August 4, 2025 • 34 mins
What if brokers actually owned the data they generate and got paid for it? Today, Sam Tibbs shares how Trochi AI is flipping the script by giving brokers ownership in the data economy they fuel, literally offering equity to those who contribute the most.
We discuss why today’s rate tools fall short, how Trochi AI captures real-time load-level insights, and why predictive analytics, not just historical trends, are the next big wave.
It's a must-listen episode if you're into pricing intelligence, automation, and reclaiming broker value in freight tech!
About Sam Tibbs
Sam Tibbs is a product strategist focused on the intersection of freight, data, and technology. As co-founder and CEO of Trochi, he is working to build a truckload pricing and intelligence platform that empowers freight brokers to benefit from the data they create and own.
His trucking experience includes roles at Covenant Logistics Group, FreightWaves SONAR, Leaf Logistics, CloudTrucks, and TriumphPay, where he had the opportunity to learn from forward-thinking teams across the industry. Before entering the industry, Sam served in the U.S. Navy’s Nuclear Power Program and worked in academia, those experiences continue to shape his approach to collaboration and problem-solving.
Connect with Sam
- Email: info@trochi.ai
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-tibbs/ / https://www.linkedin.com/company/trochi-data-corp/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Came back with a bank window down Yelling now money anything hey oh Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when I'm get to the back hey Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when the blame moving fast hey Let them all cross if they hate then let them hate to make a bigger ball.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hey, what is up, ladies and gentlemen?
We are back.
We are live.
It is the Freight Coach Podcast, the top podcast in transportation, coming to you guys every single weekday, 8:30am Pacific, 10:30 Central, to break down some industry headlines.
But most importantly, you guys provide some actual insight into what you can do with all of this information.
If this is your first time tuning in, welcome.
(00:45):
This is the real side of freight, ladies and gentlemen.
And I do say that before every single show.
And what I mean by that is I only speak with transportation professionals because at the end of the day, you guys, I want to talk to the right individuals who have done what you're looking to do or who are currently doing what you're trying to achieve, so you can take that information, apply it, utilize it, and see a meaningful difference in your business and your life.
(01:05):
Happy Monday, everybody.
I got a very special guest for you guys here today, somebody who I followed for a long time, connected with them over the years, and he's got some really exciting things that he's releasing here right now.
And, you know, rates like getting access to freight.
I would say if I was to break down the amount of questions that I get asked, how do I find shippers?
(01:25):
Is probably like the.
The number one question that I've always been asked out there.
Number two is how do I quote?
So we're going to talk about a lot of this, a lot of raid intelligence, and I have my friend Sam Tibbs on the phone down the show today.
I was almost at the phone, man.
We're just.
We're too old for this stuff, Sam.
So, Sam, thank you so much for taking the time to join me today.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I appreciate it.
Yeah.
And I got a few years on you, so.
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
I appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
No, absolutely, man.
And I'm glad were able to make this happen.
You know, when we.
The last time we saw each other in person was in April out in San Antonio this year.
And, you know, you were like, hey, I got this thing coming on.
It's not official yet.
It's going to be official here soon.
And, you know, I'm really glad were able to take that time to.
To make this happen today.
But, Sam, I Want to start this out, man, because it's your first time on the show.
(02:12):
How'd you get your start in freight?
What brought you into the industry?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
You know, like many, essentially, I had a, so my family's outside the Chattanooga area and I was living overseas.
I used to be a finance professor.
Family emergency.
You got to come in and take care of family.
So when you do that, when you leave academics promptly like that, you can't just get our academic position because they're always planning semesters in advance.
(02:37):
At first I thought it was like, it's terrible, but you got to do what you got to do for family.
But I got the good fortune of starting a position at Covenant Transport, who was right here working on the data science team later on in freight waves and then, and just on from there.
So it's really just kind of chance just because of essentially where I live, Chattanooga area, it's Freight Alley.
It's a, you know, per capita, sorry, Chicago, but at least per capita we are the freight.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, no, I mean there, I, I don't know of anyone in this industry that hasn't been touched by the city of Chattanooga in some way, shape or form that works out here.
Right.
It's like they're, whether there's a satellite office there, they started there or what.
It's, there's no denying it.
Right.
Like, we have the joke out here in Phoenix, man.
It's called Freight Alley, where the real transportation capital of the world is Freight Valley, because they called Phoenix the Valley of the Sun.
(03:27):
So that's just an inside joke out here for all our West Coasters, man.
But, so like, what does a data science role look like in a transportation company?
Because, you know, kind of like what were talking about, Sam, before we started.
There's so much information that's out there.
But, you know, a lot of the larger companies, they operate at a different level.
Right.
And they, the, their strategy is vastly different than the 90% of the industry that is small business out there.
(03:53):
So what does a data science role look like?
And how does that really work in a trucking company?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Great question.
So first I'll start and say that I, when I first applied for jobs when I moved here, and this gives a little more background, I, I, I couldn't get an interview for like 12 months because I was applying for finance jobs.
My finance background didn't put me well into finance jobs.
So at the time I didn't even know what data science was.
Yeah, I saw an article Sexiest job in America, something like that.
(04:20):
Said data science.
So I changed my resume because a lot of my academic research and the models that are used is data science work.
So I immediately got interview at Freight Waves right before they had their series A and I had a freightway an interview at Covenant and I had the pleasure of working at Covenant Transport then later Freight Waves.
But with data science work essentially in all facets of your life there is data being produced.
(04:42):
And my goal in that function is to help make that data better for the customers, for the users, for all those people that are involved.
So the case of coming to transport I, I built an example of profit analyzer which we would look in detail the profitability the truck company was making by Lane in real time considering all the cost functions, the time, the, the cost of a reefer vs van etc and I better able to make, you know, provide input to what, make better decisions for the trucking company.
(05:11):
So I'm very proud of that.
That was the first thing.
And I decided too that when I stepped into this trucking role, I'm never going to be unemployed again.
I'm going to make sure I read everything, do everything, anything I can do to make myself better because I got a family to take care of and I'm not going to be that same position again because those 12 months of being unemployed was worse than any job I've had.
Digging ditch hole, you know, fence posts would better job than being unemployed.
(05:34):
So anyway, that's a little intro.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
No, I, I share that same sentiment.
You know what I mean Sam?
Like I, you know, when I first started my company and everything I, you know, I delivered pizzas at part time for you know, eight, nine months just to make sure that my bills were paid at that time.
And you know, and it's like I pain you're describing right there Sam is like that is way worse to me than any opinion anybody else would have by what I have to do to provide for my family.
(06:02):
And you know, news flash for those out there who might be embarrassed about that, real people out there who are actually building stuff respect that way more than you could ever know because it is doing whatever it takes.
And that's a skill set that I'm sure you're already realizing now about going out and starting your company.
So Trochai, let's talk about this man.
(06:23):
What, what is this?
What kind of inspired that to go from hey, I'm gonna like, I want to go out on my own and make this happen.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
100%.
So.
So I little background when I started because my economics background, finance background, I started in pricing and I, you know, I worked at Covenant, worked at Freightways, worked Leaf Logistics, worked at Cloud Trucks.
Then last I was a Triumph Financial working on a rating product for them.
And I love the work, it was very interesting.
(06:51):
I disagreed with some of how it was calculated or how it was done.
I shouldn't say calculated but the data source but was very clear to me in that process is that people want a different rate product, they want additional options, they know the 800 pound grill in the room is DAT and they want something to compete with based on the pricing pressure.
So when you know, trying financial, you know, with the rates down, they cut my position, they cut my project and I was on free reign.
(07:16):
But I knew what every broker was telling me about the, what they wanted additional products.
So I reached out my friends and said, hey, you know, I've wanted to build something a long time.
I think this is the opportunity, it's in my lap.
I've done it, I've had all the experience.
So I decided, you know, hey, you know, let's take a risk.
I don't, you know, and importantly one thing that was really driving forces.
I don't want to be on my deathbed, you know, thinking, well what if I tried that?
(07:41):
You know what I mean?
So I mean even if this, I don't believe it's going to fail.
I think I'm past that point now.
But even if it had, I'd still have that, you know.
Well, I gave it a shot, you know, the, you know, the man of the arena.
That's something the triumph talks about.
And I huge respect, you know that, you know, I'm gonna give it a shot.
I'm gonna give them all.
And so that's the plan, that's what's going on.
And I'm blessed and being able to do it.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Dude, that is such the right mentality with all of this, right?
Like I, I don't know.
And I've kind of adopted that mentality back when I had first moved out west, right?
So like I'm born and raised in northern Wisconsin, small town, usa.
And after I graduated college, I was lost, man.
And I was like, dude, I got to go try something different.
(08:23):
I got to go try something new.
And my older brother actually had moved away with his wife and he was like, Chris, he's like, just go try.
He's like, give it two years.
Worst case scenario, you can Go back and you'll never be able to say that you at least didn't try.
And I've kind of kept that mentality because, I mean, I've been out west now for 15 years and I'm like, that's my mentality with a lot of stuff.
(08:44):
This is, I'll never regret trying.
I'll never regret laying it all out there because you're right, you know, like, nobody actually knows if it's going to work.
And that's why, you know, that was kind of like what inspired my post last week of is that's why so many dreams go to die between idea and execution is because there is no guarantee that any of this is going to work out even for the largest companies out there, right?
(09:06):
Like there's companies that have raised hundreds of millions of dollars and gone bankrupt within 24 months, right?
And you're sitting there as like a bootstrap founder.
I'm like, how do you blow that capital, right?
Like, how do you do that?
And I like, that's why I love bootstrapping so much more than taking on investment.
I feel like I could deploy a 10 million dollar investment a lot better today because I've had five years of, you know, turning a dollar out, making a dollar out of 15 cents.
(09:35):
And you know, that hustle and that grit that comes along with it.
But that mentality alone, Sam, will save you in those inevitable dark days that will come, right?
Because I'm not going to sit here and be like, oh, Sam, everything's gonna be sunshine.
It's gonna be the hardest thing you've ever done in your life.
But there is so much of an opportunity out there from data.
You know, a lot of my friends who are founders of companies, right, Trucking companies, freight brokerages, that is like 90% of the conversations we have together is, hey, what are you doing with your data?
(10:05):
How are you deploying it and then how are you packaging that out and selling that, right?
Because like, ultimately we need to sell peace of mind to our customers.
As a broker, I need to sell peace of mind.
Like finding trucks, having access to trucks is literal table stakes, right?
Like that's going to McDonald's and having them being like, hey, isn't it great that we're selling hamburgers today?
Is literally the purpose of your business.
(10:26):
But I, I look at this as like, what are you going to do with your data?
Because we're at a point in time now with AI, like, you don't need a, this isn't Knocking any data scientists out there, you have technology at your fingertips that you can drop all your data in and say, create a lane analysis.
For me, what is the most profitable thing?
And I guarantee chat GPT within five minutes.
(10:48):
It's going to take all of that information and lay all of that out for you.
Right?
And it's like, what are you going to do with that?
Because for me, I want to sell stability to my customers.
I want to bring consistency to my customers because I feel like that's ultimately, Sam, what they're looking for.
If I'm going to quote them a thousand dollars on a lane, hypothetically between LA and Phoenix, they want it to stay at a thousand dollars.
(11:09):
They don't want to see it jack up to 1400 or anything like that.
We want to remove that roller coaster.
And I feel like with the amount of data and information that's out there, you should be able to sell that peace of mind to your customers.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah, 100%.
So a point I'll make is that, and the starting point is that brokers create and own the data, yet they're never rewarded for it.
So let me also make the point that if I think of like an oil refinery or refinery is relatively simple tech.
It's not, you know, going to Mars or whatever the case, but a refinery cannot produce or not create anything without the oil.
(11:47):
Right.
And so the current situation the brokers have is they create the data and then they easily share it for a discount for pittance and they don't get the full benefit of it.
And because they don't have that relationship with the people they supply the data to, it limits the products that can be created from it.
So in this situation, I'll further say that if you look at, you know, LLMs, you look at anthropic, open oi, grok, whoever else, the.
(12:13):
Those are competing models.
And the only reason any of those competing models exist and can function is because the data, without the data, none of those models would be able to function or exist.
You know, so it's a reason why Reddit, for example, would just collect simple text from people is worth billions and billions of dollars.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
All those data sources are extremely valuable.
Brokers have not taken advantage of the position they have with that data.
And as things get more complex, if you look at what Britain Ladd's saying, or you look at dat's acquisition and what Britain Ladd says about it, you know, it's clear to me the data owners, as long as they work together, they're the ones that have the greatest power in this situation.
If they don't, well, then as Britain Ladd will say, you know, brokers are taxis and Uber is going to make them go away.
(12:56):
I don't believe that to be the case.
Brokers are too hard working, too adaptable, and they're sitting on a huge oil field.
As long as I work that data in, they can, you know, convert their truckload cost center to a profit center and benefit from what they create.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, no, I, I agree.
And my stance is the, the early adopters of the digital freight broker, you know, the convoys of the world, the Uber freights and other companies out there, they were just too early.
Somebody's gonna lock this in.
Like, there's no doubt in my mind there's too much repeatable, scalable freight out there.
Like, and I saw this in the dry van world, the food world, man, there's too many loads a day that are all 26 pallets, 40, 000 pounds.
(13:35):
One pick, one drop between Atlanta and Chicago.
You can automate the shit out of that.
You can automate that.
There's going to be drivers who are tech savvy who are going to want that.
And that's coming, right?
Like, that's a very unpopular opinion out there.
But if you're a broker and you think for one second that cannot be built, you will be out of business one day.
(13:56):
That might be a bold claim to some of you, but there is an opportunity to do that.
It started, it worked, right?
Like, I'm not here to argue about how a company failed, run out of money or anything like that, but there was product adoption out there.
There were a lot of people out there that loved that model.
So just because they were early doesn't mean it's not going to come back and it's not going to eventually hit.
(14:19):
I truly think that it is.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yeah.
The marketplace model is old as time, you know.
And so in the case, what I view is how convoy failed or others failed, they simply didn't reach a critical mass.
You know, if you look Uber spent over $30 billion, you know, subsidizing rate and getting drivers before they had people and all those sorts of things so that they had those network effects in that marketplace.
(14:42):
That marketplace, I think will exist with freight.
What I, what I hear back from brokers and what we're building, you know, and this 80% of it will be owned by brokers.
Brokers have told me in the past, until very recently, they said, hey, just work on you know, the first thing they say is raise money from us, not VCs.
The other thing they say is just build the rate product first.
We've been promised so many things, we've heard so many things.
(15:02):
Let's build the rate promise first and then let's look at other things.
But the recent news and movements by DAT and you know, and the claim that Expedia, US bank and AI with DAT should be the model for building this marketplace has given a real, quote, jolt to other brokers to say, well, maybe we should consider that sooner and quote, this is going to be the most transformative thing we see.
(15:23):
So the question is again, who builds the marketplace?
Who owns it?
Well, the people that have the data and the best data.
It's not taking pictures of where trucks will be and not.
And processing petabytes of of pictures all the time.
It's the structured data sets that brokers already have and they see it at booking date where the truck will next be empty in three, four or five days.
(15:46):
That's the marketplace vision.
I see.
But again, brokers own 80% of it.
However brokers want it, that's how brokers will get it.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, I'm Sam.
I like.
That's one thing that I think is going to be like the true next wave of information out there is predictive analytics, right?
It's, it's an actual capacity report based on trucks in progress as opposed to historical and guesstimates.
You know what I mean?
It's that buying confidence and that selling confidence that comes along with it.
(16:13):
But so how does this work, man?
How do, how does Chris Jolly, as you know, as a freight broker come to you and be like, hey Sam, I have all these lanes, I'm quoting all this freight.
How does that work when I'm, you know, am I just like API connecting to you and sending you all of my data?
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Yeah, so I'll start to say that our seat.
So there's six of us, four PhDs.
Our CTO was the one that led the software team that built Sonar.
He built their initial API.
Okay, so we have a system set up API where we connect with brokers, they send their data, we push back to the tms, you know, the rate information.
And to be clear, that's still in progress.
We're still probably six months to a year from habit a product.
(16:55):
But of course you have to have the data before you can get the product.
So we're in progress.
We, we.
One of our advisors is Professor Jason Miller.
The way we started this process.
Is I stupidly.
And I'm sure you made mistakes too.
We all do.
But for the first seven months of me doing this, I talked to brokers and say, hey, this is what we're going to do.
This is why it matters.
Purely from an economist type perspective.
(17:16):
And brokers would say, yes, I love it.
And then they'd say, and I'd say, all right, let's get on the Sprint.
We have this set up.
Let's, let's add you.
And they'd say, all right, we'll start next month.
The next month turns in next month.
Turns the next month.
So I spoke to Andrew Peterson, who built the Freight Logistics Optimization Works program, which had shipping data when the truck, when the ships were backing up in port.
(17:37):
And he said, all right, I had the same issue.
Here's how I fixed it.
I got everyone in the room together and you got all, you know, all the data providers, in this case, brokers in the room together.
And they commiserated and they said, yeah, I don't like this should be different.
And boom, it started happening.
So I held a conference about a month and a half ago where Jason Miller came in and gave some presentations on why the benefits of this.
(17:58):
And he also talked about tariffs and other things.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
And boom, now we have 5 to 6 billion, our initial cohort.
They're in that process of redlining contracts and etc, and I'm going out to visit a few locations here in the next week and a half.
And so, and so now it's gone from hey, this is how it is to hey, they actually picture it.
They actually, you know, see the process happening.
That's how we're moving forward.
And we'll do the second cohort in probably 2, 3 months.
(18:22):
And this time it's probably gonna be Chicago, but we're gonna hold a vote audit on LinkedIn shortly.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Okay.
No, so it's essentially a, back in the farming world of northern Wisconsin, it's like a co op, essentially, right, where it's like there's a bunch of people supplying it in, you know, for those of you who aren't privy to how milk is brought in from the farms, most of them, you guys are a bunch of local farms are sent into a co op that's there for milk, grain, a bunch of stuff like that, and then they take it.
(18:49):
And then, you know, a big supplier comes in and buys that inventory and, you know, resells it out for processing and stuff like that.
And so essentially that's what it seemingly is.
So like for the most part you guys are taking a lot of it.
And this is a pricing focused tool for the most part right when and then is this more of helping you quote out for near term, long term, is it, you know, obviously it's taking hysteric historical data and then it's spitting out like a future of like estimate on where you see things trending.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
So the initial is more short term.
We definitely me and many members of the team have done predictive modeling for predicting future race, etc.
That'll be part of it as well.
The biggest change is that all our data we get immediately after booking date.
And another difference is since brokers are rewarded for the data they share, they're able to share it more timely.
(19:41):
They also share is a liftgate team Hazmat specialized overweight anything that affects pricing that currently a lot of data providers will give you the 25th percentile, the average and 75th.
And they can't show you the full distribution.
We'll show the full distribution so you can see how that shifts.
You can see what the tails look like.
We'll give a version that doesn't clean it.
(20:02):
Then we'll give a version that removes all those additional type non standardized loads will show the actual trucks in and out of market.
We'll give you certain options like let's say you want to see the quote without anything booked 12 hours before pickup because that short lead times pushing up the price.
You want to drop that out?
Yeah, that's fine too.
We have all the lead time information.
So essentially you know this system creates fixes the two problems brokers commonly complain about.
(20:25):
One is they say oh there's all.
There's a specialized late in that fret bed flatbed or there's a Hazmat in that van or those rates aren't right.
And the other thing is they don't like that they pay for it.
They're literally giving the oil the ground.
They get a discount for supplying data.
Then they make nothing when it's sold to carriers and shippers, assuming it is.
So in this case they benefit from the data they create and they get a superior product because they're willing to create and I'm willing to share superior data.
(20:51):
And that opens up a lot of other property product opportunities as well including the marketplace.
We discussed a little bit.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
No, definitely.
What, what do most people get wrong about their data Sam?
When, when they're coming to you and you know saying one thing or another.
What do most people get wrong about their data?
Speaker 3 (21:11):
I, I think that's tough.
I, I think most people don't appreciate how valuable it is or at least they've settled for what they're provided for.
So I know either they either simply they don't see the value or like it's like you know, I think about being in high school and dating, you know, you're dating someone and you know.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Hey, you date, you're going out and.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
What you move, you know, you're, you know, but you've settled.
It's not really what's the best interest for you because it's easy now.
I think a lot of the relationships that brokers have with their data providers it's just the way it's always been and, but you know, once you tell them and show them that you know, you can have a superior rate product if you wish to build a marketplace.
You can if you wish you know, you know like 50, 59 of ton miles are from.
(21:59):
We know this from Jason Miller are from manufacturing.
If you want to have a product that is a real time ISM PMI number based on putting that data together and seeing what trucks coming out of manufacturing facilities you can produce that and have that revenue share of that as well.
If some future date you follow Brad Jacobs or what Craig Fuller tried to build, you want a freight future pricing source, you want the revenue for that and you want to be able to plan that out for your business as well.
(22:22):
You can buy too.
But all those opportunities can exist and others I know I'm not thinking of that brokers will tell me they want to have those can only exist for high quality data.
And if you don't use your high quality data and take advantage of it, extract that value from it, then someone else will.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I think from my seat I think that there is a lot of misinterpretation on how to actually quote freight.
There are they use.
There's too much of an emphasis Sam on a national average out there.
Right.
And people live and die by that.
And, and that's why it's like I, I try and like anytime I see stuff out there like oh, the national average is at $2.20amile of hypothetical example here you guys.
(23:04):
I look at that.
I'm like that is yes, it's good to know but that is not applicable to the majority of the relationships that most transportation providers have with customers.
I would like and you might know this Sam how much freight moves out there.
That is RF Published RFP rates, for example, how much of that is actually that how much of the market makes that up?
(23:28):
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Just so when you say publisher you mean.
Well here I mean I can tell you like spot is, you know, anywhere from 10 to 20% of the 415 to 25% of the 400 million 400 billion for hire market.
But from RFPs you mean on the shipper to broker basis or shipper to carrier basis?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Let's toss in both there because I think like when you're out there and you're looking at published, for example, that is, you know, that long term pricing that comes on out there in the market.
It's a different sales strategy, it's a different style.
The majority of the freight that a lot of us are given access to early on in a relationship with the customer and some customers only live on the spot market is that it's that last minute stuff.
(24:14):
And you know, if you're out there and you're trying to price freight based on a national average of oh, $2amile or whatever, you know, again this is just a hypothetical example.
You're missing out.
You're going to under quote your freight.
You know, like if you're looking, you're quoting Phoenix to LA, for example, it's 300 miles you're going to pay in most markets.
Maybe not today, but in most markets it's going to be exponentially more expensive to ship that out for a Friday to a Monday than it is for a Thursday to Friday or another day of the week.
(24:42):
Or you know, it's that gray area miles, right?
Most drivers for weekends runs, they want miles, right?
They do not want to take something for a thousand miles.
They want 1500 plus miles so they can run out there.
That's gonna negatively affect your price if you're going out there and you're bidding at that published rate that you can see out there in certain examples.
So it's like to me data that you see out there is a reference point but like you need to understand the factors that come in with it, right?
(25:09):
That's just the miles here.
We're not talking loading times, unloading times, if that has to pick up on Friday at 8:00am dude, most of that stuff, right?
There's so many different factors that come into this and that's why it's like I see this out there and I'm like yes, it's pertinent information, it's good to know.
But is that applicable to your customer?
What are the Load requirements that come along with this.
(25:31):
And then again, how much lead time do you have with this?
Is this a, we need a truck here in the next hour or is this a, hey man, this is for next week.
Come in, you got plenty of time to work it.
It's available to ship any day in the next four days.
So there's a lot of different parameters.
And that's why it's like when I'm sitting here and I see a lot of information out there's so much finality behind it, like, oh, this is where the market's at.
(25:53):
False.
I am here to tell you that is unequivocally a false statement as a applicable across the board.
All right?
There is so much information that you need to take and again, you need to be able to decide within less than 3 minutes what you're going to quote on that customer.
Because if you're not, trust me, if you're competing with me, I've already quoted that customer, I've already had it.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
So.
So several things there.
I mean, you're hitting a lot of great points with the lead time that you expect.
It's also, what rejection rate do they expect?
Are you gonna, how do they expect 100 coverage and let short lead time?
Another thing too is that at Covenant I produced a, a heat map that showed it divided up day of the week and divided up 7am to 9am to 3pm and then like, you know, 3pm to like 6pm and if you're in those high traffic times of 7 to 9 or 4 to 6pm type range on Monday or Friday, especially your pricing or at least your travel, you know, miles per hour on average is substantially different.
(26:51):
And of course that affects utilization, that affects your cost, your fuel consumption, everything, your driver's time, hours of service.
But there's not a great data source to have all the information available.
What we're proposing to put together 70, you know, 70 billion of the spot market, the 100, 110 billion of the spot market.
And we're going to have substantial data.
And how do we get all that market together, our market data together?
(27:13):
Because brokers own 80% of the company.
You come in, you know, if you're the largest, you get largest equity, your second largest equity, and then you have all that data to make all those intelligent decisions.
And this is important for multiple reasons.
One is of course, if you can offer a carrier a better load, right, they have less deadhead, it's more of what route they want, etcetera you have the information then they'll cut, they'll take a lower rate because they can have the same or lower or based on that better match that fits their needs.
(27:43):
The other thing too is that the driver is driving less time for you know, if you cut the, the deadhead from let's say 35 to 25 for the average interoperator their average load is an hour less.
You know, they get non monetary benefits that which means they can, you know, run more miles, more loaded miles I should say have a better lifestyle or use more utilization.
(28:04):
All those things come into play, you know, so but again you can't do that or make those great decisions unless in advance you have that data and you understand your data and how these roles, how these different situations affect what pricing should be for you.
Because it's not just simply the load of miles, it's the time, what time, what rate you're going to travel, what's your weight, what's the change in altitude.
All sorts of things have to be considered to go into that pricing component that's not being considered out.
(28:27):
It's kind of guesstimate estimate.
But eventually all those pricing things will come into play in a more quantifiable perspective.
But not under the current system because the current system brokers don't share that data with DAT or others because they don't get rewarded for it.
And that causes a lot of silo in data and a lot of dead weight losses.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Do you know, as we're kind of this flew by.
I knew it was going to fly by Sam, but I want to kind of wrap up and I want to ask you this.
What do you think is the biggest threat to the freight market over the next six to 12 months?
What do you think most people are predicting that are wrong?
Speaker 3 (29:08):
I mean I continue to, you know, let's say you know, PMIs come out, you know, below 50 last, you know, contractions last five months.
I don't see that really changing higher still and aluminum prices are going to make that worse downstream production, you know, so that those lower prices, I mean sorry there's tariffs on aluminum steel do affect aluminum steel producers but everything downstream gets hurt and that's a lot of manufacturing capacity.
(29:35):
The other thing is, you know, the jobs numbers are indicating that you know, things are pretty negative and including the previous revisions that happen and those revisions happen normal all the time.
They're a normal part of the process because you make the best decision you can with the data you have as more Comes in, you make the better decision.
I, I don't know that people are getting it wrong.
I still think that, you know, I'm not seeing any uptick, meaningful, you know, until 2026.
(30:00):
But again, my current role isn't to predict the rates.
But I'll say too my, our advisors, Jason Miller, I went after him because I've seen him slap, you know, or talk about, you know, this provider of data etc did it wrong.
This is why and going through details and I told him, you know, as a friend and as a business partner, I said please be my advisor because I don't want to ever be on that side of the conversation with you.
(30:22):
So for those details, I'll say if you guys aren't following Professor Jason Miller, you 100 should be.
He is, he is the data trucking expert in the room.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
I 100 agree with that.
I think Jason Miller is a phenomenal follow out there.
And you know, I, I also look at it as I, you know, you need to look at different viewpoints in the industry because I feel like at the end of the day, and I think this is what operators biggest threats are in their business is they only listen to the echo chamber.
(30:52):
They only listen to people who agree with them and say what they say out there.
And I do not think that makes you a solid operator.
You need to listen to dissenting viewpoints.
You need to listen to polar opposite viewpoints.
And it will either solidify your stance or it will make you see things through a different lens.
Because I mean, do I, I feel like I've been saying this for almost a year now.
(31:13):
I don't think anything's changing anytime soon in the freight market.
I do not at all.
There has to be an exist, an exodus of capacity to show any meaningful change out there.
Otherwise this is the way things are going to be for the foreseeable future.
I, I've been kind of saying 2026, but at this point, man, I have not seen any event or indicator out there that shows that anything's going to change in the next 12 months outside of a mass exodus of capacity.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Yeah, and some people were hanging out their hat on English language proficiency requirements, but it's not seeing that reduction.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I mean, and the, my biggest counter argument to that is the enforcement of it.
All right?
You're like, you are actually needing the Department of Transportation to enforce that on every single time out there.
All right?
And that is what I don't see.
You can follow the party line of the States out there that might do it.
But, you know, again, you guys, this is coming from somebody who actually books freight.
(32:13):
I have not come across that many providers out there where the driver is not overly qualified to haul that freight, you know, so it's like, I do not think that's going to be as big of a deal as people think.
Now, again, I could be wrong, but from what I'm seeing out there, I, I, I feel like the biggest thing is the overall enforcement of it.
(32:34):
And I just don't see it actually being rolled out to a point where that's going to make that but much of a meaningful change out there.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
So.
Well, hey, Sam, I appreciate your time, man.
I'm gonna have to get you back on as things continue to develop on your end.
How does anybody reach out to you, man, if they want to sign up, start becoming a part of this, man?
How do they reach out to you and find out more?
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn or you can go to just email us at info Chokai AI or just Google you'll cross me.
And I appreciate your time, Chris.
It's, you know, it's a pleasure.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Absolutely.
Sam, thank you so much for joining.
If you can't find Sam out there, you guys hit me up.
I will gladly put you guys in direct contact with them, but that's going to be it for today, ladies and gentlemen.
As always, if you got value in what you heard, subscribe to the show, you guys.
And if you're feeling really ambitious after this one, rank the show on itunes and Spotify.
Because if you see value, your network's going to see it as well.
I appreciate you guys.
I love you guys.
(33:29):
And we'll be talking to you.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Came back with a bank hey got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when the blame moving fast hey let them all cross if they hate then let them hate them Make a bigger ball.
Came back with a bank window down Yelling now money anything hey oh Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when I'm get to the back hey Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when the blame moving fast hey Let them all cross if they hate then let them hate to make a bigger ball.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hey, what is up, ladies and gentlemen?
We are back.
We are live.
It is the Freight Coach Podcast, the top podcast in transportation, coming to you guys every single weekday, 8:30am Pacific, 10:30 Central, to break down some industry headlines.
But most importantly, you guys provide some actual insight into what you can do with all of this information.
If this is your first time tuning in, welcome.
(00:45):
This is the real side of freight, ladies and gentlemen.
And I do say that before every single show.
And what I mean by that is I only speak with transportation professionals because at the end of the day, you guys, I want to talk to the right individuals who have done what you're looking to do or who are currently doing what you're trying to achieve, so you can take that information, apply it, utilize it, and see a meaningful difference in your business and your life.
(01:05):
Happy Monday, everybody.
I got a very special guest for you guys here today, somebody who I followed for a long time, connected with them over the years, and he's got some really exciting things that he's releasing here right now.
And, you know, rates like getting access to freight.
I would say if I was to break down the amount of questions that I get asked, how do I find shippers?
(01:25):
Is probably like the.
The number one question that I've always been asked out there.
Number two is how do I quote?
So we're going to talk about a lot of this, a lot of raid intelligence, and I have my friend Sam Tibbs on the phone down the show today.
I was almost at the phone, man.
We're just.
We're too old for this stuff, Sam.
So, Sam, thank you so much for taking the time to join me today.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I appreciate it.
Yeah.
And I got a few years on you, so.
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
I appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
No, absolutely, man.
And I'm glad were able to make this happen.
You know, when we.
The last time we saw each other in person was in April out in San Antonio this year.
And, you know, you were like, hey, I got this thing coming on.
It's not official yet.
It's going to be official here soon.
And, you know, I'm really glad were able to take that time to.
To make this happen today.
But, Sam, I Want to start this out, man, because it's your first time on the show.
(02:12):
How'd you get your start in freight?
What brought you into the industry?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
You know, like many, essentially, I had a, so my family's outside the Chattanooga area and I was living overseas.
I used to be a finance professor.
Family emergency.
You got to come in and take care of family.
So when you do that, when you leave academics promptly like that, you can't just get our academic position because they're always planning semesters in advance.
(02:37):
At first I thought it was like, it's terrible, but you got to do what you got to do for family.
But I got the good fortune of starting a position at Covenant Transport, who was right here working on the data science team later on in freight waves and then, and just on from there.
So it's really just kind of chance just because of essentially where I live, Chattanooga area, it's Freight Alley.
It's a, you know, per capita, sorry, Chicago, but at least per capita we are the freight.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, no, I mean there, I, I don't know of anyone in this industry that hasn't been touched by the city of Chattanooga in some way, shape or form that works out here.
Right.
It's like they're, whether there's a satellite office there, they started there or what.
It's, there's no denying it.
Right.
Like, we have the joke out here in Phoenix, man.
It's called Freight Alley, where the real transportation capital of the world is Freight Valley, because they called Phoenix the Valley of the Sun.
(03:27):
So that's just an inside joke out here for all our West Coasters, man.
But, so like, what does a data science role look like in a transportation company?
Because, you know, kind of like what were talking about, Sam, before we started.
There's so much information that's out there.
But, you know, a lot of the larger companies, they operate at a different level.
Right.
And they, the, their strategy is vastly different than the 90% of the industry that is small business out there.
(03:53):
So what does a data science role look like?
And how does that really work in a trucking company?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Great question.
So first I'll start and say that I, when I first applied for jobs when I moved here, and this gives a little more background, I, I, I couldn't get an interview for like 12 months because I was applying for finance jobs.
My finance background didn't put me well into finance jobs.
So at the time I didn't even know what data science was.
Yeah, I saw an article Sexiest job in America, something like that.
(04:20):
Said data science.
So I changed my resume because a lot of my academic research and the models that are used is data science work.
So I immediately got interview at Freight Waves right before they had their series A and I had a freightway an interview at Covenant and I had the pleasure of working at Covenant Transport then later Freight Waves.
But with data science work essentially in all facets of your life there is data being produced.
(04:42):
And my goal in that function is to help make that data better for the customers, for the users, for all those people that are involved.
So the case of coming to transport I, I built an example of profit analyzer which we would look in detail the profitability the truck company was making by Lane in real time considering all the cost functions, the time, the, the cost of a reefer vs van etc and I better able to make, you know, provide input to what, make better decisions for the trucking company.
(05:11):
So I'm very proud of that.
That was the first thing.
And I decided too that when I stepped into this trucking role, I'm never going to be unemployed again.
I'm going to make sure I read everything, do everything, anything I can do to make myself better because I got a family to take care of and I'm not going to be that same position again because those 12 months of being unemployed was worse than any job I've had.
Digging ditch hole, you know, fence posts would better job than being unemployed.
(05:34):
So anyway, that's a little intro.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
No, I, I share that same sentiment.
You know what I mean Sam?
Like I, you know, when I first started my company and everything I, you know, I delivered pizzas at part time for you know, eight, nine months just to make sure that my bills were paid at that time.
And you know, and it's like I pain you're describing right there Sam is like that is way worse to me than any opinion anybody else would have by what I have to do to provide for my family.
(06:02):
And you know, news flash for those out there who might be embarrassed about that, real people out there who are actually building stuff respect that way more than you could ever know because it is doing whatever it takes.
And that's a skill set that I'm sure you're already realizing now about going out and starting your company.
So Trochai, let's talk about this man.
(06:23):
What, what is this?
What kind of inspired that to go from hey, I'm gonna like, I want to go out on my own and make this happen.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
100%.
So.
So I little background when I started because my economics background, finance background, I started in pricing and I, you know, I worked at Covenant, worked at Freightways, worked Leaf Logistics, worked at Cloud Trucks.
Then last I was a Triumph Financial working on a rating product for them.
And I love the work, it was very interesting.
(06:51):
I disagreed with some of how it was calculated or how it was done.
I shouldn't say calculated but the data source but was very clear to me in that process is that people want a different rate product, they want additional options, they know the 800 pound grill in the room is DAT and they want something to compete with based on the pricing pressure.
So when you know, trying financial, you know, with the rates down, they cut my position, they cut my project and I was on free reign.
(07:16):
But I knew what every broker was telling me about the, what they wanted additional products.
So I reached out my friends and said, hey, you know, I've wanted to build something a long time.
I think this is the opportunity, it's in my lap.
I've done it, I've had all the experience.
So I decided, you know, hey, you know, let's take a risk.
I don't, you know, and importantly one thing that was really driving forces.
I don't want to be on my deathbed, you know, thinking, well what if I tried that?
(07:41):
You know what I mean?
So I mean even if this, I don't believe it's going to fail.
I think I'm past that point now.
But even if it had, I'd still have that, you know.
Well, I gave it a shot, you know, the, you know, the man of the arena.
That's something the triumph talks about.
And I huge respect, you know that, you know, I'm gonna give it a shot.
I'm gonna give them all.
And so that's the plan, that's what's going on.
And I'm blessed and being able to do it.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Dude, that is such the right mentality with all of this, right?
Like I, I don't know.
And I've kind of adopted that mentality back when I had first moved out west, right?
So like I'm born and raised in northern Wisconsin, small town, usa.
And after I graduated college, I was lost, man.
And I was like, dude, I got to go try something different.
(08:23):
I got to go try something new.
And my older brother actually had moved away with his wife and he was like, Chris, he's like, just go try.
He's like, give it two years.
Worst case scenario, you can Go back and you'll never be able to say that you at least didn't try.
And I've kind of kept that mentality because, I mean, I've been out west now for 15 years and I'm like, that's my mentality with a lot of stuff.
(08:44):
This is, I'll never regret trying.
I'll never regret laying it all out there because you're right, you know, like, nobody actually knows if it's going to work.
And that's why, you know, that was kind of like what inspired my post last week of is that's why so many dreams go to die between idea and execution is because there is no guarantee that any of this is going to work out even for the largest companies out there, right?
(09:06):
Like there's companies that have raised hundreds of millions of dollars and gone bankrupt within 24 months, right?
And you're sitting there as like a bootstrap founder.
I'm like, how do you blow that capital, right?
Like, how do you do that?
And I like, that's why I love bootstrapping so much more than taking on investment.
I feel like I could deploy a 10 million dollar investment a lot better today because I've had five years of, you know, turning a dollar out, making a dollar out of 15 cents.
(09:35):
And you know, that hustle and that grit that comes along with it.
But that mentality alone, Sam, will save you in those inevitable dark days that will come, right?
Because I'm not going to sit here and be like, oh, Sam, everything's gonna be sunshine.
It's gonna be the hardest thing you've ever done in your life.
But there is so much of an opportunity out there from data.
You know, a lot of my friends who are founders of companies, right, Trucking companies, freight brokerages, that is like 90% of the conversations we have together is, hey, what are you doing with your data?
(10:05):
How are you deploying it and then how are you packaging that out and selling that, right?
Because like, ultimately we need to sell peace of mind to our customers.
As a broker, I need to sell peace of mind.
Like finding trucks, having access to trucks is literal table stakes, right?
Like that's going to McDonald's and having them being like, hey, isn't it great that we're selling hamburgers today?
Is literally the purpose of your business.
(10:26):
But I, I look at this as like, what are you going to do with your data?
Because we're at a point in time now with AI, like, you don't need a, this isn't Knocking any data scientists out there, you have technology at your fingertips that you can drop all your data in and say, create a lane analysis.
For me, what is the most profitable thing?
And I guarantee chat GPT within five minutes.
(10:48):
It's going to take all of that information and lay all of that out for you.
Right?
And it's like, what are you going to do with that?
Because for me, I want to sell stability to my customers.
I want to bring consistency to my customers because I feel like that's ultimately, Sam, what they're looking for.
If I'm going to quote them a thousand dollars on a lane, hypothetically between LA and Phoenix, they want it to stay at a thousand dollars.
(11:09):
They don't want to see it jack up to 1400 or anything like that.
We want to remove that roller coaster.
And I feel like with the amount of data and information that's out there, you should be able to sell that peace of mind to your customers.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah, 100%.
So a point I'll make is that, and the starting point is that brokers create and own the data, yet they're never rewarded for it.
So let me also make the point that if I think of like an oil refinery or refinery is relatively simple tech.
It's not, you know, going to Mars or whatever the case, but a refinery cannot produce or not create anything without the oil.
(11:47):
Right.
And so the current situation the brokers have is they create the data and then they easily share it for a discount for pittance and they don't get the full benefit of it.
And because they don't have that relationship with the people they supply the data to, it limits the products that can be created from it.
So in this situation, I'll further say that if you look at, you know, LLMs, you look at anthropic, open oi, grok, whoever else, the.
(12:13):
Those are competing models.
And the only reason any of those competing models exist and can function is because the data, without the data, none of those models would be able to function or exist.
You know, so it's a reason why Reddit, for example, would just collect simple text from people is worth billions and billions of dollars.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
All those data sources are extremely valuable.
Brokers have not taken advantage of the position they have with that data.
And as things get more complex, if you look at what Britain Ladd's saying, or you look at dat's acquisition and what Britain Ladd says about it, you know, it's clear to me the data owners, as long as they work together, they're the ones that have the greatest power in this situation.
If they don't, well, then as Britain Ladd will say, you know, brokers are taxis and Uber is going to make them go away.
(12:56):
I don't believe that to be the case.
Brokers are too hard working, too adaptable, and they're sitting on a huge oil field.
As long as I work that data in, they can, you know, convert their truckload cost center to a profit center and benefit from what they create.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, no, I, I agree.
And my stance is the, the early adopters of the digital freight broker, you know, the convoys of the world, the Uber freights and other companies out there, they were just too early.
Somebody's gonna lock this in.
Like, there's no doubt in my mind there's too much repeatable, scalable freight out there.
Like, and I saw this in the dry van world, the food world, man, there's too many loads a day that are all 26 pallets, 40, 000 pounds.
(13:35):
One pick, one drop between Atlanta and Chicago.
You can automate the shit out of that.
You can automate that.
There's going to be drivers who are tech savvy who are going to want that.
And that's coming, right?
Like, that's a very unpopular opinion out there.
But if you're a broker and you think for one second that cannot be built, you will be out of business one day.
(13:56):
That might be a bold claim to some of you, but there is an opportunity to do that.
It started, it worked, right?
Like, I'm not here to argue about how a company failed, run out of money or anything like that, but there was product adoption out there.
There were a lot of people out there that loved that model.
So just because they were early doesn't mean it's not going to come back and it's not going to eventually hit.
(14:19):
I truly think that it is.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yeah.
The marketplace model is old as time, you know.
And so in the case, what I view is how convoy failed or others failed, they simply didn't reach a critical mass.
You know, if you look Uber spent over $30 billion, you know, subsidizing rate and getting drivers before they had people and all those sorts of things so that they had those network effects in that marketplace.
(14:42):
That marketplace, I think will exist with freight.
What I, what I hear back from brokers and what we're building, you know, and this 80% of it will be owned by brokers.
Brokers have told me in the past, until very recently, they said, hey, just work on you know, the first thing they say is raise money from us, not VCs.
The other thing they say is just build the rate product first.
We've been promised so many things, we've heard so many things.
(15:02):
Let's build the rate promise first and then let's look at other things.
But the recent news and movements by DAT and you know, and the claim that Expedia, US bank and AI with DAT should be the model for building this marketplace has given a real, quote, jolt to other brokers to say, well, maybe we should consider that sooner and quote, this is going to be the most transformative thing we see.
(15:23):
So the question is again, who builds the marketplace?
Who owns it?
Well, the people that have the data and the best data.
It's not taking pictures of where trucks will be and not.
And processing petabytes of of pictures all the time.
It's the structured data sets that brokers already have and they see it at booking date where the truck will next be empty in three, four or five days.
(15:46):
That's the marketplace vision.
I see.
But again, brokers own 80% of it.
However brokers want it, that's how brokers will get it.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, I'm Sam.
I like.
That's one thing that I think is going to be like the true next wave of information out there is predictive analytics, right?
It's, it's an actual capacity report based on trucks in progress as opposed to historical and guesstimates.
You know what I mean?
It's that buying confidence and that selling confidence that comes along with it.
(16:13):
But so how does this work, man?
How do, how does Chris Jolly, as you know, as a freight broker come to you and be like, hey Sam, I have all these lanes, I'm quoting all this freight.
How does that work when I'm, you know, am I just like API connecting to you and sending you all of my data?
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Yeah, so I'll start to say that our seat.
So there's six of us, four PhDs.
Our CTO was the one that led the software team that built Sonar.
He built their initial API.
Okay, so we have a system set up API where we connect with brokers, they send their data, we push back to the tms, you know, the rate information.
And to be clear, that's still in progress.
We're still probably six months to a year from habit a product.
(16:55):
But of course you have to have the data before you can get the product.
So we're in progress.
We, we.
One of our advisors is Professor Jason Miller.
The way we started this process.
Is I stupidly.
And I'm sure you made mistakes too.
We all do.
But for the first seven months of me doing this, I talked to brokers and say, hey, this is what we're going to do.
This is why it matters.
Purely from an economist type perspective.
(17:16):
And brokers would say, yes, I love it.
And then they'd say, and I'd say, all right, let's get on the Sprint.
We have this set up.
Let's, let's add you.
And they'd say, all right, we'll start next month.
The next month turns in next month.
Turns the next month.
So I spoke to Andrew Peterson, who built the Freight Logistics Optimization Works program, which had shipping data when the truck, when the ships were backing up in port.
(17:37):
And he said, all right, I had the same issue.
Here's how I fixed it.
I got everyone in the room together and you got all, you know, all the data providers, in this case, brokers in the room together.
And they commiserated and they said, yeah, I don't like this should be different.
And boom, it started happening.
So I held a conference about a month and a half ago where Jason Miller came in and gave some presentations on why the benefits of this.
(17:58):
And he also talked about tariffs and other things.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
And boom, now we have 5 to 6 billion, our initial cohort.
They're in that process of redlining contracts and etc, and I'm going out to visit a few locations here in the next week and a half.
And so, and so now it's gone from hey, this is how it is to hey, they actually picture it.
They actually, you know, see the process happening.
That's how we're moving forward.
And we'll do the second cohort in probably 2, 3 months.
(18:22):
And this time it's probably gonna be Chicago, but we're gonna hold a vote audit on LinkedIn shortly.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Okay.
No, so it's essentially a, back in the farming world of northern Wisconsin, it's like a co op, essentially, right, where it's like there's a bunch of people supplying it in, you know, for those of you who aren't privy to how milk is brought in from the farms, most of them, you guys are a bunch of local farms are sent into a co op that's there for milk, grain, a bunch of stuff like that, and then they take it.
(18:49):
And then, you know, a big supplier comes in and buys that inventory and, you know, resells it out for processing and stuff like that.
And so essentially that's what it seemingly is.
So like for the most part you guys are taking a lot of it.
And this is a pricing focused tool for the most part right when and then is this more of helping you quote out for near term, long term, is it, you know, obviously it's taking hysteric historical data and then it's spitting out like a future of like estimate on where you see things trending.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
So the initial is more short term.
We definitely me and many members of the team have done predictive modeling for predicting future race, etc.
That'll be part of it as well.
The biggest change is that all our data we get immediately after booking date.
And another difference is since brokers are rewarded for the data they share, they're able to share it more timely.
(19:41):
They also share is a liftgate team Hazmat specialized overweight anything that affects pricing that currently a lot of data providers will give you the 25th percentile, the average and 75th.
And they can't show you the full distribution.
We'll show the full distribution so you can see how that shifts.
You can see what the tails look like.
We'll give a version that doesn't clean it.
(20:02):
Then we'll give a version that removes all those additional type non standardized loads will show the actual trucks in and out of market.
We'll give you certain options like let's say you want to see the quote without anything booked 12 hours before pickup because that short lead times pushing up the price.
You want to drop that out?
Yeah, that's fine too.
We have all the lead time information.
So essentially you know this system creates fixes the two problems brokers commonly complain about.
(20:25):
One is they say oh there's all.
There's a specialized late in that fret bed flatbed or there's a Hazmat in that van or those rates aren't right.
And the other thing is they don't like that they pay for it.
They're literally giving the oil the ground.
They get a discount for supplying data.
Then they make nothing when it's sold to carriers and shippers, assuming it is.
So in this case they benefit from the data they create and they get a superior product because they're willing to create and I'm willing to share superior data.
(20:51):
And that opens up a lot of other property product opportunities as well including the marketplace.
We discussed a little bit.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
No, definitely.
What, what do most people get wrong about their data Sam?
When, when they're coming to you and you know saying one thing or another.
What do most people get wrong about their data?
Speaker 3 (21:11):
I, I think that's tough.
I, I think most people don't appreciate how valuable it is or at least they've settled for what they're provided for.
So I know either they either simply they don't see the value or like it's like you know, I think about being in high school and dating, you know, you're dating someone and you know.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Hey, you date, you're going out and.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
What you move, you know, you're, you know, but you've settled.
It's not really what's the best interest for you because it's easy now.
I think a lot of the relationships that brokers have with their data providers it's just the way it's always been and, but you know, once you tell them and show them that you know, you can have a superior rate product if you wish to build a marketplace.
You can if you wish you know, you know like 50, 59 of ton miles are from.
(21:59):
We know this from Jason Miller are from manufacturing.
If you want to have a product that is a real time ISM PMI number based on putting that data together and seeing what trucks coming out of manufacturing facilities you can produce that and have that revenue share of that as well.
If some future date you follow Brad Jacobs or what Craig Fuller tried to build, you want a freight future pricing source, you want the revenue for that and you want to be able to plan that out for your business as well.
(22:22):
You can buy too.
But all those opportunities can exist and others I know I'm not thinking of that brokers will tell me they want to have those can only exist for high quality data.
And if you don't use your high quality data and take advantage of it, extract that value from it, then someone else will.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I think from my seat I think that there is a lot of misinterpretation on how to actually quote freight.
There are they use.
There's too much of an emphasis Sam on a national average out there.
Right.
And people live and die by that.
And, and that's why it's like I, I try and like anytime I see stuff out there like oh, the national average is at $2.20amile of hypothetical example here you guys.
(23:04):
I look at that.
I'm like that is yes, it's good to know but that is not applicable to the majority of the relationships that most transportation providers have with customers.
I would like and you might know this Sam how much freight moves out there.
That is RF Published RFP rates, for example, how much of that is actually that how much of the market makes that up?
(23:28):
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Just so when you say publisher you mean.
Well here I mean I can tell you like spot is, you know, anywhere from 10 to 20% of the 415 to 25% of the 400 million 400 billion for hire market.
But from RFPs you mean on the shipper to broker basis or shipper to carrier basis?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Let's toss in both there because I think like when you're out there and you're looking at published, for example, that is, you know, that long term pricing that comes on out there in the market.
It's a different sales strategy, it's a different style.
The majority of the freight that a lot of us are given access to early on in a relationship with the customer and some customers only live on the spot market is that it's that last minute stuff.
(24:14):
And you know, if you're out there and you're trying to price freight based on a national average of oh, $2amile or whatever, you know, again this is just a hypothetical example.
You're missing out.
You're going to under quote your freight.
You know, like if you're looking, you're quoting Phoenix to LA, for example, it's 300 miles you're going to pay in most markets.
Maybe not today, but in most markets it's going to be exponentially more expensive to ship that out for a Friday to a Monday than it is for a Thursday to Friday or another day of the week.
(24:42):
Or you know, it's that gray area miles, right?
Most drivers for weekends runs, they want miles, right?
They do not want to take something for a thousand miles.
They want 1500 plus miles so they can run out there.
That's gonna negatively affect your price if you're going out there and you're bidding at that published rate that you can see out there in certain examples.
So it's like to me data that you see out there is a reference point but like you need to understand the factors that come in with it, right?
(25:09):
That's just the miles here.
We're not talking loading times, unloading times, if that has to pick up on Friday at 8:00am dude, most of that stuff, right?
There's so many different factors that come into this and that's why it's like I see this out there and I'm like yes, it's pertinent information, it's good to know.
But is that applicable to your customer?
What are the Load requirements that come along with this.
(25:31):
And then again, how much lead time do you have with this?
Is this a, we need a truck here in the next hour or is this a, hey man, this is for next week.
Come in, you got plenty of time to work it.
It's available to ship any day in the next four days.
So there's a lot of different parameters.
And that's why it's like when I'm sitting here and I see a lot of information out there's so much finality behind it, like, oh, this is where the market's at.
(25:53):
False.
I am here to tell you that is unequivocally a false statement as a applicable across the board.
All right?
There is so much information that you need to take and again, you need to be able to decide within less than 3 minutes what you're going to quote on that customer.
Because if you're not, trust me, if you're competing with me, I've already quoted that customer, I've already had it.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
So.
So several things there.
I mean, you're hitting a lot of great points with the lead time that you expect.
It's also, what rejection rate do they expect?
Are you gonna, how do they expect 100 coverage and let short lead time?
Another thing too is that at Covenant I produced a, a heat map that showed it divided up day of the week and divided up 7am to 9am to 3pm and then like, you know, 3pm to like 6pm and if you're in those high traffic times of 7 to 9 or 4 to 6pm type range on Monday or Friday, especially your pricing or at least your travel, you know, miles per hour on average is substantially different.
(26:51):
And of course that affects utilization, that affects your cost, your fuel consumption, everything, your driver's time, hours of service.
But there's not a great data source to have all the information available.
What we're proposing to put together 70, you know, 70 billion of the spot market, the 100, 110 billion of the spot market.
And we're going to have substantial data.
And how do we get all that market together, our market data together?
(27:13):
Because brokers own 80% of the company.
You come in, you know, if you're the largest, you get largest equity, your second largest equity, and then you have all that data to make all those intelligent decisions.
And this is important for multiple reasons.
One is of course, if you can offer a carrier a better load, right, they have less deadhead, it's more of what route they want, etcetera you have the information then they'll cut, they'll take a lower rate because they can have the same or lower or based on that better match that fits their needs.
(27:43):
The other thing too is that the driver is driving less time for you know, if you cut the, the deadhead from let's say 35 to 25 for the average interoperator their average load is an hour less.
You know, they get non monetary benefits that which means they can, you know, run more miles, more loaded miles I should say have a better lifestyle or use more utilization.
(28:04):
All those things come into play, you know, so but again you can't do that or make those great decisions unless in advance you have that data and you understand your data and how these roles, how these different situations affect what pricing should be for you.
Because it's not just simply the load of miles, it's the time, what time, what rate you're going to travel, what's your weight, what's the change in altitude.
All sorts of things have to be considered to go into that pricing component that's not being considered out.
(28:27):
It's kind of guesstimate estimate.
But eventually all those pricing things will come into play in a more quantifiable perspective.
But not under the current system because the current system brokers don't share that data with DAT or others because they don't get rewarded for it.
And that causes a lot of silo in data and a lot of dead weight losses.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Do you know, as we're kind of this flew by.
I knew it was going to fly by Sam, but I want to kind of wrap up and I want to ask you this.
What do you think is the biggest threat to the freight market over the next six to 12 months?
What do you think most people are predicting that are wrong?
Speaker 3 (29:08):
I mean I continue to, you know, let's say you know, PMIs come out, you know, below 50 last, you know, contractions last five months.
I don't see that really changing higher still and aluminum prices are going to make that worse downstream production, you know, so that those lower prices, I mean sorry there's tariffs on aluminum steel do affect aluminum steel producers but everything downstream gets hurt and that's a lot of manufacturing capacity.
(29:35):
The other thing is, you know, the jobs numbers are indicating that you know, things are pretty negative and including the previous revisions that happen and those revisions happen normal all the time.
They're a normal part of the process because you make the best decision you can with the data you have as more Comes in, you make the better decision.
I, I don't know that people are getting it wrong.
I still think that, you know, I'm not seeing any uptick, meaningful, you know, until 2026.
(30:00):
But again, my current role isn't to predict the rates.
But I'll say too my, our advisors, Jason Miller, I went after him because I've seen him slap, you know, or talk about, you know, this provider of data etc did it wrong.
This is why and going through details and I told him, you know, as a friend and as a business partner, I said please be my advisor because I don't want to ever be on that side of the conversation with you.
(30:22):
So for those details, I'll say if you guys aren't following Professor Jason Miller, you 100 should be.
He is, he is the data trucking expert in the room.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
I 100 agree with that.
I think Jason Miller is a phenomenal follow out there.
And you know, I, I also look at it as I, you know, you need to look at different viewpoints in the industry because I feel like at the end of the day, and I think this is what operators biggest threats are in their business is they only listen to the echo chamber.
(30:52):
They only listen to people who agree with them and say what they say out there.
And I do not think that makes you a solid operator.
You need to listen to dissenting viewpoints.
You need to listen to polar opposite viewpoints.
And it will either solidify your stance or it will make you see things through a different lens.
Because I mean, do I, I feel like I've been saying this for almost a year now.
(31:13):
I don't think anything's changing anytime soon in the freight market.
I do not at all.
There has to be an exist, an exodus of capacity to show any meaningful change out there.
Otherwise this is the way things are going to be for the foreseeable future.
I, I've been kind of saying 2026, but at this point, man, I have not seen any event or indicator out there that shows that anything's going to change in the next 12 months outside of a mass exodus of capacity.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Yeah, and some people were hanging out their hat on English language proficiency requirements, but it's not seeing that reduction.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I mean, and the, my biggest counter argument to that is the enforcement of it.
All right?
You're like, you are actually needing the Department of Transportation to enforce that on every single time out there.
All right?
And that is what I don't see.
You can follow the party line of the States out there that might do it.
But, you know, again, you guys, this is coming from somebody who actually books freight.
(32:13):
I have not come across that many providers out there where the driver is not overly qualified to haul that freight, you know, so it's like, I do not think that's going to be as big of a deal as people think.
Now, again, I could be wrong, but from what I'm seeing out there, I, I, I feel like the biggest thing is the overall enforcement of it.
(32:34):
And I just don't see it actually being rolled out to a point where that's going to make that but much of a meaningful change out there.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
So.
Well, hey, Sam, I appreciate your time, man.
I'm gonna have to get you back on as things continue to develop on your end.
How does anybody reach out to you, man, if they want to sign up, start becoming a part of this, man?
How do they reach out to you and find out more?
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn or you can go to just email us at info Chokai AI or just Google you'll cross me.
And I appreciate your time, Chris.
It's, you know, it's a pleasure.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Absolutely.
Sam, thank you so much for joining.
If you can't find Sam out there, you guys hit me up.
I will gladly put you guys in direct contact with them, but that's going to be it for today, ladies and gentlemen.
As always, if you got value in what you heard, subscribe to the show, you guys.
And if you're feeling really ambitious after this one, rank the show on itunes and Spotify.
Because if you see value, your network's going to see it as well.
I appreciate you guys.
I love you guys.
(33:29):
And we'll be talking to you.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Came back with a bank hey got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when the blame moving fast hey let them all cross if they hate then let them hate them Make a bigger ball.
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