of the Church.
This was a publication.
No, it was a meeting.
was a gathering of people.
It was in 1961.
Hotel Schrader in Milwaukee.

(01:28:33):
400 people met already then.
Now you that's an interest.
What brought that about?
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
So this was a meeting of
of how we get, how did we get that many together at Hotel Schrader?

(01:28:54):
That was interesting.
And Mackenzie gave a paper, Rommelzer gave a paper, Sigbecker gave a paper, Beck gave apaper.
That was, and we had, how the WALP was happening to the WALP, the league.
You look to me as if, that was.

(01:29:14):
Yeah, because the Walther League was being hijacked by liberals.
That's another story.
All these stories that we could get into.
ah Well, we'll have to have you on another time if you're up for it.
said your wife came from the LCR Lutheran Church of the Reformation Lutheran ChurchesState of the Church

(01:29:39):
Okay, well see I should know that.
Yeah, my wife grew up in the ELS.
My father-in-law was ordained in the ELS, went to Bethany ah in Mankato and then he leftthe ELS.
in the late 90s, uh early 2000s, early 2000s joined the LCR Lutheran Churches of theReformation.

(01:30:02):
my wife was confirmed at Gethsemane Lutheran Church in uh North Sioux City, South Dakota.
And then now uh she is obviously a member at Trinity in New Haven, uh Missouri.
uh
So yeah, we had a lot of, she and I started our relationship off with a lot of talks aboutchurch fellowship, if you could imagine.

(01:30:32):
Yeah, so, but it's made for a lot of fruitful theological dialogue uh in my household.
I was real close with Cam Mackenzie and Hal Romo.
Yeah, and so his son Cameron Mackenzie, would he be junior or the second, was a prophet.

(01:30:56):
I had him as a prophet for a wedding.
He was an usher at your wedding.
Okay.
Well, he was, he's one of my favorite teachers.
He's a really, really good, really good teacher and faithful, faithful uh confessor ofGod's word.
So.
And how he became a pastor, that whole story where he went to school.

(01:31:17):
Yeah, it is.
Yeah, it's a lot of interesting stories.
Well, thanks again for having for for uh for being here.
And yeah, you've been listening to Christendom and the world brought to you by ChristianNews.
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