SEAL Troop Commander | Tech Founder | Josh Thurman - Combat Story

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
It was like a slow motion,like hamster wheel.
The vehicle starts rolling over and,I mean, we're all just basically
rolling over in the back of this thing.
We're all just like, uh, in, in amess of bodies and gear and stuff.
But flip, flip, the red lenss onand there's water, uh, at our feet.
The vehicle's filling up withwater and, and we're trying to
get out, but we can't get out.

(00:21):
I just remember being like, this isjust gonna delay my death by 90 seconds.
And I, I just remember telling the guyslike, Hey, we've gotta get this door open.
Welcome to Combat Story.
I'm Ryan Fut and I serve war zone toursas an army attack helicopter pilot
and CIA officer over a 15 year career.
I'm fascinated by the experiencesof the elite in combat.

(00:41):
On this show, I interview some ofthe best to understand what combat
felt like on their front lines.
This is combat story.
On today's combat story, we sit down withformer Navy Seal Officer Josh Thurman,
who spent over 12 years serving inthe SEAL teams, including at the elite
level over the course of 11 deployments.
In the post nine 11 era, Josh ledhigh stakes special operations

(01:01):
missions and nearly lost his life.
On countless occasions, Josh Homosnever joined the military and instead
thought of becoming a religious leader,which we talk about in this episode.
He would of course go on to thenlead some of the most lethal and
intelligent veterans on the planet,on successful counter-terrorism
and hostage rescue missions.
After his military service, Joshtransitioned to the tech industry
in 2023, co-founding Angel Q, an AIcompany to protect and prioritize the

(01:25):
wellbeing of children in the digital age.
With that, please enjoy thisdiscussion with Josh Thurman.
Josh, thanks again for taking thetime to share your story with us.
Yeah, thanks for having me, Ryan.
So for those who are listening andcan't see, I just wanted to give
them, uh, an idea of where you're at.
So you're in an office justoutside of Nashville, you said, and

(01:46):
you've got this very interestingpainting hanging on the wall.
Uh, so I thought this wouldbe a good jumping off point.
Yeah.
What does that mean to you?
And then kind of what is this office for?
Yeah, so this is our Angel Q Office.
So Angel Q is a companywhere I'm a co-founder.
We're, we're using AI to builda, a safer internet for kids.
So I'm, I'm in our spaces here and, and.

(02:07):
The painting behind me.
Um, it's, it's sort of like a, a grimreaper, but, uh, the, the significance is,
you know, basically to seize every day.
We're not, we're not guaranteedany day beyond today.
And, and just also to remember,uh, to never be complacent.
Things can be going, going, going greatand then, and then can totally change.
So change, so life is hard and,uh, as long as you keep that

(02:29):
perspective, you'll probably be okay.
If, if you think otherwise,then, uh, you're probably, you're
probably gonna be in trouble.
So, so that's, that's the, the, the devilis just a day away, you know, so, so
always, always, uh, live for each moment.
So that's what it's about.
Was that.
One idea that came up overone of your many deployments?
Was this like growing up?

(02:50):
No.
So this, this getsinto, that's all my dad.
So my dad is this, uh, amazing person.
Someone I, uh, am close friendswith and, and look up to.
And, and that's just somethingthat like, he's always lived by.
He, he came from very, very humblebeginnings and as he pitches there
talks about it, it's, you know, butfor the grace of God, there go I, um,
and just how, how so many things, pathsin life happen where, uh, there's a

(03:13):
lot of luck and providence that, thathelp us, uh, get to where we are and,
and never to take that for granted.
Very cool.
Very cool.
Um, and you can't believe everythingyou read online, but did I, did I
hear this correctly that there was a,an equal chance that you, if you did
not go into the teams, you could havebeen a man of the cloth, as they say?
Yeah.
No.
That, that is true.

(03:34):
So I, when I graduated college, a, anumber of kind of things converged,
uh, one I'd gotten into, um.
A, uh, a pretty serious bike accident.
Uh, my senior year at college, justriding home from campus and I got hit by
a car, uh, broke my hip and broke my hand.
So my last semester of college,I'm, I'm in a wheelchair, you know,

(03:56):
reeling around and then crutches,you know, getting around campus that,
that's sort of, I, I was on the path.
I, I, I had done a, a, apre-med, uh, I was a chemistry
major, had done those pieces.
Um, had even applied to some med schoolsand, and when that happened, plus, you
know, that was, so this is 2003, you know,nine 11 had happened obviously in 2001,

(04:17):
the rec war kicking off, and I just felt,started to be more called to being a part
of present history and wanting to serve.
And so that, when that accident happened,it sort of just reset everything for me.
And, and that's when I started sort of.
Moving more towardsconsidering other options.
And so when I got out, I justdid a, I just started working in
construction as a, as a really, likea holding period as I'm trying to sort

(04:39):
through all this in my mind a bit.
It's a bit of a, you know, you mighthear this from many military even team
guys, but there's a little bit of likea DHD of like, there's all these things.
How do you get it down to like something,what is the thing you're gonna do?
And so I considered getting my MBAI,I ended up not, I, I cut that one
pretty early and then I applied andgot accepted to Yale Divinity School,

(05:01):
uh, region and Vanderbilt and I, atthe same time I applied for the seals.
And so at the end of the day, the,the service related aspect of the
seals and it, and it also beingsomething that I, I couldn't do later
in my life, that was the bigger draw.
And, you know, you try to just, thoseare hard decisions and I, I always
try to sit back and, you know, trustyour deepest knowing in those things.

(05:21):
And so, um, I felt like, youknow, I call it like sort of like
the Moses burning bush moment.
Like when I really wouldreally listen to that.
Part of me, I would, I wouldget even emotional about,
um, the opportunity to serve.
And so that's how I knew I wasgetting called in that direction.
So, so that's how I, I decided to, togo down the seal, seal route and, um,
extremely grateful that I chose that routeand, and that, uh, I, I really only have

(05:46):
extremely positive things to say aboutthe, the community and, and the career
and, and, uh, that part of my life.
That's amazing.
Um, was, was it a prettyreligious upbringing in that case?
Josh like to have even had thatinclination to go that direction?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was, you know, so I,I'm in Franklin, Tennessee.
We're in the, we're in theBible battle, so it's certainly

(06:07):
highly culturally relevant.
You know, I, I'm a child of likethe eighties and nineties, so for
people who remember that timeline,you know, I can just remember and,
and I grew up in a small town.
My, my grandfather owned like thefilling station in town and like a,
what we have here is like a meat, meat.
If, if you've in the south there's likemeat and threes, he owned a meat and

(06:27):
three and like a barbecue one stop.
And like I would, I would grow upand like eat all my meals there.
Um, like, I mean like five days a weekwe're going there and, uh, there, there's
very little health value in those.
And I'll just say if, if your kidsaren't eating well, it's okay.
They're gonna turn out because, uh, it wasfried chicken and, and my two sides, my
two veggies are jello and mac and cheese.

(06:47):
So.
I turned out, I feel like yougot some good genetics, Josh.
Yeah.
Yes, I was lucky.
But yeah, it was a great small town,great American experience, and,
uh, had, had a really loving, uh,father and mother who, you know,
poured into me and, and my sister.
I've got a younger sister aboutthree years younger than me.
And, you know, we went to churchevery Sunday, so we went to, uh,

(07:09):
Bethlehem, United Methodist Church.
And I feel really gratefulthough, for those experiences.
But, and it was, it waseven more than that.
My, my parents sent me to, there,there's a number of private schools in
the south, and so, uh, they sent me toa new one that had started called Christ
Presbyterian Academy in Nashville.
And, um, it, it was just a wonderfulenvironment, very loving and nurturing.
And, you know, I I, I can rememberin second grade in Ms. Pot's class,

(07:34):
you know, basically we were like,Hey, you know, do you want to
invite the Lord into your life?
And I, and I did right there.
And so, like, that's whenI became a Christian.
And, and that's been a, animportant part of my life.
And so that being said, so thatwas something, you know, I think.
I hadn't thought about going intoministry specifically, but like as I
got, you know, you know, you go throughcollege, you're like questioning the
meaning of life and certain things.

(07:54):
Um, I wanted to sort of seek deeplyand, and that was something that
I was very heavily considering.
And so, so that's how, that's howthat, that path almost happened.
One thing I love about the military andthe, the seals and the service aspect
is that, you know, we, I can, I canhardly think of times we talked about
spirituality or Christianity or religionin general, like in the military, but,

(08:18):
but the reality is when you're therewith your brothers, those are guys
who, you know, uh, you'll lay downyour lives for each other and that's,
that is the ultimate Christian value.
And so I love that aspect of, you know,living at, at that wi with guys like that.
And, um.
You know, walking the walk, I suppose.
So, so that's, that's something I loveabout the community and a little bit how,

(08:39):
how I got there and how my thinking on it.
Yeah.
Was, would anybody have beensurprised to see you as like a
12 to 15-year-old and know thatyou were gonna be a seal one day?
Like were you pretty reckless,uh, adventurous, that sort?
Yeah, I, I was, um, I was a littlebit mischievous, uh, and, and,
and reckless the number of ERvisits was, is, is pretty high.

(09:02):
Um, so, gosh, I had had a majorbike accident in seventh grade
and it fractured my skull andwas in the hospital for a while.
Uh, thankfully fully recovered from that.
Um, and then in, you know, goinginto high school, starting to have
that freedom and, and driving.

(09:22):
Man, I, I, I, I'm reallylucky, like I didn't hurt
myself or other people frankly.
'cause I was, I was justpushing the boundaries so much.
About a month after I got mylicense, I got a speeding ticket.
Me and my buddy were like, how quicklycan we make it to so-and-so's house?
I mean, this is like six weeksafter one goes my license.
I get nailed going 77 in a 45.

(09:42):
And my parents found, heard, heardthat they were just like, I mean, and
you're trying to like, you're tryingto justify it and like, it's 32 over.
It's like, it's not like, it'snot like you're going five or
10 over the, uh, the, like, the,the category of the like offense.
It was like intent to kill.
That was like the category on this ticket.
I'm like, man, so obviously I lost mydriving privileges for a while there.

(10:05):
But, uh, we would have like wars withthe girls in our class and like roll
each other's houses and things like that.
So I, we were, we were having a goodtime and, and pushing those boundaries.
They, it was, it was generally.
Pretty clean, fun.
But, uh, you know, ran, ran into,ran into the law a few times.
That's great.
And then I, I won't make all this aboutreligion, I promise you, but just Yeah.

(10:27):
Outta curiosity as you join up, um,clearly medical school, MBA divinity,
school seals, very different paths.
Mm-hmm.
Um, was there ever, uh, um, any hesitationfrom a religious standpoint joining
something like the teams, um, in the,in the special operations community?
I mean, it's Oh yeah.
Six, I think oh oh three to oh six.

(10:48):
Yeah.
Like wars in full swing.
You kind of know what you're getting into.
You know, I, I really didn't, I feltlike it was the, the reality is I was
getting him because the war was goingon, you know, I actually don't think
I would've felt that draw had, hadthere been, had it been peace time.
So for me it was this deep sense that.
I think of freedom as such an importantvalue, you know, is so amazing

(11:11):
about America and preserving that.
You know, I was thinking after nine11 happened, you know, you could, you
could imagine how it could have goneand you think about maybe terrorist
acts on our soil, more things like thatand impinging on everyone, you know,
people's freedom like with through,through fear and things like that.
And so to preserve that atthe highest level was, was

(11:31):
something very important to me.
And, you know, our, our ultimatefreedom is, is spiritual freedom, you
know, but in life we want to manifestas much as that as possible through,
through all the freedoms we enjoy, youknow, in this, in this great country.
And so protecting that justseemed, it, it, frankly, it
seemed in line with my faith.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Why, uh, why the teams, I mean, you're,you're in Franklin, Tennessee, not

(11:51):
too far from the hundred first, right?
Yeah.
That's like why, uh, why go Navy?
Why go to the teams?
I think I was recruited on theplayground, I mean, for the teams.
And I say that because you know, it, it isone of my first memories of, I didn't even
know what seals are and I'll back it up.
So, uh, my dad was in the army alittle bit in Vietnam, and my, both my

(12:13):
grandparents had served in World War ii.
And so I, I knew a little bitabout service and then someone very
important in my life, a, a mentor.
So my grandfather had served one ofmy grandfathers on my mom's side, uh,
served in North Africa, uh, and Oh wow.
In, uh, world War ii.
And one of his good friends, um,his name is, uh, coach Jimmy Gentry.

(12:37):
He is, he is a mentor of mine.
He, he was a PFC in the 42ndInfantry Rainbow Division and
fought in the Battle of the Bulge.
And so, and, and he, uh, and his unitliberated the docile concentration camp.
So, um.
He, this guy's a legend in our town.
We actually, last year, just, there's astatue in, in our downtown area for him.

(12:59):
And, you know, after he got back fromthe service, he dedicated his life to,
um, you know, basically supporting kidsthrough as a teacher and as a coach.
So he, he taught and coached for like60 something years in our county.
He would, in the summertime, he hadthis, he had like this 400 acre farm.
And, uh, he would run a, a, a farmcamp, and I would go to that camp.

(13:21):
And so he would, he would tell usall these stories about the war
and, and, and things like that.
So like, all of that like really planteda lot of seeds in me to want to serve.
And so then when nine 11 happened andthen the Iraq war kicked off, all those
things really like, came to fruition.
And that's, you know, amongst the,the things I had also mentioned.
That's what sort of droveme in that direction.
What a, what an amazing mentor to have.

(13:42):
Did I assume he's passed away, right?
Like, yeah, so he, he just passedaway in, uh, April of 20, um.
2022. Wow.
Yeah, he was 94.
And, uh, amazing, huge lives ofservice for, for our, obviously our
community, but not enough to, notenough to woo you into the open arms.
Lemme get back to the playground.
I, I'm, I'm bobbing and weaving.

(14:03):
So on the playground piece.
So I mean, I can remember like, youknow, you hit that, it's like, yeah,
well a Navy Seal can do this, right?
And you're like, you don'teven know what that means, but
you're like, who's a Navy Seal?
Like, they sound like these badass guysand, uh, you know, you can fill in X,
Y, Z, they can hold their breath forfour minutes, bench 300 pounds, you
know, run two miles in 11 minutes, um,you know, swim freezing cold water.

(14:26):
And like, it had, it had this like, legendkind of pull, and this is, this is kind
of embarrassing, but, um, I had seen thatunder Siege movie with Steven Segal and,
you know, he's the Navy Seal in there.
So, so that, that was, you know,it was, uh, it was a huge pull.
Um.
You know, these guys are the best.
And if you want to, I, I, my my thinkingwas if I wanna have the biggest impact

(14:48):
I can in the war, like, um, thatthat would be the place to do it.
And so, you know, in that period,after graduating from school and then,
um, and then applying, you know, I, Ialso, I read a couple of good books.
One was the Warrior Lead book byDick Couch, and, um, that goes
through class 2, 2 8, I believe.

(15:09):
And that was a really good one.
Um, and then another one that is lesswell known, um, it's an older sales name's
Chuck Farer, but he wrote Warrior Soul.
Anyways, it's always interesting, likethere's, uh, the silent professionalism
that, that, that we wanna, you know.
Hold ourselves to.
Um, but there's also gotta be apoint where people have to tell

(15:30):
their stories because it's howyou recruit the next generations.
And so, you know, coach Gentry recruitedme by telling me his war stories, you
know, and so I even, I spoke at a VeteransDay event last, last, this last year, and.
My message to all the veteransin the audience is like, Hey,
find a way to tell your story.
You know, because that's how,that's how people are, you

(15:51):
know, in the oral tradition,that's, it's extremely powerful.
And that's how, um, we're gonna recruitthe next generations to keep serving.
And so, um, I encourage people to tell it,get good at it, try to get comfortable.
'cause I think most of it is, I,I'm not very comfortable with it.
I think most people are not, but Ithink you, it's important, so, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, that's, that's part of it.
Yeah.
We'll jump into, into buds here injust a second, but when we talk about

(16:14):
Angel Q, is that your way of helpingkids, the way your kind of mentor had
helped kids, or did it come from whatyou observed when you were in service?
I know we'll get to this in time, but I'mjust curious before we go down that path.
Angel Q really comes out ofrecognizing what I think a
bad place our society is in.
And in terms of our relationship totechnology, you know, over the past 20

(16:37):
or so years, as, as software has sortof blown up, and now, now we have ai,
we have an internet and social mediamore specifically that, that I consider
to be a, a democracy killing force.
And, um, it's productizing.
All of us, we've had, you know,the best minds and techs, trillion
dollar companies, uh, the bestpsychologists who've created technology

(17:01):
that is, it is extremely addictive.
It, it has major negative effects, uh,negative effects in terms of splintering
our society and sort of unmooring usfrom each other and from ourselves.
And the people group who sufferedmost from that is, is our, is our,
is our kids and our young people.
And so, um, I think we can probablytalk maybe more in depth about that.

(17:22):
But, um, you know, at the end of theday we, we've got a mental health
crisis for our young people and there'sgotta be a technology alternative.
So that's, that's how we gotto Angel Q and, and that's.
Uh, you know, I mentioned our,our mission is to use the AI to
make the internet safe for kids.
And, and our vision is to, um, havetechnology that operates in the
service of people's wellbeing, whichis, which is really counter or right

(17:45):
now technology for the most part.
It, it exploits us.
You know, it, it it's an attentioneconomy where it takes your eyeballs,
tries to get you hooked up tothe machine and then sells it on
a shadowy market to advertisers.
There's really no care for how you doing,how, how you're doing, how your mental
health is or what's happening to society.
It's, it's, it's all about, uh, drivingmore attention and, and obviously profits.

(18:06):
And, we'll, we'll dig in moreon this as we, as we go along.
I just wanted to see before we jumpedinto you getting into combat and
everything, if, if the taking careof kids came from this mentor or
somewhere else, and it sounds like it'sgonna be something that on, on Earths
during your deployments or after.
I've got five kids and so my oldestis 10, so a lot of Angel Q is wanting

(18:28):
a better solution for them and.
And not sort of sending them intowhat I kind of consider being an
ambush in terms of, of technology.
So yeah, I've got three olderkids, so the youngest is 12, but.
We, we wrestle with this,so we'll, we'll get into it.
Let's, let's talk buds quickly.
One of the things I like, uh, Ilike to ask seals in particular is

(18:49):
what is the coldest you've been, wasit app buds or was it later on in
follow, on training or deployments?
Oh, that's a good question.
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And now back to this combat story.
I, uh, I think training,follow on training.
And I, I can remember we weredoing an SR and what is an sr?

(20:21):
Uh, sorry.
Uh, surveillance and reconnaissance.
Okay.
Yeah.
So, uh, SR Mission, and this is upin the mountains in Utah, and, um,
we, we were prepping for like anAfghanistan type type deployment.

(20:44):
So we go set up our hide site andwe're observing our target area.
And we're out there, Ithink for about three days.
So it's my turn to take, watch thishuge, like, rainstorm comes in.
So I, I get to my watch postwhere I'm gonna gonna sit up.
And it was one of those scenariosof like, didn't have like the best
gear on, but it was gonna be toodifficult to like go try to like reset.

(21:06):
And so just got dumped on forhours and then, and then it
dropped to below freezing.
And that was, that was an extremely,I think that was one of the
longest Lenton nights of my life.
Um, and so I'll say, but Buds is extreme.
You'll get extremely cold in buds.
There are, you know, the, in many casesthe, the, the parts of buds just might
not last as long as something, evenlike an SR mission, which might be,

(21:30):
um, I mean it's, it's an evolution.
So like, um.
Certainly hell week is, is days long, buta lot of things are, are not that long.
So, but yeah, for me that wasthat one, that one stands out.
I can think of another time we weregoing on a, this is also in Utah.
Uh, I guess we did a lot of cold training.
Bad memories in Utah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We were gonna do this offset footpatrol, but we, we needed to drive in

(21:51):
Humvees to the vehicle drop off point.
And so, you know, there weren't a lotof room inside the Humvees, so I'm
sitting in the back of it, and whenyou're patrolling you get warm, right?
And so I didn't, I didn't overlydress and um, uh, it basically got
really cold and we were driving 30, 40miles an hour and that sort of wind.
So when I got out I wasextremely cold, like to the bone.
And even though we walked 10 clicks,just never, just, never even warmed up.

(22:14):
So that was, that was another one.
And then, uh, buds it's almost, Imean, it's almost every day you're
in, in some sort of extreme cold, so.
Oh man.
Um, I didn't ask earlier, whydid you go the officer route?
Did you consider, did both,both directions, I'm sure,
pros and cons on either side.
Yeah, so for the officer route, youhave to apply for the billets and it's

(22:37):
a pretty, uh, fairly vigorous process.
And in, in, anyways, I use that tosome degree of, like, as I'm deciding,
like, should I go to divinity schoolor, or this, I thought, Hey, I'm
gonna apply for this through, throughthis process, and like if I get it,
I think that'll be kind of a sign.
So like that, that sort ofdrove me more in that direction.
And so that's what I did.

(22:57):
There was, I think, eightbillets for the year.
Uh, when I, when I applied actuallythe first round didn't get picked
up, and then I, I applied again.
I got picked up the next year.
But, but yeah, that, that was sortof what, what my thought process was.
And I, you know, I didn't know anyseals or otherwise, and I had been
to college, so it just, it sort ofseemed like the, the right thing or
the, the thing that seemed appropriate.

(23:19):
Looking back, I think I would'vemaybe rethought that, but I, I just
didn't know what I didn't know.
Yeah, of course.
Oh, that's interesting.
Okay.
So, so buds, any um, particularlearnings you took from that,
that you might still use today orthat just set you up for success?
Yeah, I think that's really the firstplace, you know, so you go through,

(23:42):
went through Officer Candidate'sschool, um, that's, that's only,
it's, it's about three months.
And, uh, and then, andthen you report to Buds.
You know, you end upbeing a boat crew leader.
And so it's, it's the firstplace you really have some
effective leadership opportunity.
And it's, it's prettynascent, but it's there.
And one of the things that I think is, ishelpful is you recognize, it's like, Hey,

(24:06):
I've, I've got a, I've got, you know, Igotta take care of this whole boat crew.
Like these are these, this is.
This is the group that'sbeen charged to me.
And so, um, if you can keep your mindlike off yourself, that is probably the
most effective method for getting throughbuds or anything extremely challenging.
And, uh, I actually think gettingput in a leadership role can, can

(24:27):
be helpful there because you'rejust, you're forced to do so.
That's super interesting.
Yeah, that's an interesting take on it.
Another thing I can, I can remember, like,we would, um, we would run, you know,
there's a lot of running in buds, um,and swimming, but a lot of running, so.
From the compound there in Coronado,which is on the west side of the,
the highway there, every meal you'dhave to run a mile to the chow

(24:51):
hall and then eat and run back.
So, but you know, we'd line up inranks outside the chow hall and you'd
go in one at a time, but like, um,all the officers wait to eat last.
And so a lot of it'ssymbolic at that point.
But it's, I think it's, it's veryimportant to recognize, it's like,
Hey, that you're there for service.
It's like, it's not about you.
And so that sort of mentality cancarry, it carries out certainly
through your time in the teams, butuh, also in life with, with your

(25:13):
family, with the job, with everything.
And so, you know, I, when I wasinterviewing to go in there was a
commander, I can't remember which Sealteam who who interviewed me, and he had
told me, I think I'd asked him like,you know, how, what's your approach?
Or, or you know, how do you, howdo you, should I think about this?
And he's like, Hey, you know, yourun everything through this lens,
like mission first, like men always.

(25:34):
And it's, it's super effective.
Like, uh, it simplifies everything and it.
It keeps the mission top of mind,but taking care of, taking care of
your guys, taking care of your peopleis always, it's always right there.
And that's something that'ssuper applicable across, you
know, all aspects of life.
Are you still able to use somethinglike that in private industry, Josh?

(25:54):
Yeah, I think so.
Um, you know, so, you know, wehave an, an important mission in
Angel Q, which is providing a saferalternative internet for kids.
And so we think about it in missionoriented terms of like, Hey, every
day our product isn't out there.
Um, there's all kinds of badthings that are happening to
kids on the internet every day.
And so, and, and that'ssomething that really drew me.

(26:17):
To, to, to want to be a part of thisis, you know, once you've had a mission
oriented focus, it's really hard to dosomething that's lacks a real drive to it.
And so, so yeah, I think it'sapplicable and, and, and you, and
you have to take care of your people.
You know, you can, you can drive'em so hard, but at the end of
the day, they're all, you know,it's people not hardware, right?
Like, you have to take care of themand make sure that they're doing well.

(26:38):
And, um, being, being effectivelysupported, um, and trying to do something
quite that's really quite difficult.
So, any, uh, any ways that youguys used to keep it light at buds
just to, to smile occasionally?
Oh yeah.
There's tons of shenanigansthat, that, that happen.
I mean.
In many ways, looking back,there's, there's a lot of,
there's a lot of fun times.
I just remember like some ofthe, like, you know, you, you

(26:59):
can read about Buds online, youcan see what the evolutions are.
You can, you can see the Discovery Channelvideos and you can get and read the books.
You can get a pretty good sense of it,like the thing that, you know, doesn't
come through any of that until youexperience this sort of, this we call
like extra buds, which is all the, allthe challenging things are like just
beat downs that happen for, you know,not meeting some sort of standard.

(27:20):
And, um, uh, we had this, Imean, he was a great instructor,
but he was just diabolical,like, you know, in first phase.
And, uh, he, we ended upbeing good friends later, but
like, looking like in the.

(28:05):
Military pipeline that is like that.
And so the, the reality is enlistedguys choose who gets through, but
they also choose who the officersare effectively because they're
putting 'em through the training.
And there, there is a phase officer,there's only one phase officer,
and then you have all the cadrewho's running the evolutions.
And so the LPO is, um, effectively likein charge of the day to day and, um.

(28:29):
And they're gonna make sure, I mean, thatthey're getting the best candidates, and
they will, they will do whatever theyneed to do to make sure that happens.
And so this guy, he's, he's, heis, he has this like nasally voice.
And one of the things he did to us,which is, so you, you have all these
inspections, one like helmet inspections,uniform inspections, knife inspections.
And so the way we would, uh, tryto gain that is have multiple

(28:54):
versions of these things and like,have them hidden somewhere else.
So like, if you do an inspection,something that might happen, if the
instructor doesn't like it, they mightsmash your helmet or, um, or dull up
your knife or any of these things.
And now you're gonna haveto spend hours to fix it.
So you would have like two orthree of these things so that you
could, you know, swap 'em out.
Well, you know, he fi he knows this,everyone knows this, this goes on, but,

(29:16):
uh, he got approval to do a. A, a vehicleinspection, which, you know, so you're
living in the barracks, but your vehicleis kind of like in theory off limits.
But he got, he got command approvalto do a vehicle inspection.
And so we're all doing in the leaningrest, doing pushups, getting wet in Sandy
for hours while one by one we're runningto the barracks, getting our car keys

(29:37):
going and opening the vehicle and likeletting the structures come through it.
Which, I mean, I think I had likeseven helmets, uh, in, in my trunk.
And like all those, Ididn't know people did this.
I've not heard that.
Yeah.
So all those were gone.
And so, um, yeah, I mean that, thatwas one of the diabolic things.
I mean, I, I can also remember, sowhen, so when our health, we were a

(29:58):
June class, which is a warmer timeand that's, that's typically good.
But there was this crazy, um,I think it's like the El Nino
effect, like in the Pacific.
And um, this extremely cold watercame in like in the low fifties.
Which is, you kind of expect that, butin the summer it can get warmer and
it had been like in the sixties andso it was a little bit warmer outside,

(30:18):
but the water had gotten extremelycold and like, I can remember this,
you know, hell week, I was like, Mr.
Thurman, it seems that Mother Naturehas taken a shit upon your hell week.
You know, that was his voice.
This like nasally voice.
You're just like, oh my gosh.
Yeah.
Oh, that's great.
I, I had a number of inter interactionswith this instructor and, uh, I think

(30:39):
the thing that got him, I, I was.
You have chores, you know, thatyou have to do to take care of
vehicles and things like that.
And so I remember driving thetruck on the grinder where you
do all your PT and he was there.
And like you, you try to, thegreatest possible extent, just
avoid instructors at all costs.
Like just be outta sight, outta mindunless you absolutely have to be there.
And uh, this was justsome, one of those things.

(31:00):
And, and I just remember giving himthis sort of like, this like gay wave
and like, and he, you know, and he juststarted, he, he couldn't help himself.
He started laughing.
And I think from that point on,we ended up being, you know, buds.
And then he was at, he was at theteams when I, when I went to my first
assignment, he was at that team.
Wow.
And it was crazy.
'cause he had been instructor, you werelike extremely wary of, and then now

(31:24):
on the other side of it, now, you know,uh, you, you're friends and working
together and, uh, he's just another guy.
Yeah.
Tremendous respect for this guy.
We're, we're still friends now.
That's great as you were,as you're getting outta bud.
S and I don't know if at any pointin your career, like, without
going into details, you know,you go to very elite levels here.
Is is the OCS route ever held against you?

(31:47):
It sounds like it's not, but isthere ever a, Hey, you didn't go
to Annapolis, you didn't do ROTC?
Yeah, I, I didn't, I didn't feel that.
Um, I, I think there is an earlydisadvantage, and it's not, it's
not like an institutional thing.
If so, you know, I had a re regularcollege experience and then did 12 weeks
of basically like a bootcamp that's runby Marine Corps drill instructors and,

(32:07):
and they do a fantastic job, but it's12 weeks and the guys coming outta the
academy, or even razi, have had four yearsof learning the system and the process.
And, and certainly for the guysoutta the academy, they're, they're
training together from day onetrying to get ready for buds.
Mm-hmm.
And obviously that hasa, a powerful effect.
And, um, and so, uh, it,it, frankly, it took me.

(32:33):
While, um, to sort of catch up to just,even just like basic knowledge of how
the military works and like, and notbeing just in, we called it, you know,
I would call incent 10 days incent,like even an instant for 10 days.
Um, like, you know, when you makejust really dumb mistakes and,
uh, it took, it took a littlewhile to like work through that.

(32:55):
And then later I, in some waysit, it, I think it OCS can be an
advantage because you might be sortof out, you think maybe a little bit
outside of some institutional norms.
Yeah, for sure.
There, there's pros and cons there.
Um, I was just recounting a story.
It's funny you say this, like, um,recounting a story to somebody a week
ago about one of the first times I gavea mission brief as a platoon leader,

(33:19):
and, you know, I've got pilots inparticular are older, typically, you
know, you got like these senior warrantofficers who've been flying as long as
I've been alive and I'm trying to tell'em what to do on this mission, and then
I kind of finish and everyone's like,all right, that was pretty bad, sir.
Here's what, you know, likevery humbling experience.
Yeah.
That's, did you have any, anymemories like that on your side?

(33:40):
Is it like that when you get to the teams?
Is somebody putting their armaround you and teaching you?
I would say there aremany humbling experiences.
I mean, you.
When you show up,you're, you're a new guy.
And that's very clearthat that's the case.
And, um, even though you've beenthrough training, now you have your
trident, you know, you're, you'vegotta work up with your team and prove

(34:03):
that you're, you're deployable andall these, all these skill areas with
guys who've been there and done that.
And so, um, there's alwayslike a new hurdle to cross.
And, and that's a big one.
And so I can remember we werein our troop, we had six total
officers, and I was the most junior.
And sometimes in training though,you'll, um, you know, the, the senior
guys will get some reps and thenit's like, hey, it's, hey, we want

(34:25):
you to get some opportunity here.
And uh, so I was running this troop leveldiving operation and all of a sudden this
dynamic change of like, oh, the new guy.
And then it is like, oh,you're kind of in charge.
And, and, and guys are just givingyou all kinds of shit for that, right?
And it's all, it's all, um, I. You know,uh, helpful actually, it's instructive,

(34:47):
but, um, they, they will let you know,um, when, when you're stepping outta lane
and, and what, what, what your place is.
So, geez, how, how long is it untilyou make it to, uh, your first
deployment from when you hit your unit?
For me, it was about a year, and thatwas, uh, typically it would be longer than
that, but I had, um, just the way I cameoutta bud s and the way the, the billets

(35:10):
shook out, I had missed a lot of, um,some, some of the opportunity where you
can go to schools and things like that.
And so we jumped right into ourworkup and, um, and you did, did a
full kind of platoon level workup.
And then you do something, do more of ateam level workup where you're try, where
you're integrating like the, the fullteam for operations for a period of time.

(35:32):
And then, and then you build up and,you know, uh, get your, effectively
your deployment qualifications andthen, and then roll out the door.
What, what role were you in whenyou deployed that first time?
Yeah, so I was in our platoon.
I was what's, what's called the thirdo, um, or officially the assistant
platoon commander, but I was thejunior of assistant platoon commander.

(35:54):
So, um, gee, it's, it's a, uh, the truthis it's a great place to be and because
you, you, you get to see and watch, learn,learn how everything operates, but you
don't have a ton of responsibility and youcan, you can op, you can be effectively
like a shooter, which is, which is reallywhat ev, you know, everyone wants to do.
Yeah.
So, um, so, so that, so thatwas a great opportunity.

(36:19):
You know, I got to, in training, you know,I carried a, um, mark 46, you know, one
of our automatic weapons, um, and got todo that, and that's, that's fantastic.
I spent a lot of time, you know, as the50 cal gunner, um, on the, on the top
and the turret on the Humvee, and, um.

(36:39):
And you get to, you know, do all the,all the mission sets and, and learn
those things and going through the closequarters combat stuff, uh, you can, you
can, you can just be a guy on the train.
So all that was extremely helpful,uh, learning opportunity that, that
paid huge dividends for me later.
And then you end up going toIraq, I think you said, right?
So this is your first, first deployment.

(37:00):
Yeah.
First pump was over to Iraq.
Can you remember the firsttime you go outside the wire?
I do.
I mean, so I remember flying inthere and we were out west, so
flew in there, got picked up.
Remember like some, some guys had alreadygotten there ahead of us and uh, I
remember we were driving down a routeroute that had been heavily idd and

(37:23):
lots of ambushes and things like that.
And we're, uh, you know, to counterthat, driving on the opposite
side of the road, driving athigh speeds and things like that.
And it was like, you know, we, uh,it was a pretty clean ride, but
it was like, okay, this is, we'rehere and this is the real deal.
I can also remember once we were onbase, just feeling for the first time,
like in my life, that like people onthe other side of this t wall, not,

(37:46):
not all the population per se, but likethere, um, there are people who want to
kill me and, and all, all my teammatesbeing that close to it was a, it's just
something you don't, don't experienceunless you deploy in the military.
And, um, you know, really like sortof soaking that in and taking that,
that that's sort of level of gravity.
What did you do at that point to kindof relax when you're not on an op?

(38:11):
Gosh, I, I don't rememberrelaxing too much.
Uh, but I mean, it's, it'san important part of it.
I, I think once you get in country,there's so many things you need to
sort of, like you have to absorb.
And so the first like couple of monthsreally are, you know, you're learning
your area of operations, you'relearning who the battle space owners,
particularly like as an officer.
Like you're handling those deconflictionand, and you're also learning, um.

(38:36):
Like we call 'em sig acts like,hey, where, where's, where
are people getting attacked?
Like where's all the action happening?
So like, there's a hugelevel of intel dumping.
And then, um, I will say, so, youknow, as an officer you're often,
um, mission planning and liketrying to get mission approval.
So like, um, if you're not operating,like almost every other waking

(38:57):
hour is like pursuing those things.
And so there were just like a ton ofreally long days where you, you just,
you know, we would be on a night cycle.
You might wake up at 11 or 12 work untilif we, if we didn't go out that night,
you work until about midnight or later,uh, exercising and then, you know,
going to bed for four or five hours andlike, you're just, you're just repeating

(39:18):
that cycle, um, over and over again.
So it, you know, once you like,can settle in just a little
bit in terms of like, okay.
I, I, I, I know the ao, I knowthe roles and responsibilities
very clearly and things like that.
You, we'd have like movie nights with theguys and, um, I, I wasn't much of a gamer,
but guys, but guys do game a little bit.
I.

(40:41):
Um, these different routes wherelike our folks are getting I'D
often, so in response to that,uh, we got a lot of these.
And so these v VHA vehicles very goodat like protecting from IEDs and they
have like four inches of glass inthe back and, uh, things like that.
But they're, they'reextraordinarily heavy.

(41:01):
I mean, it's like a, it's like asemi with these huge suspension
systems and things like that.
And so I, I can't even rememberlike, getting there and like
checking out the, because wehadn't seen these vehicles before.
We'd only trained with Humvees.
So we get there, we're checking 'emout, learning the comms, and like,
you know, I, I, I, I'm a little bitclaustrophobic, so I, I don't like being
in close, uh, in trapped spaces, right?

(41:22):
So I can remember sitting in theback of this thing and being like,
Hey, how do we get outta this thing?
In a, in a bad, in a, if we're ina bad spot and the, the doors are
so heavy, they're on a hydraulicsystem, and so you basically need
that pressure to like open 'em.
And other than that, there's just not,there's not a lot way, you can't, I
mean, it's hard to get outta this thing.
And, uh, you, you can't breakthe glass like you might in a

(41:43):
civilian vehicle or even a Humvee.
So we go on this op and we're drivingaround getting set for the target,
getting ready to, to dismount.
I was in the back of the vehicle, soyou have basically a vehicle driver,
vehicle commander up front, and thenall the, all the, all the boys, all
the troops in our gear in the back.
So I'm in the back, uh, we'regetting close to the target

(42:04):
and I remember feeling, it waslike we just sort of sunk down.
I get, there's like a feeling likethis on my side of the vehicle
and I was like, that was weird.
And you know, we didn't haveany belts on or anything.
And I can remember it was like aslow motion, like hamster wheel.
The vehicle starts rollingover and I mean, we're all
just basically like, you know.
Uh, rolling over in the back of thisthing and, um, so we, we get settled

(42:28):
and, you know, we're all just like in,in a mess of bodies and gear and stuff.
But flip, flip the red lenss onand there's water, uh, at our feet.
I remember looking, so wehad, um, but hes bottles.
It is a, you may fa heats bottles, likeit's a small, like, basically like scuba
thing, but these things were put in thevehicle in case, you know, you needed an

(42:49):
extra, uh, some extra breaths I guess.
And, uh, I mean, I can just rememberhaving this like, very intense
discussion of this thing, starting thevehicle's filling up with the water.
We're trying to get out,but we can't get out.
And so we're hitting out these heedsbottles and I get being like, there's
like 90 seconds of oxygen in those things.
Like, it's like, I justremember being like.

(43:11):
This is just gonna delaymy death by 90 seconds.
And I just remember telling the guyslike, Hey, we've gotta get this door open.
I mean, I can remember cranking this.
There's a hydraulic releaseand just cranking that thing.
And it got released, of course, wedidn't know this at the time, but
the, we'd rolled over it into acanal and this bridge had given away.
We rolled into it all of thedoors, but one were impacted in

(43:34):
mud, but which we didn't knowthat it's pitch black and whatnot.
And so, um, huge credit to, um, itwas, the vehicle commander at the
time is very, a very stubborn guy.
And, uh, meaning, and in thesense of he's just not gonna
quit on anything like most seals.
And, uh, he just kept pushing againsthis door once, you know, once the vehicle

(43:54):
got almost completely full of water,he was, he was like, Hey, I mean, we're
like, we're about chest deep in water.
And he is like, Hey, I'mgonna be able to get it open.
Just hold on.
And so he, he finally gets it open.
We breath hold, you know.
Out and basically swim out of this thing.
And, uh, everyone made it out, thankfully.
But, uh, it was, uh, it was a harrowingexperience, I'll say that much.

(44:15):
And, and our guys on the outside, theydidn't realize at first what it even have.
I think we were the lastvehicle in the, in the train.
And so, um, they keep going andthey're like, Hey, this vehicle's gone.
So they circle back andjust see wheels, wheels up.
Um, naturally they were very concernedand I mean, these vehicles are so heavy.
Like they were gonna try tolike, yank it out of the mud,

(44:36):
but it's like really unrealistic.
And then they, they were just beinglike very, they were obviously extremely
concerned and then they just saw all ourheads, like pop out, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and
just the, they had just this huge relief.
And so, and so we got through that andthen, and then we went and hit the target.
No.
And so Really?
Yeah, then we went.

(44:57):
When hit the target guys are sopping wet.
That, that is a greatthing about the sales.
You just, you roll with whatever comes andyou just, you don't get absorbed by it.
It's like, what's next?
Um, oh my gosh.
And, and just kept, kept pressingand then hit the target security.
I mean, part of it is, you know, you're ina pretty precarious position, uh, with a
down vehicle like that, and you don't wantto be a target of opportunity for anyone.

(45:18):
So securing the area and includingthe target building was important.
So that, uh, we, we did thatand then, and it's crazy.
It's like, how do you get thisheavy ass vehicle outta the mud?
Like in Iraq, I, I'll,I'll lend to the Marines.
They had this like insane,like I've never seen it before.
Tow truck for like, justfor these scenarios.

(45:39):
And they came out and, and we secured theperimeter and they, they like wrenched
this thing out and it's full of water andlike all our gear, like muddy and stuff.
But, uh, we got it all back and,and dermo that stuff and, and lived,
lived, lived to fight another day.
I'm sure you've had manyin your death experiences.
Uh.
Have you had a point where you kindof accepted that you might just not

(45:59):
make it out of, like, I gotta imaginewhen you're, you're in a confined
space and the water's filling up.
There's something in yourmind, maybe from a religious
standpoint, you don't go there.
But fortunately it, it, it never gotthere because it was just so, like,
we're just, you were like focusedon working, like doing something.
I think the.
If you get in those scenarios andyou're like, you, you feel like you
can't do anything, that's where Ithink your mind gets in a bad place.

(46:22):
But we're in a place where it'slike, Hey, we're all just gonna
keep, keep trying our efforts.
And, and, and thankfully obviously gotgot a way out there, I gotta imagine
there was a lot of trash talk andwhoever was the driver for that later
on was, yeah, this, this poor guy.
He was, he had, he hadjoined our deployment.
He wasn't a part of theplatoon, but he had finished.
So when you finish, um, when you get yourtri, sometimes you might get assigned to a

(46:43):
unit that's already over deploy overseas.
So, um, gets deployed and startsworking with us, but he hasn't
been through the full workup.
So he is, he's being integratedslowly into our unit.
Um, and he's driving and I,I, I know he felt terrible.
We were all just like, I mean, the truthis we didn't give him any, I mean, maybe
later we rode him a little bit, but itwas, we wanted to let him know that it
just, it absolutely wasn't his fault.

(47:04):
It was a shitty Iraqi road andan extremely heavy vehicle.
And, and that's, and that's unfortunately,uh, what had happened there.
Where does this come from,the idea for Angel Q?
Like, is it something thatyou see during the deployment?
Is it because you have, you have kidsnow, like why start something like this?
Yeah, so, so I got out of, uh, theNavy, uh, being a team guy in 2018.

(47:28):
I had a tremendous, uh, career, uh,11 deployments and just hit it as hard
as I possibly could that entire time.
And met my wife, uh, first met her in2011 and then we got married in, in 2014.
And, uh, and, and we wantedto have, um, a big family.
And so I. The, the optempo, uh, ofthat with trying to grow the family

(47:52):
was cre just frankly creating a lot oftension, uh, and, and was something that
pro probably just wasn't sustainable.
And so in 2018, we made the decisionto, to shift, uh, for me to get outta
the military, come back to whereat, grown up in Franklin, Tennessee.
And then it was really hard to leave.
'cause you've, you've built upa, a reputation, credibility,

(48:13):
years of experience.
But I, I think it was the rightthing to do and it wasn't so, um, my
dad's an entrepreneur and so like I.
I'd always wanted to run my own businessand, and saw opportunities there.
And it even goes back to like whatI was thinking about post-college.
And so getting into business was somethingthat, that I wanted to do while I was
in, I felt like there was, watchingthe tech boom, it felt like there was

(48:35):
a little FOMO going on of like, therecompanies are, are doing very well,
they're doing cool things out there andlike I'm in a completely separate silo
that really has, can't touch that at all.
And so I wanted to catch myself up inthat regard and, and really, uh, ended
up linking up with an old family friendwho, who had a background in tech and
we, we co-founded a, a DevOps enablementcompany to help software developers

(48:58):
with their, uh, test environments.
And that was something.
I actually had zero experience in doingand just like a, like a team guy jumping
out with a very small parachute andlike, and learning on the way down,
or I, I should say, learning from thefire hose, drinking from the fire hose.
Mm-hmm.
But I, I felt like it was somethingI needed to do because I, I didn't,
I didn't know how software worked.
I even, how like companieswere built, things like that.

(49:20):
And so, you know, you canlearn the most from doing.
And so, uh, got into that, uh, frankly,had several pivots and failures.
I. Not knowing a lot about what we weredoing and then, and then figuring it out,
pulling it, pulling something out of that.
And in that process that, that, thatlasted about four, four years or so.
And, and, and that company'sstill going, I'm just not part of

(49:40):
it on a, on a day-to-day basis.
But Tim, my co co-founder, youknow, it was, it was his brainchild
of, uh, and ai intermediateintermediated, uh, internet for kits.
And when he pitched it to me, I was, Iwas immediately sold in the sense that
I, I recognized what a deep societalproblem this was, and the opportunity to

(50:00):
do something about it was, was extremelycompelling from, from the mission aspect.
And so, so that's how I got to AngelQ. And um, you know, I talked a little
bit before, earlier in the podcastabout, you know, where we are as a
society, and I was sort of fertileground for that idea because I. When
I got out in 2018, I'd been in this,I'll call it like a military bubble.

(50:23):
You've got all the friends, you have amission, you have friends, have no need
for social media or anything like that.
And, and you're a little bit segregatedfrom what's going on in, in society.
I remember getting out feeling likethe world was like quite different
from the 12 years to when I was,uh, previously outta the military.
And it was strange, like, you have athousand connections online, but like, who

(50:45):
are you gonna call to like move a couch?
It was like, this is just strange.
So this is strange.
And like you go out in town and evenlike, you've got our kids and like, go the
parks and like everyone's on their phone.
And I never even, I neverhad a social media account.
I'm like, what is going on?
And obviously we're seeing likehuge, huge divisiveness like in our,
in, in politicization and, and howour government operates and, and so

(51:07):
like, the world has clearly changed.
I, I recognize there's like somepretty serious problems going on.
And so, you know, I I, I look atlike, I think big tech has been.
Hugely the driver of this.
We talked about, you know, thistechnology has been used to productize us.
Uh, it's very addictive and Imentioned that, you know, social
media's a democracy killing force.

(51:27):
You know, to have an effectivedemocracy, you need, uh, people that are
rational, people that are well-informed,they need shared experiences, and
they, you need people who are like,willing to do, uh, sacrifice for
something bigger than themselves.
And like social media attacks everyone of those things, you know, it
encourages irrational, reactive,unempathetic behavior, narcissism, like

(51:52):
sociopathy if, like, if you wanna dowell on these things, you know, there's
a, this guy, George McClean, wrote abook in the sixties about how media
sort of transformed societies, andthis is like back in the sixties, but.
His, his key insight was likethe medium is the message.
And so you s you can see how social media,like the world is adopting to get their

(52:14):
message out on social media and in doingso, is becoming increasingly like toxic.
And so, and, and that's theworld we, you know, live in now.
And, you know, big tech's been able toget away with, you know, an incredible,
uh, injuries against our society, uh,because they've been basically given
a blank check through, you know, toget into like the legal aspects of it.

(52:37):
Like they've had no liabilities forwhat happens on their platforms.
And so because they've had noliabilities, there's no limits.
When they get sued, nothing happensbecause they're under, uh, a carve
out from what what they use islike, uh, section, uh, two 30.
Two 30, yeah.
Right.
And so, so, you know, thi this iswhat we're, we've inherited, right?

(52:57):
And, and we look athow bad it is for kids.
You know, the a a lot of what I'mgonna talk about is from the social
psychologist, uh, Jonathan Ha, he's gotthis great book out, anxious Generation.
I highly recommend ifyou got kids, read that.
And then, uh, Jean tTwinge is another one.
She wrote the book, iGen, but.
Um, starting around 2012, which iswhen you've got iPhone, high speed

(53:19):
internet, social media goes mobile, andyou've got like a front facing camera,
like all those things collided towhere now most teenagers are spending
four, 4.8 hours is the average onthe social media, and there's total
screen time is like nine hours.
So virtually every waking hourthey're in this virtual world.
And in, in, in doing so, they have thesehuge opportunity costs of, they're not

(53:41):
socializing, they're not learning skills,they're not even doing their homework.
Um, and then the really bad aspectsof it is like, um, depression,
anxiety, uh, self self-harm.
All these numbers have skyrocketed.
So now if, if you have a daughter,um, there's basically a one in three
chance that, um, they'll be diagnosablewith depression in their teen years,

(54:03):
and that's up 250% from pre 2012.
And so I think about my 10-year-old who'sgetting ready to walk into that and, um.
It's, you know, if, if, if you're, ifyou got your kids, you're gonna walk
down the street and you're like, Hey,there's a one in three chance, they're
gonna ha you know, be seriously hurt.
In this case it would bea, a, a mental illness.

(54:23):
Those are not odd as oddsthat any of us can live with.
And so, and so, that's really why Ifeel so passionate about angel cues.
'cause of all the thingswe need to fix this.
You know, one, we need legislation, weneed people to be more educated about
what's going on, people doing that.
But there's gotta be a technical solutionthat, that, that takes care of kids.
Right.
And in terms of.

(54:45):
The relationship with technology interms of not trying to exploit them
and, and helping them, you know, thriveand grow and, and do all the things
that are, that are meaningful in life.
And so, so that's, that'swhat Angel Q is about.
And the product itself is a,it is this AI super browser.
When kids are using this, it's, it isan app you download from the app store.
They're engaging with ai and thatAI basically filters out all of

(55:09):
the bad things you don't want yourkid to see on the internet and
provides them the useful information.
And so what it really is,you know, if you're a parent,
like what are your options?
I don't want my kids going down thispath where they're getting addicted
tech technology and then alsowhere they're exposed to the world
and the world has access to them.
So I can basically like eliminatetechnology at the extreme that would

(55:29):
be like, we think about, like, thatwould be like an Amish kind of option.
Um, that's not a great option becauseyour kids need to be able to interact
with technology and you don't want themto lose influence with their peers.
And as they're growing up and,and, and have opportunities.
The other option is like yousort of hope for the best and
that's not a really good option.
So what Angel Q is doing is we'reproviding a. A third option where you

(55:53):
have a useful tool that can gatherinformation that is educational, it's even
fun and entertaining off the internet,and you're not exposing 'em to all the,
uh, really bad parts of the internet.
And so that, that's, that's where whatthe tool does and, you know, helps kids
be able to, to learn, to research, uh, tobe entertained and, and, uh, to develop

(56:14):
a healthy relationship with technology.
And it doesn't have a socialmedia component to it?
It's correct.
It's more browser based.
Yeah.
So I would think of it as this isthe first internet and probably the
only internet access your kid needs.
Probably from a like five to 12 later, weexpect to have a teen, a teen product that
will have a social media component to it.
And when I say social media component.

(56:35):
Something that will, um, help them manageit effectively without getting sucked in.
But, but the product today is,is, is a first internet for kids.
Um, they can talk with it, they canengage with it, it, it can do things
for them, meaning they can lookup images, they can learn about,
just about anything they want to.
Uh, we can even pull videossafely off things like YouTube

(56:56):
kids so they can watch those.
And it's all been designed,uh, with non-addictive quality.
So the videos don'tauto play, for example.
So when kids are done, they're like,oh, they're not getting flooded.
And that sort of dopamine hit, that's,that has obviously been built into to
YouTube and everything else out there.
Um, you've done hard things, Josh.
How, how hard has this beenlike starting a company?

(57:19):
It, it, it is quite hard.
I, I think it goes back to the very early.
Part of our conversationabout, you know, life is hard.
Like starting company's extremely hard.
You've gotta start with that baseline.
You know, I think coming from a militarybackground, you have to compete with some
of the very best in your, in your field.
And that is, that isquite challenging, right?
To, to be at Apache Pilot, tobe a seal, all these things.

(57:43):
But the institution itself is backedby the United States government.
Like that securityapparatus is not going away.
And when you're doing a startup,it's, it's just you and you're
a startup is an experiment.
Trying to prove it deservesto exist in the world.
And getting from that, you know,there's the book zero to One.
Getting to that one is, is extraordinarilydifficult 'cause it's, it's just, you

(58:05):
don't have tremendous resources andyou've got to demonstrate with, with
both a vision and then eventually areality that this is a valuable product.
And, you know, between hiring theteam, you know, pitching people,
getting it about, dealing with all the.
It's a tremendous amount ofenergy you've gotta pour into,
like developing a new product.
'cause it's, it doesn't come out justhow you want it the first time, right.

(58:27):
Not, not even like the 10th ora hundredth time and you just
keep grinding and refining.
And so all that takes atremendous amount of, of energy.
And, and that being said, I do, Ido, you know, I like doing new and
interesting things all the time.
And that's one thing that was greatabout the seals, like you're always
deploying somewhere else, doingeven different types of missions.
It was, it was a very dynamic environmentand that's what a startup is too.

(58:49):
So, so I I, in, in many ways it, Iwouldn't wanna be doing something else.
Um, 'cause I like that, thechallenge and the opportunity.
Awesome.
And now it's, it hasn't launched yet.
Are you able to say when it's launchingjust for people who are gonna listen to
this in the next, you know, couple weeks?
Yeah, so we'll be launching, um, at theend of March, so it'll be available and I,

(59:10):
I'll provide you with a special offer linkfor, for everyone who's listening and, uh,
they'll be able to download Angel, get a.
Get a six month discounted rate and, andbe able to, to use it with their kids.
Awesome.
Perfect.
Um, Josh, just two thingsbefore I let you go.
I always ask people, one is, when youwere downrange, was there anything that

(59:32):
you carried with you that somebody hadgiven you sentimental value, good luck,
charm that you just wanted on or nearby?
I, I didn't carry this with me 'cause itwas cumbersome, but, uh, this is something
really cool that my family did for me.
Someone on my dad's side of thefamily knitted a prayer quilt.
They knew this.
And then they had, uh, everymember, my family, you know,

(59:53):
laid hands on and prayed for me.
And, um, this is hilarious too.
This is a funny aspect.
So my grandmother at the time, shewas asking like how big my pack was,
you know, and I'm like, I, you know,grandma, it's, I don't, it's not like
World War II where we deploy withlike a pack, you know what I mean?
Like.
You go out on ops and youhave your gear, but I'm not
always like carrying this pack.

(01:00:13):
And what she was getting at was like,will this prayer blanket fit in your pack?
And it was just very sweet of herto be thinking of it like that.
And, uh, and so I, I, Iwould have that with me.
Obviously it didn't go out on ops,but, um, it, it was something that
was, that was close by and that's cool.
Yeah.
Love it.
And then last question I askeverybody, many years downrange for

(01:00:35):
you, I can't even imagine how many,uh, deployments you just mentioned.
Um, as you look back on thattime, would you do it again?
Yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
Without a doubt.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's been an incredibly form formativepart of my life and, uh, he is given
me tremendous confidence and, uh,a sense of purpose and, and great

(01:00:56):
friends and, um, yeah, absolutely.
I would do it again.
Love it.
Well, Josh, so people, we'll, we'll putthe, um, the info in the description
when you're ready for it so peoplecan find Angel Q. Anything else
you point 'em to, um, just for thecompany at this point, or you Sure.
Um, if there's anyone listeningwho's an an AI engineer or works at

(01:01:19):
a company doing things like that, weopen sourced what we call kid rails.
And, um, this is a,it's a training method.
It's an open framework for trainingmodels to be, uh, kids safe.
And so it's, it's something we did.
One, one is, uh, making AI safefor kids is, is a hard problem.
We want to get other peoplecontributing to that as well, but.

(01:01:43):
In, in order to not, you know, repeata lot of the state mistakes of the,
of the past with unsafe technology.
Uh, we want people to see how this ispossible to do, and, uh, and we even
put out a sample, uh, llama, uh, Ithink it's a 3 billion parameter model
with that, but if you look up kidrails, um, you'll be able to find it.
It's, it's also on hugging faceand GitHub, so anyone who's

(01:02:03):
interested in that or buildingkids products, you know, would love
contributions or to reach out on that.
Awesome.
Thanks so much, Josh.
Really appreciate the time.
Yeah.
Thank you Ryan.
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SEAL Troop Commander | Tech Founder | Josh Thurman

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}SEAL Troop Commander | Tech Founder | Josh Thurman