The Schlie Brothers: Digging Deeper Than the Clichés

In this episode of Christendom and the World, we’re joined by twin brothers and pastors Joseph and Jesse Schlie for a thoughtful conversation on the rise of Christian clichés and what they reveal about the modern church.

Together, they reflect on the pastoral call to speak clearly, confront sin, and preach Christ with conviction. From shallow phrases to deep theology, the Schlie pastors urge both pastors and hearers to trade feel-good slogans for faithful doctrine — and to rediscover the power of true, confessional preaching.

 

The Didymus Podcast:

https://open.spotify.com/show/6gxSfIqYXAYdpNAiub9XJI?si=ce9f444d66fc4712 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
thing that just kind of sends it out.
It's like an RSS feed.
We use Lipsyn and then we post it on Lipsyn and then Lipsyn.
Except YouTube.
Because it would just post the audio on YouTube and every morning I'd have to wake up at3am and post the video.
Because it just did the audio.

(00:21):
So I took YouTube off of Lipsyn.
So I had to do YouTube.
Yeah it is.
So are you done screwing up?
Yeah, mom's phone wasn't working so we to get this Oh, are we ready now?
Are we currently recording?
Yes.
We are recording Christendom in the World brought to by Christian News.

(00:46):
Is that right?
Yeah.
That's what we're recording?
Yeah.
And in this segment we have Pastor Jesse, this, Jesse and Joe Schley, the Schley Bros.
uh And I'd like to okay, so Jesse and Joe you guys have your you're kind of puttingtogether your own podcast called what baby talk

(01:08):
That's right.
It's the Didymus podcast, so that's as creative as we can be.
So the Greek word for twin.
It's pretty new, but we just kind of talk about...
We originally were like, maybe we'll talk about certain catechetical things that could beuseful for our congregation.

(01:31):
It's going to probably be the primary audience.
People in our church would listen to it.
But then we got a little bit bored with that and we couldn't find the right direction.
So we switched over to a of like a
rip off of Brian Wolf Mueller's critiquing Christian cliches on issues, cetera.
And now we're just kind of doing something similar where we talk about certain clichestatements that are either evangelical statements that you hear a lot or sometimes

(01:56):
uniquely kind of Lutheran cliches tossed around.
we just did one on sin is sin, which is kind like the cousin of we're all sinners.
Yeah.
usually is a way, unfortunately now to like minimize sin.
Yeah, as opposed to universally condemning people and then like Romans three, it's justkind of like a well, don't say that that particular thing is bad.

(02:21):
Just say, oh, everything's bad.
And it's the same degree of badness, even though it isn't all the time.
Yeah, that one was kind of like trying to dumb down a little bit the mortal and venial sincategories, which are Lutheran.
Yeah, but.
it with the right understanding of it.
And we did one on Christian shouldn't judge.
That was our first episode.

(02:41):
Just responding to that statement because you hear that all the time, right?
Well yeah, think when people say Christians shouldn't judge, what they mean is Christiansshouldn't think.
I don't make any judgment.
It should be silent on moral issues.
Yeah.
oh
Do we sound okay?
Everything's fine.
It's not gonna be super cool.
quiet.

(03:03):
Do I sound better now?
Alright, yeah.
His wife says that all the shley men talk like they have marbles in their mouths, so youcan't understand a word.
What you saying?
Yeah, you do.
A little bit.
I think there's some charm to it.
You guys are charming folks.
You're not too bad looking.
I mean...
Yeah, no, no.

(03:25):
Don't worry about it.
Okay, so I want to talk about...
I won't go into the details of all the settings just to spare any embarrassment.
But when I first met you guys, so I tell this story all the time.
So here's the thing that I really love about St.
Louis seminary guys, guys who went to St.

(03:47):
Louis seminary, is that they are really, they seem to be really positive.
They always wanna like pray.
They seem to be like more like in a situation, like hey, let's pray, you know?
uh And they always say bless you, you know?
Like peace, you know?
And I think they mean it, you know?

(04:08):
I've gotten to know a lot of guys from the St.
Louis Seminary since I've been down here.
I was in Iowa before and we had our token St.
Louis guys, but it was mainly a bunch of cynical Fort Wayne guys.
Anyway, when I came down to Missouri, I was at some kind of gathering somewhere.

(04:36):
I heard a sermon and the sermon was not very good.
It was just
It was memorable.
Memorable, but it wasn't very good.
I think that he's capable of preaching a good sermon.
And he seemed like he was a good guy.
You know, nothing against.
the preacher, but just the sermon wasn't good.

(04:57):
Didn't teach anything, didn't make any assertions, didn't preach the gospel clearly, anddidn't even really preach the law very clearly at all.
And, but the worst part was, one thing I loved about seminary was if I heard a bad sermonin chapel, which I heard plenty of bad sermons in chapel, you go to coffee hour, you can

(05:17):
find some friends and critique, and then just kind of commiserate together of like thetorture, you know, the kind of PTSD that you're in now.
You know post traumatic sermon disorder, you know or PT BSD post traumatic bad sermondisorder, you know, and you kind of like find You know solace in in one another's misery

(05:39):
as you critique it and then iron sharpens iron all that Well after this though, everyone'sjust like hi good to see you and everyone's just so happy Ice cream social everyone's so
happy.
I was like
I mean, I'm usually happy when people are happy, it reminded me of that song by the BeeGees.

(06:00):
I started to cry and started the whole world laughing.
I was just like, this is just come on.
Why are you guys so happy all time?
That wasn't a good sermon.
What's going on here?
So I started kind of missing my like cynical Fort Wayne crowd, you know?
And so I look and I look over at this table and I see these guys with these little cynicalsmirks on their faces.

(06:23):
And by cynical, I mean very loosely, you know, but they're just sitting there like...
And oh I go up to the table and I say, what seminary you guys go to?
And they look at me and they say, Fort Wayne.
And there were a couple of the guys that are with you.
And I was like, what'd you think of the sermon?

(06:43):
And then they just start critiquing the sermon.
I'm like, all right, I'm sitting here.
So, and that's not that, not that I like take delight.
I don't care who, who the preacher is.
Um, when I hear a sermon, that's not like good, that doesn't teach, that doesn't have thelaw and the gospel clearly preached.
It kind of bugs me.
Like it's enough to ruin my day.

(07:03):
I remember that sermon to this day.
You
we don't have to get into the sermon.
But it started a beautiful friendship.
so, so, so anyway, so that's how that's how I will always remember that sermon, especiallyin what it led to in some good conversations with my friends.
The uh Joe's I'm just going to Jesse and Joseph sleep.

(07:26):
Yeah, I finally do know.
Although I have to say this morning when you woke me up.
I thought you were Jesse.
I gently woke you up.
I thought you had earplugs in.
didn't realize that you like a psycho listen to podcasts.

(07:47):
Are you listening to yourself talk?
No, I can't do that.
No, that would probably trigger something.
I don't know.
uh
gently knocking at the door to wake you up.
And you thought it was Jesse apparently.
Yeah, I think I just when I think Schlee I think Jesse, you know, sorry, you know, itrhymes, you know So yeah, anyway, sorry okay, so uh So tell me about some of these

(08:15):
cliches.
Let's talk about some of these cliches that you guys have been talking about or thatyou're
Right.
Well, we got a whole big list going and the one we thought we could maybe talk about todaysince it's three pastors would be ones on preaching.
Okay.
given how we first minute, you know, an ode to that.

(08:35):
Yeah.
So um we have
A bunch of other ones written down.
I can't remember some of them off top of my head, but, uh it's a, you don't have to go tochurch to go to heaven.
Uh, that's too Catholic.
I'm just glad they're going to church somewhere.
It's a celebration of life.
Um, it's a relationship, not a religion, stuff like that.

(08:57):
Yeah.
And then some Lutheran ones in particular too, like the sin is sin one is kind of aLutheran one.
uh
for people, not for doctrine.
We were gonna we were gonna phrase that one as it doesn't matter what you believe as longas you believe in Jesus Yeah, which I've heard that before I have this one
Don't you ever just talk to God?

(09:17):
Have you ever heard that one before?
That's a critique on written prayers.
yeah.
Or like, how does the spirit work?
Yeah.
Like, the misinterpretation of the spirit gives life and let her kills.
Would they take that to mean you shouldn't write anything down?
Some they pray really bad prayers.
Yeah.
Right.
So we have a list of a bunch of them, but we have some ones about preaching, too.

(09:38):
Yeah.
The one that we wrote down is preaching about the gospel is not preaching the gospel.
OK.
So, and there were some that were gonna kind of segue off from that, but that was thefirst one.
do you start with kind of, with maybe there's a little hint of truth that they're tryingto get at?
a lot of them there are, there is a hint of truth in most of them, you know?

(09:58):
That's why the statement has been so like, you know, long lasting normally.
Because there's a little bit of truth there.
It's just twisted their own.
me take a shot at how that could be true or how someone might mean by it.
So a type of sermon that I've heard several times is where they will talk about, and maybethis isn't quite the same thing, but they'll talk about mission work or being an

(10:25):
evangelist, like doing evangelism, witnessing to people.
But they'll never clearly preach the gospel to the people who are in the views.
They'll just say that it's like the gospel immediately turns into a task that you now haveto go and share with people.
Right.
And if you're not doing it enough, then you're not being a good enough Christian.

(10:45):
So you might hear, yeah, Jesus died.
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.
ah And now you get to go and share this with everyone, which of course is true.
But when that predominates the sermon and that's all you ever hear and you're neveractually
a clear instruction that well, Jesus is still your Savior.
And so I think that that is why a lot of people have kind of fallen for this um cliche ofpreaching about the gospel rather than preaching the gospel, that that's bad.

(11:18):
By that they mean like, you know, that song I think maybe came out in the 70s.
I can't even remember how it goes, but I love to tell the story.
Have you ever heard that song?
I love to
the story but it never actually tells the story.
Yeah, it talks about talking about the gospel, talks about the gospel but doesn't actuallyexplain what the gospel is.

(11:41):
It would be the same kind of concept.
think Walter's got a thesis on it about how the way that you preach faith is not by justdescribing how you should believe, but the object of what your faith should be.
And that's true.
But sometimes so yeah, so like Walter has that statement where you can preach a very goodsermon on faith without even mentioning faith and that's true But I do think sometimes We

(12:08):
can take that so far to just then so then if you're like never ever talking about faithYou're never naming faith my name and explaining what faith is because you want to like
have every single one of your sermons Meet up to that supposed standard that Walter gaveWell, then what you end up with is this sort of uh
ex oper operato, you know, that is, know, just the doing of the act of uh just saying theright jargon words and, without teaching people how faith actually lays hold of this and

(12:40):
applies it to themselves.
So, um so anyway, so that's that's kind of my my take on it.
But you but it seems like it seems like that that has become a cliche that says that ifyou are explaining what the gospel is, you're not
Or any doctrine to like not just explaining the atonement, but talking about a topic fromthe Bible.

(13:06):
Someone's going to say, you're just talking about, I don't know, the gospel.
You're talking about God's word, but you're not preaching God's word because it doesn'thave this.
You know, in every single moment, a for you emphasis.
But when you think about like the problems that we've encountered, um, not just in thechurch, but in the world, it's think about the statement like, you know, God loves you.

(13:27):
That's proclamation.
Jesus loves you.
ah
If you don't ever define what the love of God actually is, people just insert their owndefinition.
And I think you look at kind of Christianity in the United States.
And what do you think that the larger problem is?
Do people think that if they believe there is a God, do they think that God doesn't lovethem?

(13:48):
No.
I think they think that God loves them.
But what have they done with the definition?
They've just hollowed it out and put their own thing in there.
Because there hasn't been enough of an emphasis on how you also need to preach about thegospel.
You also need to preach doctrine and then apply it.
Like we get the criticism of, you you hear a sermon where it's like on Christmas and halfthe sermon was describing how stables were built in the first century or something like

(14:14):
that.
And you're like, yeah, that's, that's problematic because they didn't move from any kindof
You know, here's the historical fact to what is even the doctrine that is encapsulated bythat detail uh that needs to then be applied.
Yeah.
Right.
But you got to do all the things right.
There can't be an over emphasis on on any one of them.
They all need to be together.

(14:34):
It's like people think that it's more noble to be concrete than to be abstract.
So to be abstract is to speak of things, know, speak of like kind of the invisible thingsor the logical things, you know, that's abstract.

(14:55):
So you explain the atonement and so you have to explain what the wrath of God is, what sinis, what Christ to nature
and Christ, you know, and you're explaining what divinity is, what is humanity, and sothese are kind of, you're speaking in the abstract because you have to explain these
things, but you can go too far with being too abstract where you're never getting concreteand you're going over people's heads and you're just talking about, you know, you know,

(15:23):
there's no reciprocity in the genus myostaticum or something and, you know, Hannah knowswhat that means.
ah But it goes way over your head, right, and then it's not actually concrete and down
to earth.
The problem though is that people want to be so concrete that they throw out anyabstraction.
My brother Steven and I were joking about this a while back where you people just want tobe concrete all the time and they don't want to be abstract and so I mean if you were

(15:50):
concrete and not abstract you wouldn't be able to communicate.
You would just go like uh uh uh uh you know it it abstraction is not necessarily bad it'sjust simply
it's like vocabulary, you know, it's words, it's logic, it's how things fit together andyou have to explain that.

(16:12):
But what this leads to when you want to be totally concrete is it leads to this just kindof experientialism, right?
So the atonement, for example, instead of unpacking it and saying, yeah, Jesus died on thecross, why?
to save us from our sins, he took the place under the law of God, took our place under thelaw of God, bore God's wrath and judgment, satisfied the wrath of God, fulfilled the law

(16:40):
for us, and he credits that righteousness to us.
Like that kind of...
explanation, expounding on the different parts of it, a lot of people will look at that asjust like, well, you're just being highfalutin, you know?
And instead, they want some like real personal kind of gospel, but that personal gospelthat you end up getting is just this purely experiential kind of subjective experience.

(17:04):
not informed by God's word.
The whole point, think, so in Walther's pastoral theology when he talks about preachingand he goes into the five-fold use thing, which I don't know, did you and your brother
talk about that or not really?
James, when he was here.
Yeah, yeah, we talked.
We didn't really go.
They were just more talking about, think, like the overreaction.
Okay.

(17:28):
So, you know, from Paul's letter to Timothy that the scriptures are given for instructionfor rebuke for correction for training and righteousness.
And then also he says, says elsewhere for comfort.
Yeah.
And so the.
At least from the time of like Lutheran orthodoxy.

(17:48):
So Gerhard's got stuff on this for sure.
But Walter definitely just copies all of Gerhard for his, this is how he teachespreaching.
He talks about the division of law and gospel, but when he tells guys how to like thinkabout the organization of their sermon, he spends a lot of time in.
Walter does in his pastoral theology going through, you need to think about theapplications of the Bible.

(18:10):
And he says in your sermon, which particular application to scripture should you spend themost time on?
Which one do think he says of those five?
teaching.
Yeah.
He says like amount wise, it's like you need to lay the foundation of the doctrine andexplain it so that then you can accurately apply it.
Because if you don't give the explanation, it's like the applications are floating aroundin midair and the people are applying them in any way they want.

(18:36):
Yeah.
Cause there wasn't any foundation given.
And I think that is a pretty accurate characterization of a lot of the kind of preachingthat we hear today.
Um, hence, you know, just go
read a Luther sermon and note how long it is.
Go read it.
I always joke with my people that Walter, in one of his sermons, he says uh in the intro,permit me for the next hour to explain to you.

(19:00):
It's gonna be an hour long, right?
And nowadays we're kind of used to like 15 minutes, but also in the context of, the pastorbetter make me feel a certain way in the sermon.
Well, now he's got to spend this much time with pure application, but what's suffering isthat he hasn't been able to explain things long enough.

(19:21):
being able to explain, what does the Bible say?
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
You have to actually know what God's word says to be able to apply it accurately.
um So that statement, preaching about the gospel is not preaching the gospel is kind ofthe same thing as saying, you know, there's preaching and there's teaching.
Right.
I think in our notes, we were also going to reflect on like the, how m

(19:44):
Some guys will be like, I don't do that in the pulpit.
I do that in Bible class.
That was this like, some topical thing and they'll be like, well, I don't talk about thatin the pulpit.
I'll talk about it in Bible class as if there's these two avenues that are like, here'sthe place for teaching.
Here's the place for preaching.
Even the Bible says that the word of God, what's the purpose of it?
Well, one of the purposes for teaching.

(20:05):
So when you're in the pulpit, what should you be doing?
Teaching.
And the people, mean, the guys that use that kind of statement or that idea, I think it'stwofold.
It's either that.
They think it's too hard to explain the particular nuances of something from the pulpit,probably because they don't think they have enough time, but they would in Bible class.
Or it's more interactive.

(20:25):
Or that they think the particular application of God's word is just too personal, tooheavy to be saying in a broad stroke when you really intended it at a certain person.
you're like, well, I would say that, but only in my office to them when I'm calling themin to deal with a certain pastoral disciplinary issue.

(20:46):
tend to find that people that say those sorts of things aren't actually doing that.
Exactly, yeah.
That's what was gonna say.
never happening.
You're not teaching.
Bible class and you're definitely not doing it with your people in your office to exhortthem away from those sins.
So there's just no teaching going on.
So I think it's kind of a cop-out to say that, but it is the cousin of preaching about thegospel is not preaching the gospel because it implies that teaching really isn't supposed

(21:10):
to be that much a part of preaching.
And if it's not, then where is all this teaching that people need to have about God'swe're going to take place?
Yeah, well, there's also like a disconnect then between the pulpit and the office or theliving room or whatever.
I find it very helpful when I focus on really teaching doctrine and addressing issues thatthe people have to deal with and that the world is throwing at them and explaining it

(21:40):
from, critiquing it from a biblical standpoint and giving them some frame of reference andthat foundation.
that when I'm having conversations with either my parishioners or other people in thecommunity that I can refer back to what I've been preaching.

(22:01):
it kind of helps, it helps you throughout your week then too.
Sometimes you can literally just give a person the sermon.
You're like, I just preached on this.
And they're like, was on vacation pastor.
read this.
And then you can talk to me about it some more.
And it might answer some of your questions.
you can do that.
also, it's sort of when you it helps you uh keep your mind focused on what on thesetalking points and how like when something's fresh in your mind, you just wrote it down

(22:30):
and you just preached on it.
You want to keep talking about it.
It's kind of weird that you would preach your sermon and then be like, yeah, well.
Moving on to the next thing, and then now back to kind of like regular conversation.
Like, no, that should, so I mean, this gets to another cliche that you guys were talkingabout then is, ah you had mentioned this to me before that what preaching should be a

(22:55):
conversation.
And my response to that is, well, yeah, it.
All these statements are like, there's a little bit of applied the
I know maybe do we do we want to say more about the
I didn't have somebody in Bible class the other day that was like, boy, they're alwayskind of saying things like that.

(23:15):
Boy, it would be great if everybody was just here.
Why would they say something like that?
Because they're like, well, particular things that are said in the context of Bible class,maybe with that particular group are very direct.
They're very clear.
They're very like unfettered.
They're just God's truth spoken openly.
like, wouldn't it be nice if everyone could hear that?
It's like, yeah, but they can, and they don't have to come to Bible class to hear it.

(23:39):
can take all that stuff you just did.
in the sermon.
They're coming to the sermon.
I also like, this is a distinction that I kind of struggled with when I first um got tothe parable.
And my sermons were a lot shorter.
Actually, I read a lot of your dad's sermons.
I never met him before.
But reading his preaching helped me in a lot of ways, in particular, thinking about howyou should teach from the pulpit.

(24:00):
So our preacher was really short sermons.
They were kind of like law gospel paradigm.
Like I would tell people they did something bad.
They know where it's kind of going, because at the end I'm going to tell them it's allright and they're forgiven.
You could mention any sin.
Like you could, you know, you could call out divorce and you could speak very pointedly toit, but they just kind of knew in the paradigm at the
they're gonna be off hook anyway.
But when I chan- I never got a me- I never got a like a nasty comment, never got anyanonymous mail, but when I started to think of preaching more in terms of teaching what

(24:28):
the Bible says about a topic and then applying law and gospel as I did that, if a textcame up about divorce and Jesus says like, okay, here's where it's permissible, here's
where it's not, what am I gonna say in the pulpit?
Here's what Jesus says about divorce, here's where it's permissible, here's where it'snot, here's what he says will happen if you do this without his permission.
And after that, do you think I got any anonymous mail?

(24:51):
Yeah.
I bet you do.
When your sermons became more like Rolf Preuss's sermons, then you started...
trying to get a mask.
No, it but you also do get from the faithful, you know, we were just talking about thisthe other day, like, um it's always for some reason nowadays, when you speak to some

(25:13):
element of God's law, clearly from the pulpit, that's when you normally get
Comments from the faithful that are like thank you for saying that thing pastor Andnormally it wasn't because I tried to apply it to an individual and said you there are you
there?
Which is proclamation you you you I just kind of said here's what God says about thisthing, right?
And if you read again like a lot of Walter sermons, that's how he preaches I was justreading one of his sermons on we had that judge not text right and Walter preaches a great

(25:45):
sermon it could have been preached like
in our pulpits today, because he goes through and like just the intro about how peopleabuse the statement to uh promote sinful living.
said not to judge.
And in fact, he actually uses it in response to all the people who say that you shouldn'tbe such a stickler about doctrine.
Right.

(26:05):
They call the conservative confessional Lutherans, they were saying you're judgmental.
And Walters just explains for like seven minutes in the sermon why that's a falseapplication of the passage.
It's very helpful.
the fact that like, of course that strengthens your faith to know what God's word saysstrengthens your faith.
I once heard this comment in the conversation at a, uh, it was a group of pastors and,and, uh, one guy kind of said at the end, um, he was a retired guy, but he kind of said

(26:33):
like you.
Same thing.
It's not a good sermon unless I heard the words for you.
Now was ironic because we were reading something from the formula of a Concord where thewords for you were not mentioned the entire time.
And I asked him, I
said, what we just studied today in the formula of concord, did that strengthen yourfaith?
Was that refreshing to hear what God's word teaches about these things?

(26:54):
He was like, of course.
I was like, do you understand what I'm trying to say here?
But if- but that doesn't belong in the pulpit.
what he would say.
doesn't belong in the pulpit.
Like, well, then why does it not belong in the place where the pastor is primarilysupposed to instruct the flock?
It's a very...
It's like the pulpit becomes, and I agree that, I mean, there's something sacred about thepulpit set apart for the proclamation of God's word, but the proclamation includes

(27:20):
teaching.
There's this divorce.
I think we can trace this to like the neo-orthodox.
You see this with like, know, Rolf Bultmann and even Barth with his...
counter with...
yeah, totally where you separate the karygma.
So the preaching from the from the didactic.
Yep, and You know speaking of you know, I was talking about things being just superconcrete You know reminds me of this of Fertis I'm being a theologian of the cross and

(27:51):
he's making a big deal about how you know It's not about this is not a book about the thetheology about the cross or something like that or about a theology of the cross But it's
on being a theologian of
So it's all very, you know, so he says we can't answer Jesus's question from the cross.
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
We can only die with him and like find the answer.

(28:16):
It's purely experiential and it is very attractive to the...
the the enthusiast in us right this is why eastern orthodoxy is is so attractive becauseof all their mysticism and then they add to it this kind of veneer of tradition and
masculinity and beards and stuff you know and it's like hey all right but then they youknow they're still acting like they're still acting like you know women you know like

(28:44):
these these men who try to who think that they're being so masculine in that way um butanyway that's another issue i could go on
That parallels with what we're talking about.
mean, like, think about in our context, the Missouri City.
I'm not talking about Hannah, not like Hannah.
Hannah doesn't act that way.
Yeah, she's she's one of the good ones.

(29:04):
anyway, so.
It's a right answer when we like broached the topic of why women can't be pastors and inthe Missouri Senate today I think if you asked a random lay person why not they are gonna
give you the answer because the Bible says no.
Yeah, but obviously Proclaim that's the proclamation.
Yeah, God says no, but there's a doctrine behind it Yeah, and if you don't hold on to thedoctrine that's behind it what's gonna happen the proclamation?

(29:31):
Yeah, that's right.
It's not gonna amount to anything
what are what what is the Christian life is?
Yes It's all about having that confidence in your salvation having a good conscience aconscience free from blame as we prayed in the hymn last night But God also wants to renew
our minds He he desires to conform our minds to the you know set your minds on thingsabove right?

(29:55):
So it's you know There's this response to why women can't be pastors where you know I'veyou've probably heard this where a guy will say something like
could be.
you know a lot of women would make really good past
but I guess God's just a sexist or something you know like God says no so I guess it'slike no there's as if God's yes God is beyond our reason okay we can't subject him to our

(30:17):
reason but that doesn't mean that God is irrational like it doesn't mean that God has nolike logic there's no
They would that to other things that they could see more clearly like, you know, I knowthat plenty of women would make really good dads.
Oh, that's right.
But it's true.
Well, I actually, my wife and I were talking about that exact statement the other day ofthe whole like, oh, women would make great pastors.

(30:41):
It's just God says no.
And I was like, dear, how do you think you would do with some, a man comes to you toconfess his sin to you privately?
and you have to absolve him.
How do you think that would go, that conversation in private confession?
She's like, or even take the other one.
You can have a couple who's living together in sin and they come in and they wanna, Idon't know, they wanna get married two years from now.

(31:04):
How do you think you would do in that context of telling them you can't unless you repentand so on and so forth?
I was like, do you think that that's something that God made you to do?
And she was like, no.
It's terrible.
Well, and also, I I'm sympathetic to these, women who are, I think, like a good woman, andI know my wife, I include my wife in this, but I know several good women who, they don't

(31:33):
want to be nags, right?
They know like, by nature, they know they want to...
show deference to a leader and show respect.
And they want to do their duty, they want to serve in that way, and they don't want to benags.
And there's a nervousness that comes that kind of goes with it that if they do have tothen step up and be a Zipporah and say, you're a bridegroom of blood to me, as she said to

(32:02):
Moses, which sometimes is necessary.
They don't want to be that that girl right they don't like do you want to talk?
Do you want to like nag your husband or you're not married yet?
when you get married Are you just looking forward to just kind of bossing them around?
Yeah, okay.
Well, I guess never mind really wants to know I'm just kidding.

(32:23):
No, I mean that
context would be it would be shame it's shameful in the situation for that to have toresult for that to have to
Yeah, now they're my exactly because there might be a time when I mean there are timeswhen my wife has to call me to account, you know, she doesn't enjoy it at all.
Not to say that I enjoy doing that with her, but it is more natural for me to be like, no,this is what we're doing.

(32:47):
scenes in the hammer of God when that woman goes to that pastor and she's like in hisoffice she's like I really don't even know if this is appropriate for me to be doing but
you got to quit doing this thing.
It's like telling stories and then she's rebuking him for it but it's like it's alegitimate thing that's leading the flock astray and she's just like you know.
But that's the point that I was trying to make that.

(33:08):
Aquila like Priscilla and Aquila.
out of like God's judgment coming upon a situation where he allows somebody who's normallyin a subordinate position to speak clearly to an issue that doesn't give credence to the
idea that that individual should now be in a position of authority.

(33:30):
It's rather a reflection that that's not the way it's supposed to actually be.
Yeah.
So.
There's a certain, like, my wife takes, so I was kind of getting that before, is when Ifinally make a decision, my wife takes comfort in that.
There's a certain security that she has in that.
Oh, maybe I can, here's a lady over here.
When you're, when you're a boyfriend, like you guys are just trying to decide what to do,like, and he just makes the decision.

(33:56):
Do you prefer that?
Yeah, you do.
When you have to make the decision and you're put on the spot, I know, yeah, you don'tlike that.
Yeah.
And that's natural.
That's normal.
has created it.
Now some women are going to be more more uh decisive you know in their nature by theirpersonality.
Fine fine you know there's there's all sorts of different types it's not like they allhave to be like Hannah uh but

(34:20):
Uh, yeah, there's a certain, there's a comfort.
And so this goes kind of going full circle with like when the pastor is explaining stuffwith authority, speaking with authority on things and not just giving you this like, you
know, experience of bad feeling, good.
Doctrine or assertion?
making doctrinal assertions and explaining it from Scripture, that's comforting becausepeople are thinking about this stuff and they don't necessarily have the toolbox to deal

(34:47):
with all this stuff.
And then the pastor comes and he's able to articulate it and they're saying, yeah,exactly, that's what I was trying to say, you know, and that's encouraging.
and sometimes the whole like preaching is only for the proclamation stuff has caused uh acontext to develop where certain things from the Bible are discussed.
So like we've heard this before with the homosexuality thing.

(35:08):
Pastors who were kind of like, well, I don't preach about that because that's not, I'monly preaching to the sins of my people.
You do a whole generation where they never heard a sermon about why homosexuality is badand guess what's happening in the congregation now.
Even if they're not living a homosexual life, they're all giving thumbs up to everybodyaround them who's doing it, which is their
being a party to the sin now, because they never heard about it, because the pastorthought that his law of preaching only needed to address the specific sin that they may or

(35:36):
may not have been committing, as opposed to just preaching the whole counsel of God onthese topics and then applying the word.
Well, and that's maybe another cliche is don't preach to the choir.
And I would say, no, you should preach to the choir.
The choir needs, it's like, I mean, have you ever been in a
director preaches to us all the time.
He's telling us like how to you know uh how to train our voices what how to prepare forsinging and

(36:03):
This one's more like you should only preach to the choir.
Like you should only preach to your people that are there about their specific strugglesand sins.
And you shouldn't be preaching about the sins of people that aren't maybe.
But the people need to be able to understand that those sins that are maybe not happeningin their midst, like in that particular context in church are happening around them in the

(36:24):
world.
You to be able to understand why this is wrong.
Yes.
Well, you read like Luther's sermons.
You know who he like goes after all the time from the pulpit?
The monks, right?
Like the, you know, their idea of piety.
He attacks all the time.
How many monks are sitting in the pew in, in Wittenberg listening to Luther preach?

(36:48):
Zero.
But he's, or even like when he goes after the papacy, right?
And the Pope and the bishops or whatever.
I could see someone today in the Missouri Senate kind of being like, Luther, you should bepreaching against the sins of the people in the pew.
But Luther understands that there's a trickle down effect.

(37:09):
And you have to address sin all over the place.
Yeah, and he understood that because I've often said this, mean, we, three of us went toseminary and at the same time, but we know it's like, there's something like if I could
get, if I could get down with the whole celibacy thing and like, you know, worksrighteousness and stuff, which wouldn't be that hard, frankly, you know, I would just, I

(37:32):
mean, it would be hard for me as a Christian, you know, but just like as a, as a, as adude, you know, like, okay, yeah.
more sanctified than other people.
Hey, that sounds great.
If I could get down with that monastery, that'd be awesome.
Like hanging with your bros like you get to read all time, you know, and you're kind oftaken care of.

(37:53):
You know, you don't have to talk to people, you don't have to have as many like awkwardconversations, you know, this is like a made up devotion or voc sorry, made up vocation
that
that doesn't have the kind of crosses that, and if you do bathe across, it's just like youdo it to yourself and then you can feel really good.
I mean, that's horrible.
That actually sounds really, really bad for the conscience, because it is, but I get theappeal.

(38:17):
I get the appeal to the flesh.
And Luther understood that.
So even though none of the people in his congregation are.
Monks.
Well, some of them were former monks in them, right?
But also it's still in the culture So I you know if I preach against homosexuality firstof all, there might be someone there struggles that um and or as you said might maybe

(38:40):
there people who watch like Willing grace.
I mean that's long time ago or whatever the show is now every show now, so
Or their loved ones that are struggling with it and they want to be able to understand itfor their sake and you want them to not be able to be condoning sin.
I do understand the appeal of the, you know, cloistering stuff though.

(39:02):
Somebody said to me the other day, like I was talking to them about maybe their son goingto seminary and they're like, well, I don't know if he just, he doesn't know if he likes
people enough.
And I was like, well, I hate.
people.
uh
but no i mean you could still care for people but it's not like you're you're an extrovertand you just love being around people all the time and yeah goes to the same for the same

(39:25):
reason at least i would say in the lutheran church they love the bible right that shouldbe the reason i'd buy so the money
No.
I think there's an appeal to a safe, secure, like you can, it's not that hard to findcontentment in kind of middle, you know, middle class life, you know, and then just being

(39:52):
part of, you know, this is why I don't like it that we.
I understand calling it all church work because they're including the kind of non-ordainedoffices in the church.
And, know, I'm not putting that down at all.
think we very much need good teachers.
um But there is something, I've always been bugged by the kind of throwing it all intojust church work and that it becomes...

(40:22):
the appeal I think there's a great appeal to uh just kind of being part of being part ofthis effort, which I get that.
It's good to have camaraderie.
But maybe that's I think a lot of guys are maybe looking for that camaraderie.
A lot of good things, things that are like I enjoy the camaraderie.

(40:43):
uh
hanging out with, getting to know other people, other Christians who are working together.
But yeah, don't think, I'm not saying most, but I don't think that everyone goes toseminary just because he's interested in theology.
I wish that were the case.

(41:05):
That's why we have
camp.
right now as we speak, actually, this is going to come out while we're still having thecamp.
But hopefully we'll record a couple more episodes maybe with with my friend, Edward, ourfriend, Edward, or Edwards.
He's British, so it's pronounced Edward.
But ah anyway, but but this this week, you know, we're we're doing this this camp forthese kids.

(41:28):
And that's part of our goal is to get them to think theologically and to think throughthis stuff.
So that if they go to seminary, they're
going because they're interested in theology, not just because they want to do churchwork, whatever that means, you know?
I mean, again, not to knock church work.
I mean, I think that to the pure, all things are pure, but I don't know.
mean, I just, you know, like some people might say, well, I want to serve.

(41:50):
Well, okay, you can serve God in many ways.
You know, you got to be interested in theology.
You got to love it.
You got to love God's word.
And if you don't, if you get like bored with doctrinal conversations and say, well, I justwant to have relationships with people.
Don't be a pastor for the love of your soul.
uh
would open people's ears more to appreciating and desiring good preaching if they had atheological mind that wanted to have the scriptures explained to them and not just

(42:22):
proclaimed to them, which kind of brings us back to what we were talking about before.
And you wanted to talk about...
By the way, real quick, I'm not saying that we want a bunch of eggheads either.
Like we do need people who are personable, but...
In order to apply the Bible correctly, have to love doctrine.
have to know the doctrine and you have to love it.
Before you can get to the second table of the law, which talks about loving your neighbor,you gotta get to the first table of law.

(42:43):
So, anyway, sorry, Joe, go ahead.
I was just going to say you wanted to talk about uh This is good with the personableness.
The preaching should be a conversation.
Yeah, you wanted to segue into that a bit I think we've talked about the kind of substanceof preaching is what we were talking about.
This is stylistically, but they're all related right the style of the sermon how it'sdelivered Communicate something related to the subject matter and the substance how they

(43:14):
it's the same with the lexicon
non-electrical dandy thing and just worship in general.
Yeah, I got something to say about that.
Hold on, no, real quick.
Just what were you saying though?
Just finish your thought.
was just saying that like, you know, the preaching should be a conversation cliche.
It certainly fits with the idea that we don't just want eggheads.

(43:34):
Like we do want people who can take the rich theology that is in God's word and be able tocommunicate it to people faithfully.
And I think that's maybe what people are trying to get at.
Yes, I think you're right.
uh
be over their head Guy and my wife was watching all the Jane Austen stuff.
Yeah, I think your wife likes Jane Austen, too But they were watching the Pride andPrejudice where the guys reading the sermon from the pulpit and he's literally like he's

(43:59):
got this massive sermon book and
as a tool.
The use of the statement, uh should be a conversation.
Well, maybe that guy could have used a little bit of that trajectory in his sermondelivery.
Yeah, well, and that's interesting you bring up Mr.
Collins, because he's a perfect example of a guy who is just he's just a charlatan.

(44:23):
He isn't really interested in theology.
He likes to talk about academic part.
So that's not what we're talking about.
We're not talking about when we say we you need to love theology.
We're not saying that you just need to be a bookworm like egghead nerd, because such aperson doesn't necessarily love theology.
He might just love the academic part of it.

(44:43):
So Mr.
Collins in Pride and Prejudice
loves the status of being you know the the of having like Charlotte's Lady Charlotte deBerg or whatever her name is as Catherine yeah it's not Charlotte sorry Catherine de Berg
as your wife.
Pride and Prejudice too.

(45:03):
Do you like Pride and Prejudice?
No you don't.
All right well.
We need about your loss.
I've seen all of them.
No, I'm just kidding.
I read the book though because I was in love with my wife So I had to read the book forher sake.
It's like her favorite book anyway, uh but Mr.
Collins with Lady Catherine de Berg He he likes the status of having her as his patronessand being part of kind of aristocratic society and the academic part of it and the kind of

(45:34):
Formality of it sort of fits in with that
She's my favorite character, by the way.
Because I love the line when she says, if I had learned to play the piano, I know it wouldhave been great.
That's like a Michael Scott line, that's awesome.
I missed that.
This is the kind of guy who doesn't tell people he goes to seminary, but he says I go tograd school.

(45:58):
Exactly!
ah Yeah, that's right.
Oh man, that's okay.
Anyways, sorry.
how do we get in the topic?
Okay.
Yeah.
So you're talking about like, yeah, conversation being personable and not just being likea Mr.
Collins.
Yeah.

(46:18):
And like, I would say that being personal, like there's no one more personable than Godwho speaks, you know, so
Start with scripture.
if you, I mean this goes with whether you're a pastor or not, like do you want to havebetter social skills?
Read the Bible more and pray more.

(46:38):
That will help you.
It'll humble you.
um It'll strengthen your faith, the word of God will not your exercise of it.
It's not some opera operatum kind of thing.
um But but but the word of God strengthens you.
It makes you more confident.
It gives you things to talk about.

(46:58):
You know, there's no there are no better things to talk about.
And yet maybe at first you're going to be a little you know, you'll be like the guy comingback into the cave like in Plato's allegory, the cave when you seen the light and stuff.
and he's just kind of an egghead.
You have to go through egghead stages, but that's...
we all do it, you know?

(47:19):
I mean, we're running a camp with a bunch of teenagers.
They're...
they're...
you know, that's how they are.
They're kind of like...
they're sort of like...
They go between, like to use C.S.
Lewis's uh analogy of a teenager is always going back and forth between a trousered apeand an urban blockhead.

(47:40):
But eventually you're able to get your stride and get some grip and mature.
uh And that's where we have to meet people where they are and not just like make, like theone thing that really bugs
me when I was in seminary was my interest in theology and interest in the theologicalissues that are being talked about in whether in church history or in exegesis or in the

(48:09):
dogmatics and in practical application.
ah sometimes was looked at with like, I'm trying to be some big hotshot academic, youknow, and I'm not, just, I just look, these are important topics and they're practical.
Now at the time, I'm sure I was immature, you know, I was young, but I think one of thecoolest things I remember being kind of,

(48:36):
a bit insecure about it because I was young, I was in seminary, was zealous and yeah okayI guess I'm not really...
I have a lot to learn you know when it comes to not just overwhelming people withtheological conversations you know.
And then I remember uh talking to Dr.
Stevenson.
We were taking a walk together uh and you know he's like...

(49:00):
uh
the old bishop's place and I haven't seen him in-
time, you know, he'd tell me all the...
he's such a wonderful guy.
was, he was, and he, what he said to me, I was 22 years old and my wife was pregnant withour first child.
And I said, um, I guess, uh, I guess now that I am gonna be a dad, you know, I shouldprobably start acting more mature than he's, than Dr.

(49:26):
Stevens said.
Oh
just act your age, you know, and he just said like, no, it's fine.
You know, you're, you're, you're 22.
That's fine.
Just be yourself and you'll, you'll grow up.
And it was such a fatherly thing for him to say.
And I think that that's something that pastors and preachers and really then everyoneneeds to, they, they, they need to not be like given some kind of like frantic guilt trip.

(49:56):
that they're not meeting up to some standard personality, you know, and all thispersonable stuff, make sure you're conversational.
Yeah, okay, there's truth in that, but don't neglect your studies.
Don't neglect the word of God.
Talk theology.
If you can get people to talk, and then like, talking theology, again, is not sitting anddiscussing why there's no, it's not necessarily sitting and discussing why there's no

(50:20):
reciprocity in the genus myostaticum.
Hannah, why is there no reciprocity in the genus myostaticum?
uh
She doesn't know.
But Hannah, why does Jesus have to be true God?
She just doesn't like to speak.
She's shy.
Because then he couldn't be our what?

(50:43):
Yeah.
of whispers.
That's great.
couldn't be our savior, right?
That that's talking theology, or just simply talk like applying your everyday, you know,experiences to
what God says, you know?
It could be as simple as like, so and so has, I haven't seen so and so in a while, maybe Ishould go talk to him and encourage him and tell, know, and then like have an answer for

(51:11):
him and, you know, I don't know, let's say someone, his wife leaves him and then you go,and a Christian can go to him and say, hey, God is with you, you know, God instituted
marriage, he gave you your marriage and,
you know, because of sin this stuff happens, but we have refuge in Christ.

(51:31):
know, something like simple like that.
Very simple.
That's a theological conversation.
That's theology.
So anyway, I just get so down, very down on on people denigrating talking theology as ifit's some kind of highfalutin sort of thing that is only for like people with with suits.

(51:52):
You know, with the little like patches on the elbows.
Yeah, I know.
I'm sure you look amazing.
on so
I'm gonna wear my color.
How much more time do we have?
We got about maybe 10 more minutes or eight more minutes.
You wanted to say something about, I brought up the how the way the pastor delivers thesermon.

(52:14):
the idea, you know, sometimes affects even the subject matter or how it's received or whatthings he'll go after.
And that's not always the case, but like if the guy, for example, purposefully leaves thepulpit because he wants to give the impression that this is a casual conversation, I also
find it hard to believe that that individual is going to take serious the task of bro...

(52:38):
come on guys adverbs.
Let's go.
Anyway, sorry take seriously the task.
Sorry.
Don't mean there is very I correct your
Yeah,
It's been bugging me, I've noticed that no one wants to use Ad.
know the first time you heard me preach, corrected my grammar?
I think I said to you, was the sermon about?

(53:08):
saying something about the matter well he's not going to approach the topics he needs tohe's going to preach the whole council of god sure right or is because if you're having a
conversation with somebody and you're trying to be casual that's not normally the settingwhere you are intentionally trying to address the most pressing
Now I'll bring this up to you.
I have actually seen people walk around and actually preach good sermon.

(53:32):
I didn't say it was impossible.
yeah, there you go.
So that, the perp at the point of it's the issue is not like, okay, so we have theserubrics.
So a rubric is the things that you follow and they could be written rubrics.
Like now you bow your head or now you make the sign of the cross, you know, or whatever.
Um, now that people say amen.

(53:52):
Okay.
But then they're also just like permanent rubrics, like a pulpit, a lectern and altar.
They're there to teach.
And I think that that's what people just.
When we get away from the purpose of ceremonies according to article 50 to teach thefaith, right?

(54:13):
And also article 24 of the Augsburg confession.
Yeah, so I think that's kind what you're getting at.
Also, the doctrine doesn't change.
So there's a sense of permanence in preaching, right?
And it's like your personal characteristics, who you are, that you want to...
Sometimes you can't help it just, you know, being part of the way that you preach, butintentionally trying to make it more of the sermon, as opposed to being like, I get up and

(54:40):
I do my job, which is to stand in the spot and say what God has said about stuff and applyit the people, you know.
You need to be replaceable as a pastor in the best sense.
And I do think that the comment of the sermon should be a casual conversation or whateversometimes misses the mark on.
Yeah, but it's about the subs.
It's about the subject matter of God's word.

(55:01):
It's being delivered as opposed to.
don't know.
Yeah.
Well, and that's the idea is that the hidden criticism is that proclaiming pure doctrinecan't be conversational.
Therefore that's not what the sermon should really be about so it's kind of blendingtogether That's why we put it in the same category as preaching about the gospel is not

(55:22):
preaching the gospel Someone's like it's not conversational enough because it's got toomuch Explanation of the scriptures in it and I wouldn't do that in a conversation.
It's like well, I would do that in a conversation Yeah, yeah, my wife and I do that inconversations.
Yeah Oh our kids learn them
the most.
And I might not do that in the conversation necessarily to the extent depending on who I'mtalking to, but whom I'm talking to.

(55:48):
Yeah
Wait till tonight when I- This is be a great experience for you.
If you've got criticisms about how he uses his grammar, just buckle up.
If a person they- You know-
guys are just simple people.
You're people of the land.
Salt of the earth.
You know, morons.

(56:08):
No, I'm just kidding.
Yeah, I know.
You guys are great.
So, gosh, okay, so real quick on the, you mentioned the Lex Cr- So, that's true that,okay, Lex Crdendi, Lex Orandi, Orandi.
So,

(56:29):
Lex credendi is the rule of faith, the rule of what is believed.
So what you teach, what is taught in the church, the official doctrine, the lex orandi isthe rule of praying.
So how you worship, right?
um So, so, so, you know, if you, if you get rid of the pulpit and the altar, that'seventually going to have an effect on what you're actually teaching.

(56:54):
And I agree with all that.
Where I think we need to, and this is a whole nother conversation, where we need to bevery careful with is this notion that the rule of faith is dependent upon...

(57:16):
the rule of how we worship.
uh We need to make it clear that yeah, if you worship in a way that is undermining whatyou teach, then don't be surprised if you start teaching differently, right?
But at the same time, what we teach is based upon the scriptures.
Because one other thing that goes along with this, and this is one I have a big problemwith, I have no problem with the Lex Credendi, Lex Orandi uh statement, I think it's just

(57:43):
observably true that
how you practice is going to affect how you teach, how you teach is going to affect howyou practice.
But what I really don't like, and something that we were taught in seminary, is thedistinction between primary and secondary theology.
It's not a Lutheran distinction.
It's a papist or even Eastern Orthodox distinction.

(58:05):
But the idea is that primary theology is worship and secondary theology is study.
No.
And I think it plays into this whole idea of like, don't preach about the gospel, butpreach the gospel.
uh which really means don't preach the gospel, just give some nebulous, feel-good sort ofthing of God loves you.
And so this idea that the study of scripture is secondary theology, well, here, hand methat right there.

(58:34):
Bye.
Bible.
Yeah, hand me the Bible.
I'm gonna give you the NIV.
I don't care.
your favorite.
Yeah, thank you.
Alright, so it's still the Word of God.
Alright, so I'm reading the Bible right now, right?
Alright, I'm not actually doing it, but you know, I'm reading the Bible right now.
This, according to that paradigm, is secondary theology.
because you're not.
Because it's not worship.

(58:56):
primary theology is worship and secondary theology kind of derives out of that primarytheology.
Hold on.
So again, you see how that connects with the lex credendi, lex orandi, that the rule offaith, what we teach is going to derive out of the liturgy.
Okay, there's some truth in that, how it might be affected by that.
But what we got to be on our guard against is the idea that this reading, the Bible, issecondary theology.

(59:21):
No.
This is.
The norm!
This is the primary theology.
This is, I mean, we don't need to use that terminology.
What a different way to describe it simply be that as the Augsburg Confession does, theceremonies in one place, they'll be like the ceremonies don't need to be the same in every
location.
Yeah.
Right.

(59:42):
However, in another place, they'll talk about why they've retained certain ceremonies forthe sake of the gospel.
Exactly.
So it's true that.
Yeah, you know the way that you the worship service is Conducted so to speak is going toaffect what people think about god's word, but also we're It doesn't mean that every

(01:00:03):
single aspect of the worship service like that's the main point in fact I think last yearat the camp you told some story or made some anecdote about Was it your grandpa that said
something about he knew if a pastor was a good pastor if he made a mistake Yeah
Yeah, he says if you know he says is uh if you don't make at least one liturgical blunderthen I'm suspicious of whether you're orthodox or not.

(01:00:25):
Yeah, all right.
I doubt your orthodoxy or something like that.
um So whenever I make a mistake in the liturgy, I'm like, well,
Which is- Don't be prepared and try to make mistakes.
No, no,
Spend more time on your yeah, spend more time on your sermon than you do on like makingsure that you're Following all the rubrics, know, the rubrics.

(01:00:47):
That's what the rubrics are there so that you don't have yeah, okay prepare for it, butyou don't have to like get worried about it and That's why they're there.
It's a roadmap and you'll get used to it.
So anyway, we're out of time because we gotta go eat dinner and uh They can't eat untilthey pray

(01:01:09):
And they can't pray without me.
I'm just kidding.
They can pray without me.
Yeah, it's okay.
I'm not the mediator between God and man.
Jesus is and you all have Christ in your heart, which is true.
But we can talk about maybe that's another cliche, right?
Or maybe a term that's misused or something.
Yeah.

(01:01:29):
Yeah.
So what is, where, where are people going to be able to find you?
Do you have any, do you have anything set up yet?
We've got more on like Spotify, Apple Podcasts.
think I had stuff switched over to Podbean too.
So like most of the major um podcasting platforms you can find us on, just type in TheDidymus Podcast.

(01:01:50):
This podcast.
We'll Luther's seal and then like it's the profile of two guys that look the same.
Someone's got a little bit more of a quaff.
He has a little bit higher view and you So, uh, so you guys

(01:02:11):
find a link in the description here for the Didymus podcast with the Schlie brothers.
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