How 'Out and Around' Led to Modern Family Finance with Jennifer Dazols

In today’s episode I had the pleasure of sitting down with Jennifer Dazols. Jenni co-founded Modern Family Finance with her wife several years ago after leaving a career in tech. But as you’ll hear in this conversation we have much more in common than I even realized, from navigating leaving the faith we were raised in to now raising 7 year old boys. We also discuss the documentary film she and her wife produced in 2015, ‘Out and Around’, which follows their travels over the course of a year to meet with LGBTQ activists and pioneers all around the world

Follow Jennifer Dazols & Modern Family Finance:

Website: https://www.modernfamilyfinance.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferdazols/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ModernFamilyFinances/

Watch Out & Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niWQfArDTZk

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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/coded-in-gold/

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello.
I'm your host, David Newson.
And welcome to Coated in Gold.
This podcast exploresthe fractured, beautiful pieces
of our modern lifethrough compelling stories
and conversationswith exceptional individuals.
Let's get started.
Welcome.

(00:21):
In today's episode, I had the pleasureof sitting down with Jennifer Dissolves.
Jennifer is someone I was introducedto by friend of the show, Kristen Hayden.
We were connected as two LGBTQ peoplein the wealth management space.
Jenny co-founded Modern FamilyFinance with her wife
several years agoafter leaving a career in tech.

(00:41):
But as we'll hear in this conversation,we have much more in common
than I even realized from navigatingleaving the face
we were raised in to nowraising seven year old boys.
We also discussed the documentary filmshe and her wife produced in 2015, Out
and Around, which follows their travelsover the course of a year
to meet with LGBTQ activistsand pioneers all around the world.

(01:06):
There's so much juicy stuffin this conversation.
So without furtherado, Jennifer dissolves.
Hey, Jenny, how are you?
How are you? I'm doing really well.
Thanks for coming on.
I love to start these by,and I was trying to remember, like,
how we were first introduced.
Do you know the story? A mutual friend.

(01:26):
Who was it?
Kristen. Hayden. Hayden.
Yes. Sorry.
Okay. She's been on the show.She's been on the show.
Okay, cool.
Oh, okay. That's awesome. Yes.
And how did you meet her?
Kristen is actually cousin.
Her cousin is a long time friend of mine.
And somehow, Mike,this cousin, like this mutual friend,
I think, somehow introduced us to, like,my cousin's a queer, and, like,

(01:50):
Kristen was kind of entering into finance,you know, and.
She's.
Pulling up.
She's still,I guess, kind of nonprofit. But,
and so she's just
us and,I mean, we've been like acquaintances,
but each time I see her,I feel like we have a lot to talk about.
And so along the way, she was like,oh, you should really meet David.
And that's how.
We. Oh, that's awesome.

(02:10):
Oh, cool.
So this is my personal podcast.
And like, I don't typically mix like,
my personal podcast and work, although,you know, I am I am who I am, right?
And so, like,there's times where the worlds collide.
And this is anotherone of those, situations.
I think I knowyou more personally than for work.

(02:32):
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true.
I think that's true.
Yeah, yeah, butbut while we're on the topic.
Yeah. Okay.
I want to know. Okay.How is your practice going?
It's going great. It's going well.
You know, it's kind of likewhen you take a leap of faith
to make a career change,which is what I did about five years ago.
And you're
trying to build a practice from scratchwithout having ever done this before.

(02:55):
You think I don't know if it'll ever work,you know?
And, so it's like, it'sit's like we have a solid practice now.
We have, we work with,
the, you know, 60 or so, LGBT,
not all LGBT, but many LGBT familiesin the California, San Francisco Bay area.

(03:16):
It's actuallya really great mix of people.
Just like single women, just obviously
families of all stripes and colors.
You know, people generally peoplekind of in that 40s to 50s range,
also some kind of closing in retirement,either traditional or early retirement.
And we have a great team.
So, yeah, I mean, it's like

(03:38):
I feel solid in what we're doingand then also having a great team.
I work with my wife and we have alsotwo other amazing planners
and also an arch support person.
So we're we're feeling good.
Oh, that's very cool.
Oh, that's so cool. Yeah.
Oh that's awesome.
But David, you knew us when I, when,when I was still a very,

(03:58):
shaky, scared little cattrying to trying to start this thing,
unsure of what I was doing.
Yeah, but now you're crushing it.
I think, you. Know, now we feel likewe have something solid so that. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
That is fantastic. That's awesome.
Okay.
Getting started on,
historical background, bio,things like that.

(04:21):
Where did you grow up?
I grew up in Naperville, Illinois,which I just explain
to people outside of them,unless it's a Chicago suburb of Illinois.
And at the time, like,if you go there now, you'd be like,
oh, it's a blossoming,very relatively diverse for the Midwest.
But when I grew up, I'd be like one ofthere be like two Asian kids,

(04:44):
one African American kid,you know, one Indian kid
in, like, you know, a class of,like, 100 kids, right?
Or like,you know, spread across the grain.
So, I feel like a lot of my childhood,I was born in the States to
immigrant parents,who came here, you know, with me,
you know, luckily, like, they were not,like, refugee type of immigrants.
They had resources coming here. So.

(05:05):
But at the same time,they also had no, like,
familyor kind of cultural bearing in the states.
Right.
So I just I think a lot of my childhoodwas just trying to figure out
how to make it like, because my parentshad no idea what the hell was happening.
Yeah. Oh, that's so.
Like from a social and I think just.

(05:26):
Yeah, finding my own identity here.
Okay.
Any siblings?
Just you.
I have a younger brotherwho's like, four and a half years younger.
I often wished I had an older sibling,somebody to pave the way.
And then my parentswere also pretty religious, you know,
grew up going to, like, the kind of thisChristian Mandarin church.

(05:48):
So I think that was kind of likethe religion was tied in with also like
this otherness of being immigrantstheirselves all kind of mixed together.
But yeah, that was my upbringing.
Stayed in the Midwest until after college,so I kind of moved around
different places to
as I went to school and collegein Saint Louis,
and then eventually ended up out in theWest Coast in California, in the Bay area.

(06:08):
What brought you to California?
I was actually like my job at the time,like I started my career in, corporate
finance and investment banking,which is like not my cup of tea, but,
you know,when you're, like, an overachieving
feeling like I have to prove myselfkind of person.
You focus onwhat sounds like the most cash job,
and that's why I choseand went after that.

(06:28):
So they I was in their tech banking,their technology banking practice,
and they moved me out to the park.
And that was very fortuitousbecause I am totally Bay area now.
Never leaving them.
Never looked back.
Never look back.
Yeah. Okay, so you land in the Bay area.
You're working?
Yeah. Tell me how you met your wife.

(06:51):
Well, having grown up in a very, like,sheltered religious
environment, like I, to my knowledge,did not know any LGBT people.
I mean, sex was just like evil, like this
terrible thing,you know, which I think you can.
You understand, you know, having grown upreligious yourself.
It's not. Like.
It's just like you don'teven think about it.
Boys or girls, whatever.
And so it really wasn't, until,like, my, like, being late college

(07:13):
that I started thinking about, like,maybe I am attracted to women.
So I didn't actually experience
or even come out to myselftill, like, my 20s, like post-college.
And so the first person I was ever with
was with another girlfrom church, de nada. So.
That is scandalous.
Very scandalous. Actually.

(07:33):
It was very scandalous.
And it was very like,a very, like, tumultuous, difficult time,
you know, kind of like I laugh about itnow, but I mean, I'm just like,
I if I could go backand see that girl, I'd be like, oh my God,
this was like this horrendous thingyou went through, you know, like where
we were both kind of very activein the church and leader.
So we were actively called out and askedto leave in a very public fashion.

(07:57):
And then that was likemy entire social world as well.
So kind of losing that entire again,I think you can understand, like
from the world you came from, like,it's like your whole world, right?
And then also your parents.
So that all happened within 3to 6 months of my parents finding, like me
recognizing myself,
kind of being kicked out of the church,in my parents finding out,

(08:17):
you know, and I was livingwith my parents at the time.
So it was this crazy like situationwhere now I quickly kind of
could not live at home anymoreat that point.
Just my parents.
My mom is like, I'm crying so much,I'm going to die, you know?
It's like, so I had to leave.
And so that's actually when I moved from,I was living in the East Bay of,
you know, San Franciscoto East Bay and moved to the city,

(08:40):
with the girl
I was with andso kind of had to find our new path there.
But anyways,that was not what you asked me.
You asked me how I met my wife.
I don't know how I can answer that,actually.
Actually. Actually, yes.
Tell the storyabout how you met your wife,
but we're going to definitely put a pin
that come back to us,because there is a lot there's.
A lot there.
All this I think I gave that backstorybecause I was I really was spending

(09:02):
my early 20strying to find my own identity
and finding my own community and,and looking for my own community.
I just I joined the Age Life Cycle,which is a bicycle ride from San Francisco
to Los Angeles that happens overseven days as a fundraiser.
But in addition to kind of being thisreally amazing fundraiser,
it's also like a community event
where you get to, like, as a participant,you meet a lot of people.

(09:22):
Obviously, a lot of LGBTQ participants.
And it was on one of these training ridesthat I met my wife.
So we weren't just acquaintancesand friends for about a year.
And then, you know, break ups later,we kind of hung out again.
And then,you know, one thing led to another.
And then I've been with her for, oh, myGod, I don't even know many, many years.
Like, I guess she was 34.

(09:44):
I mean, like 15, 16 years,something like that.
That was going to go. Yeah. Wow.
And now it's not just you two.
You have a family. We have two children.
So I have a seven year old boy,and I also have a nine year old girl.
So a, a first grader and a fourth grader
who are luckilyjust started school this week, so.

(10:05):
Wow. Yeah,
he's in first grade.
We ended up, long story short,we ended up holding
because we spentwe also spent many years living abroad.
When we moved back,we ended up holding back one year.
So he's on the older side.
So we just thought, let'sgive him a leg up since he's going well.
No no no no you're absolutely right.
I was just reading this book.
Outliers. Of boys and men.

(10:26):
Oh, okay.
By Richard Reeves. Okay.
And he basically is talking about,you know, the state of boys and young men
in this country, and there's like,a real failure to thrive. Yes.
And one of the things that he posits isthat,
boys should start school later.
Yeah. Period.
Like Zander's starting second grade. Yeah.

(10:47):
And, you know, and and he's a young. He's
a second grader.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, after I read that book,
I've kind of been a little gungho on the whole, like.
Yeah.
Like, there's like, women's movementright through the country,
and it's like girls, girls, girls, they,you know, the same equality and like,
totally support that.

(11:08):
And it's like. Yes.
And we also need to make surethat boys can thrive right
in, in, in their environment too.
And like the book kind of blew my mindbecause it was one of those topics
that was not front and centerin my mind at all.
I was always feeling like,oh gosh, we have to be champions
of our fellow LGBTQ folks, right?

(11:30):
And we have to be champions of womenand girls and like, blah blah, blah.
And then like, it's like, whoa, hold ona minute.
Boys are failing to thrive.
We need to figure out why.
Because there's going to bea whole lot of,
you know, there's going to be it'sgoing to be a whole lot of people
without partners potentially in the futureif we don't solve this problem.
Well, that's likeI think happening in other countries.
But yeah, I mean, I think as my sonwas growing up in a family of all women

(11:53):
and, you know, his sister,we all will ask him, like,
do you feel likewe need to celebrate your boyhood more?
And he was like, he's like, yes.
I was like, I don't like, okay,we will celebrate your boyhood.
He was like,what are you all about, girls?
You know, because we have obviouslylike that's on our mind.
Like we're going to go to that see the WByou know NBA and all that stuff.
And I was like well you knowyou know like there's obviously like

(12:16):
yes there is definitely somethingto celebrate women and girls.
And we explained to him it's because girlsweren't always treated the same.
But obviously for him he also feels likehe he needs to be celebrated.
Super cool.
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Oh,that's so interesting.
We have I mean,we obviously have the opposite problem.
I mean, it's like it's harder,like two dads.
Yeah.
And there's also a part of,

(12:38):
Well, I worryI don't want to speak for my husband, but
I worry sometimes that he getsonly certain exposure to the world.
And yet there's, like, other things, like,
should we have goneto the monster truck event?
Oh. You know, because, like, in.
Preparation it up. Okay. Yeah.Yeah, totally.
If he was like, oh, dad, I have got to goto the monster truck event,

(13:00):
then we would have been like,oh gosh, we need to get the ear thing
we got to was like,oh, we have to prepare for this.
Yes, yes.
And then we would have stuck outlike a sore thumb because we would.
Yeah, yeah.
So then it was just.
Yeah.
Anyway, yes, our kids are who they are.
So it's like an acceptanceand a celebration and the learning
to celebrate the differencesthat they are from us.

(13:21):
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Let's go back.
I want to unpack some of the,
the time period
because I think back to my own experience.
My own experience was I was justnever attracted to women, like from a sex.
So even, like coming of age and,you know, going through puberty

(13:41):
and but there was just never, thing like,oh, girls, just wasn't that way.
In fact,it was like, oh, boys. Yeah. Yeah.
Like, right. But then there was not
there was not
an outlet for that.
At like at all.
Right.
And so then it became very quickly,a feeling

(14:03):
and an internal narrative of something'swrong with me
because everything else in my environmentis telling me
that that's wrong, like, that's sinful,that's like,
you can just add all the, you know, lovelythings that get appended to that.
Yeah.
But I couldn't imagine

(14:25):
having the realization
then having an experienceand then having, like,
the church push me out all in a short,
like, window of time.
Yeah.
So for you, how long was that window?
Are we talking a couple of yearsor are we talking months?
Months?
Like, oh, like maybe six months, you know?

(14:49):
Oh. And,
you know,I think, I think for my personality
or whatever, it was probably better,you know, rather than like a slow simmer.
Okay.
Just because it was like,okay, I had to rip off the Band-Aid.
I had no choice. I had no choice.
I had to create a new communitybecause I lost mine.
I had to create a new familybecause I lost my, you know,
so I was like this,

(15:12):
like, and and fortunately, it happened.
And this is why I like, you know, youth.
I really like if this had happened to mewhen I was 16, like,
what would I have done, right? Or even 18?
Like, I was financially independentat that point. I had a job.
I was in my 20s.
I was working,you know, so I could go out on my own.
And yeah, like, I can't like for kidswho have to go through this,

(15:36):
it's a whole different
ballgame, right?
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Causeyou're still beholden to your parents.
So. And I was old enough to have,
you know, kind ofjust be able to stand my own feet
and, like, from an emotional standpointas well, at least to a certain extent.
Right. Sure.
So I'm really appreciative of that.
And then I think the second big thingthat helped me during the transition is

(15:57):
I actually found an LGBTQaffirming church.
And the pastor, she was like, I mean,I should actually really reach out to her.
Like, she really was like a lifesaverjust to help me.
And also my partner that I was withat the time, just really get through that
period, you know?

(16:17):
Yeah.
Like I
yeah, I don't know what I would have donebecause it would have been so abrupt,
you know. Yeah.
You also feel like your whole worldviewis shattered,
like what you thought was rightand wrong, right?
Oh, absolutely.You know what that is like? Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
I mean, it's actually I don't I don'tknow, like when I reflect on my life.
Yeah, that's one of those moments of,you know,

(16:41):
like sometimes there's those momentsthat you just don't ever forget.
And like,I forget the details of the day to day,
but I'll never forget the,like the absolute feeling,
because it was
literally like, you know,your world was being ripped apart.
Yeah.
You know, or
you're being ripped away from somethingthat that's all you ever knew, right?
Oh, I'm so gladthat you actually had someone during that.

(17:04):
Yeah.
One, I'm glad that you were able to findan LGBT, you know, affirming church.
Yeah. And I am curious, like,what is that like?
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting.
It's probably like,
not it's not, I mean, not probablyit's not something I would go to now,
you know, because it was basically likeit was still very evangelical.
It was still very,I grew up in that little, little church.
It was still very, angelic call,like the one, the one major difference

(17:28):
was that it was openand affirming from an LGBT standpoint.
But many things.
It was like still pretty conservative.
So it's not necessarily kind of whereI'm at in my life now.
But I think at that time, like kind ofI needed that bridge,
you know, and I needed like it was itlike was too many,

(17:49):
too many shocks in the system,to kind of just also rip all of that down.
Sure, sure.
Where are youon the spectrum of faith and belief now?
I mean, that's interesting.
It's come up a lot morebecause we have our kids in
Catholic school, and you might be like,why the heck do you have that?
Long story short, it's just like,because of the state of San Francisco

(18:09):
public schools and,
the couple other reasons we ended upsending them to Catholic schools is
a very good education.
And my wife grew up in a
Catholic school, and she was like,don't worry, San Francisco liberal.
At the same time, it'sactually still a lot of Catholicism.
So we had a very
with our daughter who was kind of like,we're praying all the time.
I don't really believe in this,
you know,like she's trying to rebel in her own way.

(18:32):
And, you know, I think I don't, you know,
I really I guess I'm of the standpointthat, like, I just don't know,
but I but if believing in a loving God
makes I like things better,which I do believe it does.
I mean, like, if this is a narrativethat is going to help me live

(18:53):
like my best life
and it's going to help me see the worldin its best life,
this is the narrative I want to choose.I hope it's true.
It might not be, you know?
So it's like, I want to believein a loving God and and all right, like,
whatever you want to call it God,universe and Twitter.
What? Yeah. You know,I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I kind of like a lot of the what'sright and wrong, what's whatever.

(19:15):
I'm just like, oh, no, can we just focuson the things that we know are for sure?
Right. You know, like,which is like, love and compassion and.
Yeah, that's already hard enough.I just to know six right.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Like so that's one. How about you. Oh
like how do you, how are you raisingyour son?
I'm curious. Oh,

(19:36):
he does not go to a,
a Catholic school.
He goes to a private school,but for the same reasons.
I mean, we we left San Francisco to startour family here because of all of that?
Yes, exactly.
We were just like, I don't I don't knowhow we're going to make this work here.
Yeah, I like yeah.
But from, I completely agree with you.

(19:58):
Like, there are times where I,you know, it's funny that you say, God,
the universe.
I will talk about the universeall the time, right?
Oh, it's interesting how, like,you know, the universe provides.
I'll say sometimes. Right?
Right where it's like, you know,there's, you know, some things that,
it's like the synchronicities, you know,
that that happen in life and you'rejust like, oh, well, that's curious.
And I wonder why it happenedwith this timing.

(20:19):
And at the end of the day,I'm glad that it happened.
And even with my own businessnow, it's like there are sometimes
people enter your life and you wonderif it was for a reason or not.
Right?
And for me, it makes me feel better
and more connected to the worldwhen I think that, yeah, maybe there.

(20:39):
This person did cross my pathfor a reason today and I.
And I'm okay not knowing the exact reason.
Right. Like that's okay.
And it's up for meas an individual to explore.
Yeah.
How are we raisinghow are we raising Zander?
We're raising him in a way that
I gosh, it
it's space.

(21:00):
It has a lot in common withChristian values, but like the basics.
Yeah. Like, how do you want to be treatedin the world that what the.
Guess what?
That's how you treat other people.
Kindness.
Respect. Yeah. Right.
Like there's an respect for everyone,not for.
Oh, you know, we have differentvarying levels of respect

(21:20):
for different people based on whatthey think or believe or whatever.
No no no no no.
You know, you know, respect is universalbecause they're human beings, right.
And and it goes beyond human beings, like,let the animals,
plants, our natural environment,all of that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
But what what's also interestingthere is like, I think we
we don't, I guess. Yeah, we've just

(21:42):
it feels very similar.
If I'm being transparent,it feels very similar to my,
my own upbringing minus the guilt,you know,
minus some of the dogma, dogmatickind of things.
But what I also findinteresting is my husband
being bornand raised through college in China.

(22:05):
Yeah. So I totally agnostic. Right?
Well, yeah.
But we also see the world like thesetwo worlds actually work well together.
Because if you go backto kind of like Confucianism,
there are some basics in there.
Yeah, that are,you know, a decent way to live a life.

(22:25):
And so that's where it works together.
Sometimes it doesn't work togetherso well.
There's the, the I, you know,
you know, being raised in Americais there's a very big I.
Yeah.
And in Asia it's like it's the bigwe the small I and
and that's where I think there's someand that's even, even as parents.
Right. There's times where,

(22:47):
you know,
we've had to agree, like, hey,there's elements of our son's personality.
He's got big, big energy, big personality.
And guess what?
He lives in a culture that is goingto require that in some instances,
we want him to have a lot of a lot ofenergy behind who he knows himself to be.
Yeah. And take a stand.

(23:08):
And so we try to fan those flames,you know?
Yeah.
But yeah, it's it's strikingly similar.
Yeah.
That's good.
That's good because those are likesome very corporate.
And I'm sure that'swhy you guys are together, right?
You still have to act like weobviously are attracted the differences.
But the core value, you have to share themwith your partner. Otherwise.

(23:28):
Yeah.It does not bode well for your. Yeah.
Okay. So tell me. Yeah. Okay.
So you and your wife,when you're like raising a family.
Yeah.
She has a very differentbackground than you. Yes.
What does that look like?
Yeah.
So my wife, she is like she always saysshe's a white person
with a little bit of color, which is true.
She at first she tried to claimthat she was some Asian.

(23:49):
I was like, no, no, no, you're,
But like, so for her, you know,it is true.
Like her grandparentswere all from other countries, but
essentially her dad was whiteand her mom was,
kind of a mix of different thingsSpanish, Mexican, Filipino.
And she was actually hermom was born in the Philippines.
But really, like, once her family camehere, like was very focused
on integration,you know, so for all intents and purposes,

(24:11):
I see them as kind of like growing upas a Caucasian family
with some Asian Filipino background,you know, flavor or Hispanic flavor.
You know, that's kind of what it is like.
I think one of the biggest differencesbetween my family, her values, her family
is very functional and warm and loving
and, like, functional and positive,you know, like, and,

(24:33):
I mean, I love my parents and I, you know,it's like they tried their best,
but it's like, you know,I don't know that.
It's like I want to recreate my childhoodfor my mama, for like, children, right?
For sure. So, like,I think a lot of times it's kind of like,
for us, like, I think we
obviously we do share a lot of the valuesand what we
care about instilling in our family,which I'm sure similar.
Yours, you know, kindness, respect, tryinghard, having grit all these things.

(24:57):
But like how we motivate or tryto get our kids to do this is different.
I think like,we've been having less conversation,
especially as our child, you know, they'regetting older or at like nine and seven.
Like,I think for me, I have been a little bit
when I first was, you know, pregnant,we were about to have kids.
I was worriedI would repeat some of the things
with my parents, but actually in it, like,I've almost done the opposite.

(25:19):
Well, I'mjust like a little two hands off.
And now as they're older,I'm kind of like, oh shit.
Oh, I have to actually bring a littletiger into here, you know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah.
So it's kind of like,I think she's kind of like, well,
they should just naturally dothese things.
I was like, well,
you naturally did these things becauseyou're more like the perfect child.
But like, some kidsneed some more motivation, you know, so.

(25:40):
Sure. Yeah, yeah.
That that these conversationsare happening in our house.
Right. Okay. Yeah. That's right.
Yeah.
And then, so how do you push or motivateand what's too hard
and what's not too hard.
So we have been havinglots of conversations and she's like well,
and I think especially nowas our nine year old as in sports
and you see like American culture,sports is like insane, right?
Like you're just. Saying great, great.
And she's like,

(26:01):
my wife was a natural athleteand she just naturally did it.
And she's just as understandwhy my daughter doesn't do it.
I was like, she's just not going to do it.
And I was like, I actually don't care
about her being amazing at sports,but I want her to have esteem,
and I don't want her to be the sexiestbecause that's not good for us, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But then you have to kind of force a kidwho doesn't want to practice to practice.
Right? So how do you do that?

(26:23):
So I mean, I don't think wewe don't have, like,
you know, I think we all we're ableto come to agreement.
But I've had to, like,tell her like she's too afraid.
She's afraid to push because she thinksit's too hard on the child.
And I'm like, oh, you have no idea.
Like what?
I was like, you can push way harder.
I'm like,look at me, I'm still here. I survive

(26:43):
life.
So it's kind of like, I'm like,we can push,
we can be loving,but we can still push. And.
And I think she's, like, starting to like.
But she doesn't, you know, I'm like,
there's nowhere near we are nowhere nearthe spectrum of pushing too hard.
So we have to kind. Right. Come at it.So I don't know.
Well what is it like in your.
Oh it's it's so funny.
I am more like your wife.

(27:06):
Okay.
And you are more like.
Yeah. Because we know you can pushharder, child.
They won't break.
But it is very interesting.
Like there's
I'm coming from this place of
if he knows he is loved.
That reservoirhe can tap into for the rest of his life.

(27:29):
Right.
And my husband's like,that's all well and good.
That's fine.
But he'sgoing to practice his piano every day
and it's going to befor 45 minutes. Right.
And this is going to happen.
And guess what? You'rethe one that plays a piano. Me yes.
And so you're in charge of that activity,right.
Like and so he's just literally likeyeah we do we agree on this.

(27:49):
And I'm like, we agree.
We agree.
Because we've even seen, we had it.
We had one experience where Zanderwas very interested in basketball.
Yeah.
And so we signed him up for after schoolbasketball. And
and it was really it was really tough.
He was kind of caving in on himself. Yeah.
And it was really unpleasant to watchand so much so where we pulled him out

(28:11):
because we were like, no, no, no, no,
this is the wrong example of likeif it had been me,
I remember wanting to play Little Leaguebecause I actually like the uniforms.
And my mother was like, you can playLittle League like your brothers,
but you're going to play the whole season.
Yeah.
If you sign up,you're playing the whole season and like,
whoop, like she claims she never knew,but she say like she

(28:32):
why would she be giving me this counselRyan.
Like, she's like,David likes the uniforms. Okay.
He's going to like. And then sure enough,I did not want to continue.
And she made me play the entire season.
And I did. And I'm glad I did. Yeah.
But I also was you know,I wasn't that wasn't terrible.
Yeah. Right.
I, I was coordinated enoughto kind of do this.
So we saw this,we pulled him out of basketball

(28:53):
and then we both like started.
Well actually we both let me just weI think I won a few times
and my husband went literallyevery single day and they just like
practiced bouncing a basketball,shooting hoops, you know, like boom.
Until he could like do it. Yeah.
And it's he and I think we pulled him out.
That was probably kindergarten maybe.

(29:15):
So it's been a couple of years.
And this year he said, hey,I want to try basketball again.
So we just signed him up again like, boom.
But it's taken like a long time
of like diligent practice,like all of this kind of stuff.
And I've seen thatand I've seen the diligence
on the part of my husbandand I'm just like, okay, that's amazing.
And I'm in, I'm in.
You want to push? Push.

(29:36):
That's great. Let's do this. Yes.
So that's exactly what we're doingright now with volleyball, with Charlie.
You know, it's kind of like,okay, we're going to do this
and you don't want to,
but we're doing this and it's like,not because we want her to make the team,
but because we want like becausewhat happens is in the child things.
If I'm not good at something,I'll never get good at something, right?
We want to show herthat if you try, you can get better.

(29:57):
That's right.
So like, that's kind of what I think.
Lisa and I have realizedthat, like, actually,
we do need to push because a child,some children might naturally
be diligent enough to do it on cellsthat most children will not.
They will not. But they'll be like,I suck at this.
I'm not doing this right.
Yeah, yeah.
So where are your parents today?

(30:18):
In relationship to who you are, Lisa?
Raising a family?
Yeah. How is it? Shaken out?
Yeah. I mean, it's been a really longjourney, right?
Kind of starting from, like, 15 years agoor whatever.
When my mom said she was crying so much,she was gonna die, like.
And then there was a period of many yearswhere we simply just

(30:39):
barely saw each other,didn't talk about it, you know?
Okay.
And then kind of, you know,even when we when Lisa, I got married,
you know, we she they did notthey chose not to come to our wedding.
So that was probably like,I guess ten years ago or so.
And, but then, you know, the childrendo help, right?

(31:00):
So when and I was like,honestly, like, very scared
to tell my parentsthat we were trying to have kids
and then even tell usI was six months pregnant with our first,
because it's like, it'sso stressful to even have a child.
I can't deal with stressof their negative reaction.
I'm like, sure.
Yeah, not, I get it.
But then, like, onceshe knew that was happening,
I mean, she couldn't help herself,I think, or they couldn't help themselves.

(31:21):
So but to be excited, you know.
So yeah, the very first kind of familygathering
we had was like afterour daughter was born.
That's when, like,my parents started coming in, you know?
I mean, it was it'sdefinitely not perfect.
You know, I think we spent,
you know, the last five years in Taipei.
We kind of went there during Covid.My parents live there now.

(31:43):
And so for the first time, Lisahad a lot of interaction with my family.
If she did sex, she's like, if I had known
this girl, she's like,I wish she was joking.
She was like, wait,
before we were married, I like, you know,she's like, this explains so much.
Yeah.
So and she had to like, I thinkshe finally understood, like some things

(32:05):
my parents were unmovable, you know, like,she also had to come to Jesus.
My parents on her own,independently of me.
You know,
where there was kind of a kind ofclimactic event that I was not a part of.
I'm like, I don't want to be partof that conversation.
But then, like at the end,Lisa is like, okay, I get it.
Like, I'm not even going to try it.
I was like, yes,just understand our limitations, you know?
But at the same time, like, my mom is apresent grandma, they do what they can't.

(32:26):
They're limited here,but they do what they can.
You know, at this point, like my fatheractually had a very serious illness.
So he's actually bedridden now.But they're still part of our lives.
They love their children,you know for sure.
And they do see Lisa.
They, they they accept us as a family,you know.
Are they?
Would they ever choose this for me? No,but it is what it is.
And they they're moving on.
So actually that's that's pretty cool.

(32:48):
Yeah.
Yeah I mean yeah, yeah I mean like,my husband would probably say, hey,
you know what itis what it is. Right? Like.
It could only get worse.
So you know for sure. For sure.
I mean, that there that they're present inyour kids lives are like it.
That's amazing.
Yes, they are, and they're like,they definitely love the kids.
And they've,
you know, had a lot of like,these last years

(33:09):
during Covid, us living over there,
they've been able to formtheir own relationships with the kids.
So you know, okay, that's cool.
That's very cool.
I want to pivot a little bitand talk about out and around. Yes.
I'll let you set that up.
Sure. I went around,
started as like, my own personal desire to

(33:30):
it was like a mix betweenmy personal desire to travel the world,
which is something that I thinka lot of people can resonate with,
and then also a desire,like a kind of outcome of like what
I share with you about coming outand feeling like I was the only, you know.
And I think again,
I grew up in this
Asian American Christian community,and so I, I

(33:51):
and then when I came out,all of a sudden I was surrounded by, like,
non-Asian Americans, you know, like,and now I know a lot of Asian American
queer people now, but like,
when I came out of what I was,I just did, you know, those kind of like
I was trying to look for somebody like me,like my, you know, Asian
or just not Caucasian, just not somebodythat I could resonate with.
And so this idea came to be like,what if we traveled

(34:13):
around the world and just met other queerpeople around the world,
you know, especially inkind of like non-Western countries?
That's what it thatthat was the original genesis of the idea.
And then I was like, okay, well,you know, we're going to do this
and we'll go back and like,let's just and big in our world was like,
let's just do a blog or whatever,you know?
So we startedkind of just interviewing people.

(34:35):
And thenwe kind of would capture by video.
Long story short, we end up capturinglike over 100 hours of footage.
And then when we came home from our trip,we found some editors
who were kind of taken by the story,and they turned it into a photo.
So that film became outand around was our documentary, you know,
which are our children are like,can I watch this?

(34:56):
And we're still like,
not yet, because we definitely saya lot about my parents
and I just we don't we want them to matureenough to understand,
you know, kind of sure, you know,
but yeah.
So that was that was aroundit was a travel of our, we, I think,
I don't remember how many countries14, 16 countries that we went to.
We did like, many dozens of interviews,

(35:19):
you know, handful of thatmade it into the film.
And then,
we also had the fortunate opportunity tokind of do a Ted talk as a result of this,
this film which like that, you know,that was back when Ted was more popular,
you know, so that I think actually hada lot more exposure than the film itself.
But the film also got a good run.
We even got dubbed into Italian like.

(35:41):
Fantastic. Yay,
subway!
So that was pretty cool.
And it's free to watch now on YouTube.
But that was like really cameout of a personal desire
to hear other people's stories.
And, you know, we really focused on Asia,
kind of East Asia and also South Asia.
And then, we did, East Africaand then also central South America.

(36:03):
So we kind of pick people from all places.
Okay, queer life aroundthe world is clearly not well,
I mean, yeah, I mean, it'snot what it's like here in the US.
Yeah.
I know from my own experience,not from actually traveling, but,
when I first moved to San Francisco,I worked with a nonprofit
and produced a film that was actuallytalking to queer people in, like, places

(36:24):
like Uganda and like placeswhere it was actually not safe to be out.
Yeah.
And so tell me a little bit like,those don't all sound
like places in the worldyou want to be out and around.
Yes, exactly.
You know, so like, did you,did you worry about your safety
when you were like,was that ever like a concern?

(36:46):
Yeah.
I mean, East Africa
for sure was challenging,you know, like because like we could not
like we were in Tanzania and Kenya, like,we couldn't get anybody in housing
to speak to us, just like, you know,and even like they did speak to us
that they wouldn't be on camera.We were always like, whatever you want.
Like, this is not worth usthe sake of the film to do that.
But they would talk to usand we just kind of collect the stories

(37:07):
and just kind of for our own understandingand just try to generalize it and stuff.
So it's no jokeover there, right. Like it. There's. Yeah.
And I think there we
definitely were very conscious of neverof being
of not being out as much as we would havelike to, if you will, you know.
Sure.
Yeah.
It but and I think in, in Asiaor particularly South

(37:31):
Asia, it's just hard to be a limit,
you know, like, like forget about
and I think it's, it's interestinglike the gender thing in South
Asia in particular was a big dealbecause my wife is,
you know, masculine looking.
And they gender ized everything in SouthAsia, you know, so
she's constantly getting kicked out of,like, the bathrooms and all these things.

(37:52):
So, yes, the trains are divided by womenand men sometimes too, like in India.
So I think they'reit was interesting to be
challenging to be a woman, you know.
And in fact, when we interviewed the men,the gay men over there,
like the criticismor I guess the way people would be
make fun of them is like that.They are like, what?
You know, like,if you're a gay man, you're like, what?

(38:12):
Right?
So, they were also very progender equality
because they felt like gender equalityand LGBT equality were like together.
Right? Right. Wow.
Favorite placeswhen you're traveling around?
I mean, I think ourmost like some of our most memorable times
was like probably Nepal and Indiabecause it's so different, you know?
Yeah.

(38:32):
And I think, yeah,
it's just so colorful, so chaotic.
So, like, we are still on time.
The mountains in Nepal. So magnificent.
But like. Yeah.
So that was amazing.
Yeah.
I would like to take the kids backat some point to do that, you know.

(38:54):
Did the altitude ever get to you?Oh yeah, I did.
Oh did I okay.
Yeah I think you were. Yeah.
And then, you know, we, we didthe Himalayas there and then we did,
Kilimanjaro in Africa.
And like, the LC totally took me down.
Oh, okay. Yeah.
I mean, I haven't done anythinglike the Himalayas, but we did,

(39:14):
go to a place in China, called Joe Tigo.
And when we flew into the airport,it was at elevation.
It just felt likethey opened up the door to the airplane,
and somebody sucked the air outof my lungs, and I was just like, Yeah.
And I was in marathoningrunning shape at the time.
So I was like, oh, yeah,I got this, no big deal.
But then we would go on these hikes
and like, you know, my husband's like,oh yeah, walk in just fine.

(39:36):
And I'm like literally sick.
Can't even I can barely move.
And then there's like 85 year old,you know you know granny
that's like passing me like oh.Hey are you okay?
And like, off she goes.
And I was just like,you've got to be kidding me.
This is belated.
But yeah, I'm one of those strikes people.
Definitely.Yeah. Gets me. It gets me. Good.

(39:57):
Okay, so you traveled around the worldfor a whole year
with Lisa?
Yeah.
What was that like?
Well, I decided I was not going to proposeto her
until, partway through the tripto see how it went.
So we, you know, not yet engagedor married when we started the trip.
Am I okay?
Like, thing in my head was like, okay,if this goes well, like, we'll know,

(40:20):
you know, I mean, like,yeah, yeah, I'll follow or it's like,
you know,this is like a true test, you know?
Well, yeah, it's like a legit test. Yes.
And also I think not only that,but actually doing
a very seriousproject together was a huge endeavor.
Because it was a serious project.
We did spend like a lot of our timedoing that.

(40:41):
And not only filming, but also raisingmoney, building social media marketing,
like all the things you would dowith a small business
only for like this passion project,you know,
and I mean, the first two months,the first month of that was working
together was very roughbecause we came from such different roles.
I came from like corporate tech world,and she was a social worker
and she had no idea what I did,and I had no idea what she did.

(41:03):
We had no appreciation, you know,
and then all of a suddenwe're kind of doing this project together.
She's like, you're a slave driver.
And, you. Know.
She was I think she was very lazy becauseshe'd be like, actually good or whatever.
But like, she I think she did appreciatelike how hard I was,
how hard of a workerI was, you know, from that process.
And then for me,I appreciated how good she was

(41:24):
just reaching out to people, buildingconnections, interviewing people.
Like, because you need to bring peoplein to this project, right?
Not only for interview,but to raise funds to get the word out.
And like, she was so good at that.
And I was like,that's that's scares me a lot, you know?
So we kind of there was that element.
And then of course, the travel itself,there's like 20,000 decisions to be made.

(41:45):
So, yeah, I mean, I would saythe first two months was rough,
and then we kind of figured out separationof responsibilities for sure.
And then I think I proposed to her,like around month 3 or 4.
Wow. Okay.
And then how much later did you getmarried?
After we came back, like,then we started planning the wedding,
and then we got married. Yes. Okay.

(42:05):
Did you get married in San Francisco?
We got married in Guerneville.
You know what? I.
Oh, okay.
Yeah. Okay. Okay, okay.
And was it in 2016?
Yes. We got married, like, rightwhen, like marriage equality and all that.
Just so we like we planned like we didn't.We didn't know.
You know,we planned, like a year in advance.
And so we had multiple weddings.
Kind of like the big party wedding.
And then we went to City Halland did all that, too.

(42:27):
And then we got married again in Taiwan,where we got married many times.
Oh, wow. Very good experience.
Very cool.
I was asking because we got marriedat City
Hall in San Francisco in 2016.
Nice. So nice.It was a very exciting time.
Yeah.
Very fortunate.

(42:47):
Like, I mean, we just feelreally fortunate that we have just, like,
fallen into this time in this worldwhere we're able to kind of
just be at a place where we're able to getmarried, be at a place where it's
relatively kind of accessible to havechildren and like common, if you will.
You know, like a lot of peopleour age can't do it.
Yeah.
So, yeah. Wow.

(43:09):
If you were to remake the documentary now,are there other places you would go?
I also think it would be interestingto go to different places in the States,
you know, in the US.
Yeah.
Like, because I think when you live in the
I mean, I clearly live in a bubblehere in the Bay area, you know,

(43:29):
and likemost of my friends are in this bubble,
it's kind of like, okay, like,I just remember visiting my brother.
He was going to school in San Luis Obispo.Or maybe we did.
We did. Oh, we did a film event.
We did our own screening at Cal Poly SanLuis Obispo.
Okay.
So it was within the lastten years, right?
So I'm not like, young to go.
And I just remember the,the kids who attended

(43:53):
the stores, everything I, I was like,is this the same country I live in?
You know, like it was still, like,really hard for them even in a big school
like this in Cal Poly,which you would think
surely is big enough to accommodate,you know.
But of course, it'slike a more rural area.
There's a lot of, you know, kind of likeaged out there and it's just like, yeah,

(44:13):
it's like, okay, we actually likewe're not just talking about,
you know, the favelas of Brazilthat are struggling here.
You know, I mean, of course, like the
level of strugglethat like also in our own country,
there are lots of pocketswhere it's still not easy.
So, yeah, I have long thought that,

(44:35):
and I don't know in what expressionit would take,
but I like I like your idea about goingto different places in the United States.
Yeah, because it is it's so differenteverywhere that you go.
Yeah.
Like,I mean, there's places, you know, I mean,
if if I'm being absolutely honest,there's some places I'm, I'm not I don't,
don't feel comfortable going and I don'tand I'm not saying that from a,

(44:56):
oh I only land, you know, the airplaneonly lands in blue blue states.
I'm not saying it from that standpoint.
I'm just saying likethere are some parts that it's just not
I don't want to say it's unfriendly,but like it's it could be uncomfortable
if you landed with, like, your spouseand your child. Yes.
And wanted to just be treatedlike another family.

(45:16):
Yes, I think so.
Yeah.
I think there's lots of places inthe States that that would feel that way.
Oh yeah.
I mean, we're in Japanwhen we go to Japan,
we definitely get the,you know, and you, you know,
a you know, this Asian culture, right?
You really don't know what they think.
Right? Right.
And China, you know what they thinkbecause they're just they're going to
they're talking about you anyway.
It doesn't matter of us right. Yeah.

(45:37):
Good bad. The ugly doesn't matter.
They're,you know, talking and that's fine.
And it also actually feelspretty inclusive, if I'm being honest.
Like,they're just there's a curiosity there.
And so long as there's curiosity, I,
I interpretthat as being a little bit open,
even though it might not be as openas it seems.
Whereas in Japanit just kind of feels like,

(45:58):
you know, you know, you,you don't get any reaction.
And the only reaction if you do getone is like, you know, a slightly
prolonged look, which doesn't last longbecause it's not polite to stare.
So it's like, you know, but there's timeswhere you get that look and you look
and then they like, turn awayand it's like, oh, boop.
Sorry, I got caught. Right.

(46:19):
But even
that to us doesn't feelthat uncomfortable, right.
Whereas there are places, even in airportsin the United States
where it's just kind of like, you know,you don't have to keep looking at us.
I can choose to look at their way.
I don't know what you're thinking. Right.
You can say something.
But one of the.
But then there are also other experiencesthat we have where we're in an airport.

(46:44):
We travel a lot,so we're in an airport, and, we get the,
the positive reinforcement from others
where they look at you, they,you know, smile.
Right.
There's like a verythere's a, an act of almost gratitude.
I don't know if it's but it's kindness.
It's certainly kindness where it's like,and it feels very validating.

(47:06):
They don't have to say like, oh,we think you're,
you know, little gay familiesall cute, right?
Like, they don't say that,but it's like an that's the word.
It's an acknowledgment that like, okay,
I, I know what's happening here,and I'm smiling back at it.
Yeah, yeah. I like it. Right.
And that's pretty cool.
Yes, yes.

(47:27):
And I do think I yeah, I think for, like,for, like gay men with kids.
Right. Like,you're just even a dad with kids.
Like a straight dad with kidsalone is already like, oh, you know.
Oh, yeah, it does.
I do feel like the familything is a little bit easier.
But, you know, like being in Taiwan,my kids will get us all the same time
because they're a mixed kid.
If they're with me, and I understand,like, I can understand, right?

(47:49):
Everybody's asking them,where's your father from?
Much farther from right.
Because I see them with meand I assume, I'm married to a white guy
and, so, you know, my daughter has gottenvery adept, and she actually likes it.
She likes explaining the whole thing.She likes to shop.
I told you, Sandra.
Kind of. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I dig her.
I like, you know, she's like, oh,I got two moms, and they're like, what?
You're Chinese?Especially like, no, I have to, mom.

(48:10):
Because you're saying this in Chinese,right?
So like, no, I'm serious.
So, you know, my mom,my other mom is from America.
Well, I'm from America too,but fine. Whatever. You know.
Oh my goodness.
Oh my goodness.
So yeah. But yeahyou know I I'm sure it is.
It is what it is.
So but it hasn't affectedthem in a negative way.

(48:32):
I don't think so.
I think
my daughter's pretty cool with thatbecause she likes being kind of, unique.
Yeah. I don't know about my son. I've.
I've asked him this,and he doesn't really respond.
I don't know what about.
What about the gender? Like,how does he feel that.
Oh, gosh.
There was a time period at school.
Yeah.

(48:52):
Where, And it kind of caught us off guard,
actually, you know, because it wasthey said, I think it was kindergarten.
Yeah, right.
And we went into, his kindergarten classbecause they would, like,
have their celebration day,
you know, and Zanders was,you know, he's summer birthday.
So it was usually during the year.
Yeah. And like,I was just completely unprepared.

(49:13):
And I should have been prepared.
I mean, like, I totallyshould have been prepared, but I was not.
It caught me off guard.
I was not expecting a five yearold to be like, but where's Zander's mom?
Right.
And I was like.
Yes. What the.
Yeah, but it's not.
Like he probably just said itlike out of reality, right?
He did.
He did the.
Yeah. The child totally did. Yeah. Right.

(49:33):
And then in the momentI'm like sitting there and we were saved.
Literally saved by another child.Yeah okay.
And she's like she toldthis other child she's like I
you know Zander has two dads.
And she was like, and I have three.
And I was just like, oh yeah.

(49:54):
Because like, her parentsdivorced, like, yeah.
Now they're not, you know,and then married again.
So it was like, oh my gosh, she does havethree does, you know, and she saved us.
She saved me that day because like,it was just like, wow.
And then it was also a wonderful momentwhere an adult didn't have to,
you know, an adult to a child.

(50:15):
It was literally the children communityworking it out.
Yeah.
And I was like, okay, thank you. Yeah.Thank you.
I appreciate. Yes.
But there was a long time, likethere was a time period where he would ask
like, you know, and he was heI think he was young, very young.
I want to sayfor these questions like for,

(50:38):
you know, do I have a mom, do I,I did, I did,
and then we had to have like,that conversation about, you know, and,
and now I'm going to make it soundall adult, but,
the conversation where it's, you know,a, a mother is a role, right?
Right. That you play.
Right?
And like,there's nothing missing in your house.
You have two men as per your parents,but you still have two parents. Yes.

(51:02):
And and you still have, like,there's a motherly role in our family.
Right. And it's, it's just providedthrough two different people.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
I mean, I like that and I,and I think like
also I say like, you know, you know,you often wish you had another sister.
Like, talking to my daughter is like,you don't have another sister.

(51:22):
Sometimes you're going to wishyou had one, but you don't.
And but you have a sibling, right?
So it's probably the same thing.
Like you're probably going to sometimeswish you had a death.
But like, you don't,but you're there's nothing missing, right?
Like to that point. It'sjust like your family's different.
You don't have another sister.
So that's that's right.
But what's interesting,what's interesting for me,
and I don't knowhow you feel about this, but

(51:44):
there was something.
There was something about the question.
Yeah, that struck me deep inside.
Yeah.
You mean the other boy or onesand or asked.
No one. Zander asked.
Where it almost.
Well, it did, I guess. It,
I still reacted emotionally to it, like,oh gosh,

(52:06):
he I don't want him thinkinghe doesn't have something.
Yeah, like like something'smissing from this family unit.
Yeah.
And I think that questioningwent back to my upbringing.
Right.
All the,all of the times that said like, oh, yeah.
And that missionary manual, like, if youmasturbate, it means you're gay, right?

(52:27):
Or if you do these things like,these are sins, right?
And like, you're not coming in like,there's a special place for you in hell,
right? Like. Yeah.
And it kind of struck
those areas, and I had to quickly,you know, get my wits about me and,
like, get my brain to kick in and say,like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
That's okay. You can feel that.

(52:47):
But you also need to, like,thank it for sharing and move on.
Because it's therethere is no lack in our house.
Like, there's no.
And I think even if you were to,
I don't know.
He's a very well-adjusted kid. Right.
Has a great.
Even if he wasn't,it doesn't have to do with that, right?

(53:07):
Correct? Correct. Correct.
Our challenge is, has there things,but it's like, that's just a yes.
So that is what it is.
I mean, it's our ownit's our own feelings.
Right about like when they askedabout the dad or I feel I feel like,
oh my, my son is more than I'd,I just think just an element of like,
you know, you want them to be socializedwith other genders and you want.

(53:29):
Yes, you probably want Zander to have alsoadult female role models and stuff too.
But like, just like I want my kidsto have a male adult role models.
Although I don't know how to go do that.
Like I have no idea how to do that.
You got to make friends with lesbians, youknow, do all of my single, single women
who, like, have the time to, like,take your kid under their wing, you know?
But yeah,but we're kind of social recluses.

(53:52):
Like, are you guys really socialas a couple in a phase?
I mean, I would only saywe're half social, like.
I mean, I'm not like, great about doinglike, my own things, to be honest.
So we do a lot of family things.
So I guess from that standpoint,you know, just by nature of hanging out
with straight families, you'regoing to get a man and a woman, you know?
But like in Taiwan, we proactively,
found this LGBT groupbecause we wanted to make sure, like,

(54:15):
we felt like our kids were so otheredas it was as mixed children.
Yeah.
And there werethere's mostly gay men in that group.
And because, like, they need I think it'sjust of said they needed each other more.
They had to come to the Statesto get surrogacy
and all that kind of stuff, you know.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So like,
one of them is coming to stay with usthis next weekend and so there's like,
we're friends with several gay dad,Asian couples,

(54:38):
you know, so they like,see that end how that.
But I mean, they're in Taiwan.So we're here now.
So here. Yeah.
You know, I think it's just more beneath,like we do have a brother in law,
you know, who's very warmand friendly with our children, you know.
Okay, okay. That's good, that's good.
So but yeah, I mean, I think also beyondthat, it's kind of like,

(54:58):
maybe putting him on to, like,I do proactively see, like,
if there is going to be a one on onepiano lesson,
is there a male teacher kind of thing,you know?
So, yeah, I think that's interesting.
Zander does havehe does have a female piano teacher.
Yeah.
And I was justI was pausing and thinking like, okay,
who are his female role modelsthat he's around, like, fairly, you know.

(55:21):
We have some teachers.
Teachers for sure,but my mother and my sister,
we've been doinglike, a Sunday Zoom for years.
Yeah.
And that's been awesome.
And then we've spent many, most,if not most of his birthdays,
in San Diego with them. Yeah.
And he gets very excited about,you know, being around them. And,

(55:45):
so I guess we
have some of that, but, like,we are kind of,
I mean, it's like a lot of course,we hang out with more women than we do
men. But, you know, I and I think,you know, he's going to be okay.
They're going to be okay.Like as long like.
And I over time, I think one of the thingsto remember is like at some point
it's not even up to us.
It's like who their coach is going to beand who they are.

(56:07):
I mean, it's like, it's just it.
Yeah, it's not going to happen
and they're going to be okayno matter what, you know.
That's right.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Yes yes. Like we can try our best.
But I also don't think we have tolike bend over backwards, you know, to.
Yeah.
Okay.
Time in Taiwan.
There's like, a part of mesometimes it's just like,
oh, gosh,I would just love to spend some time in.
Asia.

(56:28):
In Asia, as a family unit.
I just think there's a lot to like.
There's just a lot to experience there.
Yeah.
What's the longestyou've stayed in Taiwan.
For five years? We live a five year.So for life. Yeah. Oh my gosh.
So we stayed all the way through Covid.
We only moved,
that doesn't make sense.
So maybe it's three years.
Okay, I'm confused nowbecause I was 2020 to 2024,

(56:52):
whatever that many number of years, Covidstarted in 2020, right?
Yes. Okay. Okay. So I was like that.
That was only movesand we moved back in 2024.
Yeah. Okay. Okay. So,
yeah.
So I, I've never lived in Asia myself.
You know, I was born and raised rightin the Midwest and then, came over here.

(57:13):
So it was like a big deal for me to just.
I wouldn't have done everythingmore for Covid.
But then having done it, I'm really happy.
Like, one.
It was great for me,I think, to also just, like,
feel like this is my countryto, you know, like, sure.
And to find my own community,including queer community in Taiwan.

(57:33):
And then secondly, I think with youngkids, Asia is a lot easier, to be honest.
You can just get more support
and it's just more accessibleand it's easier, you know,
and certainly during Covid,you know, and then, yeah, thirdly,
my parents were there.
So we were able to kind of spend more timewith them.
And then fourthly, like the Mandarin,which I think you were trying

(57:53):
to get Zander to learn too, right?
So, that was my son's first language.
So, you know, now we're activelytrying to make sure they don't lose it.
So we're still trying to probably spendthe next couple of summers there.
And my son is in an after schoolMandarin program, which he hates.
But whatever. We're like,you need to go because you're good.
And yes, he does need to go.
Yeah, I think I year old can retainbut like five, six, seven
it can still go away.

(58:14):
Oh yeah.
We had to choose Mandarin or Spanish.
Yeah.
For school.
And originally we were like, Zander waslike, I want to, I want to speak Spanish.
And we were just like, yeah,there's some decisions your parents make.
Yeah, yeah.
I was like, no, no, I don't. It'sthere she goes, yeah, yeah.
And but here's the thing.
So we were like Mandarin,Mandarin, it's Mandarin.

(58:36):
And then
it was over the summer.
We just saw him like trying to speakSpanish here, Spanish there.
And we were just like, oh my gosh,he was never doing this with like,
because we had him in Mandarin schoolon the weekend for a while,
and like, it was just kind of like,
you know, it's just like, oh man.

(58:58):
And then my husband was just like, really?
You are half and half like, what are youlike was like, how is this possible?
Yeah, right.
He was having that experience.
But then we went back and we changed it.
It's like, just go speak Spanish.
But we signed him upfor Chinese on the weekend.
You're going to Chinese schoolon the weekend.
And that's that's it.
Absolutely learned Spanish at school.

(59:18):
That's fine. Yeah.
But it's also not immersion, so I'm sure.
It's a hard thing.
Like, honestly, my son refuses
to speak Chinese here in the States,and it, like took enough.
It took honestly like almost a full month
of living there before I even hearda word of Chinese coming out of his mouth,
even though he wasn't Chinese camp,Taiwanese camp the whole time, you know?
So he had to.

(59:38):
But he just has a lot of like like he
I think he'sa little bit of a perfectionist.
So if you can't say, well,he doesn't want to speak,
but like,
I don't, you know, he they'll do what
they're going to do with it,but I want them to at least have the base.
So we're going to keep him for anotherfor Chinese for at least another year,
and then probably let him depart.

(01:00:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Very cool.
Okay, I want to I want to bring, somethings back to kind of where we began.
Yes. So,
you went from techto financial planning? Yes.
How the hell does that happen?
It actually makes sense with a lotof the things that I just shared my story,
you know? Yeah.

(01:00:22):
I think basically after, during our trip
around the worldand making this film, it was so
it was just an amazing experience,like from multiple levels, one to kind of
be doing something that felt very personaland impactful, I guess. And,
to be able to be talking to peopleone on one
and hearing their stories,to be working with my wife,

(01:00:45):
to be traveling around the worldor being location, just kind of like
having this flexibility and be ableto have that trust life, you know, that
really set me on, like, and I never once,like, missed my corporate life, you know?
And, I mean, I had a good situationin my former life.
It's not like I hated it.It's not like I was working for.
I mean, I had great managers.I had a very great company
that they helpedmake this film come to reality.

(01:01:07):
They helped fund it.
They really help, like make this film,you know,
but like, I just the work itself,I just knew, like,
I mean, it just was not what I ultimatelyI didn't I was just work, you know?
But thenof course, I had the financial reality
of being the breadwinner for our family.
My wife, you know, left her work to takecare of the kids after our first was born.

(01:01:28):
Because I was like,you know, working abroad and stuff.
So I mean, long story short,how did it happen that year?
Made me realizeI didn't want to be in corporate forever.
And then that led me to, like,my own personal financial
planning, where I was like, okay,how do I get out of this?
You know?
Yeah, yeah.
LED me to the whole financialindependence movement.
And just like,how do you kind of save money?

(01:01:50):
And I, you know, and then it kind of be as
I kind of got closerand closer to my number, if you will.
It was kind of like, well, like,I don't want to not like
I have a lot to give, youknow, and I and I want to do something.
I want to work.
So it's not that I don't like to work.I actually like to work.
But I want all those thingsthat I experienced before.
Right?
Which is like impact, doing work thatI enjoy doing it with, like doing my wife

(01:02:14):
and having the flexibilityto have an adventure as well.
You know, it's just like,okay, that's kind of like what led me to,
financial planning was like,okay, personal finance self was a topic
I enjoyed.
It would allow me to work one on onewith people in a very intimate way,
you know, and I and I like,thought a lot about what impact meant.
Like, you could either go broador you can go deep.

(01:02:35):
And I thought, you know, I'mthe kind of person
that's going to enjoy, like, I don't care,like whatever millions of followers like
I'm going to care that
I have a really strong relationshipwith 50 to 100 people, you know,
and make a meaningful impactin their life.
So, like, I wanted to go deep there.
And yeah, I mean, it was,
I left a corporate life in 2019and had been on this journey

(01:02:55):
says is sort of modern familyfinance in like around 2020,
and, yeah.
So some like a five year journey now.
And it's like, it's something thatI've been really trying to build
with intentionality where it's like,how do we thrive?
How do we help our clients thrive?
How do we make surethat we as the practitioners also thrive?
You know, which means being mindfulabout how we grow, mean, it's hard, right?

(01:03:19):
I have to balance my ambition with, like,you know, like life.
Right?
And so, yeah,the Asian tiger woman in me is like,
well, I harder, you know, but it's like,you know, what are we trying to do here?
And I just, I just set outand I just really told my wife and told
myself, like, I never want to buildthis business thinking I want to get here.
I want every day to be likethis is where I want to get now, you know,

(01:03:40):
like the hours I work, the people I workwith, how I work with them like this.
It has to be now.
Like it's not.
You know what I mean?
Like I'm unwilling to just, like, defer.
So yeah, that's what we try to do.
I mean, it's not always perfect.
It's definitely has its upsand downs and challenges. But you know,
I it's working and I want to do thisuntil I can't do this anymore.

(01:04:01):
So that's just that's also changeda lot of how I feel about money.
I think when I was in my corporate life,I kept to staring at the number
because it was like, well, it'sI had this number, I can leave.
And now, like,I rarely look at like my own net worth.
I'm just like, actually, that doesn'tmatter to me because I want to do like,
I want to do this,
like tell that my brain goes,I can't do it anymore,
you know, I mean, which means like,

(01:04:21):
okay, I'll have an income,which means I can relax.
And it's like,I'm not trying to get anywhere anymore.
I'm just trying to live the best life nowand practice it now, you know?
Oh, so that's. Where you're just.
You're like,that's the song of my heart. Yes.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
Do you ever, run up against like,

(01:04:43):
okay,what it's like to be a woman in finance?
What?
It's what it's like to be,you know, LGBT in finance.
Do you ever run up against those things?
I mean, I do in a positive way, right?
Like that's great.
I mean, in the sensethat, like, I've surrounded myself.
I mean, to be honest, like buildingyour own practice is a lot of
it's a solo endeavor, which I'msure like owning your own business.

(01:05:03):
You feel quite alone sometimes.
And I tried to be intentionalto find other people who are women, LGBTQ,
or people who share similar philosophyand how they're building their business.
I just sort of see,because I just have not cared about like,
I don't care about making a namefor myself in this industry per se.
I want to have a good practice, greatclient and cool colleagues that I find.

(01:05:25):
But it's like beyond that, I'm like,I'm not.
Networking is networking,you know? That's right, that's right.
If we resonatelike I don't, that's it. Right.
So that's actually been it'sa really big burden off
because I felt like, you know,when you're building your career and like,
you know, if you'retrying to make a career out of it,
you have to like, oh,I got to get to know this person.
I don't really like them,but I gotta get some really awesome stuff.

(01:05:48):
Sure. Yeah. Oh. That's awesome.
That's a wrap.
Well, congratulations on Modern Family.
Thank you.
Thanks for coming on the show. Yeah.
I really love your story.
And I just, I dig the parallels.
It's like I.
We're all just trying to findthread the line, right?

(01:06:09):
Yeah, yeah. For sure, for sure.
Awesome. Well, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to Coded in Gold.
If you liked this episode,please like, comment or subscribe to help
grow this community.
Links to follow the podcastand our guests are in the show.
Notes.
Next week I'll be sitting downwith Jeffrey Shaw, a photographer,

(01:06:30):
coach and author of the bookselling to the Rich.
You won't want to miss it.
Thank you and take good care.