Ryan Fugit - The Story Behind Combat Story - Combat Story

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I really want to know whatinspired you to start the podcast.
Yeah, I wanna get to thatin my second deployment.
I'm in this, this war zone and I'm justthinking to myself like, I'm like, I don't
know if people in America understand thatthis is what it's like when you're gone.
This often what it does to families,and I hadn't deployed many times

(00:22):
like you have, but I've beengone enough to appreciate it.
And this is 20 16, 20 17,where podcasts are picking up.
Mm-hmm.
And I was like, what am I gonna do ifI could sit down and talk to people
like this and share their stories sosomeone understood what it was like,
the actual pain that goes into it,not the movies, but like all this time

(00:43):
where you're alone and you're missingall these events and you're almost
dying and you're watching friends die.
That's what I want to do.
That's where the podcast came from.
Like, I have a very genuine curiosityas I interview people, but I have
tremendous respect for guys like youwho are on the ground, being in the
air, watching you guys do what you did.
I never had to go kick in a door.

(01:03):
I didn't have to get in the stack.
I didn't have to breach for days on end.
And so that it, it is coming from aplace of genuine curiosity and admiration
as we're doing these interviews.
Um, I mean, for me, I wanted tohelp people and I, I am positive
we have, and I hope that.
People hear those and it makes 'emstick around another day somehow.

(01:26):
I think there's so much is I don'tthink that people join the military
for a, a parking spot at Home Depot.
Right.
You know, like, I'm not, that's not why.
Yeah.
You know, men and women do that.
You know, I think that there isthis greater call to service.
There is a, a primacy that we as a societyshould put on, on serving one another.
I think that really coolhow you've done this.

(01:47):
Have you've established that.
Um, and, you know, I just, the impactthat you had with this is so crazy.
Welcome to Combat Story.
I'm AJ uti, a retired marine forcerecon scout, sniper, and marine gunner
with 21 years of service, multiplecombat tours, and a lifetime of
lessons learned in the arena itself.
On this show, I sit down withwarriors from every front line to

(02:09):
uncover what combat truly feelslike and how it shapes the way we
see life each other and ourselves.
This is Combat Story.
I wanna start this, this interviewoff with thanking you, um, for really
everything, uh, that you've done.
So you and I met, um, at a, a galawhere I was speaking up in Los Gatos.

(02:31):
Mm-hmm.
And it was the Los GatosVeterans Foundation.
Yep.
The Los Gauss Veterans Foundation.
And so I was asked to be a speakerthere, um, and, and got all, you know,
dolled up, had a little tuxedo on Right.
You know, had my little tie that, whichI had to tie my own tie on that, or
a text that is really not a click on.
Not easy, not easy.
Had to YouTube that one.
And so we, you know, I give mykind of speech, you know, I go

(02:54):
in time to talk to the audience.
I actually feel that I didn't do avery good job on just blown smoke.
Literally, everyone wasin tears, literally.
I really appreciate that.
Not me, but, you know, and so, uh, youand Val, uh, came up to me afterwards.
Um.
You are a very different demographicthan a lot of veterans organizations

(03:16):
that I, I have seen generallythe veterans organizations are a
little bit longer in the tooth.
Uh, a little grayer in the hair.
More experienced, you havemore experience, right?
Yeah.
Um, and so having a couple walk up toSarah and I at the end of that event, and,
um, you, one, you guys had done part ofthe silent auction and purchased a plain

(03:37):
air pastel or plain air oil, uh, or, uh,a paint or a painting, uh, of which I
noticed because my mother was an artist.
So I was fascinated by that.
And you came up to me and you, um,you asked me if I, you know, hey,
I run a podcast, I run the show.
I would love to have you on it.
And, and you said your storywas really impactful and I was
really appreciative of that.

(03:58):
'cause I felt terrible.
I felt miserable because when I,sometimes when I go and I give that
story and I talk about that, I want todo as much justice to that as possible.
And I totally felt I just didn'tdo it, uh, enough justice.
And then you came up and said,man, I'm really inspired by this.
I wanna bring you on.
Can I interrupt real quick, please?

(04:18):
Um, I mean, this is in the.
Shameless plug, but like, thisis in, in your book, dark Horse.
Right?
But the way that you delivered thisstory, so this is a veteran annual gala.
Like the one thing, a big eventfor this veteran foundation.
You're the guest speaker.
This is like prime time for that night.

(04:40):
You deliver this, um, story aboutlosing your best friend in combat.
And it's all framedaround the flip of a coin.
And like even the storytelling wasso nicely done and well thought out.
And for all the men and women inthe crowd, everyone was drawn to it

(05:00):
because of the way you told the story.
I think that was very easy for me to see,like how natural you were at storytelling.
And then that happened onthe podcast, obviously.
Anyway, I just wanted to, like, thatstory is in the book, but that hit me hard
and it was all about the flip of a coin.
I think that the idea behind that storyand the flip of the coin and why I've

(05:21):
remembered it and why I've continuedto tell that was, you know, yeah,
there's some survivor's guilt, right?
Is the idea that something as as,as, um, as easy as a 50 50 chance
as to why Matt got the missionand I didn't get the mission.
Um, it, it, it, it shows me, I thinkthe fragility, uh, of it all sometimes
how my life is ch is, is a, a seriesof different chances that we all take.

(05:46):
And then I remember sitting in theinterview with you at your home,
um, and I was exhausted at the time.
We came over late, overlate, later in the evening.
And I remember going through that processwith you and you were so welcoming.
And so what I found about you as ainterviewer was you were genuinely
curious, uh, about the story itself.
And you wanted to know more aboutnot just the story, but what made

(06:08):
me tick, why it impacted me, howI wanted to shape the rest of my
life because of, of this incident.
Mm-hmm.
And so fast forward, so startingwith the end is this took me, you
were the one who sat me at the coffeeshop and said, dude, I never do this.
You need to write a book.

(06:28):
And I, no, I don't want to do this.
This is, I appreciate that, but youknow, I, this is, this is where I'm at.
I've been interested in theidea, but I've never really
wanted to take it to fruition.
And you are the person that lined upall of the characters needed in order
to, um, facilitate and really empowerme to, to tell my story on paper.
And now we are, uh, full circle.

(06:51):
We are sitting where the book is currentlyat DOD review, uh, and going through the,
the right process to be able to publishsomething in a sensitive environment.
And then you gave me a call.
Uh, I remember I was in Japan.
I was following Sarah around for work.
And so I was in Japan and I got thisemail from you and you said, Hey, I got

(07:12):
some stuff I wanna talk to you about.
And then you sent methis really long email.
And in your most you do the same thingI do is you wrote, uh, in this email, I,
you know, you were almost very nervous,it seemed like, in the email to ask.
And you said, Hey, I've been, you know,ruminating over this for a long time.
Right.
And I would like to know yourthoughts on potentially taking

(07:34):
over as the host of the podcast.
And then you immediately apologizedfor asking me in the email, right?
Yeah.
And it was very much the sameway that like, I'm sorry, you can
tell me to go kick rocks, right.
If I need to.
And, and then, and thenyou went through this.
And I had never ever thought ofthat before in my entire life.
And so I want to know.
Before I take this thing and continueto run with it and try to do as

(07:58):
good of a job as you have donewith this, I have so many questions
as to what led you to this point.
Um, for me, I want to knowabout your background.
I wanna know what led you into service,um, and, and where you were at.
So I think the, the, the inflectionpoint for a lot of us was nine 11.
Was nine 11 the same inflection pointfor you as it was for other service

(08:19):
members, or had you already identifiedthat you were going to join the military?
Yeah, I had already identified that.
So nine 11 happened when I was asenior in college in DC so, you
know, a little closer to homebecause of the Pentagon getting hit.
Sure.
Um, but I was already in ROTC forthree and a half years at that time.
Okay, cool.
Um, so my old man, as many peoplelistening who have heard me talk about

(08:43):
him and he's been on the show and actuallythat was a really special interview.
Um, you know, he flew Hueys in Vietnamand then he spent decades in the
foreign service as a political officer.
But, you know, I just grew up knowingI was going into the military.
That was the expectation.
It was gonna pay for school, goodopportunity and a lot of adventure

(09:04):
and fun like most young, youngmen I think are looking for.
So I was already committed,but I will say things changed
after nine 11 because on campus.
Going to ROTC pt and like we'dhave military science classes.
It was somewhat laughable, I wouldsay, like a little bit of a joke

(09:24):
as people saw us walking around.
I think after nine 11 and after likethese Green Berets on horseback and
the fire power and all of these thingshappening, things really seemed to
change and there was a lot of respect.
And I don't take it for grantedafter hearing what my dad and his
generation went through comingback from Vietnam, which is a
very different story, obviously.

(09:46):
So anyway, for me it was nine 11 wasmore of a, you know, further stoking
this interest that I had, did everything.
The way that, if I look back to thattimeframe, I, I was only 17, uh, 16 when
nine 11 happened and 17 when I startedto, you know, the process to join.
It just felt the, the worldfelt somehow different.

(10:09):
America felt somehow different.
Like we knew it was like, almost likewe were, I I, I would always, uh,
associate as like, we were like crouchingbefore a jump, you know, before like
we knew that we were getting mm-hmm.
We were loading before wekind of leapt into something.
We didn't know what something was,but there was this almost like
sense of urgency or sense of duty.
Did you, did that change in you when youwere like, Hey, senior in college Right.

(10:30):
You know, cruising through Yeah.
ROTC, it, yeah, it was, therewere a couple things that
happened right after nine 11.
So I, I played, I, I say this loosely.
I played football at Georgetown,which, um, like I hardly got on the
field, but I was part of the team.
Right, right.
And we had, I think we had to postponeour next game after nine 11 and we
played it the following week becauseit was playing a school in Jersey City.

(10:54):
Oh wow.
So like right up in where Ground zero,you know, very close to ground zero.
Um, and a lot of the guys on our teamwere from New Jersey and New York, and.
You know, the, the firedepartment hats, the NYPD hats
that would come out after that.
But going up to New York shortlythereafter was a big deal watching
the smoke come off the Pentagon.

(11:15):
Huge deal for me.
Like I rode my little moped close enoughto see it, but then they were kind of
stopping people from getting too close.
And then in December of that year, MikeSpan, who was a former Marine, and then,
uh, CI, a paramilitary officer, waskilled in Afghanistan, widely regarded
as the first death in the campaign.

(11:35):
And they had his funeralin Arlington Oh, wow.
At the time.
So I saw in the Washington Post that, andI would read this voraciously every day
to see what was going on with the fight.
And they announced anybodycould come to the funeral.
So I went and it was amazing.
I mean, it was freezing cold like noleaves on the trees in, in Arlington,

(11:59):
you know, Northern Virginia, all thesepeople out there, you see his wife.
Um, a lot of people cloak anddagger 'cause of the CIA side
and a lot of former military.
Sure, of course.
Um, and I remember asking a, a guystanding next to me, you know, this.
Everybody in the military knows this.
This is when I learned it.

(12:19):
You don't call somebody anex-Marine, it's no such thing.
And he's like, no, he is a former Marine.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, um, we are a proud bunch.
Yeah.
And, and it wasn't antagonistic at all.
It was just like teachingthis young guy something.
But those moments really stuck with me.
Um, post nine 11.
So the crouching moment you talk about,like, I could feel that, but oh my gosh.

(12:42):
The hesitation for me oflike having watched the Gulf
War and then Bosnia mm-hmm.
And the fear of not getting intothis fight and what that would
mean for an officer's career in themilitary scared the hell outta me.
So I really wanted to get into the fightand I had already selected aviation,
which has a very long pipeline.

(13:02):
Right.
And you potentially, I could be in thispipeline longer than the war lasts.
Right.
That is everybody's fear at the time.
And mine in particular with aviation,it is one of the most hard to explain,
um, phenomenon to people who aresaying, well, do you enjoy what you do?

(13:23):
Um, I don't know.
Yes.
But I also like you, but so youwillingly want to go to fight?
Yes.
It's what I felt called to do.
It's what we all felt called to do andI would feel terrible if I missed it.
Yep.
And it's weird 'cause we know we'restepping into potential carnage.
We're, we know we're steppinginto, you know, loss of life and
we're gonna be changed forever.
But there is no way that I'mgoing to allow this to happen

(13:48):
and not be a part of it.
Yes.
It's like this weird calling.
I, I couldn't, I couldn't describeit and some people I don't
think have that and that's okay.
That's interesting 'cause doingthis show, and I'm sure you're gonna
get many more of these questions asyou do this, but I'm sure you get a
lot already given your background.
But people who will ask you like,Hey, I'm thinking of getting into
the military, should I or not?

(14:08):
And there's all differentkinds of answers you give them.
Sure.
But I do think that's one of 'em, like,if you feel like you have to get in and
do this, that's a pretty good indication.
Yeah.
If it's not like very passionate,I will do almost anything to
get in there to that fight.
Maybe it's, you know, it can be right.

(14:28):
Might not be.
But that is something that Ithink is true for many of us.
The military's, like the Marines had afamous saying for a long time, I think
it was seventies and eighties, it waslike, we didn't promise you a rose garden.
And it's, and it's, and it was like thistough guy campaign, which I actually
think was a very successful campaign.
However, you're right.
If you're not going to, like,that's what I do is when I talk

(14:48):
to young men or young women whowanna be able to join the service.
That's great.
And I think it's phenomenalthat you sh you should have the
apprehension, you should have thefear, the potential desire to do so.
But if you're not going to dedicateevery fiber of your being into
this and to the service, and tothe service of others, and to the
profession of your craft, don't do it.

(15:08):
No.
Uh, because it's not goingto be a good experience for
you, uh, you know, regardless.
No.
Okay.
So nine 11 happens.
Did you get a chance to go to New YorkCity at all during this timeframe?
Yeah, I mean, we went, we wentright up to play this game.
Like we were on a bus, um,with the football team from
DC going to through New York.

(15:29):
And I, I just distinctlyremember that now.
I didn't walk around ground zero oranything, but just you, you know, you
could just feel it in the air thatthe national Anthem was electric.
Um, all these, like, you know, it'sa team of 70 guys, at least 30, 35
of 'em grew up in and around Oh yeah.

(15:49):
Jersey and New York City.
So it was personal, soit was really personal.
Yeah.
Uh, one of the former members of ourfootball team was in, so he had graduated
in 92 and he died in the towers.
So they've got, his number is,you know, given out every year
or two, a standout player.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
It's a, a new tradition thatthey've had and several guys, this

(16:10):
is, this was interesting to me.
Um.
Uh, I was the only one in ROTC at the timeof 70 guys, but of my graduating class
in the class, maybe one ahead and twobehind me, probably seven or eight guys
went into the military who, if it weren'tfor nine 11, probably one and a half.
Interesting.
That would be my guess.

(16:31):
Um, you know, a couple of 'em arestill serving, but I, I think that it
completely changed so many people's lives.
Not a lot of people go to Georgetownto then go into the military.
Okay.
What's a normal pathway within Georgetown?
Is it Poli sci?
Oh, totally.
State Department, USG Agency.
Um, UN anywhere you can goabroad and not make a lot of

(16:52):
money except for the military.
So our ROTC class, we had nine peoplegraduate, um, which is fairly small right.
For, it's a, not a huge school,but that's fairly small.
Okay.
So you mentioned, uh, aviation.
Did you have an aviation contract,uh, when you were in ROTC?
I don't know how the Armyworks as far as that goes.

(17:12):
I also didn't go to the OCS and ROTCprogram, so without boring people,
the, it's very, it's just a competitiveprocess like anywhere in the military
as you're going through ROTC and atthe end they rank order everybody in
the country, and if you're in the top10%, you get whatever branch you want.
If you're in the bottom 10%, they'regonna assign you to good branches.

(17:36):
So that.
Good branches, get peoplewho aren't as great.
I have so many jokes before right now.
Gosh, that's that.
I, I'm, I'm being good.
This is the Army Marine jokes.
Alright.
And then in between, it's kindof like needs of the army.
So I, I really wanted to have mychoice of, of where I could go.
And in the end, I still rememberthe night before it was like, am

(17:57):
I gonna go aviation or infantry?
And I, I would've regretted it either way.
Like my old man had flown,I have a brother who flew.
Um, but a lot of what I grew upwatching and the books I read
the Dick Marcenko books mm-hmm.
And Tom Clancy and everything.
It's like, it's infantry guys.
So in the end, I, I chose aviation.

(18:18):
And again, you know, had I gone infantry,I'm sure I would've regretted not being
able to talk to my old man in this way.
Like, we both went throughvery similar experiences.
Really?
Oh, it's super similar.
Just different technology.
Um, so like he and I arecloser, I think because of that.
But at the same time, and you brought upthe curiosity that I have on the podcast,
which I appreciate that it comes through.

(18:39):
Like I have a very genuinecuriosity as I interview people.
And I haven't interviewed a lot of Apachepilots because I, I have done that.
Um.
I have tremendous respect for guyslike you who are on the ground.
And I never had to do that.
I never had to go kick in a door.
I didn't have to get in the stack.
I didn't have to breach, I didn't haveto sit out in the middle of nowhere

(18:59):
for days on end and not shower.
Like maybe I went two dayswithout shower in down range.
Uh, this interview was over.
Uh, I mean, serious school for mewas like, wow, we really stink.
You know?
Um, but I, I have tremendousadmiration being in the air,
watching you guys do what you did.

(19:20):
And never having done that, so thatit, it is coming from a place of
genuine curiosity and admirationas we're doing these interviews.
So, and to, to not get super, you know,you know, self-congratulatory, you
know, or, you know, fawning over you.
There is nothing thatcompares to the feeling.

(19:40):
Um, and I can't speak foreveryone, but I can speak for me.
Just a quick word from oursponsor, veterans help group.
We'll get right back to this episode.
Some of you may be struggling with thingstoday that weren't there before you
deployed, or maybe you're noticing this ina loved one, a spouse, a son, a daughter
who went down range and came back.
A little different trouble sleeping,dealing with pain, stress, mental health
issues, and maybe a whole lot more.

(20:01):
The question is, what areyou gonna do about it?
Let me tell you, you signed that contract.
You served your country, you earnedyour benefits, and that's why I want
you to do yourself a favor and call myfriends at the Veterans Help Group today.
They're here to helpyou get your benefits.
I've navigated the VA system to getmy own benefits, and it can be hard
at times, and the Veterans Helpgroup makes it that much easier.

(20:22):
The veterans help group knows the VAbecause VA disability is all they do.
Whether you've been denied orappealing or filing for the
first time, it doesn't matter.
These guys know how to get you approvedfor 100% of the benefits you deserve.
They've done it for thousands of vets justlike you and your loved ones who served.
Go to veterans help group.comor call veterans help group at

(20:43):
eight five five two three one.
6 1 4 4. And tell them your buddy Ryanand AJ from Combat Story sent you.
That's Veterans help group.com.
Veterans Help Group does not guaranteeoutcomes and past performance
does not guarantee future results.
The company is neither a law firmnor affiliated with any part of
the US government, including theva. And now back to this episode.

(21:04):
When we're on the ground and we'rein a hairy situation and I hear the
of some sort of rotor coming in Yeah.
That we're gonna be okay.
Like that for us does somuch to us because oftentimes
video games don't cover it.
Like, we can't see bad guys don't standout in the middle and like wait for you

(21:27):
to target them like they don't want todie just as much as I don't want to die.
And they work very hard to remainhidden and clandestine until the moment.
And so oftentimes we can't see thesepeople, uh, you know, it's Bush's or
things lighting up or they're maneuvering.
They're a smart enemy.
And so when we had pilots come on andwe could hear the wmp w of the rotors,

(21:49):
specifically rotors, because you guyscan loiter on station and then you guys
add this dimension to the battlefieldthat when I worked with Apaches, or when
we worked with Cobras or Hueys, theyhad this ability to almost hunt with us.
And sometimes I would almost make itakin to, you know, uh, like foxes, like
when we were on like a big hunt andwe're hunting whatever game it is, and

(22:12):
then the foxes or the dogs would goout and, and bring the fox out, right?
You know, and kind of flush them.
For us, that was huge for us becauseit was this, uh, almost like to make
a football reference, uh, that mylittle ass was too, uh, too small
to make like a linebacker you guyswould, or a, or a free safety, right?
Is you guys would plugholes in the defense, right?

(22:34):
Or you guys would think at a, atthe game at a different level.
Because now I realize hindsight is, it wasby design is I'm looking right here in the
front and then you guys are able to be,you know, literal angels on our shoulders.
Uh, so thank you again for, for that.
I just really, to any pilot outthere, uh, you, there is never a,

(22:55):
um, a draw or a comparison, you know?
Yeah.
We give you guys, you know, crap.
'cause you guys can eat ice cream atthe end of every day and there's always
gonna be that, but it's, it's comesfrom a place of, you know, jealousy and
love rather than absolute animosity.
Yeah.
No, I appreciate that.
And I do feel.
Especially having done this podcast andinterviewing 200 vets, like everybody's

(23:17):
got one of those stories about, like thisone time when I was in this situation
and all of a sudden there was air cover.
Yep.
And this is what it was like.
Um, and I also felt there wasn't, um,and I don't know if what this is like for
guys who have done this on the ground,like there was no real, uh, competition of
machismo between me and a ground pounder.
Like maybe, I don't know if, ifa seal meets a recon guy, it's

(23:39):
like, yeah, were you really tough?
Yeah.
Like for me it's, I didn't do that.
And then they'll look back and be like,there it was just mutual admiration.
So I feel like I had that, buttruly I'd never had to do the, those
really hard things of going in and,and looking that closely at the
guy that we're about to take out.
Um, fast forwarding slightly, wedo these career course, you know,

(24:03):
advanced courses through the, ourcareer progression most of the time.
Like I, I learn aviation basics at theaviation basic course, and then I'm
supposed to go to the aviation officeror whatever, it's the captain's course.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you could go to different branches.
Uh, for training for your advanced course.
And so I chose to go tothe Infantry and Maneuver.
They called it the Maneuver Captain'sCareer course and Triple C Yep.

(24:25):
At Benning.
Mm-hmm.
So there were probably two aviatorsin this class of a hundred plus
and Marines, which was cool.
So it's an Army class, but you know,there were some Marines we need to
bring the physical standards up.
They brought Marine Marines andliterally the number one grad was a
Marine, which I was like, come on guys.
Um, but I went there so that Icould understand how you guys think

(24:46):
on the ground, truly just how doyou move through, how do you get
ready to cordon off a target?
Um, all the logistics that go into it.
And it was so helpful when we were downrange for me to just understand that
beyond knowing the guy there, which acouple times I was supporting some guy
who was in my class, which was great.
But just how you guys didthings was so, so helpful.

(25:09):
I think from my perspective when dealingwith aviation assets, it was, um, it was
really, it was really nice to know that.
When I was working with a pilottrying to solve a problem, whatever
that problem was, that it felt likea lot of the pilots wanted to help
you get that missile off the rail.

(25:30):
Yeah.
It wasn't like a lot of like, well,we're gonna be risk adverse and
make, and, you know, we don't, itwas like, and we'll take any excuse
to get that thing off the rail.
Correct.
Especially, I think as the war progressed,we got a lot smarter in how we did it
later on, but it was very much like,I remember pilots forgive the term, I
don't know a better one, but almost likethey used to pimp us for information.

(25:51):
Hey dude, you need to tell me this.
Give me, and 'cause stuff's going haywire.
Right.
You know, um, and I'm tryingto figure out which way is up.
Right.
And you're over.
You've got space and time,which I think is good.
Yep.
And you're loitering at a, forgiveme, is a IP or BP battle position?
An ip, yeah.
Our kind of one of the pointsas we're coming in, but we, we

(26:13):
often wouldn't even use that.
Okay.
Yeah.
So when we're doing a, we're veryrudimentary, like we'll have them,
you know, Hey, they're off our rightshoulder here waiting for snakes
to bite, is what we used to say.
Yeah.
Because we have cobras.
Yep.
And so our term was, Hey, we'rewaiting on snakes to bite.
That was always like, eh, likea super cool thing for us.
That is cool.
Say um, you know, uh, okay.
So.
Absolutely fascinating.
So you go through, uh, you've gonethrough your aviation program.

(26:37):
How does the selection happen whenyou're getting your individual platform
that is also super competitive?
So, aviation, infantry, armor, typicallyvery competitive branches to get.
So once you get in them, you've gota lot of heavy hitters in there.
And, and there's nospecial ops track, right?
So it's like everybody'shere first before they can go

(26:58):
special forces later or ranger.
So within aviation, you all go throughthe, the basic aviation courses
where you just learn literally how tohover, how to fly, how to navigate,
how to go up into the clouds, whichis pretty scary, um, and not die.
You go through all that and then atthe end of that eight, nine months,

(27:21):
there's a ceremony where 30 guysare in a class, 30 guys and gals are
in a class and they basically on aboard, they just put up, hey, the
army has these 30 airframe available.
So it'll, at least back then, and it'sprobably very similar now, it's like
two Apaches, one or two kis, a ton ofblack hawks and a handful of Chinooks.

(27:43):
Mm-hmm.
And then one maybe like, uh.
Fixed wing VIP platform.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Um, and so they just say, numberone in the class, what do you want?
Number two, what do you want?
And they just take it off the board.
So it's very, these are people you'vebeen with now for like eight or nine
months, sweat through things with, and,and it's just competitive at the end.

(28:04):
And you have an idea of like,oh, I know Nick over there.
He wants to go Blackhawks.
All right.
Those guys, they want dogs.
Are you like competing in your mind?
You're like, okay, oh, you're allcompeting through this because you're
like, I want whatever that thing is.
And you're like, like, okay, wellthis guy messed up that thing, so
he's probably outta the running.
Right.
You know, so you're allcompet, which jockey?
I don't know if that's good or not.
Like, but we're, you know, still verygood friends with all these guys.

(28:28):
And then at the end it's like,all right, what do you want?
So for us, Apaches went oneand two right off the board.
And then it was a Kiowa, solike guns recon, and then it was
Blackhawks and Chinooks throughout.
Like some people want to doChinooks, like heavy lift.
Mm-hmm.
Other guys wanna do black hawks.
It sets them up nicely for one60th on the special ops side.

(28:48):
Um.
So I, I was like, I try, I tryreally hard in that course and
got one of the top two picks.
So I was very fortunate.
I feel like a shithead every timeI tell this story, but it it, like,
it, it was important to me if Iwasn't going to infantry that I
was as close as humanly possible tosupporting guys who were on the ground.
Put yeah, put, put everything into it.
Okay.
So then you, you kindof glazed over it there.

(29:10):
I did, yeah.
We're gonna keep glazing.
So did you take number, I'mgonna ask you to point blank.
Did you take number one outta the class?
I did.
And I'm gonna have Juan edit this out.
Um, no, it was funny 'cause I had twoof my friends come up, uh, from two of
my friends from high school came to ourgraduation and then they announced it.
They're like, Hey, our number one gradis gonna speak Ryan Fut come up here.

(29:32):
And they were like, whatthe, how'd he get that?
So it, it was cool there, but there,you know, I, I had no animosity
with any of the other guys and soa couple of 'em now are, uh, full,
full bird colonel brigade commanders.
No way.
So it's pretty cool to see themhaving moved through the ranks.
Random question.
Do you have any, uh, like opportunityto meet up with these guys that you

(29:53):
were in flight school with that you cankinda like come and see their squadron
and like hang out at their squadronkind of thing and be like, oh wow.
You know, man, this issuch a good question.
Like, this is, uh, just to admitthis openly, I have so much
imposter syndrome and so muchguilt for having left the military.
What, um, so.
All these guys, like ifthey called me right now and

(30:15):
they're like, Ryan, I need you.
I would be there in a heartbeat.
But I feel like I left themwhen I left the military and
they, they're 20 years in.
Sure.
You know?
Sure.
Like they did multiple deployments.
I did one in the Army.
Um, so I feel like Idon't have the, uh, right.
To be in the same room as them, letalone like go see their squadron.

(30:36):
And I know that is irrational,completely irrational.
I don't think they would feelthat way, but humans aren't
necessarily rational beings.
Right.
And there are, there are probablythree guys who I've not interviewed
who were in my unit when I was downrange, who I would kill to interview.
And I hope I do one day, but I don'tknow if I can even ask them to do it.
Wow.
Okay.
I, for being an opposite side of it, um,I think, like the first thing I wanna say

(31:02):
to that is you're, you're absolutely high.
Uh, that is not, I, I know that is not,I know as I say it out loud, anybody who
understands this, this world knows thatyou didn't, you didn't take a knee, you
didn't, you didn't drop out a formation.
You did your time, you didyour service, you did it
honorably, and then you moved on.
Yeah.
And then again, like you movedon to the clandestine services.

(31:24):
I did, but not right away.
I had a slight break there.
Yeah, sure.
At the, you still were, were working,you know, towards, I, I don't.
I struggle to, well, I actually havea lot of conversations with veterans
who didn't get to combat, um, yeah.
Who, uh, or who got to combat,but were in support roles.
We, my own personal challenge that Iface with this is that we have a lot

(31:49):
of this, um, societal pressure that wefocus a lot of times only on the 20 year
special operations guy or gal. They,and they should be Absolutely, you know,
held up and, and respected and revered.
Uh, but I don't want to do that atthe point of where we're, where we're

(32:09):
discrediting the service of other people.
People.
Totally.
Yep.
One of the things that I learned,now, again, I was a cocky, you
know, 20-year-old sniper at onepoint who thought that he was, you
know, God's gift to the infantry.
Um, right.
So I I, anyone that had to dealwith me at the time, I, for, you
know, please forgive me, I've grown.
Um, but I realize now in hindsightthat, and through a lot of

(32:29):
mentorship was that we are merelya, a portion of the equation.
There's so many people to it.
Totally.
Yes.
So I have never in my timelooked at you and everyone
like jumped did one deployment.
Like I've never No, I know.
And I don't think anybody would.
And that's like, it's almost like it's,I suffer from the same imposter syndrome.
Yep.
And again, I, I tell you as takingover this podcast, uh, you know, as

(32:52):
the host of this thing, we're co-hosthowever we want to, you know, deli.
Yes.
Thank you.
Uh, as we wanna delineate.
You've mentioned people that you'relike, Hey, I wanna get you in the
room and interview this person.
I'm like, uh, do you wanna bring someonethat's better, uh, more qualified?
Right.
You know, like, I feel the same stuff.
Right.
You like, I actually thinkthat's kind of a good trait.
I think that you, what I, and I, andI know that I'm talking a lot on this,

(33:16):
on this subject and kind of makingyou uncomfortable with it, but that's,
to me, I want to really nail down onthe fact that it, you should be proud
that you took honor grad from thatcourse, or the number one graduate.
I know.
I know.
However, I completely, completelyunderstand the stigma because we
all saw the guy that would check inand be like, I'm gonna, you know,

(33:37):
like, I'm gonna be number one here.
And you're like, whatever.
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
And so we don't want to be thatguy at the same, at the same point.
It's so hard because again, like that's,so first of all, you got selected
for ROTC, which is not easy to do.
Then you got, so that's not that hard.
Yeah.
Then you got selected to go aviation,which is not that easy to do.

(33:58):
And then in aviation, you gotselected to do one of the two seats
for the platform of the age 64.
Mm-hmm.
Do they still call it the long bow?
So I went into the Alpha model, which isslightly older, and then right as soon
as I finished that, they sent me to theDelta model, which is the long boat.
Okay, perfect.
Alright, so then they put you in the,like you, the, the, the rare air that

(34:20):
you were breathing because of yourwork ethic, because of your dedication.
Like again, I'm, I think when I lookat this is I'm, I'm sure, and I would
love to explore, was there a lot of,did your father put any pressure on you
or was what like, like actual pressure?
Like, hey, you know, you gotta dothis, or you're out of the family,

(34:41):
or is it like that you wanted tolive up to your father's legacy?
Was there self-imposed pressure?
Yeah.
Do you have, you know, any, were thereany physical conversations that happened?
I should disclose?
So if Val were here, my wife,she would say a hundred percent.
Ryan was doing this to make his dad happy.
I, I really don't think that's the case.

(35:02):
And my dad's story and mineare very, very similar.
Even like until six years ago.
So like, he played football atUniversity of Vermont on a scholarship,
did ROTC, went to Vietnam, flewHueys in combat as a platoon leader.
Um, got out career in the foreign service.
I grew up, went to Georgetown, playedfootball, ROTC, um, flew helicopters,

(35:27):
went down range as a companycommander, so slightly different.
And then went into theCCIA A, which is like my.
Very similar.
Yeah, very similar.
I embassies abroad.
Um, so there is a, I can't discountthat that's the case and I don't
know how just growing up likethat influences those things.
Sure.

(35:47):
But when I was little and we were livingin Africa, that's one of our assignments
in Zimbabwe, and I had a ton of timeto myself as you did in the eighties.
And it's just like, getthe hell outta the house.
You're like, all right, let me go.
I wasn't doing other stuff.
I was like dressing upin camo and Oh yeah.
Pretending to attack something.

(36:08):
And the toys I played with weregi jokes a hundred percent.
And during the golf war, I gotthese baseball cards that were
like, different airframes.
Oh yeah.
And seals and marines andlike these different units, NN
none of that was handed to me.
That was just something in the cultureI grew up in that was like that.
I would ask my dad occasionally like,Hey, tell me, tell me about Vietnam.

(36:28):
Like, tell me a story.
And he had some good ones and it wasnever told to me with this like era of
embellishment, he is incredibly rational.
Very rational.
No, uh, not a ton of emotion in there.
So it was just like, this iswhat it was like, matter of fact.
So I, I guess I can'tanswer it psychologically.

(36:49):
There's probably somethingthere making my dad happy.
But there was no like,you need to go do this.
I mean, there was a little bitof if I want to go to school,
this is gonna pay for it.
Sure.
So there was that, but it wasall pre nine 11, like we didn't
know we were going to war.
It could have been four years and out.
I want to dig back onsomething a little lighter.
So you mentioned GI Joes and, and mm-hmm.

(37:09):
Pop culture.
Favorite movie that you thinkpushed you into this service or,
and then your favorite GI Joe.
The two things that pop into yourmind, man, probably snake eyes.
That is the Exactly.
Okay.
The question should have been,what is your favorite GI Joe
and why is it snake eyes?
And I will, so the movie is Top Gun,which has influenced many people and,

(37:32):
and truthfully, I think there's somethingabout the podcast one day we should come
back to on the, there's something aboutpop culture that just influences people.
Like how many people have goneinto the military that I've
interviewed that it's 'cause of abook that read or a movie they saw.
We do a great job of that Right.
In America.
Um, but I, I have to say with GI Joe,like they came out with a movie in, I

(37:56):
think it was oh five and oh six, ChanningTatum, who I went to middle school.
Oh, that's right.
I forgot about that.
Was the lead actor was Duke, wasn't he?
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which killed me because we wereliterally both played football together.
He goes off to be a stripper.
I'm very successful and I love him.

(38:17):
I like, he is such a nice guy.
I am so glad.
But truly like this thing I grewup with, which I was like always
gonna go into the military.
He is Duke.
And he gets to do it.
And the dude who gave me the, the CW fourlater Chief Warrant Officer or uh, CW
five Thompson gave me my check ride inGermany is in that movie in an Apache.

(38:40):
And I saw him and I was like, ohmy God, that has to be Thompson.
And I stayed around for the, uh, thecredits and sure enough, it's this guy.
Like, how, how did this happen whereChan is the, the lead in this movie?
And I like grew up worshipingthis, this toy Anyway.
Did it?
Yeah.
Did it almost like pop a bubble foryou because, or was it I like know.

(39:02):
Gosh.
So are you, do you, are you still incontact with No, I'm not with Mr. Tatum.
No, I'm not at this pointnot, but I would love to be.
Okay.
Uh, Mr. Channing Tatum,if you're out there.
Yeah.
Uh, we would love to do a fullcircle interview with you on what
Ryan was like in high school.
Audience wants to know.
Ryan does not want the audience to know.
So edit radio silence is okay.

(39:23):
Yeah.
That's fantastic.
Okay.
So now, uh, you know, humilityaside, you've been just,
you know, just crushing it.
Um, and then you, you graduate you,so do you guys have a wing ceremony
and then a platform ceremony?
Is that different?
No, the, the ceremony's, eventhe, the ceremony of selecting the
aircraft, I wouldn't even call it aceremony, it's just, and I said that

(39:43):
earlier, but it's like we sit downin a room, they put the things on
the board, you pick and you leave.
How nervous were you?
Super nervous because you're like, thisis the rest of my life, super nervous.
The same thing at the agency.
When you get your first assignment at thefarm, it's like they hand you an envelope,
you open it up, and this is gonnadictate literally the rest of your life.
Oh my gosh.
And, and you see people in theaudience, you're like, oh, oh, shit.

(40:05):
Or like, yes, I got this thing.
It's weird being in those momentswhere, you know, like, this is a moment
that will affect the rest of my life.
The trajectory, the rest of my life willbe defined by what happens at this space.
It's, it's almost like thesecinematic moments that you feel
like you're like sitting in.
You're like, I, most of the time Iwas sweating bullets through all these
things, like, they're gonna kick me out.
I'm failing through this thing.
Totally.
And then, you know, in your case.

(40:27):
I'm always interested to hear for thedifferent branches and paths people
have, like how do they do it in, youknow, recon or being selected for
a sniper or what ship you're gonna.
Command.
Yeah.
In, in the Navy, all these things.
Yeah.
I hope, you know, from my time in theservice, what I've found is that there
are a lot of points of meritocracy.

(40:47):
Like they're, and they'revery clear and cut.
The Marine Corps does something a littledifferent, um, to the way that we, and
I don't know if this is true for theArmy, but the way that the Marine Corps,
when they're selecting officers, they doit on a, uh, on a, on a third's system.
Because what they don't wantis they understand that.
I mean, any logistician out therewill always understand that, you

(41:07):
know, logistics wins wars, right?
That, that is, you know, Napoleon, right?
If you know in is Marchinto Russia, right?
Like huge, huge blunders that have,and so what we try to do is we
do what we call a quality spread.
And so we'll do, uh, the top, uh, topthird, middle third and bottom third,
and then they spread the MOS or themilitary occupational specialties.

(41:29):
So not.
Everybody gets to be infant.
You don't take your top third togo infantry if that's the thing.
And so they're able to take people across.
Now that does people then start to gamethe system like, okay, well I can't
get number one 'cause get one numberone's guaranteed where they want to go.
So then maybe I need to be 22.
Right.
You know?
And like, how do I get 22?
'cause that's the top of the second tier.

(41:50):
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Which still means infant.
So it does allow for a little bitof gamesmanship inside of it is
the way the Marine Corps does it.
Yeah.
Um, or they say they do it.
Um, but you know how that happens inside.
Interesting.
Really up to them.
Uh, there, it still is a human business.
I would recommend anybody that'slooking to join the service understands
that it is a meritocracy in a lotof ways, but it is a human business.

(42:12):
Yep.
Very much so.
And so true.
Who you are, how you act.
Um.
The idea is that the instructorsoftentimes, uh, are teaching
their own profession, and theyget the opportunity to select who
they would want to serve with.
So, uh, maybe don't be a jerk.
True.
You know, through your, you know, maybethat again, like you could be number one,

(42:32):
number two, and there's like, I'm notsaying people weight things or put their
finger on the scale, but if you're likea butthead through school and one of your
cadre, you guys say cadre in the army.
Yeah.
Incorrectly by the way.
Uh, we say cadre.
Hmm.
Um, and, and marines.
And it is, uh, you know, they'repicking who they have the
potential to serve alongside.
That's so true.
And so if you're just like boogereater who's like, just mean to

(42:53):
everybody, and you're like, he nothanks, he's smart, but he's toxic.
They, they can, theycan affect that a lot.
I've seen that.
You know, so true.
Just a quick word for myself beforewe dive back into this combat story.
Many of you know, are previousinterviews with AJ Chui, marine
sniper recon operator, and the manwho tracked, hunted and ultimately
eliminated Iraq's Deadliest Sniper Juba.

(43:16):
This was an enemy responsible fordeaths of over a hundred Americans,
some say, up to 140, many of whichwere filmed and posted online.
Aj, who was just a very humble,very young Marine at the time, took
that fateful shot, put an end toso much pain for so many families.
We never took credit for it.
And over the years that story's changedand been retold countless times.

(43:39):
I'm incredibly proud to let youknow that you can get your hands
on AJ's new book, dark Horse.
Harnessing HiddenPotential in War In Life.
A book I asked him to write afterI interviewed him immediately
after I interviewed him.
It's part memoir, part roadmap, a look atthe lessons AJ learned through combat and
throughout his career and how they canhelp all of us find strength and purpose.

(44:01):
If you enjoy Combat Story, you'regoing to love this book to get a copy,
head to combat story.com/darkhorse.
That's combat story.com/darkhorse.
It's packed with details and insights thatwe never got to cover in our interviews,
and I know you're going to love it.
Now, back to this combat story.

(44:22):
Okay, so first unitthat you went to after.
So all said and done.
Uh, what was the first unit?
Where was it at andwhat was that first day?
So what is the uniform called thatyou guys, when you check into your
unit, uh, board shorts and flipflops, is that what pilots do?
Or is that the army?
Because I know the Marines,we show up in service Alphas.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, truth be told, I don't think wehad a name for the uniform that we

(44:45):
wore, so that totally makes sense.
So I, I showed up at a unit inGermany that had just redeployed like
a week or two before I got there.
Very, so by redeployed you meangot back, just come back from Iraq.
So this was early, like probablyFebruary, March of oh four, and it
was a cab unit, which was very cool.
Which folks?

(45:07):
AJ called the Cav Stetson.
A cowboy hat.
It's called a cowboy hat.
That's what I, so, uh,I'm from California, man.
A cowboy hat.
Please let him know in thecomments how you feel about that.
If you're calve, um, one of thoselittle tassels you guys have for
That's, that's right, that's right.
And spurs.
Uh, so, but I really wanted to go toa cab unit 'cause pre nine 11, like
they're, you know, you didn't go to war.

(45:29):
Going to a cab unit was pretty cool.
Okay.
Like there's a lot of tradition there.
Um, it's fun.
They do this thing called aspur ride where you earn your
spurs if you're not in combat.
That's how you get your spurs.
If you go to combat, that'show you get your spurs.
But in an army where thatdidn't go to combat, are we
talking like physical spurs?
Yeah.
So like, you'd wear 'em on your boots.
No way.
Special occasions.

(45:49):
No way.
And your Stetson.
So I would be way tooirresponsible with that.
Oh my gosh.
So I mean, that, that is a ceremonyand it is fun and it gets crazy
and you're drinking beer outtayour Stetson to help form it.
And it's a lot of fun.
And I got to go through that in Germanyand that was a great experience.
With the exception, it was three yearsin the same unit and I did not deploy.

(46:09):
So the unit I was at had a really badbattle in Iraq on March 23rd, 2003.
So it was supposed to be this bigmoment for the long bow Apache.
It was a battalion, um, ex raid,basically a battalion uh, operation.
How many aircraft in the battalion?
So 24 aircraft.

(46:31):
Okay.
So all taking off at the same time.
That's a big logistic lift.
Logistically hard to do.
The maintenance hoursnot really done before.
Yeah.
They were gonna go and fly andstop somewhere, you know, shoot all
these missiles at the same time.
Intel wasn't right.
A couple guys, uh, uh, crashedon takeoff, some brownouts, a lot

(46:51):
of things they weren't used totraining in the US or Germany.
Oh.
And they ended up hovering over enemypositions, getting shot to hell.
Came back one of, yeah, just terribleopening round for the, for the long bow.
Yeah.
Three days into the invasion.
Super early.
So they stayed there throughout thedeployment, but that hung over their head.

(47:15):
So I remember like March 23rd, 2005,that anniversary was a very somber day.
So that unit did not redeploy.
It had to like get refit.
So they were like benched basically.
Yeah.
Um, so morale wasn't super low becauseof that and people rotated in and out.
But certainly that unit, it was six.

(47:35):
Six.
Cav had this reputation now.
Yeah.
It had a stigma, right?
Yeah.
Um, our sister unit, there were only twounits at our very small base in Germany.
Six.
Six CV and two six Cav, bothApache battalions or squadrons.
The two six Calv then went toAfghanistan and I desperately wanted

(47:56):
to go with them desperately did not go.
And so I spent three years in Germany,had a blast, got married, like, you
know, my wife, Val, who you know, cameover, traveled a ton, made great friends.
But all this time, but certainlylike 2004 to 2007, we were busy.
I am sitting here watching youguys, like you've gone into

(48:19):
Iraq, Fallujah happens, right?
Um, and then the Army's inRamadi at that timeframe, right?
Yeah, it's killing me.
W Pat Fagan who introduced us toWill, uh, who we interviewed, Pat's
gone down range two times by then.
He's in Germany with me, and sohe's in the army that deploys.
I'm in the army that sits.
So did, did you feel that yousuffered from that, this idea of

(48:40):
imposter syndrome before you went to,'cause like you're probably at young
and you're like, I'm ready to go.
Did this, does this one impostersyndrome started to set in?
Do you think you're seeing a lot ofpeople constantly go back and forth and
you're like, man, I'm sitting here on thesidelines ready to go, put me in coach.
Is that Yeah.
Is that a form?
I'm not trying to put No, no, no.
I, I don't think it is.
I, I see where I completely see that.

(49:01):
I don't think so.
I think probably that firstunit being there with everybody
else has a combat patch.
They've been fighting for a year.
I have nothing.
I'm the new lieutenantalready a bad moniker.
You know, like you're brandnew lieutenant un untested.
I think that taught me alot of humility and just.
Learning from these guys who aresuper experienced, these warrant

(49:24):
officers as you know well, um, who havebeen flying literally for 20 years.
I'm like 23, 24.
Um, they've been flyingalmost as long as I'm alive.
They technically, I outrankthem, but like, let me,
you're never gonna pull that.
I'm never gonna pull that.
And, and I, I wouldn't have, maybe thatwas part of my dad teaching me that.
Sure.
I think I, I appreciated.

(49:46):
Just learning what I can, thatimposter syndrome came probably
after I got out of the military.
Okay.
And I just felt terrible because of it.
Okay.
Okay.
So now, now 2006, you're at six.
Six.
Cav.
Six.
Six Cav.
And that's in Germany.
Yep.
And so when do you, when do youfirst deploy to Afghanistan?

(50:07):
Yeah.
Is that, so I go to that Armycourt, the infantry course.
NC.
Yep.
So we go through there andthen, and importantly, we have
our first kid at the time.
Yeah.
And then Owen, who's in theother room, I happen to like him.
Yes.
Um, we have him.
And then I, and I, I think that'simportant 'cause I, I don't know what it's
like to deploy without a kid, but havingtalked to vets, it's a big difference.

(50:30):
Mm-hmm.
It's a very different story when, whenthere's nobody else waiting for you.
On the way back, I, I had membersof my team who, um, were in Iraq
and when they had a child, theirchild was born while they were gone.
And there was a marked difference,like very much different, like,
not necessarily risk averse, butthey had a lot more to live for.

(50:50):
Yeah.
Um, and it was, it was a conversationand a constant decision these young
men had to make when they had someonethat wasn't just a partner or a spouse.
It was now another living being thatthey had brought into this world.
It really changed their perspective.
And something I couldn't empathizewith, you know, I could empathize so
much, but I remembered, I rememberwitnessing that and seeing that.

(51:12):
And so, uh, I can only imaginelike as you're getting ready
to go, now you have this Yeah.
This whole other life and this wholeother family and it, the, the, the
price of a mistake I think not onlyhas the potential loss of life when
it comes to the soldiers that you'resupporting, but also if you, if you
make a mistake in a brown, like I'm sureit put a lot, a lot of weight on that.

(51:35):
Totally.
Yeah.
And, and so, you know, he's very young.
And then I go from there to thehundred first, which was a big deal.
Like that's a very, um,kind of iconic unit.
Mm-hmm.
In the army.
The 82nd, the hundredfirst, lots of trash talk.
It's not special ops, but look,that is a, a feeding ground for some
of the special ops pipelines and.

(51:55):
I was incredibly proud to go to that unit.
You know, I had read and studied Bandof Brothers, Normandy, like these
guys with the screaming Eagle patch.
So I loved going there.
They had been downrange so many times.
Oh yeah.
They like lived there.
I mean they were in the very firstbattles in to Bora Anaconda, like these
10th Mountain was there with all the,anyway, so guys I had read about are now

(52:19):
in my unit, literally like by name in Oh.
Um, not a good Day to Die.
Yeah.
And we deployed just a fewmonths after we got there.
So we go to Afghanistan in like,just before I should know the
answer to this, maybe the dayor two after Christmas, 2007.

(52:43):
And then I'm deployedbasically for all of 2008.
And that is my year in combat.
Why the Army deployments?
I, I mean, I totally understandwhy you guys, why you guys do that,
but it's generally 13 months right?
Is kind of what It's 12.
Yeah.
Okay.
Usually for us, uh, ours weresix, six and sometimes seven.
Uh, I had a couple of longer onesbased off of just, you know, being
their first and leaving last, but thefatigue that Marines felt at month five.

(53:09):
And then we, we felt for the army,we felt for the soldiers because
we would be hitting at month five.
Things start to change, right?
You have now been there a whole bunch.
You've, you know, you've learnedand understood people and we're
like, we're smelling the barn.
We're looking at like,Hey, we're outta here.
And we're looking at dudes andhanging out with guys or gals
that are like, well midway.

(53:30):
Yeah.
Just hit the halfway point.
Yeah.
And it was, um, I was actuallyappreciative of the Marine Corps
and their deployment models.
Um, because of that, I think that inthe type of environment I, you know,
and I'm not calling any kind of major,you know, service out, but I think that
in the environments that we were at.
It weighed so heavily on us becausewe were, we were cops and cops

(53:53):
that were getting attacked leftand right and couldn't fight back.
And you could only handle that somuch before you kind of go numb to it.
And that's where we felt it was dangerous.
And I remember a lot of the Marines,um, now we were a totally different
branch of service that deploysfor a totally different reason.
We are not doctrinally supposedto be, you know, uh, you

(54:14):
know, owning territory, right?
We're supposed to go in andshock troop our way and then
turn over stuff to the army.
But boy, I felt for youguys, uh, for 13 months.
Did you have any break in the 13 months?
Yeah, I had an r and r that was alittle bit early so that I could
take command while I was there.
Oh, cool.
Which was good.
Um, was the RR beneficial or wasit, 'cause we've always, like,

(54:34):
again, I've never experiencedthat, so we only Oh yeah.
That's interesting because thenyou, like, you, you're like, you're
in the fight, you go back for aweek or two or whatever it is.
Yeah.
Like 10 days you playdad for a little bit.
Yeah.
And then you're rightback into this thing.
Yeah.
It, I, I don't know.
I, I would think it was helpful, butfor me, like I really wanted to be

(54:55):
in command 'cause I was in a staffjob, which any like officer hates.
Mm-hmm.
Like you'd rather be in a line company.
Um.
But I, I kind of securedthat line company role.
And then they knowingly were like,all right, take your RR now so it
doesn't, and there's also a clean break.
Yeah.
Right.
It was really good actually for that.
Um, and to your point on the deployments,like when I was at that school at

(55:18):
Benning, the M Triple C mm-hmm.
Lots of those guys were onthe front edge of the surge.
And so like, we had a couple ofStryker guys who were this infamous
unit that literally came back froma 12 month, got off the plane, and
Rumsfeld was like, get back on.
And they didn't get to see their families.
They put 'em on the plane and sent'em back for four more months.

(55:41):
Oh no.
And they would talk to me about the,and these are all officers who were
platoon leaders, and some of 'emwere going to Ranger regiment and
some were going sf and others werejust going back into big infantry.
Um, but truly like the, the necessity tobe there for guys who are going through
the, dude, we were going home at 12 monthsand now we're going back for four more.

(56:03):
Same place.
And you know how it feelswhen you're redeploying.
You're like, all right, Ican let this weight drop.
Yeah.
And, and then have toput that armor back on.
Yeah.
So, so visceral the way theytalked about it, it was, again,
very helpful for me to hear.
What was the, what was the,the reasoning behind the surge?
It was the surge.
It was like.
We, we need all you guys there still.

(56:25):
I mean, I'm not the brightestguy in the world, but I feel
like the Army's pretty big.
Like I I I'm sure these are questionsthat a lot of Yeah, no, I know.
You know, your guys and galsasked through that, but man,
that would, it's interesting.
Morale killer I could have.
And then how do you as the commanderRight, as a, you know, in the
unit that got redeployed Right.
You know, dealing with that, likethey're pulling the, the, the little
rug out from underneath these guys.

(56:46):
Totally.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, that now have to like, go back.
That would be very hard to manage.
Um, I think on a human scale so hard.
So yeah, I come back from r and rand, and it's, it, it, as you know,
'cause you've been in Afghanistan,it's probably April of, of the year,
so like the cold months have gone.
Mm-hmm.
The fighting season kind of starts.

(57:07):
Mm-hmm.
A couple guys had gotten into fights.
One of our sister battalion, so I'm incoast in Eastern Afghanistan mm-hmm.
At Fab Salerno.
And one of our units that's upin, um, Jalalabad, which was
known for just being a little morekinetic, had already had a fight.
The, the company commander there isthis guy that I really, really liked

(57:29):
Joe Brule and almost want to hatehim 'cause he was so good at his job.
Um, he, he did.
So his, his, uh.
A company gets into this nasty fight.
It's the first one of our deployment.
He writes this really nice, aa r sends it to all the company
commanders and battalion commanders.
He's like the golden boy's.
What?
He is totally golden boy.
I, and we would give each other Yeah.

(57:50):
Shit later on.
And, and I, I love that guy,but I remember reading that
like, ah, he got into it.
I didn't, and I took over froma guy who is truly a legend
in the aviation community.
His name's Clint Cody.
His dad was the highest ranking,um, general in aviation.
Oh, wow.
So he was vice chief of Staff ofthe Army at the time when Clint

(58:11):
and I were serving together.
So literally everybody knowsthe Cody, the Cody clan.
General Cody came in and did thechange of command ceremony for us.
Like everybody loved Clint andI was taking over, I was this
guy who'd never been in combat.
Clint was in Torah, Bora, like impostersyndrome through the roof, which is
another reason some of these guys,um, who I serve with for that year,

(58:34):
you know, later a couple of them havereached out and they're like, Hey,
I heard combat story and I wanted totell you, you and Clint were the two
best company commanders I ever had.
That's fantastic.
And just to be mentioned in the samevein, uh, meant a lot to me, obviously,
but it was, it was tough coming in.
I'd much rather take over from a moron.
Yeah, totally.
It just ran something into the ground.
Totally.
Yeah.
But that wasn't the case.

(58:55):
I took over from a great guy who, who'sstill in, he's a brigade commander.
What was your first conversation?
So I'm not gonna ask you whothe most important people inside
of a aviation squadron are.
We all know they're the maintainers,but the, um, you know, with your
conversation with the people that youwere leading when you had, you know,
literally a giant, I have a friendof mine who took, did the same thing.

(59:17):
We have a guy Brian Osh,who's like a legend.
We had a friend, now a friend ofmine who took over as a company
commander in Fallujah from a legend.
And I remember his firstconversation with us, um, and
how he kind of went through that.
How was that?
When did you address the entire company?
Did you go section by section?
Um, how did you try to instillconfidence in these young men

(59:41):
and women that were forward?
That you're not going to fail.
Yeah.
That you're going to carryon this legacy with them.
Gosh.
And they can trust you.
So embarrassing.
So, uh, so embarrassing.
I already have all this imposter syndrome.
Um, rightly so.
And Clint is a great guy.
He and I got on very well and he didso much to set me up for success.

(01:00:01):
Um, we're doing the, the handoverand first thing you have to do
is a change of command inventory,which is a pain in the butt.
You gotta inventory all theserial numbers on every piece
of gear, including helicopters.
Yeah, yeah.
And all the eight, I don't knowhow those go missing, but Sure.
It's terrible.
But like little boxes on the aircraft.
Um, so Doug Dein is my firstsergeant, tough maintainer,

(01:00:24):
older guy, has a couple kids.
He has been down range a few times,like a few too many times, right?
And so, yeah, I know the type,so I'm like, Hey, top, we gotta,
we gotta inventory everything.
And he's like, we'renot doing the aircraft.
And I was like, Nope.
Pull everything off.
We're gonna inventory.
He's like, we're in combat.
We're not doing that.
And this is behind closed doors.

(01:00:45):
And I'm like, no, we're gonna do it.
And we have this fight and we start.
And this is just whatI should not have done.
So we, I, I can't remember how far we gotinto it, but eventually I saw the error of
my ways and, and I came back to him and Iwas like, all right, we're not doing that.
And, and I, but I did say, Hey, youand I, we have to be on the same page.

(01:01:09):
Sure.
And I'm gonna make sure that we are.
And we had it out.
And it, there was a little bitboth ways in that, going both ways.
Um, and he and I are friends to this day.
Like he was such a great partner for me.
And it just took a, nokidding, like sit down.
Hey, I screwed this up asthe junior commander guy.

(01:01:30):
He, I can't, it was probably in public.
We had this discussion that shouldn'thave happened in public and we
both just said like, we're here tosupport each other and this is it.
And that's what I should have saidbefore I did anything was had this
discussion with him in private Sure.
And just really said like, weare gonna live and die together.
And we did.
And it worked completely well after that.

(01:01:51):
Um, but I wish I, and I thinkthe, the crux of this was we
had this disagreement in public.
Yeah, totally.
And that was the thing that shouldnot have happened for both of us.
It's hard 'cause egos flare.
Right?
Totally.
You know, you're in charge andI'm, and I'm worried like this
is what I've been told I have todo as a good officer, I do this.
Yeah, totally.
And I needed to be more flexible.
And Clint had deployed multiple timesand he's like, this is the fourth

(01:02:12):
time you don't need to do this, man.
Okay.
So I actually have listento them a follow up on that.
That is, 'cause now we're in this, it'skind of a, uh, an old trope that happens
is you have the young officer totallywith the seasoned enlisted and both have
their way of doing things and both ofthem are the right way of doing things.
Yes.
If you ask, you're right.
What advice would you give toyoung officers, uh, in this space?

(01:02:37):
'cause I had never beenan officer in this space.
So what advice would you give whena senior enlisted says, Hey, this
is how we do things in this unit.
And, and almost it, it almost seemslike both are almost kind of, vying for
control is an interesting kind of dynamic.
Yeah.
'cause there's a human element.
What would you say would be a a, a goodpiece of advice for a young lieutenant

(01:02:57):
who is taking over a, uh, a platoon?
I don't know your guys'like specifically Yep.
Platoon.
Yep.
Uh, in the aviation, we haveinfantry platoon commanders that
run headlong right into their seniorenlisted because they're fresh out.
So there's like very much like aninstitutional way of doing things.
Yeah.
And then there's like, theway things are kind of done.
How would you suggest peoplenavigate that in the future?

(01:03:19):
So I think I did it correctlyas a platoon leader, which makes
this even more embarrassing when Iscrewed it up later, like I had the
right answer and I was like, we'regonna go a different direction.
Because in Garrison it was like howeverything was taught pre nine 11.
And I think in combat I justneeded to be more flexible.
And I did, I took some risksbefore taking command that probably

(01:03:39):
were ill-advised, but helpfulfor, for my career progression.
This is one where screwing that up,screwing up a change of command inventory
only hurts me really as the commander.
Okay.
Like I signed for everything.
It's my name on the line.
Sure.
Some of it's delegated, but truly in theend, if something's missing, it's on me.
So if we screw that up, that's on me andI should have allowed flexibility there.

(01:04:04):
If it's ethical and you know, somebody'sa is on the line and it's someone
else, I'd probably draw a harder line.
But where I can fall back and, hey, ifsomething goes wrong, it's my butt on
the line and not one of the soldiersProbably give a little more flexibility
and listen to the seasoned guy.
That's interesting.
But if it's ethical and, andlike we have a disagreement and
we wanna look the other way.

(01:04:24):
No.
Like I, I think you still gottahold the line right on that.
That's a tough one.
It, I, I can, I can definitely see manyinstances in my own career where we.
I do not envy young officerstaking over seasoned platoons.
No, that is not a, um, we can do abetter job as a military preparing

(01:04:46):
these young officers for thoseinitial conversations and what,
um, how to navigate those things.
I, I think, and we'll let people do itout in the comments if they have an idea
of what the right one is, because it'svery tough for the, I would get asked
that as a, you know, my previous rankand title, that was one of the things I
had a lot of lieutenants come to me andsay, gunner, I have X platoon sergeant.

(01:05:09):
I don't know how to get through this.
And sometimes it was me having to forceboth of them saying, both you two, sit
down in this room and figure it out.
Yep.
Because the longer that youguys, mommy hates daddy.
Oh, it's mom and dad.
Dude.
It is.
And, and the longer that you fight,the kids see it and kids will see it.
Not now.
I'm not, you know, saying any of the youngenlisted or, you know, staff and CEOs

(01:05:31):
or kids, but we're using the metaphor.
Even the officers, the platoonleaders are gonna see it.
They're all watching you.
They're all watching.
They're all watching you and howyou're gonna get along, especially when
you're taking over from like a legend.
Yep.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Did you talk to him and belike, Hey, what do I do in this?
Or was he gone by that point?
Um, he had taken off pretty quickly,not he was going to like one 60th

(01:05:51):
selection, so he is just like,couldn't have done any better.
Yeah, right.
You know, and they're like pulling himinto this unit and, but he was, he was
very helpful and he, he even said tome, Ryan, you don't need to do this.
But, but at the same time I was thinking,well, it's easy for you to say your dad's
like vice chief of staff of the Army.
You have a little bitmore top cover than I do.
But that's not fair to say either.
He didn't have to do it for that reason.
Um, and it was truly justlike, this is how you do it.

(01:06:14):
Do it this way.
Don't screw up.
And I should have just been more flexible.
Interesting.
Yeah.
I've heard the trope before, youknow that no matter what, always
listen to your senior enlisted.
Right.
And I think, and I think that's good,but I also have been the senior enlisted
who likes to do things that are lessthan doctrine or less than what, like
that would potentially put you Right.

(01:06:35):
Or the commander at apotential disadvantage.
Totally.
Yep.
Interesting.
And so it's, I I, I love the ideathat you're talking about who would
really suffer if this thing screwed up.
Yeah.
You know, would, was there going to be apotential loss of limb life or eyesight?
No.
It's maybe I get reprimanded and Iwas already, and this can probably

(01:06:55):
transition us, I was alreadythinking of getting outta the army.
Interesting.
So I, I really wanted tocommand in combat, but I didn't
see myself long term in it.
Sure.
Yeah.
I think a lot of guys that I've seen istheir favorite position as an officer
has always been like a company commander.
Yeah.
That after that it gets kind of politicaland sometimes people get yada yadas.

(01:07:16):
Right.
Um, and I can see that.
And so when you're like, you'vereached that and you're like, I'm good.
So, okay.
So you were there for 12 months?
Yeah.
Um, you had six months as a commander.
Uh, a company commander, probably eightmonths in country as a company commander.
Okay.
Okay.
So eight months in country and, and,and primarily you said outta coast?
Yep.
Okay.
What I understand is that the Armyuses their Apaches, like Calvary, they

(01:07:41):
employ them as almost an attacking unitwhere we in the Marine Corps oftentimes
place our aviation as a supporting unit.
Or you, I'm sorry, a maneuver unit.
You guys might be your own maneuver unit.
Mm-hmm.
How did that work when you wereworking and you were underneath
the hundred and first at the time?
Yep.
I was in the hundred andfirst we were in a task force
element, which just meant that.

(01:08:02):
Like traditionally there'd bethree Apache companies in one
location, but they split us out.
So we had Chinooks, Blackhawks,Apaches, and Kyles all in one unit.
So Lyft, reconnaissance,gunships, all of that.
Okay.
Yep.
So just for flexibility in thebattle space, which was a good idea.
And my battalion commander therewas the Apache Battalion commander,

(01:08:22):
whereas in other locations youhad the lift guy or the recon guy.
Um, there were really twotypes of missions we had.
We were always on QRF, we alwayshad a QRF ready to respond
if somebody was in a fight.
Um, so we'd have twoaircraft always ready to go.
And earlier we were saying like24 aircraft online in Iraq.
Um, that never happened.

(01:08:43):
We almost never had morethan four Apaches at once.
So typically it's going outin a pair of two aircraft.
Wow.
So very different than whatthese guys started the war with.
So we'd have QRF readyto go and we'd probably.
If you didn't get called because wehave duty day as, as you all know,
certain time where we can fly and thenwe can't fly anymore for crew rest.

(01:09:06):
So I'm gonna call, I'm gonna digin on crew rest for a minute.
Let me tell you.
If we got too far into our QRF window andwe knew we were approaching crew rest,
we'd launch and just go and, and touchbase with different units on the ground.
Like, do you want us to go look atsomething beyond your line of sight?
Can we go help you out?
Do you need us to do anything for you?
So we'd launch almost every day whenwe were on QRF if we didn't get called.

(01:09:29):
And then the rest of thetime we were doing what we'd
call deliberate operations.
Sometimes it would be an escortfor a lift aircraft, dropping
off equipment here or there.
And then other times it would be like we'dhave a an ODA unit co-located with us.
So we'd go and do deliberate opswhere they'd go and, and hit a house.
There was no like little birds for one60th, couldn't operate at this altitude.

(01:09:53):
That's generally, that's aninteresting question I have about
al. So in coast it's interesting.
If you look at Afghanistan, it's thisbull that's surrounded by mountains.
Mm-hmm.
So chios typically operated withinside coast, and then we would fly
and go outside in Apache 'cause wehave more, uh, we just have more
power we could get outside of thebowl and we'd go and support five or

(01:10:16):
six other provinces in Afghanistan.
Okay.
So we had like at least a 30, usually a 20minute flight to just get outside of our.
Immediate bull and then we'd fly out therefor hours and refuel and hang out and we'd
go support a bunch of different units.
You guys touch tankersand stuff like that?
Or far FARs we go down,yeah, we'd have FARs.
Okay.
But typically it, it's some other FOBthat already had refueling, so it was

(01:10:38):
those two mission sets, QRF, and thenthese more deliberate planned operations.
Okay.
Any, okay, so I gotta dig in oncrew rest because as a ground
guy, I gotta get my dates.
I hate.
I remember viscerally beinglike sleeping in what we call
on the ship a pee way, right?
So like we're on the ramp and so likethere's these hard metal ramps and

(01:11:01):
we're going in for like a real lifemission and I'm gonna go be in this
place for 96 hours and bad guy country.
And the pilots had to change shift.
We had to scrub the missionbecause of crew rest.
And then I, and then what thatmeant for the ground guys was I just
continued to lay on the hard, cold,concrete of the ship wherever I was at.

(01:11:23):
Or not concrete, whole metalof the ship that I was at.
I remember getting readyto go on a bird to go.
I hadn't slept 'causeI was the team leader.
I was planning this whole mission, right?
I'm gonna be out there for 96 hours.
And then as we're like jockedup, walking out to the birds, the
pilots come out of their crew.
It's heated, right?
Like heat escapes and they'relike, like rubbing their eyes.

(01:11:43):
And I was like.
Crew rest.
I have to go live for 96 hours.
I mean, I get it.
You're, you're carrying One of thecool things, I don't know if the
Army does this, but when aircraftlift off in the Marine Corps, or
I think at least in the Navy Yeah.
In Navy as well, they would, they wouldmention they were, they were lifting off
with two pilots and then 21 Souls sos.
Yeah.

(01:12:04):
That is so cool to me.
Yeah.
'cause it, to me what it doesis it reminds you as the pilot
of what you're actually doing.
That's right.
And so that's the only,like I get it, crew rest.
Right.
You know, I can give you a crediton that one, uh, because you
are carrying souls into combat.
Right.
And so I appreciate that.
But man, I crew rest.
I, that is one of the thingsthat will always, always
grind my gears as ground up.

(01:12:25):
The other, the other thing mostpeople don't know is when, when
you're flying, like we could fly nakedEye N VGs or flir, so infrared and
you had different amounts of time.
You could fly in a given daydepending on what you were flying.
So if you were flying infraredonly, I can't remember now.
Maybe your max time was like four hoursbecause the powers that be decided,

(01:12:48):
it's that taxing on your mind thatyou shouldn't be up longer than that.
I think it's actually probably correct.
Yeah.
And, and, and so there is like alot of these rules in aviation are
written in blood kind of a Yeah.
Mentality.
And over time and, and literally, likewhen my dad was in Vietnam, one of the
guys he knew was shot down over a river.
And we have an emergency procedureand we train on all these

(01:13:10):
emergency procedures in aviation.
And one of them is what happensif you go into the water?
And it's very possible, mydad and I have joked that this
guy figured out what you do.
Like he may have been thefirst shot down over water.
You go into the water, you shut allthe engines down, which all sounds
like common sense, but if you canenvision like crashing or being
shot down in a combat zone, chaotic.

(01:13:31):
Yeah.
A lot of things going on, um, to allowthe aircraft to settle and turn over
so that when you exit and go up, you'renot going into spinning rotor blades.
That makes sense.
So again, you think it through, but likethis guy had to do it and they didn't
have this Emerge emergency procedurethat they trained on at the time.
Um, but anyway, I say thisbecause it's, it's written in in

(01:13:52):
blood and, and trial and error.
I'm sure there's something to accrue.
Rest.
Pilots don't like it either.
Like when we're out there and wehad to come back, like there were a
couple times we had to get permissionfrom Star so and so at Bagram so
we could stay in a fight Right.
For 10 hours.
Yeah.
Instead of being up for eight.
I totally understand why it's there.
I'm never gonna not do guys.
No, I know.

(01:14:12):
Nor would I. Yeah.
Okay, so now you guys arecruising around coast.
The, uh, altitude was a big issue inAfghanistan, more so, um, you had a lot
of environmentals to deal with, right?
You guys had a lot of brownouts,I think were a potential thing.
Uh, specifically in the low lying areas.
And then altitude for the Marines,we couldn't really fly 40 sixes.

(01:14:33):
40 sixes struggled.
Um, our smaller versionof the Chinook, right?
Mm-hmm.
They struggled a lot in Afghanistanbecause of the, you know, oh, interesting.
Thinner air and the mixture.
Um, and being able to generate enoughlift with a full, you know, carrying pe.
Mm-hmm.
One of my BRC instructors hadbeen in two helicopter crashes
as a reconnaissance marine.
And you were like, you know, whenyou're like the tough guy and

(01:14:53):
you're like, you know, scared,you're not gonna make it through.
Like, this guy's been throughtwo helicopter crashes, right.
One of them was a 46 lost power, orcouldn't generate lift in Afghanistan,
and their backend slid down the, likethey, the pilot was, had the enough
wherewithal that even when losing power,like planted his, his tail into the,

(01:15:13):
uh, mountain side to help drag himdown so that he could make a hard land.
That's, that's awesome.
Um, absolutely fascinatingwhat you guys do.
So you said some limitationsinside of there with altitude.
Are you allowed todiscuss your loiter time?
Your Yeah.
Uh, range.
I mean, are, are, what were those,like far as, so we had extended
fuel bladders, basically, or tankswhen we were flying in Afghanistan.

(01:15:35):
So with, with a full load,we could probably fly for
two to two and a half hours.
Oh wow.
And then we'd have to refuel and.
And, but when you are taken off with afull load, you, you have very little power
margin, which just means like you have tobe very sensitive with the controls and
you can't be as responsive as you'd like.
Oh, okay.
It's a heavier bust basically.

(01:15:56):
It's heavy.
Yeah, it's very heavy.
But the problem is therearen't really limits.
So like you could pull in toomuch power and destroy the engine
and crash if you're not careful.
So you have to be very cognizant ofwhat's going on with your instruments.
So you don't do that and overtoric or, or do something
that's gonna overtax the system.

(01:16:16):
Wow.
So, so that is very concerning, especiallyfor more junior pilots, which I still
was at the time, even in that role.
Okay.
Um, and so you just feel tremendousresponsibility for the other guy in the
aircraft If you're the one in charge thatyou're landing in the right place, like
you're often landing to a very small fob,which probably looks big if you're an

(01:16:37):
infantryman, but for us it's not a runway.
Sure.
So you're coming in, you got very littleto work with and you gotta come in
plant fairly quickly without hittingthe ground too hard, but without pulling
in too much power at the same time.
So it's this very delicatedance of coming in.
Everything's different with power margins.
I can imagine.
Do you a lot of simulator timebefore and then I'm sure a lot
of stick time while you were.

(01:16:58):
You know, you, you try, but youdon't get a ton of sim time or stick
time unless you're in one 60th.
So, ah, it's just not a lot andyou learn quickly on the job.
Okay.
I can, I imagine.
Yeah.
Well, again, it's, it's,you know, no fail missions.
Right.
You know, that's, um, when you, whenyou're supporting, you know, some pretty
heavy units, the last thing that youwould want to do for a ground team that's
in contact, right, that has a lot ofother problems is to bail a bird out.

(01:17:22):
Right.
You know, you're like, great,now I gotta handle this.
Right.
Two pilots with m fours that areliterally like two months before we
rotated in left seat, right seat ride.
Like two guys flew into amountain, like it's no kidding.
Just 'cause of the, the altitude,the terrain, the enemy situation.
And they all, all four guys walkedaway from it, but that can happen.

(01:17:42):
One, one guy lost a tail rotor cominghome, so had to come in real fast.
These are things that you'd read about,but they all happened within three
months of us getting into country.
And these are right.
You know, that's the hard part.
Very real.
These are humans dealing withextraordinary circumstances that
sometimes the human element is youdo the best with what you have.
Yep.
Uh, that's fantastic.
Okay.

(01:18:03):
So did you have any specific majormoments in Afghanistan that were, um,
you know, I would say where you felt thatyou had fulfilled what you wanted to do?
You know, not necessarily justa, a troops in contact, but that
you're like, I'm in this position.
I'm in this place, in thistime, in this moment, in this

(01:18:24):
space to solve this problem.
And I, now I get it.
Why all this was worth it.
I, I'll say two, just people have probablyheard me talk about different ones
before, but these two still stick with me.
Um, one was, uh, actually a non-kinetic,but very important for me personally.
So there were, we were QRF,so two aircraft, four people,

(01:18:48):
uh, four guys in this case.
We had one woman in our unit.
She was great.
Just happened to be four of us.
And the most junior ranking,but still an experienced pilot
was in the other aircraft.
His name was Jason McCormick.
And we were flying on a QRF for a troopsin contact at night with very bad weather.

(01:19:08):
And I don't think a lot of the loom fromthe moon, which is important because
as you know, um, n VGs don't just work.
Yeah.
Because they're built a certain way.
They need ambient light.
Mm-hmm.
From the moon and stars.
So if the moon is low on the horizon orbehind the horizon, which is important,
you could have no loom some nights,in which case Nvg don't work as well.

(01:19:29):
And in aviation, you could not fly.
So only Apaches and.
O often.
Uh, HI think they were HH sixtiesin the, so the, like the Csar Yeah.
Air Force mm-hmm.
Could go out.
'cause they had FLIR and Apacheshad FLIR at that time at least.
So very few birds could actually go out.
And it was good 'cause we all had theQRF mission or medevac in the HH 60 part.

(01:19:53):
So I think this was a night where we'reflying flir, very low cloud cover, going
up to an infantry unit that was on theother side of a mountain range in contact.
And for, for us, as we're getting a callfor this on our fob, like we're up all
night, you know, vampire type mm-hmm.
Cycle.
We get a call, we go out and we'rejust getting, we're literally

(01:20:15):
running out to an aircraft.
We pref flighted earlier that day.
And as we're running, we've got radiosand the talk, our kind of mission
center is relaying what they know ofwhat's going on, what's being relayed
probably from like a unit that can'tcommunicate with its higher headquarters.
So it's going through someoneelse to their hire to ours,
back to our talk to us.
So it's like this long game of telephoneinfantry unit just near the border.

(01:20:40):
In contact need help.
We launch, it's probably a 30 minuteflight out to this place, so we're
getting ready and we know it's badweather going into this pass and we
are not allowed to go into the clouds.
We're like prohibited.
If we go into the clouds, we're,we aren't equipped to go in.
We technically can survive it,but we're told not to go into

(01:21:01):
clouds or else it's too dangerous.
Interesting.
Um, so we know that that's a hard stop.
So we, what we're doing basically istrying to see if we can get over this
mountain range but under the cloud deck.
And so we're going in and it's a longnarrow valley to get up and we're
probably, you know, we're trying togo fast 'cause the, we know these
guys in contact, you're in contact andwe can't communicate with them yet.

(01:21:24):
But maybe 15 minutes out we we're ontheir frequency and we start hearing the
contact and these guys calling for us.
And you know, I've talked to some otheraviators where you learn over time like
how dire the situation is based on thevoice of, of the guys on the ground.
Huh.
And like, have they lost somebody yet?

(01:21:45):
How chaotic is it?
And this felt visceral.
Like you could tell thesepeople needed help and, and we
can tell the weather is bad.
And so we're going in and Jason,this junior W2 at the time.
In the other aircraft.
And I'm the company commander, right?
So I'm his like boss's boss.
He's like, Hey sir, Ithink we need to turn back.

(01:22:06):
The weather's bad.
And, and I just was like,no, we're gonna keep pushing.
And we kept going and we're herelike the, we're starting to hear more
comms now and like I'm with the groundcommander, the other aircraft is starting
to try to pick up other, other comms.
And we're, we're just hearing more andmore and we can tell, and we're trying to

(01:22:27):
orient on the target on our maps as we'reflying in and it's dark, low cloud cover.
And again, he's like, Hey sir, Ireally think we need to turn back.
This is getting bad.
We should not be here.
And we kept pushing it.
And then eventually, and, andthese guys are like, we need cut.
We need support.
Get in here.
Um, they weren't getting clearedfor artillery for whatever reason.

(01:22:49):
And, and eventually the otherpilot in my aircraft was like,
Hey sir, we gotta turn around.
And it was a guy I deeply trusted.
This is one of the guys Iwant to interview one day,
but don't know if I can.
And he is like, we got a turnaround, sir.
And, and if you can, this isthe kind of thing in ROTC that
I wish somebody had run by me.
Like, are you gonna push two aircraft,four people to get over this mountain

(01:23:11):
pass, not know if you could do anything.
Would you make it in time?
Are you willing to letsomebody on the other side die?
Are you gonna break the rulesslightly and go through the clouds?
How do you make this decision?
And in the end, I was like, we'regonna turn around and go back.
So we did.
Maybe we lived because ofit, maybe we would've gotten
over there and helped them.
And one of the hardest thingsabout aviation is, I have

(01:23:33):
no idea what happened there.
I don't know if anybody died.
I don't know any ofthose people personally.
I have no idea if we, you know,somebody's dad died that night.
'cause of us.
Um, several years later,Jason died in Korea.
He flew into power lines, which isvery common in the aviation community.
Um, which is, you know, tragic.

(01:23:54):
But I still remember himpossibly saving my own life.
Sure.
Like if we had pushed in there,we could have run into a mountain.
We could have lost our visibility.
And there's obviously good reasons asto why those protocols are in place.
Yeah.
They're there to protect, you know,not to complicate the situation,
but there is a human element.
I completely understand is I feel foryou in that because you have these

(01:24:19):
people, you can hear it in their voice.
The desperation that is the scary part is,you know, the communication assets that
we have can pick up inflection, invoice.
They're a lot better than they used to.
And, and you can heardesperation in somebody's voice.
That must have been an, anincredibly tough decision to make.
It was tough.
It was tough.
You know, like, do you keepgoing and see what happens?

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(01:26:07):
I think often what I do when I facedecisions like that, I've had decisions
on shoot, no shoot before, um, is if Ican offer any advice in this from, from
somebody who's been in the same type ofscenario, you know, not flying obviously,
but is that you made the decision withthe information you had at the time.
Yeah.
And that is all that we can askyoung Americans to do when we go

(01:26:31):
back and continue to armchair.
And what if we can, whatif ourselves to death.
You know?
I think that, um, if you, in yourheart of hearts, know that you
made the decision the best thing.
'cause I can see you welling up.
Oh yeah.
No.
It's like, it's tough still.
I can see the weight of the guilt and I,if there's anything that I can do to tell

(01:26:51):
you that you can take that weight offbecause you, you made a tough decision.
That's what officers get paid to do.
Man.
It's hard though.
You get paid to make tough decisions andif it easy decision, it would've been made
a long time ago in the chain of command.
Totally.
It just had completely to you.
Completely.
And when you're doing, this is one ofthe things in the podcast where I'm

(01:27:13):
searching for those things like whatare the things in training they never
gave you the, the no win scenario.
Yeah.
Where neither outcome is good.
How did you handle those?
Like, those are, thoseare the moments that.
Are impactful to people.
Right.
Like, this is impactful for me.
I'm sure the shoot, noshoot for you is similar.
Absolutely.

(01:27:33):
'cause you're deciding on, youknow, taking someone's life.
Mm-hmm.
Or trying to potentially save,there's a whole what if in there,
you know, the Marine Corps is good.
I'm sure the Army does it as well.
We do a lot of tactical decision games,um, that put people, what we have
learned as a service is over time we'veplaced into tactical decision games
where we can make a no win scenario.

(01:27:53):
Or it's a very based offof real life examples.
And I think yours would be a primeexample because there's a human element.
I think that this would be a very,very good TDG or tactical decision
game for a young officer, a youngpilot saying, I think a lot of people
in a room back in Benning, right?
Yeah.
Would say punch through, punchthrough, save the guys on the ground.

(01:28:15):
But you're not there looking at thecloud cover and flying flir Right.
When you're onlyinstruments at that point.
Right.
Where in Afghanistan, mountainsjust show up outta nowhere.
Right.
Where you could slam into a mountain.
Yeah.
And now this troops, now theirtroops in contact also pilot covered.
Somebody has to come get us.
Yep.
That's really tough.
Um, I'm sorry that youhad to go through that.

(01:28:37):
I'm glad that you're No, I meanthat's, you know what I signed up for.
It's just.
That's the reality of, of that experience.
Does that experience shape how yougo through a decision matrix today
when you are in, you know, um, youknow, let's transition into the idea.
Yeah.
So you moved into the, eventually youmoved into the clandestine services.

(01:28:58):
Yeah.
Did that decision stay with youwhen you were in scenarios where
you were like having to weighbetween two equally bad options?
I, I think it did.
I, I've probably always been proneto like, try to get as much info as
I can before making the decision,which I think is sounds logical, but
some people are very comfortable andconfident, like getting a little bit of

(01:29:20):
info and making a decision and moving.
I, I kind of wanna understand whatmy last moment is and have a lot of
context and try to make a decision.
I think what was so differentat the agency is that is a
very individual experience.
Hmm.
If I had been in a singleseat aircraft, sure.

(01:29:41):
I probably would've punched through,but I'm like Wayne, Jason, yeah.
And his kids.
Yeah.
Sean and his new kid.
Like all of that is weighing on me in theagency when I'm running around and I screw
something up on in route as long as it'snot gonna impact the asset that's on me.

(01:30:02):
But, so I was very muchwilling to take more risk Yeah.
In that scenario, as long asit didn't impact the asset.
That's, that's so interesting to be ableto have that delineation between the two.
Like, Hey, if I'm gonna burn in fine.
Right.
Yeah.
There's a potential of that, that's fine.
But if I'm, wow, that's I the level, Idon't know that we always capture, you
know, the weight that young officershave to have on their shoulders

(01:30:26):
when making decisions that arelegitimately life and death decisions.
You know?
Um, I, I know in the past we'vedone things where the officers
would not get to know their men.
Right.
So that they could thensend them as a tool.
Yeah.
Instead of that.
I think culturally that has been rootedout pretty well, um, to make sure that,
you know, I think that we, we, as a young,as a young guy, I always appreciated when

(01:30:48):
I knew my officers, but I also understoodthe rules of the game, so, okay.
So you get back fromthis deployment, right?
This is a heavily kineticdeployment for you.
Mm-hmm.
Youre in a lot of, uh, alot of not so great places.
Um, you know, through that you come backfrom the deployment and now you know that
this is your son downing your career.
Yep.
Now, this was a, you had, you had knownthat this was pretty much gonna be, it,

(01:31:11):
was there a single deciding point that yousaid, I am gonna get off the track and.
If, if there was, I don't rememberit, but I, I didn't really think I
was gonna be a lifer in the army.
I didn't quite know what Iwas gonna end up doing, but
that just wasn't gonna be it.
And I wanted to do aviation, do my time.
It's a longer commitment in aviation thanother branches 'cause of the training.

(01:31:31):
Um, and that deployment was quite kinetic.
And the second interview I ever didfor Combat story was with JT Snow,
who was the most senior pilot inour unit who I flew with a few times
and admire the hell out of him.
And he had done four deployments.
And when we did our interview, he saidlike, that was by far the worst, the
hardest deployment he was on, which meanta lot to me 'cause it felt terrible, but

(01:31:55):
I didn't have anything to compare it to.
Sure.
Um, and I just didn't knowwhat I was gonna do next.
And I made this really bad mistake ofmaking a clean cut from the military
and government and everything.
I was like, oh, I'm, Igot my MBA, IM gonna go.
And Did you go to Georgetownfor the BA? I did not.
I went to Florida, which is, is,it's like community college was held

(01:32:16):
against me later, but that's like mywife, all of her family went there.
Uh, I have a brother who went there,so I love being a gator and it was
a good time 'cause they won thenational championship a couple times.
Oh, ah geez.
Um, but anyway, I had this, I waslike, oh, I'm gonna go into business
and leave all this killing behind.
And it took me like two to three monthsto realize what a mistake I had made.
So I was at, this was 2009, 2010.

(01:32:40):
Both wars are raging at the time.
Um, going.
To barbecues on the weekend andgolfing with folks, and we're in
Raleigh, North Carolina, great place.
I'm working for Johnson andJohnson, getting paid way
more than I'd ever been paid.
And I just felt terrible.
Hmm.
And I, I missed so much of it.

(01:33:02):
The guys, the camaraderie,the bullshit, the shit talking
and the mission of course.
And all you could read aboutwas Iraq and Afghanistan.
I, it was huge.
And, and the same guys I was deployedwith are going down range again.
I felt horrible.
So I told Val, I was like, Igotta get back into this thing

(01:33:24):
and we're gonna try the CIA.
How did that conversation go?
She was very supportive of that.
Did she like raise an eyebrow at you?
Did she know this?
I mean, were, there's, did this kind oflike percolate or was this like a I came
outta the shower one day and I was like,Hey babe, we gotta have a coffee to talk.
No.
Yeah.
It, it was a few conversationsand she was very understanding and

(01:33:45):
she knew my family grew up, youknow how I grew up overseas Okay.
In these different embassycommunities and loved it.
And, and it's the stuff that onmy own time, that's what I looked
at, like international relations,it's security and these topics.
That's what my dad and Iwould always talk about.
My brothers, everyone.
That's what I studied.
So not surprising.

(01:34:05):
And I tried to get into the StateDepartment also and couldn't pass
their exam, which is hilarious 'causeI literally went to Georgetown's
School of Foreign Service andcouldn't get into foreign service.
Failed that thing three times.
And, but I did get intothe agency, which is good.
Like that was perfect for me.
While State Department wasperfect for my dad and my dad
could not get into the agency.
Interesting.
It's hilarious.

(01:34:26):
Um, so it was a good fit in the end.
And, and that was the exactright job for me was the agency
as opposed to the military.
I loved it, but not like this,the agency was great for me.
Did you feel a sense of, of home,I think when, when getting back
into the fight, so to speak?
Yes.
So at the agency, when you startout, you have these trainee periods

(01:34:51):
before you go to get trained.
So you're a trainee atheadquarters basically.
And they send you these differentoffices to, to just not screw anything
up from the headquarters side.
And they throw you into the deep end.
Like you're looking at stuff that'sgoing on in the war or really covert
ops that are happening that it'ssurprising they show you this, this

(01:35:13):
early, but they just don't have enoughpeople, especially during the war.
So you could, you could work some overtimeand, and support the war effort by
doing stuff for them from headquarters.
Nothing scary, but it was great.
I felt like, hey, I'm gonna helpthese guys on the ground somehow.
And I was reading about these places Ihad used, you know, I, I had fought in.

(01:35:35):
So that felt great.
And then I, I remember I was therewhen they got Bin Laden and it
was, you were in the, the time.
Yeah.
And I, I had nothing to do with it.
I was not part of it.
Um, sure.
But I just, no, I wish I was a part of it.
I mean, there was even almost like, damn,I wish, I wish she was still around,
so I could have been part of that.

(01:35:56):
Yeah, sure.
There's always that.
Yeah.
Um, but I wasn't, so I guess toyour point, it did feel like home.
And I grew up in this environmentwhere my, the embassy communities
are small and in most places the realestate department people know the
agency people, and they're close.
And I had just grown up around them.
My parents knew legends of the ccia.

(01:36:19):
A like one of the guys that we were veryclose friends with, there's a conference
room named after him at the agency.
And I, I would like go over andspend Saturdays at his house.
Yeah.
And, and we'd have these dinnerparties in our homes that my dad would
throw, my parents would throw, andlike I'd walk out to go get a snack.
10:00 PM and I'd walk through this likeall these people in suits who, look

(01:36:41):
people from China and Mozambique andRussia, and Americans in this room.
And I didn't know it at the time, but someof them were doing legit diplomatic stuff.
Others were doing agency things.
Wow.
Um, and so I was fascinated byit, but I understood that part of
the world where a lot of guys whoget into the agency have no idea.
I can imagine I had some understandingof what the world was like.

(01:37:04):
Also the lifestyle, becauseyou had a family at the time.
Uh, you had one son at that time.
We had two.
That's okay.
Two sons at this time.
Yeah.
Um, doing math for Marinesin my head on some ages.
Um, okay.
So I, when I talk with a lot ofguys, uh, who get out of the service,
uh, that's what they always miss.
I think that is the idea of a senseof purpose, a sense of belonging.

(01:37:27):
Um, did you, when you said that when youwere working for Johnson and Johnson, that
was just kind of, it just wasn't there.
Right.
That's been really tough.
Uh, I felt bad because that job isgreat and we, you, it was healthcare.
It's helping people.
Sure.
And the people who did it and werebought in, like they felt they
were helping people and they were.
For me, helping people looks differentand it's often hurting somebody

(01:37:50):
else to protect the innocent.
Sure.
So I don't wanna disparage that.
Like I understand why people dothat, but it just wasn't my calling.
Were you raised with this idea ofa sense, I know that you talked
military, but was it like this serviceto your country, service to others?
What?
Was there anything like that?
Or was it just like, Hey, this is, youknow, do whatever you want, kind of thing?
Yes.
That was a great question, man.

(01:38:10):
Thinking back on my dad, that probably isone of the more defining characteristics
of what he placed on me and my momto some degree of helping others.
I mean, my dad has a silver star anddistinguished flying cross in Vietnam
because, uh, he was in a moment, verymuch like we were soldiers once Yeah.
Taking these guys into hot LZs.

(01:38:32):
Yeah.
And several pilots in his unit refusedto go into this lz and he went in
multiple times, um, knowing he coulddie easily, like hosing blood out of
the back of the Huey kind of a thing.
Um, because he just felt thatwas his responsibility Sure.
To these guys on the ground.
So I, I remember hearing that story andhe had this mantra of like, never quit.

(01:38:52):
You can't quit.
His dad, he never knew his dad.
His mom passed awaywhen he was in college.
So he just had a much harderupbringing and there was almost a,
uh, disdain for profit in his world.
It was like, no, you work forthe government, you do this
altruistic mission, you help people.
You take your pension,you're happy about it.

(01:39:13):
You fly economy class, you eat at shittyrestaurants, and that's how you live.
And that has just been ingrained in me.
Yeah.
For so long.
And my mom would take me to orphanages inAfrica and like help out on the weekends.
And I'd see these kids who had nothing.
You've been to these different placesin the world, you've seen it, and
you in the states, people are poor.

(01:39:35):
This was like another level of poverty.
And it was terrible.
And you, you'd see kids on the streetin Pakistan whose parents had broken
bones when they were young, so theycould beg for more money later on.
So they both instilled a little bit ofthat in me, that there was probably this,
like, I need to help people later on.
And if you're profiting whiledoing it, you're doing it wrong.

(01:39:56):
There's a feeling of that, I think.
Yeah.
I, I, I chat with a lot of guys thatfeel this, this, there is nothing that
I can convey to somebody who does not.
It's, it's almost, we, we,we pray to a different altar.
It, when you, when you becomeindoctrinated into this belief
system of serving others or serving,you know, your country, I cannot,

(01:40:19):
someone cannot talk sense into me.
Like if the, I know that there's beensome, you know, recent developments,
you know, people have asked me in myown family, like, well, would when
you're retired, would you go back?
Yes.
Unequivocally.
Why?
I'm not saying it's right.
I'm not saying it'swrong, but I would rather.
I know that I'm good at this.
Yeah.
And I would rather that you and I go anddo this thing than some poor schlep that

(01:40:40):
doesn't have any experience in this thing.
Right.
Totally agree.
There was a reconnaissance, uh,officer that, uh, passed away
and he said, if not me, then who?
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Travis Manion was his name.
And it, and it's very, there'sa, a hall at, uh, the basic
school in, in Quantico, Virginia.
That's, that's named after him becausehe died overseas in one of his.
Again, the mantra was like, just send us.

(01:41:01):
Um, and I think that that's really, um,it's a really, it's a really specific
demographic of people and I think that,and it's also okay to not be that way.
Yeah.
Like, like that's Yep.
It, we there is not, I don'tthink that you walk around.
Well, I know because I know you that youdon't walk around with this error of like,
I have done this, and so you are lessthan, it's like, no, I did this because

(01:41:22):
I didn't know any other way not to be.
Yeah.
That's exactly right.
That's fascinating.
Okay, so the conversation to stepinto the clandestine services with
Val and two children at the time,you get your first assignment.
Right.
And are you allowed to talkabout your first assignment?
No.
That's so cool.
That is just so cool.
Um, uh, so it was Pocatello, Idaho.

(01:41:42):
Yeah.
No, no.
It was deep.
Deep cover.
Yeah.
No.
Okay.
Well, that's fantastic.
Um, did you, was this anaccompanied mission or was
this an unaccompanied mission?
It was, it was accompaniedand I guess this.
Uh, yes, it was accompanied.
I talked to my parents thatlike, you don't tell many
people when you join the agency.
They encourage you to tell a few people.

(01:42:03):
What do you tell people?
Like you work a blockbuster.
Yeah, well even that I can't reallytalk about what I can tell people.
Oh, and is what we did.
This is the coolestinterview of my entire life.
I know.
This is great.
Yeah.
A lot of info here.
But I will say what was scary is we satmy parents down, Val and I, and I was
like, Hey, I gotta tell you something.
And my mom goes, you joined theCIA And I was like, oh my God.

(01:42:26):
Yes.
Like I had never talkedabout it with her, ever.
You know, just thatintuition mothers have.
Yeah.
Um, and we went to, so anaccompanied post that was very nice.
And my parents were disappointed'cause we were going to a nice place.
So my parents had served in Brazil,Zimbabwe, Angola, during a civil

(01:42:46):
war twice in South Africa, Pakistan.
And it's common knowledge withinthe foreign service and agency,
the smaller, harder posts.
Or where you find the best communities.
So my parents live in Florida,literally across the street from
friends they met in Pakistan.
Wow.
And a 10 minute drive from another set offolks from Pakistan because you, there's

(01:43:09):
nothing else there except for that.
So we were in a very nice place wherethere's a lot of other things to do.
So the community, the American Embassycommunity is huge and not as tight.
Um, so that changes things a little bit.
And I took a lot of heat from guys inmy class when we got our assignments
because I was going to a very nice place.

(01:43:30):
And typically right out of the gate,you want to go to a tough place.
Sure.
For a lot of reasons.
And it's very good for your careerin the agency to go to tough
places because there's not a lotof things to do in tough places.
And so if you're an American, a lotof people want to hang out with you.
You often have alcohol.
Other people can't get and access to dothings that other people can't, which
is important when you're a case officer.

(01:43:52):
So we go to this nice place.
I didn't feel that need to go do ahard place because I had been deployed.
Okay.
Not everybody had been okay.
And you know, my wife graciouslyfollowed me into this other path of pain.
The military's not easy on families andspouses, as you know, and anybody who
has served, um, the agency isn't either.

(01:44:13):
It's very unforgiving.
So.
I happily took this assignment.
It was great.
We had a great time.
And again, this like pull for havingto do something tough came up and I
wanted to go do a war zone tour next.
We were offered three of the greatestplaces as our next assignment on the
planet, and I turned 'em all down to,we got Cayman Islands, Bora Bora, right?

(01:44:36):
So good.
And I was like, no, I'm gonnago do an unaccompanied tour.
And actually, the reason I say thatis that's where the podcast came
from, because this is my, in mysecond deployment, but training in
the agency, you're gone for a longtime, TD wise, to different places.
Like I had missed at the endof that deployment, four years

(01:44:57):
of my kids and my wife's life.
So all the first steps and events andanniversaries, like completely gone
for four years out of their lives.
And I, and so I was on my own again,I'm, I'm in this, this war zone and
I'm just thinking to myself, like, Idon't think, and I'm older now, right?

(01:45:18):
I've got three kids, one ofwhom was born on one of like,
probably the most challengingpart of our training at the farm.
And I had like a day and a halfto spend with him and he's in the
nicu and I'm like, see you, hun.
I'm out.
And you know, somehow Val stayed with me.
But we're we're just, I'm in thisdeployment and I'm like, I don't know.

(01:45:41):
If people in America understand thatthis is what it's like when you're gone
this often and what it does to families.
And I hadn't deployed many timeslike you had, but I've been
gone enough to appreciate it.
And this is 20 16, 20 17,where podcasts are picking up.
Mm-hmm.
And there were a few that I listenedto, this one in particular that had a

(01:46:01):
huge influence on me is Tim Ferriss.
And he had interviewedJocko early, early, early.
And his interview with Jocko's hilarious.
But I heard this and I was like, ohmy God, I would love, you know, I
don't know what I'm gonna do next.
And this is another point where wehad already decided we're getting out.
Like this has been tough on the family.
I got a few more years left, but inthe end I'm getting out and it, and

(01:46:24):
I was like, what am I gonna do ifI could sit down and talk to people
like this and share their stories sosomeone understood what it was like,
the actual pain that goes into it.
Not the movies, but like all this timewhere you're alone and you're missing
all these events and you're almostdying and you're watching friends die.
That's what I want to do.
And so I had heard this guy's podcastand I was like, I'm just gonna do this.

(01:46:48):
And I asked the agency if I was allowedto, and they said yes, as long as you
don't air any of yours until you're out.
So I conducted my first threeinterviews in person, knowing I could
never release 'em until I was done.
So I did those in 2017 and didn'trelease 'em until 20 20, 20 21 really?
Okay.
That's fa that's fascinating.
So you finished your time with the agency.

(01:47:10):
You've decided because of TimFerriss, that was your one of,
he was one of your inspirations.
I felt like I could do this.
I hear him talking to peopleand sharing these stories.
You actually, you know, he often didn'tdo military, like Jocko was a one-off.
Okay.
But just like how deephe would go with people.
Like you could appreciate kindof, uh, you know, see people
at, kind of at their core.

(01:47:31):
Yeah.
I, I think that you're right.
I don't, I don't think thatthat's what's kind of, um.
Compelled me or kind of, you know,what, what does, what defines is why
I want, like, why I was open to thisis I think there's so much is I don't
think that people join the militaryfor a parking spot at Home Depot.
Right.
You know, like, I'm not, that's not why.

(01:47:52):
Yeah.
You know, men and women do that.
You know, that I think that thereis this greater call to service.
I personally believe, and I'm notgonna soap box too much, but I
think that there is a, um, uh, aprimacy that we as a society should
put on, on serving one another.
I think that self-serving is,uh, uh, uh, eventually leads

(01:48:13):
to, to really no good end.
Um, I think that that'sreally huge that you did that.
And I think it's incredibly both braveand irresponsible that you would leave
the CIA to then say, you know, what I'mgonna do is I'm gonna start a podcast.
Right.
And then also not beable to release those.
Right.
I think that, like, whatwas that first interview?
Like when you set up how, because the,you know, for anyone that's watching

(01:48:37):
you know, this long into the podcastis that the setup that Ryan has handed
me is, is professional beyond belief.
Uh, he has his two sons that have helped,you know, establish everything here.
We have lighting and soundsand microphones, and he's been
whiz, banging through all thiskind of stuff to make it work.
What was your first one like?
Yeah, great question.
So, uh.

(01:48:58):
This is also much like aviationtrial and error, you know, as we've
gone through problems here andthere and things that didn't work.
So it's been refined over five years.
The first one was just like Iwas meeting an asset in the CIA
and a lot of this is like that.
So you're like cheating.
You already have all the answers.
But it was even better becauseI was meeting another former CIA

(01:49:18):
officer Elliot Ackerman, who's amarine well established author.
Um, I've interviewed him a couple times.
I love that guy.
And we met in uh, where in DCto accommodate wherever he was.
I was like, I'll come wherever you are.
I was in Northern Virginia.
We met there.
I had rented a hotel room.

(01:49:40):
I had gotten, uh, what do we usedto call snacks and things, but we
had a name for it at the agencythat I'm drawing a blank on.
Like poey bait or No, itwas, uh, yeah, I don't know.
So, but I had it all set, likeliterally like I was doing this
meeting, I got all the drinks.
Oh my gosh.
I had all, everything set up in advance.
We meet down in the lobby,shoot the shit for a second.

(01:50:00):
I take him upstairs and we're bothlaughing 'cause he was a paramilitary,
he was a marine, if you haven't listenedto his interviews, A great, um, marine
officer and then a paramilitary officer.
So he had done MARSOC as well and been atthe very tip of the spear at the agency.
And so we were just laughing like thisis like CO and an asset right here.
Did you guys just sit.

(01:50:21):
And like evade each other'squestions the entire time.
No, he was great.
He was so gracious.
But he had written quite a bit abouthis time in, in the Marine Corps,
about his first day in Fallujah.
Yep.
Extensively.
And so I don't think itwas hard for him to talk.
So it was a very good first interview.
I remember sending the email to him justoutside of our station in this war zone

(01:50:44):
and I was like, Hey, you don't know me.
I'm in this organization.
I didn't say the real organization,but he knew like, I want to
come back and interview you.
And he is like, sure.
I couldn't believe he said yes.
That's fantastic.
But there was like trains going by inthe background, like you could hear
and And I re-listened to that interviewbefore I released it three years later

(01:51:05):
because I was like, am I actuallygonna put this thing into the world?
And I had edited it all myself and as Iwas listening to it, my own interview,
I was like, this is super interesting.
Yes, I'm gonna release this thing.
That's fantastic.
And it was hard though.
It was hard to releasethose, as you can imagine.
And you know, we've talkedabout it's not hard anymore.
Like there are errors along theway, but truly the impact it can

(01:51:28):
have on other people to hear thisvets and non vets has been awesome.
And that's why I don't want it todie as I move on to something else
that I also think is important,which is why I'm so grateful you
took me up on that long ass email.
I really, yeah, I really appreciate that.
I think that, do you have any.
Um, I would ask this, uh, and I ask,uh, Sarah and I, when we have dinner,

(01:51:52):
we do what we call high low laugh.
Nice.
Um, and so it's how we kind of likegenerate conversation for the day.
Like, tell me your high about theday, tell me your low about the day,
and tell me your laugh about the day.
Interesting.
So I would ask you the same thingin, in this, in podcasting, not
career, not, you know mm-hmm.
CIA.
Right.
Uh, but in, in podcasting andmeeting over 200 vets, right.

(01:52:13):
Uh, what would you say wouldbe, you know, a brief snippet
of a high, a low and a laugh?
So the high was when ear, fairlyearly on first 20 episodes, we
interviewed Todd Polski, who one day,my goal is for you to go to Costa
Rica with him at Campsen Commando.
I accept this challenge.
Put the two of you togetherand have an interview.

(01:52:35):
I would like to be there forit, but I don't have to be.
Um, we interviewed him.
For people who haven't seen his interview,the guy is a legend, much like you, Marine
enlisted snip, but like a real legend.
Not like me.
Sniper Recon went to I thinkthe recon school twice, 'cause
once as an enlisted guy and theymade him go back as an officer.

(01:52:55):
Uh, interesting.
Said he loved ranger school 'causeall he got to do was patrol.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then was invited intoDelta Force for four years.
Yep.
Yep.
Probably doesn't happen to everybody.
And the most humble human being and nowruns a camp completely dedicated to peace,
which the guy's a warrior that said.

(01:53:16):
Not many people have his background.
When we released that episode,people in the comments were brutal.
They were like, this guy's, you know,stolen valor, total totally full of shit.
And I felt terrible, like, numberone, did I vet this guy correctly?
But you can tell talking tosomeone for two hours if they're
saying the right things, if theywere in the military, it's easy.

(01:53:39):
So I was like, no way.
And I taught, I reached outto him and he's like, I'll
give you my DD two 14, right?
The the proof.
And val, my wife, very correctly saidto me, she goes, just let the, let the
comments play out for a little bit.
And a few people then jumped in and theywere like, I serve with Todd in this unit.
I was in Iraq with Todd here.

(01:54:00):
I know he went to the unit.
Um, and these same trolls thenlater on, apologized for it.
No way self-corrected, which Icould not believe on the internet.
Yeah.
So I would say that's a high,that's huge for many reasons,
but just like maybe there is somegood in it that people can see.

(01:54:20):
And then I was so worried Ihad done something wrong, so
that would be a high, a low.
I interviewed a guy who was aninfantryman in the hundred first at the
Battle of the Bulge, Vincent Speranza.
Um, there is a beer.
That is effectively named aftera story of his in Normandy,

(01:54:40):
where they still love Americans.
Yeah.
Um, you can get a beer, an airbornebeer, and the cup that goes with it is a
small ceramic GI helmet, uh, in the army.
So I've got one at the house.
If you go and you travel to the rightplaces in Normandy, you'll see this.
Um, that thing was made after him becauseone of his, um, you know, comrades who

(01:55:02):
was injured needed water and he ran tothe nearest building during a firefight,
and the only thing they had was beer.
So he filled his helmet up with beer andtook it to his buddy and gave it to him.
Dude drank it.
And so Vincent, you canimagine this is four years ago.
He's old.
It was our 50th interview.
I remember.
It was a big deal for me or 50th, so,but he's an older guy at this time

(01:55:25):
and he passed away last year, sadly.
And the sound recordingon that was terrible.
Terrible.
So this is one of those things oflike teaching me how to do things
and I didn't interrupt him early andsay, let's stop and fix the sound.
And people couldn'treally hear the interview.
So it's this interview thatwas so important to me.

(01:55:46):
This guy was at the battle, like hewas digging a foxhole in the, in ice.
Oh.
You know, killing Nazis.
Tough as nails.
Yeah, right.
Toughest dude.
Like the picture of him is great.
He's got this a hundred first hat on anolder, you know, probably in his seventies
and like a fat cigar in his mouth.
It's like everything he wantsfrom this like 20-year-old

(01:56:07):
in the Battle of the Bulge.
And it really, like, it's still uponline, but the sound is terrible.
And so I felt like I hadmissed an opportunity there.
Yeah.
But he has been interviewed many times.
Mine is not the only one.
I just, for me it's a low understand,understand, and a, and a laugh.
I mean, I've had several laughs on this.
I mean, too quickly at the end ofevery interview, I ask everybody

(01:56:27):
what they carried with them.
The funniest one was, uh, DanTwo Dogs Hampton, who's an F 16
pilot, like an amazing pilot,great guy, instantly answered.
He carried his wife's panties inthis like patch in the, in this
little sleeve that you have onyour flight suit, her red panties.
And I was like, oh myGod, that is hard to beat.

(01:56:49):
And then, you know, anytime I've spentwith Shrek, which people, a lot of
people get onto combat story 'causethey find the interview with him.
Uh, John Shrek McPhee, great guy.
Um, he is.
Hilarious.
And we just had an interview wherewe drank too much and like my
camera fell over and I had displacedtogether later that it was really bad.
But yeah, that was slight low.

(01:57:11):
But also laugh.
So I have, I like that idea that youjust said the highs low and a laugh.
I'm gonna steal that.
Okay.
That's fantastic.
I'm, I'm really glad.
Uh, I actually have threefinal questions for you.
Um, my first question, uh,revolves around your own family.
So I know your sons, I've gottento know them over the couple
of years that we have, um, youknow, gotten to know each other.

(01:57:32):
Um, I'm actually going to thesame school as one of them.
Right.
We're co-eds together.
Um, one's doing a PhD. I'm doing aPhD. He's doing a PhD. I'm gonna, yeah.
Um, if one of your children came toyou and said, dad, I'm thinking about
joining the service, what would you say?
I would say yes, as long asit wasn't to make me happy and

(01:57:54):
they really wanted to do it.
Okay.
Um, Valerie would probablykill me and kill them, but it
is their decision in the end.
And it comes with baggage andchallenges and heartache and all the
things, you know, better than anyone.
Um, but it's, it's hard to beatthat feeling when you meet another
vet in the middle of nowhere andyou can just connect instantly.

(01:58:16):
Yeah.
Over some of these things.
And the experiences that, in myopinion, and I've mentioned this only
a couple times in the podcast, I thinkit might be the one thing money can't
buy, like Bezos can go into space.
Bezos is not going on a raid.
Yeah.
To go get an HVT.
Yeah.
Nobody's putting 'em in there.
Like, it's the one thing yougotta earn from the ground up.

(01:58:38):
And I don't think you can buy that.
And that is cool.
You can't do it later.
There's a certain time inyour life where you can do it.
You can go run a business and goto space later that you can't do.
No kidding.
Anytime.
Wow.
That's, that's pretty good.
It's earned, right?
Like, it's not, it's not bought.
It's earned.
That's huge.
That's huge.
My second question, uh, for you is,um, what advice would you have, uh,

(01:59:03):
for me to take over this podcast?
Anything that you'velearned along the way?
Um, you know, I, again, I'veexpressed my fears, uh, apprehension.
I would say with openingmyself up to the internet.
I'm relatively a minus writing a book.
I'm a private person.
Uh, forgive that.
Right.
Um, but I, I tend to, youknow, value my privacy mm-hmm.
And live my own life in that space.

(01:59:24):
Uh, but opening myself up to the internetis something that I'm pretty scared about.
Um, what advice would you have for myselfor any other, uh, aspiring podcasters?
I think for you in particular,it's to not be like Ryan.
'cause you have your ownpersonality, and that's part of
the reason I wanted you to do this.
Go on.

(01:59:44):
Yeah.
In those looks, the hair, butin, in particular for you.
I think, um, I mean, for me, Iwanted to help people and I, I am.
Positive we have.
And I know you're gonna helppeople in different ways that I
couldn't because of your background.
Like you've been through hard,hard moments that, which is why I

(02:00:07):
wanted you to write a book like oncein a generation type experiences.
And I hope that people hearthose and it makes 'em stick
around another day somehow.
And I'm certain it will, maybe on thisexact moment that's helped somebody.
But you've got things that you'vedone losing friends and going into

(02:00:29):
really tough doorways, literally andfiguratively, and, and had to experience
things Many people can't understand.
And I think it's gonna help people.
And so I hope you don't.
Leave that side of you becauseyou're worried about what a
couple trolls are gonna say.
That's my hope.
I appreciate that.
And that actually answered mythird question as far as what

(02:00:51):
you want the legacy, uh, to be.
And, and if I may, uh, for anyonelistening, uh, at this point, um, I
would really like if you can go in thecomments and you can thank Ryan, uh, for
somehow, somehow, oh my gosh, don't dothis, that how somehow he's affected you.
I got a phone call, um, a coupleof days ago from a gentleman,
and I won't give his name.

(02:01:11):
Um, he was a police officer, um, inupstate New York, um, who had seen
Ryan's podcast and had been strugglingwith, uh, a specific moment in his life.
And he had, he had seen Ryan's podcastin my interview on that and worked very
hard to find my contact informationand emailed me out of the blue.
If you have been impacted by Ryan's,uh, podcast combat story positively,

(02:01:36):
please reach out and say thank you.
Because Ryan, I have to say, you havechanged my life, fundamentally changed the
trajectory of my life, and I cannot thankyou from the bottom of my heart enough
that you would trust me to take this on.
Um, and then also I'll be workingthrough the comments as well.
If you have any ideas, um, thingsthat you would like us to cover, um,

(02:01:57):
any spaces that you would want usto be able to explore a little bit
more, we're very happy to hear that.
And if you're a troll, save your comments'cause we're not gonna read those.
I, I'm gonna say the other thingthat I. The other reason I really
wanted you is, um, it's importantfor me from a legacy perspective.
And legacy is funny.
I mean I've been doing it five years.
It's not um, the TonightShow by any means.

(02:02:18):
But I've always triedto keep it apolitical.
Like when we were fighting, nobody caredwhen I was about to do a danger closed
shot if I was a Republican or a Democrat.
Correct.
They just cared that I was competent.
And it's incredibly important I thinkfor people who have listened to this that
has never bled in to these discussions.
And it was important to me thatI never had to wake up at night

(02:02:40):
and worry that combat story wasgonna be associated with that.
And I know with you it's not.
Um, and I think people will besurprised if they look back on it.
All these interviews with all thepolitics and the toxicity in our
country, that has never come up.
Never.
And I'm very proud of that and Idon't wanna see that end, which is
why you're a great choice for this.

(02:03:01):
Um, and then lastly, I do want tomention I am not as a plug, but just
for people's understanding, I'm notshrinking back into, uh, my house.
Uh, the reason I'm doingthis handover is both.
I think AJ can take this places I can't,but I will still come back on 'cause
I enjoy our discussions and I actuallyjust like the high low laugh little

(02:03:24):
things you do in your life, like for usto talk about that might help people.
I like that 'cause I'll use that.
Um, but for me.
I'm starting something new that we'renow gonna call restricted handling
Rh for people who are in the knowfrom the, uh, Intel community, um,
which is all about internationalsecurity and trying to shine a light
on authoritarians around the world.

(02:03:45):
So if you think of the people who runRussia, China, Iran, North Korea, some
of the pretty bad places in Africa,some of the terrible things they do,
and the people they throw behind barsand the way they consolidate power.
And I completely appreciate the worldwe live in with social media and
all the great things that happen.
And there's a part of me that wantsto make sure that while I still have a

(02:04:09):
chance, and if I can do this to help thepeople who are under the thumb in these
countries, that I do that to some degree.
And while I can't go downrange anymore, I can do this.
And I don't want some of theseconflicts to end without.
Trying to do something for it.
So it'll be called restricted handling.
It'll have newsletters, probablysome type of podcast component.

(02:04:30):
Talking to former CIAofficers diplomats, my dad.
It's a way to connect with him as well.
And he is incredibly knowledgeableon all of these things.
Um, so it's not a perfect overlap withcombat story for the, the, uh, folks
who listen, but there'll be some.
Wow.
And so I'm so grateful thatyou're allowing me to do this
by taking this over constantly.

(02:04:51):
Impressive.
Ryan, thank you so much Yep.
For the trust.
Uh, thank you for the opportunity to sitwith you today and, uh, I look forward
to continuing this journey with you.
Uh, stay tuned.
We've got a couple of, uh, fun interviewscoming up with some colleagues that
I've spent some time in the dirt with.
Uh, we've got a J TAC coming up with oneof the only J Tacs that we've interviewed.
Mm-hmm.
That will be a confluence,both between Ryan and myself

(02:05:13):
as the aviation and the ground.
We have a force reconnaissance, uh,joints, uh, terminal air controller
being able to be interviewed next week.
So we look forward to beingable to publish that soon.
Thanks.
Thank you very much.
I appreciate it.

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Ryan Fugit - The Story Behind Combat Story

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ryan Fugit - The Story Behind Combat Story